Inaya Fallon-Iman is a writer, columnist and the Director of the Free Speech Union. In this episode, Inaya talks about her journey to becoming a free speech campaigner, how she became involved in the campaign, and why she believes that free speech is a fundamental part of a liberal democracy.
00:00:38.400It's good to have you here. For anyone who doesn't know who you are,
00:00:40.860and we're delighted to have you on, by the way.
00:00:42.460We've been chatting about you for a while.
00:00:44.040Your commentary on the recent stuff that's been going on has been fantastic.
00:00:48.220Tell everybody, who are you? How are you? Where you are?
00:00:51.040What has been the journey that brings you sitting to this chair here in this very hot room?
00:00:56.300Well, so I was I was born in London. I'm a daughter of Nigerian immigrants to the UK, but I was raised in a single parent household.
00:01:05.260And my mum, she worked really, really hard to send me and my sister to kind of fee paying schools.
00:01:09.740Then halfway through, I left and I went to a kind of local comprehensive school.
00:01:14.960And after that, went to a grammar school.
00:01:17.000And so from a really young age, I've, I guess, been exposed to various different socioeconomic aspects of British society.
00:01:24.180And that made me really interested from really young in terms of what kind of values, principles and cultures might impact and shape the way that people perceive themselves and their place within society.
00:01:34.520So that really started very young in terms of my interest in politics.
00:01:38.320But now, you know, through a whole range of situations, I've become a free speech campaigner.
00:01:44.180And I think that that really sparked, particularly when I went to university, I think that's where I really became radicalised.
00:01:49.540I've always been really interested in ideas, but as we've seen with this kind of free speech culture wars and campus wars,
00:01:56.140I was really surprised to see the kind of really limiting climate in university when it came to free speech.
00:02:02.180One event in particular, I think, is what really sparked my interest.
00:02:05.620And there was this whole movement at my university in regards to why is my curriculum white? Decolonise the curriculum.
00:02:11.440and I think it's a really interesting movement in terms of broadening our understanding
00:02:15.800of the kind of way in which race relations came to be in the UK but what I found at university
00:02:21.800it was one particular narrative and I posed the question of whether or not this was useful
00:02:26.180and I received a huge huge backlash at university and then I started a series of kind of free speech
00:02:32.320debates on campus and again there was so much controversy and kind of ridicule in relation to
00:02:38.620these free speech conversations, which I understood was essentially the fundamental bedrock of our
00:02:43.820democracy. And how do we kind of move forward in terms of conversations about race and progress
00:02:48.880within society if we aren't able to even understand the very foundation of our democracy? And so that's
00:02:54.760kind of where, particularly at university, where I really became interested in this conversation
00:02:58.520about free speech. And that's kind of brought me on to conversations about identity, politics,
00:03:03.140agency, democracy and things like that. And so you also work for the Free Speech Union with Toby
00:03:09.740Young. Why is it that we need a free speech union? Because don't we live in a liberal democracy? Can't
00:03:14.260I go and say whatever I feel without repercussion? Yeah, I mean, it's really, really astonishing how
00:03:19.660little I found that people genuinely understand free speech. I mean, the conversation particularly
00:03:26.560right now about free speech is often framed in relation to hate and spreading hate and how it's
00:03:31.300kind of somehow in contradiction to the pursuit of liberation of minorities when I often understand
00:03:37.300understood it as free speech is almost is very nature to protect minorities you know you don't
00:03:43.200need free speech if you are necessarily the majority because you're backed up by power and
00:03:47.360privilege it is the views of the minority whether that's you know religious or ethnic or otherwise
00:03:52.160where kind of free speech is so important and so for me again that's why I kind of became really
00:03:58.860interested in it again because I'm told because of my identity because I'm a black woman this that
00:04:03.660and the other that I'm meant to have a particular worldview and a particular attitude and I found
00:04:08.700that you know free speech is actually so fundamental to pursuing transformational change
00:04:13.320within society and so again I felt that I had a kind of moral obligation to be part of reshaping
00:04:19.260and redefining the free speech conversation in the UK and that's kind of why I got involved in
00:04:24.060the free speech union. And we're recording this at a quite interesting cultural moment,
00:04:28.720to say the very least. The things seem to be really kicking off. And I thought that the issue
00:04:35.640with free speech, as you know, and, you know, we've talked in the past, the issue with free
00:04:40.120speech has been there for some time now, as you talk about, you know, at university when you were
00:04:44.880there. But am I right in thinking that it seems to, you know, I don't think the last few weeks
00:04:50.040have made it better have they i mean it's really been astonishing i again the racial conversation
00:04:55.760is not necessarily one that has interested me from my upbringing um i well why not because
00:05:00.960we're told that all black people are oppressed you know you experience racism on a daily basis
00:05:06.500and look of course there's racism i've experienced racism you know you haven't no no mate not with
00:05:11.380this voice if i give racism not experience it you're just you're just too pink for racism that's
00:05:16.920but you know look of course there are racist people in the world right so how is it that you
00:05:21.360know you've managed to avoid this conversation you know you've managed to grow up to to go through
00:05:26.420university to to get a job to to be a prominent uh you know speaker on these issues uh and and
00:05:32.440a commentator in in our public society without becoming embroiled in this in this racial way
00:05:38.660of thinking why are you so different well it's really interesting and you know i started off
00:05:43.380of my upbringing I think that that is really what has shaped me you know despite on paper you know
00:05:47.740my mum came to this country as an immigrant all of these types of things we didn't grow up necessarily
00:05:51.480rich but from such a young age I was inculcated with this view that you know you can achieve
00:05:56.260whatever you want you know the sky's the limit and I never had all of these kind of racial hang-ups
00:06:01.400and so that never became how I perceived myself in the world and how you know what my potentials
00:06:07.660were defined by and so I never thought that you know that is necessarily the kind of way in which
00:06:12.540that I should necessarily engage in politics but it's become really important now because I've
00:06:16.840been so worried about the deeply what I would argue is disempowering and demoralizing message
00:06:22.080that we are sending to a whole generation of young people that are living in a society that
00:06:26.140has made leaps and bounds when it comes to race relations not just in the last 30 or 40 years but
00:06:31.020in the last 10 years there's so many schemes programs um drives to increase representation
00:06:36.740and all of a sudden at the point where I would argue we can actually say yes there's more to be
00:06:41.200done but perhaps in all the things that have happened in the last 20 years the race relations
00:06:46.240situation I would argue is one of the few things that we have triumphed and achieved and at this
00:06:51.400very moment we are now being told that our society couldn't be more racist more sexist
00:06:56.960this cesspool and so I find it really dangerous this narrative that is being told and there's
00:07:03.100many studies that have actually kind of come out as well that confirming just the actual corrosive
00:07:08.400nature of this particular narrative so there's been you know studies that have come out which
00:07:12.580show that for example black men in particular but black people are more likely to be in high
00:07:17.520security mental health institutions if they have contact with mental health services and many
00:07:22.720people think oh that's an example of institutional racism well actually when it's being investigated
00:07:27.040further what we're finding is that this narrative about the system being against you makes people
00:07:34.400interact with that system differently and perceive that, you know, a lack of trust and
00:07:38.600a lack of kind of cohesive relationship with that institution, which makes them more likely
00:07:42.600to resist. Similar with the kind of stigma that exists in regards to mental health in
00:07:47.560many of these kind of ethnic minority communities. On top of that, we've seen it with regards
00:07:52.000to the justicism in the prison system. Many people, for example, are less likely to plead
00:07:56.860guilty for crimes because they are mistrusting of their lawyers and things like that. So
00:08:03.020what we're actually finding in a lot of these situations, this particular narrative about
00:08:07.040Britain being institutionally and structured in a racist way is actually producing a self-fulfilling
00:08:13.300prophecy. And I think that that's, as I said, a really demoralising message to send to young
00:08:19.020people. And that's why, you know, I in some ways use myself as an example of despite all of these
00:08:24.620things on paper, you know, I've been able to achieve that and absolutely racism exists. But
00:08:29.220there's much more to the story than what I think is being told.
00:08:32.360And why is it that we don't challenge the narrative?
00:08:34.120So you've just put forward a reason as to why these things exist,
00:08:56.700So those are things like intersectionality, critical race theory. So, for example, in critical race theory, it's framed that racism permeates every single aspect of our life.
00:09:06.340So there's almost nothing that we can do about it. And that's very much shaping the conversation about racism in academia.
00:09:12.180And I think that that's very much filtering off to every other aspect of society.
00:09:16.560But on top of that, there's an entire industry now that in some ways has a vested interest in perpetuating this narrative.
00:09:23.160And I think this is quite a sensitive topic. I definitely think it needs to be said. You know, I've spoken about, you know, every HR department having an equality, diversity and equity officer.
00:09:33.760There are many whole organisations now that have that are solely kind of invested in this particular narrative about racism existing and in a really deep and profound way.
00:09:44.840And yes, it does exist. But there's a whole kind of structure within society that now are embedded in perpetuating this particular narrative.
00:09:52.520If you have whole academic fields about, you know, race, racism in Britain.
00:09:56.800And I think that there's not many people that feel comfortable to be able to kind of challenge that when it's become so embedded and permeating in the climate that we have.
00:10:07.800But on top of that, I think there is a kind of overcorrection.
00:10:10.600I think that many people are genuinely well-meaning.
00:10:13.260They're hearing black people saying that, you know, the way this is the way that society is.
00:10:19.260And so obviously, as we want to care about individuals that are making these claims about society, it's our intention is obviously want to believe that and to alleviate that.
00:10:31.040But I think that there is genuinely a problem in kind of accepting this whole narrative wholesale.
00:10:36.860So one of the things that has really emerged recently is this whole idea that you as a white person or you as a this person can never really understand me as a black woman.
00:10:46.060listen to this bit this is for you mate and i think this is an incredibly pernicious idea
00:10:52.560i actually think that this um is so destructive because it unpacks and kind of removes the very
00:10:59.640basis of this whole idea of universalism and humanism that what even though we might have
00:11:04.680different experiences what we share is our common humanity and we all feel alienation we might all
00:11:08.940feel you know trauma but ultimately we all experience those things and so we can put
00:11:14.560ourselves in other people's shoes and from my experience again it doesn't resonate with what
00:11:19.240I've experienced some of the most profound and interesting conversations I've had about race
00:11:22.800have been with people of other races and so I think that we really have to challenge this idea
00:11:28.620that you know someone's subjective experience is the only valid way of understanding the world
00:11:35.080around us we have to defend this notion of an objective truth we have to defend that there are
00:11:40.180things that we can find out and research and look at the complexities of why that situation is
00:11:44.820and accept that we can all understand that as human beings and not let just one section of
00:11:49.620society be able to define what specific aspects mean you see this is where i would agree with
00:11:56.220with what you're saying in the sense that i think that's the right way to go but i wonder whether
00:12:00.820we've just gone too far in the other direction that it's not possible any longer i'll give you
00:12:04.820an example uh you know a friend of ours who watched our interview with aisha can be who you
00:12:10.520know uh i sent it to a friend of his and his friend said yeah i really enjoyed it because
00:12:16.060it was a black woman talking about her experience you're shaking your head in disgust but but you
00:12:22.720know what i mean like the majority of people have been in calc you know indoctrinated with this idea
00:12:28.360that that is how we think and i'll be honest with you i think you know us we we've been
00:12:32.920indoctrinated with it as well like i haven't i'm very woke no i don't know about that mate like
00:12:38.060i wonder whether let's be honest if aisha was white or if you were white we would have you
00:12:44.760as readily on our show as we do when you're not white do you see what i'm saying no i do understand
00:12:50.420that and obviously there is some validity to the notion that you know being obviously of a particular
00:12:56.540race and if you're having a conversation about things that affect that race then they're going
00:13:00.200to be more invested in that particular conversation but it's but it's more than that I think there's
00:13:04.740one thing kind of listening to other people but there's another thing as homogenizing them or
00:13:10.680becoming a kind of spokesperson and that's one of the things again that I think has been quite toxic
00:13:14.840I've seen essentially a kind of concerted effort to create an all-encompassing mythology about what
00:13:20.760it means to be black in the world today but particularly Britain and essentializing that
00:13:24.240narrative to be one of racism oppression and victimhood and the problem with this kind of
00:13:28.640homogenous view is, then when you have ethnic minorities, you know, Minira Merza, myself,
00:13:33.820other people that don't experience or don't feel that this particular narrative speaks to what
00:13:39.940they've experienced, then we are then, you know, framed as the other. And so ultimately, we need
00:13:45.540to be able to say, you know, you are speaking for yourself as an individual. And what our individual
00:13:51.840experience is ultimately what is important and not be solely defined by these categories.
00:13:56.380And why do you think the debate is so toxic? Because it's not just toxic when, you know, people come out and talk about their own experiences. It's toxic within, for instance, the black community. I mean, it's a ridiculous thing to say. But, you know, somebody like you says their experience and, you know, then you get other people using racist language against you. And you think, why is it that we can't have a simple, honest discussion on these matters?
00:14:19.780I think that a lot of people are really kind of so if you create, as I said, this all encompassing narrative about what it means to be black and you inculcate that to a whole generation of young people, then their entire identity is then invested in that particular worldview.
00:14:38.220And so to challenge that becomes more than just kind of having an open, honest conversation.
00:14:43.480It becomes about essentially challenging how they perceive themselves.
00:14:47.920And I think that that seems to make people really uncomfortable at a fundamental level.
00:14:52.300And that's why I think that it's really important now to try and really unpack these essentially fact free stories that are being perpetuated.
00:15:03.020Or we're going to have a whole group of people that define their entire identity by this kind of victim grievance narrative and internalize that.
00:15:11.060And then again, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because people start to have a chip on their shoulder.
00:15:15.640People start to perceive the world around them differently.
00:15:18.320And again, it's really interesting because I know this from experience.
00:15:22.180I grew up in a relatively conservative household, but for a very short period of time, I was really interested in these woke ideas.
00:15:29.300And I started spending a lot of time with people that perpetuated them.
00:15:32.500And I saw how it actually changed me. And that was really interesting. I think that's one of the reasons why I think I'm quite passionate about it is that, you know, I started to see, you know, normal interactions with people as perhaps prejudicial or like that people were, you know, judging me based off of my race and that society itself was structured against me and that almost there was nothing that I could do about it.
00:15:55.500And this is some of the things that are being told and people do believe.
00:15:59.000And I think that that massively changes what you believe is possible for yourself.
00:16:03.280So I think that we have to separate people's, as I said before, subjective judgments with what the facts of the matter is.
00:16:12.140And that's why I'm so adamant about telling the truth about what the situation is.
00:16:16.440So some of the things that have been said is, you know, all these different aspects of society, this notion of systemic racism.
00:16:24.000But when you actually unpack many of these concepts and the different layers of society, the picture is much more complex.
00:16:30.320So let's take, for example, education. The situation for British Nigerian children is almost completely different to the situation for British Jamaican children.
00:16:38.320Oh, yeah. You guys are smashing it, right?
00:16:42.340Yeah. West Africa. I used to be a teacher. West African goes one of the highest achieving subgroups in all of education.
00:16:47.640Yeah, exactly. And, you know, yeah, exactly. Higher than the average in the in the country.
00:16:52.600But the situation is different for British Caribbean boys. So why is that? That can't be solely down to systemic racism, because we have disparities, quite significant disparities amongst ethnic groups and BME ethnic groups themselves.
00:17:06.080Similarly, you know, with British Indian people and British Chinese people are actually have a higher average earning than the white British population.
00:19:28.920Let's say a first-generation Ghanaian might have more in common
00:19:32.340with a first-generation Russian immigrant
00:19:34.020than they might do with a British-born Caribbean person.
00:19:38.020Is that kind of? Yeah, no, exactly. I do think that that is the case. And so that's why I think this kind of blanket systemic racism, institutional racism argument is missing these kinds of nuances and complexities of the situation.
00:19:50.440And on top of that, what's really interesting, you know, I kind of touched on this notion of agency and personal responsibility, something that I would really like to explore further.
00:19:58.800Again, it's quite a sensitive topic, but there's a culture within particularly some communities, predominantly black communities of this whole notion of like you're acting white.
00:20:08.400And I actually think that some of that actually seems to me to have some connections with this whole Uncle Tom culture that we're seeing, you know, you're a coon, all these kinds of things.
00:20:19.060And I just define a few of those things for people who may be less familiar, like we're obviously all very versed in this stuff.
00:20:24.620But first of all, what does it mean to be acting white? And then talk to us about the whole Uncle Tom phenomenon.
00:20:29.960Yeah. So I think it's, you know, I think it seems to happen less when people leave school.
00:20:34.700But I think it's something that I've seen a lot among school kids, you know, black kids that might be nonconformist or interested in traditionally white type of things.
00:20:44.860like people say maybe rock music despite the fact that that has often origins as well in like
00:20:49.020Jimi Hendrix and things like that but things like that a lot of young kids have said oh you're
00:20:54.000you're acting white and I think that that can actually shape the perception of what black
00:21:01.980culture is to young people and I think that when they think of what it means to be black in Britain
00:21:38.300are we doing as individuals within our own community, so to speak,
00:21:42.280to perpetuate certain ideas and beliefs and behaviours
00:21:46.020that could be limiting the way that we perceive our potential?
00:21:50.620And then talk to us about the whole Uncle Tom thing as well.
00:21:53.560Yeah, I think particularly in the last few months,
00:21:56.180this has been something that I've seen grow at a really exponential rate.
00:22:00.960You know, we've seen it with kind of Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak,
00:22:03.660or even other ethnic minority people that have become really successful
00:22:07.480do not perceive themselves as oppressed or victimised, but acknowledge racism exists,
00:22:11.920but don't feel that they are defined by yet, are claimed to be somehow agents of white supremacy
00:22:17.440or agents of perpetuating a racist system.
00:22:21.940And again, I think it's such a limiting perception of what it means to be any of these different groups.
00:22:28.000Because from my understanding, at least, integration or at least progress to me would be seeing intellectual diversity, ideological diversity amongst all of these different people, that they're no longer solely political based off of their race alone, that their political interests are defined by so much more than that.
00:22:49.000And so what I'm finding now, the strongest perpetuators of these kind of very rigid stereotypes, these limiting stereotypes, is not coming from the kind of traditional far right kind of white racists.
00:23:00.580It's coming from this section of the woke left in particular that have a very narrow perception of ethnic minorities.
00:23:08.460And it's not just a narrow perception. It's an actual denial of, you know, a lot of these ethnic minorities are socially conservative because they're first generation immigrants.
00:23:16.240No, it's really interesting. And, you know, I hope that going forward, as we have more of these conversations, more and more people will see that actually, you know, the left isn't necessarily the natural home.
00:23:28.820Now, I don't actually identify as necessarily on the left or the right, but I do think a lot of the conservative values that many immigrant communities do grow up in do seem to find a stronger place in kind of conservatism more broadly.
00:23:40.720And I really hope that as this kind of conversation progresses, we can see far more intellectual and ideological diversity and political experimentation amongst ethnic minority communities.
00:23:50.720All right. Well, that concludes about 20 minutes section of the interview where I massively derailed you from talking about the free speech union and what's happening now.
00:23:58.680And let's go back to that because I do think it's important.
00:24:01.040The question I asked you at the very beginning was, do you think things have got better with free speech or that they've got worse in the last few weeks with everything that's been going on?
00:24:09.980I think that it's massively got worse. And I don't say that lightly. And not only do I think it's got worse, I think it's incredibly dangerous, the place that we're in. We are talking about, particularly from the Black Lives Matter narrative in particular, asking, they're calling for quite significant transformational changes of our society.
00:24:28.560And none of this can potentially, none of this can possibly happen in a positive way if we are not embedded in an existing social climate where people feel able to come forward, to challenge, to engage in constructive discourse and tell the truth about what they feel.
00:24:44.880you know people i'm seeing a feeling compelled to lie many people have emailed me and come to me
00:24:49.760telling me you know that their friends are going to leave them if they don't put a black square or
00:24:54.280say black lives matter none of these things are conducive to a constructive and positive forward
00:24:59.240facing vision you know i want people to tell the truth i want people to tell me when i'm wrong
00:25:04.400and actually free speech right now is massively in decline and not just from a kind of um
00:25:11.680you know traditional conception of free speech in relation to conversation but but even that the way
00:25:16.820in which we are um conceiving of our own history we are seeing this kind of very one-dimensional
00:25:22.520overly negative characterization of britain and british history which is then shaping
00:25:27.980again what i've said before this the way in which people are perceiving themselves and i think that
00:25:33.420um freedom of speech as i said is just so important in regards to obviously the pursuit
00:25:38.940of higher meaning and truth, you know, the basis of free speech is also this whole idea of obviously
00:25:44.640as in a democracy, we all have equal power and shape to be able to shape our society. And, you
00:25:49.260know, free speech is the mechanism to which we can really understand each other. And if we don't
00:25:54.120really start to defend it and protect it in a meaningful way, I think that we are, we're in
00:25:59.560kind of really dangerous territory. It's interesting you say, you know, we're in dangerous
00:26:03.140territory, because thank the Lord that I'm not involved in a corporate environment anymore. But
00:26:07.300I could imagine, especially with the Black Lives Matter movement, if you have any sort of qualms
00:26:13.360about this particular movement or the notion of white privilege, you dare not say it aloud in a
00:26:18.100corporate environment. What I find really interesting, and I've written about this
00:26:22.080slightly, is the way in which corporations have been so accepting of the Black Lives Matter
00:26:28.660narrative. And I think a lot of people within Black Lives Matter think that they're really
00:26:31.900radical and think that they're kind of challenging power structures, but actually that the way in
00:26:36.340which corporations have been so part and parcel of this process, to me, is a really interesting
00:26:40.720development in regards to how corporations and just the powers that be, the kind of political,
00:26:47.520cultural and media establishment, don't actually see Black Lives Matter as a threat. And I think
00:26:52.320that that's because many of the things that are being pushed forward by Black Lives Matter are
00:26:57.240actually incredibly divisive. You know, it's very much this divide and rule game that I would argue
00:27:03.500undermine solidarity amongst working class people across races and so people are kind of fighting
00:27:09.100amongst themselves instead of seeing the kind of broader question about the way in which the
00:27:13.220structures within our society are increasing social injustice and extreme economic inequality
00:27:18.900for all people not just black people and so it suits the corporate kind of ideology very well
00:27:26.500but not just because of that but also because it means that they can engage in very superficial
00:27:31.980gestures of you know putting a black square saying down to white supremacy all of these types of
00:27:37.160things but the genuinely meaningful horrific wrongs that are going on in the present day
00:27:42.940perpetuated by many of the kind of corporate interests get ignored by just so that so instead
00:27:50.060they can just put these kind of very simplistic superficial gestures and you know they get their
00:27:55.320woke points for that and so I think that I find it very interesting that that wokeness as an
00:28:00.260ideology seems very comfortable within the corporate realm. And I think that that tells
00:28:04.300us very much about, you know, if it's really challenging, anything meaningful.
00:28:08.160In other words, a big company can, you know, put the black square, give some money to Black
00:28:14.240Lives Matter while employing people paying the minimum wage in horrible conditions of
00:28:18.440all colors because they're too busy, you know, engaged in this protest or in this movement
00:28:23.700as opposed to campaigning for their right to actually be paid better or to have better
00:28:27.400working conditions. Is that what you're saying?
00:28:59.440But we cannot be bound by our history.
00:29:02.840You know, the human story is complex, is multifaceted.
00:29:05.880It's a story of triumph, conquest, pain and courage.
00:29:08.940And that's, you know, a traumatic one, but also a beautiful one.
00:29:11.940At some point, we've got to be able to recognise that we have to take responsibility for our lives in the present day.
00:29:19.420And I'm also worried about this really one dimensional narrative about slavery.
00:29:23.160Again, slavery was and is a completely horrific thing.
00:29:26.380But also, for example, working class white people in Britain suffered indentured servitude and horrific conditions.
00:29:33.520And so black people don't have a monopoly on oppression. They don't have a monopoly on suffering.
00:29:38.580And I think that, again, framing just the black identity solely based off of these really negative characteristics will only weigh people down.
00:29:47.360And I think there isn't just one idea of, as I said, what blackness is, what progress looks like, how do we get there?
00:29:54.420We've got to really platform the vast range of intellectual and ideological diversity that exists amongst the black population, but start focusing on the positive, focusing on the future, because, you know, people can't be weighed down by these horrific things that happened in history.
00:30:09.340I was going to say, you know, you talk about the importance of being able to have this free conversation, but we've seen, and I know that this is something the Free Speech Union cares about and is working on.
00:30:18.600we've seen people who've uh and i saw the transcript initially you know when you see
00:30:23.460these news reports they never tell you what actually happened have you noticed this lately
00:30:26.260like when they talk about a case where somebody said something they weren't supposed to say
00:30:30.200and then they got fired they never actually give you the information about what that person said
00:30:35.100you know someone gets removed from twitter you never find out why right because when you do
00:30:40.500this guy on is it i love why um this this presenter yes yeah the radio presenter absolutely
00:30:45.640Right. So he had what seemed like a pretty reasonable conversation to me with a black caller.
00:30:50.180And he he said to the caller, actually, I'm not you know, I haven't had any more privilege than you.
00:30:57.420And that was his opinion. Now, he might be right. He might be wrong.
00:31:00.680I don't know how privileged he's been. I don't know anything about him.
00:31:03.280But he was instantly removed, pending and subject to an investigation, this whole thing.
00:31:09.020So how do we have these conversations?
00:31:10.820If the moment you question it, in your case, you become an Uncle Tom or in the case of a white person who's employed, they get fired.
00:31:20.080I think that we've really got to expose this particular worldview completely for what it is.
00:31:25.280They talk a lot about compassion and empathy, but actually there is completely nothing empathetic or compassionate about assuming that particular state,
00:31:34.400listening to particular statements and then defining an entire person's worldview or belief
00:31:37.960based over those few statements or just blanketing an entire group of people there's nothing
00:31:42.960compassionate about that I've heard stories of example friends that tell me that they've you
00:31:48.780know they've got racist grandparents or yeah and I find that really interesting you know my instinct
00:31:53.440is not to go oh these people are really evil people I'm really interested in you know what
00:31:58.340why people have these kinds of worldviews what what makes them think that and I think only when
00:32:02.540we can do that can we meaningfully address those things but some of those things are not even
00:32:06.700you know necessarily motivated by a hatred or for a group of people some people have genuinely never
00:32:13.100come across you know a black person that they've been in a very insular small community their
00:32:18.340entire life and there's various stereotypes that permeate within that community and you know so
00:32:23.140so there's many different reasons for why people come to the different conclusions that they've
00:32:28.020come to about the world and that's what we need to seek to understand i think we really have to
00:32:31.960expose um this particular worldview for what it is i think it's really interesting even the whole
00:32:37.520definition of racism that they propagate they frame the definition of racism in a way for them
00:32:43.020to never be able to be racist it's like and even what we were talking about earlier about history
00:32:49.180you know that if you are solely defined by your history then how can you ever be responsible for
00:32:54.660your own action and so the way that they frame the situation is for they can never do wrong
00:32:59.380They can never say anything wrong or be responsible. And that gives them a green light to be able to do anything they want without any consequences. And that's not compassionate. That's not creating a better world. To create a better world, we have to go far beyond that. We have to reach across tribal lines and try and genuinely understand each other and create solutions.
00:33:18.680But on top of that, I oppose this whole idea of white privilege.
00:33:23.320You know, again, I understand why people kind of say it.
00:33:28.040They argue that, for example, white people, if they're going to be oppressed by anything, it's not going to be because of their race.
00:33:34.540But again, I think that these kinds of really simplistic narratives are really divisive.
00:33:38.540So one thing is, I think that we are all privileged and disadvantaged for a whole race, a whole host of reasons.
00:33:43.980you know there's people that grow up poor but they have you know a really strong community and
00:33:48.480family and you know there's people that are rich and you know don't have that there are many
00:33:51.980different things that make us who we are and that's genuinely compassionate that's genuinely
00:33:56.660empathy and common humanity and on top of that there are many white people that I've come across
00:34:01.300and spoken to that have contacted me who genuinely don't feel privileged because of their wife
00:34:05.360because of their race you know whether that is the fact that white working class boys have the
00:34:10.400lowest educational attainment. In this country, there's been whole scandals to do with grooming
00:34:14.380gangs, which is a whole other issue in itself. The idea that the only form of, the only valid
00:34:20.520form of grievance is a racial one. And that should be the only kind of way in which we can engage in
00:34:26.100this conversation about privilege is just frankly not true. And do you think part of the problem is
00:34:30.700that the people who are talking about things about white privilege tend to be white middle class and
00:34:34.640white upper class people? Oh, this is, you know, I think this is a really interesting point, because,
00:34:39.260you know especially with this whole conversation about Meghan Markle for example um there was this
00:34:44.300whole you know argument that she was kind of a victim of racism and a lot of the time it's framed
00:34:49.440as kind of poor white working class people that have all of these bigoted attitudes but from my
00:34:54.500experience and what I've seen the working class in Britain are actually the most diverse group
00:34:59.540many most of the interracial relationships and you know mixed race children and all of these
00:35:03.640things are actually happening amongst working class people who have also been at the forefront
00:35:07.660of most anti-racist struggles in Britain for the last few decades so this whole framing about
00:35:13.980you know you know dividing it by race and class in this way it just doesn't stack up to reality
00:35:19.180and what I found is that it's often you know the middle class white middle class narrative
00:35:23.720I don't want to again frame it solely by race but I just think it's interesting that seem to be
00:35:29.660wanting to be the kind of savior and the answer to all of these issues and a way to kind of look
00:35:35.280down on a valid way of exerting prejudice on a group of people, which is kind of the white
00:35:40.140working class population. I find that very interesting. So I think that, again, many of
00:35:46.160the narratives, when we actually investigate them, don't actually stack up to this very binary
00:35:51.000oppressor versus oppressed narrative that we are being told.
00:35:54.320Well, I'm listening to you and it makes perfect sense to me. And as you know, I agree with much
00:35:58.860of what you say. But I saw a CNN poll, I think, and some people who don't like CNN are going to
00:36:05.240you know, be upset about that, but I suspect it's probably quite accurate, which shows that
00:36:09.120somewhere between 60 and 70 percent of black people in this country do feel that the police
00:36:14.320treat them worse because they're black, do feel discriminated against, do think there's systemic
00:36:20.560racism. So, you know, either you're wrong or that what you're talking about is correct,
00:36:28.940but it's not cutting through to ordinary people. How do you explain that?
00:36:32.520Yeah, I think that, again, so people feeling that way, whether we like it or not, doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
00:36:40.120And we've got to be confident and feel comfortable to be able to challenge people's feelings because our feelings change and our feelings can be wrong.
00:36:47.500And even many of the things about the kind of systemic racism and police brutality, again, I believed in the past until I actually looked into it.
00:36:55.860So I think that a lot of people haven't been confident to actually challenge what the facts are.
00:37:02.140For example, the BBC itself reported that a lot of people are talking about, you know, deaths in police custody.
00:37:10.200In the last 10 years, 163 people have died in police custody.
00:37:13.600In 10 years, 13 were black. So that's, you know, about one a year.
00:37:16.700And actually, by the BBC's own statistic, a white person was 25 percent more likely to die in police custody than a black person.
00:37:23.900So people are taking one figure, one statistic and not actually showing the whole picture.
00:37:28.880So if we only talk about this one statistic without showing the entire context, then, of course, we're going to assume that people are being treated differently.
00:37:37.200Another example is that, you know, ethnic minority or black people are more likely to be in poverty and this, that, the other.
00:37:43.340Well, the truth of the matter is, I think something like a third of black ethnic minority in this country are foreign born.
00:37:49.640So many of them come from poor countries. So you're going to come from a poor country.
00:37:53.240And obviously, oftentimes you do start at the bottom.
00:37:55.560that doesn't mean that you're being discriminated against or systemic racism it just means that it
00:38:00.000takes time to move up the social ladder and those opportunities are there and so again we talk about
00:38:05.940ethnic minorities in relation to crime well again being coming from a immigrant household you're
00:38:12.000more likely to be in an impoverished community and there's many different things that affect
00:38:15.980in terms of impoverishment crime that relate to that so that's not a lot of these things can
00:38:21.320actually just be explained and and resolved and don't necessarily um have anything in relation to
00:38:28.300an institutional or systemic um racism and i think about always about my own upbringing so i grew up
00:38:34.900in an area of south london which had real problems with race the pub down my road is a bmp pub it had
00:38:39.860an england flag flying why do you keep saying that about the england flag you said that every time
00:38:43.800and then all the all the people having an england flag doesn't make you no no it doesn't it doesn't
00:38:48.700It absolutely doesn't make you racist in any shape or form.
00:38:52.560However, the pub was a BNP pub and that's where they used to meet up
00:38:55.840and there was assaults against Asian people and all the rest of it.
00:39:00.240And it feels like we've made huge progress.
00:39:03.300Have we taken a step back as a result of what's been happening at the moment?
00:39:08.260So I think it's a really important point that you mentioned the BNP pub
00:39:11.120because, again, when I was saying in the beginning about race relations
00:39:13.840being perhaps one of the one things that we can try and fix,
00:39:15.960but the BNP has literally collapsed as a political movement.
00:39:19.400I think Britain is one of the only countries in the West
00:39:22.440who do not have a far right force as a coherent, you know, political force.
00:39:43.280But I personally think most of the more that needs to be done is relating to individual mentality, agency and personal responsibility.
00:39:50.520That's my opinion. But there is obviously more to be done.
00:39:53.900But then saying this, completely permeating this almost every single day is such a divisive situation.
00:40:00.460I've seen friendship groups that have been friends for decades, all of a sudden, you know, defining their friendship group on racial lines.
00:40:09.600And, you know, one friend saying, oh, what can I do to help you as a black person?