TRIGGERnometry - ＂No Race Has a Monopoly on Oppression＂ - Inaya Folarin Iman

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00:00:19.120 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:22.240 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:23.620 I'm Constantine Kissing.

00:00:24.700 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:30.620 Our brilliant guest today is the writer, columnist and the director of the Free Speech Union,

00:00:35.220 Inaya Fallon, Iman. Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:37.340 Thank you for having me.

00:00:38.400 It's good to have you here. For anyone who doesn't know who you are,

00:00:40.860 and we're delighted to have you on, by the way.

00:00:42.460 We've been chatting about you for a while.

00:00:44.040 Your commentary on the recent stuff that's been going on has been fantastic.

00:00:48.220 Tell everybody, who are you? How are you? Where you are?

00:00:51.040 What has been the journey that brings you sitting to this chair here in this very hot room?

00:00:56.300 Well, so I was I was born in London. I'm a daughter of Nigerian immigrants to the UK, but I was raised in a single parent household.

00:01:05.260 And my mum, she worked really, really hard to send me and my sister to kind of fee paying schools.

00:01:09.740 Then halfway through, I left and I went to a kind of local comprehensive school.

00:01:14.960 And after that, went to a grammar school.

00:01:17.000 And so from a really young age, I've, I guess, been exposed to various different socioeconomic aspects of British society.

00:01:24.180 And that made me really interested from really young in terms of what kind of values, principles and cultures might impact and shape the way that people perceive themselves and their place within society.

00:01:34.520 So that really started very young in terms of my interest in politics.

00:01:38.320 But now, you know, through a whole range of situations, I've become a free speech campaigner.

00:01:44.180 And I think that that really sparked, particularly when I went to university, I think that's where I really became radicalised.

00:01:49.540 I've always been really interested in ideas, but as we've seen with this kind of free speech culture wars and campus wars,

00:01:56.140 I was really surprised to see the kind of really limiting climate in university when it came to free speech.

00:02:02.180 One event in particular, I think, is what really sparked my interest.

00:02:05.620 And there was this whole movement at my university in regards to why is my curriculum white? Decolonise the curriculum. 0.57

00:02:11.440 and I think it's a really interesting movement in terms of broadening our understanding

00:02:15.800 of the kind of way in which race relations came to be in the UK but what I found at university

00:02:21.800 it was one particular narrative and I posed the question of whether or not this was useful

00:02:26.180 and I received a huge huge backlash at university and then I started a series of kind of free speech

00:02:32.320 debates on campus and again there was so much controversy and kind of ridicule in relation to

00:02:38.620 these free speech conversations, which I understood was essentially the fundamental bedrock of our

00:02:43.820 democracy. And how do we kind of move forward in terms of conversations about race and progress

00:02:48.880 within society if we aren't able to even understand the very foundation of our democracy? And so that's

00:02:54.760 kind of where, particularly at university, where I really became interested in this conversation

00:02:58.520 about free speech. And that's kind of brought me on to conversations about identity, politics,

00:03:03.140 agency, democracy and things like that. And so you also work for the Free Speech Union with Toby

00:03:09.740 Young. Why is it that we need a free speech union? Because don't we live in a liberal democracy? Can't

00:03:14.260 I go and say whatever I feel without repercussion? Yeah, I mean, it's really, really astonishing how

00:03:19.660 little I found that people genuinely understand free speech. I mean, the conversation particularly

00:03:26.560 right now about free speech is often framed in relation to hate and spreading hate and how it's

00:03:31.300 kind of somehow in contradiction to the pursuit of liberation of minorities when I often understand

00:03:37.300 understood it as free speech is almost is very nature to protect minorities you know you don't

00:03:43.200 need free speech if you are necessarily the majority because you're backed up by power and

00:03:47.360 privilege it is the views of the minority whether that's you know religious or ethnic or otherwise

00:03:52.160 where kind of free speech is so important and so for me again that's why I kind of became really

00:03:58.860 interested in it again because I'm told because of my identity because I'm a black woman this that

00:04:03.660 and the other that I'm meant to have a particular worldview and a particular attitude and I found

00:04:08.700 that you know free speech is actually so fundamental to pursuing transformational change

00:04:13.320 within society and so again I felt that I had a kind of moral obligation to be part of reshaping

00:04:19.260 and redefining the free speech conversation in the UK and that's kind of why I got involved in

00:04:24.060 the free speech union. And we're recording this at a quite interesting cultural moment,

00:04:28.720 to say the very least. The things seem to be really kicking off. And I thought that the issue

00:04:35.640 with free speech, as you know, and, you know, we've talked in the past, the issue with free

00:04:40.120 speech has been there for some time now, as you talk about, you know, at university when you were

00:04:44.880 there. But am I right in thinking that it seems to, you know, I don't think the last few weeks

00:04:50.040 have made it better have they i mean it's really been astonishing i again the racial conversation

00:04:55.760 is not necessarily one that has interested me from my upbringing um i well why not because

00:05:00.960 we're told that all black people are oppressed you know you experience racism on a daily basis

00:05:06.500 and look of course there's racism i've experienced racism you know you haven't no no mate not with 0.98

00:05:11.380 this voice if i give racism not experience it you're just you're just too pink for racism that's 0.77

00:05:16.920 but you know look of course there are racist people in the world right so how is it that you

00:05:21.360 know you've managed to avoid this conversation you know you've managed to grow up to to go through

00:05:26.420 university to to get a job to to be a prominent uh you know speaker on these issues uh and and

00:05:32.440 a commentator in in our public society without becoming embroiled in this in this racial way

00:05:38.660 of thinking why are you so different well it's really interesting and you know i started off

00:05:43.380 of my upbringing I think that that is really what has shaped me you know despite on paper you know

00:05:47.740 my mum came to this country as an immigrant all of these types of things we didn't grow up necessarily 0.97

00:05:51.480 rich but from such a young age I was inculcated with this view that you know you can achieve

00:05:56.260 whatever you want you know the sky's the limit and I never had all of these kind of racial hang-ups

00:06:01.400 and so that never became how I perceived myself in the world and how you know what my potentials

00:06:07.660 were defined by and so I never thought that you know that is necessarily the kind of way in which

00:06:12.540 that I should necessarily engage in politics but it's become really important now because I've

00:06:16.840 been so worried about the deeply what I would argue is disempowering and demoralizing message

00:06:22.080 that we are sending to a whole generation of young people that are living in a society that

00:06:26.140 has made leaps and bounds when it comes to race relations not just in the last 30 or 40 years but

00:06:31.020 in the last 10 years there's so many schemes programs um drives to increase representation

00:06:36.740 and all of a sudden at the point where I would argue we can actually say yes there's more to be

00:06:41.200 done but perhaps in all the things that have happened in the last 20 years the race relations

00:06:46.240 situation I would argue is one of the few things that we have triumphed and achieved and at this

00:06:51.400 very moment we are now being told that our society couldn't be more racist more sexist

00:06:56.960 this cesspool and so I find it really dangerous this narrative that is being told and there's

00:07:03.100 many studies that have actually kind of come out as well that confirming just the actual corrosive

00:07:08.400 nature of this particular narrative so there's been you know studies that have come out which

00:07:12.580 show that for example black men in particular but black people are more likely to be in high

00:07:17.520 security mental health institutions if they have contact with mental health services and many

00:07:22.720 people think oh that's an example of institutional racism well actually when it's being investigated

00:07:27.040 further what we're finding is that this narrative about the system being against you makes people

00:07:34.400 interact with that system differently and perceive that, you know, a lack of trust and

00:07:38.600 a lack of kind of cohesive relationship with that institution, which makes them more likely

00:07:42.600 to resist. Similar with the kind of stigma that exists in regards to mental health in

00:07:47.560 many of these kind of ethnic minority communities. On top of that, we've seen it with regards

00:07:52.000 to the justicism in the prison system. Many people, for example, are less likely to plead

00:07:56.860 guilty for crimes because they are mistrusting of their lawyers and things like that. So

00:08:03.020 what we're actually finding in a lot of these situations, this particular narrative about

00:08:07.040 Britain being institutionally and structured in a racist way is actually producing a self-fulfilling

00:08:13.300 prophecy. And I think that that's, as I said, a really demoralising message to send to young

00:08:19.020 people. And that's why, you know, I in some ways use myself as an example of despite all of these

00:08:24.620 things on paper, you know, I've been able to achieve that and absolutely racism exists. But

00:08:29.220 there's much more to the story than what I think is being told.

00:08:32.360 And why is it that we don't challenge the narrative?

00:08:34.120 So you've just put forward a reason as to why these things exist,

00:08:37.540 why the stats are where they are.

00:08:39.080 But why is it that we don't challenge the narrative

00:08:41.960 that is happening right the way through social media and so on?

00:08:44.560 I think there are quite a few reasons for that.

00:08:46.440 I think that there are ideological reasons in terms of what I would argue

00:08:50.600 many of the philosophies that underpin the worldviews

00:08:55.200 that are shaping our society today.

00:08:56.700 So those are things like intersectionality, critical race theory. So, for example, in critical race theory, it's framed that racism permeates every single aspect of our life.

00:09:06.340 So there's almost nothing that we can do about it. And that's very much shaping the conversation about racism in academia.

00:09:12.180 And I think that that's very much filtering off to every other aspect of society.

00:09:16.560 But on top of that, there's an entire industry now that in some ways has a vested interest in perpetuating this narrative.

00:09:23.160 And I think this is quite a sensitive topic. I definitely think it needs to be said. You know, I've spoken about, you know, every HR department having an equality, diversity and equity officer.

00:09:33.760 There are many whole organisations now that have that are solely kind of invested in this particular narrative about racism existing and in a really deep and profound way.

00:09:44.840 And yes, it does exist. But there's a whole kind of structure within society that now are embedded in perpetuating this particular narrative.

00:09:52.520 If you have whole academic fields about, you know, race, racism in Britain.

00:09:56.800 And I think that there's not many people that feel comfortable to be able to kind of challenge that when it's become so embedded and permeating in the climate that we have.

00:10:07.800 But on top of that, I think there is a kind of overcorrection.

00:10:10.600 I think that many people are genuinely well-meaning.

00:10:13.260 They're hearing black people saying that, you know, the way this is the way that society is.

00:10:19.260 And so obviously, as we want to care about individuals that are making these claims about society, it's our intention is obviously want to believe that and to alleviate that.

00:10:31.040 But I think that there is genuinely a problem in kind of accepting this whole narrative wholesale.

00:10:36.860 So one of the things that has really emerged recently is this whole idea that you as a white person or you as a this person can never really understand me as a black woman.

00:10:46.060 listen to this bit this is for you mate and i think this is an incredibly pernicious idea

00:10:52.560 i actually think that this um is so destructive because it unpacks and kind of removes the very

00:10:59.640 basis of this whole idea of universalism and humanism that what even though we might have

00:11:04.680 different experiences what we share is our common humanity and we all feel alienation we might all

00:11:08.940 feel you know trauma but ultimately we all experience those things and so we can put

00:11:14.560 ourselves in other people's shoes and from my experience again it doesn't resonate with what

00:11:19.240 I've experienced some of the most profound and interesting conversations I've had about race

00:11:22.800 have been with people of other races and so I think that we really have to challenge this idea

00:11:28.620 that you know someone's subjective experience is the only valid way of understanding the world

00:11:35.080 around us we have to defend this notion of an objective truth we have to defend that there are

00:11:40.180 things that we can find out and research and look at the complexities of why that situation is

00:11:44.820 and accept that we can all understand that as human beings and not let just one section of

00:11:49.620 society be able to define what specific aspects mean you see this is where i would agree with

00:11:56.220 with what you're saying in the sense that i think that's the right way to go but i wonder whether

00:12:00.820 we've just gone too far in the other direction that it's not possible any longer i'll give you

00:12:04.820 an example uh you know a friend of ours who watched our interview with aisha can be who you

00:12:10.520 know uh i sent it to a friend of his and his friend said yeah i really enjoyed it because

00:12:16.060 it was a black woman talking about her experience you're shaking your head in disgust but but you

00:12:22.720 know what i mean like the majority of people have been in calc you know indoctrinated with this idea

00:12:28.360 that that is how we think and i'll be honest with you i think you know us we we've been

00:12:32.920 indoctrinated with it as well like i haven't i'm very woke no i don't know about that mate like

00:12:38.060 i wonder whether let's be honest if aisha was white or if you were white we would have you 1.00

00:12:44.760 as readily on our show as we do when you're not white do you see what i'm saying no i do understand 1.00

00:12:50.420 that and obviously there is some validity to the notion that you know being obviously of a particular

00:12:56.540 race and if you're having a conversation about things that affect that race then they're going

00:13:00.200 to be more invested in that particular conversation but it's but it's more than that I think there's

00:13:04.740 one thing kind of listening to other people but there's another thing as homogenizing them or

00:13:10.680 becoming a kind of spokesperson and that's one of the things again that I think has been quite toxic

00:13:14.840 I've seen essentially a kind of concerted effort to create an all-encompassing mythology about what

00:13:20.760 it means to be black in the world today but particularly Britain and essentializing that 0.98

00:13:24.240 narrative to be one of racism oppression and victimhood and the problem with this kind of

00:13:28.640 homogenous view is, then when you have ethnic minorities, you know, Minira Merza, myself,

00:13:33.820 other people that don't experience or don't feel that this particular narrative speaks to what

00:13:39.940 they've experienced, then we are then, you know, framed as the other. And so ultimately, we need

00:13:45.540 to be able to say, you know, you are speaking for yourself as an individual. And what our individual

00:13:51.840 experience is ultimately what is important and not be solely defined by these categories.

00:13:56.380 And why do you think the debate is so toxic? Because it's not just toxic when, you know, people come out and talk about their own experiences. It's toxic within, for instance, the black community. I mean, it's a ridiculous thing to say. But, you know, somebody like you says their experience and, you know, then you get other people using racist language against you. And you think, why is it that we can't have a simple, honest discussion on these matters?

00:14:19.780 I think that a lot of people are really kind of so if you create, as I said, this all encompassing narrative about what it means to be black and you inculcate that to a whole generation of young people, then their entire identity is then invested in that particular worldview.

00:14:38.220 And so to challenge that becomes more than just kind of having an open, honest conversation.

00:14:43.480 It becomes about essentially challenging how they perceive themselves.

00:14:47.920 And I think that that seems to make people really uncomfortable at a fundamental level.

00:14:52.300 And that's why I think that it's really important now to try and really unpack these essentially fact free stories that are being perpetuated.

00:15:03.020 Or we're going to have a whole group of people that define their entire identity by this kind of victim grievance narrative and internalize that.

00:15:11.060 And then again, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because people start to have a chip on their shoulder.

00:15:15.640 People start to perceive the world around them differently.

00:15:18.320 And again, it's really interesting because I know this from experience.

00:15:22.180 I grew up in a relatively conservative household, but for a very short period of time, I was really interested in these woke ideas.

00:15:29.300 And I started spending a lot of time with people that perpetuated them.

00:15:32.500 And I saw how it actually changed me. And that was really interesting. I think that's one of the reasons why I think I'm quite passionate about it is that, you know, I started to see, you know, normal interactions with people as perhaps prejudicial or like that people were, you know, judging me based off of my race and that society itself was structured against me and that almost there was nothing that I could do about it.

00:15:55.500 And this is some of the things that are being told and people do believe.

00:15:59.000 And I think that that massively changes what you believe is possible for yourself.

00:16:03.280 So I think that we have to separate people's, as I said before, subjective judgments with what the facts of the matter is.

00:16:12.140 And that's why I'm so adamant about telling the truth about what the situation is.

00:16:16.440 So some of the things that have been said is, you know, all these different aspects of society, this notion of systemic racism.

00:16:24.000 But when you actually unpack many of these concepts and the different layers of society, the picture is much more complex.

00:16:30.320 So let's take, for example, education. The situation for British Nigerian children is almost completely different to the situation for British Jamaican children.

00:16:38.320 Oh, yeah. You guys are smashing it, right?

00:16:40.820 Look how proud she is.

00:16:42.340 Yeah. West Africa. I used to be a teacher. West African goes one of the highest achieving subgroups in all of education.

00:16:47.640 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, yeah, exactly. Higher than the average in the in the country.

00:16:52.600 But the situation is different for British Caribbean boys. So why is that? That can't be solely down to systemic racism, because we have disparities, quite significant disparities amongst ethnic groups and BME ethnic groups themselves.

00:17:06.080 Similarly, you know, with British Indian people and British Chinese people are actually have a higher average earning than the white British population.

00:17:15.100 Not happy about that.

00:17:16.040 which is going to clip that that's going to be you telling a black woman you're not happy about

00:17:22.760 minorities doing well it's going to make for a great clip and you're getting cancelled well

00:17:27.700 but this is just it kind of just proves then that there is so much more to the conversation and so

00:17:33.180 people are jumping on this simplistic narrative um and what it's doing is you know having these

00:17:38.480 very blanket one size fits all solutions which um are ultimately counterproductive and so what

00:17:44.300 i'm really interested in is what is not being talked about in this conversation you know we

00:17:48.740 all talk about racism and all of these types of things but very few people are talking about

00:17:52.960 notions of agency culture personal responsibility and class and i think these are quite a complex

00:17:58.960 assortment of factors that are massively if not predominantly shaping social outcomes in this

00:18:04.700 country don't you think part of the problem is that people go oh you know black people when the

00:18:08.800 reality is you know african and caribbean are completely different they're different culturally

00:18:12.900 are different in the way they see the world they'd have different values and not just that you know

00:18:17.400 Africa is a very large continent so somebody who is from Mali is going to be essentially very very 1.00

00:18:23.540 different to someone who is Moroccan. Yeah so I think the kind of differences within

00:18:28.420 black groups is I think is a really interesting one so for example particularly people from West

00:18:35.740 Africa most of them are not actually descendants from slaves for example and I think that's quite

00:18:40.760 a big distinction between the Caribbean community and I think some of the legacies in terms of even

00:18:45.820 internalized racism and different issues related to that also play a part in the kind of relationship

00:18:52.520 between how they you know perceive themselves and you know their relationship with Britain

00:18:56.040 for example Caribbean predominantly came to Britain decades before many of the kind of Ghanaian and

00:19:03.120 Nigerian migrants there are still some very strong kind of rooted values in terms of conservatism

00:19:08.580 that permeate many people of African heritage in Britain.

00:19:13.360 So I think that these kinds of things that are shaping the relationship

00:19:19.560 between race and social outcomes in this country are massively being missed.

00:19:24.500 So in some ways, and I don't want to put these words in your mouth,

00:19:26.900 but I'm just curious to explore this.

00:19:28.920 Let's say a first-generation Ghanaian might have more in common

00:19:32.340 with a first-generation Russian immigrant

00:19:34.020 than they might do with a British-born Caribbean person.

00:19:38.020 Is that kind of? Yeah, no, exactly. I do think that that is the case. And so that's why I think this kind of blanket systemic racism, institutional racism argument is missing these kinds of nuances and complexities of the situation.

00:19:50.440 And on top of that, what's really interesting, you know, I kind of touched on this notion of agency and personal responsibility, something that I would really like to explore further.

00:19:58.800 Again, it's quite a sensitive topic, but there's a culture within particularly some communities, predominantly black communities of this whole notion of like you're acting white. 0.73

00:20:08.400 And I actually think that some of that actually seems to me to have some connections with this whole Uncle Tom culture that we're seeing, you know, you're a coon, all these kinds of things. 1.00

00:20:19.060 And I just define a few of those things for people who may be less familiar, like we're obviously all very versed in this stuff.

00:20:24.620 But first of all, what does it mean to be acting white? And then talk to us about the whole Uncle Tom phenomenon. 0.57

00:20:29.960 Yeah. So I think it's, you know, I think it seems to happen less when people leave school.

00:20:34.700 But I think it's something that I've seen a lot among school kids, you know, black kids that might be nonconformist or interested in traditionally white type of things.

00:20:44.860 like people say maybe rock music despite the fact that that has often origins as well in like

00:20:49.020 Jimi Hendrix and things like that but things like that a lot of young kids have said oh you're

00:20:54.000 you're acting white and I think that that can actually shape the perception of what black

00:21:01.980 culture is to young people and I think that when they think of what it means to be black in Britain

00:21:08.300 contributed by the community itself

00:21:12.160 is often a very narrow perception

00:21:14.600 of what blackness actually is.

00:21:16.640 And I think that these types of things

00:21:19.300 also have a massive contributing factor

00:21:21.340 into the way blackness is then represented

00:21:24.060 in the wider society.

00:21:25.760 And I think that that's really something

00:21:27.660 that has nothing necessarily to do

00:21:29.720 with white people or whiteness.

00:21:31.580 And that's why I think this conversation

00:21:33.020 needs to be much more internal and reflective

00:21:36.260 in regards to what

00:21:38.300 are we doing as individuals within our own community, so to speak,

00:21:42.280 to perpetuate certain ideas and beliefs and behaviours

00:21:46.020 that could be limiting the way that we perceive our potential?

00:21:50.620 And then talk to us about the whole Uncle Tom thing as well.

00:21:53.560 Yeah, I think particularly in the last few months,

00:21:56.180 this has been something that I've seen grow at a really exponential rate.

00:22:00.960 You know, we've seen it with kind of Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak,

00:22:03.660 or even other ethnic minority people that have become really successful

00:22:07.480 do not perceive themselves as oppressed or victimised, but acknowledge racism exists,

00:22:11.920 but don't feel that they are defined by yet, are claimed to be somehow agents of white supremacy

00:22:17.440 or agents of perpetuating a racist system.

00:22:21.940 And again, I think it's such a limiting perception of what it means to be any of these different groups.

00:22:28.000 Because from my understanding, at least, integration or at least progress to me would be seeing intellectual diversity, ideological diversity amongst all of these different people, that they're no longer solely political based off of their race alone, that their political interests are defined by so much more than that.

00:22:49.000 And so what I'm finding now, the strongest perpetuators of these kind of very rigid stereotypes, these limiting stereotypes, is not coming from the kind of traditional far right kind of white racists.

00:23:00.580 It's coming from this section of the woke left in particular that have a very narrow perception of ethnic minorities.

00:23:08.460 And it's not just a narrow perception. It's an actual denial of, you know, a lot of these ethnic minorities are socially conservative because they're first generation immigrants.

00:23:16.240 No, it's really interesting. And, you know, I hope that going forward, as we have more of these conversations, more and more people will see that actually, you know, the left isn't necessarily the natural home.

00:23:28.820 Now, I don't actually identify as necessarily on the left or the right, but I do think a lot of the conservative values that many immigrant communities do grow up in do seem to find a stronger place in kind of conservatism more broadly.

00:23:40.720 And I really hope that as this kind of conversation progresses, we can see far more intellectual and ideological diversity and political experimentation amongst ethnic minority communities.

00:23:50.720 All right. Well, that concludes about 20 minutes section of the interview where I massively derailed you from talking about the free speech union and what's happening now.

00:23:58.680 And let's go back to that because I do think it's important.

00:24:01.040 The question I asked you at the very beginning was, do you think things have got better with free speech or that they've got worse in the last few weeks with everything that's been going on?

00:24:09.980 I think that it's massively got worse. And I don't say that lightly. And not only do I think it's got worse, I think it's incredibly dangerous, the place that we're in. We are talking about, particularly from the Black Lives Matter narrative in particular, asking, they're calling for quite significant transformational changes of our society. 0.89

00:24:28.560 And none of this can potentially, none of this can possibly happen in a positive way if we are not embedded in an existing social climate where people feel able to come forward, to challenge, to engage in constructive discourse and tell the truth about what they feel.

00:24:44.880 you know people i'm seeing a feeling compelled to lie many people have emailed me and come to me

00:24:49.760 telling me you know that their friends are going to leave them if they don't put a black square or 0.91

00:24:54.280 say black lives matter none of these things are conducive to a constructive and positive forward

00:24:59.240 facing vision you know i want people to tell the truth i want people to tell me when i'm wrong

00:25:04.400 and actually free speech right now is massively in decline and not just from a kind of um

00:25:11.680 you know traditional conception of free speech in relation to conversation but but even that the way

00:25:16.820 in which we are um conceiving of our own history we are seeing this kind of very one-dimensional

00:25:22.520 overly negative characterization of britain and british history which is then shaping

00:25:27.980 again what i've said before this the way in which people are perceiving themselves and i think that

00:25:33.420 um freedom of speech as i said is just so important in regards to obviously the pursuit

00:25:38.940 of higher meaning and truth, you know, the basis of free speech is also this whole idea of obviously

00:25:44.640 as in a democracy, we all have equal power and shape to be able to shape our society. And, you

00:25:49.260 know, free speech is the mechanism to which we can really understand each other. And if we don't

00:25:54.120 really start to defend it and protect it in a meaningful way, I think that we are, we're in

00:25:59.560 kind of really dangerous territory. It's interesting you say, you know, we're in dangerous

00:26:03.140 territory, because thank the Lord that I'm not involved in a corporate environment anymore. But

00:26:07.300 I could imagine, especially with the Black Lives Matter movement, if you have any sort of qualms

00:26:13.360 about this particular movement or the notion of white privilege, you dare not say it aloud in a

00:26:18.100 corporate environment. What I find really interesting, and I've written about this

00:26:22.080 slightly, is the way in which corporations have been so accepting of the Black Lives Matter

00:26:28.660 narrative. And I think a lot of people within Black Lives Matter think that they're really

00:26:31.900 radical and think that they're kind of challenging power structures, but actually that the way in

00:26:36.340 which corporations have been so part and parcel of this process, to me, is a really interesting

00:26:40.720 development in regards to how corporations and just the powers that be, the kind of political,

00:26:47.520 cultural and media establishment, don't actually see Black Lives Matter as a threat. And I think

00:26:52.320 that that's because many of the things that are being pushed forward by Black Lives Matter are 0.52

00:26:57.240 actually incredibly divisive. You know, it's very much this divide and rule game that I would argue

00:27:03.500 undermine solidarity amongst working class people across races and so people are kind of fighting

00:27:09.100 amongst themselves instead of seeing the kind of broader question about the way in which the

00:27:13.220 structures within our society are increasing social injustice and extreme economic inequality

00:27:18.900 for all people not just black people and so it suits the corporate kind of ideology very well

00:27:26.500 but not just because of that but also because it means that they can engage in very superficial

00:27:31.980 gestures of you know putting a black square saying down to white supremacy all of these types of

00:27:37.160 things but the genuinely meaningful horrific wrongs that are going on in the present day

00:27:42.940 perpetuated by many of the kind of corporate interests get ignored by just so that so instead

00:27:50.060 they can just put these kind of very simplistic superficial gestures and you know they get their

00:27:55.320 woke points for that and so I think that I find it very interesting that that wokeness as an

00:28:00.260 ideology seems very comfortable within the corporate realm. And I think that that tells

00:28:04.300 us very much about, you know, if it's really challenging, anything meaningful.

00:28:08.160 In other words, a big company can, you know, put the black square, give some money to Black 0.95

00:28:14.240 Lives Matter while employing people paying the minimum wage in horrible conditions of

00:28:18.440 all colors because they're too busy, you know, engaged in this protest or in this movement

00:28:23.700 as opposed to campaigning for their right to actually be paid better or to have better

00:28:27.400 working conditions. Is that what you're saying?

00:28:28.940 Absolutely. No, exactly.

00:28:30.040 I mean, it leads to fascinating examples. 0.91

00:28:32.620 It's just ridiculous.

00:28:33.480 So, you know, you had Pep Guardiola, 0.91

00:28:34.800 the Manchester city manager,

00:28:35.920 coming out and talk about slavery

00:28:37.220 whilst being bankrolled by Abu Dhabi.

00:28:40.140 And you just think, I mean, is this...

00:28:42.360 And no one brings it up.

00:28:43.580 Well, you know, this whole thing about slavery,

00:28:46.620 you know, I think it's, again,

00:28:47.940 another really worrying trend.

00:28:50.180 Everybody in our society,

00:28:51.660 I think there's almost unanimity about,

00:28:53.980 you know, that slavery

00:28:55.000 and the things that went on in the past

00:28:56.300 were horrific wrongs.

00:28:57.840 No one really defends that.

00:28:59.440 But we cannot be bound by our history.

00:29:02.840 You know, the human story is complex, is multifaceted.

00:29:05.880 It's a story of triumph, conquest, pain and courage.

00:29:08.940 And that's, you know, a traumatic one, but also a beautiful one.

00:29:11.940 At some point, we've got to be able to recognise that we have to take responsibility for our lives in the present day.

00:29:19.420 And I'm also worried about this really one dimensional narrative about slavery.

00:29:23.160 Again, slavery was and is a completely horrific thing.

00:29:26.380 But also, for example, working class white people in Britain suffered indentured servitude and horrific conditions.

00:29:33.520 And so black people don't have a monopoly on oppression. They don't have a monopoly on suffering.

00:29:38.580 And I think that, again, framing just the black identity solely based off of these really negative characteristics will only weigh people down.

00:29:47.360 And I think there isn't just one idea of, as I said, what blackness is, what progress looks like, how do we get there?

00:29:54.420 We've got to really platform the vast range of intellectual and ideological diversity that exists amongst the black population, but start focusing on the positive, focusing on the future, because, you know, people can't be weighed down by these horrific things that happened in history.

00:30:08.600 Do you want to go?

00:30:09.340 I was going to say, you know, you talk about the importance of being able to have this free conversation, but we've seen, and I know that this is something the Free Speech Union cares about and is working on.

00:30:18.600 we've seen people who've uh and i saw the transcript initially you know when you see

00:30:23.460 these news reports they never tell you what actually happened have you noticed this lately

00:30:26.260 like when they talk about a case where somebody said something they weren't supposed to say

00:30:30.200 and then they got fired they never actually give you the information about what that person said

00:30:35.100 you know someone gets removed from twitter you never find out why right because when you do

00:30:40.500 this guy on is it i love why um this this presenter yes yeah the radio presenter absolutely

00:30:45.640 Right. So he had what seemed like a pretty reasonable conversation to me with a black caller. 0.96

00:30:50.180 And he he said to the caller, actually, I'm not you know, I haven't had any more privilege than you.

00:30:57.420 And that was his opinion. Now, he might be right. He might be wrong.

00:31:00.680 I don't know how privileged he's been. I don't know anything about him.

00:31:03.280 But he was instantly removed, pending and subject to an investigation, this whole thing.

00:31:09.020 So how do we have these conversations?

00:31:10.820 If the moment you question it, in your case, you become an Uncle Tom or in the case of a white person who's employed, they get fired.

00:31:18.740 How do we talk about it?

00:31:20.080 I think that we've really got to expose this particular worldview completely for what it is.

00:31:25.280 They talk a lot about compassion and empathy, but actually there is completely nothing empathetic or compassionate about assuming that particular state,

00:31:34.400 listening to particular statements and then defining an entire person's worldview or belief

00:31:37.960 based over those few statements or just blanketing an entire group of people there's nothing

00:31:42.960 compassionate about that I've heard stories of example friends that tell me that they've you

00:31:48.780 know they've got racist grandparents or yeah and I find that really interesting you know my instinct

00:31:53.440 is not to go oh these people are really evil people I'm really interested in you know what

00:31:58.340 why people have these kinds of worldviews what what makes them think that and I think only when

00:32:02.540 we can do that can we meaningfully address those things but some of those things are not even

00:32:06.700 you know necessarily motivated by a hatred or for a group of people some people have genuinely never

00:32:13.100 come across you know a black person that they've been in a very insular small community their

00:32:18.340 entire life and there's various stereotypes that permeate within that community and you know so

00:32:23.140 so there's many different reasons for why people come to the different conclusions that they've

00:32:28.020 come to about the world and that's what we need to seek to understand i think we really have to

00:32:31.960 expose um this particular worldview for what it is i think it's really interesting even the whole

00:32:37.520 definition of racism that they propagate they frame the definition of racism in a way for them

00:32:43.020 to never be able to be racist it's like and even what we were talking about earlier about history

00:32:49.180 you know that if you are solely defined by your history then how can you ever be responsible for

00:32:54.660 your own action and so the way that they frame the situation is for they can never do wrong

00:32:59.380 They can never say anything wrong or be responsible. And that gives them a green light to be able to do anything they want without any consequences. And that's not compassionate. That's not creating a better world. To create a better world, we have to go far beyond that. We have to reach across tribal lines and try and genuinely understand each other and create solutions.

00:33:18.680 But on top of that, I oppose this whole idea of white privilege.

00:33:23.320 You know, again, I understand why people kind of say it.

00:33:28.040 They argue that, for example, white people, if they're going to be oppressed by anything, it's not going to be because of their race.

00:33:34.540 But again, I think that these kinds of really simplistic narratives are really divisive.

00:33:38.540 So one thing is, I think that we are all privileged and disadvantaged for a whole race, a whole host of reasons.

00:33:43.980 you know there's people that grow up poor but they have you know a really strong community and

00:33:48.480 family and you know there's people that are rich and you know don't have that there are many

00:33:51.980 different things that make us who we are and that's genuinely compassionate that's genuinely

00:33:56.660 empathy and common humanity and on top of that there are many white people that I've come across

00:34:01.300 and spoken to that have contacted me who genuinely don't feel privileged because of their wife

00:34:05.360 because of their race you know whether that is the fact that white working class boys have the

00:34:10.400 lowest educational attainment. In this country, there's been whole scandals to do with grooming

00:34:14.380 gangs, which is a whole other issue in itself. The idea that the only form of, the only valid

00:34:20.520 form of grievance is a racial one. And that should be the only kind of way in which we can engage in 0.93

00:34:26.100 this conversation about privilege is just frankly not true. And do you think part of the problem is

00:34:30.700 that the people who are talking about things about white privilege tend to be white middle class and

00:34:34.640 white upper class people? Oh, this is, you know, I think this is a really interesting point, because, 0.57

00:34:39.260 you know especially with this whole conversation about Meghan Markle for example um there was this

00:34:44.300 whole you know argument that she was kind of a victim of racism and a lot of the time it's framed

00:34:49.440 as kind of poor white working class people that have all of these bigoted attitudes but from my

00:34:54.500 experience and what I've seen the working class in Britain are actually the most diverse group

00:34:59.540 many most of the interracial relationships and you know mixed race children and all of these

00:35:03.640 things are actually happening amongst working class people who have also been at the forefront

00:35:07.660 of most anti-racist struggles in Britain for the last few decades so this whole framing about

00:35:13.980 you know you know dividing it by race and class in this way it just doesn't stack up to reality

00:35:19.180 and what I found is that it's often you know the middle class white middle class narrative

00:35:23.720 I don't want to again frame it solely by race but I just think it's interesting that seem to be

00:35:29.660 wanting to be the kind of savior and the answer to all of these issues and a way to kind of look

00:35:35.280 down on a valid way of exerting prejudice on a group of people, which is kind of the white

00:35:40.140 working class population. I find that very interesting. So I think that, again, many of

00:35:46.160 the narratives, when we actually investigate them, don't actually stack up to this very binary

00:35:51.000 oppressor versus oppressed narrative that we are being told.

00:35:54.320 Well, I'm listening to you and it makes perfect sense to me. And as you know, I agree with much

00:35:58.860 of what you say. But I saw a CNN poll, I think, and some people who don't like CNN are going to

00:36:05.240 you know, be upset about that, but I suspect it's probably quite accurate, which shows that

00:36:09.120 somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of black people in this country do feel that the police

00:36:14.320 treat them worse because they're black, do feel discriminated against, do think there's systemic

00:36:20.560 racism. So, you know, either you're wrong or that what you're talking about is correct,

00:36:28.940 but it's not cutting through to ordinary people. How do you explain that?

00:36:32.520 Yeah, I think that, again, so people feeling that way, whether we like it or not, doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

00:36:40.120 And we've got to be confident and feel comfortable to be able to challenge people's feelings because our feelings change and our feelings can be wrong.

00:36:47.500 And even many of the things about the kind of systemic racism and police brutality, again, I believed in the past until I actually looked into it.

00:36:55.860 So I think that a lot of people haven't been confident to actually challenge what the facts are.

00:37:02.140 For example, the BBC itself reported that a lot of people are talking about, you know, deaths in police custody.

00:37:10.200 In the last 10 years, 163 people have died in police custody.

00:37:13.600 In 10 years, 13 were black. So that's, you know, about one a year.

00:37:16.700 And actually, by the BBC's own statistic, a white person was 25 percent more likely to die in police custody than a black person.

00:37:23.900 So people are taking one figure, one statistic and not actually showing the whole picture.

00:37:28.880 So if we only talk about this one statistic without showing the entire context, then, of course, we're going to assume that people are being treated differently.

00:37:37.200 Another example is that, you know, ethnic minority or black people are more likely to be in poverty and this, that, the other.

00:37:43.340 Well, the truth of the matter is, I think something like a third of black ethnic minority in this country are foreign born.

00:37:49.640 So many of them come from poor countries. So you're going to come from a poor country.

00:37:53.240 And obviously, oftentimes you do start at the bottom.

00:37:55.560 that doesn't mean that you're being discriminated against or systemic racism it just means that it

00:38:00.000 takes time to move up the social ladder and those opportunities are there and so again we talk about

00:38:05.940 ethnic minorities in relation to crime well again being coming from a immigrant household you're 1.00

00:38:12.000 more likely to be in an impoverished community and there's many different things that affect

00:38:15.980 in terms of impoverishment crime that relate to that so that's not a lot of these things can

00:38:21.320 actually just be explained and and resolved and don't necessarily um have anything in relation to

00:38:28.300 an institutional or systemic um racism and i think about always about my own upbringing so i grew up

00:38:34.900 in an area of south london which had real problems with race the pub down my road is a bmp pub it had

00:38:39.860 an england flag flying why do you keep saying that about the england flag you said that every time

00:38:43.800 and then all the all the people having an england flag doesn't make you no no it doesn't it doesn't

00:38:48.700 It absolutely doesn't make you racist in any shape or form.

00:38:52.560 However, the pub was a BNP pub and that's where they used to meet up

00:38:55.840 and there was assaults against Asian people and all the rest of it.

00:39:00.240 And it feels like we've made huge progress.

00:39:03.300 Have we taken a step back as a result of what's been happening at the moment?

00:39:08.260 So I think it's a really important point that you mentioned the BNP pub

00:39:11.120 because, again, when I was saying in the beginning about race relations

00:39:13.840 being perhaps one of the one things that we can try and fix,

00:39:15.960 but the BNP has literally collapsed as a political movement.

00:39:19.400 I think Britain is one of the only countries in the West

00:39:22.440 who do not have a far right force as a coherent, you know, political force.

00:39:26.700 That is saying something.

00:39:28.700 And so I think that we are taking a regressive step.

00:39:31.720 And, you know, it does pay me to say that because, as I said before,

00:39:35.260 to tell a whole generation of young people that are living in such a,

00:39:39.820 you know, there's definitely things more to be done.

00:39:42.300 And I'm not going to deny that.

00:39:43.280 But I personally think most of the more that needs to be done is relating to individual mentality, agency and personal responsibility.

00:39:50.520 That's my opinion. But there is obviously more to be done.

00:39:53.900 But then saying this, completely permeating this almost every single day is such a divisive situation.

00:40:00.460 I've seen friendship groups that have been friends for decades, all of a sudden, you know, defining their friendship group on racial lines.

00:40:09.600 And, you know, one friend saying, oh, what can I do to help you as a black person?

00:40:14.840 And it was never like that before.

00:40:16.360 They never talked about race in such a divisive way.

00:40:19.560 But this whole narrative and being permeated naturally becomes internalized as is embedded in our own culture.

00:40:25.460 So I think it is a regressive step.

00:40:27.040 I think going forward, I hope that we are moving towards more of a colorblind society where people are.

00:40:34.880 But that's racist now.

00:40:36.700 But that's literally what people say.

00:40:38.580 The idea of a colourblind society is racist.

00:40:40.940 I keep getting people telling me that that's not what Martin Luther King meant

00:40:44.120 when he said people should be judged on the content of their character.

00:40:47.220 He didn't mean a colourblind society.

00:40:49.600 He was a revolutionary.

00:40:50.680 He wanted to overthrow the white patriarchy or whatever it is.

00:40:54.080 Is that not true?

00:40:55.080 No, I don't think that's true.

00:40:56.620 And, you know, the alternative of a colourblind society 0.92

00:40:58.960 would mean to sacrifice the whole idea of meritocracy.

00:41:02.860 You know, we see this with hiring practices.

00:41:05.780 it seems it's more likely now that you will be hired to fill a tick box in a quota not necessarily

00:41:12.200 by you know normal kind of competition to get a job and so that completely undermines the idea 0.64

00:41:17.240 of meritocracy and that again creates a self-fulfilling prophecy like black kids think 1.00

00:41:21.720 they're getting a job because of their race and you know and and that they didn't need to think

00:41:25.520 about that before and so i think that a colorblind society if not what we have now should absolutely

00:41:30.700 be the goal i would even like to see again this is a you know probably a more out there idea but

00:41:35.640 We talk about anti-racism.

00:41:37.140 What I'd really like to see is us even thinking far more imaginatively

00:41:40.840 and bigger in terms of, could we even overcome race?

00:41:43.860 Is that something even possible?

00:41:45.440 I think that if we are serious about transforming our society

00:41:48.960 to make it fairer and more just and freer,

00:41:52.700 I think that we've really got to go beyond these artificial categories

00:41:56.180 and start being far more imaginative in relation to how we relate to each other.

00:42:01.740 Sorry, go for it.

00:42:02.940 No, okay, so what would you implement if you...

00:42:06.960 That's exactly what I was going to say.

00:42:09.340 But this is the real question.

00:42:11.340 Like, you talk about agency and responsibility.

00:42:13.460 Like, what do you think people need to do,

00:42:16.020 and we as a society need to do as well to overcome this?

00:42:20.760 Yeah, so there's a few things.

00:42:23.000 Obviously, there's top-down, top-level things and bottom-level things.

00:42:26.280 from the top level thing I think that the you know we need to stop um continually perpetuating

00:42:33.780 this idea that Britain is this society I think we need to be completely confident in saying that we

00:42:38.540 are not this society you know it's imperfect but we are um a positive forward tolerant country and

00:42:45.420 but there is absolutely more that we can do and we stand united all as British people whether

00:42:49.860 wherever we come from but we are all here together as British people so from the top level I'd love

00:42:54.280 to see far more kind of moral and political leadership in not being so cowardly in the face

00:43:00.140 of these movements and I think that that would be really really strong she's talking about Boris

00:43:03.520 Johnson because I think that that's part of the problem many of these people think they can get

00:43:08.740 away with it because there's no pushback and so there's got to be something on the top level but

00:43:12.580 from the bottom up I think that we absolutely need to cultivate a far more culture of criticism

00:43:18.680 you know critique is now considered hate or criticism you know you can't even share a

00:43:23.040 platform or someone that thinks differently to you I don't think that that's acceptable I think

00:43:26.880 that we need to cultivate a culture of criticism where debate and discussion and these difficult

00:43:32.080 ideas become embedded into our daily lives I think that that would really I think raise the

00:43:37.440 level of consciousness political consciousness but also help people to recognize that you know

00:43:41.980 you don't necessarily have moral superiority you know there are reasons why we all think differently

00:43:46.820 and we all can contribute in this open environment to be able to create solutions together and

00:43:53.020 negotiate change so that from the bottom up I would love to see that far more in schools far

00:43:57.760 more critical and deep intellectual engagement to embed that kind of culture of tolerance and

00:44:04.240 mutual understanding and deep kind of rigorous intellectual debate in order to foster genuine

00:44:10.520 meaningful intellectual diversity not just kind of diversity of colour. What about on the individual

00:44:15.820 level you talk about agency responsibility these are all words that don't mean much to many people

00:44:20.480 they're just you know so what are you talking about so so i think that i'm really interested

00:44:27.060 in if we all as individuals cultivated as much as we can as a sense that we could actually achieve

00:44:34.860 and did everything that we as individuals first could do to make our lives better i think that

00:44:40.120 that that would completely transform our society i think that we there is an automatic response to

00:44:47.320 assume and blame external factors and sometimes obviously there are external factors that play

00:44:51.440 a part but as I've seen with my own life and my own family who in many ways came from nothing in

00:44:56.840 Britain and were able to transform their life there is clearly a potential within all of us

00:45:01.860 to be able to do something different to be able to shape our future and shape our reality and I

00:45:06.880 think that that's that kind of deep reflective and internal work exposing ourselves to different

00:45:12.120 ideas, seeing how we feel and respond to these different ideas, you know, creating a more coherent

00:45:17.800 and refined argument. And that's ultimately, you know, how you develop a sense of personal

00:45:22.180 independence and personal freedom. You know, we live in a culture that's very, that uses the word

00:45:27.940 safety a lot. You know, you live on campus, a safe space, we need to be safe for students that we need

00:45:33.840 risk, we need to be braver, we need to be more courageous. These are the types of values I think

00:45:38.340 we should be prioritising and kind of elevating in our society, not safety, not risk aversion,

00:45:44.140 not kind of limiting our surroundings to our echo chamber. I think that's how we really

00:45:49.360 start to create an environment where we think outside the box, innovate and kind of move beyond

00:45:55.700 these very limiting constraints. And so you've graduated university not long ago and you've

00:46:01.420 touched on the campus and university culture a lot. How much responsibility do universities need

00:46:06.620 to take for the current climate that we find ourselves in? I think a huge responsibility.

00:46:10.940 I think for a long time, people thought that, you know, it was just these fringe students being

00:46:15.960 kind of a bit zealots, and it didn't really mean anything or fade out. But actually, that's not

00:46:20.740 what's happened. We've seen it with the New York Times, for example. I think it's the opinion

00:46:25.340 editor has been forced to resign for platforming a Republican defending Donald Trump, because all

00:46:30.420 of these new liberal woke young people are kind of forcing the magazine to completely change its

00:46:37.120 culture so what has happened is these students that and academics obviously have now obviously

00:46:42.920 moved into everyday life and are now transforming the institutions we've seen it with you know this

00:46:47.360 whole situation with JK Rowling so I think that the academics and that kind of limiting academic

00:46:53.580 climate which is in many ways the brain of our society universities that naturally then permeates

00:46:59.920 as the educated class then become the elite,

00:47:03.220 the cultural and media elite.

00:47:04.860 And so I think that that has a really big part to play.

00:47:07.100 And I hope that going forward, universities wake up.

00:47:12.120 I think now with COVID-19,

00:47:13.420 they're facing a really huge funding gap

00:47:16.040 and a funding vacuum.

00:47:17.200 So I think that this is the climate now

00:47:19.860 for us to actually make some significant changes,

00:47:22.960 but it can go either way.

00:47:24.640 I really think so.

00:47:25.860 It's been great chatting with you.

00:47:27.220 Thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:47:28.480 we have just one more question for you and it's the one we always finish with which is what is

00:47:33.220 the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be as i guess i've touched

00:47:38.760 upon it a little bit um already i think it is personal responsibility i think that we are very

00:47:43.800 quick to blame external factors for our situation and absolutely there is a role to play for that

00:47:50.300 but i would really love to see far more people um taking responsibility for their life shaping

00:47:57.180 themselves as individuals and seeing how far they can go within their selves as an individual then

00:48:03.040 within their families and communities and going beyond that not just automatically going for

00:48:07.500 shaping society at large she's saying clean your room put your shoulders back go out into the world

00:48:14.580 look the other person in the eye and have some bloody backbone but i think you but that's it

00:48:20.480 isn't it like it's about recognizing that of course external factors can and will affect your

00:48:25.300 life and it's inevitable and we all get ill and all kinds of things will happen. But if you take

00:48:30.200 responsibility for your part, you'll find that 90% of the things you're unhappy with can be resolved

00:48:35.920 through your own work, right? Exactly. Well, it's great to have someone like you very young and

00:48:41.180 spreading that message to people. We really appreciate coming on the show and our viewers

00:48:44.940 will as well. So thanks very much. Where can people follow you and your work and what can

00:48:49.080 people do to support the Free Speech Union as well? Yeah, just sign up to freespeechunion.org,

00:48:53.780 but you can follow me

00:48:54.480 on Twitter

00:48:54.880 Anaya Filarion 0.99

00:48:55.660 or my website

00:48:56.340 anayafilarion.com

00:48:57.580 Thanks very much

00:48:58.980 and thanks for tuning in guys

00:49:00.080 we'll see you very soon

00:49:01.120 with another interview

00:49:01.940 or a live stream

00:49:02.660 make sure

00:49:03.060 if you haven't checked out

00:49:04.260 one of the live streams

00:49:05.080 they're very funny

00:49:06.040 especially when I'm

00:49:07.640 yeah absolutely

00:49:08.840 and he's in no way a narcissist

00:49:10.280 we will see you soon guys

00:49:13.040 take care

00:49:13.680 and thank you very much

00:49:14.580 for watching or listening

00:49:23.780 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - July 12, 2020

＂No Race Has a Monopoly on Oppression＂ - Inaya Folarin Iman

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