00:00:53.120So there's just so many receipts of just,
00:00:56.160not to mention the gulags of course of atrocities that so many people whose names we will never know
00:01:02.340have been forgotten and i'm like you know over my dead body is this going to be swept under
00:01:07.600the rug of history hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constant
00:01:23.000And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:01:28.520Our brilliant and returning guest today is a man of many skills and talents,
00:01:32.160but primarily he's an author, and his latest book is called White Pill.
00:01:35.820Michael Malice, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:01:37.640Thank you so much, guys. I'm very excited to be here.
00:01:40.120It's great to have you back on the show, man.
00:01:42.100You've written this book attempting to get people to think more positively about their own lives
00:01:47.960by highlighting all the horrible shit that happened in the 20th century,
00:01:51.920particularly in the country from which you and I both come. What was your thinking behind doing
00:01:56.520that? What I was shocked at, and I would love to hear your guys' feedback about this, is that
00:02:02.680the Cold War was the absolute primary foreign policy concern for both the UK and the US for
00:02:08.620several decades. And now it's been won so decisively that people have forgotten it even
00:02:13.880happened. The Soviet Union is almost this historical asterisk. I mean, there's many
00:02:18.360movies about world war ii in the states you know we talked about the civil war the revolutionary
00:02:22.480war but the fact that this was the complete utter victory over an indisputably evil empire
00:02:29.340is just kind of a shrug and it's just odd to me especially given what the people of eastern europe
00:02:35.360had to go through and many other countries of course had to go through for so long that their
00:02:39.280story is being swept under the rug especially when this is something that occurred within our
00:02:44.260lifetimes. So it's just very odd to me. And, you know, the more research, you know, as you said,
00:02:50.240I'm from there, the more research I did, the more I realized how poorly understood the atrocities of
00:02:54.820the Soviet Union are. Maybe perhaps there isn't a nice narrative like with World War II. And I'm
00:03:00.840like, all right, well, people need to know more about this. And I'm someone who tells stories.
00:03:04.440So I'm going to put a stop to that. And so I did. But particularly, I mean, we can talk about the
00:03:10.240Cold War and stuff, because that really is very interesting, particularly given what's going on
00:03:13.540now. But one of the interesting things to me was the approach you've taken, which is kind of
00:03:19.240similar to the approach I took in my book, An Immigrant's Love Letter to the West, again,
00:03:22.960trying to explain to people like things haven't always been the way they are and things in most
00:03:27.860parts of the rest of the world have not been anything like as comfortable as what we enjoyed
00:03:33.700and what we enjoy today. Why do you think that's such an important message right now?
00:03:39.160Well, I think for a personal level, you and I could both speak to that. This is what
00:03:43.500we went through. This is what our families went through. But something that really drives me crazy,
00:03:48.540and I don't know if this is the case in British politics, here in American politics, especially
00:03:52.720among conservatives, there's this idea that this is the end of the line. America's doomed.
00:04:00.020We're reaching levels of authoritarianism that should be considered impossible. And I'm like,
00:04:04.580guys, you have no idea what authoritarianism is. And frankly, despite having written the book on
00:04:11.460North Korea as well, I didn't really have a good idea of how authoritarianism works and how
00:04:16.560pervasive it is. In Prague, there's something called the Museum of Communism, which I sent
00:04:21.320my protege to visit because they have some really funny captions because it's not written in a
00:04:25.340respectful manner. It's very derisive about what the Prague people experienced. And that was the
00:04:30.760moment I realized that what we went through, our families went through, is the pervasiveness of it
00:04:35.060all. If in the States or the UK you hate Trump or Boris Johnson or woke ideology, you can turn it
00:04:41.020off listen to sports music read any book you want but there was nowhere else for them to go in these
00:04:46.260countries everything everything music sports the news the television program your friends had to
00:04:52.820be perceived through the filter of politics and what that does to a people psychologically is
00:04:57.860something i think for all of us it's very hard to wrap our heads around but it's very important
00:05:02.060to try to grapple what that reality is like michael do you think part of the problem is that
00:05:08.040we're simply not educated on the evils of communism so when people see communist heroes
00:05:13.800that are Che Guevara on a t-shirt they go oh that's a freedom fighter when actually if you
00:05:19.120scratch the surface the Cuban regime were pretty brutal to put it mildly I think and that's by
00:05:25.880design I'll put on my tinfoil hat for this because I think western media outlets and this is something
00:05:31.040I cover extensively in this book had so much blood on their hands and they ran so much interference
00:05:36.340not for communism as an ideology which we can understand okay someone has this worldview they're
00:05:40.780promoting it that so on and so forth but for literally stalin and and the atrocities and
00:05:45.260you know there's a great movie called mr jones about how gareth jones who'd been a british
00:05:49.680reporter uh got out of the train a few stops earlier and exposed what was going on in the
00:05:55.300holodomor with the starvation of the ukrainians and it wasn't just that this was being kept
00:06:00.740quiet by Western sources is that he was personally derided as, you know, a liar, someone who's kind
00:06:07.620of had these prejudices against the Soviet Union. So decade after decade, this wasn't just World
00:06:12.080War II where it's like, all right, we got to team up with Stalin to fight Hitler. We could wrap our
00:06:16.000heads around that argument. But even before that, you know, they were making so many excuses and
00:06:20.440not just excuses, but advocating for the idea that the Soviet Union is the nation of the future.
00:06:25.980And one of the cover girls on the book is Emma Goldman, you know, who is a violent anarchist
00:06:30.380who believed in bloody revolution in her own words she got deported to the ussr she fled with
00:06:36.120her partner in crime alexander berkman and very famously she was in london uh you know after they
00:06:42.080left and you know when she was giving a talk standing ovation right red emma's here you know
00:06:46.740she was the the og when it comes to you know red radicalism and she goes guys these this is not a
00:06:53.480nation for the workers what they're doing to these workers is things the czar would never think of
00:06:57.520And by the time she was done, you could hear a pin drop. And they were telling her who had just left, who had sat down with Lenin personally and said, this isn't what we're supposed to be for. We're supposed to be free speech for free speech and for the workers. They told her she didn't know what she was talking about.
00:07:11.360So that kind of idea of people in the West, these intellectuals, influencers from the comforts of their own home, feeling comfortable explaining to people who were there that they don't know what they're talking about, how things really are, is a trend that I think has continued to this day in very disturbing ways.
00:07:29.520and i completely agree with you michael so my mother is venezuelan and i had many people
00:07:36.040explain to me over the years why chavez was wonderful and uh my my cousins who had to
00:07:43.280flee from their lives from his regime were wrong and bigoted i have to ask you do you is there not
00:07:51.040i'm not joking at all is there not a part of you that when you hear this you're kind of
00:07:55.380feel the need for violence toward these people i'm not joking at all michael you can literally
00:08:04.380feel my piss boiling whenever they talk to me but it came to the point in my own life where i
00:08:10.300realized that talking with these people it wasn't going to lead to anything because they had their
00:08:15.020own way of looking they had their own way of thinking and when venezuela inevitably collapsed
00:08:19.660and we have 96 percent of the population living in poverty they've all moved on to the next course
00:08:24.760and the reason that socialism didn't flourish is because it wasn't allowed to flourish it's the
00:08:29.640same old narrative yeah but it's it's not just the narrative which we could all wrap our heads
00:08:34.000around it's that oh you don't know what you're talking about and i do and it's like because i
00:08:38.680read i don't know what newspaper would be equivalent there but i read the new york times i read the
00:08:41.980washington post therefore i'm an informed citizen it's just unconscionable uh and and again there
00:08:47.180case after case of, you know, authors, vice presidents, and reporters who went to these
00:08:53.240places and feel comfortable pontificating to their lessors about what things are really like over
00:08:59.140there. Well, wasn't there this, is it Durante, the New York Times journalist who got, he got a
00:09:04.660Pulitzer for basically covering up all the atrocities that were happening in the Soviet
00:09:09.060Union? Technically, he got the Pulitzer earlier, because he also got an interview with Stalin. So
00:09:13.740that wasn't why he got the pulitzer but the headline was russians not starving merely hungry
00:09:19.700or something to that effect i i i i get why you laugh but it's like these are millions of people
00:09:27.500who are starved to death intentionally and and the thing that's really scary he said oh there's
00:09:33.360there's no famine nor is there likely to be and then he says the russians are merely tightening
00:09:38.140their belts well you know why you tighten your belt because you don't have food that i mean it's
00:09:42.880not a fashion statement. They're not doing the treadmill. And the way the, which I didn't even
00:09:47.860realize how the Holodomor worked, you know, they want to requisition all the grain. They wanted to
00:09:52.160break the kulaks. So they would go to your home in the middle of the night. And if you weren't
00:09:56.720gaunt, if you weren't losing weight, they knew you were hiding food. Your own body would betray
00:10:03.180you. It was the law that you had to starve. And when Gareth Jones, the reporter, went to these
00:10:09.040villages, they all told them the same thing. We're doomed. There's no food coming. And it's
00:10:14.980really kind of something that's been swept under the rug historically. And thankfully,
00:10:20.540I could discuss a little bit more in this book. Yeah, right. And we actually did an interview
00:10:25.220with a very good historian of the Soviet Union called Giles Udy. And in that, I talked about
00:10:30.020my own family. They were one of these so-called kulaks. And my grandmother's little brother
00:10:35.620starved to death because of what was happening so when we laugh we laugh because the line is
00:10:40.900ridiculous but of course he's a terrible tragedy uh there's no one would would underplay that
00:10:46.120i gotta say well i gotta be pedantic it's not a tragedy this was done but you know this wasn't
00:10:51.300some for you know some hurricane or you know like some typhoon this was an atrocity
00:10:56.140yeah it's it's a very good point michael but as well you know the the journalists who went against
00:11:03.760a grain even very famous left-leaning journalists like Malcolm Muggeridge I mean it didn't help
00:11:09.800their careers did it no he talks I thought yeah they you know when he when you go against the
00:11:16.440kind of uh narrative that your industry is putting forward um you know they asked Malcolm
00:11:22.200Muggeridge years later because he was a hardcore lefty I think his dad was in the Fabians uh so
00:11:26.440he had the pedigree and they asked him well what happened to you as a result of exposing this
00:11:31.700because he used a diplomatic satchel to get the information out of the Soviet Union. He goes,
00:11:35.840oh, me? I couldn't get work. So the fact that their depravity and malfeasance was exposed by
00:11:41.900one of their own, they knew to seek retribution. And that's certainly the case nowadays when people
00:11:47.460in certain industries step out of line their techniques to make sure that that doesn't happen
00:11:53.200twice. And Michael, what do you make of the situation now where in the West quite often
00:11:59.140people, and look, there's some evidence that societies have become more, you referred to
00:12:04.500earlier, more authoritarian. And people go, oh, this is just like, you know, this is almost like
00:12:09.260a digital gulag. And, you know, this is Soviet. How do you feel about people doing that?
00:12:14.740Yeah. When Mike Bloomberg was mayor of New York City, and he had a ban on how big the sodas you
00:12:19.960can get at 7-Eleven was, and Mike Huckabee, who was governor of Arkansas at the time, his daughter
00:12:24.280just became Arkansas governor, said, this is like North Korea. And I'm like, I assure you,
00:12:29.720the size of the soda is not the issue in North Korea. So I think these glib hand wavings are
00:12:37.800things that I find uncomfortable. And again, this is one of the reasons I wrote this is because
00:12:42.980people think authoritarianism is just like, okay, you have to go to school and they teach you
00:12:48.380stupid things and you can't speak out about politics and everything else is fine. And if
00:12:53.420that was the extent of it i'm kind of almost fine with that right we're talking about living from
00:13:00.100morning to night in constant fear and at night you're waiting for the doorbell to ring when you
00:13:04.520don't know who's going to turn who against each other and the techniques that the soviet union
00:13:09.960used to make sure people broke which i did you know discuss extensively in this book were very
00:13:16.260clever i mean they they were very smart about how because people sit here think okay there's nothing
00:13:22.120you can do to me that's going to make me kind of, you know, spill or sign a confession I didn't sign.
00:13:28.060Well, you have children, don't you? So when you have this kind of collective guilt and when human
00:13:32.500life and human rights don't exist, you know, very quickly, no matter how tough you are, let's get
00:13:37.520your kid in front of you and see what you're going to confess to. You had Jews confessing
00:13:41.400and plotting with Hitler, you know, since before Hitler was in power, it was just absolute madness.
00:13:46.780Yeah. Well, this was, and again, it doesn't even have to be as extreme as like, we're going to
00:13:51.360kill your child. I mean, I talk about this in my book. My grandfather said some things about the
00:13:57.060Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And within a very short period of time, him and his wife lost their
00:14:02.880jobs and both their children were kicked out of university. Right. So this collective punishment
00:14:07.500system, and this is in the 80s. So the period you were talking about earlier, it would have been
00:14:12.020way worse. And of course, you had a system if you were married to an enemy of the people,
00:14:17.560quote-unquote that was a crime it was a crime to be related to somebody who's an enemy of the
00:14:23.320people it gets much worse than that because here's what happens you're uh you're arrested
00:14:29.240constantin right then your wife is arrested for being an enemy of the people what's she going to
00:14:33.800do she can't really plead innocent but right away your kids are now orphans overnight now the thing
00:14:39.480is what happens to these kids no this happened to gorbachev when he was a kid because one of his
00:14:44.760grandfathers was arrested. And in his words, his house became a plague house. Now, none of the
00:14:50.000other kids are going to play with that kid. The teachers are going to make it a point to distance
00:14:53.920from that kid. In fact, there's a story in the book where, you know, one girl who overnight
00:14:59.180became an orphan because her parents were vanished. She had a family friend. They took her in. But he
00:15:03.840went to someone high up in, I believe it was Moscow or St. Petersburg and said, what do we do
00:15:07.980about this kid? And it's like, look, do you want to be associating with a daughter of the enemy
00:15:12.660of the people, because that makes it look like you're conspiring with them. So they had to put
00:15:17.120her on the street. So there was hand wringing in the Kremlin, because all these kids are
00:15:22.120understandably killing themselves now, because not only the orphans, like no one will talk to
00:15:26.580them or associate with them. So again, no matter how bad we all think it can get, there's more
00:15:33.060layers to hell in this, you know, evil place. I love shopping for new jackets and boots this
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00:16:01.660up at rakuten.ca that's r-a-k-u-t-e-n.ca and what it shows as well is that the understanding
00:16:11.920that people have in the west of these issues they can't possibly comprehend because in a way
00:16:16.960michael to give them their due unless you've experienced it unless you've heard the stories
00:16:22.520unless you've been around people who've experienced that it's impossible to to understand it just is
00:16:30.520the life of constant fear so one of my friends henry who grew up in venezuela and is venezuelan
00:16:38.260he came over to the uk and he went for a meal with my family my parents are now very old
00:16:43.800and henry was talking and my dad said to him henry you're going to need to speak louder
00:16:48.360i can't hear you and he said i'm sorry but in venezuela we're used to whispering
00:16:53.900oh yeah so you don't even notice you just adapt constantly and as a result i don't think that
00:17:03.600you can read about this but unless you experience it it's impossible to understand that's the tagline
00:17:10.400on the back of the book it's almost impossible to convey to a free people what it is like to
00:17:14.560live in a totalitarian dictatorship let me give you the closest parallel even i could feel was
00:17:19.880when I visited North Korea. And the thing is, if you think about your environment, right? You think
00:17:25.080about the wall behind you, the neon, your clothes, who you're talking to, the books in your room,
00:17:30.600the microphones, when every aspect is different and alien, that sum of that environment is
00:17:38.380something completely impossible to describe because like the difference for a fish between
00:17:43.380being in like in a river or being in a fish tank, it affects every single aspect of everything you
00:17:48.400do. And that kind of combination is so much bigger than some of its parts. And again, even having
00:17:54.420only spent one week in North Korea, it's almost impossible for me to just articulate what it's
00:17:59.740like to be in a country where there's no internet and no access to the outside world. I can kind of
00:18:04.320explain it. It's like being in a dream state where you're like kind of floating in this country that's
00:18:09.080devoid of attachment to anything outside itself. But to actually physically be there, to wake up
00:18:14.740and not know what day it is and not have it really matter because you don't have news every day is
00:18:20.280pretty much the same as the other other than the weekends we don't know what that's like and here's
00:18:25.140the other thing that i think for those of us you know the level of horrors they all knew they can't
00:18:31.360leave so you know there's many of these countries even war-torn countries right you know the blitz
00:18:36.860you knew this is going to end at some point right you knew this is you know tempo even covid this is
00:18:42.280not going to go on forever. They were told from birth, this is your reality and there's nowhere
00:18:48.880else to go. And don't even think about trying to get out of here. Because if you do, someone is
00:18:54.340going to turn you in and your family. Right. And this is one of the things that I think when people
00:19:00.580talk about this in the West, it's like the easiest thing, the easiest line to give people to get them
00:19:06.340to understand what those societies were like was those countries had borders to stop people getting
00:19:13.420out. I mean, that tells you enough, I think, about everything that was going on inside. We have
00:19:19.560borders. We argue all the time in the West. You know, we got to enforce the borders because people
00:19:23.560want to come in. Those countries had borders to prevent people leaving. And also, I talked
00:19:29.620extensively about the Berlin Wall in this book because this fell during my lifetime and I didn't
00:19:33.980really appreciate why this was such a big deal and what a kind of monument to obscenity the
00:19:40.100Berlin Wall was. The idea of encasing. There's this great line from a historian in the book
00:19:45.740where I go, it's kind of deranged. It's the only prison on earth where the people who are imprisoned
00:19:50.420are the ones who are free because they encased West Berlin entirely. But they called it the
00:19:56.020official term, the East German term, was the anti-fascist rampart. And it worked great. Not
00:20:01.260one fascist even tried so much as to get into East Berlin, but it's not just that you couldn't
00:20:06.160leave. They would also lie. You know, it's like, you wouldn't want to leave because on the far
00:20:11.760side of the Iron Curtain, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, the Klan runs everything and
00:20:16.260people are homeless and they're starving. We have it so great here. There's this great scene
00:20:20.980in the late eighties when Bortz Yeltsin, who was high up in the USSR at the time,
00:20:26.680went to houston to visit nasa and as a side trip he stopped into a supermarket the supermarket's
00:20:32.520still there and he's walking around and this isn't filled with dignitaries and senators these are
00:20:38.940like school teachers and truck drivers and they're the food he's seeing he'd never seen his life
00:20:44.240and he's flying back to uh the ussr via miami and on the plane he has his head in his hands
00:20:50.200and he's like they had to lie because otherwise people would understand how bad we have it so
00:20:56.720again it's not just that there's a narrative or they're twisting the truth there's no other way
00:21:03.120that like they knew how bad it was and they lied constantly 24 7 and frankly that cynicism toward
00:21:12.360the media was one of the things that broke down this totalitarian nightmare and michael that being
00:21:19.260the case does it worry you the cynicism that we have towards the media in our societies where we
00:21:24.180no longer trust the media it's the best thing ever these people are i mean it's it's it's very
00:21:30.780healthy when you're trying to construct a narrative based on lies when people don't believe what you
00:21:37.620say and there's this amazing story like the story of the prague the um velvet revolution in in prague
00:21:43.080in czechoslovakia is just just a beautiful heartwarming story and and people can look
00:21:48.760read about in the book but there was the the police started beating protesters men women and
00:21:54.200children just they wouldn't let them leave they're beating them near wencheslaus square
00:21:57.600and rumor went out and it was reported like voice of america and other outlets that there was a
00:22:02.340student i'm blanking his name was supposed christopher smith was killed by the cops and
00:22:06.660then the protests got bigger and there were two students by this name at the universities and
00:22:11.820the authorities like he's fine and they were and they brought out both of them from the cameras
00:22:15.320to go look look Christopher Smith is fine and they were telling the truth but after decades no
00:22:20.460one believed them they really thought that they killed this kid and the protests got bigger and
00:22:24.380bigger and a spoiler alert the entire government resigned and it was a peaceful transition that's
00:22:30.320why it's called the revolution to a liberal democracy which remains to this day so there
00:22:35.540are many stories where the cynicism towards those who lie and oppress their own for a living
00:22:41.240was the healthiest response. And Michael, let's say that there's a young kid watching this and
00:22:47.400by kid, I mean, somebody in their teens in college and, you know, they're, you know,
00:22:52.340they believe in communism and all the rest of it. What would you say to this kid
00:22:58.940who may be listening and may be open to being persuaded?
00:23:05.200Don't believe your teachers. This is where the poisoning starts, the universities.
00:23:10.180and i would tell them to i mean this is one of the reasons i wrote this book you know it's to
00:23:15.640explain what this was like what this really means in practice and you know there's this argument
00:23:20.880you guys are very familiar with i'm sure that this wasn't real communism real communism hasn't
00:23:26.200been tried it's like lenin and trotsky were true believers they were the kind of evangelists they
00:23:32.400were the prophets that all right we're going to not put anything get anything in our way
00:23:37.600we're not going to be weak we're not going to be middling this is our chance to kind of do
00:23:42.580full-bore communism and and they succeeded and what this book demonstrates and history demonstrates
00:23:48.620is what that actually means in practice and again it's not you don't take my word for it or
00:23:54.580someone some conservative it was emma goldman alexander berkman who were hardcore hardcore
00:24:00.340violent revolutionaries who saw it firsthand and they were the ones who uh kind of warned about it
00:24:06.180the west to completely deaf ears hey kk do you like spring cleaning no in my country men who
00:24:14.100were caught spring cleaning were executed and it was correct decision why cleaning weakens men to
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00:25:58.940And Michael, that's one of the reasons I'm excited about your book being out,
00:26:02.220because I see kind of in our space, whatever that space is,
00:26:07.040a lot of people have spent a lot of time focusing on what's gone wrong.
00:26:11.060You know, postmodern neo-Marxism or whatever it is, people go,
00:26:16.160OK, this has happened. This has happened. This is what's going wrong.
00:26:18.480This is what's going bad. This is what's not working.
00:26:20.360And like you said, it does lead a lot of people into a kind of dooms space in which they feel, you know, America's over, Britain's over, the West is tired.
00:26:30.060You know, we must embrace our new Russian overlords or whatever is the ending of that process.
00:26:36.420And that has caused, I think, now in me and in lots of other people now, I feel, a search for a positive vision of the future.
00:26:44.820People are starting to think about, OK, we've identified what the problems are with wokeness.
00:26:50.080So we've identified what the problems are with the two mainstream parties and the establishment, etc.
00:26:54.880The media are clearly lying to us a lot of the time, etc.
00:26:58.580Right. And your book is a OK, I mean, good.
00:27:01.880As we say in Russian, everything is understood in comparison.
00:27:05.820So the comparison is useful. Now what?
00:27:09.020Well, I'm glad I can speak to you guys about this specifically as opposed to Americans, because the British had this before.
00:27:16.1201979 the the british empire went from the sun never sets on the british empire because it
00:27:22.280spanned the globe to not having electricity you had they had like four hours a day of electricity
00:27:26.980the garbage in leicester square was two meters tall uh it was a given that the best days of
00:27:32.720great britain were behind her and that the country is kind of a historical joke at this point right
00:27:37.880it was called the sick man of europe yeah right and someone who is very controversial in in your
00:27:43.020country, namely Margaret Thatcher, said, I can't bear the idea of Britain in decline. Now, she's a
00:27:49.840very controversial figure, but you can't dispute that Great Britain in 2023 is in a far better
00:27:55.640place than Great Britain was in 1979. And the idea that Great Britain is kind of a joke and over,
00:28:02.380I don't think is something people say with any kind of credence anymore. So this is an example
00:28:07.160in your country in not that long ago where people were saying the same thing and with far more
00:28:13.800reason there was there seemed to be no mechanism to turn the ship around it's got to be managed
00:28:19.360decline uh you know we had our run pit bull chap and now it's just kind of we're slowly drifting
00:28:25.080toward the grave and that ship got turned so that's one example but the other example is again
00:28:31.180why do people ascribe the villains of the day to be omnipotent and omniscient you know one of the
00:28:39.840points that i make in this book and that i constantly talk about is the enemy class is
00:28:44.920not full of impressive people these are rishi whatever his name is i don't pronounce his last
00:28:49.680name and sarkir these aren't gods you know these aren't these amazing figures and you know i sure
00:28:56.280wouldn't want to go up against them in an argument. Like, are you crazy? You know, so when
00:29:00.980you have this idea that, you know, the people who are opposed to liberty and freedom and human
00:29:05.320dignity are unstoppable, when you look at who these people are, they're far closer to snakes
00:29:11.600than to gods. And I'm not saying at all that they wouldn't do the worst atrocities possible. That's
00:29:18.060part of the point of the book. But the point being, they don't always get their way. Why are you
00:29:23.380allowing them to lie to you and say we're always going to win because that's all they do is lie
00:29:29.580at some point i'm going to get what i want or at the very least there's the possibility
00:29:34.820and as long as there as there is the possibility of victory people have to fight for it yeah and
00:29:42.000one of the things that you are highly critical or i would say things or world views is cynicism
00:29:49.320you hate a cynic don't you michael explain to me why i think it's the worst i don't i don't want
00:29:55.460to say worst okay but it's really one of the most like kind of unconscionable perspectives for
00:30:00.580people to have first of all it's this kind of like too cool for school everything sucks like
00:30:05.280it's true 90 of movies suck 90 of comedians suck 90 of books suck possibly including my own
00:30:11.520but you're telling me no books are good no movies inspire you and change your life
00:30:16.560no conversation makes you a better person. No program makes you think about our world and our
00:30:22.780place in it. So when you're a cynic, you preemptively excuse yourself from achieving
00:30:28.140anything or hoping for anything because it's just like you hand wave it away. And it's an easy trap
00:30:32.860to fall into. I think it is very much perpetrated by the media because it allows people to just
00:30:39.060kind of, you're cool if you're a cynic, but if you have hope or optimism or anything is sunny,
00:30:43.820that's juvenile or illegitimate or kind of a joke and that's a very useful technique to encourage
00:30:50.540people to stop fighting for their values and to stop hoping for things better for themselves and
00:30:55.020their families and i think it's regardless of someone's politics if you're surrounded by this
00:31:00.360and i think this is a very constant you can speak to this also i'm sure it's a very russian
00:31:04.800perspective because i remember very vividly you know there's this show called russian dolls which
00:31:09.180was the version russian version of um oh man it was so good i remember the whole family sitting
00:31:14.220down to watch it i talk about it all the time because it was the first time you could see
00:31:18.620russian politicians being satirized and and made fun of and uh and it's never happened before or
00:31:25.720since really properly wait there might be a different show then here in the states it's
00:31:29.320our version of jersey shore with with a bunch of russians i was thinking about a different one in
00:31:35.420the 90s we had this show called uh hookley puppets it was called a spitting image anyway sorry but
00:31:41.420the point i brought it up is there was this scene where this girl she'd been struggling she she had
00:31:45.700like eight different majors she didn't know what to do she took an aptitude test and it said lawyer
00:31:50.880and she's like oh you know what i enjoyed my pre-law classes so she there's a scene she's
00:31:54.400down with her mom they're getting manicures or whatever she goes mom you know i finally figured
00:31:58.020out i want to be a lawyer first reaction how are you going to pay for it and she has this complete
00:32:02.080breakdown is just like why is it whenever i have something positive in my life your first reaction
00:32:07.920is to look for a flaw to look for a problem what people don't know how to pay for law school this
00:32:12.000isn't on and she just loses it and i could really relate to that because this kind of like always
00:32:17.520looking for the darkness always looking for the way out to give up is so pernicious whereas opposed
00:32:24.400to me and and the point of the book and just i think people should fight in general is there's
00:32:30.960the possibility that you're going to achieve your dreams and i gotta tell you i failed a lot in my
00:32:36.160life and i'm fine with it and i'm sure you guys have too because as long as i gave it a good
00:32:40.880college try and i don't always get what i want i feel happy and i can meet my maker knowing i did
00:32:46.080my best with what i had yeah well there's such such an important point and i think one of the
00:32:51.280reasons that these uh cynical narratives are so uh pernicious and so common is i don't know have
00:33:00.000have you ever heard of this experiment where like they put a rat in a cage with an electrified floor
00:33:05.440and as long and it gives us the rat an electric shock with a certain regularity and what they
00:33:11.740found was as if you put a button in the cage that the rat can turn off the electric shock the rat
00:33:16.440will carry on you know trying to stop the electric shocks but if there is no button and they can't
00:33:21.860control its environment then the rat just lies down and takes it basically and i think a lot of
00:33:27.580these responses that people are tempted to go into, they're a feeling of a lack of control.
00:33:33.320They're a feeling like there is these, and both left and right have a version of it. You know,
00:33:38.840to the left, it's systemic, whatever, it's structures of oppression, it's the patriarchy,
00:33:44.220it's whatever. And to the sort of more anti-woke right, there's Davos and Klaus Schwab is personally,
00:33:49.160you know, taking over their life or whatever it is. And it's a way of basically saying,
00:33:54.040i don't control anything i can have no impact i'm just going to sit here and be resigned and cynical
00:34:00.460yeah i i was on some conservative podcast they were talking about how joe biden is putting the
00:34:05.400last nail in the coffin in america i'm like we're one nail away from america being destroyed what
00:34:10.060does that even mean destroyed right and it's just and if you your perspective is that the
00:34:15.080biden administration in two years and 51 democratic senators can destroy america well it's a wrap
00:34:21.080and get out of this country because you hate america because to me it's just absurd that you
00:34:25.880know a country as prosperous as we are which certainly has problems let's let me not put
00:34:30.460sweet rolls on the rug but to say that we're two years away from absolute destruction to me is
00:34:35.440absolutely crazy to the point of being dishonest and it's also these narratives are highly addictive
00:34:41.880we all know and we're not going to mention any name certain channels that feed and fuel a doomsday
00:34:47.640narrative they get millions of views and a lot of the time everything's shit
00:34:54.300i should change the book title look how shit things can get and it's coming to america right
00:35:03.400now yeah exactly get your copy but they put out the same narrative again and again there doesn't
00:35:09.800seem to be very little variety in the output you look at it and even a cursory glance will make it
00:35:16.180Well, once you analyze it, you realize that a lot of these arguments don't have a lot of merit, yet people tune in.
00:35:25.480And the thing is, then they can say that they're being rational because they could open up any newspaper and find bad news and be like, look, look, I'm not being irrational.
00:35:34.180The newspaper validates my perspective.
00:35:36.220So it does become a self-fulfilling cycle.
00:35:38.980I think COVID certainly allowed people who are, you know, neurotic or anxious or depressed now to externalize their neurosis because now it's not calling from inside the house.
00:35:49.740It's the whole country or the whole world that's experiencing this.
00:35:52.620And how can you expect me to have any hope or vision of happiness?
00:35:55.380So I think it's a very useful technique if you want to conquer a people or a peoples to convince them that their victory over you is impossible.
00:36:05.900And then you don't have to fight because they could just go home, shrug their shoulders and be like, all right, you know, I can't win.
00:36:11.900I have no hope. The people I'm against are too powerful or been around too long or control too many institutions.
00:36:17.800And I'm just going to kind of, you know, watch sitcoms have a pint. And that's the end of that.
00:36:23.180And I think it's a very smart move on their part. But I really hope that the people listening to this don't fall into that trap. And you don't have to be this, you know, braveheart freedom fighter, but you can certainly be a better person tomorrow than you are today. We all have that power within us.
00:36:41.580Not everyone is going to be Joe Rogan, but we could still be successful podcasters, as an example. So when people put in that perspective, you have that kind of motivation to do something about the values that you hold.
00:36:54.280and also not all of those actions have to be public actions i think you know you went when
00:37:00.180you you not everyone's joe rogan and you could be a successful podcaster but you could also just
00:37:05.780have kids and raise them well or you could make a difference in the job that you do whatever that
00:37:11.320job is and and that in itself will not only make the world better it actually is going to make your
00:37:16.220life a hell of a lot better versus sitting there and listening to yet another three-hour conversation
00:37:21.100about how civil war is coming you know what i mean and it's also here's the other thing with
00:37:25.020cynicism it's very important for cynics to make sure everyone around them is cynical it's almost
00:37:29.960like a zombie apocalypse because as soon as you have one example that disproves your narrative
00:37:35.660that everything sucks and we're doomed your entire hypothesis falls apart so psychologically it is
00:37:41.600necessary for them when they are surrounded by people who are if not thriving at least going in
00:37:47.020that direction to pull the rug out from under them because otherwise they're going to have to do
00:37:51.080some dark looking in the mirror and they're not going to like what they find. So I very much
00:37:56.620caution people, if you're surrounded by this kind of negativity in your life, especially in
00:38:01.780casual friends, make sure that this person is more of a benefit than a cost to you because
00:38:07.700it really is very pernicious and sinister. Michael, do you think part of the problem as
00:38:13.600well is that people just buy into systems and paradigms way too much? So whatever the system
00:38:20.340may be like the college system they believe that you go to college you get your college degree and
00:38:25.000that your life when you leave will be sorted and well life doesn't work like that life doesn't
00:38:29.520happen like that just because you get a college degree doesn't mean you're going to get a great
00:38:32.880job whatever school you go to do you think that's part of the problem as well yes and i think it's
00:38:38.660by design and i think it starts in school because the whole point of school is to make people as
00:38:43.040homogenous as possible to break young spirits you don't want little boys running around you want
00:38:47.320them asking too many questions you want to look everyone's learning at the same rate as everybody
00:38:51.440else everyone is told that we all kind of basically think the same these are things that are completely
00:38:56.280untrue and it there's this winnowing effect where if you're kind of challenging the narrative that
00:39:01.640the teacher at the front of the room who's more often than not apologies to your audience uh if
00:39:05.860they get offended at this a mediocre person uh you are really kind of taught a very bad lesson
00:39:11.600very early on and i think this is intentional because i think schools i i'm pretty sure it's
00:39:16.440even worse in the UK than the United States, are there to design to teach kids not to think
00:39:21.340critically and not to challenge basic assumptions. You can only challenge within a context that is
00:39:26.720presented as you, you know, the equivalent of setting kids up for the Overton window.
00:39:31.000And I think it's very hard at a young age to kind of break out of that and not kind of be
00:39:36.140under that thumb. But it's something I think that's very, very necessary and that I personally
00:39:40.780had to do myself as well. Michael, moving on. Well, hold on a second. Are you not going to
00:39:45.680tell him you're a former teacher you do the 10 times in every other episode he slags off teachers
00:39:51.800you say nothing no come on stand up for yourself i'll back you up come on no i do i do agree i
00:39:58.480actually agree with you michael so in the uk what uh education has in fact become it's not it i would
00:40:05.440even say it's worse than that because education has actually become uh every school is now a
00:40:11.300factory for data harvesting yes it's not about teaching it's about factory it's a factory for
00:40:16.080data harvesting so that when the education minister of the day is questioned by his uh
00:40:21.800is one of his opponents they can then go well look the you know the grammar you know the kids
00:40:27.340are writing better by 22 are they actually writing better no not really you're just teaching them to
00:40:33.560pass the test which has little to no value and it's just basically justifying your job that's
00:40:39.540also the problem with education is that it's now a political football as well i would just like to
00:40:44.500say on behalf of everyone here at trigonometry we believe there's some very good teachers out there
00:40:48.380and we have tremendous respect for them and by no means are we suggesting that you're all terrible
00:40:52.180i didn't say all you just meant most it's not a game of russian roulette i'd want to play
00:40:58.740you're not a big fan of school michael i gather no not government schools especially i don't know
00:41:05.920how they are in the UK, but here in the United States, it's probably the only place that many
00:41:09.800people experience violence in their lifetimes. And this is kind of this idea that, you know,
00:41:14.920first of all, everyone learning at the same rate as everyone else is nonsensical.
00:41:19.500The point of schooling explicitly is to make good citizens. And what that means is people
00:41:24.920who are servile and obedient. I mean, it's a euphemism for a very pernicious goal to have
00:41:30.620everyone basically thinking the same things within narrow parameters. And that's how you get a
00:41:35.920powerful state. Michael, here's the thing. It's not also that. It's also to give you certain
00:41:42.180skills for you to be able to access education, the workforce. But I take your point. Do you
00:41:47.680sometimes not worry, though, Michael, and I have this myself, in that your experiences
00:41:52.960has led you to have such a deep distrust of authority that you worry you can go too far
00:42:01.060the other way no i'm an anarchist there's no too far i'm there i've told turn the dial up to 11.
00:42:10.320so you just think to yourself like because surely some we do need some form of government michael
00:42:17.120surely we do in order to make the road in order to make sure that you know the roads don't say
00:42:22.580the trains it's about where they run to yeah exactly but you know you know the roads work
00:42:28.400you know the water works whatever else do you not think that we need government for that
00:42:33.700without government how do we have water i mean my god no i don't think we need government for
00:42:39.220any of that and i think without government who's going to imprison us in our homes for weeks at a
00:42:43.100time for no reason my god it's it's unconscionable no i don't think i think first of all i don't like
00:42:48.340that term we need because that always means i want um and no i do not want government at all i
00:42:54.100There are, of course, organizations and mechanisms that are important that establish rules and regulations within their purview.
00:43:01.620But in the sense of a government, no, I think government's illegitimate.
00:43:06.440So how would society work without government?
00:43:09.660Society works. This is a kind of a sidebar, but society works despite government.
00:43:16.300Everything that works in society is done voluntarily by people.
00:43:20.400Adam Smith talked about this at great length, by people fighting for their values, working
00:43:24.620peacefully with everyone else. It's only when force is introduced into a relationship via
00:43:29.200private criminals, such as muggers, or public criminals, which are governments, that you have
00:43:33.720strife and other things like that. Well, I mean, if you remember, we talked about anarchism a lot
00:43:39.760in our last conversation, so people can go and check out the full conversation if they want.
00:43:44.260um michael so you i mean one of the things we talked about is the need for hope and the need
00:43:51.640for uh the belief that positive positive things are possible and i appreciate that in your
00:43:58.140conception positive change would be to get rid of government can i say one thing it's not just
00:44:02.720positive things are possible this whole book is demonstrating that positive things have happened
00:44:08.540So this isn't some Pollyanna thing about like, oh, hope for the best.
00:44:12.080We've seen great, extremely positive things happen within our lifetime, but they're not
00:44:17.820discussed because, as you guys mentioned, they don't fit this doomsday narrative.
00:44:38.260Another part of it is that the entity which previously was our enemy in the West, the Soviet Union, no longer exists.
00:44:46.760And so it was very easy to go, OK, well, that's done now. Let's not worry too much.
00:44:51.520But as we see in terms of what's happening in Ukraine now, you know, things don't it's not like that part of the world suddenly just disappeared or all became liberal, beautiful liberal democracies or whatever.
00:45:03.360And that legacy, I mean, that's what's happening in Ukraine now. It's continuing to run, isn't it?
00:45:07.700Oh, absolutely. So, you know, one of the points I make is that if someone is, you know, anarchists get accused of being utopians, utopias don't exist. But progress does. Things, great victories happen on a national, international and personal level all the time. And if we're going to be cynics, we're going to pretend that's not true. And it's just demonstrably false.
00:45:28.620like everyone listening to this has had great victories in their lives moments where things
00:45:33.620had been where your fears you know there's this kind of imagine going back in time 10 years ago
00:45:39.260and talking to yourself and remembering all those fears you had all those anxieties many of them
00:45:44.180never ended up happening and some of them did and you know what you were able to handle them you
00:45:47.780were strong enough so I think that kind of is very important to have in mind to realize and but the
00:45:53.960other thing is i i think we underestimate how much the media and the academia love war love
00:46:01.160bloodshed because the cold war and the fall of the soviet union was very largely a peaceful one
00:46:07.500you don't have this triumphalism that we storm normandy and all these boys lost their lives and
00:46:13.660of course i'm not you know kind of dismissing what their accomplishments was and those enormous
00:46:17.820sacrifices to be fair but that story is much more kind of easy to tell in terms of heroism
00:46:23.740then a bunch of people got together looked around and said this is not right and we're going to do
00:46:29.800something about and we're going to dismantle sometimes against our own will this enormous
00:46:34.400edifice that has been built up over the decades um so what about rocky four
00:46:38.340so so so touche so so you know that was one of the reasons i wrote this is because that narrative
00:46:49.320of the victory of good over evil is not something in popular consciousness, but I think it needs to
00:46:54.740be, especially as you said, Russia and Ukraine are still very much in the news today for obvious
00:46:59.740reasons. And do you think part of it as well, Michael, is nowadays, I almost feel like because
00:47:04.480of this slightly, you know, we do see the world through this sort of post-modernist everything
00:47:09.800is relative lens to some extent. Like you say, good and evil, most people couldn't even define
00:47:15.280what good and evil are anymore right well i don't know about anymore i think this has been a long
00:47:20.160time where this idea of good and evil was speaking to earlier is regarded simplistic or naive or
00:47:26.500juvenile or 1950s it's and this was you know the leading up to the last story of the book
00:47:33.300the idea was detente because the argument was okay look we tried to fight communism in north
00:47:38.780korea that was in the korean war that was a draw we tried to kind of uh cuba the cuban missile
00:47:44.160crisis. The Vietnam War was a disaster for the West. The rational, sane, informed person knows
00:47:51.540the Soviet Union isn't going anywhere. We have to make our peace with it. This is going to be a
00:47:56.960two-polar world for millennia. Star Trek had Chekhov because even in the far-flung future,
00:48:02.580it's going to be the Americans and the Russians. And Ronald Reagan, who became president and
00:48:07.400elected in 1980, sat down in the late 70s and he said to his colleague, he goes,
00:48:12.060do you want to hear my strategy for the cold war it's simple and some might say simplistic
00:48:16.040we win they lose and you know for him and and margaret thatcher with the home office when she
00:48:22.140or excuse me the foreign office when she was dealing with gorbachev they told her these
00:48:26.300changes are cosmetic they're not going anywhere you don't know what you're talking about you have
00:48:31.780to be realistic and realism means you have to accept that this is going to be two superpowers
00:48:37.280in perpetuity. And my favorite moment, well, not my favorite, up there, is when Lech Walesa,
00:48:43.820who was the head of Poland, was talking to Helmut Kohl, who was the head of West Germany.
00:48:48.280And Lech Walesa goes, you know, I don't think the Berlin Wall is going to be around for much longer.
00:48:52.840I mean, the way things are changing so quickly. And Helmut Kohl laughs in his face. And he goes,
00:48:59.240you're young. You don't understand how these things work. This is going to be a long process.
00:49:04.540it fell the next day and helmet call says i'm at the wrong party and got on a plane and got his
00:49:11.320ass out of warsaw so there's so many moments in this book when educated smart and cynical people
00:49:18.140are like you can't expect things to get better or if they are going to get better it's just kind of
00:49:23.260putting a bandage on a greater wound this disease is going to be eternal we've tried everything we
00:49:28.620had and nothing's going to change. And things happened gradually and then suddenly. That's so
00:49:34.560interesting because as you were speaking that I was thinking, kind of looking 10, 15 years into
00:49:39.040the future. And I don't think, you know, 5, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, anyone in the West would
00:49:45.480have really given half a shit about the leader of Russia dying, for example. Okay, well, they've got
00:49:50.440a new one called Boris again. Great. You know, who cares? Right. But now.
00:49:57.520That would be like a very significant moment. Right. And that is going to happen in the next
00:50:02.08010, 15 years, almost certainly. Or at least there will be a change of leadership for sure.
00:50:06.760So we're kind of going to a world in which things really are starting to matter again in a very
00:50:12.240bad way, but also in a very significant way. Well, yeah, I mean, I'm going to push back a
00:50:17.980little towards the late 70s, early 80s, you know, Reagan kept trying to have summits with the
00:50:23.440Soviet Union, but the leaders kept dying on him because there's one old man after another, you
00:50:27.920know, and he didn't really know what to do about it. And then when Gorbachev comes in, he was the
00:50:32.520first Soviet leader to be born after the creation in 1917 of what became the USSR. And this was a
00:50:39.320radical change in a direction that everyone listening to this, I believe, would very much
00:50:43.600be in favor of. So it certainly is the case that leadership does matter. And, you know,
00:50:47.540when Putin goes away, the next leader could be worse, most certainly, or it could be someone
00:50:52.100who's, you know, better or who knows even what those terms mean in this context. But yeah,
00:50:58.200it's interesting how forgotten this whole story was. And I think that's just completely
00:51:07.140and it's just what really bothers me isn't just necessarily the Cold War, because that's kind of
00:51:11.420high politics what's being forgotten is the oppression that these people went through the
00:51:17.860the secret police the show people were put on trial and forced to denounce their own families
00:51:23.880and admit to things that were literally impossible oh i met trotsky at this hotel even though the
00:51:28.580even though the hotel no longer had existed and then you had the reporters you know defending
00:51:33.120these trials there were so many signatories to these letters in the west saying we need to adopt
00:51:37.860the ways of Stalin, and they have free speech there, and you don't know what you're talking
00:51:41.520about because you're trapped by the bourgeoisie. So there's just so many receipts of, not to
00:51:48.340mention the gulags, of course, of atrocities that so many people whose names we will never know
00:51:53.000have been forgotten. And I'm like, you know, over my dead body, is this going to be swept
00:51:58.080under the rug of history? Michael, does the experiences of your family and the experiences
00:52:04.360of writing this book. Does it make you hypervigilant within your own country as to
00:52:09.160your own freedoms being eroded? I don't know, but it makes me hypervigilant about the nature of evil
00:52:16.680because Americans have this idea that evil is someone with weird facial hair banging the desk
00:52:23.540and foaming at the mouth. And what happens in these countries, and I'm sure you guys can speak
00:52:28.320this as well, is it's these little bureaucrats, these absolute mediocre people, just the bottom
00:52:35.760of the barrel who are put in positions of power simply because they're following the party line
00:52:41.240and they will do everything to maintain that power and lord it over you. It's the person when
00:52:48.140you want to go to the hospital and get medicine and he's the one guy standing between you and
00:52:52.420getting medication for your family and he's going to make you tap dance because this is his
00:52:57.380opportunity to feel like a big shot. The best example of this was Ceausescu, you know, who was
00:53:02.560the head of Romania. And in any other country, you know, if you take one look at this guy,
00:53:07.120the complete simpleton, he'd be some kind of mail clerk who'd be befuddled when the address says,
00:53:12.120you know, 73 Smith Avenue, but it's 73 Smith Street, and he wouldn't know what to do about it
00:53:16.960and just be kind of crapping his pants. But this guy was given absolute power and was praised,
00:53:22.780you know, from sunrise to sunset in this country. And what happened to the Ceausescus in Romania
00:53:28.500is, you know, one of my favorite stories in this book. Well, right. This is one of my favorite
00:53:34.540stories as well, because it kind of shows you the thing that you're talking about, which is
00:53:38.000things change quickly and they change suddenly because he formerly at least had a 90 something
00:53:43.860percent approval rating the day he was summarily executed, the day before he was summarily executed
00:53:50.140after being arrested. So, well, on that positive note, Michael, things can change quickly and
00:53:57.040suddenly and for the better. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. I hope everybody gets to read
00:54:01.700The White Poach. It's a great read. And before we let you go, and before we do our questions for
00:54:06.640our local supporters that they've already submitted, tell us, what is the one thing we're
00:54:10.740not talking about as a society that you think we really should be? The perniciousness of the
00:54:15.460universities and those who staff them. I think that is where the poisoning starts. And I'm very
00:54:22.000gladdened by, in America at least, it went from people thinking the fights in Washington and the
00:54:28.220government, and then they've shifted to the tactics of the corporate press. But behind them is the
00:54:33.860last leg of that stool, and that is the university system. And I'm very, very gladdened by this,
00:54:38.840because I think a university staff, professors of the intelligentsia are as a rule, not particularly
00:54:45.640impressive people and just nasty and just very small minded. And when we take the fight to them,
00:54:52.280I think that's when victory will be achieved. And I don't think they're going to be able to put up
00:54:55.600much of a fight at all because they've never had to defend themselves. Michael, thank you so much
00:55:01.540for coming on the show. If people want to get your book, if people want to find your other works
00:55:06.240online where is the best place to do that uh white pill book.com and i'm on twitter at michael
00:55:11.020malice and i apologize in advance for the crap of my social media output and malice.locals.com
00:55:17.100awesome michael thanks for coming on uh guys head on over to locals where we're going to ask your
00:55:21.700questions and you'll get to see the answers and only you'll get to see the answers if you support
00:55:25.700the show thanks for watching thanks for listening and we see you very soon another brilliant episode
00:55:29.860like this one or raw show all of them go out at 7 p.m uk time and for those of you who like your
00:55:34.940trigonometry on the go it's always available as a podcast take care and see you soon guys
00:55:39.660my version of national divorce is uh texas regains its sovereignty from the occupying
00:55:46.120regime in dc and everyone else can fuck off and do whatever they want