James O'Keefe is the founder of Project Veritas, a nationwide, undercover investigative journalism organization that goes undercover to expose waste, fraud, abuse, and corruption around the world. In this episode, James talks about how he got started in his work, and why he founded the organization.
00:04:57.280I mean, it depends upon what you're asking about. But generally speaking, things are, you know, as the late Mike Wallace said, and I wrote about this in my recent book, American Mockbreaker, things are rarely as they seem and seldom as they ought to be.
00:05:14.420so people say what motivates me well when you're growing up and you're watching local media and
00:05:20.140you're seeing things are rarely as they seem and seldom as they should be and and oftentimes people
00:05:26.900debate facts in other words you know does two plus two equal four two plus two equals five and
00:05:33.140that's the tragedy in america right now is that we don't agree on facts but there is only one
00:05:38.500set of facts. You're not entitled to two different realities. So oftentimes we record these people
00:05:45.240saying these things. For example, the Pfizer executive, and I'm not even sure I'm allowed
00:05:49.860to say this on your show or Twitter or anywhere else, but it is a fact that a Pfizer engineer,
00:05:56.880biochemist at Pfizer said that if you've had COVID, it's more effective
00:06:05.540than their own vaccine. The antibodies are more effective. This is coming out of the mouth
00:06:11.260of a Pfizer scientist. So for me to report that I get censored, why am I being censored? Don't
00:06:17.940kill the messenger. I'm just reporting, which is my duty, what the people inside a pharmaceutical
00:06:23.980company are saying. That's the tragedy that we're faced with at Project Veritas. And most people
00:06:29.580don't do this because it's too hard. You get sued, you get attacked, you get censored,
00:06:35.540It's expensive. Investigative journalism is hard because the problem we found is that media companies often give you the information that the people in the government want you to know.
00:06:46.960They give you sanctioned information. And what you really ought to do is give people the unsanctioned information.
00:06:54.440You have to go against the consent of the government and also go give the information that's not permissible for you to give.
00:07:03.140And when you take that route, it's very difficult. It's very, very taxing. And oftentimes it leads to things that we had to deal with, like the FBI coming after us, which is truly an extraordinary development.
00:07:17.820James, how do you pick your stories? Why do you go after certain stories and maybe just disregard others or think that others aren't as important? How do you do your editorial?
00:07:29.140well oftentimes our stories pick us our stories choose us this is something that most people
00:07:35.960don't understand um because people are very political right so most people are out there
00:07:41.560opining and most content you consume on instagram it's all people's conjecture it's all people
00:07:47.660talking what they think but what the project veritas and what investigative reporting does
00:07:53.100is sources come to us with information. We try to corroborate it. People trust us.
00:07:59.440They trust us because of what we've been through. We had a source come to us recently within the
00:08:05.480FBI, a whistleblower. I did not seek that person out. That person sought us out. We get thousands
00:08:13.480of tips a day, hundreds of DMs a day. And that source inside the FBI came to us with a document
00:08:19.140showing that the Federal Bureau of Investigation labeled us as news media on their internal
00:08:25.740computer systems. This was in direct contradiction to what the prosecutors said. We're not a
00:08:31.120journalist, they said in New York. So this whistleblower, this person with a conscience
00:08:35.900inside the Bureau felt the public should see this information. This is a restricted document. You
00:08:42.020could say even perhaps classified document that very few people had access to and brought that
00:08:46.740to us. I did not seek that out. In the beginning of my career, I indeed did seek out. I did
00:08:52.920infiltrate, went undercover. I went in as a pimp into Acorn. I walked in the door pretending to
00:08:59.940be a pimp with a young girl that I said was my prostitute. Obviously, in the beginning,
00:09:05.640I kind of went out there. In the beginning, I chose subjects that were sacred cows. That means
00:09:12.400to say organizations that the media refuse to investigate. Planned Parenthood is a great
00:09:17.800example of an organization that, well, you shouldn't investigate them because they do
00:09:21.960good work. I say, well, okay, well, they could do good work, but you should also investigate them
00:09:26.300because they get whatever billion dollars of federal money. So everything deserves scrutiny,
00:09:32.860particularly groups that are powerful and have a lot of money.
00:09:35.980and james let's be honest everybody has bias we have bias every media organization organization
00:09:43.200has bias do you think that project veritas has a bias and if it is would you say it's right
00:09:48.540leaning at all well i think we have less bias than anybody else because we don't color what
00:09:54.640we show you it's literally people's lips moving you can't you can't get less biased than that i
00:10:02.240I mean, the only argument you can make is why don't you investigate all the things?
00:10:06.920Well, that's kind of a non sequitur, though, isn't it?
00:10:09.440Because, I mean, no journalist investigates all the things.
00:10:13.160I mean, some of the most award-winning journalists in American history, like think of Seymour
00:10:53.120And he was saying things in his automobile to his colleague that he was saying directly contradicted his public policy stances.
00:10:59.960And as Veritas grows, you'll see us do a lot more stories. But the question behind your question is, you know, why do you want you seem more conservative? Listen, I mean, you'll generally have sources come to us with corruption in the government. And people say, well, left wing, right wing. Well, since when is the FBI left wing? CNN left wing? Is the New York Times left wing? Are pharmaceutical companies left wing? If so, when did that happen? And what's your definition of left?
00:11:28.400So we really have to revisit these definitions of both ideology and public policy as Veritas grows.
00:11:39.340And James, you talk about holding people with power to account and investigating them.
00:11:43.580I think one of the things that we would definitely all agree on is the tremendous power that social media and big tech companies currently have.
00:11:50.160And you've done a lot of work to expose some of the biases inherent in those companies.
00:13:41.360Because while I follow you and your content,
00:13:44.120I haven't seen every bit of content that you've produced.
00:13:46.480So I guess what I'm asking is what beyond that one interaction with this particular person, what have you found as a broader theme in terms of these big tech companies?
00:13:58.180More like what he said. And there's a kind of the problem is, is that, you know, in going back to my Pfizer example, it's my duty to report what these people are saying.
00:14:10.420And when you're censored for doing that, it creates a real catch-22 because in the case of Pfizer, people say, are you pro or anti-vaccine?
00:14:23.280It doesn't really matter what my opinion is on that.
00:14:29.060I don't have enough information really to even tell you what I think.
00:14:33.560But when Pfizer's number three or number four position in Washington, D.C., Vanessa Gellman was her name, and she was a top executive in the company, and she's saying in emails, we've got to hide information from our customers.
00:14:51.700We can't tell our customers that we use fetal cells in the development process of our vaccines.
00:14:57.360I have a responsibility to republish that information and to report it, especially if it's a secret.
00:15:04.220If they want to keep a secret from their customers, it's my duty to report that.
00:15:08.580And Instagram removed people's ability to tag Project Veritas and myself.
00:15:13.920That means you cannot tag us on Instagram.
00:15:16.820And there's a little box that shows up that says we've spread misinformation about COVID.
00:15:22.800And again, my question to these companies is – and by the way, I'm a very litigious individual. I like to sue. I like to defeat people who do sue me. We've never lost a case. So my question for these – and by the way, I can't sue Instagram and Twitter under this rule because of a federal law that shields these companies from immunity.
00:15:43.500I'm certainly not shielded from immunity when I make statements about people.
00:15:48.000But my question, and this is a rhetorical one because the answer we know, is what is misinformation about publishing an email from Pfizer's executive saying they want to hide information from people?
00:16:03.000So what you have is a twisted vortex which disincentivizes people from doing the right thing.
00:16:09.500It disincentivizes journalists from reporting truths unspoken, because when you do report the information that you're supposed to report, you get punished in the worst way in the 21st century to punish someone is to de-platform them.
00:16:25.320And that's why and that's really why we have the problems that we have.
00:16:28.880You know, when a Pfizer executive says, don't tell anybody this, what's the first thing going through my mind is I want to publish that information and I'm censored for it.
00:16:38.260That answers your question about the problem in big tech companies and the problem overall.
00:16:44.040Hey, Konstantin, do you want better mental health?
00:16:48.100I'm from Russia. We don't have mental health.
00:16:50.560So how do you deal with mental health?
00:16:52.480You drink vodka, then go out and wrestle bear.
00:16:55.520If you live, you feel better. If you die, you're not real man.
00:17:01.420It's Russian bear. It has no feelings.
00:17:03.720People don't always realize that physical symptoms like headaches, teeth grinding, and even digestive issues can be indicators of stress.
00:17:12.400And let's not forget about doom scrolling, not sleeping enough, sleeping too much, under-eating, and over-eating.
00:17:19.560Sleeping too much, under-eating, this is Western disease.
00:17:23.620Therapy has really helped me in my life to concentrate and focus.
00:17:27.380it's really important to have someone impartial who you can talk to about the
00:17:32.420tricky issues that you're struggling to deal with. Therapy has played a really
00:17:36.800important role in helping me to deal with my ADHD and become better in all
00:17:41.880areas of my life. Why is he telling them how weak he is? Drink vodka, feel better.
00:17:47.840BetterHelp is customized online therapy that offers video, phone and even live
00:17:53.760live chat sessions with your therapist so you don't have to see anyone on camera if you don't
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00:18:05.000trigger especially if they're not real men. That's b-e-t-t-e-r-h-e-l-p.com slash trigger.
00:18:15.880And James, why is it that mainstream media don't cover these particular topics? Why is it left to
00:18:22.960an organization like yours that started relatively recently why don't we get the big
00:18:29.360the big publications the big channels reporting on this this is public interest surely i would i
00:18:35.400would refer your audience to my book american muckraker which is probably the most comprehensive
00:18:40.460modern essays on the question you just asked is the entire subject of my book but in short
00:18:48.400In a nutshell, the press acts in a symbiotic relationship with these people in proximity to power through what Noam Chomsky referred to as a reciprocity of mutual interest.
00:19:22.960Second, what I said a moment ago is that if they publish the email from Vanessa Gelman, the ideological community and the tech companies would censor their information.
00:19:35.580So the easiest thing to do is to go with the grain, to not be censored.
00:19:41.580And there's sort of this sort of mutual reciprocity that exists in the government.
00:23:26.000You can't tag us on Instagram, which has been an enormous wound to us.
00:23:33.480We were gaining tens of thousands of followers a month.
00:23:36.180We haven't gained any followers in six months.
00:23:39.760So clearly, you know, that's the cause of that.
00:23:43.040The social media is the main distribution mechanism for everyone. Twitter is the main modern town square. The alternative platforms to have a fraction of a percent of reach is those. And all the major news organizations get their news information out through Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. And that that is the problem in modern society. You have a complete consolidization of information. And that is the censorship we speak of.
00:24:10.560Yeah, and that's really awful, because that's how I kind of initially came across your stuff. And to see that you're banned for quoting other people, I think it's insane. Whether people agree with what you do or not, it's just in a free society, that shouldn't happen. James, what has been the most shocking thing that you've discovered in the course of your investigations for you personally?
00:24:31.700many things uh top of my mind the fbi executing a search warrant against a press organization
00:24:40.020was was unbelievable oftentimes it's the reactions to our work that are more shocking than the actual
00:24:48.560revelations i mean i could i could list it would take me 30 minutes to list all the different
00:24:52.520things those things don't really shock me they sort of confirm suspicions we all anything you
00:24:58.900suspect it's probably the case right people do corrupt acts they they they lie they cheat they
00:25:06.400steal in fact one guy chris jackson colorado who is a progressive political activist quite
00:25:12.660we have to lie cheat and steal to win this election remarkably nobody reported on it so
00:25:20.460it's almost like the the reaction to what we do is 10 times more shocking to what we do
00:25:26.620um uh i mean i i mean in no particular order twitter story i i asked the guy who said
00:25:33.220mocking elon musk's uh asperger's he says he's special needs we can't take him seriously because
00:25:38.760he's special needs i asked him what he meant by that and he started running away from me
00:25:42.240hi alex i'm james o'keefe with project veritas oh my god and you are on hidden camera okay
00:28:07.340He ran down the street of New York City and into every business he ran to try to hide from me.
00:28:12.940but each owner of each of those businesses on the Upper West Side of New York City came out
00:28:17.780and expressed support for Project Veritas, which is itself insanely shocking because it's New York
00:28:23.620City and one would think that nobody likes us there. Apparently everyone does. So the FBI raiding
00:28:30.140my home, the prosecutors in New York have said that I'm, quote, not a journalist. And the judge
00:28:37.860asked them why. And the prosecutor said, Your Honor, James O'Keefe is not a journalist because
00:28:43.600he does not get permission and consent from the subjects he reports on. That was maybe the most
00:28:50.320shocking thing I've ever heard said in my entire life. Obviously, the definition of a journalist
00:28:55.300is to publish that which others don't want published. So for line prosecutors in the United
00:29:02.300States of America to be telling judges that we're not journalists because we don't get
00:29:07.440cooperation and permission from the fraudsters we report on, that was shocking. That was a wake-up
00:29:13.960call for me to have FBI agents point guns at me in my apartment, put me in handcuffs and take my
00:29:20.160phones and notebooks. That should be a shock to everyone. It was a shock to the American
00:29:25.140Civil Liberties Union, which is considered a more liberal left-leaning organization,
00:29:29.340but even they were like, whoa. So, I mean, I could go on for 30 minutes listening all the
00:29:35.120shocking things that have happened. I think the problem in modern society, it's actually
00:29:38.460very hard to shock anybody these days. 20 years ago, everyone would be shocked by everything that
00:29:44.700happens to us. But these days, people sort of shrug their shoulders. And I think that the
00:29:49.500tragedy right now we have is that it's all about hurting the other guy. Everyone is on the team,
00:29:54.920And it's all about hurting the other team.
00:29:59.100So people view that through that lens.
00:30:02.280Information is less powerful and the images are less powerful than they used to be.
00:30:08.360And I think the new currency, the new rarity is going to be courage.
00:30:14.480And that's why our motto is be brave, because we want these whistleblowers to come forward
00:30:18.880and show the world that they're going to have to give up their jobs and their livelihoods
00:30:24.560bring these truths to the public. But you must be heartened, James, at the reaction that your work
00:30:30.340gets, the number of people who engage with it, the people who enjoy your content and feel that
00:30:36.220it has real value. Oh, I'm an optimist. I think we're going to win. I just think it's incredibly
00:30:42.480painful. And that's why I call the first chapter of my book Suffering, because we need people to
00:30:50.320actually do what I do. I mean, I need people to follow. I mean, I can do it, my undercover
00:30:56.060journalists, but what the FBI whistleblower did was incredibly heartening. In fact, the most
00:31:00.860heartening thing I've ever seen was the FBI whistleblower. I cannot obviously tell you who
00:31:06.420this was, but we interviewed them in the shadows. This person actually brought me a secret document
00:31:13.260from my case that said on news media, which contradicts what the prosecutor said,
00:31:19.760And this person said to me the following statement, they said, I said, why are people doing all this stuff in the government and going along with it?
00:31:27.780And he said, because they want the paycheck and they want the pension.
00:31:31.300And he said, the paycheck and the pension, that mentality will eventually lead to the Holocaust.
00:31:40.120And he said that when FBI training, they actually go to the Holocaust Museum.
00:31:44.020They go to the Martin Luther King Memorial for a day to remind the agents, don't do this stuff, guys.
00:31:50.900But it's just like Jordan Peterson says, inch by inch, they push the goalpost inch by inch.
00:31:55.480Now they're pointing guns at journalists in the United States of America.
00:31:59.820OK, and I'm confident that we must win.
00:32:06.680If I don't win this case with the FBI in New York, don't raid a journalist's home and take their stuff because you don't like what they're doing.
00:33:08.000So I'm optimistic, but I understand it's trench warfare.
00:33:12.060Yeah. And James, you talk about all these Rubicons being crossed, and I completely agree with you.
00:33:15.680I don't think the law enforcement should be harassing journalists in the way that they have been.
00:33:20.680Not just in your case, we have similar situations happening here in the UK as well.
00:33:25.480Do you think that's happening for the reason that you mentioned earlier, which is everything is about Team Red, Team Blue?
00:33:31.220And if you think it's the other team that's doing this, then no laws can be upheld.
00:33:38.160You just do what you need to do as opposed to what the Constitution says or what the laws say.
00:33:43.480Yes, precisely. You said it better than I could.
00:33:45.780It's all about whose team you're on and whose ox you're perceived to be goring.
00:33:51.320There's no semblance of justice or logic or principle.
00:33:57.020Glenn Greenwald wrote a great article about this, The Death of Principle. You mentioned, I think it's one of your Guardian reporters in the UK, is getting secret warrants. It's all about good off with his head. This is the sentiment you hear, guillotine James O'Keefe, right? Put him in jail.
00:34:15.340In fact, most people want to incarcerate the people that are politically opposed to them.
00:34:41.360It that's why I was so heartened to see the ACLU come to our defense. I was heartened to see the reporters committee come to our defense in these cases, because there are certain fundamental principles here at stake that we all have to unite behind.
00:34:58.480And maybe that is the mission of Project Veritas after all, which is to find the areas of consensus in society.
00:35:05.500And whatever that narrowing Venn diagram is where we all agree that this is wrong, this is unconscionable.
00:35:13.220There's a great book called The Custodians of Conscience, which I cite in American Muckraker.
00:35:19.180We test and affirm what is and what is not an outrage to 85% of people.
00:35:25.460Is there anything that we're still united on?
00:35:27.740Of course there is. Of course there is. That's narrowing. But if we lose that consensus in American society, we're in trouble. And that is the role of a journalist ultimately is to create that consensus. And sometimes they have to push too far like they did with the FBI raid for people like, whoa, people on the left like, I don't want that to happen to me under Donald Trump or DeSantis.
00:35:53.080I don't want them to point guns at me and take my notebooks.