TRIGGERnometry - Nigel Farage - How I Took on the Establishment and Won

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:00:40.760 for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people an interesting guest we have

00:00:46.580 for you today it's mr brexit himself nigel farage welcome to trigonometry thank you very much

00:00:51.560 pleasure to be here in brexit britain you started off very non-partisan there nigel well done

00:01:00.080 But listen, it's great to have you on.

00:01:02.060 I just set the table a little bit

00:01:04.300 and get our cards on that table.

00:01:06.580 Francis and I both voted Remain.

00:01:08.240 There will be a lot of people who watch the show

00:01:10.120 who love you.

00:01:11.820 There'll be lots of people who watch the show

00:01:13.280 who hate you.

00:01:14.120 There'll be lots of people who watch the show

00:01:15.480 who are sort of in the middle between those two.

00:01:17.960 But I think for us, the way we feel about it,

00:01:20.760 if someone is objective about your career,

00:01:23.160 they would have to admit that

00:01:24.660 in terms of achieving your results,

00:01:26.800 now people may hate the results you've achieved,

00:01:28.620 But you've been one of the most successful politicians in my lifetime, certainly.

00:01:33.900 Now, I wanted to talk a little bit about where that comes from, because you've had to fight.

00:01:38.180 You know, when you're standing there next to the candidate for the monster raving loony party and you're closer to him than you are to winning that election all those years ago. 0.89

00:01:49.000 What is it that makes you tick and keep fighting and keep going?

00:01:52.780 well I think once I was quite normal um because I I you know I left school I skipped university

00:01:59.680 because the the boom in the city had started you know Thatcher had been elected uh there was the

00:02:05.340 the development of something called the yuppie and I thought yeah I like the look of that I want to

00:02:10.060 be a yuppie so I skipped university went to work in the city of London worked on a place called

00:02:15.120 London Metal Exchange um which as I've always said to people we used to work very hard up until

00:02:20.520 lunchtime every day to disintegrate pretty quickly and I played golf you know I was a

00:02:27.400 four handicapped golfer I got married young had kids young and I was all set really you know to

00:02:36.020 stay in the commodity business and the real ambition was to make money and live as high

00:02:41.740 lifestyle as I possibly could politics current affairs what I'd always cared about those things

00:02:48.060 passionately you know I mean growing up through the 1970s seeing the three-day week doing homework

00:02:55.180 by candlelight because of the power strikes seeing inflation get to nearly 30 percent then seeing

00:03:02.420 this woman Mrs Thatcher appear as if from nowhere become prime minister with a radical new agenda 0.99

00:03:10.060 so I'd always cared about politics and current affairs and the funny thing was working in

00:03:16.080 commodities you know very much a global business copper aluminium all these things you know

00:03:20.720 politics and current affairs affected those prices politics and current affairs were what we talked

00:03:25.520 about all day long and i was an avid free marketeer um you know a great believer in reaganomics um in

00:03:35.580 much of what thatcher stood for i mean i could see the downside of it but i thought we have to have

00:03:40.420 these radical reform we have to take this medicine so i always cared about all of these issues

00:03:46.620 hugely followed you know what happened in parliament very closely but i'd never had the

00:03:53.020 slightest intention even to stand for the local council i thought no no that's not for me you

00:03:59.880 know politics is for the oxbridge set you know i'll let them get on with that i'll get on with

00:04:04.920 what I do but what dawned on me in 1990 and we did a day on the exchange it was 5 5 30 in the evening

00:04:16.000 we were you guessed it in the pub in the city and this of course is before almost anybody had a

00:04:22.680 mobile phone um and you know one of the young lads ran into the bar from the office into the

00:04:28.980 pub from the office and said we've just joined the exchange rate mechanism now that was the means by

00:04:34.520 which we peg sterling against a basket of european currencies mainly of course the deutschmark

00:04:39.620 and that was a precursor to us joining what we now know as the euro now i won't

00:04:46.160 on trigonometry uh you tell you the anglo-saxon words that i used on hearing this news

00:04:52.300 but i simply couldn't believe it and the next day going to london by train the conservative

00:04:59.080 Party supported ERM. The Labour Party supported ERM. The Liberals supported ERM. The TUC supported

00:05:06.200 ERM. The CBI supported ERM. And pretty much every single national newspaper supported ERM.

00:05:13.760 And I looked at this and I thought this is going to be a disaster. We are at a completely different

00:05:20.480 phase of the economic cycle to Germany and the Central European economies. We are very much a

00:05:26.540 services economy they're much more a manufacturing economy um i could see that the 80s boom had come

00:05:35.160 to an end and that you know negative equity was appearing in property prices i could see that a

00:05:40.180 bust was coming uh and i just thought this is going to be a disaster well for the next two years

00:05:45.780 i bored the life out of anybody that would listen you know in the office on the train coming home

00:05:52.560 from London. I mean, wherever I was, I became an ERM bore. And of course, it was all bored out,

00:05:59.860 because the madness of what happened in September 92, when interest rates doubled,

00:06:06.460 just to keep the pound up, and stood inside the exchange rate mechanism. And that year

00:06:11.380 was the year of record home repossessions. That year was the record year for small business

00:06:18.760 bankruptcies and I thought to myself I don't know what it is but I could see something that the

00:06:26.620 political class couldn't see and I realized that establishment status quos form around a set of 0.98

00:06:34.900 ideas and this is true not just of politics it's true in science it's true in business

00:06:39.380 a status quo forms around an idea and groupthink takes over or lack of proper thinking takes over

00:06:48.240 So I'd seen that experience. I'd been right about it. And then, you know, hard on the heels of that, we had this thing called the Maastricht Treaty, which is when the European community became the European Union.

00:07:00.320 and I watched the Tory rebels in parliament you know do their best fight a rearguard action but

00:07:06.980 in the end John Major put it down to a motion of confidence and of course like good little boys

00:07:13.200 they all went and supported the party and voted for the very thing that they'd said would be an

00:07:18.240 economic and political disaster for our nation and its independence and I thought this is really odd

00:07:24.920 because in my village people don't support this in my village people want to be friendly with

00:07:32.000 Europe and trade with Europe and not be governed by it and I just determined then in 93 I said

00:07:37.200 you know what I don't care I really don't care even if I'm the only person that votes for me

00:07:43.960 as a matter of principle I'm going to fight these so-and-sos so I put myself up for a by-election 1.00

00:07:50.860 i did beat screaming lord such only by 148 votes i beat david such by a hundred what a lovely bloke

00:08:01.340 he was um and all my friends and family said but surely this experience must put you off

00:08:09.720 you know it's impossible to take on the establishment and i i suppose then what

00:08:15.360 kicked in was an absolute belief that i was right and just sheer bloody mindedness and so i never

00:08:26.980 stopped and i kept campaigning in 1994 95 96 97 i never stopped campaigning i never stopped you

00:08:35.060 know going out speaking in village halls and if i got an audience of 30 or 40 i'd be thrilled

00:08:39.760 in those days and I kept on battling away and then the big opportunity came for me

00:08:45.680 and that was in 1999 when for the first time in the history of this country a national election

00:08:51.900 was contested on the basis of proportional representation and so I got elected to the

00:08:57.400 European Parliament in 1999 and as a result of that you know you start to get invited onto

00:09:03.740 question time and these programs although i mean i mean i was treated you know i mean by the

00:09:09.340 dimblebys and all these people as if i was on sort of day release from a lunatic asylum you know 0.98

00:09:13.960 but so so really that's the story the story is the consensus establishment had decided

00:09:21.340 this was our future for the for the next foreseeable decades or forever um and i just

00:09:28.080 felt they were wrong i was right and i always in the bottom of my heart felt that actually

00:09:32.860 middle england didn't agree with any of this so it's it's it's nice of you to say that i've been

00:09:37.920 very successful in achieving my goals and i have i just wish it hadn't taken 27 years well i was

00:09:44.480 going to ask you on a personal level you talk about the political conviction which i think

00:09:48.680 everybody would recognize but is there a part of you just likes pissing people off nigel just a 0.99

00:09:53.340 little bit just annoying winding people up a little bit is there a part of you that's that as

00:09:57.700 well oh enormously enormously I mean I we were taught I was very lucky I really was lucky to go

00:10:08.320 to a good school and and to be taught by some great people and you know the older guys that

00:10:14.700 taught me who were all you know they'd all driven tanks or flown spitfires or whatever it was or

00:10:19.480 they played cricket for England well an amazing group of people we had at Dulwich teaching us

00:10:24.020 and you know the good ones taught us question everything don't accept anything at face value

00:10:30.360 question everything debate everything i don't think you know during my teens i sort of took

00:10:35.320 that to the nth degree um often of articulating positions i didn't believe in at all uh just

00:10:41.500 because i enjoyed uh getting the reaction back although nothing could prepare me i suppose

00:10:47.020 for becoming the pantomime villain of the european parliament i mean you know amazing you know when i

00:10:53.500 got up to speak and sort of 500 people started booing um now most human beings would not want

00:11:00.240 to live with that experience you know most human beings would temper their ideas because normally

00:11:07.180 people like to fit in normally people like to feel a sense of belonging but it just didn't

00:11:14.200 it just didn't matter to me uh and and in the in the latter years i mean in brussels particularly

00:11:22.260 you know coffee shops wouldn't serve me pubs banned me restaurants wouldn't allow me and i

00:11:27.860 mean that's how far it went and yet and yet i took it all as a compliment i thought i remember

00:11:34.220 in 2014 and that was the worst of it 2014 was the worst of it in terms of the press and it was just

00:11:40.540 unbelievable i mean for standing up and saying that i thought the foreign aid budget was being

00:11:45.420 badly spent for standing up and saying that i thought actually the untrammeled free movement

00:11:51.480 of unskilled labour was really not helping working people in Britain pushing down their wages damaging

00:11:57.180 their access to public services I mean I look back the other day at some of the interviews

00:12:01.340 I was doing with Sky News and the BBC back in 2014 I mean you really would have thought for all the

00:12:07.760 world that I was heralding you know 1930s German style fascism to come into Britain I mean that 0.93

00:12:15.180 was the level of hostility to my ideas. And they've now become mainstream ideas. Anyway,

00:12:22.640 it was difficult. And I remember one morning, one Sunday morning in 2014, the phone rang here at

00:12:27.960 about 7am. And it was my lawyer. Oh, my God, the law is ringing on a Sunday morning. This can't be

00:12:34.260 good. And he just said to me, Andrew, he said, you know what? Don't buy the newspapers. Don't

00:12:41.180 have a look online just don't read any of it because it will damage your confidence and I

00:12:48.500 took his advice and as the years went on I just didn't read any of it I certainly didn't look at

00:12:55.620 Twitter and see what people were saying I stuck to what I believed in what I knew to be true

00:13:00.760 I did my absolute best to be honest with people about what I thought Brexit meant and what some

00:13:07.520 of the downsides might be. I did that all through the referendum campaign as well. But it was tough

00:13:12.000 to withstand it. But I'll never forget in 14, getting a letter written in spidery handwriting.

00:13:19.720 And the man said, I'm 93 years old. During the war, I served in bomber command. He said,

00:13:26.160 and I can tell you, you only start taking heavy flack when you're getting near the target. And I

00:13:32.140 never ever forgot that letter the establishment were literally terrified of me uh brussels perhaps

00:13:40.160 even more so um and so i i learned um i learned to um enjoy my own company because nobody else

00:13:50.780 wanted to be seen or talked to and even you know you go to the supermarket you know going around

00:13:56.220 you know the local waitrose buying the essentials you know gin tonic lemons that sort of thing

00:14:02.140 and you know and people would look like good luck with it all so god i hope the neighbors haven't

00:14:08.460 seen i spoke to him it was as if this sort of mantle of being the devil was put upon me so

00:14:13.900 so there must have been something slightly unusual in my makeup um to make me endure it

00:14:19.740 and you know if i'm being honest i can laugh about it now some of it was pretty tough

00:14:23.860 and nigel we talk about you know something you know experiences being very tough you've had

00:14:30.980 a lot of epithets being hurled against you far-right racist etc etc in your own opinion

00:14:36.780 why do you think it is that people have hurled these epithets at you oh I think that I think

00:14:43.680 that when you challenge orthodoxy rather than examining whether the criticism of the orthodoxy

00:14:52.400 is valid or not you seek to dismiss the other person with abuse and insults it was the great

00:14:59.740 uh gandhi wasn't it who said about the campaign for indian independence from the british empire

00:15:05.340 you know first they ignore you then they laugh at you then they attack you and then you win

00:15:13.680 a complete refusal to deal with ideas and a belief that just by hurling abuse you can destroy the

00:15:20.940 other side um and and i mean cameron tried it was quite funny actually cameron tried it

00:15:27.280 uh cameron was on with nick ferrari on lbc he was asked about nigel farage and ukip

00:15:33.100 oh he said a bunch of fruitcakes loonies and closet racist mostly now that was quite a wounding thing

00:15:40.460 for a prime minister to say about a party that i led but actually it helped us because people

00:15:47.980 could see how unreasonable he was being you know everyone said oh farage stands for this farage

00:15:54.300 stands for that. Have you ever actually read what he's actually said? And it was as if people were

00:16:01.420 choosing to interpret what I'd said, rather than actually reading the words. And, you know,

00:16:06.640 the truth of it is that nation states make their own laws. Nation states have their own courts.

00:16:15.540 Nation states control their own borders and choose who they think are fit and proper people 0.53

00:16:19.540 to come and settle in their country i mean these were all perfectly reasonable sensible points of

00:16:26.440 view but were demonized because they challenged the establishment and i you know i would say this

00:16:33.220 to anybody that tries to you know paint out ukip and and what it stood for in in that racist way

00:16:42.580 you know i was the only party leader who banned anybody who'd ever been a member of the british

00:16:49.200 National Party from even becoming a member of UKIP you know I drew that line within my own

00:16:56.140 party and you know something in 2006 Nick Griffin had quite a big tailwind behind him you know a lot

00:17:04.180 of dispossessed white working class who were very unhappy what was happening in their communities

00:17:09.220 had started to vote for Nick Griffin once I'd drawn that line that we wouldn't accept BNP members and

00:17:16.180 supporters but if you were holding your nose and voting bmp as a protest but didn't agree

00:17:23.180 with their outright racist policies you could come and vote for me and they did i think i did more

00:17:29.960 i mean here we are here's the funny thing about my critics i i honestly believe i did more to stop

00:17:36.940 the rise of the far right in this country than any other individual and i really mean that

00:17:41.560 and Nigel do you not do you ever look back on the campaign with UKIP and also with Brexit and go

00:17:48.520 I made a misstep here I gave ammunition to the people criticizing me

00:17:52.960 do you know something on those days you know during election campaigns on those days out in

00:18:01.140 the road um on the road you know I'd go to a market town in Staffordshire all right for

00:18:06.420 argument's sake you know i do a street walk about go in the betting shop go in the pub uh you know

00:18:13.220 meet people in the town square and i would then probably spend the next three to four hours

00:18:19.120 being interviewed by local newspapers local radio stations you know local broadcasters on

00:18:25.860 you know youtube or whatever else it would be i mean i i gave more interviews than anybody ever

00:18:31.660 because I had to do that to propel this party

00:18:34.840 into the public's consciousness.

00:18:36.900 You cannot, you cannot do thousands of hours of interviews.

00:18:41.840 You cannot speak, you know, hundreds of thousands of words

00:18:45.280 without sometimes making a mistake.

00:18:47.080 Of course, we're all human.

00:18:49.540 We're all bound to make mistakes.

00:18:51.580 We're all bound to say things that we think afterwards,

00:18:54.360 oh, well, that wasn't very bright

00:18:55.920 because I know how they're going to portray it.

00:18:58.980 So of course we make mistakes.

00:19:00.440 But what I would say, and what I do think came through to people, whether they agreed with what I was saying or not, I like to think that I put the message across in a very clear, succinct way so that people could understand what the message is.

00:19:21.320 And I think I managed to get that through.

00:19:23.540 And I also think that people felt, again, whether they agreed or not,

00:19:29.360 that what I was saying, I genuinely and sincerely believed in.

00:19:33.620 Yeah, and the other thing I think people felt,

00:19:35.920 and this included people like me who were at the time

00:19:38.460 on a completely different side of the argument,

00:19:40.960 was that you were being subject to different standards than everybody else.

00:19:45.900 You were being unfairly treated by large sections of the media.

00:19:49.440 and you know frankly maybe if they if they'd not done that you might not have been as successful

00:19:54.620 do you think that's possible if they just let you on the shows and didn't treat you as this sort of

00:19:59.160 weirdo do you know it's very interesting i was talking yesterday to a political commentator who

00:20:04.640 made the point to me that in the 2015 general election when ukip got four million votes and

00:20:11.180 one seat you know UKIP got more votes than the SNP and the Lib Dems and Plaid all added up together

00:20:19.620 and one seat almost that sense of injustice what had happened within our system I think propelled

00:20:29.120 even more people to vote leave in the referendum of 2016 than would have done before so yes I think

00:20:35.620 there are a lot of very fair-minded people out there uh who don't like bullying who don't like

00:20:41.480 unfairness and ironically i think you're right i think the worse they behave the more unreasonable

00:20:47.320 they were i think in many ways the more it galvanized support behind me yes

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00:22:29.900 Nigel, to my mind, you were one of the first mainstream political figures

00:22:33.820 when I became politically aware that was talking about immigration.

00:22:37.580 Why is it that immigration is such a taboo subject in this country?

00:22:41.740 And if you come out in favour of limiting immigration,

00:22:44.520 that immediately paints you as being far right and all the rest of it.

00:22:49.320 Yeah, yeah.

00:22:50.320 Well, I think I've long believed that the greatest intellectual that we had in post-war politics in Britain was Enoch Powell.

00:23:00.760 I mean, hard to disagree with that. I mean, the man was extraordinary.

00:23:04.680 The man was brilliant. The man was very far-sighted.

00:23:07.960 And if I look at what he was saying about the common market in 1972, it's all come true. 1.00

00:23:13.160 but but the speech that he gave in 1968 the speech that became known as the rivers of speech

00:23:23.820 i think it was so ill-judged in terms of its tone and the way that it was allowed to be interpreted

00:23:33.940 that it almost put the tin lid on having a sensible immigration debate for decades after

00:23:41.080 that. And I think that did real, real damage. When I was first elected in 1999, on all of my

00:23:50.720 election literature, the word immigration didn't appear. Didn't appear. Why? Because net migration

00:23:59.880 into Britain was averaging about 30,000 a year. It was still at a level that concerned some people,

00:24:08.160 but it was, let's be honest about it, it was pretty manageable. And I looked at things in

00:24:12.960 the late 90s, and I compared assimilation, integration of different communities in the

00:24:19.500 United Kingdom, and compare it to France and Germany, or the Netherlands, or anywhere else

00:24:24.900 in Europe. You know, we'd done this better than anybody else. We really had done this better than

00:24:29.820 anybody else so i didn't even discuss immigration and the same applied in 2000 2001 2002 when i saw

00:24:40.620 when i saw that what blair had done was to open the doors effectively to the world but then

00:24:49.320 especially to open the doors to eight and then 10 former communist countries some of whom had

00:24:55.800 minimum wages that were seven, eight times lower than the British minimum wage, some of which had

00:25:01.940 not made the transition from being communist states to free Western economies. And when Mr Blair told

00:25:08.280 us that 13,000 people a year would arrive as a result of this, I thought this is the moment,

00:25:15.080 this is going to become the issue. So I made a very big call in 2004, a very big call. I said

00:25:22.620 that millions would come i said huge numbers would come to britain i said it would have a very

00:25:27.500 damaging effect on you know the life of lots of ordinary people um and so that was the moment

00:25:34.180 that was the moment that immigration became part of my political fight why does it matter so much

00:25:40.640 well of course it doesn't matter if you're a cabinet minister it doesn't matter if you're

00:25:45.800 rich it doesn't matter if you're a big business owner because it means cheaper nannies

00:25:51.940 cheaper gardeners and cheap labour but it matters hugely to everybody else because we did

00:26:01.860 unquestionably see compression of labour crises with our primary schools just not simply being

00:26:10.620 able to cope with the numbers um and and you know disjointed communities where you know the numbers

00:26:18.920 coming in that spoke foreign languages or from different cultures was so fast that we weren't 0.94

00:26:23.940 getting that level of integration that we need to have a settled happy society so without immigration 1.00

00:26:30.340 without well with two things actually without immigration and without the internet

00:26:35.020 the UKIP would have remained a fringe force in British politics but those two things

00:26:41.800 propelled it to where it got to and Nigel all three of us I'm I came to this country in 1995

00:26:48.200 from a former Soviet country in Russia.

00:26:51.620 And I remember, actually, the point that you make.

00:26:54.060 The levels were so low.

00:26:55.240 No one really cared about immigration.

00:26:56.780 I think the public concern about immigration at the time

00:26:59.340 was about 3% in 1995.

00:27:01.640 It changed when you got here.

00:27:02.660 It changed when I got here, absolutely.

00:27:04.700 I single-handedly ruined it.

00:27:07.580 But you understand, coming from your background,

00:27:09.600 you understand what I mean.

00:27:10.660 I mean, countries like Bulgaria and Romania,

00:27:15.460 which are so much in the grip of organized crime,

00:27:18.200 You know, we, the sensible thing to do would have been to be cautious, but we weren't.

00:27:23.980 And of course, I was called all sorts of things for daring to say this, but that was how ordinary

00:27:29.840 folk felt. And you know yourself, having come here in 1995, that, you know, you would not find

00:27:36.000 a country in the European time zone more welcoming and more open than this.

00:27:41.640 In the world, Nigel, in the world. I make this point to people all the time, all the time.

00:27:46.660 Britain is one of the most tolerant and welcoming places in the entire history of the human race.

00:27:51.040 And that really was what shifted my thoughts on a lot of this stuff, because I saw after the referendum, in which I was a very strong Remains supporter at the time, suddenly the explanation for why Brexit happened was that everybody in this country was racist.

00:28:05.660 And that's when I went, no, that isn't true. That's not my experience as a dark-skinned immigrant in this country.

00:28:11.680 Yeah, that was disgusting. I mean, let's be honest about it. 0.85

00:28:14.300 You know, talking to you guys, you're Remainers, but you're Democrats, you accept the result. That's great. Of course, you know, that's how it should be. 0.63

00:28:22.380 But frankly, the behaviour of large sections of our elected politicians in Westminster to completely refuse to accept the result of the of the referendum,

00:28:34.660 to denigrate, as you've just pointed out,

00:28:37.880 those who dared to vote against the establishment view.

00:28:41.160 And then every attempt to prevent it from happening

00:28:44.340 or make us vote again.

00:28:45.860 I honestly think that in 100 years' time,

00:28:49.320 we will look back at the history of this period

00:28:51.660 and school kids will be taught

00:28:52.900 that it's one of the most shameful episodes

00:28:55.300 in what is supposed to be a democratic country.

00:28:58.800 So did you get what you wanted, Nigel?

00:29:00.220 Because we've got Brexit.

00:29:02.060 uh we we got the australian style point system that you were talking about right that that's

00:29:07.680 we've got a tory government uh but the numbers of people coming into the country are the same

00:29:13.260 as they ever were oh yes i mean look you know the conservative party are not a conservative party

00:29:19.380 i mean it's just complete misnomer um and and boris johnson and the sort of posh boys around him

00:29:28.980 um they don't regard immigration as an issue they used it briefly in the referendum very briefly

00:29:35.240 in the referendum because it suited their purposes to do so um and you're right uh net

00:29:41.560 migration is still running at very very high levels and we also face a very big dilemma 1.00

00:29:48.400 as to what to do about Hong Kong and I say big dilemma because you know I am very concerned

00:29:57.380 about the influence the Chinese Communist Party is having

00:30:00.500 upon the free world, upon its own world too.

00:30:04.200 And yet, you know, what would it mean

00:30:07.520 if 300,000 or 3 million people came and settled

00:30:12.940 in the United Kingdom from Hong Kong?

00:30:15.520 So I think that is the time

00:30:19.800 when the immigration debate will be back on.

00:30:23.000 um for the moment for the moment uh the conservatives are able to get away with

00:30:31.800 something which is the public perception is that because of brexit we've dealt with the issue

00:30:36.380 the truth is we haven't the truth is we haven't and look you know you asked me that question i

00:30:41.300 mean the truth is that you never ever get everything you want in victory sometimes

00:30:48.860 losing is easier it's a bit like trading the markets you know you've got a position on the

00:30:53.940 markets it's going wrong you can't sleep for a week you get rid of the position you take your

00:31:00.600 loss you feel almost a sense of relief that it's over when you've got a winning trade you always

00:31:07.040 say oh i should have done it in a bigger size i should have gone out a bit earlier victory is

00:31:12.380 never perfect but look when i see what's happened with our withdrawal from the european medicines

00:31:20.820 agency and the fact we've been able to act in the interest of our own people with the vaccine roll

00:31:27.240 out compared to the absolute shambles in brussels uh that i think that i think will be the lasting

00:31:36.300 testament as to why being in control of national decisions and having those decisions made by

00:31:43.080 people directly accountable to us is a better way of doing things so look i'm not happy about the 0.61

00:31:49.380 fishing deal i'm very unhappy about northern ireland being cast out there are some ridiculous

00:31:54.080 things going on um you know with goods at our borders but overall overall we're in a good place

00:32:01.420 And, you know, it's interesting, isn't it? Just a few days ago, we've learned that the 25 percent tariff on Scotch whisky, something that really hurts.

00:32:10.920 You know, Scotland's got enough economic problems without that industry, with nearly 50,000 people working in and around Scotch whisky,

00:32:18.660 that because we've left the European Union, we've been able to negotiate that tariff being suspended.

00:32:24.440 So I think there are lots of arguments and lots of reasons that will say to us as the years go by that Brexit was the right thing to do.

00:32:32.560 And I think those debates and those questions will now be asked in European capitals as well.

00:32:37.520 And what do you think is going to be the future, Nigel, of the European Union?

00:32:40.700 Do you think that they were going to go on and become this federation of European states, which is what they want?

00:32:47.500 or do you think that the kibosh has been placed on it

00:32:50.440 because of the pandemic

00:32:51.660 and the fact that a lot of these countries

00:32:54.140 have their own Frexit

00:32:55.840 or whatever it may be movement to leave?

00:32:59.480 Well, they've already gone a long way, haven't they?

00:33:01.160 I mean, you know, think about it.

00:33:02.140 You know, why is the speed limit for lorries

00:33:03.780 on our roads 56 miles an hour?

00:33:06.100 Because it's 80 kilometres.

00:33:08.480 You know, that was set in Brussels.

00:33:10.120 You know, why is it that our swipe cards

00:33:11.840 are going up in value?

00:33:13.980 Because we've left the European Union.

00:33:15.600 We're now free to choose our own limits.

00:33:17.180 I mean, the extent to which already the EU governs people's lives is pretty extraordinary.

00:33:25.140 I've always taken the view that the greatness of Europe as a continent is the incredible linguistic and cultural diversity that exists within it.

00:33:38.080 You know, drive a thousand miles across the Midwest of America.

00:33:42.000 I mean, every gas station is the same.

00:33:44.440 You know, everything's the same.

00:33:46.500 You drive 100 miles across Europe.

00:33:48.560 You meet completely different people eating different types of cheese.

00:33:52.560 I mean, that's the beauty of Europe is that it is so diverse.

00:33:56.500 And provided that it's democratic, it'll be a peaceful Europe too.

00:34:03.180 And I think in many ways, post-1945, and I mean, don't forget, we weren't occupied, were we?

00:34:10.460 We didn't live through what many of these people lived through in two world wars. Occupation, massacre of tens of millions of people. And the conclusion that was drawn was that the existence of nation states had led to these terrible wars.

00:34:29.180 so what we have to do is to abolish nation states but at no point to tell the public

00:34:34.700 that's what the plan is i mean that's where the eu started and it's not the existence of nation

00:34:40.480 states that causes war in fact you're actually more likely to have wars if you have a if you

00:34:46.200 have a remote you know bureaucracy that you can't vote for and can't remove provided nation states

00:34:53.400 are democratic, you will have peace. I can't think of a single example of two mature functioning

00:35:01.240 democracies going to war with each other. And that is something I think we should be thinking about

00:35:06.500 very, very hard when it comes to the future of Europe. Nigel, and moving on now, talking about

00:35:12.480 mature functioning democracies, one of the things that I think we'll probably disagree most on is

00:35:17.100 your mate, Donald Trump. Now, no one here on the show has this sort of instinctive aversion to him

00:35:24.700 where he's the devil incarnate and whatever. But I have to say, and there's plenty of people who

00:35:29.920 are fans of Trump who watch our show, and we have the same respect for them as we do for the rest

00:35:34.000 of our audience. But were you not troubled, Nigel? You just talked about how the establishment in

00:35:40.240 this country refused to accept the results of the referendum. Were you not troubled by Donald

00:35:44.920 trump's rhetoric about the fake news election uh the election was stolen it was all a fraud

00:35:51.420 resulting in people being in washington resulting in people storming the capital poor woman got shot

00:35:57.840 over it for really nothing they were never going to change anything did you not regret in any way

00:36:02.920 your support for him in that moment so let's talk about double standards shall we yeah let's let's

00:36:09.320 talk about double standards, beginning on November the 8th, 2016. And for the next four years,

00:36:18.600 the Democrats, CNN, and the New York Times did everything they could to delegitimize

00:36:25.480 Trump's election victory. I agree with you completely. I agree with you.

00:36:29.960 I agree. It was endless. Let me just pause you there just for one reason, which is we've covered

00:36:35.860 all of that on the show a lot. We've talked about BLM and Antifa violence a lot. This is all things

00:36:42.440 on which we can agree, actually. But Trump, what he did after the last election, do you not think

00:36:49.500 that was also responsible? Look, I said in mid-August, all right, in mid-August, I was on

00:37:02.380 Steve Bannon's show in Washington he said what's going to happen with the election I said well

00:37:07.560 before the virus I thought Trump would win by a landslide I said but now what I can see for the

00:37:13.860 first time in American history is the mass transfer to postal voting to absentee postal voting I said

00:37:23.520 I'll tell you what I think will happen Trump will win on the day comfortably but lose as we get the

00:37:29.700 count back over the next few days. I have witnessed at first hand how the postal voting system

00:37:38.900 is wide open to fraud and abuse in this country. I've seen it. I've complained about it for 20

00:37:46.420 years. It is not a safe system. It's why France effectively has just stopped it completely.

00:37:52.980 Was Trump right to question the integrity of postal ballots? Yes. Was he right to point out

00:38:04.420 that somehow the Republican Party had won seats across the state legislatures, had won seats

00:38:13.180 in the House of Representatives, and that somehow this mass vote for Biden in the big cities

00:38:20.500 looked anomalous yes of course he was quite right to do it was it given the febrile atmosphere that

00:38:29.380 was that was around was it wise to do a rally on the 6th of january in washington dc no i don't

00:38:39.460 think it was but i again i mean the way that that speech he gave that day was twisted and manipulated

00:38:47.520 but the media was quite something you know he said to them go in peace some of them chose not to

00:38:52.240 um so i yeah i do think the 6th of january rally was a mistake just given how febrile it was

00:38:59.960 but i think he is in in many ways uh the most misquoted the most misinterpreted political

00:39:06.960 figure that i've ever seen and i'll tell you what right now if you live in london right now

00:39:12.920 you are getting letters almost bullying you to go onto a postal vote register. And I think this

00:39:19.240 election integrity is going to become a massive issue in both British and American politics.

00:39:25.880 But do you not think, Nigel, that some of Donald Trump's rhetoric was inflammatory,

00:39:31.740 and as a result that riled people up? And in a way, you could argue that type of backlash

00:39:36.520 was inevitable after you spent months questioning the veracity of the election.

00:39:41.600 I think if you look at his words, if you look at his words on the day, they weren't. However,

00:39:47.960 however, I think Rudy Giuliani's words were very questionable. Yeah, very questionable indeed.

00:39:54.600 The thing that troubled me about it as well, Nigel, you know, we've had plenty of pro-Trump

00:40:00.060 guests on the show and we give everybody a fair hearing as we've given you. But with Trump,

00:40:06.480 When that happened, I started to get a sort of cult of personality vibe off the whole thing, how some people were reacting.

00:40:15.040 People were claiming that it was actually BLM infiltrators who'd stormed all of this sort of crazy stuff.

00:40:21.520 And that's when I went, hold on a second.

00:40:23.660 These really these people, some of these people really believe all this crazy nonsense.

00:40:27.960 And that troubled me. Did that trouble you?

00:40:31.220 Yeah, I never bought into any of that. And you wouldn't expect me to.

00:40:34.400 No, of course not.

00:40:35.800 You know, I said two days after the election, I said, however hard the Trump team try to overturn this result, they will not succeed.

00:40:44.240 Knowing the abuses that take place for postal voting and proving them are two different things.

00:40:50.000 You're talking to somebody that lost a court case in 2019 over postal voting in Peterborough.

00:40:55.940 So I always thought I always thought that he would lose and it wouldn't be possible to prove it.

00:41:01.840 Look, you say cult of personality. He's brought together the Republican Party in a way that no other human being could have done. He's broadened the appeal of the Republican Party in a way that no other leader has been able to do.

00:41:24.540 and you know you look at the rising share of black and hispanic voters now turning up voting for trump

00:41:30.760 and the republican party you look at the class base there are many more working class people

00:41:37.580 voting republican than they did before now i know that i know that in the middle class suburbs they

00:41:43.120 find him a little bit rich for their for their diet but whichever way you cut this

00:41:49.140 you know i've seen it i've seen it on the ground this guy has a level of personal support that is

00:41:56.300 phenomenal and we're now moving into a new phase and this is i think this is interesting guys

00:42:01.500 so when hillary lost in 2016 the democrats effectively did not have a leader for the

00:42:07.620 next few years you know schumer and pelosi would speak for the democrats cnn and the new york times

00:42:15.720 effectively became the opposition. What you've now got is a leader of the Republican Party

00:42:23.340 in place as an opposition leader. And I think, you know, you saw his opening speech at CPAC,

00:42:31.440 and I think he's going to prove to be a very, very effective opposition leader. I really do.

00:42:37.440 Do you think he's going to run again in 2024?

00:42:40.080 Do you know something? Every US president that goes into the White House, when they leave after

00:42:44.760 four years or eight years they've aged about 30 years they're virtually stretched out after the

00:42:51.140 experience trump looks fitter and more energized uh you know now that he did in 2016 when he went

00:43:00.360 there um he i mean he will face a choice won't he he will certainly lead the party up to the

00:43:10.560 midterms in 2022 all right i'm i'm absolutely certain of that he will then have to decide

00:43:16.580 whether he wants to do it again or whether he wants to become the kingmaker um my my sense of

00:43:23.940 him and who he is and the and they love him or hate him the phenomenal drive i mean this this

00:43:32.100 guy is just amazing i mean you know i know a lot of people that work for him i mean none of them

00:43:37.060 could even keep up with him. He's just extraordinary. My sense is that he intends to run again, yeah.

00:43:46.720 Francis, how is your cyber security? I've got a virus from an unnamed website. Of course you do.

00:43:52.720 You're not alone, Francis. During the pandemic, British online infrastructure has faced an

00:43:57.800 astronomical rise in targeted cyber attacks, which is what I'm sure happened to you. That is dreadful.

00:44:03.580 What can I do to defend myself?

00:44:06.120 That is where Pocket Seam come in. 1.00

00:44:08.200 They offer businesses like ours a special solution that alerts us to hackers,

00:44:12.800 crackers and malicious employees.

00:44:15.080 Like Anton.

00:44:16.120 Not only that, they are the only seam provider to offer pay-as-you-go cyber defence

00:44:21.640 for companies that are British-based.

00:44:23.920 Absolutely, and they're from Doncaster, so they need the work.

00:44:27.220 You say that.

00:44:28.100 Actually, they have kept their prices flat during the pandemic

00:44:31.080 to make sure companies can get the protection they need.

00:44:34.500 PocketSEAM are offering Trigonometry fans a 10% discount.

00:44:38.560 All you got to do is hit them up by email at info at pocketSEAM.co.uk

00:44:43.220 and make sure the subject of that email is Trigonometry

00:44:46.900 and they will give you your 10% discount for managed cybersecurity.

00:44:50.140 That email again is I-M-F-O at P-O-C-K-E-T-S-I-E-M.co.uk

00:45:00.300 and don't forget to have trigonometry in your subject line

00:45:03.720 so you get your 10% discount.

00:45:06.100 Can I just say if you needed that spell,

00:45:07.940 you really shouldn't be running a business.

00:45:11.180 And Nigel, we've seen Trump lose the election.

00:45:14.840 We've seen Brexit come to fruition.

00:45:17.540 This has been all under the umbrella of right-wing populism.

00:45:21.380 I don't know if you agree with it or if you disagree with it.

00:45:23.380 But do you think that particular movement

00:45:24.860 that you and Trump were at the helm of

00:45:26.480 has now run its course

00:45:28.140 and we're now going to see a different political movement take the helm?

00:45:33.560 No, I don't at all, actually.

00:45:35.560 I mean, it's called right-wing populism,

00:45:37.780 but actually a lot of the policies aren't right-wing at all.

00:45:40.200 And a lot of the supporters, I mean, look at this country.

00:45:42.740 Who were the people voting?

00:45:44.060 Who were the people turning up for UKIP and the Brexit Party?

00:45:46.460 Lots of them. Old Labour voters.

00:45:49.900 You know, I was like the gateway drug for Boris Johnson, wasn't I?

00:45:53.820 You know, once they'd broken that link with the Labour Party,

00:45:57.780 they were okay to move on and vote Tory in 2019.

00:46:01.460 No, I think that one of the lessons

00:46:04.380 of the great shocks with the Brexit vote

00:46:09.500 and with the Trump vote

00:46:11.640 is that the liberal establishment

00:46:14.360 learnt nothing from it at all.

00:46:16.720 They are intent on continuing to pursue the same course.

00:46:20.600 They've added to it a new level of wokery

00:46:23.280 that leads so many people just shaking their heads and wondering what's going on so no

00:46:31.460 far from it i think i think this movement that says the capital cities are out of touch

00:46:39.120 with flyover states or middle england or whatever the equivalent in the end is going to be in italy

00:46:44.660 or france or germany no no no i i i i i think trump losing was kind of a hiccup um along that

00:46:53.160 path. I think politics, Western politics has fundamentally changed and I really believe it'll

00:46:58.020 go on doing so. And moving on now to China, which you, I think you would say is the next big issue

00:47:04.480 of our time. Could you explain why you believe that and what are the challenges we're going to

00:47:09.120 face with China in particular led by the CCP? Well, I mean, if we, you know, if we talked about

00:47:16.400 a country that imprisons hundreds of thousands of one of its minorities in re-education camps

00:47:25.020 um that actually enforces sterilization on rather large numbers of women i mean that alone

00:47:32.280 if we were to raise as an issue for somebody that might be a great trading partner and friend of

00:47:37.740 ours going forwards you know the red light would go up immediately but it doesn't we have the

00:47:43.300 the handover deal with Hong Kong where their autonomy was supposed to be guaranteed till 2047

00:47:50.780 and where democracy is literally being snuffed out with every week that goes by and yet we say

00:47:56.920 very little we have the origin of this virus that has done the world so much harm and yet no one

00:48:06.040 dares really criticize the extent of the cover-ups that clearly took place in Wuhan. Why is it

00:48:15.700 that China is able to buy up mineral resources, to gain influence in our country, to be allowed

00:48:24.220 to be part of the 5G network, at least initially? Why is this all happening? And this is my take

00:48:31.200 on it all right they have very very cleverly subverted many of the ruling classes of our

00:48:42.340 country and i'm talking about senior civil servants senior political figures big business

00:48:49.840 men and women you know just look at the just look at the advisory board of huawei over the last five

00:48:55.520 years it's a roll call of all of those people and you know the prime minister i mean he has a father

00:49:05.400 that has a very good relationship with beijing and with the former ambassador in london a brother

00:49:11.320 that you know has worked for goldman sachs in beijing now works for them in hong kong and when

00:49:18.800 he's asked about the arrest of the democracy activist says we must understand this is china

00:49:23.260 now. He's got another brother that when he was university's minister, twinned Reading University

00:49:29.640 with one of the technology colleges in China. I mean, is it any surprise that Boris declares

00:49:36.880 himself to be a Sinophile? Because all the influences around him are pro-China, which is 0.84

00:49:43.100 led by the CCP. So I just think that the more we talk about this issue, the more appalled people

00:49:51.820 will be i mean for example if i order on amazon right it does not tell me when i'm buying a

00:50:00.220 product where it's made so it's quite difficult for me even not to buy goods from china even if

00:50:07.040 i want to and you know the belt and road strategy that's been outlined very clearly by president

00:50:15.020 Xi. You know, that is an attempt to basically to take over the world. And it's happening

00:50:21.140 without much comment. And I think that poses a great threat to us. I really do.

00:50:26.900 I find it interesting as someone who comes from the Soviet Union, you know,

00:50:29.700 some of the stuff that the Chinese are doing now to some of their citizens are what happened in my 1.00

00:50:34.060 country. But at that time, people didn't really know it was happening until Solzhenitsyn came out

00:50:39.160 and wrote the Gulag Archipelago and word finally got out. But now we know and we still seemingly

00:50:44.400 don't care. Is it just the economics, Nigel? We're so tied in that, frankly, the ordinary

00:50:51.880 consumer in the West, yes, we sort of care about the Uyghurs, but we want the cheap iPhone. 1.00

00:50:58.680 Well, actually, some of the polling on this is very interesting. You know, some of the polling

00:51:02.420 is beginning to show a shift where consumers are beginning to say they are prepared to pay a bit

00:51:07.360 more, not to buy goods from China. But it's quite difficult to avoid them in many areas, particularly

00:51:13.160 if the origin of manufacture is hidden, as it is with so many online sales.

00:51:18.360 There is a shift going on, but it's not been more rapid

00:51:23.500 because very few people in high command in our country are prepared to say so.

00:51:29.200 And not in every case.

00:51:31.860 But in many cases, the self-same people that were happy to sell us out to Brussels

00:51:37.240 are happy to sell us out to Beijing.

00:51:39.380 Nigel well before we move on towards the end of the interview and ask our typical last question

00:51:45.860 I was just what do you make of Boris Johnson

00:51:49.240 well look you know he's a he's a jolly fellow

00:51:55.760 he's quite good at spreading around a bit of optimism

00:52:02.660 you make him sound like a dog Nigel

00:52:06.260 tears you up sits on your lap a new wallpaper that's causing all the trouble

00:52:12.260 um i i mean i i have honestly got

00:52:17.940 no idea what he stands for none absolutely no idea what he stands for he certainly isn't

00:52:26.860 conservative in any way he pretends to be an election time but he's sort of a metro liberal

00:52:33.360 really isn't it yeah and that's kind of where the conservative party has gone um it was exactly that

00:52:41.680 under cameron and osborne and i always think when you look at the sort of coterie of people

00:52:48.900 i mean cummings was an exception but but perhaps but when you look at the coterie of people

00:52:53.940 um you know around boris uh you know we kind of are back to the oxbridge posh set running the

00:53:01.580 country and i think they're really very very disconnected but hey they said they'd get brexit

00:53:08.040 done it's imperfect but they have they've got everything wrong with the pandemic everything

00:53:15.240 wrong and yet the vaccine is saving them um but boris's boris's greatest attribute

00:53:23.260 and it's really back to it's really back to napoleon not wanting good generals but wanting

00:53:30.200 lucky generals is that first Boris Johnson had to face Jeremy Corbyn and now he's got some bloke

00:53:38.780 called Starmer who most of the electorate couldn't pick out of a lineup so there is so there is no

00:53:45.900 real effective opposition so I suspect I suspect that he'll be prime minister as long as he wants

00:53:52.140 to be. And Nigel does that mean we're in political crisis then if we've got no effective opposition?

00:53:57.160 um i think politics is permanently in crisis in many ways um yeah i mean look the labor party

00:54:07.320 needs to decide what it is uh and and you can see that starmer tries to ride both horses at once

00:54:15.660 they've got to work out what they actually are um you could argue you could argue

00:54:24.180 that far from being in crisis we're in a period of relative stability you know we had crisis

00:54:32.400 didn't we perpetual crisis really from 2016 to the end of 2019 it went on and on and on and on

00:54:39.140 and on we're now in a period of stability that doesn't mean we'll get good government it doesn't

00:54:44.680 mean we'll get good scrutiny but the odd thing is that large sections of the electorate just don't

00:54:50.940 care anymore. They've lived through the emotional trauma of Brexit. And frankly, what do they want

00:54:57.360 to do? They want to get out of lockdown, get into the sunshine and enjoy their lives. Politics has

00:55:03.060 slipped way down people's agendas from where it was. So we are in for a period of relatively quiet

00:55:09.780 politics. Well, it's possibly no bad thing, to be honest with you, given how heated it has got.

00:55:16.180 But Nigel, thank you for coming on the show. We've got one final question for you, which is

00:55:20.240 always the same, which is what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society that

00:55:25.600 we really should be? The indoctrination in our schools. And it's not just in universities. It's

00:55:31.440 not just at secondary level. Actually, from the ages of seven or eight, there are all sorts of

00:55:38.120 very pernicious ideas being fed into the minds of young children about this country, their identity.

00:55:45.600 And I think we need to have a good, honest, open debate about it, because I'm very disturbed by some of it.

00:55:51.760 Well, let's talk about that a little bit. Francis and I will have a lot to say and a lot of questions to ask you.

00:55:56.900 That's an issue we cover a lot. And what you're really referring to is the culture war, the battle over gender identity, the battle over our history, the battle over the heritage,

00:56:08.020 the way we should think about Britain and the rest of the West is in a sort of balanced way, or do we only focus on the negatives?

00:56:15.600 uh why do you think that is such an important issue uh because i think we're poisoning the

00:56:20.940 minds of our young children uh i i think we're we're not just poisoning them but we're also

00:56:27.500 as a direct result of all of this dividing everybody up you know martin luther king

00:56:34.380 who i think we all admire not just for his oratory which was my goodness me extraordinary

00:56:39.920 but for his message you know i want my four children to be judged not by the color of their

00:56:46.380 skin but by the content of their character and now we're saying ah you're black you're in that

00:56:52.940 group you're asian you're in that group you're transgender you're in that group we're dividing 0.98

00:56:57.820 everybody up we're not bringing people together and to to try and tell white people that somehow

00:57:05.660 they are guilty and on some of the wilder fringes of academia but somehow the united kingdom

00:57:12.880 great britain i mean you know we're as bad as nazi germany according to some of these people

00:57:19.620 this is marxist poison that is being fed into the minds of young people and of course it you know 0.99

00:57:27.280 its goal is to bring down the state entirely to bring down capitalism completely and yet

00:57:33.760 it's not being opposed because we don't have people in politics robust enough to stand up to

00:57:40.280 this stuff and you know you've seen it you've covered it you know i mean when i mean it goes

00:57:45.640 beyond schools for goodness sake when senior police officers take the knee to an organization

00:57:50.680 that wants to defund them i think we've got a bit of a problem so yeah i do think the whole culture

00:57:55.800 war stuff uh i i think it is desperately important that we fight this and if we don't

00:58:02.320 we'll finish up with a society bitterly divided and with more enmity than we've ever seen before

00:58:09.180 and on that upbeat note thank you very much nigel for coming on the show um if people want to follow

00:58:17.320 you where's the best place to do you have a youtube channel now as well don't you they can

00:58:21.220 get me on youtube they can get me wherever they like i'm everywhere twitter youtube facebook

00:58:25.620 websites google me i'm there okay fun nigel thank you very much for coming on it's been a great

00:58:31.040 pleasure chatting with you and thank you all for watching we will see you very soon with another

00:58:35.340 episode uh or a live stream all of them at 7 p.m uk time take care see you soon guys

00:58:40.520 We'll be right back.

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TRIGGERnometry - March 10, 2021

Nigel Farage - How I Took on the Establishment and Won

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