TRIGGERnometry - Police Whistleblower Shares Horrific Story - Maggie Oliver

00:00:00.840 I spent eight months interviewing those children, and they named and identified multiple men.

00:00:10.160 Now, she was a child who had been 12.

00:00:14.120 She had a statement of special educational needs.

00:00:16.820 She was in a special school.

00:00:18.700 She was being picked up at the school gates by her abusers.

00:00:23.320 We had a fetus.

00:00:25.340 We had DNA that proved who had got her pregnant.

00:00:28.940 He was a 40-year-old man married with three children of his own.

00:00:33.640 That man was never charged with rape.

00:00:36.260 Why not?

00:00:36.920 Because they took the easy option and decided to charge him with sexual activity with a child.

00:00:43.440 He was out of prison in less than three years.

00:00:47.140 How is it possible that in modern Britain, with all of that evidence that you're talking about,

00:00:53.120 DNA, fetus, statements, etc.,

00:00:57.360 somebody who's just there to be prosecuted?

00:01:02.320 You say they took the easy option.

00:01:04.760 Why?

00:01:05.240 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:18.080 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:19.440 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:01:20.520 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:25.740 Our brilliant guest today is a police whistleblower who resigned in protest of the grooming gang scandal

00:01:30.580 and the author of this book, Survivors.

00:01:32.480 Maggie Oliver, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:34.320 Delighted to be here.

00:01:35.340 Thank you so much for coming on.

00:01:36.700 It's been a while since we've been trying to get you on.

00:01:38.900 A lot of people who watched our interviews with Dr. Ella Hill, watched our interviews with Samantha Smith,

00:01:44.560 they've been saying to us for a long time, we should get you on.

00:01:47.540 You're here now.

00:01:48.560 Thanks for coming.

00:01:49.580 Tell everybody who are you.

00:01:50.700 How are you where you are?

00:01:52.240 What's been your journey through life? 0.98

00:01:54.800 Well, I've had a long journey because, you know, I'm a bit of an old bugger now.

00:02:00.320 But that means that I've lived a lot of chapters of my life.

00:02:03.920 And I think I always say that I'm just an ordinary woman.

00:02:08.040 I've got four kids.

00:02:09.340 I was married to the love of my life who unfortunately died in his 40s from bowel cancer.

00:02:15.260 I went back to university at 37 because I wanted to be a teacher, actually.

00:02:22.460 And then I thought, well, if I don't get into teaching, what can I do?

00:02:25.300 I thought, I know, I'll join the police.

00:02:27.800 Same thing, really, Maggie.

00:02:29.740 I just get to, I got to see them a little earlier.

00:02:31.960 The police is a lot less dangerous nowadays, mate.

00:02:35.620 Yeah, so I kind of fell into it.

00:02:37.760 I got in, I was 41.

00:02:39.420 And I went in originally to do child protection,

00:02:41.820 but very quickly realised that I would have World War III every day.

00:02:46.960 When I was told by another social worker that they were working with the family,

00:02:50.320 I couldn't go home and forget about it.

00:02:52.260 So I reset my direction and I went into serious crime.

00:02:57.080 So I became a detective.

00:02:58.760 I worked in the major incident team.

00:03:00.600 I did witness protection, gang-related murders.

00:03:04.800 And then I was kind of headhunted for the first grooming gang job that I was taken on to in 2004.

00:03:16.500 But, you know, I'd had a very full life before I joined the police.

00:03:19.980 So very varied background, really.

00:03:23.660 But always driven by a sense of right and wrong, you know, really simple principles, really.

00:03:32.260 And I believe that when I joined the job, I really was going to do what I promised to do,

00:03:37.900 which was uphold the law, protect the vulnerable, uphold fundamental human rights.

00:03:45.000 And, you know, I look back now and I think, God, how naive was I?

00:03:52.460 But I'm not naive anymore.

00:03:54.120 No, I don't imagine you are.

00:03:55.560 No, I'm not.

00:03:55.920 So let's talk about that journey from being quite naive to where you are now.

00:04:00.940 So you are headhunted to investigate a grooming gang.

00:04:04.760 Yeah.

00:04:05.000 How do you get from that to sitting here where you've resigned from the police,

00:04:09.200 having attempted to bring light to the issue, being fobbed off, ignored, etc.?

00:04:13.680 Tell us about all that.

00:04:15.560 Well, that job that I was first recruited for was called Operation Augusta.

00:04:21.340 And it was 2004.

00:04:23.240 And a little girl who was 15, called Victoria Agolia, had died actually in Rochdale.

00:04:33.340 She'd been horrendously groomed and sexually abused.

00:04:37.040 She was living in care.

00:04:38.640 And one of her abusers had given her an overdose of drugs, which led to her death, her death.

00:04:43.260 Alongside that, at exactly the same time, a documentary team were making a documentary in Keithley in South Yorkshire.

00:04:52.340 And that documentary was called Edge of the City.

00:04:56.940 And they had uncovered a problem in Keithley where young, vulnerable, working class white girls were being groomed, 0.97

00:05:07.280 sexually abused and exploited by gangs of predominantly Pakistani men. 0.62

00:05:11.300 And the powers that be within the police, I now know, feared that when that documentary went out, there would be a public outcry. 0.89

00:05:23.120 And at the same time, Victoria had died in Manchester.

00:05:26.400 So, with hindsight, I know that GMP, Greater Manchester Police, put together a small team of officers to kind of derail the criticism that we were doing nothing about that case.

00:05:40.040 But the programme went out and there wasn't the public outcry that was expected.

00:05:45.920 And so, Greater Manchester Police, in their wisdom, deliberately and intentionally shut down that job.

00:05:52.800 The official reasoning is now, from the independent review in 2020, that the Chief Constable, the Assistant Chief Constable's Head of Crime and GMP,

00:06:04.820 made the conscious and deliberate decision that they would close down that job because they would not put resources into it.

00:06:11.980 Now, when they closed it down, Constantine, we had over 100 paedophiles on the database that we knew were abusing children.

00:06:20.360 We had about three dozen children, most of whom were living in care, who were being raped on a daily basis.

00:06:28.280 That happened at exactly the time that my husband died of terminal bowel cancer.

00:06:33.280 I went off work for a couple of months to nurse him in his last weeks.

00:06:38.680 When I came back to work, that job had died a death.

00:06:43.040 So, Maggie, sorry to interrupt.

00:06:44.480 And it's complicated, I know.

00:06:45.900 It's not that it's complicated, it's hard to believe, frankly.

00:06:50.000 What you're saying is, the police, the senior police officers, created an investigation in order to deflect attention from failings.

00:07:03.740 Yes.

00:07:04.280 And then when the failings went public and didn't generate a backlash,

00:07:08.780 they shut down the investigation that they created to cover up for that.

00:07:12.540 Closed it in his tracks.

00:07:13.540 Even though you knew about hundreds of paedophiles who were abusing children.

00:07:17.460 They abandoned all those young children to their abuse.

00:07:22.820 And furthermore, they allowed those hundred paedophiles and more to continue to abuse for another 15 years.

00:07:31.300 And it's really only because I began to, when I resigned, which is further down the road, that I never forgot those children.

00:07:39.800 And pretty much every interview I do, I refer to Victoria and I refer to those children.

00:07:45.280 Because that is not why I joined the police.

00:07:48.040 You know, the police are there to prosecute paedophiles.

00:07:50.760 You don't just suddenly decide that these kids don't matter.

00:07:54.400 You don't do it.

00:07:55.540 In my book, that's not why I joined the police.

00:07:57.600 But I couldn't get any answers.

00:08:00.160 I was told there was no evidence.

00:08:01.800 Well, I know that was wrong because I was on that job.

00:08:04.380 I knew who those kids were.

00:08:06.800 And it's just wrong.

00:08:09.340 But I was pretty powerless to do anything.

00:08:11.800 You know, I'd just lost my husband.

00:08:13.500 I've got four children.

00:08:15.180 I was a single parent.

00:08:16.440 And I didn't have a single piece of paper to prove what I was saying.

00:08:20.360 And in fact, none of those rapes at that point had been recorded.

00:08:24.060 So on paper, it didn't exist, but it did exist.

00:08:28.960 And now, 20 years later, Andy Burnham in Manchester heard me like rabbiting on on the radio.

00:08:37.160 And he put together an independent review.

00:08:39.860 And the review team spent three years looking at that job.

00:08:45.060 And the official findings were, yes, there was a job.

00:08:48.640 Yes, there were 100 paedophiles.

00:08:50.640 Yes, there were three dozen children.

00:08:52.140 And GMP have now been forced to reopen that case 20 years too late.

00:08:57.740 Because those men, you think how many other children those men have prosecuted.

00:09:03.420 So when I say I am not naive, I am not naive because they deliberately did that.

00:09:09.520 So I don't trust them.

00:09:11.120 There is a bigger agenda here.

00:09:13.320 And those kids don't matter.

00:09:15.040 And I always say, if those children had belonged to the chief constable or Boris Johnson or Rishi Sunak,

00:09:22.440 they would have prosecuted those men with every breath in their body.

00:09:27.480 But those kids don't have anybody fighting their corner.

00:09:30.600 You know, often they come from troubled backgrounds or they live in care.

00:09:33.680 And you know what?

00:09:34.380 It is just unforgivable.

00:09:35.820 And, you know, I'm 20 years on from it. 0.99

00:09:39.220 And I have been through a lot of shit in those 20 years. 0.98

00:09:42.540 And I have thought I would go to prison for speaking the truth. 0.98

00:09:45.420 Because that's what GMP said to me when I said I was going public.

00:09:49.080 But the truth is the truth.

00:09:51.380 And police officers, this is not about individual police officers.

00:09:55.040 Because every organisation has good and bad.

00:09:58.780 I was a good police officer and I did my absolute best.

00:10:02.260 The people who are the bad ones are those at the top who made the decision to close that job down.

00:10:07.000 It wasn't about me.

00:10:08.100 It wasn't about the officers on that job.

00:10:10.380 So when, like today, we have them saying,

00:10:12.560 we're going to, you know, deal with police officers like Carrick and...

00:10:18.560 Wayne Cousins.

00:10:19.720 And Wayne Cousins and that.

00:10:20.960 Yeah, they're bad apples.

00:10:22.220 But there's a lot of good apples in that box.

00:10:24.000 And for me, the book stops at the top.

00:10:26.120 So when the chief constable and assistant chief constables

00:10:29.180 make a deliberate decision to close a job down like that,

00:10:32.300 they should be in prison, I'm afraid.

00:10:34.480 They are guilty of misconduct in a public office.

00:10:37.680 And, you know, I started my charity, the Maggie Oliver Foundation.

00:10:40.840 That isn't funded by the government or by public bodies.

00:10:44.160 It's ordinary, decent human beings who believe, like I do,

00:10:48.480 that children like that deserve to have a voice.

00:10:51.260 That they deserve to be protected.

00:10:52.980 That the police are there to prosecute the offenders.

00:10:56.660 They are the bad guys, not the kids.

00:10:59.160 So I'm sorry to go on.

00:11:00.760 But it still bothers me today that that can happen and still is happening

00:11:05.860 because there are grooming gangs operating today.

00:11:08.740 This is not a historical problem.

00:11:10.600 And in the charity, we are supporting and fighting for victims today

00:11:16.200 who are still being silenced, who are still having the door slammed in the face.

00:11:21.300 We've currently got cases in Hull, in Barrow, in Oldham, in Rochdale, in South Wales.

00:11:31.400 So, you know, this is not historical.

00:11:34.480 And the police will have you believe it is historical, that now things are a lot better.

00:11:41.360 I think things are better in that there is now awareness.

00:11:46.800 But the authorities are still failing massively.

00:11:50.000 The police now are basically not fit for purpose.

00:11:53.440 You know, they're under-resourced.

00:11:55.040 They're not trained effectively.

00:11:57.160 They're a political animal in many respects.

00:12:01.160 So there's still a lot of work to do.

00:12:04.240 What does that mean, Maggie?

00:12:05.100 They're a political animal.

00:12:07.320 I don't think they're independent anymore.

00:12:10.480 You know, there is no accountability.

00:12:16.280 When I'm talking about, I was talking about 2005,

00:12:21.440 but I know, for instance, that I'm not a party political person in any way.

00:12:27.620 So, you know, my distaste, my distrust of the establishment goes to all political parties.

00:12:39.500 Because I know in 2008, for instance, that the government at the time were Labour.

00:12:45.560 And I know that the Home Office sent out a circular to all police forces,

00:12:50.700 saying that they should not investigate these kinds of crimes

00:12:54.220 because they feared a backlash.

00:12:57.620 That they didn't want to stir up Islamophobia.

00:13:00.780 Another thing that I will say, which I didn't know at the time,

00:13:04.580 on Augusta, the very last entry on our database for that job

00:13:09.980 was on the night of the 6th of July 2005.

00:13:15.560 Now, my husband died on the 5th.

00:13:18.000 On the morning of the 7th, we had the London bombings.

00:13:20.660 Reports are just coming in of an explosion at Liverpool Street Station here in London.

00:13:27.940 On that hall gate, I can confirm a bomb damage to the train.

00:13:32.460 One carriage completely wiped out.

00:13:34.800 At least nine people very seriously injured and trapped.

00:13:37.800 Two confirmed totalities.

00:13:39.700 We're now also hearing that there have been further incidents at Russell Square.

00:13:43.640 There are two trains stuck in tunnels at Edgware Road,

00:13:55.400 and it's not known if they've collided or whether passengers remain on board.

00:14:01.000 Everyone thought they were going to die.

00:14:03.780 People started saying prayers, praying to God, panicking,

00:14:09.580 breaking the carriage windows with the bare hands,

00:14:12.460 anything to get oxygen into the carriage.

00:14:15.120 We're now hearing reports that a bus has been ripped apart

00:14:21.560 in an explosion in central London.

00:14:25.480 One man has actually shown myself some footage that he recorded on his mobile phone

00:14:30.680 of a bus exploding a few streets away, just near to Houston Station.

00:14:35.900 People lying on the floor.

00:14:38.660 There was not another entry went on that database after that day.

00:14:42.180 Now, you know, go figure.

00:14:45.460 We had a full major investigation team working on that job

00:14:49.360 on the night of the 6th of July.

00:14:52.040 On the morning of the 7th, we had all the London bombings.

00:14:55.660 We had a fear of Islamophobia.

00:14:58.240 They closed down Operation Augusta.

00:15:00.420 I don't believe that was a coincidence. 0.96

00:15:03.360 But the losers in all this are the children.

00:15:06.680 And sometimes the truth hurts.

00:15:09.200 But, you know, that is the truth.

00:15:12.180 And until somebody tells me differently, that is what I will believe.

00:15:16.120 But I have to caveat that, really, by saying that I know that there have been

00:15:23.400 racial elements to this particular kind of sexual abuse.

00:15:27.760 And I don't think you can ignore that, that the vast majority of these victims, in these

00:15:35.000 cases, are young, white, working class children.

00:15:40.980 And the vast majority of the offenders are Pakistani Muslim men. 0.82

00:15:46.480 That is a fact. 0.75

00:15:47.900 And the statistics won't show that.

00:15:50.300 But that's because the statistics were never gathered by the authorities, because they didn't

00:15:55.520 want those statistics.

00:15:56.580 But what I always say is that, for me, this is about child protection.

00:16:01.400 And I don't care if it's Jeffrey Epstein, or a priest in the Catholic Church, or Harvey

00:16:08.000 Weinstein, or your uncle, or your next-door neighbour. 0.96

00:16:11.880 For me, raping a child is against the law.

00:16:15.120 And in this country, the law is there to prosecute the bad guys.

00:16:19.120 And there is nobody worse in my book than a child abuser, because every child deserves

00:16:25.020 to have a life.

00:16:26.740 And when they don't have a family or somebody like me protecting them, then that is the duty

00:16:32.960 of the state to step in.

00:16:35.500 Social services, the police, to make sure they're protected.

00:16:38.900 And what I saw was the absolute opposite of that.

00:16:41.540 And it goes against every single thing that I believe in.

00:16:45.220 So, in the end, I had no choice other than to say what I believed to be the truth.

00:16:52.580 Because after Augusta, when it closed down, I went back to my normal day job, which was

00:17:10.080 in major crime, went back to gang jobs, and, you know, murders, and shootings, and I was

00:17:17.160 also a family liaison officer.

00:17:19.240 And then, for my sins, in 2010, I was approached and asked to join another job in Rochdale, which

00:17:28.180 became known as Operation Span.

00:17:31.760 And at first, I said, you know, thank you, but no thanks, you can stick your job.

00:17:37.220 I ain't interested.

00:17:38.160 I've been there, I've got the T-shirt, and I am not going down that road again.

00:17:42.800 But I was given cast-iron guarantees, I was given policy documents and paperwork to say

00:17:49.920 there would not be a repeat of Operation Augusta.

00:17:53.800 So, I went on that job, and lo and behold, I saw a repeat.

00:17:58.800 So, what happened with Operation Span?

00:18:01.780 I was asked to join Op Span.

00:18:04.260 And the abuse had long finished on that job.

00:18:09.160 This was 2010.

00:18:10.980 The abuse had finished in 2008, but nothing had happened.

00:18:14.360 And Greater Manchester Police decided that, well, what happened really was there was a routine

00:18:25.620 property review within GMP.

00:18:28.520 And in that property review, an officer discovered actually a fetus in the police property system.

00:18:36.060 And that fetus had just sat there for two years.

00:18:41.620 It opened up a can of worms.

00:18:44.460 And it turned out that the fetus had been seized from a young girl who became known as Ruby in the drama Three Girls that I worked on. 0.83

00:18:54.720 There's no such thing as a child prostitute. 1.00

00:18:59.540 What there is, is a child who's been abused. 0.70

00:19:02.360 The nine men have been released on bail.

00:19:04.660 How many victims?

00:19:05.680 47.

00:19:06.560 And when they went to the police, nothing was done about it.

00:19:08.660 No one bothered.

00:19:10.000 What do you think that does to a kid?

00:19:11.800 We treat them as human beings, and we say we're sorry.

00:19:15.240 What is the point if a jury is not going to believe she's telling the truth?

00:19:18.840 I watched her interviews, and I believed her.

00:19:20.840 Ruby had been groomed, sexually abused as a 12-year-old, then a 13-year-old. 0.91

00:19:30.920 She was made pregnant when she was just 13 by one of the gang of abusers.

00:19:36.920 Police seized that fetus without her knowledge, without her consent, without her mum knowing,

00:19:42.060 and it had been put into a police property system where it had sat for two years.

00:19:48.120 Nothing had been done with it.

00:19:49.260 So when the property review was done, that fetus was found, and they decided that they had

00:19:55.920 to do something about this.

00:19:57.960 So I was brought in onto that job.

00:20:01.960 We had dozens of men that we knew were abusing children in and around Rochdale, also in Oldham.

00:20:11.360 I was asked to bring that young girl on board as a victim.

00:20:17.200 By this time, she was 14, I think. 0.51

00:20:20.700 I was asked to also bring on board her sister, who had also been horrendously groomed and sexually abused by dozens of men.

00:20:30.740 But two years before, she had been arrested on suspicion of being a madam at the age of 15. 0.98

00:20:39.140 I mean, people will have to read my book to really understand the complexities.

00:20:45.780 I'm just trying to simplify it.

00:20:47.480 Yeah.

00:20:47.840 But I was told at that point that she should never have been arrested, which she absolutely should not have.

00:20:55.780 that I was being asked to bring those two children and their family and other children potentially on board to tell us what had happened

00:21:06.640 and to prosecute this gang of paedophiles.

00:21:10.120 So I told them to, I'm not interested, because the damage to me from Augusta has never left me, really.

00:21:19.780 In fact, I was talking to one of those girls two days ago from Augusta, so I'm still in touch with some of them.

00:21:27.520 But I was told that the most senior lawyer in the CPS had scrutinised the evidence from 2008.

00:21:35.380 And the young girl, Amber, in the drama, never should have been arrested.

00:21:43.660 She was officially categorised as a victim.

00:21:47.520 And I was given the green light to go ahead and go and interview those two children.

00:21:53.740 I spent eight months interviewing those children.

00:21:56.980 And they named and identified multiple men.

00:22:02.440 Ruby gave her consent, as did her mum, for us to use the DNA that proved who had got her pregnant.

00:22:11.520 Now, she was a child who had been 12, maybe even 11, but 12, to my knowledge, when the abuse began.

00:22:21.380 She had a statement of special educational needs.

00:22:24.080 She was in a special school.

00:22:25.960 She was being picked up at the school gates by her abusers.

00:22:29.620 Because we had a fetus, we had DNA that proved who had got her pregnant.

00:22:36.740 He was a 40-year-old man married with three children of his own.

00:22:41.100 Can you believe that even that man was never charged with rape?

00:22:46.040 Why not?

00:22:47.120 Because they took the easy option and decided to charge him with sexual activity with a child.

00:22:53.080 He was allowed to go back to Rochdale, where he still lives, to walk around where he bumped into her in the local Asda, walking around the end of an aisle.

00:23:15.000 She went into a total meltdown, ran out of the shop and rang me in floods of panic, saying he was called Billy, that was his street name.

00:23:25.800 His real name is Adil Khan and his name is in the public arena because he was prosecuted and convicted.

00:23:33.720 But he was out of prison in less time than you get for parking on double yellow lines sometimes. 0.98

00:23:39.540 So I was fucking fuming. 0.98

00:23:44.820 Sorry. 0.97

00:23:45.700 Sorry.

00:23:46.300 No, no, no, no, no, no.

00:23:47.420 I'm trying to pick the big thing about...

00:23:49.220 You're doing a great job.

00:23:50.140 I just want to...

00:23:51.640 There'll be people watching this going, what the hell is she talking about? 0.54

00:23:54.960 How is it possible that in modern Britain, with all of that evidence that you're talking about, DNA, fetus, statements, etc., somebody who's just there to be prosecuted?

00:24:10.520 I understand sometimes these cases are complicated and you can't get the right information and all of that.

00:24:16.540 But in this case, it doesn't seem to have been the case.

00:24:18.640 Why?

00:24:19.160 You say they took the easy option.

00:24:21.200 Why?

00:24:21.820 Why did they take the easy option?

00:24:23.220 Because if she had been 12, there is absolutely no defence.

00:24:31.760 It's statutory rape. 1.00

00:24:33.320 Yeah.

00:24:33.760 Yeah.

00:24:34.760 Because she was just 13, because the fetus and the number of weeks pregnant she was, we knew exactly when she'd got pregnant.

00:24:43.180 Because she was just 13, that would have meant that they would have had to prove that she did not consent to her rape.

00:24:51.980 In my book, a 13-year-old child with special needs cannot consent.

00:24:57.060 In most people's books, I would argue.

00:24:58.800 But the CPS will say, well, it's a lot easier to prove.

00:25:02.880 They don't have to prove anything then, because there's a fetus, she was pregnant, we knew who he was.

00:25:09.040 So he had had sexual activity with that child.

00:25:11.840 They didn't want to go to a trial where they would have to prove that she could not consent.

00:25:17.560 So they took the easy option.

00:25:19.380 Is that a money thing, Maggie?

00:25:21.000 Is it a money thing?

00:25:21.560 It's a resources and a money thing.

00:25:23.080 Yeah.

00:25:23.340 And it's lazy.

00:25:24.680 Yeah.

00:25:25.080 It's lazy.

00:25:25.940 And it's not right.

00:25:28.000 No.

00:25:28.380 No.

00:25:28.720 It's not right.

00:25:29.480 And if that was my daughter, I would want that man prosecuting for rape, because she was not able to give consent. 1.00

00:25:35.720 She was drunk every time she had sex. 0.98

00:25:39.880 We had a fetus, as I keep saying.

00:25:42.480 So for me, that decision was made for resources and because they couldn't be asked, basically.

00:25:48.040 But that doesn't make it right.

00:25:49.820 It's wrong.

00:25:50.800 In relation to the other young girl, the other child, who I had been given promises that if I brought her on board,

00:25:59.760 that I would be allowed to hold her hand, both their hands, right through to trial.

00:26:04.640 Eight months down the road, again, like Augusta, the powers that be, so chief constables, gold commanders, people in CPS,

00:26:18.040 sat down and they made a policy decision that they were going to build a case around one child.

00:26:24.960 And whilst I accept that, because I know that we can't always bring everybody into one trial, it becomes too complex,

00:26:31.520 I do not accept that we cherry pick which rapists we prosecute and which children we support as victims.

00:26:40.720 If they have given us evidence and they have spent months identifying their abusers and the top lawyer in the CPS has identified them as a victim,

00:26:51.380 I'm sorry, you don't change your mind eight months down the road.

00:26:54.940 And that's exactly what GMP did again.

00:26:57.640 They changed their mind.

00:26:59.460 And if anybody wants to watch the drama Three Girl, it is a drama.

00:27:04.360 It does not go nearly far enough.

00:27:06.840 The police and the CPS get off very lightly.

00:27:10.220 Again, I'd say read my book.

00:27:11.680 But what happened about eight or nine months down the road, after these kids had unburdened their souls to me,

00:27:19.140 I spent every day with them, really, they couldn't have done more to help the police.

00:27:24.980 And eight months down the road, Friday afternoon, I just get, you know, my boss comes up to me and says,

00:27:32.520 Oh, Maggie, can I have a word?

00:27:35.500 Yeah, of course you can.

00:27:36.440 Well, this girl had just identified ten of her abusers in an ID parade.

00:27:41.980 She'd fell apart, but she'd done it because she didn't want the same thing to happen to other children.

00:27:49.360 My boss said to me, I just want you to know we've made a decision.

00:27:55.220 We're no longer going to use Amber.

00:27:59.140 But don't get upset.

00:28:00.820 We are going to use Ruby.

00:28:03.240 Ruby, and I just felt, I just, I just couldn't, you know what, I would have, I felt like murdering somebody.

00:28:13.840 And I just picked my bag up and I said, and this scene in the drama is actually pretty true.

00:28:19.880 I just said, well, you know what, I am not going to use anybody.

00:28:24.720 It is not right.

00:28:25.540 And I was out of there and, and I couldn't believe that I was seeing a repeat again of what I'd seen previously.

00:28:35.400 Hey, Konstantin, do you like being healthy?

00:28:38.460 Of course.

00:28:39.380 In my country, we judge men's health by his ability to wrestle bear. 0.95

00:28:43.520 In London, I have since found out this has very different meaning.

00:28:47.300 We've all had a night that's got out of hand.

00:28:49.860 We will speak no more of this.

00:28:53.800 The secret will be buried with my ancestors.

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00:30:25.760 Yes, check it out and become real men like me.

00:30:30.180 Well, I mean, so again, just let me get this clear.

00:30:35.240 So you had this girl, this vulnerable young girl who had been raped multiple times,

00:30:39.700 who had identified her abusers.

00:30:43.720 This, I'm not a legal expert, I assume is pretty rock-solid evidence

00:30:48.060 and there was more evidence to back up her claims.

00:30:51.020 And they said they're not going to use her.

00:30:54.040 Did he give an explanation?

00:30:56.180 They couldn't be asked.

00:30:57.240 They built a case around one girl. 0.92

00:31:00.460 And if you're a police officer, you know, there are,

00:31:03.480 and these, Amber and the girl they built the case around had actually fallen out.

00:31:09.020 So the two of them were at loggerheads.

00:31:11.960 So I could accept that they would run them as two separate trials.

00:31:17.800 What I would never accept is that they cherry-pick and, you know, the victim.

00:31:22.400 And actually, this goes to the heart of a great deal that goes on

00:31:25.840 when we're talking about rape prosecutions,

00:31:29.660 that a judgment is often made of the victim.

00:31:33.280 You know, she was drunk.

00:31:34.480 She's worn a short skirt.

00:31:36.200 She was asking for it.

00:31:38.080 That isn't what rape is. 1.00

00:31:40.300 Rape is about consent. 1.00

00:31:42.100 And here we had a child of 14 or 15 when the abuse was happening.

00:31:47.720 She had come from a family where her brother had died.

00:31:51.080 She'd actually found him dead.

00:31:53.680 Her mum had had a nervous breakdown.

00:31:55.480 She'd pretty much brought up her little sister on her own.

00:32:00.720 Her brother had been abused in the children's home

00:32:03.300 where Cyril Smith was operating.

00:32:05.840 She had had a life from hell.

00:32:07.940 And yet, even after all that, she had put her trust in me

00:32:12.380 because I had been assured by my supervisors,

00:32:16.200 I had been headhunted to do that job with the direction of the head lawyer in the CPS.

00:32:24.480 You don't get more powerful than that, do you?

00:32:30.200 You know, if somebody, if the head lawyer in the CPS

00:32:33.360 and the assistant chief constable gives their word

00:32:37.380 that if you tell us what's happened to you, we will prosecute your rapist,

00:32:41.340 you believe that.

00:32:43.560 I certainly did at that point.

00:32:45.600 And yet, here I was for the second time seeing the same thing happening.

00:32:50.140 Now, I'm going to fill in the bits after that,

00:32:53.940 but I think it's worth saying that I have been fighting for Amber and Ruby

00:32:58.440 for 10 years now.

00:33:00.340 And last April, after 10 years, I took those two children,

00:33:05.100 who were no longer children, plus another victim,

00:33:08.120 to meet the new chief constable of Greater Manchester Police.

00:33:12.480 He apologised to them.

00:33:14.800 He gave all of them a letter of apology.

00:33:17.860 And to Amber, he gave an apology and an assurance

00:33:21.520 that all her rapes have now been crimed,

00:33:24.820 that she is recognised as a victim.

00:33:27.320 And yet, when she was dropped from that job in 2012,

00:33:32.440 just before the trial,

00:33:34.000 the barrister realised that without her evidence,

00:33:36.920 they could not run that trial

00:33:38.900 because her evidence was central to the case.

00:33:43.260 So, she was no longer a victim or a witness,

00:33:47.060 and it was too late to bring her on board for that.

00:33:50.740 The only other way of introducing her evidence

00:33:54.100 into a court of law was if she was an offender.

00:33:58.020 So, they secretly added her to the indictment

00:34:02.120 as one of the gang of abusers.

00:34:04.360 She did not know.

00:34:06.760 She did not have any...

00:34:09.140 She was not arrested.

00:34:10.620 She was not cautioned.

00:34:12.140 She had no legal representation.

00:34:14.460 She didn't know until two years later,

00:34:16.660 when I resigned from the police

00:34:18.140 and went and told her what had been said about her in court.

00:34:22.420 And as a result of what was said about her in court,

00:34:26.420 social services were trying to take her children away from her

00:34:29.860 by saying she was a paedophile.

00:34:32.180 Now, you're looking shocked.

00:34:34.360 I am still shocked to this day that that is possible in the UK

00:34:38.460 because if you can be accused of being a murderer or a paedophile

00:34:44.600 and you are not made aware,

00:34:47.000 you are not given an opportunity to defend yourself,

00:34:49.600 that, for me, goes against every single thing that I believed happened.

00:34:57.140 But that, I swear on my children's life,

00:35:00.480 that that is exactly what has happened in this case.

00:35:02.740 And I am trying to raise awareness that this goes on in the UK today.

00:35:09.140 And furthermore, the CPS still are saying

00:35:12.420 that they were justified in making that decision

00:35:15.040 and that they would do it again if it was convenient.

00:35:17.700 What?

00:35:18.860 Yep, they will still not acknowledge that that was wrong.

00:35:22.120 And I am fighting still because, to me, it goes against everything.

00:35:28.140 Even the Yorkshire Ripper is entitled to a defence.

00:35:32.100 This young girl was secretly described as a paedophile.

00:35:36.420 She is not.

00:35:37.300 She was a victim of a grooming gang. 0.97

00:35:39.060 And so this injustice still drives me forward

00:35:42.660 because these are the cases that I do know.

00:35:45.820 That's why the foundation is so important

00:35:48.480 because victims and survivors come to us today

00:35:51.940 telling us of current failures, of current injustices,

00:35:57.120 and we fight for them within the system.

00:36:00.840 So it's still a massive problem.

00:36:04.200 But, you know, it shocked me.

00:36:07.680 And it still shocks me.

00:36:09.200 And actually, it makes me feel, I think I was exploited as well, if I'm honest.

00:36:20.180 You know, I joined the police to do good.

00:36:22.280 And yet they are the worst things that I have ever seen anybody do to a vulnerable person.

00:36:30.540 And that was done with the full knowledge and backing and authority

00:36:34.260 of chief constables and the CPS.

00:36:37.480 And that's kind of what keeps me going, really.

00:36:40.780 Maggie, we've talked about the cases, which are obviously awful.

00:36:44.200 And that case is so unbelievably shocking.

00:36:47.280 I couldn't even say miscarriage.

00:36:48.960 I don't even have the words to describe what they did to that poor woman.

00:36:53.660 I mean, it's awful.

00:36:55.400 But if we take, look at the big picture,

00:36:58.400 do we know roughly how many girls were abused,

00:37:00.880 how many girls were raped, how many men were involved?

00:37:03.260 Do we have any of those types of figures?

00:37:04.960 No, because the authorities always refused to gather the statistics around these kinds of cases.

00:37:17.860 And I believe that's because they never wanted to gather them.

00:37:21.820 You know, when you see reports, they always report that abuse in the family

00:37:28.340 is far greater than this kind of abuse.

00:37:32.000 And I actually wouldn't disagree with that.

00:37:34.980 But for me, it's not, you know, it's not the charts.

00:37:39.240 You know, it's not about the best and the worst.

00:37:45.360 Every one of those victims is a child.

00:37:47.940 And they all deserve equal support and justice.

00:37:51.880 And, but I always say that, you know, knowledge is power.

00:38:00.220 And before we can ever change anything, we have to know what it is we want to change.

00:38:06.640 And I am not in any way, shape or form racist.

00:38:10.940 But this problem, we need to understand why.

00:38:14.600 We need to understand why and where and how, and then work out how we are going to resolve it.

00:38:23.340 Because there are a lot of good Muslims.

00:38:26.020 There are a lot of people in that community, a lot of women that, you know, 1.00

00:38:30.040 I have dealt with in the course of my job who have also been abused,

00:38:33.820 who are also subjected to forced marriages and honour killings.

00:38:38.440 And, you know, it isn't about making decisions.

00:38:43.360 It's about seeking the truth and then finding a solution.

00:38:48.120 So I'm talking about something that needs a solution.

00:38:52.600 And unless we're prepared to talk about it and explore how we resolve it,

00:39:00.020 we're never going to change it.

00:39:02.320 Maggie, it's interesting that you felt you had to put in the disclaimer saying how you're not racist.

00:39:06.760 I think everybody would know that anyway.

00:39:09.600 But I think it speaks to something that's important to say in this context, which is,

00:39:14.120 and I was saying this to you in the car on the way here,

00:39:16.320 which was that when we first had a survivor of one of these grooming gangs on the show,

00:39:21.960 there was a distinct feeling of, like, all around us.

00:39:26.160 Suddenly, you know, we were two comedians back then operating in a very kind of progressive comedy industry.

00:39:32.360 And suddenly there was this feeling almost like we'd done something wrong.

00:39:36.760 And I imagine you encountered this as well.

00:39:38.900 And the thing that I find odd about it is I think you'd want to know whether if this was happening irrespective of the races of the people involved or any of that.

00:39:50.660 But yet that seems to me, based on what you're saying about 7-7 and all the rest of it,

00:39:56.040 it was almost like the fact that there was a racial dimension to this made it much harder to talk about and to investigate and to prosecute.

00:40:03.580 Do you think that's a fair assessment?

00:40:05.440 I do think that that is one of the dynamics, very much so.

00:40:09.020 I think that there's a racial dynamic there.

00:40:10.880 I also actually think there's a class dynamic, if I'm honest.

00:40:14.180 You know, poor working class children, you know, they come from a shittest state. 1.00

00:40:18.660 You know, they're out at 10, 12 o'clock at night.

00:40:21.060 I'd argue they need more protection, not less.

00:40:23.520 And as I said before, if it was Boris Johnson's daughter, you know, it wouldn't happen.

00:40:29.460 The police would be down like a ton of bricks.

00:40:31.580 You know, we find that the media absolutely focuses the minds of the authorities on taking action.

00:40:38.000 And the recent case in Manchester, where three women have been horrendously treated in police custody and strip searched.

00:40:45.060 You know, we went to the media after trying for two years to get the police to take it seriously.

00:40:48.800 We've now got an independent review looking at it.

00:40:50.900 So, yes, the racial dynamics are part of it.

00:40:57.060 I think it's important to say, though, that when I walked off Opspan, that was in the summer of 2011.

00:41:05.440 And I thought I was losing my marbles, if I'm honest.

00:41:11.860 You know, I still can't believe that it was left to me to highlight this subject because it was going on all through the north of England.

00:41:27.300 You know, Yorkshire, Rochdale, Oldham, Huddersfield.

00:41:31.800 You know, you look at a northern town and this was happening.

00:41:36.560 And there were all those police officers and social workers, and yet we weren't talking about it.

00:41:43.940 So I sat at home for about, probably about two months, actually, thinking, I can't believe what I'm seeing.

00:41:54.460 You know, am I wrong?

00:41:58.640 Am I missing something here?

00:42:01.860 And then, you know what happened?

00:42:04.700 And it was at exactly the time that the Hillsborough families were fighting for justice for their families.

00:42:15.220 And I sat at home on my own, watching the telly and seeing these, you know, mums and dads who had grown old fighting for the truth, really.

00:42:26.500 And then I had a conversation with my boss on the phone, and I kind of unburdened my heart.

00:42:35.200 And I didn't think that she was a bad person.

00:42:39.260 I just felt that she was being twirled and she wasn't strong enough to stand a corner.

00:42:43.420 But when she admitted to me that she agreed with what I was saying, that I was right, but that I should remember that senior officers made decisions.

00:42:53.640 I was just a detective and my job was to do as I was told.

00:42:57.700 And if I couldn't do that, maybe I was in the wrong job.

00:43:00.640 And that's what she said.

00:43:01.620 And my loyalty then to her and to any colleagues really went on a back burner because my duty was to those children.

00:43:16.160 But as well as that, with Hillsborough going on, you know, I've got four kids, and I truly believe that this would come out at some point.

00:43:26.280 And actually, it still upsets me to think of what I've lost to tell the truth, because I was just telling the truth.

00:43:34.160 But I didn't want my kids turning the TV on in 30 years' time when I'm, you know, pushing up daisies.

00:43:40.020 And suddenly, Rochdale and Augusta is all over the news, and all these children that have been failed for decades.

00:43:48.340 I wanted my kids to know that I had tried my best.

00:43:52.400 So on that day, I just decided that I was going to tell the truth.

00:43:57.760 And at that point, I was really naive because I thought it was down to one lazy colleague.

00:44:04.580 That is the God's honest truth.

00:44:07.280 We had a guy running that job. 0.72

00:44:09.060 He was a traffic man.

00:44:10.020 He'd never worked with kids.

00:44:12.720 He's a man who said to me, and I will never name him, I never have, when I was fighting for these kids,

00:44:19.440 and I had a conversation with him, getting upset that they weren't going to prosecute these men for raping another child.

00:44:27.120 He said to me, Maggie, Maggie, calm down.

00:44:31.120 He said, what are these kids ever going to contribute to society? 0.98

00:44:35.600 They should have been drowned at birth. 0.96

00:44:37.220 And I swear that that is what he said to me.

00:44:40.460 So when I had the conversation with the boss, and I'm watching Hillsborough, I thought, you know what, I am going to tell the truth.

00:44:50.980 But at that point, I didn't believe that the chief constable even knew what was going on.

00:44:57.680 I thought this was just that job.

00:44:59.400 So I went back to work, and the first person I went to see was the head of the public protection unit.

00:45:07.380 And she listened to me, seemed to be shocked, said she would do something about it.

00:45:14.700 And then I left it with her.

00:45:17.460 And a few weeks later, a couple of weeks later, I'm every day, I'm not sleeping, I can't eat, I can't sleep.

00:45:25.440 It's just constantly in my mind.

00:45:29.080 A couple of weeks later, I get an email from her saying, oh, hi, Maggie.

00:45:32.600 I'm really sorry, I've not done anything about this, but I'm going on holiday in a couple of days, but I'm going to delegate it to such and such a body.

00:45:42.440 Well, that was the first person that I'd spoken to about this when I was first concerned.

00:45:46.800 And I thought, nah, nah, you know, I am going to deal with this.

00:45:50.340 So I wrote to the chief constable.

00:45:52.240 I wrote him a long email.

00:45:54.040 I put everything on paper.

00:45:55.220 His response was to send me a four-line email back saying, thank you for your interest.

00:46:00.320 If lessons have to be learned, we will learn them, but thank you for your time. 0.99

00:46:04.660 And I thought, you know what, you can fuck off because I am not leaving it here. 0.99

00:46:10.660 So I went to the Federation and I said, no, I tell a lie. 0.99

00:46:16.000 He put me in touch with another person because I refused to speak to the first person that he suggested.

00:46:22.160 So I spoke to the head of serious crime.

00:46:25.600 He condescended to allow me 15 minutes of his time.

00:46:31.040 He didn't want to hear a word I said.

00:46:33.100 And he finished off by saying to me with a finger, listen, Maggie, because I told him that I am not leaving this here.

00:46:42.080 I am going to take this further.

00:46:44.260 I want something doing about it and I am not walking away again.

00:46:47.840 And before I left the room, he said to me, you know, some of the things you've said to me today caused me serious concern.

00:46:56.900 But you be very careful what you do.

00:46:58.760 You've, you know, signed a kind of a secrecy agreement when you joined the police.

00:47:02.860 Anything you know, you only know because of your role as a police officer.

00:47:06.780 And he said a few other things.

00:47:09.720 And the fear that left me with was that I would possibly go to prison if I spoke out.

00:47:15.900 So I thought I need legal.

00:47:18.120 I need some legal advice.

00:47:19.380 So I went to my Federation who introduced me to a lawyer.

00:47:23.640 I saw the lawyer, explained what had gone on.

00:47:26.800 And they said, we need all your evidence.

00:47:29.520 And I did have evidence this time.

00:47:31.760 I didn't on Augusta, but this time I did.

00:47:33.600 So I went back to the Federation, told them what the lawyer had said.

00:47:38.780 And at that point, they said, really sorry, but we can't pay for you to go back to that lawyer.

00:47:44.400 But tell you what, give us all your information.

00:47:46.640 We'll give it to the four solicitors. 0.99

00:47:48.340 And I said, you are having a fucking laugh. 0.98

00:47:50.320 I have already tried to get something done about this. 0.99

00:47:53.720 I've been right to the top of GMP.

00:47:56.220 No, I'm going somewhere independent.

00:47:58.660 They wouldn't pay for me.

00:48:00.240 So I, what actually happened was I was in a mess and I ended up unconscious on the floor at work.

00:48:08.500 My colleagues took me to my doctor who signed me off and with severe work-related stress, I was really ill.

00:48:18.720 But I decided that I was going to go public.

00:48:22.300 Wherever that led, I was going to speak out.

00:48:26.360 So I resigned.

00:48:28.920 I went back to see the kids that I felt I'd failed and told them what had happened.

00:48:37.820 Do you know that Amber didn't even know at that point that she had been added onto that indictment in the trial a year before?

00:48:45.440 She wasn't even aware.

00:48:48.160 But when I told her, she said, oh my God, because I was forbidden from speaking to these kids.

00:48:56.260 Now I know why they tried to take my kids, because it all makes sense.

00:49:01.680 So those kids are like my own kids now.

00:49:04.080 But I fought for her to keep her kids, and she did. 0.86

00:49:08.000 But I decided I was going to go public, so I actually approached Panorama.

00:49:14.260 They put me in touch with File on 4, because the Jimmy Savile thing was just all blowing up.

00:49:20.500 And I worked for three months on telling the basics of the story to File on 4, which is on the website for the foundation.

00:49:29.500 It was about Rochdale, but the girls themselves also told a bit of their story.

00:49:36.340 And then the drama team behind three girls approached me, and with the consent of the girls, I worked on that programme for four years.

00:49:46.440 And that's what educated the country.

00:49:48.560 And once I started to speak out, I think that's probably, well, when I first went public, the chief constable went on all the programmes, you know, Woman's Hour, and he was given a write-a-reply, the Today programme.

00:50:07.420 And I went on all those programmes.

00:50:09.480 He went on there.

00:50:10.420 And what he basically said was that I was a woman who had become too emotionally involved, that I was bereaved. 0.99

00:50:17.840 Basically, I'd lost the fucking plot. 0.97

00:50:19.320 And yeah, I had, because of what they'd done, but I didn't. 0.98

00:50:22.480 I was driven by what was right.

00:50:26.940 And really now, the ordinary people have been my salvation.

00:50:36.160 Because I'm saying nothing different than ordinary people believe.

00:50:41.920 The problem is at the top of these organisations. 0.97

00:50:45.380 They are corrupt.

00:50:47.380 Hey, KK, do you like trigonometry? 0.99

00:50:50.100 Of course I do.

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00:51:48.140 So, we talked about the racial concern, which is understandable.

00:51:52.840 People are very sensitive about that issue.

00:51:54.500 But it sounds like it was, in addition to that, there was just a lot of incompetence, or lack of interest, or they didn't care, or it was just a job to them.

00:52:08.440 Is that it?

00:52:09.400 Or when you say corrupt, what do you mean?

00:52:11.260 I don't think it's the individual police officers.

00:52:16.320 Okay.

00:52:16.680 I think it's the powers that be at the top.

00:52:19.060 These crimes...

00:52:20.020 Sorry, Maggie, what do you mean by the powers that be?

00:52:22.240 I mean the chief constable.

00:52:23.860 I mean the home office.

00:52:24.920 And why don't they care about this?

00:52:26.540 And just also as well, when you say chief constable, it'll probably help people to understand who the chief constable is, what they're in charge of, etc.

00:52:34.040 Do you see what I mean?

00:52:34.960 Well, every police force has a big boss.

00:52:39.120 Right.

00:52:39.360 And the big boss is the chief constable.

00:52:42.000 Got you.

00:52:42.380 So the Met, it's, what's his name, Roley.

00:52:46.460 Oh, yeah.

00:52:47.060 The commissioner.

00:52:47.700 Yeah.

00:52:48.160 In the Met, they call him the commissioner.

00:52:50.420 But every other police force in the country, they don't have a commissioner.

00:52:53.360 They have a chief constable.

00:52:54.720 Right.

00:52:54.900 Okay.

00:52:55.440 And they are in charge.

00:52:57.440 And around them, they have what is called a gold command group.

00:53:01.140 And they are assistant chief constables, head of crime.

00:53:04.920 And they are called a gold command group.

00:53:07.920 And they choose where the resources for that police force go.

00:53:13.400 So they have to prioritise how they spend their money.

00:53:18.880 And this kind of crime was not a priority.

00:53:22.240 So, for instance, if you go back to Augusta in 2004 and 5, the reason I say they're all connected, because in 2004 and 5, the Home Office were paying police forces additional money for good responses and outcomes in what is called acquisitive crime.

00:53:46.580 So, a burglary, a robbery, a theft from a motor vehicle.

00:53:52.060 If you rang up and your car was being broken into, because I was in the cops then, you would go like blues and twos and you'd be there in 30 seconds.

00:54:00.300 If you reported a rape, you never got, you were the back of the queue.

00:54:04.480 Because the police, it was not a priority.

00:54:07.940 So, they were called performance indicators.

00:54:11.320 And that's what you were measuring.

00:54:14.020 So, in a police force like GMP, if your performance indicator showed that you were solving all the burglaries or the robberies, then your funding from the Home Office would be far higher.

00:54:25.880 But if you dealt with these child rapes instead of the burglaries, then you wouldn't be meeting your targets.

00:54:33.320 And actually, today or this week, the Suella Braverman has announced that police forces have been directed that they must attend every burglary, every robbery.

00:54:48.520 That's just been in the news this week.

00:54:50.980 That will drive what police forces on the ground do.

00:54:54.600 So, all these, so, chief constables now are not independent.

00:55:00.960 They are political pawns.

00:55:03.820 And the government, they're not operating independent of politics anymore.

00:55:10.360 So, the priorities are set by the top, by the Home Office.

00:55:15.860 And that reflects on how a child who is raped is treated by the system.

00:55:21.420 So, what you're saying is, because of the...

00:55:23.980 Does that make sense?

00:55:24.480 I'm just trying to convert it into an easy to understand way of saying it.

00:55:30.420 So, the fact that the police respond to politically driven incentives and that political message creates perverse incentives on the ground.

00:55:42.180 And therefore, a chief constable who's trying to meet the political needs of the day, they're going to direct resources at things that are being prioritized by the government.

00:55:52.800 And let's say, I mean, it's obviously the case that burglaries affect more people than child sexual exploitation.

00:56:00.720 So, from an electoral point of view, a government would be like, well, you know, people care about burglaries.

00:56:07.440 Let's focus our resources, let's focus our resources on this.

00:56:09.280 And then the resources don't get allocated to these cases.

00:56:13.480 But that still doesn't explain why you had the situation, as you did with Augusta, where the investigation started, but it's not started to actually get to the bottom of what's going on.

00:56:26.540 It started as a way of deflecting attention from failings and is then immediately shut down. 0.95

00:56:31.820 So, that sounds to me like people covering their arses. 0.95

00:56:36.760 I think it's a PR exercise. 0.98

00:56:39.180 Right.

00:56:39.880 It's public relations.

00:56:40.860 But that's what I mean. 0.98

00:56:41.580 That's what covering your arses is, right? 1.00

00:56:44.220 Yeah. 0.98

00:56:46.480 Yes, it is.

00:56:47.460 Right.

00:56:47.920 So, you're trying to protect yourself from bad publicity.

00:56:50.700 Yeah.

00:56:50.940 Which is interesting to me because, look, I understand all organizations have concerns about how they appear because it reflects badly on the people who run them.

00:56:58.320 But policing is different for the very reason that you said, which is it's about protecting people.

00:57:04.400 But that's where I was naive.

00:57:06.120 Yeah.

00:57:06.600 I mean, you know, people might think I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist now, but I'm really not.

00:57:13.480 And, you know, if you think of the Lucy Lettby case, right?

00:57:19.120 This is a nurse who killed children. 1.00

00:57:20.620 A nurse who killed lots of children where the organization, the trustees in the NHS were more interested in protecting the reputation of their institution than they were in saving children's lives from a potentially murdering nurse.

00:57:40.720 And this inquiry will show that.

00:57:45.320 What I'm saying is that from the journey of my last 10 years, that is exactly what I see in the police, that there is no independent complaints procedure.

00:57:55.400 It's not independent.

00:57:57.200 Because there's the IPCC, isn't there?

00:57:59.100 The independent police complaints.

00:58:00.540 They are not, you know, they are not independent.

00:58:03.020 I mean, on Augusta, right, they're about as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

00:58:09.360 On Augusta, that job was deliberate.

00:58:12.880 The official inquiry reported that that job closed down because GMP were not prepared to put resources in.

00:58:21.400 That is the official finding.

00:58:23.720 Five senior officers were then referred to the IOPC for investigation.

00:58:29.960 All five of those officers refused to be interviewed.

00:58:33.020 That they, the IOPC has got no power to force them to be interviewed.

00:58:39.320 Those officers have all retired with a big fat pension, but they are responsible for allowing 100 paedophiles to walk the streets for 15 years.

00:58:50.360 For me, they should be held accountable.

00:58:53.000 They are guilty of misconduct in a public office.

00:58:56.240 And yet, there will not be accountability because they have walked into the sunset free of any kind of consequences.

00:59:04.800 So, I see these, that the Internal Police Complaints Department, the IOPC, they are delaying tactics.

00:59:12.520 They are all there to actually protect the organisation.

00:59:16.980 What I would say is that what's happened this week in relation to police forces being told they must investigate burglaries, that is another public relations exercise.

00:59:28.260 Because we have got a general election coming up.

00:59:32.080 The public in this country are disillusioned with the police.

00:59:35.680 Agreed.

00:59:36.020 Yeah.

00:59:36.140 Everybody knows that if you report a burglary or a car crime or a robbery, you will get a crime number.

00:59:43.120 That's all you get.

00:59:43.840 That's all you get.

00:59:44.500 So, this direction from the government is telling police forces what to do.

00:59:50.540 They're not getting any more resources.

00:59:52.120 So, once again, we're in the land of PIs, maybe not called PIs, but it's the same land.

00:59:59.440 They're not putting any more police officers in.

01:00:01.840 So, if police officers now who are under, they're not enough, they are not trained effectively, they are too young, they're inexperienced, experienced ones are running away in their droves.

01:00:12.280 If you are not going to address those problems, the government can tell them to do it, and OK, they might do it, because the chief constables will be directed by the Home Office to do that.

01:00:23.700 But the consequences of doing all the burglaries and the thefts and the robberies are that the child rapes and the, you know, perhaps the gun crime won't get dealt with.

01:00:33.540 You know, it's about prioritising where you want your resources to go.

01:00:38.060 So, presenting the policing to the public is very much a PR exercise.

01:00:42.680 They have very powerful public relations departments.

01:00:46.200 Local police, local TV stations and local newspapers will only report what they are given permission to report, because otherwise they're excluded from press conferences where they're going to get a scoop.

01:00:58.860 I know all this because I have lived it for 10 years.

01:01:01.660 So, I don't waste my breath fighting for things that are outside of my control.

01:01:11.240 What I waste my breath doing is trying to raise awareness and educate the country, because I am a big believer in people power.

01:01:22.660 Progress is far too slow.

01:01:25.000 You know, I would change it today.

01:01:26.520 But from where I started 10 years ago, nobody knew about grooming gangs.

01:01:32.900 You know, if there's one thing that I have done, it's definitely raise awareness.

01:01:37.700 The drama, we won six BAFTAs, and I've not watched it since I showed the girls, because it triggers me.

01:01:45.420 I can't look at certain things because it doesn't go far enough.

01:01:49.380 But what it did, it educated the whole country that this problem existed.

01:01:55.500 I'm too close into my story and their story.

01:01:59.280 But what I can see now is the bigger picture and the foundation.

01:02:03.000 You know, I started my own charity because I was falling apart, because there are so many desperate people.

01:02:10.300 So, the Maggie Oliver Foundation, we don't get any public funding.

01:02:15.100 I don't want it because I want to be an independent voice.

01:02:18.240 I don't want principles and truth to be mixed up with people who are paying our bills.

01:02:24.420 And the bills are actually staff.

01:02:26.540 We've now got seven members of staff, got 25 volunteers.

01:02:30.640 We offer ongoing support for emotional support to people who need someone to talk to.

01:02:36.500 But we also fight for victims who are trapped in a system now which is doing nothing.

01:02:41.900 So, I'm disillusioned with the system.

01:02:44.520 It needs to change.

01:02:45.920 I'm trying to change it by sharing current information of what I've learnt.

01:02:52.980 The changes will come from other people, though.

01:02:55.840 People in power.

01:02:57.560 And the way things have been, I have very little faith that they will do it willingly.

01:03:02.220 It's public pressure that will lead to change.

01:03:06.720 We have moved forward a little bit in the recent cases, abusers like the man who got Ruby pregnant are being charged with rape.

01:03:18.540 That's progress.

01:03:20.700 The sentences are quite often longer.

01:03:24.460 The way I look at it, if I hadn't started speaking out, would we be in this place?

01:03:32.140 I don't know, but that kind of makes me feel I've done something worthwhile.

01:03:37.320 But the consequences for me personally were horrific.

01:03:40.640 You know, I loved my job, my career.

01:03:44.400 I gave up my career.

01:03:46.200 I lost my home that I'd been in for 30 years.

01:03:48.860 I lost my income.

01:03:49.780 I lost my mental health.

01:03:53.480 I spent, you know, probably five years in a place where I could think of nothing else.

01:03:58.760 And I look back over the past 10 years and a lot of the good things, the fun things in my life have been squeezed into a tiny corner of it.

01:04:06.860 I've got my kids and my family and I want my life back, but I can't allow these victims and survivors to go on alone, which is why I started my charity, to build an army of people like me who will carry on my work.

01:04:27.220 And we're growing it in the spirit in which I started it.

01:04:30.200 And I have got an amazing team.

01:04:31.800 So anybody listening who wants to look at the website or do a fundraiser or donate, we are funded entirely from public funding.

01:04:43.080 And that's, you know, we've helped over, I think it's nearly 4,000 people now since I started in 2019.

01:04:51.060 That's a lot of victims and a lot of survivors.

01:04:54.640 But the authorities are not there.

01:04:57.480 There isn't enough mental health services or support services.

01:05:03.740 You know, as a country, we are in a mess.

01:05:06.320 We are indeed.

01:05:07.040 We are in a mess.

01:05:08.060 And I've picked my corner because I've got knowledge there that's taken me a long time to gain.

01:05:16.060 And if I walk away, that learning goes with me.

01:05:19.460 So I'm trying to make sure that it will carry on long after I'm here.

01:05:23.500 There's a lot of battles to be fought, I think, in this country.

01:05:27.480 And this is mine because I'm an expert now.

01:05:33.400 I know this subject inside out.

01:05:35.940 And I still care.

01:05:37.320 And it still matters.

01:05:39.100 And there's still not enough being done.

01:05:41.380 But, you know, we're not going anywhere.

01:05:44.380 And I'm not going to give the authorities an easy ride.

01:05:47.820 And I think I said to you before, I always say I have pissed a lot of people off.

01:05:52.720 But the people I've pissed off deserved it.

01:05:56.340 You know, if they were doing the job, I wouldn't be able to say this about them.

01:05:59.680 So if they pull the fingers out and do the job they are meant to do, they are public servants.

01:06:04.840 The police are there to serve the public.

01:06:06.940 And they are not doing that.

01:06:08.600 They are failing monumentally.

01:06:10.760 We don't really have a criminal justice system that is fit for purpose.

01:06:14.180 In these cases alone, there's less than 2% of reported rapes that ever reach a trial.

01:06:23.160 Reported rapes.

01:06:24.160 That's not the ones that are not reported because many, many victims will never report it because they know what they'll face.

01:06:30.340 So rape and child abuse has become virtually decriminalized.

01:06:34.040 And for me, that is not something to be proud of.

01:06:37.880 We are meant to be a civilized country.

01:06:39.960 We are not a third world country.

01:06:41.600 And while we're, you know, calling other countries for, you know, lack of human rights and inhumane treatment of prisoners, we need to be putting the things right in our own backyard.

01:06:52.380 And there's a long way to go.

01:06:53.980 So I know I go on, but it matters to me.

01:06:57.800 It's worth going on about.

01:06:59.520 Maggie, let's move on to the locals maybe because we're running out of time.

01:07:03.360 So we're going to continue the conversation with questions from our supporters.

01:07:07.640 And there's a couple of questions I want to ask you about, particularly about, you know, one of the things we've seen.

01:07:12.160 You talked about disillusionment with the police.

01:07:14.540 One of the things people see is people now being arrested for saying things and not being arrested for doing things, which is quite odd.

01:07:23.460 But we'll talk about that.

01:07:24.720 Before we do, though, we always end this part of the interview with the same question, which is what's the one thing that we're not talking about that we really should be?

01:07:32.860 You looked at your book there, and I agree, your book and the subject of everything you're talking about.

01:07:38.240 But if you want to raise something else as well, please do.

01:07:40.800 God, where do you start that we're not talking about?

01:07:44.360 Oof.

01:07:47.840 I don't know.

01:07:48.940 For me, I think the biggie is accountability at the top.

01:07:54.340 I think if we had that, we would see a lot of changes.

01:08:01.600 I think people at the top of society are often protected.

01:08:08.180 I mean, I don't want to just narrow it down to my subject, but I do believe if one chief constable was charged with misconduct in a public office,

01:08:17.360 that would revolutionise the way that policing works, because they would look at their own, everybody would,

01:08:27.080 every one of them would look at their own pension, their own future, and they wouldn't want to be sitting in a court of law.

01:08:33.620 That has never happened.

01:08:35.440 I would like to see that happen.

01:08:36.760 So I think accountability is probably the word.

01:08:41.800 Maggie, thank you so much for coming on the show.

01:08:44.240 Thank you for having me on.

01:08:44.820 If people want to buy the book, may we heartily recommend it.

01:08:48.820 It's Maggie Oliver, Fighting for Justice, Survivors.

01:08:52.800 And check out the foundation as well.

01:08:55.600 Head on over to Locals, where we continue the conversation.

01:08:59.880 Would you agree with the reinstatement of the death penalty for the prolific offenders where there's absolutely no doubt the crime has been committed, i.e. DNA?

TRIGGERnometry - September 24, 2023

Police Whistleblower Shares Horrific Story - Maggie Oliver

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