TRIGGERnometry - My 3 Years Inside Jihadi Rehab - Meg Smaker

00:00:00.000 When I first heard about the rehab center, I was extremely skeptical.

00:00:05.680 It always struck me as strange, why would the most conservative country in the world

00:00:09.100 be running a progressive rehab program for extremists?

00:00:11.880 Like, that doesn't make sense to me.

00:00:13.460 What I realized, spending so much time there, is, number one,

00:00:19.200 the idea that all these men are hardened ideological, you know, soldiers is not true.

00:00:24.540 Two, there is a kind of, you know, bandwidth of like,

00:00:28.800 yeah, you have the leadership who definitely are a lot harder

00:00:32.880 to kind of get on board to this whole rehabilitation.

00:00:36.200 But the foot soldiers, some of the people that you see in the film

00:00:39.760 who aren't in that leadership, aren't in that kind of upper,

00:00:44.440 it's a little bit different.

00:00:46.540 I knew that this film was going to get attacked.

00:00:48.520 I didn't think it was going to be from the left, though.

00:00:50.260 I was pretty sure it was going to be from the right.

00:00:52.200 So if you can't even watch a two-hour film before chiming in,

00:00:55.340 if that's too much energy for you to do,

00:00:57.420 then you are not a journalist.

00:01:00.140 You are an activist that writes.

00:01:02.780 You are not a documentarian.

00:01:05.000 You're an activist with a camera.

00:01:06.920 If there's something in the film that is factually inaccurate 0.97

00:01:09.180 and that we fucked up, yes, I will.

00:01:11.180 When you do something wrong, you should apologize.

00:01:12.900 But for me, apologizing or apologies are not performative. 1.00

00:01:17.240 I'm not fucking apologizing for this shit 0.99

00:01:19.240 because there's nothing wrong with this film. 0.99

00:01:21.020 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:33.620 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:34.880 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:35.940 And this is a show for you

00:01:37.480 if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:41.420 Our brilliant guest today is probably like no one

00:01:44.100 we've had on the show before.

00:01:45.580 She's a documentary filmmaker who's made a movie 0.57

00:01:48.200 about the rehabilitation of some Guantanamo prisoners in Saudi Arabia

00:01:52.060 that no one for some reason wants to show.

00:01:54.240 Meg Smacker, welcome to Trigonometry. 0.71

00:01:55.760 Yeah, it's Smaker, by the way.

00:01:57.220 Smaker?

00:01:57.680 Yeah, it's okay. 1.00

00:01:59.060 I fucked up already. 0.99

00:02:00.160 There we go. 1.00

00:02:00.900 Don't say your terrorist buddies on me.

00:02:03.720 It's great to have you on the show, Meg Smaker.

00:02:05.680 I apologize for that.

00:02:06.540 I should have asked.

00:02:08.020 Before we get into the conversation

00:02:09.820 about your brilliant movie,

00:02:10.960 Francis and I both watched it last night

00:02:12.640 and really enjoyed it.

00:02:13.980 And I can't for the life of me

00:02:15.760 understand why people don't want to show it anyway.

00:02:17.840 We'll get into all that.

00:02:18.940 But before we do,

00:02:20.040 who are you?

00:02:20.720 How are you?

00:02:21.180 Where you are?

00:02:21.660 What has been the journey through life

00:02:23.040 that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:02:25.140 Oh, that's not a mouthful.

00:02:27.720 Tell me your life story and your purpose.

00:02:30.300 Two minutes flat.

00:02:31.540 Okay, so I'll do my best.

00:02:33.460 I am a documentary filmmaker,

00:02:34.840 but I wasn't always a documentary filmmaker.

00:02:37.200 For a long time ago,

00:02:39.100 in a former life,

00:02:40.600 I was a firefighter.

00:02:41.860 And I loved it

00:02:43.580 and thought I'd always be one.

00:02:45.360 And then 9-11 happened.

00:02:47.360 And my whole kind of world shifted.

00:02:51.580 And my dad always said

00:02:55.700 that there's pretty much

00:02:56.980 only three types of people in the world.

00:02:58.840 Those when you hit them,

00:03:00.080 they hit you right back. 0.69

00:03:01.320 Those when you hit them,

00:03:02.600 they run away.

00:03:03.700 And those when you hit them,

00:03:04.800 they ask,

00:03:05.420 why'd you hit me?

00:03:05.920 And I've always kind of been

00:03:07.620 in that third camp.

00:03:08.880 So after 9-11,

00:03:10.140 that was the question.

00:03:12.080 Why'd you hit me?

00:03:13.200 And I started to

00:03:14.400 kind of do research

00:03:15.900 and read books about Islam

00:03:17.000 and the history of the Middle East

00:03:18.900 and just watch the news ferociously.

00:03:22.720 And I began to see

00:03:24.100 that what I was seeing in the news

00:03:25.460 was directly contradicting

00:03:27.480 what I was reading about.

00:03:28.880 And I realized after a while

00:03:30.380 that both those sources of information

00:03:32.420 was through someone else's filter.

00:03:34.640 So I figured the only way

00:03:35.860 to remove that filter

00:03:36.840 was to like go

00:03:39.080 and get the information firsthand.

00:03:41.540 So about six months after 9-11,

00:03:42.980 I traveled to Afghanistan

00:03:43.880 to try to find those answers

00:03:45.580 for myself

00:03:46.160 and was immediately humbled

00:03:49.260 by my own ignorance of the world.

00:03:50.600 I don't,

00:03:50.920 do you remember what you were like

00:03:52.160 when you were in your early 20s?

00:03:53.640 Yes.

00:03:53.940 Yes.

00:03:54.940 I'd rather not.

00:03:56.060 That mindset.

00:03:57.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:58.560 You have this very self-assured

00:04:00.380 view of the world

00:04:00.980 and that all kind of came crumbling down

00:04:03.080 when I went to Afghanistan.

00:04:04.780 And that kind of sent me on a journey

00:04:06.360 to try to educate myself.

00:04:08.400 So I went back to the States.

00:04:10.100 It was a firefighter

00:04:10.740 for a little bit longer.

00:04:12.220 And then shortly after,

00:04:14.480 moved to the Middle East,

00:04:15.480 moved to Yemen,

00:04:16.200 lived there for almost five years,

00:04:17.500 studied Arabic and Islamic culture.

00:04:20.120 And while I was there,

00:04:21.160 I taught Yemeni men

00:04:21.980 how to fight fire

00:04:22.580 and then lived in Qatar for a year,

00:04:24.960 traveled all around the Middle East,

00:04:26.080 I think to every country

00:04:26.880 except for Syria and Kuwait.

00:04:29.200 And through those experiences,

00:04:32.040 decided that I wanted to change careers

00:04:34.560 from firefighting to filmmaking.

00:04:38.360 Because I was seeing,

00:04:39.900 the stories that I was seeing

00:04:40.860 and experiencing,

00:04:42.300 I didn't see represented

00:04:44.240 anywhere in mainstream media.

00:04:46.160 So I went back to the US,

00:04:48.880 went to Stanford

00:04:49.500 and got an MFA in documentary filmmaking.

00:04:51.480 And made a film

00:04:53.920 that won a Student Academy Award.

00:04:56.980 And then this is my next project

00:04:58.260 that just premiered at Sundance.

00:05:00.520 And yeah,

00:05:01.400 that is a cliff note version

00:05:02.760 I could possibly,

00:05:03.900 cliff note is,

00:05:04.700 that's not a word,

00:05:05.260 we're going to make it up,

00:05:06.140 the version I can possibly give you

00:05:07.580 about who I am

00:05:08.980 and why I'm here.

00:05:09.720 Well, it's a fascinating life story.

00:05:11.180 First of all,

00:05:11.740 you mentioned coming to Afghanistan

00:05:14.100 with a self-assured 1.00

00:05:15.640 but ignorant world view. 0.99

00:05:17.220 Yeah. 1.00

00:05:17.380 What did you learn there?

00:05:19.560 Well, I think for me,

00:05:21.400 the things that I had gotten

00:05:22.520 from our media was,

00:05:23.760 you know,

00:05:23.920 they hate us because of our freedom,

00:05:25.140 you're going to go over there

00:05:25.980 and these people are going to hate you 1.00

00:05:27.060 and try to kill you 1.00

00:05:27.900 or kidnap you. 1.00

00:05:28.820 And the opposite was true.

00:05:30.980 So for example,

00:05:32.100 I basically hitchhiked

00:05:33.820 across Afghanistan

00:05:34.780 and this family

00:05:36.500 in one of these villages

00:05:37.140 took me in

00:05:37.740 and clothed me,

00:05:39.400 fed me.

00:05:40.420 I didn't speak Pashtun,

00:05:42.100 they didn't speak English

00:05:42.960 but I have amazing charades

00:05:45.080 and pictionary skills

00:05:45.920 so we communicated

00:05:46.980 through that line

00:05:48.340 and I stayed with them

00:05:50.220 for a little bit

00:05:50.840 and one day we went out

00:05:52.520 and to the local market,

00:05:54.300 it was a very small village

00:05:55.260 and it was with the grandfather

00:05:56.800 and the grandson of the house

00:05:57.860 and we're walking through

00:05:59.860 and there's another guy

00:06:01.860 in the market

00:06:02.560 who started just shouting

00:06:04.120 at the top of his lungs at me

00:06:05.300 and waving his fist in the air.

00:06:07.360 I didn't know what he was saying

00:06:08.280 but I can pretty much

00:06:09.440 take his meaning

00:06:10.020 from his gestures

00:06:11.280 and his voice

00:06:13.200 that he, you know,

00:06:14.320 didn't want me there

00:06:15.100 and was very angry

00:06:15.820 because my country

00:06:16.600 was bombing his country

00:06:17.660 at that particular time.

00:06:19.980 The grandfather

00:06:20.740 that I was staying with

00:06:21.680 went up to the guy,

00:06:23.040 picked him up

00:06:23.420 by the scruff of the neck,

00:06:24.820 yelled at him,

00:06:25.680 put him down

00:06:26.160 and the guy walked over

00:06:27.080 and said,

00:06:28.320 sorry in Pashtun

00:06:29.180 and welcome to Afghanistan

00:06:30.280 in English.

00:06:30.880 Now, these guys

00:06:33.300 probably know each other

00:06:34.340 for decades.

00:06:35.480 It's a small village

00:06:36.260 and yet this person

00:06:38.300 welcomed me into his home,

00:06:40.380 defended me against

00:06:41.300 someone else in the village

00:06:42.340 who was angry

00:06:42.940 that I was there

00:06:43.920 and it just went

00:06:45.500 against everything

00:06:46.280 that I had been taught

00:06:47.960 about these people

00:06:49.760 from the media

00:06:51.040 and so I just realized

00:06:52.200 that my understanding

00:06:55.180 of the world

00:06:55.560 was very limited.

00:06:57.740 Does that make sense?

00:06:58.520 Yes.

00:06:58.700 Makes complete sense.

00:06:59.900 So what inspired you

00:07:01.080 to make the film?

00:07:03.960 Yeah, I mean,

00:07:04.740 I think it's a plethora

00:07:06.020 of things.

00:07:07.560 Tell everybody

00:07:08.240 what it's called

00:07:08.780 as well so they can...

00:07:09.740 So the original title

00:07:10.540 was Jihad Rehab

00:07:11.380 and it got changed

00:07:12.340 to The Unredacted.

00:07:13.760 So it's now

00:07:14.220 The Unredacted

00:07:14.960 and yeah,

00:07:17.240 it's a kind of

00:07:18.260 a plethora of things.

00:07:19.000 It's that question

00:07:19.580 I told you before

00:07:20.440 why they hit us,

00:07:21.100 try to understand

00:07:21.660 the why of it.

00:07:22.740 But also,

00:07:24.260 after Afghanistan,

00:07:25.580 I did a lot of traveling.

00:07:26.460 I had a lot of places

00:07:28.100 that usually people

00:07:28.960 don't travel to

00:07:29.920 like Somalia,

00:07:31.440 Afghanistan,

00:07:32.480 Iraq,

00:07:33.520 Colombia

00:07:33.840 and I met a lot

00:07:35.800 of people

00:07:36.340 who I think

00:07:37.620 a lot of us

00:07:38.540 think we know about

00:07:41.500 and have strong opinions of

00:07:42.620 but actually don't have

00:07:43.400 a lot of

00:07:43.920 one-on-one conversations with.

00:07:45.820 Meaning we talk

00:07:46.340 about these people

00:07:47.080 but we rarely talk

00:07:47.800 with them.

00:07:48.460 So for example,

00:07:49.060 I interviewed

00:07:49.600 pirates in Somalia,

00:07:51.620 warlords in Afghanistan,

00:07:53.580 rebels in Colombia

00:07:54.640 and yeah,

00:07:56.980 it just kind of

00:07:57.380 set me on a trajectory

00:07:58.240 to kind of,

00:07:59.440 there's this quote

00:08:00.100 from Dostoevsky

00:08:01.780 where it just,

00:08:03.700 it used to be in the film

00:08:04.400 but I took it out

00:08:05.040 and he says,

00:08:06.380 the easiest thing

00:08:08.760 in the world

00:08:09.260 is to denounce

00:08:10.460 the evildoer.

00:08:11.620 The most difficult

00:08:12.500 thing in the world

00:08:13.180 is to try to understand him

00:08:14.440 and that's what the film

00:08:15.940 is essentially trying to do.

00:08:18.020 To try to understand

00:08:18.760 these men

00:08:19.280 on a human level

00:08:20.540 if that makes sense.

00:08:21.700 That makes complete sense

00:08:22.660 and what you do

00:08:23.380 so beautifully

00:08:24.180 in the film

00:08:24.820 is because we all

00:08:25.680 have these stereotypes

00:08:26.560 of Islamic fundamentalists,

00:08:28.380 jihadists,

00:08:28.880 whatever you want

00:08:29.340 to call them

00:08:29.820 but you actually

00:08:31.560 get to understand them.

00:08:32.940 You humanize,

00:08:33.820 you humanize them beautifully

00:08:35.220 and you end up

00:08:36.560 sympathizing with them

00:08:37.880 and you get

00:08:38.880 a level of understanding.

00:08:41.140 Like,

00:08:41.500 the thing that struck me

00:08:43.280 about the film

00:08:43.920 is for many of these

00:08:45.480 particularly very young boys,

00:08:47.140 one of them was 16,

00:08:48.380 it's a search

00:08:49.160 for belonging.

00:08:49.860 Yeah,

00:08:50.720 I mean,

00:08:51.580 I think there's a,

00:08:52.740 at least for me anyway,

00:08:53.720 I interviewed over 150

00:08:55.080 of these guys

00:08:55.640 and after a while

00:08:58.240 I began to see a pattern

00:08:59.860 and as I was making

00:09:02.200 this film

00:09:02.780 it reminded me

00:09:03.460 of a story

00:09:04.140 my dad told me

00:09:04.720 about starfish

00:09:05.600 of all things

00:09:06.380 and he said

00:09:07.520 that there was

00:09:09.200 a fishing village

00:09:09.860 in Northern California

00:09:10.780 that had a problem

00:09:11.660 with invasive starfish.

00:09:13.080 One day,

00:09:13.720 the fishermen decide

00:09:14.380 to get together 0.99

00:09:14.940 and just kill 1.00

00:09:15.640 all the starfish 1.00

00:09:16.240 once and for all.

00:09:17.520 So they collect them up,

00:09:18.880 cut them into three,

00:09:19.460 four or five pieces

00:09:20.440 thinking the starfish

00:09:21.440 were dead.

00:09:22.560 They threw the pieces

00:09:23.120 back into the ocean

00:09:23.980 not knowing that starfish

00:09:25.320 regenerate.

00:09:26.280 So there was one before

00:09:27.180 now there's five.

00:09:28.780 The starfish population

00:09:29.700 exploded

00:09:30.240 and just devastated

00:09:31.620 the local fishing economy.

00:09:33.020 The moral of the story

00:09:33.560 being

00:09:33.840 when you try to fix

00:09:35.180 a problem

00:09:35.500 you do not understand

00:09:36.520 you usually make it worse.

00:09:38.640 Day after 9-11

00:09:39.580 most experts

00:09:40.980 put the number

00:09:41.800 of Al-Qaeda members

00:09:42.700 around 400.

00:09:44.040 Just before the pandemic

00:09:45.400 those same experts

00:09:46.480 put the number

00:09:47.060 around 100,000

00:09:47.960 including affiliate groups.

00:09:50.280 So basically

00:09:50.940 the U.S.

00:09:51.520 has been starfishing 1.00

00:09:52.200 the shit 1.00

00:09:52.620 of the Middle East 1.00

00:09:53.240 for the last two decades

00:09:54.100 and partly because

00:09:56.980 we don't understand.

00:09:59.100 We don't understand

00:09:59.900 these men.

00:10:00.680 We don't understand

00:10:01.080 their motivation

00:10:01.600 and I think

00:10:02.820 when you use

00:10:03.420 simplistic rhetoric

00:10:04.360 and you kind of

00:10:05.720 go off that

00:10:06.420 your decisions

00:10:07.120 are flawed.

00:10:08.900 So for example

00:10:09.480 in the film

00:10:10.160 like I talked about

00:10:11.040 there's

00:10:11.960 it's a film

00:10:13.480 about four guys

00:10:14.380 or four guys

00:10:14.940 it's a film about

00:10:15.460 a group of men

00:10:16.120 who spent 15 years

00:10:17.640 in Guantanamo

00:10:18.180 and then they're sent

00:10:19.720 to Saudi Arabia

00:10:20.540 to the world's first

00:10:21.340 rehabilitation center

00:10:22.280 for terrorists

00:10:22.900 and they're there

00:10:23.440 for about a year

00:10:24.820 year and a half

00:10:25.920 in the film

00:10:26.420 we follow them

00:10:26.880 for three years

00:10:27.500 a year and a half

00:10:28.180 in the rehab center

00:10:29.140 and then a year and a half

00:10:30.340 when they get out

00:10:30.840 and they try to find jobs

00:10:32.000 get married

00:10:33.240 have kids

00:10:33.920 start a family

00:10:34.520 and for me

00:10:36.720 the really interesting

00:10:38.260 thing about making

00:10:38.900 this film

00:10:39.460 is seeing a lot

00:10:40.820 of kind of

00:10:41.400 commonalities

00:10:42.080 between these men

00:10:43.200 and men that I know

00:10:45.440 in my own life

00:10:46.240 and seeing that

00:10:47.140 there's way more

00:10:48.640 in common

00:10:49.080 than we have

00:10:49.480 different

00:10:49.840 it does make sense

00:10:52.480 I think you're

00:10:53.260 about to ask

00:10:53.800 but what I really like

00:10:55.460 I actually would

00:10:55.940 disagree with Francis

00:10:56.740 to some extent

00:10:57.300 because while I

00:10:58.580 sympathize with

00:10:59.940 some of them

00:11:00.620 I also think

00:11:01.940 you do a very

00:11:02.560 good job

00:11:03.220 of not doing

00:11:04.740 this sort of like

00:11:05.800 oh they're all

00:11:06.760 just like us

00:11:07.520 and they're all

00:11:07.960 perfect little

00:11:08.680 precious little

00:11:09.380 flowers

00:11:09.860 because you talk

00:11:11.280 to a guy

00:11:11.700 who used to make

00:11:12.140 bombs for a living

00:11:12.920 and you talk

00:11:14.440 to a guy

00:11:14.900 who's clearly

00:11:15.740 clearly

00:11:16.560 what was the guy's

00:11:17.660 name?

00:11:17.900 The one that I said

00:11:18.580 earlier was really

00:11:19.400 scary

00:11:19.800 Oh Abuganam 1.00

00:11:20.620 Right

00:11:21.060 I mean that dude 0.99

00:11:22.840 is fucking terrifying 0.99

00:11:23.840 because he clearly 1.00

00:11:25.080 is very committed

00:11:26.460 to jihad

00:11:26.980 has absolutely

00:11:27.520 no intention

00:11:28.380 of reforming himself

00:11:29.780 or anything like that

00:11:30.700 and you show that

00:11:31.760 in the movie

00:11:32.220 so you're not

00:11:32.840 sort of going

00:11:33.640 over there

00:11:34.060 going oh I've

00:11:34.880 just realized

00:11:35.540 everyone is sweet

00:11:36.460 and perfect

00:11:37.000 you try to give

00:11:38.240 a rounded picture

00:11:39.020 that some of the

00:11:39.980 people who ended

00:11:40.640 up going through

00:11:42.500 by the way

00:11:42.920 and you emphasize

00:11:43.600 this I think

00:11:44.240 it's very important

00:11:44.900 to say

00:11:45.360 you know I'm

00:11:46.640 someone who's

00:11:47.240 just written a book

00:11:48.420 called An Immigrant's 0.82

00:11:49.300 Love Letter

00:11:49.620 to the West

00:11:50.180 I think

00:11:50.720 in my experience

00:11:52.700 the West

00:11:54.440 is a force

00:11:54.980 for good

00:11:55.440 generally speaking

00:11:56.400 doesn't mean

00:11:57.380 we don't make

00:11:57.840 mistakes of course

00:11:58.620 but in my lifetime

00:12:01.680 the first time

00:12:03.240 I looked at

00:12:03.860 the United States

00:12:04.620 and I went

00:12:05.100 you guys aren't

00:12:06.520 living up to

00:12:07.180 your own standards

00:12:08.600 that you preach

00:12:09.200 was Guantanamo Bay

00:12:10.120 right

00:12:10.700 because

00:12:11.360 okay 9-11

00:12:12.600 was an awful atrocity

00:12:14.300 it was an awful atrocity

00:12:15.740 but it doesn't

00:12:16.520 entitle you

00:12:17.160 to suspend

00:12:18.240 habeas corpus

00:12:19.200 it doesn't entitle you

00:12:20.120 to just imprison

00:12:21.020 people 15 years

00:12:22.000 without charge

00:12:22.720 etc

00:12:23.100 and this is what

00:12:24.440 these guys went through

00:12:25.540 and some of them

00:12:26.720 probably were

00:12:27.600 completely innocent

00:12:28.360 or close to

00:12:29.160 completely innocent

00:12:29.800 others were

00:12:30.420 hardened terrorists

00:12:31.080 and you show

00:12:31.580 both of those

00:12:32.220 Broadway's smash hit

00:12:34.340 the Neil Diamond musical

00:12:35.640 A Beautiful Noise

00:12:37.020 is coming to Toronto

00:12:38.500 the true story

00:12:39.540 of a kid from Brooklyn

00:12:40.600 destined for something more

00:12:42.120 featuring all the songs

00:12:43.280 you love

00:12:43.900 including America

00:12:45.020 Forever in Blue Jeans

00:12:46.360 and Sweet Caroline

00:12:47.560 like Jersey Boys 0.86

00:12:49.000 and Beautiful

00:12:49.600 the next musical

00:12:50.780 mega hit is here

00:12:51.920 the Neil Diamond musical

00:12:53.420 A Beautiful Noise

00:12:54.780 April 28th

00:12:55.840 through June 7th

00:12:56.840 2026

00:12:57.780 the Princess of Wales Theatre

00:12:59.380 get tickets at

00:13:00.560 mirvish.com

00:13:01.680 yeah I think that

00:13:03.560 the thing about

00:13:04.420 this particular film

00:13:05.300 is there have been

00:13:06.720 quite a lot of people

00:13:07.960 who've gone to Afghanistan

00:13:09.200 who had absolutely

00:13:11.120 nothing to do

00:13:11.920 with any terrorist group

00:13:13.400 and it was literally

00:13:15.460 a wrong place

00:13:16.200 wrong time

00:13:16.820 and there's been

00:13:17.320 quite a few films

00:13:18.160 and sort of stories

00:13:20.200 and articles on that

00:13:21.120 but what I wanted to do

00:13:22.740 with this film

00:13:23.380 is men who

00:13:25.020 from their own mouth

00:13:26.400 talk about being

00:13:28.020 involved in these groups

00:13:28.820 in a plethora of different ways

00:13:30.240 in a plethora of different levels

00:13:31.240 so for example

00:13:31.860 you have someone like Ali

00:13:33.500 who went to

00:13:34.860 an Al Qaeda training camp

00:13:36.100 and was there for

00:13:36.640 two three weeks

00:13:37.360 and then 9-11 happened

00:13:39.180 they got picked up

00:13:40.400 and sent to Guantanamo

00:13:41.640 when he was 16

00:13:42.380 and didn't get out

00:13:43.640 until he was almost 32

00:13:44.680 and then you have

00:13:46.200 someone like Khaled

00:13:47.280 who you know

00:13:48.940 was one of the lead

00:13:50.060 bomb makers

00:13:50.820 and bomb instructors

00:13:51.600 for Al Qaeda

00:13:52.140 and so there's a huge

00:13:55.100 like differences

00:13:56.240 in level of culpability

00:13:57.320 and level of involvement

00:13:58.840 and it like talks about

00:14:00.800 or explores some of

00:14:01.840 the nuance of that

00:14:02.480 for example

00:14:03.040 the word sex offender

00:14:04.520 you say that

00:14:05.680 it's a very charged word

00:14:06.620 but a sex offender

00:14:07.240 can qualify someone as

00:14:08.560 in the United States

00:14:09.660 if you're 18 years old

00:14:11.040 and you sleep with a 16 year old

00:14:13.140 it could also describe

00:14:14.620 someone like Harvey Weinstein

00:14:15.620 and those things

00:14:16.480 are very far apart

00:14:17.540 and so when you're

00:14:18.560 watching the movie

00:14:19.360 not only does it

00:14:20.460 kind of dive into

00:14:21.620 like the different motivations

00:14:22.600 the different levels

00:14:23.660 of involvement

00:14:24.320 and how using a word

00:14:25.600 like terrorist

00:14:26.260 to describe all these men

00:14:27.720 is actually really

00:14:29.580 kind of dumbing down

00:14:30.340 the conversation

00:14:31.000 because it's way more

00:14:31.680 complex and nuanced

00:14:32.580 than that

00:14:33.000 yeah

00:14:33.300 and you said

00:14:34.700 that we don't understand

00:14:36.680 and you've said it

00:14:38.440 a couple of times

00:14:39.100 what don't we understand

00:14:40.480 Meg

00:14:40.740 what are the things

00:14:41.540 that people need to learn

00:14:42.940 and need to understand

00:14:44.080 who are not aware of this

00:14:45.580 well I can't talk

00:14:46.760 for the UK

00:14:47.220 but I think in the States

00:14:48.480 the narrative

00:14:49.000 has been quite simplistic

00:14:50.040 for example

00:14:50.940 it's all because of the religion 0.95

00:14:52.920 or they hate us

00:14:54.120 because our freedoms

00:14:54.880 very like simplistic rhetoric

00:14:56.980 when you look at the film

00:14:59.260 like I said

00:14:59.720 I interviewed 150 of these guys

00:15:01.400 and the reason why

00:15:02.760 there's four characters

00:15:03.620 in the film

00:15:04.260 is because each

00:15:05.480 after I interviewed

00:15:06.320 so many of them

00:15:06.940 I started to see a pattern

00:15:07.860 and they would fall

00:15:09.040 into one of four motivations

00:15:10.300 about why they got

00:15:11.140 into these groups

00:15:11.840 there was exceptions

00:15:13.600 of course

00:15:14.140 as there always is

00:15:15.180 but it would be

00:15:16.480 one of these four things

00:15:17.460 and that's why

00:15:17.820 there's four characters

00:15:18.540 because each one

00:15:19.220 of the subjects

00:15:20.000 of the film

00:15:20.460 represent a different motivation

00:15:21.920 the one that I think

00:15:23.780 most Americans

00:15:24.840 at least are familiar with

00:15:25.820 is the cause

00:15:26.580 so that's Abuganum

00:15:28.200 right

00:15:28.480 he thinks it's his

00:15:29.940 religious duty

00:15:30.600 to go and defend

00:15:31.520 his fellow Muslims

00:15:32.660 he got into this

00:15:33.480 because of Bosnia 0.96

00:15:34.380 he was living in Yemen

00:15:35.800 about to go to college

00:15:37.000 he saw the Bosnian war

00:15:38.380 happening

00:15:38.800 and thought that

00:15:41.240 you know

00:15:41.500 no one's there

00:15:42.060 helping my fellow Muslims

00:15:43.460 it's my duty

00:15:44.540 my religious duty

00:15:45.300 to go do that

00:15:45.980 but the other three

00:15:47.320 have absolutely nothing

00:15:48.140 to do with religion

00:15:48.860 I think this is where

00:15:49.840 the dialogue kind of stops

00:15:51.320 at least in the United States

00:15:52.560 the second motivation

00:15:54.520 is economic necessity

00:15:56.100 that's not her 0.97

00:15:57.280 right

00:15:57.660 so he's like

00:15:58.280 I need a job

00:15:59.460 I need money

00:16:00.460 this is a career

00:16:01.480 and it became a career

00:16:02.180 for him

00:16:02.560 then you have

00:16:03.900 the third motivation

00:16:04.660 is peer pressure

00:16:05.360 that's Ali

00:16:06.220 his older brother

00:16:06.940 was in this

00:16:07.580 he said hey

00:16:08.500 come to the training camp

00:16:09.400 I'm a trainer here

00:16:10.100 and he came over

00:16:10.800 and decided to

00:16:12.640 to do a two week

00:16:14.320 training

00:16:14.600 three week training course

00:16:16.360 I want to say

00:16:16.740 before 9-11 happened

00:16:17.660 and then the last one

00:16:19.060 is more age dependent

00:16:20.540 more for the younger guys

00:16:21.560 and that's sense of adventure

00:16:23.020 and that's Mohammed

00:16:24.080 right

00:16:24.440 he says you know

00:16:24.960 I was 19

00:16:25.800 I was bored

00:16:27.060 I didn't want to go to school

00:16:28.220 I didn't want to work

00:16:29.000 this guy offered me

00:16:29.580 a free ticket to Afghanistan

00:16:30.580 and shoot rockets

00:16:31.420 so why not

00:16:32.740 and they all

00:16:36.040 were also searching

00:16:37.140 for a sense of belonging

00:16:38.180 and a sense of purpose

00:16:39.040 and that was also

00:16:40.060 a commonality as well

00:16:41.040 but what I found interesting

00:16:43.140 after talking to a lot

00:16:44.040 of these people

00:16:44.580 is

00:16:45.180 have you ever heard

00:16:47.780 of a book called

00:16:48.300 Tribe

00:16:48.720 by Sebastian Junger

00:16:50.380 no

00:16:51.400 he did a film

00:16:53.340 called Restrepo

00:16:54.060 where he was embedded

00:16:55.260 with a bunch of Marines

00:16:56.480 during the Afghan war

00:16:57.960 and it was

00:16:58.980 one of the bloodiest

00:17:00.240 outposts

00:17:00.760 in the military

00:17:01.860 out there

00:17:02.280 for the US military

00:17:03.020 and reading

00:17:04.960 doing a lot of research

00:17:05.800 for the film

00:17:07.060 I read a lot of books

00:17:07.980 about vets

00:17:09.260 and military

00:17:09.800 and things like that

00:17:10.460 and I began to like

00:17:11.700 both read

00:17:13.000 and from friends of mine

00:17:14.080 who were in the military

00:17:14.680 see a lot of commonalities

00:17:15.780 between the two

00:17:16.340 so for example

00:17:17.240 when you're talking

00:17:17.720 about those four causes

00:17:18.640 I know a lot of men

00:17:20.500 who joined the military

00:17:21.660 right after 9-11

00:17:22.620 the cause

00:17:23.780 right

00:17:24.360 people like me

00:17:25.880 who don't have

00:17:26.260 like come from

00:17:26.940 loads of money

00:17:27.500 and university

00:17:28.460 in the United States

00:17:29.080 is quite expensive

00:17:29.840 go join the military

00:17:31.760 to help pay for school

00:17:32.640 right

00:17:33.320 economic necessity

00:17:34.140 a lot of friends of mine

00:17:36.580 come from military families

00:17:37.960 dad, uncles, brothers

00:17:39.360 all in the military

00:17:40.120 peer pressure

00:17:40.780 and a lot of people

00:17:43.120 who

00:17:43.400 and they even advertise this

00:17:44.440 in a lot of the

00:17:45.460 adverts for the military

00:17:46.860 is

00:17:47.160 it's an adventure

00:17:48.280 it goes through the world

00:17:49.000 travel the world

00:17:49.700 and if you don't have

00:17:50.740 disposable income

00:17:51.500 that's a good way to do it

00:17:53.100 and so

00:17:53.580 what I realized

00:17:54.780 it wasn't about

00:17:55.520 good and evil

00:17:56.780 it's about time

00:17:57.620 and circumstance

00:17:58.180 and what time

00:17:59.360 and circumstance

00:17:59.980 did you live in

00:18:00.840 that led you

00:18:02.720 to a certain

00:18:03.260 decision making process

00:18:04.480 I hear you

00:18:06.580 I quibble

00:18:08.460 with the idea

00:18:09.160 of there not being

00:18:10.440 good and evil

00:18:11.060 to that extent

00:18:11.660 because I think

00:18:12.240 there is a difference

00:18:12.960 the motivations

00:18:13.580 may be similar

00:18:14.220 but there's a difference

00:18:14.940 between hijacking

00:18:16.760 a civilian plane

00:18:17.620 and flying it

00:18:18.340 into buildings

00:18:19.060 yeah

00:18:19.600 I'm not saying

00:18:20.280 that's similar

00:18:20.940 I'm just saying

00:18:21.560 the motivations

00:18:22.080 to go into this

00:18:22.980 are quite

00:18:23.340 yeah but I think

00:18:24.060 the reason people

00:18:24.880 would make the distinction

00:18:25.900 between good and evil

00:18:26.920 is if you go and join

00:18:28.060 your country's military

00:18:28.880 because for the same

00:18:30.320 with the same motivation

00:18:31.600 the military will do

00:18:33.180 lots of bad things

00:18:34.020 but most of them

00:18:34.860 will be by accident

00:18:35.620 they're not going to

00:18:36.220 deliberately target civilians

00:18:37.660 whereas with the terrorism issue

00:18:40.160 I think that's where

00:18:41.100 a lot of people's

00:18:42.100 instinctive like

00:18:43.180 this is just pure evil

00:18:44.640 thing comes in

00:18:45.340 which is

00:18:45.760 you've got people

00:18:46.600 you know

00:18:47.440 and it's interesting

00:18:48.200 it's quite shocking

00:18:48.860 watching the movie

00:18:50.180 where you hear these guys

00:18:51.560 talking about

00:18:52.360 watching 9-11 happen

00:18:54.460 yeah

00:18:54.840 and one of them

00:18:55.720 at the beginning

00:18:56.260 of the movie

00:18:56.820 goes

00:18:57.160 oh it's just a building

00:18:58.300 build a new one

00:18:59.000 yeah

00:18:59.280 because these people

00:19:00.380 don't even

00:19:00.900 at that point

00:19:02.360 really think about

00:19:03.240 what it is

00:19:04.200 that's happened

00:19:04.760 and for some of them

00:19:06.300 it was only later

00:19:07.000 when they saw it

00:19:07.960 and they saw people

00:19:08.660 jumping out

00:19:09.380 when they were confronted

00:19:10.520 with the true horror of it

00:19:11.780 and I think that's where

00:19:13.040 you know

00:19:13.820 for me at least

00:19:14.840 personally

00:19:15.400 the line

00:19:17.020 I don't think

00:19:17.760 I want to blow

00:19:18.320 that line for me

00:19:19.180 you know

00:19:19.700 there's a difference

00:19:20.420 between 9-11

00:19:21.240 and joining

00:19:22.060 the US military

00:19:22.840 you know

00:19:23.640 yeah

00:19:24.080 there's a difference

00:19:24.800 9-11

00:19:25.640 and joining

00:19:26.340 the US military

00:19:27.140 but

00:19:27.700 I would say

00:19:29.380 that like

00:19:29.960 when you're talking

00:19:31.160 about body count

00:19:32.000 you have

00:19:34.780 over 3,000 people

00:19:36.360 died on 9-11

00:19:37.100 the war on terror

00:19:38.800 has gone on

00:19:39.260 for two decades

00:19:40.320 and hundreds

00:19:41.340 and thousands

00:19:42.040 of people have died

00:19:42.820 so

00:19:44.200 I think

00:19:46.260 the line

00:19:47.340 that you're drawing

00:19:47.960 and the line

00:19:48.540 that I would say

00:19:49.060 that I'm drawing

00:19:49.780 as well

00:19:50.260 is the film

00:19:51.140 is not saying

00:19:51.880 that these men

00:19:52.320 are right

00:19:52.700 they're not saying

00:19:53.240 they're wrong

00:19:53.700 it's not trying

00:19:54.380 to sympathize

00:19:55.000 with us

00:19:55.300 and this is what

00:19:55.960 I want to be clear on

00:19:56.680 there's a difference

00:19:57.800 between sympathy

00:19:58.560 and empathy

00:19:59.220 and empathy

00:20:00.260 is just

00:20:00.540 we're trying

00:20:00.840 to understand them

00:20:01.640 and I think

00:20:02.940 a lot of times

00:20:03.820 in the US

00:20:04.460 people conflate that

00:20:05.640 for example

00:20:07.020 like I think

00:20:07.820 that just the act

00:20:09.480 of trying to understand

00:20:10.540 someone's point of view

00:20:11.300 that you don't agree with

00:20:12.780 which I love doing

00:20:13.900 doesn't mean

00:20:15.640 that you actually

00:20:16.300 sympathize with that person

00:20:17.340 just trying to understand

00:20:18.400 where they're coming from

00:20:19.700 and so I would say

00:20:20.640 that the film

00:20:21.640 walks this line

00:20:22.420 between trying

00:20:23.920 to understand them

00:20:24.540 but not quite

00:20:25.160 sympathizing with them

00:20:26.040 and to your point

00:20:26.740 I think

00:20:27.200 that it's okay

00:20:28.380 to draw lines

00:20:29.420 of commonality

00:20:30.620 to help you

00:20:31.240 understand something

00:20:32.160 but you're not

00:20:33.020 necessarily drawing

00:20:33.800 that line

00:20:34.120 saying they're identical

00:20:34.900 they're similar

00:20:35.420 they're the same

00:20:35.980 right

00:20:36.400 clearly

00:20:37.240 when you

00:20:38.060 intentionally target

00:20:39.200 civilians

00:20:39.660 right

00:20:40.640 that's very different

00:20:41.500 than when you're

00:20:43.260 you know

00:20:43.740 bombing like military targets

00:20:46.840 so I had this long

00:20:47.960 conversation with Khaled

00:20:48.840 and for him

00:20:49.420 the reason why

00:20:50.120 I became a bomb maker

00:20:50.940 is because he had a degree

00:20:52.000 in electrical engineering

00:20:52.920 and so the way

00:20:54.340 he described it to me

00:20:55.140 is that when they do

00:20:55.880 an intake interview

00:20:56.800 in Al-Qaeda

00:20:57.620 in Al-Farouq

00:20:58.400 based on your level

00:21:00.760 of education

00:21:01.400 your level of intelligence

00:21:03.600 your background

00:21:05.740 you go into

00:21:06.280 one of three categories

00:21:07.180 in terms of

00:21:08.380 you're either

00:21:08.700 you're a planner

00:21:09.420 you're an operator

00:21:10.260 or you're an executioner

00:21:11.460 in terms of like

00:21:12.360 you're the one

00:21:12.680 they strapped the bomb too

00:21:13.560 so clearly Khaled

00:21:16.700 was quite intelligent

00:21:17.720 and smart 0.77

00:21:18.100 so he wasn't

00:21:18.720 that wasn't his

00:21:19.360 his job

00:21:20.020 but yeah

00:21:20.440 he did train people

00:21:21.160 how to make bombs

00:21:21.840 for sure

00:21:22.240 so there's a very

00:21:23.980 clear structure

00:21:24.760 and the most malleable

00:21:26.400 the most vulnerable

00:21:27.360 would be the ones

00:21:28.480 who do the deed

00:21:30.420 as it were

00:21:31.040 yeah

00:21:31.480 yeah

00:21:32.480 I would say that

00:21:33.340 like when I was talking

00:21:34.100 to Khaled

00:21:34.540 and some of the other guys

00:21:35.320 during that intake interview

00:21:37.000 if you were seen

00:21:37.700 as having like

00:21:38.440 a lower

00:21:39.160 intelligence level

00:21:40.620 or not as much education

00:21:41.860 then they would put you

00:21:43.080 on those lower levels

00:21:43.900 to be the ones

00:21:45.300 that you would have

00:21:46.000 that either have the bomb

00:21:46.960 or a lot of these guys

00:21:48.580 volunteered for it as well

00:21:49.580 so according to Khaled

00:21:51.200 there was like a list

00:21:52.000 of 200 people

00:21:53.400 and I think he mentions it

00:21:54.440 in the film

00:21:54.820 yeah

00:21:55.060 so and is that because

00:21:57.900 they

00:21:58.860 it's easier to manipulate

00:22:00.600 that type of person

00:22:01.780 and get them to do

00:22:02.740 what you want

00:22:03.280 or is it just because

00:22:04.100 they see these people

00:22:04.960 as load skilled

00:22:05.780 and therefore expendable

00:22:07.220 well I

00:22:08.380 don't want to put words

00:22:10.120 in people's mouths

00:22:10.780 because I've actually

00:22:11.420 not interviewed

00:22:12.960 any of those people

00:22:13.980 but I would

00:22:14.580 I would say that

00:22:15.700 it seemed to

00:22:16.560 from the description

00:22:17.460 that I've gotten

00:22:18.980 from a lot of these guys

00:22:20.560 that it was actually

00:22:21.540 very organized

00:22:22.480 in that aspect

00:22:23.320 so if you came in

00:22:25.160 for example

00:22:25.660 and you had

00:22:26.560 a level of English

00:22:28.360 yeah

00:22:28.780 right

00:22:29.240 we could then use you

00:22:30.820 in the PR department

00:22:32.480 so for example

00:22:33.600 ISIS had some

00:22:34.860 pretty good videos

00:22:35.800 in terms of the

00:22:36.620 production quality

00:22:37.420 in terms of like

00:22:38.200 compared to earlier

00:22:39.300 versions of it

00:22:39.940 there's actually a book

00:22:40.840 that is

00:22:42.720 I forget the name of it

00:22:44.100 but one of the chapter

00:22:44.900 is cinematography

00:22:46.360 cinematography

00:22:47.360 for terrorists

00:22:48.520 and basically

00:22:49.040 it talks about

00:22:49.640 some of the tropes

00:22:50.220 they use

00:22:50.620 in order to

00:22:51.300 give certain

00:22:53.360 emotional resonance

00:22:54.900 with young men

00:22:56.200 so this is actually

00:22:57.300 quite well organized

00:22:59.600 and quite thorough

00:23:01.840 organization

00:23:02.500 yeah

00:23:03.060 and the thing

00:23:03.660 that was interesting

00:23:04.280 about the film

00:23:04.900 is you

00:23:05.420 the first part of it

00:23:06.800 where you were looking

00:23:07.640 at the rehab facility

00:23:08.700 let's just call it that

00:23:09.780 and everything that was

00:23:11.580 happening

00:23:12.000 that was happening

00:23:12.880 there

00:23:13.160 it felt very positive

00:23:15.380 but then when they

00:23:16.140 reintegrated into society

00:23:17.680 you saw that

00:23:18.540 for the vast majority

00:23:19.960 of these men

00:23:20.540 it was impossible

00:23:21.600 to reintegrate

00:23:22.680 I think that had more

00:23:26.020 to do

00:23:26.720 with the timing

00:23:27.740 of when they

00:23:28.940 graduated

00:23:29.460 right

00:23:30.040 so before

00:23:31.520 when the center

00:23:33.540 was run by

00:23:34.340 Mohammed bin Naif 0.99

00:23:35.400 and this was his

00:23:36.140 pet project

00:23:36.720 right

00:23:36.960 he literally

00:23:38.460 invented these centers

00:23:40.020 and

00:23:40.700 Mohammed bin Naif 0.99

00:23:42.160 just to clarify

00:23:42.740 for the audience

00:23:43.360 and the listeners

00:23:44.080 was

00:23:44.440 sorry he was

00:23:45.280 the previous

00:23:45.800 crown prince

00:23:47.080 he was going

00:23:47.600 to be king

00:23:48.140 of Saudi Arabia

00:23:48.740 when the current

00:23:49.340 king died

00:23:49.840 and then he got

00:23:50.440 replaced by

00:23:51.300 no no no

00:23:52.300 so the current

00:23:53.240 king was alive

00:23:53.900 and is still alive

00:23:55.320 but Mohammed bin Naif

00:23:56.900 was the crown prince

00:23:57.740 which means second

00:23:58.340 it's like their

00:23:58.940 vice president

00:23:59.440 second command

00:24:00.120 and so

00:24:01.340 when the current

00:24:02.860 king died

00:24:03.840 he was supposed

00:24:04.340 to take over

00:24:04.980 that's what I mean

00:24:05.560 yeah

00:24:05.780 but instead of that

00:24:07.360 he got replaced

00:24:08.040 by Mohammed bin Salman

00:24:09.560 exactly

00:24:09.980 and so

00:24:11.080 typically

00:24:12.880 like when you have

00:24:14.380 a change of leadership

00:24:15.220 you also have a change

00:24:16.460 of priorities

00:24:17.080 so for example

00:24:18.420 in the US

00:24:19.160 you had Obama

00:24:20.160 signing the Paris Accord

00:24:21.680 and he was like

00:24:22.500 we're all about

00:24:23.040 the environment

00:24:23.540 Trump comes in

00:24:24.380 we're like

00:24:24.660 we're not doing that anymore

00:24:25.720 similar in Saudi Arabia

00:24:27.800 where you had

00:24:28.280 Mohammed bin Naif 0.99

00:24:28.900 this was his pet project

00:24:29.900 he literally met

00:24:30.660 almost every graduate

00:24:31.540 who like

00:24:32.840 left the center

00:24:33.720 he went to some

00:24:34.380 of their weddings

00:24:34.940 he was very involved

00:24:36.760 in this process

00:24:37.700 where the new crown prince

00:24:39.520 it just wasn't

00:24:40.980 on the top priority

00:24:41.980 for him

00:24:42.440 so these guys

00:24:43.200 typically would have

00:24:44.280 gotten jobs

00:24:45.860 and things like this

00:24:46.660 but because of the

00:24:47.720 transition in power

00:24:48.740 they kind of fell

00:24:49.280 through the cracks

00:24:49.840 and were left

00:24:50.280 to their own devices

00:24:51.060 unfortunately

00:24:51.640 yeah

00:24:52.040 and one of the

00:24:53.440 fascinating things

00:24:54.440 about seeing

00:24:55.700 because you spent

00:24:56.760 three years

00:24:57.640 with these guys

00:24:58.980 right

00:24:59.240 yeah

00:24:59.420 inside this facility

00:25:00.520 and this facility

00:25:01.160 is called

00:25:01.440 the Care Rehabilitation Center

00:25:03.200 yeah

00:25:03.560 it's called

00:25:04.180 well it was

00:25:05.200 they changed the name

00:25:05.900 recently

00:25:06.220 but it was called

00:25:06.800 the Mohammed bin Naif

00:25:07.700 Care

00:25:08.240 Counseling and Care Center

00:25:09.940 yeah

00:25:10.300 or the rehab center

00:25:11.660 and what was incredible

00:25:13.000 is you're watching

00:25:13.720 these guys

00:25:14.440 who spent

00:25:15.320 some of them

00:25:15.840 15 years in Guantanamo

00:25:17.180 they've clearly been tortured

00:25:18.660 they've been through

00:25:19.180 horrific ordeals in there

00:25:20.560 and here they are

00:25:21.860 these are

00:25:22.600 according to our

00:25:23.860 Western worldview 0.98

00:25:25.020 these are evil terrorists 0.98

00:25:26.360 and they've got like 1.00

00:25:27.460 a swimming pool

00:25:28.420 sauna

00:25:29.200 daily classes

00:25:30.620 on how to

00:25:31.540 how to think

00:25:32.740 they're teaching them

00:25:33.700 critical thinking

00:25:34.660 they're teaching them

00:25:35.620 social skills

00:25:36.420 they're teaching them

00:25:37.160 I like

00:25:38.220 I found it quite funny

00:25:39.320 the scene where

00:25:39.880 he's teaching them

00:25:40.860 how to deal with women 1.00

00:25:41.780 yeah

00:25:42.080 he's like

00:25:42.520 you must compliment

00:25:43.420 the smell of the meal

00:25:44.800 well what you have to understand

00:25:47.720 you're not integrating them

00:25:48.820 into Western society

00:25:50.200 they've got their own standards

00:25:51.440 yeah I did take a few notes

00:25:52.780 I was like

00:25:53.060 good point

00:25:53.520 good point

00:25:54.060 good point

00:25:54.640 yes I'm going to

00:25:55.240 incorporate that

00:25:55.980 but they're great scenes

00:25:56.880 because you see

00:25:57.920 the world these guys

00:25:58.880 are coming from

00:25:59.440 and the world

00:25:59.880 that they're going back into

00:26:00.860 hopefully

00:26:01.500 right

00:26:02.260 and that was

00:26:04.160 eye opening as well

00:26:05.560 because you're seeing

00:26:06.460 people who are

00:26:07.180 the evilest of the evil 0.67

00:26:08.920 the vilest of the vile

00:26:10.600 the vile

00:26:11.480 being treated

00:26:12.220 humanely

00:26:13.360 and some of them

00:26:14.820 at least

00:26:15.300 are actually benefiting

00:26:16.500 from the process

00:26:17.240 and a lot of them

00:26:18.460 you know

00:26:19.080 they claim to have

00:26:19.940 an 85% success rate

00:26:21.340 so it is possible

00:26:22.440 because we had

00:26:23.000 a guy called

00:26:24.320 Eamon Dean

00:26:24.900 on the show

00:26:25.320 who's a former

00:26:26.340 Al Qaeda double agent

00:26:27.640 and he said

00:26:29.180 like you can't really

00:26:30.420 rehabilitate terrorists

00:26:31.620 like it's very

00:26:32.860 very difficult

00:26:33.480 but clearly this program

00:26:34.840 was having good success

00:26:36.440 it wasn't universally successful

00:26:38.040 but it was having good success

00:26:39.220 and it was fascinating

00:26:41.020 to see

00:26:41.740 these people

00:26:43.080 being treated well

00:26:43.940 did you find that

00:26:45.420 quite like a shock

00:26:46.960 or was that natural

00:26:48.400 like how did you find that?

00:26:50.380 so when I first

00:26:51.780 heard about the rehab center

00:26:53.760 I was extremely skeptical

00:26:56.020 right

00:26:56.760 for three reasons

00:26:57.860 number one

00:26:58.460 it always struck me

00:26:59.940 as strange

00:27:00.600 why would the most

00:27:01.360 conservative country

00:27:02.260 in the world

00:27:02.600 be running a progressive

00:27:03.860 rehab program

00:27:04.640 for extremists

00:27:05.300 like that doesn't

00:27:06.100 make sense to me

00:27:06.860 two

00:27:07.720 again Saudi Arabia

00:27:08.600 is not known

00:27:09.120 for its human rights record

00:27:10.200 three

00:27:11.800 she's a diplomat

00:27:12.800 I mean that

00:27:15.340 is putting it mildly

00:27:16.640 very mildly

00:27:17.480 well you know

00:27:18.640 three

00:27:19.820 I think that like

00:27:20.740 for me

00:27:21.460 a lot of the things

00:27:22.360 that I've seen

00:27:23.680 from the Saudi government

00:27:24.680 especially in the press

00:27:25.700 I kind of take

00:27:26.540 with a grain of salt

00:27:27.400 and so I

00:27:29.440 before I went

00:27:29.900 to the rehab center

00:27:30.520 I reached out

00:27:31.600 to all the journalists

00:27:32.640 that I could

00:27:33.120 that had been there

00:27:33.900 before

00:27:34.320 and asked about

00:27:35.020 their experience

00:27:35.640 and they kind of

00:27:36.160 all said the same thing

00:27:37.040 they're going to take you

00:27:38.240 give you like

00:27:38.720 an hour powerpoint

00:27:39.600 do a dog and pony show

00:27:40.640 they'll give you

00:27:41.180 two hours their tops

00:27:42.100 but they're pretty much

00:27:43.480 not going to really

00:27:44.260 learn anything

00:27:44.880 new that we haven't covered

00:27:46.360 and when I told them

00:27:48.100 I wanted to do

00:27:48.540 a documentary there

00:27:49.200 they all like

00:27:49.940 laughed at me

00:27:51.320 over the phone

00:27:51.840 but what you have

00:27:53.900 to understand

00:27:54.340 is like

00:27:54.900 the origin story

00:27:57.080 of the center

00:27:58.000 is quite

00:27:59.400 interesting

00:28:00.320 and once you know

00:28:01.340 that

00:28:01.720 then it makes sense

00:28:02.760 why the Saudis 1.00

00:28:03.440 are doing this

00:28:04.040 but when I first

00:28:05.000 got there

00:28:05.500 I was extremely

00:28:06.120 skeptical

00:28:06.540 about this place

00:28:07.960 because again

00:28:09.200 the idea that I had

00:28:11.240 is these were like

00:28:11.920 really hardened criminals

00:28:13.200 right

00:28:13.640 and they were super

00:28:15.380 into the ideology

00:28:16.660 and there's no way

00:28:18.620 doing art therapy

00:28:19.900 and you know

00:28:21.260 teaching them

00:28:22.380 how to you know

00:28:23.040 balance a checkbook

00:28:23.980 is going to somehow

00:28:25.060 reverse that

00:28:26.300 but what I realized

00:28:27.980 spending so much time

00:28:29.620 there

00:28:29.940 is number one

00:28:31.980 the idea

00:28:33.300 that all these men

00:28:34.060 are hardened

00:28:34.520 ideological

00:28:35.160 you know

00:28:36.600 soldiers

00:28:36.920 is not true

00:28:37.600 two

00:28:39.340 there is a

00:28:40.820 kind of

00:28:41.440 you know

00:28:42.320 bandwidth of like

00:28:43.200 yeah you have

00:28:43.660 you have the leadership

00:28:44.620 who definitely

00:28:46.020 what the guy

00:28:47.140 was talking about

00:28:47.820 before

00:28:48.140 are a lot harder

00:28:49.380 to kind of

00:28:50.500 get on board

00:28:51.040 to this whole

00:28:51.460 rehabilitation

00:28:51.880 but the foot soldiers

00:28:54.000 some of the people

00:28:55.180 that you see in the film

00:28:56.260 who aren't in that

00:28:58.160 leadership

00:28:58.520 aren't in that

00:28:59.240 kind of

00:28:59.920 upper

00:29:00.780 it's a little bit

00:29:01.840 different

00:29:02.300 so for example

00:29:04.240 you were talking

00:29:05.580 about classes

00:29:06.300 like

00:29:06.880 finding a wife

00:29:08.000 right

00:29:08.620 so

00:29:09.820 for guys

00:29:11.220 that

00:29:11.620 the center

00:29:12.260 calls the normal

00:29:13.020 terrorists

00:29:13.480 the ones that

00:29:13.980 they catch

00:29:14.420 going back and forth

00:29:15.560 between Syria

00:29:16.280 and Iraq

00:29:18.220 and Saudi Arabia

00:29:19.260 to join ISIS 0.76

00:29:20.080 or Al Qaeda

00:29:20.540 their program

00:29:21.580 is only three

00:29:22.040 to four months long

00:29:22.700 the guys

00:29:24.060 that are going

00:29:24.400 from Guantanamo

00:29:25.120 though

00:29:25.340 their program

00:29:25.980 is a year long

00:29:27.040 and the reason

00:29:27.500 is twofold

00:29:28.500 number one

00:29:29.120 they're way more

00:29:30.080 radicalized

00:29:30.720 because if we've

00:29:31.420 just taken you

00:29:32.440 for 15 years

00:29:33.100 and tortured you

00:29:33.800 and separated you

00:29:34.520 from your family

00:29:35.180 without any like

00:29:36.540 you know

00:29:37.020 court case

00:29:37.780 you're not going to

00:29:38.480 be the happiest

00:29:39.100 camper in the world

00:29:39.880 and so a lot

00:29:40.960 of the instructors

00:29:41.560 at the center

00:29:42.420 say when these guys

00:29:43.200 arrive from Guantanamo

00:29:43.940 the first thing

00:29:44.500 they want is revenge 0.99

00:29:45.260 they want to kill 1.00

00:29:46.340 the first American 1.00

00:29:46.980 they see

00:29:47.380 so that's one

00:29:50.080 the second reason

00:29:50.960 is why it's so long

00:29:52.100 compared to the other one

00:29:53.120 is because again

00:29:54.260 you have someone

00:29:54.800 like Ali

00:29:55.220 who when he

00:29:55.660 went in

00:29:56.200 when he was 16

00:29:57.000 got out

00:29:58.360 when he was

00:29:58.860 almost 32

00:29:59.540 these are some

00:30:00.540 of the most

00:30:00.840 formative years

00:30:01.780 in a young man's life

00:30:03.280 right

00:30:03.800 so the life skills

00:30:05.520 that one picks up

00:30:06.580 during that time

00:30:07.380 they did not get

00:30:08.680 for example

00:30:09.800 how to balance a budget

00:30:11.340 like how to find a wife

00:30:13.220 but no

00:30:15.880 if your motivation

00:30:17.000 is economic necessity

00:30:18.220 and you don't have funding

00:30:19.620 actually learning

00:30:20.460 how to do a budget

00:30:21.320 is going to

00:30:22.000 help that

00:30:23.080 and that's what I mean

00:30:24.000 in terms of

00:30:24.500 you need to understand

00:30:25.840 the motivations

00:30:26.360 in order to understand

00:30:27.260 how to deter those things

00:30:28.440 and the world

00:30:29.180 by the way

00:30:29.760 has changed a lot

00:30:31.140 in the last 60 years

00:30:32.400 so you've kind of

00:30:33.520 been deprived of

00:30:34.600 like the internet

00:30:35.620 didn't really exist

00:30:36.400 in the same way

00:30:37.020 yeah these guys

00:30:37.240 literally didn't know

00:30:38.140 what Google was

00:30:38.840 had no idea

00:30:39.840 what Google was

00:30:40.500 that's an impressive scene

00:30:41.620 in a weird way

00:30:42.640 in the moment

00:30:43.080 yeah

00:30:43.120 but it's just like

00:30:44.840 you

00:30:45.220 well a lot of people

00:30:46.240 think of Guantanamo

00:30:46.840 think of prison

00:30:47.440 it's not prison

00:30:48.340 because in prison

00:30:49.000 you can have

00:30:49.660 your family can visit you

00:30:50.960 you can watch the TV

00:30:52.080 and you can learn

00:30:53.340 about what's going on

00:30:53.960 in the world

00:30:54.420 when these

00:30:55.360 during the Bush administration

00:30:56.620 according to

00:30:57.500 you know

00:30:58.140 most people I've talked to

00:30:59.120 they weren't really allowed

00:31:00.320 to have any contact

00:31:01.300 with the outside world

00:31:02.040 including TV

00:31:02.840 and it wasn't until

00:31:04.420 Obama came in

00:31:05.040 they were allowed

00:31:05.480 to have TV

00:31:06.060 and things like this

00:31:06.720 and what was really

00:31:07.180 interesting is

00:31:07.760 most of the main characters

00:31:09.160 in the film

00:31:09.600 with the exception of Khalid

00:31:10.500 didn't speak English

00:31:11.560 before they went to Guantanamo

00:31:12.720 they learned English

00:31:14.280 in Guantanamo

00:31:14.920 and one of my favorite scenes

00:31:16.280 that we had to take out

00:31:17.160 was when Ali tells

00:31:19.700 the story of how

00:31:20.520 he learned English

00:31:21.280 so he was quite young

00:31:23.900 when he went to Guantanamo

00:31:24.580 16

00:31:24.980 and when Obama came in

00:31:27.680 they allowed him

00:31:28.200 to have TVs

00:31:28.740 and he told me

00:31:30.040 that one of the guards

00:31:30.660 kind of took pity on him

00:31:31.580 because he was so young

00:31:32.320 and he said

00:31:32.740 you know

00:31:33.420 you're a young kid

00:31:34.240 you should be playing

00:31:34.740 video games

00:31:35.380 so well I really don't know

00:31:37.100 what video games

00:31:37.700 to ask for

00:31:38.300 what video games

00:31:39.440 should I ask for

00:31:40.080 and the guard said

00:31:41.380 oh you should ask

00:31:42.220 for Grand Theft Auto

00:31:43.080 so Ali asked

00:31:45.180 for Grand Theft Auto

00:31:45.900 and he got it

00:31:46.880 and I guess

00:31:47.980 there's missions

00:31:48.580 that come up

00:31:49.280 on the screen

00:31:50.260 and he would pause it

00:31:51.040 he would translate that

00:31:51.780 with a dictionary

00:31:52.260 and that's how

00:31:52.720 he learned English

00:31:53.400 and so when I first

00:31:54.640 started talking with Ali

00:31:56.380 there was some

00:31:56.980 language skills

00:31:58.140 that we had to

00:31:58.840 remedy before

00:31:59.720 we went on camera

00:32:01.620 so yeah

00:32:04.240 Grand Theft Auto

00:32:05.320 will give you

00:32:05.700 a very specific vocabulary

00:32:07.240 that maybe not

00:32:08.020 be always great

00:32:09.580 to use

00:32:10.220 so yeah

00:32:11.360 and so I think

00:32:12.000 for me

00:32:12.400 it was interesting

00:32:13.940 to see

00:32:14.580 the juxtaposition

00:32:15.760 between one administration

00:32:17.200 and the other

00:32:17.620 and how it affected

00:32:18.240 these men

00:32:18.760 but also

00:32:20.140 again

00:32:21.140 they're shut off

00:32:21.860 from the world

00:32:22.280 so there's no Facebook

00:32:23.260 no internet

00:32:24.000 no nothing

00:32:24.520 no social media

00:32:25.240 no smartphones

00:32:26.180 at least they've been

00:32:27.960 protected from that

00:32:28.900 well they did pick it up

00:32:31.460 quite quickly

00:32:32.180 once they got out

00:32:33.120 it was a pretty

00:32:34.500 fast intake

00:32:35.340 but I think

00:32:35.860 you know

00:32:36.600 it's things that

00:32:37.960 we just don't think about

00:32:38.940 right

00:32:39.580 and so part of

00:32:41.520 that year long course

00:32:43.020 is yes

00:32:44.320 it's de-radicalizing

00:32:45.700 these men

00:32:46.180 but it's also

00:32:46.680 treating them

00:32:47.120 for PTSD

00:32:47.720 from Guantanamo

00:32:48.620 it's also

00:32:49.560 trying to give them

00:32:50.500 life skills

00:32:51.080 so when they

00:32:52.180 leave the center

00:32:53.080 they can get a job

00:32:55.080 find a wife

00:32:56.160 have a family

00:32:57.080 because statistically

00:32:57.860 according to

00:32:58.580 according to

00:32:59.600 the structure

00:33:00.180 of the center

00:33:00.640 is they're way

00:33:01.380 less likely

00:33:02.020 to get involved

00:33:03.340 with these groups

00:33:03.840 again

00:33:04.200 if they're married

00:33:05.260 and have a kid

00:33:05.820 and you know

00:33:06.740 family to take care of

00:33:08.100 I think

00:33:09.160 Hey Francis

00:33:11.460 if you were a member

00:33:12.680 of the public

00:33:13.300 would you like

00:33:14.000 the opportunity

00:33:14.580 to ask

00:33:15.280 incredible guests

00:33:16.540 like Bill Burr

00:33:17.660 Jordan Peterson

00:33:18.660 Sam Harris

00:33:19.820 Adam Carolla

00:33:20.840 Brett Weinstein

00:33:21.900 John Barnes

00:33:22.820 Douglas Murray

00:33:23.940 Nigel Farage

00:33:25.180 and Lionel Shriver

00:33:26.100 your own questions

00:33:27.380 you bet I would

00:33:28.700 and what do you think

00:33:29.940 the best way

00:33:30.720 to do that would be

00:33:31.720 probably stalking mate

00:33:33.580 you'd have to corner

00:33:34.520 them in the supermarket

00:33:35.920 probably round near

00:33:37.280 like the sort of

00:33:38.120 frozen food aisles

00:33:39.220 and then just

00:33:40.140 bark questions

00:33:41.080 at them

00:33:41.380 before they can escape

00:33:42.860 not the American ones 0.99

00:33:44.360 as they have guns

00:33:45.500 and you'd have to be

00:33:46.560 extra careful

00:33:47.200 with the females 0.89

00:33:48.000 as that's how

00:33:49.140 I got in trouble

00:33:49.900 last time

00:33:50.660 can you really imagine

00:33:51.980 you're going to get

00:33:52.440 Douglas Murray

00:33:53.080 near the frozen food aisle

00:33:54.500 if you want to ask

00:33:55.840 our incredible guest questions

00:33:57.400 and have access

00:33:58.240 to phenomenal

00:33:59.000 behind the scenes content

00:34:00.220 then you have to be

00:34:01.720 on our locals

00:34:02.800 that's right

00:34:03.600 for only $7 a month

00:34:06.000 you get incredible

00:34:07.380 extra content

00:34:08.420 behind the scenes

00:34:09.660 footage

00:34:10.260 giveaways

00:34:11.140 and also the chance

00:34:12.480 to be part

00:34:13.020 of an incredible

00:34:14.060 community

00:34:14.760 where you can meet

00:34:16.140 and hang out

00:34:17.080 with like-minded people

00:34:18.540 you get access

00:34:19.400 to our American vlogs

00:34:20.760 as we travel

00:34:21.540 across the country

00:34:22.660 interviewing our heroes

00:34:24.140 an extra 20 minutes

00:34:25.700 of our viral

00:34:26.540 Sam Harris episode

00:34:27.640 as he discusses

00:34:28.740 his approach to COVID

00:34:29.640 we're also going

00:34:30.620 to start doing giveaways

00:34:31.880 of exclusive

00:34:32.720 Trigonometry merchandise

00:34:34.020 like this

00:34:34.800 a poster

00:34:35.620 from our Edinburgh show

00:34:36.660 signed by both of us

00:34:37.700 and also

00:34:38.620 a House of Lords teddy

00:34:40.640 which you can only get

00:34:41.600 in the House of Lords

00:34:42.440 signed by the one

00:34:43.880 and only

00:34:44.340 Baroness Fox

00:34:45.320 Locals also gives you

00:34:47.560 access to an incredible

00:34:48.920 online community

00:34:49.880 you can share memes

00:34:50.920 talk about the

00:34:52.060 latest episode

00:34:53.180 or even make a new friend

00:34:55.380 or just one

00:34:56.000 exactly

00:34:56.760 more than both of us

00:34:58.080 have really

00:34:58.500 people are now doing

00:34:59.800 meetups in their city

00:35:01.100 because they love locals

00:35:03.180 in fact some people

00:35:04.620 enjoy it so much

00:35:05.660 they prefer it

00:35:06.620 over the show

00:35:07.320 they prefer locals

00:35:09.360 to Trigonometry

00:35:10.540 if I have to get 0.99

00:35:12.760 them executed 1.00

00:35:13.440 I'm the one 0.98

00:35:14.080 that goes to jail

00:35:14.940 right

00:35:15.480 go to

00:35:16.220 Trigonometry.locals.com

00:35:18.440 only $7 a month

00:35:20.740 for all that

00:35:21.900 incredible content

00:35:23.220 Trigonometry.locals.com

00:35:26.040 see you there guys

00:35:27.580 and you made this film

00:35:30.380 it took three years

00:35:31.540 it's wonderful

00:35:32.600 it's beautiful

00:35:33.420 I really enjoyed it

00:35:34.860 I actually watched it

00:35:36.340 on a phone

00:35:37.520 because I was going

00:35:38.440 oh blasphemy

00:35:39.020 I know

00:35:39.460 I know

00:35:39.820 blasphemy

00:35:40.340 I know I shouldn't have told you that

00:35:42.540 I know I shouldn't have told you that

00:35:44.680 because I was going from gig to gig

00:35:46.060 and doing whatever else

00:35:46.800 but the moment I watched it

00:35:48.060 it hooked me in

00:35:49.300 I thought it was

00:35:50.600 brilliant

00:35:51.540 and normally when you watch

00:35:52.820 something on a phone

00:35:53.500 you

00:35:53.940 you know

00:35:55.400 it's not the way it's meant to be consumed

00:35:57.080 but it was incredible

00:35:58.180 and it's a very powerful piece of work

00:36:00.440 so you made this film

00:36:01.600 and it's genuinely brilliant

00:36:03.060 then what happens

00:36:04.880 because the story takes another turn

00:36:06.440 yeah

00:36:06.700 so it took actually longer than three years to make

00:36:08.800 it was a full year just to get access

00:36:11.080 three years of filming

00:36:12.420 two years of editing

00:36:13.460 and I guess if you want to count the last years

00:36:15.140 of being blacklisted

00:36:16.180 so it's a good chunk of time

00:36:18.720 but yeah

00:36:19.180 you were saying what happened

00:36:21.560 where are we at now

00:36:22.620 yes

00:36:22.960 so the story of the film

00:36:24.920 because there's a story of making the film

00:36:27.020 but then there's the story of the film itself

00:36:29.560 yeah

00:36:30.960 so the film

00:36:32.420 I don't know how familiar you guys are with Sundance

00:36:35.600 but it's like the

00:36:36.680 it's the holy grail

00:36:38.220 for independent film festivals

00:36:39.500 set up by Robert Redford

00:36:40.700 yeah

00:36:41.280 exactly

00:36:41.900 and so for documentaries in particular

00:36:44.220 it's the premiere festival

00:36:45.720 so for example

00:36:46.780 if you get a film into Sundance

00:36:49.960 most likely that film

00:36:51.660 is going to be part of the It film of that year

00:36:54.320 and so there's a handful of films

00:36:55.480 that just are everywhere

00:36:56.760 and usually those are the ones that premiere at Sundance

00:36:58.840 for example

00:36:59.320 when we got into Sundance

00:37:02.420 the PR guy that we were working with

00:37:06.300 he's like

00:37:06.580 I've watched every single film

00:37:07.860 at Sundance this year

00:37:09.500 because everyone wanted him to rep his film

00:37:11.100 and he said

00:37:11.460 this film

00:37:12.040 this film

00:37:12.980 is the only one that like stuck with me

00:37:14.740 I'm like still thinking about it

00:37:16.000 he's like

00:37:16.220 this is going to be the front runner for the Oscars

00:37:18.320 this is going to be the film of the year

00:37:20.740 and so it's that kind of platform

00:37:23.300 that Sundance allows you to have

00:37:25.160 and so typically

00:37:26.340 normally

00:37:27.100 it will launch a film

00:37:28.800 and the issues brought up in the film

00:37:31.800 the stories brought up in the film

00:37:32.640 is something that we're going to be talking about

00:37:33.940 for that entire year

00:37:34.740 and in doing so

00:37:35.960 it also launches

00:37:36.680 the career of people who made the film

00:37:39.280 be it the director

00:37:40.180 the producer

00:37:40.800 the animators on this film

00:37:42.220 and it kind of just levels up

00:37:44.160 your playing field

00:37:45.860 in terms of your career

00:37:47.300 but

00:37:47.920 the opposite happened

00:37:50.100 unfortunately

00:37:51.680 and why?

00:37:54.180 that is a good question

00:37:55.560 I know it is

00:37:56.660 I want to know the exact answer

00:37:59.020 I would say that in the beginning

00:38:01.620 I didn't quite understand it

00:38:03.320 but like I said

00:38:03.920 there's three types of people in the world

00:38:05.380 and I'm the third

00:38:07.040 when someone hits you

00:38:08.240 I asked why

00:38:08.780 so I did a huge deep dive into this

00:38:10.840 and

00:38:11.860 read a lot of books

00:38:13.840 did a lot of investigative journalism

00:38:16.040 try to figure out

00:38:16.820 what was the cause

00:38:18.160 what was the epicenter

00:38:18.960 how'd this all come about

00:38:20.100 because what you have to understand is

00:38:22.540 while you're making a film

00:38:24.540 at least while I'm making a film

00:38:25.820 while I'm editing it

00:38:27.360 I don't just edit it by myself

00:38:29.320 I do test screenings

00:38:30.740 so we'll have audiences come in

00:38:32.260 various audiences

00:38:33.500 so for example

00:38:34.220 we screen this for

00:38:35.080 Muslims

00:38:36.240 Yemenis

00:38:36.860 guards at Guantanamo

00:38:38.160 conservatives

00:38:39.340 liberals

00:38:40.080 progressive

00:38:41.040 all across the board

00:38:42.180 old

00:38:42.740 young

00:38:43.480 everything

00:38:44.160 and

00:38:45.460 you do that to make sure

00:38:47.440 one

00:38:48.080 the film that you're making

00:38:49.020 is making sense

00:38:49.820 but two

00:38:50.780 especially for this film

00:38:52.060 am I missing something

00:38:53.540 because I knew that this film

00:38:55.760 was going to get attacked

00:38:56.580 I didn't think it was going to be

00:38:58.200 from the left though

00:38:58.860 I was pretty sure

00:38:59.860 it was going to be from the right

00:39:00.700 and so

00:39:03.040 in all those feedback sessions

00:39:04.560 we kind of

00:39:06.400 over time

00:39:07.440 made this film

00:39:08.560 quite nuanced

00:39:09.480 quite complex

00:39:10.080 and for lack of a better term

00:39:12.080 like

00:39:12.360 tried to make it as

00:39:14.260 bomb proof

00:39:15.100 i.e. like

00:39:15.800 do our due diligence

00:39:16.780 fact checking

00:39:17.380 all this stuff

00:39:17.840 as possible

00:39:18.400 and so

00:39:20.860 when we got in the Sundance

00:39:22.680 we were just elated

00:39:23.680 and

00:39:24.840 then they announced

00:39:26.300 the lineup

00:39:27.500 and so they announced

00:39:28.360 the lineup

00:39:28.620 almost about two months

00:39:29.960 a little bit less than two months

00:39:30.740 before you actually

00:39:31.600 start the festival

00:39:33.160 so they announced

00:39:34.500 on the 9th of December

00:39:35.740 and the film premiered

00:39:36.940 on the 22nd of January

00:39:38.420 and the day after

00:39:40.360 they announced the film

00:39:41.240 before anyone had seen it

00:39:42.440 the film just started

00:39:43.880 to get attacked

00:39:44.500 online

00:39:45.440 by?

00:39:47.380 initially

00:39:47.740 we didn't know

00:39:48.420 who the people were

00:39:49.140 and initially

00:39:49.720 this is what I thought

00:39:50.480 to be completely honest

00:39:51.780 I think most people

00:39:53.520 would have said

00:39:54.300 that

00:39:55.280 oh this person

00:39:56.500 is attacking my film

00:39:57.300 they haven't seen it

00:39:57.960 screw them

00:39:58.800 that was not 0.98

00:40:00.320 my initial response

00:40:01.920 having

00:40:03.460 lived in the Middle East

00:40:04.820 for a very long time

00:40:05.720 having had a lot of

00:40:07.280 really close friends

00:40:08.100 and people that I consider

00:40:08.780 family who are Muslims

00:40:09.740 in the US

00:40:10.720 I was well aware

00:40:12.420 of the last 20 years

00:40:14.680 in the United States

00:40:15.460 being a Muslim

00:40:16.680 in the US

00:40:17.720 has been a lot harder

00:40:18.840 after 9-11

00:40:19.480 on a plethora of levels

00:40:20.700 for example

00:40:21.900 someone that I consider

00:40:22.720 my sister

00:40:23.260 when she moved

00:40:25.340 from here

00:40:25.940 from the Middle East

00:40:27.100 she wears the hijab

00:40:28.720 and she was like

00:40:29.460 three steps out

00:40:30.460 of the airport

00:40:32.780 and someone spitting her face 1.00

00:40:34.200 and told her to go back

00:40:34.960 to where she came from

00:40:35.700 and this is one incident

00:40:37.820 but over 20 years

00:40:38.880 those things add up

00:40:39.860 and so it can be quite

00:40:40.820 traumatizing for someone

00:40:43.160 over a long period of time

00:40:44.300 and so what I initially

00:40:45.340 thought was

00:40:46.120 okay here's a population

00:40:48.620 of people

00:40:49.060 who have seen

00:40:50.600 all these negative tropes

00:40:52.020 be portrayed in the media

00:40:53.500 of Muslims

00:40:54.520 that reinforces

00:40:55.560 negative stereotypes

00:40:56.720 that is sensationalistic

00:40:58.780 and they probably think

00:41:01.540 that this film

00:41:02.660 is like every other film

00:41:04.060 that's been made

00:41:04.560 about terrorism

00:41:05.140 but if it were

00:41:06.720 to be fair

00:41:07.360 there's no way Sundance

00:41:08.260 would have programmed it

00:41:09.040 so I thought

00:41:11.700 this was just

00:41:12.420 a big misunderstanding

00:41:13.140 and I thought

00:41:14.460 once they see the film

00:41:15.620 like they'll realize

00:41:16.880 that this is very

00:41:17.700 very different

00:41:18.200 from what people

00:41:18.920 are perceiving it to be

00:41:20.180 and so I reached out

00:41:22.180 via Sundance

00:41:23.140 because they were

00:41:23.660 contacting Sundance

00:41:24.780 directly

00:41:25.240 requiring that they

00:41:27.300 pull the film

00:41:29.300 and do all this other stuff

00:41:30.240 and so Sundance

00:41:32.020 was getting really worried

00:41:32.840 and they were starting

00:41:33.260 to waver

00:41:33.760 or they seemed like

00:41:34.700 they were starting

00:41:35.100 to waver

00:41:35.540 and so I offered

00:41:37.280 through Sundance

00:41:38.080 and through a different

00:41:38.580 organization

00:41:39.120 because at that time

00:41:40.040 I didn't know

00:41:40.440 who these people were

00:41:41.120 to come and screen

00:41:42.600 the film

00:41:42.960 before Sundance

00:41:44.100 and according to

00:41:45.960 someone at the festival

00:41:47.140 they said

00:41:47.480 in the history

00:41:48.160 of Sundance

00:41:49.120 no one's ever

00:41:49.640 offered to show

00:41:51.060 their film

00:41:51.600 to the group of people

00:41:52.480 attacking it

00:41:53.220 before it actually premieres

00:41:54.740 but that's how certain

00:41:55.920 I was that this

00:41:56.620 was a misunderstanding

00:41:57.280 and then they got

00:41:59.560 back to us

00:42:00.260 and they said

00:42:00.880 we don't want to

00:42:01.520 because I offered

00:42:02.020 to fly down to LA

00:42:03.060 with me and my

00:42:04.040 executive producer

00:42:04.660 Mohammed who's Yemeni

00:42:05.780 and I said

00:42:07.740 me and Mohammed

00:42:08.200 will fly down

00:42:08.820 we'll answer any

00:42:09.400 questions you have

00:42:10.400 we'll show you the film

00:42:11.580 because we're still

00:42:12.120 editing at that point

00:42:13.180 so if you actually

00:42:13.760 have some really good

00:42:14.340 notes we'll probably

00:42:14.900 take them

00:42:15.360 and then we can have

00:42:16.760 a discussion afterwards

00:42:17.560 and they got back

00:42:20.100 to us and said

00:42:20.920 we don't want to

00:42:21.760 talk with Meg

00:42:22.400 we don't want to

00:42:23.120 talk with Mohammed

00:42:23.760 we don't want to

00:42:24.820 watch the film

00:42:25.660 we only want to

00:42:26.660 go through Sundance

00:42:27.500 and we're insulted

00:42:28.320 that you even asked

00:42:29.280 us to sign an NDA

00:42:30.320 which we ask

00:42:30.840 everyone to do

00:42:31.680 who watches the film

00:42:32.800 before the premiere

00:42:33.620 it's pretty industry

00:42:34.280 standard

00:42:34.680 and at that point

00:42:36.120 I was like

00:42:36.420 I don't really know

00:42:37.080 what else I can do

00:42:37.980 because I can't

00:42:39.940 have a discussion

00:42:40.500 with someone

00:42:40.920 about a film

00:42:41.440 that they haven't seen

00:42:42.260 and so

00:42:44.860 and so

00:42:47.840 the attacks

00:42:50.160 continued

00:42:50.700 until

00:42:52.260 yeah

00:42:53.040 so for those

00:42:53.820 six weeks

00:42:54.320 two months

00:42:54.760 whatever it was

00:42:55.300 and what I didn't

00:42:57.060 realize

00:42:57.540 was how

00:42:58.480 strong

00:42:59.160 confirmation bias

00:43:00.000 was

00:43:00.440 and what I mean

00:43:02.060 by that is

00:43:02.620 for

00:43:03.080 almost

00:43:04.740 two months

00:43:05.740 you had people

00:43:07.300 going in chat rooms

00:43:08.540 and going

00:43:09.520 on messaging boards

00:43:10.820 and on Twitter

00:43:11.580 and writing letters

00:43:12.940 saying

00:43:14.160 things about this film

00:43:16.180 having not seen it

00:43:18.120 like

00:43:18.500 the film is propaganda

00:43:19.880 for the Saudis

00:43:20.640 it's funded by the Saudis

00:43:21.880 it's an all white film crew

00:43:24.920 and they don't know anything

00:43:25.780 about the Middle East

00:43:26.440 and

00:43:26.860 they just lucked into this

00:43:28.900 or they've been hoodwinked

00:43:29.940 by the Saudi government

00:43:30.720 to do this thing

00:43:31.360 again

00:43:31.760 they had not seen it

00:43:33.040 and so once you see the film

00:43:34.640 and that's something

00:43:35.460 that's been so frustrating

00:43:36.480 is I've realized

00:43:37.880 that the best offense

00:43:39.020 against all these accusations

00:43:40.720 against all these attacks

00:43:42.300 is the film itself

00:43:43.640 right

00:43:44.340 I agree

00:43:45.020 yeah

00:43:45.440 well this is one of

00:43:46.740 one of the things

00:43:47.480 that we didn't actually

00:43:48.320 talk about

00:43:48.820 just very briefly

00:43:49.600 the ending of the film

00:43:51.020 was fascinating to me

00:43:52.340 because

00:43:52.860 up until that point

00:43:55.420 you're basically looking

00:43:56.280 at the story

00:43:56.840 of a bunch of people

00:43:57.620 who went to Guantanamo Bay

00:43:58.780 some of them

00:43:59.380 some of them 0.76

00:44:00.480 were hardened terrorists

00:44:01.320 some of them

00:44:01.900 were there

00:44:02.640 some were by accident

00:44:03.780 some of them

00:44:04.300 got drawn in

00:44:05.380 blah blah blah

00:44:05.760 and you're watching them

00:44:06.540 be rehabilitated

00:44:07.720 and as I said

00:44:09.020 you cover the fact

00:44:09.840 that not all of them

00:44:10.640 are successfully rehabilitated

00:44:11.900 but most of them are

00:44:12.880 and you're watching that process

00:44:14.180 you're going

00:44:14.560 well this is interesting

00:44:15.460 and then

00:44:16.720 towards the end of the movie

00:44:19.280 there's a little switcheroo

00:44:20.460 because

00:44:20.780 as we talked about already

00:44:22.440 the guy who founded

00:44:23.740 the center

00:44:24.200 gets replaced

00:44:25.000 in fact he gets arrested

00:44:26.620 Mohammed bin Salman

00:44:28.000 takes over

00:44:28.640 and suddenly

00:44:30.100 this center

00:44:31.640 isn't doing

00:44:32.360 what he was doing

00:44:33.120 at all anymore

00:44:33.860 and one of the most

00:44:35.180 charismatic teachers

00:44:36.460 at the center

00:44:37.200 who was there

00:44:38.700 with a big smile

00:44:39.580 on his face

00:44:40.100 teaching these men

00:44:40.960 how to live life

00:44:42.000 and whatever

00:44:42.400 when you try to

00:44:43.840 speak to him

00:44:44.700 post the transfer

00:44:47.300 of power

00:44:48.040 he's like a robot

00:44:49.940 and he's refusing

00:44:51.420 to answer your questions

00:44:52.460 and I'm very familiar

00:44:54.860 with this being

00:44:55.360 from Russia

00:44:55.860 where you have

00:44:56.560 a strong dictator

00:44:57.460 at the top

00:44:58.060 and if he doesn't

00:44:59.360 want something to happen

00:45:00.180 everyone else

00:45:00.700 is terrified

00:45:01.240 and they'll just

00:45:02.280 pretend that the thing

00:45:03.240 that they used to do

00:45:03.980 for 10 years

00:45:04.560 up until right now

00:45:05.440 was the exact opposite

00:45:06.640 of what actually happened

00:45:07.640 and so

00:45:08.640 that authoritarianism

00:45:11.040 really shows

00:45:12.280 so the idea

00:45:13.060 that this was a film

00:45:13.940 funded by the Saudis

00:45:15.260 I mean 0.99

00:45:15.580 that is just ridiculous 0.97

00:45:17.320 and anyone who's seen it 0.99

00:45:18.360 would get it

00:45:19.920 but you mentioned

00:45:21.160 left and right

00:45:21.960 and I can see

00:45:23.120 I suppose

00:45:24.240 why some on the right

00:45:25.500 would at least

00:45:26.120 instinctively

00:45:26.960 not want to engage

00:45:28.080 with this

00:45:28.500 right?

00:45:29.040 Well yeah

00:45:29.280 I mean

00:45:29.740 again when we were

00:45:30.920 doing the test screenings

00:45:31.920 most of the criticisms

00:45:33.240 that we got

00:45:34.180 in the test screenings

00:45:35.080 were from people

00:45:36.100 who were on the right

00:45:37.380 and said listen

00:45:37.920 you need to tell me

00:45:39.440 exactly what these men

00:45:40.380 have done

00:45:40.760 and you need to make them

00:45:41.520 confess exactly

00:45:42.400 what they've done

00:45:43.020 and my response

00:45:44.820 to that was always like

00:45:45.700 listen

00:45:46.060 the US government

00:45:47.700 had these men

00:45:48.500 for a decade and a half

00:45:49.840 and they have

00:45:50.800 with all the resources

00:45:51.960 in the world

00:45:52.480 could not

00:45:53.440 produce enough evidence

00:45:56.100 to be on a shadow of a doubt

00:45:57.320 to be able to charge

00:45:57.940 and convict these men

00:45:58.680 and specifically say

00:46:00.220 what they did and did not do

00:46:01.160 and the New York Times

00:46:02.760 also did a podcast

00:46:04.060 called Caliphate 0.65

00:46:04.840 I don't know

00:46:05.160 if you're familiar with it

00:46:06.000 with all the resources

00:46:07.320 the New York Times

00:46:08.180 they did this amazing podcast

00:46:10.240 it won all these awards

00:46:11.700 and later

00:46:12.240 they found out

00:46:13.000 that all of this was false

00:46:13.960 and based on a lie

00:46:14.660 huge controversy

00:46:16.580 in the journalism world

00:46:17.560 now if the New York Times

00:46:19.140 the US government

00:46:19.860 with a bazillion more resources

00:46:21.220 than I have

00:46:21.700 can't do this

00:46:22.580 then there's no way

00:46:24.200 that I can

00:46:24.880 right

00:46:25.360 so I chose to

00:46:26.640 when you introduce the men

00:46:28.040 or when you see them

00:46:28.860 in one shot

00:46:29.580 we have the dossier

00:46:30.820 of what the American government says

00:46:33.120 they said

00:46:33.400 these are the things

00:46:34.060 that we are accusing

00:46:35.220 these men of doing

00:46:35.980 but then for the next 90 minutes

00:46:38.000 of the film

00:46:39.540 the men tell their side

00:46:40.880 and if it's important to you

00:46:42.380 you can make up your own mind

00:46:43.500 but for me

00:46:43.900 the film wasn't about the what

00:46:45.400 they did specifically

00:46:46.760 but the why

00:46:47.820 because the what is done

00:46:48.940 can't do anything about it now

00:46:50.160 but I think for me

00:46:51.720 what was really

00:46:52.640 really interesting for me

00:46:54.140 is trying to figure out

00:46:55.060 the why

00:46:55.820 because the why

00:46:56.460 is something that we can actually

00:46:57.780 work with

00:46:58.640 and move forward

00:46:59.260 no I totally get it

00:47:00.440 I was mainly focusing on

00:47:03.180 what

00:47:03.680 who are the sort of people

00:47:04.640 that may be critical of it

00:47:05.900 and as I say

00:47:06.620 I can see why people on the right

00:47:08.120 may have some reservations about it

00:47:10.100 even though

00:47:10.420 haven't seen the film

00:47:11.160 I think those reservations

00:47:12.080 are unfounded

00:47:12.800 yeah

00:47:13.220 I think people on the right

00:47:14.640 can watch that movie

00:47:15.480 and enjoy it

00:47:16.520 and think it's valuable

00:47:17.280 and a great movie

00:47:18.360 personally

00:47:18.880 but

00:47:20.800 the left

00:47:22.120 why is the left upset about

00:47:24.460 or people on the left

00:47:25.580 so

00:47:27.880 I wouldn't say

00:47:29.260 of people

00:47:29.760 it's a small group

00:47:31.020 of

00:47:31.580 so the

00:47:32.460 the people who

00:47:33.240 found out later

00:47:34.120 that were attacking the film

00:47:35.220 two groups

00:47:35.960 one was a group of six

00:47:37.800 documentary filmmakers

00:47:38.880 who were Muslim

00:47:40.100 and

00:47:41.120 according to

00:47:42.160 people at Sundance

00:47:44.200 they'd applied to Sundance

00:47:45.260 and not gotten in

00:47:46.040 and

00:47:48.260 and

00:47:48.500 and

00:47:49.720 I think that

00:47:50.880 for me

00:47:53.220 if you are

00:47:55.500 attacking a film

00:47:56.440 that you haven't seen

00:47:57.320 and you're attacking

00:47:59.260 person that you've never met

00:48:00.620 then the problem

00:48:02.700 is not with me

00:48:03.420 with me or the film

00:48:04.200 what I mean by that is

00:48:05.560 we talked before

00:48:07.080 about having

00:48:08.080 20 years

00:48:10.320 of kind of

00:48:10.920 really really really

00:48:12.500 being discriminated

00:48:13.280 against the United States 0.69

00:48:14.100 if you're Muslim 0.97

00:48:14.640 and so

00:48:16.460 I can understand

00:48:17.700 the knee-jerk reaction

00:48:18.680 to this film

00:48:19.400 however

00:48:21.660 I also feel like

00:48:23.680 in general

00:48:25.160 I think the people

00:48:26.300 attacking the film

00:48:27.280 hadn't seen it

00:48:28.720 and there was

00:48:29.500 preconceived notions

00:48:30.420 of what it was

00:48:31.340 and I think

00:48:32.260 we live in a world today

00:48:33.720 where once

00:48:34.420 you plant a flag

00:48:35.740 right

00:48:36.700 it's very few people

00:48:37.900 have the courage

00:48:38.420 to pick that up

00:48:39.040 and say

00:48:39.360 I was wrong

00:48:40.100 but also

00:48:40.760 even they watched the film

00:48:42.040 and what is the criticism

00:48:43.620 of the film?

00:48:46.000 So

00:48:46.440 it's kind of changed

00:48:48.680 over time

00:48:49.360 It doesn't surprise me

00:48:50.680 So

00:48:51.600 initially

00:48:52.440 the criticism was

00:48:54.140 it was Saudi propaganda

00:48:55.260 by the Saudis

00:48:56.140 and people saw the film

00:48:57.680 and realized

00:48:58.100 that's not true

00:48:58.800 and then it was like

00:48:59.400 okay

00:48:59.740 the problem with this film

00:49:01.460 it was done by

00:49:02.080 an all-white film team

00:49:03.060 and they just lucked

00:49:03.800 into this

00:49:04.240 and they didn't know

00:49:04.820 what they were doing

00:49:05.360 and then

00:49:06.360 clearly no one

00:49:07.520 did a background check

00:49:08.600 on me

00:49:08.960 or the team

00:49:09.720 because our executive producer

00:49:10.960 is Muslim

00:49:11.520 the co-producer

00:49:12.400 is Muslim

00:49:12.920 the assistant editor

00:49:13.880 is Muslim

00:49:14.340 and we consulted

00:49:15.340 with two Islamic scholars

00:49:16.420 and an imam

00:49:17.140 for this film

00:49:17.740 which is one of the reasons

00:49:18.900 why it's such a nuanced

00:49:20.320 like really deep dive

00:49:22.320 into this world

00:49:23.220 I don't think

00:49:24.020 that could have been done

00:49:24.980 without that input

00:49:26.320 What I'm trying to get at

00:49:28.600 is why are people

00:49:30.220 refusing to show your film?

00:49:33.460 The reason to show the film

00:49:34.660 is fear

00:49:35.240 so for example

00:49:38.300 when the attack

00:49:40.260 started

00:49:40.740 on the film

00:49:41.940 and

00:49:42.820 on me

00:49:44.680 again

00:49:45.100 it reminded me

00:49:47.280 of a

00:49:47.620 so when I was a firefighter

00:49:49.480 I went on this call

00:49:50.200 and

00:49:51.500 this guy's kid

00:49:53.100 had been

00:49:53.520 seriously hurt

00:49:54.320 we show up

00:49:56.200 and

00:49:56.860 you know

00:49:57.520 the mother's crying

00:49:58.280 the kid's bleeding out

00:49:59.140 but the father is

00:50:00.460 irately pissed

00:50:01.520 and he's yelling at us 0.99

00:50:03.120 where the fuck have you been 1.00

00:50:04.280 what fucking took you so long 1.00

00:50:05.500 you're so fucking incompetent 1.00

00:50:06.760 rage 1.00

00:50:07.680 rage directed the people

00:50:09.380 that were trying to help him

00:50:10.340 and

00:50:11.700 I remember

00:50:12.620 after we got

00:50:13.400 the kid packed up

00:50:14.660 and in the ambulance

00:50:15.740 and they were out of earshot

00:50:16.640 one of the other firefighters

00:50:17.580 said to me

00:50:18.420 that guy's lucky 0.98

00:50:19.760 I didn't fucking deck him 0.97

00:50:20.920 and our captain turned around 0.98

00:50:23.160 and said something

00:50:23.880 that I will never forget

00:50:24.900 he's like listen

00:50:25.740 what you have to understand

00:50:27.460 about the job that you do

00:50:29.380 is you're meeting people

00:50:30.780 at the most traumatic moment

00:50:31.900 of their lives

00:50:32.540 and everyone responds

00:50:34.720 differently to trauma

00:50:35.660 some people

00:50:37.240 cry

00:50:38.540 some people laugh

00:50:40.060 and some people lash out

00:50:41.700 in anger

00:50:42.340 and this is how this guy

00:50:44.200 was processing his trauma

00:50:45.520 and so

00:50:47.240 that always stuck with me

00:50:49.200 and so when the initial attacks

00:50:50.960 on the film happened

00:50:51.840 I thought that's what it was

00:50:53.840 right

00:50:54.340 so

00:50:54.740 again

00:50:55.680 these people haven't seen the film

00:50:57.260 they have never met me

00:50:58.900 but the

00:51:00.120 attacks on the film

00:51:01.160 were so ferocious

00:51:01.960 I was like okay

00:51:03.160 I remember my captain saying

00:51:05.140 even though this man

00:51:06.080 is angry at you

00:51:07.560 it's not about you

00:51:08.940 because he's never met you

00:51:10.280 and that was what I was feeling

00:51:12.320 at the time

00:51:12.900 but later

00:51:14.320 what I found out

00:51:15.600 or what I came to

00:51:16.300 kind of discover

00:51:16.920 is that

00:51:17.420 there's a group of people

00:51:18.680 in the documentary world

00:51:20.900 that believe that

00:51:22.000 if you are not from a community

00:51:24.540 you should not be allowed to

00:51:26.220 this is not a new story to us

00:51:27.920 you basically 0.97

00:51:28.940 if you're not black 0.99

00:51:31.260 you can't make jokes 0.99

00:51:32.500 about black people 0.99

00:51:34.120 if you're not this 0.99

00:51:34.880 you can't make movies

00:51:35.740 about that

00:51:36.400 it's the identity

00:51:38.440 the infiltration of identity

00:51:40.300 into everything we do now

00:51:41.440 right

00:51:41.700 and that's what you found yourself

00:51:43.080 on

00:51:43.180 yeah

00:51:43.380 that was

00:51:44.080 that was quite a big part of it

00:51:45.860 I think a lot of it

00:51:46.780 also is

00:51:47.700 with Sundance

00:51:49.040 the stakes are so high

00:51:50.060 they take few films

00:51:51.420 and so

00:51:52.260 when one of the few films

00:51:53.840 that they programmed

00:51:54.540 was directed by a white

00:51:56.200 non-Muslim

00:51:56.900 and that was something

00:51:58.720 that was a bitter pill

00:51:59.800 for some people to swallow

00:52:01.120 and called Sundance out on that

00:52:02.560 quite ferociously

00:52:03.540 on Twitter

00:52:04.980 and after a while

00:52:06.760 the pressure mounted to

00:52:08.480 such a

00:52:09.500 apex

00:52:11.860 that Sundance 0.69

00:52:13.360 eventually apologized

00:52:15.960 for programming the film

00:52:17.520 not once

00:52:18.160 but twice

00:52:19.340 and in doing so

00:52:20.920 they sent a signal

00:52:22.420 to the rest of the film industry

00:52:23.860 that there was something

00:52:25.100 innately wrong with this film

00:52:26.340 because to my knowledge

00:52:27.160 I don't think Sundance

00:52:27.820 has ever apologized

00:52:28.540 for any film

00:52:29.300 that they've programmed

00:52:30.160 and they've done a lot 0.99

00:52:31.080 of really fucking 0.99

00:52:32.180 edgy films 0.99

00:52:34.000 that were very challenging

00:52:35.300 and pissed off 0.87

00:52:36.340 a lot of people

00:52:36.920 but

00:52:38.600 by apologizing for this film

00:52:40.940 it sent a signal

00:52:41.740 and when that happened

00:52:43.280 South by Southwest

00:52:44.460 pulled the film

00:52:45.220 San Francisco

00:52:47.320 Documentary Film Festival

00:52:48.740 pulled the film

00:52:49.320 and also

00:52:49.720 took back an award

00:52:51.100 that they had given us

00:52:51.900 the Vanguard Award

00:52:52.680 and it just kind of

00:52:54.940 had a knock-on effect

00:52:56.440 from there

00:52:56.900 and it basically

00:52:57.860 the film was blacklisted

00:52:59.140 and it wasn't until

00:53:01.580 almost a year later

00:53:03.320 when a very

00:53:05.500 intrepid

00:53:06.880 and well-respected

00:53:08.300 journalist

00:53:09.220 investigative journalist

00:53:10.120 Pulitzer Prize winning

00:53:10.940 investigative journalist

00:53:11.660 did a

00:53:12.080 I think a four month

00:53:13.240 deep dive into this

00:53:14.400 for the New York Times

00:53:15.900 and it wound up

00:53:17.400 on the front page

00:53:18.140 of the Sunday Times

00:53:19.040 and that was

00:53:20.760 the first time

00:53:21.520 that people actually

00:53:22.460 said hey

00:53:23.480 maybe

00:53:23.820 maybe we should

00:53:24.920 take a second look

00:53:25.500 at it

00:53:25.700 which really interesting

00:53:26.660 though

00:53:26.940 is actually

00:53:27.720 he wasn't the first

00:53:28.500 person to write about it

00:53:29.400 but he was the first time

00:53:30.240 people took it seriously

00:53:31.380 before

00:53:31.920 right after Sundance

00:53:33.880 the lead film critic

00:53:36.220 and the TV critic

00:53:37.620 at the LA Times

00:53:38.420 is Muslim

00:53:39.040 Lorraine Ellie

00:53:39.880 brilliant woman 1.00

00:53:40.600 and she watched the film

00:53:42.360 and she wrote this whole piece

00:53:43.620 about like listen

00:53:44.200 I'm a Muslim

00:53:44.900 I love this film

00:53:45.760 and here's all the reasons why

00:53:47.260 we should not be

00:53:48.220 cancelling this film

00:53:48.980 this is a film

00:53:50.040 that's going to do

00:53:50.600 more good than harm

00:53:52.100 and she was then

00:53:54.040 attacked online

00:53:54.660 by this group

00:53:55.440 and then another

00:53:56.920 Muslim

00:53:57.620 who's a very well-respected

00:53:58.920 investigative journalist

00:53:59.920 Zaid Jelani

00:54:01.720 I think is his last name

00:54:02.800 I think I'm pronouncing

00:54:03.500 that right

00:54:03.820 probably not

00:54:04.520 he did a piece

00:54:05.720 I think the actual

00:54:07.080 title of it was

00:54:08.160 Jihad Rehab

00:54:09.200 is about compassion

00:54:10.100 not bigotry

00:54:10.880 so he had two

00:54:12.060 very well-respected

00:54:13.220 Muslim journalists

00:54:14.680 and film critics

00:54:15.340 defending the film

00:54:16.240 but even with that

00:54:18.400 you're a white woman though

00:54:19.680 so

00:54:20.000 that's how it works

00:54:22.280 it is how it works

00:54:23.620 Meg

00:54:24.020 what was the official line

00:54:26.120 that you were given

00:54:26.880 as to why Sundance

00:54:28.180 dropped your film

00:54:28.900 as to why

00:54:29.440 South by Southwest

00:54:30.360 San Francisco

00:54:31.400 all incredibly prestigious

00:54:33.380 film festivals

00:54:34.040 for people not aware

00:54:34.960 South by Southwest

00:54:35.800 Sundance

00:54:36.480 I mean the very apex

00:54:37.840 of documentary filmmaking

00:54:38.960 what was the official line

00:54:40.680 that you were given

00:54:41.220 as to why your film

00:54:42.120 was no longer being screened

00:54:43.680 well the

00:54:44.400 so Sundance did screen it

00:54:46.160 but then they apologized

00:54:46.960 for it

00:54:47.480 which was

00:54:47.940 was basically like

00:54:49.220 once you do that

00:54:50.200 they apologized for programming

00:54:51.800 and showing to people

00:54:52.720 and the quote was

00:54:53.840 because showing the film

00:54:55.660 hurt the Muslim community 1.00

00:54:57.420 is what the 0.50

00:54:58.940 the reason they gave

00:54:59.660 for apologizing

00:55:00.420 but the problem is

00:55:01.640 that just wasn't true

00:55:02.440 and they knew it wasn't true

00:55:03.900 because while all the attacks

00:55:06.560 were happening

00:55:07.220 Sundance

00:55:08.540 before the film premiere

00:55:09.680 was starting to waver

00:55:10.480 and I asked someone

00:55:11.940 that I really trusted

00:55:12.740 I'm not

00:55:13.120 I don't know what to do

00:55:13.880 I think Sundance

00:55:14.420 is actually going to

00:55:14.920 pull this film

00:55:15.500 before it ever premieres

00:55:16.540 and he said like

00:55:18.020 well there's a lot of people

00:55:20.320 who are organized

00:55:21.160 who haven't seen the film

00:55:22.320 from the Muslim community

00:55:23.400 for filmmakers

00:55:24.300 who are trying to pull it

00:55:25.680 you know loads of Muslims

00:55:27.720 who've seen the film

00:55:28.380 who've worked on the film

00:55:29.360 who love this film

00:55:30.260 have them write letters

00:55:31.520 to Sundance

00:55:32.120 ask them to like

00:55:33.920 tell Sundance

00:55:34.540 why this is important to them

00:55:35.500 and they did

00:55:36.000 and so Sundance knew

00:55:37.500 that there was a large portion

00:55:39.020 of the Muslim community

00:55:39.800 who really supported this film

00:55:41.140 but because of these six filmmakers

00:55:43.660 were so well organized

00:55:44.880 and because Twitter is

00:55:46.140 you can go on Twitter

00:55:47.400 and tweet a hundred times a day

00:55:48.860 and it seems like

00:55:49.960 the whole world hates you

00:55:51.680 but it's actually only

00:55:52.840 half a dozen people

00:55:53.680 and so the magic of social media

00:55:56.360 is you can amplify a voice

00:55:58.400 to a disproportionate level

00:56:00.340 where it feels like a cacophony

00:56:01.980 but it's actually just a whisper

00:56:03.700 and what effect do you think

00:56:05.660 that's going to have

00:56:06.260 on documentary films

00:56:07.500 as a genre

00:56:08.320 because to me

00:56:09.060 the best documentary films

00:56:10.480 are films like yours

00:56:11.680 where you go and tackle

00:56:13.040 a subject

00:56:13.600 that is taboo

00:56:14.900 that all these types

00:56:16.880 of narratives

00:56:17.300 are spread about

00:56:18.140 this particular issue

00:56:19.420 and then you debunk them

00:56:21.000 yeah

00:56:21.780 so what message

00:56:22.940 does that send

00:56:23.540 to the entire industry?

00:56:27.060 honestly

00:56:27.620 this is something

00:56:29.220 that I've thought about

00:56:30.380 for a while

00:56:31.200 now

00:56:32.060 because I think

00:56:33.140 initially

00:56:34.040 you're always like

00:56:34.960 what about

00:56:35.940 my film

00:56:36.740 what about my team

00:56:37.860 what about all the people

00:56:40.080 who worked on this

00:56:40.900 but then after a while

00:56:42.480 when you sit with it

00:56:43.280 you start thinking

00:56:44.260 a little bit bigger

00:56:45.040 and for me

00:56:46.920 one of the reasons

00:56:48.360 why I got

00:56:49.060 into independent documentary

00:56:50.760 filmmaking

00:56:51.220 is because there's 0.98

00:56:52.360 no fucking way 0.96

00:56:53.640 this film 0.99

00:56:54.440 would ever have been made

00:56:55.800 by a broadcaster

00:56:56.680 or a studio

00:56:57.160 and what I love

00:56:59.040 about the independent space

00:57:00.220 it allows you

00:57:01.920 to dive into

00:57:03.340 these subjects

00:57:04.080 in a way

00:57:05.380 that does

00:57:06.760 challenge people's

00:57:07.940 perspective

00:57:08.380 that does push

00:57:09.720 the boundaries

00:57:10.280 that will ruffle feathers

00:57:12.140 and you know

00:57:14.340 the ultimate platform

00:57:15.680 for that independent space

00:57:17.680 for that independent voice

00:57:18.720 is

00:57:19.540 or it used to be

00:57:20.460 Sundance

00:57:21.460 and so

00:57:23.240 in terms of

00:57:24.360 the whole

00:57:25.280 freedom of expression

00:57:26.340 movement

00:57:26.980 freedom of the arts

00:57:28.100 movement

00:57:28.560 I naively thought

00:57:30.220 like yes

00:57:30.920 there's all these

00:57:31.340 other places

00:57:31.840 that are

00:57:32.320 you know

00:57:32.700 clamping down

00:57:33.360 but we're

00:57:33.740 independent filmmakers

00:57:34.700 we're independent

00:57:35.400 the whole

00:57:35.940 the whole reason

00:57:36.900 we do this

00:57:37.520 is because

00:57:37.980 we're not

00:57:39.080 bound by

00:57:40.260 advertisers

00:57:40.980 or you know

00:57:42.920 shareholders

00:57:44.000 and

00:57:46.000 what I realized

00:57:47.940 was

00:57:48.520 that

00:57:49.800 freedom of expression

00:57:51.680 and freedom

00:57:53.100 in the arts

00:57:54.080 is not a hill

00:57:55.700 to die on

00:57:56.240 it is the hill

00:57:57.480 it is

00:57:59.140 the hill

00:57:59.980 and for me

00:58:02.000 early on

00:58:03.580 when a lot of people

00:58:05.020 who I was working with

00:58:07.360 and who was advising me

00:58:08.520 said just apologize

00:58:09.380 just apologize

00:58:10.300 and I asked you

00:58:11.100 what am I apologizing for

00:58:12.260 like what did I do wrong

00:58:14.020 if there's something

00:58:15.040 in the film

00:58:15.600 that is factually inaccurate 0.98

00:58:16.700 and that we fucked up 0.99

00:58:17.540 yes 0.99

00:58:17.880 I will

00:58:18.600 when you do something wrong

00:58:19.640 you should apologize

00:58:20.240 but for me

00:58:20.880 apologizing

00:58:21.360 or apologies

00:58:23.260 are not performative 1.00

00:58:24.440 like if I fuck you over 1.00

00:58:26.280 I'm going to pull you aside 1.00

00:58:28.300 face to face

00:58:29.140 and genuinely say 0.99

00:58:30.260 like I fucked up 0.99

00:58:31.320 you deserved it 0.99

00:58:32.160 no I mean

00:58:33.340 I think that

00:58:34.480 like for me

00:58:35.640 you know

00:58:36.500 I make mistakes

00:58:37.220 all the time

00:58:37.800 of course

00:58:38.260 when you do something wrong

00:58:39.300 you should apologize

00:58:39.900 yes

00:58:40.220 of course

00:58:40.500 I get it

00:58:41.040 but you didn't do anything wrong

00:58:42.080 but when you don't

00:58:42.700 and the thing is

00:58:43.240 I think what you don't realize

00:58:44.580 is

00:58:44.860 is it wasn't just me

00:58:46.400 right away saying

00:58:47.540 I didn't do anything wrong

00:58:48.580 I literally took a step back

00:58:50.040 when we got all these attacks

00:58:51.160 right after Sundance

00:58:52.880 I did some test screenings

00:58:55.420 because I thought 0.99

00:58:55.860 shit 0.99

00:58:56.220 when someone comes at you 1.00

00:58:57.320 that hard

00:58:58.020 my instinct was

00:58:58.760 did I miss something

00:58:59.760 so we had three test screenings

00:59:02.000 right after Sundance

00:59:02.980 the first one was

00:59:04.240 a group of people

00:59:04.880 that were mixed

00:59:05.480 in terms of like

00:59:06.700 you had

00:59:07.100 so I asked them

00:59:08.000 I said raise your hand

00:59:08.680 if you've never heard

00:59:09.340 about this film before

00:59:10.120 half the people

00:59:11.140 raised their hand

00:59:11.660 okay raise your hand

00:59:13.160 if you've gone on Twitter

00:59:15.160 you know what the controversy

00:59:16.080 you read some of these op-eds

00:59:17.100 the other half raised their hand

00:59:18.560 they watched the film

00:59:20.020 I swear to God

00:59:21.320 down the line

00:59:22.280 everyone that came

00:59:23.300 to the film cold

00:59:23.960 loved the film

00:59:24.960 everyone that went on Twitter first

00:59:26.940 had all these issues with it

00:59:28.480 I was like okay

00:59:29.320 this is really interesting

00:59:30.080 what's the

00:59:30.580 you know

00:59:31.320 they filled all these

00:59:32.100 like feedback forms

00:59:32.940 I said what's the biggest issue

00:59:33.940 of the film

00:59:34.320 this woman raised her hand 1.00

00:59:36.260 and she said

00:59:36.780 clearly

00:59:37.320 these men didn't want 0.91

00:59:38.820 to be filmed

00:59:39.260 and they were uncomfortable

00:59:40.060 with you

00:59:40.520 and they were scared

00:59:41.080 for their life

00:59:41.660 and again

00:59:43.060 we screened the film

00:59:44.240 30 times before Sundance

00:59:45.200 that's not how they come across

00:59:46.020 at all

00:59:46.280 we never had that feedback

00:59:47.560 that's not how they come across

00:59:49.560 it's not true

00:59:50.140 yes

00:59:50.820 but they saw this somehow

00:59:52.900 so Meg

00:59:53.400 let me

00:59:53.820 I just want to finish this

00:59:54.620 so I asked her

00:59:56.340 I was like

00:59:56.700 what's in the film

00:59:58.860 specifically

00:59:59.580 gave you that impression

01:00:01.040 she said

01:00:01.820 well it was clear as day

01:00:02.660 in that scene

01:00:03.080 where Nader goes on furlough

01:00:04.280 where his cousin says

01:00:05.600 you know

01:00:05.780 we took two buildings from you

01:00:06.960 but you took two countries from us

01:00:08.320 the whole entire time

01:00:09.700 you're talking to his cousin

01:00:10.740 Nader's not even looking at you

01:00:12.880 he's not even talking to you

01:00:13.720 he's just looking straight ahead

01:00:14.640 so clearly he doesn't want to be filmed

01:00:16.280 and clearly

01:00:17.300 he doesn't want you to be filming him

01:00:19.780 because he won't even look at you

01:00:21.560 I said

01:00:22.380 okay

01:00:22.880 would it change your mind at all

01:00:24.920 to know

01:00:25.280 that when you're making a documentary film

01:00:27.200 if there's a TV or radio

01:00:29.180 on the background

01:00:30.380 you have to mute it

01:00:31.100 otherwise you can't cut the footage together

01:00:32.500 and that particular time

01:00:34.260 Nader

01:00:34.880 who's a huge soccer fan

01:00:36.360 his favorite team

01:00:37.520 was playing on the TV

01:00:38.380 and I'm filming this way

01:00:39.820 and the TV is behind me

01:00:40.820 so the reason he's staring straight ahead

01:00:42.560 and not engaged

01:00:43.120 because it's a tight game 1.00

01:00:44.200 he can give two shits 0.99

01:00:45.360 about my conversation 1.00

01:00:46.140 about politics

01:00:46.900 he wants to know

01:00:47.700 if Etihad's going to win

01:00:48.620 and what I mean by that is

01:00:51.000 that experience

01:00:52.080 of that test screening

01:00:52.860 made me realize

01:00:53.760 how strong confirmation bias can be

01:00:56.180 i.e. if I saw someone

01:00:57.340 you know

01:00:58.120 how do you say your first name again

01:01:00.460 my brain's farting

01:01:01.100 I know 1.00

01:01:01.220 I want you to fuck it up 1.00

01:01:02.280 so I can get back at you 1.00

01:01:03.340 it's Constantine

01:01:04.220 Constantine

01:01:04.900 right

01:01:05.560 Constantine

01:01:06.000 or Constantine

01:01:06.700 Constantine

01:01:07.660 Constantine

01:01:08.160 if I said Constantine

01:01:09.400 was a secret Nazi 0.75

01:01:11.020 you're like no

01:01:11.900 I've known him from years

01:01:12.620 he's fine

01:01:13.320 he's like a good guy

01:01:14.320 I mean you wouldn't be

01:01:14.960 the first person to say that

01:01:16.040 even though I'm Jewish

01:01:16.900 but like a lot of people

01:01:17.980 like said this enough times

01:01:19.400 about you

01:01:19.880 I'd be like hmm

01:01:20.860 and then I go to your house

01:01:21.940 and I see you have a guidebook

01:01:23.880 for Germany 0.99

01:01:24.540 I was like shit 1.00

01:01:25.260 that confirms it 0.99

01:01:26.320 I've heard all these things

01:01:27.080 why would he have a guidebook

01:01:28.160 from Germany

01:01:28.660 and it's just that

01:01:29.760 that confirmation bias

01:01:30.840 is so strong

01:01:31.580 so the next screening we did

01:01:33.440 I was like okay

01:01:34.040 I want to do a screening

01:01:35.760 where you want to find

01:01:36.740 a group of people

01:01:37.220 they were going to be pissed off

01:01:38.280 about this film

01:01:38.860 it would be them

01:01:39.720 so young politically active

01:01:41.440 so I went to the Yemeni Student Union

01:01:43.420 and we screened the film

01:01:45.160 cold

01:01:45.900 I didn't tell them the title

01:01:46.660 I didn't tell them anything about it

01:01:47.640 they loved it

01:01:48.920 one guy didn't

01:01:50.160 one guy said

01:01:50.640 we were too soft on the Saudis 1.00

01:01:52.800 and he wanted us to do

01:01:53.500 in the whole entire history

01:01:54.500 of the Middle East

01:01:55.520 and how all the bad things

01:01:56.340 Saudi Arabia did 0.93

01:01:57.140 I said maybe

01:01:57.920 but that's a different film

01:01:58.780 and then

01:02:00.780 we did another test screening

01:02:02.600 and we found the same thing

01:02:03.480 so once I did three test screenings

01:02:06.220 and we had the same

01:02:07.740 kind of positive reaction

01:02:08.600 we did before Sundance

01:02:09.720 I then sent it to

01:02:11.220 experts like Lawrence Wright

01:02:12.720 who also watched the film

01:02:13.700 people who

01:02:14.640 are really experts

01:02:15.820 in this field

01:02:16.380 and they all got back

01:02:17.040 said this film's brilliant

01:02:17.860 and so once I knew that

01:02:19.980 once I knew

01:02:20.980 beyond a shadow of a doubt

01:02:22.020 that I didn't miss something

01:02:23.140 that's when I was like 0.95

01:02:24.260 I'm not fucking apologizing 1.00

01:02:25.800 for this shit 1.00

01:02:26.520 because there's nothing wrong 1.00

01:02:27.820 with this film

01:02:28.340 well I love what you said

01:02:29.700 in the entire monologue there

01:02:32.280 and I love

01:02:32.860 sorry that was

01:02:33.560 I didn't use the word

01:02:35.620 monologue sarcastically

01:02:36.580 I thought what you said

01:02:37.460 was brilliant

01:02:37.880 and I agree with it completely

01:02:39.340 particularly about

01:02:41.240 freedom of expression

01:02:42.080 and freedom in the arts

01:02:43.000 which is

01:02:43.460 as we talked before we started

01:02:44.820 why we started our show

01:02:46.080 you know

01:02:46.740 we were two comedians

01:02:47.560 and so the question

01:02:48.900 it's a leading question

01:02:49.880 but I am curious

01:02:50.860 to ask you anyway

01:02:51.640 have you considered

01:02:52.420 the possibility

01:02:53.180 that attacks

01:02:54.100 and criticism of your film

01:02:55.360 are not well intentioned

01:02:56.540 I know this is unlikely for you

01:02:59.560 because you always want

01:03:00.340 to understand other people

01:03:01.580 but understanding other people

01:03:03.300 doesn't necessarily mean

01:03:04.440 giving them an undue benefit

01:03:07.320 of the doubt

01:03:07.960 here's the thing

01:03:10.980 when I told you this

01:03:13.200 I thought that in the beginning

01:03:14.340 but since then

01:03:15.300 I've done quite a lot of research

01:03:17.060 I was holding that belief

01:03:19.100 until March

01:03:20.120 mid-March

01:03:21.200 when someone sent me a video

01:03:22.700 so like I said

01:03:24.880 we'd reached out to this group

01:03:26.180 and we didn't know

01:03:26.940 who they were at first

01:03:27.640 but after Sundance

01:03:28.440 we did

01:03:28.900 and so my producer

01:03:30.020 actually knew

01:03:30.580 one of the leaders of this group

01:03:31.760 and he emailed her

01:03:33.060 several times

01:03:33.740 asking to meet her face to face

01:03:36.220 and to have a human

01:03:37.520 like conversation

01:03:38.720 about their concerns

01:03:40.060 with this film

01:03:40.660 because all this stuff

01:03:42.480 that they've been accused

01:03:43.380 of can be answered

01:03:44.340 if they either watch the film

01:03:45.440 or talk to me

01:03:46.120 about how the film was made

01:03:47.340 I think he reached out

01:03:49.360 to her over a half dozen times

01:03:51.140 every time she said

01:03:52.160 I don't want to talk to you

01:03:53.580 like I'm not going to help

01:03:54.580 rehab this film

01:03:55.500 it's not

01:03:56.580 now it's even bigger

01:03:57.680 than your film

01:03:58.240 it's not about your film

01:03:59.060 anymore

01:03:59.260 it's about the movement

01:04:00.000 and so

01:04:01.260 I was

01:04:03.320 we were trying to reach out

01:04:04.340 to him

01:04:04.520 and I thought

01:04:04.800 this was all in good faith

01:04:05.740 then mid-March

01:04:07.640 comes around

01:04:08.000 the same person

01:04:08.920 goes on a panel discussion

01:04:10.780 about my film

01:04:12.420 so a bunch of people

01:04:13.800 got together

01:04:14.200 and decided

01:04:14.700 they needed to have

01:04:15.800 a panel discussion

01:04:16.380 about how horrible

01:04:17.080 my film was

01:04:17.800 and during the panel discussion

01:04:19.440 she says

01:04:20.220 we have all these questions

01:04:21.620 and the filmmakers

01:04:22.200 aren't talking to us

01:04:23.220 they won't answer

01:04:23.820 any of our questions

01:04:24.640 they won't speak to us

01:04:26.040 so clearly

01:04:26.920 they're guilty

01:04:27.860 of everything

01:04:28.460 that we're accusing them of

01:04:29.480 now once I saw that

01:04:31.580 my response was

01:04:33.680 you're trying to tell me

01:04:35.540 that my ethics

01:04:36.660 are in question

01:04:38.720 where you're supposed

01:04:40.040 to be a truth teller

01:04:40.980 a journalist

01:04:41.460 a documentary filmmaker 1.00

01:04:42.360 and you're fucking 1.00

01:04:43.320 straight up lying 1.00

01:04:44.480 and misrepresenting

01:04:46.300 both my film

01:04:47.460 my team

01:04:48.640 and me

01:04:49.400 right

01:04:49.960 and so

01:04:51.280 that's when I stopped

01:04:52.540 what you were saying

01:04:53.760 being gracious

01:04:54.420 and being

01:04:55.060 trying to give someone

01:04:56.420 the benefit of the doubt

01:04:57.120 because I want everyone

01:04:58.160 to do that for me

01:04:58.960 and so I will give you

01:05:00.420 the benefit of the doubt

01:05:01.060 because I would want

01:05:02.240 someone to do the same

01:05:03.440 but when I see you lying

01:05:05.780 flat out lying

01:05:07.860 misrepresenting

01:05:09.320 when you attack

01:05:10.180 the people

01:05:11.140 my team

01:05:11.840 so for example

01:05:12.860 they took screenshots

01:05:13.840 of our credits

01:05:14.540 and reached out

01:05:15.560 to all the people

01:05:16.160 in the industry

01:05:16.680 in our credits

01:05:17.280 and basically harassed them

01:05:19.920 and threatened them

01:05:20.600 and encouraged them

01:05:21.520 to take their name

01:05:22.040 off the film

01:05:22.580 and I had

01:05:25.160 you know

01:05:25.440 team members

01:05:26.160 who received calls

01:05:27.320 and who

01:05:27.760 literally

01:05:28.660 were crying

01:05:29.780 for like an hour

01:05:30.480 and a half afterwards

01:05:31.220 and so for me

01:05:32.620 there's a difference

01:05:33.200 between criticizing

01:05:34.700 a film

01:05:35.140 which is normal

01:05:36.240 or a book

01:05:37.100 like you just

01:05:37.760 you came out

01:05:38.320 with a book

01:05:38.740 there's going to be

01:05:39.480 people who read

01:05:39.920 your book

01:05:40.180 and not like it

01:05:40.820 they're going to

01:05:41.060 go on Twitter

01:05:41.500 and be like

01:05:41.880 in chapter 4

01:05:42.500 he says this

01:05:43.120 and I disagree

01:05:43.500 with that

01:05:43.780 that's fine

01:05:44.580 how did you know

01:05:45.260 chapter 4

01:05:45.960 it is literally

01:05:46.940 chapter 4

01:05:47.740 read chapter 4

01:05:49.340 but I think

01:05:52.720 like

01:05:52.980 but that's the deal

01:05:53.960 that you make

01:05:54.440 right

01:05:54.720 you write a book

01:05:56.160 you make a movie

01:05:57.160 you put it out

01:05:57.820 in the public space

01:05:58.540 part of that

01:05:59.340 is you're going

01:06:00.060 to get criticism

01:06:00.600 however

01:06:01.440 there's a difference

01:06:02.860 between

01:06:03.360 someone criticizing

01:06:04.860 your work

01:06:05.300 which a lot of times

01:06:05.960 actually makes you

01:06:06.720 a better writer

01:06:07.260 right

01:06:07.800 makes you a better

01:06:08.460 storyteller

01:06:08.960 and then trying

01:06:10.540 to actually

01:06:11.160 blacklist your book

01:06:12.540 trying to

01:06:13.640 get it banned

01:06:15.140 or trying to

01:06:16.000 basically cancel you

01:06:17.340 and your whole

01:06:18.020 entire career

01:06:18.740 I agree

01:06:19.220 and I think

01:06:20.040 there's a difference

01:06:20.600 between

01:06:20.980 you know

01:06:21.800 inquiry

01:06:22.620 and inquisition

01:06:24.420 and we are

01:06:25.320 definitely in

01:06:25.940 inquisition territory

01:06:26.720 here

01:06:26.960 I agree with you

01:06:27.620 do you have a website

01:06:29.600 or do you plan

01:06:30.720 to have a website

01:06:31.680 because if you do

01:06:33.080 then EasyDNS

01:06:34.460 is a company

01:06:35.540 for you

01:06:36.140 EasyDNS

01:06:37.040 is the perfect

01:06:37.980 domain name

01:06:38.760 registrar provider

01:06:39.720 and web host

01:06:40.480 for you

01:06:40.880 they have a track

01:06:42.060 record of standing

01:06:42.980 up for their clients

01:06:43.920 whether it be

01:06:44.420 cancel culture

01:06:45.320 de-platform attacks

01:06:46.920 or overzealous

01:06:48.400 government agencies

01:06:49.580 he knows about that

01:06:51.420 so will you

01:06:52.240 in a second 0.78

01:06:52.840 EasyDNS

01:06:53.980 have rock solid

01:06:55.020 network infrastructure

01:06:55.960 and fantastic

01:06:57.020 customer support

01:06:58.120 they're in your corner

01:06:59.580 no matter what

01:07:00.680 the world throws at you

01:07:01.900 unless it's your

01:07:02.900 ex-girlfriend

01:07:03.560 in which case

01:07:04.520 you're on your own

01:07:05.480 you know about that

01:07:06.560 move your domains

01:07:08.080 and websites

01:07:08.720 over to EasyDNS

01:07:10.000 right now

01:07:10.740 all you've got to do

01:07:12.020 is go to

01:07:12.540 EasyDNS.com

01:07:13.940 forward slash

01:07:14.700 triggered

01:07:15.040 that's

01:07:15.560 EasyDNS.com

01:07:16.960 forward slash

01:07:17.820 triggered

01:07:18.140 use our promo code

01:07:19.400 which is also

01:07:20.060 triggered

01:07:20.400 and get 50%

01:07:21.660 off the initial

01:07:22.500 purchase

01:07:23.040 sign up for their

01:07:24.000 newsletter

01:07:24.600 Access of Easy

01:07:25.800 which tells you

01:07:26.740 everything you need

01:07:27.680 to know

01:07:28.020 about technology

01:07:29.260 privacy

01:07:30.000 and censorship

01:07:31.160 where do you think

01:07:33.820 the motivation

01:07:35.680 comes from then

01:07:36.540 I think there's

01:07:38.340 two different places

01:07:39.820 the two different

01:07:41.060 groups that attacked

01:07:41.800 the film are

01:07:42.900 one was a group

01:07:44.100 of independent

01:07:44.660 filmmakers

01:07:45.080 and I think

01:07:46.380 there was

01:07:49.060 people wanting

01:07:50.580 their work

01:07:51.680 to have

01:07:51.980 acknowledgement

01:07:52.620 wanting their work

01:07:54.200 to be platformed

01:07:55.220 by Sundance

01:07:55.800 and there was

01:07:58.380 another group

01:07:58.940 that I don't know

01:08:00.400 if you're familiar

01:08:00.920 with them

01:08:01.400 actually based

01:08:02.640 in the UK

01:08:03.060 called Cage

01:08:04.160 and I talked

01:08:05.920 to a lot of experts

01:08:06.700 who know way more

01:08:07.440 about that group

01:08:07.920 than me

01:08:08.320 and they were

01:08:08.980 described to me

01:08:09.700 as they're an

01:08:10.560 activist group

01:08:11.240 in the UK

01:08:11.720 that one of the

01:08:13.240 narratives they push

01:08:14.300 is that everyone

01:08:15.700 in Guantanamo

01:08:16.140 was completely

01:08:16.620 innocent

01:08:17.640 and never done

01:08:18.320 anything wrong

01:08:18.900 and that's true

01:08:19.640 for a lot of the

01:08:20.180 people that went

01:08:20.540 to Guantanamo

01:08:20.940 but that's not

01:08:21.460 true for everyone

01:08:22.060 and that's not

01:08:22.500 true for the

01:08:22.880 people in my film

01:08:23.560 and I specifically

01:08:25.080 cast these people

01:08:25.940 because from

01:08:26.600 their own mouth

01:08:27.380 they let you know

01:08:28.960 their level of

01:08:29.960 involvement

01:08:30.920 and so basically

01:08:33.160 this expert told me

01:08:34.700 that this group

01:08:35.900 will attack

01:08:36.780 any book

01:08:38.720 or movie

01:08:39.240 that challenges

01:08:39.900 that narrative

01:08:40.540 ferociously

01:08:41.380 with anything

01:08:42.580 from legal threats

01:08:44.260 to misinformation

01:08:45.120 campaigns

01:08:45.820 they have a reputation

01:08:47.720 according to a lot

01:08:48.440 of the experts

01:08:48.860 that I took

01:08:49.320 as being a very

01:08:49.780 nefarious group

01:08:50.520 and the really

01:08:51.460 scary thing was

01:08:52.200 is you had a group

01:08:52.820 like that

01:08:53.360 that was basically

01:08:54.740 teaming up

01:08:55.440 with a group

01:08:55.760 of progressive

01:08:56.400 independent filmmakers

01:08:57.500 to attack a film

01:08:58.940 so it was

01:09:00.620 it made for

01:09:01.120 really strange

01:09:02.220 bedfellows

01:09:02.880 and there's also

01:09:03.920 the identity

01:09:04.940 angle too

01:09:05.700 yeah

01:09:06.080 right

01:09:06.460 which is

01:09:07.360 I don't know

01:09:08.240 how you're aware

01:09:08.860 you are of this

01:09:10.000 but there's a big

01:09:10.940 war going on

01:09:12.240 in the sort of

01:09:13.600 cultural space

01:09:14.420 yeah

01:09:14.680 and you found

01:09:15.560 yourself in the

01:09:16.200 middle of that

01:09:16.720 it seems like

01:09:17.280 to me

01:09:17.580 well I think

01:09:18.140 I think yes

01:09:19.340 but I think for me

01:09:20.020 I was

01:09:20.300 I've come from

01:09:21.220 maybe a different

01:09:21.900 kind of era

01:09:22.740 where

01:09:23.920 it doesn't matter

01:09:25.740 if you're Russian

01:09:26.980 or you're British

01:09:28.100 or you're Filipino

01:09:29.360 it's

01:09:30.720 the work

01:09:31.620 right

01:09:32.500 so you're racist 0.96

01:09:33.160 like us 0.97

01:09:33.640 good

01:09:33.780 no

01:09:34.580 but that's how it works

01:09:35.680 the work should

01:09:36.220 of course

01:09:37.540 because the point is

01:09:38.760 that we're all

01:09:39.360 different people

01:09:40.060 right

01:09:40.280 but it's about

01:09:40.840 the thing that you

01:09:41.460 created

01:09:41.880 not your skin color

01:09:42.720 that's the idea

01:09:43.920 right

01:09:44.480 the idea for me

01:09:45.400 is that you

01:09:47.640 listen

01:09:49.080 when I first

01:09:50.160 started interviewing

01:09:51.060 these guys

01:09:51.600 if you go on

01:09:52.520 look on paper 1.00

01:09:53.160 we have fucking 0.98

01:09:54.180 nothing in common 0.98

01:09:54.880 so for example

01:09:55.640 the guy that I

01:09:56.340 kind of bonded with

01:09:58.040 the quickest

01:09:59.020 was Nodder

01:09:59.580 the reason for that is

01:10:01.680 when you're a firefighter

01:10:03.520 you see a lot of 1.00

01:10:04.540 horrific shit 1.00

01:10:05.140 and you also get 1.00

01:10:07.860 to be exposed

01:10:08.640 to some of the worst

01:10:09.440 things humans

01:10:10.000 can do to one another

01:10:10.720 on a pretty regular basis

01:10:12.220 and in order to

01:10:14.740 make it through

01:10:15.560 that job 0.53

01:10:16.160 you have to find a way

01:10:16.880 to process that stuff

01:10:18.400 to decompress

01:10:19.380 and how firefighters

01:10:20.720 at least the ones

01:10:21.360 I worked with

01:10:22.520 chose to do that

01:10:23.260 was through humor

01:10:23.980 and not like

01:10:25.220 the knock-knock joke

01:10:25.940 this is like

01:10:26.400 politically dark

01:10:27.860 politically incorrect

01:10:29.320 humor that in

01:10:29.800 any other environment

01:10:30.880 would get you fired

01:10:32.280 but it was just

01:10:33.360 a necessity

01:10:33.860 sometimes to get

01:10:34.620 through the day

01:10:35.040 and so

01:10:36.340 that kind of humor

01:10:37.720 I've only seen

01:10:38.200 in one other profession

01:10:39.180 military folks

01:10:41.180 who've seen combat

01:10:42.360 outside of that group

01:10:44.400 if you heard those jokes

01:10:46.080 it would just

01:10:47.560 never land right

01:10:48.560 right

01:10:49.260 you'd come up

01:10:49.740 some kind of like 0.99

01:10:50.320 psychopath 0.96

01:10:50.760 about joking

01:10:51.420 about trauma

01:10:52.000 and tragedy

01:10:52.580 and I never had

01:10:54.380 that kind of

01:10:55.100 interaction

01:10:55.580 with someone else

01:10:56.340 outside those two

01:10:57.420 kind of group

01:10:58.080 of friends of mine

01:10:58.920 until I met

01:11:00.280 Nader

01:11:00.520 when I first met

01:11:02.480 Nader

01:11:02.820 and we sat down

01:11:03.960 one-on-one

01:11:04.440 he told me

01:11:05.580 about his time

01:11:06.120 in Guantanamo

01:11:06.700 and things that

01:11:07.880 were done to him

01:11:08.540 but he did this all

01:11:10.820 with a smile

01:11:11.800 on his face

01:11:12.420 through bouts

01:11:13.420 of uncontrolled

01:11:14.140 laughter

01:11:14.520 and through

01:11:15.880 really really

01:11:16.680 dark jokes

01:11:17.540 and everyone

01:11:19.360 in that room

01:11:20.100 thought that

01:11:21.540 Nader was some 0.94

01:11:22.120 kind of psychopath 0.99

01:11:22.720 or just a flat out 0.97

01:11:23.760 line

01:11:24.060 but I knew better

01:11:24.760 not because I had

01:11:25.760 a crystal ball

01:11:26.420 not because I was

01:11:27.360 some kind of mind reader

01:11:28.120 but he told the same

01:11:29.800 kind of jokes

01:11:30.380 that my firefighter

01:11:31.160 buddies told me

01:11:31.840 so that meant to me

01:11:33.540 that he was still

01:11:34.300 processing this trauma

01:11:35.400 he was still like

01:11:36.500 working through it

01:11:37.540 and so for me

01:11:39.040 he would tell a joke

01:11:40.600 and I would tell one back

01:11:42.020 and we found this

01:11:42.880 like immediate rapport

01:11:43.920 and connection

01:11:44.780 over a shared love

01:11:45.640 of inappropriate humor

01:11:46.620 right

01:11:47.540 and the reason

01:11:49.880 why I tell that story

01:11:50.900 is because there were

01:11:51.560 people in that room

01:11:52.300 that on paper

01:11:52.920 had way more

01:11:53.500 in common with him

01:11:54.140 same sex

01:11:55.420 same religion

01:11:56.100 same ethnicity

01:11:56.780 but no one got

01:11:58.460 that level

01:11:59.060 except for me

01:12:00.000 and that was because

01:12:01.260 we had a shared life

01:12:02.160 experience of

01:12:03.300 going through

01:12:04.300 a really shitty situation

01:12:05.880 and having to use

01:12:07.160 humor to deal with it

01:12:08.060 and what I mean

01:12:09.180 by that is

01:12:09.880 humans are more

01:12:11.620 than the boxes

01:12:13.020 that you would check

01:12:13.780 on some census

01:12:14.620 we're made up

01:12:16.460 of so many

01:12:17.060 plethora of other

01:12:18.300 interesting things

01:12:19.040 that they don't even

01:12:19.520 have boxes for

01:12:20.560 and I think

01:12:22.660 because of that

01:12:23.280 I'm able to have

01:12:23.980 friends who aren't

01:12:25.280 my same race

01:12:25.960 or sexual identity

01:12:27.040 or whatever

01:12:27.820 and that's what

01:12:28.620 makes us beautiful

01:12:29.820 as human beings

01:12:30.600 as we're so

01:12:31.780 we have so many

01:12:32.760 interests

01:12:33.260 and so many

01:12:33.900 experiences

01:12:34.740 that make us

01:12:35.560 who we are

01:12:36.320 and I think that

01:12:36.980 sometimes we forget that

01:12:38.140 and there's a lot

01:12:39.880 of people that I

01:12:40.460 probably have more

01:12:41.160 in common with

01:12:41.780 on paper

01:12:42.260 but would not get

01:12:44.000 the kind of jokes

01:12:44.680 that Nader did

01:12:45.560 he told me once

01:12:46.820 he was like

01:12:47.140 Mike

01:12:47.360 you should go

01:12:48.840 on Guantanamo diet

01:12:49.640 you lose 40 pounds

01:12:50.560 in one month

01:12:51.020 you look really good

01:12:51.800 and he's talking

01:12:53.280 about you know

01:12:53.960 hunger strikes

01:12:54.820 he's got

01:12:55.220 he's joking

01:12:55.980 about hunger strikes

01:12:56.720 and I think that

01:12:58.440 what you have

01:12:59.920 to realize

01:13:00.520 is that

01:13:01.480 when you're talking

01:13:03.740 about

01:13:04.380 connecting

01:13:05.800 with another

01:13:06.200 human being

01:13:06.720 what you see

01:13:08.640 on a paper

01:13:09.240 is just

01:13:10.420 it literally

01:13:11.140 is that

01:13:12.340 deep

01:13:12.840 in terms of

01:13:13.380 what makes us

01:13:14.140 who we are

01:13:15.220 and so

01:13:16.340 when you're

01:13:17.340 talking about

01:13:17.880 identity

01:13:18.340 yes I think

01:13:19.420 there's something

01:13:19.980 to be said

01:13:20.680 about a story

01:13:21.680 being told

01:13:22.260 from an inside

01:13:23.020 perspective

01:13:23.560 because that's

01:13:24.380 a definitely

01:13:24.900 different perspective

01:13:25.740 that I couldn't

01:13:26.380 give

01:13:26.660 but there's also

01:13:28.080 a lot of

01:13:28.760 validity

01:13:29.080 to an outside

01:13:29.880 perspective

01:13:30.420 for example

01:13:31.900 I was a

01:13:32.780 firefighter

01:13:33.300 on 9-11

01:13:33.800 I had really

01:13:34.700 strong feelings

01:13:36.020 about this

01:13:36.960 whole

01:13:37.760 thing

01:13:38.500 from the

01:13:39.700 get-go

01:13:40.040 and from

01:13:40.440 a very

01:13:40.720 different

01:13:40.940 perspective

01:13:41.380 and when

01:13:42.540 9-11

01:13:42.960 happened

01:13:43.400 I saw

01:13:44.080 my country

01:13:44.680 as the

01:13:45.440 victim

01:13:45.720 but then

01:13:47.340 when I moved

01:13:47.720 to the

01:13:47.920 Middle East

01:13:48.240 and I moved

01:13:48.560 to Yemen

01:13:48.940 and I saw

01:13:49.960 what my own

01:13:50.400 government

01:13:50.660 was doing

01:13:51.200 in the region

01:13:51.720 I looked

01:13:52.900 at my

01:13:53.180 country

01:13:53.560 as a

01:13:54.300 perpetrator

01:13:54.720 and so

01:13:55.460 I had

01:13:55.620 like one

01:13:56.040 foot in

01:13:56.400 each

01:13:56.560 camp

01:13:56.960 so as

01:13:58.360 I was

01:13:58.600 making

01:13:58.880 this film

01:13:59.380 that was

01:13:59.720 constantly

01:14:00.160 on my

01:14:00.520 mind

01:14:00.860 and I

01:14:01.080 was thinking

01:14:01.420 about my

01:14:01.820 firefighter

01:14:02.340 buddies

01:14:02.540 and what

01:14:04.040 we went

01:14:04.380 through

01:14:04.660 but I was

01:14:05.400 also thinking

01:14:05.900 about all

01:14:06.500 the Yemeni

01:14:06.920 friends

01:14:07.260 that I

01:14:07.500 made

01:14:07.800 and family

01:14:08.360 in Yemen

01:14:08.740 and all

01:14:09.800 the people

01:14:10.800 that got

01:14:11.120 disappeared

01:14:11.640 or thrown

01:14:12.060 in Guantanamo

01:14:12.640 or like

01:14:13.520 the random

01:14:14.620 drone bombings

01:14:15.660 and I think

01:14:17.280 that those

01:14:17.940 two life

01:14:18.440 experiences

01:14:19.060 gave me

01:14:19.960 a very

01:14:20.400 unique

01:14:20.780 perspective

01:14:21.320 not just

01:14:22.660 to make

01:14:23.080 this film

01:14:23.540 but into

01:14:23.900 this world

01:14:24.520 yep

01:14:26.060 I don't know

01:14:26.820 if that

01:14:27.000 did I ramble

01:14:27.540 on to

01:14:27.840 I'm just

01:14:28.160 telling me

01:14:28.480 you said

01:14:30.300 that beautifully

01:14:30.760 that's a

01:14:31.180 brilliant

01:14:31.460 summation

01:14:32.040 of why

01:14:33.340 you made

01:14:34.020 this film

01:14:34.540 which was

01:14:34.940 so powerful

01:14:35.640 and had

01:14:37.020 such an

01:14:37.640 impact

01:14:38.040 on the

01:14:38.740 audience

01:14:39.000 who watched

01:14:39.400 it

01:14:39.520 and particularly

01:14:40.020 on me

01:14:40.520 so what does

01:14:41.480 the future

01:14:41.840 now hold

01:14:42.320 for you Meg

01:14:42.760 and your

01:14:43.120 film

01:14:43.420 yeah so

01:14:44.520 basically

01:14:45.260 we've pretty

01:14:45.800 much been

01:14:46.100 blacklisted

01:14:46.620 for entire

01:14:47.660 year

01:14:47.980 and untouchable

01:14:49.420 very fortunate

01:14:51.300 that the film

01:14:52.700 was talked

01:14:53.180 about and

01:14:53.640 vindicated

01:14:54.320 on the cover

01:14:54.760 the New York

01:14:55.180 Times

01:14:55.660 the National

01:14:56.640 Review

01:14:57.000 the Atlantic

01:14:57.980 Sam Harris

01:14:59.020 podcast

01:14:59.420 and the

01:15:00.940 whole reason

01:15:01.360 why we're

01:15:01.720 here is

01:15:02.280 because

01:15:02.660 right after

01:15:03.740 it appeared

01:15:04.760 on the cover

01:15:05.380 of the

01:15:05.840 New York

01:15:06.640 Times

01:15:06.940 a bunch

01:15:07.220 of people

01:15:07.460 reached out

01:15:07.980 and said

01:15:08.540 how can we

01:15:09.500 help

01:15:09.780 this seems

01:15:10.320 like a huge

01:15:10.860 injustice

01:15:11.300 do you have

01:15:12.720 a GoFundMe

01:15:13.280 I'm like

01:15:13.640 I don't

01:15:14.220 but maybe

01:15:14.620 I should

01:15:14.860 make one

01:15:15.260 so I made

01:15:17.200 a GoFundMe

01:15:17.800 and I think

01:15:19.220 we got like

01:15:19.640 $3,000

01:15:20.220 I think

01:15:21.780 a thousand

01:15:22.320 of that

01:15:22.560 was probably

01:15:22.960 from my

01:15:23.280 family

01:15:23.620 like all

01:15:24.760 scrapping

01:15:25.080 together

01:15:25.440 and then

01:15:26.980 I went

01:15:28.200 on the

01:15:28.640 Sam Harris

01:15:29.060 podcast

01:15:29.400 and had

01:15:31.060 a long

01:15:31.340 conversation

01:15:31.820 with him

01:15:32.280 about the

01:15:33.320 film

01:15:33.620 and what

01:15:35.220 was happening

01:15:35.680 to it

01:15:36.080 and he was

01:15:36.940 very generous

01:15:37.400 and put it

01:15:38.160 up without a

01:15:38.500 paywall

01:15:38.780 so anyone

01:15:40.040 could kind

01:15:41.240 of listen

01:15:41.720 to it

01:15:42.060 and so

01:15:42.260 people forwarded

01:15:42.920 it on

01:15:43.100 it kind

01:15:43.320 of went

01:15:43.500 viral

01:15:43.920 and the

01:15:44.760 GoFundMe

01:15:45.240 went from

01:15:45.980 $3,000

01:15:46.860 to three

01:15:47.360 quarters of a

01:15:47.880 million

01:15:48.080 and so we

01:15:49.100 were able

01:15:49.340 to bring

01:15:49.860 the film

01:15:50.420 to theaters

01:15:50.960 and so right

01:15:51.700 now what

01:15:52.120 we're trying

01:15:52.480 to do

01:15:52.920 is bring

01:15:53.400 the film

01:15:53.800 to people

01:15:54.320 to be able

01:15:54.980 for them

01:15:55.280 to see it

01:15:55.760 and make

01:15:55.980 up their

01:15:56.220 own mind

01:15:56.760 and one

01:15:57.420 of the

01:15:57.540 reasons why

01:15:57.900 we're in

01:15:58.180 Britain

01:15:58.340 is we had

01:15:58.820 loads of

01:15:59.340 people reach

01:15:59.800 out from

01:16:00.320 the UK

01:16:00.700 who were

01:16:01.500 Sam Harris

01:16:01.960 listeners

01:16:02.340 or listen

01:16:03.060 to the

01:16:03.260 podcast

01:16:03.700 and just

01:16:03.980 were like

01:16:04.220 please

01:16:04.620 we'd love

01:16:05.060 to see

01:16:05.280 this film

01:16:05.680 so that

01:16:06.740 was one

01:16:07.120 reason

01:16:07.400 another

01:16:07.660 reason

01:16:07.940 is we

01:16:08.160 had someone

01:16:08.520 from BAFTA

01:16:09.100 reach out

01:16:09.560 and they

01:16:10.640 were curious

01:16:11.140 and so I

01:16:11.640 sent them

01:16:11.900 a link

01:16:12.240 and they're

01:16:12.460 like this

01:16:13.100 film is

01:16:13.460 like BAFTA

01:16:14.300 worthy

01:16:14.560 like you

01:16:14.860 should bring

01:16:15.160 it over

01:16:15.440 here

01:16:15.740 and like

01:16:16.160 qualify

01:16:16.960 it for

01:16:17.320 BAFTA

01:16:17.800 maybe the

01:16:18.660 British

01:16:18.980 public

01:16:19.700 will give

01:16:20.000 you a 0.57

01:16:20.340 fair shake

01:16:21.180 where the

01:16:21.400 Americans

01:16:21.640 didn't

01:16:22.660 and so

01:16:23.940 we came

01:16:24.240 over here

01:16:24.680 and the

01:16:24.900 reason why

01:16:25.260 we're playing

01:16:25.760 at the

01:16:26.420 art house

01:16:26.920 Crouch End

01:16:27.460 in London

01:16:27.900 is to

01:16:28.540 basically

01:16:29.020 for the

01:16:30.040 BAFTA

01:16:30.240 qualification

01:16:30.800 and so

01:16:31.540 all this

01:16:32.380 month

01:16:32.800 until I

01:16:33.900 think

01:16:34.100 December

01:16:34.500 30th

01:16:35.340 BAFTA

01:16:35.900 members are

01:16:36.380 voting for

01:16:36.860 best

01:16:37.140 documentary

01:16:37.620 best

01:16:37.960 foreign

01:16:38.200 language

01:16:38.520 film

01:16:38.960 best

01:16:39.240 director

01:16:39.560 these

01:16:39.760 kinds

01:16:39.960 of

01:16:40.080 things

01:16:40.380 I know

01:16:41.240 it's

01:16:41.400 a long

01:16:41.780 shot

01:16:42.100 but one

01:16:43.120 of the

01:16:43.280 reasons

01:16:43.500 we're

01:16:43.700 doing

01:16:43.980 this

01:16:44.320 is

01:16:44.820 Sundance

01:16:46.160 is such

01:16:46.500 a well

01:16:46.840 respected

01:16:47.260 entity

01:16:47.780 by them

01:16:48.980 apologizing

01:16:49.960 for the

01:16:50.260 film

01:16:50.520 made it

01:16:51.480 radioactive

01:16:51.920 and even

01:16:52.980 though we

01:16:53.460 have all

01:16:54.040 these other

01:16:54.460 institutions

01:16:54.980 like the

01:16:55.300 New York

01:16:55.500 Times

01:16:55.760 and the

01:16:55.940 Atlantic

01:16:56.220 vindicating

01:16:57.140 the film

01:16:57.600 unfortunately

01:16:58.480 within the

01:16:58.940 small fishbowl

01:16:59.940 that is

01:17:00.540 the film

01:17:01.180 industry

01:17:01.520 we're still

01:17:02.880 pretty

01:17:03.160 radioactive

01:17:03.720 and so

01:17:05.700 the only

01:17:06.700 way to

01:17:06.940 kind of

01:17:07.160 undo that

01:17:07.820 is to

01:17:08.160 have another

01:17:08.760 entity

01:17:09.700 within the

01:17:10.200 film

01:17:10.380 industry

01:17:10.740 validate

01:17:11.340 the film

01:17:11.780 and so

01:17:13.120 that's

01:17:13.900 probably

01:17:15.620 only going

01:17:16.060 to be

01:17:16.280 either

01:17:16.520 the

01:17:16.680 Academy

01:17:17.040 or BAFTA

01:17:17.880 and I

01:17:18.660 not holding

01:17:19.740 my breath

01:17:20.320 for the

01:17:20.640 Academy

01:17:21.000 but I'm

01:17:21.520 hoping

01:17:21.920 I went

01:17:22.800 into the

01:17:23.020 BBC

01:17:23.280 today

01:17:23.780 to give

01:17:24.640 an interview

01:17:25.080 and on

01:17:25.620 the cover

01:17:26.380 or on

01:17:26.780 the side

01:17:27.280 of the

01:17:27.540 building

01:17:27.740 there was

01:17:28.000 this quote

01:17:28.460 I think

01:17:28.800 it said

01:17:29.080 something

01:17:29.340 like

01:17:30.220 it was

01:17:33.240 something

01:17:33.500 like

01:17:34.000 George Orwell

01:17:36.820 yeah

01:17:37.380 it was

01:17:38.040 if liberty

01:17:39.140 is anything

01:17:39.840 it's telling

01:17:40.380 people

01:17:40.740 things they

01:17:42.700 don't want

01:17:42.980 to hear

01:17:43.240 and I

01:17:43.900 saw that

01:17:44.580 it's kind

01:17:45.040 of like

01:17:45.220 an omen

01:17:45.560 before I

01:17:45.940 went into

01:17:46.580 the interview

01:17:47.120 I was

01:17:47.300 like

01:17:47.420 maybe

01:17:48.060 this

01:17:48.280 maybe

01:17:48.540 this

01:17:48.720 country

01:17:48.920 is

01:17:49.060 different

01:17:49.320 maybe

01:17:49.580 they

01:17:49.740 care

01:17:49.940 about

01:17:50.360 freedom

01:17:51.420 of

01:17:51.580 expression

01:17:52.100 freedom

01:17:52.560 in the

01:17:52.720 arts

01:17:53.000 we

01:17:53.420 won't

01:17:53.720 disabuse

01:17:54.280 you

01:17:54.440 of that

01:17:54.760 but the

01:17:56.420 BBC

01:17:56.700 has long

01:17:57.100 since

01:17:57.360 abandoned

01:17:57.740 that

01:17:58.000 anyway

01:17:58.320 Meg

01:17:59.400 it's a

01:18:00.100 brilliant

01:18:00.360 film

01:18:00.820 and I

01:18:02.180 think

01:18:02.540 the way

01:18:03.140 you

01:18:03.460 talk

01:18:04.080 about

01:18:04.380 these

01:18:04.620 issues

01:18:04.960 is really

01:18:05.460 important

01:18:05.820 actually

01:18:06.180 and I'm

01:18:07.960 really

01:18:08.260 you know

01:18:08.740 I'm so

01:18:09.100 grateful

01:18:09.380 because

01:18:09.740 on

01:18:10.120 Trigonometry

01:18:10.560 we often

01:18:11.040 talk to

01:18:11.400 people

01:18:11.620 who've

01:18:11.880 had

01:18:12.060 things

01:18:12.360 cancelled

01:18:12.760 or

01:18:12.980 been

01:18:13.320 denied

01:18:14.320 an

01:18:16.580 wrong

01:18:16.860 thing

01:18:17.180 or

01:18:17.360 they've

01:18:17.520 got

01:18:17.660 the

01:18:17.800 wrong

01:18:17.940 skin

01:18:18.180 colour

01:18:18.420 whatever

01:18:18.720 but

01:18:19.200 actually

01:18:19.480 I'm

01:18:19.780 just

01:18:19.940 really

01:18:20.160 grateful

01:18:20.540 that

01:18:20.960 we've

01:18:22.120 encountered

01:18:22.640 your film

01:18:23.200 that

01:18:23.400 otherwise

01:18:23.800 we probably

01:18:24.160 wouldn't have

01:18:24.540 seen

01:18:24.780 as a result

01:18:25.480 of everything

01:18:26.120 that's

01:18:26.380 happening

01:18:26.660 so

01:18:27.020 wish you

01:18:27.920 all the

01:18:28.160 best

01:18:28.380 maybe

01:18:28.780 at some

01:18:29.660 point

01:18:29.900 the film

01:18:30.280 could be

01:18:30.580 available

01:18:30.880 online

01:18:31.260 for people

01:18:31.640 to pay

01:18:31.960 and watch

01:18:32.180 yeah

01:18:32.380 so my

01:18:33.100 hope

01:18:33.440 is

01:18:33.980 we

01:18:35.120 bring

01:18:35.660 the film

01:18:36.040 to

01:18:36.420 the kind

01:18:37.040 of game

01:18:37.360 plan

01:18:37.560 right now

01:18:38.060 is

01:18:38.400 try to

01:18:39.040 get it

01:18:40.220 get it

01:18:40.520 for at least

01:18:41.120 a nomination

01:18:41.600 some kind

01:18:42.060 of validation

01:18:42.660 within the

01:18:43.040 film

01:18:43.180 industry

01:18:43.560 and if

01:18:44.500 from that

01:18:45.320 hopefully

01:18:45.620 that emboldens

01:18:46.520 some distributors

01:18:47.400 or buyers

01:18:48.000 or streamers

01:18:48.740 or broadcasters

01:18:49.520 to pick it up

01:18:51.440 hint hint

01:18:52.240 HBO

01:18:52.680 Netflix

01:18:53.180 but

01:18:55.400 it's worthy

01:18:56.300 of it

01:18:56.700 yeah

01:18:56.920 yeah

01:18:57.360 I think

01:18:57.940 that

01:18:58.180 but also

01:18:58.680 I've talked

01:18:59.440 to a lot

01:18:59.640 of people

01:18:59.880 who've done

01:19:00.180 self-distribution

01:19:00.900 and my goal

01:19:02.040 for the film

01:19:02.620 is to have

01:19:03.480 as many people

01:19:04.180 watch it

01:19:04.580 as possible

01:19:05.060 because I do

01:19:05.980 think that

01:19:06.620 so many people

01:19:07.360 who've seen

01:19:07.840 the film

01:19:08.240 in London

01:19:09.140 have had

01:19:09.900 such a huge

01:19:10.880 positive impact

01:19:11.760 from watching

01:19:12.260 the film

01:19:12.640 and I think

01:19:13.820 that it's a

01:19:14.280 disservice

01:19:14.680 that more

01:19:15.500 people can't 0.97

01:19:16.300 see it

01:19:16.700 and so

01:19:17.660 when I was

01:19:17.920 talking to

01:19:18.180 my friend

01:19:18.540 who does

01:19:19.020 self-distribution

01:19:19.680 he said

01:19:20.000 listen

01:19:20.320 you're never

01:19:21.000 going to get

01:19:21.360 the audience

01:19:21.940 size

01:19:22.640 putting on

01:19:24.380 like some

01:19:24.800 random website

01:19:25.660 with a paywall

01:19:26.280 behind it

01:19:26.740 that you will

01:19:27.180 if it goes

01:19:27.540 on Netflix

01:19:28.000 or HBO

01:19:28.520 or something

01:19:28.860 like that

01:19:29.320 so the goal

01:19:30.520 now is to

01:19:31.300 try to get

01:19:31.800 some kind

01:19:32.140 of validation

01:19:32.700 within the

01:19:33.260 film world

01:19:33.760 to be able

01:19:34.520 to give

01:19:35.200 those buyers

01:19:36.760 maybe a little

01:19:38.500 bit of bravery

01:19:39.100 to be able

01:19:39.780 to pick the

01:19:40.120 film up

01:19:40.500 if that does

01:19:41.200 not happen

01:19:41.960 plan B

01:19:43.020 is to

01:19:43.960 self-distribute

01:19:44.580 online

01:19:44.980 so take

01:19:46.620 the film

01:19:47.000 out

01:19:47.340 show it

01:19:48.080 to all

01:19:48.600 these different

01:19:49.340 kind of people

01:19:50.000 in different

01:19:50.440 places

01:19:50.920 around the

01:19:52.140 world

01:19:52.460 build an

01:19:53.480 audience of

01:19:53.960 people who've

01:19:54.360 really seen

01:19:54.840 the film

01:19:55.280 so that way

01:19:55.920 when the film

01:19:56.280 does go up

01:19:56.860 online eventually

01:19:57.420 what happened

01:19:58.720 at Sundance

01:19:59.180 won't happen

01:19:59.620 again

01:19:59.900 you won't have

01:20:00.640 a bunch of

01:20:00.980 people just

01:20:01.420 telling you

01:20:01.760 what the film

01:20:02.140 is about

01:20:02.440 and no one

01:20:02.780 has seen

01:20:03.040 it

01:20:03.240 you'd have

01:20:03.820 people that

01:20:04.240 have seen

01:20:04.620 the film

01:20:04.980 and can

01:20:05.260 defend it

01:20:05.940 when these

01:20:06.380 lies

01:20:06.640 come up

01:20:07.160 again

01:20:07.280 which they

01:20:07.620 will

01:20:07.820 and I

01:20:08.620 think

01:20:08.960 for me

01:20:10.060 because there's

01:20:10.840 just me

01:20:11.340 and staff

01:20:12.100 just the two

01:20:12.540 of us

01:20:12.940 we don't have

01:20:13.640 a huge team

01:20:14.120 that takes

01:20:14.480 time

01:20:14.800 so right

01:20:15.380 now we're

01:20:15.740 working to

01:20:16.240 try to find

01:20:16.860 a way to

01:20:17.440 get it up

01:20:18.260 online

01:20:18.660 which takes

01:20:19.180 like a couple

01:20:19.620 months unfortunately

01:20:20.380 but it's a long

01:20:21.220 process

01:20:21.780 it's around three

01:20:23.060 months to get

01:20:23.580 something up

01:20:23.960 online like

01:20:24.420 this

01:20:24.760 well if you do

01:20:25.580 end up going

01:20:26.160 in that

01:20:26.580 self-distribution

01:20:27.380 direction we'd

01:20:28.120 love to help

01:20:28.580 in any way

01:20:29.060 yeah that would

01:20:30.040 be awesome

01:20:30.840 of course

01:20:31.480 of course

01:20:31.980 I really think

01:20:32.640 more people

01:20:33.040 should see it

01:20:33.560 and I also

01:20:34.260 think people

01:20:34.960 who are as

01:20:35.920 nuanced and

01:20:36.460 as sensible

01:20:36.940 about these

01:20:37.500 things as you

01:20:38.020 are

01:20:38.240 you know

01:20:40.780 this is the

01:20:41.880 problem with

01:20:42.560 the world that

01:20:43.140 we live in at

01:20:43.580 the moment

01:20:43.860 it is the

01:20:44.580 sensible people

01:20:45.360 it is the

01:20:45.960 people who

01:20:46.520 are balanced

01:20:47.060 it is the

01:20:47.500 people who

01:20:47.860 are in the

01:20:48.120 centre

01:20:48.380 that are

01:20:48.640 the most

01:20:48.900 vulnerable

01:20:49.260 if you

01:20:50.480 if you

01:20:50.860 made a

01:20:51.260 film

01:20:51.580 talking about

01:20:52.400 how Muslims 0.99

01:20:52.820 are all 1.00

01:20:53.160 terrorists

01:20:53.560 there would

01:20:53.940 be a large

01:20:54.400 audience for

01:20:54.900 that

01:20:55.140 and the

01:20:55.860 fact that

01:20:56.320 people on

01:20:56.760 the left

01:20:57.000 tried to

01:20:57.360 cancel you

01:20:57.960 would only

01:20:58.680 help you

01:20:59.440 promote the

01:20:59.960 film

01:21:00.160 and if you'd

01:21:00.920 made a film

01:21:01.480 about how

01:21:02.040 all terrorists

01:21:02.720 are actually

01:21:03.160 innocent

01:21:03.540 there'd be a

01:21:04.280 large audience

01:21:04.880 on the other

01:21:05.300 side of the

01:21:05.700 political

01:21:06.000 spectrum

01:21:06.440 and the fact

01:21:07.200 that the

01:21:07.500 right was

01:21:07.900 attacking it

01:21:08.460 would help

01:21:08.860 you

01:21:09.040 but because

01:21:09.760 you actually

01:21:10.420 have taken

01:21:10.880 a sensible

01:21:11.440 and reasonable

01:21:12.060 and balanced

01:21:12.520 position

01:21:12.960 that's why

01:21:14.080 you're left

01:21:14.780 without a big

01:21:15.500 tribe on your

01:21:16.220 team

01:21:16.600 and that's why

01:21:17.700 it's become

01:21:18.120 as hard

01:21:18.420 and to me

01:21:18.760 that's the

01:21:19.120 real tragedy

01:21:19.660 of the cultural

01:21:20.220 moment that

01:21:20.660 we're in

01:21:20.960 is people

01:21:21.360 like you

01:21:21.840 who are

01:21:22.760 who are

01:21:23.880 prevented from

01:21:24.480 making things

01:21:25.100 that actually

01:21:25.740 matter

01:21:26.100 and are

01:21:26.480 actually good

01:21:27.260 and the

01:21:28.000 knock-on effect

01:21:28.600 unfortunately

01:21:29.120 has been

01:21:29.640 even worse

01:21:30.080 than that

01:21:30.480 so what I

01:21:31.080 mean by that

01:21:31.540 is

01:21:31.760 so when Sundance

01:21:32.880 apologized for

01:21:33.600 the film

01:21:34.000 there was

01:21:34.280 another film

01:21:34.740 at Sundance

01:21:35.160 the same

01:21:35.560 year as

01:21:35.780 me

01:21:35.880 called

01:21:36.040 The Exiles

01:21:36.560 and a

01:21:38.660 different group

01:21:39.180 then started

01:21:40.040 to go after

01:21:40.420 that group

01:21:40.880 and on Twitter

01:21:41.840 they cited

01:21:42.580 their reason

01:21:43.200 for them

01:21:43.560 going after

01:21:44.040 The Exiles

01:21:44.660 was that

01:21:45.580 they cited

01:21:46.180 the success

01:21:46.900 that the group

01:21:47.360 had come

01:21:48.300 after me

01:21:48.900 and garnished

01:21:49.480 Sundance

01:21:49.820 apology

01:21:50.220 and so that

01:21:51.380 inspired other

01:21:52.000 people to try

01:21:52.860 to take out

01:21:53.260 other films

01:21:53.960 the knock-on

01:21:54.940 effect being

01:21:55.620 at the end

01:21:56.500 of the day

01:21:56.720 if you take

01:21:57.080 it to this

01:21:57.420 natural ending

01:21:58.320 then film

01:21:59.140 festivals and

01:21:59.960 programmers

01:22:00.380 are only in

01:22:00.860 their programs

01:22:01.240 say films

01:22:02.080 which then

01:22:03.060 does a disservice

01:22:03.960 to the populace

01:22:04.640 that don't get

01:22:05.000 exposed to these

01:22:05.640 other stories

01:22:06.340 and one thing

01:22:07.860 that's been

01:22:08.200 extremely alarming

01:22:09.940 for me

01:22:10.520 is I spent

01:22:11.760 over a half

01:22:12.380 decade

01:22:12.720 interviewing men

01:22:14.880 who a lot of

01:22:15.820 them ascribe

01:22:16.520 to a certain

01:22:17.000 ideology

01:22:17.520 right

01:22:18.460 you're either

01:22:18.880 this type

01:22:19.960 of specific

01:22:20.740 Salafi Muslim

01:22:21.600 either believe

01:22:22.760 these specific

01:22:23.440 things and act

01:22:24.300 this specific

01:22:24.800 way

01:22:25.120 and if you

01:22:26.280 deviate

01:22:26.780 just a little

01:22:27.660 bit

01:22:27.940 then you're

01:22:28.660 not a real

01:22:29.060 Muslim 0.90

01:22:29.420 then you're 1.00

01:22:30.200 an infidel 1.00

01:22:30.640 and you can

01:22:31.380 be targeted

01:22:31.860 I then come

01:22:33.500 back to my

01:22:33.900 home country

01:22:34.540 and I see

01:22:35.640 something that's

01:22:36.140 quite alarming

01:22:36.660 and it's a

01:22:38.540 very similar

01:22:39.820 kind of feel

01:22:40.960 of an ideology

01:22:41.720 but in a

01:22:42.780 different

01:22:43.000 iteration

01:22:43.440 for example

01:22:44.700 you're either

01:22:45.100 this type

01:22:45.580 of progressive

01:22:46.180 liberal

01:22:46.920 you have to

01:22:47.980 believe these

01:22:48.500 specific things

01:22:49.700 of the day

01:22:50.840 but if you

01:22:52.120 deviate

01:22:52.620 just a little

01:22:53.200 bit

01:22:53.460 then you're

01:22:54.260 not a real

01:22:54.860 liberal

01:22:55.560 you're not a

01:22:56.240 real progressive

01:22:56.760 you're sexist 0.99

01:22:58.440 you're homophobic 1.00

01:22:59.280 you're racist 1.00

01:22:59.820 and you can 0.94

01:23:00.320 be targeted

01:23:00.760 and for me

01:23:02.660 I've been in a

01:23:04.200 world where that

01:23:04.740 goes to its

01:23:05.420 natural

01:23:06.040 fruition

01:23:07.280 and it's

01:23:07.920 scary

01:23:08.260 and so

01:23:09.660 seeing that

01:23:10.820 kind of

01:23:11.620 ideology

01:23:12.900 and I do

01:23:13.720 mean the word

01:23:14.180 ideology

01:23:14.760 because there

01:23:15.340 are people

01:23:15.780 who I know

01:23:16.860 personally

01:23:17.820 who I

01:23:18.800 considered

01:23:19.520 friends

01:23:20.260 who

01:23:21.680 didn't watch

01:23:23.180 the film

01:23:23.600 but then

01:23:24.720 decided to

01:23:25.220 go online

01:23:25.860 and just

01:23:26.680 bad mouth

01:23:27.160 it in me

01:23:27.780 because they

01:23:28.800 believed

01:23:29.460 that that

01:23:30.160 was the

01:23:30.440 right thing

01:23:30.820 to do

01:23:31.300 be it

01:23:31.920 virtue

01:23:32.280 signaling

01:23:32.760 or be it

01:23:33.800 they thought

01:23:34.180 it was

01:23:34.440 a righteous

01:23:35.640 cause

01:23:36.020 and what

01:23:36.220 I mean

01:23:36.520 by that

01:23:36.860 is

01:23:37.020 the reason

01:23:37.820 why I

01:23:38.100 don't think

01:23:38.500 these people

01:23:38.960 are evil 0.86

01:23:39.320 or these

01:23:39.580 people are

01:23:39.880 mean

01:23:40.080 or bad

01:23:41.000 people

01:23:41.300 it's just

01:23:41.740 what you

01:23:42.360 have to

01:23:42.580 understand

01:23:42.860 about the

01:23:43.140 documentary

01:23:43.520 community

01:23:43.980 it's made

01:23:44.800 up of a

01:23:45.540 lot of

01:23:45.860 people

01:23:46.220 who really

01:23:47.440 want to

01:23:48.100 do good

01:23:48.360 in the

01:23:48.560 world

01:23:48.780 who really

01:23:49.640 want to

01:23:49.900 change

01:23:50.180 the world

01:23:50.640 be a better

01:23:51.300 place

01:23:51.740 the only

01:23:53.620 downside

01:23:54.140 of that

01:23:54.560 is in that

01:23:55.380 environment

01:23:55.880 it's also

01:23:56.680 extremely easy

01:23:58.000 to weaponize

01:23:59.160 empathy

01:23:59.600 and so

01:24:01.120 if you're

01:24:01.560 trying to

01:24:02.000 be supportive

01:24:02.520 of a

01:24:02.880 minority

01:24:03.220 group

01:24:03.680 and someone

01:24:04.380 tells you

01:24:05.040 that this

01:24:05.760 film

01:24:06.220 is hurtful

01:24:07.280 you believe

01:24:08.380 that minority 0.57

01:24:08.960 group

01:24:09.380 and you

01:24:10.340 want to

01:24:10.780 help

01:24:11.100 champion

01:24:11.640 their

01:24:11.880 cause

01:24:12.380 but the

01:24:13.320 problem

01:24:13.680 is

01:24:14.200 when you're

01:24:15.160 a journalist

01:24:15.820 and you're

01:24:16.660 a truth

01:24:17.020 teller

01:24:17.460 and you're

01:24:18.160 a documentary

01:24:18.600 filmmaker

01:24:19.220 before you

01:24:20.760 jump on

01:24:21.140 any

01:24:21.340 bagwagon

01:24:21.960 your whole

01:24:22.740 job is

01:24:23.560 to do

01:24:23.860 your due

01:24:24.160 diligence

01:24:24.500 so if

01:24:25.480 you can't

01:24:25.860 even watch

01:24:26.380 a two

01:24:26.760 hour film

01:24:27.340 before chiming

01:24:28.100 in

01:24:28.260 if that's

01:24:28.680 too much

01:24:29.120 energy

01:24:29.480 for you

01:24:29.900 to do

01:24:30.400 then you

01:24:31.080 are not

01:24:31.700 a journalist

01:24:32.380 you are

01:24:33.460 an activist

01:24:33.960 that writes

01:24:34.700 you're not

01:24:36.320 a documentarian

01:24:37.240 you're an

01:24:38.340 activist

01:24:38.680 with a

01:24:39.020 camera

01:24:39.380 and so

01:24:40.340 for me

01:24:40.740 I do

01:24:41.140 draw the

01:24:41.480 line

01:24:41.700 between

01:24:42.160 being a

01:24:43.120 journalist

01:24:43.520 being a

01:24:44.100 documentarian

01:24:44.700 and being

01:24:45.060 an activist

01:24:45.500 and I

01:24:46.540 think that

01:24:46.980 those lines

01:24:47.480 have been

01:24:47.740 gotten

01:24:47.960 blurred

01:24:48.280 lately

01:24:48.660 and

01:24:49.440 unfortunately

01:24:50.080 it's had

01:24:50.720 a very

01:24:51.500 negative

01:24:53.160 knock-on

01:24:53.600 effect

01:24:53.960 both in

01:24:54.840 journalism

01:24:55.260 and in

01:24:55.860 filmmaking

01:24:56.220 and so

01:24:57.440 for me

01:24:58.880 what I

01:24:59.800 hope

01:25:00.240 is if I'm

01:25:01.400 able to

01:25:01.800 turn this

01:25:02.160 around

01:25:02.480 if I'm

01:25:03.680 able to

01:25:04.060 get the

01:25:04.380 film out

01:25:04.720 there in

01:25:04.900 a big

01:25:05.260 way

01:25:05.580 in a

01:25:06.200 successful

01:25:06.660 way

01:25:07.080 then

01:25:09.020 hopefully

01:25:09.640 that will

01:25:10.600 send a

01:25:10.980 message to

01:25:11.540 the industry

01:25:12.100 say hey

01:25:13.240 before we

01:25:13.740 bend the

01:25:14.100 knee next

01:25:14.520 time

01:25:14.900 maybe we

01:25:16.040 don't want

01:25:16.300 to have

01:25:16.500 egg on

01:25:16.800 our face

01:25:17.260 and maybe

01:25:17.700 if we

01:25:17.960 program a

01:25:18.520 film

01:25:18.740 we stick

01:25:19.560 by it

01:25:20.040 maybe we

01:25:20.760 decide to

01:25:21.240 be an

01:25:21.540 EP on

01:25:22.080 a film

01:25:22.480 we champion

01:25:23.420 it

01:25:23.800 because at

01:25:24.940 the end

01:25:25.220 of the day

01:25:25.700 I think

01:25:26.560 that what's

01:25:27.000 really scary

01:25:27.560 to me

01:25:28.120 is that if

01:25:29.820 you go back

01:25:30.520 30 years

01:25:32.080 you have

01:25:33.060 Salman Rushdie

01:25:33.780 his book

01:25:34.780 I think the

01:25:37.540 translators for

01:25:38.460 his book

01:25:38.820 were murdered

01:25:39.320 but bookstores

01:25:41.020 still chose

01:25:41.820 to put it

01:25:42.460 on the

01:25:42.700 bookshelf

01:25:43.120 at a

01:25:43.500 principle

01:25:43.820 and sell

01:25:44.520 it

01:25:44.760 fast forward

01:25:46.260 30 years

01:25:47.060 you have a

01:25:48.300 huge institution

01:25:49.060 like Sundance

01:25:49.820 or a

01:25:51.160 multi-millionaire

01:25:53.020 many times

01:25:53.560 over like

01:25:54.080 Abigail Disney

01:25:54.720 and a few

01:25:56.520 tweets

01:25:57.000 and well

01:25:58.340 written letters

01:25:59.360 and a

01:26:00.060 campaign

01:26:00.600 causes them

01:26:02.700 to capitulate

01:26:03.300 and these

01:26:04.860 are supposed

01:26:05.200 to be the

01:26:05.560 institutions

01:26:06.080 and the

01:26:06.600 industry leaders

01:26:07.260 that are

01:26:07.500 supposed to

01:26:07.820 safeguard against

01:26:08.520 that

01:26:08.840 and if those

01:26:09.980 are no longer

01:26:10.520 working

01:26:10.980 because at the

01:26:11.720 end of the day

01:26:12.040 you're always

01:26:12.440 going to have

01:26:12.680 people attack

01:26:13.200 your work

01:26:13.580 that's not

01:26:14.340 new

01:26:14.540 but what is

01:26:15.700 new is these

01:26:16.340 institutions

01:26:16.840 and the

01:26:17.860 leaderships

01:26:18.460 in these

01:26:18.700 industries

01:26:19.160 aren't

01:26:20.060 leading

01:26:20.540 and what I

01:26:21.800 mean by that

01:26:22.300 is in the

01:26:23.180 fire service

01:26:23.880 when you're

01:26:24.680 the captain

01:26:25.120 you have more

01:26:26.580 responsibility

01:26:27.120 than a firefighter

01:26:28.120 you take the

01:26:28.760 hit

01:26:28.960 you protect

01:26:29.860 your crew

01:26:30.260 I was a

01:26:31.600 filmmaker that

01:26:32.160 was accepted

01:26:32.980 into Sundance

01:26:33.800 and instead of

01:26:34.960 Sundance

01:26:35.380 protecting the

01:26:36.160 filmmaker that

01:26:36.680 they programmed

01:26:37.340 they threw

01:26:38.280 that filmmaker

01:26:38.800 under the bus

01:26:39.500 and that film

01:26:40.980 and everyone

01:26:41.520 involved in it

01:26:42.280 and to me

01:26:43.060 that's not

01:26:43.480 leadership

01:26:43.860 and if

01:26:44.920 you're not

01:26:45.340 leading in

01:26:45.740 the industry

01:26:46.280 then you're

01:26:47.460 you're basically

01:26:48.680 devaluing the

01:26:50.360 value that you

01:26:50.940 say you add

01:26:51.660 and at the end

01:26:52.960 of the day

01:26:53.480 someone once

01:26:54.980 told me the

01:26:55.360 saying like

01:26:55.880 so the only

01:26:57.240 thing more

01:26:58.080 dangerous

01:26:58.700 than a person

01:27:00.540 with

01:27:01.800 limitless resources

01:27:03.740 and more money

01:27:04.820 than God

01:27:05.280 is someone who

01:27:06.560 has nothing

01:27:07.120 else to lose

01:27:08.320 at this point

01:27:09.800 they got nothing

01:27:11.000 to lose

01:27:11.400 it's fantastic

01:27:13.620 thank you so

01:27:14.920 much for coming

01:27:15.520 on the show

01:27:16.080 Meg it's been

01:27:16.780 an absolute

01:27:17.400 pleasure

01:27:17.720 if people want

01:27:18.240 to find you

01:27:18.680 online if they

01:27:19.260 want to find

01:27:19.660 out more about

01:27:20.300 you where is

01:27:21.380 the best place

01:27:21.940 to do that

01:27:22.400 yeah so we

01:27:23.180 have a go

01:27:23.500 fund me page

01:27:24.220 we put updates

01:27:25.040 all the time

01:27:25.700 so if you go

01:27:26.300 to go fund me

01:27:26.880 just search

01:27:27.460 jihad rehab

01:27:28.100 or makes

01:27:30.300 maker go fund

01:27:31.000 me we have

01:27:32.400 a website

01:27:32.820 jihad rehab

01:27:33.500 dot com

01:27:34.180 where we put

01:27:34.600 a bunch of

01:27:34.920 screenings and

01:27:35.640 all those dates

01:27:36.180 as well and

01:27:37.180 they can follow

01:27:37.640 me on twitter

01:27:38.240 at me i g h o 0.82

01:27:40.200 n or makes

01:27:41.940 maker on twitter

01:27:42.560 i think that i

01:27:43.400 think you can

01:27:43.840 search for that

01:27:44.280 i'm kind of like

01:27:44.880 not really a

01:27:45.520 twitter expert

01:27:46.040 i fucked it up 0.91

01:27:46.700 a couple times

01:27:47.360 so i'm still

01:27:47.860 trying to learn

01:27:48.360 i'm not a

01:27:48.900 social media

01:27:49.400 expert at all

01:27:50.480 yeah and then

01:27:51.500 i think you

01:27:52.620 know if people

01:27:53.200 have any leads

01:27:54.240 in terms of like

01:27:54.980 if there's a

01:27:55.580 theater near you

01:27:56.600 or a film

01:27:57.780 festival that you

01:27:58.380 think would be

01:27:58.800 brave enough or

01:27:59.600 if you are in

01:28:00.440 the industry or

01:28:01.580 you are a

01:28:01.980 BAFTA member

01:28:02.600 oh that's one

01:28:03.640 thing i should

01:28:04.020 say for people

01:28:05.500 in the in the

01:28:06.040 uk who are

01:28:06.540 BAFTA members

01:28:07.160 you can watch

01:28:08.560 it so it's

01:28:09.180 online right

01:28:10.300 now but only

01:28:11.060 for BAFTA

01:28:12.160 members and

01:28:12.700 only for

01:28:13.200 academy voters

01:28:13.920 they have this

01:28:14.500 very like huge

01:28:16.480 security protected

01:28:17.340 streaming things

01:28:18.140 that are available

01:28:18.580 to those members

01:28:19.100 and they can

01:28:20.260 watch the film

01:28:20.900 and then make

01:28:21.360 up their own

01:28:22.100 mind and that

01:28:22.740 would be really

01:28:23.300 helpful for

01:28:24.380 more people

01:28:24.860 as many people

01:28:25.560 to see this

01:28:25.940 film as possible

01:28:26.580 well we wish

01:28:27.140 you all the

01:28:27.460 best and like

01:28:28.000 i said if

01:28:28.440 there's anything

01:28:28.880 we can do

01:28:29.300 for you in

01:28:29.580 the future

01:28:29.880 we'd be very

01:28:30.780 happy to do

01:28:31.280 that with

01:28:32.520 that we've got

01:28:33.240 one final question

01:28:34.140 for you which

01:28:34.880 is the same as

01:28:35.420 always what's

01:28:36.300 the one thing

01:28:36.700 we're not

01:28:37.080 talking about as

01:28:37.960 a society that

01:28:38.680 we really should

01:28:39.140 be

01:28:39.380 i think one

01:28:42.900 thing that i've

01:28:43.620 been kind of

01:28:44.280 talking about

01:28:45.360 lately and

01:28:47.200 really appreciating

01:28:48.140 is the power

01:28:48.900 of i don't

01:28:49.460 know

01:28:49.680 what i mean by

01:28:51.500 that is i've

01:28:52.640 had a lot of

01:28:53.020 discussions with

01:28:53.700 people lately

01:28:54.320 about a plethora

01:28:55.460 of things and

01:28:56.520 there seems to

01:28:57.120 be a certitude

01:28:58.060 about things that

01:28:59.520 i've i know that

01:29:00.960 they don't know a

01:29:01.480 lot about

01:29:01.880 and what i mean

01:29:02.780 by that is the

01:29:03.460 other day i was

01:29:04.360 with some

01:29:04.660 friends and i

01:29:05.800 gave them a

01:29:06.160 hypothetical scenario

01:29:07.040 i said what

01:29:09.520 would you say

01:29:11.000 if i told you

01:29:12.000 someone at a

01:29:12.760 major newspaper

01:29:13.680 tweeted a

01:29:15.860 sexist joke

01:29:16.540 what should

01:29:17.120 happen to that

01:29:17.600 person that's a

01:29:19.160 very limited amount

01:29:19.880 of information and

01:29:21.540 so i went around

01:29:21.940 the table and i

01:29:22.520 asked my friends

01:29:23.200 none of my

01:29:24.240 friends asked for

01:29:25.000 more information

01:29:25.580 they all had

01:29:27.140 their you know

01:29:28.200 judge during

01:29:28.860 sentence one was

01:29:30.220 he should be

01:29:30.660 fired another

01:29:31.280 one was he

01:29:31.680 should be

01:29:31.920 suspended without

01:29:32.440 pay another

01:29:33.260 one he should

01:29:33.760 be demoted i

01:29:35.120 said okay what

01:29:35.860 about if i told

01:29:37.960 you that this

01:29:39.220 journalist was in

01:29:41.460 the business for

01:29:42.000 30 years multiple

01:29:43.260 pulitzer prizes

01:29:44.100 multiple awards

01:29:46.860 and like woodward

01:29:48.440 and bernstein level

01:29:49.240 and what if i told

01:29:51.800 you that the whole

01:29:53.020 twitter thing that

01:29:53.640 he was doing was

01:29:54.460 literally just

01:29:55.080 mandated a month

01:29:55.840 ago where his

01:29:56.420 paper said you

01:29:57.540 must tweet at

01:29:58.160 least twice a week

01:29:58.960 something in order

01:30:00.000 in order to like

01:30:00.800 meet your minimum

01:30:01.660 requirement and

01:30:03.140 what if i also

01:30:03.640 told you told you

01:30:04.280 that that tweet

01:30:04.780 was sent at two

01:30:05.460 in the morning on

01:30:06.140 a friday night for

01:30:08.120 someone who was you

01:30:09.220 know in his late

01:30:09.940 60s probably out

01:30:12.100 the bar drinking

01:30:12.880 what if i told you

01:30:13.880 he thought he was

01:30:14.380 sending a private

01:30:15.000 message to a friend

01:30:15.780 on twitter and not

01:30:16.480 posting it publicly

01:30:17.240 does that change how

01:30:19.540 you would punish this

01:30:21.040 person and of course

01:30:22.540 they all went around

01:30:23.260 and changed their

01:30:24.140 answer and then

01:30:25.800 what i realized is

01:30:27.800 when you give people

01:30:29.920 facts without context

01:30:32.460 it's not truth it's

01:30:34.500 propaganda and so

01:30:36.160 what i really want

01:30:37.480 people to really kind

01:30:38.740 of drill down on is

01:30:40.460 context because context

01:30:42.240 is everything and a

01:30:44.120 lot of times we see

01:30:45.020 videos online that are

01:30:46.140 10 20 seconds long and

01:30:48.400 we come in and we

01:30:49.200 judge right away but

01:30:50.540 what we're missing is

01:30:51.240 the context because

01:30:52.740 context will tell you

01:30:54.220 more what you need to

01:30:55.440 know and without that i

01:30:57.620 would employ people to

01:30:58.800 just take a beat

01:30:59.760 because having been

01:31:01.340 gotten a lot of hate

01:31:04.600 because there was no

01:31:06.300 context i think that

01:31:08.160 it's imperative that

01:31:09.140 people approach

01:31:10.180 situations with

01:31:11.580 inquiry rather than

01:31:12.940 inquisition and with

01:31:14.580 curiosity rather than

01:31:15.860 judgment and i would

01:31:18.060 also implore people to

01:31:19.320 be not just kind to one

01:31:22.000 another but give people

01:31:22.860 the benefit of the doubt

01:31:23.640 we're all trying to do

01:31:24.800 the best that we can and

01:31:26.760 none of us are inherently

01:31:28.020 evil people we all think

01:31:29.520 we're doing the right

01:31:30.080 thing so i think the one

01:31:32.160 thing that i would say

01:31:33.060 is i think people need

01:31:34.660 to seek out context a lot

01:31:36.960 more than we are i like

01:31:38.940 you meg i think it fit

01:31:39.900 very well in like the

01:31:41.160 late 1990s early

01:31:42.560 90s that's your era

01:31:44.100 because that world i'm

01:31:45.640 afraid i wish it were

01:31:46.880 here but it ain't but

01:31:48.640 you're right of course

01:31:49.400 you're right and there's

01:31:50.840 a great that's a great

01:31:52.500 note to finish on we'll

01:31:53.420 ask you a couple of

01:31:54.080 questions for our

01:31:54.820 locals uh meg smaker

01:31:57.020 that's us thank you

01:31:59.120 very much brilliant

01:32:00.140 absolute pleasure

01:32:00.620 so i went to go

01:32:03.060 interview the head of

01:32:03.640 the fbi thinking he

01:32:04.800 was going to say this

01:32:05.380 is some kind of dog a

01:32:06.100 pony show this is like

01:32:07.500 just a pr stunt but he

01:32:10.220 said and i was really

01:32:10.960 surprised he said that 0.99

01:32:11.760 he said we fucking 0.99

01:32:12.560 love this program and 0.98

01:32:13.740 we wish we can do

01:32:14.400 something like this in

01:32:15.000 the states and i was

01:32:16.480 like well why can't we

01:32:17.440 two reasons to say

01:32:18.740 one

01:32:19.440 broadway's smash hit

01:32:27.840 the neil diamond

01:32:28.620 musical a beautiful

01:32:30.040 noise is coming to

01:32:31.600 toronto the true story

01:32:33.040 of a kid from brooklyn

01:32:34.160 destined for something

01:32:35.220 more featuring all the

01:32:36.500 songs you love including

01:32:37.900 america forever in blue

01:32:39.500 jeans and sweet caroline

01:32:41.180 like jersey boys and

01:32:42.760 beautiful the next

01:32:43.800 musical mega hit is

01:32:45.080 here the neil diamond

01:32:46.380 musical a beautiful

01:32:47.760 noise now through

01:32:48.820 june 7th 2026 at the

01:32:51.060 princess of wells

01:32:51.860 theater get tickets at

01:32:53.240 mirvish.com

TRIGGERnometry - January 05, 2023

My 3 Years Inside Jihadi Rehab - Meg Smaker

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript