TRIGGERnometry - Piers Morgan： Israel⧸Palestine, Farage & Who Gets My Vote

00:00:00.880 You're a big fan of Nigel.

00:00:02.320 Yeah.

00:00:03.320 What's your beef with Faraj?

00:00:04.320 He's a treacherous little world.

00:00:05.320 I'll tell you my beef with him.

00:00:06.320 I had my own interview with Trump lined up.

00:00:07.920 Three days before, he'd been at Mar-a-Lago, where I was,

00:00:10.360 and he clearly went back to London and thought,

00:00:12.080 I'm going to sabotage him.

00:00:13.360 And he only is running this time because I called him out

00:00:15.360 on question time and told him he was bottling it.

00:00:18.360 And lo and behold, 48 hours later, he announces he's running.

00:00:21.840 I've become known as someone who asks everybody,

00:00:23.800 do you condemn Hamas?

00:00:25.280 Well, if you don't condemn what they did on October the 7th,

00:00:27.560 I don't really want to have any more time with you.

00:00:29.880 They haven't really got an end game.

00:00:31.680 But what happens after the war?

00:00:32.960 And I've been asking that question for months.

00:00:35.160 Well, what do you do when this is over?

00:00:37.120 And there's no answer.

00:00:38.480 I fear we're now into a phase of this conflict

00:00:41.840 that is going to take many, many years to try and sort it out.

00:00:45.800 Who are you voting for?

00:00:48.160 I don't know.

00:00:49.360 I honestly don't know.

00:00:52.400 Piers Morgan, fellow YouTuber.

00:00:54.120 First of all, I've just noticed you two have got makeup on,

00:00:56.520 and I haven't.

00:00:57.880 Well, we've got a professional outfit.

00:00:59.200 This is just a California tan.

00:01:00.920 No, buts, no, no.

00:01:01.760 This is where you two have gone.

00:01:03.280 The last time I saw you, there was no makeup.

00:01:06.080 You've been in America too long. 0.96

00:01:08.520 Anyway, my natural beauty will shine through.

00:01:10.760 Your natural gamony beauty is shining through brilliantly.

00:01:13.960 Welcome to the show.

00:01:15.480 Piers, you've done, I mean, you've been one of the people

00:01:18.320 who's covered the Israel-Palestine conversation the most thoroughly

00:01:22.760 from different sides.

00:01:24.060 You've taken a hell of a lot of stick and flak online for everybody.

00:01:28.140 From everyone, yeah.

00:01:28.700 From everyone.

00:01:29.900 Why have you focused on that issue as much as you have, first and foremost?

00:01:33.100 Well, when it happened, it was obviously a horrific incident,

00:01:36.780 this terror attack on October the 7th.

00:01:39.340 In all my days in journalism, straddling nearly four decades now,

00:01:43.460 it was right up there with some of the worst things we've ever seen.

00:01:47.060 So I realised the scale of what had happened was going to be enormous

00:01:51.920 in terms of repercussions, in terms of analysis,

00:01:55.520 in terms of what Israel would do by way of response.

00:01:58.320 It was very like 9-11.

00:01:59.580 What was going to happen after that?

00:02:01.080 And as we saw, the repercussions are now still ricocheting around the world.

00:02:04.600 So I felt like it was going to be an enormous story.

00:02:07.580 I also felt that it was incumbent on someone like me,

00:02:11.540 who tries to avoid boxing myself into partisan political camps.

00:02:17.100 You know, I don't associate with any party.

00:02:19.640 I don't really see myself tribal in that sense.

00:02:22.940 I prefer to come at it as a journalist, with an open mind,

00:02:27.500 but with an ability to go after both sides

00:02:29.800 if I feel like their argument is flawed.

00:02:32.400 Now, this is not an environment we live in these days,

00:02:35.120 as you guys will know from the kickback you get.

00:02:37.360 If you do that, you get attacked by everyone

00:02:39.780 because there are a lot of extremists on both sides of almost any debate.

00:02:44.100 Brexit, Trump, Israel, Hamas, whatever it is, Ukraine, Russia. 0.95

00:02:48.600 And they will suck the oxygen out there.

00:02:52.060 And then everyone on social media will pile in on behalf of their tribe.

00:02:56.580 So early on, I was aware that the numbers we were getting of people watching,

00:03:01.620 the things like Bassem Youssef, 23 million people watched that on our YouTube channel.

00:03:06.740 Absolutely enormous number.

00:03:08.240 I then went to America and did two more hours of him face-to-face.

00:03:11.380 12 million watched that.

00:03:12.620 So we were getting these gigantic audiences for this stuff.

00:03:16.440 And I realized that one of the reasons was people liked the fact I had everybody on.

00:03:20.400 They liked the fact that it didn't really matter to me who they were.

00:03:24.540 They had a big following and had influence.

00:03:27.120 I wanted them on the show, and I wanted to have a proper examination

00:03:31.340 of what they believed and what they stood for.

00:03:34.360 And I think it's been a really interesting exercise.

00:03:37.100 I mean, I think that we've positioned ourselves as a show

00:03:40.360 as somewhere that people may feel annoyed by,

00:03:44.100 if it doesn't suit their tribal concerns.

00:03:46.400 But there is an appreciation and a respect for the fact

00:03:51.120 that I'm at least platforming everybody,

00:03:53.460 because I think that's really important.

00:03:55.780 And this is going to sound like a strange question,

00:03:58.740 because it's something we take almost entirely for granted now.

00:04:01.600 But why do you think a conflict, which is quite far away from these shores,

00:04:06.160 from the shores of the United States,

00:04:08.940 is so central to the conversation we've been having for,

00:04:12.520 it will soon be a year?

00:04:13.640 Well, look, I think the root of all, and I go back to when I was on the Daily Mirror,

00:04:17.000 which I left 20 years ago, right?

00:04:19.160 And one of the last things I did was oppose the Iraq War.

00:04:23.640 I remember going back to my days on the Daily Mirror 20 years ago.

00:04:27.780 And my last big story really was the Iraq War and the consequences.

00:04:33.700 And if you look at the root cause of a lot of the problems in the Middle East,

00:04:37.960 it goes right back to 1948, right back to what happened then,

00:04:42.640 right back to this Israel-Palestine conflict, which has never been resolved.

00:04:47.960 And it's all blown up in spectacular fashion with the worst kind of acceleration

00:04:53.400 of this conflict into open war in the most catastrophic manner.

00:04:58.380 So it didn't surprise me that it became a huge global story,

00:05:02.000 because the repercussions go everywhere.

00:05:04.400 They go right through the Middle East. 0.65

00:05:05.920 They go, obviously, to America.

00:05:07.700 Fascinating to watch how America's responded to this,

00:05:11.080 how a Democrat president is getting a lot of flack

00:05:14.700 from the pro-Palestinian people in America.

00:05:17.940 You think he's not doing enough for them.

00:05:19.260 He's getting a lot of flack from pro-Israeli people saying,

00:05:21.720 why aren't you defending us more?

00:05:22.700 And I said at the start of this, and I still say it now,

00:05:25.920 this is one of the most complex moral stories I've ever had to cover.

00:05:31.780 I've used this word quandary a lot.

00:05:34.820 Anyone who makes just bold statements about this war since October the 7th,

00:05:40.080 I find slightly untrustworthy.

00:05:42.260 I don't think there is a simple answer.

00:05:44.440 I don't think there's a simple analysis.

00:05:46.340 I think it's incredibly complicated.

00:05:48.540 And frankly, I've become known as someone who asks everybody,

00:05:52.060 do you condemn Hamas?

00:05:53.720 Well, if you don't condemn what they did on October the 7th,

00:05:56.020 I don't really want to have any more time with you.

00:05:58.320 If you can't condemn the slaughter of 1,200 people

00:06:01.140 and 6,700 more wounded,

00:06:04.680 if you can't just condemn that act without any equivocation,

00:06:09.220 it's a kind of pointless conversation.

00:06:11.180 If you can, and a lot of my pro-Palestinian guests have done that,

00:06:15.520 then I can have a proper conversation with you.

00:06:17.520 Similarly, on the other side,

00:06:18.720 if your only view on the pro-Israeli side is 0.84

00:06:22.620 we've got to wipe them all out in Gaza, 1.00

00:06:25.180 I have no time for that either.

00:06:26.900 So it's not like, you know,

00:06:27.900 I will platform people right to the point I think they're complete nutcases.

00:06:31.320 And it's a complicated story.

00:06:33.720 You know, deeply difficult story.

00:06:36.240 And I fear we're now into a phase of this conflict

00:06:40.320 that is going to take many, many years to try and sort it out.

00:06:44.200 You know, it's a really profound point you're making there, Piers,

00:06:46.620 because when we interview people,

00:06:48.900 they're always either pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian.

00:06:52.340 And what happens when you have those conversations with those types of people,

00:06:55.980 no matter how well-intentioned they are,

00:06:57.660 is they're only presenting one side of the story.

00:07:00.000 So I guess my question to you is,

00:07:04.300 how do you see this conflict?

00:07:06.940 What is your analysis of it?

00:07:09.580 It's evolved.

00:07:10.940 There's no question.

00:07:11.980 Very early on,

00:07:13.000 I was adamant that Israel not only had a right to defend itself

00:07:16.720 after the scale of that attack,

00:07:18.740 but had a fundamental duty to its people to defend them

00:07:21.440 from any further attack,

00:07:22.860 particularly given that the Hamas official spokesman

00:07:25.880 was on camera saying,

00:07:27.820 we're going to keep trying to do this again and again and again.

00:07:30.320 No Israeli prime minister or government could do anything

00:07:33.660 but do what they could to defend their people.

00:07:37.080 And I think any country in the world, that would apply.

00:07:39.860 So I took that as my starting point.

00:07:42.240 They have a right and a duty to defend themselves.

00:07:44.760 But very quickly into it,

00:07:46.100 it was clear that the scale of the response from Israel

00:07:48.160 was going to be pretty much unprecedented.

00:07:50.740 And then the question becomes,

00:07:52.740 what is too much?

00:07:54.840 What is acceptable?

00:07:55.700 What strays into potential war crimes?

00:07:59.740 At what point does your right to defend itself

00:08:01.680 give you the right to obliterate large sections of Gaza 1.00

00:08:05.660 and tens of thousands of innocent people,

00:08:08.160 particularly given that half the population is under 18?

00:08:13.200 I mean, that's a staggering number of children.

00:08:16.780 And particularly given the complexity of the fact

00:08:19.360 that Hamas deliberately embed themselves 0.59

00:08:21.240 amongst the civilian population,

00:08:23.360 making it incredibly difficult

00:08:24.720 to target terrorists from civilians.

00:08:27.220 So that's what I mean about this being a very difficult story to cover

00:08:31.200 and a very difficult moral quandary for me.

00:08:33.320 I don't see it as a simple thing at all.

00:08:36.180 And as it's gone on,

00:08:37.940 what I felt is that,

00:08:40.220 and you're starting to see a splinter now

00:08:41.600 in leading members of the Israeli political sphere,

00:08:46.100 is that they haven't really got an end game

00:08:48.820 for what happens after the war.

00:08:50.520 And I've been asking that question for months.

00:08:52.680 Well, what do you do when this is over?

00:08:54.440 And there's no answer.

00:08:56.220 You know, a lot of Gaza has been completely destroyed.

00:08:59.260 People's homes are gone.

00:09:01.040 They're now attacking what they say are the last remnants of Hamas,

00:09:04.820 but I suspect there's a lot more Hamas left than we think.

00:09:07.540 They're now attacking them in a refugee camp 1.00

00:09:09.440 where they've sent over a million people, right?

00:09:12.500 None of that sits easily with me,

00:09:14.140 and I don't think with many people

00:09:15.320 who are not on the extremity of this debate.

00:09:17.800 So I don't know what the end game is here.

00:09:21.980 I'm, you know, you're seeing now Netanyahu 0.96

00:09:23.920 sort of suggesting we're nearing the end of the war.

00:09:27.740 Well, how?

00:09:28.780 You haven't got rid of Hamas. 0.93

00:09:30.200 That was your stated mission.

00:09:32.600 And it's an interesting thing with public opinion in Israel

00:09:34.740 because the polls suggest that they support

00:09:37.560 the elimination of Hamas, majority of people in Israel,

00:09:42.140 but they do not support Netanyahu personally.

00:09:45.280 And so the moment this war's over,

00:09:46.900 he's almost certainly going to be out of a job,

00:09:48.680 and then he goes in to face corruption charges in a trial.

00:09:52.520 Where's the incentive for Netanyahu to end this war?

00:09:55.660 You know, and he's being driven

00:09:56.860 by some very right-wing members of his cabinet,

00:10:01.240 you know, Smodrich and Ben-Gavir and others.

00:10:03.980 And their language, I have to say,

00:10:05.520 I don't think Israel is waging a genocide

00:10:07.720 because it has the tools to actually wage

00:10:10.140 a total genocide of Palestinian people in Gaza.

00:10:14.080 But I do think some of the language

00:10:15.680 some of those people have been using

00:10:17.360 has been genocidal.

00:10:19.300 And I can understand why people are very fearful

00:10:21.580 that that is what they really want to do,

00:10:23.520 drive Palestinians from Gaza irrevocably. 0.98

00:10:26.340 So, you know, what happens now?

00:10:30.360 How do we go back to any kind of normality?

00:10:33.020 What happens to the people who've been displaced,

00:10:35.280 who've lost their homes?

00:10:36.300 What happens to the ideology

00:10:37.880 which fueled all this to start with?

00:10:40.740 Has that been made worse

00:10:43.080 by the scale of Israel's response?

00:10:45.640 Or is it a bit like what happened with the Nazis

00:10:48.380 after World War II,

00:10:50.120 where there was such a ferocious attack

00:10:51.800 on all things Nazi,

00:10:54.000 that it kind of pretty much disappeared?

00:10:56.780 I think that's a very big question

00:10:58.560 as to whether the ideology behind a mass

00:11:02.520 has actually been fueled by what's happened.

00:11:05.420 If you've had a child who's been killed,

00:11:08.000 are you more or less likely to gravitate

00:11:10.340 to the people that you may perceive in your mind

00:11:16.020 have acted as some kind of resistance?

00:11:17.900 I don't know.

00:11:19.320 But it's going to be a huge question

00:11:21.720 for what happens, I think, after this is over.

00:11:24.960 And there's also the geopolitical element.

00:11:26.820 Like, you look at Iran, 1.00

00:11:27.880 who have been funding a lot of terrorism in that area.

00:11:31.180 They're not going to stop.

00:11:32.080 As long as the Isle Atollah is in power, 0.99

00:11:34.040 he's going to keep doing that.

00:11:35.340 No question.

00:11:35.920 And then you see Lebanon as well.

00:11:37.740 Very dangerous.

00:11:38.620 I mean, Hezbollah will be next. 0.98

00:11:40.920 You can almost take it to the bank.

00:11:43.340 And that will be on a whole different scale

00:11:44.820 than anything Hamas has done.

00:11:46.400 So this is a very perilous...

00:11:47.800 Can I ask why?

00:11:48.520 Because there'll be a lot of people

00:11:49.500 who have heard of Hezbollah or Hezbollah,

00:11:51.460 but they wouldn't know why that is.

00:11:53.340 Can you explain for the audience?

00:11:54.440 Well, they're just better armed.

00:11:55.280 There's more of them,

00:11:56.220 and they're better armed.

00:11:57.760 So, you know,

00:11:58.440 Hamas has always been a kind of splinter terror group 0.89

00:12:02.720 masquerading as government in Gaza,

00:12:06.120 taking billions of dollars,

00:12:08.240 a lot of it at the direct express wish of Netanyahu,

00:12:13.760 because he wanted to split the two Palestinian camps,

00:12:16.880 Palestinian Authority and Hamas.

00:12:18.720 It suited him that they're at each other's throats.

00:12:21.160 So there's been a lot of money channeled to Hamas,

00:12:24.800 and they've obviously used that to arm themselves,

00:12:27.720 probably with a lot of help from Iran,

00:12:29.660 and Hezbollah the same.

00:12:30.940 So I think there's no doubt that if you're Iran 0.99

00:12:35.240 and you're seeing the havoc that has been caused

00:12:38.560 by one event on October the 7th,

00:12:40.620 then you'd be very tempted to try and help

00:12:43.580 another organization not dissimilar to Hamas,

00:12:47.340 like Hezbollah, 0.84

00:12:47.980 to do something on an even bigger scale,

00:12:50.000 because they may feel this is their chance

00:12:52.380 to do what they've always wanted to do,

00:12:54.420 which is just obliterate Israel. 0.92

00:12:56.880 And that's, of course,

00:12:57.820 what's at the heart of Israel's fear about all this.

00:12:59.860 And a lot of the, you know,

00:13:01.360 I remember interviewing Netanyahu in Jerusalem

00:13:03.720 for CNN about 10, 11 years ago.

00:13:07.580 And the two things that he did,

00:13:09.900 which really interested me in terms of the psychology,

00:13:12.440 he took me to a picture of his brother,

00:13:14.760 who was a captain in the Israeli forces

00:13:17.080 who died in the raid in Antebi.

00:13:18.960 And he started crying as he showed me the picture.

00:13:21.600 So that just showed me that everyone involved in this,

00:13:24.620 a bit like with Northern Ireland,

00:13:25.760 it's so deep-rooted, it's so personal.

00:13:27.660 Everyone's got a personal story like this

00:13:30.600 at some stage of what's been going on

00:13:32.680 in the history of Israel and Palestine.

00:13:35.460 But secondly, he took me to a map behind his desk,

00:13:38.200 which is a really interesting visual, this.

00:13:40.280 And he went, watch this.

00:13:41.100 And he took his hand and he put it on Egypt, 0.91

00:13:45.560 Saudi Arabia, Jordan.

00:13:47.620 He went around all the big Arab countries

00:13:49.640 around Israel with his hand.

00:13:52.120 And then he took his thumb and he put it on Israel 0.81

00:13:55.880 to show the scale of how tiny Israel is

00:13:59.980 surrounded by these enormous Arab countries.

00:14:02.920 It was a powerful thing.

00:14:04.800 I remember joking to him, saying,

00:14:06.920 do you wish you'd been put somewhere else?

00:14:08.620 And he went, well, like where?

00:14:10.080 I went, I don't know, Belgium?

00:14:11.760 I mean, it was a very powerful visual.

00:14:14.400 Now, Israel is obviously incredibly well-armed.

00:14:17.100 It's obviously helped in that by the United States

00:14:20.720 who has an extremely powerful ally.

00:14:23.020 But this has, I think, made all Israelis, 1.00

00:14:25.800 and I think this is a really important point

00:14:27.560 to make as well about the general overview,

00:14:30.600 it's made them very fearful.

00:14:32.560 The scale of what went on,

00:14:35.280 as I can say, nearly 7,000 people were attacked.

00:14:40.000 1,200 were killed in the most barbaric, brutal manner.

00:14:43.140 And these were in peace-loving areas

00:14:46.340 where a lot of the people there

00:14:48.820 were trying to help Palestinians.

00:14:52.300 So if you look at it in the Israeli context

00:14:55.720 of what the people there feel,

00:14:57.160 they must feel very fearful,

00:14:59.180 just as a lot of people in Gaza feel very fearful.

00:15:02.280 All the people in Gaza probably feel very fearful.

00:15:05.600 So that's what I mean again about,

00:15:07.420 this is a very complex story.

00:15:09.320 And if you try and have a simple or simplistic view,

00:15:13.900 I think you are, well,

00:15:17.340 it must be comforting to you to do that.

00:15:19.280 But it's not the right way to approach the story.

00:15:22.460 It's too complicated.

00:15:23.860 And it's also what the United States does with it,

00:15:28.500 with this situation.

00:15:29.400 Because on the one hand,

00:15:30.740 you have Israel, long-time allies and partners.

00:15:33.960 On the other hand,

00:15:34.620 you've signed the Abraham Accords.

00:15:35.840 And also, you're relying on a lot of these Arab countries for oil.

00:15:40.060 So it's not as simple as like,

00:15:41.660 we're all in with the Israelis,

00:15:42.860 because you can't alienate them for business reasons,

00:15:45.880 and also because you need them.

00:15:47.860 I mean, the most significant thing to me

00:15:49.660 is how inactive and quiet Saudi Arabia has been.

00:15:53.740 And if you notice that, they've said very little.

00:15:56.440 Saudi Arabia wants normalization of relations with Israel.

00:16:00.660 They've seen the way it's gone

00:16:02.500 with some of the other countries in the region.

00:16:05.120 And Saudi Arabia knows the oil's running out,

00:16:08.340 and they're going to have to rely on tourism

00:16:10.300 and entertainment and sport and these other things.

00:16:13.000 And to do that, they're going to have to open up,

00:16:15.600 and they're going to have to have a better relationship

00:16:17.880 with countries like Israel.

00:16:19.540 They know that.

00:16:20.580 Israel knows that. 0.50

00:16:21.580 There's no will for that to be stopped.

00:16:24.840 But of course, what has been going on

00:16:26.620 makes it very difficult for Saudi leaders

00:16:28.540 with the Muslim population

00:16:31.160 to now say, right,

00:16:33.960 now we're going to get into business bed with Israel. 0.83

00:16:36.020 It's very difficult.

00:16:37.380 So again, come back to what I said.

00:16:39.760 These are morally complex issues,

00:16:42.020 and how these big superpowers now play this out

00:16:46.680 is going to be absolutely crucial

00:16:48.300 to the long-term future of the region.

00:16:50.280 One of the interesting things you raise there, Pierce,

00:16:52.560 is the Israeli position,

00:16:54.360 or maybe the Netanyahu position of,

00:16:56.160 you know, we're going to eliminate Hamas.

00:16:58.140 Do you think that that was ever possible?

00:17:00.440 No.

00:17:00.640 And do you think that it was certain?

00:17:01.840 I mean, maybe you could argue it was possible

00:17:04.120 if they nuked Gaza. 0.53

00:17:05.600 But apart from that,

00:17:06.800 how do you even fight a terrorist group?

00:17:09.340 Somebody made this very powerful point.

00:17:11.020 I don't even know,

00:17:11.700 may even have been on your show

00:17:13.040 about the fact that,

00:17:14.200 you know, I have family in Ukraine.

00:17:15.480 A lot of people, when there's bombing,

00:17:17.520 go and hide in tube tunnels

00:17:19.600 and all sorts of other tunnels,

00:17:21.420 underground bunkers, etc.

00:17:23.460 We know that that is not what's happening in Gaza.

00:17:25.740 The civilians don't have access

00:17:27.160 to the biggest network of tunnels ever.

00:17:29.940 So you've got a population

00:17:31.600 that is being used in this way,

00:17:33.520 essentially as a human shield.

00:17:35.260 Hamas have said...

00:17:36.240 And the leaders of Hamas,

00:17:38.160 the billionaires who run it,

00:17:39.840 are all living in Qatar.

00:17:41.420 In five-star hotels.

00:17:42.540 Right.

00:17:42.760 So they've done nothing for the people

00:17:45.280 of Gaza, let's be clear.

00:17:47.400 And they've run a pretty despotic regime

00:17:50.200 since they took power in 2005.

00:17:53.080 I don't think that there can be any future

00:17:55.660 for Gaza that involves Hamas

00:17:58.020 having any leadership at all

00:17:59.460 or be part of any government.

00:18:01.340 That's my own view.

00:18:02.620 I don't think there can be any future

00:18:04.080 for Netanyahu

00:18:05.860 or the more right-wing,

00:18:08.580 genocidal, talking members of his cabinet.

00:18:11.340 I think they've all got to go too.

00:18:12.440 It reminds me a bit of Northern Ireland.

00:18:13.860 You know, when ultimately,

00:18:16.720 you know, again,

00:18:17.260 you had terrorists living

00:18:18.200 in civilian population.

00:18:19.840 The British response to that

00:18:21.060 was not to go and unload

00:18:22.500 2,000-pound bombs on Belfast.

00:18:25.260 Right?

00:18:25.520 Because we recognize that we call it...

00:18:27.620 They're not exactly the same,

00:18:29.300 but the principle's interesting

00:18:31.020 to explore.

00:18:31.520 Just for context,

00:18:32.400 I think it would be relevant.

00:18:33.380 Your point about 7,000 people,

00:18:35.640 you know, 1,200 killed

00:18:36.940 and others wounded.

00:18:37.780 If you take that

00:18:38.460 in the British context,

00:18:39.360 that would be about 35,000.

00:18:41.000 Right, so imagine 35,000 people

00:18:42.740 being attacked in Britain

00:18:43.680 by people in Northern Ireland.

00:18:47.080 Say the IRA had done that.

00:18:48.200 They wouldn't have done,

00:18:48.880 but say they had, right?

00:18:49.820 What would have been the pressure

00:18:51.280 from the British people

00:18:52.700 to go and eradicate the IRA?

00:18:54.080 What would Thatcher have done, 0.91

00:18:55.000 let's say?

00:18:55.360 Right.

00:18:55.560 It would have been a very,

00:18:56.720 you know,

00:18:56.940 big test of any prime minister.

00:18:58.860 So I don't underestimate that at all.

00:19:01.360 And again,

00:19:02.780 there would be a fundamental duty

00:19:03.880 of a British government

00:19:04.720 to defend itself

00:19:05.680 and defend its people

00:19:07.060 from any further attacks

00:19:08.880 of that nature, of course.

00:19:10.700 And if the IRA were then,

00:19:12.480 you know,

00:19:12.660 to extrapolate the analogy,

00:19:14.320 if they were living

00:19:14.940 as they were amongst civilians,

00:19:16.740 what do you do?

00:19:17.860 How do you get rid of them?

00:19:19.500 Ultimately,

00:19:20.080 you couldn't get rid of them.

00:19:21.600 And ultimately,

00:19:22.440 it had to be a political settlement,

00:19:24.480 which it will have to be

00:19:25.560 with Palestine and Israel.

00:19:27.620 There will have to be

00:19:28.500 a political solution.

00:19:30.020 But if you ask most Israelis

00:19:31.740 right now,

00:19:33.060 how do you feel

00:19:33.700 about a two-state solution?

00:19:35.460 I would imagine

00:19:36.260 almost all of them

00:19:37.000 would say no thanks.

00:19:37.840 Because we can't live in terror.

00:19:41.460 You know,

00:19:41.660 but I would say back to them,

00:19:43.760 you're never going to get rid

00:19:44.840 of this problem

00:19:45.360 until every Palestinian 1.00

00:19:46.720 has the same human rights

00:19:48.780 that you do.

00:19:50.500 They have to have

00:19:51.660 the same rights as you.

00:19:52.840 And if they don't,

00:19:54.120 why shouldn't they?

00:19:55.360 Explain to me

00:19:56.020 why they don't have

00:19:56.540 the same rights.

00:19:57.640 Explain to me

00:19:57.940 when this all started

00:19:58.980 and Israel's first response

00:20:01.240 was to turn off the energy

00:20:02.360 and the water

00:20:02.920 and the food supplies

00:20:04.240 into Gaza.

00:20:06.400 Right there,

00:20:07.100 you had evidence

00:20:08.220 of the occupation,

00:20:10.880 as the critics of Israel

00:20:11.780 have called this

00:20:12.440 for many decades,

00:20:13.580 that when you have

00:20:14.440 a power like Israel 0.99

00:20:15.680 that has the ability

00:20:17.000 to turn off

00:20:17.940 large swathes of energy

00:20:19.940 and water

00:20:21.000 into another country,

00:20:24.640 right,

00:20:25.080 that is a form of occupation.

00:20:28.340 Whether they want to

00:20:29.400 call it that or not,

00:20:30.660 that cannot be sustainable

00:20:32.100 going forward.

00:20:33.560 You've got to offer people

00:20:34.660 in Palestine

00:20:35.360 equal rights.

00:20:37.480 You've got to give them

00:20:38.240 a chance to self-govern

00:20:39.420 properly,

00:20:40.380 not being run

00:20:41.220 by a terror group

00:20:42.040 but by people

00:20:42.840 who are more moderate

00:20:44.040 as we found

00:20:44.660 in Northern Ireland.

00:20:45.900 You've got to have

00:20:46.460 big leaders

00:20:47.140 who come forward

00:20:47.840 who genuinely want peace.

00:20:49.320 I don't think Hamas

00:20:50.060 want peace.

00:20:50.780 I don't think Netanyahu

00:20:51.560 wants peace.

00:20:52.620 He showed no sign

00:20:53.660 of wanting to actually

00:20:54.780 have a peace settlement

00:20:55.520 to this

00:20:55.940 in his entire tenure

00:20:57.160 as Prime Minister.

00:20:57.700 So I think you need

00:20:59.120 clear new leadership

00:21:01.140 to sort this out.

00:21:02.560 Do you think that

00:21:03.140 the Northern Ireland example

00:21:04.600 just maybe

00:21:05.860 this is a sad thing

00:21:06.920 to say out loud

00:21:07.760 but sometimes

00:21:09.420 in these terrible situations

00:21:11.180 people have to get tired

00:21:12.880 of killing each other

00:21:13.600 and they're just not?

00:21:14.840 Yeah, I mean that kind of

00:21:15.720 happened in Northern Ireland.

00:21:16.600 That's what I mean.

00:21:17.400 But it took...

00:21:18.100 And to be clear

00:21:18.780 there were very bad people

00:21:19.660 on both sides of Northern Ireland.

00:21:20.900 A lot of the loyalist terrorists 0.95

00:21:22.180 were just as despicable 0.97

00:21:23.540 as IRA terrorists. 0.96

00:21:24.880 Terrorism is terrorism.

00:21:26.200 Whoever's perpetrating it.

00:21:27.220 But in the end

00:21:28.160 it was Tony Blair

00:21:29.700 Bill Clinton

00:21:30.620 John Major

00:21:31.780 George Mitchell

00:21:32.700 all these big figures

00:21:34.420 managed to get through it

00:21:36.360 and got to peace

00:21:37.560 when a lot of people

00:21:38.860 thought it was impossible.

00:21:40.340 When the IRA

00:21:40.720 were blowing everybody up

00:21:41.800 all the time

00:21:42.240 people thought

00:21:42.660 you never do peace

00:21:43.460 with these people.

00:21:44.280 You end up with Sinn Féin

00:21:45.300 as a dominant party

00:21:46.100 in Northern Ireland.

00:21:46.880 Who would have thought that

00:21:47.660 30 years ago?

00:21:48.860 Would have been unthinkable.

00:21:50.240 You know the Queen

00:21:50.860 ended up having to shake hands

00:21:52.280 with Gerry Adams

00:21:53.340 and Martin McGuinness.

00:21:54.820 Right?

00:21:55.000 The people who had been

00:21:56.160 part of the

00:21:56.820 organisation

00:21:57.740 which had murdered

00:21:58.840 some of her own family.

00:22:01.100 Right?

00:22:01.300 But ultimately

00:22:02.020 she recognised

00:22:03.020 this was what she had to do.

00:22:05.400 That's statesmanship.

00:22:06.540 That's leadership.

00:22:07.720 Now what do you do here?

00:22:09.000 I think you've got to get

00:22:09.880 new leaders in.

00:22:11.320 I mean I really do.

00:22:12.360 On both sides.

00:22:13.300 And fast.

00:22:13.940 Broadway's smash hit

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00:22:41.740 Murbish.com

00:22:42.880 And bringing it

00:22:45.420 closer to home

00:22:46.140 one of the things

00:22:46.920 I think this conflict

00:22:47.780 has also revealed

00:22:48.780 is the splits

00:22:49.980 within our own societies

00:22:51.080 here in the UK

00:22:51.880 in the United States

00:22:53.400 all over the West

00:22:54.200 frankly.

00:22:55.140 What have you made

00:22:56.040 of what we've seen

00:22:57.700 on the streets

00:22:58.420 of this country

00:22:59.100 in the media

00:22:59.840 in the commentary

00:23:00.640 just how

00:23:01.900 our body politic

00:23:03.340 has reacted to this?

00:23:05.500 I think you're seeing

00:23:06.280 a lot of young people

00:23:08.020 in particular

00:23:08.640 falling for a lot

00:23:10.280 of disinformation

00:23:11.140 spewed by things

00:23:12.160 like TikTok.

00:23:13.420 TikTok is now

00:23:14.160 the number one news source

00:23:15.120 for people under 24

00:23:16.100 in the world.

00:23:17.880 I think a lot of the

00:23:18.840 when you see these interviews

00:23:20.020 with some of these young people

00:23:21.280 taking part in protest marches

00:23:23.200 at universities in America

00:23:24.420 or here

00:23:24.800 and you ask them

00:23:26.080 about the conflict

00:23:26.760 they don't seem to know

00:23:27.440 very much.

00:23:27.700 We did one on trigonometry.

00:23:29.780 It was fantastically

00:23:31.100 enlightening

00:23:32.020 because they didn't really

00:23:33.040 know what they were doing

00:23:33.800 or what the history was

00:23:35.360 or anything.

00:23:36.220 I read a very good piece

00:23:37.760 by Jonathan Friedland

00:23:38.620 of The Guardian.

00:23:39.420 He's a Jewish columnist

00:23:40.540 and he wrote

00:23:41.760 a very good piece

00:23:42.380 early on saying

00:23:42.980 I could construct

00:23:44.060 a very good argument

00:23:45.080 for both sides

00:23:46.440 to have a very good cause

00:23:47.940 to be the real victim here

00:23:49.640 in this whole conflict

00:23:50.940 going back to 1948.

00:23:52.920 It was a very interesting piece

00:23:54.200 where I thought

00:23:55.360 we need more of that

00:23:56.420 more of an acknowledgement

00:23:57.560 that actually

00:23:58.260 this is incredibly complicated

00:23:59.640 and you can construct

00:24:01.820 an argument

00:24:02.600 for Israel

00:24:03.460 and why they've

00:24:04.960 had to go through

00:24:06.020 75 years of hell

00:24:07.360 you can construct

00:24:08.340 exactly

00:24:08.920 as powerful

00:24:10.100 an argument

00:24:10.620 for the Palestinians

00:24:11.980 and why they have

00:24:13.300 and it's pretty similar

00:24:15.080 to what was going on

00:24:15.800 in Northern Ireland.

00:24:16.960 So ultimately

00:24:17.420 you've got to get people

00:24:18.400 that can barrel through that

00:24:20.140 and get to resolution.

00:24:21.960 It's incredibly difficult

00:24:22.880 and I don't really see

00:24:24.020 many leaders out there

00:24:25.840 that can do this.

00:24:26.480 Oddly

00:24:26.900 Trump might be one of them

00:24:28.980 in his normal

00:24:30.640 kind of brutal way

00:24:32.440 actually

00:24:33.420 he can be quite effective

00:24:35.580 in this kind of thing.

00:24:36.240 It would be very interesting

00:24:36.840 what he does

00:24:37.340 both with here

00:24:38.060 and with Ukraine.

00:24:39.640 It sounds like you're assuming

00:24:40.560 he's going to get elected.

00:24:42.100 I think he will.

00:24:43.600 I mean

00:24:43.780 I think the debate

00:24:45.420 will be very enlightening.

00:24:46.360 I don't know

00:24:46.500 when this is going out

00:24:47.280 but

00:24:47.560 the debate

00:24:49.240 in the 90 minutes

00:24:50.100 of Joe Biden

00:24:50.700 standing there

00:24:51.280 means one of two things.

00:24:52.820 Either he manages

00:24:53.820 to get through it

00:24:54.660 without falling over,

00:24:56.060 falling asleep

00:24:56.680 or saying something 1.00

00:24:57.620 unbelievably stupid 1.00

00:24:58.640 in which case 1.00

00:25:00.520 it's probably a win

00:25:01.380 or as I suspect

00:25:03.340 he'll get found out

00:25:04.940 as somebody

00:25:06.280 who's got

00:25:06.920 you know

00:25:07.660 the onset of dementia.

00:25:09.460 And I'm going to

00:25:10.340 continue to move

00:25:11.140 until we get

00:25:11.580 the total ban

00:25:12.400 on the

00:25:14.140 total initiative

00:25:15.720 relative to

00:25:16.740 what we're going to do

00:25:17.420 with more border patrol

00:25:18.760 and more

00:25:19.640 asylum officers.

00:25:21.500 President Trump?

00:25:22.400 I really don't know

00:25:23.280 what he said

00:25:23.740 at the end of that sentence.

00:25:25.020 I don't think he knows

00:25:25.780 what he said either.

00:25:26.660 Look.

00:25:27.200 Making sure

00:25:27.740 that we're able

00:25:28.200 to make every single

00:25:29.340 solitary person

00:25:30.800 eligible for

00:25:32.940 what I've been able

00:25:33.460 to do with

00:25:33.980 the COVID

00:25:36.220 excuse me

00:25:37.040 with dealing

00:25:38.760 with everything

00:25:39.820 we have to do

00:25:40.500 with

00:25:40.840 look

00:25:42.880 if

00:25:44.860 we finally

00:25:46.540 beat Medicare

00:25:47.600 then the American

00:25:49.620 people will all

00:25:50.300 be watching

00:25:50.800 and ultimately

00:25:52.480 the election

00:25:53.100 could be won

00:25:53.920 or lost

00:25:54.200 on that debate stage.

00:25:55.120 but I just

00:25:56.140 get a feeling

00:25:56.660 that Trump

00:25:57.200 I had it in 2016

00:25:58.620 the same feeling

00:25:59.420 that there was

00:25:59.900 just this train

00:26:00.920 steaming through

00:26:02.300 middle America

00:26:03.360 which the coasts

00:26:04.740 just weren't aware of

00:26:05.700 and we're going to

00:26:06.880 catch a terrible cold.

00:26:07.840 I wrote this

00:26:08.460 in a lot of columns

00:26:10.120 I wrote one

00:26:11.100 on the day

00:26:11.840 week of the election

00:26:13.300 saying he's going to win

00:26:14.460 I wrote on the day

00:26:16.220 he ran

00:26:16.660 a column saying

00:26:17.860 I think he may win this

00:26:19.100 everyone laughed at me

00:26:19.860 but I felt strongly

00:26:21.260 that he was going to win

00:26:21.780 2020 I didn't know

00:26:22.840 I was far less short

00:26:24.480 this time I'm getting

00:26:25.440 that feeling again

00:26:26.320 because I feel like

00:26:27.740 the deliberate weaponization

00:26:29.600 by the left in America

00:26:31.140 of the justice system

00:26:32.100 has backfired

00:26:32.820 horrendously on them

00:26:34.260 and either it's part

00:26:35.340 of a Machiavellian plot

00:26:36.760 where they've done

00:26:37.600 this deliberately

00:26:38.280 because they wanted

00:26:38.840 Trump as the nominee

00:26:40.300 or it's just a

00:26:42.080 catastrophically bad

00:26:43.460 political play

00:26:44.700 where all it's done

00:26:45.860 is make Trump

00:26:46.420 more and more popular

00:26:47.200 which is what's happened

00:26:48.360 and raise him

00:26:49.100 tens and hundreds

00:26:50.500 of millions more dollars

00:26:51.420 I mean he's the first guy

00:26:52.700 I can ever remember

00:26:53.160 he's been convicted

00:26:53.840 of a criminal offence

00:26:55.160 who ends up

00:26:56.160 with about 100 million

00:26:57.100 more dollars

00:26:58.060 within a week

00:26:58.680 than he did to start with

00:26:59.640 I mean it's unbelievable

00:27:00.820 but it's entirely

00:27:02.560 I think appropriate

00:27:05.120 given the overreach

00:27:06.720 of that case

00:27:07.440 to drag an American 0.95

00:27:08.580 president for the first

00:27:09.820 time ever

00:27:10.360 through a criminal

00:27:11.300 court process

00:27:12.300 over a one night stand

00:27:14.040 with a porn star

00:27:14.700 20 years ago 0.56

00:27:15.520 nobody cares

00:27:16.740 if it was one

00:27:17.820 of the other cases

00:27:18.360 fine but it wasn't

00:27:19.760 it was the porn star 0.94

00:27:20.880 it was Stormy

00:27:21.720 who changes the story

00:27:23.380 left right and centre

00:27:24.260 it was

00:27:24.840 all of it

00:27:25.840 was so kind of

00:27:26.740 low rent

00:27:27.400 cheap as chips

00:27:28.760 pointless

00:27:29.920 and then they convict him

00:27:31.740 and it's like

00:27:32.140 really

00:27:32.800 I don't think people

00:27:34.340 see Trump as a felon

00:27:35.520 unless you're a real

00:27:36.140 diehard Trump hater

00:27:37.440 most independents

00:27:39.680 moderates

00:27:40.280 people in the middle

00:27:41.380 which is a lot of people

00:27:42.460 probably like

00:27:43.280 why do we do that

00:27:44.520 to one of our presidents

00:27:45.320 but Piers

00:27:46.540 what do you think

00:27:47.520 that says

00:27:48.240 about the American

00:27:49.080 system in general

00:27:50.720 political system

00:27:51.600 it's going down

00:27:52.020 a very dangerous path

00:27:53.500 where once you start

00:27:54.680 weaponising

00:27:55.440 justice systems

00:27:56.820 you become a

00:27:57.540 banana republic

00:27:58.260 you don't think

00:27:59.460 the Republicans

00:27:59.960 will now do this

00:28:00.660 to Joe Biden

00:28:01.760 and his family

00:28:02.480 the moment they get

00:28:03.560 the chance

00:28:03.980 if they win

00:28:04.360 of course they will

00:28:04.980 and it's been

00:28:06.000 heading

00:28:06.540 hurtling

00:28:07.520 you know

00:28:08.320 I mean I remember

00:28:09.080 going to interview

00:28:10.300 John McCain

00:28:11.960 Joe Lieberman

00:28:13.320 and Lindsey Graham

00:28:14.100 in the Senate

00:28:15.440 when I was at CNN

00:28:16.340 and they were like

00:28:17.640 three mates

00:28:18.320 not all from

00:28:19.900 the same party

00:28:20.580 but they were able

00:28:21.540 to debate stuff

00:28:23.020 argue with each other

00:28:24.560 and then they all

00:28:24.960 went and had dinner

00:28:25.560 they were friends

00:28:26.340 I wonder how much

00:28:27.740 of that goes on

00:28:28.360 these days

00:28:28.820 I wonder how many

00:28:29.680 senators are actually

00:28:30.580 friends with people

00:28:31.320 across the aisle

00:28:32.280 probably very few

00:28:33.180 it's got so nasty

00:28:34.600 so toxic

00:28:35.320 fuelled by

00:28:36.440 tribalism on social media

00:28:38.320 which just plays

00:28:39.780 you know

00:28:40.020 only 20% of people

00:28:41.720 are on X

00:28:42.920 in America

00:28:44.320 and the UK

00:28:44.900 of those

00:28:46.520 10% make 80%

00:28:48.660 of the noise

00:28:49.300 and they tend to skew

00:28:50.520 to the extremities

00:28:51.360 once you know that

00:28:52.560 you realise that

00:28:53.700 X is not a representation

00:28:55.120 of what the majority

00:28:56.280 of people are thinking

00:28:57.160 but it sounds like

00:28:59.180 they are

00:28:59.660 it sounds like

00:29:01.160 these people

00:29:01.800 are speaking for everybody

00:29:03.100 and it's all

00:29:04.140 savage and toxic

00:29:05.320 and horrible 0.97

00:29:05.940 and abusive

00:29:06.500 and that is a big problem

00:29:08.200 I hope Elon Musk

00:29:09.000 can somehow sort it out

00:29:10.140 it's very hard

00:29:10.700 when you're Elon Musk

00:29:12.000 and you're trying

00:29:12.500 to promote free speech

00:29:13.740 which in his head

00:29:15.120 means you allow people

00:29:16.120 like Alex Jones

00:29:16.860 to be on the platform

00:29:17.700 which I think

00:29:18.320 is completely wrong

00:29:19.680 I've had this

00:29:20.140 conversation with him

00:29:21.080 I think that's the

00:29:23.300 that's the problem

00:29:24.320 isn't it

00:29:24.700 that's the dilemma

00:29:25.400 do you let everybody

00:29:26.840 have a voice

00:29:27.640 on a big platform

00:29:29.600 like X

00:29:30.160 even if they're getting

00:29:30.920 you know

00:29:31.720 tens of millions

00:29:32.560 of followers

00:29:33.120 and then deliberately

00:29:34.160 telling lies

00:29:35.280 about mass shooting

00:29:37.200 victim families

00:29:38.660 to make themselves rich

00:29:40.500 even if it means

00:29:41.860 those families

00:29:42.400 then get abused

00:29:43.360 and have horrific

00:29:44.480 things happen to them

00:29:45.440 should that person 0.80

00:29:46.640 be given that platform

00:29:48.020 to do this

00:29:48.980 I don't think so

00:29:50.000 so I think these are

00:29:51.840 again

00:29:52.320 it's complicated

00:29:53.460 free speech

00:29:54.780 I'm an absolute advocate

00:29:56.600 for free speech

00:29:57.480 but there are limits

00:29:59.060 in I mean look

00:29:59.880 the First Amendment

00:30:00.420 is one of the most

00:30:00.860 powerful defenders

00:30:02.200 of free speech

00:30:02.780 in the world

00:30:03.160 but there are

00:30:03.740 limitations in that

00:30:04.820 they list them

00:30:05.640 there are things

00:30:06.500 you cannot do

00:30:07.400 things you cannot say

00:30:09.200 in a proper

00:30:10.560 democratic society

00:30:11.680 and that's how

00:30:12.200 as it should be

00:30:13.140 because in many ways

00:30:14.840 what Musk did

00:30:15.940 when buying X

00:30:16.780 and I was actually

00:30:17.340 very happy he bought X

00:30:18.780 it was a reaction

00:30:20.600 to shadow banning

00:30:22.220 the suppression

00:30:22.800 that we saw

00:30:23.440 and he was right

00:30:24.020 about that

00:30:24.500 yes

00:30:24.840 I mean what happened

00:30:26.200 with say the New York

00:30:26.960 Post and the Hunter

00:30:27.940 Biden story

00:30:28.420 was a complete disgrace

00:30:29.640 and Elon Musk

00:30:30.780 I think was enraged

00:30:31.680 as we all were

00:30:32.520 about what happened there

00:30:33.880 they literally helped

00:30:34.980 Joe Biden win the election

00:30:36.180 by suppressing a story

00:30:38.020 that turned out

00:30:38.580 to be completely true

00:30:39.720 and that was an outrage

00:30:41.960 the New York Post

00:30:42.680 Twitter account

00:30:43.440 was locked out

00:30:44.260 for two weeks

00:30:45.000 because they wouldn't

00:30:46.660 delete it

00:30:47.280 and why should they

00:30:48.480 delete a true story

00:30:49.380 it was a proper scoop

00:30:50.200 and it could have had

00:30:51.560 according to all the polls

00:30:52.640 it could have had

00:30:53.340 a significant impact

00:30:54.680 on how people voted

00:30:56.180 so when I said

00:30:57.640 to Donald Trump

00:30:58.100 to his face

00:30:58.580 stop going on

00:30:59.580 about the stolen election

00:31:00.600 there's no evidence

00:31:01.340 you had that election

00:31:02.100 stolen in the way

00:31:03.380 you're trying to make out

00:31:04.260 you did

00:31:04.680 with dodgy ballots

00:31:06.180 and all the rest of it

00:31:06.980 actually the American system

00:31:08.840 is one of the best

00:31:09.640 and safest in the world

00:31:10.720 everybody can see that

00:31:13.080 I think he's not

00:31:14.280 in a partisan mindset

00:31:17.220 but if he said

00:31:19.540 that I had it robbed

00:31:20.660 from me

00:31:21.180 by suppression

00:31:21.940 of true stories

00:31:23.920 about my opponent

00:31:25.100 and his family

00:31:25.860 I'm with him

00:31:27.020 I'm with him

00:31:28.200 because he could have

00:31:28.940 swung the election

00:31:29.540 40 odd thousand votes

00:31:31.360 swung that election

00:31:32.640 imagine if the Biden

00:31:34.800 story had broken

00:31:35.620 and had been the only thing

00:31:36.540 people were talking about

00:31:37.500 for two weeks

00:31:38.300 was the contents

00:31:39.060 of that laptop

00:31:39.720 and how this guy

00:31:41.880 running for president

00:31:42.800 how his son

00:31:44.380 had ended up

00:31:46.000 on the board

00:31:46.560 of an energy company

00:31:47.880 in Ukraine

00:31:49.080 for which he had

00:31:49.920 zero qualifications

00:31:51.220 and was earning

00:31:52.140 a seven figure sum

00:31:53.140 and then there was

00:31:54.120 the big guy

00:31:55.080 who was taking a percentage

00:31:56.480 I'm not a conspiracy theorist

00:31:58.780 but you know

00:31:59.820 you added up

00:32:00.740 it's very murky

00:32:01.780 what Hunter Biden

00:32:02.620 was doing

00:32:03.100 and I would absolutely

00:32:04.400 like to have known more

00:32:05.520 before I cast a vote

00:32:07.140 if I was an American

00:32:07.780 in that election

00:32:08.520 about how far this went

00:32:10.360 and how murky

00:32:11.640 it really got

00:32:12.380 so I think

00:32:13.460 it's very important

00:32:14.740 so Elon Musk

00:32:15.340 is absolutely

00:32:16.040 bang on about that

00:32:17.220 but should people

00:32:18.380 like Alex Jones

00:32:19.480 get a platform

00:32:20.140 I don't think so

00:32:21.220 so you just had him

00:32:22.160 on your show

00:32:22.680 Elon I think

00:32:23.300 I've not interviewed him yet

00:32:24.540 I met him

00:32:25.480 you met him

00:32:26.140 did you debate this point

00:32:27.360 first time I met him

00:32:28.040 yeah actually we did

00:32:28.720 we had a drink

00:32:29.480 and we were talking about it

00:32:30.400 and he was

00:32:30.660 it was much more

00:32:31.420 probably like most people

00:32:32.540 on exit

00:32:33.460 can be quite a sad

00:32:34.460 one on one

00:32:35.780 I found him

00:32:36.560 extremely charming

00:32:38.380 highly intelligent

00:32:40.100 I mean he did a little

00:32:40.820 Q&A first

00:32:41.540 for a small group of us

00:32:42.520 and I was peppering

00:32:43.540 him with questions

00:32:44.080 I think he knew

00:32:44.620 I was lining up

00:32:46.320 the interview

00:32:46.780 but you know

00:32:47.880 I would love to interview him

00:32:48.700 and he's kind of agreed

00:32:49.740 but we'll see if he does it

00:32:50.660 he

00:32:51.860 I found him fascinating

00:32:53.540 I think he's one of the most

00:32:54.280 brilliant minds in the world

00:32:55.220 I mean no question

00:32:56.260 and I had that view

00:32:58.380 reinforced by what

00:32:59.540 he was like

00:33:00.040 actually to see an action

00:33:01.560 in the Q&A

00:33:02.140 I mean this guy

00:33:03.260 you know

00:33:04.160 he's thinking all the time

00:33:05.120 about colonising Mars

00:33:06.700 he's thinking about

00:33:08.180 humanoid robots

00:33:09.620 and how many billions

00:33:10.720 there are going to be

00:33:11.240 and what they're going to do

00:33:12.560 you know

00:33:13.480 he's thinking about

00:33:14.460 massive grand scale stuff

00:33:16.360 to save the planet

00:33:17.280 so I think in his heart

00:33:18.680 Elon's a really good guy

00:33:20.220 who has a really good outlook

00:33:22.580 for the world

00:33:23.220 he wants to save us

00:33:24.220 from ourselves

00:33:25.060 so I completely applaud him on that

00:33:27.160 I think on X

00:33:28.500 he's

00:33:29.660 he's driving this whole

00:33:31.740 free speech mission

00:33:32.600 and I salute him for it

00:33:33.940 and cheer him on

00:33:35.080 but free speech

00:33:36.740 should not come

00:33:37.800 with zero limitation

00:33:38.920 and it certainly

00:33:40.400 shouldn't come

00:33:40.980 with no consequence

00:33:41.920 which I think

00:33:42.620 on the second part

00:33:43.260 he totally agrees

00:33:43.960 I think he's genuinely got

00:33:45.520 a slight quandary

00:33:47.300 about who you let on

00:33:48.500 and who you don't

00:33:49.280 I mean at the moment

00:33:50.200 you know

00:33:51.020 it's like

00:33:51.460 should the Ayatollah of Iran

00:33:54.080 be allowed an account

00:33:55.960 on X

00:33:56.700 if he's promoting violence

00:33:57.600 he's very gender critical

00:33:58.720 so probably not

00:34:00.100 right

00:34:00.380 and if he's promoting violence 0.79

00:34:02.340 against Jewish people 1.00

00:34:04.340 and Israel

00:34:05.140 he can make a good argument

00:34:07.320 that he shouldn't be

00:34:08.440 but these are complex things

00:34:10.000 I don't pretend it's easy at all

00:34:11.320 it's a very tough job

00:34:12.320 he's got

00:34:12.800 very tough job

00:34:13.640 Piers

00:34:14.220 moving a little closer to home

00:34:15.720 we've obviously got

00:34:16.460 an election coming up

00:34:17.520 we know you're voting reform

00:34:18.720 you're a big fan of Nigel

00:34:21.420 what's your beef with Faraj

00:34:23.340 he's a treacherous little 0.88

00:34:24.200 I'll tell you my beef with him 0.91

00:34:25.420 and tell me how you would have responded

00:34:27.000 I take people as I find them

00:34:29.120 right

00:34:29.340 like I'd heard all this bad stuff

00:34:30.800 about you two

00:34:31.400 and I

00:34:31.680 actually when I met you

00:34:32.740 I thought you were good guys

00:34:33.680 we're sorry to disappoint you

00:34:37.080 you know

00:34:37.780 very disappointing

00:34:38.820 I used to get on fine with Faraj

00:34:41.200 didn't agree with him politically

00:34:42.140 about a lot of stuff

00:34:42.840 but I got on fine with him

00:34:43.680 we shared a love of cricket

00:34:44.640 and real ale

00:34:46.200 and we would bump into each other

00:34:47.520 and often do both at the same time

00:34:48.980 and that was fine

00:34:49.920 and then

00:34:50.260 an extraordinary thing happened

00:34:52.500 where

00:34:52.800 he was at GB News

00:34:54.760 I was

00:34:55.240 talk TV

00:34:56.100 we were sort of rivals

00:34:57.140 but not really

00:34:57.800 and he got an interview with Trump

00:34:59.720 and I sent him a text message

00:35:02.220 many congrats on a great scoop

00:35:04.200 he went

00:35:04.840 thank you

00:35:05.200 that's really good of you

00:35:05.860 I really appreciate that

00:35:06.760 right

00:35:06.960 three months later

00:35:07.960 I had my own interview with Trump

00:35:09.100 lined up for the first show

00:35:10.240 of my

00:35:10.600 of my Piers Morgan

00:35:11.800 I sent him

00:35:12.360 and just before it started

00:35:14.200 somebody came to me

00:35:15.820 with three sheets of paper

00:35:16.960 and we got a big problem

00:35:17.980 the boss wants to cancel the interview

00:35:19.820 I went

00:35:20.100 why

00:35:20.400 he said

00:35:20.800 well he's just been sent this

00:35:21.700 by somebody

00:35:22.280 I said

00:35:22.580 what is it

00:35:23.000 and it was three pages

00:35:24.460 of all the more critical things

00:35:25.780 I'd said and written about Trump

00:35:26.900 in the previous year

00:35:27.680 someone had gone to really

00:35:28.680 painstaking effort

00:35:30.140 to just go over everything

00:35:31.980 I'd ever written or said

00:35:33.000 and put them all in

00:35:34.040 and right in the middle of all this

00:35:35.340 were two complimentary quotes

00:35:37.420 about Trump

00:35:38.000 from Nigel Farage

00:35:39.300 so I was curious

00:35:40.420 I went on his Twitter account

00:35:41.640 sure enough

00:35:42.640 three days before

00:35:43.580 he'd been at Mar-a-Lago

00:35:44.560 where I was

00:35:45.220 having dinner with his mate

00:35:46.940 Donald Trump

00:35:47.640 and Trump had clearly mentioned to him

00:35:49.420 that I was coming to an interview

00:35:50.600 and he clearly went back to London

00:35:52.360 and thought I'm going to sabotage him

00:35:53.860 and I just put those two things together

00:35:56.040 me

00:35:56.500 gracious

00:35:57.420 dignified

00:35:58.160 congratulating him

00:35:59.160 on a good scoop

00:35:59.940 him

00:36:00.640 I'm

00:36:01.360 three months later

00:36:02.240 I'm going to ruin

00:36:03.380 his

00:36:04.340 chance

00:36:05.480 of a good scoop

00:36:06.360 why do you think he did that? 0.99

00:36:08.000 because I think he's a treacherous little worm 0.99

00:36:10.000 and you find out 0.98

00:36:11.140 you've made that point

00:36:12.000 you find out people's character

00:36:14.100 in moments like that

00:36:15.220 and no one can persuade me otherwise now

00:36:17.400 because I had first hand experience of it

00:36:19.320 luckily

00:36:20.060 I managed to salvage it

00:36:21.660 and talk it around

00:36:22.320 and got a great interview with Trump

00:36:23.460 but it could easily have all just been cancelled

00:36:26.060 and I would have been home

00:36:27.240 £100,000 out of pocket

00:36:29.580 or whatever it costed

00:36:30.420 we had eight people there

00:36:31.420 flown in from all around the world

00:36:32.580 and it was our launch show

00:36:35.000 it could have been

00:36:36.260 a really bad situation for us

00:36:38.380 so his mission failed

00:36:40.500 but the intent was clear

00:36:41.720 and I wouldn't trust him

00:36:43.160 as far as I could throw him

00:36:44.320 that's interesting

00:36:45.120 at the same time

00:36:46.720 as an objective journalist

00:36:48.100 you have to recognise

00:36:48.940 he's making a big impact

00:36:50.220 in the country at the moment

00:36:51.660 well he's making an impact

00:36:53.040 purely because the others aren't really

00:36:55.220 yeah

00:36:55.480 I mean it's a bizarre situation

00:36:56.760 where the Tories are in total meltdown

00:36:59.020 and I think they're going to get

00:37:00.180 a massive shellacking

00:37:01.600 just a question of how bad

00:37:04.260 and how many survive actually

00:37:06.020 it's a bit like the Titanic going down

00:37:07.620 it's like you just don't know

00:37:08.340 how many people will get in the lifeboat

00:37:09.620 well it's like 70 of them

00:37:11.020 have jumped themselves

00:37:11.960 right

00:37:12.360 and it could be

00:37:13.620 there's only 70 left

00:37:14.800 and it may be a lot of the cabinet

00:37:15.880 get wiped out

00:37:16.600 it's going to be a fascinating spectacle

00:37:20.420 seeing who ends up keeping their job

00:37:22.840 but I don't feel like this kind of

00:37:26.020 messianite zeal

00:37:27.560 of support for Keir Starmer

00:37:29.520 like there was for Blair back in 97

00:37:31.680 I remember that

00:37:32.500 I was on the steps of Downing Street

00:37:34.180 at 4 in the morning

00:37:34.980 people singing

00:37:36.260 things are going to get better

00:37:37.340 they meant it

00:37:38.280 they thought this guy

00:37:39.440 is going to fix things

00:37:40.120 now he inherited a healthy economy

00:37:41.960 and was able to hit the ground running

00:37:43.480 and actually did a very good job

00:37:44.920 for a lot of time

00:37:46.720 for a number of years

00:37:47.540 I thought Blair lost the plot

00:37:49.220 over Iraq

00:37:49.880 but prior to that

00:37:51.340 he did a lot of really

00:37:52.300 you know

00:37:52.920 impressive stuff

00:37:53.920 and made Labour electable

00:37:55.980 in a way that we hadn't seen

00:37:57.180 for a very long time

00:37:58.240 Keir Starmer

00:37:59.840 is a decent person

00:38:02.060 I've interviewed him

00:38:02.980 for my life story show

00:38:03.940 for three hours

00:38:05.380 people can't hide

00:38:06.920 when you have that long with them

00:38:08.100 about every aspect of her life

00:38:09.760 had a very tough upbringing

00:38:10.920 very conscientious

00:38:13.700 hard working

00:38:14.560 rose to the top

00:38:15.760 to be Director of Public Prosecutions

00:38:17.260 is now on the verge

00:38:18.560 of rising to the top of politics

00:38:19.640 you know

00:38:20.160 that's two different industries

00:38:22.400 where he's risen to the top

00:38:24.040 so definitely not to be underestimated

00:38:25.700 I think he's a serious minded guy

00:38:28.060 he's a bit boring

00:38:29.240 there's no doubt

00:38:30.640 he's not as charismatic

00:38:31.500 as other more charismatic

00:38:33.240 political figures

00:38:34.320 but I don't mind being bored for a bit

00:38:36.200 if he can actually get the job done

00:38:37.420 the question

00:38:37.900 the problem he's going to have

00:38:39.580 and the big question

00:38:40.680 is where's he going to find

00:38:42.040 the money to do anything

00:38:42.860 he's already ruled out

00:38:44.140 nearly three quarters

00:38:45.440 of all the revenue streams

00:38:46.540 from taxation

00:38:47.420 so he's only going to

00:38:48.720 better tax the rich

00:38:49.680 and there's only a certain amount

00:38:51.960 you can do with that

00:38:52.680 and as I've always

00:38:53.400 tried to explain

00:38:54.720 to my more socialist friends

00:38:56.080 just whacking the rich all the time

00:38:58.080 doesn't really work

00:38:59.040 the rich just get on planes

00:39:00.440 and go and live somewhere else

00:39:01.420 and that's what I fear may happen

00:39:02.700 it's already happening

00:39:03.440 it's already happening

00:39:04.340 and I think it's going to accelerate

00:39:05.320 so look

00:39:06.360 he needs a bit of luck

00:39:07.740 if the economy starts to bounce back

00:39:09.340 he may have a chance

00:39:10.500 to do some of the things

00:39:11.820 he wants to do

00:39:12.420 if the economy really does stagnate

00:39:14.340 for quite a while longer

00:39:15.340 I don't know what they're going to do

00:39:16.880 there's no money

00:39:18.060 Piers

00:39:18.880 and the problem is as well

00:39:19.960 and I look at

00:39:20.540 all the major political parties

00:39:22.360 is that they're completely

00:39:23.840 lacking a vision

00:39:24.880 Blair had a vision

00:39:26.060 Thatcher had a vision

00:39:27.040 all great leaders

00:39:28.160 have a vision

00:39:28.780 of the country

00:39:29.800 they want to create

00:39:30.600 and to be brutally honest

00:39:32.000 none of this lot do

00:39:33.040 No

00:39:33.360 and nor does Nigel Farage

00:39:34.480 I mean his vision

00:39:35.140 basically comes down to

00:39:36.520 stop the foreigners coming in 1.00

00:39:38.100 all of them

00:39:39.000 if he had his way

00:39:40.160 right

00:39:40.400 and it's a glib

00:39:41.660 way of summarising it

00:39:43.480 but pretty much

00:39:44.260 that's all he talks about

00:39:45.200 and if you actually look

00:39:46.200 at some of the policies

00:39:47.040 he's come up with recently

00:39:48.060 none of them are sustainable

00:39:49.280 he couldn't afford

00:39:50.220 to do any of these things

00:39:51.180 Farage is a flamethrower

00:39:52.880 who then runs away

00:39:54.020 from the scene

00:39:54.600 of the fire

00:39:55.520 he ignites

00:39:57.180 in my opinion

00:39:57.980 Do you not think

00:39:58.880 let me just challenge you briefly

00:39:59.960 do you not think

00:40:00.640 for example

00:40:01.160 I read the Reform Manifesto

00:40:02.520 I like you

00:40:03.260 I don't like the idea

00:40:04.220 of net zero immigration

00:40:05.120 I don't think that's workable

00:40:06.120 I do think they've gone

00:40:07.560 for a lot of things

00:40:08.500 that taken together

00:40:10.180 they probably can't afford

00:40:11.460 but do you not think

00:40:12.400 it's good that somebody

00:40:13.380 is talking about

00:40:14.060 we shouldn't have net zero

00:40:15.180 and spend 30 billion pounds

00:40:17.300 a year

00:40:17.620 It's fine to do these things

00:40:18.700 but it's a bit like

00:40:19.300 with Brexit

00:40:19.800 right

00:40:20.120 he was a mastermind

00:40:22.560 of Brexit

00:40:22.980 he was the guy

00:40:24.260 that drove Brexit

00:40:25.320 he was largely responsible

00:40:27.200 for Brexit happening

00:40:28.560 and then

00:40:29.640 he backs away

00:40:31.280 and for the next eight years

00:40:32.280 not me Gov

00:40:33.140 oh they're doing it wrong

00:40:34.320 if only I was doing it

00:40:36.040 okay well then

00:40:37.360 why weren't you running

00:40:38.440 right

00:40:39.380 the truth is

00:40:40.120 he's lost every time

00:40:40.940 he tried to run

00:40:41.640 and he only is running this time

00:40:43.380 because I called him out

00:40:44.200 on question time

00:40:44.960 and told him he was bottling it

00:40:46.920 and lo and behold

00:40:47.860 48 hours later

00:40:49.060 he announces he's running

00:40:49.980 because the audience

00:40:50.780 were all booing him

00:40:51.440 for bottling it

00:40:52.040 so I feel personally invested

00:40:53.900 in this campaign

00:40:55.320 I can tell

00:40:55.860 but I'm glad

00:40:58.760 if it's made him

00:40:59.340 more accountable

00:40:59.900 because I want Farage

00:41:01.580 to if he wants

00:41:02.160 to be serious

00:41:02.700 about these seismic things

00:41:04.320 he wants for the country

00:41:05.280 then put yourself

00:41:06.580 right in the coalface

00:41:07.940 don't just slide away

00:41:09.860 and earn all your money

00:41:11.700 doing TV

00:41:13.180 and saying from the sidelines

00:41:15.140 it's not working

00:41:15.860 because I'm not doing it

00:41:16.880 get in there

00:41:17.660 and make it work

00:41:18.520 you know

00:41:19.320 I said to him

00:41:19.860 can you think of one reason

00:41:20.800 why we shouldn't have

00:41:21.420 a second referendum

00:41:22.220 on Europe

00:41:23.460 given how badly

00:41:24.980 it's gone

00:41:25.580 and given that

00:41:26.580 most people now

00:41:27.400 in all the polls

00:41:27.980 suggest they would vote

00:41:28.980 to go back in

00:41:30.500 it's not likely to happen

00:41:32.120 but actually

00:41:33.240 if I was Keir Starmer

00:41:34.080 I would seriously consider it

00:41:35.340 you know

00:41:35.780 it's been a willful act

00:41:36.820 of self-harm

00:41:37.360 I voted Remain 0.99

00:41:38.180 but was happy

00:41:39.380 to see if Brexit would work

00:41:41.080 eight years later

00:41:42.000 does anyone genuinely

00:41:42.960 think he's working

00:41:43.720 I mean just on

00:41:45.120 controlling our borders

00:41:46.680 I mean it's a joke

00:41:47.980 so

00:41:49.120 I don't believe Farage

00:41:51.600 can fix these problems

00:41:52.980 but maybe he'll surprise me

00:41:55.040 and maybe we'll do

00:41:55.920 another interview

00:41:56.480 in two years

00:41:57.200 and he'll be the knight

00:41:58.540 the knight in shining armour

00:42:00.220 we were all waiting for

00:42:01.380 who could make Brexit work

00:42:03.140 who could sort immigration 0.98

00:42:04.740 who could sort net zero

00:42:06.600 who could do everything

00:42:07.600 the Americans

00:42:08.160 he's being sarcastic

00:42:09.340 yeah

00:42:09.720 actually I'm not

00:42:11.220 because maybe he can

00:42:13.640 I just don't think he will

00:42:15.300 but one thing

00:42:16.020 that can't be denied

00:42:16.920 Piers

00:42:17.280 is that he is going to have

00:42:18.580 a seismic impact

00:42:19.680 on this election

00:42:20.640 maybe not by winning seats

00:42:22.580 but by the effect

00:42:23.660 it's going to have

00:42:24.200 on the Conservative Party

00:42:24.660 I think he'll have

00:42:25.260 yes

00:42:25.800 on that he will

00:42:26.980 not on the election

00:42:27.880 so much as the Conservative Party

00:42:29.440 I think Labour

00:42:30.600 are going to win

00:42:31.120 by a historic margin

00:42:33.080 have a humongous majority

00:42:35.440 which they will

00:42:36.660 thoroughly have deserved

00:42:37.860 from the incompetence

00:42:38.880 of their opponents

00:42:39.540 because the way

00:42:40.700 that the Tories

00:42:41.360 have been in the last

00:42:42.080 three four years

00:42:42.740 has been catastrophically bad

00:42:44.440 to squander the majority

00:42:46.020 Boris Johnson

00:42:46.740 in 2019

00:42:47.480 to get to where

00:42:48.620 we are today

00:42:49.340 with people not even

00:42:50.420 wanting to admit in public

00:42:51.480 they're going to vote Conservative

00:42:52.500 because it's too embarrassing

00:42:53.920 it's like nothing

00:42:55.520 I've ever seen

00:42:56.180 and I blame Boris Johnson

00:42:57.720 and you can see

00:42:58.960 from the moment

00:42:59.460 Partygate blew up

00:43:00.720 the one rule for us

00:43:02.140 another rule for the rest of you

00:43:03.440 from that moment on

00:43:04.560 he was done

00:43:05.320 in public opinion

00:43:06.220 Liz Truss

00:43:07.200 and her anarchic 0.99

00:43:08.780 40 odd days

00:43:10.420 in so-called power

00:43:12.200 trying to tank

00:43:12.860 the entire economy

00:43:13.800 of the country

00:43:14.380 and Richie Sooner

00:43:15.640 picking up the pieces

00:43:16.500 when it was all too late

00:43:17.580 and making a series

00:43:18.680 of missteps

00:43:19.240 in his campaign

00:43:20.020 I just thought

00:43:21.200 the thing that summed it up

00:43:22.000 for me

00:43:22.220 and I like Richie personally

00:43:23.180 he's a good man

00:43:24.340 but to have your launch

00:43:26.320 and announcement

00:43:27.280 for the election

00:43:27.840 and you're getting drowned 0.99

00:43:29.200 like a rat

00:43:29.900 because no one's

00:43:30.460 giving you an umbrella

00:43:31.140 just basic

00:43:33.340 it's the basics of politics

00:43:34.820 to come back early

00:43:35.940 from the D-Day

00:43:36.660 the last great D-Day

00:43:38.720 commemorations

00:43:39.980 to come back early

00:43:40.940 and leave your opponent

00:43:41.840 to do pictures

00:43:43.620 with Zelensky

00:43:44.720 to leave David Cameron

00:43:46.540 one of your predecessors

00:43:48.100 in our foreign secretary

00:43:49.080 to be posing

00:43:50.300 with the President

00:43:50.740 of the United States

00:43:51.420 I mean it was madness

00:43:52.860 and I think partly

00:43:55.600 of course Richie

00:43:56.580 I'm sure

00:43:57.020 is kicking himself

00:43:58.260 but where are his advisors

00:43:59.920 who are these people

00:44:01.660 who didn't actually

00:44:03.260 physically drag him back

00:44:05.180 you know

00:44:06.120 and say

00:44:06.420 this is political suicide

00:44:08.260 to do this

00:44:08.780 and also

00:44:09.400 to not realise

00:44:11.160 that being there

00:44:12.240 being the British Prime Minister

00:44:13.400 on that momentous day

00:44:14.800 would be good for you

00:44:16.020 with the electorate

00:44:16.840 would win you votes

00:44:18.020 reminding people

00:44:19.400 you're the boss

00:44:20.180 so I think

00:44:21.120 that they've made

00:44:21.800 a lot of missteps

00:44:22.520 Labour have just been

00:44:23.640 trying not to scare

00:44:24.740 the horses

00:44:25.720 and the children

00:44:26.460 Lib Dems will do

00:44:28.000 surprisingly well

00:44:29.380 I could see them

00:44:30.480 getting 60 plus seats

00:44:31.920 Reform I think

00:44:32.980 they'll be lucky

00:44:33.400 to win more than

00:44:33.980 one or two

00:44:34.520 but what they will do

00:44:35.840 is make the Conservative Party

00:44:37.160 really examine itself

00:44:38.480 and the question is

00:44:39.280 do they veer right

00:44:40.680 to the way

00:44:41.800 pharaohs would like 0.82

00:44:42.560 to drag them

00:44:43.280 or is there somebody

00:44:44.820 dynamic

00:44:45.480 who can come

00:44:46.140 through the middle

00:44:46.720 who can actually

00:44:47.880 wrestle

00:44:48.980 the centre ground

00:44:50.520 again for the Conservative Party

00:44:51.900 and take them that way

00:44:53.420 I fear

00:44:54.260 you're going to see that

00:44:55.540 which is Farage

00:44:56.740 will drag the party

00:44:58.000 very right wing

00:44:59.580 it won't work

00:45:00.640 because no

00:45:01.620 really right wing

00:45:02.780 party has ever been

00:45:04.040 elected in this country

00:45:04.900 and I think

00:45:06.140 what will happen

00:45:06.800 is eventually

00:45:07.460 it'll come back

00:45:08.780 and somebody will come through

00:45:09.980 who has a more centrist

00:45:11.640 or moderate Conservative

00:45:13.120 view for the country

00:45:14.000 and then we'll see

00:45:15.660 whether Starmer

00:45:16.340 does one turn or two

00:45:17.620 do you not think

00:45:18.720 or more

00:45:19.300 do you not think

00:45:20.240 and I take your point

00:45:21.280 historically

00:45:21.840 we've never tended

00:45:22.800 to vote for parties

00:45:23.880 who are very right wing

00:45:24.780 but let's look

00:45:25.580 and I don't mean far right

00:45:26.320 I think people get

00:45:28.220 labelled far right

00:45:29.260 far too quickly

00:45:30.160 what I'm talking about

00:45:31.120 are just really

00:45:31.640 quite hard right policies

00:45:33.220 it tends not to be

00:45:34.640 a vote winner

00:45:35.260 for the majority

00:45:35.980 of the country

00:45:36.600 agreed

00:45:37.100 but now

00:45:37.700 look at what's happening

00:45:38.740 in Europe

00:45:39.280 where you have

00:45:40.160 some hard right

00:45:41.600 parties

00:45:42.740 doing incredibly well

00:45:44.120 if not winning elections

00:45:45.320 because

00:45:45.820 the parties in power

00:45:47.640 are ignoring

00:45:48.780 the concerns

00:45:49.460 of their people

00:45:50.140 but that's what's

00:45:50.960 happening here as well

00:45:51.880 it is

00:45:52.280 and so that's where

00:45:53.220 this battleground

00:45:53.900 is going to be

00:45:54.540 and it's only going to get worse

00:45:55.780 under Starmer

00:45:56.460 that's why I think

00:45:57.940 they will get dragged

00:45:58.800 to the right

00:45:59.280 because the people

00:46:00.220 are growing more populist

00:46:02.660 because as we've seen

00:46:03.720 it around Europe

00:46:04.540 you know

00:46:05.220 look at Italy

00:46:07.560 you look at what's

00:46:08.460 happening in France

00:46:09.220 you look at all these countries

00:46:10.380 Holland

00:46:10.980 yeah

00:46:11.720 Austria

00:46:12.320 all of them

00:46:13.140 all of them

00:46:13.520 and a lot of it

00:46:14.660 is fuelled by

00:46:15.400 a breakdown of control

00:46:17.100 of immigration

00:46:17.700 and broken promises

00:46:19.780 and so they've got

00:46:20.780 to sort that out

00:46:21.360 of course they have

00:46:21.900 but if you ask me

00:46:22.780 what are the biggest concerns

00:46:23.940 for people in this country

00:46:24.960 it's actually not immigration

00:46:26.620 they're concerned about it

00:46:28.660 they think it's wrong

00:46:29.700 that we've got

00:46:30.380 you know

00:46:30.820 rather than tens of thousands

00:46:32.120 of people coming in

00:46:32.960 we have 700,000

00:46:34.780 when our public service

00:46:36.100 is already creaking

00:46:36.800 at the seams

00:46:37.460 you're not a racist

00:46:38.620 if you think

00:46:39.140 this is unsustainable

00:46:40.140 you're just a common sense

00:46:41.640 person right

00:46:42.440 but I think that

00:46:44.160 the really big issues

00:46:45.280 are the economy

00:46:46.080 and the NHS

00:46:47.480 and crime

00:46:48.860 and all three of those

00:46:50.920 the Tories have failed

00:46:51.920 spectacularly

00:46:52.740 housing as well

00:46:53.460 and housing

00:46:54.500 and housing

00:46:55.600 so I think it's going to be

00:46:56.980 look

00:46:57.240 it's going to be

00:46:57.920 very interesting

00:46:58.420 what Labour do

00:46:59.080 do they have

00:46:59.980 a grand vision

00:47:00.720 of the kind

00:47:01.200 you were just talking about

00:47:02.280 I don't think

00:47:03.400 I don't sense it

00:47:04.420 maybe they're keeping

00:47:05.860 their powder dry

00:47:06.560 for when they win power

00:47:07.540 because they will have

00:47:09.420 such a big majority

00:47:10.280 they can really do stuff

00:47:11.540 we'll have to wait and see

00:47:12.860 who are you voting for

00:47:14.200 I don't know

00:47:17.660 I honestly don't know

00:47:20.480 I voted for both parties

00:47:22.500 in the past

00:47:23.100 when it was a choice

00:47:24.440 of Miliband or Cameron

00:47:25.780 I voted for the

00:47:26.340 Animal Welfare Party

00:47:27.480 which my grandmother

00:47:28.440 at the time

00:47:28.880 was extremely pleased about

00:47:30.620 I you know

00:47:33.880 I

00:47:34.260 this is fascinating

00:47:35.640 Piers

00:47:35.940 because you spend

00:47:36.840 your life thinking

00:47:37.740 about this stuff

00:47:38.520 and you don't know

00:47:39.720 well I'm not a partisan

00:47:40.620 political animal

00:47:41.240 I know

00:47:41.560 so I'm not a Tory

00:47:42.680 I'm not a

00:47:44.220 neither are we

00:47:44.940 so the honest answer

00:47:47.140 is I don't know

00:47:48.040 I do believe

00:47:48.800 you have to vote

00:47:49.560 I will vote

00:47:50.780 but you know

00:47:51.800 given the choice

00:47:52.540 of the three

00:47:53.180 it's a really difficult

00:47:54.860 decision

00:47:55.840 for someone like me

00:47:56.960 to look at it

00:47:58.020 and go

00:47:58.280 well okay

00:47:59.180 the choice is

00:48:00.380 a party that's disintegrated

00:48:01.840 and has had 14 years

00:48:03.000 and I think has done

00:48:03.640 a pretty shoddy job

00:48:05.160 I certainly won't be

00:48:06.840 voting reform

00:48:07.740 because I think

00:48:08.160 it's all smoke and mirrors

00:48:09.140 and a reactionary party

00:48:10.840 to what is happening

00:48:11.540 with the Tories

00:48:12.160 and Keir Starmer

00:48:14.020 I look at him

00:48:14.660 and I think

00:48:14.940 I like you personally

00:48:16.120 always got on well with you

00:48:17.380 he's an Arsenal fan

00:48:18.140 big tick in my box

00:48:19.220 I look at him

00:48:20.900 but I think

00:48:21.380 are you

00:48:22.460 are you going to be able

00:48:23.280 to do anything

00:48:23.860 to really change my life

00:48:25.300 or are you actually

00:48:26.520 just going to take

00:48:27.240 all my money

00:48:27.800 and then squander it

00:48:29.940 and really not

00:48:30.660 help the people

00:48:31.480 you say are going

00:48:32.020 to help with it

00:48:32.640 so I've got to

00:48:33.720 I've got to think

00:48:34.460 about that

00:48:34.980 I want to see a bit

00:48:35.940 more of their

00:48:36.580 more forensic examination

00:48:38.420 of their policies

00:48:39.160 I don't think

00:48:39.580 we're going to hear

00:48:39.980 very much

00:48:40.580 so you know

00:48:41.900 I maybe

00:48:43.060 you know

00:48:43.500 I don't know

00:48:44.120 you sound like

00:48:45.200 you're leaning

00:48:45.540 Labour to me

00:48:46.260 well maybe

00:48:46.800 the animal

00:48:47.140 well I voted

00:48:48.080 for Thatcher

00:48:49.060 first times I got

00:48:50.180 I voted for Major

00:48:52.340 first time around

00:48:53.220 I voted for Blair

00:48:54.880 twice

00:48:55.760 but not after

00:48:56.480 the Iraq war

00:48:57.180 I would have voted

00:48:59.940 for Gordon Brown

00:49:00.700 I did not vote

00:49:04.180 for Cameron

00:49:04.700 certainly wouldn't

00:49:06.380 have voted for

00:49:07.040 Ed Miliband

00:49:07.760 or Jeremy Corbyn

00:49:09.020 I voted for

00:49:10.020 Boris Johnson

00:49:10.580 in 2019

00:49:11.080 purely because

00:49:12.260 as a Remainer

00:49:13.740 I was incensed

00:49:15.300 that he was

00:49:15.800 the only person

00:49:16.940 prepared to honour

00:49:18.120 the result of the

00:49:18.920 referendum on Europe

00:49:19.860 even though

00:49:20.380 it was the other side

00:49:21.320 I just thought

00:49:22.180 democracy demands

00:49:23.480 you accept the result

00:49:24.480 of a democratic

00:49:25.880 I was the same

00:49:26.700 referendum

00:49:27.240 right

00:49:27.520 so it was almost

00:49:28.280 a protest vote

00:49:29.240 and I wasn't going to

00:49:30.100 vote for Corbyn

00:49:30.760 in a million years

00:49:31.460 he would have

00:49:31.900 destroyed this country

00:49:32.840 so each time

00:49:34.360 I make a kind of

00:49:35.040 calculation

00:49:35.600 and this time

00:49:36.880 it's a difficult

00:49:37.500 calculation

00:49:38.180 but you know

00:49:39.120 I certainly look

00:49:39.860 I wouldn't feel ashamed

00:49:40.860 of voting for

00:49:41.880 Starla

00:49:42.840 there is one reason

00:49:44.040 Francis

00:49:44.620 let me just

00:49:45.020 one quick thing

00:49:46.020 you've spent a lot

00:49:46.980 of time on your show

00:49:47.760 talking about

00:49:48.520 the ludicrous

00:49:49.620 conversation about 0.99

00:49:50.960 trans women

00:49:52.180 that's another thing

00:49:54.040 that would stop me

00:49:54.720 in my tracks

00:49:55.520 so with Starla

00:49:56.860 he literally pretended

00:49:57.980 he didn't know

00:49:58.440 what a woman is 1.00

00:49:58.820 well he's moving

00:49:59.400 ever nearer

00:50:00.680 I mean when you start

00:50:01.600 saying that

00:50:01.980 Tony Blair told me

00:50:02.940 about the biology

00:50:03.820 really

00:50:04.620 Tony Blair had to

00:50:06.040 tell you what a woman 0.84

00:50:06.720 is

00:50:07.040 really

00:50:08.060 and I think we're up

00:50:09.100 to 99.9% of women 0.99

00:50:10.900 don't have penises now 1.00

00:50:11.880 so he's getting there 0.99

00:50:12.680 he's getting there

00:50:13.260 look

00:50:13.440 I think he is

00:50:15.000 cognizant that there

00:50:15.940 is a large section

00:50:16.860 of his party

00:50:17.460 who do believe

00:50:18.760 this guff 0.99

00:50:19.420 who've been sucked 0.94

00:50:20.620 into the gender culture war

00:50:22.660 and it's a real war

00:50:24.300 that really

00:50:24.720 as J.K. Rowling

00:50:25.900 has made very clear

00:50:27.100 to people

00:50:27.460 directly impacts

00:50:28.800 on women's lives

00:50:29.780 it means little girls

00:50:31.160 who have a dream

00:50:32.100 of competing

00:50:32.660 for their country

00:50:33.340 in the Olympics

00:50:34.340 may have that dream

00:50:35.500 shattered

00:50:35.900 because a 6 foot

00:50:36.700 4 inch

00:50:37.180 biological male

00:50:38.060 decides they would

00:50:38.980 like to compete

00:50:39.640 in women's sport

00:50:40.480 be it swimming

00:50:41.580 or running

00:50:42.220 or whatever it may be

00:50:43.120 that's clearly insane

00:50:44.660 I interviewed Lisa Nandy

00:50:46.380 on Good Morning Britain

00:50:47.780 a few years ago

00:50:48.400 and said to her

00:50:49.000 you know

00:50:50.060 we'll just

00:50:50.820 extrapolate this

00:50:51.880 then

00:50:52.040 so

00:50:52.300 would you be alright

00:50:53.440 with Floyd Mayweather

00:50:54.280 and Usain Bolt

00:50:55.080 identifying as women

00:50:56.180 and competing in the Olympics

00:50:57.140 against women 1.00

00:50:57.520 yes

00:50:58.320 came the answer

00:50:59.620 what

00:51:01.120 how have we got

00:51:02.860 to this place

00:51:03.540 so

00:51:04.560 Starmer having been

00:51:06.040 mad about it

00:51:07.460 has now

00:51:08.420 as he has with

00:51:09.320 a lot of stuff

00:51:10.040 moved

00:51:10.940 I don't mind

00:51:11.640 politicians doing that

00:51:12.680 I don't think

00:51:13.340 we should use a stick

00:51:14.180 to beat politicians 0.99

00:51:15.120 when they get more normal

00:51:16.780 or reach a better place

00:51:18.640 we should encourage

00:51:19.740 evolution of views

00:51:20.800 I don't like people

00:51:21.860 who are just

00:51:22.300 intransigent

00:51:23.360 sat in their little

00:51:24.260 in their little

00:51:25.160 but I don't think

00:51:25.700 that's what happened

00:51:26.360 this is the issue

00:51:27.180 if he had genuinely

00:51:28.860 evolved his views

00:51:30.120 I would salute him

00:51:31.820 to the rafters

00:51:32.540 as you were saying

00:51:33.080 that's not what's

00:51:34.040 happened here

00:51:34.480 he obviously knew

00:51:35.740 what a woman was 1.00

00:51:36.500 all along

00:51:37.240 yeah

00:51:37.440 and then lied about it

00:51:38.720 I don't disagree 0.95

00:51:39.460 look he's avoided me

00:51:40.600 Marishi Sunak's done

00:51:41.440 two big interviews with me

00:51:42.520 since I launched

00:51:44.360 Uncensored

00:51:44.820 Keir Starmer

00:51:45.860 despite a lot of times

00:51:47.120 telling me he'll do it

00:51:47.960 has never done it

00:51:48.940 and there's a reason

00:51:50.200 and it's partly

00:51:50.940 to do with this

00:51:51.740 he knows

00:51:52.640 my first question

00:51:53.680 would be

00:51:53.900 what is a woman 1.00

00:51:54.720 and until I just

00:51:56.560 get the answer

00:51:57.100 it's an adult

00:51:57.980 biological female 0.83

00:51:59.100 which is what a woman is 1.00

00:52:01.180 with no equivocation

00:52:02.920 he's going to get

00:52:04.360 fallout from that

00:52:05.260 so yeah

00:52:05.800 that's another thing

00:52:06.440 to think about

00:52:07.100 I've got a young daughter

00:52:09.600 who likes her sport

00:52:11.860 I don't want her

00:52:13.700 to under a Labour government

00:52:15.920 have her rights

00:52:16.940 being infringed

00:52:17.860 so are they going

00:52:19.240 to be infringed

00:52:19.980 or not

00:52:20.520 are we going to see

00:52:21.480 what happened to

00:52:22.180 Nicola Sturgeon

00:52:23.680 in Scotland 0.99

00:52:24.320 where she puts a male rapist 1.00

00:52:26.100 into a female prison 1.00

00:52:27.180 simply because he went

00:52:28.580 I'm a woman

00:52:29.560 so he could get somewhere 0.75

00:52:30.680 where he could attack 0.99

00:52:31.440 other women 0.98

00:52:32.020 I mean completely insane

00:52:34.480 and it cost her her job

00:52:35.580 and I look at Keir Starmer

00:52:38.400 and I think

00:52:38.760 okay

00:52:39.140 let's see

00:52:40.620 but I can't

00:52:42.520 make a vote

00:52:43.240 predicated on what

00:52:44.320 may happen

00:52:44.880 I have to vote

00:52:46.000 on the day

00:52:47.140 as to whether

00:52:48.220 I genuinely believe

00:52:49.520 this person

00:52:50.080 is going to represent

00:52:50.900 the kinds of things

00:52:51.780 that are important to me

00:52:52.560 and the gender thing 0.69

00:52:53.600 is very important to me

00:52:54.740 I think the protection

00:52:56.140 of women's rights

00:52:56.840 is one of the big

00:52:57.620 big issues

00:52:58.220 of our time

00:52:59.660 and on that

00:53:00.820 Rishi Sunak's been

00:53:01.880 rock solid

00:53:02.920 so you know

00:53:04.460 when it comes to

00:53:05.100 who do I cast my vote for

00:53:06.460 things like that

00:53:07.260 are going to play a part

00:53:08.200 but Piers

00:53:09.420 if he can't stand up

00:53:11.340 to the wackos

00:53:12.220 in the Labour Party

00:53:13.060 what's he going to do

00:53:13.960 with Putin

00:53:14.440 good question

00:53:15.760 it's a very good question

00:53:17.880 I agree

00:53:19.300 that to me

00:53:20.080 sorry

00:53:20.520 that to me

00:53:21.260 is spineless

00:53:22.180 I agree

00:53:22.600 if you can't stand up

00:53:24.040 and say a basic

00:53:25.000 biological fact

00:53:25.840 that we all know

00:53:26.540 to be true

00:53:27.060 because some people

00:53:28.560 who've spent too long

00:53:29.700 you know

00:53:30.200 at university

00:53:31.220 in gender studies class

00:53:32.340 are going to start crying

00:53:33.260 they're not

00:53:33.860 you're not fit to be leader

00:53:35.140 that to me

00:53:35.780 is not a leader

00:53:36.480 well he has moved a lot

00:53:37.840 and I think he'll continue

00:53:39.600 to move

00:53:40.200 because let's be honest 0.95

00:53:41.720 the woke worm

00:53:42.740 has turned dramatically

00:53:43.680 I think

00:53:44.340 right

00:53:44.960 it is just

00:53:45.540 people are just 1.00

00:53:46.280 seeing through this bullshit 1.00

00:53:47.280 and they're beginning to think 1.00

00:53:48.840 they're beginning to see

00:53:49.540 the impact on their own lives

00:53:51.440 and their own family's lives

00:53:52.980 you know

00:53:53.780 more and more kids

00:53:54.720 are losing out

00:53:55.700 in women's sport

00:53:56.560 because of

00:53:57.420 the trans athletes

00:53:58.660 dominating

00:53:59.600 whatever it may be

00:54:00.400 that they're

00:54:00.920 that they're competing in

00:54:02.200 and that's

00:54:03.160 you know

00:54:03.440 I want trans people

00:54:04.420 to be

00:54:04.760 to have fairness

00:54:05.820 and equality

00:54:06.580 like everybody else

00:54:07.860 I want to have the same

00:54:08.960 human rights as me

00:54:09.960 and you

00:54:10.500 and you

00:54:11.020 I genuinely do

00:54:12.700 I want nothing but good

00:54:14.400 for trans people

00:54:15.240 but not at the point

00:54:16.620 it erodes women's rights 1.00

00:54:17.920 shouldn't be difficult this

00:54:19.200 they shouldn't be allowed

00:54:20.860 to erode women's rights 1.00

00:54:22.260 and there should be

00:54:23.740 a new category set up

00:54:25.020 for trans athletes

00:54:26.880 it doesn't work

00:54:28.220 the other way

00:54:28.820 you know

00:54:29.580 with the trans men

00:54:30.680 you never see them

00:54:31.660 dominating men's sport

00:54:33.240 because of course

00:54:34.100 it doesn't

00:54:34.580 because they're women 1.00

00:54:35.140 there's a reason

00:54:36.540 that we separate

00:54:37.220 the sexes and the Olympics 0.95

00:54:38.240 if we didn't

00:54:39.580 no women 1.00

00:54:40.120 would win a gold medal

00:54:41.000 apart from potentially

00:54:42.240 I think

00:54:42.680 equestrian

00:54:43.720 possibly

00:54:44.380 an archery

00:54:45.540 or something

00:54:45.900 I've read some

00:54:46.420 statistic about it

00:54:47.240 but you know

00:54:48.060 why would you want

00:54:48.700 to do that

00:54:49.100 to women's sport

00:54:49.820 why would you want

00:54:50.320 to stop women winning 1.00

00:54:51.160 equality

00:54:51.940 that's the irony

00:54:55.100 because the very last

00:54:57.300 thing it's about

00:54:57.740 is equality

00:54:58.260 yeah

00:54:58.660 well you know

00:54:59.520 Piers

00:55:00.320 it's always a dynamite

00:55:01.740 interview when you come on

00:55:02.600 we could have

00:55:02.980 spent another hour

00:55:04.420 out here

00:55:04.800 the final question

00:55:05.580 is always the same

00:55:06.420 what's the one thing

00:55:07.000 we're not talking about

00:55:07.840 that we really should be

00:55:08.980 who Arsenal are going to

00:55:10.460 sign as a striker

00:55:11.180 because if you ask me

00:55:13.000 what am I spending

00:55:13.980 most of my time

00:55:14.820 thinking about

00:55:15.440 after two consecutive

00:55:16.620 seasons

00:55:17.120 where Arsenal should have

00:55:18.120 won the Premier League

00:55:18.900 and choked the first one

00:55:20.740 and last season

00:55:22.260 pretty much

00:55:23.120 didn't choke

00:55:23.680 but we just

00:55:24.700 didn't have that guy 0.52

00:55:26.280 I want a lethal

00:55:27.420 25 a season

00:55:29.200 striker

00:55:30.260 and that is honestly

00:55:31.760 the thing that is

00:55:32.520 dominating my mind

00:55:33.400 and I'm hopeful

00:55:34.700 that if Keir Starmer

00:55:36.320 wins as an Arsenal

00:55:37.380 fanatic like me

00:55:38.520 that he will put

00:55:39.660 a lot of pressure

00:55:40.300 on Mikel Arteta

00:55:41.180 because a happy Arsenal

00:55:43.400 is a happy Prime Minister

00:55:45.060 right

00:55:45.860 good to know

00:55:46.380 you're focusing

00:55:48.220 on the biggest

00:55:48.840 things

00:55:49.160 thanks for coming

00:55:51.500 back on mate

00:55:51.960 it's a pleasure

00:55:52.580 actually on a serious

00:55:54.140 point

00:55:54.460 on that

00:55:55.960 I would like

00:55:58.080 people to examine

00:55:59.300 more

00:56:00.820 what Nigel Farage

00:56:02.860 has said about Putin

00:56:04.140 how much money

00:56:05.720 he's taken

00:56:06.280 from Russia today

00:56:07.360 and what he genuinely

00:56:09.960 believes about things

00:56:11.220 like the Ukraine war

00:56:12.220 and just ask yourself

00:56:13.500 one question

00:56:14.200 do I think

00:56:15.760 that guy's the right

00:56:16.560 guy to defend

00:56:17.200 this country

00:56:17.740 and if you do

00:56:20.780 have a lobotomy

00:56:22.100 cheers chaps 1.00

00:56:23.920 ha ha ha

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TRIGGERnometry - June 30, 2024

Piers Morgan： Israel⧸Palestine, Farage & Who Gets My Vote

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