TRIGGERnometry - Our Thoughts on Charlie Kirk and The Tommy Robinson Rally

00:00:00.000 This is a 30-year-old guy, a father of two young children, who are now going to grow

00:00:07.600 up without him.

00:00:09.280 When you label and smear somebody as a fascist and a Nazi, you are putting a target on their

00:00:15.000 back.

00:00:16.000 We've got to be honest and acknowledge that this is not a both sides issue.

00:00:19.320 It just isn't.

00:00:20.320 If we're going to talk about people monetizing this tragedy, I mean, what we've seen in the

00:00:25.200 last few days on the right, I think I'm probably as horrified by that as I am by the celebrations

00:00:33.200 of Charlie Cook's assassination.

00:00:35.420 The United Kingdom protest, you and I both went along.

00:00:39.640 That is another thing that, you know, there's been a lot of rhetoric about.

00:00:43.740 Smearing them as far right, smearing them as racist.

00:00:46.880 Do you not understand where this is leading?

00:00:49.240 And a week after Charlie Cook, he was continuing to use the same rhetoric, the same language,

00:00:54.540 the same words, and I'm angry and I'm angry because it's dangerous because this is a powder

00:00:59.540 kick.

00:01:00.540 Relax, relax.

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00:01:19.920 Francis, so it's been exactly a week, as we sit here recording this, since Charlie

00:01:26.100 Kirk was assassinated.

00:01:27.920 One of the things we didn't want to do is talk about it straight away.

00:01:33.420 And I think you see why.

00:01:35.940 We didn't want to talk about it while emotions are raw.

00:01:39.520 And emotions are very raw.

00:01:40.860 Look, there were raw for both of us because two days, literally 48 hours before he was

00:01:47.860 killed, we were booked to actually interview him.

00:01:50.760 And both you and I were really excited about this.

00:01:52.760 We saw Charlie as being a really important figure in MAGA, in modern day republicanism.

00:02:00.720 He was the face of conservatism, particularly for young people in America and in the UK.

00:02:06.060 This was somebody who was a galvanizing force for young people across social media.

00:02:11.220 I think he had a significant impact in the election.

00:02:13.980 People talk a lot about Rogan or the Theos having Trump on and J.D. Vance's.

00:02:18.600 I think people underestimated the real impact that Charlie had amongst people who were around

00:02:25.640 the age of 30, but also the younger people as well, galvanizing them, making them think

00:02:30.740 in a more conservative manner.

00:02:32.240 Now, this guy was a real force of conservative and Christian politics.

00:02:38.600 It's interesting you say that because I think you're right that a lot of people underestimated

00:02:43.680 him.

00:02:43.960 I don't think many people who knew him underestimated him from everyone we've spoken to, particularly

00:02:49.040 since his murder.

00:02:51.980 Lots of people were saying, like, the moment we met this guy, we knew he was going to be

00:02:55.420 president one day and we're all going to be working for him.

00:02:57.700 But actually, I would confess that I was one of the people that underestimated him because

00:03:02.560 for the reasons actually that you've outlined when you say, well, he's the Christian conservative

00:03:07.840 voice.

00:03:08.400 I'm like, we've had those on the show.

00:03:10.320 I don't really need to know much more about what that group of people think, not because

00:03:15.840 there's anything wrong with what they think, but that point of view has been well represented

00:03:20.100 on trigonometry.

00:03:21.760 But then I saw a clip of him on Gavin Newsom's podcast and they were talking about why the

00:03:28.860 left is so unwilling to engage in debate and why their ideas are so fragile.

00:03:34.000 And I thought it was incredibly insightful.

00:03:36.120 And that's when I was like, oh, OK, this guy is actually a real genuine thinker.

00:03:41.240 This is someone who has ideas of his own, who can articulate and explain things.

00:03:45.520 Not that he's heard from someone else or not that he's read in the Bible or whatever.

00:03:49.920 This guy is actually smart and talented.

00:03:52.600 And that's when we wanted to interview him.

00:03:55.420 And as you say, two days before, it was confirmed that we were going to.

00:04:00.020 So but it's not I don't think it's just about that.

00:04:02.560 You know, I don't think the reason we felt stunned and shocked by what happened is that

00:04:09.600 of our proximity to him, I just I know from speaking to lots and lots of people now.

00:04:16.800 It was just a very shocking moment for a lot of people, because partly some of the things

00:04:22.700 that many of us have been saying for a long time were actually coming true in the sense

00:04:27.140 that, you know, if if you keep labeling people as Nazis and fascists, you are going to create

00:04:36.140 a situation where some crazy guy thinks it's true.

00:04:41.680 And I've made this point many, many times.

00:04:44.420 And as a view, if you thought that our country was about to actually be overrun with Nazis and

00:04:52.940 fascists, wouldn't it be your duty to pick up a rifle and go and fight them?

00:04:59.460 Would it not?

00:05:00.120 Wouldn't that that?

00:05:01.060 I mean, that's what our grandparents did when they thought this country was about to overrun

00:05:04.860 by Nazis, they went and enlisted and fought.

00:05:08.620 Isn't that what you would expect young men to do?

00:05:12.000 Well, exactly, exactly.

00:05:13.500 But and this is the this is the very dangerous situation that we find ourselves in this country,

00:05:21.100 but more pertinently, America, where people are incentivized to use this language.

00:05:26.160 The more hyperbolic you are, the more inflammatory your choice of language, the more reactionary you

00:05:33.440 are, the greater your engagement, the greater engagement, the more followers you get, the

00:05:37.760 more followers you get, the more notoriety that you have, and ultimately, the more money

00:05:41.600 that you generate.

00:05:43.440 That is a perverse incentive structure for the commentariat class.

00:05:47.620 That is perverse because what it does is it incentivizes the worst type of behavior.

00:05:53.080 And we've seen time and time again, people on the left, but we're now seeing it with people

00:05:58.060 on the right, some people that I know and that we've even had on this show, I'm actually getting

00:06:03.880 very worried by the way that they're speaking online while I'm going, this is the type of

00:06:09.620 argument that the left were doing before.

00:06:12.100 And it's completely lacking in nuance.

00:06:14.160 It's inflammatory.

00:06:15.840 It's incendiary.

00:06:16.880 And it's appealing to our most or worse in our most base instincts.

00:06:21.080 And that is a very worrying place to be because there are people in this country and in the

00:06:27.740 United States who have very severe mental health problems, or they're vulnerable, or

00:06:31.620 they're just psychotic or whatever words you want to use, evil even.

00:06:37.640 And you're giving them a pass to go and do the most despicable things a human being can

00:06:43.800 do, which is kill another person.

00:06:45.940 Well, the permission structure is definitely, and I think there's something really, really

00:06:52.100 important for us to delineate here, because I've seen this when I've said, well, look,

00:06:56.540 when you call people Nazis and fascists, this is what you're doing.

00:06:58.820 People go, wait, are you saying words of violence, Constantine?

00:07:02.000 Oh, I got you.

00:07:03.660 No, you haven't, dickhead.

00:07:04.840 You haven't got me.

00:07:05.640 Because words of violence is a slogan that was used to say, you've said something that

00:07:10.200 offends me.

00:07:11.100 My feelings are hurt.

00:07:12.980 And that is the same as violence.

00:07:14.860 That is not the same as saying when you label somebody a fascist and a Nazi, i.e. a threat

00:07:20.300 to democracy and a threat to our country, you are putting a target on the back.

00:07:24.740 Not only are these statements not the same, in actual fact, the claim that words of violence

00:07:29.480 is another way of justifying the killing of Charlie Cook and people like him.

00:07:33.920 Because what you're saying is, his opinions are offensive to me.

00:07:38.300 That is the same as violence.

00:07:40.020 Well, if it's the same as violence, then you're necessarily, just if you look at the

00:07:44.320 way people think, if I use violence towards you, most people would agree that you're entitled

00:07:49.100 to use violence back to me.

00:07:50.980 So we're not saying words of violence.

00:07:54.140 On the contrary, we are saying words are not violence.

00:07:56.900 And this is another important part of this whole conversation.

00:08:00.100 Words are not violence.

00:08:00.960 And when someone says something that offends you, you're not entitled to use violence against

00:08:05.240 them.

00:08:06.320 But when you label and smear somebody as a fascist and a Nazi, you are putting a target on their

00:08:12.560 back.

00:08:13.500 And the thing that I think we have to concede here, I mean, you talk about the reaction

00:08:18.720 from some people on the right, and we'll get to it, because a lot of it has been really

00:08:22.760 constructive and sensible and accurate and wise.

00:08:26.300 Some of it's been deranged, as you'd expect.

00:08:29.820 But if you want to talk about deranged, you have to concede now that there is a sizable

00:08:36.620 number of people on the left who openly condone and celebrate the murder of their political

00:08:45.320 opponents.

00:08:46.280 That's a fact.

00:08:47.220 Yeah.

00:08:47.840 That is what we saw.

00:08:49.500 And, you know, look, for balance, we should also say that there are a lot of reasonable people

00:08:54.860 on the left.

00:08:55.400 I don't know if you've had, I've had hundreds of messages from people who are going, look,

00:09:00.420 I don't agree with Charlie Kirk.

00:09:02.140 I don't even agree with you, frankly.

00:09:04.100 But this is outrageous.

00:09:06.460 And the way people reacted to this is outrageous.

00:09:09.180 And this is completely unacceptable.

00:09:11.140 And I agree for our country.

00:09:12.880 I agree for our society.

00:09:15.480 So that we have seen that.

00:09:17.600 But also, let's be honest, among young people in particular, the belief that words of violence

00:09:22.880 and therefore you're entitled to use violence against people whose words you disagree with

00:09:26.620 is widespread now.

00:09:27.800 Of course.

00:09:28.400 And we saw that with the case of the Oxford Union president, where who debated Charlie

00:09:34.680 Kirk at the Oxford Union.

00:09:36.440 When he heard that he'd been assassinated, he used the words, let's go.

00:09:40.140 And then openly endorses violence against political enemies or those people he deems to be incorrect

00:09:47.360 or wrong.

00:09:48.180 And he's quite happy to admit that.

00:09:50.540 So you're going at the most prestigious debating chamber in the world.

00:09:55.000 In the world, where people go from a row across the globe to debate, to share ideas, to be in

00:10:01.560 that particular cauldron, you are advocating that it is acceptable.

00:10:07.200 If somebody says something that you disagree with, that you think is wrong, you think it's

00:10:13.520 acceptable to kill them.

00:10:15.640 That shows a moral rot at the very heart of our culture.

00:10:20.400 And the left need to be quite, and there have been people on the left, Cenk Uyghur's actually

00:10:25.300 been very good on this, who have condemned this.

00:10:27.620 But everybody needs to come out and be blunt and be honest and say, no, we cannot have this.

00:10:35.120 And Charlie said this himself.

00:10:36.500 There was a very moving interview where he said, where someone asked him why he does this,

00:10:40.260 because he said, because if we stop talking, we're going to end up at civil war.

00:10:44.000 But when you kill your enemies for talking, what are you going to stop them doing?

00:10:47.720 You're going to stop them talking.

00:10:49.800 And if we carry on down this path, that's where we end up.

00:10:53.900 Yeah.

00:10:54.160 And look, a lot of the political debate about it.

00:10:57.400 I mean, look, I respect Cenk for the way he's reacted to this.

00:11:00.980 I also have to say, and I said this to his face when I was on Piers Morgan, and we shouldn't

00:11:05.260 shy away from this.

00:11:06.400 Now, the way he's reacted to this particular incident is in an attempt to dial down the

00:11:11.120 tensions.

00:11:11.640 And I think he's right to do that.

00:11:12.740 And I respect that.

00:11:13.460 But you also have to acknowledge that when we had him on the show exactly a year ago,

00:11:18.340 he was one of the people who spent 20 minutes trying to convince me that President Trump

00:11:22.100 is a fascist.

00:11:23.160 And it wasn't very persuasive.

00:11:25.540 No.

00:11:26.000 So if this is now the opportunity for a lot of people to look at their rhetoric and dial

00:11:30.460 it back, I think we've got to encourage that and support that and respect that.

00:11:35.980 And if Cenk is one of them, brilliant.

00:11:38.060 Good on him.

00:11:38.700 And I think a lot of the things he's been saying since have been really actually exactly

00:11:42.520 the way the left should talk about these issues.

00:11:45.180 But I also think there's been far too much of this.

00:11:48.740 And people often accuse me of like being a both sides guy and looking at this and looking

00:11:53.340 at that.

00:11:54.040 And I do try to be objective about things.

00:11:57.000 But I have to say, we've got to be honest and acknowledge that this is not a both sides

00:12:01.580 issue.

00:12:02.340 It just isn't.

00:12:03.120 Yes, of course, dialing up the rhetoric has happened on both sides.

00:12:09.360 And you mentioned media commentators.

00:12:10.960 It's also true of politicians.

00:12:12.440 Politicians are incentivized to say, if we don't win this election, the roof is going

00:12:17.240 to fall in on the world.

00:12:19.120 And we are living in heated times.

00:12:21.660 And it does feel existential for a lot of people.

00:12:24.400 But there is a difference between saying, fight like hell.

00:12:29.080 This is, you know, if we lose this election, your country is gone and whatever.

00:12:32.440 That ratchets up the general pressure.

00:12:35.140 But when you call specific individuals, Nazis and fascists, that is a completely different

00:12:41.860 thing.

00:12:42.360 You're putting a target on their back because you're saying this specific person is like

00:12:47.500 this person in history who we all have been trained to hate, rightly so, for the last

00:12:52.540 70, 80 years.

00:12:53.880 If you're saying this person is Hitler, you are putting a target on their back.

00:12:59.160 That's just a fact.

00:13:00.100 And that is not the same as ratcheting up the pressure, which both sides have been doing

00:13:04.260 and both sides need to stop doing.

00:13:05.780 Yeah.

00:13:06.240 What this shows is a complete lack of education.

00:13:09.060 Because I guarantee if you sat down with these people who were throwing these words about

00:13:12.820 and going, could you please explain to me the political ideology of fascism?

00:13:16.920 What are the tenets of fascism?

00:13:18.920 Just explain it to me.

00:13:20.460 Well, we can talk communism.

00:13:22.760 We can talk liberalism.

00:13:23.580 But you've said fascism.

00:13:24.740 What does it mean to be a fascist?

00:13:26.080 What do you believe in?

00:13:26.880 What actually is fascism?

00:13:29.380 The ideology at its root.

00:13:31.100 At its roots.

00:13:32.800 I don't think they'd be able to explain that.

00:13:34.760 I don't think they'd be able to give a coherent explanation of what fascism actually is.

00:13:41.260 So to them, it's just almost just a label.

00:13:44.500 It's something that I disagree with.

00:13:46.060 It's something that is morally reprehensible.

00:13:47.680 And what they're not doing is understanding how serious that accusation is.

00:13:53.300 It's like the term pedophile.

00:13:54.800 If you didn't understand what that meant, and you just thought, oh, this is a despicable person.

00:13:59.940 Oh, he votes reform.

00:14:01.860 Oh, you're a pedo.

00:14:03.160 Well, if you say that enough time, people are going to be like, what?

00:14:05.820 Then why is he walking past the school?

00:14:07.720 And we're just like, well, I'm going to pick up my daughter.

00:14:09.160 No, you're a pedophile.

00:14:10.120 Then what happens?

00:14:11.120 That person is going to get severely hurt.

00:14:14.340 You need to actually understand what it is that you're accusing somebody of.

00:14:19.540 Because this isn't just a label.

00:14:21.880 It has a meaning.

00:14:23.300 Fascism is a political ideology.

00:14:25.920 Understand it or stop using that word.

00:14:28.980 And the same with Nazis.

00:14:30.900 And the other thing is you saw as well, I think, that there are these echo chambers now.

00:14:36.100 I mean, there are a number of people.

00:14:37.580 Stephen King, I think, was one of them.

00:14:39.400 Alistair Campbell here in Britain as well.

00:14:41.040 They both wrongly tweeted that Charlie Kirk was somebody who said that gay people should be stunned.

00:14:47.520 They shared this to millions of people.

00:14:50.220 And you're going, you clearly must know literally nothing about Charlie Kirk.

00:14:55.820 Because I didn't follow his work closely, but I broadly was aware of his work.

00:15:02.400 And there is no possible way that you can believe he said that and know anything about him.

00:15:09.440 Because you just know that is not the sort of person that he was and is not the sort of thing that he would have said.

00:15:14.860 And in any case, we've got into the politics of it quite quickly.

00:15:18.940 The thing that we need to say, look, I've said it for a week now, and maybe that's why we didn't open with it.

00:15:24.540 This is a 30-year-old guy, a father of two young children who are now going to grow up without him.

00:15:31.120 And at the end of the day, that is the only thing that matters here.

00:15:36.520 That is the only thing that matters.

00:15:38.760 A man's life has been taken away, and he has been taken away from his children and his wife for speaking to people on college campuses,

00:15:47.320 which is exactly where this kind of robust debate needed to happen.

00:15:51.600 That is what happened.

00:15:53.800 That is what happened.

00:15:55.560 And I don't know what the right word is for how wrong, evil, and horrific that is.

00:16:02.840 And for anyone to celebrate it, I just think they've got some kind of – they have been failed very badly by their education system.

00:16:13.120 And, you know, I don't know if you remember this, but when I – if you remember in 2018 when I turned down that safe space contract,

00:16:21.620 and a lot of people were saying to me, Constantine, why are you making such a big deal about it?

00:16:25.400 It's just students.

00:16:26.360 It's just people at university.

00:16:28.200 You know, they'll grow up and they'll be fine.

00:16:30.980 No.

00:16:31.880 This is what I said at the time.

00:16:33.280 You don't understand.

00:16:34.500 10, 15, 20 years from now, these very same people who are now these stupid students who are celebrating someone being murdered,

00:16:41.320 they're going to be in charge of the country.

00:16:43.580 They're going to be making decisions.

00:16:45.440 They're going to be running things.

00:16:46.660 They're going to be running banks.

00:16:47.740 They're going to be running companies.

00:16:48.840 They're going to be running political organizations.

00:16:51.460 They're going to be running the country.

00:16:54.380 And they have been indoctrinated with this horrific ideology, and they think it's fine to kill people now, some of them.

00:17:04.720 It's gross.

00:17:06.000 Look, of course it's disgusting, but I think also we have to accept as well that social media has paid its part.

00:17:11.620 In that when these people go online, they see these people not as real people, but as avatars.

00:17:18.320 These are avatars.

00:17:19.260 They're not real people.

00:17:20.080 They don't interact with them every day.

00:17:21.560 They don't see them.

00:17:22.420 They're not their friends.

00:17:23.200 And so if somebody is an avatar, they're not human.

00:17:29.200 If they're not human, it's very easy to dehumanize them, call them Nazi, call them whatever you want, because what is the impact?

00:17:36.280 It's not like I'm walking up to you at a bar and going, I think you're X, Y, and Z.

00:17:39.500 You turn around to me and go, and then a very real encounter happens because it's real life.

00:17:43.940 So if somebody dies and they're not human, then it's like a computer game.

00:17:51.040 I mean, social media in many ways is a glorified computer game.

00:17:54.420 So Charlie is assassinated.

00:17:57.740 Your enemy in the computer game is killed.

00:18:00.560 You celebrate.

00:18:01.360 And I think, as terrible as I've just explained, I think that's a large part of it.

00:18:08.960 And I think we, as a culture, as a society, as a generation, and the younger generations, we're in real danger of losing our souls and our humanity.

00:18:20.460 I don't think you're wrong about that, but I also have to push back on this as well, because I think you're right.

00:18:25.020 The effect is there, but I don't, if somebody on the left or somebody that I personally, someone who's, let's say, uber woke, right?

00:18:34.460 I don't want to name names because, you know, for obvious reasons, that people would assume that I hate because they're my political opponent.

00:18:42.660 If they were shot in front of an audience of people they came to debate and killed in that way,

00:18:53.280 I wouldn't be, I have social media, I wouldn't be celebrating, right?

00:18:57.940 I wouldn't be, I would be horrified.

00:18:59.420 Yeah.

00:19:00.440 You pick out a person that you think I hate the most in the world, whoever that is, in your head, right?

00:19:06.680 And imagine that happening to them.

00:19:08.140 And all I can think of, this is horrific.

00:19:10.280 Whoever did this obviously has to be punished to the worst extent, but we've got to like stop this.

00:19:14.680 This is completely unacceptable.

00:19:16.240 And I have social media.

00:19:17.440 I'm on Twitter all the time, but I don't want to see my political opponents killed.

00:19:20.800 So what I'm saying is, we can blame social media all we want, but there's something else going on here.

00:19:26.080 Yeah.

00:19:26.840 I also think it's a generational thing as well.

00:19:29.440 I think if you've been raised on this stuff, I think, not that you're going to, but I think you're more likely to believe and think in that way.

00:19:38.800 I genuinely do.

00:19:39.920 I think one of the things that we're very lucky is that we remember a time before social media.

00:19:45.360 We remember a time before all this stuff happened.

00:19:49.820 So because you remember a time before it happened, you have a deeper connection and rooting with reality.

00:19:55.900 And I sometimes think that, look, I think it's the ideology.

00:20:00.560 Of course, the ideology plays a part.

00:20:02.260 I'm not saying it doesn't.

00:20:04.420 I'm also saying that the way that we're interacting and staring at our screens, I think it's destroying a generation mentally.

00:20:14.120 I think it's unhelpful, but I'm sorry, Francis, I'm not, I'm not down with this.

00:20:19.180 People need to take some accountability here.

00:20:21.960 The teachers, the college professors, the influencers, the people who go on social media, the podcasters, all the people that have created an environment where young people now think violence is acceptable.

00:20:35.320 I don't give a shit about their use of social media.

00:20:38.460 Like, this is not the right way to be thinking about this.

00:20:41.960 And I'm not going to let anyone off the hook with this.

00:20:45.420 It's not acceptable.

00:20:46.780 I agree with you.

00:20:47.620 I agree with you.

00:20:48.420 I just think that is a fundamental part of the puzzle as well.

00:20:50.860 I agree.

00:20:51.380 No, that part I agree with.

00:20:52.660 But I don't think that should be remotely an excuse for this way of thinking.

00:20:56.800 The reason that they think this way is, first and foremost, what they've been taught, what they've been taught ideologically to think about their political opponents.

00:21:05.940 And this decade we've had now of constant demonization of your political opponents as Nazis and fascists, all of this, that's where this is coming from.

00:21:15.560 That's where this is coming from.

00:21:16.800 Social media, of course, you're right.

00:21:18.320 But the thing with social media is social media amplifies everything.

00:21:21.220 Yeah.

00:21:21.480 If you put good stuff out, that also gets amplified by social media.

00:21:24.920 Look, my Instagram feed is, because of what I'm following on there, it's just people talking about parenting in a funny way and whatever.

00:21:32.840 My point is, good messages also get amplified, right?

00:21:36.080 So at the end of the day, it's about people who are putting out the messages.

00:21:39.460 Yes.

00:21:39.620 Because they're the ones responsible.

00:21:41.180 Agreed.

00:21:41.900 And they need to take responsibility for that, absolutely 100%.

00:21:44.920 Because I think, and I see a lot of these people, I go, do you actually, genuinely, genuinely, do you actually think about the impact this is having?

00:21:57.440 Or are you just thinking in a purely monetary, very, very functional business, oh, this clip did X, this clip did Y, this got X amount of followers, this got Y amount of engagement.

00:22:10.440 Is that how you think about it?

00:22:12.020 Or are you actually thinking to yourself, this is having a very real world impact?

00:22:16.840 If you've been following the immigration debate, you'll know how different the headlines can look depending on where you get your news.

00:22:25.500 We use Ground News to help us step outside the echo chamber.

00:22:29.780 It shows you how the same story is framed differently across the political spectrum.

00:22:34.660 So you can compare headlines and decide for yourself.

00:22:37.640 Take the story about a massive immigration raid at a Hyundai plant in Georgia, USA.

00:22:42.640 Follow along at ground.news slash trigonometry.

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00:22:54.440 However, scrolling down the page, Ground News allows me to easily compare the headlines.

00:22:59.980 We can see CNN, which is firmly on the left, highlighted that nearly 500 workers were taken, while Fox News, on the right, framed the raid as bold action.

00:23:11.000 Ground News shows us that broadly left-leaning outlets focused on immigrants and workers, center-leaning outlets simply reported the number detained, and right-leaning outlets emphasized illegal workers.

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00:23:29.000 Another feature we use heavily at Trigonometry is their blind spot feed, which shows you where coverage is lopsided.

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00:24:31.220 I hope more people do think about it that way.

00:24:35.020 Look, especially now, look, you can, social media, YouTube, etc., they're new mediums, they're new technologies.

00:24:43.640 They fell into the hands of a lot of people who were not prepared to deal with that level of influence and power.

00:24:47.860 And so, perhaps there's some understanding to be had for, you know, maybe people, like you say, genuinely didn't realize that what they say and hear has an impact out there.

00:24:59.320 Well, we know that now.

00:25:00.640 We know that now.

00:25:02.260 And those people need to really have a wake-up moment right here, right now.

00:25:07.300 But if we're going to talk about people monetizing this tragedy, I mean, what we've seen in the last few days on the right, I think I'm probably as horrified by that as I am by the celebrations of Charlie Kirk's assassination.

00:25:25.080 I mean, there are people who are literally going, oh, let me tell you how Israel killed them.

00:25:31.000 We know this guy who killed them from the text messages, from the messages on the ammunition, which were all anti-fascist, quote-unquote, all of this.

00:25:38.140 This was like a trans ally guy who was in a relationship with a trans person who thought Charlie Kirk was too hateful.

00:25:44.640 Clearly a leftist, a crazy leftist guy.

00:25:48.200 There's now people going, well, I've got text messages that insinuate that Charlie Kirk was under pressure to support Israel.

00:25:54.900 Tune into my live stream.

00:25:56.760 I'm just going, you have lost your humanity if you ever had it.

00:26:01.400 And that, again, just shows you just, and the one thing, the thing that I find that I struggle to understand is I go, how much of this is just sheer naked greed in all senses of the word?

00:26:15.640 And how much of this is ideological?

00:26:18.700 How much of this is Israel is behind everything bad that's happening in the world, whether it's Epstein or the assassination of Charlie Kirk?

00:26:26.440 And how much of this is just you going?

00:26:32.320 It's hard to know.

00:26:33.840 It's hard to know.

00:26:34.600 But I just think you said it before we started.

00:26:38.380 It's like, I think, the Douglas Murray quote.

00:26:40.900 Yeah.

00:26:41.220 A flare has gone up and now we know where everybody is.

00:26:44.400 And we saw the people, very few people, but influential people who, before we even knew anything, started to try and make it about Israel or other things.

00:26:57.720 And you're just going, you're not a serious person.

00:27:00.960 No.

00:27:01.060 And that's why I don't even want to name names.

00:27:04.800 I've written stuff about, you know, the woke riot and the candor zones and whatever.

00:27:09.200 I'm not even interested now.

00:27:10.500 It's time to give all these people the Alex Jones treatment, which is just, look, you've got your audience and you say whatever you want and that audience will be big.

00:27:17.480 But no one serious is going to take you seriously anymore because you're just discrediting yourself.

00:27:22.040 Yeah.

00:27:23.180 And I think when you see those people, you actually go, if you haven't understood who they actually are, if you thought, you know, they've said certain sensible things about BLM or, you know, the riots or whatever it may be.

00:27:38.200 No, the mask is well and truly slipped and you see the grotesque, the grotesque underneath.

00:27:46.000 And then you have to.

00:27:46.960 And now it is your job as an adult to make the decision.

00:27:50.620 Do you continue to follow?

00:27:51.880 Do you continue to engage?

00:27:53.140 Do you continue to amplify this person?

00:27:55.420 Or do you look and do you think to yourself, actually, no more?

00:28:00.360 And these people, they were Charlie's friends.

00:28:03.980 They were Charlie's friends.

00:28:06.000 I don't think they were.

00:28:06.900 Well, they claim they were.

00:28:09.220 He invited them to his events.

00:28:11.620 They spoke at his events.

00:28:13.340 And while his widow and children are grieving, they are profiteering from his death with conspiracy theories that are completely the opposite of the truth.

00:28:25.380 Because we know from what all the things that have been, all the evidence points to the fact that this was a trans-related ally, leftist, quote-unquote, anti-fascist, crazy guy.

00:28:36.500 But these people who claim to be his friends are literally profiting from his death.

00:28:41.960 I actually cannot imagine anything more disgusting.

00:28:46.480 Imagine somebody, imagine this, God forbid, happened to one of us, and our so-called friends were using this to get clicks on their YouTube channels while your family were grieving.

00:28:58.220 It's as disgusting as the left, the people on the left who celebrated his death.

00:29:06.140 It's just as disgusting.

00:29:07.900 And there's no other way to say it.

00:29:09.480 And I think they've all just, in my eyes, I will never, ever take any of them seriously in anything they say ever again because they've just shown who they are.

00:29:18.100 Absolutely. And what they've shown very clearly is that the most important thing for you is engagement, its views, and its money.

00:29:28.360 And if that's the most important thing for you, that's your incentive structure, then why are you going to be truthful?

00:29:35.300 Why are you going to behave with decency, honesty, and integrity if the most important thing for you is those things?

00:29:42.620 Because if that's the top of that, if that is the top, if that's the most important thing, then naturally all your behaviours are going to lead to that thing.

00:29:50.600 And it's weird because, you know, with my Russian background, I'm about as cynical as you can get.

00:29:55.580 But I was not cynical enough to imagine this kind of reaction.

00:29:59.440 I imagined people celebrate. I knew people would celebrate because people celebrated when Thatcher died.

00:30:04.400 And look, at some level I can relate.

00:30:06.380 I'm not saying this is how I will think, but, you know, for our generation in this country, Tony Blair was evil.

00:30:13.000 Like what he did in Iraq was evil, objectively.

00:30:15.380 And we all knew it at the time. We all opposed the war, etc.

00:30:18.280 Of course, of course.

00:30:20.740 I'm not saying I will celebrate when he dies because I will not.

00:30:24.480 But I can see how somebody might.

00:30:26.900 Yeah.

00:30:27.380 Right?

00:30:27.900 So at least I sort of, it's horrific and as we've talked about, completely unacceptable,

00:30:33.280 but I can sort of see how you might get there.

00:30:36.380 You might get there.

00:30:37.740 But with this, I was not cynical to imagine.

00:30:40.720 Like what I did imagine, and it is happening, you know, we had the U.S. Attorney General, Pam Bondi, for example,

00:30:46.540 start talking about, you know, well, there's free speech and there's hate speech and we're going to crack down on hate speech.

00:30:51.780 Right?

00:30:52.340 Now, this is, and this is the interesting thing because this is another example of why this is not a both sides issue.

00:30:58.520 Because the moment she said that, literally everybody on the right went, no.

00:31:02.140 And they started quoting Charlie Koch's own quotes, saying there's no such thing as hate speech in America.

00:31:09.120 The First Amendment, you know, doesn't curtail people's right to say things like that.

00:31:15.000 And they're right.

00:31:15.620 And the pushback was instant.

00:31:18.240 Because on the right, all of these ideas have been debated and people know where they stand on this.

00:31:23.780 On the left, there's a whole different narrative about it.

00:31:27.220 That's what I expected that.

00:31:28.560 And I expected what we're now seeing, which is, look, we should talk about this because this is a live conversation as well.

00:31:34.260 Well, as we sit here this morning, Jimmy Kimmel has just been put on leave, is it?

00:31:40.540 Yeah.

00:31:41.740 Taken off indefinitely.

00:31:43.240 Indefinitely.

00:31:43.820 Right?

00:31:44.180 Because he said the shooter was a MAGA guy.

00:31:47.260 Yeah.

00:31:48.000 In one of his monologues.

00:31:49.860 We'll talk about that.

00:31:51.000 And also, we've seen a lot of people be sacked from their jobs or fired from their jobs for celebrating Charlie's death and things like that.

00:32:00.160 And it's quite an interesting one to adjudicate from our perspective.

00:32:04.880 So what do you make of these two strands?

00:32:08.800 So with Jimmy, and I'm going to put my cards on the table, I'm always pro-comedian.

00:32:13.800 I'm always pro-comedian.

00:32:15.680 I will always stand up for comedians.

00:32:18.120 Because I believe that over the past few years, we swung so far over the other way, where people were getting cancelled,

00:32:25.620 that I actually, unless somebody does something particularly heinous, I will always be pro-comedy.

00:32:32.220 And I will always be comedian.

00:32:33.400 I think Jimmy obviously had information.

00:32:36.540 It was wrong.

00:32:37.720 He was given the wrong information.

00:32:39.260 Or he saw information that was wrong.

00:32:40.640 What happened?

00:32:41.280 He made a mistake.

00:32:42.880 Am I comfortable with what's happened?

00:32:46.020 No, I'm not.

00:32:47.080 If I'm being honest.

00:32:47.960 I'm not saying, I'm not going to give my opinion either way just yet.

00:32:53.100 But I think we, look, I'm a former comedian, you're a current comedian, and I totally get that instinct.

00:33:00.640 But I also don't think this comedian defense is getting overused.

00:33:05.700 There are quite a lot of people who say things that they actually mean, who are serious political commentators,

00:33:12.180 or at least taking as serious political commentators, who use the defense of being comedians the moment they're caught lying.

00:33:20.160 Yes.

00:33:20.660 Right?

00:33:21.460 Bassem Youssef, a former guest of ours, before there was any evidence came out at all,

00:33:26.440 he said on Twitter that Charlie Kirk was killed by Mossad, right?

00:33:30.200 Yeah.

00:33:30.340 And when he was challenged on this by Piers Morgan, he said, well, I just, you know, I'm a clown.

00:33:36.160 I'm a comedian.

00:33:37.180 I was joking.

00:33:38.060 Yes.

00:33:38.800 But he wasn't joking.

00:33:39.900 Yeah.

00:33:40.780 He wasn't joking.

00:33:41.800 Yeah.

00:33:42.280 And he's not a clown.

00:33:43.860 All you've seen him do for the last year is give his serious opinion about this.

00:33:47.140 Yes.

00:33:47.980 And when you blur that line, you don't have that excuse anymore.

00:33:50.900 Yeah.

00:33:51.740 And with Jimmy Kimmel, we can have a conversation about him being taken off air.

00:33:56.780 But I also think it's unfair to pretend that he is a comedian.

00:34:00.840 In the same way that I think it's unfair to pretend, and I don't think Bill would do this, that Bill Maher is a comedian.

00:34:06.900 Yeah.

00:34:07.080 Bill Maher hosts a political show that has elements of comedy.

00:34:13.140 Yes.

00:34:13.480 But I know people on the left who've said to me repeatedly, I just get all my news from The Daily Show.

00:34:20.820 I just get all my news from Jimmy Kimmel, right?

00:34:23.240 Because the point of those shows is to talk about politics and culture with a punchline at the end.

00:34:30.220 Mm-hmm.

00:34:30.800 But you also have a responsibility to communicate the truth.

00:34:34.480 Mm-hmm.

00:34:34.680 And you say he was given wrong information.

00:34:37.560 I am sorry, man.

00:34:38.520 Yeah.

00:34:38.700 This has been the biggest story on the news for the last week.

00:34:42.920 Yeah.

00:34:43.640 The police have released plenty of information about the motivations of the shooter.

00:34:48.000 They've released his text messages.

00:34:49.360 Yeah.

00:34:49.760 They've released the information that was on the ammunition.

00:34:53.520 How are you getting this wrong like that?

00:34:55.640 Okay.

00:34:56.200 So that's a fair point.

00:34:57.380 But I see certain things as being different.

00:34:59.680 I think what Bassem does is Bassem presents.

00:35:02.420 I think Bassem presents himself.

00:35:04.580 I don't think Bassem presents himself as a serious political commentator.

00:35:08.200 Right.

00:35:08.420 Which is fundamentally disingenuous that he then retreats to that position.

00:35:12.820 Yeah.

00:35:13.060 He also spread a conspiracy theory, knowingly.

00:35:17.600 And he admitted that in the clip.

00:35:19.160 Mm-hmm.

00:35:19.500 Which is reprehensible and utterly disgusting.

00:35:23.060 Mm-hmm.

00:35:23.200 It's anti-Semitic, vile.

00:35:25.400 Mm-hmm.

00:35:25.620 So there is no excuse.

00:35:26.660 And I do not defend Bassem.

00:35:28.220 And I utterly condemn him.

00:35:29.620 Mm-hmm.

00:35:30.260 With Bill Maher, that is a serious political show.

00:35:32.800 I agree with your point.

00:35:33.700 He's also got jokes, though, just like Jimmy Kimmel.

00:35:35.740 Yeah.

00:35:35.940 I see Jimmy Kimmel as being more kind of...

00:35:39.100 I haven't seen the Jimmy Kimmel show in a long time.

00:35:41.140 But I see it as being...

00:35:42.980 This is one of the reasons that also they're not that bothered about cancelling.

00:35:45.920 Yeah.

00:35:46.100 Because the ratings apparently are going through the floor.

00:35:47.660 Yeah.

00:35:47.680 Exactly.

00:35:48.080 I always saw Jimmy Kimmel as being much more of a kind of fluffy, light entertainment show

00:35:52.560 than a political show.

00:35:53.640 Come on, man.

00:35:54.900 Come on.

00:35:55.240 That's the way I saw it.

00:35:56.340 Fine.

00:35:56.920 Yeah.

00:35:57.060 But he is presenting information to the public about which he then does jokes.

00:36:01.980 Yeah.

00:36:02.860 When you insinuate...

00:36:04.700 Yeah.

00:36:05.080 ...that this person who killed Charlie Kirk was a MAGA guy...

00:36:09.380 Yeah.

00:36:10.120 ...you are spreading a conspiracy theory.

00:36:12.020 This is the thing, again, right?

00:36:13.920 There are a lot of batshit crazy conspiracy theories on the right, and they're loved and

00:36:19.280 appreciated by many people with large audiences on the right.

00:36:22.860 And I dislike that.

00:36:24.080 And I've always said that I dislike that.

00:36:25.920 And a lot of...

00:36:26.920 You know, all the...

00:36:28.080 Start with Peter Gale and work your way down, right?

00:36:30.840 But the left has got away for a very long time with spreading conspiracy theories of

00:36:36.760 the worst kind while claiming that the right is conspiratorial.

00:36:40.820 No, no, no.

00:36:41.400 If you go on TV a week after Charlie Kirk is killed by a left-wing radical and you say he

00:36:48.200 was a MAGA guy, imagine it was the other way around.

00:36:51.260 Imagine a major left-wing figure had just been politically assassinated by someone from

00:36:55.220 the right, and Greg Gutfeld went on his comedy show on Fox and said, well, this guy

00:37:02.460 was obviously a leftist.

00:37:04.360 What would happen?

00:37:05.740 Yeah.

00:37:06.000 There would be a firestorm of people calling for him to be sacked, to be cancelled, to be

00:37:11.060 fired, all of it for spreading misinformation.

00:37:14.580 Yeah.

00:37:14.860 Right?

00:37:15.040 So Jimmy Kimmel, I think, is exactly in that category.

00:37:18.640 Now, do I want to see him cancelled, permanently, never allowed to work again?

00:37:24.400 No.

00:37:25.040 But I also think if your job is to communicate information to the public, you have a responsibility

00:37:30.380 to be accurate about it.

00:37:31.720 And that is not an acceptable breach of that duty, in my opinion.

00:37:36.000 Yeah.

00:37:36.820 Look, I agree with that.

00:37:40.100 My instinct is always when it comes to comedy.

00:37:43.280 But it wasn't comedy, though.

00:37:45.180 It's not comedy.

00:37:46.680 It's satire.

00:37:47.720 It's not satire.

00:37:48.740 It's him expressing his opinion.

00:37:51.000 He basically told people that this guy was killed by a MAGA guy.

00:37:55.800 Yeah.

00:37:56.040 Charlie Kirk was killed by a MAGA guy.

00:37:57.700 That's not satire.

00:37:58.720 Satire's making a joke.

00:38:00.320 But it then led to a joke.

00:38:03.040 But look, I agree.

00:38:04.120 The fact that he said that...

00:38:05.620 If I say Francis Foster is a paedophile and then make a joke about how he's the best paedophile...

00:38:11.400 You realise everybody's going to fucking clip that.

00:38:14.400 Right?

00:38:14.820 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:15.340 Which bit is the joke?

00:38:16.780 Yeah.

00:38:17.160 And which bit is the serious thing?

00:38:18.640 Yeah.

00:38:19.340 Do you see what I mean?

00:38:20.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:38:20.340 I do see what you mean.

00:38:21.200 If I said Francis Foster is a paedophile but he couldn't even do that properly...

00:38:24.540 Yeah.

00:38:24.620 Right?

00:38:24.860 The joke is he couldn't even do that properly.

00:38:26.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:27.220 But the setup is the truth that I'm attempting to claim is the truth.

00:38:30.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:31.260 And that's what Jimmy did.

00:38:32.300 Yeah.

00:38:32.540 And when you have a huge audience to whom you're communicating about politics and culture,

00:38:37.260 I don't think you can get away with saying it's just a bit of comedy.

00:38:41.360 Yeah.

00:38:41.640 I don't think that's legitimate.

00:38:43.860 Yeah.

00:38:44.420 Look, I agree.

00:38:46.960 I just...

00:38:47.680 I think deep down my concerns are that when we...

00:38:54.060 Look, Batum, like I said, but with Jimmy, I just worry that it's going to degenerate

00:39:01.700 and just into political point scoring.

00:39:04.100 And it's like, oh, we're going to cancel this guy.

00:39:05.700 Now we're going to go after this guy and cancel him.

00:39:07.420 And I'm like, look, what you said was wrong.

00:39:09.960 It was stupid.

00:39:10.980 He should apologize.

00:39:13.320 And issue a correction.

00:39:14.720 And issue a correction.

00:39:16.060 But do I want to be in a place where we start going tip for tack cancellations?

00:39:20.060 I don't want to be...

00:39:20.980 I don't want to live in that world.

00:39:21.960 That I agree with.

00:39:22.680 And what I'd also say is from what I'm hearing, the FCC were involved in putting pressure on

00:39:26.980 his employers, which that to me is troubling, right?

00:39:29.760 Because you don't want the government's...

00:39:31.480 An arm of the government influencing what broadcasters are allowed to broadcast.

00:39:35.200 So I don't think I'm comfortable with that aspect of it.

00:39:40.820 But at the same time, I think it's a grotesque negligence on his part.

00:39:46.060 And if his own network felt that he'd made a mistake that deserved some kind of reprimand,

00:39:52.120 I wouldn't have a problem with it.

00:39:53.700 Yeah.

00:39:53.880 You know, and also in terms of...

00:39:57.840 Set Jimmy aside, because I think we've kind of said what we think about it.

00:40:00.780 There's been a lot of this, you know, here's this person who said this in celebration.

00:40:05.420 Let's get him fired from this job, that job, and whatever.

00:40:08.560 And again, that's quite a complicated one, because I think we have to be honest that there's

00:40:13.100 a difference, right?

00:40:14.300 If someone is flipping burgers in a McDonald's, I don't see how whatever, however their views

00:40:21.960 are, however evil their views are, I don't think they should be cancelled and be fired

00:40:26.280 from their job for doing that.

00:40:28.120 But at the same time, if you are in a position where you're dealing with the public, or you're

00:40:34.460 dealing with children, you're an educator, I don't think we can pretend that that has

00:40:41.360 no impact.

00:40:42.500 I don't think if you're teaching children...

00:40:44.500 I mean, there was a guy in Canada, his story was in the New York Post, who showed his

00:40:48.960 10 and 11-year-olds in class the video of their assassination, repeatedly, and then

00:40:56.120 explained to them why it was justified, allegedly.

00:40:58.880 So, if you're doing that, I'm sorry, you getting fired is not f***ing cancel culture, out the

00:41:04.640 f***ing door you go.

00:41:05.580 Yeah.

00:41:06.340 And look, extend it beyond that.

00:41:09.080 Say you are working in a hospital as a doctor or a nurse, in some way you're dealing with

00:41:14.500 patients.

00:41:14.920 We've seen that, you know, with people supporting Hamas and the slaughter of October 7th.

00:41:20.820 Right.

00:41:21.240 So, if you're in that position, and I am a religious conservative, I'm not a religious

00:41:25.640 conservative, but I am an American religious conservative, I'm going into hospital, do you

00:41:30.280 think I would feel comfortable being treated for my medical condition by somebody who thinks

00:41:36.720 it's okay to murder people like me?

00:41:39.080 Right?

00:41:39.180 So, again, if you are in that sort of position, I don't know that you could argue that people

00:41:43.940 who celebrate violence against people like the people they serve can remain in that position

00:41:50.480 credibly.

00:41:52.740 But I also think, you know, there are oppositions when that isn't the case where it's probably

00:41:56.300 a different thing.

00:41:58.320 Yeah.

00:41:58.740 And this is, again, this is the issue where we actually have to look at it.

00:42:03.440 And we have to be nuanced about this.

00:42:05.760 And we actually have to have a discussion, a conversation, and go, what is acceptable,

00:42:10.460 what is not acceptable?

00:42:11.900 When can you say it?

00:42:12.880 When can't you say it?

00:42:14.280 Because a corporation would go, everybody who works for McDonald's is a representative

00:42:20.060 of McDonald's.

00:42:21.300 They are an ambassador of McDonald's, whether you are in the world.

00:42:24.620 Are you flipping burgers?

00:42:26.520 Yeah.

00:42:27.400 Are you?

00:42:29.040 You could, because, you know.

00:42:31.240 Look, we have an office here.

00:42:32.880 If the cleaner who cleans our office once a week went out and, I don't know what his

00:42:37.860 opinions are.

00:42:38.740 They're pretty bad, mate.

00:42:39.520 I've spoken to him.

00:42:40.960 You know what I'm saying?

00:42:41.940 Yeah, yeah, of course.

00:42:42.480 Are they representing the values of trigonometry?

00:42:46.360 Are they?

00:42:46.800 No.

00:42:47.520 They're not.

00:42:48.320 But that's...

00:42:48.880 Objectively not.

00:42:49.480 I don't even know his name.

00:42:50.460 Yeah.

00:42:52.000 But yeah.

00:42:52.520 But that's, that is what could be argued.

00:42:56.480 Yeah, but that's just not true, though.

00:42:58.620 Yeah.

00:42:58.780 A cleaner does not represent the values of the company.

00:43:02.300 Okay, and an accountant?

00:43:03.560 They don't know.

00:43:04.560 How do they represent?

00:43:05.380 I don't know my accountant's values.

00:43:06.960 I think his values are money, personally.

00:43:09.280 But if you're KPMG and one of your senior accountants, for instance, starts tweeting...

00:43:14.000 Senior accounts is a different thing.

00:43:15.880 Okay.

00:43:16.280 Or just a regular accountant.

00:43:18.420 And they celebrate October 7th.

00:43:21.440 Would KPMG not be entitled to fire that person?

00:43:24.740 I think they...

00:43:26.940 Look, personally, what I'm trying to say is, I think there's a line somewhere.

00:43:31.920 And that line for me is about, are you dealing with people that may feel that you actually want them dead based on your commentary, right?

00:43:42.360 That's what I'm talking about.

00:43:44.600 So, if I'm going into a hospital and someone is there celebrating the murder of people like me, that I don't think is a tenable position.

00:43:54.000 I think what we're saying is that it's when it prejudices your work.

00:43:57.760 Right.

00:43:58.120 When it affects the way you do your job, or at least other people will credibly think that it does.

00:44:03.060 So, if you're a cleaner in a hospital, have any f***ing opinion you want, evil as it might be.

00:44:07.600 Yeah.

00:44:08.140 But when, for instance, that you're dealing...

00:44:10.500 For instance, if I was KPMG and someone tweeted about, I don't know, Hamas, and said, I'm pro-Hamas, I'm like, well, can I really trust you to handle this Jewish customer's accounts?

00:44:22.700 Can I really trust you?

00:44:25.160 If you celebrate the slaughter of Jews and Israelis, and you think that's a good thing, can I trust you to handle Mr. Lowenstein's accounts?

00:44:34.200 I personally don't think I can.

00:44:36.460 And that's not an unfair position to be in.

00:44:38.520 Right.

00:44:38.920 So, your point is, it affects your work in a material way.

00:44:42.760 Or other people will feel that it does.

00:44:44.860 Yeah.

00:44:45.640 So, it's slightly more complicated than people are trying to make it out to be.

00:44:49.580 Because a lot of people on the right are like, oh, these people deserve to be cancelled.

00:44:52.500 And people on the left are like, oh, look at the right practice and cancel culture.

00:44:56.060 I think it's, as we've discussed, somewhat more nuanced.

00:44:59.320 Yeah.

00:45:00.020 And complicated.

00:45:01.300 But these things always are.

00:45:02.800 Yeah.

00:45:03.140 But when you go on social media, it's much easier to go, these people are wrong, these people are...

00:45:07.600 You know what I mean?

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00:45:25.960 The podcast covers viral madness from across the political and cultural spectrum.

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00:46:30.200 Well, the other thing that has happened since we last spoke is the United Kingdom protest.

00:46:47.200 The video that we did on our channel has done very well.

00:46:49.940 I think it's approaching 700,000 views at this point.

00:46:52.160 And you and I both went along.

00:46:55.720 That is another thing that, you know, there's been a lot of rhetoric about.

00:46:59.960 And look, left-wing politicians, starting from Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London, down,

00:47:04.320 have had absolutely no problem talking about this as a far-right gathering.

00:47:09.020 And again, there's some nuance to that, which I'm sure we can talk about.

00:47:13.040 Obviously, some of my impressions, not all of my impressions, there's quite a lot to add to what people saw in the video,

00:47:18.720 but there in the video, what were your impressions of it?

00:47:21.080 So my impressions were this.

00:47:23.020 Overall, the vast...

00:47:24.160 I find it very interesting because I've never been to a political rally.

00:47:28.160 To me, and you're going to say this, but to me, political rallies are largely middle-class things.

00:47:34.280 They're largely middle-class things because middle-class people have the time and the energy to be on social media,

00:47:40.260 get worked up, get angry, the free time to then go down to Parliament Square and protest,

00:47:44.720 wave their little flag, do whatever they want, right?

00:47:46.920 It's a middle-class activity.

00:47:48.700 Revolutions were always started and led by the middle-class, right?

00:47:53.260 The thing that I found very interesting is that when I went to this particular demonstration,

00:47:59.320 it was very working class.

00:48:01.340 It was people that I would know from South London growing up and being, you know,

00:48:06.120 go down the pub or go watch the football.

00:48:09.040 I remember watching certain...

00:48:10.440 There was a lot of chanting.

00:48:11.400 It was a really almost odd mixture of politics and football mixed together.

00:48:18.720 Starmer as a wanker being a prominent feature.

00:48:21.100 Yeah, which people have chanted at the football week after week.

00:48:24.280 So that's a football chant, and there was a very football element to it.

00:48:45.420 So I found that very interesting.

00:48:47.080 The vast majority of people that I spoke to that I went out and I was chatting with,

00:48:50.460 ordinary, decent people, I would argue that the reason they were there is they felt that

00:48:59.180 something is wrong in their country, and they felt for a long time they have been told to

00:49:04.500 be ashamed of their history, their background, their race, their country, and to them it was

00:49:10.940 a demonstration of pride and a celebration of the country.

00:49:15.160 There was a fringe element that I saw, which were drunken, aggressive, occasionally violent,

00:49:23.780 and I saw it happen.

00:49:25.220 I think it was 25 or 26 police officers were hurt.

00:49:28.580 Yeah.

00:49:29.020 So just to clarify, what we know now is 25 arrests were made.

00:49:33.200 Yeah.

00:49:33.700 The majority of those arrests were made among the counter-protesters.

00:49:38.260 Yeah.

00:49:38.440 But there was some violence, which people can see in the video that I did, between the

00:49:43.540 police and the pro-Tommy protesters.

00:49:47.220 This was on a side street where people couldn't get to the main protest, and I think they were

00:49:53.060 frustrated and angry about that.

00:49:54.640 But they were violent towards the police, which of course is never acceptable.

00:49:57.240 Yeah.

00:49:57.580 But for a protest of several hundred thousand people, the level of violence was actually

00:50:03.080 surprisingly low for me.

00:50:05.020 Because the one thing, and people can see, you know, someone actually said, you know,

00:50:09.120 you keep talking about, you worry about this being violent.

00:50:11.520 Yeah.

00:50:11.760 It's because we saw a lot of people who had clearly, you know, we got there for what,

00:50:16.540 10, 10, 45, 11?

00:50:18.520 By that time, there were people who'd clearly had about five pints in them at least.

00:50:22.580 There were a lot of people who had been drinking.

00:50:24.820 Yeah.

00:50:24.980 And that's always a worry when people are rowdy.

00:50:27.760 Of course.

00:50:28.460 And the government didn't, I don't know whether it was government, the train companies, there

00:50:32.160 were very few trains going into London on that day.

00:50:34.700 So what happened is that people would get the coaches down from places like Middlesbrough

00:50:39.820 or Sunderland, Northeast, Northwest, and they would get the coaches, some of them as early

00:50:44.540 as four or five o'clock in the morning to come down.

00:50:46.460 And I was speaking to some people who were on the coaches who said that it was reminiscent

00:50:52.440 of going on an away day to a football match.

00:50:55.580 And let's be honest about this.

00:50:58.580 White working class culture, especially football culture, revolves around booze.

00:51:03.160 You go out, you have a few beers, you get pissed up, you're out with your mates, you have

00:51:07.820 a sing song, you do whatever else.

00:51:09.840 That is how it is.

00:51:10.960 By the way, why did you say why?

00:51:12.180 Because I don't think it's why.

00:51:13.100 I mean, there was quite a lot of non-white people there.

00:51:15.100 I know there's a lot of non-white people at the football who are also drinking.

00:51:17.660 I agree, but I'm talking about people that I grew up with.

00:51:21.620 I'm talking about my dad.

00:51:23.500 So my dad's not a football fan, he's a real man, he likes rugby league.

00:51:27.740 But when we go out with my family, they start drinking at 12 o'clock.

00:51:31.620 All I'm saying is I think football culture is not a race thing.

00:51:33.740 No, it's not.

00:51:34.420 But I'm talking about working class culture, white working class culture, which is...

00:51:39.500 Why is it white?

00:51:40.680 Sorry if I'm being pedantic.

00:51:42.260 Wouldn't black people also go out and have a few pints?

00:51:45.100 In my experience, when we go out...

00:51:49.400 You're saying you don't have any black friends.

00:51:50.440 No, I don't have any black friends.

00:51:51.620 But I'm talking about going for pints.

00:51:54.280 It's a very kind of...

00:51:55.480 Which is where I come from.

00:51:56.920 That is the culture.

00:51:58.540 It revolves around pints and booze and whatever else.

00:52:01.660 Yeah, yeah.

00:52:02.420 And I don't see it as much in other cultures as I do with my own culture.

00:52:07.960 Fair enough.

00:52:08.340 Fair enough.

00:52:09.040 And again, there's no judgment on that part.

00:52:12.580 It's just how it is.

00:52:13.800 It's how we're brought up.

00:52:14.760 It's how we always have it.

00:52:15.480 So there was a lot of drinking from an early...

00:52:17.240 There was a lot of drinking from an early...

00:52:18.740 And most people were friendly, rambunctious.

00:52:21.680 They were just there to have a laugh.

00:52:23.020 There was banter.

00:52:23.880 There was like...

00:52:24.400 And we saw it.

00:52:25.120 People were very friendly.

00:52:26.180 They approached to us.

00:52:27.320 And there was a small minority who were...

00:52:30.600 You know, there was a very small minority who were there.

00:52:34.200 And it seemed like it was...

00:52:36.020 There was an edge to them.

00:52:37.040 Yeah, there was an edge to them.

00:52:38.160 But also among those people.

00:52:39.500 So in our video, you can see there are people who've climbed up onto the scaffolding overlooking

00:52:44.060 the main stage.

00:52:44.940 Yeah.

00:52:45.140 And they were boozy.

00:52:46.620 They added a bunch of cans up there, smoking, whatever.

00:52:49.520 And then when they saw me, they started shouting and waving constantly, you know.

00:52:53.880 So just because they were rowdy...

00:52:57.140 Like, I'm a first-generation immigrant.

00:52:59.680 Yeah.

00:53:00.580 Like, if they were, like, evil far-right racists...

00:53:03.580 Yeah.

00:53:04.300 I don't think they'd be celebrating my being there or wanting to get my attention or whatever.

00:53:09.080 Yeah.

00:53:09.520 And that was actually walking through the crowd.

00:53:13.880 You saw it.

00:53:14.800 It was quite difficult for us to make forward progress because just of the pure number of

00:53:18.540 people who wanted to say hello, take a selfie, shake our hands, etc.

00:53:22.840 Yeah.

00:53:23.140 Now, I don't think we are seen, particularly on the fringes of the right, as particularly friendly

00:53:28.420 to them.

00:53:28.880 No.

00:53:29.240 Because we're not, right?

00:53:30.120 So I think that tells you what the general tenor of the event was.

00:53:34.060 Yeah.

00:53:34.220 We also saw Avi Yemeni, who's a friend of Tommy's, who's a Jewish-Australian YouTuber.

00:53:39.720 He had a confrontation with a couple of people who were actually there who were real Nazis.

00:53:44.300 But they were there because Tommy Robinson is pro-Israel and they wanted to express their

00:53:49.280 disagreement with that.

00:53:50.300 And we did see a handful of those people.

00:53:52.640 Yeah.

00:53:52.820 But I don't think they were there to support the protests.

00:53:55.020 I think they were there to infiltrate it and subvert it if they could.

00:53:57.640 So that definitely happened as well.

00:54:00.160 Obviously, there's been a lot of talk about whether it was far-right or not.

00:54:04.000 Now, it's sort of, I mean, I think, first of all, you have to always have your definitions

00:54:07.200 right in these situations.

00:54:08.300 For me, far-right is openly racist, neo-Nazi-associated party like the British National Party, which

00:54:16.740 we had, right, some time ago, the BNP under people like Nick Griffin, right?

00:54:22.100 That's what I would mean by the far-right.

00:54:23.880 Would you accept that definition or do you have a different one?

00:54:26.560 No, I accept that definition pretty much.

00:54:28.660 So by that definition, I really didn't see anything that fit that definition in the crowd.

00:54:34.760 Yeah.

00:54:35.720 Other than those people who were there to subvert it.

00:54:37.680 But nor on stage either.

00:54:40.980 What you did see on stage, I would argue, is a number of people who are certainly far

00:54:46.620 more fringe and extreme than the overwhelming majority of the audience.

00:54:51.840 That is something that I think is undeniable, actually.

00:54:56.080 And that is something that, and look, I wouldn't put Tommy in that category because I don't think

00:55:01.760 his views, I think, as we discussed when we had him on the show, I think he gets a lot

00:55:06.100 of flack because of some of the ways that he's behaved.

00:55:08.440 But in terms of his views, I haven't heard him say anything that makes me think he's

00:55:12.780 very fringe.

00:55:13.720 But some of the other people there, particularly from Europe, absolutely were fringe.

00:55:18.660 And so I almost think the people on stage were, on balance, more extreme than the people

00:55:24.740 in the crowd.

00:55:25.320 Oh, I completely agree.

00:55:28.040 I mean, one particular speaker, Valentina Gomez, some of her language was unacceptable.

00:55:33.580 I couldn't, because I was backstage, I couldn't really hear anything that was said.

00:55:36.720 What did she say?

00:55:37.600 So she said the Muslims are going to, if they get into power, they're going to rape your

00:55:43.560 daughters and they're going to behead your sons.

00:55:45.240 She says, we need to send them, send them back to, send these Muslims and these rugs back

00:55:52.800 to their Sharia nations.

00:55:54.680 That's extreme language.

00:55:55.820 I don't think that's acceptable.

00:55:57.020 I don't think.

00:55:58.040 And I think whoever booked her or whoever endorsed her needs to actually think to them, need

00:56:03.360 to actually take a long, hard look at themselves.

00:56:05.680 Because you're in a position of responsibility when you put on a rally like this.

00:56:10.360 It's as simple as that.

00:56:11.520 And to me, and I'm going to be honest, I'm probably going to get flack for this.

00:56:14.600 I don't care.

00:56:15.400 You can't have that.

00:56:16.440 You simply cannot have a woman like that on stage saying those things.

00:56:21.160 It is dangerous and it's inflammatory.

00:56:23.400 And there's also been a lot of talk about what Elon said.

00:56:25.600 Again, I couldn't hear it because I was backstage.

00:56:28.360 There's some ambiguity in the way that he phrased it.

00:56:31.000 I don't think the way he phrased it was particularly helpful.

00:56:33.040 If by, you know, fight, he meant like, you know, organized rally, political movement,

00:56:37.880 et cetera.

00:56:38.600 He said violence is coming to you.

00:56:40.600 Well, I don't think, I mean, objectively, that is what's happened in the last week.

00:56:44.460 So I don't think he's wrong about that.

00:56:45.560 But what I think the issue was, he then said, you've got to fight or you die or whatever.

00:56:50.980 Yeah.

00:56:52.260 And I think, again, it depends on what exactly he meant.

00:56:55.720 If he meant fight as an organized rally, you know, organized political movements, that's

00:56:59.940 totally legitimate.

00:57:00.800 If he's encouraging people to become violent, that's totally unacceptable.

00:57:04.200 And, you know, he'd obviously have to clarify what he meant.

00:57:07.240 We can blame Tommy for booking the wrong people and whatever.

00:57:10.920 And I think there's legitimate conversations to be had about that.

00:57:13.540 But the reason I bring up the fact that people in the crowd were far more moderate than the

00:57:19.340 speakers on stage is, to me, what that signals is a failure of leadership from the mainstream

00:57:25.220 politicians.

00:57:25.780 That because you've got moderate, reasonable, normal people who are being spoken to by people

00:57:33.740 who are far more extreme than them.

00:57:35.140 And that's because the people who should be speaking to these normal, moderate, reasonable

00:57:39.480 people are not speaking to them, are not addressing their concern, are smearing them all as far right

00:57:44.880 and completely ignoring what they're saying.

00:57:46.640 And that sense of frustration, that sense of the elites are not listening to us, is what's

00:57:53.780 driving those protests.

00:57:55.560 That's just the reality of what it is.

00:57:58.140 And my worry is, if the mainstream do not address the concerns of ordinary people, those ordinary

00:58:03.760 people will be pushed in these unhealthy, extreme directions.

00:58:07.460 And that is the real issue going on here.

00:58:11.360 And I would say this is the fault predominantly of the Labour Party.

00:58:15.560 Those people in there, the people I spoke to, were people, the vast majority were the people

00:58:22.220 the Labour Party should be representing.

00:58:24.360 The reason that those people felt compelled to go out, whether they could articulate it

00:58:28.920 or not, some of them could, some of them couldn't.

00:58:30.820 But I think deep down, if you scratch the surface, is because they feel betrayed.

00:58:34.660 And you know what?

00:58:35.420 They have every right to feel betrayed.

00:58:37.580 They have every right to feel betrayed by the elites, the political parties, the way the

00:58:41.660 grooming gangs was covered up, the way that anyone who talked about them was smeared

00:58:45.300 as racist, the way that any concerns, and let's talk about any concerns white working

00:58:52.120 class people have, was immediately shunted to one side.

00:58:56.780 And if they talked about diversity, if they talked about concepts like white privilege,

00:59:02.180 anything like that, they were immediately shunned.

00:59:05.140 They were told they were stupid, far-right racist.

00:59:07.700 You can only do that trick so many times before what you get is a backlash.

00:59:12.000 And people, and this is what the elites never understand.

00:59:15.760 I could, like, my dad's from Wigan.

00:59:17.920 That is, when Orwell wanted to write about deprivation, misery in this country, he went

00:59:24.060 to Wigan.

00:59:24.860 He went to Wigan.

00:59:25.800 That's where he went.

00:59:26.800 When my dad grew up, he said I had two choices.

00:59:29.340 If I didn't go to university, I'd work down the pit or I'd work in St. Helens Glass,

00:59:33.900 the glass factory.

00:59:34.980 And both were pretty tough, miserable existences.

00:59:37.560 And I'm guessing, by the way, neither of those two exist anymore.

00:59:39.860 No, neither of them exist.

00:59:40.900 So not only would you work there, you'd probably lose your job pretty soon too.

00:59:43.840 Yeah, you'd probably lose your job.

00:59:45.720 So you're angry and you're frustrated, right?

00:59:48.080 And the people that I knew in Wigan, they were honest, solid, good people who just wanted

00:59:54.740 to go to work, provide for their families, come home, raise a family.

00:59:59.240 That's all they wanted.

01:00:00.220 They weren't far-right, they weren't racist, as a vast majority of this country are.

01:00:04.360 They were tolerant, good people, not extremists.

01:00:08.720 But you have pushed people to this point where they feel that they have no other option

01:00:13.760 but to attend a Tommy Robinson rally.

01:00:17.000 And whatever you think about, Tommy, I think we can all agree that is a very worrying place

01:00:21.940 to be.

01:00:22.620 And the Zara Sultanas of this world and the Diane Abbott and our beloved mayor, Sadiq Khan,

01:00:29.760 that's sarcasm for the Americans, can't actually understand that smearing them as far-right,

01:00:36.260 smearing them as racist, do not understand where this is leading.

01:00:40.560 Because this is leading somewhere that is very dark and it's very dangerous.

01:00:45.700 And you haven't learned the lessons.

01:00:47.700 And a week after Charlie Cook, you're continuing to use the same rhetoric, the same language,

01:00:53.000 the same words.

01:00:53.900 Because it's despicable.

01:00:55.500 And I'm angry.

01:00:56.660 And I'm angry because it's dangerous.

01:00:59.080 And they haven't learned.

01:01:00.800 They haven't learned.

01:01:02.220 And that is what I got from it.

01:01:04.460 That is really what I got from it.

01:01:06.260 And I'm worried about my country.

01:01:08.480 Genuinely.

01:01:09.220 Because this is a powder keg.

01:01:11.100 And one other thing we ought to add as well is,

01:01:14.700 Britain is an extremely anti-extremist place.

01:01:18.180 You really have to work very, very hard to get hundreds of thousands of people

01:01:23.280 on the street protesting about something like this, in this way.

01:01:27.840 It's very, very hard.

01:01:28.780 You're right.

01:01:29.560 You know, you can get your middle-class vegans to get a Palestine flag

01:01:33.400 and go for a nice walk and a little sing-along.

01:01:35.840 But to get working-class people out in the streets,

01:01:39.100 in the hundreds of thousands like this,

01:01:41.380 you've got to really, really go for it.

01:01:44.300 And in addition to all the cultural issues you've talked about,

01:01:48.660 and let's be honest, I mean, our interview with Alistair Heath

01:01:50.980 is one of the best we've done.

01:01:52.800 And one of the things people need to understand is,

01:01:54.940 part of the reason all of this is happening

01:01:56.600 is that our GDP per capita,

01:01:59.820 which is a measure of how wealthy we actually are,

01:02:02.280 is lower today than it was in 2008.

01:02:05.460 Our taxes are higher,

01:02:06.740 which means people have less money than they did back then.

01:02:09.440 And this is something that I heard.

01:02:12.820 This was said in 2014, so it's probably much worse now.

01:02:15.320 But the reason Europe is struggling as it is,

01:02:17.920 and the reason all these movements are happening everywhere in Europe is,

01:02:20.420 Europe has 12% of the global population,

01:02:24.060 25% of the GDP,

01:02:26.180 and 50% of the welfare spending.

01:02:30.100 And the economy is not growing.

01:02:34.280 We're far away economically.

01:02:35.440 And until we let go of our obsessions with net zero,

01:02:40.100 with having millions of people on unemployment

01:02:43.100 registered simply because they're a little bit anxious

01:02:45.840 or a little bit depressed or whatever,

01:02:48.220 this will carry on because people are poorer.

01:02:51.380 People are frustrated with mass immigration,

01:02:54.060 especially illegal immigration,

01:02:55.400 which, you know, like one guy said,

01:02:57.800 and I'm into a very reasonable guy.

01:02:59.020 He said, I'm a single father.

01:03:00.800 I work hard.

01:03:01.980 And I see people being put up in hotels.

01:03:04.680 Like, you know, you can't have that.

01:03:07.720 You could paper over these cracks

01:03:09.660 if the economy was growing rapidly

01:03:11.140 and everyone felt life was great.

01:03:13.700 And then the guy, who cares about,

01:03:15.380 you know, I've got more money, I'm doing right.

01:03:17.860 That's not where we are.

01:03:19.160 And so the government need to,

01:03:22.220 I mean, this government is not going to do it,

01:03:23.620 but whoever is the next government

01:03:24.920 have to get the economy growing

01:03:26.720 as well as addressing all these cultural issues

01:03:29.740 because otherwise the extremes

01:03:32.900 are inevitably going to rise.

01:03:34.660 I just don't think there's any other way around it.

01:03:36.440 No.

01:03:37.180 You know what I find very interesting?

01:03:38.600 I don't think people are talking about enough.

01:03:41.200 Every government, right, left or centre,

01:03:42.880 runs out of steam.

01:03:43.780 It runs out of steam.

01:03:44.980 It runs out of ideas.

01:03:46.200 It runs out of momentum, figure,

01:03:48.040 whatever you want to call it.

01:03:50.100 This thought of run out of steam after,

01:03:52.560 it's barely been a year.

01:03:54.340 Yeah, but I'm not surprised

01:03:55.260 because this was all,

01:03:56.340 I predicted this, if you remember,

01:03:57.780 the last election, I said they're going to realise

01:03:59.940 that the problem wasn't the evil Tories hated the poor.

01:04:02.460 The problem is the country's got

01:04:03.640 giant structural problems

01:04:04.780 that you can't fix without drastic action,

01:04:07.660 which they won't be able to take.

01:04:08.960 Yeah.

01:04:09.200 So they've run out of steam in a year,

01:04:12.160 as expected.

01:04:13.140 Yeah.

01:04:13.620 And, I mean, I guess the question is,

01:04:15.360 do you think we're going to,

01:04:16.500 do you think the next election

01:04:17.640 will happen earlier than planned?

01:04:20.080 It's hard to see it.

01:04:21.980 I can't think another three years

01:04:24.000 of this is going to last.

01:04:24.940 Something needs to happen.

01:04:28.200 There needs to be some,

01:04:29.060 I don't know.

01:04:29.960 I don't know.

01:04:30.640 I really think...

01:04:31.360 That's a very worrying phrase usually, mate.

01:04:33.760 Yeah, because,

01:04:34.860 but,

01:04:35.400 it is,

01:04:36.460 but we're in a very worrying situation.

01:04:38.900 Look, from a political perspective,

01:04:41.140 I mean, look,

01:04:41.800 as we talked about with Alistair Heath,

01:04:43.240 a fiscal crisis is coming.

01:04:45.920 And if you were Labour,

01:04:47.240 it's almost like you go,

01:04:48.800 you know what,

01:04:49.260 why don't we just have an election,

01:04:50.660 lose,

01:04:50.980 and let someone else

01:04:52.080 eat that financial crisis?

01:04:53.920 Because it is coming.

01:04:55.880 And if Labour are seen

01:04:57.020 to be the ones that oversaw it,

01:04:59.460 you know,

01:04:59.660 they're going to be dead.

01:05:01.200 Whereas if they,

01:05:01.880 if they hand over to reform

01:05:03.160 and reform face that fiscal crisis,

01:05:05.700 they're going to get

01:05:06.640 the list trust treatment.

01:05:07.940 You know,

01:05:08.300 because a lot of list trust's policies

01:05:09.600 were entirely correct.

01:05:11.460 I mean,

01:05:12.020 you know,

01:05:12.700 people talk about how she

01:05:13.720 spooked the bond markets,

01:05:15.480 and,

01:05:15.720 you know,

01:05:15.880 to some extent she did.

01:05:17.000 But yields are higher now

01:05:18.380 than they were under list trust.

01:05:19.420 So,

01:05:22.380 my point is,

01:05:23.800 a lot of the political blame

01:05:24.840 will go to whoever is in charge

01:05:26.360 when the inevitable happens.

01:05:27.920 From Labour's perspective,

01:05:29.500 maybe you just call an election now

01:05:31.460 and let someone else eat it.

01:05:33.100 After a year?

01:05:34.200 Barely a year?

01:05:35.500 They probably won't do it

01:05:36.580 because they're not that smart,

01:05:37.660 but that would be the smart play.

01:05:39.540 Yeah.

01:05:40.300 How do you frame it?

01:05:41.640 Like,

01:05:41.840 we've had a year,

01:05:42.500 we've shat the bed,

01:05:44.380 let's have an election?

01:05:46.160 I think we're going to have

01:05:47.280 another election either way.

01:05:48.720 Yeah.

01:05:49.780 So,

01:05:50.200 with the land inevitable.

01:05:51.620 Yeah.

01:05:52.140 And look,

01:05:52.680 if you get the fiscal crisis

01:05:53.880 while Labour's still in charge,

01:05:55.540 that would be very good for reform.

01:05:57.680 If you get the fiscal crisis after,

01:06:00.400 then that would be very bad

01:06:01.620 for whoever's in charge

01:06:02.300 because people will just blame

01:06:03.400 whoever's in charge.

01:06:04.440 Of course.

01:06:05.280 You know.

01:06:06.100 Anyway,

01:06:06.900 it's been a really,

01:06:08.440 really difficult week

01:06:09.640 for a lot of people.

01:06:11.000 I'm glad we gave it some time

01:06:12.220 because we were able

01:06:12.840 to have a conversation

01:06:13.680 with a bit of perspective.

01:06:14.560 And I'm sure we'll see

01:06:16.180 everybody very soon again.

01:06:18.260 For another uplifting episode.

01:06:21.340 Let's start at the beginning.

01:06:22.560 What is England?

01:06:23.960 England emerges

01:06:24.840 in the aftermath

01:06:26.060 of the Roman province

01:06:27.960 of Britannia.

01:06:29.520 By 950,

01:06:31.160 England is recognisable today.

01:06:33.600 And that's when we get

01:06:34.220 the greatest hero

01:06:34.960 of English medieval history.

01:06:36.420 It's called William the Marshal.

01:06:37.900 And then we see

01:06:38.340 the House of Lords

01:06:39.020 and the House of Commons

01:06:39.680 developing.

01:06:40.600 Extraordinary thing

01:06:40.980 about the Plantagenet family.

01:06:42.480 You get a very uneven

01:06:43.280 performance by its kings.

01:06:44.560 Richard the Lionheart.

01:06:46.020 John Softsword.

01:06:47.600 You know,

01:06:47.940 Edward I.

01:06:49.260 Edward II.

01:06:51.120 Absolute useless Muppet.

01:06:53.120 We get Wars of the Roses.

01:06:54.080 You get a civil war in England.

01:06:55.760 Families fighting families.

01:06:57.760 The printing press

01:06:58.520 has been discovered.

01:07:00.400 The rest of the world

01:07:01.760 has been discovered.

01:07:02.680 From the Tudors onwards,

01:07:03.760 then we're starting to feel

01:07:04.620 this kind of acceleration.

01:07:06.420 In the 17th century,

01:07:07.080 we've got civil war.

01:07:07.820 No one would have said,

01:07:09.080 Britain, that one,

01:07:09.720 those guys there,

01:07:10.500 they're about to run the world.

01:07:11.940 And then we get

01:07:12.520 the monumental global

01:07:13.900 clashes of the 20th century.

01:07:15.380 them.

01:07:15.700 So...

01:07:16.520 And then we get

01:07:17.080 over-

01:07:17.480 to patients

01:07:19.340 next in

01:07:19.940 limp experience.

01:07:20.960 Have a隣

01:07:22.700 people

01:07:23.020 waiting for him.

01:07:23.520 This week is

01:07:24.560 wrong.

01:07:24.780 Have fun!

01:07:25.080 Have a great week.

01:07:25.820 Happy Rule.

01:07:26.580 Have a great day.

01:07:27.840 Bye.

01:07:28.160 Have a great day.

01:07:28.380 Happy surgery.

01:07:28.840 Hope

01:07:30.220 We'll see you next time.

01:07:31.220 Good boy.

01:07:32.540 Have a great day.

01:07:34.040 WatBray.

01:07:34.760 Have a great day.

01:07:35.180 Have a great day.

01:07:36.220 Have a great day.

01:07:36.420 Have a great day.

01:07:37.180 Have a great day.

01:07:38.140 Good day.

01:07:38.500 ."

01:07:39.000 Have a great day.

01:07:40.660 Have a great day.

01:07:41.680 Have a great day onmpremark.

TRIGGERnometry - September 19, 2025

Our Thoughts on Charlie Kirk and The Tommy Robinson Rally

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