TRIGGERnometry - Our Thoughts on Gaza Ceasefire

00:00:01.000 Ten years from now, we might look like complete fools, 0.99

00:00:04.000 even celebrating this. 0.90

00:00:06.000 However, celebrating the hostages being returned

00:00:09.000 and reunited with their families,

00:00:10.000 that in itself is worth celebrating.

00:00:13.000 And there is a generation of younger people

00:00:16.000 who are not actually that interested

00:00:18.000 in fighting their grandfather's war anymore.

00:00:20.000 And there'd be no one who'd be happier than Jeremy Corbyn, mate.

00:00:23.000 Well, you know, your joke makes a very interesting point.

00:00:28.000 The people who've been calling for a ceasefire right now

00:00:31.000 for the last two years

00:00:33.000 are the ones that are silent or very unhappy now.

00:00:36.000 What this is now is an expressly anti-Jewish, anti-Israel movement.

00:00:43.000 Can we definitely say that?

00:00:45.000 Out of all the issues, out of everything happening in the world,

00:00:49.000 genuine genocides happening in Sudan, in Syria,

00:00:54.000 the plight of the Muslim Uyghurs.

00:00:57.000 Why this?

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00:02:20.000 So, Francis, welcome back to another week of Me and You,

00:02:23.000 talking about things.

00:02:24.000 We are heading to America later this week,

00:02:26.000 so we'll talk about that.

00:02:28.000 But, of course, we're sitting here on the day

00:02:30.000 that finally the Israeli hostages have been released from Gaza.

00:02:35.000 You know, I tweeted this morning saying, you know,

00:02:38.000 a lot of the Trump derangement sufferers need to admit

00:02:42.000 that they've been wrong.

00:02:43.000 It's an extraordinary achievement.

00:02:44.000 It's a huge achievement.

00:02:45.000 If you think where we were comparatively a few weeks ago,

00:02:50.000 a few weeks ago where you saw the misery, the suffering,

00:02:53.000 on both sides.

00:02:55.000 And, you know, there's people out on the streets

00:02:57.000 saying that they're demanding a ceasefire,

00:02:59.000 which I understand children and innocent people are dying,

00:03:03.000 to the point where we now have a ceasefire.

00:03:05.000 Whether you're a fan of Donald Trump or you're not

00:03:08.000 is ultimately immaterial.

00:03:10.000 You have to give the man credit.

00:03:12.000 He has helped to achieve a ceasefire and brought to an end,

00:03:17.000 and hopefully it will be an end permanent to the war.

00:03:20.000 Well, you say that, and this is where I think it's very,

00:03:24.000 very important to introduce a note of caution at the same time,

00:03:27.000 because I do think getting the hostages back is just incredible.

00:03:31.000 Absolutely incredible.

00:03:33.000 Well, we are sitting here on Monday.

00:03:36.000 It's very possible that by the time people are listening to this

00:03:39.000 and watching it on Friday, that this conflict's already flared up again.

00:03:43.000 Yeah.

00:03:44.000 And part of the reason is, if you remember the Trump 21-point peace plan,

00:03:49.000 there are a lot of things within that that Hamas have not agreed to.

00:03:54.000 And the most important two things within that were Hamas disarms and Hamas disbanned,

00:03:59.000 and has no role in the government of Gaza.

00:04:02.000 There is no evidence that we have seen so far that we are on course for that to happen.

00:04:08.000 So we don't know how it's going to play from here, but that's to take, you know,

00:04:14.000 we should not take anything away.

00:04:16.000 Getting those hostages out of those dungeons is an incredible achievement.

00:04:21.000 And like you say, you know, neither you or I have been sort of unquestioning unilateral Trump fans.

00:04:28.000 But on this, I just don't understand how people are not capable of giving him credit for this achievement.

00:04:35.000 It's an incredible achievement.

00:04:37.000 Of course it is. Of course it is.

00:04:39.000 And you think, genuinely, what other politician, what other politician do you know in the globe right now,

00:04:47.000 who you think actually could have achieved that?

00:04:50.000 He's one of the few people.

00:04:52.000 Kim Jong-un.

00:04:53.000 Yeah, maybe. Maybe he would have gone in there.

00:04:55.000 But the reality is, Trump is one of the few people who is so bloody-minded and is so unorthodox,

00:05:04.000 I think is the best way to put it, that he could actually achieve that.

00:05:08.000 It is miraculous in many ways.

00:05:10.000 And you know what's interesting is, like the Abraham Accords in his first term,

00:05:14.000 this has been orchestrated by his son-in-law, Jared Kushner.

00:05:18.000 And this is one of the things that was heavily mocked at the time.

00:05:22.000 And look, you know, I've been very, very critical of Steve Wyckoff and his approach to Vladimir Putin in Ukraine,

00:05:29.000 because I still don't think there's any evidence to suggest that he's qualified to conduct those negotiations.

00:05:35.000 But Jared Kushner is a business guy.

00:05:38.000 And his only qualification, it seemed at the time, was that he is the president's son-in-law,

00:05:44.000 which is traditionally in a democracy, not how these things are done.

00:05:48.000 But he went in there and, you know, a story that a friend of ours told us about Kushner is that he was offered to take a lot of advice prior to going to the Middle East.

00:06:01.000 And he said, no, I need to meet everybody and hear them with my own ears and see them with my own eyes for the first time.

00:06:08.000 Because what he was trying to do was come at this problem from a fresh perspective.

00:06:12.000 And what he cottoned on to, according to my understanding, is effectively that there's a big generational divide.

00:06:19.000 A lot of the people who are in charge of Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, people like Mahmoud Abbas, they're in their 70s and 80s now.

00:06:26.000 And there is a generation of younger people in both in Gaza, in the West Bank, and in the rest of the Middle East who are not actually that interested in fighting their grandfather's war anymore.

00:06:40.000 They're interested in jobs, well-being, and they're millennials.

00:06:43.000 So they've got smartphones, they're looking around going, why would I live in this when I can do, you know, what these guys have in the West?

00:06:49.000 And the Kushner strategy was, how do we focus on the economics of this so that those people feel like they have a future?

00:06:57.000 And then all the political stuff gets resolved.

00:07:00.000 And that actually is interestingly where a lot of the Middle East now is because, you know, I've been talking to people from a lot of, you know, Jordan, Emiratis, a bunch of people.

00:07:11.000 And look, just, you know, let's just be clear, none of them have a lot of time for Palestinians. 1.00

00:07:18.000 They're really not big fans. 0.64

00:07:20.000 They sort of feel like, I mean, look, if you're Jordanian, you let a bunch of these people in your country and then they'd kill the king, right? 1.00

00:07:28.000 If you are from other parts of the Middle East, you've offered to help them many times and all they do is sabotage the process. 1.00

00:07:34.000 This is their words, not mine.

00:07:37.000 That doesn't mean they were happy with what Israel was doing.

00:07:40.000 They're not happy and a lot of them do not trust Netanyahu.

00:07:43.000 So getting this resolved, even as far as it's come so far, has been very difficult.

00:07:48.000 But clearly Jared Kushner has played a massive role in this and credit to him and credit to Trump for appointing him.

00:07:54.000 Absolutely.

00:07:55.000 And then you look at the scenes, the scenes in Israel were just so profoundly moving as well.

00:08:00.000 The fact that it felt like, of course, not completely, but the wound was starting to heal.

00:08:08.000 Israel was becoming more unified.

00:08:11.000 And we were, we are, and it's tentative because we don't know and a lot can change.

00:08:16.000 But we are on the path to maybe, maybe some stability in that region.

00:08:23.000 Because you did worry.

00:08:26.000 And there were points where I was watching this and we asked the question to Netanyahu himself.

00:08:32.000 Are you worried in getting trapped in a forever war?

00:08:35.000 That was a very real concern because violence, death, brutality, all it does is you then radicalize his people and then who will then join Hamas.

00:08:46.000 And you, there's a part, there was a part of me wondering was, well, is this just going to be it?

00:08:50.000 So the fact that we've come to this point, I think is a very real cause for celebration.

00:08:55.000 Absolutely. A massive cause for celebration, not only for the families of the hostages and the hostages themselves, but it just, it creates the opportunity for a line to be drawn under this, potentially.

00:09:10.000 But we don't know, you know, saying that 10 years from now, we might look like complete fools, even celebrating this.

00:09:17.000 However, celebrating the hostages being returned and reunited with their families, that in itself is worth celebrating.

00:09:23.000 Whether this then becomes the first step of a longer, more expansive movement towards genuine long-term peace, we don't know.

00:09:33.000 The foundations are there because like we talked about, you know, most of the countries in the Middle East now care more about the threat of Iran than they do about the hatred many of their citizens feel towards Israel.

00:09:45.000 And one of the benefits of those countries not being democracies is they don't really have to care as much about what people call the Arab street, which is very anti-Israel.

00:09:54.000 But the people at the top are really not anti-Israel at all.

00:09:57.000 They see Israel as a potential trading partner and they see the conflict with Hamas as basically an obstacle in the way for peace and prosperity for their citizens, which is what increasingly they care about, whether that's MBS, MBZ and others.

00:10:14.000 So there is the potential for this to be the first step.

00:10:19.000 But as I say, as long as Hamas remains in power, I don't think it's viable.

00:10:24.000 I mean, the first thing they did the moment this happened is they came out of the tunnels and started killing Palestinians that don't agree with them.

00:10:31.000 30 of them, yeah.

00:10:32.000 Yeah, at least. Shooting people in the legs. This is what they do. 1.00

00:10:35.000 These are brutal, violent terrorists who captured Gaza under their control and are keen to hold on to as much as they can.

00:10:44.000 And until they're removed, whether that's peacefully or otherwise, I just don't think there's a viable strategy for peace.

00:10:50.000 I hope I'm wrong about that. And I also hope that they are disarmed and effectively dismantled.

00:10:58.000 That's what needs to happen. And it just remains to be seen whether those next steps will follow.

00:11:03.000 Absolutely. And then that also brings in the issue of Iran, who are funding Hamas and they're funding Hezbollah.

00:11:09.000 As long as Iran are able to fund terrorist groups, what they're effectively doing is destabilizing a region. 0.82

00:11:16.000 They're incentivizing terrorism. They're incentivizing extremism.

00:11:21.000 So you look at Iran and you think to yourself, well, we want stability in the region,

00:11:28.000 but can you really have a stable Middle East with Iran and with that regime in place?

00:11:33.000 Now, credit to giving credit to the Israelis and the Americans, I don't think Iran is as nearly as confident as it used to be. 0.69

00:11:41.000 But I don't I wouldn't go nearly as far as to argue that it's calmed down,

00:11:46.000 particularly in terms of the way that it sees the Middle East and the way that it sees Israel.

00:11:51.000 Yeah. So that's going to present another very significant challenge,

00:11:54.000 because there's a very coherent argument to be made that unless something is done about Iran, then you're never going to be able to eradicate this problem.

00:12:01.000 Well, that's, I think, true.

00:12:04.000 But I think the answer to that problem, as I understand it, lies in uniting the rest of the Middle East with Israel against Iran, effectively. 0.59

00:12:12.000 And that is what's happening.

00:12:13.000 I mean, the Abraham Accords, when they were signed initially, they ended up including four countries.

00:12:19.000 We're hearing rumors now that Indonesia, the most populous Muslim nation in the world, is about to join them.

00:12:24.000 And if you can get Saudi Arabia and other countries as a result of this current peace process to join, then you've basically got the entire Middle East,

00:12:34.000 barring one or two countries, united against the threat of Iran. 0.66

00:12:39.000 That is a totally different prospectus than what we've got at the moment.

00:12:45.000 And of course, Iran, as you say, has been defanged somewhat in terms of what's been happening recently.

00:12:51.000 So, you know, it's a real day of hope.

00:12:54.000 We will find out, you know, I guarantee you, I'm not a historian of this conflict particularly.

00:12:59.000 I guarantee you people have sat in rooms like this for decades now on a number of occasions and gone, finally, the first step towards peace.

00:13:08.000 So, the hostages are back. Fantastic.

00:13:11.000 I hope, as successful as Trump and Kushner and the rest of his team has been in delivering this, that this carries on.

00:13:18.000 And imagine what an achievement that would be.

00:13:22.000 Not just to get the hostages back, not just to end the violence right now, but actually to lay the groundwork for permanent peace in the Middle East.

00:13:33.000 And there'd be no one who'd be happier than Jeremy Corbyn, mate.

00:13:36.000 Well, you know, your joke makes a very interesting point.

00:13:41.000 Because I don't know if you noticed, I don't know if our audience have noticed, people watching and listening to this.

00:13:47.000 The people who've been calling for a ceasefire right now for the last two years are the ones that are silent or very unhappy now.

00:13:55.000 And they don't sound...

00:13:57.000 That's the thing that is bizarre, where they go...

00:14:01.000 Number one, they don't seem...

00:14:03.000 They're not celebrating the fact there's a ceasefire.

00:14:05.000 They're not celebrating the fact that innocent human life is going to be saved and not sacrificed on the altar of war.

00:14:12.000 They...

00:14:14.000 Not only are they not happy about it, but they seem quite angry about it.

00:14:18.000 And they say, we're going to carry on marching.

00:14:20.000 And then you say, well, what is it that you actually want then?

00:14:24.000 Well, they told you.

00:14:25.000 They told you.

00:14:26.000 They told you at those marches from day one what they actually want.

00:14:30.000 Yeah.

00:14:31.000 From the river to the sea.

00:14:32.000 To the sea.

00:14:33.000 That's what they want.

00:14:34.000 And you listen to them.

00:14:36.000 And you listen to the rhetoric coming out of it.

00:14:38.000 And you go, all right, this is just straight anti-Semitism now.

00:14:41.000 Before, I could understand an argument being made that some people were there going, this is awful.

00:14:45.000 This is terrible.

00:14:46.000 I'm marching because I want an end to war.

00:14:48.000 I get that.

00:14:49.000 I think it's naive, to put it mildly.

00:14:51.000 But I get it.

00:14:52.000 But now there can be no excuse.

00:14:54.000 Now, if you go on those marches, then what are you really there for?

00:14:59.000 And the thing that's really worrying is the rhetoric that is coming out of the hard left.

00:15:03.000 The Corbyns, the Zahra Sultanas. 1.00

00:15:05.000 I mean, Zahra Sultana, to be fair to me, is at least honest. 0.83

00:15:08.000 And she says Israel should be abolished.

00:15:10.000 So she is not beating around that proverbial bush. 0.98

00:15:14.000 She wants Israel wiped from the face of the earth.

00:15:17.000 And you are seeing that narrative spread right the way through this movement.

00:15:21.000 And I genuinely think this has been a true mask off moment.

00:15:26.000 It was never about peace for a lot of you.

00:15:28.000 It was never about this human life.

00:15:32.000 It was never about the plight of honorary Palestinians.

00:15:34.000 What this is now is an expressly anti-Jewish, anti-Israel movement.

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00:16:44.000 The platform that doesn't just talk about free speech.

00:16:47.000 It protects it.

00:16:50.000 I genuinely think this has been a true mask off moment.

00:16:53.000 It was never about peace for a lot of you.

00:16:56.000 It was never about this human life.

00:16:59.000 It was never about the plight of honorary Palestinians.

00:17:02.000 What this is now is an expressly anti-Jewish, anti-Israel movement.

00:17:09.000 Can we definitely say that?

00:17:11.000 I think it's definitely anti-Israel.

00:17:13.000 Well, that's what I mean, but I'm always a little bit wary.

00:17:17.000 Look, there's loads of people that don't agree with this that I like and respect,

00:17:22.000 and you might be one of them.

00:17:23.000 I don't know.

00:17:24.000 I'm always very wary of conflating Jews with Israel.

00:17:29.000 Absolutely.

00:17:30.000 For a number of reasons, because it's the reverse of what anti-Semites do as well.

00:17:35.000 They will blame Jews for the actions of Israel.

00:17:38.000 So, can we really say that if you're critical of Israel, you're anti-Semitic?

00:17:44.000 But I don't think this is critical of Israel now.

00:17:46.000 Okay.

00:17:47.000 Can we say that if you don't believe Israel should exist, you're anti-Semitic?

00:17:50.000 I think that is where I don't...

00:18:00.000 Could you make a logical, coherent argument for the fact that it's...

00:18:04.000 Well, there are a lot of these retards, right, that think that... 1.00

00:18:07.000 Because they don't know anything.

00:18:08.000 Yeah.

00:18:09.000 They think, well, you know, I don't think Israel should be a Jewish state.

00:18:13.000 I think we just need a greater Palestine in which Jews and Muslims live peacefully ever after together.

00:18:23.000 Yeah.

00:18:25.000 Is that anti-Semitic?

00:18:26.000 I don't think so. 0.99

00:18:27.000 It's retarded. 1.00

00:18:28.000 Yeah. 0.96

00:18:29.000 But it's not anti-Semitic.

00:18:30.000 I think, why...

00:18:32.000 Why is...

00:18:34.000 And this is a quote.

00:18:35.000 This is a number that was quoted.

00:18:36.000 I don't think it's true.

00:18:37.000 I think it's probably significantly less.

00:18:39.000 But let's just take the number that was quoted, I think, by Zara Sultana.

00:18:42.000 Half a million people on the streets.

00:18:45.000 But what motivates you?

00:18:47.000 I can tell you.

00:18:48.000 Because this is something I discussed with Chris Williamson when I was on his show.

00:18:51.000 Like, those of us who are on our side of many arguments, we have to carefully think through the arguments of the people we don't agree with.

00:18:59.000 So if you put...

00:19:00.000 Imagine I'm Zara Sultana.

00:19:01.000 Yeah.

00:19:02.000 And you say, well, why are you on the streets?

00:19:04.000 Israel is a settler colonial state.

00:19:07.000 And it shouldn't exist because it's a colonizer and colonizing states, you know, are evil and wrong and it shouldn't be there.

00:19:16.000 Okay, but I don't understand why Israel, above all else, motivates you to such an extent. 0.93

00:19:28.000 That it's actually dementing.

00:19:31.000 That even a ceasefire happens and you're like, no, actually, like, Jeremy Corbyn tweeted this and we'll put the tweet up.

00:19:38.000 And he pinned it.

00:19:39.000 And it was just like, oh, yeah, but we're going to keep on marching.

00:19:42.000 Like, out of all the things happening in the world...

00:19:46.000 I might say they want a path to Palestinian statehood.

00:19:51.000 That's what they're going to march for.

00:19:55.000 They want a separate independent country for the Palestinians.

00:19:59.000 And they're going to keep marching until they get it.

00:20:01.000 Okay.

00:20:02.000 But above everything...

00:20:05.000 Why?

00:20:06.000 Why that?

00:20:07.000 Do you see what I mean?

00:20:08.000 Out of all the issues, out of everything happening in the world, there's genocides happening, genuine genocides happening in Sudan, in Syria. 0.85

00:20:18.000 You'd apply to the Muslim Uyghurs. 1.00

00:20:21.000 Why this?

00:20:22.000 And why do you keep marching even after the war has been stopped?

00:20:32.000 That's a very insightful question, I think.

00:20:35.000 It's a very insightful question.

00:20:37.000 And I partly...

00:20:38.000 See, I think part of the answer that you're, I think, proving the claim you made, which is a lot of this is about anti-Semitism.

00:20:46.000 I also think there's probably a broader thing that I'm sure you'd agree with me as well, which is it's anti-Westernism.

00:20:52.000 A lot of these people, they hate the West and they see Israel, rightly, as an outpost of Western civilization in the Middle East. 0.99

00:21:01.000 So, if you can't destroy the West, I mean, these people are trying as hard as they can to destroy the West, but this is like a point where it's actually vulnerable, where it could be destroyed.

00:21:13.000 And I think a lot of their antipathy towards Israel is that they are challenged...

00:21:17.000 In the same way that, you know, you and I have had the experience that Irish people, particularly people from Northern Ireland, particularly Catholics, are incredibly deranged about this issue. 0.99

00:21:29.000 Like, the only time I get people messaging me really hateful stuff is Irish comedians that I used to gig with about this conflict, right?

00:21:40.000 And it's not because they care about Palestinians, let's be honest.

00:21:43.000 No.

00:21:44.000 They see themselves in that conflict, their trauma, the experiences of their families, which I have obviously empathy for, but it doesn't apply to Israel. 0.98

00:21:54.000 But my point is, people, like, project their own shit onto that conflict from all sorts of different perspectives. 0.94

00:22:00.000 And I think the anti-Westerners, like Corbyn, the people who actually hate this country, and Western civilization in general, they project that onto Israel. 0.98

00:22:10.000 And Israel is much more vulnerable.

00:22:12.000 It's much easier to destroy than the United States, for example, right?

00:22:15.000 So I think it's partly about anti-Semitism, and partly it's part of their broader agenda.

00:22:19.000 Yeah.

00:22:20.000 And I've been following a lot of the hard left, because as you see our economy struggle, as you see the gap between rich and poor widen, as you see young people being unable to afford to get on the property ladder, or have the middle-class life, should we just call it, that their parents and grandparents enjoyed,

00:22:40.000 the more radicalized they have become, which I understand actually, and I have a certain degree of empathy for.

00:22:45.000 And we've seen the far left grow in prominence.

00:22:49.000 And we've seen that with the rise of Zach Polanski, your party, et cetera, et cetera, Zahra Sultana.

00:22:55.000 But I've noticed their rhetoric becoming actually, and becoming far more emboldened and far more strident.

00:23:03.000 You saw Zach Polanski on Question Time call people in reform fascists.

00:23:08.000 And you think to yourself, have you forgotten it was a matter of weeks ago that Charlie Kirk was murdered?

00:23:14.000 Can you not understand how that rhetoric is profoundly dangerous?

00:23:19.000 Can you not understand that labeling people who are in reform fascists would, to some people, particularly some people who are unstable, who unfortunately there are always unstable people in this society.

00:23:30.000 You are making a target of these politicians and these supporters.

00:23:34.000 You had Zahra Sultana in a speech saying that we need to fight fascists. 1.00

00:23:38.000 We need to fight fascists in the ballot box, in parliament.

00:23:42.000 I'm like, OK, right. And on the streets.

00:23:45.000 And you're going, hang on a second.

00:23:47.000 Is someone wearing an England shirt or wearing an England flag?

00:23:52.000 Is that a fascist? 1.00

00:23:54.000 Does that therefore mean that you can kick them, punch them? 1.00

00:23:57.000 Because if that's what you're saying, then that is incredibly dangerous. 0.96

00:24:01.000 Well, and interestingly, I mean, he's not someone who gets a lot of credit from here on trigonometry, but he deserves credit.

00:24:07.000 Lewis Goodall on LBC interviewed Zach Polanski and he asked him, you know, here are the basic criteria for fascism, basic core definitions of fascism.

00:24:17.000 You know, complete control of the state, no democracy, lots of other things.

00:24:22.000 Which of these does Farage match? And Polanski had no answer for this.

00:24:25.000 So you've described Nigel Farage as a fascist.

00:24:28.000 Now, fascism, the last time I checked, involved ultra authoritarian nationalism, the suppression of dissent, a single party state, a cult of personality and the use of violence or paramilitarism to achieve its end.

00:24:38.000 Which of those criteria would you say, Nigel Farage, satisfies?

00:24:41.000 I think most of them are on the way if you actually listen to the things that he's saying.

00:24:44.000 A single party state. He's not proposed to abolish British democracy. That's absurd.

00:24:48.000 He's not yet. But also during Brexit, when you think about take back control, some of the themes that were in there all seem to be speaking.

00:24:54.000 Well, you think that Brexit was about the consolidation and the creation of a single party state?

00:24:59.000 I think Brexit was ultimately about protecting the wealth of multi-millionaires and billionaires.

00:25:02.000 Yeah, but that's different. No, no, no. You're changing the conversation there, Zach Polanski.

00:25:05.000 I've just asked you about how you think Nigel Farage satisfies the criteria of fascism, one of which involves, a really key one, the creation of a single party state.

00:25:14.000 What has Nigel Farage said or done which would indicate any legitimacy to the idea that he's in favour of a single party state?

00:25:20.000 Well, I was about to finish with what I was saying, which is when you have excess power in this country and wealth, which often come together,

00:25:27.000 when that utilises working class resentment, you don't have to be a historian to know there are many times in the history when that's exactly when fascism begins.

00:25:34.000 Now, it does not begin, as people say, in jackboots. It doesn't begin always with militarism.

00:25:39.000 It actually begins with the kind of rhetoric we're saying. So if you're asking me, is Nigel Farage in full-blown fascist rhetoric?

00:25:46.000 Absolutely not. But if you actually listen, and Lewis, you're someone who listens very closely to the things he's saying,

00:25:51.000 he's constantly echoing things that have happened in history.

00:25:54.000 And by the way, in this conversation, Keir Starmer doesn't get off lightly either.

00:25:57.000 If you're going to go on stage and quote Enoch Powell, now, he says he didn't know that's what he was doing,

00:26:02.000 but that's not what he meant. I don't believe that for a second.

00:26:05.000 But Zapatansky, you're the one who said that we need to have more nuance and complexity in our conversations.

00:26:10.000 And yet you're the one calling Nigel Farage a fascist.

00:26:13.000 One of the things I have to say, I think the media need to do a much better job, as Lewis on that occasion did,

00:26:18.000 of actually holding these claims up to the light of scrutiny.

00:26:23.000 If you want to go on a major TV channel, on a major program like Question Time in this country,

00:26:29.000 and call someone from a mainstream Democratic Party a fascist, you need to be challenged.

00:26:35.000 You need to be challenged.

00:26:36.000 And it's one of the reasons that Polanski, who we have invited on our show many times, is dodging.

00:26:41.000 Because he knows that in a very respectful way, we are going to challenge him.

00:26:45.000 And he just, he knows he's going to get wrecked.

00:26:47.000 And that's why he won't come on. 0.94

00:26:49.000 And I think it's cowardly.

00:26:50.000 I think these people, if you want to make your bold claims, you're most welcome to.

00:26:54.000 But you need to come on a program like ours, where you're going to get lots of time, but you are going to get challenged.

00:27:00.000 Otherwise, I just think it's weak.

00:27:02.000 And Polanski is weak.

00:27:04.000 I completely agree.

00:27:06.000 I completely agree.

00:27:08.000 And it's not only weak, it's incredibly dangerous.

00:27:12.000 We all know.

00:27:13.000 And look, we've said it time and time again.

00:27:15.000 Society is more polarized than ever.

00:27:17.000 Which, unfortunately, seems to be the case.

00:27:20.000 You know, people are angry.

00:27:21.000 People are resentful.

00:27:22.000 What?

00:27:23.000 And then you're going to throw the fascist word in the mix?

00:27:25.000 And you're going to start throwing that about?

00:27:29.000 You best be very careful.

00:27:31.000 You best be careful.

00:27:32.000 And if you're going to make that allegation, that's the same as saying to someone,

00:27:36.000 Oh, you see that bloke over there? 1.00

00:27:37.000 Yeah, he's a rapist. 1.00

00:27:39.000 Well, you best be sure that you can back that up. 1.00

00:27:42.000 Do you know, I don't know that it's like saying you're a rapist, because I think in our society now, I think being a Nazi is much worse than being a rapist than the way that people think about it.

00:27:51.000 Like somebody could go to prison for rape, come out and be rehabilitated.

00:27:55.000 And we've seen people like that.

00:27:57.000 If you're a Nazi, I don't think that's a stain that ever washes off.

00:28:01.000 So when they call people Nazis, they're really, they're putting a target on their back.

00:28:06.000 And, you know, it's like you say, it's been a few weeks, a few weeks after Charlie Kirk was murdered by a guy who was quote unquote anti-fascist.

00:28:20.000 And Charlie was not a fascist, but he was killed by someone who was anti-fascist.

00:28:24.000 So what does that tell you?

00:28:25.000 When you call people fascist, you're putting a target on their back.

00:28:29.000 Now we live in a country where fortunately people don't have guns, so it's harder to do this.

00:28:35.000 But we also live in a country in which it's far less common for people in public life to have security.

00:28:41.000 So when you're calling members of reform, you know, does that mean that every politician now, if they lead a popular party, they've got to have a security team?

00:28:50.000 Is that the country we want to become?

00:28:51.000 I don't think so.

00:28:53.000 But, but if this sort of rhetoric continues, and you know, you and I have made this point for years now.

00:29:01.000 If I thought that fascism was here, if I thought that literally Hitler was about to take charge of the country, I would feel it would be my duty to participate in a forceful, i.e. violent movement to oppose it.

00:29:16.000 Because that's what you do. That's what our great, our great ancestors did. That's what your granddad did. That's what my granddad, my great grandfather did.

00:29:24.000 They went, picked up a rifle and went to the front line to fight Nazis.

00:29:28.000 So what are you doing when you're labeling people who are just mainstream democratically elected people as Nazis?

00:29:35.000 You're putting them in that same category of people who must be violently opposed. It's incredibly dangerous.

00:29:40.000 It's, it's incredibly dangerous.

00:29:42.000 And they're responsible.

00:29:43.000 And, and the worst bit is, is they just seem just to fling this word about. They just hurl it about like it's nothing. Like it's genuinely nothing. And you go 2016, that's not even 10 years ago. Joe Cox was murdered an MP by a foot by a far right extremist.

00:30:02.000 And then you go to David Amos, which was, I think, 2022. You go, those are two MPs. And you're, you're putting forward this rhetoric and you're saying the same word again and again and again.

00:30:16.000 And we know how propaganda works. You repeat the same thing again and again until people go, oh yeah, they are.

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00:32:19.000 And if you want to think about how people sort of assume that whatever's happening in the current moment is like normal, I remember Boris Johnson cycling to work as prime minister.

00:32:29.000 Yeah. Or maybe foreign secretary, David Cameron cycling, like a not very popular David Cameron, for example, prime minister could go to work on a bike.

00:32:40.000 Now, you know, he had his team around him somewhere, but do you see what I'm saying?

00:32:44.000 Sure.

00:32:45.000 This level of unsafety for public figures is completely new and it's partly a product of this rhetoric.

00:32:53.000 It's rhetoric. And let's be honest, you and I really always try to find the truth in among the polarizing chatter of both sides.

00:33:04.000 That's how we've always approached it.

00:33:07.000 But this is only coming from one side.

00:33:09.000 Yeah.

00:33:10.000 I don't hear the right talking about how Zach Polanski is like Stalin.

00:33:18.000 That's not happening. No, no one is creating an environment where those people are likely to be the subject of violence.

00:33:25.000 But it's happening the other way.

00:33:27.000 You know, we've been to, you know, I remember I think it was a spectator party.

00:33:31.000 You and I were standing outside waiting for an Uber and Nigel Farage came out and it was like burly blokes just like pushing everyone out of the way.

00:33:39.000 And it's not because he's trying to look like a rapper with a massive, it's because he needs a massive security team now.

00:33:45.000 Why? Why should the leader of a major British party in a country that historically has no history of political violence?

00:33:53.000 We're not like America. 0.59

00:33:54.000 Yeah.

00:33:55.000 How many prime ministers have been assassinated in this country?

00:33:57.000 I don't, I don't know, but I don't think this really happened.

00:34:00.000 No.

00:34:01.000 Right.

00:34:02.000 We're not a violent country in that way.

00:34:04.000 But it's now got to the point.

00:34:06.000 And that's partly because these people were perfectly happy with milkshakes being thrown at people.

00:34:10.000 Well, OK, you've demonstrated that someone can be attacked in that way.

00:34:14.000 Now they have to get security.

00:34:16.000 And it's also as well, they don't seem to understand that these things are escalatory.

00:34:20.000 It will start with milkshakes and then they'll go, oh, you know what?

00:34:24.000 Well, now that we've thrown a milkshake, why not a punch?

00:34:27.000 And then it goes from there.

00:34:28.000 Why not put acid in that cup or whatever?

00:34:30.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:34:31.000 So the way that they're behaving is irresponsible.

00:34:37.000 It's reckless and it's dangerous.

00:34:39.000 But I'm also wondering why people on the right are not calling it out harder.

00:34:44.000 Because I saw that clip from Zahra Sultana.

00:34:47.000 Whatever you think about Zahra, she's becoming a major political force, particularly online. 0.99

00:34:52.000 Online.

00:34:53.000 Online.

00:34:54.000 And you think to yourself, why are people on the right?

00:34:57.000 Why are people on the left not coming out and going, this is unacceptable?

00:35:02.000 We cannot do this.

00:35:04.000 Because you know what happens?

00:35:05.000 If violence happens to people on the right, I'm guaranteeing you that that will in the end

00:35:10.000 for increase the likelihood that it's going to happen to people on the left.

00:35:12.000 Well, obviously.

00:35:13.000 But they don't seem to understand this.

00:35:15.000 I just think the incentive structures, particularly online, are just so perverse now.

00:35:20.000 It's like the more you can polarize and divide, the more attention you're going to get.

00:35:25.000 And I really think it's time for people to take some responsibility for the things that they say.

00:35:33.000 But it's not happening.

00:35:35.000 I mean, look, if after Charlie Kirk is assassinated in the way that he is, you don't wake up and go,

00:35:40.000 I really need to think about, do I really know what the word fascist actually means?

00:35:44.000 I don't think there's any hope for these people.

00:35:47.000 No.

00:35:48.000 And so, in that case, I just think they have to be, they have to be thoroughly, thoroughly, thoroughly

00:35:54.000 defeated at the ballot box.

00:35:56.000 That's what needs to happen.

00:35:58.000 And I find it really, yeah, I agree with you.

00:36:01.000 But the fact that they have these marches and the hundreds of thousands of people turn up,

00:36:05.000 whatever the number is, and then you have Zara on that stage, throwing around that word, 1.00

00:36:10.000 riling people up.

00:36:11.000 I'm going, there's going to be statistically one or two people in there who are not particularly

00:36:18.000 stable, who have the propensity for violence.

00:36:21.000 You know, there used to be a time where politicians would come out and call for peace,

00:36:26.000 would calm people down and go, you know, this extremist rhetoric, violence is not the answer.

00:36:32.000 This is not how we do things in Britain.

00:36:34.000 We are a democracy.

00:36:35.000 We do, we sort our problems out by speaking.

00:36:39.000 We do not do this.

00:36:41.000 And I'm looking at some of these people going, I'm worried that those days are kind of slipping

00:36:48.000 away from us.

00:36:49.000 They are slipping away from us.

00:36:51.000 That is what you're seeing.

00:36:54.000 That is what you're seeing.

00:36:55.000 It's extremism all the way down if this carries on.

00:36:58.000 Because the extremes of the left and right, they're mutually radicalizing, as you pointed out.

00:37:05.000 If one goes too far, the other one is.

00:37:08.000 And that is actually what happened in the 30s.

00:37:10.000 You had communists and fascists fighting in the streets across Europe.

00:37:15.000 That is what happened.

00:37:17.000 The good thing, I think, is given the way that reform are doing in the polls, it's becoming

00:37:28.000 quite clear that it's their election to lose.

00:37:30.000 You know, a lot of things will happen between now and the election.

00:37:34.000 If they can win and if they can have a dominant victory, then a lot of this can be put to bed.

00:37:41.000 Just like we saw in America to a large extent, right? 0.84

00:37:44.000 Like, I'm not saying polarization has gone in a way in America, but when the election happened, a lot of people just went, you know what?

00:37:52.000 He's in charge now.

00:37:53.000 Yeah.

00:37:54.000 He got elected.

00:37:55.000 He won the electoral college.

00:37:56.000 He won the popular vote, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:38:01.000 We need a government that has the mandate to make the major changes this country needs.

00:38:08.000 And if that's reform or if that's a Tory reform coalition, not looking likely, or even if it's a Labour government with a massive mandate, because this government, you know, they actually tried to cut welfare.

00:38:20.000 They just couldn't because they don't have the mandate really for it and they struggled to do it.

00:38:26.000 That's the one hope is that at the next election, there is a sweeping to power of a party that has the mandate to go, OK, enough of this.

00:38:36.000 We're going to fix this.

00:38:37.000 We're going to change this.

00:38:38.000 We're going to sort this out.

00:38:39.000 That's the big hope.

00:38:40.000 That is the big hope.

00:38:41.000 And that's what I really, really hope, that we actually have a government who's going to come in and actually be prepared to make unpleasant,

00:38:50.000 but necessary policies and choices because we've spoken about this many times, including in these episodes.

00:38:57.000 We cannot keep going down the road that we're going down with this country.

00:39:02.000 Eventually, you need to wake up, smell the proverbial coffee and realize that if we carry on down this road, it's going to enter this country being bankrupt.

00:39:10.000 And when you see nations becoming bankrupt, people becoming poorer, naturally that leads to even more extremism,

00:39:17.000 which then leads to people who we've just spoken about becoming even more powerful and people being more vulnerable to incendiary rhetoric.

00:39:25.000 And because of all of that, we're going to America.

00:39:27.000 Yes.

00:39:28.000 No, we're not moving to America.

00:39:30.000 I'm only joking.

00:39:31.000 Well, we do a couple of trips a year to the US.

00:39:33.000 We're about to go for a few weeks.

00:39:36.000 We've got some super exciting guests.

00:39:38.000 We never talk about, I guess, too far in advance because the moment we mention a guest, they invariably cancel.

00:39:43.000 So we just jinx it.

00:39:45.000 I'm super excited to go.

00:39:47.000 Oh, I can't wait.

00:39:48.000 It's going to be brilliant.

00:39:49.000 It's going to be brilliant.

00:39:50.000 The quality of the conversations that you can have in the US is just fantastic.

00:39:56.000 I love doing the America guest because this country is brilliant.

00:39:59.000 I don't want anyone having a meltdown, but because America is simply a more populated nation,

00:40:04.000 that does mean that there is a depth of talent there that we can't match in this country.

00:40:08.000 You're being a little bit inauthentic there.

00:40:11.000 It's not just about the population.

00:40:13.000 America is also where everything happens.

00:40:16.000 Yeah, it's true.

00:40:18.000 Yeah, it is.

00:40:19.000 Like Keir Starmer came out and go, our foreign policy really helped to get the ceasefire. 0.91

00:40:23.000 You used to go, what the f*** are you talking about? 0.77

00:40:26.000 You were completely sidelined. 0.98

00:40:27.000 You had nothing to do with it.

00:40:28.000 Yeah.

00:40:29.000 America is where culture happens.

00:40:31.000 It's where politics happens. 0.63

00:40:33.000 It's the center of Western civilization now, as Britain once was. 0.66

00:40:36.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:40:37.000 And the number of brilliant people that we're going to be talking to, writers, thinkers, economists.

00:40:43.000 It's going to be so much fun.

00:40:45.000 YouTubers. 0.92

00:40:46.000 Business people.

00:40:47.000 Business people.

00:40:48.000 And just generally fascinating people to talk to.

00:40:51.000 We've got a really insightful view of the world.

00:40:54.000 I love going to America.

00:40:55.000 I really do.

00:40:56.000 And there's a time every trip where I'm like, I could live here.

00:41:01.000 And then something happens.

00:41:02.000 I'm like, yeah, probably not.

00:41:04.000 Yeah.

00:41:05.000 Yeah.

00:41:06.000 Well, it's something we've often thought about.

00:41:07.000 It's like, obviously, from a business perspective, it would be an incredible move for us.

00:41:13.000 But also, we love this country and we love being here.

00:41:15.000 But we love visiting and we spend increasing amounts of time in the US.

00:41:18.000 Yes.

00:41:19.000 So, we're going to go on Joe Rogan's show for the sixth time.

00:41:22.000 Yep.

00:41:23.000 Which is, if you think about it, there's not many people in the world who've been on Joe Rogan six times.

00:41:29.000 Most of the ones who have, have a lot of brain damage.

00:41:33.000 Yeah.

00:41:34.000 Because they're either comedians or UFC people.

00:41:36.000 Yeah.

00:41:37.000 Or both.

00:41:38.000 So, I don't know.

00:41:39.000 Or Alex Jones.

00:41:40.000 I don't know what that's...

00:41:41.000 Has he been on six times?

00:41:42.000 I don't think so.

00:41:43.000 Hasn't he?

00:41:44.000 I haven't counted.

00:41:45.000 Yeah.

00:41:46.000 But anyway, my point is, that's, you know, it's pretty special.

00:41:48.000 It is pretty special.

00:41:49.000 And I'm really looking forward to doing the show, hanging out with Joe.

00:41:53.000 And like I said, there's just a range of experiences and the people that you meet.

00:41:58.000 And it's so good just getting out of your own country and talking to people who see the world in a different way from a different culture.

00:42:06.000 And sun.

00:42:07.000 And sun.

00:42:08.000 Let's just be honest.

00:42:09.000 Oh, the sun.

00:42:10.000 The sun.

00:42:11.000 It's going to be great.

00:42:12.000 Well, and one of the exciting things, obviously, we always go to a bunch of different cities.

00:42:16.000 Yeah.

00:42:17.000 We often do an East Coast trip and then West Coast trip.

00:42:19.000 This time we're doing both.

00:42:21.000 So we're doing, in this trip, we're doing Austin, LA, San Francisco, which we've never been to.

00:42:27.000 Yeah.

00:42:28.000 And I am, do you know what?

00:42:29.000 San Francisco, I'm very excited about because I have seen that classic movie, The Rock.

00:42:34.000 Yeah.

00:42:35.000 Probably about a hundred times.

00:42:37.000 Yeah.

00:42:38.000 My school friends and I used to watch that on an almost daily basis.

00:42:41.000 But also some super cool guests.

00:42:43.000 Yeah.

00:42:44.000 And it's a place we haven't been to before with the show.

00:42:46.000 So we're going to have some great conversations there.

00:42:49.000 LA, Austin, and then New York on the way back as well.

00:42:53.000 And hit a few of the regulars and some new people as well.

00:42:56.000 So it's a great mixture of new and recurring guests that I'm super excited about.

00:43:01.000 I'm sorry.

00:43:02.000 It's going to be...

00:43:03.000 And you know the thing that excites me the most about these trips?

00:43:07.000 The food.

00:43:08.000 The food.

00:43:09.000 Of course it's the food.

00:43:10.000 Of course it's the food.

00:43:11.000 No.

00:43:12.000 It's the hidden gems that we didn't know.

00:43:15.000 And then we just encounter...

00:43:16.000 Like last trip it was Richard Miniter.

00:43:18.000 Yeah.

00:43:19.000 That is...

00:43:20.000 I don't know if you know but we were delighted when it hit a million views on YouTube.

00:43:24.000 It's now 1.2.

00:43:25.000 Wow.

00:43:26.000 It's kept growing.

00:43:27.000 Yeah.

00:43:28.000 Well because it's sublime.

00:43:29.000 And so those are the ones who you just go...

00:43:31.000 You kind of feel like someone who's searching and you just find this little gem.

00:43:37.000 And then you just show it to the world.

00:43:39.000 Yeah.

00:43:40.000 And you know we've got a lot of guests that we've never had on the show so we're going to

00:43:43.000 find out and you never know what they're like but all very very exciting.

00:43:47.000 Also some returning guests as well.

00:43:51.000 I really want to tell people who they are but I can't.

00:43:54.000 Yeah.

00:43:55.000 You know it'd be interesting to talk to some of our friends who we've had on the show who

00:43:59.000 were not fans of Trump.

00:44:00.000 Yep.

00:44:01.000 We'll be as vague as that.

00:44:02.000 Yep.

00:44:03.000 To find out how they feel about Trump now.

00:44:06.000 That he's secured peace in the Middle East and you know lots of other conversations.

00:44:10.000 So it should be a lot of fun and some amazing episodes to see us through to Christmas.

00:44:15.000 It will do.

00:44:16.000 It was going to be absolutely incredible.

00:44:18.000 And as always if you want to get the first dibs, the first look at the amazing guests,

00:44:22.000 there's only one place to do it.

00:44:24.000 Well you're talking about Substack which is of course triggerpod.co.uk and we have a

00:44:29.000 very special offer right now.

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TRIGGERnometry - October 17, 2025

Our Thoughts on Gaza Ceasefire

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