TRIGGERnometry - ＂Politicians Ignore Most Issues People Actually Care About＂ - Mike Graham

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00:00:31.020 Unfortunately, these do-gooders have this view that everybody's got goodness in their heart.

00:00:34.940 Sorry to disappoint you, everybody hasn't got goodness in their heart, you know?

00:00:38.900 And some people are coming here because they want to make money, they don't want to pay tax,

00:00:42.500 and they want to make use of whatever it is that's here that they want that they can't get at home.

00:00:46.380 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:55.300 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:56.620 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:57.720 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:03.400 Our brilliant and returning guest today is a journalist, radio, and TV presenter, Mike Graham.

00:01:08.240 Welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:01:09.160 Thank you very much.

00:01:09.880 I guess you must have liked it last time.

00:01:11.120 We did.

00:01:11.660 You guys have gone up in the world a bit.

00:01:13.460 Thanks to you, Mike.

00:01:14.400 It was your appearance that changed it.

00:01:15.760 Listen, Joe Rogan talks about you, you know, what more can you want?

00:01:18.100 Yeah, we're very pleased with how it's going, and you're doing very well as well.

00:01:21.840 We are.

00:01:22.260 Before we get into that, just for people who are new to the show who didn't see our first interview,

00:01:27.740 tell everybody a little bit about your backstory.

00:01:30.260 Who are you?

00:01:30.900 How are you?

00:01:31.300 Where you are?

00:01:31.680 What has been your journey through life?

00:01:33.000 Yeah, I mean, I came to broadcasting via newspapers when they used to be dangerous,

00:01:38.780 and they used to sell an awful lot of papers, and we used to drink an awful lot.

00:01:42.600 And, you know, it was great fun.

00:01:44.020 So I sort of got into journalism straight out of university.

00:01:47.300 I didn't finish university.

00:01:48.360 I just kind of decided to go into it.

00:01:50.300 Never learned shorthand.

00:01:51.880 Never really learned all the things you were supposed to learn now.

00:01:54.440 Never studied media.

00:01:56.140 I don't think they had media studies when I was around.

00:01:58.980 Did economics and politics for a bit.

00:02:01.260 Got into Fleet Street just by making a phone call to the right person at the right time.

00:02:05.640 Got a shift.

00:02:07.080 Worked in America for 10 years.

00:02:08.580 Came back.

00:02:09.140 Got fired a few times from various different organs, including the Daily Express and the Daily Mirror.

00:02:15.200 Worked for Piers Morgan for a while.

00:02:16.800 He's now back in the fold.

00:02:18.500 We're both working now for the same company again.

00:02:20.060 And I sort of ran out of road with newspapers because it was around about, I guess, the start of the century,

00:02:27.500 which sounds like a long time ago now.

00:02:29.280 Right after 9-11, sort of 2005-ish, I suppose.

00:02:32.760 And I was offered a job in radio and I thought, okay, I'll give that a go.

00:02:38.360 And now I've gone from working in radio initially with a place in Scotland.

00:02:44.060 Went through Talk Sport.

00:02:45.300 Ended up in Talk Radio.

00:02:46.200 Now we're a talk TV station.

00:02:48.420 And, you know, the rest is history, I suppose.

00:02:50.500 And here I am.

00:02:51.820 You'll have to keep interrupting me.

00:02:53.420 No, that's fine.

00:02:54.120 You just do three-hour shows.

00:02:56.060 You just talk endlessly, don't you?

00:02:57.340 It's true.

00:02:57.780 I mean, I do have this, I suppose I was born to do this job, you know, because I find it very difficult to stop talking as opposed to start...

00:03:06.420 We'll stop you.

00:03:07.180 But before we get into some of the stuff that's going on now, you've obviously, like you say, you've chronicled quite a long time in journalism.

00:03:15.020 How has the whole world of media changed in your lifetime and in the time that you've been there?

00:03:20.100 Well, do you know, last night I was watching, there's a great documentary, and I don't normally give the BBC any credit for anything,

00:03:24.500 but BBC Four, I've got this great documentary series about Margaret Thatcher, and I watched the first one last night.

00:03:30.680 And the amazing thing is partly to see how politics is covered back in those days,

00:03:35.580 and they start with when she was in opposition, so it's before she won the election in 1979.

00:03:40.000 And, you know, it's just a lot more old-fashioned looking, you know, all the interviewers are men, they're all white.

00:03:47.820 The good old days.

00:03:48.920 Yeah, I mean, you know, there are some people that like that.

00:03:51.800 I mean, now, of course, if you're a middle-aged white man, you've got no chance at the BBC, you know.

00:03:57.180 But, you know, she was very much more direct.

00:04:00.320 I think the world has become a much more sophisticated place.

00:04:03.500 I think the voters are more sophisticated.

00:04:05.420 The public are more sophisticated.

00:04:07.080 They have the benefit of seeing guys like yourselves.

00:04:10.240 They have the benefit of seeing all sorts of other things in different media.

00:04:13.960 But back then, you know, the BBC was kind of it.

00:04:16.340 You know, if you were not being interviewed by somebody on Panorama or you weren't doing, you know, the news, there was really nowhere to go.

00:04:24.600 And I think Fleet Street particularly was a very much more important place.

00:04:28.160 I mean, they still got the ability, I think, to influence the way people feel about things, but to a much smaller extent.

00:04:34.200 And I think now we're in the age where politicians can kind of present themselves to the public in such a different variety of ways that they can kind of direct the narrative, if you like.

00:04:44.780 I mean, Boris Johnson, you know, has been, I think, an incredible lesson in just how to do whatever the hell you want and keep getting away with it.

00:04:53.840 Because I think the actual substance of journalism, I think, has disappeared to some extent.

00:04:59.660 You know, it's all about a 24-hour news cycle now, whereas it was never like that.

00:05:03.600 Now, you know, I said on Monday when Boris was going through this vote of no confidence, he's going to get through it.

00:05:09.260 He's going to turn.

00:05:09.820 I mean, there were still people, pundits, talking heads, talking on all sorts of different outlets saying, he's done, he's finished, he's toast.

00:05:16.360 He'll be out by the end of the week.

00:05:17.720 Some were even saying he's going to lose the vote.

00:05:19.780 None of that happened.

00:05:20.740 And I think they're getting it wrong more often now than they get it right.

00:05:24.020 Why do you think that is, Mike?

00:05:25.440 I think it's because they're out of touch.

00:05:27.640 I don't think, you know, I can't be the only person that talks to ordinary people.

00:05:30.800 But we do talk to a lot of ordinary people on talk TV.

00:05:34.280 And, you know, you get a sense of how people feel.

00:05:36.760 And in London, it's a very different world.

00:05:39.160 You know, London has become a little island of sort of wokery to me.

00:05:43.480 It's a Labour stronghold.

00:05:45.460 The only place Labour won an election result in the general election in 2019 was Putney.

00:05:51.140 And you think, really?

00:05:52.880 You know, Sadiq Khan won another term.

00:05:56.060 Labour will probably win the next one.

00:05:57.520 And I just think that the journalists are all now from more and more from private education.

00:06:02.660 They're from Oxbridge, particularly the broadcast one.

00:06:05.620 And they're all sort of cut from the same cloth.

00:06:07.380 I don't think they would know a working class person if they fell on one.

00:06:10.340 You know, maybe they've got a cleaner who's probably from Romania or something, you know.

00:06:14.120 But I don't think they understand the British public at all.

00:06:17.460 No, and that disconnect seems to be happening more and more.

00:06:20.620 Well, particularly when you look at places like the BBC, where you just think, how do you represent ordinary people in any shape or form?

00:06:28.440 No.

00:06:28.860 And they talk about diversity, but actually they haven't got any diversity, you know, because all the black and brown people in the BBC are all middle class. 1.00

00:06:35.900 They've all been to the same colleges, the same schools.

00:06:38.600 You know, Rita Chakrabarti is, it doesn't matter what colour she is, she's the same person as Hugh Edwards is.

00:06:44.520 You know, even though they come from different places, they have the same outlook.

00:06:47.980 And now they're talking about actually finding a space for underprivileged white male kids.

00:06:53.520 You know, maybe they're going to bring some in, make the toast maybe, if they have toast.

00:06:57.920 But they have such a disdain, I think, for ordinary people. 1.00

00:07:01.100 Because they think if you are in any way right wing, you're just a racist or you're just stupid. 1.00

00:07:06.820 If you wanted Brexit, you must be an idiot. 1.00

00:07:09.020 You know, they've got this incredibly sort of entitled view that, and I don't know where this came from, 1.00

00:07:13.340 that only they have got the right answer.

00:07:15.380 I was listening this morning to the Today programme, which I've started doing recently

00:07:19.240 because they hit the kind of interviews at a certain time, about 20 past 8 in the morning,

00:07:24.880 and they had Michael Gove on.

00:07:26.360 And this guy, I don't even know who it was, it wasn't Robinson, it was whoever his mate was,

00:07:31.020 really badgering Michael Gove, as if, you know, he was some kind of war criminal.

00:07:36.340 You're kind of going, sorry, what's wrong with you?

00:07:38.980 If you want to ask questions and be challenging, that's one thing.

00:07:41.300 But to continually kind of badger the guy, it's not good radio, it's not good listening.

00:07:46.560 It's like, it sounds wrong.

00:07:47.120 Where does that come from, Mike?

00:07:48.160 Because in terms of what we do, that is actually one of the things we're doing the opposite of,

00:07:53.100 and I think part of our success is that we try to talk to people with different opinions,

00:07:58.480 and we, you know, we politely challenge them where we disagree.

00:08:01.340 But generally, we want to get out of you what you think.

00:08:03.720 Now, we may disagree with what you think, but we want to just get it down crystal clear,

00:08:08.160 what do you actually believe in.

00:08:10.120 And the best way to do that is to let the person say it.

00:08:12.660 So when does, where does this idea come from that someone has to be like interrupted every

00:08:16.920 three seconds and challenged all the time?

00:08:19.040 I think it comes from their own sort of psyche where they have meetings where they maybe give

00:08:23.900 each other gold stars for, you know, putting, pinning Michael Gove out and making him look 0.99

00:08:28.560 stupid or making him, you know, feel nervous or sweaty or something. 0.99

00:08:32.480 But yeah, it's true. 1.00

00:08:33.360 It's what they do.

00:08:34.000 They were kind of saying things to him about the cleaners, for example.

00:08:38.700 I mean, you know, at one point, I found this hilarious.

00:08:40.620 At one point during the Sue Gray report, aftermath in the Commons, you know, Keir Starmer accused

00:08:46.260 Boris Johnson of making the cleaners clean up.

00:08:49.400 And you go, that's actually, it's actually what they do.

00:08:52.740 You know, they had to come in and clean.

00:08:54.360 And you go, well, yeah, there was vomit.

00:08:56.940 Okay.

00:08:57.440 There was wine.

00:08:58.980 Well, you know, people are employed as cleaners.

00:09:00.640 I don't wish to be disparaging about cleaners, but if you're a cleaner, you clean and that's

00:09:04.620 your job.

00:09:05.200 So I'm sorry if you don't like what you're cleaning, but, you know, that's kind of what

00:09:08.480 you do.

00:09:09.000 And they were saying to Gove, you know, how does it feel to be part of the ruling class

00:09:13.020 that was horrible to cleaners? 0.98

00:09:15.100 And I thought to myself, you know, if I was Gove, I would have said, have you got a cleaner?

00:09:18.280 I bet you have.

00:09:19.260 I bet somebody cleans your house, don't they?

00:09:21.280 Have you ever been rude to anybody?

00:09:22.580 Are you telling me nobody?

00:09:23.880 And they were literally admonishing him for having a culture of rudeness inside of number 10.

00:09:29.120 And it's like, one, that's not a news story.

00:09:31.760 Two, it's none of your business.

00:09:32.780 And three, it's actually piss off.

00:09:35.020 I mean, that's what I would have said.

00:09:36.520 And it's not.

00:09:36.940 That's why you're not a politician, Mike.

00:09:38.800 I suppose so.

00:09:40.000 Well, in the old days, press got used to thump them, didn't they?

00:09:42.680 They did.

00:09:43.260 Yeah.

00:09:43.480 Well, I mean, lots of them did.

00:09:44.460 Bernard Ingram, who was Thatcher's press secretary, thumped a BBC guy once for asking the wrong

00:09:48.600 question and punched him in the stomach.

00:09:50.760 You know, it was great.

00:09:52.160 Nobody got hurt.

00:09:53.220 You know.

00:09:53.740 I think somebody might have got hurt.

00:09:55.420 But not much, though.

00:09:56.280 Listen, if you're a journalist and you haven't been punched by someone, you're not doing

00:09:59.840 your job.

00:10:01.220 There we go.

00:10:02.360 But, Mike, it's not just the BBC to give them their due.

00:10:05.120 It's also Channel 4.

00:10:06.340 They're even more to the left of the BBC.

00:10:09.000 Channel 4, which unusually, for me, has somehow ended up in the reverse situation with the football.

00:10:14.800 Because I was watching the football the other night, and Channel 4 were covering it, right?

00:10:19.060 This ridiculous, I don't even know what it's called.

00:10:21.260 The League of Nations Football or something.

00:10:24.040 And before the Hungarian game, which was equally hilarious for different reasons, they had 1.00

00:10:30.400 some bloke I'd never seen in my life before on the pitch with some woman who apparently

00:10:36.040 is a female footballer called Nobs, I think her name is.

00:10:40.100 Somebody, Nobs.

00:10:41.320 Jordan Nobs.

00:10:42.500 And I'm going, how did Channel 4 end up with this?

00:10:44.740 The BBC have got women's football.

00:10:46.460 Channel 4 have got real football.

00:10:47.940 And you're kind of going, how did this happen?

00:10:50.240 Channel 4 was supposed to be the people that represent the underrepresented. 1.00

00:10:52.840 Instead of which, we've now got mainstream Gary Lineker and people saying,

00:10:56.760 isn't it great, you know, here's the new Chelsea manager.

00:10:59.580 And you're going, sorry, who?

00:11:01.060 No, it's the women's Chelsea manager.

00:11:02.500 You're not allowed to say it's women's football. 0.91

00:11:04.040 You just have to say it's football because you have to pretend that it's as good.

00:11:07.460 But everybody knows it's not.

00:11:09.520 And it's like, you know, surely Channel 4 should have the women's football

00:11:12.320 and the BBC should have the other stuff.

00:11:14.600 Shouldn't they?

00:11:15.140 I don't know.

00:11:15.520 Yeah, it does feel like that.

00:11:17.640 But if you look at their news report, it's so disgracefully biased.

00:11:22.360 Oh, it really is.

00:11:23.160 Yeah.

00:11:23.560 I mean, Jon Snow was a joke.

00:11:25.340 I mean, he literally, I used to watch Channel 4 and he was just to get annoyed, you know, 0.95

00:11:29.220 because not only was he not very good, but it was so biased and so ridiculous.

00:11:34.340 And I mean, I don't even know what's happening with Channel 4. 0.97

00:11:38.460 Everyone's worried it's going to be sold off and taken over by some horrible, evil,

00:11:42.920 you know, Elon Musk type figure.

00:11:45.560 Good.

00:11:46.280 Hopefully that will happen.

00:11:47.540 But now it seems to be happening in all directions.

00:11:49.700 So, for example, GB News and Talk TV arguably would be, you know, a right wing, a right of centre.

00:11:55.300 And again, sort of just kind of doing what they do, right?

00:11:58.300 And we seem to now ended up in this position because I think the mainstream media slid in a sort of leftward direction for so long.

00:12:05.700 Well, now we've created a world where there is no balance.

00:12:08.360 It's just right and left, right?

00:12:09.700 And I think that's actually healthier because in the end, I mean, Noam Chomsky once said,

00:12:13.720 there's no such thing as not being biased because wherever you come from,

00:12:17.420 you have the training or the kind of upbringing or, you know, you bring with you wherever it was you came from.

00:12:22.260 You cannot be unbiased.

00:12:23.960 So you might as well not pretend that you are, I think.

00:12:26.360 I mean, I always say to people when they go, you're supposed to be unbiased.

00:12:29.060 I'm like, who told you that?

00:12:30.020 I'm not supposed to be unbiased.

00:12:31.280 I am who I am.

00:12:32.360 If you don't like what I'm saying, ring me up and argue with me.

00:12:35.600 If I want to get somebody on who disagrees with me, then that's what I'll do.

00:12:38.660 But there's no point in me pretending that I see everything the same way.

00:12:42.460 I mean, not to pick on Rita Chakrabarti again,

00:12:45.080 she said at the end of one of the Jubilee sort of segments that they did on Thursday or Friday of Jubilee weekend,

00:12:51.320 she said, we realise this is not everybody's cup of tea.

00:12:54.540 And it's like, well, what would you say that for?

00:12:55.920 Would you have said that if you were covering the Glastonbury Festival?

00:12:58.680 Because that's not my cup of tea.

00:13:00.140 I don't want to see 400 BBC people sent to Glastonbury to have a jolly and take a load of ecstasy

00:13:05.180 and pretend it's public service broadcasting, because it isn't. 0.98

00:13:08.060 You know, it's like ridiculous, totally mad. 0.97

00:13:10.720 So they kid themselves that they're balanced. 0.99

00:13:13.080 I think they actually genuinely believe that they are.

00:13:15.320 But they're not at all.

00:13:17.200 They're middle class.

00:13:18.000 Most of them sort of champagne socialists.

00:13:20.960 And they think all Tories are evil.

00:13:24.040 You know, I don't know where they get that from.

00:13:26.140 And it just, and the thing is, it's like you said, they don't seem to realise it.

00:13:32.320 No.

00:13:32.800 And then you watch the content that they produce and the way they question people.

00:13:37.480 And you go, this is so openly, nakedly biased.

00:13:41.140 Yeah.

00:13:41.280 And I don't even consider myself right of centre.

00:13:43.520 I don't.

00:13:44.140 But I'm watching this and going, you're patronising me.

00:13:47.600 Yeah.

00:13:47.760 You're telling me what to think.

00:13:49.340 Why not treat me like an adult, interview the person, and then I'll make up my own mind.

00:13:54.540 Right.

00:13:55.120 I mean, only the BBC would have conversations with their audience, you know.

00:13:59.100 Is it wrong to fly the flag?

00:14:00.900 You know.

00:14:01.260 Well, no.

00:14:02.040 It's not wrong to fly the flag.

00:14:03.420 That's the end of the debate, isn't it?

00:14:05.100 So you'd be okay with the Ukrainian flag, though.

00:14:07.440 But you can't fly a Union Jack, because obviously that would make you a racist.

00:14:10.980 It's a very perverse way to approach the world, you know.

00:14:13.720 Especially from the national broadcast.

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00:15:34.060 Particularly as an immigrant to this country, I find it very odd how in my lifetime, particularly in my lifetime,

00:15:39.840 I know this has always been a British problem.

00:15:41.940 Like, I think it was Orwell that talked about this as well.

00:15:45.080 How the intelligentsia in Britain would happily talk down their own country.

00:15:49.160 But it's sort of, particularly in my lifetime, since I came to this country in 95,

00:15:54.040 suddenly, like, being proud of your country in any way has become this deeply shameful thing.

00:15:59.060 And the intelligentsia, of course, used to be quite a small part of Britain.

00:16:03.040 It was kind of, you know, you'd run into these people very rarely.

00:16:05.920 They didn't really have much importance.

00:16:07.260 They were kind of slightly curious oddities who would sort of pop up on, you know, question time once in a while.

00:16:12.220 But Peter Hitchens makes this point a lot, that under Tony Blair, all of our institutions became kind of honeycombed

00:16:18.800 with these so-called intellectuals and these kind of, you know, left-wing ideologues

00:16:23.720 who were, generally speaking, privileged people, mostly white people,

00:16:27.080 who had somehow got to the top in their university level.

00:16:30.100 They somehow got put in charge of quangos, and they somehow got put in charge of political organisations.

00:16:34.860 And now we've got a massive problem, because they're running everything,

00:16:38.420 from the Metropolitan Police to the NHS to, you know, the Border Force, the Civil Service.

00:16:44.380 All of the people that run these things are intrinsically left-wing intellectual ideologues.

00:16:50.080 And they think that, for example, we shouldn't have borders.

00:16:53.220 We should just invite anybody in that can come.

00:16:55.620 You know, we should teach that four-year-old children living in Scotland

00:16:58.780 can become, you know, transgender, if they wish, at the age of four. 0.61

00:17:03.300 I mean, it's madness. It's totally mad. 0.97

00:17:05.780 And you see it everywhere. You see the police now, where every one of their cars,

00:17:10.040 especially the Metropolitan Police, they've all got rainbows on them.

00:17:12.380 Yeah.

00:17:12.940 And rainbows on their level crossings.

00:17:16.060 Right.

00:17:16.600 And you're going, no, this should be apolitical.

00:17:20.780 Right.

00:17:21.200 It should be apolitical. Why is it that they're embracing an ideology?

00:17:25.560 Yeah. And it just turns people off.

00:17:27.360 I mean, I put a tweet out the other day about, I think it was,

00:17:30.680 I can't remember who it was, Nottinghamshire Police or somebody.

00:17:33.560 Who put out this sort of LGBTQIA plus whatever.

00:17:38.220 I don't know. It's becoming like, just put the alphabet in different order

00:17:40.820 and see where it goes.

00:17:42.820 And they put at the end of the tweet, you know,

00:17:45.620 we will be watching the response to this in case of any hate crime.

00:17:51.200 And I went, so what you're now like actually, you know,

00:17:55.180 kind of asking for people to say things which you can then prosecute them for.

00:17:59.020 And I just commented, you know, what if we're just laughing at you?

00:18:02.000 Is that a hate crime?

00:18:03.400 Probably is. 0.98

00:18:03.860 And of course, I got a load of crap from a load of, you know, 1.00

00:18:06.100 gay activists and all that. 0.99

00:18:08.100 But, you know, you're not even allowed to laugh at them.

00:18:10.080 You know, they haven't come for me yet.

00:18:11.140 I mean, they might come bursting through the door, you know, as we sit here.

00:18:14.480 But you do worry that there are some people in the police

00:18:16.580 who would quite like to come bursting through the door

00:18:18.500 because of something you thought or something you said

00:18:22.200 or something you laughed at.

00:18:24.200 And you kind of go, I mean, I got things like from people saying,

00:18:27.240 why would you laugh at people because of their sexuality?

00:18:30.240 And I'm like, well, that's not what I was doing.

00:18:31.500 I was laughing at the fact that the police think it's important

00:18:33.700 to put out a tweet that shows them all holding up a rainbow flag.

00:18:37.600 It's not what they do.

00:18:39.020 I'd like them to put up pictures of them beating somebody,

00:18:41.700 you know, with a rubber truncheon who had committed a crime.

00:18:44.580 That's what I'd like to see.

00:18:45.720 Or, you know, chasing that guy off the bridge who they tasered

00:18:48.340 who was apparently threatening people.

00:18:50.080 And he's now unfortunately dead.

00:18:51.840 But, I mean, that's what the police should be doing.

00:18:53.680 You know, they shouldn't be holding up a rainbow flag and going, 0.98

00:18:55.880 would you like, you know, would you like me to come and talk to you?

00:18:58.220 No, I'd like you to arrest some bad guys.

00:18:59.840 You know, I'd like you to stop people burglaring, you know,

00:19:02.620 burgling my house.

00:19:03.540 How old-fashioned, Mike. 0.98

00:19:04.580 I know, isn't it ridiculous? 0.75

00:19:05.620 I'd like you to stop women from being attacked in the street at midnight

00:19:08.520 when you don't seem to have any cars driving around

00:19:10.940 making sure it doesn't happen, you know. 0.99

00:19:12.480 It'd be really good if you had nobody in your own fucking police force 0.99

00:19:16.060 who actually started, you know, killing people. 1.00

00:19:18.320 That would be good.

00:19:19.600 That'd be good to focus on.

00:19:21.040 The one thing that I find really funny about all of this as well

00:19:24.000 is like, you mentioned football.

00:19:27.120 Football is now this vehicle for the delivery of social justice ideology.

00:19:32.040 Yeah. 0.99

00:19:32.680 Which is about to have a World Cup in fucking Qatar. 0.99

00:19:35.860 In Qatar. 0.99

00:19:37.000 Right.

00:19:37.540 Where the FIFA organisation actually put out,

00:19:40.120 again on, you know, Pride Week, whatever it was,

00:19:42.900 a tweet saying, you know, we're looking forward to Qatar 2022.

00:19:46.820 It will be a festival of diversity and equality.

00:19:50.880 I'm like, are you sure about that?

00:19:52.600 I'm not sure that, you know, 0.97

00:19:53.820 when are they going to start throwing some gay people off buildings? 0.97

00:19:56.300 You know, is that part of the, you know, celebration for the final? 0.99

00:19:58.940 And you just kind of go, sorry?

00:20:01.080 And then Gareth Southgate the other day comes out and says that,

00:20:03.540 you know, it's going to be very complicated when there's a penalty shooter

00:20:06.460 because he has to consider whether or not to ask Marcus Rashford

00:20:10.080 and some of the other players who happen to be black

00:20:13.280 whether they should take a penalty because they got a load of abuse.

00:20:16.900 And it's like, well, maybe if you taught them how to take penalties,

00:20:20.340 they wouldn't get any abuse.

00:20:21.440 And I'm sorry that they got abuse.

00:20:23.320 But the point is, is that, you know,

00:20:24.400 people who play football get abuse all the time.

00:20:26.580 Look at Beckham.

00:20:27.440 Remember Beckham back in the day?

00:20:28.500 I mean, they were hanging, you know. 0.99

00:20:30.240 They were saying, we're going to murder your kids. 0.99

00:20:31.980 Effigies, yeah. 0.99

00:20:32.360 They were hanging effigies from lampposts.

00:20:34.720 Unfortunately, football fans are not very nice.

00:20:37.040 You know, as much as we'd like them all to be nice.

00:20:39.080 Unfortunately, you know,

00:20:40.160 Manchester United fans sing songs about Liverpool fans.

00:20:43.200 Liverpool fans do the whole, you know, air crash thing from Munich.

00:20:47.040 You know, it's not very nice, but it goes on.

00:20:49.260 You can't police that.

00:20:50.980 You know, it's like walking into a room and going,

00:20:53.240 I wish everybody would just be really nice.

00:20:55.800 But that is the point.

00:20:57.460 We want to police everything now. 1.00

00:20:59.880 And look, nobody is condoning idiots on the internet 1.00

00:21:02.640 saying horrible racist thing. 1.00

00:21:04.580 Obviously, that shouldn't happen.

00:21:05.860 And it's disgraceful.

00:21:06.920 But this idea that we have to police every single little thing online,

00:21:12.200 it's become an obsession.

00:21:14.120 You know, you hear about people online making horrendous offensive jokes.

00:21:18.580 I don't know if you followed the case of that bloke

00:21:20.760 who built a model of the Grenfell Tower and then set fire to it. 0.99

00:21:23.820 And he's obviously a dickhead. 0.99

00:21:25.720 Let's be honest. 1.00

00:21:26.260 He's a dickhead who's not particularly bright. 1.00

00:21:28.920 But when did it become illegal to become a dickhead? 1.00

00:21:31.600 Yeah, but why are you going to put the guy in jail? 0.98

00:21:33.340 Exactly.

00:21:33.620 And have his life ruined as a result.

00:21:36.060 I mean, we've got one, I haven't actually seen the absolute details,

00:21:41.100 but there's some TikTok story going around

00:21:42.560 about a guy who has been suspended from his job.

00:21:46.020 He works for TikTok in London because he made a speech

00:21:48.760 in which he said he didn't think it was a very good idea

00:21:50.540 to give people maternity leave.

00:21:52.580 And you go, okay, well, that's a view.

00:21:54.660 You know, it's not the world's most modern view,

00:21:56.960 but, you know, it's a view.

00:21:58.460 But no, he's been suspended from his job

00:21:59.980 because people were outraged by it.

00:22:01.680 And it's like, why are you outraged by that?

00:22:03.720 You know, there is actually a law that gives people maternity leave. 0.98

00:22:07.200 People are protected by that.

00:22:09.580 And so there's already a situation in place where, 0.99

00:22:12.400 like you say, if the guy's a dickhead, he's a dickhead. 0.99

00:22:15.960 You know, just leave him to it. 0.99

00:22:17.320 Doesn't mean he's a criminal.

00:22:18.520 So, Mike, one of the things that we...

00:22:20.080 I can't remember which guest of ours it was,

00:22:21.480 but we've talked about it quite a bit,

00:22:22.800 is this idea that as we increasingly see government

00:22:26.480 as a solution and answer to all problems,

00:22:28.680 more and more of this stuff starts to happen

00:22:31.260 because if anything is wrong in our lives

00:22:34.260 or our experience of interacting with other people

00:22:37.200 or anything that is wrong in our lives,

00:22:40.840 it's the job of government to fix it.

00:22:42.660 So if someone's saying something we don't like,

00:22:44.940 well, it's the job of government to fix it.

00:22:46.800 Yes, somebody should come from over there 0.72

00:22:48.060 and tell them to stop, you know.

00:22:49.560 Yeah.

00:22:50.020 Yeah, I mean, I think COVID was to blame for a lot of that.

00:22:52.160 I think people got used to the fact that, you know,

00:22:54.320 they couldn't do anything

00:22:55.420 because the government said they couldn't.

00:22:57.920 I mean, I think sensible people

00:22:59.080 were slightly less rigid about that.

00:23:01.200 I mean, I think it reached kind of peak madness

00:23:02.720 when Beth Rigby at one point from Sky

00:23:05.140 asked the Prime Minister

00:23:06.120 in one of those god-awful, you know, news briefings,

00:23:10.980 you know, well, you say we can sunbathe on Monday,

00:23:13.320 but can we sunbathe on Sunday?

00:23:15.320 You're kind of going,

00:23:16.620 actually, Beth, I'd rather you didn't take your clothes off at all.

00:23:19.420 But if you want to,

00:23:21.380 I'm pretty sure you'll be okay sunbathing on Sunday

00:23:23.700 and not waiting till Monday.

00:23:25.720 And you kind of go,

00:23:26.220 why are you asking permission for that?

00:23:27.960 What's wrong with you?

00:23:28.860 Why do you need to be given an instruction

00:23:30.520 as to whether or not you can do something?

00:23:32.920 Just do it.

00:23:34.100 You know, and I think we've,

00:23:35.120 I think there are a lot of people in this country

00:23:36.700 who quite like being told what to do.

00:23:38.920 Unfortunately, I'm not one of them.

00:23:40.580 And that is hitting a nail on the head.

00:23:43.140 And what I've been surprised at,

00:23:45.500 a Conservative government have come in.

00:23:47.600 Yeah.

00:23:47.900 Since 2019.

00:23:48.780 Well, you say that.

00:23:49.600 Yeah.

00:23:49.900 I mean, I don't think there's anything Conservative about them,

00:23:52.220 is there?

00:23:52.920 No.

00:23:53.700 No, they've been encroaching into everybody's lives,

00:23:58.060 particularly during the pandemic.

00:23:59.660 Right.

00:23:59.980 They've put in laws about protesting,

00:24:01.820 which I find incredibly worrying.

00:24:03.760 Spaffing money up the wall.

00:24:04.900 Spaffing money up the wall.

00:24:06.260 And then we've got this cost of living crisis,

00:24:08.280 which is obviously awful, terrible.

00:24:10.280 And their solution is just to throw money at the problem.

00:24:12.620 And we've got spiking inflation.

00:24:14.340 I mean, here's some money to pay your electricity bill.

00:24:18.380 I mean, that's ridiculous, right?

00:24:19.900 They're supposedly taking the money back from the windfall tax.

00:24:23.060 But in the end, don't pay people money and keep the price high

00:24:27.080 so that these people can continue to make money as profiteers,

00:24:30.400 and then we're all paying for it.

00:24:32.060 It's completely mad.

00:24:33.320 And the one thing they come up with today,

00:24:34.960 to give people on housing benefit,

00:24:36.600 the ability to buy their own home,

00:24:38.140 whereby in one fell swoop you stop the ability of people

00:24:42.640 to get into a house because they can't afford to buy one

00:24:45.160 because you've reduced the stock.

00:24:46.780 And two, you're then giving them the ability to buy a house

00:24:49.760 with money given to them by people who can't afford to buy a house.

00:24:53.620 You're kind of going, sorry, what is the point of any of this?

00:24:57.220 Instead of building some houses.

00:24:58.640 Instead of building some houses.

00:24:59.520 They claim they're building houses,

00:25:00.760 but they're clearly not building houses.

00:25:02.800 And if they are building houses,

00:25:04.020 they build them sort of willy-nilly without any thought

00:25:06.580 to the pressure on schools,

00:25:08.880 the pressure on hospitals, on doctors.

00:25:11.220 You know, we've got a lot of people in this country now,

00:25:13.080 more than we had,

00:25:14.180 and nobody wants to talk about it.

00:25:15.480 Nobody wants to say,

00:25:16.540 we've got 10 million more people here than we should have had.

00:25:19.100 We've got, you know, a million people here

00:25:20.700 probably over the course of the last 10 years

00:25:22.220 who've come here illegally, who are now living here.

00:25:24.620 Nobody wants to talk about that

00:25:25.620 because that's racist, apparently.

00:25:27.800 But since we've come on to the government,

00:25:30.680 what have you made of...

00:25:32.220 We mentioned earlier that Boris Johnson

00:25:35.680 being able to literally get away

00:25:37.580 with what, to me, are like the cardinal sin of politics,

00:25:41.640 which is you're saying everyone must do something

00:25:44.000 and you're not doing it.

00:25:45.680 How is that happening?

00:25:47.120 Yeah, I mean, I think it's partly

00:25:48.880 because he's just very stubborn.

00:25:51.200 And nobody really knows how to deal with somebody

00:25:53.440 who doesn't follow the rules

00:25:55.020 because we've now constructed this kind of,

00:25:57.680 you know, I don't know,

00:25:59.760 ectoplasmic sort of surface

00:26:02.540 where if you break the rules,

00:26:04.620 nobody knows what to do with you.

00:26:06.040 You know, rather like Tommy Robinson for a long time

00:26:08.580 kept doing whatever he wanted to do

00:26:10.380 and every time they arrested him,

00:26:11.900 it didn't really stop him doing what he wanted to do

00:26:13.760 and he kept doing it. 0.99

00:26:15.280 And I mean, he's now disappeared up his own arse, 1.00

00:26:17.280 I think, because he's just a bit of an idiot. 1.00

00:26:19.300 But at the end of the day, 1.00

00:26:20.640 Boris will not be told to conform.

00:26:24.640 And because he doesn't do what he's meant to,

00:26:26.860 they don't understand what to do with him.

00:26:28.980 You know, they all said,

00:26:29.960 well, any decent person would have resigned by now.

00:26:31.800 Well, guess what?

00:26:32.380 He's not going to resign.

00:26:33.600 So you might as well forget about that.

00:26:35.740 So maybe he's not a decent person.

00:26:37.380 Who cares?

00:26:37.980 Doesn't really matter.

00:26:39.160 You know, these people who criticize him

00:26:40.460 for being, you know, amoral,

00:26:42.720 you know, I hope they haven't got anything in their lives

00:26:45.240 which could be pointed to as, you know,

00:26:46.700 perhaps moralistically, you know, dodgy.

00:26:49.680 Most people have, you know,

00:26:50.840 most journalists certainly have.

00:26:52.320 But they're all holier than now,

00:26:53.840 saying he's a terrible individual, 0.92

00:26:55.260 he's a ghastly person, 1.00

00:26:56.240 he's a liar, you know, 1.00

00:26:57.740 he cheats on his wife. 1.00

00:26:59.560 I mean, you know,

00:27:00.300 what's that got to do with anything?

00:27:01.440 The point is,

00:27:01.900 is that he will continue to do his job

00:27:03.860 until such time as he's literally stopped

00:27:06.380 physically from doing it.

00:27:08.040 That's kind of my question, Mike, though.

00:27:09.660 Do you not think that it is a problem

00:27:11.980 that someone can behave as he has done

00:27:14.260 and not be removed?

00:27:15.660 And I think part of the reason I would argue,

00:27:17.560 and I argued in my recent Substack about this,

00:27:19.420 is that we have a dearth of high-quality candidates

00:27:22.940 to replace him.

00:27:24.280 The Conservative Party,

00:27:25.720 I don't know who would be,

00:27:27.520 what, Jeremy Hunt,

00:27:28.580 who was screaming down the phone,

00:27:30.380 shut it down,

00:27:31.100 we need quarantine camps.

00:27:32.440 I know.

00:27:32.760 Is that who we want?

00:27:33.580 No, absolutely not.

00:27:34.820 Like, who are these people

00:27:36.220 that's supposed to replace him?

00:27:37.100 The problem we've got, I think,

00:27:38.280 is we've got this dearth of quality

00:27:40.260 because we've encouraged

00:27:42.060 the sort of political class

00:27:43.800 to become very much

00:27:45.960 sort of self-fulfilling, if you like,

00:27:48.660 so that you can only really become a politician now

00:27:50.840 if you play this game

00:27:52.380 whereby you're somebody's special advisor,

00:27:55.100 then you then get given a sort of safe seat

00:27:56.920 or maybe not a safe seat to lose

00:27:58.940 before you get given a safe seat to win.

00:28:01.560 And, you know,

00:28:02.060 it's all about patting each other on the back.

00:28:04.420 There's no real ideology anymore.

00:28:06.020 I mean, this is what I suppose

00:28:07.000 I should have said earlier

00:28:08.100 when we were looking at Thatcher.

00:28:09.320 Thatcher believed in things.

00:28:10.700 You know, she believed in crushing the unions 0.96

00:28:12.940 because she thought they were too powerful.

00:28:15.120 She believed in having

00:28:16.540 a certain economic kind of policy

00:28:18.140 because she wanted to give people genuinely

00:28:20.440 the ability to make more money.

00:28:22.320 I mean, she created the situation

00:28:24.800 for my generation to make money, you know,

00:28:27.960 because before that,

00:28:29.380 you were born into a sort of

00:28:30.500 what I would term a sort of, you know,

00:28:32.480 lower middle class household.

00:28:33.740 You weren't really going anywhere.

00:28:35.240 You probably weren't going to university.

00:28:37.200 My sister ended up working in the city

00:28:38.720 because of the Big Bang

00:28:39.700 and, you know, stock markets opened up.

00:28:41.860 If you weren't in the old days

00:28:43.160 the son of a stockbroker,

00:28:44.740 you couldn't get into that.

00:28:45.640 You know, in my day

00:28:47.880 you could still get into newspapers

00:28:49.160 without a degree,

00:28:50.240 which I was able to do.

00:28:52.160 And you had the ability

00:28:53.320 to make bucket loads of money.

00:28:55.060 Now I think social mobility

00:28:56.380 is as bad as it's ever been.

00:28:58.640 You know, if you don't have rich parents

00:28:59.940 in this country,

00:29:00.940 you can't really do very well.

00:29:02.240 You can't get a decent job.

00:29:03.740 You can't probably get a decent education

00:29:05.360 because your parents can't afford

00:29:06.420 to put you through university.

00:29:07.640 And you're kind of stuck where you are.

00:29:09.020 And I think the political class now

00:29:11.540 is so far and away removed

00:29:15.220 from ordinary people.

00:29:17.060 I don't think they even know

00:29:18.260 what ordinary people do.

00:29:19.720 I mean, they all get their bills paid.

00:29:21.860 They get expenses.

00:29:23.100 They drive around in cars.

00:29:24.300 You know, they don't have to worry

00:29:25.280 about paying for.

00:29:26.480 I think it's just become

00:29:27.480 such a soft world, you know,

00:29:30.160 that it's all about ambition.

00:29:32.720 It's all about what job can I get

00:29:34.260 rather than what do I want

00:29:35.640 to change about society.

00:29:36.720 I can't name anything

00:29:38.180 that Keir Starmer wants

00:29:39.060 to change about society.

00:29:40.700 I can't name one thing

00:29:41.760 that Angela Rayner wants

00:29:42.680 to change about society

00:29:43.580 or Boris Johnson

00:29:44.860 or Rishi Sunak

00:29:45.880 or, you know,

00:29:47.080 I just can't think of anyone

00:29:48.300 who believes in anything.

00:29:51.580 It's so true. 0.84

00:29:53.060 And it's not just that.

00:29:54.660 It's just a complete lack

00:29:55.740 of vision as well.

00:29:57.100 Like, if you ask Johnson,

00:29:58.620 where do you want this country

00:29:59.740 to be in four years' time?

00:30:01.440 I mean, he'd probably hit you

00:30:02.440 with some platitude.

00:30:03.360 Oh, yeah.

00:30:03.900 He'll go on about, you know,

00:30:05.000 British pride and the flag

00:30:06.480 and we're the greatest country

00:30:07.440 in the world.

00:30:07.860 But it doesn't mean anything.

00:30:09.940 You know, it really doesn't.

00:30:11.760 And I think a lot of people

00:30:12.640 in this country

00:30:13.080 don't really know

00:30:14.160 what Britain stands for anymore.

00:30:17.200 Other than if it's Boris Johnson,

00:30:19.240 it's just getting away with it.

00:30:21.240 I think.

00:30:22.120 And that's a real problem

00:30:23.240 because people look at him

00:30:24.440 and he's not a serious individual.

00:30:27.320 He's not serious.

00:30:28.400 He doesn't command respect

00:30:30.280 with his own voters,

00:30:33.560 let alone overseas.

00:30:35.260 So what does that say

00:30:36.200 about us as a country?

00:30:37.420 Yeah.

00:30:37.840 I mean, I don't know

00:30:38.540 that that's true

00:30:39.240 about what happens overseas.

00:30:40.640 I think there is still

00:30:41.460 a respect for

00:30:42.900 the Prime Minister

00:30:43.740 of Great Britain

00:30:44.420 overseas,

00:30:45.640 no matter what.

00:30:46.240 And I mean,

00:30:46.460 Zelensky's been quite 0.96

00:30:47.360 complimentary.

00:30:47.380 You've got a massive fans

00:30:48.680 of Boris Johnson, by the way.

00:30:49.380 And I mean,

00:30:49.740 he's done a really good thing.

00:30:51.080 And I mean,

00:30:51.400 at his best,

00:30:52.360 he is that guy.

00:30:54.680 But like all kind of

00:30:55.840 flawed domestic politicians,

00:30:58.920 you know,

00:30:59.180 his kind of arena

00:31:00.960 of excellence

00:31:01.940 is overseas aid,

00:31:03.540 it's overseas policy,

00:31:04.960 it's foreign policy,

00:31:05.820 it's what the American

00:31:06.720 presidents always do.

00:31:07.620 Whenever they're getting

00:31:08.180 schtuped domestically,

00:31:09.680 they start a war

00:31:10.380 or they, you know,

00:31:11.380 invade somewhere

00:31:12.000 or they do something

00:31:12.940 which makes it look like

00:31:14.240 they're kind of

00:31:14.780 straddling the world stage.

00:31:16.500 And he does that very well.

00:31:17.680 No, he got lucky in this case.

00:31:18.680 But you know,

00:31:19.280 I mean,

00:31:19.600 my dad used to say

00:31:20.420 about people

00:31:21.080 that the first time

00:31:21.760 you meet some people,

00:31:22.700 that's the best you get.

00:31:24.600 And I think Boris

00:31:25.200 is a bit like that.

00:31:25.840 The more you get to know him,

00:31:26.660 the worse it is.

00:31:27.800 You know,

00:31:28.140 he's quite impressive

00:31:28.880 when he walks into a G7 meeting,

00:31:31.240 probably.

00:31:32.040 But by the end of it,

00:31:33.120 you're kind of going,

00:31:33.920 really?

00:31:34.600 Is this the guy?

00:31:36.160 You know?

00:31:36.940 But he can look

00:31:37.820 and first impressions

00:31:38.700 can be important

00:31:39.400 and I think first impressions

00:31:40.320 he can do the business.

00:31:42.080 But I just don't think

00:31:43.360 he stands for anything.

00:31:44.460 Yeah.

00:31:44.940 And like I say,

00:31:46.500 I am not a fan

00:31:48.140 of Boris Johnson at all.

00:31:49.260 But my bigger worry

00:31:50.600 is there's no one

00:31:51.420 who's a credible threat

00:31:52.560 to him on his own side.

00:31:54.100 Yeah.

00:31:54.240 Most of whom,

00:31:54.960 in my opinion, 0.99

00:31:55.420 are equally useless. 0.98

00:31:56.320 Yeah. 0.97

00:31:57.560 And they also like

00:31:58.940 the charisma

00:31:59.400 that at least he has.

00:32:00.620 He's quite charismatic.

00:32:02.140 He is.

00:32:03.020 And he can be very funny.

00:32:04.540 Absolutely.

00:32:05.160 You know?

00:32:05.860 Sometimes intentionally.

00:32:07.400 But on the other side,

00:32:10.560 on the other side,

00:32:12.620 you don't have

00:32:13.140 a credible threat either.

00:32:14.860 And frankly,

00:32:16.220 like,

00:32:16.500 I would really struggle

00:32:18.200 to vote for the Tories

00:32:19.500 at the next election.

00:32:21.560 But the only thing

00:32:22.740 that might make me consider it

00:32:24.620 is the quality of the opposition.

00:32:26.060 Yeah.

00:32:26.740 Well,

00:32:26.920 Keir Starmer,

00:32:27.600 in Prime Minister's Questions

00:32:28.440 this week,

00:32:29.540 absolute open goal

00:32:30.780 to rip Boris Johnson 0.86

00:32:32.260 to shreds.

00:32:32.820 And he missed it.

00:32:33.880 Just didn't do it.

00:32:35.080 You know,

00:32:35.280 didn't even...

00:32:36.000 I said today,

00:32:37.460 if you'd kind of

00:32:38.340 come down from Mars

00:32:39.340 and landed in the Commons

00:32:40.500 during Prime Minister's Questions,

00:32:42.040 you wouldn't have even known

00:32:43.020 that Boris Johnson

00:32:44.220 had been the subject

00:32:45.040 of a vote of no confidence

00:32:46.380 in his own party.

00:32:47.800 You know,

00:32:48.060 it took Ian Blackford

00:32:48.920 to bring it up

00:32:49.460 who actually was quite funny

00:32:50.480 for the first time.

00:32:51.700 You know,

00:32:51.900 I quite...

00:32:52.720 You know,

00:32:52.960 the trouble is

00:32:54.260 I'm torn,

00:32:54.920 you see,

00:32:55.220 by being a journalist

00:32:56.720 and a broadcaster

00:32:58.120 as well as being a citizen

00:32:59.620 because I kind of

00:33:00.340 quite like the chaos.

00:33:01.520 I quite like the absolute disaster

00:33:03.780 that is the government

00:33:04.860 and the way

00:33:05.660 that the country's going.

00:33:06.660 You know,

00:33:06.760 the petrol crisis

00:33:07.560 is something

00:33:09.260 that we can really get behind,

00:33:11.340 get our teeth into.

00:33:12.540 The NHS being completely hopeless

00:33:14.340 is something

00:33:15.300 which kind of,

00:33:16.060 you know,

00:33:16.360 works well for me

00:33:17.480 as a subject

00:33:18.840 to talk about

00:33:19.600 because we get

00:33:20.440 incredible stories

00:33:21.380 from people.

00:33:21.900 You know,

00:33:22.140 if everything was really going well,

00:33:24.240 I don't think we'd be doing

00:33:25.280 quite as well as we are.

00:33:26.940 You know?

00:33:27.460 There's a part of that of me

00:33:28.760 which kind of is wedded to that.

00:33:30.140 I hear you,

00:33:30.740 but I also think,

00:33:31.960 as you know,

00:33:32.800 speaking to ordinary people

00:33:33.900 every day,

00:33:35.720 this is hurting people.

00:33:37.240 Oh, sure.

00:33:37.840 Very bad.

00:33:38.260 I've got two teenage sons,

00:33:39.780 right?

00:33:40.220 I have no idea

00:33:41.060 what they're going to end up

00:33:42.060 doing with their lives

00:33:43.060 and it's going to be

00:33:43.640 very difficult for them,

00:33:44.500 I think,

00:33:44.880 to, you know,

00:33:47.020 chart a course

00:33:47.780 through their education

00:33:49.420 and then into employment,

00:33:51.500 you know,

00:33:51.760 because even if they knew

00:33:53.140 for sure what they wanted to do,

00:33:54.820 it's a very uncertain world

00:33:56.080 we live in now.

00:33:56.740 It's a very unusual place

00:33:58.260 for anyone.

00:33:59.620 I mean,

00:33:59.820 I don't remember that much

00:34:00.900 about my 20s,

00:34:01.780 but, you know,

00:34:03.500 I kind of just did

00:34:04.440 what I wanted to do

00:34:05.160 and I kind of did all right.

00:34:06.940 I think it's a lot harder now

00:34:08.120 for kids, you know,

00:34:09.260 and they'll be reasonably

00:34:10.420 well-advantaged

00:34:11.760 because, you know,

00:34:12.980 their parents have got some money.

00:34:15.000 If you're a kid growing up

00:34:16.100 in a place where there's nothing

00:34:17.160 in the north of England

00:34:18.520 or even in the south,

00:34:19.380 people forget that, you know,

00:34:20.520 this levelling up stuff

00:34:21.520 is not just about

00:34:22.500 the north of England.

00:34:23.300 I mean,

00:34:23.480 there's plenty of parts of Britain

00:34:24.580 in the south of the country

00:34:26.220 which are in really bad ways,

00:34:28.460 you know,

00:34:29.060 and if you're growing up

00:34:29.960 in a poor community

00:34:31.000 somewhere in Dorset,

00:34:32.920 you know,

00:34:33.240 you've got no chance

00:34:34.040 of getting anywhere

00:34:35.020 or doing anything,

00:34:35.860 you know,

00:34:36.080 you're too far from London

00:34:37.000 to get a job,

00:34:37.660 you can't probably live

00:34:38.880 in London

00:34:39.220 because you can't afford it,

00:34:40.380 your parents can't give you

00:34:41.480 any money

00:34:41.840 because they don't have any,

00:34:43.020 and what are you going to do,

00:34:44.040 you know?

00:34:44.780 Yeah,

00:34:45.180 it's,

00:34:46.100 and what I'm really worried

00:34:47.980 about, Mike,

00:34:48.580 is you're looking at things

00:34:49.520 like inflation,

00:34:50.420 the cost of living crisis,

00:34:52.520 and you think

00:34:53.640 things are going to get

00:34:54.420 quite ugly,

00:34:55.040 aren't they,

00:34:55.400 potentially?

00:34:56.120 Yeah.

00:34:56.240 Because if people are working

00:34:57.640 and they can't meet

00:34:59.440 their basic needs

00:35:00.820 and they're working

00:35:02.040 a full-time job,

00:35:04.400 that's a recipe

00:35:05.820 for disaster.

00:35:06.380 It really is.

00:35:07.160 It really is.

00:35:07.940 And I mean,

00:35:08.440 we're being taxed

00:35:09.840 far too much,

00:35:10.960 you know,

00:35:11.200 more than we've ever

00:35:11.880 been taxed in my lifetime.

00:35:14.760 By a conservative government.

00:35:15.840 Yeah,

00:35:16.060 well,

00:35:16.180 you've got to tax people

00:35:17.060 if you're going to give

00:35:17.840 everyone loads of money.

00:35:19.520 Well,

00:35:19.780 that's what we're told,

00:35:20.960 but now we're told

00:35:21.780 that they're going to

00:35:22.260 give us some back.

00:35:23.660 But how are they going

00:35:24.240 to do that,

00:35:24.600 I don't know.

00:35:25.260 You know,

00:35:25.500 this windfall tax

00:35:26.300 supposedly is being used

00:35:27.760 to give everybody,

00:35:28.840 you know,

00:35:29.500 a council tax rebate,

00:35:31.120 but that's not really

00:35:31.940 going to help many people.

00:35:32.980 I mean,

00:35:33.140 I've seen £150

00:35:34.400 as a council tax rebate

00:35:35.880 for my council tax

00:35:37.020 and I'm not saying

00:35:38.100 I need the money,

00:35:39.400 that's a month and a half's

00:35:40.460 council tax

00:35:41.100 out of a year.

00:35:42.620 You know,

00:35:43.000 what the hell

00:35:43.640 is the point of that? 0.65

00:35:44.440 And,

00:35:44.660 you know,

00:35:45.080 they need to make

00:35:45.960 things cheaper.

00:35:47.060 I don't know how

00:35:47.580 they do that.

00:35:49.120 You know,

00:35:49.480 we seem to be stuck

00:35:50.260 in a spiral of just

00:35:51.420 everything's going up.

00:35:52.540 I mean,

00:35:52.760 today we were having

00:35:53.480 calls from people

00:35:54.100 about the most expensive

00:35:55.540 petrol in Britain

00:35:56.660 and it turns out

00:35:57.880 that it's somewhere

00:35:58.400 in,

00:35:58.720 it was between,

00:35:59.460 at one point

00:36:00.040 it was somewhere

00:36:01.600 on the M6

00:36:02.320 and we ended up

00:36:03.060 with somewhere

00:36:03.360 in Chelsea

00:36:03.800 £2.20

00:36:04.600 for a litre of petrol.

00:36:08.340 And you're just going,

00:36:09.400 that's,

00:36:09.880 and it's going up

00:36:10.700 literally by the day

00:36:12.060 for no reason.

00:36:13.740 Suddenly it's jumped

00:36:14.380 5p from yesterday

00:36:15.420 and you go,

00:36:15.840 well,

00:36:15.960 why?

00:36:16.820 How is that possible?

00:36:17.720 And people say,

00:36:18.160 oh,

00:36:18.300 well,

00:36:18.460 you know,

00:36:18.640 it's market forces.

00:36:19.380 It's not market forces.

00:36:20.800 It's profiteering,

00:36:22.040 surely.

00:36:23.200 Why do you think that,

00:36:23.860 Mike?

00:36:24.040 Why do you think

00:36:24.480 it's not market forces?

00:36:25.120 Because I don't believe

00:36:26.240 that the cost of petrol

00:36:27.760 and diesel

00:36:28.780 and oil

00:36:29.480 at wholesale level

00:36:31.300 has changed.

00:36:32.080 In fact,

00:36:32.400 it's gone down

00:36:33.060 and yet the prices

00:36:34.460 at the pumps

00:36:34.920 are going up.

00:36:36.620 Somebody put this to me.

00:36:38.120 How about this?

00:36:38.580 I haven't investigated it

00:36:39.620 so I can't say

00:36:40.440 that it's true

00:36:40.940 but there's one

00:36:42.380 major chain

00:36:43.240 of service stations

00:36:43.940 in this country

00:36:44.460 which appears

00:36:45.340 to be owned

00:36:46.000 by a university

00:36:47.860 pension fund.

00:36:50.240 Now,

00:36:50.680 whenever you're looking

00:36:51.500 for profiteering,

00:36:53.160 you look at the,

00:36:53.840 not so much

00:36:54.680 the actual market forces

00:36:56.160 but you look at

00:36:56.860 like the futures markets,

00:36:58.360 you look at commodities,

00:36:59.700 I mean,

00:36:59.880 for example,

00:37:00.300 all the prices

00:37:00.920 that are going up

00:37:01.520 because of the wheat problem,

00:37:03.220 that's all being driven

00:37:03.980 by commodity markets.

00:37:05.040 That's all being driven

00:37:05.540 by speculators

00:37:06.660 in New York,

00:37:07.820 Hong Kong,

00:37:08.380 Singapore,

00:37:09.260 London

00:37:09.500 who are betting

00:37:10.540 on the price

00:37:11.180 of wheat

00:37:11.860 in the future.

00:37:13.460 That's costing

00:37:14.200 you and I,

00:37:15.520 you know,

00:37:15.940 two quid

00:37:16.360 on a loaf of bread.

00:37:17.900 And I think

00:37:18.500 that's the problem.

00:37:19.180 I don't know,

00:37:19.440 I sound like a communist here

00:37:21.000 but you know,

00:37:21.840 some of these market forces

00:37:23.360 are market forces

00:37:25.100 which are manufactured

00:37:26.140 in my view,

00:37:27.780 capitalist sort of market forces

00:37:29.240 in very strange

00:37:30.920 and convoluted,

00:37:32.240 you know,

00:37:32.460 a bit like the,

00:37:33.140 you know,

00:37:34.280 the mortgage fallout

00:37:35.540 from 2008

00:37:36.320 when the banks

00:37:36.760 were all failing.

00:37:37.680 It was because 0.98

00:37:38.120 of these ridiculous packages 0.77

00:37:39.300 of investments 0.90

00:37:39.940 that were being put together

00:37:40.820 by these rocket scientists

00:37:41.940 in Wall Street

00:37:42.540 who were packaging up,

00:37:44.120 you know,

00:37:44.400 risk and saying,

00:37:46.140 I'll take your mortgage

00:37:46.960 and I'll sell it to him

00:37:48.060 but I'll also package it up

00:37:49.780 with 500 other mortgages

00:37:51.320 because the price of property

00:37:52.520 is always going to go up

00:37:53.260 as long as that happens

00:37:53.900 we'll all make money

00:37:54.560 and then the profits

00:37:55.500 started to go

00:37:56.120 because the price of property

00:37:57.080 went down

00:37:57.520 and they all went, 1.00

00:37:58.280 oh shit, 1.00

00:37:59.260 suddenly we haven't got any money 0.99

00:38:00.720 and suddenly the banks

00:38:01.920 are all collapsing

00:38:02.500 and all that,

00:38:02.920 you know,

00:38:03.180 there's a lot going on

00:38:04.180 which I think

00:38:04.640 we don't know about.

00:38:05.780 Yeah,

00:38:06.320 and you,

00:38:07.340 so you host your show

00:38:08.740 and people call in,

00:38:09.980 what's the thing

00:38:10.620 that the ordinary bloke

00:38:11.720 or woman on the street

00:38:12.620 talks about?

00:38:13.600 The things they care about

00:38:14.480 the most are

00:38:15.340 the green, 0.98

00:38:16.900 the net zero crap 0.98

00:38:18.260 which nobody wants, 0.97

00:38:19.520 nobody wants to buy into that

00:38:20.660 even especially now

00:38:21.520 more than ever,

00:38:22.020 the migrants who come illegally 0.99

00:38:23.780 and the cost of living.

00:38:25.380 Those are the three things

00:38:26.240 and those are the three

00:38:27.040 most important issues

00:38:28.120 in Britain today

00:38:28.780 regardless of what,

00:38:30.640 you know,

00:38:30.860 politicians will say.

00:38:31.880 And the first and the third

00:38:32.760 are tightly correlated by that.

00:38:34.540 They are.

00:38:34.760 Not correlated,

00:38:35.500 they're related directly.

00:38:36.760 Of course they are

00:38:37.360 because if it wasn't

00:38:38.080 for this kind of

00:38:38.640 net zero obsession,

00:38:40.160 we would not be,

00:38:41.260 you know,

00:38:42.020 paying so much money

00:38:43.020 for the energy

00:38:43.520 that we've got.

00:38:44.320 I've always said to people,

00:38:45.280 look,

00:38:45.400 if you want to buy

00:38:46.580 an electric car,

00:38:47.760 then sell me

00:38:48.420 a cheap electric car.

00:38:49.700 If you want to convince me

00:38:50.620 not to drive

00:38:51.360 a big gas guzzling

00:38:52.620 four by four,

00:38:53.860 sell me the same car

00:38:54.920 for less money

00:38:56.080 if it's electric.

00:38:56.820 But instead of that,

00:38:57.780 you buy the electric version

00:38:58.660 of my car,

00:38:59.180 it costs twice as much.

00:39:00.700 Why would you bother?

00:39:01.600 And it's got half the range.

00:39:02.820 Yeah,

00:39:03.400 half the range.

00:39:04.040 And also I was watching,

00:39:04.780 there's a great video

00:39:05.460 which is out on Twitter today

00:39:07.360 from Ford in America.

00:39:09.820 And the CEO of Ford

00:39:10.900 who's a woman 0.62

00:39:11.320 is out like,

00:39:12.020 you know,

00:39:12.500 extolling the virtues

00:39:13.360 of this new electric car.

00:39:14.500 And somebody says,

00:39:15.340 what's currently charging

00:39:16.960 your charge points?

00:39:18.720 And she's like,

00:39:19.360 oh,

00:39:19.480 I think we're getting it

00:39:20.140 from the local

00:39:20.800 Lansing Energy Company.

00:39:23.180 They go to the Lansing Energy Company

00:39:24.560 and they say,

00:39:25.140 where's your energy coming from?

00:39:26.200 They're like,

00:39:26.560 it's 98% coal.

00:39:28.760 And you go,

00:39:29.180 so you're charging electric cars

00:39:30.600 with electricity generated by coal.

00:39:33.000 That doesn't really seem

00:39:34.200 quite like the green dream,

00:39:35.600 does it?

00:39:36.900 You know,

00:39:37.400 and as much as we want

00:39:38.500 electricity to be clean,

00:39:40.680 I don't have a problem with that.

00:39:42.360 But it's not practical.

00:39:43.820 It doesn't work.

00:39:44.880 And, you know,

00:39:45.380 most ordinary people

00:39:46.200 can't afford a bloody Tesla.

00:39:48.440 You know, 0.95

00:39:48.780 it's too expensive.

00:39:49.640 And if you did have one,

00:39:50.920 you can't charge it.

00:39:51.840 And people go,

00:39:52.340 oh, don't worry,

00:39:52.720 you charge it the night before.

00:39:54.240 Well, fine,

00:39:54.840 if you've got something

00:39:55.640 you can charge it with

00:39:56.720 or two,

00:39:57.620 but if you're parked

00:39:58.480 in a street

00:39:59.020 where there's a lot of flats

00:40:00.380 in the middle of London,

00:40:01.700 where are you going to charge it exactly?

00:40:03.900 It's not happening.

00:40:06.340 And so let's touch

00:40:07.760 on the migrant crisis.

00:40:09.800 And is that really

00:40:12.300 a very big issue

00:40:13.340 for most people?

00:40:14.320 Yeah, because again,

00:40:15.240 it's not simply about

00:40:16.400 people arriving on beaches

00:40:17.980 and walking into Britain

00:40:19.500 without any reason to do so.

00:40:21.860 It's about pressure on the NHS.

00:40:23.560 It's about pressure on the economy.

00:40:25.320 It's about what they're doing here.

00:40:26.820 Nobody really knows.

00:40:27.780 It's about the millions,

00:40:29.240 it's five million pounds a day

00:40:30.440 this is costing this government

00:40:32.220 to house them all in hotels.

00:40:35.360 You know,

00:40:35.720 I'm not going to be

00:40:36.360 one of those people

00:40:36.840 that says, you know,

00:40:37.400 they're all potentially 0.90

00:40:38.600 criminals or terrorists.

00:40:39.800 I'm not saying that, 0.76

00:40:40.860 but they shouldn't be here

00:40:41.800 and we shouldn't be

00:40:42.360 paying them to be here

00:40:43.320 and we shouldn't be

00:40:43.940 charging the taxpayer,

00:40:46.160 you know,

00:40:46.460 the equivalent of

00:40:46.920 30 million odd quid a week

00:40:49.080 to help them to come.

00:40:51.240 So, Mike,

00:40:52.360 how is it that a government

00:40:53.640 that essentially

00:40:55.320 was elected for one reason,

00:40:56.540 which is a promise

00:40:57.300 to deliver Brexit,

00:40:58.860 right?

00:40:59.320 Yeah.

00:41:00.020 Which was promised to people

00:41:01.580 as a way of controlling immigration

00:41:03.020 because we take back control

00:41:04.400 of our borders,

00:41:06.120 right? 1.00

00:41:06.820 Where's the fucking control? 1.00

00:41:07.860 There is none. 1.00

00:41:08.840 There is none.

00:41:09.340 Why is our government

00:41:10.620 not doing that?

00:41:11.600 I don't know.

00:41:12.340 Because, look,

00:41:13.220 I don't understand

00:41:14.840 the logic here

00:41:15.580 because if you say

00:41:16.400 this is what people care about

00:41:17.660 and I'm sure that all those people

00:41:19.220 voted for the Tories

00:41:20.240 at the last election,

00:41:22.000 then surely,

00:41:22.880 electorally,

00:41:24.140 it must be

00:41:25.080 an open goal

00:41:26.220 for the Tories

00:41:26.880 to fix that problem.

00:41:27.960 You would think.

00:41:28.580 So why are they doing it?

00:41:29.280 Because again,

00:41:30.020 I think it's something

00:41:30.720 that they physically

00:41:31.440 don't know what to do

00:41:32.920 to stop it.

00:41:34.320 You know,

00:41:34.480 a bit like they don't know

00:41:35.180 how to stop Boris Johnson

00:41:35.980 from breaking the rules

00:41:36.740 and getting away with it.

00:41:38.060 They physically don't know

00:41:39.440 how to stop them.

00:41:40.380 I mean,

00:41:40.560 I've actually said

00:41:41.500 there's a very simple way

00:41:42.600 to do it

00:41:43.060 and it would be simple

00:41:44.220 and you might laugh at this

00:41:45.940 but I would literally

00:41:46.600 go to France

00:41:47.720 with one of those Rambo knives 0.97

00:41:49.660 and every time you see a dinghy

00:41:50.560 you just stick the knife in it.

00:41:51.800 The dinghy can't go in the water. 0.83

00:41:53.840 It's that simple.

00:41:55.040 And they, you know,

00:41:56.120 then they're not coming, right?

00:41:58.180 People look at me

00:41:58.920 like you're looking at me.

00:42:00.360 It can't be that simple.

00:42:01.720 What I'm thinking

00:42:02.500 inside of my head

00:42:03.320 is maybe a little bit

00:42:04.520 more complicated than that.

00:42:04.980 I don't think it is.

00:42:05.740 If you can't get in a,

00:42:06.740 if you physically can't,

00:42:08.080 no,

00:42:08.340 if you physically can't

00:42:09.220 get in a boat

00:42:09.820 you're not coming.

00:42:11.360 I've just got this image

00:42:12.320 of you in a wetsuit

00:42:13.320 just going around

00:42:14.040 doing that to dinghies.

00:42:15.640 Seriously.

00:42:16.420 If you can't get in a dinghy

00:42:17.700 you're not coming.

00:42:18.680 I've got like

00:42:19.160 a movie image

00:42:20.020 in my head

00:42:20.380 and Mike

00:42:20.640 just comes out of the water

00:42:21.900 with like camera

00:42:22.660 paint on his face.

00:42:24.900 I mean,

00:42:25.380 they've got this,

00:42:26.100 I mean,

00:42:26.420 we're talking

00:42:26.960 that kind of level

00:42:27.840 of madness.

00:42:28.780 Yeah.

00:42:29.300 Because everybody knows

00:42:30.520 who these people are.

00:42:32.160 Everybody knows

00:42:32.620 where they're coming from.

00:42:33.780 Everybody knows

00:42:34.180 how they get in here.

00:42:35.680 Surely you just

00:42:36.220 stop them from doing that.

00:42:38.100 And now we're sending

00:42:39.080 them all to Rwanda.

00:42:39.920 Sorry, mate.

00:42:40.440 Yeah.

00:42:41.120 I'm not being sent

00:42:42.020 to Rwanda.

00:42:42.960 Unfortunately.

00:42:43.320 Well,

00:42:43.560 I've said to Downing Street,

00:42:44.960 the first flight to Rwanda,

00:42:46.300 I want to be on that

00:42:47.040 so we can do a show

00:42:48.320 from Rwanda,

00:42:49.140 from Kigali.

00:42:49.760 But it now looks like

00:42:51.980 they're saying,

00:42:52.480 oh, well,

00:42:52.920 you know,

00:42:53.140 the first flight

00:42:53.660 might be difficult

00:42:54.400 because there's lawyers

00:42:55.340 in the way.

00:42:56.000 Why can't you send them

00:42:56.780 back to France, mate?

00:42:58.040 That's what I don't understand.

00:42:58.940 Well,

00:42:59.140 because we're frightened

00:42:59.900 of doing that.

00:43:00.540 You know,

00:43:00.800 whenever you say

00:43:01.440 turn the boats back,

00:43:02.840 people go,

00:43:03.460 oh, people might die.

00:43:04.540 Not that many people die.

00:43:05.880 We've had 10,000 people

00:43:06.900 have come already this year.

00:43:08.120 I don't think anybody's

00:43:08.880 died so far this year.

00:43:10.060 It's pretty,

00:43:10.580 I mean,

00:43:10.780 I go down the south coast

00:43:12.040 pretty much every weekend.

00:43:13.460 It's like a mill pond.

00:43:14.620 The serpentine is busier

00:43:16.300 and, you know,

00:43:17.180 more rough than the channel

00:43:18.340 at most of the times

00:43:19.400 of the year.

00:43:20.120 And, you know,

00:43:20.800 there's no reason why

00:43:22.000 we owe these people anything.

00:43:24.800 You know,

00:43:25.240 when we get told

00:43:25.960 by the lefties,

00:43:26.620 oh, they're fleeing,

00:43:27.300 you know,

00:43:27.520 war and trauma

00:43:28.460 and disaster,

00:43:29.200 well,

00:43:29.280 they look pretty happy

00:43:29.960 when they get here.

00:43:30.900 They've all got phones

00:43:31.820 that they're able to throw

00:43:32.540 into the river.

00:43:33.380 I mean,

00:43:33.560 I wouldn't throw my phone away.

00:43:34.540 I paid a lot of money for it.

00:43:35.640 But they apparently

00:43:36.260 don't seem to care about that.

00:43:37.660 My belief is that

00:43:38.800 many of them are coming here

00:43:39.940 as part of a criminal enterprise

00:43:41.820 because they're being paid

00:43:43.500 to do so

00:43:44.440 by human traffickers

00:43:45.800 who want them to come here.

00:43:47.300 Not because they're going to

00:43:48.300 commit horrible,

00:43:49.460 awful,

00:43:49.980 heinous crimes,

00:43:50.760 but they'll work 0.97

00:43:51.560 in the black economy.

00:43:52.980 You know,

00:43:53.560 whether they're washing cars,

00:43:56.340 whether they're running brothels, 0.52

00:43:57.640 whether they're running,

00:43:58.300 you know,

00:43:58.520 money laundering schemes,

00:43:59.700 I don't know.

00:44:00.740 But it seems to me

00:44:01.520 that that's the aim.

00:44:03.260 They're not coming here

00:44:04.120 to become doctors.

00:44:05.400 You know,

00:44:05.560 they're not coming here

00:44:06.220 to join the police force.

00:44:07.540 They're not coming here

00:44:08.640 because they like

00:44:09.740 the look of Highbury.

00:44:11.440 You know,

00:44:12.080 they're coming here

00:44:12.680 to do a job of work.

00:44:13.900 And I think it's

00:44:14.480 for the human traffickers

00:44:15.360 who run criminal gangs.

00:44:16.780 It's more lucrative now

00:44:17.900 to smuggle people

00:44:18.660 than it is to smuggle cocaine.

00:44:20.200 And that's what they're doing.

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00:45:26.120 Mike,

00:45:26.460 why can't we have

00:45:27.840 honest conversations

00:45:28.800 about this?

00:45:29.400 Why is it that

00:45:30.180 I turn on my TV

00:45:31.520 and we're not

00:45:33.580 going to have

00:45:33.900 an honest conversation

00:45:34.800 about this on the BBC?

00:45:36.340 Or Channel 4?

00:45:37.760 Because people

00:45:38.500 are either

00:45:40.280 squeamish,

00:45:41.380 or deluded,

00:45:42.720 or completely and utterly

00:45:43.980 kind of wedded to this

00:45:45.060 idea of a global world

00:45:46.680 that literally doesn't

00:45:47.940 have any borders.

00:45:49.180 And if you live in a

00:45:50.180 place where,

00:45:50.840 you know,

00:45:52.160 ethnic minorities

00:45:52.900 have taken over

00:45:53.840 the part of the world

00:45:55.640 that you know

00:45:56.360 that didn't used to

00:45:57.380 be like that,

00:45:58.200 you're going to feel

00:45:58.780 pretty weird about that.

00:45:59.900 You're not going to be

00:46:00.400 in favour of it.

00:46:01.160 You're not going to be

00:46:01.500 happy about it.

00:46:02.520 You know,

00:46:02.760 there are parts of

00:46:03.340 London which I drive

00:46:05.000 through from time to

00:46:05.740 time,

00:46:06.500 and you can see

00:46:07.820 that it's full of

00:46:09.000 people from Eritrea

00:46:10.320 or full of people

00:46:11.060 from Ethiopia.

00:46:12.100 Now,

00:46:12.260 I've got no problem

00:46:12.800 with that,

00:46:13.260 but I don't live there.

00:46:14.380 But if you're some

00:46:15.280 white guy who lived

00:46:16.440 there for 40,

00:46:17.220 50 years,

00:46:17.860 and you look around

00:46:18.500 and you see

00:46:18.920 everything's changed,

00:46:19.660 you go,

00:46:20.540 there's something a bit

00:46:21.320 odd about this.

00:46:22.300 This is not what I recognise

00:46:24.180 as my place.

00:46:25.240 I'm as much in favour

00:46:26.220 of multicultural cities

00:46:27.860 as anybody.

00:46:28.780 But I think the problem

00:46:29.620 is that one,

00:46:30.900 because it's out of control,

00:46:32.600 you don't know

00:46:33.380 what's going on.

00:46:35.080 People feel helpless.

00:46:36.220 I mean,

00:46:36.640 I was listening to Nick Ferrari

00:46:37.460 the other day,

00:46:38.180 and he said,

00:46:38.680 well,

00:46:38.780 maybe we should just

00:46:39.460 let them come.

00:46:40.220 It's quite a small

00:46:41.000 number of people.

00:46:41.780 It's not really going

00:46:42.960 to have an impact

00:46:43.640 on most of the country.

00:46:45.160 You're going,

00:46:45.640 sorry?

00:46:46.600 What are you talking about?

00:46:47.940 You know,

00:46:48.280 if you're talking about

00:46:48.940 30,000 people a year,

00:46:51.580 that's a small town

00:46:52.880 in Britain

00:46:53.340 every single year.

00:46:55.220 You know?

00:46:56.780 And that's going to have

00:46:57.740 an impact on everything.

00:46:59.680 But this is the thing.

00:47:00.400 The people on the left

00:47:01.280 who refuse to talk about this

00:47:02.640 don't understand

00:47:03.840 that actually

00:47:04.620 that has an impact,

00:47:06.640 like you said before,

00:47:07.660 on public services,

00:47:09.000 on schools,

00:47:09.940 on the NHS.

00:47:11.040 Absolutely.

00:47:11.620 I mean,

00:47:12.100 it so happens

00:47:12.880 that most of the people

00:47:13.920 who come on the boats

00:47:14.780 have brown skin.

00:47:16.560 That's not really the issue.

00:47:17.700 There's plenty of Albanians

00:47:18.640 coming as well.

00:47:19.880 There was a load of Albanians

00:47:20.920 that came the other week.

00:47:22.060 And unfortunately,

00:47:22.760 whether you like it or not,

00:47:23.920 a lot of people

00:47:24.340 who come from Albania

00:47:25.200 are hooked into the drugs culture,

00:47:26.880 into the criminal culture.

00:47:28.220 There's a lot of gangs

00:47:28.920 in Albania.

00:47:29.860 You know,

00:47:30.240 they're not coming here legally 0.99

00:47:31.360 because they don't want

00:47:33.000 to come legally.

00:47:33.640 They want to come illegally 0.99

00:47:34.440 so they're not traceable.

00:47:36.120 You know,

00:47:36.400 people,

00:47:36.880 unfortunately,

00:47:37.400 these do-gooders

00:47:38.000 have this view

00:47:38.520 that everybody's got goodness

00:47:40.000 in their heart.

00:47:40.740 Sorry to disappoint you,

00:47:42.260 everybody hasn't got goodness

00:47:43.260 in their heart.

00:47:44.160 You know?

00:47:44.420 And some people

00:47:45.280 are coming here

00:47:45.800 because they want to make money,

00:47:47.280 they don't want to pay tax,

00:47:48.300 and they want to make use

00:47:49.140 of whatever it is

00:47:49.800 that's here that they want

00:47:51.080 that they can't get at home.

00:47:52.600 You know,

00:47:53.060 even in a place like Poland,

00:47:54.840 the average salary

00:47:56.020 is 50% of what it is here.

00:47:58.560 You know,

00:47:58.940 of course they want to come

00:47:59.800 and work here

00:48:00.260 and want to live here,

00:48:00.940 but we can't just keep saying

00:48:02.140 that's not a problem.

00:48:03.940 You know,

00:48:04.260 and most people in this country 1.00

00:48:05.440 give a shit about that. 1.00

00:48:06.540 Well, 1.00

00:48:06.840 no,

00:48:07.300 I agree with you.

00:48:08.140 And the thing is as well

00:48:09.200 is we are now quite plugged

00:48:10.520 into that immigrant labor 0.99

00:48:12.100 to the extent that,

00:48:13.520 for example,

00:48:13.880 we had James Cavarini in here

00:48:15.460 who runs a restaurant

00:48:16.320 in West London

00:48:17.080 and he made the point

00:48:18.500 that whether it was Brexit

00:48:19.640 or whether it's COVID

00:48:20.980 and whatever,

00:48:22.320 we've got to a position,

00:48:23.360 actually,

00:48:23.700 we're very short on staff

00:48:25.340 in certain,

00:48:26.040 like airports are getting

00:48:27.020 flights cancelled,

00:48:28.360 restaurants are really struggling

00:48:29.500 to hire staff,

00:48:31.400 you know,

00:48:31.680 farms,

00:48:32.080 et cetera,

00:48:32.280 because we've come

00:48:33.640 to rely on people

00:48:34.860 and now the argument's become

00:48:36.140 we need these people

00:48:36.960 to do the jobs

00:48:37.680 that we don't want to do.

00:48:39.420 How much truth

00:48:40.200 do you think there is to that?

00:48:40.820 I think there's truth to that,

00:48:41.780 but I think you've got to think

00:48:42.660 about the reason,

00:48:44.020 the second part of that sentence,

00:48:45.260 which is the jobs

00:48:45.880 that we don't want to do.

00:48:47.340 The problem in this country

00:48:48.200 is that people are paid

00:48:49.240 not to work

00:48:49.920 and there's an awful lot

00:48:51.200 more people on benefits

00:48:52.280 than should be on benefits

00:48:53.320 and for a lot of people

00:48:54.600 it makes no sense

00:48:55.600 to go to work

00:48:56.140 because they're better off,

00:48:57.440 if you're on a sort of

00:48:58.240 minimum wage scenario

00:48:59.280 and you've got two or three kids,

00:49:01.040 you're better off not working.

00:49:02.280 Because you get to have

00:49:03.180 more money

00:49:03.700 and you get to have

00:49:04.880 more liquidity

00:49:06.380 and more cash to spend

00:49:08.180 if you just stay on benefits

00:49:09.600 because you get

00:49:10.740 your housing benefit,

00:49:12.140 you get your council tax paid,

00:49:14.160 you know,

00:49:14.500 you get whatever it is

00:49:15.980 that tops up

00:49:17.100 even small amounts of money

00:49:18.800 that you might make

00:49:19.500 if you do a bit of part-time work,

00:49:20.720 but there's no reason

00:49:21.940 for you to become a waiter

00:49:23.220 in James K.

00:49:24.520 of Arena's restaurant

00:49:25.180 because you're better off

00:49:26.400 not doing it

00:49:26.980 and it's also quite hard work.

00:49:28.580 So I think we've got

00:49:29.180 a class of people

00:49:29.900 in this country

00:49:30.340 who don't want to work

00:49:31.240 but it's not really their fault,

00:49:32.920 it's the government's fault

00:49:33.780 for paying them not to.

00:49:36.720 And it's...

00:49:37.380 You know, in America, for example,

00:49:38.760 and I know this from living there,

00:49:40.220 you get six months unemployment

00:49:41.980 and if after six months

00:49:43.420 you haven't found a job,

00:49:44.720 you don't get any more money.

00:49:46.340 And I think that's a great system

00:49:47.740 because if you can work,

00:49:49.400 you should.

00:49:50.380 And a lot of people in America work

00:49:51.720 because they want the healthcare

00:49:53.260 that goes with it.

00:49:53.960 You know, you need to incentivise

00:49:56.140 people to work

00:49:56.880 and I'm not going to buy 0.99

00:49:57.840 this bullshit that, you know, 0.99

00:49:59.520 oh, all the people have gone back 1.00

00:50:00.880 because of Brexit.

00:50:01.920 I mean, some of them have.

00:50:03.700 Five million, I think, stayed.

00:50:05.380 So it's not true to say

00:50:06.400 that they all left

00:50:06.980 because they didn't like Britain

00:50:08.100 being an isolationist country.

00:50:09.540 But in the end,

00:50:10.880 they were working for less money

00:50:13.240 than British people 0.96

00:50:14.480 were willing to work for.

00:50:16.080 And you have to up the wages.

00:50:17.220 The whole point of Brexit 0.95

00:50:17.940 was to pay people better

00:50:19.500 to make more money.

00:50:20.860 And if that was to happen,

00:50:24.520 I think more people

00:50:25.580 would be working for James

00:50:26.600 than other people, you know?

00:50:28.660 Mike, moving on now,

00:50:29.800 we talked about the past

00:50:31.380 of journalism.

00:50:33.220 What do you think is going to be

00:50:34.060 the future of journalism?

00:50:35.260 We've just, you know,

00:50:36.120 talk TV,

00:50:37.360 you should obviously be talk radio.

00:50:39.240 Now it's talk TV.

00:50:40.240 So what do you think

00:50:41.040 is going to be the future

00:50:42.200 with the media landscape?

00:50:43.680 Well, I think as we move forward,

00:50:45.140 there will become,

00:50:46.160 there will be more

00:50:47.060 kind of fragmentation of it

00:50:48.420 and more people will watch

00:50:50.380 less of one thing.

00:50:52.260 So they will be given

00:50:53.240 a bigger sort of menu

00:50:54.740 of what it is

00:50:55.680 that they want to see, you know?

00:50:56.720 At the moment,

00:50:57.600 there is still

00:50:58.300 a large amount of dominance

00:50:59.960 in terms of the BBC and ITV.

00:51:02.800 Less so Channel 4,

00:51:04.060 less so Channel 5.

00:51:05.940 But what I have seen recently

00:51:07.280 is a move towards

00:51:08.380 more opinionated programming.

00:51:11.160 So Sky have now got an,

00:51:12.640 you know,

00:51:13.180 a sort of an interest

00:51:13.880 in putting out

00:51:14.640 personality-led programs,

00:51:17.760 although their personalities

00:51:19.020 aren't much to write home about,

00:51:20.460 unfortunately.

00:51:21.280 And you've got Sophie Ridge

00:51:22.200 and sort of, you know,

00:51:23.320 Beth Rigby

00:51:23.880 and what's his name,

00:51:26.000 Trevor Phillips.

00:51:27.480 Much of a muchness, you know.

00:51:28.620 Trevor's great.

00:51:29.280 Trevor's a good guy.

00:51:29.940 I'm a big fan of Trevor.

00:51:30.440 He's a good guy,

00:51:31.220 but, you know,

00:51:31.800 are people going to watch him

00:51:33.060 for him?

00:51:34.140 They still don't quite know

00:51:35.220 how to do it.

00:51:35.800 You know,

00:51:35.960 I prefer the American model

00:51:37.060 where people are

00:51:37.900 much more opinionated.

00:51:39.760 There's a lot of journalists

00:51:40.640 in this country

00:51:41.040 who still can't quite

00:51:41.740 get their heads around that.

00:51:42.880 You know,

00:51:43.020 there's nothing wrong

00:51:43.440 with being opinionated.

00:51:44.740 You know,

00:51:45.080 as long as you're willing

00:51:45.860 to take the flack

00:51:46.780 and you're willing

00:51:47.660 to listen to people

00:51:48.400 who might disagree with you,

00:51:49.620 I think people are much more,

00:51:50.980 you know,

00:51:52.240 savvy now about that.

00:51:53.960 And they'd rather watch somebody

00:51:55.180 with a decent opinion

00:51:56.160 than somebody

00:51:57.320 who just tells you

00:51:58.100 that, you know,

00:51:58.540 there's an earthquake

00:51:59.220 in Krakatoa.

00:52:00.620 You know,

00:52:00.940 here's a news program about it

00:52:02.260 and, you know,

00:52:03.080 here's the rest of the news.

00:52:04.000 I think people are liable

00:52:05.780 to be much more kind of specific

00:52:07.740 about what they like.

00:52:09.600 And it won't just be on television.

00:52:11.560 It will be on YouTube.

00:52:12.520 It will be on,

00:52:13.500 you know,

00:52:13.780 different platforms.

00:52:15.140 Podcasting is obviously,

00:52:16.500 you know,

00:52:16.780 still a very popular thing.

00:52:19.280 So I think the major powers

00:52:21.020 like the BBC and ITV

00:52:22.200 will become less powerful

00:52:23.440 over time.

00:52:24.700 And I mean,

00:52:24.960 the BBC is already

00:52:25.660 wrestling with itself.

00:52:26.600 They don't even really know

00:52:27.440 where they are anymore.

00:52:28.720 You know,

00:52:28.940 they tried to hire Matthew Stadlin,

00:52:30.900 which was probably 1.00

00:52:31.740 the stupidest idea 1.00

00:52:32.700 anybody ever had. 1.00

00:52:33.920 And then they decided not to.

00:52:35.600 And you kind of go,

00:52:36.320 well,

00:52:36.420 what was that all about?

00:52:37.600 What,

00:52:37.800 didn't you know

00:52:38.320 that he was a massive,

00:52:39.240 you know,

00:52:40.000 Labourite?

00:52:40.500 Did you not know

00:52:41.140 that he'd been basically

00:52:42.640 having a nervous breakdown

00:52:43.480 on Twitter

00:52:43.920 for the best part

00:52:44.560 of the last two years?

00:52:45.500 I mean,

00:52:46.060 where have you been?

00:52:47.240 And at least have the courage

00:52:48.440 of your convictions

00:52:48.840 and hire him

00:52:49.500 and we can all have

00:52:50.300 a good laugh.

00:52:51.140 You know,

00:52:51.440 I don't even know

00:52:51.920 what Radio 5 Live is about anyway.

00:52:53.400 I haven't listened to it

00:52:53.940 for so long.

00:52:54.520 I don't even know

00:52:54.940 what they do.

00:52:56.320 You know?

00:52:56.680 And Mike,

00:52:57.040 are you,

00:52:58.040 when I say you,

00:52:59.140 I mean TV people.

00:53:00.220 Are you...

00:53:01.360 I've never been described

00:53:02.120 as TV people before,

00:53:03.320 but listen,

00:53:03.740 I'll take it.

00:53:04.280 You are now.

00:53:04.580 You are now.

00:53:06.720 Are you,

00:53:07.520 do you consider us a threat?

00:53:09.460 Are you worried about

00:53:10.480 YouTube and podcasts

00:53:11.920 and all that coming to take it?

00:53:13.140 I don't consider anybody a threat,

00:53:14.100 but it might just be me.

00:53:15.800 No,

00:53:16.040 I think the more the merrier.

00:53:17.260 I think the better

00:53:17.940 the landscape is

00:53:19.660 for the more

00:53:20.220 different opinions

00:53:21.540 and,

00:53:22.220 you know,

00:53:22.440 I respect you guys

00:53:23.180 for what you do.

00:53:24.020 I think what you do

00:53:24.600 is great.

00:53:24.940 I don't listen to everything

00:53:27.480 that you do

00:53:27.980 because nobody's got the time.

00:53:30.060 But,

00:53:30.460 no,

00:53:30.800 I think,

00:53:31.100 I think absolutely

00:53:31.840 the more diverse opinion

00:53:34.240 out there,

00:53:34.860 the better.

00:53:35.820 You know,

00:53:36.040 and I,

00:53:36.400 you know,

00:53:37.060 I can't imagine anything worse

00:53:38.200 than people just agreeing with me.

00:53:40.160 I don't want anyone

00:53:40.760 to really agree with me.

00:53:41.880 I have much better time

00:53:42.760 when people don't agree.

00:53:44.100 But what I would like to see

00:53:45.280 is a bit more tolerance

00:53:46.880 of different opinions,

00:53:48.260 you know,

00:53:48.540 all round,

00:53:49.320 whereby,

00:53:50.200 you know,

00:53:50.380 I know personally people

00:53:51.520 who have never been asked

00:53:53.220 to appear on the BBC

00:53:54.100 because they're considered

00:53:55.000 to be,

00:53:55.400 you know,

00:53:55.680 toxic.

00:53:56.720 Or,

00:53:57.200 you know,

00:53:57.640 you couldn't possibly

00:53:58.320 put them on.

00:53:58.800 I mean,

00:53:58.960 I don't even watch

00:53:59.620 Question Time anymore.

00:54:00.520 Question Time used to be

00:54:01.520 Thursday night fodder for me,

00:54:03.400 no matter what.

00:54:04.120 Same.

00:54:04.500 I would always watch it.

00:54:05.340 I can't remember

00:54:05.800 the last time I watched it

00:54:06.560 because it's so dull,

00:54:08.180 you know.

00:54:09.060 Panorama now

00:54:09.900 is kind of boring.

00:54:11.020 All of the old style stuff

00:54:12.440 has gone.

00:54:13.460 And I think you guys

00:54:15.020 and we maybe

00:54:16.440 to a lesser extent

00:54:17.560 can just be more innovative

00:54:19.020 and we can do things,

00:54:20.460 I mean,

00:54:20.620 I've said to my bosses,

00:54:22.180 I would love to do

00:54:23.220 like some documentary

00:54:24.080 I'd love to do

00:54:25.140 some in-depth,

00:54:26.360 you know,

00:54:27.320 investigations of,

00:54:28.580 you know,

00:54:28.800 stuff that nobody else

00:54:29.980 is really doing

00:54:30.640 because at the moment

00:54:32.000 it's kind of,

00:54:33.200 if it's not on the BBC

00:54:34.080 or dispatches on Channel 4,

00:54:35.860 there's not really much

00:54:36.560 of that going on.

00:54:37.540 And it's hard to do

00:54:38.320 because you need resources,

00:54:39.740 you need a team of people,

00:54:40.760 you need to be able

00:54:41.220 to get things right.

00:54:42.260 Like I said,

00:54:42.820 you know,

00:54:42.960 this business of

00:54:43.640 whether or not pension funds

00:54:45.800 are driving up

00:54:46.440 the price of fuel,

00:54:47.640 that's a great story

00:54:48.800 but you have to really

00:54:50.400 dig into it for a while

00:54:51.400 and it takes a bit of time,

00:54:53.000 it costs a bit of money

00:54:53.640 and I think that

00:54:56.040 the one thing

00:54:56.980 I would say

00:54:57.820 I probably do regret

00:54:58.720 is the sort of upsurge

00:55:00.180 of what I would regard

00:55:01.860 as kind of shills,

00:55:03.040 dodgy types on YouTube,

00:55:05.180 people who sell 0.99

00:55:05.980 themselves to people

00:55:08.100 as if they're telling them

00:55:09.140 some kind of conspiracy theory

00:55:10.400 and we get a lot of this now,

00:55:12.240 you know,

00:55:12.440 it's a lot more frequent

00:55:13.260 than it used to be,

00:55:14.540 you know,

00:55:14.920 like I've had the,

00:55:16.120 you know,

00:55:16.460 the Russian bots after me,

00:55:18.880 you know,

00:55:19.220 for, you know,

00:55:20.180 being too pro-Ukraine,

00:55:21.540 I've had, you know,

00:55:23.020 the anti-vax crowd

00:55:24.280 saying to me

00:55:24.960 that we should be covering,

00:55:25.920 you know,

00:55:26.120 people who are injured

00:55:26.760 by vaccines,

00:55:28.020 you know,

00:55:28.340 all of which we've,

00:55:29.320 you know,

00:55:29.580 we've covered all of these things

00:55:30.740 but you get sort of labelled

00:55:31.960 as, you know,

00:55:32.980 I'm in the pay of Bill Gates,

00:55:34.420 the World Economic Forum

00:55:35.380 and you just kind of go,

00:55:37.080 come on guys.

00:55:38.000 Yeah, you control the opposition

00:55:38.680 just like us, mate.

00:55:39.500 Yeah, when did you take

00:55:40.120 the envelopes

00:55:40.820 and it's like,

00:55:41.420 you know, guys,

00:55:42.180 and I know they're probably

00:55:42.880 not as big of a deal

00:55:43.920 as they make out

00:55:44.920 but there's a lot more

00:55:45.540 of them than there were

00:55:46.180 and I think they get encouraged

00:55:47.900 to be the way they are

00:55:48.860 by certain unscrupulous people

00:55:50.340 who make money out of it,

00:55:51.820 you know,

00:55:52.620 and I think it would be nice

00:55:53.660 if they would disappear

00:55:54.480 but equally,

00:55:55.500 it's not for me to say

00:55:56.200 who should be disappearing,

00:55:58.060 you know,

00:55:58.280 they have to stand

00:55:59.560 on their own merits

00:56:01.060 but I'd like people

00:56:02.860 to be slightly more,

00:56:04.380 I suppose,

00:56:05.300 thoughtful

00:56:05.660 about who they believe

00:56:06.920 and who they don't believe,

00:56:07.820 you know?

00:56:08.520 Mike,

00:56:08.860 do you not worry

00:56:09.400 in this fragmented

00:56:11.420 media landscape

00:56:12.440 that that's just going to mean

00:56:13.760 we're all going to be

00:56:14.360 in our own little silos

00:56:15.480 and we're going to talk

00:56:16.680 to each other less

00:56:17.600 and we're going to share ideas

00:56:19.340 less as a result

00:56:20.260 because if you want

00:56:21.440 right of centre content,

00:56:22.580 you're going to go

00:56:22.940 to this broadcast,

00:56:23.860 if you want left wing content,

00:56:25.040 you're going to go to this,

00:56:26.100 if you want kind of

00:56:26.900 a more libertarian content,

00:56:28.440 you're going to go over here

00:56:29.240 and really,

00:56:30.600 the ideas aren't going

00:56:31.900 to cross pollinate.

00:56:32.840 Well, there's a danger of that

00:56:33.740 but then that's up to us,

00:56:34.740 isn't it?

00:56:35.160 I mean,

00:56:35.360 it's up to us to make sure

00:56:36.320 that that doesn't happen

00:56:37.200 by making sure

00:56:38.440 that we encourage others

00:56:39.840 who maybe we don't believe,

00:56:41.580 like you were saying,

00:56:42.460 Constantine,

00:56:42.780 you get guests on here

00:56:44.720 who you don't necessarily

00:56:46.180 think would fit

00:56:47.460 into your world

00:56:48.400 or in your particular

00:56:49.540 frame of reference

00:56:50.620 and then the people

00:56:51.940 that like you

00:56:52.700 will have a chance

00:56:54.140 to look at that

00:56:54.700 and I think it's up

00:56:55.980 to us all

00:56:56.560 to do that.

00:56:57.980 I mean,

00:56:58.340 there are certain things

00:56:59.100 that I have said,

00:57:01.300 like I will not have

00:57:02.340 these eco nutters

00:57:04.180 on the shows

00:57:05.380 that I do

00:57:05.820 just because I don't think

00:57:06.640 they deserve to get

00:57:07.700 the oxygen publicity

00:57:08.440 but people know

00:57:09.680 they exist

00:57:10.260 and there are plenty

00:57:10.860 of people who

00:57:11.540 argue with me

00:57:12.880 about it on Twitter.

00:57:14.420 I think it's down to us

00:57:15.560 not to become too insular

00:57:17.140 and to make sure

00:57:18.500 that, you know,

00:57:19.520 we continue to bring

00:57:20.700 things to be.

00:57:21.240 I mean,

00:57:21.400 I genuinely have been

00:57:22.420 surprised at how

00:57:23.340 sometimes I'll say something

00:57:24.660 and people go,

00:57:25.880 I didn't know that.

00:57:26.680 You know,

00:57:26.800 I had no idea

00:57:27.320 that that was the case

00:57:28.120 and, you know,

00:57:28.760 I think it's about education,

00:57:29.900 it's about information,

00:57:32.000 certainly not about

00:57:32.880 misinformation,

00:57:33.700 it's not about

00:57:34.420 censoring things.

00:57:36.920 I think the more people

00:57:37.900 know the better

00:57:38.540 because I think

00:57:39.120 I trust people

00:57:39.880 to make sensible choices.

00:57:42.200 The one worry

00:57:43.080 that I have, Mike,

00:57:44.360 is that,

00:57:44.720 and we are constantly

00:57:45.460 battling against this,

00:57:46.680 is that you do see

00:57:48.040 some channels

00:57:48.800 that are captured

00:57:49.960 by their own audience.

00:57:52.060 You know,

00:57:52.360 and they...

00:57:52.640 Like the BBC again,

00:57:53.380 we're talking about.

00:57:53.800 Yeah, exactly.

00:57:55.040 I don't even know

00:57:55.820 that that's true

00:57:56.380 about the BBC.

00:57:56.920 I think a lot of

00:57:57.880 what their audience

00:57:58.680 used to be

00:57:59.220 is actually switching off

00:58:00.280 and they're losing

00:58:00.880 massively in terms

00:58:02.140 of license pairs.

00:58:03.100 Yeah, I'm sure

00:58:03.440 that's true.

00:58:04.020 Actually,

00:58:04.420 they're not captured

00:58:05.060 by their audience.

00:58:05.840 What they are

00:58:06.300 is they're captured

00:58:06.860 by a small group

00:58:07.840 of elite people

00:58:09.440 at the top.

00:58:10.120 Elite,

00:58:10.540 in inverted commas,

00:58:11.420 at the top.

00:58:11.900 Well, there's an awful lot

00:58:12.480 of them.

00:58:13.020 I mean,

00:58:13.260 I'm always constantly

00:58:14.140 amazed at the numbers

00:58:15.080 of people who appear

00:58:16.080 on the BBC news shows

00:58:17.260 and you go,

00:58:18.980 who's that?

00:58:19.800 Science editor?

00:58:20.640 He's like,

00:58:20.820 never seen them before.

00:58:21.920 Where did they come?

00:58:22.500 Yeah, Washington correspondent.

00:58:24.000 You know, incredible.

00:58:25.380 So you mean like

00:58:26.320 smaller things?

00:58:27.000 Yeah.

00:58:27.420 So, you know,

00:58:28.200 they're doing very well

00:58:29.820 and they become,

00:58:30.680 in a sense,

00:58:31.080 captured by their own audience.

00:58:32.200 They're never going

00:58:32.660 to give anything

00:58:33.320 to their audience

00:58:34.500 which contradicts

00:58:35.440 their worldview

00:58:35.920 because they don't want

00:58:37.020 to antagonize,

00:58:38.000 alienate them

00:58:38.540 and therefore make less money.

00:58:39.480 I mean,

00:58:39.640 I think that's right

00:58:40.360 and I mean,

00:58:40.840 I've come up against that

00:58:41.900 as I say in the last

00:58:42.700 couple of years

00:58:43.180 because part of our audience

00:58:45.040 for a while

00:58:45.720 because during the lockdown

00:58:47.180 we were very anti-lockdown,

00:58:48.720 we were very anti-sort of,

00:58:49.820 you know,

00:58:50.320 being told what to do

00:58:51.180 by the government.

00:58:52.120 People then expected us

00:58:53.260 to be sort of,

00:58:54.760 in some ways,

00:58:55.560 anti-COVID

00:58:56.640 and they expected us

00:58:57.700 to come out

00:58:58.120 and say that COVID

00:58:58.900 was a hoax

00:58:59.500 and, you know,

00:59:00.380 people shouldn't get vaccinated 1.00

00:59:01.500 and we didn't do that,

00:59:02.520 they didn't like it

00:59:03.200 but I think you've got to

00:59:04.160 stay true to what it is

00:59:05.240 that you believe.

00:59:05.980 You know,

00:59:06.120 you have to take the path

00:59:07.220 which sometimes means

00:59:09.220 you're going to be,

00:59:09.780 you'll be losing people.

00:59:10.700 I mean,

00:59:10.840 I lost something like

00:59:13.020 2,000 followers

00:59:14.040 one weekend

00:59:14.800 on Twitter

00:59:15.840 because I made a joke

00:59:16.880 about,

00:59:17.980 you know,

00:59:18.120 not a joke exactly

00:59:19.000 but somebody went,

00:59:19.640 don't you think it's important

00:59:20.460 to do vaccine damage?

00:59:21.960 You know,

00:59:22.120 and I went,

00:59:22.420 not really.

00:59:23.340 Literally a throwaway line,

00:59:24.420 you know,

00:59:24.620 and they all went,

00:59:25.240 that's disgrace,

00:59:26.100 you know,

00:59:26.520 he's in the pay of Bill Gates

00:59:27.660 and I'm like,

00:59:29.000 well,

00:59:29.280 you know,

00:59:30.000 the fact is

00:59:30.620 we've vaccinated

00:59:31.440 40 million people

00:59:32.720 and 400 people

00:59:34.420 have had a problem

00:59:35.280 and yes,

00:59:36.320 there are issues with that

00:59:37.560 but you've got to be

00:59:38.460 very careful how you do it

00:59:39.480 and we have actually covered it

00:59:40.560 but, you know,

00:59:41.400 what I won't say

00:59:42.100 is that this is a,

00:59:43.620 you know,

00:59:44.100 deliberate ploy

00:59:44.840 to somehow,

00:59:46.140 you know,

00:59:46.560 microchip people

00:59:47.440 so that we can be told

00:59:48.640 what to do

00:59:49.340 a week on Saturday,

00:59:51.060 you know,

00:59:51.460 when you go out.

00:59:52.240 It's not true.

00:59:53.300 You don't need a microchip

00:59:54.220 for that, mate.

00:59:54.760 We've got the police

00:59:55.440 to come out.

00:59:55.920 Exactly right.

00:59:56.680 But that's what I mean,

00:59:57.320 you know,

00:59:57.540 I think you can be sensible

00:59:58.700 and you can have your views

01:00:01.360 and you have to not be scared

01:00:03.080 of losing your audience.

01:00:03.920 I think there are some

01:00:04.640 broadcasters,

01:00:05.640 I'm not going to name any,

01:00:06.840 who kind of,

01:00:08.340 I would say,

01:00:10.080 exploit their audience

01:00:11.080 by continuing a narrative

01:00:12.820 which they know

01:00:13.780 isn't true

01:00:14.340 and to talk about things

01:00:16.200 like,

01:00:16.560 you know,

01:00:16.820 the WEF

01:00:17.960 and Bill Gates

01:00:19.220 and to talk about

01:00:19.900 this is the biggest,

01:00:20.680 you know,

01:00:20.980 grab of personal data

01:00:23.760 that anybody's ever seen.

01:00:24.980 What do they want to do

01:00:25.740 with it?

01:00:26.620 You know,

01:00:26.900 and we should all be vigilant

01:00:27.680 about it,

01:00:28.460 you know,

01:00:28.700 of course,

01:00:29.340 but,

01:00:29.700 you know,

01:00:30.280 don't frighten people.

01:00:31.240 I think a lot of people

01:00:32.140 out there are scared to death

01:00:33.440 because they genuinely believe

01:00:35.360 that,

01:00:36.120 you know,

01:00:36.560 Klaus Schwab's coming for them.

01:00:38.680 You know,

01:00:39.220 he's not,

01:00:40.340 is he?

01:00:40.640 yet.

01:00:43.100 See?

01:00:44.060 I see what you did there.

01:00:45.620 But that's the thing,

01:00:46.600 you know,

01:00:46.920 and I just,

01:00:47.520 I just think it's really dangerous

01:00:49.020 that,

01:00:49.460 you know,

01:00:50.120 you know,

01:00:50.400 let's not lose

01:00:51.140 the fact that,

01:00:53.920 you know,

01:00:54.240 logic is generally speaking

01:00:55.720 the best place to be.

01:00:57.660 Spoken like a true

01:00:58.460 Bill Gates shill there,

01:00:59.440 Mike.

01:00:59.560 Of course.

01:01:00.540 Thank you.

01:01:01.140 Good to have you back on the show.

01:01:02.520 Always a pleasure chatting with you.

01:01:04.760 We're going to do a couple of questions

01:01:06.200 for our supporters only

01:01:07.500 after the interview,

01:01:08.740 but before we do that,

01:01:09.620 we've got our final questions.

01:01:10.640 As always,

01:01:11.740 which is what's the one thing

01:01:13.020 that we're not talking about

01:01:14.160 as a society

01:01:15.000 that you think we should be?

01:01:16.660 Now,

01:01:16.900 that's interesting

01:01:17.540 because it's hardly anything

01:01:19.680 we don't talk about

01:01:20.640 that you can find

01:01:22.100 where nobody's doing anything.

01:01:24.260 I think one of the things

01:01:25.340 that we don't really say

01:01:26.600 often enough

01:01:27.240 is that most people 0.99

01:01:28.900 don't give a shit 1.00

01:01:29.760 about trans. 1.00

01:01:31.300 No one.

01:01:32.280 Most people I know

01:01:33.260 who are sensible,

01:01:35.320 ordinary citizens

01:01:36.140 of this world,

01:01:37.860 you know,

01:01:38.420 not only do they not know

01:01:39.520 anybody who's trans,

01:01:40.420 but actually

01:01:41.000 they don't care

01:01:42.040 about what they think.

01:01:43.840 And that's not for me

01:01:44.680 to say that I'm therefore

01:01:45.780 going to try and get

01:01:46.580 your window smashed in 0.98

01:01:47.700 by trans activists.

01:01:49.300 But, you know,

01:01:50.280 we had a survey the other day

01:01:51.660 in which it said,

01:01:52.840 you know,

01:01:53.040 people think

01:01:53.640 there's a lot more trans people

01:01:55.080 in Britain

01:01:55.700 than there really are,

01:01:56.760 a lot more minorities,

01:01:57.620 because they get fed

01:01:58.480 because they get fed

01:01:58.500 this constant diet

01:01:59.400 of kind of,

01:01:59.940 you know,

01:02:01.040 the gay movements,

01:02:02.560 the, you know,

01:02:03.100 the queer movements,

01:02:04.200 the curious movement, 0.99

01:02:05.480 whatever the fuck they are, 0.99

01:02:06.800 you know, 1.00

01:02:07.200 they're all, you know,

01:02:08.180 having a great impact

01:02:09.180 on our world.

01:02:09.840 They're really not.

01:02:11.080 You know,

01:02:11.340 I think the truth is

01:02:12.680 that the trans community

01:02:13.580 is something like

01:02:14.100 0.005%

01:02:16.000 of the actual population.

01:02:18.340 And it doesn't really,

01:02:19.680 you know, 0.96

01:02:20.020 all of this crap 0.94

01:02:21.360 about JK Rowling, 0.96

01:02:23.380 about, you know,

01:02:24.700 whether or not

01:02:25.340 trans people

01:02:25.980 can be played by people

01:02:26.960 who aren't trans 0.76

01:02:27.760 in movies,

01:02:28.500 you know,

01:02:29.300 it's really,

01:02:29.760 nobody cares

01:02:30.560 and people don't

01:02:31.260 talk about that,

01:02:32.140 I don't think.

01:02:33.400 Thank you so much.

01:02:34.520 If people want to

01:02:35.280 find you online,

01:02:36.080 where is the best place

01:02:36.900 to do that?

01:02:37.500 Well,

01:02:37.720 Twitter is where I'm mostly,

01:02:38.960 which is at IROMG,

01:02:40.340 the Independent Republic

01:02:41.020 of Mike Graham.

01:02:41.800 Some people mistakenly

01:02:42.760 think it's Iron Mike,

01:02:43.840 which they call me,

01:02:44.560 which have never been called

01:02:45.560 and they have a go at me

01:02:46.760 going,

01:02:47.000 what sort of conceited 0.99

01:02:47.780 arsehole calls himself 0.99

01:02:48.820 Iron Mike?

01:02:49.440 It's not a name.

01:02:50.980 I don't call myself that.

01:02:51.240 There's a UFC fighter

01:02:52.120 who calls himself

01:02:52.720 Iron Mike.

01:02:53.100 Well,

01:02:53.260 there was Iron Mike Tyson,

01:02:54.360 of course.

01:02:54.520 Yeah,

01:02:54.820 and Iron Mike Chandler,

01:02:56.800 I think.

01:02:56.900 There's probably a few of them,

01:02:58.000 but I'm certainly

01:02:58.700 not one of them.

01:03:00.600 I'm on Facebook as well,

01:03:02.080 but better or worse,

01:03:03.200 and just find me

01:03:03.780 on Talk TV,

01:03:04.900 which is where I'm

01:03:05.520 pretty much all the time.

01:03:06.760 Perfect.

01:03:07.280 Thank you very much, Mike.

01:03:08.360 Been a pleasure as always.

01:03:09.440 And thank you for watching

01:03:10.520 and listening.

01:03:11.340 We will see you

01:03:12.060 with another brilliant episode

01:03:13.160 like this one

01:03:13.840 in a few days.

01:03:15.760 Thanks for watching.

01:03:16.660 I'll see you soon.

01:03:17.960 And for those of you

01:03:18.640 who like your

01:03:19.080 Trigonometry on the go,

01:03:20.300 it's also available

01:03:21.140 as a podcast.

01:03:22.480 Take care

01:03:22.940 and see you soon, guys.

01:03:24.140 Listen,

01:03:26.740 I'm a great believer

01:03:27.400 in owning nothing,

01:03:28.340 you know?

01:03:29.080 Rent everything,

01:03:29.960 because that way

01:03:30.480 nobody can come after you.

01:03:32.140 Thank you.

01:03:33.140 Thank you.

01:03:33.520 Thank you.

01:03:33.580 Thank you.

01:03:33.620 Thank you.

01:03:33.680 Thank you.

01:03:33.740 Thank you.

01:03:33.760 Thank you.

01:03:33.780 Thank you.

01:03:33.820 Thank you.

01:03:33.840 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - June 20, 2022

＂Politicians Ignore Most Issues People Actually Care About＂ - Mike Graham

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