TRIGGERnometry - Posie Parker： Trans Women Aren't Women

00:00:00.320 Hey guys, as some of you know, we have just terminated our advertising contract with Surfshark.

00:00:06.160 Yes, we were made aware that they stopped advertising with the Post Millennial

00:00:09.780 because of some false allegations about their editor and our former guest, Andy Ngo.

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00:00:24.040 One of the problems with cancel culture is that if we rely on a small number of advertisers

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00:00:45.760 not interviewing certain people because we're afraid of the consequences

00:00:48.920 and we'll end up shying away from the really important conversations

00:00:52.400 about difficult subjects that we have here.

00:00:54.520 So we started Trigonometry three and a half years ago with no help from anyone,

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00:01:53.320 and we'll take you out for a meal, which is always my favourite part.

00:01:56.960 Do you feel vindicated?

00:01:59.600 I feel like a prophet.

00:02:08.060 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:02:10.900 I'm Francis Foster.

00:02:12.260 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:02:13.360 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:02:18.360 I think it might be pretty fascinating and honest today because we have a returning guest.

00:02:23.500 It's Kelly J. Keene, formerly known as Posey Parker,

00:02:25.940 who holds the record for the most number of views of any of our previous interviews.

00:02:29.920 She's very happy about it.

00:02:31.040 Kelly, welcome back.

00:02:32.120 Thanks very much.

00:02:33.300 Well, I mentioned our previous interview.

00:02:35.900 You're obviously a women's rights campaigner.

00:02:37.360 And the first time we had you on, we were talking about the trans issue.

00:02:41.460 This would have been at least two years ago.

00:02:44.260 And just to set the context for everybody, and you won't know this,

00:02:46.920 but I do remember when you walked out,

00:02:49.320 the interview is titled Trans Women Aren't Women.

00:02:53.240 When you walked out, Francis and I looked at each other and went,

00:02:55.940 okay, and then we sort of, we had to put our testicles back on

00:03:02.000 to actually put the interview out.

00:03:03.740 Because at the time, for two comedians who were still operating in the comedy industry,

00:03:08.820 very progressive, we were recording it above a comedy club

00:03:12.660 where we were sort of operating on the goodwill of the people there.

00:03:16.120 That was terrifying.

00:03:17.600 It was borderline suicidal.

00:03:19.340 Yeah.

00:03:19.720 That conversation was absolutely terrifying.

00:03:22.400 And I think, I want to get your take on it,

00:03:24.620 but I think that one of the reasons it has done as well as it has

00:03:27.440 is it's two people who are genuinely trying to investigate the issue.

00:03:31.400 They're possibly putting forward arguments,

00:03:33.580 some of which are well thought out and some less so perhaps,

00:03:36.320 just pure ignorance.

00:03:38.600 And someone is pushing back with facts, with arguments, with logic,

00:03:42.460 without being upset, without getting angry.

00:03:44.580 There's a bit of humor involved.

00:03:45.840 Everybody has a good time.

00:03:46.960 That sort of was the vibe of it.

00:03:48.700 What was, first of all, your feeling when you walked out of that conversation?

00:03:54.620 Um, I thought it was good.

00:03:56.900 I quite like the opportunity to answer an argument and have a debate.

00:04:03.140 It's quite, it's not as productive for anybody, I don't think.

00:04:06.600 If everyone goes, oh yeah, I agree, yeah, I agree.

00:04:08.680 Oh, we all agree.

00:04:09.420 Isn't that great?

00:04:10.080 And it's much more entertaining for everybody else, isn't it?

00:04:13.660 But I think in order to really present a good argument,

00:04:18.680 you need somebody that doesn't necessarily agree with you.

00:04:22.820 And so I absolutely loved it.

00:04:24.580 Yeah, it was great, wasn't it?

00:04:26.160 And, you know, one of the reasons that we wanted to get you back now,

00:04:29.540 because we've covered the trans issue, we feel like, to death.

00:04:32.440 And I think most of our audience, and us included,

00:04:35.620 now kind of know where we stand on it.

00:04:37.700 And that's partly, let's be honest, thanks to you,

00:04:39.840 because you did open our eyes to a lot of stuff.

00:04:42.220 And one of the things that you were saying at the time,

00:04:44.760 I'm not sure how persuaded we were by it at that time,

00:04:47.960 was the slippery slope fallacy isn't always a fallacy.

00:04:51.740 And if you allow certain things to happen,

00:04:54.040 well, guess what?

00:04:55.100 Two years later, you might have a party conference

00:04:57.360 of a major political party in this country,

00:04:59.440 where, you know, Ed Davey, the leader of the Lib Dems,

00:05:02.560 Keir Starmer, the leader of the Labour Party.

00:05:05.380 Now, essentially, they don't...

00:05:07.940 Today, Keir Starmer is saying we need a James Bond to be a woman.

00:05:12.040 But two days earlier, he couldn't even define what a woman was.

00:05:15.440 That's where we are.

00:05:16.920 So do you feel vindicated?

00:05:20.200 I feel like a prophet.

00:05:23.380 Yeah, I do.

00:05:24.660 I did know that if you can't name what a woman is,

00:05:29.040 you can't really say anything about us,

00:05:31.960 you can't defend our rights,

00:05:33.760 you can't defend our spaces,

00:05:35.620 a female space is no longer a female space

00:05:37.860 if there's a man in it.

00:05:39.540 So I knew this was coming.

00:05:42.440 I kind of hoped it wasn't.

00:05:44.680 But I think the writings on the wall

00:05:47.560 from everybody I know

00:05:49.540 who's got anything to do with the Labour Party,

00:05:52.020 and let's not forget that the Tories are in charge

00:05:54.060 and they're not doing very great things either.

00:05:56.480 The Liberal Democrats are...

00:05:58.960 I mean, if it wasn't such a serious issue,

00:06:02.680 it's hilarious.

00:06:03.980 I mean, they're just proper way out there.

00:06:07.600 Way out there.

00:06:08.240 And have we come to this point?

00:06:10.060 How have we come to the point

00:06:11.420 where on a major political show,

00:06:14.320 Keir Starmer,

00:06:15.440 when asked what a woman is

00:06:17.020 and do women have cervixes,

00:06:19.200 essentially failed a year five biology question?

00:06:23.120 I don't know.

00:06:25.800 There must be such a powerful minority

00:06:29.800 in the Labour Party

00:06:30.920 that he just can't speak

00:06:32.680 because it's too ridiculous

00:06:35.200 to think that there's any rational

00:06:37.220 kind of lead up to that.

00:06:39.760 Emily Thornberry,

00:06:40.860 she was asked the same question

00:06:42.380 and she said that her nephew is trans

00:06:45.140 and he has a cervix.

00:06:47.100 Now, I don't agree with her at all.

00:06:48.800 I think that's a ridiculous thing to say.

00:06:50.600 But at least there is...

00:06:52.620 You can understand if you've got a niece,

00:06:55.560 I would say a niece,

00:06:56.780 who identifies as trans

00:06:58.520 and you might not want to really offend her.

00:07:01.920 So that's a little bit more understandable.

00:07:04.440 But David Lammy thinks that trans women,

00:07:08.140 men, also have a cervix,

00:07:10.500 that when you have SRS,

00:07:12.580 you end up with a cervix.

00:07:15.480 I mean, it's like...

00:07:17.600 All I can think when I see David Lammy

00:07:19.500 is him saying there are no police here

00:07:20.960 with a police officer behind him.

00:07:24.780 It feels like neighbourhood policing has vanished.

00:07:28.220 It's not around you.

00:07:30.140 We haven't seen a police while I've been here

00:07:32.020 and I've been here for a little while now.

00:07:36.240 That's just barmy.

00:07:38.180 And it must be these very, very powerful activists.

00:07:42.280 But surely they can't have that power

00:07:44.200 or do you think they're just worried

00:07:45.460 about being cancelled, smeared, etc, etc?

00:07:48.980 Well, I think they must have power.

00:07:50.640 I think power is the only thing

00:07:52.200 that could persuade normal, rational humans

00:07:56.600 to say such ridiculous things.

00:07:59.820 It can only be power

00:08:02.220 to force people into newspeak.

00:08:06.080 Like, I don't...

00:08:08.020 It's not rational, is it?

00:08:09.280 There's no truth.

00:08:10.380 It's not factual.

00:08:11.940 So it can only be sort of levers of power.

00:08:15.240 Well, it's become a bit of a purity test.

00:08:17.860 And the first time we were having that conversation,

00:08:20.560 I think the sort of tension that was in the air

00:08:23.520 was because we are two people

00:08:25.440 who are genuinely intellectually curious

00:08:27.280 and try to be honest.

00:08:29.260 But also that pressure from the industry

00:08:31.920 we were operating within at that point of time

00:08:34.660 was coming into conflict.

00:08:36.600 And I think a lot of people find themselves

00:08:38.220 in that position,

00:08:39.740 including in the Labour Party,

00:08:41.060 where on the one hand,

00:08:42.060 you do want to be honest

00:08:43.000 and also you want to be compassionate.

00:08:45.200 That was the other thing

00:08:45.960 that was certainly motivating me

00:08:47.120 and it motivates me to this day.

00:08:48.280 I don't want to upset people

00:08:49.840 who do not have an easy life.

00:08:51.980 They don't, right?

00:08:53.140 For the sake of some kind of argument.

00:08:55.320 But at the same time,

00:08:56.120 I think we're seeing now

00:08:57.820 that when people pretend

00:09:00.280 to not know the things that they know,

00:09:02.380 it has consequences in every area,

00:09:04.360 whether that's, you know,

00:09:05.560 there's a new transgender fighter in MMA

00:09:08.520 who's choking people out,

00:09:10.040 whether that's Laurel Hubbard

00:09:11.600 competing and taking the place as a woman,

00:09:13.900 or whether that's detransitioners

00:09:16.140 now coming through.

00:09:16.920 You're seeing lots of young people

00:09:18.200 who are saying,

00:09:18.900 I was basically let down the garden path

00:09:21.040 and now I've chopped bits of my body off

00:09:22.720 without necessarily being fully present

00:09:26.680 to what I was doing.

00:09:27.540 There's consequences to this.

00:09:29.440 There are massive consequences.

00:09:31.060 I sat in the second day

00:09:32.400 of the Keira Bell appeal

00:09:34.540 when the Tavistock said,

00:09:36.500 no, but we do want to give kids

00:09:38.440 puberty blockers,

00:09:39.760 which was a peculiar thing

00:09:41.640 to sit there thinking,

00:09:43.000 me, the taxpayer,

00:09:44.680 funding the Tavistock

00:09:46.340 to insist upon

00:09:47.880 actually giving kids puberty blockers.

00:09:50.500 And one of their barristers

00:09:51.720 was talking about

00:09:52.540 the autonomy of 10-year-olds

00:09:55.080 and the agency of a 10-year-old

00:09:57.700 to make that decision.

00:10:00.020 Sitting there and Keira Bell's in front

00:10:02.240 and she's brought this whole case

00:10:04.260 and even though she did lose

00:10:06.000 that particular bit of the whole ordeal for her,

00:10:10.780 she's opened conversations globally.

00:10:13.160 So whatever happened in that courtroom,

00:10:16.280 she totally won

00:10:17.340 and it was incredible.

00:10:19.460 But to listen to,

00:10:21.180 and I watched the three judges

00:10:22.320 and one of them was like the chief justice.

00:10:27.520 There was another master of the robes

00:10:28.880 and there was another one,

00:10:30.360 the female,

00:10:30.920 who I can't remember what her role was.

00:10:33.320 But she was jolly good.

00:10:35.340 She looked good.

00:10:37.800 Yeah, she looked great.

00:10:40.560 And so there's three of them

00:10:42.340 and at no point,

00:10:44.140 I was expecting at least a flicker of something

00:10:46.840 and an inquiry into,

00:10:49.820 really, these are children.

00:10:51.640 How far is this going to go?

00:10:53.300 And nobody was asking those questions.

00:10:55.780 It was insane.

00:10:57.660 So in answer to your question,

00:11:01.180 I can't remember what the question was.

00:11:02.820 Well, I think it was less of a question.

00:11:04.600 I actually do want to ask you this

00:11:07.660 because we talk about the slippery slope

00:11:10.480 not necessarily being a fallacy.

00:11:12.400 We've seen that with the trans issue.

00:11:13.980 We've seen that with COVID restrictions.

00:11:16.020 You know, people who were saying things a year ago

00:11:18.500 were called conspiracy theorists.

00:11:20.100 Now those very things are happening.

00:11:23.260 What do you think is coming,

00:11:25.020 given what you're seeing?

00:11:26.240 Because you mentioned Labour Party, Lib Dems,

00:11:28.360 but also the Tories

00:11:29.120 not really doing very much on this issue.

00:11:31.260 Where is this going?

00:11:32.100 Well, the Tories have got a few people,

00:11:36.080 I think, who could really turn the tide.

00:11:38.940 It just depends how much of a grip

00:11:41.300 Carrie Simmons has on Boris's...

00:11:45.100 Yes.

00:11:47.600 ...career.

00:11:50.200 It's not a euphemism.

00:11:52.340 So it just depends how much of a grip

00:11:54.740 the woke have got on the Conservatives.

00:11:57.380 But where is it going?

00:11:59.040 Well, they've just mandated this sort of consent

00:12:01.620 for 12-year-olds with vaccines.

00:12:03.740 So I think it could go to some really,

00:12:08.440 really dark places.

00:12:09.920 I think there's so many little things

00:12:12.180 that have happened, right,

00:12:13.000 to do with parents and children.

00:12:15.000 And I'm a mother of four.

00:12:18.380 And the little things, like,

00:12:20.280 we're not allowed to know

00:12:21.660 what they're doing in sex ed,

00:12:23.540 or you're not allowed to take them out

00:12:24.760 of the bullying lessons,

00:12:27.160 which often include things

00:12:28.380 that I don't necessarily would...

00:12:30.220 You know, I wouldn't have wanted

00:12:31.100 my seven-year-old to be talking about.

00:12:33.780 So there's severance there.

00:12:35.160 There's severance in the relationship

00:12:36.920 between parents and children

00:12:38.120 when it comes to consent for vaccines.

00:12:40.920 In Scotland, the NHS has sent 51 girls,

00:12:46.840 I think, to...

00:12:49.180 They called it something euphemistic,

00:12:51.660 but basically having their breasts removed

00:12:54.080 under 18, 51 girls.

00:12:56.960 So I don't know.

00:12:59.480 Is it an attack on reality?

00:13:01.380 Is it a severance of family?

00:13:03.300 Are all the people who've been saying

00:13:05.400 that there's some sort of crazy Marxist takeover

00:13:08.000 happening,

00:13:09.540 are they a little bit right?

00:13:13.320 Yes.

00:13:14.660 The thing...

00:13:16.320 There's several things about this issue

00:13:18.080 that I find disturbing,

00:13:19.660 particularly the use of language.

00:13:21.660 Someone very, very, very close to me

00:13:23.440 is looking at how,

00:13:24.480 for medical reasons,

00:13:25.360 having to go through a double mastectomy.

00:13:27.640 And reading up about it,

00:13:29.520 and we've sat down together,

00:13:31.240 and you're looking at the medical literature.

00:13:33.400 This is a very, very problematic,

00:13:37.580 invasive procedure.

00:13:40.300 And then when you hear other people talk about it,

00:13:42.660 these activists,

00:13:43.380 they go,

00:13:43.640 oh, it's just top surgery.

00:13:44.700 And you think,

00:13:45.040 no, it's not top surgery.

00:13:47.060 This is a major medical procedure.

00:13:50.700 Why are we using these frivolous terms?

00:13:54.580 Well, there's loads of frivolous terms out there.

00:13:56.960 Sex worker for prostitution.

00:13:58.420 We get away from the harrowing ordeal

00:14:01.020 of being like a street prostitute

00:14:03.640 if we call them sex workers.

00:14:05.800 And I think it's the same with top surgery.

00:14:08.020 The other thing's called bottom surgery.

00:14:10.740 Then there's...

00:14:12.420 I don't really know what...

00:14:15.280 There's getting breasts.

00:14:16.460 But yeah,

00:14:18.960 this need to disguise what's going on.

00:14:22.700 Like, there's non-binary surgeries now.

00:14:25.320 So a non-binary surgery might mean

00:14:27.320 that you have your testicles inverted

00:14:30.520 to create a cavity,

00:14:32.720 but you would keep your penis.

00:14:35.900 Girls who call themselves non-binary,

00:14:38.160 because there is just an insane war on breasts,

00:14:40.780 and I don't really know what this is about,

00:14:42.420 but you'll have a scar from there to there,

00:14:45.700 and you have your nipples removed,

00:14:47.900 and you just...

00:14:48.740 And there's also...

00:14:49.920 I think somebody called it mermaid surgery,

00:14:51.680 where you have quite a lot of things smoothed out,

00:14:55.680 like your genitals smoothed out,

00:14:57.100 and you just end up with a urethra.

00:14:59.700 So there's...

00:15:01.400 It's so gross

00:15:04.580 that if you talk to somebody

00:15:05.800 who knows nothing about it,

00:15:07.620 they will not believe a word you say,

00:15:09.540 because it's so insane.

00:15:12.240 And it's insane,

00:15:14.080 and we seem to be sacrificing our children.

00:15:17.020 That's the thing that really blows my mind,

00:15:19.660 because surely,

00:15:20.880 isn't it every parent's instinct

00:15:22.520 to protect their child?

00:15:24.480 Well, you would think so, right?

00:15:25.880 Like, if my child had said to me

00:15:27.440 when he was four,

00:15:28.980 I'm a girl,

00:15:30.580 the start and end of that conversation would be,

00:15:33.040 are you?

00:15:34.200 That would be it.

00:15:34.920 No drama,

00:15:36.140 no nothing,

00:15:37.260 that would just...

00:15:38.500 He'd forget about it,

00:15:39.380 I'd forget about it.

00:15:40.220 I read a woman

00:15:41.200 whose child wanted to wear...

00:15:44.420 So basically,

00:15:45.140 he wanted a towel around his hair

00:15:46.620 after a shower,

00:15:47.440 like she did.

00:15:48.820 And she said,

00:15:49.740 you can't have one,

00:15:50.520 and he said,

00:15:51.020 I'm a girl.

00:15:52.400 And so what she did with that,

00:15:54.240 she thought about that all night long.

00:15:56.460 And then within six months,

00:15:58.560 that kid was transitioning.

00:16:00.220 And it's women,

00:16:02.240 it's people with vaginas.

00:16:04.740 Bodies, bodies.

00:16:05.700 Let's use the correct medical language

00:16:08.040 from the Lancet,

00:16:08.940 it's bodies with vaginas.

00:16:10.280 It's bodies with vaginas

00:16:11.260 that are more likely to do that

00:16:14.940 to their kids.

00:16:16.040 Right.

00:16:16.920 Now,

00:16:17.260 I've thought about this long and hard.

00:16:18.960 I don't really know what that is about

00:16:20.400 because I find it,

00:16:21.960 that would go against

00:16:22.760 every instinctive fibre in my body

00:16:25.180 to allow something like that

00:16:27.700 to happen to one of my children.

00:16:29.000 But it is,

00:16:30.220 it is women

00:16:31.960 that are more likely

00:16:33.040 to do it to their kids.

00:16:34.540 Men are more likely

00:16:35.440 to just bring their autogynophilia

00:16:37.500 into their family home,

00:16:39.280 which is the fetish

00:16:40.980 of wanting to be a woman.

00:16:43.000 But no,

00:16:43.580 these,

00:16:43.980 it's women,

00:16:45.360 it's women doing it

00:16:46.600 to their kids.

00:16:47.600 I've been saying it for years.

00:16:49.040 No,

00:16:49.920 but

00:16:50.480 I do want to address

00:16:53.380 the other side of this conversation

00:16:54.660 as we did last time,

00:16:55.660 which is

00:16:56.180 none of us here

00:16:59.700 are people

00:17:00.920 who want

00:17:01.560 anyone to be suffering

00:17:03.140 or anyone to be

00:17:04.420 discriminated against

00:17:05.720 or treated badly.

00:17:06.920 And this is an area

00:17:08.240 where

00:17:08.760 the rights of different groups

00:17:10.600 come into conflict.

00:17:12.220 Right?

00:17:12.460 That's why we're having

00:17:13.120 this conversation.

00:17:14.060 Right?

00:17:14.940 So,

00:17:15.360 and I appreciate

00:17:15.960 that you're very strongly

00:17:17.000 on one side of that discussion.

00:17:19.420 But how,

00:17:20.320 how do we not lose

00:17:21.460 our humanity

00:17:22.040 in the process of this

00:17:22.940 and not dehumanise

00:17:24.060 other people

00:17:24.480 when we're talking about it?

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00:17:55.660 Well, uh...

00:17:59.180 Because that is important.

00:17:59.920 Would you agree?

00:18:01.160 Totally.

00:18:02.040 Look, if somebody

00:18:03.760 doesn't bring

00:18:04.440 their identity

00:18:06.940 or whatever

00:18:08.700 into my space,

00:18:09.780 if it doesn't

00:18:10.200 conflict with my rights,

00:18:12.200 do I care?

00:18:13.940 Not very much.

00:18:15.140 It's when that person's

00:18:19.660 identity...

00:18:20.960 Well, it's not even...

00:18:21.540 It's such a silly

00:18:22.360 word, identity.

00:18:23.840 It's when that person's

00:18:25.220 wants and desires

00:18:26.160 becomes something

00:18:27.060 that I have to deal with.

00:18:28.880 I don't want to deal with it.

00:18:30.560 I don't think it's

00:18:31.560 any of my business.

00:18:32.460 Don't make it my business.

00:18:34.060 Don't bring it

00:18:34.680 into my kids' schools.

00:18:36.180 Don't bring it

00:18:36.840 into my changing rooms,

00:18:38.080 my female-only space.

00:18:39.840 Now, the dehumanizing element,

00:18:41.940 it depends

00:18:43.740 how far we want to go.

00:18:45.500 I feel it's quite dehumanizing

00:18:47.080 to say that any man

00:18:48.200 can be a woman.

00:18:49.220 I think that totally

00:18:50.240 devalues and dehumanizes

00:18:51.740 what it is to be a woman.

00:18:54.360 But I don't think

00:18:55.360 people would say

00:18:56.200 that that was dehumanizing.

00:18:57.520 Whereas if I say

00:18:58.260 that person is a man,

00:18:59.920 I should be able to say

00:19:01.000 that person is a man.

00:19:02.400 As a female,

00:19:03.320 I understand that

00:19:04.240 that person poses

00:19:05.220 much more of a threat

00:19:06.100 to me than a female.

00:19:07.700 Now, that can be

00:19:09.420 from flashing

00:19:10.460 or just looking

00:19:14.100 at somebody.

00:19:15.660 Now, you lovely gents,

00:19:18.760 you prostate havers,

00:19:21.200 you probably haven't had

00:19:23.800 those sort of exchanges,

00:19:25.420 which most women have,

00:19:27.200 since basically

00:19:28.100 you get breasts.

00:19:30.480 And so the moment

00:19:31.280 that you sort of

00:19:31.940 turn into a woman,

00:19:33.520 and sometimes even before,

00:19:34.860 there's a lot of

00:19:36.820 kind of uncomfortable staring,

00:19:38.660 and that informs

00:19:39.980 the way that most women

00:19:41.340 feel about men.

00:19:43.360 And I don't think

00:19:45.000 that means that

00:19:45.680 every time I encounter

00:19:46.820 a bloke,

00:19:47.720 I think,

00:19:48.060 oh, God,

00:19:48.640 he's a pervert.

00:19:50.120 He's probably a rapist.

00:19:51.780 I don't feel like that at all.

00:19:53.520 But I can definitely feel

00:19:55.140 creepy men.

00:19:56.720 Yeah.

00:19:57.260 You know?

00:19:58.060 And I think women

00:19:58.780 feel it much more.

00:20:00.040 Women are vulnerable

00:20:01.080 to men

00:20:02.160 in certain situations.

00:20:03.660 It's just a fact, right?

00:20:05.180 Yeah.

00:20:06.380 Go on, Francis.

00:20:07.820 One of the things,

00:20:09.320 when people talk about,

00:20:10.900 oh, the toilet issue

00:20:12.500 not being an issue,

00:20:13.360 this is the argument

00:20:14.120 that someone presented to me,

00:20:15.780 and I don't really think

00:20:17.200 there's a counter-argument to it,

00:20:18.880 which is,

00:20:19.400 in a nightclub situation,

00:20:21.160 every woman has experience.

00:20:22.720 There's a creepy guy

00:20:23.680 who's following her around,

00:20:25.000 who's making her feel uncomfortable.

00:20:26.580 Where's the number one place

00:20:27.580 she heads to in the nightclub

00:20:29.280 as a method of escape?

00:20:31.380 She goes to the female toilets.

00:20:32.560 That is a safe space.

00:20:34.880 If that is obliterated,

00:20:37.700 she's got nowhere to go.

00:20:38.780 I know.

00:20:39.700 It's, um,

00:20:40.880 I was lucky enough

00:20:42.820 to go on holiday this year,

00:20:44.000 and I'd just come back,

00:20:45.400 and we went for

00:20:46.720 a McDonald's breakfast

00:20:47.560 because we are classy.

00:20:50.500 And we went into the McDonald's,

00:20:52.220 and I went to the loo,

00:20:54.040 and I'm in the cubicle,

00:20:56.120 and a man comes in, right?

00:20:59.400 Does not speak in English,

00:21:01.140 seems to be in quite a rush,

00:21:02.600 pushes open the door.

00:21:03.980 I promise,

00:21:05.100 this is what I did.

00:21:06.080 I just went,

00:21:08.140 and just didn't breathe.

00:21:10.680 I didn't kind of,

00:21:11.940 my instant response,

00:21:13.760 it wasn't a rational thing,

00:21:14.940 I just didn't breathe

00:21:15.880 until he'd left.

00:21:17.620 Because him in that space

00:21:19.420 totally changed that space,

00:21:21.920 and I wouldn't have felt like that

00:21:22.900 if it was a woman's voice.

00:21:24.660 And so,

00:21:25.600 for some reason,

00:21:27.300 we're going to,

00:21:27.800 we're having to pretend

00:21:28.840 that that isn't how we feel

00:21:30.400 when we hear a man's voice.

00:21:32.920 And it's not,

00:21:33.880 like I said,

00:21:34.580 it's, you know,

00:21:35.000 I've got,

00:21:35.440 I'm married to a lovely bloke,

00:21:37.060 but no matter how desperate

00:21:38.820 he was for the loo,

00:21:39.640 he's not going in the women's toilets

00:21:41.500 because he understands

00:21:42.720 how women feel

00:21:44.200 about men in their space.

00:21:45.860 It's why most men

00:21:47.020 would cross over the road

00:21:48.200 and not walk behind a woman

00:21:49.500 walking on her own.

00:21:51.460 And do you think

00:21:52.240 most women feel like that,

00:21:53.520 or do you think it's just

00:21:54.560 the way a certain section

00:21:56.400 of women feel?

00:21:57.340 I think most women

00:21:58.720 feel like that.

00:21:59.940 There's a book called,

00:22:01.060 by Gavin DeBecker,

00:22:02.100 called The Gift of Fear,

00:22:03.460 and it talks about

00:22:04.580 your body basically knows,

00:22:06.680 will respond to something

00:22:07.700 quicker than you will,

00:22:08.960 and you'll feel it.

00:22:09.720 So that's like

00:22:10.260 my holding my breath.

00:22:12.340 Now what I could have done,

00:22:13.380 which I think now

00:22:14.520 what a lot of women do,

00:22:16.040 is they would rationalise it

00:22:17.580 and start reasoning

00:22:18.640 with that instant response.

00:22:20.760 And they would rationalise

00:22:21.900 something that should

00:22:22.680 probably make them afraid

00:22:23.880 and will protect them.

00:22:26.080 And I think that is happening

00:22:28.460 really scarily with this

00:22:31.420 younger generation of women,

00:22:33.440 where they're not allowed

00:22:35.060 to trust their emotions

00:22:36.560 at all and their instincts.

00:22:38.100 They're being told

00:22:38.600 that they're mean,

00:22:39.640 they're unkind.

00:22:41.300 And so I think

00:22:42.560 it's really quite dangerous.

00:22:44.580 I don't know a single woman

00:22:46.080 that wouldn't feel afraid.

00:22:47.240 In a public toilet,

00:22:48.200 for example,

00:22:49.180 if a man came in.

00:22:51.500 Well, that makes perfect sense.

00:22:53.500 So,

00:22:55.020 come back to my compassion point, though.

00:22:57.680 Okay.

00:22:58.320 Yeah?

00:22:58.740 Because I do want to explore that,

00:23:00.220 because of all the questions

00:23:01.540 that I've now answered for myself,

00:23:03.020 that is one I'm still struggling with.

00:23:07.140 You don't strike me

00:23:08.600 as a bigoted person

00:23:09.780 or as a nasty person at all.

00:23:11.340 A lot of people think you are, though.

00:23:12.660 And I know now why that is,

00:23:15.220 because you'll refuse to bend

00:23:17.740 on things that matter, right?

00:23:20.260 That's why people consider you

00:23:21.920 a nasty person,

00:23:22.680 because you say it like it is

00:23:24.700 on a subject that most people

00:23:25.860 are very uncomfortable with, right?

00:23:27.520 That's why.

00:23:29.020 So,

00:23:29.960 but,

00:23:30.720 but I think we all ought to,

00:23:33.180 and I think we all try to,

00:23:34.620 actually,

00:23:35.620 have compassion at the same time.

00:23:37.840 So how do we,

00:23:38.980 the language in the conversation

00:23:40.480 seems extremely polarised.

00:23:43.880 Is there any,

00:23:44.900 is there any way

00:23:46.460 that this conversation

00:23:47.260 can be had in a more healthy way,

00:23:48.560 or do you just feel like

00:23:49.560 it's a war and you have to win?

00:23:53.660 How can I put this?

00:23:54.780 Because in a war,

00:23:55.560 compassion is not a virtue,

00:23:56.980 it's a vice.

00:23:57.320 Yeah.

00:23:57.760 Right?

00:23:58.320 You have to,

00:23:58.940 you have to win.

00:24:00.460 Well, I do,

00:24:01.000 I do feel I do have to win.

00:24:03.560 Yeah.

00:24:03.780 Because what is at stake

00:24:07.180 is phenomenal

00:24:09.180 and just horrific.

00:24:11.980 So, for example,

00:24:13.540 the word woman.

00:24:14.940 I was in a meeting the other day

00:24:16.620 and women who would call themselves

00:24:18.680 feminists,

00:24:19.520 like proper radical feminists,

00:24:22.280 use the word,

00:24:23.760 use the words,

00:24:25.320 female people

00:24:26.100 instead of woman.

00:24:27.700 Now, I can only imagine

00:24:29.440 the reason she felt

00:24:30.680 she had to use female people

00:24:32.280 is because the word woman

00:24:33.540 would sound too coarse,

00:24:35.340 too forthright,

00:24:36.680 too exclusionary.

00:24:38.060 And so she didn't use it.

00:24:40.140 Now, the reason we can't talk

00:24:41.940 in terms that you maybe feel

00:24:43.700 it doesn't show any compassion

00:24:45.580 is because we've lost

00:24:47.540 some of the words

00:24:48.500 that we should be able

00:24:49.360 to use for this.

00:24:50.780 Now, do I think a man

00:24:51.980 that can't go out

00:24:53.400 or just feels that,

00:24:55.320 just feels that he needs

00:24:57.900 to live as something else,

00:24:59.620 whatever that might mean to him,

00:25:01.040 do I feel compassion

00:25:02.940 for any human

00:25:03.820 who I think

00:25:05.440 they're probably wrong

00:25:06.140 that that will end

00:25:06.740 their suffering,

00:25:07.840 but who am I?

00:25:09.540 You know, of course,

00:25:10.560 I feel compassion

00:25:11.280 for everybody,

00:25:12.080 but my compassion

00:25:13.360 is so used up

00:25:14.940 by the women

00:25:17.220 that will lose

00:25:19.140 their rights,

00:25:20.100 lose the ability

00:25:20.900 to be able

00:25:22.120 to say at work,

00:25:23.040 actually I don't really want

00:25:25.020 Janet using the toilets.

00:25:28.080 I felt really uncomfortable

00:25:29.060 or the woman that wants

00:25:30.080 to remove her hijab

00:25:30.980 at lunchtime

00:25:31.620 and wants to go

00:25:32.760 in the loo to do it

00:25:33.500 and she can't do it anymore

00:25:34.480 because she can't guarantee

00:25:35.560 that's a female-only space

00:25:36.860 or the teenage girl

00:25:38.580 who goes in a changing room

00:25:40.220 in a toilet,

00:25:41.080 in a communal changing room

00:25:42.160 or where there's communal parts

00:25:43.680 to a female changing room

00:25:44.920 and there's a guy who,

00:25:46.600 oh, I don't know,

00:25:47.400 I think we used to call it

00:25:48.140 indecent exposure,

00:25:49.420 who's bravely getting

00:25:50.580 his female penis out

00:25:52.520 in the changing room.

00:25:55.460 It's spent.

00:25:56.760 My compassion is fully spent

00:25:58.780 on women and girls.

00:26:02.200 So I'm not inhuman.

00:26:06.460 I do think that all human beings

00:26:08.480 should have equal access

00:26:09.940 to equal rights,

00:26:11.760 but not at my expense.

00:26:15.480 And you say not at your expense.

00:26:19.120 What's going to be the end game?

00:26:20.400 Do you think?

00:26:21.140 If you don't,

00:26:22.740 if you say that the war is lost,

00:26:24.460 if it is a war.

00:26:26.700 Look where we are.

00:26:27.700 We've got rapists

00:26:28.500 in women's prisons.

00:26:29.340 Let's look at America.

00:26:30.320 So America is,

00:26:31.740 so I sell merchandise

00:26:33.800 and raise awareness

00:26:35.540 and I've sold merchandise

00:26:36.840 to a quarter of the countries

00:26:38.080 in the known world.

00:26:39.480 So I think it's quite

00:26:40.260 a global issue for women.

00:26:42.760 25% of all my stuff

00:26:44.200 goes to the USA.

00:26:46.960 In America,

00:26:48.460 in Californian prisons,

00:26:49.640 there are pregnant women

00:26:52.040 who have probably had

00:26:54.080 pretty awful lives

00:26:56.440 in the prison population

00:26:57.460 who are impregnated

00:26:59.060 by other women

00:27:00.720 that are in the prison population.

00:27:04.300 Those women

00:27:05.120 aren't allowed to know.

00:27:06.220 So they sleep about

00:27:07.200 eight in a room

00:27:07.960 in American prisons.

00:27:09.240 Those women

00:27:09.880 aren't allowed to know

00:27:10.640 that there's a man

00:27:11.260 coming into their

00:27:12.540 prison cell.

00:27:15.640 And

00:27:16.080 there's also men

00:27:17.720 going in with HIV

00:27:18.760 into women's prisons.

00:27:20.160 And that person's

00:27:21.320 human rights

00:27:21.980 to not let anybody

00:27:23.300 know they've got HIV

00:27:24.380 completely supersedes

00:27:26.440 the women's rights

00:27:27.160 to know that somebody

00:27:27.920 is coming in with HIV.

00:27:29.420 So we could be there.

00:27:32.080 We could be where

00:27:32.980 America is

00:27:33.660 where they slice off

00:27:34.840 the breasts

00:27:35.320 of like 13-year-old girls.

00:27:37.380 At 15,

00:27:38.040 you can do it

00:27:38.500 without your parents'

00:27:39.140 consent in Oregon.

00:27:40.500 We could be like Canada

00:27:41.900 where they'll take

00:27:42.560 your kids away

00:27:43.180 if you don't affirm

00:27:43.980 their so-called gender.

00:27:45.900 I think Jordan Peterson

00:27:48.500 said about the

00:27:49.480 compassion thing,

00:27:50.860 is it ultimately

00:27:51.640 compassionate to lie?

00:27:53.340 And I don't think it is.

00:27:55.000 I think a really

00:27:56.280 brave,

00:27:57.220 kind thing

00:27:58.040 and

00:27:58.400 you know,

00:27:59.500 like I say,

00:27:59.940 I've got kids.

00:28:00.700 The kindest thing

00:28:01.460 I do for my kids

00:28:02.260 is not necessarily

00:28:03.080 give them what they want.

00:28:05.000 And I still love them

00:28:06.200 and adore them

00:28:06.860 but you know,

00:28:07.600 if my son wanted

00:28:08.680 to get up every day

00:28:09.480 and have like a

00:28:10.200 200-gram bar of chocolate

00:28:11.400 for his breakfast,

00:28:12.940 I'm not going to

00:28:13.700 allow him to do that.

00:28:14.880 And that would be

00:28:16.020 an act of

00:28:17.320 kindness and compassion.

00:28:20.100 Where I've found

00:28:21.100 this ideology

00:28:21.800 starting to encroach

00:28:22.780 more and more,

00:28:23.440 not into our lives

00:28:24.580 because I think

00:28:25.920 we can all agree

00:28:26.760 that we all live

00:28:27.460 pretty weird lives

00:28:29.540 when you consider

00:28:30.280 what we do.

00:28:31.080 But when I talk

00:28:31.760 to my friends

00:28:32.300 who have got

00:28:32.680 regular jobs

00:28:33.480 and all of a sudden

00:28:34.600 now,

00:28:35.260 they've had to

00:28:36.100 tell people

00:28:36.880 what their pronouns are

00:28:38.000 and how they want

00:28:39.680 to be addressed.

00:28:40.840 And you see that

00:28:41.720 in very, very

00:28:42.300 liberal media circles

00:28:43.640 like in the theatre

00:28:44.360 where at the start

00:28:44.980 of the rehearsal

00:28:45.580 everybody has to

00:28:46.820 announce their pronouns.

00:28:49.140 But it's also

00:28:50.200 coming into the

00:28:51.200 corporate world.

00:28:52.580 I can tell that

00:28:53.580 you're not going

00:28:54.060 to agree with this.

00:28:54.820 Why do you disagree

00:28:55.560 with the whole pronoun

00:28:56.420 thing and having

00:28:57.720 to announce it?

00:28:58.500 I think it's quite weird.

00:29:01.920 I think,

00:29:04.640 I mean,

00:29:04.980 what do people want?

00:29:06.120 Like, clearly,

00:29:07.200 this is what,

00:29:08.060 I went to a feminist

00:29:08.900 meeting a long time ago

00:29:10.000 and I did my first,

00:29:12.780 like, Facebook live.

00:29:16.520 And they sort of

00:29:17.620 wanted pronouns.

00:29:18.620 Now, I look like,

00:29:19.500 I look like this.

00:29:21.120 I'm five foot one.

00:29:22.500 I'm quite clearly

00:29:23.660 a woman.

00:29:25.540 If you don't know

00:29:26.460 what my pronouns might be,

00:29:27.900 then you're a bit

00:29:28.600 of an idiot.

00:29:30.380 And I just think

00:29:31.540 it's asking of people,

00:29:33.240 it's asking people to,

00:29:35.060 it's very sneaky,

00:29:37.180 it's saying,

00:29:38.340 come into this ideology.

00:29:40.420 Nobody really needs to know.

00:29:41.980 I mean,

00:29:42.180 if we're all supposed

00:29:42.860 to be equal,

00:29:44.200 like if we were

00:29:44.840 in a truly progressive place,

00:29:47.140 then would it really matter

00:29:48.520 what anybody's pronouns are

00:29:50.040 or how anybody identifies

00:29:51.500 at work?

00:29:52.700 I mean,

00:29:52.980 does it mean that you

00:29:53.740 can't do John's accounts

00:29:55.060 on a Friday

00:29:55.640 if you're,

00:29:56.660 are they them?

00:29:58.380 I mean,

00:30:00.360 it's just,

00:30:01.400 no.

00:30:03.120 I've got friends

00:30:03.960 who work in places

00:30:04.900 where they have to wear

00:30:05.820 the rainbow lanyard

00:30:06.740 and they hate it.

00:30:08.060 They don't want to.

00:30:09.160 They want to just go to work.

00:30:11.380 You know,

00:30:11.640 not many of them

00:30:12.880 absolutely adore their jobs.

00:30:14.720 They do it

00:30:15.160 because they want

00:30:15.800 to actually have a life

00:30:16.920 and pay for their mortgage.

00:30:18.700 You know,

00:30:18.960 there's not too many people

00:30:19.800 skipping to work

00:30:20.640 and going,

00:30:21.920 damn,

00:30:22.360 five o'clock on a Friday.

00:30:23.740 Damn,

00:30:24.100 I wish I could just work

00:30:24.960 the whole weekend.

00:30:26.300 These are our places of work.

00:30:27.720 They're not places

00:30:28.420 to encourage us

00:30:29.740 to be ideologically insane.

00:30:33.680 Do you think

00:30:34.020 this is,

00:30:34.480 this is really where we are

00:30:35.740 and it applies

00:30:36.220 to much more

00:30:37.100 than just the trans issue,

00:30:38.500 which is,

00:30:39.460 we've just,

00:30:40.280 for some reason,

00:30:41.040 I don't really understand

00:30:42.020 why I've decided

00:30:42.840 that the point

00:30:44.060 of all aspects

00:30:45.260 of society

00:30:45.900 is to do social engineering.

00:30:47.620 The police

00:30:48.180 is not about

00:30:49.060 policing crime.

00:30:49.900 It's about social engineering.

00:30:51.680 Civil service

00:30:52.300 is not about

00:30:52.800 running the country.

00:30:53.800 It's about social engineering.

00:30:55.800 Comedy is not about

00:30:56.760 making jokes.

00:30:57.860 It's about social engineering.

00:31:00.100 Every aspect

00:31:00.960 of our society,

00:31:01.880 now,

00:31:02.040 wherever you look,

00:31:03.080 it seems to be

00:31:03.860 that social engineering

00:31:04.860 is the number one priority

00:31:06.060 and the actual function

00:31:07.400 of that organisation

00:31:08.260 seems to be secondary

00:31:09.360 at the very least.

00:31:10.720 If I believed

00:31:11.600 in massive conspiracy theories

00:31:13.040 and I was China,

00:31:14.240 right,

00:31:14.960 I'd love this right now,

00:31:17.160 wouldn't you?

00:31:17.520 You just place

00:31:18.680 all these little things

00:31:19.560 like,

00:31:19.860 oh,

00:31:20.260 let's not help them

00:31:21.280 think about

00:31:21.880 long-term financial solutions

00:31:24.920 that are going to make

00:31:25.680 the poorest in the country

00:31:26.700 more wealthy.

00:31:28.500 Let's not do that.

00:31:29.780 Let's make them all

00:31:30.740 talk about gender.

00:31:32.660 Let's make them all

00:31:33.600 talk about racism.

00:31:35.900 Let's do that.

00:31:37.540 I just,

00:31:38.760 if they found

00:31:40.140 a troll farm

00:31:41.220 that was more deadly

00:31:43.000 than COVID,

00:31:43.880 I wouldn't be surprised.

00:31:46.520 I just think

00:31:47.080 that kind of

00:31:48.960 is the only thing

00:31:49.540 that really does make sense

00:31:50.880 that the information war

00:31:53.000 is upon us

00:31:54.040 and loads of these things,

00:31:56.320 they're not real issues,

00:31:57.320 are they?

00:31:57.880 No.

00:31:58.100 A real issue is

00:31:59.380 not being able

00:32:01.060 to buy a house

00:32:01.940 in your, like,

00:32:03.400 mid-twenties

00:32:04.100 or thirties.

00:32:05.800 I just talked

00:32:06.780 to a lovely taxi driver.

00:32:08.580 My parents

00:32:09.060 were both manual workers.

00:32:10.240 They got married

00:32:10.700 as teenagers.

00:32:12.220 Within three years

00:32:13.000 of being married

00:32:13.600 and they had two children

00:32:14.500 by then,

00:32:15.000 living with my grandmother,

00:32:16.140 they could afford a house.

00:32:18.120 And, like,

00:32:19.020 my dad literally

00:32:19.840 sorted sheepskins

00:32:21.280 in a,

00:32:22.240 I mean,

00:32:22.540 they both did very well

00:32:23.460 and they both worked

00:32:24.000 really hard

00:32:24.440 and my mother

00:32:24.900 was a,

00:32:25.500 cleaned offices

00:32:26.300 because she had

00:32:27.500 small children.

00:32:29.120 They could buy a house.

00:32:30.940 When I was a little girl,

00:32:32.200 teachers were well off.

00:32:34.400 They were the people

00:32:35.060 in the nice houses

00:32:36.340 and the brand new estates.

00:32:37.640 They had big houses.

00:32:39.480 Now,

00:32:40.220 I think that's,

00:32:41.320 maybe that's the,

00:32:42.180 the whole replacement thing.

00:32:44.140 That if you think about

00:32:44.980 these kind of ethereal,

00:32:47.000 ideological things,

00:32:48.020 you're not really thinking about,

00:32:49.780 actually,

00:32:50.160 my life's pretty bad.

00:32:51.880 I've got no control.

00:32:53.400 I'm never going to be able

00:32:54.340 to afford to buy a house.

00:32:55.700 I'm never going to be able

00:32:56.700 to leave this job.

00:32:57.700 My rent is so high,

00:32:59.000 which means I can't save

00:33:00.180 for a deposit.

00:33:01.180 All of those things

00:33:02.300 are really,

00:33:02.840 really important.

00:33:03.980 They make a difference.

00:33:05.320 Workers' rights.

00:33:06.600 So,

00:33:06.860 in this country,

00:33:08.320 we've got the Equality Act

00:33:09.400 and I was looking into it

00:33:10.720 to see whether or not

00:33:11.640 we should just totally

00:33:12.720 get rid of it

00:33:13.400 and start again

00:33:14.220 and have separate,

00:33:15.080 like a Disability Rights Act,

00:33:16.980 for example,

00:33:18.120 because I think that really,

00:33:19.480 that really is important.

00:33:21.860 Just to go on a tangent,

00:33:24.260 trains may be emblazoned

00:33:25.480 with pride flags,

00:33:27.220 but most people

00:33:28.740 with disabilities

00:33:30.080 have to plan a journey,

00:33:32.360 like months in advance,

00:33:33.600 to make sure

00:33:34.080 that there's someone

00:33:34.600 to meet them

00:33:35.160 and half the stations

00:33:35.980 don't even have,

00:33:37.180 you can't even get off a train

00:33:38.420 onto a platform.

00:33:39.820 Nobody cares about that.

00:33:40.900 It's much better

00:33:41.380 to talk about

00:33:42.140 the minority rights

00:33:43.860 of LGBT people,

00:33:45.740 which I have no idea

00:33:47.040 what rights those people

00:33:47.960 don't have in this country.

00:33:50.180 And now I've forgotten

00:33:51.180 where I've gone

00:33:52.400 with my tangent.

00:33:53.580 Well, actually,

00:33:54.120 you were making,

00:33:55.160 I think,

00:33:55.400 what is a very profound point,

00:33:56.840 which is all of these distractions

00:33:58.880 and the conversations

00:34:00.560 we have about

00:34:01.580 all of these issues,

00:34:02.720 which are much more

00:34:03.700 intellectual than practical.

00:34:05.280 are a way of giving us

00:34:06.960 all something

00:34:07.520 to chew on mentally

00:34:09.240 and to try and control

00:34:11.120 in a world

00:34:12.300 in which we increasingly

00:34:13.280 control less and less,

00:34:14.800 have less and less,

00:34:15.880 particularly for young people,

00:34:17.160 opportunities

00:34:17.740 that they see

00:34:18.980 in front of them

00:34:19.600 going forward.

00:34:20.200 So if you can't control

00:34:21.080 your job,

00:34:21.820 you can't control your housing,

00:34:22.820 you can't control your prospect,

00:34:24.160 but you can control

00:34:25.200 your gender.

00:34:26.260 And by the way,

00:34:27.080 if you start talking

00:34:27.920 about it quite a lot,

00:34:29.200 you're going to get attention,

00:34:30.480 you're going to get

00:34:30.940 positive reinforcement.

00:34:31.920 If you do it on social media,

00:34:33.260 you might become

00:34:34.200 a mini celebrity

00:34:35.560 in that world,

00:34:36.380 et cetera.

00:34:37.560 And it's all a distraction,

00:34:39.060 so should we stop

00:34:39.540 talking about it?

00:34:41.940 Well, we could,

00:34:43.000 but the unfortunate thing

00:34:44.020 is it now has

00:34:44.840 practical consequences.

00:34:46.460 And so I think

00:34:48.980 it did start off

00:34:49.900 as something like

00:34:51.200 a few people

00:34:51.700 talking about it online

00:34:52.680 and it blew up.

00:34:54.800 And then the shame

00:34:56.600 of it all,

00:34:57.680 the thing that killed it

00:34:58.840 is when the state

00:34:59.840 got involved.

00:35:00.680 So in 2004,

00:35:01.860 when we made

00:35:02.520 a legal fiction,

00:35:03.400 which was basically

00:35:04.040 to cover up the fact

00:35:04.820 that we were homophobes

00:35:05.780 and we didn't want

00:35:06.340 gay people to marry,

00:35:07.840 same-sex couples to marry,

00:35:09.380 then we invented

00:35:11.040 this GRA

00:35:11.700 and this Gender Recognition Act

00:35:13.360 and the lovely David Lammy

00:35:14.660 was instrumental.

00:35:16.180 And Norman Tebbitt

00:35:17.180 said,

00:35:18.560 are we really creating

00:35:19.700 an act

00:35:21.120 in which women

00:35:22.420 will be,

00:35:23.400 have XY chromosomes

00:35:25.660 and men

00:35:26.240 will have XX?

00:35:27.560 This is a fiction,

00:35:28.460 this is not true.

00:35:30.040 And Anne Woodcombe,

00:35:31.040 I think she also

00:35:31.640 spoke against it.

00:35:33.280 Conviction politicians,

00:35:34.500 what happened to them?

00:35:36.840 And so

00:35:37.420 it's just,

00:35:40.680 it's,

00:35:41.100 that's the bit

00:35:41.740 that's ruined it.

00:35:43.140 because you can have

00:35:44.500 fringe people

00:35:45.260 that kind of think

00:35:46.080 that gender

00:35:47.320 is something ethereal

00:35:48.500 and we can just do

00:35:49.340 whatever we like

00:35:50.120 and isn't that great

00:35:50.920 and yeah,

00:35:52.000 you know,

00:35:52.900 people have always

00:35:53.440 had crazy ideas.

00:35:54.660 We just didn't have

00:35:55.280 a state that stepped in

00:35:56.180 and gone,

00:35:56.660 oh yeah,

00:35:57.260 that's right,

00:35:58.240 let's teach it in schools.

00:36:00.360 I think the one

00:36:01.880 part of

00:36:03.460 your argument

00:36:04.960 that people would

00:36:05.640 really push back on

00:36:06.680 is the autogynophile

00:36:07.820 element of it.

00:36:09.560 And you've used

00:36:10.580 that word once.

00:36:11.520 Number one,

00:36:13.320 what does that

00:36:14.000 actually mean?

00:36:16.060 Okay,

00:36:16.540 so it's the fetish

00:36:17.680 of embodying,

00:36:19.760 of having a vagina

00:36:21.320 and embodying

00:36:22.500 the body

00:36:23.520 of a woman.

00:36:24.420 So it's about

00:36:25.280 literally

00:36:26.000 wanting to be

00:36:28.560 a woman

00:36:28.920 or believing

00:36:29.720 that you are.

00:36:30.280 So you have

00:36:30.920 a sexual fantasy

00:36:31.740 and you're turned

00:36:32.460 on by yourself

00:36:33.180 as a woman.

00:36:35.220 Right,

00:36:36.140 okay.

00:36:36.320 You look a bit sick.

00:36:37.200 Or excited,

00:36:39.980 you never know.

00:36:41.060 Depends.

00:36:41.680 I mean,

00:36:41.880 there's new frontiers

00:36:42.820 every day,

00:36:43.440 Posie.

00:36:44.040 So that being

00:36:44.940 the case,

00:36:45.740 right,

00:36:46.160 to what extent

00:36:48.100 do you personally

00:36:49.460 think that

00:36:50.220 people identifying

00:36:52.640 as a woman

00:36:53.580 have this condition

00:36:54.620 and why do you

00:36:55.320 think that?

00:36:56.540 So I think

00:36:58.120 it's probably

00:36:58.500 a really large number.

00:36:59.840 So we used

00:37:00.360 to call people,

00:37:00.960 we used to call

00:37:01.620 them transsexuals

00:37:02.640 and transvestites.

00:37:04.180 And I think

00:37:04.760 we knew

00:37:05.320 that transvestites

00:37:06.700 had a fetish

00:37:09.220 and they didn't

00:37:11.400 often walk around

00:37:12.380 the streets

00:37:13.040 in their get-up.

00:37:14.620 They often

00:37:14.960 sort of kept it

00:37:15.600 at home,

00:37:16.040 you know,

00:37:16.260 like where,

00:37:17.480 I don't know,

00:37:17.980 arguably that's

00:37:18.720 where you should

00:37:19.220 perform your kink.

00:37:22.640 So we knew

00:37:24.420 that this happened.

00:37:25.200 We knew

00:37:25.540 that there were

00:37:26.180 issues with it,

00:37:27.220 but these men

00:37:29.020 used to meet

00:37:29.480 in secret

00:37:29.980 and it was all

00:37:30.400 a bit shameful

00:37:30.960 and taboo,

00:37:31.660 which is also

00:37:32.120 part of the excitement

00:37:33.320 of being an

00:37:34.100 autogynophile.

00:37:35.320 And Grayson Perry

00:37:36.920 will talk about it.

00:37:38.920 Risk is

00:37:39.760 a big aphrodisiac.

00:37:42.720 You know,

00:37:42.960 and I mean,

00:37:43.300 the first time

00:37:43.900 I went out

00:37:44.380 in my mum's

00:37:45.140 clothes was

00:37:46.420 very, very exciting

00:37:47.320 and I became

00:37:48.800 addicted to that.

00:37:50.440 He'll talk about

00:37:51.240 absolutely

00:37:52.160 that sexual

00:37:53.740 arisal is all

00:37:54.500 part of his

00:37:55.040 dress-up.

00:37:55.920 That's why he wears

00:37:56.760 quite wide

00:37:57.700 dresses.

00:37:59.240 And he'll talk

00:38:00.120 about that.

00:38:00.520 That's not me

00:38:01.280 saying that

00:38:02.200 that's what he does.

00:38:03.100 But now

00:38:04.660 we have to

00:38:05.120 pretend that

00:38:05.700 that's not

00:38:06.240 right and

00:38:07.000 it's stunning

00:38:07.520 and brave.

00:38:08.700 I think about

00:38:09.440 10% of all

00:38:10.300 porn consumed

00:38:11.480 is,

00:38:12.960 I can't use,

00:38:13.980 they would use

00:38:14.600 the word to

00:38:15.080 describe it,

00:38:15.760 so transsexual

00:38:16.840 or men

00:38:18.880 who have

00:38:19.520 male genitals

00:38:20.840 but also have

00:38:22.140 breast implants.

00:38:23.760 That's quite

00:38:24.540 high in porn.

00:38:25.300 I talked to

00:38:26.840 a mother

00:38:27.540 and her son

00:38:29.120 had been

00:38:29.480 booted out

00:38:30.440 of a

00:38:31.860 baseball team

00:38:32.620 and she

00:38:34.580 said that

00:38:35.680 he then sort

00:38:36.220 of went in

00:38:36.580 his room

00:38:36.940 for a couple

00:38:37.380 of years.

00:38:38.340 He was

00:38:38.500 absolutely

00:38:38.920 gutted

00:38:39.460 because it

00:38:40.380 was American

00:38:40.900 and obviously

00:38:42.040 in America

00:38:42.440 these things

00:38:42.900 are massive

00:38:43.640 aren't they

00:38:44.040 if you're

00:38:44.340 part of

00:38:44.800 the first

00:38:45.820 team

00:38:46.220 and unlike

00:38:47.260 in Britain

00:38:47.760 where I think

00:38:48.400 if you're not

00:38:48.820 in the first

00:38:49.200 team there's

00:38:49.540 a second

00:38:49.900 or a third.

00:38:51.040 If you're not

00:38:51.320 in the team

00:38:51.660 you're out

00:38:52.140 and he was

00:38:52.940 really depressed

00:38:53.620 and then she

00:38:54.280 said he said

00:38:54.940 that he was

00:38:55.420 a woman

00:38:56.040 he identified

00:38:56.880 as a girl

00:38:57.420 and it transpired

00:38:59.120 that he identified

00:38:59.820 as a girl

00:39:00.380 because he

00:39:00.860 really enjoyed

00:39:01.600 watching pornography

00:39:03.140 featuring lesbians

00:39:04.700 and so he

00:39:05.900 decided he wanted

00:39:06.600 to be a lesbian

00:39:07.360 and so that

00:39:09.040 would be the

00:39:09.440 beginnings of

00:39:10.000 what we would

00:39:10.480 call autogynephilia.

00:39:14.040 There's all

00:39:14.680 sorts of reasons

00:39:15.360 that people

00:39:15.860 have sexual

00:39:17.180 fetishes.

00:39:17.900 There are men

00:39:18.380 that are obsessed

00:39:19.020 with feet.

00:39:20.380 I know one

00:39:21.100 such man that's

00:39:21.840 obsessed with feet

00:39:22.520 and that's because

00:39:23.220 his mother

00:39:24.220 mainly ignored him

00:39:25.020 but her friend

00:39:25.860 used to kick him

00:39:26.680 under the table.

00:39:28.260 You know these

00:39:28.720 I think your

00:39:29.360 sexual fetish

00:39:30.200 kind of the

00:39:30.980 mechanics of it

00:39:31.860 can set before

00:39:32.840 you're sort of

00:39:34.080 six, seven years

00:39:34.860 old.

00:39:35.580 Again, Grayson Perry

00:39:36.660 will talk about

00:39:37.380 this.

00:39:38.080 This is not

00:39:38.620 something that

00:39:39.100 I've made up.

00:39:40.780 So I do think

00:39:41.680 there's a high

00:39:42.360 rate of

00:39:43.620 autogynephilia.

00:39:44.620 Debbie Hayton

00:39:45.260 for example

00:39:45.720 that you had on

00:39:46.460 has written about

00:39:47.600 being an

00:39:48.200 autogynophile.

00:39:49.980 And that being

00:39:50.960 the case

00:39:51.500 so where does

00:39:52.280 gender dysphoria

00:39:53.000 come into it

00:39:53.660 then?

00:39:54.820 For them

00:39:55.320 I don't know.

00:39:57.460 I don't know

00:39:57.920 that it does.

00:39:59.080 I think if you

00:39:59.760 had a powerful

00:40:00.460 like women

00:40:01.640 don't really have

00:40:02.580 fetishes as much

00:40:03.840 as men.

00:40:04.340 I'm not saying

00:40:04.800 none of us do

00:40:05.520 but generally

00:40:07.340 speaking we don't.

00:40:08.740 We also don't

00:40:09.620 have the same

00:40:10.140 relationship with

00:40:10.960 sex as men do.

00:40:12.640 Many women have

00:40:13.420 tried to pretend

00:40:13.940 that we're the

00:40:14.480 same as men

00:40:15.060 but we're really

00:40:15.880 really not.

00:40:16.360 Our bodies are

00:40:16.860 very very

00:40:17.660 different.

00:40:19.880 But the

00:40:21.180 driver of

00:40:22.720 sexual fetish

00:40:24.780 and the

00:40:25.980 power I think

00:40:26.820 it can have

00:40:27.360 over someone

00:40:28.100 if you look

00:40:29.800 at murder

00:40:30.660 for example

00:40:31.260 that can

00:40:32.500 sometimes be

00:40:33.420 a sexual

00:40:34.060 fetish

00:40:34.580 and so

00:40:35.500 that will

00:40:35.920 go from

00:40:36.620 as shown

00:40:37.720 in Sarah

00:40:38.860 Everard's

00:40:39.380 murder

00:40:39.720 flashing

00:40:41.160 and it will

00:40:42.280 just go up

00:40:42.960 and it will

00:40:43.840 just increase

00:40:44.800 and it's

00:40:45.320 all to do

00:40:45.900 with a

00:40:46.200 sexual driver

00:40:46.880 often serial

00:40:47.840 killers are

00:40:48.760 driven by

00:40:49.200 sexual desires

00:40:50.120 and we know

00:40:52.740 this we know

00:40:53.700 this we know

00:40:54.420 that there

00:40:55.220 there used

00:40:56.200 to be all

00:40:57.560 sorts of

00:40:57.980 different inquiries

00:40:58.800 into behaviour

00:41:00.160 studies as to

00:41:01.120 why people

00:41:01.700 commit these

00:41:02.200 crimes we

00:41:03.380 don't seem to

00:41:03.980 want to look

00:41:04.380 at that anymore

00:41:05.000 I'm going to

00:41:06.620 be honest with you

00:41:07.020 when we started

00:41:07.560 the show three

00:41:08.220 and a half

00:41:08.540 years ago I

00:41:09.080 didn't think

00:41:09.560 we'd be sitting

00:41:10.060 talking about

00:41:10.760 sorry

00:41:13.200 no it's not

00:41:14.400 your fault

00:41:14.860 I'm just

00:41:15.300 I'm like

00:41:16.480 how do we

00:41:16.920 get here

00:41:17.500 this is so

00:41:18.760 weird

00:41:19.340 like if I

00:41:20.720 try and explain

00:41:21.440 this stuff to

00:41:22.160 like my family

00:41:22.900 back

00:41:23.200 like my mum

00:41:25.380 I'm not even

00:41:26.380 sure I can

00:41:26.740 explain to my mum

00:41:27.460 what I do

00:41:27.900 for a living

00:41:28.360 anymore

00:41:28.820 we are through

00:41:30.600 the looking glass

00:41:31.300 with this shit

00:41:31.800 I know

00:41:32.180 and I find it

00:41:33.820 very confusing

00:41:34.500 honestly

00:41:35.480 there's kink

00:41:36.380 clubs at

00:41:37.200 universities

00:41:37.880 official

00:41:38.900 kink

00:41:39.820 clubs

00:41:40.260 BDSM

00:41:41.600 official

00:41:42.820 university

00:41:43.640 is it

00:41:44.540 discord

00:41:45.080 so it'll

00:41:46.160 be like

00:41:46.500 yeah

00:41:46.900 so BDSM

00:41:49.300 my son was

00:41:50.320 sent out

00:41:50.980 on Instagram

00:41:52.420 there was a

00:41:53.140 post about

00:41:53.700 sex work

00:41:54.540 being a sex

00:41:55.640 worker as a

00:41:56.260 student

00:41:56.720 what

00:41:57.580 yeah

00:41:58.200 so I just

00:42:00.020 want this

00:42:00.320 clarified

00:42:00.720 because I'm

00:42:01.360 suddenly feeling

00:42:02.000 very old

00:42:02.560 and very

00:42:02.940 conservative

00:42:03.500 sex work

00:42:04.860 as in

00:42:05.180 prostitution

00:42:05.880 or being

00:42:06.720 a stripper

00:42:07.220 no as in

00:42:08.300 anything goes

00:42:09.480 anything

00:42:10.040 how to be

00:42:11.060 safe

00:42:11.480 and a sex

00:42:12.520 worker

00:42:12.900 at uni

00:42:14.860 how to

00:42:15.400 pay your

00:42:15.800 way through

00:42:16.200 uni

00:42:16.540 being a

00:42:17.400 sex worker

00:42:17.900 do you think

00:42:19.940 the pendulum

00:42:21.000 is just

00:42:21.540 over swung

00:42:22.280 here

00:42:22.640 Kelly

00:42:23.600 you know

00:42:24.620 the society

00:42:26.520 was discriminatory

00:42:27.680 against gay

00:42:28.600 people

00:42:29.000 it was

00:42:29.440 discriminatory

00:42:30.100 against women

00:42:30.700 and in the

00:42:31.920 process of

00:42:32.740 liberating all

00:42:33.640 those groups

00:42:34.120 and making

00:42:34.540 sure they all

00:42:35.180 had the same

00:42:35.680 rights as

00:42:36.040 everybody else

00:42:36.640 we kind of

00:42:37.500 just went

00:42:37.860 you know

00:42:38.120 what

00:42:38.320 let's

00:42:38.660 not have

00:42:39.300 shame

00:42:39.580 about

00:42:39.800 anything

00:42:40.340 let's

00:42:41.040 say that

00:42:41.300 everything

00:42:41.640 is normal

00:42:42.280 everything

00:42:43.280 every human

00:42:44.500 instinct

00:42:45.000 is to be

00:42:46.120 celebrated

00:42:46.880 there's nothing

00:42:48.120 wrong with

00:42:48.940 anything

00:42:49.460 there's no

00:42:49.920 right or

00:42:50.380 wrong

00:42:50.580 that's

00:42:50.980 moralistic

00:42:51.640 judgments

00:42:52.120 and we

00:42:52.740 need to

00:42:53.220 everything

00:42:53.540 is relative

00:42:54.100 and it's

00:42:54.460 all about

00:42:54.920 you know

00:42:55.340 whatever

00:42:55.920 and we've

00:42:57.100 just gone

00:42:57.520 a little

00:42:57.840 bit too

00:42:58.340 far

00:42:58.620 and therefore

00:42:59.420 we're going

00:42:59.800 to have

00:43:00.140 a correction

00:43:00.780 back when

00:43:01.420 the pendulum

00:43:01.940 sort of

00:43:02.400 slows and

00:43:02.980 stops

00:43:03.320 and then

00:43:03.720 swings back

00:43:04.240 what I fear

00:43:05.620 is that we'll

00:43:07.020 go so far

00:43:07.940 into chaos

00:43:08.780 that the only

00:43:10.240 thing that will

00:43:11.380 be able to

00:43:11.800 bring us

00:43:12.260 back is a

00:43:13.060 very prescriptive

00:43:14.280 religion

00:43:14.720 yeah

00:43:15.160 so I do

00:43:16.820 fear that

00:43:17.620 it's like

00:43:19.300 humans at the

00:43:20.100 moment are all

00:43:21.020 running around

00:43:21.800 nobody knows

00:43:22.740 what's morally

00:43:23.420 okay

00:43:23.860 in the 1980s

00:43:26.400 single mothers

00:43:27.060 were demonized

00:43:27.920 terrible

00:43:28.620 they're the

00:43:29.600 sort of people

00:43:30.180 that were left

00:43:30.580 behind raising

00:43:31.420 children

00:43:31.900 and that

00:43:33.940 was

00:43:34.120 they were

00:43:35.100 supposed to

00:43:35.440 feel a

00:43:35.800 great deal

00:43:36.180 of shame

00:43:36.720 and now

00:43:37.820 you've got

00:43:38.280 women in

00:43:38.780 pajamas

00:43:39.260 walking their

00:43:40.740 kids to school

00:43:41.460 eating a packet

00:43:42.060 of frazzles

00:43:42.580 for breakfast

00:43:43.200 with no shame

00:43:45.140 whatsoever

00:43:45.560 and if you

00:43:46.040 criticize those

00:43:46.860 women

00:43:47.120 if you say

00:43:48.260 Jesus

00:43:49.580 like how is

00:43:51.280 that kid

00:43:51.720 gonna have

00:43:52.200 any sort

00:43:52.740 of life

00:43:53.240 or whatever

00:43:54.060 you're like

00:43:54.880 oh well

00:43:55.320 you know

00:43:55.620 that's really

00:43:56.220 shameful

00:43:56.720 and shaming

00:43:57.600 but I bring

00:43:59.340 it back

00:43:59.760 I say

00:44:00.240 bring back

00:44:00.980 shame

00:44:02.060 well this

00:44:02.980 is

00:44:03.280 I mean

00:44:05.000 I said this

00:44:06.600 the other day

00:44:07.020 like the culture

00:44:07.960 was basically

00:44:08.640 turning a lot

00:44:09.340 of normal

00:44:09.720 people into

00:44:10.380 these radical

00:44:12.380 reactionaries

00:44:13.420 simply because

00:44:14.800 quite a lot

00:44:15.640 of us are

00:44:16.000 just going

00:44:16.560 you've gone

00:44:18.080 too far

00:44:18.540 now

00:44:18.840 you know

00:44:19.900 like some

00:44:22.280 things ought

00:44:23.300 not to be

00:44:23.840 encouraged

00:44:24.340 do you know

00:44:25.580 and I mean

00:44:26.300 you gave an

00:44:26.800 example there

00:44:27.480 but you know

00:44:28.160 single parenthood

00:44:29.260 whether it's

00:44:29.820 mothers or fathers

00:44:30.560 to say that

00:44:31.580 it's not

00:44:32.120 going to lead

00:44:32.860 to the best

00:44:33.340 outcome

00:44:33.700 statistically

00:44:34.160 speaking

00:44:34.620 now you're

00:44:35.180 you're shaming

00:44:35.740 whatever

00:44:36.440 slut shaming

00:44:37.780 well is it

00:44:38.420 a good idea

00:44:39.020 for for

00:44:39.820 women to have

00:44:40.840 sex with hundreds

00:44:41.540 of men

00:44:42.000 and to treat

00:44:42.540 sex the way

00:44:43.280 men do

00:44:43.800 who are

00:44:44.240 designed

00:44:44.720 biologically

00:44:45.320 very differently

00:44:46.020 is it

00:44:46.780 or should

00:44:47.360 should

00:44:47.720 I mean

00:44:48.020 every society

00:44:49.060 prior to us

00:44:49.820 has had some

00:44:50.400 sort of restrictions

00:44:51.180 around that

00:44:51.900 to encourage

00:44:52.920 certain types

00:44:53.520 do we

00:44:54.520 do we throw

00:44:55.360 all past

00:44:56.820 learning out

00:44:58.540 of the window

00:44:58.940 I reckon

00:45:00.860 apparently

00:45:01.960 that's where

00:45:02.600 we're going

00:45:03.140 I think

00:45:04.040 religion left

00:45:05.060 and the big

00:45:06.680 gaping void

00:45:07.700 that it's left

00:45:08.740 is being filled

00:45:09.540 with narcissistic

00:45:10.960 desires

00:45:11.820 I think that's

00:45:13.440 and I'm an

00:45:13.880 atheist

00:45:14.140 I'm a gold star

00:45:15.120 atheist

00:45:15.420 I've never

00:45:16.120 believed in

00:45:16.860 God at all

00:45:17.960 but I do

00:45:19.200 think I'm

00:45:19.820 very lucky

00:45:20.400 to have been

00:45:21.180 born in a

00:45:21.720 country where

00:45:22.440 the themes

00:45:24.260 of Christian

00:45:25.940 moral thinking

00:45:27.020 were still

00:45:27.520 running through

00:45:28.300 our education

00:45:29.660 system

00:45:30.320 whereas now

00:45:31.400 it's really

00:45:32.300 weird on the

00:45:32.860 left isn't it

00:45:33.420 because

00:45:33.760 they'll really

00:45:35.280 go for

00:45:35.780 Christians

00:45:36.240 but not

00:45:36.960 other religions

00:45:37.540 which I

00:45:37.980 would argue

00:45:38.600 were maybe

00:45:39.540 much more

00:45:40.220 problematic

00:45:40.760 than Christianity

00:45:42.200 much more

00:45:43.040 prescriptive

00:45:43.740 much more

00:45:44.360 sexist

00:45:45.080 and it's

00:45:46.940 just it's

00:45:47.480 really interesting

00:45:48.240 I made a

00:45:48.700 comment

00:45:48.880 well I

00:45:51.300 made a

00:45:51.620 comment

00:45:51.840 the other

00:45:52.160 night

00:45:52.540 about

00:45:53.100 I think

00:45:54.840 I might

00:45:55.200 have even

00:45:55.440 been talking

00:45:55.900 about

00:45:56.140 Afghanistan

00:45:56.620 and someone

00:45:57.280 said something

00:45:58.260 about

00:45:58.580 they were

00:45:58.880 American

00:45:59.300 they said

00:46:00.140 something

00:46:00.500 about

00:46:00.960 their

00:46:01.900 country

00:46:02.220 was really

00:46:02.580 bad

00:46:02.840 on abortion

00:46:04.080 as if it

00:46:04.840 was comparable

00:46:05.420 I was like

00:46:05.880 well find

00:46:07.040 me a

00:46:07.640 Christian

00:46:08.240 government

00:46:09.120 that is

00:46:10.140 controlling

00:46:11.500 a country

00:46:12.140 and stopping

00:46:13.220 women from

00:46:14.260 being able

00:46:14.780 to have

00:46:15.060 jobs

00:46:15.400 and I'm

00:46:15.760 going to

00:46:15.960 agree with

00:46:16.480 you 100%

00:46:17.380 but

00:46:18.260 America

00:46:19.620 well it's

00:46:20.040 a republic

00:46:20.500 but it's

00:46:20.940 like a

00:46:21.240 democratic

00:46:21.680 republic

00:46:22.160 and they've

00:46:23.100 decided in

00:46:23.780 some places

00:46:24.480 I totally

00:46:25.460 don't agree

00:46:26.100 but they've

00:46:27.420 decided in

00:46:28.140 some places

00:46:28.780 that they

00:46:29.240 don't want

00:46:29.860 people to

00:46:30.320 have access

00:46:30.800 to abortion

00:46:31.400 past a

00:46:31.980 certain point

00:46:32.520 I don't

00:46:33.720 think that

00:46:34.160 is barbarism

00:46:35.040 I think

00:46:35.560 they're

00:46:35.780 totally wrong

00:46:36.620 and I

00:46:37.000 think they

00:46:37.300 need to

00:46:37.660 win the

00:46:38.080 argument

00:46:38.420 properly

00:46:38.920 in those

00:46:40.320 places

00:46:40.760 but that

00:46:41.800 is what

00:46:42.260 democracy

00:46:43.320 is about

00:46:43.840 it's not

00:46:44.200 always about

00:46:44.700 doing the

00:46:45.080 things that

00:46:45.440 are right

00:46:45.860 or that

00:46:46.160 you totally

00:46:46.900 agree with

00:46:47.460 it's about

00:46:47.980 the will

00:46:49.440 of the

00:46:49.680 people

00:46:50.020 to me

00:46:51.840 a large

00:46:52.840 part of

00:46:53.380 the problem

00:46:53.920 comes from

00:46:54.880 feminism

00:46:55.380 itself

00:46:55.980 Anton get

00:46:59.520 the smelling

00:46:59.960 salt

00:47:00.320 we tried to

00:47:03.700 have this

00:47:04.000 conversation last

00:47:04.820 time if you

00:47:05.240 remember

00:47:05.600 yeah

00:47:05.980 because

00:47:06.680 she called

00:47:08.060 me an

00:47:08.280 MRA

00:47:08.640 pretty much

00:47:09.560 that was

00:47:10.720 my jokes

00:47:11.520 but you

00:47:13.860 look at

00:47:14.520 a lot

00:47:15.060 of what

00:47:15.520 feminism

00:47:16.040 should be

00:47:16.580 standing up

00:47:17.120 for

00:47:17.320 is standing

00:47:17.740 up for

00:47:18.060 women

00:47:18.320 and they

00:47:19.920 don't seem

00:47:20.380 to be

00:47:20.740 like you see

00:47:21.540 what's happening

00:47:22.160 in Afghanistan

00:47:22.860 where are the

00:47:24.800 feminists up in

00:47:25.480 arms about the

00:47:26.180 treatment of

00:47:26.600 women

00:47:26.820 where are they

00:47:28.000 commenting

00:47:28.360 you know

00:47:29.120 they will

00:47:30.280 absolutely

00:47:30.860 lambast

00:47:31.540 and I don't

00:47:32.320 know enough

00:47:32.640 about the

00:47:33.000 issue

00:47:33.220 about what's

00:47:35.360 happening in

00:47:35.820 America

00:47:36.180 America

00:47:36.280 but they

00:47:37.220 won't

00:47:37.660 criticise

00:47:38.180 Islam

00:47:38.540 no I know

00:47:39.840 and you go

00:47:40.660 well hang on

00:47:41.320 a second

00:47:41.760 what is it

00:47:42.720 only white

00:47:43.380 women that

00:47:43.900 you care

00:47:44.180 about

00:47:44.380 or western

00:47:44.820 women

00:47:45.120 oh no

00:47:46.220 there's

00:47:46.460 cultural

00:47:46.860 relativism

00:47:47.540 so if it's

00:47:48.080 happening in

00:47:48.600 another culture

00:47:49.860 then you can't

00:47:51.080 comment so

00:47:51.700 if somebody's

00:47:52.700 getting their

00:47:53.160 genitals

00:47:53.580 completely

00:47:54.140 sliced off

00:47:55.060 in another

00:47:55.580 country

00:47:56.000 you shouldn't

00:47:56.560 really talk

00:47:56.980 about that

00:47:57.500 somebody

00:47:58.400 I had a

00:47:59.360 discussion

00:47:59.880 with somebody

00:48:00.360 the other

00:48:00.600 day online

00:48:01.160 and she

00:48:03.420 totally lost

00:48:04.020 the argument

00:48:04.400 but it was

00:48:04.840 very funny

00:48:05.440 so I was

00:48:06.640 sort of

00:48:06.920 trying to

00:48:07.280 say look

00:48:07.640 I know

00:48:07.960 you don't

00:48:08.260 agree with

00:48:08.580 me

00:48:08.680 I really

00:48:09.040 respect the

00:48:09.540 fact that

00:48:09.760 you'll talk

00:48:10.180 because I'm

00:48:10.560 trying to

00:48:10.920 understand why

00:48:11.800 anybody would

00:48:12.360 think it's

00:48:12.720 all right for

00:48:13.200 a child age

00:48:13.880 four to

00:48:15.220 call themselves

00:48:15.940 the opposite

00:48:16.340 sex like

00:48:16.960 where you think

00:48:17.660 that goes

00:48:18.200 what you think

00:48:18.800 the harms

00:48:19.200 are blah blah

00:48:19.680 blah and

00:48:20.580 she said well

00:48:21.040 you know

00:48:21.860 different people

00:48:22.520 make different

00:48:23.020 life choices

00:48:23.640 in some countries

00:48:25.060 there's child

00:48:25.640 marriage but

00:48:26.700 in some countries

00:48:29.060 there's child

00:48:29.680 marriage but

00:48:30.300 you know

00:48:30.900 culturally that's

00:48:32.120 not okay here

00:48:32.900 and I was like

00:48:33.320 have you just

00:48:34.120 said it's all

00:48:34.800 right that

00:48:35.320 there's child

00:48:35.940 marriage and

00:48:37.200 she said well

00:48:38.120 I'm just saying

00:48:38.660 people make

00:48:39.120 different choices

00:48:39.700 I went what

00:48:40.560 child has made

00:48:41.580 that that

00:48:42.480 choice I was

00:48:43.820 like look you've

00:48:44.660 lost the argument

00:48:45.140 let's just move

00:48:45.760 past that bit

00:48:46.380 because I still

00:48:46.820 wouldn't understand

00:48:47.380 but yeah there

00:48:48.700 are there are

00:48:50.320 people that talk

00:48:51.420 in those terms

00:48:52.300 so do do

00:48:54.520 feminists care

00:48:55.600 well it depends

00:48:56.740 what sort of

00:48:57.160 feminists but do

00:48:57.980 feminists care about

00:48:58.880 Afghanistan there

00:49:00.060 have been some

00:49:00.680 radical feminists

00:49:01.520 about 30 of them

00:49:02.400 who rescued

00:49:02.940 quite a lot

00:49:03.440 of women

00:49:03.840 and so I do

00:49:06.720 think they care

00:49:07.580 it's a bit like

00:49:09.380 Qatar with the

00:49:10.920 football

00:49:11.200 are they going

00:49:11.720 to take the

00:49:12.080 knee for all

00:49:12.740 the slaves that

00:49:13.340 died building

00:49:13.960 the stadium

00:49:15.620 will they take

00:49:16.460 the knee there

00:49:17.040 or is it only

00:49:17.480 historical slavery

00:49:19.420 that we need to

00:49:20.020 care about

00:49:20.580 it's all this

00:49:22.600 nonsense

00:49:23.240 like there's

00:49:24.260 people fishing

00:49:25.320 for prawns

00:49:26.240 in Thailand

00:49:26.820 where what they

00:49:27.980 do is they

00:49:28.500 take a load of

00:49:29.180 people and

00:49:29.540 they'll chuck

00:49:30.040 one person

00:49:30.940 off right at

00:49:32.120 the beginning

00:49:32.480 of the trip

00:49:33.200 so everybody

00:49:33.720 just does

00:49:34.220 exactly as

00:49:34.740 they're told

00:49:35.180 you know

00:49:36.160 there's modern

00:49:36.800 slavery that

00:49:37.720 totally dwarfs

00:49:38.920 historical slavery

00:49:40.340 but we don't

00:49:41.600 nobody's talking

00:49:42.280 about that

00:49:42.900 it's so

00:49:45.220 let's go back

00:49:46.380 to the origins

00:49:47.760 of feminism

00:49:48.460 do I think

00:49:50.160 feminism has a

00:49:51.100 part to play

00:49:51.900 yes I probably

00:49:53.660 do

00:49:54.040 I think there

00:49:56.680 is something

00:49:57.180 in the notion

00:49:58.480 even with

00:49:59.360 second wave

00:50:00.140 that said

00:50:00.600 men and

00:50:00.940 women are

00:50:01.220 the same

00:50:01.600 it's just

00:50:02.000 the way

00:50:02.260 we're

00:50:02.400 socialized

00:50:02.960 so I

00:50:04.740 inhabit this

00:50:05.400 body

00:50:05.760 it's female

00:50:07.240 it's five

00:50:07.980 foot one

00:50:08.460 I'd probably

00:50:09.020 be a different

00:50:09.500 person if I

00:50:10.100 was five

00:50:10.500 foot eight

00:50:10.960 I'd probably

00:50:12.000 be a different

00:50:12.420 person if I

00:50:13.100 had totally

00:50:13.880 different facial

00:50:14.480 features

00:50:15.040 you know

00:50:16.060 I think it's

00:50:17.000 a mistake

00:50:17.780 to try and

00:50:18.880 say that

00:50:19.380 nothing is to

00:50:20.400 do with our

00:50:20.880 biology which

00:50:21.740 then would

00:50:22.180 lead you to

00:50:23.140 the female

00:50:23.700 brain

00:50:24.200 but also

00:50:26.800 I have this

00:50:27.820 feeling

00:50:28.440 about instinct

00:50:29.260 and it

00:50:30.060 comes back

00:50:30.600 to the

00:50:30.900 fact that

00:50:31.540 I think

00:50:32.840 I'm informed

00:50:33.440 not just

00:50:33.960 by my own

00:50:34.540 experiences

00:50:35.120 but by the

00:50:35.800 experience and

00:50:36.560 legacy of

00:50:37.500 people that

00:50:38.080 have come

00:50:38.340 before me

00:50:38.920 and not in

00:50:39.720 some weird

00:50:40.460 kind of

00:50:41.740 sense

00:50:43.140 not in that

00:50:44.440 past life

00:50:45.340 kind of

00:50:46.100 proper memory

00:50:46.980 but in the

00:50:47.520 way that

00:50:47.880 humans know

00:50:48.740 to clench

00:50:49.900 their fists

00:50:50.600 when they're

00:50:52.300 tiny babies

00:50:52.980 you know if

00:50:53.320 you do that

00:50:53.700 to a baby

00:50:54.140 they'll clench

00:50:54.800 their fist

00:50:55.260 these little

00:50:56.020 puppies I've

00:50:56.540 got at home

00:50:56.920 at the moment

00:50:57.400 they basically

00:50:58.540 swim around

00:50:59.420 and they know

00:51:00.500 how to root

00:51:01.120 to make sure

00:51:01.600 that they can

00:51:02.020 feed

00:51:02.320 and so to

00:51:03.380 say that

00:51:03.780 we're not

00:51:04.160 born with

00:51:04.840 other legacy

00:51:05.720 of behaviours

00:51:06.580 that may be

00:51:07.300 directly correlated

00:51:08.420 with our sex

00:51:09.280 I don't think

00:51:10.660 that's like the

00:51:11.400 most preposterous

00:51:12.280 idea I've ever

00:51:13.200 had

00:51:13.500 no I don't

00:51:14.320 think it is

00:51:14.860 and I don't

00:51:16.120 want to be in

00:51:16.660 this place

00:51:17.080 I don't want

00:51:17.480 to be this

00:51:17.880 person going

00:51:18.500 yeah we need

00:51:19.020 to go

00:51:19.300 or whatever

00:51:19.940 but here's

00:51:21.720 another question

00:51:22.320 which is difficult

00:51:23.140 for I think

00:51:23.860 for feminism

00:51:24.680 and you're

00:51:25.180 not part

00:51:26.020 of that

00:51:26.320 movement

00:51:26.700 but what

00:51:28.440 about gender

00:51:28.980 stereotypes

00:51:29.660 right

00:51:30.300 because how

00:51:32.980 much of that

00:51:33.560 is biological

00:51:34.260 right

00:51:35.280 how much

00:51:36.080 of that

00:51:36.540 ought to

00:51:37.440 be encouraged

00:51:38.240 to facilitate

00:51:39.340 a normal

00:51:40.500 quote unquote

00:51:41.080 woman or a

00:51:41.900 normal quote

00:51:42.460 unquote man

00:51:43.040 functioning in

00:51:44.080 society

00:51:44.520 because if

00:51:45.840 you encourage

00:51:46.580 men to

00:51:47.100 behave in

00:51:47.680 ways that

00:51:49.560 are suitable

00:51:50.420 for men

00:51:51.180 in the society

00:51:52.060 that you exist

00:51:52.780 you're making

00:51:53.580 their life

00:51:54.000 easier

00:51:54.440 right

00:51:55.200 if you

00:51:55.980 encourage

00:51:56.440 women to

00:51:57.440 behave in

00:51:57.960 ways that

00:51:59.120 help them

00:52:00.660 navigate the

00:52:01.480 society that

00:52:02.120 we live in

00:52:02.680 well you are

00:52:03.360 indoctrinating them

00:52:04.300 with certain

00:52:04.820 ideas about

00:52:05.540 right and wrong

00:52:06.240 and how do you

00:52:06.760 behave and what

00:52:07.860 you wear sometimes

00:52:08.940 and all of that

00:52:09.600 stuff do we

00:52:11.200 throw all of that

00:52:11.840 out of the window

00:52:12.340 or do we need

00:52:13.000 a bit of that

00:52:13.560 that's the question

00:52:15.300 isn't it

00:52:15.840 well I'm a

00:52:16.440 heterosexual woman

00:52:17.240 so I quite like

00:52:18.320 to be well I

00:52:20.180 don't know if I

00:52:21.060 do that anymore

00:52:21.700 but I quite like

00:52:22.700 to be attracted

00:52:23.260 to the opposite

00:52:23.840 sex and to

00:52:25.420 say there's

00:52:27.640 loads of modern

00:52:28.280 things that people

00:52:29.000 say is a proof

00:52:29.860 that they're men

00:52:30.660 and women and

00:52:31.320 it's biological

00:52:32.120 but loads of

00:52:33.300 the things that

00:52:33.780 they would use

00:52:34.360 to prove that

00:52:35.000 then they can't

00:52:36.840 be biological

00:52:37.340 because years

00:52:39.040 and years ago

00:52:39.600 those things

00:52:40.460 didn't exist

00:52:41.200 but do I think

00:52:43.460 my husband and

00:52:44.060 I are fundamentally

00:52:44.960 different yes

00:52:46.080 my hypothalamus

00:52:47.880 when I was

00:52:48.880 pregnant with

00:52:49.340 babies and then

00:52:50.040 had a baby

00:52:50.660 if my baby

00:52:52.500 woke up in

00:52:53.040 the middle

00:52:53.220 of the night

00:52:53.660 I woke up

00:52:54.640 before my baby

00:52:55.620 before I could

00:52:56.180 hear my baby

00:52:56.880 I was awake

00:52:57.520 because I'm

00:52:58.140 somehow connected

00:52:58.920 because I don't

00:52:59.800 know I'm a

00:53:00.660 mammal

00:53:01.020 that's supposed

00:53:02.280 to keep their

00:53:02.860 baby alive

00:53:03.520 and my husband's

00:53:04.760 role he always

00:53:05.720 felt was not

00:53:06.860 just to care

00:53:07.320 for our children

00:53:07.800 but to make

00:53:08.260 sure I was

00:53:08.760 all right so

00:53:09.260 I could care

00:53:09.780 for our children

00:53:10.400 which makes

00:53:12.080 me a trad

00:53:12.640 wife

00:53:13.120 in short

00:53:15.860 supply

00:53:16.320 and in high

00:53:16.920 demand

00:53:17.320 I know

00:53:17.980 it's so

00:53:18.400 weird

00:53:18.720 but he also

00:53:20.980 is in it

00:53:21.540 we are in a

00:53:22.300 very fortuitous

00:53:23.140 position that I

00:53:23.840 could stay home

00:53:24.500 and look after

00:53:24.920 my children

00:53:25.400 which is not

00:53:25.960 something that

00:53:26.540 many women

00:53:26.940 can do

00:53:27.380 and I would

00:53:28.200 like to see

00:53:28.780 more women

00:53:29.600 have a genuine

00:53:30.320 choice to do

00:53:31.080 that if they

00:53:31.600 wish

00:53:31.900 I don't see

00:53:32.700 the reason

00:53:33.060 that we should

00:53:33.540 send a woman

00:53:34.040 back to Tesco's

00:53:35.040 to sack shelves

00:53:36.200 to pay somebody

00:53:38.020 else crappy wages

00:53:39.140 to look after

00:53:39.720 her child

00:53:40.260 while she earns

00:53:41.240 crappy wages

00:53:42.060 I think the

00:53:42.460 government

00:53:42.660 should pay

00:53:43.020 women

00:53:43.300 to stay

00:53:44.080 at home

00:53:44.420 or tax

00:53:45.060 breaks

00:53:45.460 somehow

00:53:45.880 something

00:53:46.500 I certainly

00:53:48.060 don't want

00:53:48.420 the state

00:53:48.760 any more

00:53:49.140 involved

00:53:49.460 than it

00:53:49.680 is

00:53:50.360 I'm a little

00:53:53.380 bit different

00:53:54.000 what I'm

00:53:55.140 getting at

00:53:55.800 is

00:53:56.180 if we're

00:53:58.340 talking about

00:53:59.100 sort of like

00:53:59.920 the pendulum

00:54:00.540 not swinging

00:54:01.240 too far

00:54:01.940 I wonder

00:54:03.380 whether

00:54:03.880 an element

00:54:04.940 of gender

00:54:05.580 stereotype

00:54:06.200 teaching children

00:54:07.480 well you're a

00:54:08.180 boy this is

00:54:08.700 what you do

00:54:09.080 you're a girl

00:54:09.600 this is how

00:54:10.020 you behave

00:54:10.520 right

00:54:10.840 I mean

00:54:12.780 is that

00:54:13.340 entirely

00:54:13.900 not

00:54:14.360 wrong

00:54:15.420 and evil

00:54:15.960 and useless

00:54:16.600 I mean

00:54:17.140 give you an

00:54:17.780 example

00:54:18.040 right

00:54:18.300 boys don't

00:54:19.240 cry

00:54:19.560 right

00:54:20.420 and we

00:54:20.980 now talk

00:54:21.580 about how

00:54:21.980 oh men

00:54:22.540 are all

00:54:22.880 they've got

00:54:23.360 all these

00:54:23.680 feelings

00:54:24.100 that they're

00:54:24.480 not

00:54:24.620 I don't

00:54:25.440 know that

00:54:25.680 it's good

00:54:25.940 for men

00:54:26.240 to be

00:54:26.500 letting out

00:54:26.860 all their

00:54:27.180 feelings

00:54:27.460 I don't

00:54:27.900 know that

00:54:28.160 society

00:54:28.620 responds

00:54:29.220 to men

00:54:29.620 letting out

00:54:30.200 all their

00:54:30.560 feelings

00:54:30.880 in a way

00:54:31.620 that makes

00:54:33.220 it a good

00:54:33.700 idea for

00:54:34.300 men to do

00:54:34.800 that

00:54:35.040 I don't

00:54:35.600 know that

00:54:35.880 men's

00:54:36.160 biology

00:54:36.620 is necessarily

00:54:37.380 geared towards

00:54:38.460 that way

00:54:39.320 of releasing

00:54:39.840 emotion

00:54:40.300 men do

00:54:40.940 different

00:54:41.300 things to

00:54:41.840 deal with

00:54:42.320 and process

00:54:43.180 emotion

00:54:43.720 so the

00:54:45.180 idea that

00:54:45.860 you talked

00:54:46.360 about this

00:54:46.840 we're all

00:54:47.300 the same

00:54:47.860 I don't

00:54:48.620 know that

00:54:49.100 we're all

00:54:49.640 the same

00:54:49.960 even on

00:54:50.340 that level

00:54:50.880 even on

00:54:51.360 the level

00:54:51.760 of cultural

00:54:52.840 teaching

00:54:53.400 of how

00:54:54.420 you behave

00:54:55.160 and how

00:54:55.600 you behave

00:54:56.140 is that

00:54:57.980 you know

00:54:58.400 because as

00:54:59.040 you say

00:54:59.340 there was a

00:55:00.020 point where

00:55:00.340 feminism was

00:55:00.880 advocating

00:55:01.420 well that's

00:55:02.300 all just

00:55:02.800 wrong and

00:55:03.740 bad and

00:55:04.220 we just

00:55:04.480 need to

00:55:04.860 everyone's a

00:55:05.660 blank slate

00:55:06.280 are we

00:55:07.040 oh god

00:55:08.960 I don't

00:55:09.340 know I

00:55:09.820 like to

00:55:10.280 think that

00:55:11.080 my kids

00:55:12.140 were allowed

00:55:12.680 to play

00:55:14.740 with whatever

00:55:15.240 they wanted

00:55:15.840 my daughter's

00:55:18.960 probably the

00:55:19.360 least likely

00:55:19.880 to have

00:55:20.800 cried up

00:55:21.860 to the age

00:55:22.300 of about

00:55:22.740 seven well

00:55:23.460 even now

00:55:24.080 and I don't

00:55:25.060 cry very much

00:55:25.800 either

00:55:26.300 I don't imagine

00:55:27.140 you do

00:55:27.480 I'm a little

00:55:29.040 bit I do

00:55:29.740 angry

00:55:30.240 but I

00:55:31.820 just don't

00:55:32.440 cry very

00:55:32.840 much and

00:55:33.320 I don't

00:55:35.320 know if

00:55:35.560 anybody should

00:55:36.420 be crying

00:55:37.040 a lot to

00:55:37.500 be honest

00:55:38.000 but I do

00:55:40.600 think that

00:55:41.220 the light

00:55:41.800 and shade

00:55:42.620 of male

00:55:43.700 and female

00:55:44.460 I think it

00:55:46.040 complements

00:55:46.820 you know

00:55:48.220 my husband

00:55:49.040 couldn't fall

00:55:49.660 apart when I

00:55:50.520 just had a

00:55:50.980 baby I

00:55:51.840 probably had

00:55:52.420 to fall

00:55:52.780 apart a

00:55:53.260 little bit

00:55:53.740 when I

00:55:54.620 just had a

00:55:55.040 baby because

00:55:55.540 I was

00:55:55.880 very very

00:55:57.540 very tired

00:55:58.500 and so

00:56:00.580 he needed

00:56:01.060 to be

00:56:01.420 strong

00:56:01.880 there have

00:56:02.500 been times

00:56:03.020 when he's

00:56:03.500 had a

00:56:04.340 couple of

00:56:04.640 issues or

00:56:05.020 whatever but

00:56:05.560 it wouldn't

00:56:08.020 be particularly

00:56:08.680 attractive would

00:56:09.440 it if he sat

00:56:10.460 at the kitchen

00:56:10.940 table crying

00:56:12.440 every day

00:56:12.880 having a

00:56:13.180 breakdown

00:56:13.500 that's my

00:56:14.800 point

00:56:15.120 I'm not

00:56:17.560 supposed to

00:56:18.040 have said

00:56:18.400 that obviously

00:56:19.140 I hate being

00:56:20.060 the guy

00:56:20.660 who's like

00:56:21.400 actually

00:56:22.060 things were

00:56:22.760 I don't want

00:56:23.960 to be in

00:56:24.300 this position

00:56:24.800 but on that

00:56:25.900 hand like I

00:56:26.760 said the

00:56:27.400 entirety of

00:56:28.060 the culture

00:56:28.460 war can be

00:56:29.020 summed up

00:56:29.500 by that

00:56:29.900 meme where

00:56:30.700 you've got

00:56:31.240 like a

00:56:32.420 normal person

00:56:33.180 and one of

00:56:33.620 these like

00:56:34.020 pink haired

00:56:34.600 weirdos and

00:56:35.700 the pink haired

00:56:36.220 weirdo says

00:56:36.840 to the normal

00:56:37.320 person who

00:56:37.940 radicalised you

00:56:38.860 and the normal

00:56:39.400 person says

00:56:40.080 you

00:56:40.700 right to me

00:56:42.300 that is the

00:56:42.800 entire point

00:56:43.780 there's the

00:56:44.300 entire core

00:56:45.320 of the

00:56:45.660 culture war

00:56:46.160 it's normal

00:56:47.220 people having

00:56:47.940 this shit

00:56:48.480 pushed on

00:56:49.060 them that

00:56:49.920 doesn't make

00:56:50.400 any sense

00:56:50.880 it doesn't

00:56:51.320 work it's

00:56:51.700 not connected

00:56:52.120 to reality

00:56:52.780 it's impractical

00:56:53.640 and it's

00:56:54.220 hurting people

00:56:54.840 the backlash

00:56:55.500 is not going

00:56:56.200 to be nice

00:56:56.660 and that's

00:56:57.140 my worry

00:56:57.620 when do

00:56:59.260 you think

00:56:59.440 that's going

00:56:59.780 to happen

00:57:00.100 and what

00:57:01.800 is it going

00:57:02.140 to look

00:57:02.380 like

00:57:02.700 well I

00:57:03.660 think we

00:57:03.920 saw a little

00:57:04.380 bit in the

00:57:04.880 football stadium

00:57:05.480 didn't we

00:57:05.940 when they

00:57:06.440 started like

00:57:07.780 no we're not

00:57:08.640 going to have

00:57:09.020 you kneeling

00:57:09.660 like we're

00:57:10.300 not racist

00:57:10.800 we've solved

00:57:12.500 we've solved

00:57:12.520 that

00:57:12.960 like you know

00:57:14.580 so I mean

00:57:16.140 maybe there

00:57:16.500 still is racism

00:57:17.260 in football

00:57:17.740 I don't go

00:57:18.240 to football

00:57:18.620 matches

00:57:18.940 I don't

00:57:19.400 know

00:57:19.620 but I

00:57:20.020 can't imagine

00:57:20.700 that too

00:57:21.300 many people

00:57:21.700 have much

00:57:22.180 tolerance

00:57:22.720 for racial

00:57:23.660 abuse

00:57:24.820 in the

00:57:25.800 stands

00:57:26.140 so I think

00:57:27.580 it's coming

00:57:28.080 I think people

00:57:29.160 are really

00:57:29.660 beginning to

00:57:30.220 have enough

00:57:30.720 but I think

00:57:32.180 it's going to

00:57:32.460 get so much

00:57:32.940 worse

00:57:33.420 before that

00:57:34.300 backlash

00:57:34.680 comes

00:57:35.300 and I think

00:57:37.500 people will

00:57:37.940 start joining

00:57:38.760 people will

00:57:39.400 start all the

00:57:40.280 things that

00:57:40.640 we're supposed

00:57:41.040 to fear

00:57:41.460 we're supposed

00:57:41.860 to think

00:57:42.200 the biggest

00:57:42.640 threat in

00:57:43.000 this country

00:57:43.460 is the

00:57:44.220 far right

00:57:44.840 I mean

00:57:45.680 I've yet

00:57:46.180 to really

00:57:46.600 see them

00:57:47.140 for these

00:57:48.000 remarkably

00:57:48.640 visible

00:57:49.200 powerful

00:57:49.820 men

00:57:50.820 that are

00:57:52.540 patrolling

00:57:52.980 our streets

00:57:53.620 I don't

00:57:54.100 think that

00:57:54.660 is the

00:57:55.280 biggest

00:57:55.540 threat

00:57:55.980 to this

00:57:56.740 country

00:57:57.000 I think

00:57:57.240 the biggest

00:57:57.540 threat

00:57:57.780 is lies

00:57:58.600 and dishonesty

00:57:59.880 and a

00:58:00.900 lack of

00:58:01.340 reality

00:58:01.840 or a lack

00:58:02.720 of

00:58:03.000 people basically

00:58:04.180 are throwing

00:58:04.800 water in

00:58:05.260 your face

00:58:05.600 and going

00:58:05.960 you're

00:58:06.740 completely

00:58:07.080 dry

00:58:07.660 what are

00:58:08.340 you talking

00:58:08.680 about

00:58:09.060 wiping

00:58:09.960 water

00:58:12.280 do you

00:58:12.980 think that

00:58:13.380 this is

00:58:13.720 going to

00:58:13.900 be the

00:58:14.140 issue

00:58:14.340 that breaks

00:58:14.820 the whole

00:58:15.080 culture war

00:58:15.740 well the

00:58:16.680 trans stuff

00:58:17.460 possibly

00:58:18.540 because it

00:58:19.220 is just

00:58:20.720 in your

00:58:21.480 face untrue

00:58:22.300 like as

00:58:23.960 a as a

00:58:24.700 white person

00:58:25.480 I probably

00:58:28.480 can't speak

00:58:30.300 to what

00:58:32.500 levels of

00:58:33.220 racism

00:58:33.660 really happen

00:58:34.700 on a

00:58:34.980 daily

00:58:35.220 basis

00:58:35.760 because it's

00:58:36.780 very likely

00:58:37.560 that I'm

00:58:38.160 not going

00:58:38.360 to see

00:58:38.620 them

00:58:38.800 and I'm

00:58:39.080 not going

00:58:39.280 to hear

00:58:39.520 them

00:58:39.720 so somebody

00:58:40.360 could have

00:58:41.160 two points

00:58:41.900 of view

00:58:42.300 and they

00:58:43.260 could both

00:58:43.740 be telling

00:58:44.280 exactly what

00:58:45.540 is happening

00:58:46.000 in their

00:58:46.320 lives

00:58:46.760 and they

00:58:47.520 could be

00:58:47.860 polar

00:58:48.260 opposites

00:58:48.840 but both

00:58:49.460 would be

00:58:49.740 true

00:58:50.060 yeah

00:58:50.480 men can be

00:58:53.120 women

00:58:53.420 women can

00:58:53.920 be men

00:58:54.380 that's

00:58:55.120 it's either

00:58:55.620 true

00:58:56.060 or it's

00:58:56.780 not true

00:58:57.260 there are

00:58:57.840 no points

00:58:58.360 of view

00:58:58.600 there's no

00:58:59.040 two points

00:58:59.600 of view

00:58:59.920 on that

00:59:00.240 where both

00:59:00.700 people are

00:59:01.580 telling the

00:59:02.000 truth

00:59:02.300 and I

00:59:03.360 think that's

00:59:03.960 the fundamental

00:59:04.620 difference

00:59:05.160 between almost

00:59:06.280 any of the

00:59:06.960 other cancelling

00:59:07.960 culture war

00:59:09.400 stuff going

00:59:09.960 on

00:59:10.200 and where do

00:59:11.060 you stand on

00:59:11.580 this whole idea

00:59:12.160 that sex and

00:59:12.860 gender are

00:59:13.320 separate

00:59:13.700 that sex is

00:59:14.700 one thing

00:59:15.160 and gender

00:59:15.600 is another

00:59:16.060 altogether

00:59:16.860 well I think

00:59:17.500 gender is a

00:59:18.260 big fat

00:59:18.820 mistake to

00:59:19.480 even bring

00:59:20.640 it into the

00:59:21.540 world

00:59:21.880 even to give

00:59:23.440 birth to that

00:59:24.080 word is

00:59:25.040 it just is the

00:59:26.620 beginning of

00:59:27.320 such a load

00:59:28.520 of nonsense

00:59:29.020 so I

00:59:31.160 think there

00:59:32.200 is biological

00:59:32.920 sex and I

00:59:34.060 think there

00:59:34.420 are stereotypes

00:59:35.060 and I think

00:59:35.820 there are sex

00:59:36.440 roles and I

00:59:37.380 think there

00:59:37.780 are lots of

00:59:38.400 things associated

00:59:39.260 with me being

00:59:39.980 female and

00:59:41.320 you guys being

00:59:42.040 male

00:59:42.420 the idea that

00:59:45.100 gender exists

00:59:46.380 somewhere that

00:59:47.780 isn't dependent

00:59:48.480 on those things

00:59:49.360 is a stupid

00:59:51.720 stupid argument

00:59:53.260 made up by

00:59:54.320 feminists

00:59:55.100 made up by

00:59:57.080 some people

00:59:58.020 in universities

00:59:59.880 but yeah

01:00:01.680 feminist theory

01:00:02.540 that sort of

01:00:03.120 started talking

01:00:03.820 about that

01:00:04.320 so you could

01:00:04.840 basically take

01:00:07.920 a person's

01:00:09.620 I don't know

01:00:11.500 what is it

01:00:11.980 I mean it's

01:00:12.480 kind of religious

01:00:13.180 isn't it

01:00:13.780 it's

01:00:14.500 so one of my

01:00:16.620 kids was saying

01:00:17.040 the other day

01:00:17.540 sorry I'm just

01:00:18.460 going

01:00:18.660 one of my

01:00:19.680 kids said

01:00:19.960 the other day

01:00:20.480 about somebody

01:00:22.520 who identified

01:00:23.220 and I said

01:00:23.740 well you either

01:00:24.100 have to believe

01:00:24.600 two things

01:00:25.240 you either have

01:00:26.440 to believe

01:00:26.800 that gender

01:00:27.400 is some

01:00:28.980 unquantifiable

01:00:30.120 metaphysical

01:00:32.520 non-existent

01:00:33.640 can't touch it

01:00:34.660 thing

01:00:35.520 that exists

01:00:36.380 in every human

01:00:37.140 like a soul

01:00:38.400 or you have

01:00:40.120 to believe

01:00:40.540 that the code

01:00:41.200 of DNA

01:00:41.640 did every

01:00:42.460 single bit

01:00:43.120 right

01:00:43.420 that did

01:00:44.380 my female

01:00:45.360 body right

01:00:46.160 and then when

01:00:46.740 it got to

01:00:47.140 my brain

01:00:47.540 it went

01:00:47.820 oh I think

01:00:49.440 I'm just gonna

01:00:50.300 put a male

01:00:51.840 one here

01:00:52.800 and then

01:00:53.460 builds the

01:00:53.840 rest of

01:00:54.120 my body

01:00:54.440 around it

01:00:54.980 those two

01:00:56.280 things are

01:00:56.640 the only

01:00:56.960 thing that

01:00:57.320 make gender

01:00:58.020 a remotely

01:00:59.260 possible

01:01:00.200 thing

01:01:00.820 and I think

01:01:01.920 both are

01:01:02.320 nonsense

01:01:02.820 and that's

01:01:04.760 gonna trigger

01:01:05.160 a few people

01:01:05.880 it's such a

01:01:11.420 weird place

01:01:12.420 that we're

01:01:13.160 in

01:01:13.340 I don't

01:01:13.960 really know

01:01:14.380 what to

01:01:14.720 say

01:01:14.860 I just

01:01:15.160 find it

01:01:15.580 all

01:01:15.840 incredibly

01:01:16.660 weird

01:01:17.160 and I

01:01:19.780 see these

01:01:20.460 discussions

01:01:20.980 and Mumsnet

01:01:22.340 love to

01:01:22.780 talk about

01:01:23.420 us

01:01:23.860 and us

01:01:24.680 having these

01:01:25.220 conversations

01:01:25.780 and they

01:01:26.180 get this

01:01:26.680 and they

01:01:26.920 don't get

01:01:27.260 this

01:01:27.520 and are

01:01:27.860 they

01:01:27.980 allies

01:01:28.320 I don't

01:01:29.520 care

01:01:29.840 I care

01:01:30.380 about the

01:01:30.760 truth

01:01:31.120 I care

01:01:32.080 about the

01:01:32.800 truth

01:01:33.100 right

01:01:33.620 and the

01:01:34.320 truth is

01:01:34.880 just because

01:01:35.700 you uttered

01:01:36.320 an incantation

01:01:37.200 that does

01:01:38.300 not change

01:01:39.000 who you are

01:01:39.560 biologically

01:01:40.180 it fucking

01:01:41.020 doesn't

01:01:42.140 it doesn't

01:01:42.900 right

01:01:43.400 and doesn't

01:01:44.100 make me an

01:01:44.540 ally or an

01:01:45.240 enemy or

01:01:45.740 anything

01:01:46.040 and it

01:01:46.440 doesn't

01:01:46.680 mean that

01:01:46.940 I don't

01:01:47.200 care about

01:01:47.820 people

01:01:48.160 and I'm

01:01:48.480 not

01:01:48.620 compassionate

01:01:49.100 towards them

01:01:49.720 and I

01:01:49.940 don't want

01:01:50.260 them to be

01:01:50.720 included

01:01:51.600 in as much

01:01:52.360 as they

01:01:52.660 can be

01:01:53.180 I just

01:01:54.420 don't want

01:01:54.800 to lie

01:01:55.220 I don't

01:01:56.360 want to

01:01:56.720 lie

01:01:56.980 and I

01:01:58.300 think a lot

01:01:58.720 of people

01:01:59.040 are starting

01:01:59.420 to feel

01:01:59.860 that way

01:02:00.280 that increasingly

01:02:01.280 living in

01:02:02.000 society now

01:02:03.000 requires you

01:02:04.340 to lie

01:02:04.960 on a daily

01:02:06.080 basis

01:02:06.520 and to

01:02:07.360 accept things

01:02:08.120 that you

01:02:08.620 shouldn't

01:02:09.620 have to

01:02:10.100 accept

01:02:10.500 you know

01:02:11.340 it's very

01:02:13.480 frustrating

01:02:13.980 because I

01:02:14.760 really don't

01:02:15.640 want to be

01:02:15.960 in this

01:02:16.200 position

01:02:16.560 I like

01:02:18.920 to think

01:02:19.300 of myself

01:02:19.820 as this

01:02:20.280 hey

01:02:20.520 everybody

01:02:20.940 do what

01:02:21.340 you want

01:02:21.720 I'm

01:02:21.960 liberal

01:02:22.380 you know

01:02:22.980 in the

01:02:23.660 actual

01:02:24.260 meaning

01:02:24.700 of the

01:02:25.000 word

01:02:25.140 liberal

01:02:25.460 right

01:02:25.960 well

01:02:26.540 apparently

01:02:26.880 I'm not

01:02:27.200 anymore

01:02:27.500 I'm a bigot

01:02:28.620 just like you

01:02:29.200 well I think

01:02:30.300 you probably

01:02:30.640 are

01:02:31.080 liberal

01:02:32.240 I think

01:02:33.220 they're the

01:02:33.700 bigots

01:02:34.040 aren't they

01:02:34.460 to insist

01:02:35.380 to enforce

01:02:36.300 an ideology

01:02:36.920 on somebody

01:02:37.720 is pretty

01:02:39.000 crappy

01:02:39.860 I mean

01:02:40.760 like the

01:02:41.620 euphemism

01:02:42.080 goes even

01:02:43.020 through to

01:02:43.920 what is a

01:02:45.620 other

01:02:45.860 now we've

01:02:46.480 got the

01:02:46.740 rise of

01:02:47.180 surrogacy

01:02:47.680 as if

01:02:48.040 that's a

01:02:48.460 gay human

01:02:49.160 right

01:02:49.540 and gay

01:02:50.920 men in

01:02:51.560 surrogacy

01:02:52.040 circles are

01:02:52.620 just called

01:02:53.020 infertile

01:02:53.580 because two

01:02:54.080 men can't

01:02:55.000 have a baby

01:02:55.480 together

01:02:55.860 so they're

01:02:56.660 now called

01:02:57.160 infertile

01:02:58.060 no

01:02:58.860 they're just

01:03:00.060 men

01:03:00.400 and so

01:03:02.220 surrogacy is

01:03:03.040 massively on the

01:03:03.900 uprise and the

01:03:04.700 changing of

01:03:05.420 language in those

01:03:06.100 laws is

01:03:07.040 frightening as

01:03:07.700 hell

01:03:07.980 where they

01:03:08.760 even in the

01:03:10.100 trans thing

01:03:10.580 they call people

01:03:11.140 young people

01:03:11.680 they don't call

01:03:12.240 them children

01:03:12.820 right

01:03:13.360 and so

01:03:14.140 just that

01:03:14.580 little switcheroo

01:03:15.460 you're a

01:03:15.860 teacher

01:03:16.240 we're a

01:03:17.620 teacher

01:03:17.900 but just

01:03:19.480 even that

01:03:19.920 little switch

01:03:20.600 of talking

01:03:21.140 about young

01:03:21.720 people instead

01:03:22.520 of children

01:03:23.200 I think

01:03:23.740 totally changes

01:03:24.900 the way we

01:03:26.080 can talk

01:03:26.760 about young

01:03:27.900 people

01:03:28.300 children

01:03:29.420 agency

01:03:30.300 you can't

01:03:30.920 say child

01:03:31.660 has agency

01:03:32.560 and autonomy

01:03:33.140 to make

01:03:34.000 these decisions

01:03:34.620 and consent

01:03:35.080 as soon as you

01:03:35.560 say something

01:03:35.960 like a child

01:03:36.760 can consent

01:03:37.560 you're just

01:03:38.540 really on a

01:03:40.000 quick direct

01:03:40.820 line to

01:03:41.520 any of the

01:03:43.000 famous paedophiles

01:03:43.840 we could think

01:03:44.300 about

01:03:44.620 right

01:03:45.080 absolutely

01:03:46.400 absolutely

01:03:47.460 it's like

01:03:47.880 if children

01:03:48.400 can consent

01:03:49.100 to taking

01:03:49.820 a vaccine

01:03:50.340 against their

01:03:50.860 parents wishes

01:03:51.460 if they consent

01:03:52.200 to taking

01:03:52.840 puberty blockers

01:03:54.220 what else are

01:03:55.220 they going to be

01:03:55.740 able to consent

01:03:56.360 to very soon

01:03:57.380 all right

01:03:58.560 look we haven't

01:03:59.060 had enough

01:03:59.400 conflict in this

01:04:00.080 one

01:04:00.320 the last thing

01:04:01.420 insult posy

01:04:02.300 go on

01:04:02.560 yeah

01:04:02.720 no

01:04:03.300 the one

01:04:05.240 I'm a feminist

01:04:05.860 no

01:04:06.140 the one

01:04:07.520 question

01:04:07.940 you're the worst

01:04:08.420 yeah exactly

01:04:09.380 I was going to say

01:04:10.240 he's going to grab

01:04:10.900 you after this

01:04:11.540 don't do that

01:04:12.460 no

01:04:12.780 no absolutely

01:04:13.600 not

01:04:13.920 I'm not

01:04:14.680 left wing

01:04:15.080 right okay

01:04:15.740 so here's the thing

01:04:17.100 what does that say

01:04:18.600 about that

01:04:19.800 what does that say

01:04:21.300 what does this

01:04:22.240 conversation say

01:04:23.340 about a society

01:04:24.220 as a whole

01:04:25.400 god

01:04:28.060 I think it says

01:04:30.220 that we are

01:04:30.720 divorcing really

01:04:31.940 quickly from reality

01:04:33.300 really quickly

01:04:35.120 and I think

01:04:36.600 it's quite

01:04:37.140 dangerous

01:04:38.020 all the

01:04:38.520 tangible places

01:04:39.440 you could

01:04:39.880 have a nice

01:04:40.940 foothold

01:04:41.620 they're disappearing

01:04:44.080 so biological

01:04:45.360 sex

01:04:46.060 what parentage

01:04:47.780 might be

01:04:48.640 you know

01:04:50.460 it's all this

01:04:52.360 surface level

01:04:53.100 wants and

01:04:53.760 desires

01:04:54.240 have replaced

01:04:55.100 rights

01:04:56.380 and

01:04:57.540 concrete things

01:04:58.880 that we need

01:04:59.540 to sustain

01:05:00.280 you know

01:05:02.300 most people

01:05:02.820 spend a lot

01:05:03.420 of their time

01:05:04.000 on their phones

01:05:04.800 not talking to

01:05:05.980 people in real

01:05:06.540 life

01:05:06.920 I think the

01:05:07.800 pandemic probably

01:05:08.720 exacerbated that

01:05:09.740 somewhat

01:05:10.120 you know

01:05:12.220 I've hardly

01:05:13.200 heard anybody

01:05:13.920 talk about

01:05:14.800 how horrific

01:05:16.320 it must have

01:05:17.040 been for

01:05:17.600 elderly people

01:05:18.640 it's bad enough

01:05:19.720 for anybody

01:05:20.120 being on their

01:05:20.840 own

01:05:21.100 but for some

01:05:22.480 people they

01:05:22.840 might have

01:05:23.200 spent 18

01:05:24.200 months of

01:05:24.660 their last

01:05:25.120 two years

01:05:25.620 on earth

01:05:26.080 barely seeing

01:05:27.560 anybody or

01:05:28.080 having a

01:05:28.380 conversation

01:05:28.800 on a daily

01:05:29.320 basis

01:05:29.820 and I think

01:05:30.600 that is

01:05:31.040 something that

01:05:31.620 is worth

01:05:32.280 talking about

01:05:32.940 rather than

01:05:34.100 someone's

01:05:34.420 identity

01:05:34.900 so I just

01:05:36.140 I don't know

01:05:37.960 we need to

01:05:38.440 get back

01:05:38.960 to real

01:05:40.360 tangible

01:05:41.480 consequence

01:05:43.380 led

01:05:44.160 sort of

01:05:45.340 society

01:05:45.760 where you can

01:05:46.880 genuinely

01:05:47.560 affect change

01:05:48.740 in your own

01:05:49.540 life

01:05:49.860 I think we've

01:05:50.700 got to a

01:05:51.120 point where

01:05:51.660 in order to

01:05:52.540 be someone

01:05:53.300 you just

01:05:54.760 have to say

01:05:55.480 something

01:05:56.120 whereas it

01:05:56.760 used to be

01:05:57.160 that you'd

01:05:57.460 have to do

01:05:58.080 something

01:05:58.500 you'd have

01:05:58.900 to really

01:05:59.520 do something

01:06:00.120 to be

01:06:00.480 someone

01:06:00.860 that's what

01:06:01.600 people wanted

01:06:02.140 to do

01:06:02.500 even if it

01:06:03.640 was to be

01:06:04.060 the best

01:06:04.400 plumber

01:06:04.780 that anybody

01:06:05.900 had ever

01:06:06.420 come across

01:06:07.500 or write a

01:06:08.040 novel

01:06:08.280 or climb a

01:06:08.980 mountain

01:06:09.280 or whatever

01:06:09.960 it is

01:06:10.480 but now

01:06:11.180 you just

01:06:11.600 have to

01:06:12.020 come out

01:06:12.840 oh I'm

01:06:13.760 genderqueer

01:06:14.380 what does

01:06:14.700 that mean

01:06:15.020 it means

01:06:15.340 once I

01:06:16.300 had a

01:06:16.560 blue fringe

01:06:17.340 that's

01:06:18.600 the be

01:06:19.760 all and

01:06:20.040 end all

01:06:20.400 of my

01:06:20.960 identity

01:06:21.520 that's all

01:06:22.080 I've ever

01:06:22.420 done

01:06:22.760 aren't you

01:06:23.600 stunning and

01:06:24.160 brave

01:06:24.460 oh god

01:06:24.820 you're

01:06:24.980 amazing

01:06:25.420 and on

01:06:28.580 that note

01:06:28.980 Percy thank

01:06:29.720 you so much

01:06:30.400 for coming

01:06:30.820 on the show

01:06:31.300 the one

01:06:31.660 question we

01:06:32.200 always finish

01:06:32.840 before we

01:06:33.380 do our

01:06:34.140 questions for

01:06:34.680 locals is

01:06:35.420 what's the

01:06:35.820 one thing

01:06:36.120 we're not

01:06:36.440 talking about

01:06:37.120 but we

01:06:37.720 really should

01:06:38.180 be

01:06:38.420 well I

01:06:39.440 think in

01:06:40.000 the light

01:06:40.740 of the

01:06:41.500 Sarah

01:06:42.180 Everard

01:06:42.880 murder

01:06:44.260 I think we

01:06:45.700 really do

01:06:46.220 need to

01:06:46.600 talk about

01:06:47.220 what police

01:06:49.420 serving police

01:06:50.420 officers

01:06:50.860 actually get

01:06:52.140 away with

01:06:52.720 and why

01:06:53.560 something like

01:06:54.340 indecent

01:06:54.840 exposure

01:06:55.400 which

01:06:56.160 I'm not

01:06:57.740 even going

01:06:58.000 to say his

01:06:58.240 name

01:06:58.420 which the

01:06:58.800 murdering

01:06:59.280 rapist

01:06:59.820 evil

01:07:00.320 crap

01:07:01.520 man

01:07:02.000 he committed

01:07:03.860 in 2015

01:07:04.660 and how he

01:07:05.320 managed to

01:07:05.800 keep his

01:07:06.120 job

01:07:06.400 so I

01:07:07.480 think we

01:07:07.780 need to

01:07:08.100 look at

01:07:08.620 low level

01:07:10.100 what's called

01:07:11.240 low level

01:07:11.760 sexual assault

01:07:12.640 and how we

01:07:13.720 used to

01:07:14.300 know that

01:07:15.080 that leads

01:07:15.840 can lead

01:07:16.600 can be the

01:07:17.080 first step

01:07:17.800 in some

01:07:19.120 really serious

01:07:20.020 crimes

01:07:20.580 it's a

01:07:22.460 very important

01:07:22.840 point

01:07:23.220 Kelly J

01:07:24.420 Keane

01:07:24.540 thank you

01:07:24.900 so much

01:07:25.180 for coming

01:07:25.480 back

01:07:25.700 we're going

01:07:25.940 to do a

01:07:26.260 couple of

01:07:26.580 questions for

01:07:27.080 locals before

01:07:27.740 we do

01:07:28.220 where are you

01:07:29.220 not yet banned

01:07:29.900 from online

01:07:30.580 that people can

01:07:31.220 find you

01:07:31.660 so many places

01:07:32.540 I can't even

01:07:34.040 sign a change.org

01:07:36.400 petition

01:07:37.240 I'm banned

01:07:37.800 from that

01:07:38.220 so you can

01:07:40.080 find my

01:07:41.760 YouTube channel

01:07:42.620 Kelly J

01:07:43.300 Keane

01:07:43.900 you can find

01:07:44.700 me at

01:07:44.880 standing for

01:07:45.220 women

01:07:45.440 and all of

01:07:46.700 our lovely

01:07:47.540 merchandise is on

01:07:48.980 adult human

01:07:49.980 female.store

01:07:50.980 thanks for

01:07:52.640 coming back

01:07:53.020 and thank you

01:07:53.760 for watching

01:07:54.300 and listening

01:07:54.880 at home

01:07:55.280 we'll see you

01:07:56.000 very soon

01:07:56.500 with another

01:07:56.980 brilliant interview

01:07:57.620 like this one

01:07:58.280 or our show

01:07:59.360 all of them

01:08:00.040 go out at

01:08:00.480 7pm UK time

01:08:01.380 plus if you're

01:08:02.460 on the move

01:08:02.900 and you want

01:08:03.400 your trigonometry

01:08:04.020 on the go

01:08:04.560 it's also

01:08:05.120 available as a

01:08:05.840 podcast

01:08:06.140 take care

01:08:07.260 and see you

01:08:07.880 soon guys

01:08:08.480 we hope you've

01:08:10.880 enjoyed this

01:08:11.540 incredible interview

01:08:12.940 remember to

01:08:13.580 subscribe

01:08:14.060 and hit the

01:08:15.120 bell button

01:08:15.720 so that you

01:08:16.580 never miss

01:08:17.180 another fantastic

01:08:18.400 episode

01:08:18.900 and if you

01:08:19.740 believe that

01:08:20.360 the work we

01:08:21.060 do here

01:08:21.600 at trigonometry

01:08:22.320 is important

01:08:23.160 support us

01:08:24.100 by joining

01:08:24.660 our locals

01:08:25.200 community

01:08:25.720 using the

01:08:26.720 link below

01:08:27.300 up

01:08:30.200 up

01:08:31.900 so

01:08:33.620 I

01:08:34.500 there

01:08:35.000 love

TRIGGERnometry - October 04, 2021

Posie Parker： Trans Women Aren't Women - Part 2

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