TRIGGERnometry - ＂Politicians Ignore Most Issues People Actually Care About＂

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00:00:31.020 Unfortunately, these do-gooders have this view that everybody's got goodness in their heart.

00:00:34.940 Sorry to disappoint you, everybody hasn't got goodness in their heart, you know?

00:00:38.900 And some people are coming here because they want to make money, they don't want to pay tax,

00:00:42.500 and they want to make use of whatever it is that's here that they want that they can't get at home.

00:00:46.380 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:55.300 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:56.620 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:57.720 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:03.400 Our brilliant and returning guest today is a journalist, radio, and TV presenter, Mike Graham.

00:01:08.240 Welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:01:09.160 Thank you very much.

00:01:09.880 I guess you must have liked it last time.

00:01:11.120 We did.

00:01:11.660 You guys have gone up in the world a bit.

00:01:13.460 Thanks to you, Mike.

00:01:14.400 It was your appearance that changed it.

00:01:15.760 Listen, Joe Rogan talks about you, you know, what more can you want?

00:01:18.100 Yeah, we're very pleased with how it's going, and you're doing very well as well.

00:01:21.840 We are.

00:01:22.260 Before we get into that, just for people who are new to the show who didn't see our first interview,

00:01:27.740 tell everybody a little bit about your backstory.

00:01:30.260 Who are you?

00:01:30.900 How are you?

00:01:31.300 Where you are?

00:01:31.680 What has been your journey through life?

00:01:33.000 Yeah, I mean, I came to broadcasting via newspapers when they used to be dangerous,

00:01:38.780 and they used to sell an awful lot of papers, and we used to drink an awful lot.

00:01:42.600 And, you know, it was great fun.

00:01:44.020 So I sort of got into journalism straight out of university.

00:01:47.300 I didn't finish university.

00:01:48.360 I just kind of decided to go into it.

00:01:50.300 Never learned shorthand.

00:01:51.880 Never really learned all the things you were supposed to learn now.

00:01:54.440 Never studied media.

00:01:56.140 I don't think they had media studies when I was around.

00:01:58.980 Did economics and politics for a bit.

00:02:01.260 Got into Fleet Street just by making a phone call to the right person at the right time.

00:02:05.640 Got a shift.

00:02:07.080 Worked in America for 10 years.

00:02:08.580 Came back.

00:02:09.140 Got fired a few times from various different organs, including the Daily Express and the Daily Mirror.

00:02:15.200 Worked for Piers Morgan for a while.

00:02:16.800 He's now back in the fold.

00:02:18.500 We're both working now for the same company again.

00:02:20.060 And I sort of ran out of road with newspapers because it was around about, I guess, the start of the century,

00:02:27.500 which sounds like a long time ago now.

00:02:29.280 Right after 9-11, sort of 2005-ish, I suppose.

00:02:32.760 And I was offered a job in radio and I thought, okay, I'll give that a go.

00:02:38.360 And now I've gone from working in radio initially with a place in Scotland.

00:02:44.060 Went through Talk Sport.

00:02:45.300 Ended up in Talk Radio.

00:02:46.200 Now we're a talk TV station.

00:02:48.420 And, you know, the rest is history, I suppose.

00:02:50.500 And here I am.

00:02:51.820 You'll have to keep interrupting me.

00:02:53.420 No, that's fine.

00:02:54.120 You just do three-hour shows.

00:02:56.060 You just talk endlessly, don't you?

00:02:57.340 It's true.

00:02:57.780 I mean, I do have this, I suppose I was born to do this job, you know, because I find it very difficult to stop talking as opposed to start...

00:03:06.420 We'll stop you.

00:03:07.180 But before we get into some of the stuff that's going on now, you've obviously, like you say, you've chronicled quite a long time in journalism.

00:03:15.020 How has the whole world of media changed in your lifetime and in the time that you've been there?

00:03:20.100 Well, do you know, last night I was watching, there's a great documentary, and I don't normally give the BBC any credit for anything,

00:03:24.500 but BBC Four, I've got this great documentary series about Margaret Thatcher, and I watched the first one last night.

00:03:30.680 And the amazing thing is partly to see how politics is covered back in those days,

00:03:35.580 and they start with when she was in opposition, so it's before she won the election in 1979.

00:03:40.000 And, you know, it's just a lot more old-fashioned looking, you know, all the interviewers are men, they're all white.

00:03:47.820 The good old days.

00:03:48.920 Yeah, I mean, you know, there are some people that like that.

00:03:51.800 I mean, now, of course, if you're a middle-aged white man, you've got no chance at the BBC, you know.

00:03:57.180 But, you know, she was very much more direct.

00:04:00.320 I think the world has become a much more sophisticated place.

00:04:03.500 I think the voters are more sophisticated.

00:04:05.420 The public are more sophisticated.

00:04:07.080 They have the benefit of seeing guys like yourselves.

00:04:10.240 They have the benefit of seeing all sorts of other things in different media.

00:04:13.960 But back then, you know, the BBC was kind of it.

00:04:16.340 You know, if you were not being interviewed by somebody on Panorama or you weren't doing, you know, the news, there was really nowhere to go.

00:04:24.600 And I think Fleet Street particularly was a very much more important place.

00:04:28.160 I mean, they still got the ability, I think, to influence the way people feel about things, but to a much smaller extent.

00:04:34.200 And I think now we're in the age where politicians can kind of present themselves to the public in such a different variety of ways that they can kind of direct the narrative, if you like.

00:04:44.780 I mean, Boris Johnson, you know, has been, I think, an incredible lesson in just how to do whatever the hell you want and keep getting away with it.

00:04:53.840 Because I think the actual substance of journalism, I think, has disappeared to some extent.

00:04:59.660 You know, it's all about a 24-hour news cycle now, whereas it was never like that.

00:05:03.600 Now, you know, I said on Monday when Boris was going through this vote of no confidence, he's going to get through it.

00:05:09.260 He's going to turn.

00:05:09.820 I mean, there were still people, pundits, talking heads, talking on all sorts of different outlets saying, he's done, he's finished, he's toast.

00:05:16.360 He'll be out by the end of the week.

00:05:17.720 Some were even saying he's going to lose the vote.

00:05:19.780 None of that happened.

00:05:20.740 And I think they're getting it wrong more often now than they get it right.

00:05:24.020 Why do you think that is, Mike?

00:05:25.440 I think it's because they're out of touch.

00:05:27.640 I don't think, you know, I can't be the only person that talks to ordinary people.

00:05:30.800 But we do talk to a lot of ordinary people on talk TV.

00:05:34.280 And, you know, you get a sense of how people feel.

00:05:36.760 And in London, it's a very different world.

00:05:39.160 You know, London has become a little island of sort of wokery to me.

00:05:43.480 It's a Labour stronghold.

00:05:45.460 The only place Labour won an election result in the general election in 2019 was Putney.

00:05:51.140 And you think, really?

00:05:52.880 You know, Sadiq Khan won another term.

00:05:56.060 Labour will probably win the next one.

00:05:57.520 And I just think that the journalists are all now from more and more from private education.

00:06:02.660 They're from Oxbridge, particularly the broadcast one.

00:06:05.620 And they're all sort of cut from the same cloth.

00:06:07.380 I don't think they would know a working class person if they fell on one.

00:06:10.340 You know, maybe they've got a cleaner who's probably from Romania or something, you know.

00:06:14.120 But I don't think they understand the British public at all.

00:06:17.460 No, and that disconnect seems to be happening more and more.

00:06:20.620 Well, particularly when you look at places like the BBC, where you just think, how do you represent ordinary people in any shape or form?

00:06:28.440 No.

00:06:28.860 And they talk about diversity, but actually they haven't got any diversity, you know, because all the black and brown people in the BBC are all middle class.

00:06:35.900 They've all been to the same colleges, the same schools.

00:06:38.600 You know, Rita Chakrabarti is, it doesn't matter what colour she is, she's the same person as Hugh Edwards is.

00:06:44.520 You know, even though they come from different places, they have the same outlook.

00:06:47.980 And now they're talking about actually finding a space for underprivileged white male kids.

00:06:53.520 You know, maybe they're going to bring some in, make the toast maybe, if they have toast.

00:06:57.920 But they have such a disdain, I think, for ordinary people.

00:07:01.100 Because they think if you are in any way right wing, you're just a racist or you're just stupid.

00:07:06.820 If you wanted Brexit, you must be an idiot.

00:07:09.020 You know, they've got this incredibly sort of entitled view that, and I don't know where this came from,

00:07:13.340 that only they have got the right answer.

00:07:15.380 I was listening this morning to the Today programme, which I've started doing recently

00:07:19.240 because they hit the kind of interviews at a certain time, about 20 past 8 in the morning,

00:07:24.880 and they had Michael Gove on.

00:07:26.360 And this guy, I don't even know who it was, it wasn't Robinson, it was whoever his mate was,

00:07:31.020 really badgering Michael Gove, as if, you know, he was some kind of war criminal.

00:07:36.340 You're kind of going, sorry, what's wrong with you?

00:07:38.980 If you want to ask questions and be challenging, that's one thing.

00:07:41.300 But to continually kind of badger the guy, it's not good radio, it's not good listening.

00:07:46.560 It's like, it sounds wrong.

00:07:47.120 Where does that come from, Mike?

00:07:48.160 Because in terms of what we do, that is actually one of the things we're doing the opposite of,

00:07:53.100 and I think part of our success is that we try to talk to people with different opinions,

00:07:58.480 and we, you know, we politely challenge them where we disagree.

00:08:01.340 But generally, we want to get out of you what you think.

00:08:03.720 Now, we may disagree with what you think, but we want to just get it down crystal clear,

00:08:08.160 what do you actually believe in.

00:08:10.120 And the best way to do that is to let the person say it.

00:08:12.660 So when does, where does this idea come from that someone has to be like interrupted every

00:08:16.920 three seconds and challenged all the time?

00:08:19.040 I think it comes from their own sort of psyche where they have meetings where they maybe give

00:08:23.900 each other gold stars for, you know, putting, pinning Michael Gove out and making him look

00:08:28.560 stupid or making him, you know, feel nervous or sweaty or something.

00:08:32.480 But yeah, it's true.

00:08:33.360 It's what they do.

00:08:34.000 They were kind of saying things to him about the cleaners, for example.

00:08:38.700 I mean, you know, at one point, I found this hilarious.

00:08:40.620 At one point during the Sue Gray report, aftermath in the Commons, you know, Keir Starmer accused

00:08:46.260 Boris Johnson of making the cleaners clean up.

00:08:49.400 And you go, that's actually, it's actually what they do.

00:08:52.740 You know, they had to come in and clean.

00:08:54.360 And you go, well, yeah, there was vomit.

00:08:56.940 Okay.

00:08:57.440 There was wine.

00:08:58.980 Well, you know, people are employed as cleaners.

00:09:00.640 I don't wish to be disparaging about cleaners, but if you're a cleaner, you clean and that's

00:09:04.620 your job.

00:09:05.200 So I'm sorry if you don't like what you're cleaning, but, you know, that's kind of what

00:09:08.480 you do.

00:09:09.000 And they were saying to Gove, you know, how does it feel to be part of the ruling class

00:09:13.020 that was horrible to cleaners?

00:09:15.100 And I thought to myself, you know, if I was Gove, I would have said, have you got a cleaner?

00:09:18.280 I bet you have.

00:09:19.260 I bet somebody cleans your house, don't they?

00:09:21.280 Have you ever been rude to anybody?

00:09:22.580 Are you telling me nobody?

00:09:23.880 And they were literally admonishing him for having a culture of rudeness inside of number 10.

00:09:29.120 And it's like, one, that's not a news story.

00:09:31.760 Two, it's none of your business.

00:09:32.780 And three, it's actually piss off.

00:09:35.020 I mean, that's what I would have said.

00:09:36.520 And it's not.

00:09:36.940 That's why you're not a politician, Mike.

00:09:38.800 I suppose so.

00:09:40.000 Well, in the old days, press got used to thump them, didn't they?

00:09:42.680 They did.

00:09:43.260 Yeah.

00:09:43.480 Well, I mean, lots of them did.

00:09:44.460 Bernard Ingram, who was Thatcher's press secretary, thumped a BBC guy once for asking the wrong

00:09:48.600 question and punched him in the stomach.

00:09:50.760 You know, it was great.

00:09:52.160 Nobody got hurt.

00:09:53.220 You know.

00:09:53.740 I think somebody might have got hurt.

00:09:55.420 But not much, though.

00:09:56.280 Listen, if you're a journalist and you haven't been punched by someone, you're not doing

00:09:59.840 your job.

00:10:01.220 There we go.

00:10:02.360 But, Mike, it's not just the BBC to give them their due.

00:10:05.120 It's also Channel 4.

00:10:06.340 They're even more to the left of the BBC.

00:10:09.000 Channel 4, which unusually, for me, has somehow ended up in the reverse situation with the football.

00:10:14.800 Because I was watching the football the other night, and Channel 4 were covering it, right?

00:10:19.060 This ridiculous, I don't even know what it's called.

00:10:21.260 The League of Nations Football or something.

00:10:24.040 And before the Hungarian game, which was equally hilarious for different reasons, they had

00:10:30.400 some bloke I'd never seen in my life before on the pitch with some woman who apparently

00:10:36.040 is a female footballer called Nobs, I think her name is.

00:10:40.100 Somebody, Nobs.

00:10:41.320 Jordan Nobs.

00:10:42.500 And I'm going, how did Channel 4 end up with this?

00:10:44.740 The BBC have got women's football.

00:10:46.460 Channel 4 have got real football.

00:10:47.940 And you're kind of going, how did this happen?

00:10:50.240 Channel 4 was supposed to be the people that represent the underrepresented.

00:10:52.840 Instead of which, we've now got mainstream Gary Lineker and people saying,

00:10:56.760 isn't it great, you know, here's the new Chelsea manager.

00:10:59.580 And you're going, sorry, who?

00:11:01.060 No, it's the women's Chelsea manager.

00:11:02.500 You're not allowed to say it's women's football.

00:11:04.040 You just have to say it's football because you have to pretend that it's as good.

00:11:07.460 But everybody knows it's not.

00:11:09.520 And it's like, you know, surely Channel 4 should have the women's football

00:11:12.320 and the BBC should have the other stuff.

00:11:14.600 Shouldn't they?

00:11:15.140 I don't know.

00:11:15.520 Yeah, it does feel like that.

00:11:17.640 But if you look at their news report, it's so disgracefully biased.

00:11:22.360 Oh, it really is.

00:11:23.160 Yeah.

00:11:23.560 I mean, Jon Snow was a joke.

00:11:25.340 I mean, he literally, I used to watch Channel 4 and he was just to get annoyed, you know,

00:11:29.220 because not only was he not very good, but it was so biased and so ridiculous.

00:11:34.340 And I mean, I don't even know what's happening with Channel 4.

00:11:38.460 Everyone's worried it's going to be sold off and taken over by some horrible, evil,

00:11:42.920 you know, Elon Musk type figure.

00:11:45.560 Good.

00:11:46.280 Hopefully that will happen.

00:11:47.540 But now it seems to be happening in all directions.

00:11:49.700 So, for example, GB News and Talk TV arguably would be, you know, a right wing, a right of centre.

00:11:55.300 And again, sort of just kind of doing what they do, right?

00:11:58.300 And we seem to now ended up in this position because I think the mainstream media slid in a sort of leftward direction for so long.

00:12:05.700 Well, now we've created a world where there is no balance.

00:12:08.360 It's just right and left, right?

00:12:09.700 And I think that's actually healthier because in the end, I mean, Noam Chomsky once said,

00:12:13.720 there's no such thing as not being biased because wherever you come from,

00:12:17.420 you have the training or the kind of upbringing or, you know, you bring with you wherever it was you came from.

00:12:22.260 You cannot be unbiased.

00:12:23.960 So you might as well not pretend that you are, I think.

00:12:26.360 I mean, I always say to people when they go, you're supposed to be unbiased.

00:12:29.060 I'm like, who told you that?

00:12:30.020 I'm not supposed to be unbiased.

00:12:31.280 I am who I am.

00:12:32.360 If you don't like what I'm saying, ring me up and argue with me.

00:12:35.600 If I want to get somebody on who disagrees with me, then that's what I'll do.

00:12:38.660 But there's no point in me pretending that I see everything the same way.

00:12:42.460 I mean, not to pick on Rita Chakrabarti again,

00:12:45.080 she said at the end of one of the Jubilee sort of segments that they did on Thursday or Friday of Jubilee weekend,

00:12:51.320 she said, we realise this is not everybody's cup of tea.

00:12:54.540 And it's like, well, what would you say that for?

00:12:55.920 Would you have said that if you were covering the Glastonbury Festival?

00:12:58.680 Because that's not my cup of tea.

00:13:00.140 I don't want to see 400 BBC people sent to Glastonbury to have a jolly and take a load of ecstasy

00:13:05.180 and pretend it's public service broadcasting, because it isn't.

00:13:08.060 You know, it's like ridiculous, totally mad.

00:13:10.720 So they kid themselves that they're balanced.

00:13:13.080 I think they actually genuinely believe that they are.

00:13:15.320 But they're not at all.

00:13:17.200 They're middle class.

00:13:18.000 Most of them sort of champagne socialists.

00:13:20.960 And they think all Tories are evil.

00:13:24.040 You know, I don't know where they get that from.

00:13:26.140 And it just, and the thing is, it's like you said, they don't seem to realise it.

00:13:32.320 No.

00:13:32.800 And then you watch the content that they produce and the way they question people.

00:13:37.480 And you go, this is so openly, nakedly biased.

00:13:41.140 Yeah.

00:13:41.280 And I don't even consider myself right of centre.

00:13:43.520 I don't.

00:13:44.140 But I'm watching this and going, you're patronising me.

00:13:47.600 Yeah.

00:13:47.760 You're telling me what to think.

00:13:49.340 Why not treat me like an adult, interview the person, and then I'll make up my own mind.

00:13:54.540 Right.

00:13:55.120 I mean, only the BBC would have conversations with their audience, you know.

00:13:59.100 Is it wrong to fly the flag?

00:14:00.900 You know.

00:14:01.260 Well, no.

00:14:02.040 It's not wrong to fly the flag.

00:14:03.420 That's the end of the debate, isn't it?

00:14:05.100 So you'd be okay with the Ukrainian flag, though.

00:14:07.440 But you can't fly a Union Jack, because obviously that would make you a racist.

00:14:10.980 It's a very perverse way to approach the world, you know.

00:14:13.720 Especially from the national broadcast.

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00:15:34.060 Particularly as an immigrant to this country, I find it very odd how in my lifetime, particularly in my lifetime,

00:15:39.840 I know this has always been a British problem.

00:15:41.940 Like, I think it was Orwell that talked about this as well.

00:15:45.080 How the intelligentsia in Britain would happily talk down their own country.

00:15:49.160 But it's sort of, particularly in my lifetime, since I came to this country in 95,

00:15:54.040 suddenly, like, being proud of your country in any way has become this deeply shameful thing.

00:15:59.060 And the intelligentsia, of course, used to be quite a small part of Britain.

00:16:03.040 It was kind of, you know, you'd run into these people very rarely.

00:16:05.920 They didn't really have much importance.

00:16:07.260 They were kind of slightly curious oddities who would sort of pop up on, you know, question time once in a while.

00:16:12.220 But Peter Hitchens makes this point a lot, that under Tony Blair, all of our institutions became kind of honeycombed

00:16:18.800 with these so-called intellectuals and these kind of, you know, left-wing ideologues

00:16:23.720 who were, generally speaking, privileged people, mostly white people,

00:16:27.080 who had somehow got to the top in their university level.

00:16:30.100 They somehow got put in charge of quangos, and they somehow got put in charge of political organisations.

00:16:34.860 And now we've got a massive problem, because they're running everything,

00:16:38.420 from the Metropolitan Police to the NHS to, you know, the Border Force, the Civil Service.

00:16:44.380 All of the people that run these things are intrinsically left-wing intellectual ideologues.

00:16:50.080 And they think that, for example, we shouldn't have borders.

00:16:53.220 We should just invite anybody in that can come.

00:16:55.620 You know, we should teach that four-year-old children living in Scotland

00:16:58.780 can become, you know, transgender, if they wish, at the age of four.

00:17:03.300 I mean, it's madness. It's totally mad.

00:17:05.780 And you see it everywhere. You see the police now, where every one of their cars,

00:17:10.040 especially the Metropolitan Police, they've all got rainbows on them.

00:17:12.380 Yeah.

00:17:12.940 And rainbows on their level crossings.

00:17:16.060 Right.

00:17:16.600 And you're going, no, this should be apolitical.

00:17:20.780 Right.

00:17:21.200 It should be apolitical. Why is it that they're embracing an ideology?

00:17:25.560 Yeah. And it just turns people off.

00:17:27.360 I mean, I put a tweet out the other day about, I think it was,

00:17:30.680 I can't remember who it was, Nottinghamshire Police or somebody.

00:17:33.560 Who put out this sort of LGBTQIA plus whatever.

00:17:38.220 I don't know. It's becoming like, just put the alphabet in different order

00:17:40.820 and see where it goes.

00:17:42.820 And they put at the end of the tweet, you know,

00:17:45.620 we will be watching the response to this in case of any hate crime.

00:17:51.200 And I went, so what you're now like actually, you know,

00:17:55.180 kind of asking for people to say things which you can then prosecute them for.

00:17:59.020 And I just commented, you know, what if we're just laughing at you?

00:18:02.000 Is that a hate crime?

00:18:03.400 Probably is.

00:18:03.860 And of course, I got a load of crap from a load of, you know,

00:18:06.100 gay activists and all that.

00:18:08.100 But, you know, you're not even allowed to laugh at them.

00:18:10.080 You know, they haven't come for me yet.

00:18:11.140 I mean, they might come bursting through the door, you know, as we sit here.

00:18:14.480 But you do worry that there are some people in the police

00:18:16.580 who would quite like to come bursting through the door

00:18:18.500 because of something you thought or something you said

00:18:22.200 or something you laughed at.

00:18:24.200 And you kind of go, I mean, I got things like from people saying,

00:18:27.240 why would you laugh at people because of their sexuality?

00:18:30.240 And I'm like, well, that's not what I was doing.

00:18:31.500 I was laughing at the fact that the police think it's important

00:18:33.700 to put out a tweet that shows them all holding up a rainbow flag.

00:18:37.600 It's not what they do.

00:18:39.020 I'd like them to put up pictures of them beating somebody,

00:18:41.700 you know, with a rubber truncheon who had committed a crime.

00:18:44.580 That's what I'd like to see.

00:18:45.720 Or, you know, chasing that guy off the bridge who they tasered

00:18:48.340 who was apparently threatening people.

00:18:50.080 And he's now unfortunately dead.

00:18:51.840 But, I mean, that's what the police should be doing.

00:18:53.680 You know, they shouldn't be holding up a rainbow flag and going,

00:18:55.880 would you like, you know, would you like me to come and talk to you?

00:18:58.220 No, I'd like you to arrest some bad guys.

00:18:59.840 You know, I'd like you to stop people burglaring, you know,

00:19:02.620 burgling my house.

00:19:03.540 How old-fashioned, Mike.

00:19:04.580 I know, isn't it ridiculous?

00:19:05.620 I'd like you to stop women from being attacked in the street at midnight

00:19:08.520 when you don't seem to have any cars driving around

00:19:10.940 making sure it doesn't happen, you know.

00:19:12.480 It'd be really good if you had nobody in your own fucking police force

00:19:16.060 who actually started, you know, killing people.

00:19:18.320 That would be good.

00:19:19.600 That'd be good to focus on.

00:19:21.040 The one thing that I find really funny about all of this as well

00:19:24.000 is like, you mentioned football.

00:19:27.120 Football is now this vehicle for the delivery of social justice ideology.

00:19:32.040 Yeah.

00:19:32.680 Which is about to have a World Cup in fucking Qatar.

00:19:35.860 In Qatar.

00:19:37.000 Right.

00:19:37.540 Where the FIFA organisation actually put out,

00:19:40.120 again on, you know, Pride Week, whatever it was,

00:19:42.900 a tweet saying, you know, we're looking forward to Qatar 2022.

00:19:46.820 It will be a festival of diversity and equality.

00:19:50.880 I'm like, are you sure about that?

00:19:52.600 I'm not sure that, you know,

00:19:53.820 when are they going to start throwing some gay people off buildings?

00:19:56.300 You know, is that part of the, you know, celebration for the final?

00:19:58.940 And you just kind of go, sorry?

00:20:01.080 And then Gareth Southgate the other day comes out and says that,

00:20:03.540 you know, it's going to be very complicated when there's a penalty shooter

00:20:06.460 because he has to consider whether or not to ask Marcus Rashford

00:20:10.080 and some of the other players who happen to be black

00:20:13.280 whether they should take a penalty because they got a load of abuse.

00:20:16.900 And it's like, well, maybe if you taught them how to take penalties,

00:20:20.340 they wouldn't get any abuse.

00:20:21.440 And I'm sorry that they got abuse.

00:20:23.320 But the point is, is that, you know,

00:20:24.400 people who play football get abuse all the time.

00:20:26.580 Look at Beckham.

00:20:27.440 Remember Beckham back in the day?

00:20:28.500 I mean, they were hanging, you know.

00:20:30.240 They were saying, we're going to murder your kids.

00:20:31.980 Effigies, yeah.

00:20:32.360 They were hanging effigies from lampposts.

00:20:34.720 Unfortunately, football fans are not very nice.

00:20:37.040 You know, as much as we'd like them all to be nice.

00:20:39.080 Unfortunately, you know,

00:20:40.160 Manchester United fans sing songs about Liverpool fans.

00:20:43.200 Liverpool fans do the whole, you know, air crash thing from Munich.

00:20:47.040 You know, it's not very nice, but it goes on.

00:20:49.260 You can't police that.

00:20:50.980 You know, it's like walking into a room and going,

00:20:53.240 I wish everybody would just be really nice.

00:20:55.800 But that is the point.

00:20:57.460 We want to police everything now.

00:20:59.880 And look, nobody is condoning idiots on the internet

00:21:02.640 saying horrible racist thing.

00:21:04.580 Obviously, that shouldn't happen.

00:21:05.860 And it's disgraceful.

00:21:06.920 But this idea that we have to police every single little thing online,

00:21:12.200 it's become an obsession.

00:21:14.120 You know, you hear about people online making horrendous offensive jokes.

00:21:18.580 I don't know if you followed the case of that bloke

00:21:20.760 who built a model of the Grenfell Tower and then set fire to it.

00:21:23.820 And he's obviously a dickhead.

00:21:25.720 Let's be honest.

00:21:26.260 He's a dickhead who's not particularly bright.

00:21:28.920 But when did it become illegal to become a dickhead?

00:21:31.600 Yeah, but why are you going to put the guy in jail?

00:21:33.340 Exactly.

00:21:33.620 And have his life ruined as a result.

00:21:36.060 I mean, we've got one, I haven't actually seen the absolute details,

00:21:41.100 but there's some TikTok story going around

00:21:42.560 about a guy who has been suspended from his job.

00:21:46.020 He works for TikTok in London because he made a speech

00:21:48.760 in which he said he didn't think it was a very good idea

00:21:50.540 to give people maternity leave.

00:21:52.580 And you go, okay, well, that's a view.

00:21:54.660 You know, it's not the world's most modern view,

00:21:56.960 but, you know, it's a view.

00:21:58.460 But no, he's been suspended from his job

00:21:59.980 because people were outraged by it.

00:22:01.680 And it's like, why are you outraged by that?

00:22:03.720 You know, there is actually a law that gives people maternity leave.

00:22:07.200 People are protected by that.

00:22:09.580 And so there's already a situation in place where,

00:22:12.400 like you say, if the guy's a dickhead, he's a dickhead.

00:22:15.960 You know, just leave him to it.

00:22:17.320 Doesn't mean he's a criminal.

00:22:18.520 So, Mike, one of the things that we...

00:22:20.080 I can't remember which guest of ours it was,

00:22:21.480 but we've talked about it quite a bit,

00:22:22.800 is this idea that as we increasingly see government

00:22:26.480 as a solution and answer to all problems,

00:22:28.680 more and more of this stuff starts to happen

00:22:31.260 because if anything is wrong in our lives

00:22:34.260 or our experience of interacting with other people

00:22:37.200 or anything that is wrong in our lives,

00:22:40.840 it's the job of government to fix it.

00:22:42.660 So if someone's saying something we don't like,

00:22:44.940 well, it's the job of government to fix it.

00:22:46.800 Yes, somebody should come from over there

00:22:48.060 and tell them to stop, you know.

00:22:49.560 Yeah.

00:22:50.020 Yeah, I mean, I think COVID was to blame for a lot of that.

00:22:52.160 I think people got used to the fact that, you know,

00:22:54.320 they couldn't do anything

00:22:55.420 because the government said they couldn't.

00:22:57.920 I mean, I think sensible people

00:22:59.080 were slightly less rigid about that.

00:23:01.200 I mean, I think it reached kind of peak madness

00:23:02.720 when Beth Rigby at one point from Sky

00:23:05.140 asked the Prime Minister

00:23:06.120 in one of those god-awful, you know, news briefings,

00:23:10.980 you know, well, you say we can sunbathe on Monday,

00:23:13.320 but can we sunbathe on Sunday?

00:23:15.320 You're kind of going,

00:23:16.620 actually, Beth, I'd rather you didn't take your clothes off at all.

00:23:19.420 But if you want to,

00:23:21.380 I'm pretty sure you'll be okay sunbathing on Sunday

00:23:23.700 and not waiting till Monday.

00:23:25.720 And you kind of go,

00:23:26.220 why are you asking permission for that?

00:23:27.960 What's wrong with you?

00:23:28.860 Why do you need to be given an instruction

00:23:30.520 as to whether or not you can do something?

00:23:32.920 Just do it.

00:23:34.100 You know, and I think we've,

00:23:35.120 I think there are a lot of people in this country

00:23:36.700 who quite like being told what to do.

00:23:38.920 Unfortunately, I'm not one of them.

00:23:40.580 And that is hitting a nail on the head.

00:23:43.140 And what I've been surprised at,

00:23:45.500 a Conservative government have come in.

00:23:47.600 Yeah.

00:23:47.900 Since 2019.

00:23:48.780 Well, you say that.

00:23:49.600 Yeah.

00:23:49.900 I mean, I don't think there's anything Conservative about them,

00:23:52.220 is there?

00:23:52.920 No.

00:23:53.700 No, they've been encroaching into everybody's lives,

00:23:58.060 particularly during the pandemic.

00:23:59.660 Right.

00:23:59.980 They've put in laws about protesting,

00:24:01.820 which I find incredibly worrying.

00:24:03.760 Spaffing money up the wall.

00:24:04.900 Spaffing money up the wall.

00:24:06.260 And then we've got this cost of living crisis,

00:24:08.280 which is obviously awful, terrible.

00:24:10.280 And their solution is just to throw money at the problem.

00:24:12.620 And we've got spiking inflation.

00:24:14.340 I mean, here's some money to pay your electricity bill.

00:24:18.380 I mean, that's ridiculous, right?

00:24:19.900 They're supposedly taking the money back from the windfall tax.

00:24:23.060 But in the end, don't pay people money and keep the price high

00:24:27.080 so that these people can continue to make money as profiteers,

00:24:30.400 and then we're all paying for it.

00:24:32.060 It's completely mad.

00:24:33.320 And the one thing they come up with today,

00:24:34.960 to give people on housing benefit,

00:24:36.600 the ability to buy their own home,

00:24:38.140 whereby in one fell swoop you stop the ability of people

00:24:42.640 to get into a house because they can't afford to buy one

00:24:45.160 because you've reduced the stock.

00:24:46.780 And two, you're then giving them the ability to buy a house

00:24:49.760 with money given to them by people who can't afford to buy a house.

00:24:53.620 You're kind of going, sorry, what is the point of any of this?

00:24:57.220 Instead of building some houses.

00:24:58.640 Instead of building some houses.

00:24:59.520 They claim they're building houses,

00:25:00.760 but they're clearly not building houses.

00:25:02.800 And if they are building houses,

00:25:04.020 they build them sort of willy-nilly without any thought

00:25:06.580 to the pressure on schools,

00:25:08.880 the pressure on hospitals, on doctors.

00:25:11.220 You know, we've got a lot of people in this country now,

00:25:13.080 more than we had,

00:25:14.180 and nobody wants to talk about it.

00:25:15.480 Nobody wants to say,

00:25:16.540 we've got 10 million more people here than we should have had.

00:25:19.100 We've got, you know, a million people here

00:25:20.700 probably over the course of the last 10 years

00:25:22.220 who've come here illegally, who are now living here.

00:25:24.620 Nobody wants to talk about that

00:25:25.620 because that's racist, apparently.

00:25:27.800 But since we've come on to the government,

00:25:30.680 what have you made of...

00:25:32.220 We mentioned earlier that Boris Johnson

00:25:35.680 being able to literally get away

00:25:37.580 with what, to me, are like the cardinal sin of politics,

00:25:41.640 which is you're saying everyone must do something

00:25:44.000 and you're not doing it.

00:25:45.680 How is that happening?

00:25:47.120 Yeah, I mean, I think it's partly

00:25:48.880 because he's just very stubborn.

00:25:51.200 And nobody really knows how to deal with somebody

00:25:53.440 who doesn't follow the rules

00:25:55.020 because we've now constructed this kind of,

00:25:57.680 you know, I don't know,

00:25:59.760 ectoplasmic sort of surface

00:26:02.540 where if you break the rules,

00:26:04.620 nobody knows what to do with you.

00:26:06.040 You know, rather like Tommy Robinson for a long time

00:26:08.580 kept doing whatever he wanted to do

00:26:10.380 and every time they arrested him,

00:26:11.900 it didn't really stop him doing what he wanted to do

00:26:13.760 and he kept doing it.

00:26:15.280 And I mean, he's now disappeared up his own arse,

00:26:17.280 I think, because he's just a bit of an idiot.

00:26:19.300 But at the end of the day,

00:26:20.640 Boris will not be told to conform.

00:26:24.640 And because he doesn't do what he's meant to,

00:26:26.860 they don't understand what to do with him.

00:26:28.980 You know, they all said,

00:26:29.960 well, any decent person would have resigned by now.

00:26:31.800 Well, guess what?

00:26:32.380 He's not going to resign.

00:26:33.600 So you might as well forget about that.

00:26:35.740 So maybe he's not a decent person.

00:26:37.380 Who cares?

00:26:37.980 Doesn't really matter.

00:26:39.160 You know, these people who criticize him

00:26:40.460 for being, you know, amoral,

00:26:42.720 you know, I hope they haven't got anything in their lives

00:26:45.240 which could be pointed to as, you know,

00:26:46.700 perhaps moralistically, you know, dodgy.

00:26:49.680 Most people have, you know,

00:26:50.840 most journalists certainly have.

00:26:52.320 But they're all holier than now,

00:26:53.840 saying he's a terrible individual,

00:26:55.260 he's a ghastly person,

00:26:56.240 he's a liar, you know,

00:26:57.740 he cheats on his wife.

00:26:59.560 I mean, you know,

00:27:00.300 what's that got to do with anything?

00:27:01.440 The point is,

00:27:01.900 is that he will continue to do his job

00:27:03.860 until such time as he's literally stopped

00:27:06.380 physically from doing it.

00:27:08.040 That's kind of my question, Mike, though.

00:27:09.660 Do you not think that it is a problem

00:27:11.980 that someone can behave as he has done

00:27:14.260 and not be removed?

00:27:15.660 And I think part of the reason I would argue,

00:27:17.560 and I argued in my recent Substack about this,

00:27:19.420 is that we have a dearth of high-quality candidates

00:27:22.940 to replace him.

00:27:24.280 The Conservative Party,

00:27:25.720 I don't know who would be,

00:27:27.520 what, Jeremy Hunt,

00:27:28.580 who was screaming down the phone,

00:27:30.380 shut it down,

00:27:31.100 we need quarantine camps.

00:27:32.440 I know.

00:27:32.760 Is that who we want?

00:27:33.580 No, absolutely not.

00:27:34.820 Like, who are these people

00:27:36.220 that's supposed to replace him?

00:27:37.100 The problem we've got, I think,

00:27:38.280 is we've got this dearth of quality

00:27:40.260 because we've encouraged

00:27:42.060 the sort of political class

00:27:43.800 to become very much

00:27:45.960 sort of self-fulfilling, if you like,

00:27:48.660 so that you can only really become a politician now

00:27:50.840 if you play this game

00:27:52.380 whereby you're somebody's special advisor,

00:27:55.100 then you then get given a sort of safe seat

00:27:56.920 or maybe not a safe seat to lose

00:27:58.940 before you get given a safe seat to win.

00:28:01.560 And, you know,

00:28:02.060 it's all about patting each other on the back.

00:28:04.420 There's no real ideology anymore.

00:28:06.020 I mean, this is what I suppose

00:28:07.000 I should have said earlier

00:28:08.100 when we were looking at Thatcher.

00:28:09.320 Thatcher believed in things.

00:28:10.700 You know, she believed in crushing the unions

00:28:12.940 because she thought they were too powerful.

00:28:15.120 She believed in having

00:28:16.540 a certain economic kind of policy

00:28:18.140 because she wanted to give people genuinely

00:28:20.440 the ability to make more money.

00:28:22.320 I mean, she created the situation

00:28:24.800 for my generation to make money, you know,

00:28:27.960 because before that,

00:28:29.380 you were born into a sort of

00:28:30.500 what I would term a sort of, you know,

00:28:32.480 lower middle class household.

00:28:33.740 You weren't really going anywhere.

00:28:35.240 You probably weren't going to university.

00:28:37.200 My sister ended up working in the city

00:28:38.720 because of the Big Bang

00:28:39.700 and, you know, stock markets opened up.

00:28:41.860 If you weren't in the old days

00:28:43.160 the son of a stockbroker,

00:28:44.740 you couldn't get into that.

00:28:45.640 You know, in my day

00:28:47.880 you could still get into newspapers

00:28:49.160 without a degree,

00:28:50.240 which I was able to do.

00:28:52.160 And you had the ability

00:28:53.320 to make bucket loads of money.

00:28:55.060 Now I think social mobility

00:28:56.380 is as bad as it's ever been.

00:28:58.640 You know, if you don't have rich parents

00:28:59.940 in this country,

00:29:00.940 you can't really do very well.

00:29:02.240 You can't get a decent job.

00:29:03.740 You can't probably get a decent education

00:29:05.360 because your parents can't afford

00:29:06.420 to put you through university.

00:29:07.640 And you're kind of stuck where you are.

00:29:09.020 And I think the political class now

00:29:11.540 is so far and away removed

00:29:15.220 from ordinary people.

00:29:17.060 I don't think they even know

00:29:18.260 what ordinary people do.

00:29:19.720 I mean, they all get their bills paid.

00:29:21.860 They get expenses.

00:29:23.100 They drive around in cars.

00:29:24.300 You know, they don't have to worry

00:29:25.280 about paying for.

00:29:26.480 I think it's just become

00:29:27.480 such a soft world, you know,

00:29:30.160 that it's all about ambition.

00:29:32.720 It's all about what job can I get

00:29:34.260 rather than what do I want

00:29:35.640 to change about society.

00:29:36.720 I can't name anything

00:29:38.180 that Keir Starmer wants

00:29:39.060 to change about society.

00:29:40.700 I can't name one thing

00:29:41.760 that Angela Rayner wants

00:29:42.680 to change about society

00:29:43.580 or Boris Johnson

00:29:44.860 or Rishi Sunak

00:29:45.880 or, you know,

00:29:47.080 I just can't think of anyone

00:29:48.300 who believes in anything.

00:29:51.580 It's so true.

00:29:53.060 And it's not just that.

00:29:54.660 It's just a complete lack

00:29:55.740 of vision as well.

00:29:57.100 Like, if you ask Johnson,

00:29:58.620 where do you want this country

00:29:59.740 to be in four years' time?

00:30:01.440 I mean, he'd probably hit you

00:30:02.440 with some platitude.

00:30:03.360 Oh, yeah.

00:30:03.900 He'll go on about, you know,

00:30:05.000 British pride and the flag

00:30:06.480 and we're the greatest country

00:30:07.440 in the world.

00:30:07.860 But it doesn't mean anything.

00:30:09.940 You know, it really doesn't.

00:30:11.760 And I think a lot of people

00:30:12.640 in this country

00:30:13.080 don't really know

00:30:14.160 what Britain stands for anymore.

00:30:17.200 Other than if it's Boris Johnson,

00:30:19.240 it's just getting away with it.

00:30:21.240 I think.

00:30:22.120 And that's a real problem

00:30:23.240 because people look at him

00:30:24.440 and he's not a serious individual.

00:30:27.320 He's not serious.

00:30:28.400 He doesn't command respect

00:30:30.280 with his own voters,

00:30:33.560 let alone overseas.

00:30:35.260 So what does that say

00:30:36.200 about us as a country?

00:30:37.420 Yeah.

00:30:37.840 I mean, I don't know

00:30:38.540 that that's true

00:30:39.240 about what happens overseas.

00:30:40.640 I think there is still

00:30:41.460 a respect for

00:30:42.900 the Prime Minister

00:30:43.740 of Great Britain

00:30:44.420 overseas,

00:30:45.640 no matter what.

00:30:46.240 And I mean,

00:30:46.460 Zelensky's been quite

00:30:47.360 complimentary.

00:30:47.380 You've got a massive fans

00:30:48.680 of Boris Johnson, by the way.

00:30:49.380 And I mean,

00:30:49.740 he's done a really good thing.

00:30:51.080 And I mean,

00:30:51.400 at his best,

00:30:52.360 he is that guy.

00:30:54.680 But like all kind of

00:30:55.840 flawed domestic politicians,

00:30:58.920 you know,

00:30:59.180 his kind of arena

00:31:00.960 of excellence

00:31:01.940 is overseas aid,

00:31:03.540 it's overseas policy,

00:31:04.960 it's foreign policy,

00:31:05.820 it's what the American

00:31:06.720 presidents always do.

00:31:07.620 Whenever they're getting

00:31:08.180 schtuped domestically,

00:31:09.680 they start a war

00:31:10.380 or they, you know,

00:31:11.380 invade somewhere

00:31:12.000 or they do something

00:31:12.940 which makes it look like

00:31:14.240 they're kind of

00:31:14.780 straddling the world stage.

00:31:16.500 And he does that very well.

00:31:17.680 No, he got lucky in this case.

00:31:18.680 But you know,

00:31:19.280 I mean,

00:31:19.600 my dad used to say

00:31:20.420 about people

00:31:21.080 that the first time

00:31:21.760 you meet some people,

00:31:22.700 that's the best you get.

00:31:24.600 And I think Boris

00:31:25.200 is a bit like that.

00:31:25.840 The more you get to know him,

00:31:26.660 the worse it is.

00:31:27.800 You know,

00:31:28.140 he's quite impressive

00:31:28.880 when he walks into a G7 meeting,

00:31:31.240 probably.

00:31:32.040 But by the end of it,

00:31:33.120 you're kind of going,

00:31:33.920 really?

00:31:34.600 Is this the guy?

00:31:36.160 You know?

00:31:36.940 But he can look

00:31:37.820 and first impressions

00:31:38.700 can be important

00:31:39.400 and I think first impressions

00:31:40.320 he can do the business.

00:31:42.080 But I just don't think

00:31:43.360 he stands for anything.

00:31:44.460 Yeah.

00:31:44.940 And like I say,

00:31:46.500 I am not a fan

00:31:48.140 of Boris Johnson at all.

00:31:49.260 But my bigger worry

00:31:50.600 is there's no one

00:31:51.420 who's a credible threat

00:31:52.560 to him on his own side.

00:31:54.100 Yeah.

00:31:54.240 Most of whom,

00:31:54.960 in my opinion,

00:31:55.420 are equally useless.

00:31:56.320 Yeah.

00:31:57.560 And they also like

00:31:58.940 the charisma

00:31:59.400 that at least he has.

00:32:00.620 He's quite charismatic.

00:32:02.140 He is.

00:32:03.020 And he can be very funny.

00:32:04.540 Absolutely.

00:32:05.160 You know?

00:32:05.860 Sometimes intentionally.

00:32:07.400 But on the other side,

00:32:10.560 on the other side,

00:32:12.620 you don't have

00:32:13.140 a credible threat either.

00:32:14.860 And frankly,

00:32:16.220 like,

00:32:16.500 I would really struggle

00:32:18.200 to vote for the Tories

00:32:19.500 at the next election.

00:32:21.560 But the only thing

00:32:22.740 that might make me consider it

00:32:24.620 is the quality of the opposition.

00:32:26.060 Yeah.

00:32:26.740 Well,

00:32:26.920 Keir Starmer,

00:32:27.600 in Prime Minister's Questions

00:32:28.440 this week,

00:32:29.540 absolute open goal

00:32:30.780 to rip Boris Johnson

00:32:32.260 to shreds.

00:32:32.820 And he missed it.

00:32:33.880 Just didn't do it.

00:32:35.080 You know,

00:32:35.280 didn't even...

00:32:36.000 I said today,

00:32:37.460 if you'd kind of

00:32:38.340 come down from Mars

00:32:39.340 and landed in the Commons

00:32:40.500 during Prime Minister's Questions,

00:32:42.040 you wouldn't have even known

00:32:43.020 that Boris Johnson

00:32:44.220 had been the subject

00:32:45.040 of a vote of no confidence

00:32:46.380 in his own party.

00:32:47.800 You know,

00:32:48.060 it took Ian Blackford

00:32:48.920 to bring it up

00:32:49.460 who actually was quite funny

00:32:50.480 for the first time.

00:32:51.700 You know,

00:32:51.900 I quite...

00:32:52.720 You know,

00:32:52.960 the trouble is

00:32:54.260 I'm torn,

00:32:54.920 you see,

00:32:55.220 by being a journalist

00:32:56.720 and a broadcaster

00:32:58.120 as well as being a citizen

00:32:59.620 because I kind of

00:33:00.340 quite like the chaos.

00:33:01.520 I quite like the absolute disaster

00:33:03.780 that is the government

00:33:04.860 and the way

00:33:05.660 that the country's going.

00:33:06.660 You know,

00:33:06.760 the petrol crisis

00:33:07.560 is something

00:33:09.260 that we can really get behind,

00:33:11.340 get our teeth into.

00:33:12.540 The NHS being completely hopeless

00:33:14.340 is something

00:33:15.300 which kind of,

00:33:16.060 you know,

00:33:16.360 works well for me

00:33:17.480 as a subject

00:33:18.840 to talk about

00:33:19.600 because we get

00:33:20.440 incredible stories

00:33:21.380 from people.

00:33:21.900 You know,

00:33:22.140 if everything was really going well,

00:33:24.240 I don't think we'd be doing

00:33:25.280 quite as well as we are.

00:33:26.940 You know?

00:33:27.460 There's a part of that of me

00:33:28.760 which kind of is wedded to that.

00:33:30.140 I hear you,

00:33:30.740 but I also think,

00:33:31.960 as you know,

00:33:32.800 speaking to ordinary people

00:33:33.900 every day,

00:33:35.720 this is hurting people.

00:33:37.240 Oh, sure.

00:33:37.840 Very bad.

00:33:38.260 I've got two teenage sons,

00:33:39.780 right?

00:33:40.220 I have no idea

00:33:41.060 what they're going to end up

00:33:42.060 doing with their lives

00:33:43.060 and it's going to be

00:33:43.640 very difficult for them,

00:33:44.500 I think,

00:33:44.880 to, you know,

00:33:47.020 chart a course

00:33:47.780 through their education

00:33:49.420 and then into employment,

00:33:51.500 you know,

00:33:51.760 because even if they knew

00:33:53.140 for sure what they wanted to do,

00:33:54.820 it's a very uncertain world

00:33:56.080 we live in now.

00:33:56.740 It's a very unusual place

00:33:58.260 for anyone.

00:33:59.620 I mean,

00:33:59.820 I don't remember that much

00:34:00.900 about my 20s,

00:34:01.780 but, you know,

00:34:03.500 I kind of just did

00:34:04.440 what I wanted to do

00:34:05.160 and I kind of did all right.

00:34:06.940 I think it's a lot harder now

00:34:08.120 for kids, you know,

00:34:09.260 and they'll be reasonably

00:34:10.420 well-advantaged

00:34:11.760 because, you know,

00:34:12.980 their parents have got some money.

00:34:15.000 If you're a kid growing up

00:34:16.100 in a place where there's nothing

00:34:17.160 in the north of England

00:34:18.520 or even in the south,

00:34:19.380 people forget that, you know,

00:34:20.520 this levelling up stuff

00:34:21.520 is not just about

00:34:22.500 the north of England.

00:34:23.300 I mean,

00:34:23.480 there's plenty of parts of Britain

00:34:24.580 in the south of the country

00:34:26.220 which are in really bad ways,

00:34:28.460 you know,

00:34:29.060 and if you're growing up

00:34:29.960 in a poor community

00:34:31.000 somewhere in Dorset,

00:34:32.920 you know,

00:34:33.240 you've got no chance

00:34:34.040 of getting anywhere

00:34:35.020 or doing anything,

00:34:35.860 you know,

00:34:36.080 you're too far from London

00:34:37.000 to get a job,

00:34:37.660 you can't probably live

00:34:38.880 in London

00:34:39.220 because you can't afford it,

00:34:40.380 your parents can't give you

00:34:41.480 any money

00:34:41.840 because they don't have any,

00:34:43.020 and what are you going to do,

00:34:44.040 you know?

00:34:44.780 Yeah,

00:34:45.180 it's,

00:34:46.100 and what I'm really worried

00:34:47.980 about, Mike,

00:34:48.580 is you're looking at things

00:34:49.520 like inflation,

00:34:50.420 the cost of living crisis,

00:34:52.520 and you think

00:34:53.640 things are going to get

00:34:54.420 quite ugly,

00:34:55.040 aren't they,

00:34:55.400 potentially?

00:34:56.120 Yeah.

00:34:56.240 Because if people are working

00:34:57.640 and they can't meet

00:34:59.440 their basic needs

00:35:00.820 and they're working

00:35:02.040 a full-time job,

00:35:04.400 that's a recipe

00:35:05.820 for disaster.

00:35:06.380 It really is.

00:35:07.160 It really is.

00:35:07.940 And I mean,

00:35:08.440 we're being taxed

00:35:09.840 far too much,

00:35:10.960 you know,

00:35:11.200 more than we've ever

00:35:11.880 been taxed in my lifetime.

00:35:14.760 By a conservative government.

00:35:15.840 Yeah,

00:35:16.060 well,

00:35:16.180 you've got to tax people

00:35:17.060 if you're going to give

00:35:17.840 everyone loads of money.

00:35:19.520 Well,

00:35:19.780 that's what we're told,

00:35:20.960 but now we're told

00:35:21.780 that they're going to

00:35:22.260 give us some back.

00:35:23.660 But how are they going

00:35:24.240 to do that,

00:35:24.600 I don't know.

00:35:25.260 You know,

00:35:25.500 this windfall tax

00:35:26.300 supposedly is being used

00:35:27.760 to give everybody,

00:35:28.840 you know,

00:35:29.500 a council tax rebate,

00:35:31.120 but that's not really

00:35:31.940 going to help many people.

00:35:32.980 I mean,

00:35:33.140 I've seen £150

00:35:34.400 as a council tax rebate

00:35:35.880 for my council tax

00:35:37.020 and I'm not saying

00:35:38.100 I need the money,

00:35:39.400 that's a month and a half's

00:35:40.460 council tax

00:35:41.100 out of a year.

00:35:42.620 You know,

00:35:43.000 what the hell

00:35:43.640 is the point of that?

00:35:44.440 And,

00:35:44.660 you know,

00:35:45.080 they need to make

00:35:45.960 things cheaper.

00:35:47.060 I don't know how

00:35:47.580 they do that.

00:35:49.120 You know,

00:35:49.480 we seem to be stuck

00:35:50.260 in a spiral of just

00:35:51.420 everything's going up.

00:35:52.540 I mean,

00:35:52.760 today we were having

00:35:53.480 calls from people

00:35:54.100 about the most expensive

00:35:55.540 petrol in Britain

00:35:56.660 and it turns out

00:35:57.880 that it's somewhere

00:35:58.400 in,

00:35:58.720 it was between,

00:35:59.460 at one point

00:36:00.040 it was somewhere

00:36:01.600 on the M6

00:36:02.320 and we ended up

00:36:03.060 with somewhere

00:36:03.360 in Chelsea

00:36:03.800 £2.20

00:36:04.600 for a litre of petrol.

00:36:08.340 And you're just going,

00:36:09.400 that's,

00:36:09.880 and it's going up

00:36:10.700 literally by the day

00:36:12.060 for no reason.

00:36:13.740 Suddenly it's jumped

00:36:14.380 5p from yesterday

00:36:15.420 and you go,

00:36:15.840 well,

00:36:15.960 why?

00:36:16.820 How is that possible?

00:36:17.720 And people say,

00:36:18.160 oh,

00:36:18.300 well,

00:36:18.460 you know,

00:36:18.640 it's market forces.

00:36:19.380 It's not market forces.

00:36:20.800 It's profiteering,

00:36:22.040 surely.

00:36:23.200 Why do you think that,

00:36:23.860 Mike?

00:36:24.040 Why do you think

00:36:24.480 it's not market forces?

00:36:25.120 Because I don't believe

00:36:26.240 that the cost of petrol

00:36:27.760 and diesel

00:36:28.780 and oil

00:36:29.480 at wholesale level

00:36:31.300 has changed.

00:36:32.080 In fact,

00:36:32.400 it's gone down

00:36:33.060 and yet the prices

00:36:34.460 at the pumps

00:36:34.920 are going up.

00:36:36.620 Somebody put this to me.

00:36:38.120 How about this?

00:36:38.580 I haven't investigated it

00:36:39.620 so I can't say

00:36:40.440 that it's true

00:36:40.940 but there's one

00:36:42.380 major chain

00:36:43.240 of service stations

00:36:43.940 in this country

00:36:44.460 which appears

00:36:45.340 to be owned

00:36:46.000 by a university

00:36:47.860 pension fund.

00:36:50.240 Now,

00:36:50.680 whenever you're looking

00:36:51.500 for profiteering,

00:36:53.160 you look at the,

00:36:53.840 not so much

00:36:54.680 the actual market forces

00:36:56.160 but you look at

00:36:56.860 like the futures markets,

00:36:58.360 you look at commodities,

00:36:59.700 I mean,

00:36:59.880 for example,

00:37:00.300 all the prices

00:37:00.920 that are going up

00:37:01.520 because of the wheat problem,

00:37:03.220 that's all being driven

00:37:03.980 by commodity markets.

00:37:05.040 That's all being driven

00:37:05.540 by speculators

00:37:06.660 in New York,

00:37:07.820 Hong Kong,

00:37:08.380 Singapore,

00:37:09.260 London

00:37:09.500 who are betting

00:37:10.540 on the price

00:37:11.180 of wheat

00:37:11.860 in the future.

00:37:13.460 That's costing

00:37:14.200 you and I,

00:37:15.520 you know,

00:37:15.940 two quid

00:37:16.360 on a loaf of bread.

00:37:17.900 And I think

00:37:18.500 that's the problem.

00:37:19.180 I don't know,

00:37:19.440 I sound like a communist here

00:37:21.000 but you know,

00:37:21.840 some of these market forces

00:37:23.360 are market forces

00:37:25.100 which are manufactured

00:37:26.140 in my view,

00:37:27.780 capitalist sort of market forces

00:37:29.240 in very strange

00:37:30.920 and convoluted,

00:37:32.240 you know,

00:37:32.460 a bit like the,

00:37:33.140 you know,

00:37:34.280 the mortgage fallout

00:37:35.540 from 2008

00:37:36.320 when the banks

00:37:36.760 were all failing.

00:37:37.680 It was because

00:37:38.120 of these ridiculous packages

00:37:39.300 of investments

00:37:39.940 that were being put together

00:37:40.820 by these rocket scientists

00:37:41.940 in Wall Street

00:37:42.540 who were packaging up,

00:37:44.120 you know,

00:37:44.400 risk and saying,

00:37:46.140 I'll take your mortgage

00:37:46.960 and I'll sell it to him

00:37:48.060 but I'll also package it up

00:37:49.780 with 500 other mortgages

00:37:51.320 because the price of property

00:37:52.520 is always going to go up

00:37:53.260 as long as that happens

00:37:53.900 we'll all make money

00:37:54.560 and then the profits

00:37:55.500 started to go

00:37:56.120 because the price of property

00:37:57.080 went down

00:37:57.520 and they all went,

00:37:58.280 oh shit,

00:37:59.260 suddenly we haven't got any money

00:38:00.720 and suddenly the banks

00:38:01.920 are all collapsing

00:38:02.500 and all that,

00:38:02.920 you know,

00:38:03.180 there's a lot going on

00:38:04.180 which I think

00:38:04.640 we don't know about.

00:38:05.780 Yeah,

00:38:06.320 and you,

00:38:07.340 so you host your show

00:38:08.740 and people call in,

00:38:09.980 what's the thing

00:38:10.620 that the ordinary bloke

00:38:11.720 or woman on the street

00:38:12.620 talks about?

00:38:13.600 The things they care about

00:38:14.480 the most are

00:38:15.340 the green,

00:38:16.900 the net zero crap

00:38:18.260 which nobody wants,

00:38:19.520 nobody wants to buy into that

00:38:20.660 even especially now

00:38:21.520 more than ever,

00:38:22.020 the migrants who come illegally

00:38:23.780 and the cost of living.

00:38:25.380 Those are the three things

00:38:26.240 and those are the three

00:38:27.040 most important issues

00:38:28.120 in Britain today

00:38:28.780 regardless of what,

00:38:30.640 you know,

00:38:30.860 politicians will say.

00:38:31.880 And the first and the third

00:38:32.760 are tightly correlated by that.

00:38:34.540 They are.

00:38:34.760 Not correlated,

00:38:35.500 they're related directly.

00:38:36.760 Of course they are

00:38:37.360 because if it wasn't

00:38:38.080 for this kind of

00:38:38.640 net zero obsession,

00:38:40.160 we would not be,

00:38:41.260 you know,

00:38:42.020 paying so much money

00:38:43.020 for the energy

00:38:43.520 that we've got.

00:38:44.320 I've always said to people,

00:38:45.280 look,

00:38:45.400 if you want to buy

00:38:46.580 an electric car,

00:38:47.760 then sell me

00:38:48.420 a cheap electric car.

00:38:49.700 If you want to convince me

00:38:50.620 not to drive

00:38:51.360 a big gas guzzling

00:38:52.620 four by four,

00:38:53.860 sell me the same car

00:38:54.920 for less money

00:38:56.080 if it's electric.

00:38:56.820 But instead of that,

00:38:57.780 you buy the electric version

00:38:58.660 of my car,

00:38:59.180 it costs twice as much.

00:39:00.700 Why would you bother?

00:39:01.600 And it's got half the range.

00:39:02.820 Yeah,

00:39:03.400 half the range.

00:39:04.040 And also I was watching,

00:39:04.780 there's a great video

00:39:05.460 which is out on Twitter today

00:39:07.360 from Ford in America.

00:39:09.820 And the CEO of Ford

00:39:10.900 who's a woman

00:39:11.320 is out like,

00:39:12.020 you know,

00:39:12.500 extolling the virtues

00:39:13.360 of this new electric car.

00:39:14.500 And somebody says,

00:39:15.340 what's currently charging

00:39:16.960 your charge points?

00:39:18.720 And she's like,

00:39:19.360 oh,

00:39:19.480 I think we're getting it

00:39:20.140 from the local

00:39:20.800 Lansing Energy Company.

00:39:23.180 They go to the Lansing Energy Company

00:39:24.560 and they say,

00:39:25.140 where's your energy coming from?

00:39:26.200 They're like,

00:39:26.560 it's 98% coal.

00:39:28.760 And you go,

00:39:29.180 so you're charging electric cars

00:39:30.600 with electricity generated by coal.

00:39:33.000 That doesn't really seem

00:39:34.200 quite like the green dream,

00:39:35.600 does it?

00:39:36.900 You know,

00:39:37.400 and as much as we want

00:39:38.500 electricity to be clean,

00:39:40.680 I don't have a problem with that.

00:39:42.360 But it's not practical.

00:39:43.820 It doesn't work.

00:39:44.880 And, you know,

00:39:45.380 most ordinary people

00:39:46.200 can't afford a bloody Tesla.

00:39:48.440 You know,

00:39:48.780 it's too expensive.

00:39:49.640 And if you did have one,

00:39:50.920 you can't charge it.

00:39:51.840 And people go,

00:39:52.340 oh, don't worry,

00:39:52.720 you charge it the night before.

00:39:54.240 Well, fine,

00:39:54.840 if you've got something

00:39:55.640 you can charge it with

00:39:56.720 or two,

00:39:57.620 but if you're parked

00:39:58.480 in a street

00:39:59.020 where there's a lot of flats

00:40:00.380 in the middle of London,

00:40:01.700 where are you going to charge it exactly?

00:40:03.900 It's not happening.

00:40:06.340 And so let's touch

00:40:07.760 on the migrant crisis.

00:40:09.800 And is that really

00:40:12.300 a very big issue

00:40:13.340 for most people?

00:40:14.320 Yeah, because again,

00:40:15.240 it's not simply about

00:40:16.400 people arriving on beaches

00:40:17.980 and walking into Britain

00:40:19.500 without any reason to do so.

00:40:21.860 It's about pressure on the NHS.

00:40:23.560 It's about pressure on the economy.

00:40:25.320 It's about what they're doing here.

00:40:26.820 Nobody really knows.

00:40:27.780 It's about the millions,

00:40:29.240 it's five million pounds a day

00:40:30.440 this is costing this government

00:40:32.220 to house them all in hotels.

00:40:35.360 You know,

00:40:35.720 I'm not going to be

00:40:36.360 one of those people

00:40:36.840 that says, you know,

00:40:37.400 they're all potentially

00:40:38.600 criminals or terrorists.

00:40:39.800 I'm not saying that,

00:40:40.860 but they shouldn't be here

00:40:41.800 and we shouldn't be

00:40:42.360 paying them to be here

00:40:43.320 and we shouldn't be

00:40:43.940 charging the taxpayer,

00:40:46.160 you know,

00:40:46.460 the equivalent of

00:40:46.920 30 million odd quid a week

00:40:49.080 to help them to come.

00:40:51.240 So, Mike,

00:40:52.360 how is it that a government

00:40:53.640 that essentially

00:40:55.320 was elected for one reason,

00:40:56.540 which is a promise

00:40:57.300 to deliver Brexit,

00:40:58.860 right?

00:40:59.320 Yeah.

00:41:00.020 Which was promised to people

00:41:01.580 as a way of controlling immigration

00:41:03.020 because we take back control

00:41:04.400 of our borders,

00:41:06.120 right?

00:41:06.820 Where's the fucking control?

00:41:07.860 There is none.

00:41:08.840 There is none.

00:41:09.340 Why is our government

00:41:10.620 not doing that?

00:41:11.600 I don't know.

00:41:12.340 Because, look,

00:41:13.220 I don't understand

00:41:14.840 the logic here

00:41:15.580 because if you say

00:41:16.400 this is what people care about

00:41:17.660 and I'm sure that all those people

00:41:19.220 voted for the Tories

00:41:20.240 at the last election,

00:41:22.000 then surely,

00:41:22.880 electorally,

00:41:24.140 it must be

00:41:25.080 an open goal

00:41:26.220 for the Tories

00:41:26.880 to fix that problem.

00:41:27.960 You would think.

00:41:28.580 So why are they doing it?

00:41:29.280 Because again,

00:41:30.020 I think it's something

00:41:30.720 that they physically

00:41:31.440 don't know what to do

00:41:32.920 to stop it.

00:41:34.320 You know,

00:41:34.480 a bit like they don't know

00:41:35.180 how to stop Boris Johnson

00:41:35.980 from breaking the rules

00:41:36.740 and getting away with it.

00:41:38.060 They physically don't know

00:41:39.440 how to stop them.

00:41:40.380 I mean,

00:41:40.560 I've actually said

00:41:41.500 there's a very simple way

00:41:42.600 to do it

00:41:43.060 and it would be simple

00:41:44.220 and you might laugh at this

00:41:45.940 but I would literally

00:41:46.600 go to France

00:41:47.720 with one of those Rambo knives

00:41:49.660 and every time you see a dinghy

00:41:50.560 you just stick the knife in it.

00:41:51.800 The dinghy can't go in the water.

00:41:53.840 It's that simple.

00:41:55.040 And they, you know,

00:41:56.120 then they're not coming, right?

00:41:58.180 People look at me

00:41:58.920 like you're looking at me.

00:42:00.360 It can't be that simple.

00:42:01.720 What I'm thinking

00:42:02.500 inside of my head

00:42:03.320 is maybe a little bit

00:42:04.520 more complicated than that.

00:42:04.980 I don't think it is.

00:42:05.740 If you can't get in a,

00:42:06.740 if you physically can't,

00:42:08.080 no,

00:42:08.340 if you physically can't

00:42:09.220 get in a boat

00:42:09.820 you're not coming.

00:42:11.360 I've just got this image

00:42:12.320 of you in a wetsuit

00:42:13.320 just going around

00:42:14.040 doing that to dinghies.

00:42:15.640 Seriously.

00:42:16.420 If you can't get in a dinghy

00:42:17.700 you're not coming.

00:42:18.680 I've got like

00:42:19.160 a movie image

00:42:20.020 in my head

00:42:20.380 and Mike

00:42:20.640 just comes out of the water

00:42:21.900 with like camera

00:42:22.660 paint on his face.

00:42:24.900 I mean,

00:42:25.380 they've got this,

00:42:26.100 I mean,

00:42:26.420 we're talking

00:42:26.960 that kind of level

00:42:27.840 of madness.

00:42:28.780 Yeah.

00:42:29.300 Because everybody knows

00:42:30.520 who these people are.

00:42:32.160 Everybody knows

00:42:32.620 where they're coming from.

00:42:33.780 Everybody knows

00:42:34.180 how they get in here.

00:42:35.680 Surely you just

00:42:36.220 stop them from doing that.

00:42:38.100 And now we're sending

00:42:39.080 them all to Rwanda.

00:42:39.920 Sorry, mate.

00:42:40.440 Yeah.

00:42:41.120 I'm not being sent

00:42:42.020 to Rwanda.

00:42:42.960 Unfortunately.

00:42:43.320 Well,

00:42:43.560 I've said to Downing Street,

00:42:44.960 the first flight to Rwanda,

00:42:46.300 I want to be on that

00:42:47.040 so we can do a show

00:42:48.320 from Rwanda,

00:42:49.140 from Kigali.

00:42:49.760 But it now looks like

00:42:51.980 they're saying,

00:42:52.480 oh, well,

00:42:52.920 you know,

00:42:53.140 the first flight

00:42:53.660 might be difficult

00:42:54.400 because there's lawyers

00:42:55.340 in the way.

00:42:56.000 Why can't you send them

00:42:56.780 back to France, mate?

00:42:58.040 That's what I don't understand.

00:42:58.940 Well,

00:42:59.140 because we're frightened

00:42:59.900 of doing that.

00:43:00.540 You know,

00:43:00.800 whenever you say

00:43:01.440 turn the boats back,

00:43:02.840 people go,

00:43:03.460 oh, people might die.

00:43:04.540 Not that many people die.

00:43:05.880 We've had 10,000 people

00:43:06.900 have come already this year.

00:43:08.120 I don't think anybody's

00:43:08.880 died so far this year.

00:43:10.060 It's pretty,

00:43:10.580 I mean,

00:43:10.780 I go down the south coast

00:43:12.040 pretty much every weekend.

00:43:13.460 It's like a mill pond.

00:43:14.620 The serpentine is busier

00:43:16.300 and, you know,

00:43:17.180 more rough than the channel

00:43:18.340 at most of the times

00:43:19.400 of the year.

00:43:20.120 And, you know,

00:43:20.800 there's no reason why

00:43:22.000 we owe these people anything.

00:43:24.800 You know,

00:43:25.240 when we get told

00:43:25.960 by the lefties,

00:43:26.620 oh, they're fleeing,

00:43:27.300 you know,

00:43:27.520 war and trauma

00:43:28.460 and disaster,

00:43:29.200 well,

00:43:29.280 they look pretty happy

00:43:29.960 when they get here.

00:43:30.900 They've all got phones

00:43:31.820 that they're able to throw

00:43:32.540 into the river.

00:43:33.380 I mean,

00:43:33.560 I wouldn't throw my phone away.

00:43:34.540 I paid a lot of money for it.

00:43:35.640 But they apparently

00:43:36.260 don't seem to care about that.

00:43:37.660 My belief is that

00:43:38.800 many of them are coming here

00:43:39.940 as part of a criminal enterprise

00:43:41.820 because they're being paid

00:43:43.500 to do so

00:43:44.440 by human traffickers

00:43:45.800 who want them to come here.

00:43:47.300 Not because they're going to

00:43:48.300 commit horrible,

00:43:49.460 awful,

00:43:49.980 heinous crimes,

00:43:50.760 but they'll work

00:43:51.560 in the black economy.

00:43:52.980 You know,

00:43:53.560 whether they're washing cars,

00:43:56.340 whether they're running brothels,

00:43:57.640 whether they're running,

00:43:58.300 you know,

00:43:58.520 money laundering schemes,

00:43:59.700 I don't know.

00:44:00.740 But it seems to me

00:44:01.520 that that's the aim.

00:44:03.260 They're not coming here

00:44:04.120 to become doctors.

00:44:05.400 You know,

00:44:05.560 they're not coming here

00:44:06.220 to join the police force.

00:44:07.540 They're not coming here

00:44:08.640 because they like

00:44:09.740 the look of Highbury.

00:44:11.440 You know,

00:44:12.080 they're coming here

00:44:12.680 to do a job of work.

00:44:13.900 And I think it's

00:44:14.480 for the human traffickers

00:44:15.360 who run criminal gangs.

00:44:16.780 It's more lucrative now

00:44:17.900 to smuggle people

00:44:18.660 than it is to smuggle cocaine.

00:44:20.200 And that's what they're doing.

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00:45:26.120 Mike,

00:45:26.460 why can't we have

00:45:27.840 honest conversations

00:45:28.800 about this?

00:45:29.400 Why is it that

00:45:30.180 I turn on my TV

00:45:31.520 and we're not

00:45:33.580 going to have

00:45:33.900 an honest conversation

00:45:34.800 about this on the BBC?

00:45:36.340 Or Channel 4?

00:45:37.760 Because people

00:45:38.500 are either

00:45:40.280 squeamish,

00:45:41.380 or deluded,

00:45:42.720 or completely and utterly

00:45:43.980 kind of wedded to this

00:45:45.060 idea of a global world

00:45:46.680 that literally doesn't

00:45:47.940 have any borders.

00:45:49.180 And if you live in a

00:45:50.180 place where,

00:45:50.840 you know,

00:45:52.160 ethnic minorities

00:45:52.900 have taken over

00:45:53.840 the part of the world

00:45:55.640 that you know

00:45:56.360 that didn't used to

00:45:57.380 be like that,

00:45:58.200 you're going to feel

00:45:58.780 pretty weird about that.

00:45:59.900 You're not going to be

00:46:00.400 in favour of it.

00:46:01.160 You're not going to be

00:46:01.500 happy about it.

00:46:02.520 You know,

00:46:02.760 there are parts of

00:46:03.340 London which I drive

00:46:05.000 through from time to

00:46:05.740 time,

00:46:06.500 and you can see

00:46:07.820 that it's full of

00:46:09.000 people from Eritrea

00:46:10.320 or full of people

00:46:11.060 from Ethiopia.

00:46:12.100 Now,

00:46:12.260 I've got no problem

00:46:12.800 with that,

00:46:13.260 but I don't live there.

00:46:14.380 But if you're some

00:46:15.280 white guy who lived

00:46:16.440 there for 40,

00:46:17.220 50 years,

00:46:17.860 and you look around

00:46:18.500 and you see

00:46:18.920 everything's changed,

00:46:19.660 you go,

00:46:20.540 there's something a bit

00:46:21.320 odd about this.

00:46:22.300 This is not what I recognise

00:46:24.180 as my place.

00:46:25.240 I'm as much in favour

00:46:26.220 of multicultural cities

00:46:27.860 as anybody.

00:46:28.780 But I think the problem

00:46:29.620 is that one,

00:46:30.900 because it's out of control,

00:46:32.600 you don't know

00:46:33.380 what's going on.

00:46:35.080 People feel helpless.

00:46:36.220 I mean,

00:46:36.640 I was listening to Nick Ferrari

00:46:37.460 the other day,

00:46:38.180 and he said,

00:46:38.680 well,

00:46:38.780 maybe we should just

00:46:39.460 let them come.

00:46:40.220 It's quite a small

00:46:41.000 number of people.

00:46:41.780 It's not really going

00:46:42.960 to have an impact

00:46:43.640 on most of the country.

00:46:45.160 You're going,

00:46:45.640 sorry?

00:46:46.600 What are you talking about?

00:46:47.940 You know,

00:46:48.280 if you're talking about

00:46:48.940 30,000 people a year,

00:46:51.580 that's a small town

00:46:52.880 in Britain

00:46:53.340 every single year.

00:46:55.220 You know?

00:46:56.780 And that's going to have

00:46:57.740 an impact on everything.

00:46:59.680 But this is the thing.

00:47:00.400 The people on the left

00:47:01.280 who refuse to talk about this

00:47:02.640 don't understand

00:47:03.840 that actually

00:47:04.620 that has an impact,

00:47:06.640 like you said before,

00:47:07.660 on public services,

00:47:09.000 on schools,

00:47:09.940 on the NHS.

00:47:11.040 Absolutely.

00:47:11.620 I mean,

00:47:12.100 it so happens

00:47:12.880 that most of the people

00:47:13.920 who come on the boats

00:47:14.780 have brown skin.

00:47:16.560 That's not really the issue.

00:47:17.700 There's plenty of Albanians

00:47:18.640 coming as well.

00:47:19.880 There was a load of Albanians

00:47:20.920 that came the other week.

00:47:22.060 And unfortunately,

00:47:22.760 whether you like it or not,

00:47:23.920 a lot of people

00:47:24.340 who come from Albania

00:47:25.200 are hooked into the drugs culture,

00:47:26.880 into the criminal culture.

00:47:28.220 There's a lot of gangs

00:47:28.920 in Albania.

00:47:29.860 You know,

00:47:30.240 they're not coming here legally

00:47:31.360 because they don't want

00:47:33.000 to come legally.

00:47:33.640 They want to come illegally

00:47:34.440 so they're not traceable.

00:47:36.120 You know,

00:47:36.400 people,

00:47:36.880 unfortunately,

00:47:37.400 these do-gooders

00:47:38.000 have this view

00:47:38.520 that everybody's got goodness

00:47:40.000 in their heart.

00:47:40.740 Sorry to disappoint you,

00:47:42.260 everybody hasn't got goodness

00:47:43.260 in their heart.

00:47:44.160 You know?

00:47:44.420 And some people

00:47:45.280 are coming here

00:47:45.800 because they want to make money,

00:47:47.280 they don't want to pay tax,

00:47:48.300 and they want to make use

00:47:49.140 of whatever it is

00:47:49.800 that's here that they want

00:47:51.080 that they can't get at home.

00:47:52.600 You know,

00:47:53.060 even in a place like Poland,

00:47:54.840 the average salary

00:47:56.020 is 50% of what it is here.

00:47:58.560 You know,

00:47:58.940 of course they want to come

00:47:59.800 and work here

00:48:00.260 and want to live here,

00:48:00.940 but we can't just keep saying

00:48:02.140 that's not a problem.

00:48:03.940 You know,

00:48:04.260 and most people in this country

00:48:05.440 give a shit about that.

00:48:06.540 Well,

00:48:06.840 no,

00:48:07.300 I agree with you.

00:48:08.140 And the thing is as well

00:48:09.200 is we are now quite plugged

00:48:10.520 into that immigrant labor

00:48:12.100 to the extent that,

00:48:13.520 for example,

00:48:13.880 we had James Cavarini in here

00:48:15.460 who runs a restaurant

00:48:16.320 in West London

00:48:17.080 and he made the point

00:48:18.500 that whether it was Brexit

00:48:19.640 or whether it's COVID

00:48:20.980 and whatever,

00:48:22.320 we've got to a position,

00:48:23.360 actually,

00:48:23.700 we're very short on staff

00:48:25.340 in certain,

00:48:26.040 like airports are getting

00:48:27.020 flights cancelled,

00:48:28.360 restaurants are really struggling

00:48:29.500 to hire staff,

00:48:31.400 you know,

00:48:31.680 farms,

00:48:32.080 et cetera,

00:48:32.280 because we've come

00:48:33.640 to rely on people

00:48:34.860 and now the argument's become

00:48:36.140 we need these people

00:48:36.960 to do the jobs

00:48:37.680 that we don't want to do.

00:48:39.420 How much truth

00:48:40.200 do you think there is to that?

00:48:40.820 I think there's truth to that,

00:48:41.780 but I think you've got to think

00:48:42.660 about the reason,

00:48:44.020 the second part of that sentence,

00:48:45.260 which is the jobs

00:48:45.880 that we don't want to do.

00:48:47.340 The problem in this country

00:48:48.200 is that people are paid

00:48:49.240 not to work

00:48:49.920 and there's an awful lot

00:48:51.200 more people on benefits

00:48:52.280 than should be on benefits

00:48:53.320 and for a lot of people

00:48:54.600 it makes no sense

00:48:55.600 to go to work

00:48:56.140 because they're better off,

00:48:57.440 if you're on a sort of

00:48:58.240 minimum wage scenario

00:48:59.280 and you've got two or three kids,

00:49:01.040 you're better off not working.

00:49:02.280 Because you get to have

00:49:03.180 more money

00:49:03.700 and you get to have

00:49:04.880 more liquidity

00:49:06.380 and more cash to spend

00:49:08.180 if you just stay on benefits

00:49:09.600 because you get

00:49:10.740 your housing benefit,

00:49:12.140 you get your council tax paid,

00:49:14.160 you know,

00:49:14.500 you get whatever it is

00:49:15.980 that tops up

00:49:17.100 even small amounts of money

00:49:18.800 that you might make

00:49:19.500 if you do a bit of part-time work,

00:49:20.720 but there's no reason

00:49:21.940 for you to become a waiter

00:49:23.220 in James K.

00:49:24.520 of Arena's restaurant

00:49:25.180 because you're better off

00:49:26.400 not doing it

00:49:26.980 and it's also quite hard work.

00:49:28.580 So I think we've got

00:49:29.180 a class of people

00:49:29.900 in this country

00:49:30.340 who don't want to work

00:49:31.240 but it's not really their fault,

00:49:32.920 it's the government's fault

00:49:33.780 for paying them not to.

00:49:36.720 And it's...

00:49:37.380 You know, in America, for example,

00:49:38.760 and I know this from living there,

00:49:40.220 you get six months unemployment

00:49:41.980 and if after six months

00:49:43.420 you haven't found a job,

00:49:44.720 you don't get any more money.

00:49:46.340 And I think that's a great system

00:49:47.740 because if you can work,

00:49:49.400 you should.

00:49:50.380 And a lot of people in America work

00:49:51.720 because they want the healthcare

00:49:53.260 that goes with it.

00:49:53.960 You know, you need to incentivise

00:49:56.140 people to work

00:49:56.880 and I'm not going to buy

00:49:57.840 this bullshit that, you know,

00:49:59.520 oh, all the people have gone back

00:50:00.880 because of Brexit.

00:50:01.920 I mean, some of them have.

00:50:03.700 Five million, I think, stayed.

00:50:05.380 So it's not true to say

00:50:06.400 that they all left

00:50:06.980 because they didn't like Britain

00:50:08.100 being an isolationist country.

00:50:09.540 But in the end,

00:50:10.880 they were working for less money

00:50:13.240 than British people

00:50:14.480 were willing to work for.

00:50:16.080 And you have to up the wages.

00:50:17.220 The whole point of Brexit

00:50:17.940 was to pay people better

00:50:19.500 to make more money.

00:50:20.860 And if that was to happen,

00:50:24.520 I think more people

00:50:25.580 would be working for James

00:50:26.600 than other people, you know?

00:50:28.660 Mike, moving on now,

00:50:29.800 we talked about the past

00:50:31.380 of journalism.

00:50:33.220 What do you think is going to be

00:50:34.060 the future of journalism?

00:50:35.260 We've just, you know,

00:50:36.120 talk TV,

00:50:37.360 you should obviously be talk radio.

00:50:39.240 Now it's talk TV.

00:50:40.240 So what do you think

00:50:41.040 is going to be the future

00:50:42.200 with the media landscape?

00:50:43.680 Well, I think as we move forward,

00:50:45.140 there will become,

00:50:46.160 there will be more

00:50:47.060 kind of fragmentation of it

00:50:48.420 and more people will watch

00:50:50.380 less of one thing.

00:50:52.260 So they will be given

00:50:53.240 a bigger sort of menu

00:50:54.740 of what it is

00:50:55.680 that they want to see, you know?

00:50:56.720 At the moment,

00:50:57.600 there is still

00:50:58.300 a large amount of dominance

00:50:59.960 in terms of the BBC and ITV.

00:51:02.800 Less so Channel 4,

00:51:04.060 less so Channel 5.

00:51:05.940 But what I have seen recently

00:51:07.280 is a move towards

00:51:08.380 more opinionated programming.

00:51:11.160 So Sky have now got an,

00:51:12.640 you know,

00:51:13.180 a sort of an interest

00:51:13.880 in putting out

00:51:14.640 personality-led programs,

00:51:17.760 although their personalities

00:51:19.020 aren't much to write home about,

00:51:20.460 unfortunately.

00:51:21.280 And you've got Sophie Ridge

00:51:22.200 and sort of, you know,

00:51:23.320 Beth Rigby

00:51:23.880 and what's his name,

00:51:26.000 Trevor Phillips.

00:51:27.480 Much of a muchness, you know.

00:51:28.620 Trevor's great.

00:51:29.280 Trevor's a good guy.

00:51:29.940 I'm a big fan of Trevor.

00:51:30.440 He's a good guy,

00:51:31.220 but, you know,

00:51:31.800 are people going to watch him

00:51:33.060 for him?

00:51:34.140 They still don't quite know

00:51:35.220 how to do it.

00:51:35.800 You know,

00:51:35.960 I prefer the American model

00:51:37.060 where people are

00:51:37.900 much more opinionated.

00:51:39.760 There's a lot of journalists

00:51:40.640 in this country

00:51:41.040 who still can't quite

00:51:41.740 get their heads around that.

00:51:42.880 You know,

00:51:43.020 there's nothing wrong

00:51:43.440 with being opinionated.

00:51:44.740 You know,

00:51:45.080 as long as you're willing

00:51:45.860 to take the flack

00:51:46.780 and you're willing

00:51:47.660 to listen to people

00:51:48.400 who might disagree with you,

00:51:49.620 I think people are much more,

00:51:50.980 you know,

00:51:52.240 savvy now about that.

00:51:53.960 And they'd rather watch somebody

00:51:55.180 with a decent opinion

00:51:56.160 than somebody

00:51:57.320 who just tells you

00:51:58.100 that, you know,

00:51:58.540 there's an earthquake

00:51:59.220 in Krakatoa.

00:52:00.620 You know,

00:52:00.940 here's a news program about it

00:52:02.260 and, you know,

00:52:03.080 here's the rest of the news.

00:52:04.000 I think people are liable

00:52:05.780 to be much more kind of specific

00:52:07.740 about what they like.

00:52:09.600 And it won't just be on television.

00:52:11.560 It will be on YouTube.

00:52:12.520 It will be on,

00:52:13.500 you know,

00:52:13.780 different platforms.

00:52:15.140 Podcasting is obviously,

00:52:16.500 you know,

00:52:16.780 still a very popular thing.

00:52:19.280 So I think the major powers

00:52:21.020 like the BBC and ITV

00:52:22.200 will become less powerful

00:52:23.440 over time.

00:52:24.700 And I mean,

00:52:24.960 the BBC is already

00:52:25.660 wrestling with itself.

00:52:26.600 They don't even really know

00:52:27.440 where they are anymore.

00:52:28.720 You know,

00:52:28.940 they tried to hire Matthew Stadlin,

00:52:30.900 which was probably

00:52:31.740 the stupidest idea

00:52:32.700 anybody ever had.

00:52:33.920 And then they decided not to.

00:52:35.600 And you kind of go,

00:52:36.320 well,

00:52:36.420 what was that all about?

00:52:37.600 What,

00:52:37.800 didn't you know

00:52:38.320 that he was a massive,

00:52:39.240 you know,

00:52:40.000 Labourite?

00:52:40.500 Did you not know

00:52:41.140 that he'd been basically

00:52:42.640 having a nervous breakdown

00:52:43.480 on Twitter

00:52:43.920 for the best part

00:52:44.560 of the last two years?

00:52:45.500 I mean,

00:52:46.060 where have you been?

00:52:47.240 And at least have the courage

00:52:48.440 of your convictions

00:52:48.840 and hire him

00:52:49.500 and we can all have

00:52:50.300 a good laugh.

00:52:51.140 You know,

00:52:51.440 I don't even know

00:52:51.920 what Radio 5 Live is about anyway.

00:52:53.400 I haven't listened to it

00:52:53.940 for so long.

00:52:54.520 I don't even know

00:52:54.940 what they do.

00:52:56.320 You know?

00:52:56.680 And Mike,

00:52:57.040 are you,

00:52:58.040 when I say you,

00:52:59.140 I mean TV people.

00:53:00.220 Are you...

00:53:01.360 I've never been described

00:53:02.120 as TV people before,

00:53:03.320 but listen,

00:53:03.740 I'll take it.

00:53:04.280 You are now.

00:53:04.580 You are now.

00:53:06.720 Are you,

00:53:07.520 do you consider us a threat?

00:53:09.460 Are you worried about

00:53:10.480 YouTube and podcasts

00:53:11.920 and all that coming to take it?

00:53:13.140 I don't consider anybody a threat,

00:53:14.100 but it might just be me.

00:53:15.800 No,

00:53:16.040 I think the more the merrier.

00:53:17.260 I think the better

00:53:17.940 the landscape is

00:53:19.660 for the more

00:53:20.220 different opinions

00:53:21.540 and,

00:53:22.220 you know,

00:53:22.440 I respect you guys

00:53:23.180 for what you do.

00:53:24.020 I think what you do

00:53:24.600 is great.

00:53:24.940 I don't listen to everything

00:53:27.480 that you do

00:53:27.980 because nobody's got the time.

00:53:30.060 But,

00:53:30.460 no,

00:53:30.800 I think,

00:53:31.100 I think absolutely

00:53:31.840 the more diverse opinion

00:53:34.240 out there,

00:53:34.860 the better.

00:53:35.820 You know,

00:53:36.040 and I,

00:53:36.400 you know,

00:53:37.060 I can't imagine anything worse

00:53:38.200 than people just agreeing with me.

00:53:40.160 I don't want anyone

00:53:40.760 to really agree with me.

00:53:41.880 I have much better time

00:53:42.760 when people don't agree.

00:53:44.100 But what I would like to see

00:53:45.280 is a bit more tolerance

00:53:46.880 of different opinions,

00:53:48.260 you know,

00:53:48.540 all round,

00:53:49.320 whereby,

00:53:50.200 you know,

00:53:50.380 I know personally people

00:53:51.520 who have never been asked

00:53:53.220 to appear on the BBC

00:53:54.100 because they're considered

00:53:55.000 to be,

00:53:55.400 you know,

00:53:55.680 toxic.

00:53:56.720 Or,

00:53:57.200 you know,

00:53:57.640 you couldn't possibly

00:53:58.320 put them on.

00:53:58.800 I mean,

00:53:58.960 I don't even watch

00:53:59.620 Question Time anymore.

00:54:00.520 Question Time used to be

00:54:01.520 Thursday night fodder for me,

00:54:03.400 no matter what.

00:54:04.120 Same.

00:54:04.500 I would always watch it.

00:54:05.340 I can't remember

00:54:05.800 the last time I watched it

00:54:06.560 because it's so dull,

00:54:08.180 you know.

00:54:09.060 Panorama now

00:54:09.900 is kind of boring.

00:54:11.020 All of the old style stuff

00:54:12.440 has gone.

00:54:13.460 And I think you guys

00:54:15.020 and we maybe

00:54:16.440 to a lesser extent

00:54:17.560 can just be more innovative

00:54:19.020 and we can do things,

00:54:20.460 I mean,

00:54:20.620 I've said to my bosses,

00:54:22.180 I would love to do

00:54:23.220 like some documentary

00:54:24.080 I'd love to do

00:54:25.140 some in-depth,

00:54:26.360 you know,

00:54:27.320 investigations of,

00:54:28.580 you know,

00:54:28.800 stuff that nobody else

00:54:29.980 is really doing

00:54:30.640 because at the moment

00:54:32.000 it's kind of,

00:54:33.200 if it's not on the BBC

00:54:34.080 or dispatches on Channel 4,

00:54:35.860 there's not really much

00:54:36.560 of that going on.

00:54:37.540 And it's hard to do

00:54:38.320 because you need resources,

00:54:39.740 you need a team of people,

00:54:40.760 you need to be able

00:54:41.220 to get things right.

00:54:42.260 Like I said,

00:54:42.820 you know,

00:54:42.960 this business of

00:54:43.640 whether or not pension funds

00:54:45.800 are driving up

00:54:46.440 the price of fuel,

00:54:47.640 that's a great story

00:54:48.800 but you have to really

00:54:50.400 dig into it for a while

00:54:51.400 and it takes a bit of time,

00:54:53.000 it costs a bit of money

00:54:53.640 and I think that

00:54:56.040 the one thing

00:54:56.980 I would say

00:54:57.820 I probably do regret

00:54:58.720 is the sort of upsurge

00:55:00.180 of what I would regard

00:55:01.860 as kind of shills,

00:55:03.040 dodgy types on YouTube,

00:55:05.180 people who sell

00:55:05.980 themselves to people

00:55:08.100 as if they're telling them

00:55:09.140 some kind of conspiracy theory

00:55:10.400 and we get a lot of this now,

00:55:12.240 you know,

00:55:12.440 it's a lot more frequent

00:55:13.260 than it used to be,

00:55:14.540 you know,

00:55:14.920 like I've had the,

00:55:16.120 you know,

00:55:16.460 the Russian bots after me,

00:55:18.880 you know,

00:55:19.220 for, you know,

00:55:20.180 being too pro-Ukraine,

00:55:21.540 I've had, you know,

00:55:23.020 the anti-vax crowd

00:55:24.280 saying to me

00:55:24.960 that we should be covering,

00:55:25.920 you know,

00:55:26.120 people who are injured

00:55:26.760 by vaccines,

00:55:28.020 you know,

00:55:28.340 all of which we've,

00:55:29.320 you know,

00:55:29.580 we've covered all of these things

00:55:30.740 but you get sort of labelled

00:55:31.960 as, you know,

00:55:32.980 I'm in the pay of Bill Gates,

00:55:34.420 the World Economic Forum

00:55:35.380 and you just kind of go,

00:55:37.080 come on guys.

00:55:38.000 Yeah, you control the opposition

00:55:38.680 just like us, mate.

00:55:39.500 Yeah, when did you take

00:55:40.120 the envelopes

00:55:40.820 and it's like,

00:55:41.420 you know, guys,

00:55:42.180 and I know they're probably

00:55:42.880 not as big of a deal

00:55:43.920 as they make out

00:55:44.920 but there's a lot more

00:55:45.540 of them than there were

00:55:46.180 and I think they get encouraged

00:55:47.900 to be the way they are

00:55:48.860 by certain unscrupulous people

00:55:50.340 who make money out of it,

00:55:51.820 you know,

00:55:52.620 and I think it would be nice

00:55:53.660 if they would disappear

00:55:54.480 but equally,

00:55:55.500 it's not for me to say

00:55:56.200 who should be disappearing,

00:55:58.060 you know,

00:55:58.280 they have to stand

00:55:59.560 on their own merits

00:56:01.060 but I'd like people

00:56:02.860 to be slightly more,

00:56:04.380 I suppose,

00:56:05.300 thoughtful

00:56:05.660 about who they believe

00:56:06.920 and who they don't believe,

00:56:07.820 you know?

00:56:08.520 Mike,

00:56:08.860 do you not worry

00:56:09.400 in this fragmented

00:56:11.420 media landscape

00:56:12.440 that that's just going to mean

00:56:13.760 we're all going to be

00:56:14.360 in our own little silos

00:56:15.480 and we're going to talk

00:56:16.680 to each other less

00:56:17.600 and we're going to share ideas

00:56:19.340 less as a result

00:56:20.260 because if you want

00:56:21.440 right of centre content,

00:56:22.580 you're going to go

00:56:22.940 to this broadcast,

00:56:23.860 if you want left wing content,

00:56:25.040 you're going to go to this,

00:56:26.100 if you want kind of

00:56:26.900 a more libertarian content,

00:56:28.440 you're going to go over here

00:56:29.240 and really,

00:56:30.600 the ideas aren't going

00:56:31.900 to cross pollinate.

00:56:32.840 Well, there's a danger of that

00:56:33.740 but then that's up to us,

00:56:34.740 isn't it?

00:56:35.160 I mean,

00:56:35.360 it's up to us to make sure

00:56:36.320 that that doesn't happen

00:56:37.200 by making sure

00:56:38.440 that we encourage others

00:56:39.840 who maybe we don't believe,

00:56:41.580 like you were saying,

00:56:42.460 Constantine,

00:56:42.780 you get guests on here

00:56:44.720 who you don't necessarily

00:56:46.180 think would fit

00:56:47.460 into your world

00:56:48.400 or in your particular

00:56:49.540 frame of reference

00:56:50.620 and then the people

00:56:51.940 that like you

00:56:52.700 will have a chance

00:56:54.140 to look at that

00:56:54.700 and I think it's up

00:56:55.980 to us all

00:56:56.560 to do that.

00:56:57.980 I mean,

00:56:58.340 there are certain things

00:56:59.100 that I have said,

00:57:01.300 like I will not have

00:57:02.340 these eco nutters

00:57:04.180 on the shows

00:57:05.380 that I do

00:57:05.820 just because I don't think

00:57:06.640 they deserve to get

00:57:07.700 the oxygen publicity

00:57:08.440 but people know

00:57:09.680 they exist

00:57:10.260 and there are plenty

00:57:10.860 of people who

00:57:11.540 argue with me

00:57:12.880 about it on Twitter.

00:57:14.420 I think it's down to us

00:57:15.560 not to become too insular

00:57:17.140 and to make sure

00:57:18.500 that, you know,

00:57:19.520 we continue to bring

00:57:20.700 things to be.

00:57:21.240 I mean,

00:57:21.400 I genuinely have been

00:57:22.420 surprised at how

00:57:23.340 sometimes I'll say something

00:57:24.660 and people go,

00:57:25.880 I didn't know that.

00:57:26.680 You know,

00:57:26.800 I had no idea

00:57:27.320 that that was the case

00:57:28.120 and, you know,

00:57:28.760 I think it's about education,

00:57:29.900 it's about information,

00:57:32.000 certainly not about

00:57:32.880 misinformation,

00:57:33.700 it's not about

00:57:34.420 censoring things.

00:57:36.920 I think the more people

00:57:37.900 know the better

00:57:38.540 because I think

00:57:39.120 I trust people

00:57:39.880 to make sensible choices.

00:57:42.200 The one worry

00:57:43.080 that I have, Mike,

00:57:44.360 is that,

00:57:44.720 and we are constantly

00:57:45.460 battling against this,

00:57:46.680 is that you do see

00:57:48.040 some channels

00:57:48.800 that are captured

00:57:49.960 by their own audience.

00:57:52.060 You know,

00:57:52.360 and they...

00:57:52.640 Like the BBC again,

00:57:53.380 we're talking about.

00:57:53.800 Yeah, exactly.

00:57:55.040 I don't even know

00:57:55.820 that that's true

00:57:56.380 about the BBC.

00:57:56.920 I think a lot of

00:57:57.880 what their audience

00:57:58.680 used to be

00:57:59.220 is actually switching off

00:58:00.280 and they're losing

00:58:00.880 massively in terms

00:58:02.140 of license pairs.

00:58:03.100 Yeah, I'm sure

00:58:03.440 that's true.

00:58:04.020 Actually,

00:58:04.420 they're not captured

00:58:05.060 by their audience.

00:58:05.840 What they are

00:58:06.300 is they're captured

00:58:06.860 by a small group

00:58:07.840 of elite people

00:58:09.440 at the top.

00:58:10.120 Elite,

00:58:10.540 in inverted commas,

00:58:11.420 at the top.

00:58:11.900 Well, there's an awful lot

00:58:12.480 of them.

00:58:13.020 I mean,

00:58:13.260 I'm always constantly

00:58:14.140 amazed at the numbers

00:58:15.080 of people who appear

00:58:16.080 on the BBC news shows

00:58:17.260 and you go,

00:58:18.980 who's that?

00:58:19.800 Science editor?

00:58:20.640 He's like,

00:58:20.820 never seen them before.

00:58:21.920 Where did they come?

00:58:22.500 Yeah, Washington correspondent.

00:58:24.000 You know, incredible.

00:58:25.380 So you mean like

00:58:26.320 smaller things?

00:58:27.000 Yeah.

00:58:27.420 So, you know,

00:58:28.200 they're doing very well

00:58:29.820 and they become,

00:58:30.680 in a sense,

00:58:31.080 captured by their own audience.

00:58:32.200 They're never going

00:58:32.660 to give anything

00:58:33.320 to their audience

00:58:34.500 which contradicts

00:58:35.440 their worldview

00:58:35.920 because they don't want

00:58:37.020 to antagonize,

00:58:38.000 alienate them

00:58:38.540 and therefore make less money.

00:58:39.480 I mean,

00:58:39.640 I think that's right

00:58:40.360 and I mean,

00:58:40.840 I've come up against that

00:58:41.900 as I say in the last

00:58:42.700 couple of years

00:58:43.180 because part of our audience

00:58:45.040 for a while

00:58:45.720 because during the lockdown

00:58:47.180 we were very anti-lockdown,

00:58:48.720 we were very anti-sort of,

00:58:49.820 you know,

00:58:50.320 being told what to do

00:58:51.180 by the government.

00:58:52.120 People then expected us

00:58:53.260 to be sort of,

00:58:54.760 in some ways,

00:58:55.560 anti-COVID

00:58:56.640 and they expected us

00:58:57.700 to come out

00:58:58.120 and say that COVID

00:58:58.900 was a hoax

00:58:59.500 and, you know,

00:59:00.380 people shouldn't get vaccinated

00:59:01.500 and we didn't do that,

00:59:02.520 they didn't like it

00:59:03.200 but I think you've got to

00:59:04.160 stay true to what it is

00:59:05.240 that you believe.

00:59:05.980 You know,

00:59:06.120 you have to take the path

00:59:07.220 which sometimes means

00:59:09.220 you're going to be,

00:59:09.780 you'll be losing people.

00:59:10.700 I mean,

00:59:10.840 I lost something like

00:59:13.020 2,000 followers

00:59:14.040 one weekend

00:59:14.800 on Twitter

00:59:15.840 because I made a joke

00:59:16.880 about,

00:59:17.980 you know,

00:59:18.120 not a joke exactly

00:59:19.000 but somebody went,

00:59:19.640 don't you think it's important

00:59:20.460 to do vaccine damage?

00:59:21.960 You know,

00:59:22.120 and I went,

00:59:22.420 not really.

00:59:23.340 Literally a throwaway line,

00:59:24.420 you know,

00:59:24.620 and they all went,

00:59:25.240 that's disgrace,

00:59:26.100 you know,

00:59:26.520 he's in the pay of Bill Gates

00:59:27.660 and I'm like,

00:59:29.000 well,

00:59:29.280 you know,

00:59:30.000 the fact is

00:59:30.620 we've vaccinated

00:59:31.440 40 million people

00:59:32.720 and 400 people

00:59:34.420 have had a problem

00:59:35.280 and yes,

00:59:36.320 there are issues with that

00:59:37.560 but you've got to be

00:59:38.460 very careful how you do it

00:59:39.480 and we have actually covered it

00:59:40.560 but, you know,

00:59:41.400 what I won't say

00:59:42.100 is that this is a,

00:59:43.620 you know,

00:59:44.100 deliberate ploy

00:59:44.840 to somehow,

00:59:46.140 you know,

00:59:46.560 microchip people

00:59:47.440 so that we can be told

00:59:48.640 what to do

00:59:49.340 a week on Saturday,

00:59:51.060 you know,

00:59:51.460 when you go out.

00:59:52.240 It's not true.

00:59:53.300 You don't need a microchip

00:59:54.220 for that, mate.

00:59:54.760 We've got the police

00:59:55.440 to come out.

00:59:55.920 Exactly right.

00:59:56.680 But that's what I mean,

00:59:57.320 you know,

00:59:57.540 I think you can be sensible

00:59:58.700 and you can have your views

01:00:01.360 and you have to not be scared

01:00:03.080 of losing your audience.

01:00:03.920 I think there are some

01:00:04.640 broadcasters,

01:00:05.640 I'm not going to name any,

01:00:06.840 who kind of,

01:00:08.340 I would say,

01:00:10.080 exploit their audience

01:00:11.080 by continuing a narrative

01:00:12.820 which they know

01:00:13.780 isn't true

01:00:14.340 and to talk about things

01:00:16.200 like,

01:00:16.560 you know,

01:00:16.820 the WEF

01:00:17.960 and Bill Gates

01:00:19.220 and to talk about

01:00:19.900 this is the biggest,

01:00:20.680 you know,

01:00:20.980 grab of personal data

01:00:23.760 that anybody's ever seen.

01:00:24.980 What do they want to do

01:00:25.740 with it?

01:00:26.620 You know,

01:00:26.900 and we should all be vigilant

01:00:27.680 about it,

01:00:28.460 you know,

01:00:28.700 of course,

01:00:29.340 but,

01:00:29.700 you know,

01:00:30.280 don't frighten people.

01:00:31.240 I think a lot of people

01:00:32.140 out there are scared to death

01:00:33.440 because they genuinely believe

01:00:35.360 that,

01:00:36.120 you know,

01:00:36.560 Klaus Schwab's coming for them.

01:00:38.680 You know,

01:00:39.220 he's not,

01:00:40.340 is he?

01:00:40.640 yet.

01:00:43.100 See?

01:00:44.060 I see what you did there.

01:00:45.620 But that's the thing,

01:00:46.600 you know,

01:00:46.920 and I just,

01:00:47.520 I just think it's really dangerous

01:00:49.020 that,

01:00:49.460 you know,

01:00:50.120 you know,

01:00:50.400 let's not lose

01:00:51.140 the fact that,

01:00:53.920 you know,

01:00:54.240 logic is generally speaking

01:00:55.720 the best place to be.

01:00:57.660 Spoken like a true

01:00:58.460 Bill Gates shill there,

01:00:59.440 Mike.

01:00:59.560 Of course.

01:01:00.540 Thank you.

01:01:01.140 Good to have you back on the show.

01:01:02.520 Always a pleasure chatting with you.

01:01:04.760 We're going to do a couple of questions

01:01:06.200 for our supporters only

01:01:07.500 after the interview,

01:01:08.740 but before we do that,

01:01:09.620 we've got our final questions.

01:01:10.640 As always,

01:01:11.740 which is what's the one thing

01:01:13.020 that we're not talking about

01:01:14.160 as a society

01:01:15.000 that you think we should be?

01:01:16.660 Now,

01:01:16.900 that's interesting

01:01:17.540 because it's hardly anything

01:01:19.680 we don't talk about

01:01:20.640 that you can find

01:01:22.100 where nobody's doing anything.

01:01:24.260 I think one of the things

01:01:25.340 that we don't really say

01:01:26.600 often enough

01:01:27.240 is that most people

01:01:28.900 don't give a shit

01:01:29.760 about trans.

01:01:31.300 No one.

01:01:32.280 Most people I know

01:01:33.260 who are sensible,

01:01:35.320 ordinary citizens

01:01:36.140 of this world,

01:01:37.860 you know,

01:01:38.420 not only do they not know

01:01:39.520 anybody who's trans,

01:01:40.420 but actually

01:01:41.000 they don't care

01:01:42.040 about what they think.

01:01:43.840 And that's not for me

01:01:44.680 to say that I'm therefore

01:01:45.780 going to try and get

01:01:46.580 your window smashed in

01:01:47.700 by trans activists.

01:01:49.300 But, you know,

01:01:50.280 we had a survey the other day

01:01:51.660 in which it said,

01:01:52.840 you know,

01:01:53.040 people think

01:01:53.640 there's a lot more trans people

01:01:55.080 in Britain

01:01:55.700 than there really are,

01:01:56.760 a lot more minorities,

01:01:57.620 because they get fed

01:01:58.480 because they get fed

01:01:58.500 this constant diet

01:01:59.400 of kind of,

01:01:59.940 you know,

01:02:01.040 the gay movements,

01:02:02.560 the, you know,

01:02:03.100 the queer movements,

01:02:04.200 the curious movement,

01:02:05.480 whatever the fuck they are,

01:02:06.800 you know,

01:02:07.200 they're all, you know,

01:02:08.180 having a great impact

01:02:09.180 on our world.

01:02:09.840 They're really not.

01:02:11.080 You know,

01:02:11.340 I think the truth is

01:02:12.680 that the trans community

01:02:13.580 is something like

01:02:14.100 0.005%

01:02:16.000 of the actual population.

01:02:18.340 And it doesn't really,

01:02:19.680 you know,

01:02:20.020 all of this crap

01:02:21.360 about JK Rowling,

01:02:23.380 about, you know,

01:02:24.700 whether or not

01:02:25.340 trans people

01:02:25.980 can be played by people

01:02:26.960 who aren't trans

01:02:27.760 in movies,

01:02:28.500 you know,

01:02:29.300 it's really,

01:02:29.760 nobody cares

01:02:30.560 and people don't

01:02:31.260 talk about that,

01:02:32.140 I don't think.

01:02:33.400 Thank you so much.

01:02:34.520 If people want to

01:02:35.280 find you online,

01:02:36.080 where is the best place

01:02:36.900 to do that?

01:02:37.500 Well,

01:02:37.720 Twitter is where I'm mostly,

01:02:38.960 which is at IROMG,

01:02:40.340 the Independent Republic

01:02:41.020 of Mike Graham.

01:02:41.800 Some people mistakenly

01:02:42.760 think it's Iron Mike,

01:02:43.840 which they call me,

01:02:44.560 which have never been called

01:02:45.560 and they have a go at me

01:02:46.760 going,

01:02:47.000 what sort of conceited

01:02:47.780 arsehole calls himself

01:02:48.820 Iron Mike?

01:02:49.440 It's not a name.

01:02:50.980 I don't call myself that.

01:02:51.240 There's a UFC fighter

01:02:52.120 who calls himself

01:02:52.720 Iron Mike.

01:02:53.100 Well,

01:02:53.260 there was Iron Mike Tyson,

01:02:54.360 of course.

01:02:54.520 Yeah,

01:02:54.820 and Iron Mike Chandler,

01:02:56.800 I think.

01:02:56.900 There's probably a few of them,

01:02:58.000 but I'm certainly

01:02:58.700 not one of them.

01:03:00.600 I'm on Facebook as well,

01:03:02.080 but better or worse,

01:03:03.200 and just find me

01:03:03.780 on Talk TV,

01:03:04.900 which is where I'm

01:03:05.520 pretty much all the time.

01:03:06.760 Perfect.

01:03:07.280 Thank you very much, Mike.

01:03:08.360 Been a pleasure as always.

01:03:09.440 And thank you for watching

01:03:10.520 and listening.

01:03:11.340 We will see you

01:03:12.060 with another brilliant episode

01:03:13.160 like this one

01:03:13.840 in a few days.

01:03:15.760 Thanks for watching.

01:03:16.660 I'll see you soon.

01:03:17.960 And for those of you

01:03:18.640 who like your

01:03:19.080 Trigonometry on the go,

01:03:20.300 it's also available

01:03:21.140 as a podcast.

01:03:22.480 Take care

01:03:22.940 and see you soon, guys.

01:03:24.140 Listen,

01:03:26.740 I'm a great believer

01:03:27.400 in owning nothing,

01:03:28.340 you know?

01:03:29.080 Rent everything,

01:03:29.960 because that way

01:03:30.480 nobody can come after you.

01:03:32.140 Thank you.

01:03:33.140 Thank you.

01:03:33.520 Thank you.

01:03:33.580 Thank you.

01:03:33.620 Thank you.

01:03:33.680 Thank you.

01:03:33.740 Thank you.

01:03:33.760 Thank you.

01:03:33.780 Thank you.

01:03:33.820 Thank you.

01:03:33.840 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - June 20, 2022

＂Politicians Ignore Most Issues People Actually Care About＂ - Mike Graham

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