TRIGGERnometry - ＂Modern Feminism Involves Casual Man-Hating＂ - Meghan Murphy

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.420 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:09.760 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:15.460 Our brilliant and very fascinating guest today is Megan Murphy,

00:00:18.740 who's an independent journalist and writer and YouTuber now as well.

00:00:22.680 Megan, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:24.180 Hey, thanks for having me on.

00:00:26.300 It is a pleasure to have you on.

00:00:27.860 uh and listen for anyone who doesn't know who you are uh just tell everybody a little bit about

00:00:33.280 who are you how are you where you are and what is the journey that brings you here talking to us

00:00:38.960 uh i'm megan murphy as we've established um and uh i'm a writer and uh i've been running a website

00:00:47.840 called feminist current which is a feminist website since like 2012 so i've done like a lot

00:00:54.340 of writing around feminism. I've been podcasting for a long time. And as you mentioned, I recently

00:01:00.940 got some stuff going on my YouTube channel, mainly because I kind of wanted to explore

00:01:08.360 issues outside of feminism and talk to people that maybe were a little less like me,

00:01:16.860 talk to some people that I wasn't accustomed to speaking with in the past, which I've been

00:01:20.700 really enjoying trying to kind of branch out um i also do freelance work so i i or freelance

00:01:27.000 writing i should say for the um spectator and unheard mostly these days it's good to have a

00:01:33.700 fellow nazi in the conversation um yeah yeah fantastic uh but um one of the things that i

00:01:41.440 think brought you to prominence in many people's eyes and i imagine you'd be quite tired of talking

00:01:46.500 about it but you just so that people are aware you have been banned from twitter permanently

00:01:52.800 for misgendering someone is that right no i didn't mess gender anyone specifically i

00:02:00.480 they started kind of locking down my account and combing through my tweets um and one of the

00:02:07.580 tweets that they locked me down for was men are not women which is uh i believe like a criminal

00:02:15.360 statement and uh and for asking what's the difference between I think I asked what was

00:02:23.540 the difference between a trans woman and a man and I wasn't I actually really wasn't trying to

00:02:27.780 be antagonistic although you know I do like to you know joke and poke at people but I'm also

00:02:33.840 you know just being straightforward and what I was trying to get at was like what is it that

00:02:39.220 happens between being a male and becoming a trans woman you know what are we saying when

00:02:45.160 we're saying someone is a trans woman because nobody seems to be able to answer these questions

00:02:49.020 like what is the difference between on Wednesday you're a male and on Thursday you're a trans

00:02:54.980 woman what happened there um did you change your outfit um you just sort of feel like womanly on

00:03:01.040 the inside you're feeling a little emotional I don't know um I was gonna say could you take a

00:03:06.980 pay cut but no that's a good one too um and like so yeah so they locked my account down for that

00:03:19.180 one and then what finally they they permanently banned me for was a reference to a man named

00:03:28.080 Jonathan Yaniv who had taken a number of female estheticians here in the Vancouver area I live in

00:03:35.420 vancouver um to he filed human rights complaints against them because they wouldn't give him a

00:03:43.400 brazilian bikini wax and he claimed that this was transphobic discrimination because he is in fact 0.99

00:03:50.220 female and therefore his cock and balls are lady cock and balls and um i he his name was under a 0.99

00:03:59.940 publication ban so at the time um the media were not printing his name they were referring to him 0.99

00:04:06.420 as jy and somebody discovered his real identity um i tweeted something saying like is it true

00:04:14.720 that jy is in fact so and so uh linking to his twitter account and that it was it was proved to

00:04:22.680 be so somebody sent me a screenshot and it was a public screenshot you know it's his name his face

00:04:27.380 He was leaving a review on Yelp or something like that saying like, Brittany did a great

00:04:31.840 job on my Brazilian bikini wax. 0.69

00:04:34.380 And so I responded, I posted that screenshot and said, yeah, it's him.

00:04:38.980 That's all I said.

00:04:39.640 Yeah, it's him.

00:04:40.540 And then I was permanently banned.

00:04:41.960 So, I mean, I guess you could call it misgendering, except that he was still using his male pronouns

00:04:46.300 in various places online, including on social media.

00:04:49.860 So he was misgendering himself, which means that he should have been banned from social

00:04:55.240 media for transphobic hate crimes against themselves, I think. And Megan, like this

00:05:03.680 issue has now become very much into the mainstream. I've got, you know, you talk about it normally in

00:05:09.060 hushed tones, looking over your shoulder as because that's the way it is. And a lot of men

00:05:15.400 don't get it. They don't see what the big deal is. They don't see what the fuss is. Could you

00:05:20.180 just explain to people why this is such an important issue, not only for you, but also for

00:05:25.320 women? Well, I mean, first of all, I think that it's important that we be allowed to discuss

00:05:33.400 material reality and to tell the truth and also to engage in debate around contentious topics. So,

00:05:41.960 you know, regardless of whether or not this, this, you know, I mean, I don't think that what

00:05:49.660 I'm saying is particularly offensive. I'm saying males cannot change sex. It's biologically

00:05:55.460 impossible. I'm not saying that to be cruel or judgmental. It's just true. And I mean,

00:06:01.920 I don't actually think that it's very helpful to go around telling people that it's possible

00:06:05.460 to change their sex because I think that they'll be sorely disappointed when they realize that's 1.00

00:06:09.740 not the case. But in general, we should be able to have conversations. If you literally think that

00:06:19.500 a man should be able to declare himself a woman, then explain to me why. Why is that important?

00:06:25.060 Why would a man ever need to declare himself a woman? But moreover, of course, you know, if men

00:06:32.040 can be women just by saying so, then that means that they have access to any and all female spaces. 1.00

00:06:37.560 So that means, you know, women and girls change rooms, women's transition houses, they can be 0.97

00:06:43.340 transferred to female prisons, they can compete in sports against women, which are all really 1.00

00:06:48.920 problematic areas. You know, we know that men are physically different than women. We know that men 0.93

00:06:55.820 are in general stronger than women. And, you know, we're seeing now men competing against women in

00:07:03.320 like track and field and winning and in like rugby and like weightlifting competitions. And

00:07:10.480 I mean, it's ridiculous, but it's also like, okay, then that's the end of female sports, I guess. I 1.00

00:07:16.480 I mean, women can't compete fairly if they have to compete against men. 1.00

00:07:20.360 So if we're going to have, you know, like rights and spaces for women, we have to be

00:07:24.560 able to define what a woman is.

00:07:26.780 And if a man is a woman, then we can't. 1.00

00:07:29.740 There's no such thing as a woman if like literally anything and anyone is a woman just 0.99

00:07:34.780 because they say so.

00:07:36.660 Megan, this is an interesting point you make.

00:07:38.140 And we wanted to talk to you about feminism in detail in kind of towards the second half

00:07:42.860 of the interview.

00:07:43.340 But I think it's important to bring it up here, because you talk about, you know, you want to be able to discuss reality. You want people to understand that men and women are different, that men tend to be bigger, stronger, faster, and there's all kinds of other differences, right?

00:08:01.840 But some people might say that feminists, some feminists, not all feminists, but some feminists have been eroding the concept of reality over the last 20 or 30 years, pretending that these differences don't exist. 1.00

00:08:17.020 You know, France has made a joke about the gender pay gap. 1.00

00:08:19.780 A lot of evidence now is it doesn't really exist in the way that people talk about it, right?

00:08:23.840 So do you think that there's some responsibility that feminists need to take for introducing this erosion of reality into our public space? 1.00

00:08:34.580 Sure. I mean, I do think that it's a mistake to pretend that men and women are equal, and I don't think that it's necessary. 1.00

00:08:40.180 And by equal, I mean literally equal.

00:08:42.600 Like, of course, we should have the same access to human rights.

00:08:46.080 And the same access to we should be treated with respect and dignity and be safe from safe and protected from discrimination and violence.

00:08:56.500 But men and women aren't the same. And pretending that they are and pushing for that is, you know, unnecessary, in my opinion.

00:09:04.660 And yeah, I think I'm sure there's lots of places along the way that feminists have made a mistake. 1.00

00:09:09.560 And in many ways, those who probably would describe themselves as feminists in gender studies departments in academia are responsible for this new gender identity ideology that we're dealing with now, where, you know, how you feel on the inside defines your body and defines material reality.

00:09:29.740 I mean, that's all kind of, as far as I can tell, most of that came out of gender studies, queer studies, this idea that you can kind of subvert reality through language or imagination. 1.00

00:09:43.140 And isn't it just a one-stop way to actually make yourself feel incredibly miserable as well, is if you deny that there's no difference between the genders, and in a sense denying some aspects of being male which are important for men.

00:09:59.260 And by going, oh, that's unimportant, all of a sudden you take away something inherent in us.

00:10:06.180 I mean, at the end of the day, I really just want everyone to be able to be themselves.

00:10:13.100 And so, you know, like I differentiate between sex and gender.

00:10:16.860 So when I talk about sex, I'm talking about the body, whether or not you're born male or female.

00:10:22.180 And when I talk about gender, I'm talking about femininity and masculinity.

00:10:25.760 So that's more attached to the stereotypes around behaviors and likes and dislikes, maybe things like clothing.

00:10:36.100 Megan, sorry to interrupt, but just for anyone who's listening, just an ordinary person who's not engaged in any of these conversations, just explain that to people a little bit more.

00:10:46.040 So you make a distinction between sex, which you talk about biology, i.e. do you have a penis or a vagina, breast or a flat chest, whatever. 0.95

00:10:54.460 birth to produce sperm or over but and then there's the other side which as you say is more 0.99

00:11:01.260 behavior you know clothing whatever so i use then saying that people's gender and sex can be 0.95

00:11:09.040 misaligned in other words someone can have a penis but be a be a man or male or what's the

00:11:15.640 right term not really because i don't think those stereotypes are so fixed like i think what we're 0.96

00:11:20.360 really just talking about is personality. So, you know, no, I don't actually think that

00:11:25.860 people are all one thing, you know, every single feminine stereotype doesn't apply to me in some 1.00

00:11:33.140 ways they do. And in some ways I will be feminine, but in other ways not, you know, maybe like girls 0.81

00:11:39.900 can be interested in boys toys and want to play football and be more interested in trucks than

00:11:48.420 dolls and so on and so forth um so i think that your personality doesn't change your body i mean

00:11:54.660 a person can feel feminine all they want and that just means sorry i should say a male can feel 0.89

00:12:00.820 feel feminine all they want but that doesn't make him not male it's just like a man who's interested

00:12:06.180 in so-called feminine things and stereotypically feminine things like you put on a dress that 1.00

00:12:12.440 doesn't that doesn't actually change your body right so this is what i'm trying to get at is

00:12:17.340 what is the purpose then of separating sex from gender um well could we not just say it's a

00:12:25.220 feminine man or a tomboy woman or like why do we have to separate these two because i just i see 0.54

00:12:33.180 that as a kind of slope towards the trans ideology that you you are critical of you know this idea

00:12:39.720 that uh your biology isn't necessarily what determines how you how you are in the world when

00:12:45.220 in fact, to a large extent it does. Sure. I mean, you could say that's a feminine man or you could

00:12:50.620 just say that's just a man and this is just his personality. I mean, I don't even know if we

00:12:56.180 really need to talk about femininity and masculinity all that much. We could just be like

00:13:00.800 people are different people. I just don't, I don't, I don't know that it's all that helpful to,

00:13:08.700 you know, discuss these, these stereotypes as if they're inherent. Although I think I, you know,

00:13:14.420 like i do want to clarify that it's like i do think that there are differences between men and

00:13:19.260 women that are connected to evolution for sure i mean men and women have different roles in society

00:13:27.020 and have long had different roles in society and it sort of makes sense that they would be engaged

00:13:32.200 in different activities based on those biological differences right so but in general i mean i would

00:13:39.500 just say like like if this guy likes you know pink and sparkly dresses then okay like if that

00:13:49.200 makes him happy then like knock yourself out go ahead francis knock yourself out 0.94

00:13:53.640 there's nothing wrong with it mate i look great in sparkly dress my legs look divine anyway um

00:14:03.820 didn't think i'd ever say those words especially going out onto the internet anyway we're moving

00:14:08.460 on I know uh Megan I've watched some of your lectures they've all been very very interesting

00:14:13.160 you have a particular problem and issue with the word cis being used especially to describe

00:14:20.280 women why do you dislike the word cis because I know a lot of women do yeah I mean again like I

00:14:28.060 really just it's totally unnecessary because supposedly what cis means is that you're like

00:14:35.580 a sign gender matches your sex but a i mean i again i don't think that's applicable to me

00:14:41.460 because i wasn't i didn't like come out of the womb being interested in like stilettos and

00:14:46.760 eyeliner that's sort of part of uh cultural learning and socialization and other factors

00:14:55.020 you know i know women who hate eyeliner um does that mean that they're not cis women like even

00:15:00.360 if they don't identify as transgender it's sort of like this this prefix that we're attaching to

00:15:06.100 woman just to say you're a woman who's a female and that's what a woman is she is female like 1.00

00:15:10.800 we're over complicating this like there's no fancy definition here like a woman is an adult human

00:15:16.960 female it doesn't matter how she feels about her gender it doesn't matter what her personality is 1.00

00:15:21.900 it doesn't matter what clothes she likes to wear we don't need to have that conversation necessarily

00:15:26.560 um it's sort of like and it sort of positions women women who are female i.e all women as 0.96

00:15:36.500 not the norm like now it's sort of like a trans woman is an actual woman and women who don't

00:15:44.180 identify as trans have to add this extra extra word cis um it's a different kind of women like 1.00

00:15:51.240 it's just it's all imaginary and it's all kind of like gobbledygook like you know you you you

00:15:58.120 aren't a woman like we keep insisting and by we i mean not we at all because i've never insisted

00:16:04.640 the progressives the left the trans activists the liberals like whatever you want to call them

00:16:12.920 um some trans identified people and i mean i should also add that like not all trans identified 0.90

00:16:18.760 people agree with this crap right like i know people who call themselves transsexual who know 0.96

00:16:24.840 full well that they're male but for whatever reason they feel more comfortable trying to 0.99

00:16:29.580 present as women right well we've had rose of dawn on the show uh precisely talking and and

00:16:34.860 there's a whole spectrum within that as well like we've had uh india willoughby who is a trans woman 0.99

00:16:40.440 um and on many things i think she'd disagree with you but on the sports issue for example

00:16:46.500 agrees with you completely right so there's a range of opinion and this is one of the problems

00:16:51.020 with the progressive left's ideology is that it assumes that people of a certain identity group

00:16:57.540 all think the same which of course is an incredibly racist sexist uh transphobic homophobic concept in

00:17:04.180 and of itself right um but uh so the cis thing annoys you uh for that reason and what about

00:17:13.080 this is another thing that i've i've actually made the mistake of uh i i heard the the the word

00:17:19.240 turf being used right and i looked up the definition which is trans exclusionary radical

00:17:25.840 feminist and i assumed that that's what it meant so i used it to describe a woman who was a trans 0.87

00:17:33.960 exclusionary radical feminist and a bunch of our uh viewers uh and subscribers freaked out and said 1.00

00:17:41.040 that it's a massive insult. So why is that such a painful word to use about gender-critical

00:17:48.840 feminists? Well, I don't think it really makes any sense because it's applied to all sorts of 1.00

00:17:56.400 people regardless of whether or not they identify as radical feminists in the first place. I don't

00:18:01.920 identify as a radical feminist. I'm not really super interested in identifying as anything these

00:18:07.920 days i don't think that labels are all that helpful i'd prefer to just have conversations

00:18:12.460 about who i think but i mean i am of course a feminist um but it's also like it's not about

00:18:21.000 excluding trans identified people it's about um definitions and it's about keeping men specifically

00:18:31.040 out of women's faces so i think what they actually mean they're just not being honest when they use 0.74

00:18:35.200 these terms right what they actually mean is that feminists certain feminists are wanting to keep 1.00

00:18:42.480 women only spaces women only and so if you're male you can't access again like a woman's transition 0.99

00:18:48.720 house um they're saying you shouldn't be transferred to a female prison because that's 1.00

00:18:52.740 dangerous that you shouldn't just be allowed to like walk into a woman's change room and start 1.00

00:18:57.620 getting undressed um and it's you know it's not about keeping for example females who identify

00:19:05.180 as trans out of women's spaces um and it sort of isn't it though i mean what if what if if you have

00:19:12.240 a trans man so that's someone who used to identify or who's biologically uh female but has transitioned 0.98

00:19:20.100 to male look at you dance around those little laser beams there it's fucking it's a difficult 0.99

00:19:26.480 one but someone who was born a woman born female right and now dresses and appears to be male for 0.99

00:19:34.300 all intents and purposes they may have facial hair right would would would you not want them

00:19:39.820 excluded from a female only space no i mean if they're female i don't really care um i you know 0.94

00:19:48.080 women's spaces are for women and as far as I'm concerned women who identify as trans men are

00:19:54.920 still female and you know like the honest truth is that like most trans identified people don't 1.00

00:20:01.020 pass um most people in the world can discern sex pretty easily that's again part of our

00:20:07.960 like part of evolutionary biology like we we do need to discern sex so um I think there's like a

00:20:15.420 few people who, who, who can pass. So that is to say like a man who transitioned to be a woman and

00:20:22.960 people, when they see him on the street, actually just assume he's a woman and vice versa. But most

00:20:28.500 people don't. And, um, no, I, I, I have no interest in excluding, you know, women or, or girls who

00:20:35.580 identify as boys or women from, from female in these spaces. And, you know, turf really is only

00:20:41.060 used in the pejorative like it's only it's it's it's used as an insult and an attack and to shut

00:20:47.100 down conversation it's been used against me and lots of other women that i know attached to you 1.00

00:20:53.180 know like misogynist terms and like attached to violent threats like die turf um at one of uh the

00:21:00.560 events that we held in here in vancouver um in the winter you know there were these activists outside

00:21:08.800 who had put together this like cardboard guillotine

00:21:11.880 and it was like, turf, step right up.

00:21:16.320 People have vandalized

00:21:18.840 a Vancouver rape relief and women's shelter storefront,

00:21:22.500 which is like a local transition house here in Vancouver

00:21:24.920 that's women only. 1.00

00:21:26.080 So they're kind of constantly under attack

00:21:28.340 because they're insistent on not letting men in

00:21:32.320 to this space where like women are escaping 1.00

00:21:35.380 horrific violence and abuse

00:21:37.060 and trying to heal from like sexual assault and things like that so you know they they graffitied

00:21:43.480 like dye turfs on their storefront you know like it's it can be used in like really scary ways not

00:21:50.240 always but but it's certainly not uncommon and it's just it's used as a way to attack anyone

00:21:58.900 who asks questions about or challenges gender identity ideology legislation policies again

00:22:05.720 whether or not they identify as radical feminists, whether or not they're interested in excluding

00:22:10.660 trans-identified people from anything. Like if you just say, you know, men are male or you can't 0.96

00:22:17.980 change sex, then you're a TERF, supposedly. And how have we got to this point? Because it just 0.76

00:22:24.220 seems to me that we've just descended into lunacy and into chaos where you've said yourself, like

00:22:29.720 people are graffitiing on a rape crisis center how has it come to this point

00:22:35.640 that's a really good question and i've thought about this a lot and i'm not entirely sure because

00:22:42.240 it does seem totally insane and so many people are on board with it like regular intelligent

00:22:48.820 people or people who i thought were regular intelligent people until they started repeating

00:22:53.660 this nonsense have gone along with this and act like I'm some kind of like horrible villain

00:23:00.580 because I say things like men aren't women and I'm just like I've had a lot of trouble figuring

00:23:08.920 out if they're actually being sincere in their belief when they say things like trans women are 1.00

00:23:15.480 women or if they're just saying it so they don't get in trouble or if they've just been told you 0.95

00:23:20.400 know this is the progressive thing to say and think so unless you're a terrible bigot and a 0.95

00:23:27.440 nazi then you have to go along with this and nobody wants to be a nazi very few people want

00:23:32.880 to be nazis in any case um so like i again like i i sort of think a lot of it came out of academia

00:23:42.280 like it you know a lot of it is just this weird theory that got translated somehow into real life

00:23:49.700 and completely confused. And even the people who support this ideology, so I refer to those people

00:23:56.440 as trans activists, not necessarily because they're actually trans, but because they push

00:24:00.580 these ideas. You know, even these people, you know, when you ask them questions and you try

00:24:09.180 to talk to them about this ideology, what they say doesn't make any sense. And they can't answer

00:24:13.860 basic questions. Like, again, you know, I would always ask, like, what is a woman? Like, if you're

00:24:19.340 going to announce trans women are women what does that mean what does the word women mean and they're

00:24:24.580 like whatever you know they can't answer so they'll say something like it's just anyone who

00:24:29.420 identifies as a woman and i'll say okay so what is it that you're identifying as and they can't

00:24:35.540 answer that and then they just get mad and block you or they call you a turp but you know you would 0.96

00:24:40.540 think that if it was really really important to them that you identify a so-called trans woman

00:24:48.280 as a woman that that would be because that word actually means something um so it's odd that they

00:24:53.880 keep insisting that you you say that trans women are women like repeat after me trans women are 1.00

00:24:58.800 women if they're not even going to define the term term woman and they won't even explain 1.00

00:25:02.520 what it means to say that a man is a woman you know what what is that process and again like

00:25:08.540 this is what i said before like why is it even important like i just feel like surely we can

00:25:13.520 treat people with respect and dignity without lying? Like, can't we just say you should treat

00:25:19.600 this guy with respect and dignity, even though he isn't masculine or something like that? Why do we

00:25:26.040 have to say that he's a literal female? Like, who does that help? It's not going to help his doctor, 0.94

00:25:30.120 you know what I mean? Like, there's very good reasons to understand the differences between

00:25:34.600 men and women and to understand when somebody is like a male and somebody is a female.

00:25:39.120 um like namely like health reasons but all sorts of other reasons also

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00:27:13.420 Tell me this, because it seems to me like the thing you're talking about, which is the erosion of reality,

00:27:20.060 the erosion of the concept of truth, the indoctrination and the demand that we all subscribe to things that we know are not true.

00:27:27.780 Right. That is something that applies in all sorts of areas, whether it's race, whether it's gender and sex, men and women, whether it's the trans issue.

00:27:37.600 But the trans issue, for some reason, is particularly vitriolic.

00:27:40.980 So we just had Graham Linehan on the show a week ago and we talk to controversial people all the time, but I don't think we've ever had the level of nastiness towards him and towards us that we had after having him on the show.

00:27:57.780 Why is this issue so, so, so difficult and the people involved in it, why are they so, so angry?

00:28:08.920 That is a very good question.

00:28:11.500 I don't understand why people get so angry about this issue.

00:28:15.840 I think part of it is that if you are a person who is trans identified and you've been told over and over and over again by these activists that you,

00:28:26.880 So say you're a man who identifies a trans woman. You've been told over and over and over again by these trans activists, you're a woman, you're a literal woman. And if somebody misgenders you, that's violence and it's traumatic. And the only way that you can accept yourself and to live a happy life is if others validate your identity.

00:28:49.720 So it's sort of, it's such a strange and unhelpful ideology to me because it's not about, you know, you feeling comfortable with yourself. Actually, that is rest wholly on external validation, which is very, you know, unstable. Like you can't control what other people think and say about you. You can't control if you walk down the street and somebody reads you as a man because you look male, there's not really anything you can do about that.

00:29:17.040 But you've been told that you can, that you can control that.

00:29:21.280 So I think people sort of become enraged because, I mean, A, they've been sort of, they've been told that they're a very vulnerable and marginalized population and that this misgendering thing is like traumatic and triggering and will actually like destroy your sense of self.

00:29:42.480 um but i guess i mean i i i just i think all this lying to people has been really unhelpful to them

00:29:51.820 right um because now they have this expectation that everyone else should participate in the lie

00:29:57.960 um so i i guess and i mean i i also think a lot of people have just invested so much into these

00:30:05.740 politics. So they've spent so much time, you know, changing their policies in their organizations

00:30:13.300 and going around the internet yelling at everybody about trans women or women and

00:30:19.560 insisting that we don't misgender them. You know, journalistic policies have been changed. And so I

00:30:24.180 think it would be kind of embarrassing at this point to backtrack. You know, they made such a

00:30:28.220 big scene about the whole thing and tried to vilify all of us who challenge it practically

00:30:34.100 is criminals. I've seen people say things like, it's illegal to misgender. It's hate speech to

00:30:43.460 call a trans woman male. And we've seen women in the UK actually be... Actually, I know women in 0.67

00:30:53.400 Vancouver who've been fired from their jobs over this. We've seen people be taken to court over

00:30:58.580 this now um so i don't know i mean i guess i i don't know i think it's sort of hard for a lot

00:31:07.420 of people to admit that maybe they were wrong especially when they've spent so much time sort

00:31:13.120 of banging the drum on this issue and megan do you see this as a freedom of speech issue like

00:31:18.580 somebody can identify as a gender but it's it's up to you whether you would if you choose to follow

00:31:24.660 that you know would you go along with that or do you think that actually you know it's it's the

00:31:30.940 correct thing to do um i do see it as a freedom of speech issue um i think that you know if you

00:31:38.920 if you want to call a trans woman she or her then you can do that but you don't get to insist that

00:31:46.360 somebody else do that well megan let's uh we wanted to talk to you about feminism as well 1.00

00:31:53.500 Because I think, you know, while obviously the trans issue has become a big one, I just feel like we've got bigger things to discuss more generally anyway as a society and there's bigger things to talk about.

00:32:05.900 But first of all, can you just explain to us what feminism is? 1.00

00:32:09.100 Because a lot of people who don't know the details of it will, again, look at the official definition and it's the belief that men and women are and should be treated equally, right?

00:32:19.500 Are equals should be treated equally.

00:32:20.860 um but a lot of the people who observe just like with the turf thing that there's the way that

00:32:26.500 it's defined and then there's the way that you perceive it based on observation uh and you see 0.96

00:32:32.460 all this stuff like men are trash and all this other stuff all men are potential rapists like 0.98

00:32:37.720 are those feminists too like what is the feminist movement and why are there like these different 0.99

00:32:44.380 readings of it i mean it's yeah like it's so tough today because i think so many people have

00:32:50.400 like wildly different understandings of what feminism is and people who identify as as 0.93

00:32:56.980 feminists will see things very differently than other people who also identify as feminists so 1.00

00:33:03.320 it's sort of like I almost like I'm almost inclined to kind of like stop talking about

00:33:09.880 feminism and again start talking about like ideas and issues because I just feel like that's more 1.00

00:33:16.560 productive and it's easier for us to understand one another if we're just talking about specific

00:33:22.400 issues. So talk to us about the specific issues. You as a kind of what I would say is a sane

00:33:28.020 feminist, you're not running around saying all men are rapists, etc. What are the issues that

00:33:34.180 in your opinion, women who want to protect and advance women's rights should be focusing on at

00:33:39.660 the moment? So I think a key issue is violence against women. And I think it's interesting 0.99

00:33:45.280 because I think third wave feminists, so kind of like modern mainstream feminists, like whatever 1.00

00:33:51.660 you want to call them. Some people call them liberal feminists. I usually refer to them as 1.00

00:33:55.740 third wave feminists. They seem to have really not focused on violence against women. And to me,

00:34:02.040 that's one of the biggest, most serious issues facing women around the world. You know, things 1.00

00:34:07.520 like rape and domestic abuse and fgm um what happens to women in prostitution for example 0.55

00:34:15.240 is really horrific sex trafficking like these are major issues you know things like you know

00:34:20.740 the violence and misogyny that happens in the porn industry and the exploitation that happens

00:34:25.780 in the porn industry these are like multi-billion dollar industries and thousands and thousands of

00:34:31.620 women are impacted by these things and yet we don't see a lot of mainstream you know third wave

00:34:39.960 feminists these like young cool girl feminists who are invested in like i don't know like the 1.00

00:34:45.280 fat positivity movement or like posing in their outfits on instagram and like trying to argue 0.97

00:34:54.220 about their fucking pronouns it's like these things aren't important like there are a lot of 0.97

00:35:00.260 really important issues going on in the world a lot of really horrible things are happening 1.00

00:35:04.780 to women and girls every day all around the world and and you're obsessing over your pronouns and

00:35:12.540 whether or not you're non-binary and trying to like look sexy on the internet like so that i 0.84

00:35:20.160 mean sorry france i just want to finish that issue so you see i think if if if the public

00:35:26.260 perception was that that is what feminism is, you know, the advocacy against violence against 1.00

00:35:32.580 women. I think you would have a society where almost everybody thought they were a feminist 1.00

00:35:37.440 on that definition, right? But the polling shows that I think in this country, it's like 7% of

00:35:43.820 women identify as feminists. At the last poll, nearly, I think it's over half of men said that

00:35:51.180 they thought that feminism was about, not about hating men,

00:35:55.400 but it was almost like a female supremacy movement 1.00

00:35:58.560 as opposed to a movement for the protection of women from discrimination.

00:36:03.540 So why is there this massive gap in perception

00:36:06.640 versus the kind of stuff that you're talking about?

00:36:08.520 Is it that these woke feminists are kind of ruining feminism? 1.00

00:36:12.620 Yeah, well, I mean, I think that the kind of feminism 1.00

00:36:16.280 that gets mainstream coverage in the U.S., for example,

00:36:21.180 um, is, is again, not really centered around these issues that I believe to be really important

00:36:28.060 and that it should be centered around. Um, I do think that there has been kind of like a lot of

00:36:34.000 casual, like man hating in feminism that I guess these women think is like funny or cool. And it 0.92

00:36:42.180 doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily offend me unless it actually is offensive, but for the 0.99

00:36:47.380 most part it's sort of jokey I just find it kind of like stupid and childish and boring like all 0.84

00:36:52.100 this like male tears things thing like it's like I don't like I also like I don't like this idea 0.97

00:36:59.180 where we go around telling other people to shut up like I don't like seeing other feminists being 1.00

00:37:05.840 like you're a man sit down you have no say in this because I just don't I don't agree with that 1.00

00:37:10.860 like I kind of think everybody has a say I think everybody should participate in the conversation

00:37:15.860 um and that doesn't mean that i think you know there aren't some spaces that could or should

00:37:22.020 just be for women to talk about issues particularly impacting women but i mean you you see on twitter

00:37:29.480 and on facebook like social media all the time um it's like oh you're a man so like you have

00:37:36.560 privilege and you don't get to speak and i mean people do the same things in different ways

00:37:42.160 depending on your your so-called identity so it's like oh well you're a you're a cis woman so you 0.99

00:37:49.120 need to sit down and shut up like you're white so you need to sit down and shut up um and that's 0.99

00:37:56.100 just like a really unproductive obviously way to engage in discussion and it prevents us from 0.99

00:38:03.040 learning and from understanding each other which i mean this plays into all sorts of other issues

00:38:09.160 that we could get into, which is that I don't think that a lot of people want to understand

00:38:13.640 each other anymore. I think they just want to create divisions and then talk within their

00:38:18.260 own little bubbles. But yeah, I guess I sort of lost track of your original question.

00:38:25.380 No, but actually you've veered into a very interesting subject, which is you think that

00:38:29.760 people don't want to understand each other.

00:38:32.780 No, it doesn't seem like they do. It seems like people want their tribes.

00:38:36.780 You know, people want to only talk within their ideological and political bubbles, and they get really upset and triggered and offended, even to be exposed to other ideas.

00:38:50.540 And I find it really troubling, but I also don't relate to that at all because I really enjoy talking to people who aren't like me. I enjoy talking to all sorts of people and I find it really boring to sort of either just for me to be just kind of preaching to the choir or for me to be just reading the same takes over and over and over again.

00:39:11.800 it's like okay got it like I know that you think this I want something new um I want to you know

00:39:17.400 learn something I want to be challenged in my thinking um and yeah I mean people people on

00:39:26.040 the left I I talk a lot about people on the left because that's sort of where I've been engaged um

00:39:35.200 for years and years and years you know I haven't been involved in right-wing circles much so I

00:39:40.760 can't necessarily speak for that so maybe they do this too but it seems to me that it's it's

00:39:46.120 particular to progressives and the left and liberals um that i think the right do it too

00:39:52.680 as well megan sorry to interrupt like whenever we put out a video that is with like a left-wing

00:39:59.020 person the right wing get triggered and like downvoted before they've watched it and like

00:40:04.440 put loads of comments before they've watched it and then whenever we put a video by a right-wing

00:40:09.560 person that the left don't like, then the left come and do the same thing. So I think everybody's

00:40:15.100 prone to it, but I would say the left pioneered it. Yeah. I mean, it just seems like people sort

00:40:21.220 of want comfort over challenges and they don't want to develop an understanding of people who

00:40:28.960 are different than them, which I think is troubling in a lot of ways because supposedly,

00:40:33.960 like we as a society want to be reaching towards like tolerance diversity inclusion these kinds of

00:40:42.220 concepts that we hear about all the time but don't actively actually promote you know nobody wants

00:40:48.440 diversity of thought people want the kind of diversity that fits a particular mold you know

00:40:55.560 I feel like that happens to me a lot where people have sort of put me in this box and they want me

00:40:59.700 to stay in this box and if I step outside of the box so like if I talk to people that they don't

00:41:04.760 like or you know people that aren't feminist or people that aren't left-wing then they kind of 0.96

00:41:10.780 freak out like people seem really triggered by that and they you know get angry at me and are

00:41:15.960 like oh well I guess you're not a feminist anymore I guess you're a right-winger now because you had 1.00

00:41:20.880 a conversation with this like right-wing guy and you seem to get along with him and I'm like well

00:41:25.440 yeah like he's nice like why do i have to be mean to somebody just because i don't agree with them

00:41:30.340 like it's so odd to me it's because they're evil megan now um just i'm just uh i want to ask what

00:41:38.820 do you think now what you touched on like as constant said was very interesting but what do

00:41:42.620 you think is going to be the end game if we keep in our own little bubbles and don't discuss and

00:41:47.980 don't share ideas what do you think is going to happen to society as a result of that i think

00:41:53.900 things will just get worse i mean i i we empathy is an incredibly important thing um we i think

00:42:02.940 that what we're doing in terms of staying in our little bubbles creating these divisions in terms

00:42:08.300 of this kind of tribalism in terms of you know vilifying people who are different than us

00:42:13.580 vilifying people who simply don't agree with all of our political opinions what it what we're doing

00:42:19.180 actually is we're dehumanizing people. So we're not treating and approaching and engaging with

00:42:25.100 people as though they're full complex human beings. And most people are full complex human

00:42:30.520 beings. Most people are in fact not left or right. Most people are kind of like apolitical or

00:42:38.260 somewhere in between, or maybe they'll hold some views that might fit with the left wing view and

00:42:44.040 some other views that might fit with the right wing view. I mean, people are just way more

00:42:47.940 complicated than this. And if we turn everybody who isn't just like us into our enemy and

00:42:54.480 dehumanize them, I think it's really dangerous. I think that that's where we get into justifying

00:43:01.760 violence and things like that. And we'll see this on the far kind of extreme left with groups like

00:43:07.440 Antifa and things like that. And I've seen that in terms of behavior towards me, where people

00:43:13.320 threaten me with violence and death because they've decided that I'm this horrible person

00:43:18.660 because I say that trans women are male or because I say you can't change sex or because I'm trying 1.00

00:43:24.580 to protect women's sex-based rights. But in order to avoid engaging with me and in order to avoid 0.99

00:43:32.300 humanizing me, they turn me into this bad, inhuman person and then it makes it okay for them to

00:43:40.340 threaten me with violence. And that's really scary. You know, it's not okay to threaten anybody

00:43:44.220 with violence. I don't care how much you disagree with them. I don't care how bad you've decided

00:43:49.320 they are. That person's a human being. You don't get to go around killing people because you

00:43:53.900 disagree with them. And that's, you know, I see those justifications from people nowadays. I mean,

00:43:59.660 it's not necessarily new, but it's sort of like newly shocking to me that people who claim to be 0.94

00:44:06.560 open-minded people who are pushing for inclusivity and diversity are also justifying or at very least

00:44:15.240 not speaking out against these violent threats or in fact actual real violence against you know

00:44:21.560 political enemies people that they've decided are enemies in any case it's like you've never

00:44:27.200 even had a conversation with this person anyway you've probably even never read the article that

00:44:31.540 you're pissed about you probably never even listened to a word that they've said and you've

00:44:36.220 just decided because your your your group your social circle your political circle or whatever

00:44:41.520 has informed you that this person is like a fascist or whatever word you like are using even

00:44:48.140 though it has no real meaning anymore like that this person you know deserves to be jailed or 0.80

00:44:56.120 or punched or whatever.

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00:47:01.260 and guys you're going to look like an absolute professional in the kitchen

00:47:06.360 basically you're going to look like me and isn't that what everyone wants

00:47:10.980 one of the topics that I was really interested in when I saw some of your lectures and your work

00:47:20.200 is the topic of pornography because I bet you were mate because but you know we joke about 1.00

00:47:26.780 pornography it's ubiquitous you know if you look at you know a website like Pornhub it's got you

00:47:31.480 know billions of hits every year but why do you think it's so dangerous in particular for women 1.00

00:47:38.200 and also its effect on young men as well I mean I think as you as you say like I think that it

00:47:44.580 it is really bad for for women not just for the women who are in the porn films um but for you

00:47:52.780 know women who are you know having sex with men who've been raised on porn and i think it's really

00:47:58.180 bad for men i think it sort of gives it teaches men untrue things about sex and women and about

00:48:06.000 men also um the the reality of porn and anybody who's seen porn knows that it's degrading the

00:48:14.380 women um you know maybe there's some porn here and there that isn't degrading to women but i think 1.00

00:48:19.500 that the vast majority is degrading to women. A lot of it is violent. A lot of it is using 1.00

00:48:25.680 misogynist and really racist language. I mean, pornography is overtly racist in the way that

00:48:31.460 it's categorized even, but there's also a lot of racist slurs that we hear in pornography.

00:48:37.920 And so I think that it sort of normalizes the idea that violence is sexy and that women want 0.86

00:48:46.740 to be degraded that women want to be choked um that women want you know five guys to come in 0.70

00:48:52.860 her face like most women don't enjoy that well i'm learning something and like it's just this is 1.00

00:49:03.260 this is what i you know and i also sort of think i think it gives men who watch porn a

00:49:13.240 uh uh sort of i'm trying to think of how to explain this you know i know of men or i know

00:49:22.340 of women who've had boyfriends or partners who like can no longer get it up without pornography

00:49:30.840 who can't like come from regular sex with regular women because they've been watching kind of more

00:49:37.700 and more extreme pornography and so they've acclimatized themselves to this new thing

00:49:42.560 um so i think you know like i sort of wonder why men don't worry about that themselves and

00:49:50.540 you know i think it trains men honestly to be bad in bed like if you're learning about 0.99

00:49:56.360 sex and what women enjoy from pornography you're really not at all learning oh you're fucked 0.99

00:50:02.520 the voice of experience constantine absolutely mate no you you genuinely it is very misleading 1.00

00:50:12.460 uh i think we joke about it but that is just you you're not wrong there for sure um i but i guess

00:50:19.000 i suppose the counter argument might be well these are consenting adults engaging in you know

00:50:23.860 legal activity what's you know who are we to interfere kind of the libertarian argument i

00:50:29.340 suppose what do you make of that well I think that that conversation is more complicated than

00:50:36.440 just consent versus non-consent because I think that obviously like a lot of women and girls who 0.96

00:50:43.020 do pornography are doing it because they feel they have no other choice there's also like a

00:50:49.000 lot of drug addiction and mental health issues and abuse that's going on in pornography there's

00:50:54.760 you know, there's information that shows that a lot of the girls in pornography have 1.00

00:51:01.100 abusive pasts. I think that it's possible to be kind of groomed into these industries if you have

00:51:09.560 like a history of sexual abuse and you sort of normalize that. Obviously, if you're, you know,

00:51:14.860 addicted and struggling with other mental health issues, I'm not sure that the consent conversation

00:51:20.660 should just be limited to whether or not you said yes or no you know if you're vulnerable then

00:51:25.700 there's all sorts of reasons that you might agree to do something that is exploitative

00:51:30.760 um but i also think that argument megan sorry to interrupt just i'll give you plenty of time

00:51:36.160 to finish i just want to interject this here um the the argument that well these people feel like

00:51:42.700 they have no other choice i mean the argument could be made about any job you know people

00:51:46.400 hate working in a call center and you could say working for a very low paid very unpleasant job

00:51:52.660 is something that you know you don't have a choice because again you could have had an

00:51:58.120 abusive past and therefore you're not able to get a better job like all of this stuff is still

00:52:01.920 you know human beings aren't perfect none of us are none of us have a perfect history a lot of

00:52:07.960 the decisions that we make are based on trauma you know whatever experiences we might have had

00:52:13.000 um so i suppose i'm what i'm saying all i'm saying is that argument can be made about lots

00:52:18.220 of jobs not just pornography right sure i mean i think that we can or should be able to agree that

00:52:26.240 sex is particularly intimate so having sex with somebody is not the same as for example serving

00:52:32.120 them a cup of coffee or selling them a pair of running shoes um and i think that like this is

00:52:39.240 something else that I'm actually pretty troubled about in terms of our society and I think that

00:52:45.160 liberals have sort of played a large part in pushing this thing that pretends like sex isn't 1.00

00:52:50.880 intimate and that sex isn't kind of like a special thing and I'm not like I feel like I have to be

00:52:57.420 defensive when I say that and be like I'm not religious you know like I came I was raised in

00:53:02.680 like a very anti-religion household you know like I'm uh I've I you know I don't I don't think I

00:53:09.680 even knew anybody who was religious until I was an adult like I just wasn't exposed to

00:53:14.860 Christianity or any kind of organized religion um at all but like I sort of feel resentful 0.94

00:53:22.800 because I feel like third wave feminism taught me that I should be having sex like men 0.89

00:53:31.660 so um that it should be that sex should mean nothing and that you shouldn't you know like 0.95

00:53:40.300 have a relationship with somebody um who you have sex with and I'm not saying that in order to sex

00:53:46.040 you have sex you should be in a relationship with them like that's not been my history at all and I 0.56

00:53:51.180 think it's perfectly fine to have sex with people that you're not in a relationship with but I think 0.57

00:53:55.380 that it's weird to try to force yourself to pretend that it doesn't matter like that that other human

00:54:01.000 that you're having sex with doesn't matter, that their feelings don't matter, that your 0.72

00:54:05.720 feelings don't matter, and that there's not something kind of like deeper and more intimate

00:54:11.000 going on. And I think that things like pornography and prostitution teach us that this other person

00:54:18.440 isn't a full human being, that it's just a body that you're using for your own pleasure. And I

00:54:23.240 don't think that's healthy for any party involved um i again i just think it's kind of dehumanizing

00:54:31.160 and you know we know that you know having sex with somebody like if somebody's like penetrating your 0.82

00:54:38.260 body that's that's different that's different that's gonna have a bigger impact on you than

00:54:42.860 you know like going to the office even though going to the office can sometimes be a degrading

00:54:48.540 or demoralizing experience um it can certainly make you miserable it certainly made me miserable

00:54:56.340 when i had to go to work in an office but it's not the same as you know being gang raped or 0.99

00:55:03.080 something like that right like or having gang sex consensually yeah yeah no i think you're right 0.86

00:55:09.900 And the point that you make about separating sex from emotion and to some extent from relationship, I do think that's part of it as well.

00:55:21.380 Because, you know, if you understand basic evolutionary psychology, sex is a way particularly for women to bond with the man and to get him to stick around and bring up the children that would normally have resulted from the sex.

00:55:37.280 So I think you're right that, that, that kind of attempt to just pretend that everything is, um, transactional in this kind of, and free from anything like that. I, yeah, it's not working.

00:55:48.880 yeah and I mean I just I feel like I spent a lot of time when I was younger you know like when I

00:55:56.680 was like 19 20 or whatever trying to shut down those emotions because I thought that's what it

00:56:02.340 meant to be like an empowered liberated woman is to be able to have sex without feelings and 1.00

00:56:08.360 without getting attached and you know it took me years to be like oh no that wasn't a good message

00:56:14.440 why why am I trying to force myself like I do have feelings about this like I am attached to

00:56:19.640 this person and there's nothing wrong with that like that doesn't make me weak or not sexually

00:56:24.660 liberated or not feminist like it's just such a uh really inhumane backwards message and do you 1.00

00:56:33.500 think it goes back to the idea that we were talking about before that there's no that the

00:56:37.760 liberals would say well there's no difference between the genders a woman could go out and 1.00

00:56:41.820 just have sex with a man and feel absolutely nothing just like an inverted commas a man would 0.87

00:56:46.740 do totally like it's like this idea that for a woman to be really liberated that she has to 0.94

00:56:53.820 behave like men and i'm saying like men in quotations because i don't think that's how

00:56:59.820 all men behave but um you know that that's sort of a stereotype that may be true for some men but

00:57:06.200 it's still it's a stereotype nonetheless that like all men just have sex without feeling and 0.78

00:57:10.980 without getting attached and you know want to go like have sex with a bunch of women random women 1.00

00:57:17.140 all the time like a new woman every night or whatever um but it's yeah I think that it really

00:57:24.880 it was pushed on me and I and I tried to do this again when I was younger that it's like I should

00:57:31.520 I should act like a man and I I should be able to do everything that a man can do and that's what's

00:57:37.100 going to make me feel free and, and empowered. And, and it's not true. And I mean, yeah, I do

00:57:44.560 think that that message was pushed by kind of modern feminists and modern feminism, you could 1.00

00:57:50.900 say. And what do you think of this argument that pornography is changed what we expect from women's

00:57:57.440 bodies, the point of the pornification of women's bodies that we expect them now to have a certain 0.95

00:58:02.280 type of you know leg breast buttock whatever do you think that that has impacted on society as a 0.79

00:58:08.200 whole yeah I mean I think that young women have normalized objectification in a massive way and 1.00

00:58:17.720 we'll see that in the way that they present themselves online on Instagram for example you

00:58:22.460 know like and we see that in that it's become really norm the norm for young women you know 1.00

00:58:28.400 teenage girls to send nude pornified photos to these idiot boys who don't deserve these photos 1.00

00:58:36.660 and you know and that's I mean that's dangerous to these girls in a lot of ways not least of which 1.00

00:58:42.300 being that these photos are so often leaked and then there's nude photos of them all over the

00:58:47.240 internet and they can't get rid of them um but it's also like you know you don't have to do that

00:58:53.920 to get a boy to like you like that's what girls think that they have to do to get someone interested 1.00

00:58:59.560 in them and what these girls want is a relationship like they i i'm gonna sound like a sexist now but

00:59:07.540 oh well i think it's like what these girls want is for that boy to be her boyfriend and to treat 0.99

00:59:14.180 her with respect and to love her and i don't think that sending a guy like a corny photo of yourself

00:59:21.780 is going to achieve that like I think that you should be trying to like get to know people

00:59:27.620 obviously there's attraction too like I am not so wholesome like but like you know obviously

00:59:34.440 you're like attracted to people and you want to have sex with them and sometimes those are people

00:59:38.060 who like you maybe you don't like their personalities that much and like that's fine too

00:59:42.300 but like we're not really girls aren't being honest about what they want and they're doing

00:59:47.260 the thing that the boy wants them to do and that's an exploitative thing like I don't I think that

00:59:52.180 there's a problem with like boys and men pushing for nudes of course also but um the fact that

00:59:58.560 women are just like volunteering this stuff like it's a normal thing um and sort of that they feel 1.00

01:00:05.140 like they have to like sex up the photos that they're putting on on instagram so that you know

01:00:11.220 they'll feel validated and liked and loved I mean that's not that's not a good way to build confidence

01:00:16.300 or to feel validated I mean so like so a bunch of like random dudes who know nothing about you

01:00:23.280 who don't care about you who don't know anything about your personality who don't like you for 1.00

01:00:28.080 who you are so on and so forth are like clicking like on your photo and like wanting to fuck you 0.99

01:00:33.880 I mean is that I don't think that's a way to build confidence in the long term building confidence 0.99

01:00:39.300 is about like achievement and skills and getting to know yourself and like feeling good about your

01:00:45.380 abilities and liking yourself and you know i i just don't think it's i i certainly don't think

01:00:53.220 that it's helpful for for girls and women but i mean i don't i don't know that it's it sounds to

01:00:59.280 me almost uh like the modern feminism that you're talking about has actually undermined the

01:01:06.700 achievements of previous waves of feminism and we're now going to end up circling back to 1.00

01:01:11.420 kind of traditional gender roles eventually when we've realized we've gone too far in

01:01:16.540 either direction. Do you see that happening? Are people kind of almost a clamor for women

01:01:23.660 to be women and for men to be men? Do you see that happening? 0.90

01:01:29.640 Not necessarily with people that I know. I mean, that may be happening in other circles.

01:01:35.400 I mean, it's not, I'm not necessarily calling for a return to traditional gender roles. I just, but I do think that modern feminism took things too far, you could say, to the point where I see it as a backlash.

01:01:51.360 I see it as a backlash against second wave feminism, you know, to what like the suffragettes fought for, what the women in the 60s and 70s fought for. And it's a real, I mean, I see it as sort of more male centered than anything else, to be honest.

01:02:11.800 Like, I don't see this, this modern version of feminism as really being very helpful to, to women. And, you know, we can see this in all sorts of ways, but particularly through this idea that, you know, pornography and prostitution can be empowering for women, that objectification is empowering for women.

01:02:30.460 And again, that women should be able to like have sex like men, 1.00

01:02:34.180 but, and then also through this like trans ideology,

01:02:37.140 which also came from third wave feminism 1.00

01:02:41.520 or has been pushed by third wave feminism in any case, 1.00

01:02:44.560 that a man can be a woman and there's no such thing as a woman.

01:02:48.560 And it's offensive to say that a woman is female and so on and so forth.

01:02:53.620 So I don't know if, yeah, I think that there's a lot of,

01:03:00.460 lying to one another that's based on ideological preferences over the truth. And we've sort of

01:03:07.880 been prevented from having truthful, honest conversations, because actually, sometimes the

01:03:12.500 truth, you know, the truth has been defined as offensive in so many ways. And so, you know,

01:03:17.500 when I try to have these conversations, sometimes with other feminists, you know, I think I'm 1.00

01:03:22.200 positioned as being kind of sexist or regressive. And it's like, I'm just trying to be real and get

01:03:28.840 to the truth here and have honest conversations and you know I'm not I I don't know why we can't

01:03:35.800 just talk about this stuff I mean it doesn't even mean that one of us is is right or wrong

01:03:41.400 necessarily but I would like to have a conversation and I to me it's just really important to be

01:03:46.140 authentic and to be myself and if that means that like I'm a bad feminist then I guess so be it

01:03:52.660 because I don't I don't want to lie I don't want to be somebody that I'm not no absolutely

01:03:58.500 it just seems to me like looking at this sort of third and fourth wave feminism that the mental 0.95

01:04:04.340 gymnastics sometimes that they perform in order to justify their arguments you know like you know

01:04:09.820 like saying things like you know if you're a sex worker it's somehow empowering when the reality

01:04:15.780 is if any of us had daughters male or female and you asked them would you like them to be a sex 0.58

01:04:21.280 worker invariably they would go hell no why have we again why have we got to this point where 0.78

01:04:27.920 someone can propose this argument and we will go this is clearly nonsense but somehow it's seen as

01:04:33.580 valid it's true i mean it's we're all just kind of lying to each other and and like nodding along

01:04:40.920 um we all know that you know no woman wants to be in prostitution for the most part i mean it's not

01:04:48.260 an ideal for any girl or woman to be having sex with random strangers who don't respect them day 0.71

01:04:55.220 in and day out. No one wants to do that. Most women in prostitution are doing it because they 1.00

01:04:59.780 have no other choice. And sure, there are some women who choose it. Maybe there are even some 1.00

01:05:04.020 women who like it, but that's a minority. And again, there is a reality that if you listen

01:05:11.660 to what women in prostitution say, if you listen to their stories, there is often a long history

01:05:17.820 of sexual abuse and grooming towards that role and coercion, manipulation. Sometimes it's more

01:05:26.940 overt, sometimes more subtle. But either way, we know that this industry is not an industry that

01:05:32.820 respects women and girls. We know that it's like a pretty violent, dangerous, exploitative industry. 1.00

01:05:38.620 And like you say, we know that if it was our daughter, we wouldn't want her to be doing that.

01:05:43.200 and we have to ask ourselves why that is.

01:05:46.520 It's a very good point.

01:05:48.320 Megan, we're out of time, unfortunately,

01:05:49.900 so we've got just one more question for you.

01:05:52.800 And the question we always finish is,

01:05:55.440 what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society

01:05:58.560 that we really should be?

01:06:01.480 I don't know if there's a one thing,

01:06:04.560 but I mean, I really want to have more conversations about free speech.

01:06:10.180 And I know that a lot of people are talking about free speech.

01:06:13.200 But I will say that on the left and leftist circles, we are not talking about free speech.

01:06:19.060 We're not advocating for free speech.

01:06:21.720 And in fact, I think that in many ways we've rejected free speech as an important value

01:06:29.200 in a democratic society.

01:06:31.280 I think we need to be having more open conversations, more authentic conversations.

01:06:36.760 So, yeah, I mean, I can't say that's a one thing for society, but that's something that's

01:06:42.200 really important to me that i've been trying to push for and getting a lot of um pushback against

01:06:47.940 that unfortunately from from some of those around me yeah well that's no surprise to us right there

01:06:54.340 we have we have some similar experiences on that front as well

01:07:00.000 mega but thank you so much if people want to follow your work where do they go for all of that

01:07:05.520 um well unfortunately not on twitter

01:07:08.460 but i'm on i'm on instagram megan emily murphy uh i have a public facebook page uh feminist

01:07:18.540 current.com is my website and the same drugs is my youtube show slash podcast um so find me

01:07:27.020 everywhere but twitter sounds great well megan thank you so much for coming on the show and

01:07:32.660 thank you all for watching we will see you very very soon with a live stream or another brilliant

01:07:38.240 interview like this one take care enjoy the rest of the evening see you soon guys

TRIGGERnometry - May 24, 2020

＂Modern Feminism Involves Casual Man-Hating＂ - Meghan Murphy

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