Porn, Only Fans and Bodycount - Candice Horbacz
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 5 minutes
Words per Minute
206.5452
Summary
Candice Candice is a former adult actress, writer, and podcaster. She's also the author of The Purity Ring, and co-host of the podcast Purity Culture. Candice joins Betsy and Amanda this week to talk all things sex, purity rings, and sex education.
Transcript
00:00:00.700
Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.
00:00:06.520
The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love,
00:00:11.780
including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.
00:00:15.780
Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise.
00:00:22.660
April 28th through June 7th, 2026, The Princess of Wales Theatre.
00:00:30.980
I'm so getting, this is actually something I can get cancelled for, even though it's absolutely true.
00:00:42.200
It could be the way that your fingernails are clipped.
00:00:50.680
And like I said, I really appreciate how brave you guys are that I'm teaching.
00:00:54.240
Yeah, but if I hold, well, I held the mug the wrong way and now a woman's got the ick.
00:01:02.440
So, you mentioned something very interesting there, which is all day foreplay.
00:01:07.440
Broadway's smash hit, The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.
00:01:15.820
The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs
00:01:20.340
you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.
00:01:25.080
Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.
00:01:31.800
Now through June 7th, 2026 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.
00:01:42.200
We really wanted to talk to you because you're kind of in this super unique position in that
00:01:46.420
you're a former adult actress, but you're also kind of, you know, in a more center-right
00:01:55.620
And then there's all these weird conversations now happening online, like, body count and
00:02:00.160
OnlyFans are all this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:02:03.080
Like, what do you make of all the stuff that's going on?
00:02:05.540
So, I think that there are unhealthy examples of sexuality on the fringes and that even most
00:02:10.840
people kind of in the middle of that bell curve also have an unhealthy relationship to
00:02:14.700
the sex and sensuality and pleasure in general.
00:02:19.740
So, one which is, like, shame, purity culture, purity rings, and then the other which is
00:02:29.880
And you can do it all without getting attached.
00:02:34.220
So, before you go into it, what is a purity ring?
00:02:36.400
I hope it's not something that I don't want to have the visual of.
00:02:40.920
So, a purity ring is given to you by a boyfriend or a dad.
00:02:46.320
And you put it on your wedding ring finger, and you make a promise to that man or boy
00:02:53.100
and God, and you say that you're saving yourself for marriage.
00:03:05.220
I felt a weird calling and pull to express myself sexually in what I thought was a safe container
00:03:14.400
And I think that you can learn a lot about yourself through sex.
00:03:19.320
You learn a lot about yourself when you're thrown into the fire, because that's obviously
00:03:26.540
But what I've learned through all of that is that there is no right answer for everybody.
00:03:33.400
And you have these people that are preaching to you that there is this one and only way
00:03:40.320
I don't think that we need to hold on to this shame.
00:03:43.580
Like, yes, there are certain versions of shame that are healthy and useful, but that's not
00:03:47.840
Like, I'm seeing it used against you, weaponized.
00:03:50.520
It's meant to make you detached from yourself, from your pleasure, from your life force.
00:03:54.960
And then this other thing is equally much of a problem, which is telling mostly young women
00:03:59.900
to just sleep with everybody, be the cool girl, and do it all without catching feelings.
00:04:08.420
That's, you know, one of the interesting things that I really took away from our conversation
00:04:12.400
with you and with Ayla, who we had on some time ago as well, was that, like, I don't think
00:04:20.700
Because I remember talking to her, and it was just, it was very authentically her, the
00:04:26.000
lifestyle that she leads, that most women absolutely do not want to have, right?
00:04:30.000
So it seems like all of this advice that people are seeing on the internet, young men, young
00:04:34.680
women especially, it's like this generalized stereotypical thing that's being imposed on
00:04:41.960
And then there comes the uber shame part of it, which is when someone is wired differently,
00:04:47.300
they're like a whore or a slut or whatever straight away.
00:04:54.280
And I think that she is living her life authentically.
00:04:56.880
And she was posting one of her outrageous tweets that she typically does.
00:05:00.600
It might have been around, like, an orgy party or something like that.
00:05:09.340
She's like, this is a lot of words to say my father wasn't in my life.
00:05:12.520
And then everyone in the comment section actually came to Ayla's defense because she came from
00:05:16.900
a traditional background, super religious, conservative, traditional.
00:05:21.860
So maybe let's not just put your blind assumption on this because people do, there are, the fringes
00:05:27.860
do exist in authenticity, but it's about 5%, 5%, right?
00:05:31.580
So they've done studies and it's literally 5% of women that tend to have a sex drive very
00:05:36.160
similar to a man where they can have casual sex, not get attached emotionally, and it
00:05:43.080
Most women, when they have sex, they leave feeling used, dirty, discarded.
00:05:47.160
So the context of does a woman want casual sex, like the safety parameter has to be there
00:05:53.400
So a lot of people will use this study incorrectly, the findings of this study, and they'll
00:05:58.240
say, well, we went to a college campus and we asked a bunch of men, would you have
00:06:02.580
casual sex with this girl that they don't know?
00:06:07.000
They did it to women and they're like, absolutely not.
00:06:09.180
They're like, see, women don't like casual sex.
00:06:12.120
You're like missing a really important factor here.
00:06:15.060
So what they did is they found a really attractive man that the girl knew and trusted.
00:06:18.840
And they're like, would you have a one night stand with this guy?
00:06:24.600
So you have to include the safety element when you're talking about women where like we're
00:06:29.520
So of course, most women who are doing cost-benefit analysis, you're not going to take some random
00:06:34.360
guy home from the bar, go to his place and have sex.
00:06:38.420
Now introduce or like swap out random guy at the bar for some guy that you've been friends
00:06:42.460
with for a long time, but you don't really see a long-term relationship.
00:06:45.600
Well, she might consider changing her tune on that.
00:06:50.820
Plus as well, there's also the societal element of it where a woman knows that she will be shamed
00:06:55.600
and people will say certain things about her name calling.
00:07:07.600
And I think there is this thing that's going around in the evolutionary biology crew and
00:07:12.180
they're saying, well, that it's bringing up the expectations for all other women.
00:07:23.020
There have always been women that are more available than others, right?
00:07:26.220
So that never cost the high esteemed ladies of the court to change what they were doing.
00:07:34.020
Everyone has a different amount that they require or that they need.
00:07:37.460
And again, it's not to fall into one pre-prescribed bucket that someone's telling you.
00:07:42.580
I think the whole shame concept is really dated.
00:07:45.440
You have to say, like, what is healthy sex to me?
00:07:50.300
And I have so many people that ask me all the time, do you regret anything that you've
00:08:00.940
And it's this fallacy of I couldn't see myself doing it.
00:08:07.460
So you can't tell me that my decisions are incorrect because you can't put yourself or
00:08:12.920
And I see this time and time again with the body count discussion, where I see lots of
00:08:17.500
people on the right going, oh, you know, women can't commit because their body count
00:08:24.020
And a lot of these people are all about all facts and logic and stats.
00:08:27.760
And I'm going, where are you getting this from?
00:08:33.380
So all these men that are in the red pill community that are up in arms saying all of
00:08:37.500
these women are now e-girls and they're all whores.
00:08:45.900
Like most people, that is where they're scoring.
00:08:48.900
Also, it's what is what are you trying to gain from that question?
00:08:56.300
There's this girl that's going super viral because she's trying to sleep with a thousand
00:09:03.140
And she's capitalizing on it because it's not normal.
00:09:08.280
But you see that and then people are like, that's all women.
00:09:12.280
No, the reason that she's doing that for and she's gaining so much attention because it
00:09:19.880
I don't think that you should bring it to a first date.
00:09:21.740
I think that says that that person is really sexually immature if they're asking that or
00:09:31.160
If you have questions around sexuality, it's like, what do you like?
00:09:35.320
Like you can talk about those kinds of experiences.
00:09:39.440
But like later on, if you're interested in that person's sexual experience, then do that.
00:09:45.800
I don't understand what that's really providing you at depth.
00:09:48.200
Here's the thing that never gets said about this, Candice, that since we're friends,
00:09:51.800
we might be able to discuss kind of amicably and in a friendly way, which is a man's concern
00:09:58.820
about his potential partner's number of sex encounters is based on essentially an attempt
00:10:07.340
to assess how faithful she is likely to be in the course of their relationship.
00:10:13.700
And the reason this matters evolutionarily is that paternal certainty is the thing that
00:10:20.300
Like the worst thing from an evolutionary perspective, you know, all this for a guy is that you're
00:10:25.540
raising someone else's kids because from a genetic point of view, you know, we know
00:10:29.240
that it's the genes trying to replicate themselves.
00:10:31.400
Well, if I'm investing all my resources into replicating someone else's genes, that's kind
00:10:38.040
So men are going to want to assess how likely their potential partner is to cheat, right?
00:10:46.620
Now, I'm not saying that sleeping with many people in the course of consensual blah, blah,
00:10:51.220
blah is an indicator of faithfulness, but that's probably where it stems from.
00:10:57.400
But to kind of emphasize your point, I don't think that there's any correlation to being
00:11:01.400
faithful and part and how many partners you have.
00:11:05.500
I don't think so, because if you look at marriages specifically, men and women tend to cheat equally.
00:11:12.060
And then it's about 30 percent of marriages, I think, after five years, someone is cheating.
00:11:17.020
So if you go back to the statistic that most people have only slept with an average of five
00:11:22.060
I don't think by anyone's standard, especially if you're getting married later on in life.
00:11:27.140
So if both people are at five and we're agreeing that that's not really a lot of people, then
00:11:31.420
it's not really telling you a lot about whether they're cheating or not.
00:11:34.040
And then also when it comes to how many partners a person has had, people tend to kind of find
00:11:42.180
So if someone is more conservative and they tend to be more limiting with their sexual
00:11:47.380
encounters, they find someone that matches that.
00:11:49.660
And then promiscuous people tend to find promiscuous people.
00:11:54.140
And then that tends to lead to a lot less judgment.
00:12:01.580
So I think where the issue would be is if you have a discrepancy between how both of
00:12:04.760
you look at sexuality and that should be a conversation.
00:12:08.100
There are so many married couples that I don't want to say it's an average of 70 percent of
00:12:13.360
married couples are not comfortable talking about their sexual desires, needs and fantasies
00:12:19.340
And then we know that being able to have that open communication about what your fantasies
00:12:24.400
are with your spouse leads to relationship satisfaction, which leads to health and longevity
00:12:30.320
So we have to have the conversation of like, why is this shame still lingering, even in the
00:12:38.220
Because, you know, again, looking at it from a societal point of view, this is what you
00:12:43.080
are saying, really, is where the needs of society.
00:12:47.540
I'm using my hand vertically for a purpose, right?
00:12:50.580
From above is kind of somewhat oppressive to the preferences of the individual.
00:12:57.060
That's kind of what that that's what society does.
00:13:01.580
So historically, we've always we society has always not only wanted but needed to control
00:13:09.240
And the more traditional the society, the more that like burkas are the perfect example of
00:13:14.600
So, as I said, from your conversation was with you and with Ayla, I see that some people
00:13:23.520
But what but I do wonder when you start saying, well, everyone's different and whatever.
00:13:27.940
It's almost like we do need some kind of standard because otherwise, I think, like you said, young
00:13:35.120
women in particular get misled into thinking, oh, just go and have as much sex as you want.
00:13:45.040
I think we have been we have become so detached from our own inner knowing.
00:13:50.460
We all know when like we shouldn't go down that alley or that's maybe a dodgy person,
00:13:55.920
But we're so disconnected from that that we don't listen to that intuition.
00:13:59.400
If you are the type of person that if you are engaging with someone, even if it's not
00:14:03.100
sexually, it's just you're starting that romantic endeavor and you feel like needy.
00:14:08.260
I don't like that word a ton, but you feel needy and you have these unmet needs and you're
00:14:12.140
reaching out all the time and you feel that connection.
00:14:14.800
Well, maybe casual sex is probably not a good idea for you.
00:14:17.420
And then if you're the type of person that you can do that and it really doesn't bother
00:14:23.060
But I do think you have to get down to first principles of sex, pleasure, sensuality.
00:14:30.640
And you have authors like Napoleon Hill and David Data that talk about sexual transmutation.
00:14:37.100
So I think it's when you talk about oppression coming from the top, I think it's really intentional.
00:14:41.680
And I don't think it was only directed towards women.
00:14:44.040
I think that we wanted to disconnect people from realizing their agency, their autonomy,
00:14:49.540
Because if I can connect to God, if I can connect to source and like find my own abundance internally
00:14:54.640
and with my own tribe, I don't need the church.
00:15:07.820
And women traditionally have been the gatekeepers of sexuality.
00:15:10.940
You had the old high priestesses, the mystics, the healers, and they did use sex for a lot
00:15:17.740
So there's a whole bunch of reasons that we've kind of gone after the witch or gone
00:15:22.040
So again, I think it's going back to like, what does this mean to me going down to first
00:15:26.820
And do I want to treat it like it's something sacred and something that I should only be
00:15:34.940
I think that if you are going to be sharing that space with someone, that person needs
00:15:39.860
Like they need to deserve that time and that moment with you.
00:15:44.920
Like it doesn't mean a lifetime with that person, but it does mean that you should check out
00:15:50.600
And like, again, is he a safe person to do that act with?
00:15:55.140
It's interesting you say that because, forgive me, you're an adult, a former adult actress.
00:16:10.160
So I was under the guise that it meant nothing at all.
00:16:14.920
And I think I was so numb to a point that I was able to do it and like not have any feelings.
00:16:25.460
So, you know, I don't look back with any negative light.
00:16:28.960
But the way that I approached sex then was very different than I would now.
00:16:32.900
And I know that it's going to sound crazy to most people, but it is different.
00:16:37.260
And you would only know if you've been able to experience both.
00:16:40.120
When you have sex and it's for a performative piece, it's for entertainment, it's very different
00:16:45.420
than having sex with someone because you want to connect with them, whether that is for a moment or for a lifetime.
00:16:50.700
So imagine that you're being intimate with someone and there's 20 guys in the room,
00:16:54.520
some guy's eating chips, another guy's wiping off the counters.
00:17:00.260
So maybe that was also part of it, too, and why it was easy to disconnect, because it's certainly not intimate.
00:17:05.880
You know, we're talking about performing for camera.
00:17:08.660
And one of the things that I found particularly worrying is the OnlyFans phenomenon.
00:17:12.580
And I think it's, look, for a small number of people, it's absolutely fine to do OnlyFans.
00:17:17.760
But it just seems that more and more young women are going down this path in order to make money and monetize.
00:17:24.660
And my concern is, look, that may work for the short term.
00:17:28.120
Long term, if you want to go and become a surgeon, if you want to, look, even be a mom,
00:17:32.960
and then these images get repeated, this is a reputation destroyer, isn't it?
00:17:39.740
So, first, I have been a very big proponent of raising the age for adult content to 25.
00:17:49.560
I got in when I was 21, and that was still probably a little bit too young.
00:17:53.900
You mean for, sorry, to interrupt, for participation or for viewing?
00:17:59.480
Can we just start with why, and then we'll go on to the other stuff.
00:18:01.500
I don't think that you can understand second, third, fourth order of consequences of making that decision.
00:18:07.040
Even now, as a 35-year-old woman, I still get things that come at me.
00:18:10.720
I was like, didn't see that coming from this thing.
00:18:12.960
So, if you have a decision that is that immense, it's going to affect every part of your life that you touch, like your family members.
00:18:19.800
If you have kids, where you work, your future, it's something that you can't wash away, no matter what you do, unless you become a billionaire and just, like, swipe the internet clean.
00:18:30.340
You also don't understand what your value is, what the value of money is.
00:18:34.140
So, you might see 300 bucks, and you're like, score, this is better than working at my nine-to-five.
00:18:41.540
And it's also extremely hard to see the numbers that you're seeing.
00:18:45.080
So, it's almost intentionally misleading for a lot of young women.
00:18:48.580
So, you'll see, like, the Corinnas, and she's like, I made $65 million over the last three years.
00:18:54.800
There are 500 creators in the world out of 5 million that are pulling seven figures a year.
00:19:02.900
So, the chances of you doing that are almost impossible.
00:19:06.880
You're better off playing, like, the Powerball.
00:19:08.760
So, if you're doing it for money or for fame, there are a million other ways that you can do that that cause way less stress to you and your future.
00:19:18.340
I think that back when movies were, like, the primary source of adult entertainment, that made more sense because, like, the gatekeepers were so immense.
00:19:29.680
You deal with suitcase pimps, which they put on ads online, and then you have girls that are showing up to really dodgy apartments or basements, and they're shooting this thing.
00:19:41.900
I don't see that passing because there's way too much money in it.
00:19:44.580
I use Ground News every day to cut through the noise and find the truth.
00:19:49.840
They gather articles from over 50,000 news sources around the world and help you break free from big tech algorithms and echo chambers, something that's incredibly important in our polarized time.
00:20:01.380
Go to ground.news slash trigonometry to see how it works.
00:20:05.380
A feature I rely on is the Blindspot feed, which highlights stories that are disproportionately covered by either the left or the right.
00:20:12.240
With this, I know I'm never missing important news.
00:20:15.120
It's great for recognizing your own biases and gaining a balanced perspective.
00:20:18.920
Here's a story that is getting no coverage on the right whatsoever.
00:20:22.580
Russia open to hearing Trump's proposals for ending the war, an official says.
00:20:26.680
And here's one that doesn't appear in left-leaning outlets.
00:20:29.640
Majority of Americans support Trump's plan to declare emergency at the border.
00:20:33.380
Ground News helps you see the bigger picture with insights like the number of sources reporting, their reliability, and their bias distribution across the political spectrum.
00:20:42.240
You can't get this type of news analysis anywhere else.
00:20:45.560
Trigonometry viewers who subscribe through our link can get 40% off their unlimited access vantage plan, the same plan that we use.
00:20:53.820
Just click the link in the description or scan the QR code and subscribe at ground.news slash trigonometry.
00:21:00.220
Your subscription helps Ground News bring transparency back to the media, which is something I fully endorse.
00:21:05.960
And what we now see is younger and younger women taking part, but also more and more women taking part.
00:21:19.680
And that's going to have repercussions way down the line for society, not just the women involved.
00:21:27.620
So you have to decide if that juice is worth the squeeze or if that cost is worth that action.
00:21:32.940
When it comes to making adult content, I'm not anti-adult content.
00:21:36.860
I just wish more people were doing it in alignment.
00:21:39.060
And that is going to sound crazy to some people, but you can do something that is art or self-expression, and you can do something that's for a paycheck.
00:21:48.900
If you Google me, there's stuff that I will die on the hill that it was art, and then there's other stuff.
00:21:54.660
It's like it's obvious that that was just like a quick whatever.
00:21:58.800
If you have someone that is doing it as an authentic expression of themselves and it brings them fulfillment, it's nothing about money.
00:22:08.140
And then what other people judge or do is not my business, and that's kind of how I would look at it, right?
00:22:15.220
Use that money wisely, and then how do you want to evolve past that?
00:22:21.340
I know some women that they're going to do it until they're 80 years old.
00:22:26.540
But if you do have the young woman that's doing it because she's in a hard spot or she, again, wants to get like a quick on-ramp to fame or money, I would say this is not the way to do it because, again, the cost is so high.
00:22:39.400
Additionally, I think we have to have a bigger conversation of why we are casting these women that make this decision out of society.
00:22:45.980
And somehow we're saying because they were sexual, they can no longer participate in civilized discussions, businesses, and industries.
00:22:53.740
Because just because you're sexual doesn't mean you have a low IQ or you're incapable of working like a da Vinci surgery machine.
00:23:00.560
And it's also as well, there's a fundamental hypocrisy there of men shaming these women, going, look what a whore she was back then.
00:23:07.400
It's like, dude, you watch porn and you've watched her content.
00:23:13.140
Well, here's the funny thing is no one watches porn and it is really terrible for society and all men.
00:23:18.220
But somehow Pornhub has 150 million unique viewers a day.
00:23:21.760
So I don't know where they're getting those numbers because no one's watching it.
00:23:25.520
You know, it's such a profound point because there's something that we need to talk about here is if you look at the suicide rates of a lot of the girls who take part in this, it's horrific.
00:23:41.780
So I think a lot of people that especially are on the conservative side of everything tend to link that to porn.
00:23:46.680
And they're like, obviously, this industry is toxic and these women can't handle it.
00:23:54.120
But what I see as well, and I don't know how you would delineate which one is which, is that it is impossible to go back into society.
00:24:01.560
If I wanted to go be a teacher, absolutely not.
00:24:03.700
If I want to be a doctor, I'd probably get laughed out of whatever school I was in.
00:24:07.100
Anything that I tried to do that wasn't me being self-made is just not going to work.
00:24:11.100
So if you have that and you have all of this judgment and we don't have any room for grace, redemption, or transmutation, then what are we doing?
00:24:18.820
What is that saying about us as a society as whole?
00:24:21.380
Is our shame so innate and so powerful that anyone that tries to escape whatever that conditioning is, we have to reel them back in?
00:24:29.500
Because then that forces us to, like, challenge ourselves and look at ourselves and say, do I really want this or not?
00:24:34.980
Because your existence is a threat to everything that I've been told is right and good.
00:24:42.500
Because whether, like, I think your former career was the right thing or the wrong thing, I don't see how it would be disqualifying to another career now.
00:24:58.360
I can see why people might argue about a teacher because you're around kids.
00:25:02.000
They're going to Google you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
00:25:04.600
But with most other things, I just don't see why there would be that reluctance.
00:25:11.420
Like, again, whether I thought porn was right or wrong, I wouldn't, if someone applied for a job as, like, a producer on our show,
00:25:19.400
I wouldn't be like, oh, that person did porn, therefore, no.
00:25:23.820
So why do we as a society seem to think about it in that way?
00:25:27.160
Again, I think it goes back to our own shame that a lot of people are holding on to.
00:25:32.760
It was during the pandemic, there was this woman, and she was, like, a paramedic or an EMT.
00:25:38.120
And it was found out that she started an OnlyFans.
00:25:41.940
She was doing it because her shifts got cut in half.
00:25:45.080
I think it was during lockdown, and she needed to make money to literally keep the lights on.
00:25:49.880
So one of her co-workers found her OnlyFans account, tells her boss she gets fired, but he doesn't.
00:25:56.840
So he's obviously on the site as a consumer, and there's no repercussions for that.
00:26:02.000
But because she was the one that was making the content, she's now fired because that's not okay.
00:26:06.520
So if you're going to have rules, at least have it be the same for both parties, right?
00:26:10.340
It's either you are making some claim for your company and you stand against this, whatever.
00:26:15.880
Okay, well, then that also applies to the consumer, not just the woman.
00:26:19.400
And you use words like shame and guilt and all of this stuff a lot.
00:26:26.300
So I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Europe tends to have a much more open relationship when it comes to sexuality.
00:26:33.080
Like there are PSAs that I've seen in Germany where there's two naked people, and they knock on the door with a laptop, and this mom opens it.
00:26:45.360
He's upstairs, and then they teach her about internet safety.
00:26:48.020
So they're approaching it from a really responsible and pragmatic way, right?
00:26:52.260
These kids and their safety online are your responsibility as the parent, not ours as the performers.
00:26:57.660
Here, it's let's ban everything, which is so funny, especially in Texas, because we're supposed to talk about freedom, but only for freedoms that we agree with on certain topics.
00:27:07.360
But when the United States was settled, we had King James that had like the Puritans, and they were insufferable.
00:27:13.500
He's like, I've got to get these people out of here.
00:27:15.520
Even the Christians were like, these people are nuts.
00:27:18.300
And the Puritans were calling all these other Christians the others because they thought they were so much better.
00:27:22.800
So they shove all these Puritans on a boat, take them over to the United States, and then they're like some of our founding fathers, and they developed our first cities and our first towns.
00:27:37.540
So that does leave a certain frequency and expectation on a people.
00:27:41.700
But I think the shame exists not just in the United States and not just in countries with a Puritan mindset.
00:27:50.500
I think it's probably quite universal around the world.
00:27:53.600
And I think it's got to be something about what Frances mentioned earlier, which is the existence of women who are available, in whatever shape or form that is, is a threat to the wives or whoever.
00:28:09.620
And as you talked about, it's also a, it's kind of like you're devaluing the currency, right?
00:28:16.180
When there's more sex, more of something is available, the price goes down, right?
00:28:24.860
That's driving the shame and the guilt that exists, because it's a way to basically make sure that the value of sex is high.
00:28:33.060
So you can exchange it for marriage, safety, money, whatever, in that way.
00:28:37.660
Well, yeah, it's absolutely being weaponized for sure.
00:28:39.900
But if you look at, you know, one of our closest primate relatives, the bonobo, like those females use sex all the time to get what they want.
00:28:46.520
So they'll pretend that they're an estrus and get a guy to help make them a nest or to bring them meat or whatever it is, because they have that need.
00:28:58.280
And women's sexuality, I think, before like Christianity kind of swept through the world, it was treated a little bit different.
00:29:10.920
And even once that became institutionalized, the average marriage was 10 years before someone died.
00:29:16.680
So this whole concept of monogamy, Esther Perel has a really good bit on it.
00:29:22.580
So monogamy was one person for the rest of my life.
00:29:32.200
So this version of monogamy has been kind of ever changing.
00:29:35.760
So you look at these divorce rates and you can say that these promiscuous women are the cause of it.
00:29:42.100
Well, no, like the whole idea of marriage is relatively new.
00:29:46.380
And I think the biggest problem with a lot of marriages and why they're failing is no one is looking at it and saying, what are my needs?
00:29:52.000
We're trying to just take this blank, like this blank canvas and say this applies to everybody.
00:29:57.480
And it's like, no, like I have different needs.
00:30:02.980
Some people, it's watching pornography is considered cheating.
00:30:06.060
Some people, if you go to a Hooters, that's cheating.
00:30:08.320
So you have to have these conversations of expectations for the relationship.
00:30:14.020
And then, yeah, so I don't, I think blaming porn and promiscuity is, it's kind of like lazy thinking in a way.
00:30:21.000
And that when you have a certain group of people that are constantly blaming the same boogeyman, we can't take this seriously.
00:30:28.020
I think most of our problems are super layered and complex.
00:30:30.860
And that's not to say that porn is not a problem.
00:30:38.000
But I don't think that the answer is creating these bans that we see.
00:30:41.300
And I think it's eight states now that are putting up this paywall.
00:30:44.920
And it's, in my opinion, it's actually creating more dangerous behavior online and doing so.
00:30:50.100
So tell us more about that when you say, so in Texas, it's illegal?
00:30:53.260
It's not illegal, but if you try to access a site, it'll say, like Pornhub, for example, they pulled out because they're suing the state.
00:31:00.680
So they made the choice, but they list the legislation and it would require you to upload a government issued ID.
00:31:08.260
And in some states, it's also a facial scan before you access.
00:31:17.660
And then the other issue is that these main companies that everyone kind of wants to target have the most above board content.
00:31:23.860
Like they have the most legal content and they're listening.
00:31:27.600
So you force these kids to then go to these dodgy honeypot sites that are not following the same rules.
00:31:33.860
And you don't know how ethical that content is.
00:31:38.280
And then additionally, it's over 80 percent of littles that like minors that come across adult content for the first time.
00:31:50.440
So you do this thing under the guise of safety and protecting kids.
00:31:53.800
Now you have parents that are like, oh, I don't need to worry because the state just put the filter on.
00:31:57.980
Well, no, you actually do need to worry because that's not where they're going to find it anyways.
00:32:00.880
It's such a good point because I remember when I was a primary school teacher and the kids had sex ed lessons.
00:32:08.420
And for people watching this, what that actually meant was it taught kids how to be safe.
00:32:13.700
It said to them, look, if somebody tries to touch you here, this is bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:32:21.960
And I remember one parent saying to me like, oh, that isn't going to happen.
00:32:29.740
And I was like, well, OK, but your kid's got the latest iPhone.
00:32:35.580
And you just saw the light come on in their eyes.
00:32:38.040
So I think the problem is, is that people don't realize they they hand everything over, for instance, to the state and go, oh, the state will keep me safe without realizing that kids are smart.
00:32:48.440
They're far more technologically adept than them.
00:32:50.580
And they're going to be able to get around these paywalls, for example.
00:32:55.200
So it's super easy for them to get wherever they want.
00:32:57.640
I think it is mind blowing and reckless parenting when you see parents that are giving an iPhone unrestricted to their child.
00:33:07.620
Like you cannot play or entertain or engage with your kid to the extent that you have to give them a phone.
00:33:14.540
I think at some point, yes, they need to have access and they need to learn safe protocols, self-control, delayed gratification.
00:33:20.880
How do I feel when I watch this amount of screen time?
00:33:24.180
Like you don't give a tool to someone who's not ready or mature enough to handle it.
00:33:31.920
Do you think part of the problem as well with the way that we're having this conversation, and I see the way that men behave online.
00:33:38.080
And it kind of makes me think there are very few people that can make a man feel inadequate than a woman.
00:33:53.720
So women have this power, and a lot of men are uncomfortable with it.
00:33:57.540
And it makes them angry because they realize that they are not in control.
00:34:09.920
I applaud you because if I were in charge of dating, I would die alone.
00:34:15.900
I would be way too terrified to approach anyone out of fear of rejection.
00:34:19.940
So I think it's very brave to be a man and be in the dating pool.
00:34:23.860
Yes, I think there are a small group of men that see women that don't need a man, right?
00:34:29.060
Because now they can provide for themselves in every realistic way.
00:34:35.460
So I think we're giving them way too much power, and we're listening to their voice a little bit too much.
00:34:42.480
I mean, I've seen some girls that are like, I'm going to milk everyone dry.
00:34:47.600
I try to be really conscientious about how I do content.
00:34:51.700
If I see unhealthy behavior, I stop it really quickly.
00:34:54.540
And even just from a safety standpoint, I think that that's necessary.
00:34:57.260
But we talk about these girls and how easy it is to make this money.
00:35:00.860
A, it's not, because again, only 500 people in the world are making serious money off of this.
00:35:05.660
But then you have to look at the bigger infrastructure, because if you look at all of the industries, they're still ran by men.
00:35:10.600
So what these women, even the one that's like $65 million over three years, that's laughable to the guy that actually owns OnlyFans.
00:35:17.540
So no, women are not taking over, and they're not trying to eradicate men, I think, at scale.
00:35:22.800
I think it's just a bunch of what you would call incels that have always existed, but now they don't have wars to go fight or villages to go raid.
00:35:31.660
And also as well, I've just been looking at the way that women and men have been interacting in real life.
00:35:37.700
It seems, and maybe this is anecdotal evidence, but women are complaining that men don't approach anymore, that it's becoming harder and harder to date.
00:35:47.340
You know, people are becoming ever more increasingly lonely.
00:35:52.200
Porn must have a massive impact on that, because if you're a young dude, why are you going to take the risk?
00:35:59.560
Why are you going to risk potentially, you know, being humiliated?
00:36:03.500
Why are you going to risk any of that when you can stay at home, watch porn, get that out of the way, and then go about your day?
00:36:09.780
Well, no, so that also doesn't track, because the average man goes to a porn site two or three times a week, and he's on for four minutes.
00:36:26.060
Like, if you have a guy that's only going on two or three days a week, I don't think that that's sufficient enough for him to give up on dating, having a human connection.
00:36:32.360
And then also the neurochemistry that releases when you have an orgasm by yourself is entirely different versus when you're with someone else.
00:36:39.620
I think everyone who's had both experiences can attest to that.
00:36:42.880
So it's almost like comparing, like lighting a match to a firework.
00:36:46.200
So, yes, one thing is temporarily satisfying, but I don't think it's going to satiate this greater need that we have, which as human beings is to replicate, right?
00:36:57.240
So, yes, I do think that that might relieve some pressure, but I see that as a good thing because I know so many guys that have so much anxiety before they go on a date.
00:37:05.600
So they'll do that and they can show up calm and collective and see the woman for something other than a sexual being.
00:37:16.420
Because I think when we over-sexualize people, that can kind of hide a lot of red flags and then you can dismiss a lot of really bad behavior because you're really attracted to them.
00:37:26.620
So if you can do this, get the edge off, you almost see the person more authentically.
00:37:31.020
I think you made a really good point a little bit earlier where you talked about the fact that we listen to certain people a bit too much.
00:37:36.920
And the way I think about it is, like, in every pub in England, there's always been, like, a Gary the Wanker in the corner, right, that would say stupid shit and everybody would know that's Gary the Wanker.
00:37:49.300
And now you've got, like, 400,000 Gary the Wankers who've been assembled in one place, all talking to each other, reinforcing each other's beliefs.
00:37:57.400
And suddenly you're hearing all this stuff that just doesn't seem to me to make any sense.
00:38:03.860
The issue is there are people listening to this stuff, and it's changing how people think.
00:38:12.380
And I don't know what you really do about it other than try to offer this group of people some hope and something better.
00:38:18.820
I think that's why Jordan Peterson became the worldwide phenomenon that he is, is because he's trying to speak to these people.
00:38:24.960
It's hard, because if you feel hopeless, and you don't have connection, and you don't see a future, and then someone is pointing out one thing or one group of the population and saying they're the reason you don't have it, how dangerous and effective is that?
00:38:39.800
Like, we see it, and we've seen it throughout history.
00:38:42.080
So if you're always blaming the same thing or the same gender, like, maybe it's a you thing, because the whole thing is women are supposed to be picky, right?
00:38:51.280
And if they are bringing things out in you and they're showing you your insufficiencies or your deficits or they're challenging you to rise up, don't get mad.
00:39:00.620
Like, what a beautiful gift that the feminine can give the masculine is showing you where you're not showing up, because what we see in you is all of this potential.
00:39:08.620
And maybe sometimes that harshness is the thing that some men need in order to, like, re-evaluate and say, no, she's right.
00:39:17.180
And I think it's simply a mindset change and a reframe.
00:39:20.240
So instead of saying, all these women are rejecting you, like, ask why.
00:39:24.320
And then what can I do to be a better man that is worthy of love and affection from a woman?
00:39:30.300
And actually, that is historically how men have been encouraged to think about these things.
00:39:35.540
Like, you're supposed to be better and then everything else happens, right?
00:39:41.140
Going online without ExpressVPN is like forgetting to mute yourself on a Zoom meeting.
00:39:46.200
Do you really want your co-workers to hear you trash-talking them?
00:39:51.560
ExpressVPN reroutes all your internet traffic through secure encrypted servers.
00:39:56.760
So no one, not your ISP, mobile network, or Wi-Fi admin, can track your browsing history.
00:40:03.180
It also hides your IP address, making it nearly impossible for anyone to trace your online activity.
00:40:11.440
Just fire up the app, click one button, and you're protected on all your devices.
00:40:16.560
At Trigonometry, online security is a big deal for us.
00:40:20.060
As you can imagine, since 2019, we've relied on ExpressVPN to keep our online research and communication secure.
00:40:27.960
Right now, our listeners can get an exclusive deal, four extra months free,
00:40:33.140
when you sign up for a 12-month plan at expressvpn.com slash trigger.
00:40:39.480
That's expressvpn.com slash trigger for four months, absolutely free.
00:40:45.860
Changing tacks slightly, one of the things we were just talking about the other night is
00:40:51.680
just how much power a beautiful woman has in the world.
00:40:56.160
And it's interesting because we do live in a world where it's like we've got this weird form of feminism
00:41:00.840
where women are like really powerful, but also the victim of everything.
00:41:06.200
Because I imagine you know that you have a lot of power over some men, at least, right?
00:41:13.000
I don't know because I don't fall into that victim trap.
00:41:20.280
I think it maybe goes to the damsel in distress archetype.
00:41:22.880
And some women find power in that and they feel that someone's going to swoop in
00:41:26.420
and try to help them and claim them in some kind of way.
00:41:32.780
But there's that one quote where that beauty is a short tyranny or something like that.
00:41:38.980
But we were talking about it a little bit earlier.
00:41:40.740
And yes, it can be used for you or against you.
00:41:44.160
So I'm going to choose used for me because no matter what, it's there.
00:41:47.200
So it's like if someone gave you this beautiful gift and this tool and you're like,
00:41:50.780
you have this for maybe like 40 years, 30, something like that.
00:42:01.820
Like, you know, I sometimes see comedians complaining because there's a good looking
00:42:06.740
They're like, oh, he's only, you know, he's only dressing like that because he looks like
00:42:10.980
I'm like, dude, if you had the discipline, the hard work and the genetics to look like
00:42:21.240
And I've met some female comics that tried to dumb themselves down because they say that
00:42:25.000
they want their comedy to be the only thing people are looking at.
00:42:27.900
And yes, that's admirable, but no one else is playing by those rules.
00:42:31.360
And I'm not saying go out there in lingerie, like if you want to, go for it.
00:42:36.100
But it doesn't make sense to downplay who you are or what you look like because you
00:42:41.720
feel that that's going to take away from your skill.
00:42:46.420
And the people that say it's a cop out or say she's only there because of her looks
00:42:51.380
or he's only there for their looks, well, they're saying that because they're not
00:42:54.220
Do you think that's true that you can be, see, you can be beautiful and talented, but
00:42:59.600
I think what people are onto, and this is like a super controversial thing to say that
00:43:09.160
I may be corrected by the internet, but with a guy, it's like when a guy sees a beautiful
00:43:14.160
woman, it is very difficult, at least initially for him to see beyond that.
00:43:28.700
This is one of the reasons I think it is probably extremely difficult for a female politician
00:43:41.020
Because it's like, it's not that you can't respect someone who's attractive, you can,
00:43:46.140
but it's just kind of hard to get there, you know what I mean?
00:43:51.880
I'm so getting, this is actually something I can get cancelled for, even though it's
00:43:57.800
So do you think that there's a gradient though, so can you be a 7 or an 8 and it's faster to
00:44:04.220
And then there's also the halo effect, so the halo effect applies to men and women, and
00:44:07.840
it's if you're perceived as generally good looking, that people are nicer, you make more
00:44:14.920
Right, your life is kind of better than other people's.
00:44:27.400
So my father, for example, when he was in his early 30s, he became wealthy overnight,
00:44:35.940
And I remember him telling me how actually unpleasant he found that women would now look
00:44:44.200
Because it's kind of like, oh, so that's what they want from me, right?
00:44:47.880
And I imagine the same if you're an attractive woman.
00:44:50.520
Like, there's some massive benefits to it, but you also get some attention that you probably
00:44:56.480
There's a ton of costs because the way that you go throughout the world, you have to kind
00:45:00.860
of be a little bit more guarded and shielded because most of the time it does have an effect
00:45:07.100
And then you have to ask, am I here because I earned this or am I here because he's trying
00:45:13.020
And a lot of times it's the latter and then that sucks.
00:45:16.340
And then as the woman, you're asking yourself, how do I navigate this?
00:45:19.720
Because I still want this job or this opportunity.
00:45:24.340
And you don't want to, again, dismiss him or turn him down because then you're not going
00:45:28.680
So it's this really delicate dance of how do you exist, use this superpower in a way
00:45:39.160
And by the way, with guys, I know, again, from speaking to guys about this, there's also
00:45:42.840
a thing where it's like a guy might not want to sleep with you, but it's going to sound
00:45:50.180
so terrible, but it's nicer to have an attractive woman around than some other mutant hairy guy.
00:45:57.280
It's such a terrible thing in the modern world to say, but I think it's true.
00:46:05.240
So this goes into, he writes a lot about polarity and how the masculine and feminine work together.
00:46:11.400
And he specifically talks about the relationship of an attractive woman or one that is perceived
00:46:17.040
as attractive by a man in her proximity to him.
00:46:20.560
So what an aligned, mature masculine will do is instead of just like oogling this woman
00:46:27.280
and just seeing her as something to kind of like use as a whole, he takes that life force,
00:46:32.960
that creative energy, and he like sends it upwards in a way and uses it for creativity.
00:46:36.940
He uses it for drive and he uses it for appreciation.
00:46:39.880
So it's like almost like this gift that she's giving him and he's like, oh, thank you.
00:46:45.800
And that's such a good point because you can find a woman beautiful and be respectful
00:46:50.500
and have an enjoyable conversation or interaction.
00:46:54.520
You don't have to go to the other extreme, which you see some men doing, you know, because
00:47:01.660
And actually it makes the sometimes tedious humdrum of life that bit more enjoyable.
00:47:10.700
I think flirting is absolutely a love language.
00:47:12.440
But I think that comes down to compulsion and just self-control, which a lot of people
00:47:17.500
So it's not being able to see the woman as this muse, essentially, which women have always
00:47:22.240
been to men, like the thing that inspires them.
00:47:27.260
But they're like, no, I actually have to capture this and make it mine, which is more of an immature
00:47:34.020
I'm absolutely shocked that it hasn't gone super viral on the internet now that I have said
00:47:39.540
Because what I'm trying to say is men are really dumb.
00:47:42.440
There is a bit in our conversation with Ayla, when we ask her, how do you become, I don't
00:47:49.200
remember the exact question, but something like, how do you become seductive to a man
00:47:52.940
And it's really interesting because lots of people find Ayla attractive and great, personally,
00:47:59.660
And I don't say this with any condescension whatsoever.
00:48:02.560
But both me and Frances, the moment she started demonstrating it, we were like, oh, hello.
00:48:08.240
The lizard part of my brain was, right, come on, boys, we're getting ready.
00:48:15.860
And it was actually kind of humiliating the way she said it, because she was like, basically,
00:48:21.360
And it was really like, men are really fucking dumb.
00:48:28.660
You sink into, and we're just there going, tick, tick, tick.
00:48:31.900
It was just like, it's all working automatically.
00:48:34.040
So what I mean is, like, that's why I mentioned the power thing.
00:48:37.220
It just feels to me like the disempowering conversation that we've got to, I don't know,
00:48:44.040
it's really difficult to negotiate all of this because I just see a lot of bullshit being
00:48:48.540
like, people go, oh, you're objectifying women.
00:48:51.020
Well, when you dig down to the very bottom of it, what they mean is you find a woman
00:48:58.180
And it's like, that's what men's brains evolved for.
00:49:01.780
Like, we're not, there's no way to shut that down.
00:49:05.060
So when I hear objectification, I don't think finding someone attractive or checking them
00:49:14.540
When I think that, I think it's being dismissive of the whole person and only putting them in one
00:49:19.720
So whether it's because they are online showing themselves or whether because they're just
00:49:24.200
an attractive person and then that's the attention that they're garnering, it's that
00:49:28.000
that's the only thing that they're allowed to be.
00:49:29.980
And then if they try to come out of that, they get, like, they lose respect or you treat
00:49:37.340
So I think that you can find someone sexually appealing and again, you can check them out.
00:49:42.260
I don't think that there's anything wrong with that.
00:49:45.660
It would take probably 20 years of Zen Buddhism for that not to be.
00:49:49.620
Nah, Zen Buddhism is still on the internet watching porn every Sunday.
00:49:54.160
I think it'd be really hard for you to get rid of that behavior entirely.
00:49:57.300
But to me, when you talk about that, it's more just dehumanizing the person.
00:50:02.640
So let's say I see an attractive woman walking down the street and I go, oh, hello.
00:50:12.780
So I think it's more, like, predatorial than that.
00:50:16.740
Like, I think it's when someone maybe is expressing some kind of sexual violence in a way.
00:50:24.920
I'm on the fence about it because I think context is really important.
00:50:28.020
If it's the middle of the day and there's a bunch of people out, no, I'm not going to feel threatened.
00:50:31.640
If it's at night and it's only me and you and you're doing that, that is so inappropriate.
00:50:35.180
And that to me is kind of that's going into sexual violence territory.
00:50:41.460
I think when it comes to objectification, I'm not expecting you to ask her name, her sign, her family history.
00:50:48.820
But I think it would be anything that was more inappropriate or dehumanizing.
00:50:52.860
So if you're talking to someone at a restaurant or at a bar and like, I don't know, you're kind of being like you're just being a dick.
00:51:00.280
And we all know that guy, you know what I mean?
00:51:02.680
Where he's just like, you are a thing to be used versus that woman's really beautiful or she's really hot or whatever that narrative is.
00:51:10.040
So you talk about something very interesting, which is all day foreplay.
00:51:15.120
So it goes back to the responsive desire versus spontaneous.
00:51:19.060
So I'm sure you guys can walk in the kitchen and you see your lady and you're like, yes, right?
00:51:23.980
It's like she's wearing sweatpants and you're just immediately ready to go.
00:51:32.340
No, but sweatpants, there's something about sweatpants.
00:51:34.820
I think it's vulnerability, like safety, comfort, right?
00:51:42.780
Look, I'm judging you, but I'm not judging you.
00:52:08.320
So guys can be spontaneous, and they don't really need a lot of revving up, and they can
00:52:13.400
You guys also tend to have less sensitive breaks, so there's a lot less things that will
00:52:19.060
Women, a lot of us, have very sensitive breaks, like the bird starts tripping.
00:52:32.700
So you have to think about threat detection, right?
00:52:37.200
We have a much wider focus, because we are more likely to get eaten.
00:52:42.860
It is just wired in us to constantly be doing these things.
00:52:45.700
You guys are hunters, so you have direct focus.
00:52:49.440
Maybe not you and I so much, but you can focus on one thing, and it's very hard to distract
00:53:00.560
Otherwise, that could be confusing in a very interesting way, and you don't want to.
00:53:12.240
But so women, in order to feel safe, it's all of these little touch points throughout the
00:53:16.580
So what you think is her nagging, that sock on the floor, you not taking out the trash.
00:53:20.980
If you said you were going to go get milk and you didn't, well, these in the modern
00:53:24.200
era are versions of you not being reliable and not being a safe partner.
00:53:28.140
So if you're not doing this element of safety is out of the door, right?
00:53:32.720
It's going to be impossible for her to relax and be present with you, which is required for
00:53:39.960
She wants to know that you're connected and that you're invested throughout the day.
00:53:42.800
So it's little grazes, little kisses, little like eye gazes.
00:53:46.120
How many times can you walk by your partner and not even look at or acknowledge them,
00:53:50.540
So it's if she talks, you respond, you know, just ignore her.
00:53:53.620
All of these little things now kind of equate safety and modern era.
00:53:57.660
So you want to make sure that you're spending like the two seconds it takes to just like,
00:54:05.080
And you will be so grateful you did it because she will be relaxed and more receptive.
00:54:09.140
So when the kids are in bed or everything is done and you're winding down, like she's
00:54:13.200
in this place where she wants to engage with you.
00:54:15.820
And there's something that I want to talk about, which is because we're talking about that and
00:54:21.340
And then there's this, there's this thing called the friend zone and you can, there's
00:54:27.040
this, you get lots of content now about people, men being too nice in particular.
00:54:35.400
I think that's a secret sauce that no one knows.
00:54:37.920
Like, why do you fall in love with the people that you do?
00:54:39.980
Why are you attracted to the person that you are?
00:54:48.380
I don't think anyone's ever come back from the ick.
00:54:52.560
So how do you, how do you give a woman the ick?
00:55:12.020
It could be the way that your fingernails are clipped.
00:55:16.940
It could be the way that you bend down to pick up something.
00:55:21.140
Candice, you know I'm going to say something that's going to sound unfair, but that's not right.
00:55:31.300
And like I said, I really appreciate how brave you guys are.
00:55:34.160
Well, yeah, but if I hold, well, I held the mug the wrong way and now a woman's got the ick.
00:55:42.180
A woman once told me, like, she goes, you're perfect.
00:55:57.420
I just fold it like that so I've got it and then I eat it like that so the cheese doesn't drip.
00:56:16.480
Well, I think in a weird way, maybe it's your body just saying that that's not the right person.
00:56:20.980
And then when they do the attraction experiments, they had the women smell the t-shirts that the guy was wearing for three days.
00:56:27.560
So they would smell which one and then they would rate attraction based off of that.
00:56:31.400
And what they found is that the women that were picking certain t-shirts, it was actually the most genetic differences.
00:56:37.080
So that is to create like viable offspring that are more resistant to any kind of illness or plague and viruses, etc.
00:56:46.100
So maybe part of that is clicking into your olfactory system and maybe it's actually pheromones that just you get a waft of and then he's doing a thing.
00:56:54.180
So instead of you realizing it's really pheromones, it's like, no, he ate his pizza weird.
00:57:00.140
But there's also the other element of it, which is like, and I've had female friends say this to me.
00:57:06.320
She was like, yeah, I knew he wasn't the one that I wanted to go out with.
00:57:10.260
She went, he saw a spider and he let out a little scream.
00:57:13.540
Well, yes, I would agree with that all day because that goes back to masculinity and polarity.
00:57:24.000
So when it comes to killing the bug, that is the masculine.
00:57:38.100
So coming back to the friend zone, do you think, see, this is the conversation that I'm actually really glad we're having this chat, even though it doesn't really apply to me.
00:57:46.080
But it's still very interesting, theoretically, because the conversation about the friend zone from a male perspective, there is a dimension to it, which is like a woman wants a bit of danger and unpredict.
00:57:59.020
She wants her man to kind of be like a little bit hard to read and for there to be a little bit of like unpredictability to him and like he's not going to bow down to my wishes.
00:58:14.640
Whereas the advice a lot of men get, oh, just be nice, just be nice.
00:58:18.520
And then when a lot of guys do that, they then find themselves in a position when they feel that maybe what they're not is they're not sufficiently interesting and not sufficiently unpredictable, not sufficiently, even sometimes, some might say not sufficiently dangerous to be attractive to a woman.
00:58:34.500
Well, I think women want a man that has purpose.
00:58:37.720
And I don't think any woman wants that purpose to be her.
00:58:40.600
So if that if that is the center of his world and he's bending over backwards or she's like, oh, babe, don't work on your project tonight or can't you just call out or right?
00:58:58.900
So we want a man that has a purpose that's outside of us.
00:59:03.140
And still to show us love and affection and still give us time.
00:59:05.960
It's not to say don't give us any of those things, but there has to be something bigger.
00:59:09.540
So I think if you do have a man that is a yes man, he's so agreeable.
00:59:12.960
And again, it's almost love bombing in a sense that she's like, he doesn't have a purpose.
00:59:19.620
And also let's talk about testing, because apparently this is a thing.
00:59:25.720
Well, there's healthy versions and then there's toxic versions.
00:59:28.280
I think, again, that's the role of the females is to test the man.
00:59:31.580
It is to demand a higher performance of you in every single way.
00:59:36.880
So it's you can't test the strength of a of a pillar or a cliff unless you have a wave
00:59:44.620
So every time it's can you handle the fullness of the feminine?
00:59:48.960
I want to see how you're going to show up in those conditions.
00:59:54.560
And it's something that you have to say thank you and look at it with love and gratitude.
00:59:57.940
And again, a call to action and a call to being a higher elevated man.
01:00:02.360
But if you have someone that's over testing or I saw this one woman, she she pretended
01:00:08.060
she passed out in the shower, out cold, laying there and hit her camera.
01:00:24.200
That woman needs an unhealthy amount of attention.
01:00:28.860
I think that you'll be able to know if you check in, is she testing me because she loves
01:00:34.100
Or is she testing me because she's insecure and she wants to make sure I'm not going to
01:00:37.800
Or is she testing you because that's just what women do?
01:00:46.020
I mean, you have to use indirect ways of finding out certain information, right?
01:00:57.860
What's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be?
01:01:01.780
Before Candice answers the final question at the end of the interview, make sure you
01:01:05.480
click the link in the description, head to our sub stack to see this.
01:01:09.640
The way that Europeans have sex is very different than American men.
01:01:15.320
What's the best chat up line you've ever heard?
01:01:24.120
And what do I want my relationship to pleasure to be?
01:01:28.580
I think the first step is removing shame and the second step is getting down to first principles
01:01:33.660
and deciding what you want that to look like and not living your life based off of the fear
01:01:43.180
Like to live your life authentically for yourself through agency, finding that passion, that play.
01:01:49.240
Because pleasure isn't inherently sexual, right?
01:01:55.160
And it is uncoupling the shame or the guilt or that you have to work to earn that.
01:02:01.160
You were born into this world with love and light and joy and pleasure.
01:02:05.740
And then that slowly kind of gets chipped away to where I have to earn my peace or I have to earn my play.
01:02:14.200
Head on over to Substack where we ask Candice your questions.
01:02:17.620
We recently reached a huge YouTube milestone with a million subscribers.
01:02:22.220
Amid the celebrations, however, there have been a few cynical voices too.
01:02:26.140
Some people are asking, how do two guys with weird hair and no obvious talent
01:02:31.500
manage to create some of the most sensible, balanced, nonpartisan conversations on the internet?
01:02:39.520
Some people have even gone as far as to ask, who funds you?
01:02:48.120
For the last six years, we've only been able to produce the show because of financial support
01:02:53.060
from some nefarious, problematic people of highly questionable moral integrity.
01:03:00.700
That's why the show no longer looks like a Beatles tribute act doing a seance.
01:03:15.740
We're excited to announce that we will be moving our locals community,
01:03:19.120
including all bonus content, to our new home at Substack.
01:03:22.900
If you're already a supporter, your subscription will be moved over automatically.
01:03:27.900
As for the rest of you, this is your chance to step up and join us as we go to the next level.
01:03:37.260
What he's trying to say is that the show will only keep getting bigger and better with your help.
01:03:42.280
You already know about the bonus content we have for supporters.
01:03:45.380
For just seven bucks a month, all 70 bucks a year, you get ad-free extended interviews
01:03:51.740
with a chance to ask our incredible guests your questions.
01:03:56.340
But with Substack, you're going to get a lot more.
01:03:59.720
Insightful articles on upcoming guests, a weekly newsletter,
01:04:03.480
the ability to chat with each other on the app, both privately and in threads.
01:04:08.140
You'll also be able to connect your podcast listening app like Spotify or Apple Music
01:04:13.800
and enjoy the extended ad-free interviews on the go.
01:04:17.880
Your support will mean that we will be able to do more incredible U.S. and other overseas trips
01:04:25.280
That means more phenomenal extra content for you
01:04:27.680
as we get the best minds in the world to talk about the issues that truly matter.
01:04:33.040
No bullshit, no fudging, just an honest conversation with a fascinating person.
01:04:40.600
You're not going to get one, but at least you'll be able to afford one.
01:04:43.920
Click the link and join 40,000 people like you to make the show you love better again.
01:04:52.700
How much of the body count discussion do you think is driven by men's fears
01:04:56.480
that a woman with many sexual partners in her past is more likely to cheat?
01:05:07.480
Boom and Alpine Credits bring you payroll payout.
01:05:25.640
Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto.
01:05:34.200
The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more,
01:05:37.700
featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.
01:05:43.440
Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here,
01:05:50.180
April 28th through June 7th, 2026, the Princess of Wales Theatre.