TRIGGERnometry - May 10, 2023


NBA Star： Forced Out For Speaking Up - Enes Kanter Freedom


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 4 minutes

Words per Minute

180.80128

Word Count

11,643

Sentence Count

955

Misogynist Sentences

9

Hate Speech Sentences

12


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.560 You criticize China, you criticize Nike,
00:00:03.440 you're not going to play basketball every game.
00:00:05.720 You pissed off the Turkish president,
00:00:07.520 but this wasn't enough, right?
00:00:08.920 Because you then had to piss off
00:00:10.160 the Chinese Communist Party as well.
00:00:11.600 Tell us about that.
00:00:12.680 And the more I studied, the more I realized,
00:00:15.760 wow, this is just crazy
00:00:18.440 and no one had the courage to talk about this issue.
00:00:22.160 So I was like, from now on,
00:00:23.640 I'm going to talk about every dictatorship.
00:00:25.880 Because I was seeing the hypocrisy, you know?
00:00:28.640 So BLM and everything was, for them, it was just PR.
00:00:33.760 I asked them one simple question.
00:00:35.120 I was like, put yourself in their shoes.
00:00:37.200 If your mother, if your sister,
00:00:39.120 if your daughter was in those concentration camps,
00:00:41.280 getting tortured and raped every day,
00:00:43.480 would you still pick money and business
00:00:45.880 over your morals, values, and principles?
00:00:48.600 They usually turn around and leave them.
00:00:50.280 Every organization, CEO, or company has been bought
00:00:56.760 by someone.
00:00:58.480 Bad author.
00:01:09.600 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry
00:01:12.240 on the Road from the USA.
00:01:14.320 I'm Francis Foster.
00:01:15.600 I'm Constantine Kishin.
00:01:16.800 And this is a show for you
00:01:18.320 if you want honest conversations
00:01:20.240 with fascinating people.
00:01:21.920 Our brilliant guest today is a former NBA star
00:01:24.400 and now activist.
00:01:25.520 And this formerly can to now Freedom.
00:01:27.680 Welcome to Trigonometry.
00:01:28.720 Thank you for having me.
00:01:29.520 Listen, man, thank you so much for coming.
00:01:31.280 You're fasting.
00:01:32.080 You just got off a plane.
00:01:33.120 So we're grateful for your time.
00:01:35.520 I appreciate that.
00:01:36.400 Thank you.
00:01:36.800 I was actually a big fan of yours
00:01:38.320 when you were playing in the NBA,
00:01:40.080 but a lot of our audience who are not that into sport
00:01:42.880 may not know who you are.
00:01:44.240 So tell us your story.
00:01:45.600 How, how, what's your journey through life?
00:01:47.760 You, you're born in Turkey?
00:01:49.520 I actually born in Switzerland.
00:01:50.960 You're born in Switzerland.
00:01:51.920 Right.
00:01:52.160 I won't say anything else.
00:01:53.520 You tell us the story.
00:01:54.800 So my father is a scientist
00:01:56.400 and he was doing his master in Switzerland
00:01:58.720 and that's where I born.
00:02:00.320 And, you know, I literally stayed there for maybe nine months.
00:02:04.400 I wanted to, I wish I stayed there longer
00:02:06.320 so I could just speak another language,
00:02:07.920 but came to Turkey.
00:02:09.840 I grew up in east side of a city called Van.
00:02:13.360 I don't know if you guys ever heard that before or not.
00:02:15.040 It's a beautiful, beautiful town, beautiful city.
00:02:17.280 You know, my whole life actually,
00:02:20.000 when I was growing up, I wanted to be a soccer player.
00:02:22.400 Because I mean, it's, it's Europe.
00:02:24.240 It's the number one sport in my country.
00:02:26.560 So I was like, you know what?
00:02:27.520 Let me just be a soccer player.
00:02:28.560 But I was too tall, too slow for it, you know?
00:02:32.000 So they would just keep making me a goalie.
00:02:33.600 So I was like, you know what?
00:02:34.480 I'm just gonna, I'm done.
00:02:36.400 I'm done with this sport.
00:02:37.520 And a lot of my friends were like, you know,
00:02:39.680 you're like the tallest one in a school.
00:02:41.600 Why don't you just start playing basketball?
00:02:43.120 And actually, my family did not want me to play basketball.
00:02:47.840 They were all about education.
00:02:50.000 I remember, you know, my, I gave a promise to my dad.
00:02:52.640 I was like, he was like, listen, son,
00:02:54.480 I want you to be a good student before being a good basketball player.
00:02:57.040 So I want you to focus on school first,
00:02:59.760 because it's not guaranteed that you're gonna make it.
00:03:03.200 You know, there are millions of kids out there trying to make it to MBA.
00:03:06.960 So it's not a promise that you're gonna make it.
00:03:09.200 So focus on basketball and, by the same time, school.
00:03:13.920 But so that was the biggest reason I came to America as a teenager.
00:03:18.160 So I could just go to school and play basketball at the same time.
00:03:20.720 Mm-hmm.
00:03:21.920 And so you ended up, you ended up coming here.
00:03:24.000 Mm-hmm.
00:03:25.280 And the, tell us like what, how did, were you just naturally talented?
00:03:30.720 Or did you have to work your butt off to get in the NBA?
00:03:33.200 Both.
00:03:33.680 Both, you have to.
00:03:34.480 I mean, yeah, I want to, well, in, so I'm sure you guys know
00:03:38.800 Fenerbahce.
00:03:39.760 Yes, absolutely.
00:03:40.160 Yes, it was one of the biggest, you know, the club team in Turkey.
00:03:43.360 So I was playing for them.
00:03:44.960 But when I was 16, I was literally playing against, you know,
00:03:48.560 those guys who are like 30, 35s, you know?
00:03:52.400 So in Turkey, there's no schools, you know, you only go to club teams
00:03:56.800 and you focus on, you know, just making your team better.
00:04:00.560 It doesn't matter.
00:04:01.200 You're 16, you're 18, you're 20.
00:04:03.040 If you're good enough, then you can play with guys who are 30, 35s, you know?
00:04:07.680 So that made me a tougher player.
00:04:10.640 But coming here, in high school, I was literally going against kids who are like,
00:04:17.280 you know, we were just, we're kids.
00:04:20.160 Yeah.
00:04:20.480 Literally kids.
00:04:21.120 Yeah.
00:04:21.840 So playing against these grown men and playing against kids, I was like, you know what?
00:04:26.640 This is just too easy.
00:04:28.880 So in high school, I was one of the best players in the nation.
00:04:32.000 And then I got, you know, I committed and signed with the University of Kentucky.
00:04:36.960 I believe the best basketball program in the nation.
00:04:41.280 I went there for one year.
00:04:42.720 Then I got drafted by Utah Jazz.
00:04:44.640 Wow.
00:04:45.600 So you got drafted by the Utah Jazz.
00:04:47.440 And what was it like playing NBA?
00:04:50.800 You know, so my first regular season game was against Lakers, against Kobe Bryant at Steppler Center.
00:04:59.040 Oh, that's awesome, man.
00:05:01.040 So I grew up as a Lakers fan.
00:05:02.400 Yeah.
00:05:02.800 Right.
00:05:03.040 So playing against Kobe for the first time ever.
00:05:06.480 Yeah.
00:05:06.960 For no Steppler Center.
00:05:08.080 Yeah.
00:05:08.480 20,000 people.
00:05:09.520 So I was like, I remember coach called my name.
00:05:12.960 I'm sitting on the bench and I'm walking right in the game.
00:05:17.360 I'm like, my knees are shaking.
00:05:20.080 I'm getting thirsty.
00:05:21.120 My knees are shaking.
00:05:22.160 I'm like, what's going on?
00:05:25.040 One of my teammates missed a shot.
00:05:27.280 I got the offensive rebound and I was about to finish.
00:05:29.600 They found me.
00:05:30.560 Yeah.
00:05:31.120 So I'm in the free draw line.
00:05:32.960 And I see Paul Gasol.
00:05:34.960 I see Andrew Bynum.
00:05:39.040 Yeah.
00:05:39.440 And I see Kobe was waiting for me to shoot the free throw.
00:05:42.560 Oh, wow.
00:05:43.120 These are like three legendary players.
00:05:45.120 Exactly.
00:05:45.520 Yeah.
00:05:46.000 So, and there are 20,000 people are booing me.
00:05:51.040 I was like, oh my God.
00:05:52.400 So I like, I spin the ball.
00:05:55.040 I'm taking a couple of dribbles.
00:05:56.880 I'm going to shoot.
00:05:58.560 My hands, I can feel, I can see that my hands are shaking.
00:06:01.760 I took a shot.
00:06:03.520 I missed.
00:06:04.640 And everybody was like, yay, whatever.
00:06:07.600 And I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know if I can do this.
00:06:10.480 So the second shot, I'm like, okay.
00:06:13.520 I took the shot.
00:06:14.480 I made it.
00:06:15.120 I was like, this is going to be my life from now.
00:06:16.960 So I better get used to it.
00:06:18.320 Yeah.
00:06:18.720 So at that moment, I'm like, just start playing.
00:06:21.680 And that game, we end up losing by 30 points.
00:06:25.520 Kobe ended up scoring 40 points.
00:06:27.280 And it was a very tough game for us.
00:06:29.440 So it was like a, it was my welcome back to the league moment.
00:06:33.120 Yeah.
00:06:33.600 Welcome back, welcome to the league moment.
00:06:36.320 So, you know, after that, I just like, you know, just practice hard and try to do my best to just
00:06:43.280 be one of those players.
00:06:44.640 And Enes, what does it take to become a professional athlete, but more specifically an NBA athlete?
00:06:51.680 Do you need a special mindset?
00:06:53.920 You know, everybody obviously talking about the mindset and the practice.
00:06:57.920 I feel like to all the kids actually are asking me this, if you want to become a basketball player,
00:07:02.560 you have to live like an NBA player, because not only practicing two, three, it's just not enough.
00:07:08.880 You have to eat well, sleep well, go to sleep early, be disciplined, you have to be dedicated.
00:07:16.560 And I think the mental toughness is the most important part if you're playing basketball,
00:07:21.600 especially NBA.
00:07:22.960 Because now with all the social media and Twitter and Instagram, I mean, you miss one important shot.
00:07:32.080 Like the whole city, whole state are just like, is destroying you.
00:07:37.920 I remember in some of the playoff games, right?
00:07:41.200 I mean, you cannot play good every game.
00:07:44.560 So I remember in some of the playoff games, I mean, if I had a bad game, I was like,
00:07:51.760 they didn't want to even go out to a restaurant or a mall or to walk around.
00:07:56.320 I was just like very worried about what the fans will say, you know?
00:08:01.440 Yeah.
00:08:02.080 So to me, it was always like, okay, I got to have a good game or they just going to just destroy me in the media.
00:08:10.080 The fans are going to say the craziest things and all my friends and family and everyone going to read it.
00:08:15.760 So it was like, I was like, it was just taking a lot of, it was just taking a lot out of me.
00:08:23.440 It sounds like a lot of pressure, man.
00:08:24.880 Oh my God.
00:08:25.440 Yeah.
00:08:25.760 A lot of pressure because if there was no media, if there was no this like sports writers, whatever, then like you're good.
00:08:35.280 But their job is literally to just wait for you to make a mistake so they can put that mistake everywhere in the world.
00:08:44.000 Like, and obviously once the sports writer writes anything about it, then the national media takes it and everyone talks about it.
00:08:51.840 That's why it's like, it's so mentally, it's the toughest.
00:08:56.640 20% is, I always say like 20% of it is just physical and 80% mental because physical part, you can literally just go, go into the gym and work out for two hours and lift.
00:09:07.480 And after the practice, you can get some extra shots and you're good, you know, so the physical part is easy, but the mental part is the toughest part.
00:09:16.140 And how did you deal with that?
00:09:17.260 Because it's something that a lot of people we talk to who are not in the sports world, you know, you, you become a public commentator, you write a book or whatever, and you find yourself in a position where people have an opinion about you that you can't control.
00:09:30.120 Right.
00:09:30.520 You know, it's, it was just so weird because like, you cannot have any bad days because those fans don't know what you're going through.
00:09:39.080 You might have a family problem.
00:09:40.880 You might, you know, maybe you, maybe you broke up with your girlfriend or you were having a problem at home.
00:09:46.800 Maybe you're getting divorced or maybe you're about to have a kid.
00:09:50.260 So you're not every day your mind is with basketball, but the fans see that and they're like, we are paying thousands of dollars to watch you.
00:10:00.520 So we are like, it was like a circus, you know, it was literally like a circus and we cannot have any bad days.
00:10:09.780 So how you come, I think the one thing that we always did was just every after game, we're just sitting down in a locker room.
00:10:18.020 And if someone had a bad day, if someone missed like a very important shot, if, if someone doesn't feel like themselves, we're sitting down in a locker room and say, okay, we are family.
00:10:31.540 We, whatever is, whatever is happening, let's talk in a locker room and whatever happens in a locker room stays in a locker room.
00:10:37.840 You know, maybe we were going to fight, maybe we were going to talk, maybe we were going to discuss this, that, but it's not going to come out of this locker room.
00:10:47.380 So that made all of us feel so much better.
00:10:52.060 I'm like, okay, like, you know, some people, I missed the game winning shot.
00:10:56.960 The whole city might hate me, you know, the whole media is going to destroy me tomorrow morning, but at least I have my teammates back.
00:11:06.140 You know, and we're, we always have this strategy.
00:11:10.520 If one of those media out there will come after us, we're going to protect each other.
00:11:15.160 Yeah.
00:11:15.540 You know, because media, media allows drama.
00:11:18.220 So they're going to be like, well, this player didn't pass you the ball.
00:11:21.720 You could have just dunked the ball.
00:11:23.540 Are you mad at him?
00:11:25.360 And if you say anything that my.
00:11:29.880 And inside you are mad at him, right?
00:11:31.660 Inside, of course.
00:11:33.720 I'm going to punch him in the face.
00:11:35.060 You're going to win the game.
00:11:36.960 But if you cannot, even if you're like, you're like, maybe you're like, even if you roll your eyes, I promise you, they take a screenshot of that.
00:11:44.340 Right.
00:11:44.900 And the next day, oh, Enes doesn't like his teammates.
00:11:47.720 So that's why athletes, when they get asked questions by the media, it's always the same, you know, oh, I love my teammates.
00:11:53.880 We just need to work hard and we'll get the next one.
00:11:56.300 But that's not what we talk in a locker room.
00:11:58.380 Obviously, in a locker room, you're like, dude, I was open.
00:12:00.920 Why didn't you pass me the ball?
00:12:02.340 Right.
00:12:02.820 Or like, what's going on?
00:12:04.360 Do we have a problem?
00:12:05.380 Yeah.
00:12:05.600 So we were trying to solve every problem in a locker room.
00:12:08.840 And when we got out of this locker room, we're all good.
00:12:11.940 You know.
00:12:12.540 There's the most famous and the best rugby union team in the world are New Zealand All Blacks.
00:12:18.540 And they have a policy called the No Dickhead Policy.
00:12:21.740 That's literally the name of it.
00:12:23.220 Interesting.
00:12:23.540 And what they say is, it doesn't matter how talented you are.
00:12:27.100 It doesn't matter how good a rugby player you are.
00:12:28.960 If you are a dickhead, you're not going to play for the All Blacks.
00:12:32.260 I love it.
00:12:33.360 You know, actually, I had a teammate, Stephen Adams.
00:12:35.680 Do you know Stephen Adams?
00:12:36.360 Stephen Adams from New Zealand.
00:12:37.580 Yeah.
00:12:37.860 Great player.
00:12:39.320 One of the games, I had a really good game.
00:12:42.880 And he said, he's going to bring me a gift.
00:12:45.400 So the next game, he brought me this All Black jersey.
00:12:49.780 Yeah.
00:12:50.080 I can't remember who he was.
00:12:51.280 But I was like, oh, cool.
00:12:52.620 I posted it and so many people were just retweeting it and liking it and saying, we didn't know
00:12:58.120 you're a fan, whatever.
00:12:59.920 But no, I had a teammate like that, Stephen Adams.
00:13:03.600 And we've talked about, you know, the pressure.
00:13:07.340 But what's probably even more difficult, Ennis, is how do you deal with success?
00:13:11.360 How do you deal from going from a regular background to all of a sudden being a young kid who is
00:13:17.060 surrounded by wealth, adulation, fame, women?
00:13:21.300 I mean, if that had happened to me when I was 20, I'd be in rehab now.
00:13:24.960 19.
00:13:25.500 19.
00:13:26.520 Even worse, to your teenager.
00:13:28.540 I mean, so that's why NBA have this like programs, it's called like Rookie Transition
00:13:33.560 Program, you know.
00:13:35.260 So whenever you enter the league, you go to these programs and the older or retired players
00:13:42.660 comes and gives you their experience of what happened throughout their career.
00:13:47.160 And some of the things that you hear is just unbelievable.
00:13:50.340 Because think about us, you're 19 years old.
00:13:52.700 You're just getting drafted.
00:13:54.000 The whole world is talking about you.
00:13:56.060 They're giving you millions of dollars.
00:13:58.540 And everywhere you go, you don't have to pay for anything.
00:14:01.320 You eat free food.
00:14:02.380 You shop free.
00:14:04.040 You do everything for free, you know.
00:14:05.920 And you literally become a huge celebrity.
00:14:08.500 And now with all the social media and everything, you have a huge influence and you can inspire
00:14:13.020 so many people.
00:14:14.160 But sometimes like players don't know what to do with all this fame, all this money, you
00:14:20.860 know.
00:14:21.040 So that's why they go to clubs and they go to bars and they find 10, 20 girlfriends and
00:14:28.820 it just, boom.
00:14:30.000 Did you do any of that?
00:14:31.180 No.
00:14:31.620 Because I had a really good team around me.
00:14:33.960 Really good team around me.
00:14:34.980 And they always protected me.
00:14:36.900 You know, because, I mean, coming to America, my family raised me really well.
00:14:42.460 And they were like, you know, I'm obviously, because of my faith, because I'm a Muslim,
00:14:47.180 I'm not allowed to drink.
00:14:48.320 I'm not allowed to really go out.
00:14:49.760 I'm not allowed to do certain things that my teammates were doing, you know.
00:14:54.020 So that really protected me.
00:14:55.700 But other than that, I'm, you know, I had a, I think average NBA player's career is four
00:15:01.400 years.
00:15:01.960 Wow.
00:15:02.380 Yeah.
00:15:02.880 Because they come into the league, boom, clubs, girls, drinks, this and that, and they're
00:15:07.680 gone.
00:15:08.860 Wow.
00:15:09.680 Yeah.
00:15:09.880 So, it was your faith that kept you on the straight and narrow.
00:15:14.780 But, I guess the question is as well, it's just, there must have been a part of you that
00:15:21.740 was tempted.
00:15:22.740 There must have been a part of you where you just thought to yourself, you know, look,
00:15:28.960 we're all men, we're all human.
00:15:30.260 There must have been a couple of ladies where you're like, I've worked really hard this
00:15:34.180 week.
00:15:34.400 It is so crazy because everywhere we go, they were waiting for us.
00:15:38.160 We go to a hotel, they're waiting at the lobby.
00:15:40.700 We go to a game, they're waiting.
00:15:42.880 We go to a restaurant, we go to a mall.
00:15:45.360 They know our schedule, obviously.
00:15:47.160 The schedule was out before the season.
00:15:49.680 So, every city we go, for somehow, they already know the hotel we're staying.
00:15:57.140 So, it's like, you go down to the lobby and there are like hundreds of them.
00:16:04.460 Literally, a little hundreds of them.
00:16:05.800 I feel your pain, Ennis.
00:16:07.160 Yeah.
00:16:08.260 What a terrible one.
00:16:09.100 This was before Instagram.
00:16:10.640 Right.
00:16:11.180 Once the Instagram came, so they already know our schedule, you know.
00:16:14.680 So, before we go to the cities, they were already DMing us.
00:16:18.860 I say, hey, you know, you're coming to our city, let's hang out.
00:16:23.620 And it was literally like a menu.
00:16:25.580 You just literally scroll it down.
00:16:27.080 Okay.
00:16:27.780 I did not do this.
00:16:28.980 I'm just saying.
00:16:29.720 Yeah, of course.
00:16:30.360 People who did it.
00:16:31.340 It was like a menu.
00:16:32.020 You just go down.
00:16:32.640 You're like, hmm, I want a blonde today.
00:16:34.640 I want a brunette today.
00:16:35.640 I want this.
00:16:36.300 I want that.
00:16:36.760 You could literally just pick or one, two, maybe more, you know.
00:16:40.500 So, that's why a lot of the players were just losing focus because of all that.
00:16:46.840 You know, they thought that this is going to last forever, you know.
00:16:50.900 But they were just going out and partying all night and coming to the game the next day.
00:16:57.880 They can't even walk because they're hangover from last night, you know.
00:17:03.020 I had a lot of teammates.
00:17:04.420 I'm like, we had a game.
00:17:06.120 So, we usually go to the city the night before and then in the morning we have practice and then at night we play basketball.
00:17:13.860 We play the game.
00:17:15.340 I had a lot of teammates.
00:17:16.820 Even in the morning, before the practice, they were like, they could hardly walk.
00:17:22.040 So, I'm like, how are you going to go out there and play basketball?
00:17:25.700 Compete against these guys like Kobe, LeBron, or Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Gasol.
00:17:33.320 And they're like, well, I'll be fine.
00:17:35.020 I'll take a nap.
00:17:36.620 He would end up getting hurt because his body was just not ready for that level.
00:17:41.920 And also, it makes it more challenging, particularly if you come, like a lot of these guys, from very poor backgrounds.
00:17:47.720 Yes.
00:17:48.240 Where you have nothing.
00:17:49.500 And then it's not like you go into business and gradually you build yourself up and you're starting to make.
00:17:54.300 It's zero to 100 miles an hour.
00:17:56.760 That's why, you know, like you ask so many people, a lot of the NBA players goes broke right after their career.
00:18:02.880 Because, you know, when you come from like, you know, poor families and your first contract is like $20 million, what do you want to do?
00:18:12.380 You want to show off, right?
00:18:13.560 So, you want to buy your friend a car.
00:18:15.800 You want to buy your other friend a house.
00:18:18.020 You want to buy another friend a car.
00:18:20.000 And these are like really expensive cars and homes.
00:18:23.260 So, you really want to, you're really trying to take care of your whole street or your whole neighborhood, you know?
00:18:28.800 And you go out there and buy this like $100,000 or jerries or watches and stuff, which you don't even need, you know?
00:18:37.520 So, they always think that, okay, money's going to come forever.
00:18:42.760 But no, they only, when you get hurt, you're done, you know?
00:18:47.040 If you don't take care of yourself, if you have like an injury prone, then the players are, the teams are not going to sign you.
00:18:55.680 What was the big thing that you bought?
00:18:57.400 So, with my first, with my first contract, I literally took my teammates to a Pizza Hut.
00:19:07.220 Literally, to a Pizza Hut.
00:19:09.980 And we had a blast.
00:19:11.620 We had so much fun.
00:19:13.220 And it was like all you can eat too.
00:19:14.900 So, we were just like killing it, you know?
00:19:17.880 But I'm trying to think.
00:19:18.880 I really didn't buy anything like…
00:19:21.140 House, car, nothing?
00:19:22.600 Watch?
00:19:22.860 Nothing.
00:19:23.580 Really?
00:19:23.920 Nothing.
00:19:24.440 As you see, I'm a very simple, very simple person.
00:19:26.960 I mean, I was like, the one thing I've always done, I was just donating a lot of money to some of the families out there, especially in Turkey.
00:19:35.780 Because I'm sure you guys know the situation over there.
00:19:38.340 Yeah.
00:19:38.600 Well, we'll talk about it.
00:19:39.500 We'll talk about it.
00:19:40.160 But other than that, I didn't really buy anything crazy.
00:19:43.920 One of the questions that has always interested me about when you talk to elite athletes is, obviously, everybody who plays the NBA is absolutely exceptional as an athlete.
00:19:55.820 But there is this kind of little strata of the people at the top.
00:20:00.280 And it doesn't matter whether it's football, like Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, or it's people like Kobe Bryant.
00:20:06.100 Now, that little sliver of people at the top, what makes them so special that even as professional athletes are head and shoulders above every single other person?
00:20:16.120 But what makes them so special, I believe, is, I mean, we are all athletes.
00:20:21.380 We know how to train our body.
00:20:23.260 You know?
00:20:23.520 We know what to do when we go in the gym, when we work out.
00:20:28.140 We know our weaknesses.
00:20:29.740 We know our strengths.
00:20:32.960 You know, we know how to eat well, sleep well.
00:20:36.060 I mean, we have all the resources.
00:20:37.900 I think the mindset.
00:20:39.660 You know, I had so many teammates like, you know, like Damian Lillard, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Jason Tatum.
00:20:46.660 These players were the ones that always, like, come into the gym first and leave and last.
00:20:52.020 And I think what makes them so special is, you know, they were not only just so amazing individually, but they make themselves better and they make everybody else better around them.
00:21:03.060 That's what makes them really special.
00:21:05.060 And I think being a good leader is really important in this league.
00:21:09.160 You know, you can average 20, 25 points, but if you're not winning any games, if you're not helping your teammates, if you're not affecting the game, you know, they're just nothing.
00:21:19.800 They're just like empty, empty stats.
00:21:22.200 We call it empty stats, you know.
00:21:24.380 But if you're, instead of you're 25, you're scoring 20 points, but you're making your teammates score 10, 15 points and now they're happy.
00:21:32.840 They want to play.
00:21:33.680 They want to win games, you know.
00:21:35.000 So that's what separates from great players and good players.
00:21:40.760 And you play a position where people giving you the ball is important, like you need people, the little guys to give you the assist.
00:21:47.600 So that's coming from that.
00:21:49.380 Well, before we move on to the more, your activism and other things, best player you ever play with?
00:21:56.340 Ooh, that's a tough one.
00:21:58.080 I might go with Russell Westbrook.
00:22:00.640 Really?
00:22:01.160 Yeah.
00:22:01.780 I'm going to pick him over.
00:22:05.700 Because when I play with him, I mean, the season that I play with him, he averaged triple-double.
00:22:12.080 He got the MVP and he was the best player in the league, you know.
00:22:16.280 And now, right now, people give him so much.
00:22:20.780 People right now, I just really like talk badly about him because of his character or whatever.
00:22:26.060 But I think he was one of the best team that I had.
00:22:28.940 That's so interesting.
00:22:30.060 Can I push back just as a casual basketball fan?
00:22:33.180 Because I always think when I look at Russell Westbrook is that individually he's a great player.
00:22:37.880 But I always thought the reason he's not won anything is that his style, it's not about his temperament and personality.
00:22:44.440 His style is not necessarily always making the team better.
00:22:48.300 But you say the opposite.
00:22:49.260 Well, I mean, I'm totally saying the opposite because he actually, I mean, you…
00:22:52.940 And Russell, please don't hurt me.
00:22:54.120 I'm a lot smaller than you.
00:22:54.960 To understand Russell, you have to play with Russell, you know.
00:22:59.480 That's when you know how good of a teammate he is on and off the court.
00:23:03.140 That's how you know how good of a leader he is and how good of a basketball player he is, you know.
00:23:09.820 So a lot of people give him a lot of bad stuff.
00:23:15.500 So why do you think he hasn't been able to win the chip?
00:23:17.980 I mean, there are a lot of great players out there that did not win any championship.
00:23:23.600 Like Karl Malone, Chuck, trying to think who else.
00:23:30.080 There are, I mean, many other players that did not win a championship, you know.
00:23:34.020 So, yeah.
00:23:36.440 All right.
00:23:37.100 And who's the best player that you played against?
00:23:39.320 Who was the guy that when you saw, you were just going to think to yourself, oh, not this guy, not him again, please?
00:23:48.280 I think I might, I think Kobe Bryant.
00:23:51.080 Really?
00:23:51.540 You came in the league when?
00:23:53.000 Oh, 2011.
00:23:54.020 So he was already maybe past his prime a little bit by that point.
00:23:57.840 I mean, he was still killing it.
00:23:58.820 He was still killing it.
00:23:59.360 Oh, yeah, of course.
00:23:59.600 Yeah, he was killing it, obviously.
00:24:01.220 Yeah.
00:24:01.640 But I might say, you know, I mean, Kevin, Kevin Bryant I played against, Stephen Curry I played against, Dirk I played against.
00:24:10.260 But I'm trying to think.
00:24:11.900 I think I'll say Kobe.
00:24:13.160 What was so special about him?
00:24:15.400 What made him so different?
00:24:17.240 He just, I think his mentality, you know, everyone talks about the mama mentality.
00:24:23.020 But I think his mentality was just on a different level.
00:24:27.060 You know, he was, like I said again, he was always first one in the gym.
00:24:30.580 And he was just, you know, he hates losing.
00:24:33.820 Some people, some players love winning.
00:24:35.920 Yeah.
00:24:36.120 But he hates losing.
00:24:36.920 There's a big difference.
00:24:38.360 When I get drafted, one of the scouts asked me, do you love winning or do you hate losing?
00:24:42.500 I was like, I hate losing.
00:24:43.980 I was like, that.
00:24:45.320 You know, but.
00:24:46.380 That's the right mentality if you want to be super successful.
00:24:48.860 Yeah.
00:24:49.100 So, but he did not.
00:24:50.660 His focus was just on a different level.
00:24:52.780 Very professional.
00:24:54.420 Unbelievable guy.
00:24:55.400 And you also, it's, I see it in sport a lot, particularly soccer.
00:24:59.380 There are some players, Cristiano Ronaldo is the ultimate example of this.
00:25:02.580 Exactly.
00:25:03.040 Who have a killer instinct.
00:25:04.640 He's a killer.
00:25:05.480 No, we, so when I was playing for Oklahoma City Thunder, we actually went to Real Madrid
00:25:09.860 and we watched him play and we actually get to meet him.
00:25:12.860 I got to meet him right after the game.
00:25:14.580 And, you know, you always, you always see him on social media or TV, how he's like ripped
00:25:20.320 and stuff.
00:25:20.740 Yeah.
00:25:21.360 I promise we have a picture.
00:25:22.960 He was like, not even quarter of our size.
00:25:25.860 I'm like, this is the guy that is on TV, just all ripped and stuff.
00:25:31.480 Yeah.
00:25:31.680 He was just like, this is like very skinny compared to us.
00:25:34.840 He was very, very, very small.
00:25:36.660 Yeah.
00:25:36.800 Well, basketball players carry a lot more muscle than footballers because you don't run
00:25:40.560 as much.
00:25:41.260 Well, Enes, listen, one of the things I really enjoyed so far in our conversation is when
00:25:47.020 you talk about basketball, you light up.
00:25:49.600 It's something, I can tell it's something you enjoyed, you enjoyed, right?
00:25:53.760 And yet, as we sit here, you're not an NBA player and you don't even have the same name
00:26:00.100 that you had, right?
00:26:01.360 Because you made some changes and you spoke up about things that you cared about and you've
00:26:05.640 paid the price, right?
00:26:07.380 Tell us about that.
00:26:08.980 Well, I mean, my, actually my activism started when I was a kid.
00:26:13.200 So, in Turkey, I'm not sure how much you guys know the Turkish politics, whatever.
00:26:17.280 So, if you're in Turkey, if you're a politician, if you want to be elected again, you do two
00:26:22.880 things.
00:26:23.760 You attack America and you attack Israel.
00:26:27.160 Just because of the base is so uneducated, right?
00:26:31.400 They're like, wow, look at our leader.
00:26:33.480 He's standing strong against America.
00:26:36.100 He's standing tall against Israel.
00:26:37.800 So, let's vote for him.
00:26:40.080 So, that was the situation when I was growing up.
00:26:42.320 So, on TV, newspaper, there was just propaganda all day.
00:26:48.300 I was nine years old.
00:26:50.180 I went downstairs to play with my friends.
00:26:52.420 And I remember my friends, they're not even teenagers, my little friends were burning flags.
00:27:00.720 They were burning American flags.
00:27:02.160 They were burning Israeli flags.
00:27:04.000 And I asked them, guys, what are you doing?
00:27:06.820 They said, well, that's what we've seen on TV.
00:27:08.840 They're evil.
00:27:09.460 They're bad.
00:27:10.000 They're terrible.
00:27:10.520 So, they gave me a flag to burn it.
00:27:13.300 I took the flag.
00:27:14.520 I took the lighter.
00:27:16.140 I'm looking at it.
00:27:17.680 I'm like, this is not the right way to do it.
00:27:21.180 So, I threw it down.
00:27:22.180 I ran upstairs to my mom.
00:27:23.880 I was like, mom, my friends are telling me to hate America.
00:27:27.400 They're telling me to hate Israel.
00:27:28.840 They're telling me to hate Jewish people.
00:27:30.360 They're telling me to hate Christians.
00:27:31.220 They're telling me to hate Americans.
00:27:31.780 What do I do?
00:27:32.360 My mom said, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but do not hate anyone before you meet them.
00:27:39.780 And I'm nine years old.
00:27:41.320 So, that day, I gave a promise.
00:27:43.060 I'm not going to hate anyone.
00:27:45.660 So, when I was 17 years old, right, my dad was seeing the environment that I was growing up in.
00:27:51.980 They're like, this is just too toxic.
00:27:53.740 Get out of here.
00:27:54.300 So, they wanted me to play basketball and get my education at the same time.
00:28:00.020 So, they said, okay, it's time for you to go to America.
00:28:02.760 So, I remember coming here for the first time.
00:28:05.320 My plane was about to land.
00:28:07.700 I'm so excited, but at the same time, I'm so nervous because I just don't know what to expect.
00:28:13.380 Because the last 17 years, the environment I live in was just very toxic.
00:28:17.840 Because you ask, if you have any friends in Middle East, you ask them, you know, in some of the schools, in some of the classes in Middle East, they have flags.
00:28:27.460 They have American flags and they have Israeli flags.
00:28:29.680 And if you are a student, if you're a little kid, if you don't step on those flags, you're not allowed to attend the class.
00:28:35.220 Wow.
00:28:35.440 Think about it.
00:28:36.440 And I am growing up in an environment like that.
00:28:38.620 So, I came to America for the first time.
00:28:41.800 I'm so, like, shocked.
00:28:44.480 I'm just looking around and trying to, like, get to know people and stuff.
00:28:50.200 But I remember my teammates had a conversation with me for the first time.
00:28:55.440 I left the locker room.
00:28:57.720 And I just didn't know what they were trying to do.
00:29:00.220 And they were so nice.
00:29:01.340 They were like, hey, let's take you to a mosque.
00:29:03.960 Let's take you to go get some halal food and stuff.
00:29:07.640 I was like, what are they trying to do?
00:29:09.900 I remember going to my first Shabbat dinner.
00:29:13.900 It was very interesting because I didn't know she was Jewish or I don't think I would even be friends with her in the beginning.
00:29:24.120 So, then I remember the promise that I gave to my mom.
00:29:26.860 I was like, okay, I'm coming.
00:29:28.760 Before I went to her house to have a Shabbat dinner with her family, I called my Turkish friend who lives in America.
00:29:35.260 I was like, if you don't hear from me for the next two hours, call the police.
00:29:41.820 Because I just don't know.
00:29:43.780 Anyway, I took a chance.
00:29:45.500 I went there.
00:29:46.180 It was an amazing, amazing dinner.
00:29:49.160 I mean, because I don't know how much you guys know, but, like, they're so close to our religion, our culture.
00:29:55.140 The food is almost, like, the same.
00:29:56.680 So, it was an unbelievable experience.
00:29:59.220 When I was going back to my hotel, I started to tear up because I was thinking there are millions of kids in the Middle East right now who's growing up anti-Semitic, anti-West, anti-American, anti-Christian just because of those hate speeches coming from these politicians.
00:30:18.680 So, I was like, we got to change it, you know.
00:30:21.900 And then after that, I promised myself, I was like, whatever it takes, I'm going to stand for what's right.
00:30:27.480 And how did that then manifest it in your NBA career?
00:30:30.520 Because when I was watching the NBA, as I do, you know, you were a great player.
00:30:35.200 You played for a number of teams.
00:30:37.260 I saw you play in New York and Oklahoma and, you know, a bunch of Portland as well.
00:30:41.560 You mentioned Damien Lillard.
00:30:42.560 But I never really heard anything at the time.
00:30:45.520 And that's maybe because I wasn't paying enough attention.
00:30:47.840 But it seemed like there was a particular couple of moments, maybe, that really changed the trajectory of your life and your career.
00:30:55.440 So, there was a corruption scandal happened in Turkey back in 2013.
00:31:00.960 And that was the first time I said something about it because President Erdogan and his family members were involved in it.
00:31:07.740 And so, after the corruption scandal, I said something.
00:31:11.320 I literally put a very simple tweet out there.
00:31:15.720 Because of the NBA platform, it became a conversation in the United States and in Turkey.
00:31:24.080 I'm waiting for this.
00:31:25.140 Keep going.
00:31:26.120 It's all good.
00:31:26.660 It's all good.
00:31:27.260 We're in New York, man.
00:31:28.280 Okay.
00:31:28.800 So, I was like, even one simple tweet can affect this much from now.
00:31:32.240 And I'm going to start paying attention about what's going on in my country more and more.
00:31:35.500 So, I started to study.
00:31:36.640 I remember my teammates were going out to parties, clubs, and whatever.
00:31:40.020 And I was going back to my house.
00:31:41.520 I was studying about what's going on between Middle East, what's going on in the Middle East, what's going on between America and Turkey and stuff.
00:31:49.280 So, the more I studied, the more I started to talk about these problems.
00:31:53.780 And obviously, every time I told you, it was becoming a conversation.
00:31:57.420 And Turkish government hated that.
00:31:58.800 I mean, first, my dad was a scientist.
00:32:01.720 He got fired from his job.
00:32:03.320 My sister went to medical school for six years, and she still cannot find a job.
00:32:07.220 My little brother was playing basketball.
00:32:09.340 He wanted to be like his big brother, play in the NBA.
00:32:11.540 But he was getting kicked out on every team because of the same last name.
00:32:14.860 So, they were getting affected so much, they had to put a statement out there and said, we are disowning NS.
00:32:19.720 Actually, the letter is still out on the internet.
00:32:22.460 You guys can read it if you want.
00:32:24.580 After that letter, I remember going to a practice.
00:32:28.140 It was definitely one of the toughest days in my life, right?
00:32:31.500 So, then, Turkish government didn't believe that.
00:32:34.240 They sent police to my house in Turkey, and they raided the whole house, and they took every electronics away.
00:32:39.420 Phones, computers, laptops, iPads, because they wanted to see if I am still in contact with my family or not.
00:32:45.960 So, after the radar, they couldn't find no evidence, but they still took my dad in jail for a while.
00:32:51.480 But we put so much pressure from here, with the politicians, the media, with some of the celebrities, to Turkey.
00:32:57.240 They had to let him go.
00:32:58.620 And then, you know, they revoked my passport.
00:33:01.120 They put my name on Interpol list.
00:33:02.700 They put a bounty on my head, and, you know, they send death threats every week now and stuff.
00:33:09.080 I have 12 threats warning for me right now in less than nine years.
00:33:13.700 Just for speaking.
00:33:14.940 Just.
00:33:15.200 And, you know, the crazy thing is, whenever I, like, have a conversation with some of them, whenever I give an interview, I always say, look at my, every interview that I have given so far.
00:33:26.400 Look at every op-ed.
00:33:27.860 Look at everything I have write or tweet so far.
00:33:30.180 I never talk about politics.
00:33:32.820 I keep it pure human rights, and I talk about political prisoners.
00:33:37.300 And if that makes me a terrorist, okay, I'll take it, I guess.
00:33:42.180 You know what I mean?
00:33:42.600 So, the reason I did not want to talk about politics is because human rights is above politics.
00:33:49.440 So, I was like, you know what?
00:33:50.660 I don't care about the politics side of it.
00:33:52.400 I just want to help people.
00:33:53.680 So, I was like, it's pure human rights.
00:33:56.360 And it's what made you keep going?
00:33:57.860 Because there's a lot of people who would see what was being, the pain that was being inflicted on their family and would think, look, family first.
00:34:05.320 Right.
00:34:05.560 And I'm just going to step back.
00:34:07.400 And I have a lot of empathy for that point of view.
00:34:11.260 You know, the family always first 100%.
00:34:13.780 But, you know, people know my situation and my family situation because, obviously, I play in the NBA.
00:34:19.320 But there are thousands of families out there in jail.
00:34:23.840 Their situation is way worse than mine.
00:34:25.500 I mean, I was looking at the numbers just recently.
00:34:28.240 Right now, there are 17,000 innocent women are in the jail waiting for help.
00:34:32.260 And these women did not commit no crime.
00:34:37.220 You know, these are just housewives, lawyers, doctors, teachers, whatever.
00:34:41.720 And they work in a places which is, or they work in a media outlet which has said something against the regime in Turkey.
00:34:50.860 And a lot of the reports out there, like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Human Rights Foundation, saying that these women are getting tortured and raped.
00:34:58.840 You know, so I'm like, I had to make a decision.
00:35:02.420 I'm like, you know, obviously, it's important to be able to go back to my country, see my family, hang out with my brothers and sisters and stuff.
00:35:11.480 But here, thousands of people are suffering.
00:35:15.180 And do you feel a particular sense of duty because you have a big audience, because you have a platform?
00:35:20.520 I think so.
00:35:21.440 I think, you know, this platform was given me by God.
00:35:24.240 So I was like, you know what?
00:35:25.640 This is just God's work.
00:35:26.720 Because I'm not making, I'm actually losing money.
00:35:29.700 I'm actually losing endorsement deals by talking about these issues.
00:35:34.340 You know, it's not like this is making me more famous.
00:35:38.500 This is getting me better contracts.
00:35:39.900 This is making me join better teams.
00:35:42.780 This is literally like taking a lot out of me.
00:35:46.000 But it's still important for me.
00:35:47.760 And I imagine your agent was going, well.
00:35:51.400 He wasn't, obviously, he wasn't the happiest.
00:35:53.060 Because once you talk about these problems, many of the teams, especially the owners, are like, hmm, I mean, this is a huge deal.
00:36:04.560 This guy, literally, they consider him as an international criminal.
00:36:08.980 They put a bounty on his head.
00:36:10.160 So it's a big distraction for our team, you know, because it was, whenever I joined a team, the whole year was not about basketball.
00:36:22.640 That whole year was about, the whole international media was talking about what's going on in my life.
00:36:28.900 Either a bounty, either me meeting with the world leaders, or either me going to, talking about some of the problems that are happening in the world.
00:36:38.100 So the focus was shifted away from basketball.
00:36:43.940 And no one could have said anything, like, why are you doing it?
00:36:47.540 Because, like I said again, it was pure human rights.
00:36:49.580 So no one really could have challenged me.
00:36:52.300 So for the coaches, or for the owners, it was a big distraction.
00:36:58.800 And, Enes, did anybody ever say to you, look, if you, let's be honest, if you shut your mouth, this will mean that you get a better deal.
00:37:09.940 There's a chance that you could go to a better club.
00:37:12.520 There's a chance that you could have a far better career.
00:37:15.240 Right.
00:37:15.360 But, not when the topic was Turkey, but when the topic was China, yes.
00:37:20.000 Well, this is what I was going to say, because you pissed off the Turkish president, but this wasn't enough, right?
00:37:25.280 Because you then had to piss off the Chinese Communist Party as well.
00:37:28.100 Tell us about that.
00:37:28.860 Oh, just before we do that, there's one thing that I want to say, because I see Mesut Ozil, who is a huge Turkish footballer,
00:37:34.960 and he has appeared in photographs, and he's supporting German footballer, German Turkish footballer, and with Erdogan.
00:37:44.000 So I did respect him till he took a picture with Erdogan, you know?
00:37:50.480 It's not like, so he did talk about the Uyghurs.
00:37:55.940 He was literally talking about some of the important things that are happening in our world and stuff.
00:38:01.380 So I was like, wow, this is very amazing, this is very interesting, and a soccer player going out there and talking about something bigger than soccer.
00:38:09.680 But this is beautiful.
00:38:11.860 Till I saw that he's endorsing Erdogan, that he lost me.
00:38:16.000 And he did not only lose me, he lost millions of people around the world.
00:38:20.520 Now, whenever I go and have a conversation with one of the Turkish people, person, whatever, they said,
00:38:26.340 well, I mean, he was a good player, but, you know, he's affiliated with Erdogan.
00:38:33.540 So you talk about Turkey, you have all this trouble, but that's not enough for you.
00:38:38.800 So this is how it all started.
00:38:44.760 So for the last 10 years, I focused on Turkey.
00:38:48.100 The reason, obviously, my plate was full, because my family, I haven't been able to see my family in almost 10 years now.
00:38:55.360 A lot of my friends and neighbors and whatever in Turkey are stuck in jails and stuff.
00:38:59.320 So just last summer, I am doing a basketball camp in New York.
00:39:05.980 So after that, we had an amazing basketball camp with the kids.
00:39:09.400 After the basketball camp, all the kids just lined up front of me, and they were just getting pictures and getting autographs one by one.
00:39:17.000 So I remember, so I took a picture with this kid, and his parents called me out in front of everybody.
00:39:22.260 The media was there, my friends, some of my, you know, other, you know, athlete friends were there, and little kids were there.
00:39:32.020 He said, how can you call yourself a human rights activist when your Muslim brothers and sisters are getting tortured and raped every day in concentration camp in China?
00:39:42.680 And I'm still smiling for the camera.
00:39:45.560 So I took a picture with this kid, I turned around, I was like, I promise I'm going to get back to you.
00:39:49.660 So that day, I canceled everything.
00:39:53.300 I went back to my hotel, I started to study about what's going on over there in China.
00:39:58.240 And the more I studied, the more I realized, wow, this is just crazy, and no one had the courage to talk about this issue.
00:40:08.340 You see Uyghurs, and the more you study, you see like Tibetans, Hong Kongers, Taiwanese people, Mongolians, Falun Gongs,
00:40:14.900 they are all under heavy persecution by Chinese government.
00:40:20.200 So I was like, well, I got to talk about it.
00:40:24.780 But on internet, you can find all kind of news, you don't know which one to trust or not.
00:40:29.660 It could be a fake news, it could be real news.
00:40:31.760 So I called my manager, I was like, I need you to find me a concentration camp survivor.
00:40:36.660 Obviously, he was very shocked, he was like, what are you talking about?
00:40:39.220 He said, well, just find me one.
00:40:40.800 So he did find me one, it was a lady.
00:40:42.700 So we sit down, had a conversation.
00:40:46.760 I had an amazing one-hour conversation with her.
00:40:50.060 You know, I wanted to just learn the story from, you know, first hand.
00:40:54.680 So she was telling me about all the torture methods, all the gang raping, all the, you
00:41:00.460 know, forced sterilization, abortion, and organ harvesting, and surveillance cameras.
00:41:04.800 And I was like, the more she talked, the more I was like, shame with myself.
00:41:08.100 I was like, I cannot believe that God gave me this huge platform, and I only focused on
00:41:12.560 one dictatorship.
00:41:13.680 So I was like, from now on, I'm going to talk about every dictatorship, that moment.
00:41:19.740 So at the end of our conversation, I asked her, I was like, how can I help?
00:41:25.080 She said, I don't need your help, I'm good.
00:41:27.540 I was like, so why did we have this one-hour conversation for no reason?
00:41:31.280 Like, why did you even come here?
00:41:32.900 She said, I live in America.
00:41:34.700 I live a good life here.
00:41:35.940 I can do whatever I want, I can say whatever I want, I can eat whatever I want, but help
00:41:40.700 those people, help those two, three million Uyghurs are in concentration camp in China
00:41:45.520 because they are getting tortured and raped every day.
00:41:48.260 So at that moment, I'm like, I don't care what kind of contract or endorsement deal or
00:41:52.540 anything you can offer me.
00:41:53.900 I'm just going to go out there and just expose the whole system.
00:41:57.800 That's how it all started.
00:41:58.880 And we know that the NBA has, the Chinese market is bigger than the American market.
00:42:06.340 Exactly.
00:42:07.020 So this didn't go down well.
00:42:09.020 So, like I said again, I wanted to do it, I wanted to do it in a very unique way.
00:42:15.600 So later on, if someone comes and say, why are you doing this?
00:42:19.160 I'm like, this is human rights.
00:42:20.460 So you don't, you're telling me that you don't care about human rights, you know?
00:42:24.220 So I wanted to do it in a very unique way because I remember when I was a kid, whenever
00:42:29.240 I watched an NBA game, the first thing I was watching was the shoes.
00:42:33.180 I mean, everyone loves shoes, what color they are, what brand it is, if they're comfortable.
00:42:37.760 The next day I was telling my dad, please buy those shoes for me, you know?
00:42:41.940 So I had this idea.
00:42:45.540 I was like, let's reach out to these artists around the world, which have been oppressed
00:42:51.060 by their governments because they are the one that knows the story more than anyone.
00:42:54.640 And we were like, let's tell them to put all the struggles, all this, you know, emotion,
00:43:03.580 all the stories on the shoes, and we're going to go out there and play basketball.
00:43:06.580 And these shoes are non-slave labor.
00:43:09.260 I mean, many of the shoes out there in the world right now, unfortunately, they have sweatshops
00:43:12.940 and slave labor.
00:43:13.860 Anyway, so we created the shoes.
00:43:17.140 My first topic was Tibet, free Tibet.
00:43:22.560 You know, it's not political.
00:43:24.200 It's literally a human rights issue.
00:43:26.360 So I put the shoes on, free Tibet shoes.
00:43:28.340 I went out there and played basketball.
00:43:30.060 It was right.
00:43:32.400 Our first game, I was playing for the Celtics.
00:43:34.880 Our first game against New York Knicks.
00:43:37.200 It was the opening night for the New York.
00:43:40.780 And it was just the whole world was watching that game.
00:43:43.220 It was the biggest rivalry.
00:43:44.680 So I put the shoes on.
00:43:46.400 I'm warming up.
00:43:47.880 And a minute before the game, two gentlemen from the NBA came to me and said, take your
00:43:53.620 shoes on.
00:43:54.420 I was like, excuse me?
00:43:56.820 They're like, well, you know, your shoes has been getting so much attention internationally.
00:44:00.800 You've got to take them off.
00:44:03.300 So at that moment, I was just getting ready for my citizenship test in America.
00:44:07.760 So I closed my eyes.
00:44:08.880 I'm like, okay, we have 27 amendments in America.
00:44:11.220 My first amendment, free most speech.
00:44:13.000 I told them, no.
00:44:14.340 Even if I get fined, I'm not taking them off.
00:44:16.640 They said, we're not talking about fined.
00:44:18.360 We're talking about getting banned, which there is no rule against it.
00:44:22.580 So that half, I played zero minutes.
00:44:25.300 Zero.
00:44:26.280 I went back to my locker room.
00:44:27.760 I had thousands of notifications in my phone.
00:44:30.740 I clicked on the one that my manager sent me.
00:44:33.700 He said, every Celtics game is banned in China.
00:44:36.600 It took them 24 minutes, first quarter to the 12th minutes, second quarter, 12 minutes.
00:44:43.060 24 minutes to ban every Celtics game in television.
00:44:47.160 So I was like, well, that clearly shows the censorship and the dictatorship over there.
00:44:51.740 Anyway, so after that game, I played zero minutes.
00:44:53.940 We lost the game.
00:44:54.700 And after the game, there was just huge media storm.
00:44:59.840 Literally, every media outlet in the world from very random countries, which I'd never even heard of, wanted to have an interview.
00:45:09.060 I told my manager, decline them all.
00:45:11.780 I don't want to have no interview with anyone.
00:45:14.080 I didn't want my teammates to think I'm doing this for attention.
00:45:16.980 I was like, decline everything.
00:45:19.080 And he was like, are you sure?
00:45:20.000 I was like, decline everything.
00:45:21.540 So after the game, NBA called me.
00:45:23.900 They were like, well, you know what you did.
00:45:26.760 MBPA called me, the player association, which I give thousands of dollars every year to protect my rights against the NBA.
00:45:32.820 They said, you cannot wear your shoes every game.
00:45:34.700 NBA has been pressured us.
00:45:36.560 I was like, am I breaking any rules?
00:45:37.960 They said, no.
00:45:38.780 They said, well, you cannot wear my rules every game.
00:45:40.120 I was like, if I'm breaking any rules, tell me.
00:45:43.120 I won't wear them.
00:45:44.660 They pressured me so much.
00:45:46.280 I was like, you know what?
00:45:48.180 Fine.
00:45:48.740 I'm not going to wear free-to-bad shoes every game.
00:45:50.480 There's a promise.
00:45:51.460 I said, promise.
00:45:52.140 So we hang up the phone.
00:45:53.500 So the next game, I wore free Uyghur shoes.
00:45:58.560 Now that's what you call doubling down.
00:46:00.680 So they called me after the game, the second game.
00:46:02.740 They're like, you're a liar.
00:46:03.980 You lied to us.
00:46:05.240 We can never trust you again.
00:46:06.560 I was like, first of all, relax.
00:46:08.700 Second, I never lied to you.
00:46:10.920 I never said I'm not going to wear free Uyghur shoes.
00:46:13.540 I just said I'm just not going to wear free Tibet shoes.
00:46:15.880 At that moment, they got it.
00:46:17.360 And they were not going to be able to make me apologize, took my tweet down and say I was not educated enough.
00:46:23.660 Sorry, whatever.
00:46:25.240 So after the second game, one of my teammates woke up to me and said, you know, this is your last year in NBA, right?
00:46:31.640 You criticize China.
00:46:32.900 You criticize Nike.
00:46:34.520 You're not going to play basketball every game.
00:46:36.800 Have fun.
00:46:37.720 Smile.
00:46:38.220 I hope you win a championship.
00:46:39.340 But this is it for you.
00:46:40.840 Wow.
00:46:41.540 And that was it.
00:46:42.380 And it was as simple as that.
00:46:44.580 Simple as that.
00:46:45.940 And, but, I mean, you worked so hard in this.
00:46:49.540 You put, you dedicated so much of your life to getting to the NBA.
00:46:54.340 You clearly love basketball.
00:46:56.560 Was there no part of you who thought?
00:46:58.420 So, I mean, of course, I love basketball, but it's just the promise, I guess, I would say to give to my mom.
00:47:04.380 I was like, mom, I promise I'm going to stand up for what should I do, whatever it takes, even if it means sacrifice and everything I have, you know?
00:47:14.080 I mean, people keep talking about basketball, me losing my career.
00:47:18.260 But I talk about the problems were happening in Turkey.
00:47:21.860 I pretty much lost my family.
00:47:23.500 I haven't seen my mom and dad and my sister over 10 years now, you know?
00:47:28.420 And also, I just, when I know that on the other side of the world, people are losing their loved ones, losing their lives and losing their homes, I just couldn't play.
00:47:37.720 I just couldn't go to sleep at night in peace.
00:47:40.900 And what was the reaction of the manager?
00:47:43.760 What was the reaction of the coaches?
00:47:45.400 What was the reaction of your teammates?
00:47:47.060 And they were just shocked.
00:47:48.120 They're like, everyone was shocked because everybody knew that this is it.
00:47:53.600 I'm not going to play basketball.
00:47:54.860 And it's not like I'm 35 years old.
00:47:57.260 It's not like I was 29 years old.
00:48:00.360 I could have played another like six, seven years.
00:48:02.880 So if they, if I did, if I did this whole thing when I'm 35, 36, they're like, well, you know, he was going to be down with basketball anyway.
00:48:12.540 So he just did it to have a next chapter in his life.
00:48:16.800 I could have literally played another six, seven years.
00:48:19.000 I'm healthy.
00:48:19.860 I love basketball.
00:48:20.820 I love the NBA, the basketball side of it, not the politics side of it, obviously.
00:48:26.160 But this is just bigger than myself, bigger than NBA, bigger than basketball.
00:48:33.780 And Ennis, I think anyone watching this or listening to this will know that you're coming from a good place, really from a good place.
00:48:42.560 And you're doing what you believe and you're standing up for what you believe.
00:48:45.620 But there are also people who will say, you know, we see this with kneeling in relation to BLM in the NBA and in soccer.
00:48:57.080 We see this with Colin Kaepernick, et cetera.
00:49:01.780 But there are people who say, you know, sport is sport and politics is politics.
00:49:08.240 And you violated that separation.
00:49:12.160 So there's a, like I said, from the beginning of our conversation, there's a difference between politics and human rights.
00:49:18.080 I don't do politics.
00:49:18.980 I have never in my life said, even about Turkey or China, let's vote for this guy, let's vote for this party.
00:49:26.840 I don't like, I endorse this person.
00:49:28.760 Never in my life, you know.
00:49:30.460 I keep the pure human rights.
00:49:32.240 So if they are against what I'm saying, then they're against human rights, you know.
00:49:38.620 And because I don't, and also, not only basketball players, but athletes has a huge platform.
00:49:46.380 They can literally inspire millions of kids out there.
00:49:49.960 Now with all the social apps, phones, everything, you know, they're just literally becoming an educator.
00:49:55.920 And now you see all the kids are literally just following the daily routine that these athletes have.
00:50:03.280 So it's in your hand to just put the good things out there and the bad things out there, you know.
00:50:09.160 You see all this, some of the players were putting out there with alcohol and girls and clubs and all,
00:50:14.760 and expensive jewellery and cars.
00:50:17.260 But at the same time, you see other athletes talking about what's more important for our society, you know.
00:50:25.500 Sorry, Anis.
00:50:26.160 I was going to say, was there not a part of you?
00:50:28.100 Because you're obviously a bright guy.
00:50:30.660 You have studied about America.
00:50:32.960 And you looked at the way the NBA have effectively cancelled it.
00:50:37.000 And you think to yourself, and you thought to yourself, well, this is my First Amendment right.
00:50:41.280 I'm going to take you on.
00:50:42.400 Was there not a part of you?
00:50:43.380 It was like, right, if we want to go to battle, let's go to battle.
00:50:45.960 I mean, this was the craziest thing because I was just keep asking myself,
00:50:49.660 how can the biggest dictatorship in the world can control a 100% American-made company
00:50:56.320 and fire an American citizen?
00:51:00.180 I would just keep asking this question to myself.
00:51:02.880 And one of my friends said, study and you will see more.
00:51:06.200 So the more I studied, the more I realized, NBA is not the only one.
00:51:11.460 You see, Hollywood, big tech, academias, Wall Street, farmland, Congress, local congresses,
00:51:20.720 they all run by one of the dictatorships out there.
00:51:25.900 Like, after my basketball career, I was like, you know what?
00:51:29.420 Basketball is over.
00:51:30.500 I am still an athlete.
00:51:31.820 I'm still in good shape.
00:51:33.020 Let me do something else about sports.
00:51:34.620 So I grew up as a huge WWE fan, huge wrestling fan.
00:51:40.180 So I was like, well, I was already in conversation with some of my friends over there and stuff.
00:51:45.280 So I started to have conversations.
00:51:47.040 People heard about it and stuff.
00:51:48.860 And one day, one of my friends called me from WWE.
00:51:53.480 They said, listen, we know that you'd like to talk about some of the problems that are out there happening in the world,
00:51:59.180 but I got to tell you something.
00:52:00.840 I was like, what happened?
00:52:01.580 She said, talk about anything in the world.
00:52:06.160 You can talk about anything in the world.
00:52:07.720 But if you ever talk about Saudi Arabia, you're never going to wrestle.
00:52:14.200 I was just like, what are you talking about?
00:52:18.020 They said, whatever China's for the NBA is WWE for Saudi Arabia.
00:52:23.980 They said, they make so much money from Saudi Arabia every year, which is girls are not even allowed to wrestle there.
00:52:31.740 If you say anything against it, you're not going to be able to wrestle.
00:52:35.200 I was like, well, it's too late.
00:52:38.020 You know?
00:52:38.360 So I see, the more I study, the more I realize every organization, CEO, or company has been bought by someone bad out there.
00:52:49.880 You know, I even call out, you know, all this, the war happening in Ukraine is obviously, it's horrible, it's disgusting, whatever.
00:52:59.420 But you see all these like CEOs, all these organizations and companies are pulling out of Russia.
00:53:06.020 I was like, we were just having this huge conversation with many important people.
00:53:11.020 I was like, if God forbid China to ever try to invade Taiwan, would you guys do the same thing?
00:53:18.200 No answer.
00:53:20.100 And the reason is obviously because China is a bigger and more powerful market.
00:53:24.320 Of course.
00:53:25.200 Right.
00:53:26.100 And did you think that, I mean, you say it's not politics, and I know what you mean.
00:53:33.400 But these issues, unfortunately, are political, right?
00:53:36.720 People politicize them.
00:53:38.180 And we saw with, for example, BLM, the NBA treated that very differently to your kids.
00:53:43.860 Very differently.
00:53:44.360 To put it mildly.
00:53:46.680 Well, the reason was they know that, you know, during the NBA bubble, I was in the NBA bubble.
00:53:52.220 I'm sure you guys know about the NBA bubble.
00:53:54.100 But tell the audience.
00:53:55.300 So three years ago, 2020, the COVID hit, and NBA obviously still wanted to make money.
00:54:01.440 So they took all of us into a hotel in Disney.
00:54:05.740 So we were in a hotel over 82 days, and we just couldn't, you know, meet with anyone from the outside.
00:54:14.380 You know, they were testing us twice a day.
00:54:16.960 And it was all about social justice.
00:54:21.060 They put the BLM logos on the floor.
00:54:23.540 They put those phrases behind our jersey, which was controlled by the NBA.
00:54:28.120 It was all about social justice and standing for what's right.
00:54:31.440 And I was like, you know what?
00:54:32.700 This is your freedom of protest.
00:54:34.840 I got you.
00:54:35.440 If you want to do it, do it.
00:54:36.600 I'm not against it.
00:54:38.640 But NBA knew that the things that they stand up for in America is not going to affect their business.
00:54:46.580 They are going to shut you up about anything if the things that you talk about affects their money or business.
00:54:56.520 I was like, because I was seeing the hypocrisy, you know?
00:54:59.620 So BLM and everything was, for them, it was just PR.
00:55:06.400 You know, they were just trying to do PR, trying to get more clicks, more eyeballs, more recognition.
00:55:12.320 They're like, wow, look at NBA.
00:55:13.860 It's the first organization that goes out there standing with African-American community in America.
00:55:20.220 Wow, what an amazing organization.
00:55:21.840 But then China happened.
00:55:24.440 And I was like, first couple of games, I was like seeing that.
00:55:28.480 I was like, where is my support?
00:55:30.160 Where is Adam Silver?
00:55:31.540 Where is all these owners and billionaires or teammates or coaches?
00:55:36.700 Where are they?
00:55:37.960 You know?
00:55:38.360 I was like, you know what?
00:55:39.360 I'm just going to expose the whole system.
00:55:41.240 After I got released, China put the games back on television after three weeks.
00:55:48.880 And we found out, we did the whole investigation, we found out 40 NBA owners have got tied up $10 billion in China.
00:56:00.320 I was like, well, that clearly shows why I'm out of the league.
00:56:04.440 Yeah.
00:56:05.020 And did teammates, do they still talk to you?
00:56:09.120 Or are you kind of seen as a kind of pariah figure?
00:56:12.320 Good question.
00:56:12.880 So when I was playing, they were really supportive, silent support.
00:56:19.440 You know, they were very supportive.
00:56:20.720 They're like, it was the perfect moment because it was right before the Beijing Olympics.
00:56:24.540 I was like, guys, join me.
00:56:27.080 Forget about the NBA.
00:56:28.200 I was reaching out to NFL, MLB, NHL, MLS, all the major leagues in America.
00:56:36.080 Forget about America.
00:56:36.940 I was even reaching out to Olympians.
00:56:39.000 I was like, this is not a political issue.
00:56:41.320 This is a human rights issue.
00:56:42.220 So let's just join me.
00:56:43.420 We'll create a movement.
00:56:44.540 We'll talk about the slave labor.
00:56:45.880 We'll talk about the sweatshirts.
00:56:47.100 We talk about the people over there dying.
00:56:50.560 They're like, listen, we love you.
00:56:52.700 We support you, but we just cannot do it all out.
00:56:55.100 I was like, why?
00:56:55.940 They said, well, we have shoe deals, endorsement deals.
00:56:59.220 We want to get another contract.
00:57:01.100 I asked them one simple question.
00:57:02.760 I was like, put yourself in their shoes.
00:57:04.780 If your mother, if your sister, if your daughter was in those concentration camps getting tortured and raped every day,
00:57:10.600 would you still pick money and business over your morals, values, and principles?
00:57:16.160 They usually turn around and leave their own.
00:57:17.900 Wow.
00:57:18.760 And do you think part of this, the reason that you have this attitude, Ennis, is the fact that you have seen a totalitarian regime.
00:57:26.140 You know what that means.
00:57:27.260 You understand that.
00:57:28.160 Whereas people who grew up in America, they don't understand what that means.
00:57:32.740 They have no concept.
00:57:33.720 I remember one time we were having a conversation in a locker room with my teammates, and they were like, oh, America is bad.
00:57:39.900 America is horrible.
00:57:40.920 America is this and that.
00:57:42.600 I stopped them.
00:57:43.700 I was like, guys, season is about to be over.
00:57:46.700 When the season is over, let me buy your tickets.
00:57:49.700 It was a very generous first-class ticket.
00:57:51.840 It was like, let me buy your tickets.
00:57:54.100 And let's go to some of those dictatorships out there, like Russia, like China, like Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea.
00:58:01.400 And I would like to see if you guys can forget about a tweet, if you guys can even criticize or say something about those regimes.
00:58:10.420 You and your family members will be in torture and rape in jails forever.
00:58:15.340 Just because they didn't grow up, they grew up with so much freedom in the markets in this country, they don't know any better.
00:58:23.480 And Ennis, this is such a beautiful point.
00:58:25.640 You know, as we talked earlier, I'm from Russia.
00:58:27.800 France's mother is from Venezuela.
00:58:29.140 It's one of the reasons we talk about the things that we talk about on the show.
00:58:33.080 And one of the things that seems to me is the story of your story and the NBA and how you've handled BLM versus how I handled your Chinese and Turkish protests is that it's okay to beat up America.
00:58:48.500 Yeah.
00:58:48.740 America bad.
00:58:50.060 America's the worst place ever.
00:58:52.100 Blah, blah, blah.
00:58:52.480 And you can't criticize anyone else.
00:58:56.420 We are the worst people.
00:58:58.240 Let's not look anywhere else.
00:58:59.780 And, you know, that is correct.
00:59:02.620 And also, I was like, I didn't, I don't want to say I wanted to educate my teammates because they already knew.
00:59:09.140 They already knew that their shoes has been made by slave kits.
00:59:13.700 There are so much blood and sweat and oppression behind those items.
00:59:17.440 You know, they knew a lot of the problems were happening around the world.
00:59:22.900 They knew some of the things that I even talk about.
00:59:25.000 But them picking money and business over their morals, over what's going on, really broke my heart.
00:59:32.720 And now, when I got released, I played 11 years in the NBA.
00:59:37.860 I had hundreds of teammates, hundreds of coaches, so many people from the foreign offices.
00:59:42.440 Not the one of them texted me.
00:59:44.160 Wow.
00:59:44.340 They said, hey, man, good luck with your next chapter.
00:59:46.800 Because they didn't want me to mention their name whenever I give it in to you.
00:59:50.720 I was like, hey, this guy supported me, this guy texted me, which I would never do without their permission.
00:59:57.920 Because they knew if I say, hey, this guy supported me when I talked about Hong Kongers, he was going to get a lot of trouble.
01:00:08.000 And why do you think they didn't?
01:00:10.440 Is it because they like the money?
01:00:12.720 Is it because they like the lifestyle?
01:00:14.460 Is it because they don't want to get in trouble?
01:00:17.040 I would say all, but fear is the most important one, you know?
01:00:22.240 There are so many other examples out there, like Richard Kerr.
01:00:26.720 I'm sure you know who that is.
01:00:28.700 He was an actor in Hollywood, and he talked about, obviously, Tibetans, and he was just gone after that, you know?
01:00:36.240 I think that seeing these kind of examples, me getting released at the age of, like, prime of my time, you know,
01:00:43.100 is like a really big hit for them.
01:00:45.880 So that's why I was like, you know what, this whole system needs to be exposed.
01:00:49.980 And now they've really lost 50% of the country, you know?
01:00:54.900 And now whenever I have a conversation with so many of, you know, the sports fans, they say, well, we love NBA, we love amazing,
01:01:01.300 but they don't stand for what's right.
01:01:03.580 We don't believe that they, whenever they stand up for one of the social justice issues that are happening in America,
01:01:09.560 that we know that it's not going to hit their pocket, or we know that they're not genuine about it.
01:01:13.920 Yeah.
01:01:14.900 Enes, you've been very generous with your time, so I don't want to hold you up too much longer, but are you happy?
01:01:20.920 You're happy you did this?
01:01:22.520 I'm very happy.
01:01:23.400 I have zero regrets.
01:01:24.300 A lot of people ask it.
01:01:25.100 That is the one question that I get the most.
01:01:28.240 Do you have any regrets?
01:01:29.040 Obviously, I love basketball.
01:01:32.260 I love my family.
01:01:33.400 Forget about basketball.
01:01:34.400 I love my family.
01:01:35.660 I haven't even been able to live and have a phone conversation with them for years, you know?
01:01:41.460 But at the end, like I said, again, what I'm doing is bigger than myself, bigger than basketball, bigger than NBA,
01:01:48.860 because while I was dribbling the ball in this country, on the other side of the world, other side of the ocean,
01:01:54.160 people were suffering, you know?
01:01:56.520 And you can only understand that if you lived it, and I did live it, you know?
01:02:03.320 Many of my dad was in jail.
01:02:05.860 Many of my friends right now are still in jail.
01:02:08.080 Many of my neighbors, maybe ex-teammates, still played in Turkey in jail just because of their support of me.
01:02:13.220 I'm happy I did it, but, you know, I mean, I love basketball.
01:02:22.040 You can never go back to those times, and I love competing.
01:02:25.640 I love winning games.
01:02:26.580 I love going to different arenas and beating their team for their own fans.
01:02:31.140 It's just the most funnest thing that you could do, but I have no regrets.
01:02:35.020 I'm very happy.
01:02:36.160 And it's been an absolute pleasure.
01:02:38.340 Before we move on to our locals, where our patrons get to ask you questions,
01:02:44.020 we always finish the interview with the same question, which is,
01:02:47.320 what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be?
01:02:52.860 I think the one word that I just wish that I can just somehow magically put in everyone's heart is empathy.
01:03:01.220 You know, once you have empathy, and you can understand what others are going through.
01:03:06.520 You know, we can just live an amazing life in this side of the world,
01:03:11.800 but on the other side of the world, people are literally, you know,
01:03:15.920 running away from wars and running away from bombs and running away from these terrorist groups.
01:03:21.620 So they don't recruit them, you know.
01:03:24.580 Once you have empathy, you're going to be able to try to understand the other side
01:03:29.160 and do whatever you can to help them, even if it means sacrifice and everything.
01:03:33.900 I think we definitely need to talk about that word more, empathy.
01:03:38.640 Enes Friedman, thank you for coming on the show.
01:03:40.720 Join us on Locals, where we ask your questions to Enes.
01:03:43.740 Take care and we'll see you over there.
01:03:45.240 Take care and see you soon, guys.
01:03:48.360 Do you think Turkey will ever be a democratic country?
01:03:52.640 Take care.
01:03:53.560 Take care.
01:03:53.820 We'll be right back.