TRIGGERnometry - Norman Brennan on Knife Crime and Chaos on the Streets

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.580 I'm Constantine Kissing.

00:00:09.920 And this is the show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

00:00:16.500 At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:00:21.280 Our fantastic expert guest this week is a retired police officer of 31 years

00:00:25.920 and a leading law and order campaigner who specializes in gun and knife crime.

00:00:31.180 Norman Brennan, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:33.240 Good morning to you.

00:00:34.140 Thanks very much for coming. We really appreciate your time.

00:00:36.660 For anyone who doesn't know, you just tell us briefly who you are, how are you, where you are,

00:00:41.020 what's been your journey through life that's taken you to this chair?

00:00:44.100 Well, as you introduced me, I'm a retired police officer, 31 years.

00:00:47.640 I joined at the age of 19.

00:00:50.280 I was very streetwise when I joined the job.

00:00:52.440 I'd teamed up with different mates of mine

00:00:56.140 done a bit of boxing

00:00:57.020 done different jobs

00:00:58.500 was a butcher

00:00:59.140 drove lorries

00:01:02.580 done various jobs

00:01:05.580 and I reached a stage when I was 19

00:01:07.800 that you know you could go one of two ways

00:01:10.040 I was liaising with mates

00:01:11.940 some were criminals believe it or not

00:01:13.840 and others weren't

00:01:15.980 and even the criminals were characters

00:01:18.880 they weren't bad bad guys

00:01:21.000 but I could see them going down the wrong path and like a lot of people if you hang around with

00:01:26.600 that lot you might find yourself being drawn into problems and I remember one particular time

00:01:32.600 I'd had a row with a large lot of guys and I walked in the pub and I was on my own and it

00:01:38.740 was a massive lot and I was looking for somebody that had talked to my moped and I said I'll be

00:01:43.620 back the following week to sort it out and I went back the following week on my own took no mates

00:01:49.760 and it was sorted out but the guy that had tortured my bike didn't want to deal with it

00:01:56.060 one of his mates who thought he was quite tasty did fortunately I could look after myself very

00:02:02.920 well and the little scuffle probably a bit more than a scuffle but no weapons thereafter

00:02:08.580 I came out on top but of course I was outnumbered so I took off and not long later I actually went

00:02:17.740 back with my team and fortunately it didn't kick off thereafter but I just thought what the hell

00:02:25.900 am I doing with my life you know if I get involved in this sort of thing I'm going to get in a lot

00:02:30.620 of trouble but I wasn't one to ever back down and I always wanted to be a police officer and I

00:02:36.660 thought this is not the right way to go so I joined the police service at the age of 19.

00:02:42.340 Well you've got the better team now if you're a police officer you can go in there and kick

00:02:46.120 everybody huh some people say we could do it lawfully but uh and legally and believe it or

00:02:52.360 not that's actually what we do the majority of the science but yeah i was 19 years of age i was

00:02:56.920 positioned all over london my force was the british transport police i had been accepted by the met

00:03:02.820 but i was actually two centimeters too short at that particular time and lots of people were not

00:03:08.400 joining other forces. So I just basically stayed with my force. I met great guys, great

00:03:15.100 women, and it was a good teamwork. And throughout the whole of my 31 years, I worked in various

00:03:22.780 positions, various stations. I was on a shield unit, did my training with the Met over in

00:03:30.880 Hounslow, was on a public order squad, travelled around the country, travelled around London

00:03:37.000 with the S.H.I.E.L.D. unit. I then went into CID as a young detective, did training with

00:03:45.860 the senior DCs, and it was quite funny when I first joined the job, there was these old

00:03:50.400 sweats that used to come in, like Jack Regan and Dennis Waterman, and there was one thing

00:03:55.900 that everybody has always said in the job, is the first thing those detectives said is

00:04:01.740 the job is fucked. And it's quite funny, actually, now, because even now, if you actually

00:04:07.500 see TJF, even people say that now. And I've always remembered that, and I thought, bloody

00:04:15.720 hell, you must be very disillusioned. But that was just the character. It was the sort

00:04:20.320 of things that people said in the job. So I then went on to various positions. I was

00:04:26.260 on a robbery squad for six years in North London. I took an interest in victims. Regularly victims

00:04:36.820 were not given the help and the support that they rightly deserved and round about the 1980s police

00:04:43.920 officers were being very seriously assaulted. The push and the punch had become the kick

00:04:48.520 and people were being attacked with weapons and in particular knives and I recall in the early 80s

00:04:56.260 I had just come back from taking the sergeant's exam and I was traveling through Victoria which

00:05:02.440 has normally got quite a lot of police officers there but that particular night all the officers

00:05:06.380 were out on football duties at football matches out on public order vehicles and there was one

00:05:11.780 female officer they used to call them WPCs now but we're politically correct now we call everybody

00:05:17.060 PC young D Cobley and there was three pickpockets that I actually came across and I attempted to

00:05:26.240 arrest two of them or all three of them but I grabbed hold of two of them and I got very

00:05:31.240 seriously assaulted. I kicked the door of the Nick and said look I need some assistance

00:05:36.480 but unbeknown to me there was one lone female officer there so I was very seriously assaulted.

00:05:44.700 Rushed to hospital that night. I mean obviously once a police officer was assaulted certainly in

00:05:48.560 those days everybody attends you know canteens empty but the canteens weren't full. Everybody

00:05:56.060 was out on other duties. So I ended up in hospital. I was in intensive care overnight

00:06:02.420 with a double suspected fracture of the skull. I was in hospital for about 10 days and I

00:06:11.920 came out and the injuries were such that part of my nose had been dislodged and I had to

00:06:18.000 have quite serious surgery. So I was off duty for three and a half months recovering but

00:06:25.180 because I had to have reconstructive surgery over the following three years I had to have a further

00:06:30.240 eight months off duty. Parts of my nose had to be cut out and restructured. So as a young PC

00:06:37.180 I was still enthused with the job but I realised the enormity of the assaults on police. So I'd

00:06:42.900 over a year off sick, my force were fantastic, my colleagues were absolutely brilliant and I'd only

00:06:49.320 been back on duty for a number of weeks and I was an area car driver and I was out with a new

00:06:57.380 acting inspector that night, showed him around London and then my own sergeant joined me and

00:07:03.840 we just had a drive out early hours of the morning. It was a hot summer's morning in early

00:07:09.100 September. I remember dealing with a publican and a cab driver as we were driving through

00:07:14.940 Victoria. They'd had a bit of a row. We resolved that. One was drunk. The other one wasn't

00:07:20.840 happy that his fare wasn't paid. Life was good. I had a terrific girlfriend on the firm

00:07:26.860 at the time. I played rugby at a very high level and life was okay. I was looking at

00:07:32.500 getting promoted within the police. And as I drove down towards Chelsea Bridge, I saw

00:07:39.300 this black guy running across the road, followed by uniformed officers that were quite a distant

00:07:44.920 behind them and i used to be able to clear 200 meters just outside the uk record and even in

00:07:51.620 full uniform i could clear a distance very quickly so i parked my area car up on the road because i

00:07:57.980 know they didn't just want to speak to him ask him if he's got a license or they want to give

00:08:02.780 him a parking ticket this was quite a serious incident i thought two o'clock in the morning

00:08:07.420 2 30 in the morning robbery burglary temp theft of vehicle so i parked my car across the road of

00:08:14.640 tight street believe it or not and I got out my car and I chased this guy down tight street

00:08:21.240 but all the cars are parked literally tight against each other so I couldn't get at him

00:08:26.220 and he was very fast as well so I run down the middle of the road and I saw a gap up the

00:08:31.140 up the towards the end of the road so I run between two of the cars and I grabbed hold of him

00:08:37.220 I didn't have my batting out or anything like that and because it was dark I didn't see that

00:08:42.500 he had a knife and he'd actually committed three aggravated burglaries, which means that

00:08:48.000 you break into properties armed with a weapon, something a householder is very concerned

00:08:53.460 about and rightly so. Anyway, I grabbed hold of him and the next thing I felt was a bit

00:08:59.860 like a stitch in my stomach. He'd actually stabbed me. So he put the blade in and it

00:09:05.840 was quite strange because everything slows down. When you've been stabbed and hundreds

00:09:11.740 of families have asked me what it's like and it's quite funny i looked down and i only had my my

00:09:17.880 summer shirt on and i could see all the blood literally coming out of my chest and my sergeant

00:09:24.860 was chasing after him and i said he's got a blade but i couldn't really speak i was sort of winded

00:09:30.080 if it's like and a lot of people say what's it like when you've been stabbed and it's serious

00:09:36.340 and it's the loneliest feeling in the world

00:09:39.820 because you can't talk.

00:09:43.160 Nobody necessarily knows exactly what's happened

00:09:45.840 because everything's happening quick,

00:09:47.900 pretty much like all the stabbings in London nowadays.

00:09:50.300 It happens so quick.

00:09:51.960 Nobody can really gather the enormity except the victim.

00:09:55.580 And I remember I was feeling,

00:09:57.360 I put my hand here and I kept seeing all the blood coming over my fingers

00:10:01.560 and I thought this is real bad.

00:10:04.520 and I actually thought shit I'm gonna die I don't talk about it often so yeah

00:10:12.540 and that happened just after I had recovered from the previous assault and I was in hospital for 10

00:10:23.080 days off sick for another 12 weeks and I didn't recover from that one and I thought something's

00:10:31.000 got to be done. Too many police officers are being assaulted. Their lives are being destroyed.

00:10:36.120 Some were murdered. And I'd recovered. And the gift that I've always been given since

00:10:42.120 that day is this, is that I've done thousands of interviews, probably 10,000 interviews.

00:10:48.040 And what people don't understand is people can say whatever they like to me. People have

00:10:52.800 tried to destroy my career because I've had the backbone to stand up and challenge the

00:10:58.000 establishment is that when you face death and you survive, every day is a gift. So whatever

00:11:07.860 anybody ever does thereafter, they can't hurt you more than what somebody nearly did. Anyway,

00:11:15.660 getting back to the point is I got demoralized, I got depressed and I started losing the will to

00:11:25.240 be a police officer. I was young. I put the first down to bad experience. The second one

00:11:31.200 really took the wind out of us, literally. And I got very demoralized. So what I did

00:11:36.700 is I went to the police service. I said, somebody's got to do something about this. So I set up

00:11:41.600 Protect the Protectors. You always hear the sign, Protect the Protectors. And I went to

00:11:45.940 the police review and I said to them, something's got to be done about assaults on police. The

00:11:51.100 sentences are disgraceful. The assaults are as bad. And they said, well, normally what happens

00:11:57.160 is, is that we run your story by your chief constable or your force just to make sure you're

00:12:02.260 happy. I said, you don't do that. I said, if they sack me, they sack me. But somebody has got to

00:12:10.700 bring this to the public's attention, the government's attention, the criminal justice

00:12:15.140 system and also chief constables. So I was the second police officer in history to break from

00:12:21.260 the ranks and demand that police were protected. The original one was a police inspector in 1919.

00:12:28.460 He was disillusioned with how the police were being neglected and failed and he broke from

00:12:34.320 the ranks. He was sacked but the police federation was thereafter launched. So that was the first

00:12:39.420 the major campaign that I launched is Protect the Protectors, giving police a voice, giving

00:12:45.500 police the protection that they need. And it was pretty successful. The government done

00:12:49.960 a U-turn on giving police side handle battens. I also campaigned for stab resistant vests,

00:12:56.320 which is what we got. I did the Tomorrow's Weld, if you remember that program. I was

00:13:00.700 there advising them on that. And also CS Spray. So for the first time since World War II,

00:13:07.160 police were given more than just a small batten and a whistle they actually had proper battens

00:13:15.320 stab resistant vests and seer spray and these were the these were the type of equipment that

00:13:21.960 would allow us to defend ourselves and tackle criminals that did what they did to me what an

00:13:29.180 amazing story and thank you so much for coming to talk to us uh i'm guessing this is the first

00:13:33.220 time in the history of trigonometry you haven't got a jock a joke no banter from you um you talk

00:13:40.320 about the job being fucked right this was what people would say at the time i don't think there's

00:13:45.440 certainly in living memory there's been a time where it seems like crime in the streets of

00:13:50.800 london knife crime gun crime the things that you talk about is worse than it is now it seems like

00:13:56.160 it's terrible doesn't it i mean we hear about people being stabbed as you were shot all the

00:14:01.520 time I mean it's a daily occurrence now what is going on in the streets of our cities we've lost

00:14:07.500 control we used to have control of the streets when I was in the job and I've been retired

00:14:13.340 10 years now we actually went out in numbers we had the numbers we had the squads and if a job

00:14:22.620 come in for example where I remember taking a crime stoppers call and I think I knew who the

00:14:28.340 informant was but it had come through anonymously and this guy had attacked his own mother I think

00:14:35.860 it was or yeah and punched her in the face knocked about nine teeth out he was a dangerous dangerous

00:14:42.280 man and I recall taking that and I turned around and I said to the DI right this guy I know where

00:14:49.360 he is I've got an address we need to nick him he said right I want two teams out who wants to come

00:14:55.160 in tomorrow morning six o'clock any rest day workings which you know were always great always

00:15:00.300 added up to the CID paid out by a pint or two when we celebrated getting a good job down or also when

00:15:07.940 we commiserated when we lost a job which we knew we should have won but the point was we had two

00:15:12.740 teams together we all went home that night went to bed four o'clock in the morning we were all up

00:15:17.820 two cars got the equipment we needed had the right people we needed we didn't fuck about in those

00:15:24.740 days nowadays you've got a pretty soft police service some pretty tough ones in those days

00:15:30.440 you know we weren't frightened of challenging anyone we knew we had the big boys with firearms

00:15:35.900 if we needed them we knew that we had the clout and the numbers to go around and we did not fuck

00:15:41.700 about we actually did the job didn't beat them up occasionally there was a very violent arrest

00:15:49.300 but we had to use the violence in response to the violence that was often portrayed to us.

00:15:57.420 Anyway, on that particular occasion, I remember I actually had one of the side addled battles on trial

00:16:02.760 because I was the lead campaigner for it.

00:16:05.020 So I took that one with me and I remember the following morning, we put the door in.

00:16:10.600 Other guys went round the back because we make sure they don't escape from windows and doors.

00:16:14.540 and i realized that you know if you can even beat your own mother up and she would very seriously

00:16:23.060 gbh but the point was we had the numbers to do the job we had the will to do the job and we wanted

00:16:30.840 to do it the sad reality today is over the last 10 years we've lost almost 22 000 frontline police

00:16:39.420 officers. Theresa May had a bit of a dream job at the Home Office. Nobody really challenged

00:16:46.280 her. And what she decided to do because of austerity is to cut policing. But she cut

00:16:54.200 policing at a time when the mood and the change on the streets of Britain had reached a stage

00:17:00.620 where guns and knives were being used at will. People would get involved in an argument

00:17:06.440 in a pub for argument's sake or in a park in a high street in a club and within minutes they have

00:17:13.240 a gun and we had we had to deal with that and more people were carrying knives more people were

00:17:21.860 carrying uh guns and we we need to be able to deal with that so what teresa may did is she started

00:17:30.260 reducing the police service and there's a chap called sir tom windsor and he was her hatchet

00:17:35.900 man. And it was just before I retired from the police service, he came in and started making

00:17:40.740 all the cuts, changing the discipline code. And he completely demoralized the British Police Service.

00:17:48.740 A few years later, as the cuts started to bite in, Theresa May, and I think it was May 2015,

00:17:55.640 she went to the Police Federation conference. And they highlighted to her the concerns that

00:18:02.140 I'd been highlighting. Ever since I broke from the ranks in the police, I would do hundreds of

00:18:07.480 interviews in my own time. I took a two-year career break to work primarily with victims

00:18:13.540 because after I broke from the ranks and launched Protect the Protectors, the public used to speak

00:18:18.740 to me all over London when I was off duty. And they said, I saw you on the television the other

00:18:23.160 day, GMTV, Sky, whatever it is, you really care about what's going on in the streets. You give

00:18:29.360 the police a voice that we haven't got as victims so strangely enough i actually launched the

00:18:35.000 victims of crime trust so i sort of rode two horses i spoke up for the police and also that

00:18:40.660 i spoke up for the victims of crime one of the points you made to me norman is that a lot of

00:18:46.860 people are living in fear now in our communities tell us a little bit more about that because as

00:18:51.500 you say you deal with victims as well as with with police officers well every every time there's

00:18:57.320 a knife attack, it causes fear. It causes fear amongst the gangs, which are not 100%

00:19:07.100 responsible. The gang stabbing shootings are about 55% and 45% come from other types of

00:19:16.340 crime. But the thing is, there are so many gangs now, I think you've got almost 200 in

00:19:21.060 London and 4,000, believe it or not, nationally, and they're up to about 100 strong. Many carry

00:19:27.300 knives some carry guns mainly they carry knives but there's a fear amongst those or fear less

00:19:35.900 depending which actually you use and these predominantly children anywhere between 13

00:19:42.780 and 19 early 20s have no value of life they will carry a gun not many but some do or have access

00:19:53.760 to a gun many will carry these dreadful looking knives that we so often see on social media and

00:20:00.580 in answer to your question why is there a fear it's because it's happening too often i mean once

00:20:06.020 you would say it's too often but these are happening thousands and thousands of times

00:20:10.620 and the sad reality is now children are killing children and in london which i've policed and i

00:20:16.520 predominantly policed high ethnic areas so i understand uh that their concerns about policing

00:20:23.120 about the criminal justice system, their attitudes, their likes, their dislikes, their contempt for us

00:20:29.500 sometimes and each other. But every time you have a stabbing and somebody dies it ricochets around

00:20:38.320 a community and when you have a stabbing where somebody dies in different parts of London the

00:20:44.380 ricochet continues and when it's a bit like a cancer it spreads and the fear of knife crime or

00:20:51.580 being involved in it or coming across it now controls some people's lives you know they won't

00:20:57.500 walk out in the streets on certain after dark for example they won't want to walk the streets in

00:21:03.340 certain areas where there's high knife crime but these this knife crime has caused a fear that i've

00:21:09.080 never ever seen in 41 years of dealing with the criminal justice system and it's out of control

00:21:15.220 And if you go back to what I was just talking about, the police federation, I broke from the ranks all those years ago on the, I think it was the 13th of December, 2004.

00:21:29.320 I was in full uniform.

00:21:30.640 There were some of the highest profile homicide families who had been stabbed to death.

00:21:35.100 And I launched Knives Destroy Lives.

00:21:37.680 I went to number 10 Downing Street.

00:21:39.440 I thought I'd get sacked again.

00:21:40.480 But because a third of the police service had signed my original petition, politicians and chief constables were loathed to sack us so I could basically do what I wanted within reason.

00:21:51.780 And I always made sure it was done professionally and, you know, with respect.

00:21:57.340 But I went to number 10 Downing Street, and I predicted a knife crime epidemic.

00:22:03.180 Two or three years beforehand, I predicted the gun crime epidemic.

00:22:08.360 And in my penultimate paragraph to the Queen, which I've still got now,

00:22:12.940 I said, unless your government gets this act together,

00:22:16.200 gun crime is going to be epidemic on our streets,

00:22:19.060 and more and more children are going to be using guns.

00:22:22.520 And I said, within two years.

00:22:24.380 And I've got the letter and I can prove it.

00:22:26.340 Within two years, I was almost spot on.

00:22:28.760 That was what happened.

00:22:29.960 So back in 2013, I'd been stabbed,

00:22:34.260 and I took a very keen interest in knife crime.

00:22:37.660 And day in and day out, I dealt with offenders. I dealt with victims. I dealt with the public. Plus, I advised the whole country through national media. Often, I could speak to millions of people at a time. Where they thought they couldn't use force, they couldn't do this, what can they do there? I used to be out, although I knew the law inside out, I didn't want to bore them with acts and sections. I told them what they could and what they couldn't actually do.

00:23:00.980 but there we were and here we are all these years on the stabbings are happening at will

00:23:09.420 and only a week or two weeks ago i think there was five six stabbings murders in a in a five-day

00:23:17.000 period then the following week there were four shooting murders along with stabbing murders

00:23:23.780 so in answer to your question all of these cause fear and not only that is that every time certainly

00:23:32.380 we within policing know every time it's a gang related crime within minutes or hours the

00:23:39.100 a grieved gang that has just lost a member or just had a member very seriously injured

00:23:44.140 will be looking for retaliation they go out on the tube mopeds pedal cycles cars you name it

00:23:52.180 motorbikes. They will go out looking for immediate revenge. So the public rightly would say,

00:23:58.520 I hope you, the police, are predicting on what they're going to do. But when you've got 200

00:24:03.320 gangs in London alone, up to 100 strong, we can't watch them all. And we have lost nearly 22,000

00:24:11.880 police officers. And Theresa May has probably almost single-handedly, with the help of Sir

00:24:19.640 Tom Windsor, who was actually knighted after he crippled the police service and is now

00:24:25.440 Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, which just rubs all our noses in it.

00:24:31.460 They have all but destroyed British policing. And people say, Norman, destroyed British

00:24:37.280 policing? No, we see them, but they're still out and about. Well, do you?

00:24:41.040 No, not really.

00:24:41.960 You don't see them?

00:24:42.700 You don't.

00:24:43.140 Right. I was going to ask this question, because this has been something that people routinely use to critique Sadiq Khan.

00:24:53.560 How much responsibility does he have as London Mayor for what is happening on our streets?

00:24:58.680 He has some responsibility. He's obviously like the police crime commissioner for the Met Police.

00:25:04.580 But the government are the ones that have got the real big purse strings.

00:25:07.980 The unfortunate thing with Sadiq Khan is he's out of touch.

00:25:13.140 He has his own little niches about air pollution, which I know is very important.

00:25:17.920 And he seems to look after his own little groups that he likes.

00:25:22.520 And he's all but ignored knife crime, gun crime.

00:25:27.820 And we within policing and the criminal justice system, certainly campaigners like myself,

00:25:33.400 look to people like him to stand up, speak out and put in a plan of action to make sure the streets of London are safe.

00:25:43.140 And the sad reality is all we get is window dressing.

00:25:47.240 We get a nice door, we get nice windows.

00:25:50.360 They've got lovely plants in them and they've got lovely curtains.

00:25:55.360 You actually open the curtains and open those windows.

00:25:59.320 Behind them is chaos on the streets of London.

00:26:02.920 So what Sadiq Khan does is he says, yes, I know there's a problem, but don't worry.

00:26:07.620 Do you realise both he and Theresa May, when she was their Home Secretary, wanted to take the Metropolitan Police to court so they would be forced to reduce stop and search?

00:26:22.960 And here we are now in 2019.

00:26:28.140 Both Sadiq Khan and Theresa May are almost pleading the police service to carry out more stop and searches.

00:26:37.000 because within policing we said okay we'll stop it the police are not backed up and when you

00:26:44.400 actually look at the realities getting back to your knife crime is certainly within the black

00:26:49.280 community and the reason i talk about the black community is that is what is happening in london

00:26:53.400 and anytime anybody wants to talk about a race issue or a black issue they're accused of being

00:27:00.260 racist. Well, by telling people the truth, as I see it, by telling people the facts, you're sharing

00:27:07.640 what our concerns are, because often there are people in the black community that share our

00:27:12.260 concerns. But there are also the anti-police groups and community leaders, some of them,

00:27:17.600 that just will never work with the police. So that is the difficulty that we've always had.

00:27:23.400 But just getting back to that point, just look at all these parents that have had a son stabbed to death.

00:27:34.840 He's gone out, 2 o'clock in the morning, 3 o'clock in the morning, 14 years of age, 16 years of age,

00:27:41.740 with his mates, often gang members themselves, and has lost his life.

00:27:47.460 And he's taken to a mortuary.

00:27:49.380 Our mortaries are filled now with kids all over London and other parts of Britain.

00:27:55.820 With children.

00:27:57.880 They've often not got a name, although they have got a name.

00:28:01.280 What they've got is a tag around their big toe with their name and a number.

00:28:05.480 So many of these kids have got numbers.

00:28:08.280 And when somebody's murdered, a police officer known as a family liaison officer

00:28:11.900 will go to the mortuary with the parents to ID the child if they haven't been ID'd at hospital,

00:28:18.320 which is where it often happens.

00:28:21.340 And there is a child that was alive six hours ago.

00:28:25.700 There is a child that that parent was looking forward to growing up,

00:28:30.480 doing well in life, settling down, having children,

00:28:35.760 and hopefully being there for them in their old age.

00:28:39.740 And there they are dead.

00:28:41.200 So you've got parents now planning funerals rather than futures.

00:28:46.380 so they in their bereft state are falling into the arms of my colleagues in the family liaison

00:28:54.160 units and senior investigating officers pleading with us please make my son the last one so the

00:29:02.440 onus is on us we have to go out and we have to try and make sure that that son is the last one

00:29:09.520 but we know that that son is not going to be the last one because dealing with the crimes that we

00:29:14.540 have to deal with, with so few officers. And there are some people that hate the police so much that

00:29:20.160 they would never ever work with us. We know that there are many people in the black community

00:29:25.100 that want rid of these gang members. They want rid of these knifings and shootings.

00:29:30.300 So getting back to your point 20 minutes ago, there is a fear of crime and being victim of a

00:29:38.080 crime that I've never known in 41 years of policing, and I've looked right back to the

00:29:45.160 First World War. I've never seen crime, violent crime, gun crime, knife crime, as bad as it is

00:29:52.560 now. But the thing that concerns me even more is that we within policing have the inability

00:30:00.780 to effectively deal with it and reassure the public. And I think we should be honest with

00:30:06.680 the public. If we can't cope, we should tell the public we can't cope. We should tell them

00:30:12.380 the reasons. And if anybody ever believes that we don't care, I didn't join the police

00:30:19.180 service and nor does tens of thousands of others to persecute motorists, to stop and

00:30:25.800 search black suspects. That is a small part of the job that we join to do. But it's an

00:30:33.100 important part of the job nowadays because we have to try and stop these children killing each other

00:30:39.920 and the sad reality is and I'm ashamed to say it because a lot of people do listen to us whether

00:30:45.520 they take notice or not I don't know but we've lost the streets of Britain we've lost the streets

00:30:52.680 of London and for any police officer or retired police officer to say that who has a passion

00:30:58.240 about law and order as I do, I dedicated most of my life to policing the streets of London,

00:31:03.940 policing Britain, basically. And for me to be saying this now, it's just like a nightmare. I

00:31:09.720 never thought in my wildest of dreams that I would ever be saying to anybody that ever wants to

00:31:15.540 listen, as someone that is a professional law and order campaigner and represents huge numbers of

00:31:21.900 people that the police have lost the streets of Britain and Norman you seem to think or you seem

00:31:30.680 to say that it's a lot of this is down to austerity is it just cuts to the police service or there are

00:31:36.020 other factors to blame as well it is it is basically that that is the starting point that

00:31:41.920 is the heartbeat that is the heartbeat of where it all started um I mean Sadiq Khan again said just

00:31:48.540 a couple of days ago although this will be going out sometime later so it might be a number of

00:31:53.360 weeks ago he said a lot of the problems are down to poverty well I disagree I disagree it's not

00:31:59.740 down to poverty at all after world war ii you had a country that had fought to keep us safe

00:32:09.520 that had fought for rights hundreds and hundreds of thousands of young men and some women lost

00:32:16.620 their lives to give us the freedoms that we've got today which are often abused but my point is

00:32:22.640 they were on ration books then they didn't have flash cars iphones flat screen tvs the pubs and

00:32:31.580 the freedoms that they've got now that was what i would say was poverty now you've got kids with

00:32:39.500 the latest trainers they've got their iphones they've got cars they smoke they buy their drugs

00:32:45.500 it's not to do with poverty it's to do with the freedom of being able to do what they want to do

00:32:53.880 and some have chosen to commit crime they've chose chose to blight the lives of others and some of

00:33:00.180 these kids as which which really concerns me deeply is they have no value of life and it

00:33:06.880 frightens me because if you have no value of life it means that you don't care if you lose your own

00:33:12.920 You don't care if you lose or if somebody else is you take somebody else's life and in seconds you can stab somebody and you will be serving 20, 25 years in prison and you will have taken somebody's life.

00:33:30.400 And often it's because you're standing on the wrong side of the road.

00:33:34.440 You've shown a bit of disrespect.

00:33:36.620 There's been a bit of drill music.

00:33:38.340 You've taunted each other on social media.

00:33:41.060 I've even represented families.

00:33:42.720 I mean, I've met over a thousand families personally that have had somebody murdered in Britain.

00:33:48.180 I used to represent and very good friends with Sarah Payne, Damilola Taylor, Denise Bolger, Leslie Ann Downey's family murdered by Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.

00:34:00.360 I've met these people. I've stayed with them.

00:34:03.460 I understand the enormity of losing a child.

00:34:08.680 And the public don't. They say how dreadful it is.

00:34:12.720 And we spoke a bit earlier on, which I'll clarify now.

00:34:16.060 The public ask us, why doesn't somebody do something?

00:34:20.200 Why doesn't it change?

00:34:21.520 Why does it have to be this bad?

00:34:23.860 And the sad reality is, and this is me basically having a bit of pop at the public,

00:34:28.560 it's because the public are apathetic.

00:34:31.200 The public could cause change.

00:34:33.140 On a Monday, you've got issue A.

00:34:35.800 There's been a shooting.

00:34:37.120 Another child has been shot dead.

00:34:39.380 On the Tuesday, something else happens.

00:34:41.720 You know, you've got Donald Trump saying something quite outrageous, sending a tweet.

00:34:47.820 Well, that's every day, mate.

00:34:48.980 Exactly.

00:34:50.440 But my point is, all the issues we had concern with on the Monday, by the Friday, have been forgotten.

00:34:57.560 And the reason why thousands of people say, Norman, surely if the government know it's that bad, they would do something about it.

00:35:04.740 And I'd say, that sounds pretty sensible and straightforward, but let me tell you how it works.

00:35:10.100 The government are like a formidable castle. They're not stupid. They know the psychology of society and they know that the issues that a lot of people are concerned with on Monday will be gone and changed by the Friday.

00:35:24.180 We never focus on one particular issue. So when people say, why aren't there more police? Why aren't the courts doing their job? Why don't the sentences fit the crime?

00:35:33.820 it's because we never concentrate on one single issue it's a bit like when you get somebody coming

00:35:41.840 in to become the new prime minister they will or even a political party the mps will make

00:35:49.520 dozens and dozens of promises to lure you in to hook you in to vote for them and then for the

00:35:55.820 next three to five years everybody's scratching their heads and their bums saying what about all

00:36:00.780 those things you promised and that is the scenario the government are very good on psychology if ever

00:36:07.020 we could get the whole of britain to say stop what happens on monday we will concentrate on

00:36:14.800 we will make sure that the government listen they fund it for example that they might say

00:36:20.440 we want our 22 000 police officers back but in addition we want 10 000 more and people say well

00:36:28.460 Hang on a minute. Why do you want that 10,000 more?

00:36:30.940 Well, after the Charlie, the Charlie, the journalists that were killed in Charlie Hebdo, sorry, Charlie Hebdo.

00:36:39.860 After that, I think it was about nine or 12 journalists were shot dead over there.

00:36:43.560 I did the Sky interviews. And when I was doing the interviews, the French police or the French government said we are going to increase our police establishment by 10,000.

00:36:55.700 We knew within MI5, MI6 and the anti-terrorist squad,

00:36:59.840 we knew that Britain would be hit at some time in the future.

00:37:03.420 So instead of increasing the British police establishment by 10,000,

00:37:10.440 we reduced them by almost 22,000.

00:37:13.700 So when you look out there now,

00:37:15.920 we can't deal with gun crime, knife crime and violent crime.

00:37:18.940 We do a fantastic job on stopping terrorists.

00:37:22.320 But the real reality is, is that under this government, and I am not politically motivated, I am politically homeless. If this government done great, I'd tell you. But this government under Theresa May has put this country at great risk, not only by terrorism, because we haven't got the numbers to do it, although we certainly have put the funding there.

00:37:47.220 But criminals now can walk the streets, drive the streets, walk into people's houses at will, shoot them, stab them, beat them up, steal their cars, steal their bikes, make their lives a misery, and walk off or drive off laughing.

00:38:08.440 And we can hardly do anything about it.

00:38:12.560 I'm angry about it.

00:38:14.500 I'm ashamed about it.

00:38:15.720 And I think the public need to be told the truth, that the police join the police to keep the peace, to interact with them, keep them safe and challenge the bad guys.

00:38:28.300 We don't, unfortunately, we don't do any of them.

00:38:30.400 What about the social factors? You and I talked before the interview as well about a guy we had on the show, Dr. Tony Sewell, who was talking about the breakdown of the family, particularly in the black community where he's from.

00:38:42.660 And he was talking about the fact that a lot of these kids are growing up without fathers and that they don't have a strong male role model.

00:38:49.400 They don't have anyone checking their worst impulses at home.

00:38:52.260 They don't have someone to show them how to be a man in the world.

00:38:55.580 Do you think that's an issue that causes crime as well?

00:38:59.440 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

00:39:00.920 I mean, when I was in the robbery squad for six years, I worked around the clock on dealing with robbers, armed robbers.

00:39:08.160 not as many armed robberies

00:39:10.980 but that was part of our remit on my squad

00:39:13.160 but it was street robberies

00:39:15.260 at gunpoint and predominantly

00:39:16.680 at knife point

00:39:17.960 and I used to remember when we used to drive

00:39:20.800 a juvenile home because a lot of them were very

00:39:23.180 young and we used to knock on the door

00:39:25.320 of a housing

00:39:27.220 estate, Stonebridge Park, Acton, you name

00:39:29.320 it, all over London, not any particular

00:39:31.260 place and we used to knock

00:39:33.180 on the door and mum used to come

00:39:34.420 to the door and we used to look and see there

00:39:37.180 were two or three other children there. And we say, by the way, he's on bail now. He's

00:39:42.680 got to come back to the police station with making further inquiries. Do you know your

00:39:47.380 son pulled a knife out on someone today? If he'd stabbed them, they probably would have

00:39:51.560 been kept in custody. And he terrified them. And mum wasn't nonchalant, but it's as though

00:39:58.920 I can't cope. And we used to drive back to the police station and we used to say to each

00:40:05.220 other in the car what chance has he got you know and what has happened is and the psychology of

00:40:11.900 a lot of youngsters is is that dad likes having sex and often he likes having sex with a number

00:40:19.680 of women no responsibility so children get into this world not wanted not planned they become

00:40:30.480 part of sex where most people that have sex will take precautions or if they want children they

00:40:37.740 would have thought i want a child and i want a child because i want our lives to be better i

00:40:45.280 want us to pass on to the next generation a child that's loved wanted educated nurtured

00:40:50.840 these kids are none of them and what often happens is they start off

00:40:56.000 when they're like 10 or 11 walking around the housing estates and what they do is they meet

00:41:03.100 like-minded individuals and because dad's often not been around they see these other kids as part

00:41:10.960 of their family often it will the crime will start with bullying on the school playground

00:41:17.260 robbing people or taking people's dinner money away often enough they'll then be excluded mum

00:41:24.080 can't cope. So when they're excluded, they're walking the streets. It then becomes cash

00:41:30.080 point thefts, stealing money off of people that come from cash points. And then they

00:41:35.100 get known by older gang members of being pretty streetwise and they're recruited to protect

00:41:41.280 the turfs. And before they know it, they've been drawn into a world that they've really

00:41:46.980 almost known nothing. Nobody loves them. Nobody wants them. There's nothing to do. They've

00:41:53.160 got energy they've lost and that's why they're sad the last 10 years we got lost generation

00:41:59.340 and the sad reality is they form the gangs that I spoke to you a bit about earlier on they have

00:42:04.780 that they have no values but they actually feel that the people that like them that need them

00:42:09.400 want them that they get something from are like-minded children so they become a unit they

00:42:15.800 become a family unit of criminals and we've got to disperse these family units of criminals

00:42:24.400 and show them there is another way and we've got to invest in their futures because

00:42:29.840 this generation that we're breeding are going to be handing over to the next generation

00:42:37.020 and if carrying a gun, carrying a knife, stabbing somebody to death, robbing people at knife

00:42:44.120 point, breaking into their homes, raping people, doing exactly what they want to do, knowing that

00:42:51.480 there are no police to do anything about it. And even our courts, the youth justice board,

00:42:56.140 the magistrates, the judges, they have all become social workers. So getting right back

00:43:03.560 to the beginning of this interview, who cares about the public? Who cares about the public

00:43:11.280 safety. Who cares about the victims? The victims that have been left behind, often with broken

00:43:18.120 lives, maimed. They've had items stolen in a burglary that can never be replaced. It will

00:43:24.200 remain with them forever. The young female that lives on her own. Maybe her underwear drawer has

00:43:29.900 gone through, been gone through by people she deems as grubby hands. Are they going to come

00:43:35.320 back next time and rape her? She will throw all her clothes away. Often if she can, she will move.

00:43:40.340 mum and dad may insist it, insist upon it. Who cares about the public and who cares about the

00:43:47.140 victims? We have almost taken that pendulum and swung it in the favour of the criminal element

00:43:55.520 and that pendulum has stuck in the roof. And if society wants to see a safer Britain, a better

00:44:02.780 Britain, a Britain where the police patrol and rule the streets on behalf of society, because

00:44:09.420 don't forget police are not robocops they're not born as i said earlier on just to nick motorists

00:44:15.440 to stop black people they join a job they're the public the public are the police the police are

00:44:22.080 the public and everybody has got to remember that we're not infallible we hurt we cry we bleed and

00:44:28.480 sometimes protecting society we die and too many police officers now are being assaulted pretty

00:44:34.260 much like i was all those years ago and we have got a criminal justice system that cares more

00:44:39.980 about the criminal and their rights and we hear about it all the time but i'm not here is that

00:44:47.060 i've got nothing to gain by being here apart from telling people the truth the truth that they never

00:44:53.880 ever hear because chief constables are never going to tell you we've got a knife crime we can't cope

00:44:58.740 only a year ago, Cressida Dick, she waited for a sort of respite period about six to eight weeks

00:45:05.660 where the stabbings had gone down. And she came out and said, we've got a problem with knife

00:45:11.120 crime, but it's not a crisis. The next day and the day after, there was about four or five

00:45:16.080 stabbing murders. So police chief constables, crime commissioners, they are not going to come

00:45:22.440 on national television or in the media and tell you the truth. They are going to tell you what

00:45:27.240 they think you ought to know but I think as a caveat to this part of the interview

00:45:31.980 is if you're honest with the public and you tell them the truth they will respect you more for it

00:45:39.880 and they will be more willing to work with you to cause change but the more we hide the true facts

00:45:46.460 from the public and it's difficult to hide it from them now because they see on a daily basis

00:45:50.760 how bad it is the less we as a team are going to make it change and the pointer for this is this

00:45:57.680 is whilst the public the police the government the criminal justice system are all blaming each

00:46:05.340 other for problems that we're all partly responded for who is concentrating on kids killing each

00:46:12.780 other on homeowners frightened that somebody's going to break into their home or being a victim

00:46:18.440 of crime when all we do is argue about who's responsible and we don't concentrate on the

00:46:24.360 offenders. If we could cut the fuel off for those that are committing crime it means that we can

00:46:31.000 take a lot of them away from the bad sort of things in life that they feel sort of gives them

00:46:39.040 some hope and that is crime. We increase police numbers and concentrate on those that are not

00:46:45.380 prepared to learn and the cohesion of everyone working together instead of blaming each other

00:46:50.340 might just be the start of the answer that everyone is looking for norman we had matthew

00:46:56.220 paris on who as you as you know he's a former conservative mp and when we were talking about

00:47:01.480 knife crime because i put these same questions to him he believed that knife crime was a fad or is

00:47:06.600 a fad and it will soon die out where do you stand on that he's a politician isn't he former politician

00:47:13.960 Former, yeah, I know him.

00:47:15.220 Journalist now.

00:47:16.120 Yeah.

00:47:17.220 Well, I've been a police officer for 31 years.

00:47:21.980 I've been involved in the criminal justice system for 40 years.

00:47:26.540 I've probably done in the region of 10,000 interviews in the national media,

00:47:31.480 not because I'm just angry.

00:47:36.020 It's because I care.

00:47:37.820 And I've researched all of my subjects.

00:47:41.620 I sometimes know that the police get things wrong.

00:47:45.220 Have we stopped black people in the past for no reason at all?

00:47:49.200 I'm sure we have.

00:47:51.120 You know, we are not infallible.

00:47:52.900 But the point is, I understand what is happening in the criminal justice system,

00:47:59.680 what is happening in the real world.

00:48:01.560 I've dealt with the public, I've dealt with the victims,

00:48:04.680 and I've dealt with policing, the criminal justice system,

00:48:07.860 all the agencies connected within the criminal justice system and in answer to his comment of

00:48:16.400 it's a fad i think in the interview i'll tell you exactly how i see knife crime it started when i was

00:48:23.960 a young pc i became a victim of it i then went to the country and the government to try and stop

00:48:31.520 my colleagues and the public being stabbed or certainly making sure that we had the protective

00:48:37.000 equipment and the courts actually increased the sentences to give a deterrent and it's out of

00:48:44.420 control 15 20 25 years it's not got better it's not been a fad it is now a reality of life on the

00:48:52.580 streets of london and many others in britain before we wrap up the interview we've probably

00:48:58.560 got about 10 minutes i wanted to address the race issue because you brought up a number of times

00:49:03.420 And you and I talked previously about this. Just break down for people. Why is there the perception that stop and search is a racist policy? Why is there the perception that the police target and mistreat ethnic minorities? Why is there this sense in some quarters that the police treat people of different ethnic backgrounds differently?

00:49:25.400 We deal with everybody on the crime that they commit.

00:49:30.160 Now, the type of crime that a number of young black kids commit in London

00:49:35.800 are street robberies, and these are often at knife point.

00:49:40.400 So you're saying they commit that crime more than other ethnic groups?

00:49:44.360 Yes, certainly within London.

00:49:46.880 But you've then got to say, OK, who's going to deal with that crime?

00:49:50.320 Well, you've got the police.

00:49:51.080 The police have to deal with that crime.

00:49:53.120 is something we can't ignore and because it's something we can't ignore we're interrupting

00:49:57.820 their criminal behavior and when we act when we're interrupting people's criminal behavior

00:50:03.320 they don't like it they're not they're not going to be cooperative some are i've stopped probably

00:50:11.280 two or three thousand young black lads and white lads as well in my 31 years and one of the myths

00:50:19.420 that everybody sees and they can't quite work out is why so many black children are stopped and

00:50:24.920 searched more than white. Well, here's an example that nobody ever thinks of, and I know, is this.

00:50:30.260 When I was on a robbery squad and we were told seven black youths has robbed someone in Warwick

00:50:35.460 Road, London, for example, I would attend there with my team in an unmarked police car. The area

00:50:43.540 would be flooded with uniform cars, area cars, response cars, blues and twos.

00:50:50.120 We get description from the witness and the victim.

00:50:53.980 And often it will be somebody was wearing a duffel coat, you know, a hoodie,

00:50:58.440 whatever it is, a bandana, you name it.

00:51:00.880 So when we're attending these areas that are highly ethnic areas,

00:51:05.820 we will see people that fit the description.

00:51:08.440 How often has someone said, they all look the same, whoever they are.

00:51:12.560 They all look the same in that particular area.

00:51:14.840 Well, when you're a police officer going in there, you are looking and you're thinking, well, he fits a description, so does he.

00:51:20.680 And the other thing what the public don't always know is that when a robbery is committed by a gang, they swap clothes.

00:51:27.260 So the descriptions on some are different.

00:51:29.420 So we stop as many as we can.

00:51:31.900 A, they could be a suspect.

00:51:33.560 B, to speak to them, to see who they are, where they have been.

00:51:38.120 That is our job.

00:51:39.460 And I make no apologies.

00:51:41.660 That is the job that the public expects us to do and we need to do.

00:51:45.540 But the thing is, under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act for stop and search,

00:51:50.120 we have to write down everybody that we have stopped.

00:51:54.480 So just suppose in that incident we have stopped 40 people, 50 people.

00:51:59.580 All the officers make their notes.

00:52:01.220 They go in to admin.

00:52:02.980 That then goes on for the statistics.

00:52:05.120 but during the course of that day there was 14 or 15 burglaries within that borough or elsewhere

00:52:12.020 but because the householder was out we weren't called to that burglary it was being committed

00:52:17.980 they got the goods they had it on their toes so when they come home they phone the police and say

00:52:23.760 in those days we used to attend every burglary and they said oh we've been burgled look they've

00:52:29.800 done this oh dear me the dreadful things that a burglary victim feels we're not going to

00:52:34.820 neighbour's door. We make a few inquiries. We get some CCTV. There was three white youths hanging

00:52:40.020 around outside. There was two white youths. Somebody said, none of them will be stopped

00:52:45.040 and searched. We will try and get photos. We will put intelligence out of the clothes that they wear

00:52:50.380 for them to be stopped at a later date. But that day, seven or eight robberies might have taken

00:52:55.720 place involving one to seven to 12 black suspects. And we flood the area every time because it's a

00:53:03.640 999 call, any unit available. And that is often why the number of stop and searches are high.

00:53:12.460 They're also saying young black men go to prison for or youth custody for longer than white people.

00:53:19.040 Well, the types of crimes that we arrest them for, such as street robbery with a knife or where

00:53:24.700 someone has been seriously injured, is worthy of a serious, stiff sentence. And let me just

00:53:31.620 finish off by saying this. Forget about the black, forget about the white. Let's talk about

00:53:37.700 prisons. We're often told by the government that we've got too many people in prison.

00:53:44.600 Well, let me tell you the two types of people that are in prison. Those that commit serious crime,

00:53:51.800 murder, firearms offences, rapes, stabbing somebody. It's right that they go to prison

00:53:58.720 to punish, to deter and reassure the public.

00:54:06.360 That is what is important.

00:54:07.940 The second type of people or group of people that go to prison

00:54:11.060 are those that have exhausted all of the alternatives to imprisonment

00:54:15.860 from a verbal warning right up to a suspended sentence.

00:54:20.560 And many courts bend over to contortionism not to send people to prison.

00:54:24.740 But like the first one, people have to be deterred. The people have to be punished. Other offenders have to be deterred. The public has to be reassured. So they're the two types of people that go to prison.

00:54:38.060 And if they're the two types of people that a magistrate or judge deems have committed such a serious crime or such persistent crime that the public need to be protected from them, how can we have too many people in prison?

00:54:53.240 The true answer is this, is that the government and the criminal justice system, despite all of the introductions of a plethora of community sentences, have failed to find anything that works other than imprisonment.

00:55:11.080 And now we're looking at not sending people to prison for offences up to six months.

00:55:15.860 We have no policing on the streets to effectively police.

00:55:20.160 If you're stabbed or shot, we will find officers to come there.

00:55:24.140 So when you first asked me the question at the beginning of this interview,

00:55:28.240 why is Britain in chaos as far as law and order is concerned?

00:55:34.720 I'm privileged to probably be the single person in Britain

00:55:39.660 that has the unique job of being able to speak up on policing,

00:55:44.320 victims and the public and if I would love to be here telling you that things were far more rosier

00:55:53.660 than they are but they're not all of the things that I've told you are from my heart they're the

00:55:59.680 truth you can challenge me and I'm one of these people I know I'm not slick and smooth pink and

00:56:05.640 fluffy I tell you the facts and I tell you the truth as I see them and I have a wealth of

00:56:11.200 experience. In over 10,000 media interviews, it's clear that the media and the public want to hear

00:56:17.880 what someone like me says. And I often tell you what tens of thousands of frontline police officers

00:56:24.920 can't, senior officers never do, but the public and victims want to. So in conclusion,

00:56:32.260 we can make a difference. We can take the streets back. And we need someone with a passion

00:56:39.340 and a vision, leadership and someone that can actually stand

00:56:47.080 and look at the battle ahead without getting distracted.

00:56:51.780 And I haven't seen anyone that I can really believe has got those skills.

00:56:57.980 I was going to say, I was going to say, it's a good job Boris Johnson is about to be Prime Minister.

00:57:05.120 Yeah, I like the fact Norman isn't laughing, that probably says it all.

00:57:08.840 It's a very serious issue, obviously, but Boris is not going to be that person, is he?

00:57:13.100 No, Boris is not that man.

00:57:15.200 To finish off with, if we've got two minutes.

00:57:17.280 Yeah, we have.

00:57:17.940 Absolutely.

00:57:18.520 Go for it.

00:57:19.980 All those years ago when I wrote to the Queen, I'm just a normal bloke, but I've been gifted with a vision.

00:57:28.880 And when I wrote to the Queen, a five-page letter, hardly any media covered it.

00:57:32.900 I went to Buckingham Palace and I said that gun crime would be out of control within two years and committed by children. It was. On the 13th of December, just a couple of years later, 2004, I predicted that we were going to have a knife crime epidemic in Britain and that we needed to act and do something about it.

00:57:54.620 and I wasn't able to ignite the public interest.

00:57:58.180 I got huge media coverage and a double page spread

00:58:01.020 in nearly every sort of the national newspaper

00:58:05.600 and on the Sundays the whole, the red tops it was.

00:58:10.520 But nothing ever, ever changed.

00:58:13.600 And here we are 25 years on

00:58:17.260 and I've told you about the history of what's happened.

00:58:22.080 We predicted at the Police Federation

00:58:24.120 when Theresa May accused the police federation of crying wolf

00:58:27.460 that things were getting out of control.

00:58:29.920 Everything I've said, everything the police federation

00:58:32.540 that represent the whole police service has said has come true.

00:58:36.200 And we now have 22,000 less police officers to do anything about it.

00:58:41.320 I can put as pressure from my angle as I can on the establishment

00:58:46.000 on what they need to do, but they don't listen to people like me.

00:58:49.280 They like to listen to people that they control.

00:58:52.020 But I can leave on a positive, and that's this, is that for the last 10 or 15 years, I've been working on a 10-year plan to revolutionise and turn the criminal justice system around.

00:59:05.480 And because I've spoken about it in the media, the government, some MPs, Sadiq Khan, have all talked about a 10-year plan.

00:59:12.740 The trouble is, none of them know what the 10-year plan is.

00:59:16.440 They just have seen it, and I've had a pop at them on social media saying that we need the 10-year plan.

00:59:21.360 Well, I've got three of the top retired homicide detectives in Britain that are the trustees of the Law and Order Foundation that I have set up.

00:59:32.760 And I've got a vision of a 10-year plan on engaging with the types of children and youths that I've discussed throughout this interview.

00:59:43.080 and also that we need a national resource centre in Britain

00:59:48.280 where victims of crime and the public have got an independent organisation

00:59:54.100 that campaigns and represents them.

00:59:58.140 We also need to build probably five or six respite locations in Britain

01:00:03.640 for families who have been bereaved by homicide.

01:00:07.180 At the time of the murder, often the scene may be at home,

01:00:10.700 so that is the crime scene.

01:00:11.940 they can go somewhere pre-trial some families just need to get away because of the trauma

01:00:18.640 of the trial that's coming ahead you know the post-mortem results the six to eight 12 week

01:00:24.660 trial ahead somewhere to go or post-trial or any time thereafter so they can 52 weeks of the year

01:00:33.740 there are people in britain that have had somebody murdered that can get away from their environment

01:00:38.520 and be in a respite location, I can interact with tens of thousands of retired police officers.

01:00:45.000 Many of them are experts on family liaison and will be there to help them.

01:00:50.200 And the long-term vision, which I'm pretty excited about, but will cost billions.

01:00:55.480 And people say, Norm, you need 50 or 100,000 to start off with.

01:00:59.340 That's what we need.

01:01:00.160 The big project that I want to see within 10 years is every major region in Britain has got a unique, massive, multi-purpose community centre.

01:01:13.560 So these youngsters can get away at every school holiday, maybe 500 or 1,000 at a time, that are monitored or nurtured with role models, with mentors, with retired police officers, bank workers that want to work with youth projects.

01:01:31.460 And London go to Wales. Wales go to Scotland. Scotland go to Cornwall. Are you with me?

01:01:36.060 every school holiday and these are super community centres with accommodation and outside school

01:01:43.480 holidays they're used for community projects every day of the week the kids i've spoken to

01:01:52.500 about the youths that have got no value of life they will lose theirs or take somebody else's

01:01:58.300 if they're the types of people that are going to give the next generation the type of generation

01:02:04.580 and the types of experiences they've had,

01:02:07.800 what hope have we got for the future?

01:02:10.260 So what is the plan of the Law and Order Foundation?

01:02:12.780 It's massive, but I've got a passion as bigger now

01:02:17.360 as I did all those years ago when I nearly got murdered,

01:02:21.280 is we need to cut the fuel off to the young criminals

01:02:25.220 that are carrying knives and guns and blighting people's lives.

01:02:28.680 We're not going to stop them all, but we can stop a lot.

01:02:31.160 turn them away let's get them let's get mentors let's give them something positive to do let's

01:02:37.760 concentrate on the others that won't learn their lessons and let's make sure that people can live

01:02:42.720 in their houses walk the streets travel on transport knowing if they're a victim of crime

01:02:49.140 there will be police officers that will turn up that will listen to them we won't always make the

01:02:55.380 arrest, but at least they know that their plea for help has been heeded. Without these extra

01:03:01.580 22,000, and I think it should be 32,000, I'm afraid we've got a long, long struggle. So I

01:03:08.260 will continue to fight the good fight. And often enough, I often feel as I'm on that battle line

01:03:12.900 on my own. Just imagine if I told you on that Monday, if we can get the whole country just to

01:03:19.480 concentrate on that one issue. And this is where MPs and the rest of them can learn.

01:03:24.460 make one promise to the public and keep it rather than making dozens and keeping none

01:03:33.240 and you might be find yourself a very popular political party and politician well we might

01:03:39.740 even see it in our day happening if ordinary people are watching this or listening to this

01:03:43.820 how can they get involved with the law and order foundation and help you they can follow us on

01:03:48.060 twitter i'm i'm at norman brennan but it's also law order found they will find that on twitter

01:03:54.260 as well. And it's time really for everybody that really says, I wish somebody could do

01:04:02.980 something. You can. It's you. It's you. We can all make an effort. I mean, I have got

01:04:10.420 a passion and I've got a vision and I'm a leader. I'm a businessman now myself outside

01:04:17.860 the police. I've always led by example and I know that we could turn the criminal justice system

01:04:25.720 around. I believe that we can turn around the perception of crime, the fear of crime and the

01:04:32.600 reality of crime and we can actually start making the streets of Britain safer. But the longer we

01:04:40.160 blame someone else for the problems that we're all partly responsible for, the longer it's going to

01:04:45.920 take and it's a bit like a wound you put an elastoplast over a gaping wound it's going to

01:04:50.780 fester and it's not going to it's not going to heal well you actually put the investment in

01:04:56.260 to getting that wound cleaned stuchered rested nurtured with the follow-up treatment that wound

01:05:04.960 at the end of the day you'll still see it there but that will that will heal much quicker if the

01:05:10.080 government invest in policing and then in the criminal justice system and we have magistrates

01:05:15.100 and judges that actually start caring a bit more for the safety of society and for victims of crime

01:05:21.200 rather than becoming social workers and making excuses why they don't punish and deter young

01:05:27.180 offenders and other offenders from committing crime I'm afraid we've got no hope so I always

01:05:33.880 believe we've got hope we must always look for that shard of light and believe you me I've been

01:05:38.720 on my knees at times I know what it's like to be in absolute despair but the thing is when you go

01:05:45.720 to bed one day and you feel shit there's many people out there that have got up that felt shit

01:05:52.440 the day before or the week before that have woken up and said I feel a bit positive today

01:05:56.820 and the more that you get more and more people going to bed feeling shit but the next day they

01:06:01.960 get up feeling more positive because they can actually see a Britain where they actually will

01:06:07.400 feel safe they will know that if they're a victim of crime there will be police there for them and

01:06:12.540 they know that it will never be a perfect world even if we don't nick them at least if we turn up

01:06:17.440 and they are felt to be important which they all are victims are important why is it we only turn

01:06:23.760 up for the offenders and we rarely ever turn up if at all for the victims that's not what i join

01:06:30.080 the police service about and that is not what the criminal justice system is about either

01:06:34.040 you've got time for one more question we always have yeah absolutely and norman what is the one

01:06:38.640 thing that we're talking about that we really should be talking about i think if i was to give

01:06:45.500 a message to the people of britain is wake up from your apathy you're all concerned you all want

01:06:52.220 answers there are answers out there i'm concerned like you are but the more that you leave your head

01:06:59.220 buried in the sand, the bigger the problem is going to be and the longer it's going to take

01:07:04.900 to make sure that the streets of Britain are safe once again like they used to be.

01:07:09.560 Britain has always been renowned throughout the world of having the best police service

01:07:15.020 and the best criminal justice system. The sad reality is we've gone down the ranks quite a bit

01:07:21.920 and that blue light that used to shine bright in Dixon and Dot Green days, okay, policing has

01:07:27.080 changed has almost gone out let's clean the glass let's make it bright again and by doing that we

01:07:36.640 can actually make sure that there are police officers there for the public the public for

01:07:41.580 the police we can interact with everybody and everybody can actually start working as a team

01:07:47.160 because as I said to you a little while ago the more we blame someone else for the problems that

01:07:51.640 we're all partly responsible for, the less we're going to have time to concentrate on those that

01:07:57.320 are blight in society's lives. Well, Norman, thank you so much for coming on and talking to us.

01:08:02.440 As always, I'm sure you'll agree with me, this was another great interview, very funny and light

01:08:07.960 hearted this week. But no, I'm joking, of course, but we really appreciate your time. And I think

01:08:13.580 it's a very important message. So follow Norman, he'll be doing fundraising. And, you know, if

01:08:18.540 you're watching this and you're an influential person, please make sure you heed some of the

01:08:22.300 things that Norman has said to us. As you can tell, this is someone who says what they actually know

01:08:26.260 and think. We will see you in a week from now. Thank you very much for tuning in as always.

TRIGGERnometry - August 25, 2019

Norman Brennan on Knife Crime and Chaos on the Streets

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