TRIGGERnometry - My Trans Twitter Spat With J.K Rowling - Caolan Robertson

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00:00:28.080 Are we human?

00:00:30.680 During the interview India revealed that they'd called the police on JK Rowling.

00:00:35.720 And that JK Rowling could be arrested.

00:00:37.940 And then JK Rowling responded to it. 0.96

00:00:39.500 And I ended up just calling JK Rowling a c**t.

00:00:42.040 And obviously I apologised the next day. 0.86

00:00:43.580 And then she responded.

00:00:44.840 And I think she's been driven to breaking point actually.

00:00:48.240 Over time, the longer you spend on Twitter.

00:00:50.520 Naturally I think you just get drawn down more of kind of extreme rabbit holes. 0.97

00:00:54.480 It is seen on the left on Twitter as okay to call JK Rowling a c**t.

00:00:59.320 Because we don't see people as human beings on the other side of our politics anymore.

00:01:04.220 So Caelan, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:06.940 You are in the process of leaving Byline Times following a conversation that you hosted with India Willoughby.

00:01:13.500 Who's by the way a former guest of our show.

00:01:15.740 Although it was a very different India Willoughby that came on our show I think.

00:01:18.820 It's fair to say.

00:01:19.500 And then there was a big spat with JK Rowling involved.

00:01:23.080 And some nasty things being said.

00:01:25.120 And apologies and whatever.

00:01:26.140 So why don't you tell us what happened.

00:01:28.780 So I've run Byline TV for four years.

00:01:31.320 It's a little bit different to the paper.

00:01:32.980 Editorially it was something I was deciding.

00:01:35.840 Who we interview and who we have on the shows.

00:01:38.160 And I saw on Twitter that JK Rowling had misgendered India.

00:01:43.620 If that's what you want to call it.

00:01:44.620 Called him a man.

00:01:46.140 And it was in the news.

00:01:48.200 And it was really shocking.

00:01:49.820 Apparently to a huge number of people.

00:01:51.600 So I DM'd India and said.

00:01:53.800 Hey do you want to come on Byline TV and talk about this?

00:01:58.140 And they accepted.

00:02:00.360 Got a train down the next day.

00:02:01.540 Because I just thought this was a really newsworthy thing.

00:02:03.800 This is what I've been doing for the last four years.

00:02:05.740 Is covering things that are current.

00:02:07.200 Interesting.

00:02:08.460 Generally culturally interesting.

00:02:09.600 There was not really an agenda or anything behind it.

00:02:12.740 And during the interview India revealed that they'd called the police on JK Rowling.

00:02:18.920 And that JK Rowling could be arrested.

00:02:21.340 Which is a huge.

00:02:23.460 Just basically a huge story.

00:02:25.180 Right?

00:02:25.440 It was shocking to hear.

00:02:28.540 So I rushed out and put that out.

00:02:31.320 JK Rowling has definitely committed a crime.

00:02:35.280 I'm legally a woman.

00:02:36.920 She knows I'm a woman.

00:02:39.020 And she calls me a man.

00:02:41.760 Well I've been to the police.

00:02:43.640 And I've reported it as an issue.

00:02:45.460 I contacted Northumbria Constabulary yesterday.

00:02:50.900 So you reported JK Rowling to the police?

00:02:53.180 I have reported JK Rowling to the police.

00:02:57.320 For what she said.

00:02:58.740 Calling a trans person a man. 0.98

00:03:03.420 Deliberately knowing that that person is a woman. 0.99

00:03:06.500 And I am a woman regardless of what JK Rowling says.

00:03:09.300 I've been through everything that's required of me.

00:03:11.800 My birth certificate says female.

00:03:14.040 My passport.

00:03:14.860 All of my documents.

00:03:16.100 It is a hate crime.

00:03:17.760 And it should be treated just as somebody calling a black person the N word.

00:03:23.520 Or an Asian person the P word.

00:03:26.980 Something I expected to get coverage in the press.

00:03:30.620 Maybe a million views.

00:03:31.800 But it exploded way beyond anything I'd ever posted in my political life.

00:03:37.920 On the left or the right.

00:03:39.600 With something like 21 million views in a day.

00:03:43.160 And then JK Rowling responded to it.

00:03:45.000 And was like oh this is nonsense.

00:03:47.820 This is poor journalism. 1.00

00:03:48.860 This is garbage. 1.00

00:03:49.400 And then started personally attacking me for the whole day with 11 personal tweets. 1.00

00:03:54.000 Googling my past.

00:03:55.100 Saying I was a grifter.

00:03:57.020 Saying that I.

00:03:57.640 And then literally was tweeting my response to the interview.

00:04:02.680 Saying that I was calling India a him. 1.00

00:04:05.160 Which I literally wasn't.

00:04:06.240 If you watch the video it says them.

00:04:07.440 I used journalistic integrity.

00:04:09.600 I questioned them about the rise of detransitioners. 0.82

00:04:12.320 I questioned them about some of the darker side of the trans community. 1.00

00:04:16.560 Which I think was just trolling. 0.98

00:04:18.080 And just trying to basically take the piss.

00:04:20.020 And just try to turn everyone against me. 1.00

00:04:22.020 And just cause a massive shit show. 0.99

00:04:26.840 Which was really overwhelming. 0.99

00:04:29.220 Like I've never been at the center of a culture debate like that before.

00:04:32.740 I've never had it where someone as big as JK Rowling is like personally attacking me.

00:04:36.420 For even something I didn't do.

00:04:39.520 And I think the interview was justified.

00:04:41.120 Like as a journalist.

00:04:42.900 Interviewing someone about something that they've done.

00:04:46.360 Reporting a massive celebrity to the police.

00:04:48.020 Is fairly normal.

00:04:49.340 It's a fairly standard process.

00:04:50.980 So I just.

00:04:51.980 I found that.

00:04:53.800 Just a really extreme unhealthy situation.

00:04:57.140 I've never spoken or gotten involved in the trans debate before.

00:05:00.200 I've always talked about Brexit.

00:05:01.600 On the right it was immigration.

00:05:03.040 It was culture.

00:05:03.660 But I've never really put my foot in that. 0.99

00:05:05.620 And didn't realize how fucked up it was. 0.99

00:05:08.280 Until that day. 0.99

00:05:09.740 And then India started getting really angry. 0.98

00:05:12.240 Because.

00:05:12.940 And tweeting about me.

00:05:13.720 Because I.

00:05:14.500 I guess.

00:05:16.280 Misgendered them. 0.98

00:05:17.500 Which I didn't.

00:05:18.360 And then the trans right activists were coming after me.

00:05:20.680 The JK Rowling fans were coming after me. 1.00

00:05:22.180 And it was just like an absolute shit show. 0.99

00:05:23.960 And I kind of. 0.99

00:05:24.320 I guess this is why no one else.

00:05:26.380 Really.

00:05:27.080 In the journalism sphere.

00:05:28.420 Gets involved.

00:05:29.440 And has a lot of these conversations.

00:05:30.680 Because of how toxic it's all become.

00:05:33.800 And it kind of amalgamated with.

00:05:36.840 So much vitriol.

00:05:38.620 I just started losing the plot.

00:05:40.200 Like I couldn't really cope with it.

00:05:41.780 I mean I was getting messages from family.

00:05:43.760 From school friends.

00:05:44.420 Who were being DM'd from like.

00:05:46.420 Instagram.

00:05:47.080 And my Facebook pages.

00:05:49.380 From JK Rowling fans.

00:05:51.240 And trans right activists.

00:05:52.280 Saying just like absolute abuse. 1.00

00:05:55.100 And I ended up just calling JK Rowling a cunt. 1.00

00:05:57.680 Because she was. 0.99

00:05:58.340 I felt like she was trolling me.

00:06:00.020 Completely.

00:06:00.620 Constantly.

00:06:01.200 To like breaking point.

00:06:03.840 Which is.

00:06:05.420 Obviously she's not.

00:06:07.460 But I think she knew what she was doing.

00:06:11.320 In trying to.

00:06:12.940 Like.

00:06:14.600 Derail the interview.

00:06:15.660 Derail the whole thing.

00:06:16.840 Undermine.

00:06:17.560 Me.

00:06:17.980 Byline.

00:06:18.400 Everyone.

00:06:19.420 And I think it was just.

00:06:20.360 I think it just broke in the end.

00:06:22.280 Why do you think she was doing that? 0.99

00:06:24.520 Because it's quite a strong.

00:06:25.940 Allegation to make against JK Rowling.

00:06:27.680 My experience of her.

00:06:30.640 Statements in public.

00:06:31.800 Has been that she's quite moderate actually.

00:06:33.440 Given someone.

00:06:35.320 Who takes.

00:06:36.500 Way more abuse than even you experienced.

00:06:38.540 In that one incident.

00:06:39.680 I don't blame her.

00:06:41.040 I think what she's been through.

00:06:43.280 Is extreme.

00:06:44.760 And the harassment.

00:06:45.500 And her.

00:06:45.860 Her entire legacy.

00:06:47.760 Attempted to be undermined by.

00:06:49.780 Trans right activists.

00:06:50.360 And LGBT people. 0.97

00:06:52.280 Is horrific. 0.96

00:06:53.860 And undeserved.

00:06:54.920 And it wasn't really until a few days after.

00:06:57.740 And obviously I apologized the next day.

00:06:59.300 And then she responded three.

00:07:00.960 Like really really gracious responses.

00:07:02.860 Being like.

00:07:04.100 This was.

00:07:05.420 Completely.

00:07:06.260 Like.

00:07:06.560 Out of nowhere for Cailin to apologize.

00:07:08.060 I didn't ask for this.

00:07:08.860 I really appreciate it.

00:07:10.480 We all say things we regret.

00:07:12.060 And I realized that she's.

00:07:14.440 Like.

00:07:15.220 I mean that was lovely.

00:07:16.680 And I think she's been driven to breaking point.

00:07:19.020 Actually.

00:07:19.740 By all of this stuff from the last few years.

00:07:21.560 And I think when she sees an interview.

00:07:23.420 With someone who's basically trying to get them arrested.

00:07:26.200 She's going to go.

00:07:27.020 I think she just flipped. 0.61

00:07:28.120 And she was just furious.

00:07:29.160 And she was just trying to throw it all back.

00:07:30.820 I mean.

00:07:30.980 The whole trans debate. 0.68

00:07:33.840 Is so unbelievably vitriolic and toxic.

00:07:37.120 And I would even say.

00:07:38.780 More so from the TRA side.

00:07:41.800 That.

00:07:42.800 I don't.

00:07:43.700 I guess I don't blame JK Rowling for.

00:07:45.580 For feeling the way she felt.

00:07:46.720 And for going after me.

00:07:49.400 And.

00:07:51.040 You know.

00:07:51.340 I've been against.

00:07:52.720 Like.

00:07:53.160 The horrid culture war.

00:07:56.100 Vitriolic.

00:07:56.860 You know.

00:07:57.180 Twitter behavior.

00:07:57.980 For the last few years.

00:07:59.000 I can't stand all of that.

00:08:00.100 I tried to stay out of it.

00:08:01.040 And even.

00:08:01.480 I became like that.

00:08:02.700 I became one of those horrible people.

00:08:04.100 That night.

00:08:04.540 When I tweeted that too.

00:08:05.880 Just from being in it for a day.

00:08:07.420 So I can't imagine what she's been going through.

00:08:10.100 But yeah.

00:08:12.100 I'm guessing.

00:08:12.700 What I'm curious about.

00:08:13.960 Is why you think.

00:08:15.280 Her response.

00:08:16.240 Was an attempt to undermine the interview.

00:08:18.200 And attack you personally.

00:08:19.280 Because.

00:08:19.820 If somebody had done a piece about me.

00:08:23.180 That.

00:08:24.100 Had someone come in. 0.96

00:08:25.420 Who's clearly mentally unstable. 0.59

00:08:27.380 Who'd claimed to have reported me.

00:08:28.940 For the police.

00:08:29.360 To the police.

00:08:29.880 For what is clearly not a crime.

00:08:32.560 I'd make fun of that.

00:08:34.480 Whole thing too.

00:08:36.260 So I guess.

00:08:37.020 I'm.

00:08:37.340 I'm.

00:08:37.860 I'm curious.

00:08:38.520 That you think this was.

00:08:39.780 Kind of.

00:08:40.260 An attempt to attack you.

00:08:41.420 And undermine you.

00:08:42.960 Why.

00:08:43.460 Why you think that.

00:08:44.400 Well.

00:08:44.600 I think.

00:08:44.920 I was just.

00:08:45.520 An interviewer.

00:08:46.160 Asking.

00:08:46.980 What has happened.

00:08:47.760 In the last 24 hours.

00:08:48.860 India said.

00:08:49.700 She had reported.

00:08:50.440 JK Rowling to the police.

00:08:51.300 So I didn't have a stake in it.

00:08:53.000 I didn't have an opinion in it.

00:08:53.960 I didn't say.

00:08:54.460 Oh that's great.

00:08:55.320 Like.

00:08:55.760 Let's.

00:08:56.120 Let's go and watch the arrest.

00:08:57.520 There wasn't.

00:08:57.940 There wasn't a piece in it that I had.

00:09:00.280 And I've never gone against people like JK Rowling in the past.

00:09:03.220 So I think it was.

00:09:04.080 I think it was an attempt to basically just shut that whole thing down.

00:09:08.600 She was probably annoyed at me for even speaking to India.

00:09:11.440 And even giving that person any airtime.

00:09:13.580 And I think.

00:09:15.920 I think it was pretty unfair.

00:09:18.340 But I understand why she did it.

00:09:19.420 And I understand the point that she's at.

00:09:20.920 Of just being absolutely done with all of this.

00:09:24.320 So it's difficult.

00:09:26.620 Caelan.

00:09:27.140 One thing that.

00:09:28.420 I find.

00:09:30.340 Quite.

00:09:31.860 Bizarre.

00:09:32.360 Is that you didn't realize how toxic this was.

00:09:35.040 As someone who's very much lived in the online space.

00:09:37.860 You must have been aware.

00:09:40.940 You know.

00:09:41.340 That you were stepping into.

00:09:43.200 You know.

00:09:43.580 The most toxic debate.

00:09:45.500 On the internet.

00:09:46.340 At the moment.

00:09:47.180 Well.

00:09:47.720 In my entire track record.

00:09:49.280 I've never set foot in that debate.

00:09:50.980 I've never made a comment about it.

00:09:52.160 And I thought.

00:09:52.540 As an interviewer.

00:09:53.700 At the other side of the table.

00:09:54.840 Who's literally just asking questions.

00:09:56.720 That I would have a separation to that.

00:09:58.200 I'm not.

00:09:59.060 Giving commentary.

00:10:00.240 Or opinion.

00:10:01.000 So it seemed relatively safe.

00:10:02.560 It might be a little bit spicy.

00:10:03.600 It might be.

00:10:04.000 Like a news report.

00:10:04.700 But I didn't expect it to be that intense.

00:10:07.980 And to have someone with that many followers.

00:10:09.600 And you know.

00:10:10.220 Elon Musk was liking tweets about me.

00:10:11.800 That she was.

00:10:12.280 She was putting out.

00:10:13.020 I mean.

00:10:13.160 It was.

00:10:13.440 It was all over the place.

00:10:14.700 And I didn't expect that.

00:10:15.740 And I didn't expect it to be personal.

00:10:17.520 So.

00:10:18.560 And I don't think.

00:10:19.420 I don't think most people would.

00:10:20.360 If they were just doing an interview with someone.

00:10:21.940 And not passing opinion.

00:10:23.620 Fair enough.

00:10:24.340 So.

00:10:25.200 You tweeted what you tweeted.

00:10:26.840 You then apologized.

00:10:28.000 She very graciously accepted.

00:10:30.520 Then what happened?

00:10:33.160 Well.

00:10:33.640 I'm basically just.

00:10:35.040 Done with.

00:10:36.200 I've worked for.

00:10:37.180 Left wing and right wing media.

00:10:38.120 For like nearly a decade now.

00:10:40.360 And.

00:10:40.780 It has been.

00:10:42.080 It's been.

00:10:43.380 There's been amazing points.

00:10:44.560 There's been points that have been.

00:10:46.200 I've made great work.

00:10:47.520 And I'm really really proud of it.

00:10:48.480 And added stuff to the world.

00:10:49.800 That I think are good films.

00:10:50.760 And good pieces of content.

00:10:51.680 But I think it's.

00:10:52.580 It takes its toll.

00:10:54.760 Massively on someone.

00:10:55.880 Whose job it is basically.

00:10:57.320 To constantly be.

00:10:58.800 Be responding to what's going on in the news.

00:11:00.760 And constantly being on Twitter.

00:11:01.640 And constantly.

00:11:02.320 You know.

00:11:02.480 Being part of.

00:11:03.260 Of debate.

00:11:04.420 And it's gotten.

00:11:05.440 Extremely toxic recently.

00:11:06.520 So I'm just going to.

00:11:07.380 Take a break for six months.

00:11:08.480 I'm not going to do any work for six months.

00:11:09.800 And I'm going to.

00:11:10.600 Probably start my own.

00:11:12.260 Network.

00:11:12.740 Something down the middle.

00:11:13.680 Something that isn't left or right.

00:11:14.860 Or up or down.

00:11:16.040 Or pro or anti-trans.

00:11:16.940 Something.

00:11:17.380 Right down the middle.

00:11:18.040 That people can make up their own minds about.

00:11:19.740 And just going back to making good films.

00:11:21.480 Because.

00:11:22.000 It's really easy.

00:11:22.860 When you're on the internet.

00:11:23.640 If you.

00:11:23.920 Even if you're a journalist.

00:11:24.760 This is why so many people get involved in it.

00:11:26.100 To go down rabbit holes.

00:11:29.080 And to start chasing clicks.

00:11:30.480 And start chasing likes.

00:11:31.540 And start following where the drama is.

00:11:33.260 And where the attention is.

00:11:33.940 Before you know it.

00:11:34.600 You become.

00:11:35.340 The thing that you.

00:11:37.020 Was the opposite of what you set out to be.

00:11:38.980 And that keeps happening.

00:11:40.740 And I think the algorithms keep pulling you that way.

00:11:42.700 And I just want to go offline for about six months.

00:11:45.080 I think that's what most people need to do.

00:11:47.080 Right now as well.

00:11:48.120 Just unplug.

00:11:49.080 Just disappear.

00:11:49.660 Keep watching.

00:11:50.380 Like and subscribe.

00:11:51.340 Yeah.

00:11:51.840 Yeah.

00:11:52.240 Well I think most people that are really hyper engaged in Twitter that I know.

00:11:55.780 On the left and right still.

00:11:57.240 Are burnt out.

00:11:58.780 Exhausted.

00:11:59.640 Becoming more angry.

00:12:01.140 And becoming just.

00:12:01.880 Just vitriolic.

00:12:03.040 And feeling the same way that I've been feeling about everything.

00:12:05.600 And I think everyone needs to.

00:12:07.320 Spend more time off.

00:12:08.620 Off Twitter.

00:12:10.460 At least for breaks.

00:12:11.520 Because it's become.

00:12:12.280 It's become.

00:12:13.000 One of the most.

00:12:14.220 Like toxic places I've ever seen.

00:12:16.380 Much more than when I was on the right.

00:12:18.120 Really?

00:12:18.700 I think so.

00:12:20.660 As in 2016 to 2016.

00:12:22.240 2018.

00:12:23.520 So you think.

00:12:24.580 I think now it's more.

00:12:25.460 Extreme.

00:12:26.340 I think.

00:12:26.580 I think.

00:12:26.880 You know.

00:12:27.100 Elon Musk taking over was a good thing.

00:12:29.020 Because it means that everyone now has the same platform.

00:12:31.200 Everyone now has the same voice.

00:12:32.780 But.

00:12:33.600 The media industry has.

00:12:35.660 Collapsed even more.

00:12:36.640 Journalism has become more. 1.00

00:12:38.340 Crap. 0.98

00:12:39.160 The BBC are no longer in funding actual investigations anymore. 0.99

00:12:42.200 They're not doing real journalism anymore.

00:12:43.880 And they're basically leaving.

00:12:45.780 The entirety of society.

00:12:47.140 To debate.

00:12:47.800 And have all these conversations between each other.

00:12:49.820 So I'm mainly blaming the media for this.

00:12:51.360 It's got nothing really to do with.

00:12:52.740 With the.

00:12:53.140 With the algorithms.

00:12:54.900 And.

00:12:55.820 It's.

00:12:56.420 It's.

00:12:56.720 I think it's just caused everyone to go insane.

00:12:58.620 And it's.

00:12:59.060 It's not.

00:12:59.820 It's not a healthy environment.

00:13:01.040 I mean.

00:13:01.120 It was a good thing.

00:13:02.360 30 or 40 years ago.

00:13:03.160 When we could sit down.

00:13:04.020 And get our news.

00:13:04.800 From news reporters.

00:13:05.680 Who.

00:13:06.600 You know.

00:13:06.820 Gathered information all day.

00:13:08.000 Did it on the.

00:13:08.580 Did it on the ground.

00:13:09.440 Actual old fashioned.

00:13:10.340 Proper reporting.

00:13:11.040 Like panorama used to be.

00:13:12.640 And then deliver that news.

00:13:13.840 You'd watch it.

00:13:14.400 You'd get your information.

00:13:15.460 Wasn't always perfect.

00:13:16.360 And then you'd go and live the rest of your.

00:13:18.180 Life.

00:13:18.540 With your family.

00:13:19.120 And put food on your table.

00:13:20.380 Now it's like.

00:13:21.620 You have to do.

00:13:22.220 All of your research yourself.

00:13:23.520 You have to.

00:13:24.020 Argue with a thousand people on Twitter.

00:13:25.360 Before you get to a conclusion.

00:13:26.520 And you have to almost throw yourself.

00:13:27.700 Into a culture war.

00:13:28.300 Just to get.

00:13:29.180 Your news.

00:13:30.120 From your own news feed.

00:13:30.900 And I feel like it's.

00:13:32.120 I think it's just.

00:13:33.440 Basically broken.

00:13:34.460 How we even understand society anymore.

00:13:36.060 It's made people more insane.

00:13:37.240 We don't really know what to believe anymore.

00:13:39.140 And it's an unhealthy.

00:13:40.700 Place to be.

00:13:42.020 And as somebody who has.

00:13:43.500 Created content for a long time.

00:13:45.160 Have you found yourself being.

00:13:47.560 Pulled.

00:13:48.340 To one direction or another.

00:13:49.900 Because.

00:13:50.740 You know that that's going to generate more views.

00:13:52.580 You know.

00:13:53.620 That it's going to generate more revenue.

00:13:55.660 Et cetera.

00:13:56.520 I try.

00:13:57.560 More so on the right.

00:13:59.020 I was.

00:14:00.580 Creating.

00:14:00.900 More outrageous content.

00:14:02.340 For views.

00:14:02.860 It wasn't really about money.

00:14:04.240 We.

00:14:04.540 I mean.

00:14:04.860 I was.

00:14:05.400 Always working for people with a set salary.

00:14:07.160 That was very small.

00:14:07.900 So it didn't matter if they got more or less views.

00:14:09.400 I would always get the same amount of money.

00:14:10.640 But.

00:14:11.240 There is an excitement.

00:14:12.580 I think naturally.

00:14:13.520 To.

00:14:13.720 To.

00:14:14.060 To generate more clicks.

00:14:15.340 And to do something that more people see.

00:14:16.860 It feels.

00:14:17.240 It makes you feel like you have more of an impact.

00:14:19.040 So a lot of the time.

00:14:19.700 You know.

00:14:19.800 When I was working with.

00:14:20.680 Tommy Robinson.

00:14:21.320 We would.

00:14:22.720 Our content would become.

00:14:24.440 More leveled up.

00:14:26.360 Because we knew that it would get more.

00:14:28.060 More clicks.

00:14:28.620 It wasn't the case with.

00:14:29.600 You know.

00:14:29.720 When I was working with Lauren Southern.

00:14:31.120 Or people like that.

00:14:31.480 Can I just pause you there.

00:14:32.400 You say more leveled up.

00:14:33.480 What does that mean?

00:14:35.100 Well.

00:14:35.700 When you're writing scripts.

00:14:36.740 And talking about Islam.

00:14:37.860 It would be.

00:14:38.880 You know.

00:14:39.120 We would just use rhetoric.

00:14:40.060 That would become a little bit more.

00:14:42.040 Outrageous.

00:14:42.720 Because.

00:14:43.480 I guess I knew it would.

00:14:44.980 You know.

00:14:45.420 More people would watch it.

00:14:46.320 And then we'd have more of an impact.

00:14:47.400 And then we'd have more success.

00:14:48.740 With our message.

00:14:49.720 You know.

00:14:49.840 It wasn't this.

00:14:50.500 Completely insidious thing.

00:14:51.580 It was just.

00:14:52.020 That's almost the marketing tool you have to use.

00:14:54.920 To become more successful.

00:14:56.760 And to have a bigger audience.

00:14:59.040 And then to get your message out.

00:15:03.060 Mostly though.

00:15:03.900 I mean.

00:15:04.140 The work that I was most proud of.

00:15:05.420 You know.

00:15:05.620 Was things like.

00:15:06.540 You know.

00:15:06.980 With Farmlands.

00:15:07.740 Or with some of those documentaries.

00:15:08.840 That were considered.

00:15:09.680 That took a long time.

00:15:10.520 That were actually adding something.

00:15:12.640 To public debate.

00:15:14.180 The film I made in Ukraine.

00:15:15.200 That actually added to public debate.

00:15:16.860 Series considered things.

00:15:17.920 But those.

00:15:20.140 Those are great.

00:15:21.080 But over time.

00:15:22.040 The longer you spend on Twitter.

00:15:23.400 It naturally.

00:15:24.280 I think you just get drawn.

00:15:25.360 Drawn down more.

00:15:26.360 Of kind of extreme rabbit holes.

00:15:27.360 When this is why no one's really doing.

00:15:28.760 Real journalism anymore as well.

00:15:30.160 I don't think.

00:15:30.640 I think this is why everyone's atomizing.

00:15:32.460 And going independent.

00:15:33.320 It's why.

00:15:34.060 You know.

00:15:34.300 Megyn Kelly has a commentary show now.

00:15:36.460 Instead of doing the original journalism.

00:15:37.820 She used to do.

00:15:38.260 I think it's why everyone's splitting off.

00:15:39.880 And breaking off from their networks.

00:15:41.460 Because they're saying more and more outrageous things.

00:15:43.300 Like you know.

00:15:43.680 Candace Owens.

00:15:44.400 All these other people.

00:15:45.120 I think it's atomizing everyone.

00:15:46.760 And causing everyone to be on a rat race.

00:15:49.380 To be the leader of who can say the most outrageous extreme things.

00:15:51.600 To get the most engagement.

00:15:52.780 So that they can have the biggest message.

00:15:54.080 It doesn't necessarily mean it's always a bad thing.

00:15:56.060 Because having more reach.

00:15:58.300 Is good for everyone.

00:16:00.100 But the mental health impact.

00:16:02.200 I think is devastating.

00:16:03.840 And I think it can just break people.

00:16:05.380 It can cause them to become horrible.

00:16:07.120 And I can tell you that myself.

00:16:07.980 It definitely can.

00:16:08.660 What's interesting to me is.

00:16:09.700 I think there's a big role for personal responsibility.

00:16:12.420 In all of this.

00:16:13.080 Because 20 years ago.

00:16:14.560 If you put more outrageous things in the newspaper headline.

00:16:17.240 It would also sell more newspapers.

00:16:18.520 But there would have been somebody.

00:16:20.020 In the editorial team.

00:16:21.380 Who would have said.

00:16:21.700 No no.

00:16:21.940 We can't do this.

00:16:23.300 And I certainly don't feel that.

00:16:24.960 We've become more extreme over time.

00:16:26.840 I've become much more measured.

00:16:28.720 In what I post on Twitter over time.

00:16:31.100 And how I consume Twitter as well.

00:16:33.180 So I think there's.

00:16:33.900 There's a big role for your own thing.

00:16:35.640 But I want to take you back.

00:16:36.780 To your conversation with India.

00:16:38.160 Because you say you just did an interview.

00:16:41.100 Which from one perspective is true. 0.96

00:16:43.180 But I think the very nature of the trans discussion is such.

00:16:46.500 That it's actually very difficult.

00:16:49.460 To do an interview with somebody.

00:16:51.900 Without at least to some people taking a position.

00:16:55.620 For example.

00:16:57.560 You said you didn't call India him.

00:17:00.080 But I thought I saw a video that you did.

00:17:02.940 Maybe I'm wrong.

00:17:04.140 I'm happy to be corrected.

00:17:05.460 But throughout this conversation.

00:17:07.960 You've called India them. 0.97

00:17:09.580 Which is to me.

00:17:10.840 No offense to you personally.

00:17:12.380 But just as a position. 0.99

00:17:13.620 Is even more ridiculous. 0.99

00:17:15.080 Than. 0.99

00:17:16.640 Because India is not a them. 0.98

00:17:18.720 There isn't.

00:17:19.200 There is no them.

00:17:20.780 Right.

00:17:21.340 Do you see what I mean?

00:17:22.220 Well I know.

00:17:23.120 So.

00:17:23.560 Sorry.

00:17:24.020 Just to finish the point.

00:17:25.580 So.

00:17:26.160 By doing an interview with somebody.

00:17:28.260 That you then defend on that basis.

00:17:30.080 Or whether you talk about India as a them later.

00:17:32.920 You have already made yourself part of the of the way the conversation is being had.

00:17:38.760 No I think if calling India as she is taking one side of the culture war.

00:17:42.300 And calling India as him is taking one side of the culture war.

00:17:44.780 Calling India as them is basically not referring to them as either of those things.

00:17:48.620 Them isn't a thing.

00:17:49.620 It's basically just a neutral term.

00:17:51.140 Which I think is the way to.

00:17:52.880 I think is the most neutral way that you can you can come at it.

00:17:55.560 That's interesting.

00:17:56.180 So.

00:17:57.980 Well.

00:17:59.560 The most neutral thing.

00:18:01.480 I think it's the most neutral way that you can come you can come about it.

00:18:04.320 Well yes.

00:18:05.600 But it's kind of like.

00:18:07.160 Look.

00:18:08.240 Obviously people might disagree with this.

00:18:10.120 But it's kind of like saying.

00:18:11.540 You know.

00:18:12.360 It's like what the BBC said.

00:18:13.780 BBC said.

00:18:14.560 Well we're not calling Hamas terrorists.

00:18:16.120 Because we were trying to be neutral.

00:18:18.080 There is a truth.

00:18:20.500 That.

00:18:21.340 That you have to acknowledge.

00:18:23.160 Like India is male. 1.00

00:18:25.020 So India was born male. 0.97

00:18:26.820 India identifies as another gender now. 0.99

00:18:29.460 I might not agree.

00:18:30.980 You might not agree with what those things are.

00:18:33.380 So them is just.

00:18:34.220 It's an abstract term.

00:18:35.400 And then it takes away the whole gender. 0.96

00:18:37.260 Yeah.

00:18:37.360 I don't think it does.

00:18:38.400 Yeah. 0.93

00:18:38.860 Also Hamas are terrorists.

00:18:41.800 Right. 0.97

00:18:41.900 And India is male. 0.99

00:18:42.740 So India was born male. 0.97

00:18:44.760 But still is male.

00:18:45.700 You can't change whether you're male or not. 0.65

00:18:47.360 Well this is what's difficult.

00:18:48.600 Like is it an aggressive.

00:18:50.420 Is it a rude.

00:18:51.620 Is it a mean thing.

00:18:53.420 To call someone who looks like a woman.

00:18:56.780 A male.

00:18:57.580 I mean I don't think it's.

00:18:58.380 You know when Blair White was being interviewed.

00:19:00.100 By Candace Owens on Dave Rubin's show.

00:19:02.060 And Candace kept saying you're a man.

00:19:03.760 I thought that was horrible.

00:19:04.860 Blair clearly looks like a woman. 1.00

00:19:06.180 And I don't.

00:19:06.580 And I think even.

00:19:07.380 Even if India doesn't look. 0.99

00:19:08.980 Quite the same as Blair.

00:19:10.940 It means that it's okay to.

00:19:12.480 To just call him a man.

00:19:13.060 But I'm not saying you're a man to India's face.

00:19:15.360 I'm just saying.

00:19:16.300 When you talk about India in our conversation.

00:19:18.620 To many people.

00:19:20.560 You being unwilling.

00:19:22.100 To effectively be honest.

00:19:23.140 About what the truth is.

00:19:24.620 Will be seen as taking a position.

00:19:26.600 Well I think.

00:19:27.020 I think removing myself.

00:19:28.180 Because I'm supposed to be a journalist in this.

00:19:29.420 Removing myself from that whole debate.

00:19:31.220 Is saying.

00:19:32.180 They are they.

00:19:33.080 And they are them.

00:19:33.980 Because that's not the non-binary thing. 0.95

00:19:35.840 That's just referring to them.

00:19:36.940 As if I said India.

00:19:37.960 Instead of them.

00:19:38.860 And it just takes it away.

00:19:40.020 Because that's not what I'm trying to do.

00:19:41.120 I'm not trying to get involved in the culture war.

00:19:42.820 If I said she.

00:19:44.060 The right rolling people would be annoyed.

00:19:45.920 If I said him.

00:19:47.020 Then the trans right activists would be annoyed.

00:19:48.780 And that's not the debate that I'm trying to get into.

00:19:50.620 So I think it's the neutral.

00:19:53.460 Proper way to talk about.

00:19:55.420 I would argue your experience demonstrates otherwise.

00:19:57.740 But anyway.

00:20:00.540 Maybe.

00:20:01.600 You know.

00:20:05.100 You know.

00:20:06.660 Listening to experience.

00:20:08.700 On the one hand.

00:20:09.800 I go.

00:20:10.240 This is absolute insanity.

00:20:12.540 Where we've come to as a society.

00:20:15.280 That we're sitting down and having this conversation.

00:20:17.400 On the other hand.

00:20:18.300 I'm going.

00:20:19.060 Well.

00:20:20.020 You know.

00:20:20.520 What did you expect in a way.

00:20:23.680 And what does I really say about society and journalism.

00:20:27.400 That this is the hottest topic.

00:20:29.280 If you're looking around at our society.

00:20:31.800 You're looking at wars breaking out.

00:20:33.340 You're looking at people struggling to afford the basics of life.

00:20:38.160 Housing crisis.

00:20:39.340 Whatever it may be.

00:20:40.740 Political system.

00:20:41.560 Not being fit for purpose.

00:20:43.520 What do you think is so incredibly toxic about this issue?

00:20:49.240 Well.

00:20:49.560 A lot of.

00:20:50.680 Generally.

00:20:51.560 Politics has become more toxic.

00:20:53.220 Just all across the board.

00:20:54.520 Even if you're talking about Ukraine.

00:20:55.680 Then you get called.

00:20:56.700 You know.

00:20:56.900 It's all called a proxy war.

00:20:58.120 Or you're called anti-Putra.

00:20:59.180 You know.

00:20:59.360 And that's become completely toxic.

00:21:00.960 You can't talk about Palestine or Israel anymore.

00:21:02.940 Without death threats.

00:21:04.100 You can't talk about almost any subject.

00:21:06.020 This is just slightly hotter than that.

00:21:08.120 Because we're very bougie in Britain.

00:21:09.980 And we like to talk about local issues.

00:21:11.240 And things that are easy.

00:21:13.280 And that's what journalism is focusing on.

00:21:15.020 But.

00:21:15.180 I mean.

00:21:16.360 I get told by so many people.

00:21:17.560 Well.

00:21:17.740 Why.

00:21:17.960 What did you expect?

00:21:18.640 Why did you just not have this conversation?

00:21:20.240 Why did you just not get involved in this?

00:21:21.500 Why did you just not cover this story?

00:21:23.020 And I'm like.

00:21:23.380 Well.

00:21:23.460 Maybe that's also one of the reasons.

00:21:25.040 That it's so difficult to talk about.

00:21:26.640 And it's so bad.

00:21:27.860 Because people just expect you not to get into it.

00:21:29.940 And not to talk about it.

00:21:30.760 And not to.

00:21:31.240 And to have it as an issue that we.

00:21:32.820 That we ignore.

00:21:34.180 And I think that's unhealthy as well.

00:21:35.680 But.

00:21:36.260 Generally. 1.00

00:21:36.860 Everything has become more fucked. 0.99

00:21:38.820 Working on the left and the right. 1.00

00:21:40.280 And seeing all of the.

00:21:41.480 All of the different dynamics.

00:21:43.080 And all of the different subjects.

00:21:44.460 It's become almost impossible to discuss anything on Twitter anymore.

00:21:48.440 Because we've all just.

00:21:49.440 We've all.

00:21:49.760 We all just hate each other now.

00:21:50.900 You know.

00:21:51.020 People.

00:21:52.560 Are not actually that horrible in real life.

00:21:55.560 You know.

00:21:55.740 People on the left.

00:21:56.460 Who I've worked with recently.

00:21:57.220 Who are really high profile figures.

00:21:58.900 Can be absolutely.

00:22:00.480 Lovely and loyal behind the scenes.

00:22:02.000 Who I'll probably have friends for the rest of my life.

00:22:03.760 And it's the same with people on the right.

00:22:05.220 But as soon as they get their phone out.

00:22:07.040 They become completely different people.

00:22:08.560 And they become incapable of even seeing the other side as human beings.

00:22:11.880 Seeing the other side as.

00:22:12.880 As.

00:22:13.200 As.

00:22:13.500 As normal.

00:22:14.200 It's even when I left.

00:22:15.760 The right.

00:22:17.180 And started working on the center left.

00:22:18.820 There were so many people that would say.

00:22:21.160 You should never have.

00:22:22.080 You should never have left.

00:22:23.340 You know.

00:22:23.820 You should never work again.

00:22:25.160 Who would make massive complaints.

00:22:26.220 That I should never be able to be employed again.

00:22:28.060 Never mind.

00:22:28.440 Make news again on those.

00:22:29.460 On those spectrums.

00:22:30.080 Because they don't see people.

00:22:31.220 Who engage in debates about things like immigration.

00:22:33.800 Or free speech.

00:22:34.640 As human beings.

00:22:35.520 Who should be allowed to even exist or work anymore. 1.00

00:22:37.560 And that's completely fucked too. 0.99

00:22:39.540 So. 0.99

00:22:41.180 It's.

00:22:41.640 It's just been.

00:22:45.480 Completely devastating to see.

00:22:46.960 It looks like that kind of decline of civilization and society.

00:22:49.960 Through the internet.

00:22:51.620 And.

00:22:52.520 I don't think it's going to get any better.

00:22:54.180 But the trans debate.

00:22:54.880 Again.

00:22:55.100 It's no better than the Palestine-Israel debate. 0.99

00:22:56.580 It's no different to the Ukraine.

00:22:58.800 Russia debate.

00:22:59.680 I think it is different.

00:23:01.180 For the reasons that we just tried to discuss.

00:23:03.300 Which is.

00:23:04.540 The problem.

00:23:05.440 The reason the trans debate is so toxic. 1.00

00:23:07.340 Is it's.

00:23:07.680 It's kind of.

00:23:08.920 Indicative of a broader thing.

00:23:10.660 Where we've become a society that prioritizes.

00:23:15.160 Being nice over being honest.

00:23:18.500 And.

00:23:19.140 So.

00:23:19.860 The them.

00:23:20.680 The them.

00:23:21.500 That's why I picked up on this.

00:23:22.800 Right.

00:23:23.320 It's like.

00:23:24.340 We had India on the show. 0.93

00:23:25.700 And we were very respectful.

00:23:27.320 And welcoming.

00:23:28.380 And blah blah blah.

00:23:29.740 But.

00:23:30.680 It doesn't change biological reality.

00:23:33.040 I'm happy to call India India.

00:23:35.720 Right.

00:23:36.300 But.

00:23:37.400 I guess what I'm saying is.

00:23:38.740 I think it's very different.

00:23:39.560 Because at the core of it.

00:23:41.140 There is an unwillingness to be honest about a truth.

00:23:44.460 In order to be nice.

00:23:45.940 Which is not the case with Israel and Palestine.

00:23:48.260 It's just a tribal conflict.

00:23:49.540 It's not the case with Ukraine and Russia.

00:23:51.520 It's just a international conflict etc.

00:23:54.360 But on this issue.

00:23:55.480 I think the reason it has become.

00:23:57.400 As prominent as it has.

00:23:59.360 Is you have you know leading politicians.

00:24:01.460 Keir Starmer at some point.

00:24:02.800 You know not knowing what a woman is. 0.98

00:24:04.100 And all this other stuff.

00:24:05.260 And a lot of people just see that as dishonesty.

00:24:08.100 Yeah.

00:24:08.340 I mean also.

00:24:08.880 Britain is a unique.

00:24:11.320 Also in Britain like. 0.53

00:24:12.860 We have a value system that is to be overly polite.

00:24:15.940 Like we're ridiculed of it across the world.

00:24:17.260 That is kind of what it is to be British.

00:24:18.660 So I think there should be a bit of a balance between.

00:24:21.060 Being nice and being honest.

00:24:22.080 Otherwise we're just going to be you know.

00:24:23.780 Brutally honest and horrible to each other all the time.

00:24:25.080 There's a lot of Eastern Bloc countries.

00:24:26.340 Which are a bit like that.

00:24:28.000 And it's kind of unpleasant as a culture. 0.99

00:24:29.720 So I think it's a good thing in your society.

00:24:31.520 In your culture.

00:24:32.360 To be a bit polite.

00:24:33.320 That doesn't mean you deny facts and reality completely.

00:24:35.460 Right.

00:24:35.680 I think calling someone them is polite.

00:24:37.880 And I don't think it hurts anyone.

00:24:39.240 I think it's fine.

00:24:40.060 I don't think it increases or decreases the culture war anymore.

00:24:42.400 I think that's a nice British thing just to be polite.

00:24:46.920 But I don't know.

00:24:47.840 I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

00:24:48.820 I mean you talk about that all the time with you know politeness and honesty.

00:24:51.500 But surely you know you acknowledge one of the great values about Britain is that we're

00:24:55.680 you know polite.

00:24:56.920 Completely.

00:24:57.280 But I think the reason the trans issue is a little bit different is that the downstream

00:25:01.940 and this is it took me a little while to truly get this as well.

00:25:06.160 So I didn't necessarily start in this position.

00:25:08.060 But with the trans issue the difference is that by being initially polite you then have 0.67

00:25:14.100 a bunch of downstream consequences because you are not able to talk about people's sex

00:25:18.020 properly.

00:25:19.040 If you if you say this person identifies as a woman and wants to dress as a woman and

00:25:24.760 have a feminine name and whatever but is male that's fine because when it comes to single 0.70

00:25:30.060 sex spaces when it comes to female sports etc you go well we accept India's right to

00:25:35.140 be whatever India wants to be except in these situations where India is still male. 0.90

00:25:40.040 You see what I mean?

00:25:40.780 Yeah.

00:25:41.060 Well I mean it's kind of you can also draw a line.

00:25:43.780 This is like what people used to say about gay marriage. 0.99

00:25:45.440 Once we allow gay marriage then we'll be allowing people to have sex with animals. 1.00

00:25:48.160 It's like once we allow one thing then the rest is going to go. 0.97

00:25:51.240 Once we're polite to trans people then it will become more.

00:25:53.280 No sorry just to be clear so that we were talking about the same thing.

00:25:56.460 I'm not saying if we call India a woman then at some point later down the line things will

00:26:02.620 get even worse.

00:26:03.820 What I'm saying is the logical consequence in the present moment of not acknowledging that

00:26:09.020 India is male is India is then entitled to do things that India shouldn't be entitled 1.00

00:26:12.980 to do well that's right now like go into a female space like participate in female sports 1.00

00:26:19.660 etc right.

00:26:20.620 So it's not about if we allow gay marriage then things will get even worse. 0.60

00:26:25.280 It's more like if we refuse to be honest about the truth now you're going to get Adam Graham 0.99

00:26:30.660 pretend that he's Isla Graham or Isla Bryson and end up in a female prison with a penis having 1.00

00:26:36.280 raped two women. 1.00

00:26:38.180 That's a good point. 0.93

00:26:38.880 Yeah I mean this is also why I probably shouldn't really have gotten into this because you know

00:26:45.600 far more about this than I do and I've never really researched it this was just an interesting

00:26:48.900 story and I just wanted to get that perspective and thought saying then was it was an all right

00:26:52.220 thing to do I think it's why I'm so sad about this whole situation because I didn't have like

00:26:55.960 a bad intention but yeah I mean what you're saying is true.

00:26:59.640 Bad intention I'm just saying I don't think it's possible to have these conversations and

00:27:05.580 fudge on certain things because you're just not you're not going to get anywhere.

00:27:10.400 So you think I should have called India a man in the response?

00:27:14.120 No I there's I actually if you want to be tactical about it what I would have just said is India

00:27:19.260 India India instead of them them them. 0.98

00:27:21.440 Yeah.

00:27:22.200 Fair enough.

00:27:22.840 Yeah that's how you might play it in that situation next time but but my point more broadly

00:27:27.920 is I just think this issue in particular is as contentious as it is because there's some

00:27:34.500 really key things that are being debated under the pretense of talking about the trans issue

00:27:40.380 and one of them is are we allowed to be truthful to prevent harm if it hurts someone's feelings

00:27:48.680 and my view after some consideration is yes we should be able to be honest even if some people

00:27:54.100 get upset by it.

00:27:55.100 Yeah and and it's also as well then you bring in the whole kids element of it you know kids

00:27:59.760 of a certain age 9 10 11 begin given puberty blockers when the reality is they can't possibly 0.86

00:28:05.440 consent to that form of medical intervention.

00:28:08.320 So what eventually happens with this issue is that people who aren't as aware of every facet of it

00:28:15.340 because it is kind of like an iceberg issue on the surface of it you go well we're just talking

00:28:20.080 about pronouns aren't we but there's everything else below and the moment people then walk into

00:28:27.140 this particular minefield they tread on something and they don't even actually know what's happened

00:28:32.840 or why something has blown up.

00:28:35.420 Yeah it's true but I think I think generally it's yeah I mean that makes sense it's something I guess

00:28:40.840 I still don't know that much about yeah um but I can see how that would work but it's also why I

00:28:45.640 haven't really discussed this ever really on a show before or done any work about it because it's

00:28:49.580 extremely complicated and I just don't know you know it's not my area of what I've ever you know

00:28:53.840 studied or talked about but um the other reason that the bio that this may have happened as well is

00:28:59.980 I think it's the publication that you worked for which is I'm keen to get back to which will be

00:29:05.220 perceived by many people as being kind of far left certainly the publication side of it and so when

00:29:11.500 a that publication does a piece with India Willoughby people are going to put those two

00:29:16.480 two and two together and then they're probably not going to give you the benefit of the doubt of

00:29:19.940 this is a neutral interviewer trying to have that conversation so I guess the question is you're now

00:29:25.020 leaving the byline times why is that?

00:29:27.580 well no I'm I'm I'm basically going to just take a step back for six months because I've spent

00:29:34.040 far too long on the internet far too long on twitter and far too long with these things

00:29:37.680 and I'm probably going to go and start another network but for six months I don't know for sure

00:29:41.160 what's going to happen but I just want to uh get off get off the internet because I'm going to go

00:29:45.200 completely insane like uh like a lot of my friends and colleagues uh well I know you can't talk about

00:29:49.240 everything because you you ended up signing and yeah I'm just curious to some extent what it is that

00:29:54.860 caused you to leave I guess yeah without getting you in trouble without getting you in trouble I'm

00:30:00.760 just curious well I mean it's what you can say I think it's just that I became the thing that um you

00:30:06.100 know this was a mutual decision I became the thing that I hate which is which is a which is someone

00:30:12.040 that was at the depths of the of the culture war floor on the internet that called a really high 0.97

00:30:16.980 profile you know one of the most successful children's author in the world a cunt and and just can't 0.97

00:30:22.440 and I just you know can't continue to you know do professional content and be and be like a 0.94

00:30:27.800 I don't know it's not a good look but it's also just embarrassing and it's not who I actually

00:30:33.260 like am and have been for the last few years I focused on making great films and great content

00:30:37.700 and actually trying to add something to the public discourse and through being involved in this stuff

00:30:42.640 even for 48 hours became the thing that I've criticized for years and became the thing about you

00:30:47.400 know internet radicalization rabbit holes becoming crazy became that again it has just made me want

00:30:53.100 to just you know take a step back again for six months and reset but it's extremely um yeah it's

00:30:57.980 extremely draining it's difficult can I just finish one thing on this because I'm so I totally get all

00:31:05.620 that and people everybody makes mistakes everybody what I'm what I was curious about is sitting in this

00:31:12.740 chair only a few months ago was Lawrence Fox who said that he wouldn't shag a female journalist 0.99

00:31:19.740 and I wonder if he had called that journalist a putrid cunt whether the response would have been 0.98

00:31:27.600 as measured and mild as actually it has been with you you've been on both left and right in the media 0.99

00:31:33.720 and I'm I just I wonder look I what Lawrence said you know we talked with him about it and I think he

00:31:39.980 was actually not necessarily all that happy with the way we conducted that interview I thought we

00:31:44.220 were fair because I did think that what he said was I mean what you said was way worse yeah uh but

00:31:50.800 what he said was also out of line but I guess my question is do you think that if Lawrence Fox had said

00:31:57.960 that he would have been treated the same as you've been treated you know do you see what I'm getting

00:32:02.920 that do people on different sides of politics who make broadly similar kinds of transgressions get 0.97

00:32:08.240 treated equally no I think it is seen on the left on Twitter as okay to call JK Rowling a cunt because

00:32:16.480 we don't see people as human beings on the other side of our politics anymore right-wingers do exactly 0.99

00:32:21.980 the same thing to people on the left which is why they think they're all pedos and they should be 0.96

00:32:25.160 thrown in jail they don't see them as human beings and people on the left don't see people 0.75

00:32:28.220 like JK Rowling as human beings in a lot of ways as well so when I made that comment which I don't mean

00:32:32.640 and I actually always liked JK Rowling um the um uh the fact that I have been even in the last

00:32:39.380 couple of weeks at events I've been to or events that are left-wing told oh you shouldn't have

00:32:44.460 deleted it you were right anyway you know you're on the side was sad because I shouldn't have said

00:32:49.640 that people people were saying to you you were right to call her that yeah people on the left um

00:32:54.880 because that's what they think they don't see people like JK Rowling as human beings because we

00:32:58.920 don't see anyone on the other side of our politics as human beings anymore because of the atomization

00:33:03.380 of things like Twitter and because of the way that we converse in our politics anymore and that's that's

00:33:07.980 the most sad thing um and I didn't really know it was that bad until I tweeted that um but it's horrible

00:33:15.620 but it's the future of our politics this is how we're all going to start conversing and seeing each

00:33:19.080 other not necessarily this show and you guys you've been doing this for a long time and in a measured

00:33:23.840 and proper way you haven't been chasing likes and clicks but most commentators do and that's why I

00:33:29.460 think people are people are breaking down that's why we're probably headed for something like civil

00:33:32.720 war one day because we don't see anyone else as human beings who don't have the same politics as

00:33:37.960 us anymore. Kaelin I find that the fact that the people on the left would come up to you and you know

00:33:45.560 metaphorically slap you on the back for that tweet when the left always talk about patriarchy

00:33:53.100 misogyny and you're a man who called and look you apologize fine but you're a man who called a 1.00

00:33:59.820 woman a cunt and that's incredible. There's going to be so many bleeps in this interview. Yeah it is. 1.00

00:34:05.300 Because we want that YouTube advertising money thank you very much. Exactly and it sounds it sounds

00:34:09.840 better when I say it let's be fair the accent it gives it a little je ne sais quoi but that's deeply

00:34:16.580 misogynistic. Yeah because because it isn't about misogyny it isn't about who's right and who's wrong

00:34:22.720 it's about us versus them and it's about it's about us being divided and the good side and the

00:34:27.860 evil side and that's all we see each other as. It doesn't matter whether it's actually misogynistic

00:34:31.940 or not. There are countless examples of stuff like this I saw on the right with hypocrisy as well

00:34:37.380 there's also. Like what give us some examples. Well I mean it's you know we talk about right-wingers

00:34:43.740 talk about grooming gangs being one of the central problems in Britain but there's a huge problem with

00:34:47.180 sexual abuse and sexual assault being tolerated with figures on the right and that's very well 1.00

00:34:50.820 known by a lot of. Which figures? Well there's well there's a lot of members of the EDL who are

00:34:56.480 convicted who were who were who were who were all doing this stuff who had all their names and stuff

00:35:01.380 published who didn't really have any backlash from from those groups and then there are figures now

00:35:05.340 who are very high profile who are some of the most high profile people in the world who have been

00:35:09.440 who have been engaged in that stuff who who see it as absolutely fine and who's who's you know

00:35:15.120 the right basically have a tolerance for that stuff and. I have to be honest with you we've had

00:35:20.300 lots of people who are left and right of center and I obviously know lots of people we both do in

00:35:26.660 their circles I have no idea what you're talking about genuinely. Yeah you know I mean I can't go

00:35:30.680 into this because there's an active court case with these things but look there is also a culture

00:35:33.800 of language of people like say like people like Andrew Tate on the right who are. I don't know if

00:35:37.760 Andrew Tate is on the right I don't know if he's political I just well maybe you know more I don't

00:35:42.380 know. Well I think Andrew Tate is seen as a right-wing figure 100% who has said hugely

00:35:48.280 misogynistic things on his TikTok about women and treat women badly but then who will also talk

00:35:52.740 about grooming gangs being the biggest problem in the UK or you know how Islam is you know then his 1.00

00:35:57.180 colleagues and people like that will talk about how you know Islam is terrible because it's 0.99

00:36:02.560 misogynistic and hates women and hates gays when they're doing the same thing so there's a lot of 0.99

00:36:07.260 hypocrisy but again it's not about us it's not about you know misogyny or not misogyny it's about 0.97

00:36:12.120 you know my side versus your side and good versus evil and tribalism so that's why I think that's

00:36:18.160 why that stuff is happening with JK Rowling it's also the fact that you know we can't you know we

00:36:21.920 want to talk about how great it is to celebrate women in power and powerful women but a lot of

00:36:27.380 people on the left want to tear down the most successful children's book offer you know one

00:36:31.240 of the first female billionaires um for because she said a few things they don't like and that's you 0.97

00:36:36.180 know hypocritical as well so this it's it's it's again I don't really think any of this is really

00:36:39.800 about politics it's just about tribalism and hating people on the other side because that's 0.91

00:36:43.660 what gets clicks and that's who we've been you know taught to hate do you think how much of this

00:36:48.880 do you think is people's beliefs how much of this do you think is outright cynicism going for the

00:36:56.180 clicks and how much of this is people being manipulated in a sense by the algorithms by their

00:37:01.780 experience online to see people who disagree with them in that way well the people who propagate a

00:37:09.300 lot of this stuff I think are driven by clicks and likes and you know they'll they'll say anything

00:37:13.720 that will generate attention and usually replies to tweets get far more attraction than than a tweet

00:37:19.380 itself which incentivizes and encourages arguments and and takedowns and it's why everyone who writes

00:37:25.140 a tweet there's a one under it saying the opposite it's about encouraging people to to to constantly

00:37:29.780 constantly be pissed off and angry and argue with people so I think a huge amount of it is that

00:37:34.000 um but the second amount is it's our news feeds are entirely different from each other's now and

00:37:39.660 we consume 300 foot of news feed every day which you printed out would be the length of a football

00:37:44.200 stadium and that's how we form our entire world opinion we don't read newspapers watch television

00:37:47.960 anymore and that news feed is curated based on the political opinions that you already have

00:37:52.700 or they're driven to more extreme versions of those and that is how you perceive the world

00:37:56.860 and that is usually giving you only one version of an event in which there are two sides and that

00:38:02.420 will drive you more and more and more to see the other side as an enemy to hate them more whether

00:38:06.440 you're on the left or the right and it incentivizes that tribalism because it's very monetizable as

00:38:13.020 well I mean this is how these these social media sites are are designed and driven to be profit-based

00:38:17.300 and to keep you on there for as long as possible and a lot of the time it's not people's fault they're

00:38:21.880 scrolling through their feed they think that they're looking at the real world they think that

00:38:25.060 they're looking at news stories but they're seeing one more extreme version of an event and not

00:38:30.660 believing the other thing happened um you know it's even like when when these kind of hate crime

00:38:34.780 statistics will come out you know in 2016 and 2017 I would read constant reports on my feed that would

00:38:40.220 talk about hate crime hoax here the big hate crime hoax in America with that Muslim girl with a hijab 1.00

00:38:44.700 that was faked and it was all about fake hate hate crimes happening and I went to my friend's news

00:38:49.160 feed on Twitter around the same time and it was talking about the rise in hate crimes and how it's become

00:38:54.640 an epidemic and how since Brexit is going through the roof and the two news feeds basically contrasted to

00:39:00.260 one that said they didn't exist they were all hoaxes and one that said it was becoming an epidemic

00:39:03.880 those two things are the reasons that we just don't understand basically reality anymore and can't

00:39:09.680 stand you know the other side because you know if I said you know hate crimes aren't on the rise

00:39:14.020 people would think I'm an absolute monster you know supremacist or whatever but I would think that

00:39:18.520 because my news feed told me that so it's it's hard so how did you make that transition from moving

00:39:24.240 right to left because you worked with some pretty major figures on the right you worked with Tommy

00:39:29.600 Robinson Lauren Southern you did a bit of work for Alex Jones yeah I mean that's and then moving to

00:39:37.920 byline times that's that's a hell of a gear change isn't it well kind of if you look at everything I've

00:39:44.000 said publicly in the last four years I haven't said anything that is left-wing you know I haven't said

00:39:48.680 a left-wing opinion you know I haven't said anything about the trans debate on the on the left or right

00:39:52.440 I've said Brexit's bad because it's damaged Britain because I saw that in the steelworks and news reports

00:39:56.700 I did a lot of work in Ukraine talking about war crimes but it wasn't really going on the left

00:40:00.660 byline times as far as I can see it I don't think I know you disagree is a hard left newspaper it's

00:40:06.200 one of the only newspapers that exist in Britain that are funding original investigative reporting

00:40:10.380 they exposed the PPE scandal they exposed a huge amount of corruption in the government and they

00:40:15.520 also facilitated me to be able to travel across the UK and do on the ground independent journalism

00:40:20.080 across Europe actually yeah and and at a time where we're not doing that anymore so I I saw that

00:40:26.200 outlet as a as probably a solution to the stuff that I was seeing on the right which was one-sided

00:40:31.980 commentary and no original reporting I saw a newspaper that's actually funding real investigative

00:40:37.180 journalism and I thought it was a great place to go which it was I'm really proud of my work with

00:40:42.380 byline so obviously I had the TV set up the TV so that was a separate wing of it I wasn't closely

00:40:47.660 involved in in the paper and their editorial and their investigations but I carried out you know

00:40:52.780 I used to I used to get a notepad and go out and find original stories when the stuff was happening

00:40:56.420 with farming and trade deals in this country I'd get into a car and drive all the way up to North

00:41:00.340 umberland and find farms knock on their doors ask them how they've been impacted and then do reports

00:41:04.220 and come back to London with them and they would do really really well because my work on the right

00:41:08.080 as much as you know it was it was very very successful and it was getting a lot of clicks it wasn't

00:41:16.020 adding anything to um to actual culture I don't think was adding anything to to to I don't think

00:41:22.940 it was doing anything really helpful or anything really good it was just propagating right-wing

00:41:25.940 opinions and I thought going on the left and doing the same thing would be just doing the you know

00:41:31.120 be doing the same kind of damage no one actually gets anywhere from it it's splitting society just

00:41:34.400 as much in the same way so that's why all my work has been investigative journalism for the last

00:41:38.700 four years the problem was getting involved for 10 seconds in in the trans debate but the reason I was on

00:41:43.580 the right was because you know in 2016 everything was on fire Europe was on fire everything was

00:41:49.680 burning there was terrorist attacks every five minutes you had Charlie Hebdo you had the newspapers

00:41:53.760 being shot up and no one was talking about it in the media you had the Orlando shooting where 50 gay

00:41:57.840 people were killed by a Muslim extremist and then you had Owen Jones being the only person they really

00:42:02.760 brought on to discuss it and say it had nothing to do with Islam they didn't look at the ideology

00:42:06.380 behind it they didn't look at the the reason it was it was happening they didn't look at the Quran

00:42:10.360 not like when Christchurch happened and they broke down the entire ideology of the white supremacist

00:42:15.020 tutor and took action against that and I felt like there was a gap in the media that needed to be

00:42:20.320 filled with people having these conversations and discussing them so that's when I wrote to Rebel and

00:42:24.280 I got a job as a presenter there and I was I you know I was at the beginning doing pretty good work

00:42:28.380 it was about free speech why we're not having these conversations it was talking about Islam

00:42:31.420 but it was pretty moderate and it was genuinely something I thought was really really good

00:42:35.460 but over time there is an incentive to create stuff that is more outrageous within the rebel model

00:42:42.900 there was that system which is why I left and then I guess I became a bit of a victim of it too

00:42:47.540 working with those people of just making stuff for the sake of being controversial and at the end of

00:42:51.660 it it wasn't what I had set out to do originally which was to fill a gap of having real conversations

00:42:55.780 it was just putting out right-wing propaganda and that's kind of how a lot of those people operate

00:43:01.140 um so so that's why I left a lot of that I mean there are other reasons also it's it's it's

00:43:06.740 extremely chaotic there's a huge amount of backstabbing that's why they're still all falling

00:43:11.060 out with each other even to this day sounds like the left mate to be honest yeah no but it's like

00:43:14.740 well I mean left is a little bit more organized but I mean it was well it's a bit more sensible

00:43:20.120 you know you don't have the same chaos on the left than you do on the right right now with you

00:43:24.040 know with the Daily Wire falling apart with Daily Wire's not falling apart they just got rid of

00:43:27.940 yeah and look what's happening with you know Steven Crowder and Jared and that lawsuit all in

00:43:32.560 the same week I mean that is not happening on on the left on that same level it's interesting because

00:43:36.780 we have a running joke whenever we have a left-wing guest uh we always say to the guys don't if

00:43:42.180 they're running late setting up well don't worry he's on the left he's not going to be on time well

00:43:45.920 I'm not on the left but but it's interesting I mean our experience with left-wing people which

00:43:53.820 was our industry in comedy is there far less organized than people in the right but anyway

00:43:58.820 uh so I so I it sounds like to me that actually many of the reasons that you were attracted to

00:44:05.760 the right-wing space still are valid in your mind and that's kind of you still think those things are

00:44:10.860 important yeah I mean the the questions are still valid why didn't media cover this stuff we still have

00:44:16.700 a complete lack of of courage to be able to have any of the conversations that you have on this show

00:44:21.180 which is why this is so successful and BBC is failing because you're having the conversations

00:44:24.980 that people need and want to hear for society to continue to develop um but the answers to those

00:44:30.760 aren't making videos uh in no-go zones with Tommy Robinson in Rome they are having these conversations

00:44:36.160 like this and I think just because the solutions I found were wrong doesn't mean that the questions

00:44:42.100 um were wrong I still think those questions are valid I've always said that um it's just

00:44:47.300 and just so that people understand why isn't doing a video in a no-go zone why isn't that part of the

00:44:54.740 answer to show people what's happening on the ground if if if it's an accurate I think it's if it's with

00:45:00.720 if it's with a commentator who is doesn't have an interest in showing exactly what's going on and is

00:45:08.120 there with an incentment to cause chaos then it's probably not the most healthy way to do it

00:45:16.480 you know yeah so can you sorry yeah I'm not sure I do know just can you explain that a little bit

00:45:23.720 more like what do you mean well I think I think going to a uh a lot of the time my reporting with

00:45:31.220 people on the right was already decided what what would happen and then we would go and cover it just

00:45:35.500 to fill an agenda right um and that wasn't again for nefarious sinister reasons it was because we knew

00:45:40.860 that we get views and then we would be able to become more influential to have these conversations

00:45:44.340 but yeah that that's that's just not a healthy way to do it to start with with your answer and

00:45:49.860 and to work backwards to to go and film it and you know if you know if you're going to go to an area

00:45:53.300 and you know it's going to erupt or you know it's going to kick off or you know whatever's going to

00:45:57.480 happen and then you film that and act really shocked I just don't think that's a healthy way to

00:46:00.680 you know make news um yeah so the the other way to do it is where you go there and you don't have

00:46:07.720 an agenda and you just report on what you see which is what I did with byline for the last four

00:46:12.480 years that's why that's why I left the right and tried to do content and investigative journalism

00:46:16.720 where I would arrive in a country like in Kiev last year I arrived there and I had no agenda I

00:46:22.120 didn't know how extreme the war was and I didn't really know what was going on I wasn't covering

00:46:26.680 Ukraine at all but ended up staying there for three months going all the way to the front line

00:46:29.780 and spending months figuring out and speaking to villagers understanding if they actually wanted to be

00:46:34.060 part of Russia or not going down to her so I'm actually figuring out what's going on for

00:46:37.300 myself and developing a film um with no agenda at the beginning and that's that's I think that's

00:46:42.360 something that I've transitioned to it's not from the right to the left really it's from making stuff

00:46:46.960 with an agenda to making stuff without an agenda um and just because byline times is perceived as being

00:46:52.320 a left-wing newspaper doesn't take away from the fact that it still allowed me to do actual

00:46:59.140 investigative journalism which I think is important I think I'm just hearing between the lines that you

00:47:04.660 think that like thinking that something is a left-wing newspaper is like a criticism the new left-wing

00:47:10.960 newspapers are allowed to exist and a part very important part of the ecosystem because left and

00:47:16.300 right will naturally focus on different issues and some of the issues the left will focus on are also

00:47:21.100 very important um as long as they're being covered accurately and fairly which as I think we'd both

00:47:26.380 we'd both agree hasn't always been the case with left and right yeah so going back to the

00:47:33.000 investigative journalism bit one of the threads that I'm noticing more and more and we've talked

00:47:37.740 about a lot of journalism with this it's actually really worrying that investigative journalism seems

00:47:44.820 to be on the way out when it's much needed in society because it holds powerful figures to account

00:47:51.200 yeah it shocked me how successful my neutral reports were when I started with uh with the tv like

00:47:57.820 literally just going to a town going to a farm going to a steelworks that was closing down or the

00:48:02.820 honda factory that closed down in swindon and just asking workers why it had happened or what the

00:48:07.440 reasons were and getting their perspective and then putting it out we get millions of views and then I

00:48:11.620 would hear the next day that you know lewis goodall or or someone from the bbc had gone and tried to

00:48:15.460 find them and ask them for an interview because these institutions are no longer getting in a car

00:48:19.640 getting a notepad out and doing actual work a because it's expensive and these companies want to save

00:48:25.060 money they have boards all across you know channel 4 and itv whose entire purpose is to cut costs as

00:48:31.780 much as possible and in that they lose the first thing to go is always investigative reporting and

00:48:36.640 that's why we're not seeing actual trusted stuff come out of these news organization anymore there's

00:48:40.940 been a new hiring process that is getting rid of their old reporters and replacing them with

00:48:45.060 political influencers for their tiktok account so they can drive engagement which is only going to

00:48:49.740 make this worse news night as part of their cuts last year cut their investigative department

00:48:54.320 as well which was literally the point of news night there's going to be a debate show now

00:48:57.600 and that leaves a huge void in britain that we have of what the hell is going on especially outside

00:49:03.640 news studios in london like i remember going to um when i went to portal but the steelworks my report

00:49:08.680 there got something like four or five million views and it was why the plant closed down and i just spent

00:49:12.720 two nights there speaking to steelworkers speaking to some of the key leaders no one in the news really

00:49:17.860 understood why it was closing down they went there for two seconds and left or they did it from london and

00:49:22.240 i asked all these people who gave me these really profound answers have the news reached out to you have

00:49:26.080 you been asked for interview and none of them said yeah even the first minister of wales said he hadn't

00:49:29.640 been reached out to and that report was i think really successful because people in this country

00:49:34.800 want original investigative on the ground reporting and they're not getting it from their televisions

00:49:39.600 anymore um and and it's it's it's really really sad because the point of the media is to give us that

00:49:45.600 so that we can um we can understand what's going on in our own country which we don't um i think that's

00:49:51.720 i've been most proud of is that work whatever i do next whether it's uh with you know byline again or

00:49:57.100 whatever it is it'll be that because even though it's expensive it's invaluable and it's fulfilling

00:50:04.380 as well you're actually finding out something that's true and then putting it out in the world

00:50:08.240 that people didn't know about and if it's popular as as it can be then that you will generate the

00:50:13.740 revenue that you need to actually keep doing it as well yeah you don't actually need to be

00:50:17.380 you don't actually need to be outrageous or extreme or just say crazy stuff to get clicks

00:50:22.920 you can actually produce really really high quality good work and people want that just as much um i

00:50:29.540 think people now want it more which is why we've always taken that approach and um i i understand look

00:50:35.260 it's true what you say people always respond to incentives um but the the incentives are not always

00:50:41.560 clear there was a moment when you know there is a short-term incentive to be outrageous and get

00:50:47.340 clicks but what i think we've observed in the six times six years we've been doing this is

00:50:51.400 most of the people who do that they rise quickly and then they fall quickly yeah whereas if you're

00:50:56.960 true to core principles which is trying to get to the truth wherever it goes then people will over

00:51:04.040 time actually see that and even if they don't agree with every individual interview you've done

00:51:08.300 or a bit of reporting you've done they'll know that you are trying to get to the truth and they'll

00:51:12.160 respect it more and then they'll watch it even if it's not necessarily the thing that panders

00:51:17.720 perfectly to their particular opinion yeah i mean it's kind of how the world works if you put

00:51:21.620 something of quality out enough times and something that's actually valuable that you've considered

00:51:25.560 it will reward you and the world will you know be able to feel its value so that's that's already

00:51:31.320 important but it's also why so many commentators on the right and the left who are really outrageous

00:51:34.980 and who do say inflammatory things usually only last about two years yeah yeah um and then it's and

00:51:40.540 then it's over it's because really all they have is outrage and they're not saying anything of

00:51:45.520 substance so once i've delivered that whatever it is outrageous comment fine you can keep doing it

00:51:51.820 again and again but it's almost like a drug here then you're going to need to get more and more

00:51:55.600 outrageous yeah and then that's and then they get into problems but also yeah i really feel that

00:52:01.440 people now are craving things that are more substantive constantin did this amazing series where he just

00:52:06.600 went out and talked to people at israel and palestine that was great protest and he asked

00:52:13.400 apolitical questions to protesters and they gave his response and it was fascinating to watch because

00:52:20.560 you're there you're there seeing this piece of content and part of you is going this is really

00:52:25.040 interesting and the other part of you is going i haven't seen something like this in 20 years yeah

00:52:31.080 no i had exactly the same thought with that i was even looking at like who shot it who i was just

00:52:36.020 fascinated with the whole crew everything everything about how you did it because it was completely

00:52:39.880 original and it was similar to the work that i've been doing um but no one's doing it because a people

00:52:45.580 are very lazy you can just do a show behind your computer screen b it's expensive but c it's it's it's

00:52:50.480 hard it's actually hard work it's it's scary you have to go into crowds it's a different it's a

00:52:54.420 difficult thing to do but the not when it does happen it does happen properly it will cut through

00:52:59.400 it will cut through culture completely yeah which is very important no and it's great and i i think 0.58

00:53:05.540 the the main thing is to i hear a lot of kind of disempowerment in the way you talk about social

00:53:12.660 media and i'm just always wary of having that approach because i think ultimately we're all

00:53:18.320 responsible for yes twitter can drive you to the extremes but doesn't have to like i played around

00:53:24.720 with that dunking on people thing and all of that for a while and then i was like no i don't like

00:53:29.020 doing this um and i'd much rather get a hundred thousand new subscribers by doing a speech that

00:53:35.300 goes viral than i would by dunking on india willoughby or jk rowling do you know what i mean

00:53:40.500 yeah but you're i think you're very unique in that you're also smarter than most people i would say

00:53:45.040 most people are kind of passive and they're not engaged in this all the time and they just want

00:53:48.560 to get their news for an hour before dinner time and then they need to go to bed they don't have the

00:53:53.120 time and capacity i think to think through the processes like that i think they're they're consumers of

00:53:56.880 of a news feed that determines their their their world opinion and they don't have the time and

00:54:01.800 capacity to go beyond that or to even think beyond that um which is why which is why everything is

00:54:06.680 becoming more radical it's why when you go to those protests and you speak to those protesters and you

00:54:10.920 say well what do you think about hamas and they have no idea that they're even you know they have

00:54:14.720 right-wing views because they've never seen that on their feeds and they become radicalized to the

00:54:19.100 left it's universal it's it's everywhere it's why christmas dinner parties are now basically ruined

00:54:24.800 because no one can talk to each other than other grandparents um and but the solution to it is that

00:54:30.440 kind of work and i think is the kind of work i've been doing for the last few years but for the media

00:54:34.500 to do it as well yeah and it's also as well look just because something is easy and it gets clicks and

00:54:40.560 it gets an instant hit doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do actually what is more prudent is to

00:54:47.760 take the longer route work work harder and actually you're gonna get what you truly want

00:54:54.260 what you really because most people okay once you get over the cheap dopamine hit of when something

00:55:00.160 goes viral if it's not something you're really proud about it's not a good feeling no it's why it was hard

00:55:06.580 back in the in the days with with a lot of right-wingers because i became that person and was just making

00:55:10.940 stuff every day for clicks that was outrageous sometimes stuff that goes way beyond what i would believe

00:55:15.500 and it's just it's just bullshit and it's why i didn't it's why i didn't stay in it for very long 0.68

00:55:20.600 as well it's why the people a lot of people i work with don't really exist now because they were doing

00:55:24.440 the same thing but um yeah it makes sense one of the final thing to explore i found interesting

00:55:32.480 particularly the contrast that i brought up with lawrence is i think the thing that happened even

00:55:37.000 though i as i said i think what you said was much worse than what he said actually

00:55:40.160 you apologize very quickly and we live in an age where so many people think that apologizing when

00:55:47.440 you said something wrong is the wrong thing to do as you people were telling you that afterwards

00:55:52.140 i actually think your example shows quite the opposite which is if you said something wrong which

00:55:58.540 we all do everybody the best thing to do if you said something wrong genuinely that you regret is to

00:56:05.100 apologize straight away yeah and and then to just be like look i apologize that's it and people will

00:56:10.720 move on uh a lot of the time yeah and i think it's why i think it surprised jk rollings why she replied

00:56:17.720 three times to that apology saying like we all make mistakes please leave cain alone like you know it's

00:56:22.620 fine like i really appreciate this apology and i replied and said i'm actually really in awe of this

00:56:26.580 response this is really really respectful and gracious and there were so many people saying like that we

00:56:31.120 need more of this on the internet because it doesn't happen anymore but there was also a lot of

00:56:34.560 people on the left who are then furious at me and the place i was worried for um for for even

00:56:40.500 apologizing or for even those people though yeah i know but it just shows how sad how sad that is

00:56:45.060 because it's i think it was genuinely a good moment like a nice moment yeah that morning at like 8am

00:56:50.040 um but yeah but you know you're always going to get the ideologues on either side yeah you know the

00:56:56.960 people go never apologize for anything you're like really yeah i'm um i'm sure you're great to hang

00:57:02.280 out with yeah and the thing is as well as for so many of these people to your point about how the

00:57:07.000 internet changes people i go never apologize is that is that what you teach your kids never apologize

00:57:12.200 for anything because i don't think you do and with many of these people i've seen them with their

00:57:16.580 children and they're good parents i don't think you'd be teaching your children always double down yeah

00:57:22.300 that's just raising a mini trump yeah just but it's how we're teaching ourselves to behave now i

00:57:28.640 think going on twitter i think that actually is the attitude it is to never apologize it is to never

00:57:32.660 back down and it's getting worse as we get more of a feed from from the internet i think that that's

00:57:36.820 the core problem with it and again not seeing the other side as human beings and never apologizing to

00:57:41.320 them because they're not people are they they should be you know thrown in prison that's what they think

00:57:44.980 well there we go uh we're about to go to locals and ask you questions from our supporters but before we do

00:57:50.760 the final question we always end with is what's the one thing that we're not talking about that

00:57:54.600 you think we should be before caitlin answers the final question make sure to head over to our locals

00:58:01.120 at the end of the interview the links in the description to see this working with the right there

00:58:07.140 was a lot more people i was surrounded with who really believed what they were doing and they really

00:58:11.580 had a purpose a lot of people on the left are driven by personality and money a lot more how do you

00:58:17.760 manage your propensity for extremes is his question well i don't think what i was involved in was

00:58:22.640 extreme well i think working with alex jones is extreme well the one thing we should be talking

00:58:28.620 about yeah but we're not i mean i guess i mean i i just my whole thing is i think we should just be

00:58:34.000 doing more actual investigating and thinking for ourselves and we should be funding more investigations

00:58:38.900 and actually looking at what's going on in the world and we should all just get off the internet for

00:58:42.660 a while that's just my end that's my end philosophy with all of it perfect head on over to

00:58:47.100 locals where we ask caitlin your questions stay on the internet what's the best way to get someone

00:58:53.600 to seriously consider arguments from the other side

TRIGGERnometry - April 03, 2024

My Trans Twitter Spat With J.K Rowling - Caolan Robertson

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