TRIGGERnometry - Progressive Activist Speaks Out Against Woke Madness - Brianna Wu

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00:00:27.120 Get tickets at Mirvish.com. 0.99

00:00:30.000 I used to think you were completely full of shit when you talked about cancel culture, 0.99

00:00:35.960 and now they've run this playbook on me. 1.00

00:00:38.020 The fact that the progressive fringe is now standing with the literal fucking terrorists? 1.00

00:00:44.320 Like, what the hell are we thinking? 1.00

00:00:47.040 Look at what we're doing with the trans children debate.

00:00:50.320 What is the progressive left's answer to any parent that has a question on any of that? 1.00

00:00:56.860 It is shut the fuck up. 0.99

00:00:58.140 We've got to move back to science and back to reality. 1.00

00:01:01.760 People perceive progressives as assholes. 1.00

00:01:04.760 A decade ago during Gamergate, people thought the white male gamers were the assholes. 1.00

00:01:09.500 I've got news for you. 1.00

00:01:10.440 Today, it's trans Twitter. 0.86

00:01:12.100 It's socialist Twitter. 0.86

00:01:13.640 It's terrorist sympathizer Twitter.

00:01:15.880 It's us.

00:01:16.480 Brandon, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:20.200 We've been working and listening to you.

00:01:21.320 We've got a bunch of questions to ask you.

00:01:22.680 But first of all, lots of people told you not to come on the show.

00:01:26.680 Oh, my God.

00:01:27.600 I announced this, what was it, two days ago?

00:01:30.280 And my DMs have been nothing. 0.87

00:01:32.140 But people calling you transphobes and Nazis and racists.

00:01:38.560 And I'm always like, can you show me a clip of what they've said to make you feel that way? 0.98

00:01:43.400 It's always the most silly thing.

00:01:46.260 It is, I don't know. 0.93

00:01:47.900 It's like no one else.

00:01:48.140 Just me doing it hitlessly.

00:01:49.580 Yes, exactly that. 0.96

00:01:50.720 Silly stuff like that. 0.97

00:01:51.360 The KKK costume, I think, was a little much. 0.97

00:01:53.780 It was a nice party.

00:01:54.740 What can you say?

00:01:56.080 But anyway, welcome to the show.

00:01:58.100 Thank you for having me.

00:01:59.080 I'm really happy.

00:01:59.420 It's great to have you.

00:01:59.960 I've been following a lot of the things you've been saying recently.

00:02:02.740 And it was very interesting for us to get you on the show to talk about them.

00:02:06.840 Because I don't know if you saw, I wrote an article very shortly after October 7th for the Free Press called The Day the Delusions Died.

00:02:14.640 Wow.

00:02:14.960 And my argument was that I thought that it was no longer possible for a lot of good people on the left to pretend that the extremes of the left were not going off the rails.

00:02:25.680 Yeah.

00:02:25.840 And you are someone who is outright progressive, Democrat progressive, raising money to fight Trump and all the rest of it.

00:02:32.220 My literal job is to get Democrats elected.

00:02:34.760 Right.

00:02:35.240 Like, I'm on the team.

00:02:36.940 Yes, you're on the team.

00:02:38.140 And I see you now being one of the very few people who's willing to stand up against the anti-Semitic extremes on your own side.

00:02:47.040 Not just anti-Semitic, but there's also large elements of anti-whiteness and all sorts of other stuff going on there.

00:02:52.620 So why have you suddenly taken this position?

00:02:55.060 I think the better question is where the hell is everyone else?

00:02:58.240 This is the most obvious moral position in the entire world to take, you know, like, Hamas? 0.98

00:03:05.840 These are not good people.

00:03:07.440 Hezbollah, you know, the Houthis?

00:03:09.020 These are not good people. 1.00

00:03:10.540 So the fact that the progressive fringe is now standing with the literal fucking terrorists? 1.00

00:03:17.060 Like, what the hell are we thinking? 0.99

00:03:19.340 This is not very difficult.

00:03:21.040 So for me, it's really been a realization because there have been so many things over the last decade that I've just shut my mouth about and I've gone along with.

00:03:33.280 And it's really at a point now where it's gut check time.

00:03:36.960 This is principles time.

00:03:38.940 Whose team are you on?

00:03:40.040 Are you on team democracy?

00:03:41.900 Or are you on team burn everything down?

00:03:44.340 And it's been really disillusioning to see just how few people on my own side have principles.

00:03:51.240 I always thought that what we were doing was about making the world better.

00:03:56.020 And it's been very eye-opening to see it's actually about personal power.

00:04:01.180 I'm going to ask you a question that will sort of sound a little bit like an I told you so or anything, but it's not intended in that way.

00:04:07.440 I guess a lot of people who are in our position, Francis and I both always thought of ourselves as liberal and on the left and we worked in a very progressive comedy industry in the UK.

00:04:18.880 And what happened with us is we said what you were saying now six years ago.

00:04:24.160 And we became, you know, Nazi terror. 0.65

00:04:26.300 And to be fair, I was part of the crowd that was shouting you down and calling you those names.

00:04:30.580 I'm sorry.

00:04:31.460 No, no.

00:04:31.800 Well, you weren't shouting me down personally.

00:04:33.420 I'm talking about people like you saying that stuff.

00:04:35.640 Right.

00:04:36.340 So I guess I'm curious what you think is going to happen, first of all, with you now, because it's sort of the way it has happened today is anyone who was willing to challenge that fringe that you're talking about, which is anti-Western, it's anti-male, it's anti-white, it's anti-Jewish, etc., would say what you're saying, what we've been saying for years, and they would immediately become evil, right-wing, Nazi, far-right, etc.

00:05:01.760 And that's kind of it.

00:05:03.680 And no one else would stand up and say anything.

00:05:06.340 That's right.

00:05:06.820 As has happened.

00:05:07.560 So what, like, what are you expecting to happen?

00:05:10.860 Well, I've lost more friends than I can count, right?

00:05:14.000 So I'm very much trying to make new friends.

00:05:16.760 I think the long-term path of this is progressivism and socialism in the United States.

00:05:23.060 It's a cultural dead end.

00:05:24.420 This is not going to go anywhere.

00:05:25.980 There's no universe where, like, progressives win power and manage to get a ton of Congress, you know, congressional seats and pass the legislation that I believe in.

00:05:36.780 It is devolved into exactly as you say, a bunch of culture war nonsense that is not about policy and now literally siding with terrorists.

00:05:46.700 So, you know, what, I've had so many conversations with friends about this because every single progressive activist that I know is really frustrated with this destructive tendency that we have.

00:06:00.140 And all of us are going, what can we do?

00:06:03.200 We, you know, your industry has audience capture where you kind of get into a lane and you can't challenge your own audience because your numbers will drop.

00:06:11.060 I think in the progressive space, there's very much the same thing where there's this tendency to go left-er and left-er and left-er and left-er.

00:06:20.440 And now we're at a point where we can't even say things like trans women don't have periods without people getting really upset about that.

00:06:28.200 Look at my mentions literally right now.

00:06:30.600 So someone's got to stand up and go, this is not right.

00:06:34.660 This is crazy town.

00:06:36.580 I didn't get into progressive politics to talk about trans women having periods. 1.00

00:06:40.700 I got into progressive politics to pass fucking health care. 0.99

00:06:44.760 So we're either serious about course correcting on this cultural dead end or Donald Trump and MAGA are going to win everything. 0.98

00:06:54.620 And the pain for the Democratic Party is going to be extreme.

00:06:58.180 We've got to start talking more to people in the middle.

00:07:01.220 And we need to be reaching out to sane Republicans, in my view.

00:07:04.880 Brianna, don't you think part of the problem is when it comes, look, and both sides suffer to this, suffer with this, but I think the left suffer with this more.

00:07:13.700 It's this purity ritual that you have.

00:07:16.860 You have to, you are not left unless you do A, B, C, D, E, F, G, da, da, da, da, da.

00:07:23.260 And all of a sudden, the moment you challenge one of those tenants, you're out.

00:07:27.260 That's exactly right.

00:07:28.160 I mean, again, look at my mentions.

00:07:30.820 You can see this firsthand.

00:07:32.120 It's not enough to, like, I am as progressive as you can get.

00:07:36.520 Universal health care, I want structural solutions to heal this gaping wound of racism that's existed in our country since slavery.

00:07:45.140 You know, name a progressive policy.

00:07:46.880 I'm very much in favor of it.

00:07:49.540 But when it comes to the optics, right, we've got to start having more serious conversations about how people perceive us. 0.99

00:07:58.200 People perceive progressives as assholes. 0.99

00:08:01.300 That's just the truth. 1.00

00:08:02.940 A decade ago during Gamergate, people thought the white male gamers were the assholes. 1.00

00:08:07.600 I've got news for you. 1.00

00:08:08.580 Today, it's trans Twitter. 0.86

00:08:10.240 It's socialist Twitter. 0.86

00:08:11.740 It's terrorist sympathizer Twitter.

00:08:14.060 It's us.

00:08:15.040 We're the ones doxing people.

00:08:16.740 We're the ones sending death threats.

00:08:18.580 We're canceling everyone in sight. 0.99

00:08:20.880 And at the end of the day, people are not going to trust assholes with power. 0.99

00:08:24.400 I'm sorry. 0.99

00:08:24.900 It's just the truth.

00:08:25.900 And you said at the start of this conversation, something that I found very interesting, you basically said that you had reservations about things that had happened before October 7th.

00:08:37.960 What were those things that you shut your mouth over?

00:08:41.280 And the second part of that question is, do you regret it now, seeing what it's become?

00:08:45.960 I definitely do.

00:08:47.020 So let me give you a really specific example.

00:08:49.140 When I was running for Congress in 2018, you had the Women's March, and you had elements of the Women's March that were out there with this pro-Palestine, anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic nonsense, very anti-Israel and veering into the most anti-Semitic language that you could possibly have.

00:09:08.100 That was wrong.

00:09:10.100 I made the decision to keep my mouth shut, which was a tremendous error in judgment.

00:09:16.280 And because people like me shut up in those years, it kept getting worse, and those seeds kept growing, and now it's basically taken over the entire progressive movement.

00:09:28.240 But I don't know if it can be saved in time.

00:09:30.960 And you can go into any number of issues, like self-ID with trans people or, you know, I remember during Gamergate, you know, there was this expansionist thing that it wasn't enough to talk about the number of women we were hiring in the game industry.

00:09:47.020 You know, now we had to obliterate whiteness as something that we were featuring in games. 0.99

00:09:52.820 And I'm like, it's a little bit extreme, but we'll go along with it.

00:09:56.720 So it was just one more step after another.

00:09:59.900 And now it's 10 years later.

00:10:01.760 Look at where we are.

00:10:02.840 We are completely unelectable.

00:10:04.680 This strategy is failing.

00:10:06.920 I suppose the question that I'm curious about, and I hear people on left and right saying this often, and I don't understand why they say it.

00:10:16.000 And you did say it, so I'm curious to explore this.

00:10:18.940 You called the culture war nonsense.

00:10:20.900 It is.

00:10:21.600 Well, you say it is.

00:10:23.520 And I suppose it depends.

00:10:25.240 What exactly do you mean by that?

00:10:26.780 First of all, before I jump in with my opinion.

00:10:28.260 So we have different jobs, right?

00:10:30.120 You are a public advocate and a public figure, and you have a very specific agenda that is pro-free speech, one I agree with.

00:10:38.300 But my job is different.

00:10:39.980 My job is public policy.

00:10:41.860 My job is to get candidates elected.

00:10:43.840 And my job is to back-channel specific bills to get them passed.

00:10:48.940 So in my view, as soon as you get something like family medical leave and you turn it into a right versus left culture war, you have automatically lost the conversation.

00:11:00.680 Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:11:01.280 No, I agree with you about it.

00:11:02.620 I guess the reason I ask you, Bran, is that the way I see what's going on, and I'll lay it out for you the way that I see it, and you feel free to pick away at it, challenge, whatever.

00:11:11.940 Here's my conception of the culture war as it happens.

00:11:16.160 I feel that there is a determined, organized attempt to undermine the basic building blocks of our civilization.

00:11:25.880 And those of us who are willing to A, see that, and B, say something about it, are called culture warriors.

00:11:33.460 That's what people say about me, for example.

00:11:35.300 Oh, he's just a culture warrior.

00:11:37.480 And my view is our culture is really important.

00:11:40.440 I agree.

00:11:40.780 Our culture is why we are where we are.

00:11:42.400 Our culture is why we are successful.

00:11:44.120 Our culture is why our civilization is rich and powerful and dominant around the world.

00:11:48.740 Sure.

00:11:49.160 Because of our culture.

00:11:50.400 Yeah.

00:11:50.980 So if people on the progressive left, and it is people on the progressive left, there are some on the right now, too, in response, I think.

00:11:58.500 If there are people who want to say that those building blocks are evil or wrong or bad, I think it's important to push back against that and to prevent them from succeeding.

00:12:09.640 Yeah.

00:12:09.720 That's how I see the culture war.

00:12:11.720 So to me, defending our culture isn't nonsense.

00:12:16.120 Does that make sense?

00:12:16.980 So if you're defining it that way, I'm a thousand percent on board with you.

00:12:21.180 I think there's a growing tendency on the progressive side to try to burn everything inside down.

00:12:27.740 They're the mirror image of MAGA.

00:12:29.760 They're accelerationist.

00:12:31.340 They want to burn democracy, like our institutions, our news, everything inside to the ground.

00:12:38.960 They want to burn the idea of gender to the ground itself.

00:12:42.300 This is not a way for a culture to survive.

00:12:45.980 Like, they think the United States is the biggest evil in the world.

00:12:50.700 Like, they just don't.

00:12:52.440 Do they not know what has happened in Syria over the last decade?

00:12:56.200 Like, they just have so little information.

00:12:58.400 So I fully agree with you there. 0.97

00:13:00.540 What I'm saying is, if we are serious about public policy, it makes a lot of sense to stop treating everyone on the other fucking side like they're your enemy. 0.92

00:13:12.440 We've got to get buy-in from more people.

00:13:15.960 I think my theory of change from here is I think there are a lot of Republicans and moderates out there that think that the corporations are screwing over normal people and they will pass, they will stand with you on policies that address their actual lives.

00:13:31.860 They're not going to do that if they've got to pretend all this crazy stuff is true at the same time.

00:13:38.760 We've got to get buy-in from them.

00:13:40.400 I think part of the problem, Bihanna, and look, I'm going to be absolutely honest with you when my frustrations with the left is that I see the crazies on the left.

00:13:50.100 Yeah.

00:13:50.880 And I see the moderates, the people who I would listen to, the people I think, actually, you've got a real point here, particularly when it comes to economics.

00:13:59.080 And then I'd see them not do anything with the nutters over there.

00:14:02.040 And I'm like, well, here's the thing, mate.

00:14:03.840 If you're not going to deal with the nutters over here, how are you going to deal with Apple?

00:14:07.420 And we did this to MAG, right?

00:14:10.820 You had the Nazis marching in Charlottesville.

00:14:13.360 My side said every single Republican is exactly the same as the Nazis marching on Charlottesville.

00:14:19.760 That's exactly how we treated them.

00:14:21.740 Why does the right have to keep their crazies in line? 0.88

00:14:24.480 And we don't have to do that.

00:14:26.160 You're completely right.

00:14:27.420 This is a double standard.

00:14:28.980 I need help pulling this around.

00:14:30.740 And I can't.

00:14:31.520 I can't do this by myself.

00:14:33.020 But I guess my point is, why is there not more backbone within the left to be able to come and stand out?

00:14:41.740 Is it because they're scared of them?

00:14:43.220 Is it because these people actually have a disproportionate sense of power?

00:14:46.600 Is there something else going on?

00:14:48.380 And this is a genuine question on my behalf because I don't understand why.

00:14:52.420 Do you want the real answer or do you want the political answer?

00:14:55.100 I want the real answer. 1.00

00:14:55.640 I used to think you were completely full of shit. 1.00

00:14:58.080 When you talked about cancel culture, I was like, just get over it. 1.00

00:15:01.900 You've got every privilege in the world.

00:15:03.620 And now they've run this playbook on me.

00:15:05.740 I understand what happens when they go after your livelihood and your friends.

00:15:10.040 And they make a price to just speak your mind and stand up to them.

00:15:13.520 These are cultural bullies. 0.82

00:15:14.860 And the truth is, there's every incentive to keep your mouth shut and just let the movement get crazier and crazier.

00:15:21.800 So we have a, this is hard choice time.

00:15:24.820 This is gut check time.

00:15:26.320 We either stand up to these crazies.

00:15:29.760 We get back to basics.

00:15:30.940 That means liberalism in the sense, if you want to make an offensive joke, God bless.

00:15:35.860 That's what the First Amendment is about.

00:15:37.940 We've got to be willing to talk to people we disagree with.

00:15:41.200 We can't just, every time someone has a different opinion than us, load it up with moralistic language.

00:15:48.620 So we win the argument and they're a terrible person and call it a day and never, like, have a discussion about anything.

00:15:55.520 There's no incentive to do this.

00:15:57.720 Look at what's happened to my reputation since October 7th.

00:16:00.720 It's been brutal.

00:16:02.620 Like, I think it's almost a character flaw.

00:16:05.400 But there comes a point, Brianna, where you either let this kind of nonsense continue and you see the decimation of everything that you believe in.

00:16:15.720 Or you stand up.

00:16:17.680 There's got to be a time because you can't keep being supine about these issues and expecting them to go away.

00:16:23.960 I completely agree.

00:16:25.280 Look at what we're doing with the trans children debate.

00:16:28.520 This is such a good example.

00:16:30.300 Okay.

00:16:31.200 Y'all may not agree with me.

00:16:32.600 I think there are some children that need access to health care to transition.

00:16:37.060 I don't think the system is working well now, but I think some need to get through.

00:16:41.420 We need to look at the system and patch the holes.

00:16:43.580 What is the progressive left's answer to any parent that has a question on any of that? 1.00

00:16:50.400 It is shut the fuck up. 0.99

00:16:52.360 It is don't ask those questions. 1.00

00:16:54.340 These questions hurt our feelings.

00:16:55.840 We are talking about public health care policy.

00:16:59.200 We've got to move back to science and back to reality.

00:17:02.800 And I guess, like, from your point of view, what is wrong with progressives that we're not doing this?

00:17:08.920 Why do you think I'm one of, like, five?

00:17:11.160 Well, I think you put your finger on it when you talk about the consequences for you.

00:17:15.620 By the way, this happens on the right increasingly, too.

00:17:17.620 I wrote an article about my critique of – I praised him for some things, but also critiqued his comments about Russia and Ukraine.

00:17:27.500 Tucker Carlson.

00:17:28.160 I wrote an article called Tucker Carlson and the Woke Right.

00:17:30.320 And someone disinvited me from a party there.

00:17:34.000 And you're just going – you're just a mirror image.

00:17:36.260 You don't believe in diversity of opinion.

00:17:38.640 You just want your opinion regurgitated.

00:17:40.660 So tribes generally enforce the whatever rules of the tribe through any means necessary in order to do that.

00:17:48.460 So I understand that.

00:17:49.340 The question I wanted to ask you, I guess, is you mentioned that six years ago or ten years ago – it's one or two questions I want to ask you.

00:18:00.000 People like you would have been criticizing people like us at the time or whatever.

00:18:03.960 That's right.

00:18:04.320 And would have said cancel culture doesn't exist until you personally experienced it.

00:18:09.760 And I've heard that from a lot of people who have the switch that you're going through.

00:18:14.220 What was it back then that drove you to behave in that way?

00:18:18.880 I think I thought that people like you had all the power.

00:18:22.580 And I thought that we had no power.

00:18:24.720 And I thought that it was the way to get to a better world.

00:18:28.520 You know what?

00:18:29.080 We've tried my version of the progressive playbook for ten years, telling comedians, telling jokes we don't like, to shut up.

00:18:36.460 That doesn't work.

00:18:37.780 No.

00:18:38.220 The left has had – like, look at what's happened to feminism. 1.00

00:18:41.880 Do you know how guilty I feel about this?

00:18:44.160 We've lost Roe in the United States in access to abortion. 0.99

00:18:48.680 Feminism should be a very strong public force right now. 1.00

00:18:52.680 And it's not.

00:18:53.660 It's never been weaker.

00:18:54.840 Why is feminism so unappealing to so many people? 1.00

00:18:59.500 It's because rather than talking about real policy that will affect people's lives, like daycare for children or working wages or reproductive health care or access to a gynecologist,

00:19:12.160 we've defined it to these boutique-like luxury nonsense culture war stuff.

00:19:18.840 So normal women are out there going, this is just not relevant to me. 1.00

00:19:22.780 So it's just a – it's a failure.

00:19:25.620 And the other thing feminism did as well is it – feminism is such a broad church. 1.00

00:19:30.700 It's a hard word to use accurately.

00:19:32.720 But once you start trying to convince at least some women that they're supposed to hate men, you're going to lose the audience very quickly because women generally don't hate men.

00:19:41.920 That's right.

00:19:42.420 They want to build a life with a man and have kids and then blah, blah, blah. 1.00

00:19:46.320 I'm fond of my husband.

00:19:47.700 So I agree.

00:19:48.440 As am I, even though I'm not a woman.

00:19:49.820 Second question I wanted to ask you, and this sounds like a therapy session for me and Francis.

00:19:56.220 Go for it.

00:19:56.240 And we've earned it after six years.

00:19:58.020 Yeah, after what you've done.

00:20:00.440 I'm sorry.

00:20:01.240 After six years of – no, but I will tell you the moment I realized that the left stopped caring about reality.

00:20:09.560 That's right.

00:20:09.900 It was 2016 – no, it was 2017.

00:20:13.800 And I saw Steve Bannon go from talk show to talk show to talk show to talk show.

00:20:20.200 And all he did was explain how they won the election.

00:20:24.400 Okay.

00:20:25.360 And nobody listened.

00:20:27.320 Who?

00:20:27.940 Nobody listened to what he was saying. 0.81

00:20:29.840 Because the agenda was the only way these people could win is because they're racist and because they're evil and whatever.

00:20:38.840 And nobody listened to what he was saying.

00:20:40.440 And what he was saying is this country is in deep trouble.

00:20:44.280 This country is a place where people feel so alienated from the economic opportunities that used to be available to them and their families.

00:20:51.940 They feel so alienated from – the general narrative about their country has now become negative, which is why the phrase make America great again works even if you don't like it.

00:21:03.300 And I was listening to what he was saying, not from a perspective of like, oh, I'm so enthusiastic about this guy and his political leader being elected.

00:21:12.200 But from the point of view of like, maybe there's something he's saying, having just won an election that nobody expected him to win, that people on the left need to take into account so that by the time the next election comes around, you've learned the lessons, you're addressing people's concerns, and now you can come in with your message of, you know, how do we make America work for the working person?

00:21:33.700 Like, that's to me the left-wing message, how to get America working for the working person.

00:21:37.760 That's right.

00:21:38.560 We learned all the wrong lessons from the Trump years, right?

00:21:42.700 The correct lesson that the left should have learned from Donald Trump was normal Americans that don't follow politics as closely as people like I do, you know, have five newspaper subscriptions, look at the polls every day, talk to donors, all that kind of stuff.

00:22:00.000 Normal people don't think the system is working for them, and they want to break it if you really want to get down to it.

00:22:06.180 And instead, we took this, we believe this really comforting lie that half the country was lost and not worth talking to, and they were all racists, and they were disposable, and we stopped even imagining a way to live with one another.

00:22:22.480 There's no future for the Democratic Party where we don't get goddamn serious about listening to the people that don't have faith in the system and earning their trust.

00:22:34.660 And so much of that starts with the conversation, and we are failing.

00:22:39.260 This is why Biden is losing.

00:22:41.120 It's not that Biden himself does not stand for this stuff.

00:22:44.140 I actually think he's been a really good president. 0.99

00:22:46.140 But the culture of the Democratic Party is so elitist and arrogant and unwilling to listen to ideas that we don't agree with and treating half the country like they are assholes. 0.98

00:23:01.400 Like, this is not a formula for a democracy to survive. 0.99

00:23:04.760 Do you know, I was reading this.

00:23:06.700 I think it might have been you that said it or came up in conversation that the number one predictor for a marriage failing is not infidelity.

00:23:12.940 It's not arguments.

00:23:14.200 It's none of those things.

00:23:15.240 It's contempt.

00:23:16.520 That's right. 1.00

00:23:17.120 And when I see, and it's not just progressives here, but also progressives in the UK, the contempt that they have for working class people, and let's be blunt about it, particularly in the UK, and I'm sure over here, white working class people, the way they talk about them, the way they address them, they're rednecks, they're stupid, they're racist. 1.00

00:23:36.620 And then they go, oh, why didn't you vote for us? 1.00

00:23:39.380 Like, they're some dumb animal to manipulate. 1.00

00:23:41.840 It's insulting. 1.00

00:23:43.340 So let me tell you what changed my mind on this. 0.93

00:23:45.920 Like, the big reason, the thing that changed my paradigm on this was running for office because it gets you off of fucking Twitter and out there in the real world where you've got to go knock on doors and just talk to normal people. 0.95

00:23:59.800 And it's like, oh, shit, the stuff we're talking about on Twitter is not what they believe. 0.87

00:24:04.920 So I think there's, I think there is a lot of theory crafting in progressive spaces where they've got a lot of academic ideas about how elections and how power works. 0.99

00:24:17.060 And I think it's fundamentally divorced from reality.

00:24:20.000 Now, to be fair, the Democratic Party has been really poor at bringing younger people in and showing them how our system works, how NGP works, how canvassing works, how, you know, get out the vote works, like bread and butter election stuff.

00:24:37.320 And that is very much a generational institutional failure.

00:24:41.920 But at the same time, like, these people are not showing up.

00:24:45.520 There's every single opportunity to do that.

00:24:47.780 So go out there in the real world, actually talk to the voters you want to represent.

00:24:52.300 And I think we can move forward because I think what a lot of people are frustrated about with the left and progressives in general is focusing on culture.

00:25:02.280 That's right.

00:25:02.780 And actually not talking about the things that you touched on before that actually really matter, which is economics.

00:25:07.680 That's right.

00:25:08.200 The fact that people, the gap between rich and poor is widening.

00:25:11.700 It seems that, you know, corporations are becoming particularly big, multinational corporations are becoming more and more powerful.

00:25:18.260 Governments are more in hog to these corporations.

00:25:20.320 This is what the left should be doing.

00:25:22.580 They should be challenging this.

00:25:24.380 100%.

00:25:24.780 I think we don't understand how easy we could have it on the left.

00:25:28.960 If we stopped this nonsense and we were a party that unapologetically stood for all those things, for working class people, I think we would take the country for two generations. 0.95

00:25:41.480 And we just can't.

00:25:43.720 Do you think part of the reason for that, Brianna, is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, this is just stuff people say.

00:25:49.300 I don't know if it's true.

00:25:50.180 I'm just curious to explore it with you.

00:25:53.120 The elite of the Democratic Party, it's probably true of the Republican Party to a large extent, but you'd expect that more, is in hock to the big corporations, the big tech.

00:26:04.420 Of course.

00:26:04.560 They're all working, colluding together.

00:26:06.520 So I guess what incentives do they have to take the correct position on all of this?

00:26:11.980 I think that's, I mean, this is the problem with power.

00:26:14.820 I can tell you when I ran for Congress, I spent eight hours a day in a chair fundraising, like basically calling for money for my campaign.

00:26:23.480 And, you know, it's, it's, you are very beholden to the donors that bring you money.

00:26:29.000 This is why a policy I believe in is public financing of elections.

00:26:32.780 We have that in the UK.

00:26:34.260 Does it work for y'all?

00:26:35.740 Better than here, for sure.

00:26:37.540 Yeah.

00:26:38.260 It's like something's got to change.

00:26:39.640 You're right.

00:26:40.020 The incentive structure is just not there.

00:26:42.300 And there's a lot of incentives for Democrats to say the right things, but when the votes come up on the House floor to not do the right things.

00:26:51.080 So I, in my estimation, y'all may not agree with it.

00:26:54.980 I still think we're better than the Republicans, but I think until that changes, people are not going to change their assessment of us.

00:27:02.360 And Brianna, you said that you think Joe Biden has been a good president.

00:27:06.840 And I know there's going to be a lot of people in the comments who are going to be, shall we say, politely disagreeing.

00:27:12.100 Sure.

00:27:12.620 Okay.

00:27:13.060 Why is it that you think he's been a good president?

00:27:16.860 So you talked about the value of institutions.

00:27:19.280 I think at the end of the day, something I really value is our Justice Department working normally.

00:27:25.120 You know, I value our military having a clear chain of command.

00:27:29.820 You know, I don't know if you remember, but the State Department was changing hands.

00:27:34.300 Rex Tillerson saying he had no faith.

00:27:36.620 You had generals resigning under Trump.

00:27:39.100 You had Trump trying to blow up NATO, something I assume you don't agree with.

00:27:42.580 You know, there is a path to normalcy for the United States and liberalism, like lowercase liberalism and democracy that, in my estimation, I think Joe Biden stands better for than the competition.

00:27:56.020 I don't mean to offend anyone in the audience, but it's really scary to me how much some of the Republican rhetoric is reflecting Vladimir Putin's talking points.

00:28:10.040 Now, party side, my left versus right politics ended the United States border.

00:28:14.820 I am an American.

00:28:15.760 And I think Joe Biden has been so much better for our national security than Trump has been.

00:28:20.960 Well, that's interesting because I was actually, maybe it's a good opportunity before I jump in for you to lay out some more of the domestic policies that you are happy about.

00:28:30.100 Because my personal view, and we can get into this, particularly what you said about NATO, I actually don't think that that's what Donald Trump was doing.

00:28:37.240 I think he was trying to get NATO to pay its own way.

00:28:40.440 You don't think Trump will blow up NATO if he's reelected?

00:28:43.040 My sense of what he was doing, you mentioned about the past, was he was trying to get the NATO member countries to pay their fair share so that NATO would be stronger, so that NATO would not be so reliant on the United States.

00:28:54.880 I thought that was, he warned Germany about taking Russian energy.

00:28:58.660 He warned them about paying their fair share.

00:29:00.780 And I think he's been proven entirely right.

00:29:03.060 The one, so the one area of this that I feel that I do understand somewhat is the geopolitical dimension.

00:29:09.360 I think Joe Biden has been a disaster.

00:29:11.480 Really?

00:29:11.760 His pullout from Afghanistan signaled tremendous weakness, which is, I think, why you end up with Ukraine being invaded afterwards as well. 0.85

00:29:19.880 So on the geopolitics, I wouldn't agree with you, actually.

00:29:22.600 I think Joe Biden has been very-

00:29:24.320 Can we go one at a time through these?

00:29:25.760 Yeah, yeah, of course, let's do this.

00:29:27.300 So Afghanistan, how long have we been in Afghanistan for 20 years, right?

00:29:31.600 And I'm not going to do the thing.

00:29:33.200 I know a lot of people on the left like to say, oh, Donald Trump agreed to this and then Joe Biden just executed. 1.00

00:29:38.560 Fuck that. 1.00

00:29:38.980 Joe Biden's our president. 1.00

00:29:40.460 He made the call.

00:29:41.540 Are we supposed to, like, I did not support us invading Afghanistan the way that George Bush did it.

00:29:48.860 I literally led protests for years.

00:29:51.120 That was a situation with the Taliban there poised to take over.

00:29:55.640 We had United States troops there for, what, 20 years basically keeping this?

00:30:00.260 Are we supposed to keep them there forever?

00:30:02.220 I mean, what are the alternatives?

00:30:03.620 So what I'm saying is not so much, I agree with you, the United States would have been better off destroying Al-Qaeda without staying there forever, right?

00:30:13.480 The Taliban would always come back anyway. 0.99

00:30:15.680 However, the way the pullout was done is the issue.

00:30:19.960 Sure.

00:30:20.380 It signaled that America, it wasn't that America left, it's that America abandoned its allies.

00:30:27.120 I hear what you're saying.

00:30:27.820 And that sent a message.

00:30:30.160 Yeah.

00:30:30.420 It sent a message that resonated around the world.

00:30:33.220 The word that America gives you is not worth the paper that it's written on.

00:30:36.460 That is a very fair criticism.

00:30:37.780 And when you pull out on that basis, what you signal to others is, well, are we Taiwan's ally?

00:30:44.600 Are we Ukraine's ally?

00:30:46.700 Or are we just saying that?

00:30:48.860 And do we have the resolve to back our allies when push comes to shove?

00:30:52.940 And what's happened consistently has been, whether that's Afghanistan, whether that's Ukraine, probably Taiwan also, is the United States talks a good game.

00:31:02.700 That's right.

00:31:03.040 But it doesn't actually do the things it needs to do.

00:31:06.680 So on the geopolitics of it, my own view.

00:31:09.100 Can I respond to that actually?

00:31:10.480 Yeah, of course.

00:31:10.720 So I really, I think that is a very fair criticism.

00:31:13.560 It broke my heart to see the Taliban flag flying over a United States airstrip as that happened.

00:31:19.860 Anyone that loves our country and loves democracy and loves Western values, that was a really hard day.

00:31:25.620 At the same time, you know, I think if you're talking about why is the United States perceived as weaker than we were, there have been a lot of really good democratic policies.

00:31:37.080 I think Operation Infinite Resolve and the fight against ISIS in the Obama years was excellent.

00:31:42.220 We've never had a national conversation about how aggressive and excellent Obama was at taking on ISIS and pushing back on this.

00:31:50.900 So I think if you look at things like Ukraine directionally, what, in my view, makes us weak is when the Republicans are holding up these bills to provide them arms.

00:32:02.520 I think that is a massive error in judgment.

00:32:04.740 So you look at who voted for what.

00:32:07.120 And I think the Democrats, like I don't have these numbers memorized, overwhelmingly voted for this and barely passed with Republican support.

00:32:14.620 Oh, sure.

00:32:15.140 But, Brianna, that isn't my argument.

00:32:17.300 Sure.

00:32:17.540 Since we're on this, let's just close this loop.

00:32:19.840 So I, as you know, a big, big supporter of us supporting Ukraine.

00:32:26.200 That's right.

00:32:26.480 At least in the beginning.

00:32:27.000 As am I.

00:32:27.840 Right.

00:32:28.980 What we're doing now is not supporting Ukraine.

00:32:31.780 How do you feel?

00:32:33.300 What do you mean?

00:32:33.880 What we're doing now is giving them just enough support so they can continue fighting.

00:32:38.360 Correct.

00:32:38.900 But they're not going to win.

00:32:39.980 That's right.

00:32:40.240 They're not going to get the outcome they want.

00:32:41.840 I agree.

00:32:42.280 And America isn't going to get the outcome they want.

00:32:44.260 I agree.

00:32:44.560 What the situation needed and still needs is somebody who is prepared to simultaneously carry a big stick and do a deal at the same time.

00:32:55.020 Ultimately, this is how this is going to end.

00:32:56.680 And what you need is someone who's going to say, either we do a deal on the basis of what's happening on the ground right now, which means, sadly, Russia is going to get pieces of Ukraine that it didn't have before, in exchange for Ukraine having long-term security.

00:33:11.520 And if you, Vladimir Putin, are not going to sign this, then I am going to give the Ukrainians everything.

00:33:17.960 That's what the president should be doing.

00:33:19.600 And I personally think Donald Trump is far more likely to say that than Joe Biden.

00:33:23.900 However, let's just agree to disagree on that.

00:33:27.200 Can I just agree with that?

00:33:28.560 I think that's really well said.

00:33:30.020 You know, we've gotten into this dynamic where we want to make Ukraine just strong enough that they can never lose, but not strong enough that they can never win.

00:33:39.880 Now, I'm not a general.

00:33:41.760 I can't appraise if, like, giving them air support is going to lead to World War III or not.

00:33:48.280 But I think that more needs to be done.

00:33:51.040 Like, just giving them, what is it, the 132-millimeter shells to, like, hit Russian, you know, barricades.

00:33:57.920 Like, doing this forever is not going to let them win the war.

00:34:00.880 We've just decided this lukewarm support.

00:34:03.420 So I think your assessment of this is dead on.

00:34:05.480 I guess my point on that issue is I don't think it's the Democrats are going all out for Ukraine and the Republicans are stopping it.

00:34:14.340 It's more like Democrats are doing a terrible job.

00:34:16.860 And the Republicans are torn.

00:34:18.160 There's a part of the Republican Party that wants Ukraine to win and would help much more than they're currently doing.

00:34:24.000 Sure.

00:34:24.520 And there's the other, you know, what I call the more woke right, so to speak, who are anti-Ukraine because they're anti-Western elites.

00:34:33.800 That's kind of their worldview.

00:34:35.480 Do you think they're compromised in some way by Russia?

00:34:38.520 No, I think they're compromised by the derangement.

00:34:41.740 You know, they've been staring into the abyss.

00:34:43.940 Sure.

00:34:44.200 They've been looking into the progressive abyss for so long.

00:34:46.680 They're now thinking like progressives in their head in many ways.

00:34:49.400 I hear what you're saying.

00:34:50.580 I mean, I guess I'm just old enough to remember when we were able to stick together on national security issues.

00:34:58.400 I hope that comes back.

00:34:59.260 I do too.

00:34:59.960 OK, let's park that because I feel like we're moving away from the core of the things we've been talking about.

00:35:07.180 You go ahead.

00:35:07.520 Yeah.

00:35:07.800 So I was going to say the one thing moving towards domestic policy.

00:35:14.060 Sure.

00:35:14.320 One of the major criticisms that Republicans and ordinary people are going to have, and please explode any myths, is when it comes to the border.

00:35:24.620 There's a lot of people in this country who are very upset, ornery people, very angry.

00:35:30.380 They're looking at things like people coming in undocumented.

00:35:35.620 There's crime that's been spiraling.

00:35:37.860 There's, you know, the fentanyl crisis.

00:35:39.540 And they're thinking to themselves, what the hell is going on with my country?

00:35:43.960 I fully agree with you.

00:35:45.000 I am a Democrat that wants the border taken far more seriously.

00:35:48.980 Like, sex trafficking across our southern border is horrible.

00:35:52.660 I urge you to go read stories about this. 0.85

00:35:54.560 It is a nightmare.

00:35:55.520 You cannot be a feminist and want the status quo on all this drugs coming through. 1.00

00:36:01.280 You know, I'm sure you saw the video, the viral video a while back, the woman, like, with her children under the barbed wire and all that.

00:36:07.940 It is completely normal for a country to need a secure border, and I don't understand why Democrats don't take this exponentially more seriously.

00:36:19.120 We can have a conversation about, you know, visas to let people in.

00:36:24.500 We can have a very high number of people that we let in, but we've got to secure the border.

00:36:29.400 And I think it is eminently fair to say the Democrats have failed at this.

00:36:33.140 And you say you don't know, but to me, it seems utterly perplexing because it doesn't, I just look at it and I go, unless you've drunk the progressive Kool-Aid, so we just say, for want of a better word, so much that you think open borders are racist.

00:36:52.020 Yeah, no human is a legal.

00:36:52.600 Which was a piece in the Times, by the way.

00:36:54.980 Like, oh, I couldn't believe that.

00:36:57.720 But apart from that, how can you justify it?

00:37:01.620 How can you justify it when you look at the number of fentanyl deaths in this country?

00:37:04.860 Again, do you want the real answer or do you want the political answer?

00:37:07.260 Let's go, all right.

00:37:08.180 Here's the real answer. 1.00

00:37:09.640 Democrats don't have balls to stand up to the nutjobs. 0.99

00:37:13.000 That's the real answer because you get called a racist and you're afraid about losing the Latino vote. 0.99

00:37:18.860 And, you know, it is in my case.

00:37:20.860 Can I just push back on that?

00:37:22.040 As somebody who is half Latin American, whose mother is from Venezuela, I can guarantee you,

00:37:28.400 Venezuelans in this country who came here legally, who pay their taxes, who work hard, just like Cubans, just like Puerto Ricans,

00:37:35.500 they're even more pissed off about this because they're like, hang on a second, I jumped through all the hoops,

00:37:41.140 I did all the paperwork, I paid my money, I paid my taxes, and I could have just walked in?

00:37:46.580 Sure.

00:37:47.320 I'm not saying it's a correct assessment.

00:37:49.080 It's a deeply incorrect assessment, but that's the reason for the fear there, you know?

00:37:54.380 I see. So, but isn't, wouldn't that be, if we're talking about Joe Biden being a good president.

00:38:00.380 Sure.

00:38:00.720 Wouldn't you agree, if you disagree with what's happening on the border, that at least on that issue, he's been terrible?

00:38:08.480 We just tried to pass a bill that would have made Democrats extremely unhappy.

00:38:13.480 The progressives were really upset about this bill because it gave the president things to do,

00:38:18.120 like close the border in an emergency and add some of the strictest, like, restrictions on this.

00:38:23.860 And the Republicans are the ones that defeated that bill because they wanted it to be an election issue.

00:38:29.380 Now, I don't mean to be, get all geeky and policy oriented, but a huge part of this is also the lack of immigration judges.

00:38:36.200 We have a huge, are you aware that in Boston, we actually sent, we're Port City.

00:38:40.920 We sent our immigration judges down to the border in an emergency capacity because they can't even try cases down there.

00:38:48.760 I don't care if you're on the right or the left or open borders there.

00:38:52.260 We should all agree that if you come across the border, you should have a legal process to figure out where you need to go.

00:38:58.120 We don't have the system for that.

00:39:00.480 So.

00:39:00.760 No, I don't agree with that.

00:39:02.220 Do you not?

00:39:02.700 No, I don't.

00:39:03.240 I'm a first generation immigrant to the UK.

00:39:05.280 And my view is nobody should be coming into the country illegally.

00:39:09.740 Sure.

00:39:10.460 Right.

00:39:11.020 So we shouldn't be sending Boston immigration judges to the South because they shouldn't be necessary because the border should be closed.

00:39:19.440 That's what I'm saying.

00:39:20.700 I think.

00:39:21.100 I think that's what most people expect, really.

00:39:23.580 Look, I want this situation handled.

00:39:26.420 I will vote for it.

00:39:27.280 I would vote for any candidate that took that seriously.

00:39:30.140 It's a mess.

00:39:30.700 Democrats have our head on the sands on this. 0.98

00:39:33.300 This could make us lose the election if we don't wake the fuck up and take it very seriously. 0.95

00:39:38.200 And there's a leftist argument for this.

00:39:40.740 There's a leftist argument for doing all of this.

00:39:43.340 Like it's there's so much crime and trauma that happens by these cartels doing this stuff.

00:39:50.240 The Fendel crisis is a billion times worse because of this.

00:39:53.800 There's no excuse for this.

00:39:55.140 OK, so just carrying down the thread then, give us some some things you think Joe Biden has done that have actually been good domestically, let's say.

00:40:06.240 I think the inflation situation, the United States, like every country in the entire world is dealing with inflation.

00:40:12.380 Of course.

00:40:13.120 And I think that we've actually gotten the United States economy much further back on track.

00:40:18.240 I think our inflation has come down much better compared to the rest of the world.

00:40:21.900 I think on coronavirus, I think people forget just how much like getting vaccines out to people was mismanaged under Donald Trump.

00:40:30.140 He did an A plus job at getting that system like in place and getting vaccines available for people.

00:40:37.520 Reopening schools.

00:40:38.540 I think he did a really good job on that.

00:40:40.760 So I think there's a lot of domestic policies actually excelled at.

00:40:44.480 So.

00:40:46.680 I'm going to ask you a question, which is not it's not particularly pleasant, but it needs to be said.

00:40:52.980 Go for it.

00:40:54.360 I very much admire you for coming on the show, Brianna.

00:40:56.820 Sure.

00:40:57.000 And I very much admire you for taking tough questions, fielding them and dealing with them in the spirit that they're meant.

00:41:04.320 I'm going to be honest with you.

00:41:05.920 A lot of other people on maybe that side of the argument or the Democrats strike me as weak.

00:41:12.320 If I'm being blunt, if.

00:41:14.500 Yeah.

00:41:15.660 If your biggest fear is being called a racist.

00:41:19.680 Sure.

00:41:20.080 Or being said that you're whatever else.

00:41:22.680 Then you shouldn't be anywhere near power.

00:41:24.560 I'm sorry.

00:41:25.300 You're a leader.

00:41:25.980 You're there to make tough decisions.

00:41:27.480 And people are going to say nasty things about you.

00:41:29.860 Tough.

00:41:30.500 You want the position.

00:41:32.280 You've got to deal with that.

00:41:33.180 This is why I've been in progressive politics for the last decade.

00:41:36.620 I wanted a Democratic Party with some balls that would stand up on all these things. 1.00

00:41:41.640 The problem is the progressive power base has lost their goddamn minds. 1.00

00:41:46.080 So where the fuck are you going to go? 1.00

00:41:47.620 You've got the insurgent side of it that's trying to push the Democratic Party to actually get serious about public policy. 0.99

00:41:53.720 I believe universal health care.

00:41:55.920 The American health care system is completely broken.

00:41:58.820 I had a theory of change that if we were out there and we pushed the traditional corporate Democrats hard from the progressive side, that that would get us to better public policy.

00:42:09.620 The problem is the progressive left is so crazy nowadays.

00:42:13.440 They're worse than the corporate Democrats.

00:42:15.620 So we've got to turn this whole ship around.

00:42:17.960 And is that possible, though?

00:42:20.480 I don't know.

00:42:21.400 I don't think it's likely, to be really honest with you.

00:42:24.720 So what does the future look like?

00:42:32.540 My hope in speaking up is I see a lot of people that are in my DMs and they say, Brianna, I agree with you.

00:42:40.640 And my hope is if enough people like me stand up and we'll start getting real about this stuff, we can start pushing the crazies out and get the Democratic Party on a path that makes sense.

00:42:52.500 I don't think that's likely.

00:42:54.280 I think there's a flip a coin.

00:42:56.480 We're going to see who wins this election.

00:42:58.640 Is it going to be Joe Biden or, you know, or Donald Trump?

00:43:02.380 And from there, we are going to be in the wilderness without power if we lose.

00:43:08.260 And we're going to find a new version of the Democratic Party.

00:43:11.800 I don't know if that's going to be a better version of the Democratic Party.

00:43:15.800 So, yeah.

00:43:16.300 Well, let me say something to you.

00:43:18.300 Please.

00:43:18.740 Through you to some of the people that follow you that might be interested.

00:43:22.400 I really believe, you know, I was in Australia recently and I was at a, I was invited to a dinner where there were a lot of people who were influential in Australia.

00:43:30.660 And there were people from both sides of politics there.

00:43:33.360 And the person who invited us, he said, look, I don't want the other party to be elected.

00:43:39.800 That's right.

00:43:40.360 But at some point they will be.

00:43:41.940 Yeah.

00:43:42.220 And I want them to be the very best possible party for Australia.

00:43:45.760 That's right.

00:43:46.180 Best possible government for Australia.

00:43:47.700 And in that spirit, my view is the only way that the left is actually going to start to have a good impact on society is when, if, when Donald Trump gets elected again, which I suspect he will be, you don't agree?

00:44:08.580 And I may well be wrong.

00:44:09.680 I think it's going to be close.

00:44:10.500 I think I see data and I think I have a perspective on the state efforts that probably enforce my opinion on that.

00:44:17.080 And you're probably much better informed about it than I am.

00:44:19.460 I'm just operating on a general sentiment kind of basis.

00:44:22.000 But I guess what I'm saying is the mistake that was made in 2016, which you articulated so well, was a failure to take seriously the concerns of the ordinary American.

00:44:31.020 That's right.

00:44:31.360 If Donald Trump is elected again, my greatest fear is that instead of doing that, instead of learning the lesson and going, OK, what are we not listening to?

00:44:41.500 Is it immigration?

00:44:42.100 OK, we've got to change our position in immigration.

00:44:44.800 Is it foreign policy?

00:44:45.860 OK, we've got to, we've got to adjust.

00:44:47.740 My worry, and I know this is Francis' worry too, because we talk about it all this time, is if Donald Trump is re-elected, you're going to see a progressive meltdown on a scale that's going to dwarf 2016.

00:44:59.900 That's right.

00:45:00.120 Which will only make the country worse and the left way more unelectable.

00:45:04.300 Because they don't believe in democracy, fundamentally.

00:45:07.460 Look at the fringe, free Palestine people. 1.00

00:45:10.300 There's some people in that movement that genuinely see scenes of horror out of Gaza and they want to do something about it.

00:45:17.180 And I respect that.

00:45:18.700 At the same time, there are a lot of people in that movement that want democracy and America dead.

00:45:24.400 Well, they hate America.

00:45:25.600 Yeah, they do.

00:45:26.340 They hate our own country.

00:45:27.580 They do.

00:45:28.160 When did it become, like, inappropriate to be on the left and say you love your country and you respect your police officers and your teachers?

00:45:37.680 You respect someone?

00:45:38.900 Well, it's not how I feel.

00:45:41.460 Yeah.

00:45:41.580 And, you know, it's, we've got to confront this illiberalism that is just strangling the Democratic Party.

00:45:53.620 We've got to get more comfortable with free speech and talking to people that disagree with us.

00:45:58.360 We need to get much more serious about public policy because we're not.

00:46:01.920 It's so true. 0.84

00:46:05.140 And it's genuinely sad to see what's happening to the left.

00:46:10.040 And there's a lot of people who I know, and look, I'm friends with some of them on the right.

00:46:13.840 They're like, ha ha, look at them, blah, blah, blah.

00:46:16.260 Aren't they this?

00:46:16.920 Aren't they that?

00:46:18.120 And you go, I don't think you understand what is happening to the very fabric of our society.

00:46:23.380 And if this side are going crazy, as you're putting it, what's happening to our society as a whole?

00:46:32.440 That's right.

00:46:33.000 And what's happening to your side?

00:46:34.440 Because I'm telling you something else.

00:46:36.080 Your side isn't being great either.

00:46:38.100 And the moral decay is happening in a similar, albeit different way at the same time.

00:46:43.640 I agree.

00:46:44.520 I mean, look, I feel like I have extreme problems with MAGA, right?

00:46:49.320 I think in many ways this is an anti-democratic movement as well.

00:46:52.760 So, you know, just because I'm talking at the left today, this is my own side.

00:46:57.700 Like, it's not surprising to you that I don't like the Republicans and don't agree with their policies, right?

00:47:03.100 But I think you're really right.

00:47:04.920 This is about the fabric of the country coming apart.

00:47:08.300 I think you're seeing this in the UK to a lesser degree.

00:47:11.200 But, you know, like your politics tend to follow our own.

00:47:14.560 So we've got to confront this head on. 0.99

00:47:16.900 We download your crap very, very readily in the UK. 0.92

00:47:22.760 I suppose one of the things that I was interested in exploring, Brianna, with you as well is you mentioned when we were talking about you potentially coming on the show that there's probably a lot of areas that we disagree about. 0.94

00:47:33.320 Sure.

00:47:33.420 You disagree with the Republicans about we're obviously not Republicans.

00:47:36.820 So what do you think that is?

00:47:38.280 I'm keen to find that out.

00:47:39.900 Well, I want to be polite.

00:47:41.480 I think generally speaking, when I watch your stuff, I think you hold the right and the left to two different standards.

00:47:51.800 I think you're a little too tough on the left.

00:47:53.900 But I understand it because I spend more time criticizing.

00:47:56.100 But people are going to say that about you now.

00:47:57.920 This is the thing.

00:47:58.620 That's fine.

00:47:59.300 People will, the progressives will call you right wing or whatever.

00:48:03.080 And they do.

00:48:03.520 And they do because you're criticizing the left. 0.99

00:48:06.120 You're doing that out of a place of let's get our shit together. 0.99

00:48:09.560 Right. 0.99

00:48:10.020 I want our society to get its shit together because the one unique experience that I have that most people don't have is I've lived outside of this society. 0.99

00:48:18.620 I was born outside of this society. 0.99

00:48:20.060 And I can tell you, people in Russia and people in China are not having debates on TV about fucking pronouns. 0.99

00:48:26.260 That's right. 0.99

00:48:27.420 Right.

00:48:27.940 And the more time we spend on that, the less time we spend realizing that we live in a geopolitical battle of civilizations and we are sliding backwards.

00:48:37.220 That's right.

00:48:38.240 So, look, if I have a 5% disagreement with you about pronouns, like, let's be really clear here.

00:48:45.160 You are on the side of democracy and liberalism.

00:48:49.260 And I think something I appreciate about you is really talking about the threat of terrorism in very, very clear terms.

00:48:57.240 I think that sometimes in this country, when we think about Islam, it's the westernized, like, liberal professor version of it.

00:49:05.760 And I think you're not really thinking about it through, like, what is happening in Syria or what ISIS is doing.

00:49:11.780 Or, you know, Iran and the Cold War with Saudi Arabia.

00:49:16.680 So, I think what I appreciate about you is I think you talk about this in really clear moral terms.

00:49:24.040 And I wish we could have a better conversation about that in this country.

00:49:28.300 I think speaking, like, about learning the wrong lessons, I think America learned a lot of the wrong lessons from 9-11 and George Bush.

00:49:37.480 Because, you know, we were attacked.

00:49:40.640 That was something we needed to take seriously.

00:49:43.200 But the lesson we took from that is because his leadership and decisions were so poor and got us into two wars that did not address terrorism.

00:49:52.740 It created terrorism.

00:49:54.460 We have two generations of Americans now that don't think the United States military can accomplish anything.

00:50:00.220 That is false.

00:50:01.360 We need to be an arsenal of democracy for the world.

00:50:05.780 And I think I want to play my role in getting this there.

00:50:08.680 Well, that's great.

00:50:10.200 But come back with me to what you think we might disagree about.

00:50:13.180 Because one of the things you mentioned was the trans issue.

00:50:15.800 Sure.

00:50:15.900 And my, well, obviously we all think this about our own position, but my view is, Francis and I have taken a pretty sensible position on it.

00:50:28.540 A, to have a broad range of perspectives on.

00:50:31.780 We had a trans woman on the show very early, the first person with whom we raised this issue, who absolutely hates our guts now and whatever. 0.98

00:50:39.600 Who is it?

00:50:40.220 India Willoughby.

00:50:41.240 Oh, okay.

00:50:41.860 And we had...

00:50:42.780 She's a friend.

00:50:43.420 I like her a lot.

00:50:44.020 And we had other people who had different perspectives, everyone from Buck Angel, who I know you know, to people who are very critical of certain things.

00:50:52.480 And I thought that their criticisms in some ways were, was excessive, but in other ways really important.

00:50:57.760 Sure.

00:50:58.000 And the place I think we've both landed in is the place kind of, to some extent, we started in, which is adults should be able to do what they want.

00:51:07.080 Great.

00:51:08.300 Children, however, are not capable of making informed decisions about the future because they're children.

00:51:13.360 Sure.

00:51:14.020 And should therefore be protected from medicalization.

00:51:16.740 Sure.

00:51:17.020 And there's quite a lot of evidence that a lot of children who go down the transgender path are actually not transgender at all.

00:51:23.540 They're either gay or they're autistic or both. 0.91

00:51:25.840 Yeah. 0.99

00:51:25.960 Or bullied or whatever.

00:51:27.620 And I don't think cutting bits off those children is the right position.

00:51:31.840 To be clear, you can't get surgery until you're 18, as I understand it.

00:51:35.760 You can get on puberty blockers.

00:51:37.420 Yeah, on puberty blockers.

00:51:38.260 Right.

00:51:38.540 That's pretty mutilated.

00:51:39.560 But that's not cutting bits off.

00:51:40.140 That's correct.

00:51:40.780 Fine.

00:51:41.180 Fine.

00:51:41.740 Let's take that.

00:51:43.720 Medicalizing confused children is something I'm against. 1.00

00:51:47.020 So, look, this is going to get me canceled by trans Twitter. 0.94

00:51:49.960 But something that's changed in the last 10 years is we've really redefined who is trans, right?

00:51:55.900 Yeah.

00:51:56.040 It used to be people that medically transitioned.

00:51:58.920 You went through the Benjamins, and then there were the WPATH standards.

00:52:02.860 It's some reasonable stuff.

00:52:04.540 Go read it.

00:52:05.240 Go to a therapist for three months.

00:52:07.200 Get on hormones.

00:52:08.720 Have real-life experience out there.

00:52:11.420 Get surgery like a year later, right?

00:52:13.900 Not a crazy, like, gauntlet to go down.

00:52:16.980 We've expanded all of these things in really extreme ways now.

00:52:21.920 There are people in the trans movement that, hand to God, really believe in self-ID. 0.96

00:52:27.140 Like, you should just be able to say, I'm this gender, and that has legal consequences for what spaces. 0.99

00:52:32.240 Like that.

00:52:33.200 Yeah.

00:52:33.740 This is crazy, right?

00:52:35.740 I don't understand this non-binary stuff. 1.00

00:52:39.080 I have friends that are non-binary.

00:52:40.760 I think they're going through something real.

00:52:42.720 They're in the WPATH.

00:52:44.060 But they're going through something different than people who medically transitioned.

00:52:48.160 So, to come back to your point about children, if you are adding all of that onto who is considered trans,

00:52:57.260 of course there are going to be some of those children that are non-binary or just don't like the gender role or confused or gay,

00:53:06.180 that transition is not going to serve them.

00:53:08.660 So, you know, I personally have the opinion that if you look at the science here, it is not particularly conclusive one way or another.

00:53:18.220 We need to double down on the studies we're doing.

00:53:21.100 We need to really make a better pathway to serve those children.

00:53:25.840 And I do want more of them filtered out.

00:53:27.940 So, would you agree with me then that until we have the rock solid evidence, we shouldn't be transitioning kids? 1.00

00:53:34.620 I think I wouldn't agree with you there because I personally know so many people that are such good friends of mine that this saved their life.

00:53:41.920 But what I think would help is progressives are not having an honest conversation with parents.

00:53:49.760 And I am not sure gender clinics are either.

00:53:52.480 They are saying things like, your child is going to suicide if you don't do this really life-altering thing.

00:53:59.400 I don't think that's a good message.

00:54:01.220 I think we need to be talking to parents with more respect about all of this.

00:54:04.320 One of the things that I actually have a deep level of empathy for a lot of trans people, and trans people have spoken to both of us about it and me individually and all the rest of it is, you know, it's tough dealing with gender dysphoria.

00:54:20.160 It's really hard.

00:54:20.860 It's really hard.

00:54:21.840 You go through the processes, you take the meds, you go through everywhere else.

00:54:26.880 And then most people just want to get on with their lives.

00:54:29.020 That's right.

00:54:29.480 They just want to live their lives.

00:54:30.720 They want to do their jobs.

00:54:31.680 They want to have their friends, their families.

00:54:33.420 And that's it.

00:54:34.820 And they've been politicized now.

00:54:36.900 That's right.

00:54:37.420 And, you know, one person said to me, like, I just feel like I'm being asked to represent all the trans people.

00:54:44.060 I am just a person.

00:54:45.820 That's right.

00:54:46.240 And I just want you to leave me alone.

00:54:48.260 That's right.

00:54:48.900 It was this way 10 years ago.

00:54:50.920 It was this way 20 years ago.

00:54:52.420 It's really been, in my view, a real disaster for trans rights to redefine it from a nonpartisan medical issue to this leftist fringe identity issue where you're trying to destroy the idea of gender itself. 0.63

00:55:08.660 Now, I want to be really clear.

00:55:09.940 If someone's non-binary, I will do my best. 0.82

00:55:12.140 I will call them by the pronouns that they want because I'm not a jackass.

00:55:15.520 But that doesn't mean I agree with this idea of destroying gender in the public commons. 0.97

00:55:21.560 That's not something I support.

00:55:23.980 So, you know, I think the truth is we need to be able to have a discussion.

00:55:29.080 And I think a lot of trans people that actually transition have been ironically censored from their own civil rights movement.

00:55:36.960 The discussion is the important part.

00:55:39.480 And this is where the progressive taboos, and they really are progressive taboos, they have to be broken apart.

00:55:46.080 I agree.

00:55:46.480 We have to be able to talk about the data, the evidence, without, you know, you're denying trans people's existence and all of this other nonsense.

00:55:55.480 I agree.

00:55:55.880 Did you read Emily Blaselon's, Blaselon's, I don't know how you say it.

00:56:00.300 It was a really great piece in the New York Times called The Battle for Gender Clinics or something.

00:56:05.780 It was about children transitioning.

00:56:08.120 I was so upset about this because it was such a deeply reported, amazing piece that was overwhelmingly pro-trans.

00:56:17.840 And it was talking about the history of children transitioning and what the reality was in these gender clinics and the pros of it and the cons of it.

00:56:26.640 And what did trans Twitter do from open discussion from a reporter that was very, very sympathetic to that cause, that canceled her, that went after her in very personal ways, she had to step away from Twitter.

00:56:41.160 It was absolute hell for her.

00:56:43.420 If trans people cannot even let the New York Times write an article that is pro-trans healthcare and act like adults, I don't know how they're going to win over normal people. 1.00

00:56:57.340 Brianna, do they want to win over normal people?

00:57:00.920 I think some do.

00:57:06.380 I don't think a lot of the new ones do.

00:57:08.600 No.

00:57:09.160 No.

00:57:09.980 And to me, that's a real problem.

00:57:12.320 They're more interested in being right and winning people over.

00:57:15.680 I agree.

00:57:16.700 There's a lot of that going around, to be fair.

00:57:18.560 Yeah.

00:57:19.180 And when you're in that position, I mean, that's a pretty terrible position to be in for everybody.

00:57:27.020 I agree.

00:57:27.440 It's so discouraging.

00:57:32.680 I mean, it's, for me, I'm 46.

00:57:36.320 I remember when trans was Jerry Springer in this country. 0.97

00:57:40.180 I don't know if you know who that was.

00:57:41.800 And to think about that as.

00:57:43.640 Jerry.

00:57:44.240 Jerry.

00:57:45.180 To think about that era as just a healthier discussion.

00:57:51.020 It's terrifying.

00:57:52.220 It's amazing how we live in a world where Jerry Springer was a healthier discussion.

00:57:57.440 Tell me I'm wrong.

00:57:59.360 Just bring about 10 crazies onto the stage and make them fight. 0.92

00:58:02.380 That was healthy.

00:58:03.220 Yeah.

00:58:03.480 And then broken up.

00:58:05.320 This is what I was thinking about.

00:58:06.580 Like in the Jerry Springer era, like a trans woman being married to a man was salacious. 0.97

00:58:11.740 And today it's boring because half of trans Twitter is in their polycule with five non-binary 1.00

00:58:16.040 people, like it's insane.

00:58:18.920 So you mentioned the election that's obviously looming in the future.

00:58:24.620 You seem to think it's going to be close.

00:58:26.960 You don't know.

00:58:27.400 You're not making a call either way.

00:58:29.200 Well, let me tell you why.

00:58:30.900 So elections do not come down to vibes.

00:58:34.740 They come down to get out the vote.

00:58:37.180 So what I mean by get out the vote is you build a relational database of contacts that you have

00:58:44.020 from canvassing or relational organizing, which is you literally pay people to go contact

00:58:51.740 a hundred of their friends on Facebook and make sure they'll get out and vote.

00:58:55.840 And the Democrats' data strategy this time around has actually been pretty good.

00:59:00.780 So when I'm looking at the infrastructure we are building for the ground game in these swing states,

00:59:07.640 I actually feel pretty positive about it.

00:59:10.700 So our messaging, I think I would give a D minus to.

00:59:15.400 Joe Biden's ability to go out and make a coherent vision for the country, I would give an F to.

00:59:21.480 But these like bread and butter tools to win an election,

00:59:25.480 I actually think we're doing much better than Trump is.

00:59:29.120 Brianna, I've got to ask this question.

00:59:30.560 Sure.

00:59:31.420 He's too old, isn't he?

00:59:32.840 Yeah.

00:59:34.340 This is why I didn't vote for him in the primary, like in 2020.

00:59:38.440 What is going on when we have Trump or Biden?

00:59:43.420 What is going on with the system?

00:59:46.440 You've got this amazing country.

00:59:47.640 Do you think I can defend this?

00:59:48.900 One of my closest friends, Cenk Uygur, ran for president because he saw this and believes Biden can't win.

00:59:55.840 So I can't defend it.

00:59:57.820 I mean, I've been very open.

00:59:59.000 I wish he had dropped out and let someone else be the standard bearer.

01:00:02.820 He didn't.

01:00:03.800 And it's a really big risk.

01:00:05.060 And now it's too late to do anything.

01:00:07.220 Who would you rather have run?

01:00:09.660 So y'all probably don't like her.

01:00:11.660 But Elizabeth Warren, she's my senator in Massachusetts. 0.99

01:00:14.220 I think she is amazing.

01:00:16.340 She's the best in-person politician I've ever seen.

01:00:19.900 Works a room.

01:00:21.180 Really good policy.

01:00:22.480 I would love to see her as president. 1.00

01:00:24.220 I don't know why you say we probably wouldn't like her.

01:00:26.080 We're big fans of Native American rights.

01:00:27.880 Well, I say that because...

01:00:32.100 I had to say that.

01:00:33.040 It's very fair enough.

01:00:34.360 She is, you know, she's gotten into some gender controversies, I think I would say. 1.00

01:00:39.300 Yeah.

01:00:39.540 No, I think that actually if you listen to some of the stuff that she says about economics, some of it I don't agree with.

01:00:48.080 Some of it I agree with.

01:00:49.000 But, you know, and she's not, she's definitely not one of these crazy, she's, I'm not sure if she's the inspirational candidate that we'd all hope for.

01:00:58.160 But no, I...

01:00:59.440 Okay, how about Ro Khanna?

01:01:01.220 Do you know Ro Khanna?

01:01:02.140 I'm familiar, yeah.

01:01:03.340 Ro Khanna's a really good guy.

01:01:04.980 Really smart, really policy focused, very focused.

01:01:08.200 I would think he would be an excellent president.

01:01:12.340 We've got talent in the party.

01:01:14.140 I think the problem is, and the Republicans have this issue too.

01:01:18.640 There's a seniority system.

01:01:20.440 So it's like, whose turn is it?

01:01:21.900 Right, yeah.

01:01:22.400 You know, whose favors can I call in?

01:01:24.180 So then you eventually end up with a bunch of old people. 1.00

01:01:26.520 That's right.

01:01:26.840 Yeah.

01:01:27.020 Yeah.

01:01:27.660 Well, on that happy note, why don't we wrap up?

01:01:31.220 We'll go to locals for questions from our audience.

01:01:33.540 But before we do, Brandon, the last question, as you know, we always ask is, what's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be?

01:01:39.460 What's the one thing we're talking about that we should be?

01:01:41.920 We're not talking about.

01:01:42.480 We're not talking about.

01:01:43.640 I think that something really scary is going on with young men.

01:01:48.520 I saw this during Gamergate, and one of the mistakes I feel I made during Gamergate was treating these young men as if they were monsters.

01:01:59.120 And I think the truth is we have two generations of young men that are looking for a path, and they're lost, and they're lonely.

01:02:09.440 And Andrea Tate is talking to them in terms they understand, and the Democrats are not.

01:02:14.660 So I think that, you know, just talking at the direct, we didn't get a chance to do this today.

01:02:21.080 I think if the Democratic Party cannot figure out a way to, yes, talk about women's rights, talk about LGBT rights, but stop telling men that they don't matter, I don't think we're going to win elections.

01:02:33.500 So I think we need to get extremely serious about this.

01:02:37.340 Yeah, if you want to understand the slide generationally, my generation's male role model in the public, on the internet, is Jordan Peterson, who I think is a great guy.

01:02:47.820 I've just been touring with him, so I would say that, but he is a great guy, a really, truly great man.

01:02:53.520 And Gen Z's male role model is Andrew Tate.

01:02:56.280 That's right.

01:02:56.720 About whom I would definitely not say the same thing.

01:02:58.760 That's right.

01:02:59.140 I always find Jordan Peterson really interesting.

01:03:02.680 You know, I've talked about this a million times, but, you know, I have been sober for 20 years.

01:03:08.140 So a lot of his struggles with, you know, finding yourself addicted and trying to find a path back, I really identify with that.

01:03:14.960 I've always wanted to talk to him about it.

01:03:17.020 Yeah, he's great.

01:03:18.060 And what he's doing now is he's not really talking about the culture war or politics or anything.

01:03:22.960 And I'm glad he's not.

01:03:25.280 I think it's a great thing that he's doing because he's talking to people about how to live a good life.

01:03:29.140 Yeah.

01:03:29.600 And he's telling them very powerful stories about some of the ways to do that.

01:03:35.080 You know, you don't have to believe in God or not or whatever.

01:03:37.860 It's just a very powerful way of looking at the world and being constructive, productive, creative, you know, passionate, driven, and living a good life and contributing to others.

01:03:48.420 Yeah.

01:03:48.740 So that's a good role model.

01:03:51.080 But I think that the fact that the next generation is leaning in a different direction tells you quite a lot about what young men are dealing with, what they're being told about who they are, what their role is in the world and the way the economy is changing and all of that.

01:04:04.680 So I think it's a great thing.

01:04:05.680 It's a really hard time to be a young man.

01:04:07.900 I was, you know, my husband, I've talked to him about this so much, like what it was like for him growing up and learning to be a man.

01:04:14.160 You know, there were culture, there were institutions there a generation ago.

01:04:18.780 I don't think those exist today.

01:04:20.640 I think we're throwing our young men online.

01:04:23.360 I think they're not learning to interact with people in the real world.

01:04:26.460 I think they're lonely.

01:04:27.280 I think they're horny. 1.00

01:04:28.700 And I think they're lost.

01:04:31.820 You know, we've talked a lot about how democracy survives from here.

01:04:35.840 How can any country survive without young men and a path? 1.00

01:04:40.640 Like, it can't.

01:04:42.600 So, you know, I really wish the Democrats would make it a project to find our public figures that can talk to those young men in honest ways and try to bring them in.

01:04:56.480 And come up with some public policy to make their lives better.

01:04:59.420 All right.

01:04:59.660 Well, the three Democrats who were listening, thank you for being around.

01:05:02.400 Take that to heart.

01:05:03.580 And head on over to Locals, where we ask Brianna your questions. 1.00

01:05:08.820 Are you worried you'll never find a way to reach those on your own side that see you as a traitor?

01:05:14.520 Or will you be comfortable remaining a dissident voice? 1.00

01:05:18.900 My goal is to destroy those people. 0.90

01:05:21.600 Broadway's smash hit, the Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, is coming to Toronto. 0.97

01:05:31.980 The true story of a kid from Brooklyn destined for something more, featuring all the songs you love, including America, Forever in Blue Jeans, and Sweet Caroline.

01:05:41.520 Like Jersey Boys and Beautiful, the next musical mega hit is here.

01:05:45.400 The Neil Diamond Musical, A Beautiful Noise, April 28th through June 7th, 2026, the Princess of Wales Theatre.

01:05:53.320 Get tickets at Mirvish.com.

01:05:55.160 It's like you're on the next level.

01:06:03.080 You're watching the entire league.

01:06:04.080 You're watching the entire league.

01:06:05.700 You're watching the entire league.

01:06:07.000 You're watching the other的 150ti.

01:06:08.560 You're watching the entire league.

01:06:09.860 And you're wondering, die'm sure, die's on your own side.

01:06:12.080 Keep your choice.

01:06:13.160 You're waiting & give yourself a minute.

01:06:15.140 Yeah.

01:06:16.080 Black love Triangle, a half. 1.00

01:06:18.160 Uncle field noise, come to your dice with you, come to us.

01:06:19.960 Kansas City Baths is coming to children's cattle.

01:06:21.000 That's right.

01:06:22.700 Roll with us.

TRIGGERnometry - June 12, 2024

Progressive Activist Speaks Out Against Woke Madness - Brianna Wu

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