TRIGGERnometry - Remi Adekoya on Black Identity Politics, Racism, White Privilege & Populism

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:10.000 I'm Constantin Kissin.

00:00:11.000 And this is the show for you if you're bored of people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

00:00:17.000 At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:00:22.000 Our fantastic expert guest this week is a journalist and a researcher at Sheffield University.

00:00:27.000 Remy Adekoya, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:29.000 thanks for coming on we really look forward to talking to you and before we

00:00:42.320 get into the meat and the substance of what we talked about tell us a little

00:00:44.780 bit about how you're here what's been your background just a little bit about

00:00:48.500 that for our viewers so they know who you are well I was born in Nigeria to a

00:00:52.780 Nigerian father and a Polish mother I grew up in Nigeria went to a primary

00:00:57.480 Secondary School in Nigeria. And then after that, in the late 90s, I moved to Poland, which was

00:01:04.420 where my mom was from. I went to university in Poland, first studied law, but couldn't find

00:01:10.320 myself as a lawyer. And then later on, moved into journalism, became a political journalist in

00:01:16.120 Poland. I really enjoyed that. But I decided to move to the UK about three years ago and do a PhD

00:01:24.200 here in politics in political science so that's um that's about it and we talked a little bit about

00:01:31.320 what you're researching you talked about group identity which is something we'll touch on i'm

00:01:35.700 sure and uh but tell us a little bit about your political kind of evolution how you came to have

00:01:41.220 the views that we'll be talking about a little bit as well well which views exactly do you know

00:01:45.440 well uh why don't we just get into the views then i'll be a lot easier uh for anyone who hasn't

00:01:50.080 discovered remy until this point you wrote an article for you write for the guardian as well

00:01:54.100 but you wrote an article for quillette which i think got a lot of people's attention including

00:01:58.380 ours and for anyone who hasn't read it we'll put it in in the in the youtube below but tell us a

00:02:04.020 little bit about what was the kind of the just the crux of your article for anyone who hasn't seen it

00:02:07.980 well the crux of the article was essentially was based on a conversation essentially i had with a

00:02:12.540 friend of mine a black friend of mine and it was about how uh we discuss race when i say we i mean

00:02:19.400 black people in public and in private and how there's a big difference usually. And there are

00:02:26.100 calculations which are made regarding what we should say in public and what we shouldn't say

00:02:31.700 in public. These calculations are essentially based on how many black people view our interests.

00:02:40.980 So essentially, I'd say maybe on self-preservative instincts, like I wrote in the article about how,

00:02:45.900 okay, I was talking to this friend of mine, and he was complaining about a black friend of his

00:02:50.600 at the workplace who sort of, you know, plays the race card anytime there's a difficult situation

00:02:56.560 with a white person, yeah? The friend is like, friend of my friend, is like, oh, you know,

00:03:01.480 bring out the race card, and most likely, 99 percent of the time, a white person will back

00:03:06.340 down. So my friend told me, oh, he finds this disgusting, doesn't like it, this is completely

00:03:12.280 wrong, et cetera. And in this conversation we're having, I said, yeah, exactly. So that's why we

00:03:17.060 have to start criticizing this, you know, black identitarians and people sort of, you know,

00:03:21.600 trying to essentially leverage some of the horrors which our ancestors went through

00:03:29.240 for some form of advantage today. Okay. And then my friend said, well, actually,

00:03:36.140 I don't agree with you on that, you know, and I'm like, you know, why? But you just said now

00:03:41.400 that you don't like people leveraging race like this.

00:03:46.260 And he says, yeah, but actually, if you look at the big picture, you'll find out that,

00:03:49.900 look, he says, look, let's think about it.

00:03:52.060 How many of us black people are there here in the UK?

00:03:54.300 OK, about 5% of the population.

00:03:56.720 Do we have a lot of economic and political power?

00:03:59.460 No, we don't.

00:04:00.480 OK, that's the reality.

00:04:02.420 Now, what is actually preventing the white population, about 87%, who control almost

00:04:07.900 all the political and economic power from actually dominating us overtly, my friend

00:04:12.940 asks me. The only thing that's stopping them from doing that is the fear of being called

00:04:16.820 racist, yeah, is political correctness, is the restraint which has been placed on them

00:04:22.260 by society regarding how they should talk to minorities, yeah? And he says that's the

00:04:27.580 only saving grace we actually have. And he says, take that away, and what do we have?

00:04:32.040 Take that away, and we could have a situation like we had in the 70s and the 80s, okay,

00:04:35.700 where people on the road are, you know, using the N-word freely.

00:04:39.000 And don't feel afraid to do that because there's, you know,

00:04:42.600 no social ostracism, no social consequences from doing that.

00:04:45.620 So people are going to be doing it.

00:04:47.520 And he's like, what was interesting here,

00:04:49.000 my friend, who is a very intelligent guy,

00:04:51.140 a very successful banker in a city in London,

00:04:54.080 said it's not because, you know, white people are evil

00:04:56.180 or something like that, but he said that's simply human nature.

00:04:59.160 If you put people in a position of dominance

00:05:01.460 over another group of people and there are no checks, okay,

00:05:05.280 they are going to abuse that position so his argument is essentially that you need white guilt

00:05:11.300 to protect minorities yes that without white guilt we'd be in a much more difficult situation

00:05:17.700 here and essentially you know white people sort of wouldn't have any restraints towards you know

00:05:22.640 talking to us anyhow or using exploiting that advantage which they do have over us in numbers

00:05:28.140 in political power in economic power etc so he's like you know that's the only restraint so he sees

00:05:34.280 that as a sort of necessary evil. He's like, I don't like it. Aesthetically, morally, I don't

00:05:40.760 really like it, but I think we need it, you know, in order to protect ourselves, because it's all

00:05:45.380 we've got. If we let go of that, if we black people start criticizing identity politics,

00:05:51.020 black identitarians, then, and mainstream white society says, well, you know, since it seems that

00:05:56.040 even black people don't agree with these identitarians, then, you know, maybe why bother

00:05:59.880 with this whole, you know, political correctness thing? And he's like looking at that in the long

00:06:03.760 term, it's actually going to be bad for us. And what do you make of that argument? Sorry,

00:06:08.080 Francis. Look, that argument, I'd be lying if I told you at that argument, I was like, oh,

00:06:14.120 that's rubbish. It's an argument which made me think. I actually, you know, started imagining

00:06:19.060 certain scenarios. I started actually thinking, OK, fine. What if tomorrow now, you know,

00:06:24.340 political correctness was simply, you know, dubbed unnecessary by mainstream white society?

00:06:30.300 Because there's obviously already a segment of society which says it's rubbish. But I'm talking

00:06:33.580 of mainstream majority, 60%, 70% of the people. What if they actually said political correctness

00:06:38.480 is rubbish? Actually, we should be able to say anything we like, more or less, to black

00:06:44.020 people, et cetera. Would that be a more pleasant environment for me to live in, being a minority

00:06:50.320 here in numbers? I can't imagine it being, yeah, if that were to be the case, if it were

00:06:55.940 to go in that direction that people would want to exploit that advantage. So, like I

00:07:02.400 said, I couldn't—I definitely didn't, you know, think what my friend was saying was

00:07:05.700 rubbish, but I thought about it.

00:07:07.620 And the thing is, you know, maybe it's—I don't know, maybe it's naive or something,

00:07:11.660 but based on my experiences with—especially people here in the U.K., because I've had

00:07:18.080 different experiences also in Poland, that's a different kettle of fish.

00:07:21.780 But based on my experience with people here in the U.K., I do believe fundamentally that

00:07:26.460 a majority of the white population here does not have racist instincts and would not exploit

00:07:33.160 to their advantage, yeah, if, you know, the whole race thing and the numbers advantage they have

00:07:40.100 and the political advantage they have, if, say, political correctness theoretically was to

00:07:44.700 disappear. That's what I believe, that there's a fundamental decency in most people who live here.

00:07:50.240 I believe that two, three hundred percent, based on experiences which I've had, based on experiences

00:07:55.880 I'm married to a Nigerian wife.

00:07:57.060 My wife is 100% Nigerian.

00:07:58.680 She's actually lived in the U.K. a bit longer than me,

00:08:01.180 counting the intervals and all that.

00:08:03.200 And based on her experience also, you know,

00:08:05.440 based on things we talk about,

00:08:07.100 based on the experiences of some other people,

00:08:09.120 when we actually sit down and talk,

00:08:11.040 because, you know, sometimes black people

00:08:13.180 may complain about racism here,

00:08:15.120 but, you know, when we sit down, when I say we,

00:08:17.180 when we black people sit down in the room,

00:08:19.140 you know, and I'm like, yeah, but guys, come on,

00:08:20.900 you know, these people really, they're not that bad.

00:08:22.820 They're actually pretty tolerant, you know.

00:08:25.880 They're actually pretty tolerant.

00:08:27.300 They're like, yeah, yeah, of course we know, you know.

00:08:29.860 But, you know, we can't, we shouldn't sort of say that out.

00:08:34.120 We sort of have to keep up that moral pressure, yeah,

00:08:36.580 just to make sure they don't one day take it into their heads

00:08:39.600 to start exploiting those advantages of us

00:08:42.240 and treating us the way they used to treat us 20, 30 years ago.

00:08:45.180 So it's not like people don't know this.

00:08:47.160 It's not like a lot of people who might even, you know,

00:08:49.500 retweet black identitarians, you know, for lack of a better term,

00:08:52.920 post on Twitter saying, maybe not the most radical ones, but let's just say something

00:08:58.520 sort of insinuating that there's a lot of racism in the UK. It's not like every black person who

00:09:03.480 retweets that actually really believes it's that bad, okay? But it's just part of, you know,

00:09:08.920 keeping up this pressure and part of, you know, trying to sort of protect ourselves from this

00:09:14.860 white power, which a lot of people actually fear, you know? And as I argued in the piece,

00:09:21.660 that's historical reasons of course for that fear but doesn't the rise of

00:09:26.460 something of someone like Trump in the US mean that their fears are actually

00:09:31.420 well-founded because although obviously I'm not black I'm half Latin American

00:09:35.760 and when Trump came out and did this speech and talked about Mexicans and

00:09:40.080 said you know illegal immigrants some of them are racist no summer summer

00:09:43.920 sorry some of them are rapists immediately I had a sinking sensation

00:09:47.540 inside and if I went to the US in certain areas I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking Spanish which

00:09:53.360 is my second language of course and that you know there's no pretending I know we'd be silly to

00:09:59.460 pretend here that is you know no such thing as racism oh it's a very you know marginal thing

00:10:04.320 which you know only five percent of the white population you know subscribe to and all that

00:10:09.620 no that's not the way it is it's something which is very real and exists among more than five or

00:10:16.780 10 percent of the white population in standard, let's say, Western society. So, of course,

00:10:22.420 that exists. And Trump, paradoxically, has only strengthened, you know, identity politics among

00:10:30.420 minority, minority sort of intellectuals, because they're like, see, we told you guys. You guys

00:10:36.620 were saying these white people, you know, that they're not that racist, they're not that bad,

00:10:40.540 et cetera, et cetera. Now, do you see? Look who they voted for. They voted for a guy who

00:10:45.000 said all the things he said. So even the black people before—I focus here on black people.

00:10:50.280 That's the community I know, obviously the other minority groups—even the black people before,

00:10:55.000 who were sort of neutral or didn't buy into those narratives that, oh, essentially every second

00:11:01.020 white person is racist, you know, sort of now feel sometimes a little bit silly, thinking,

00:11:07.120 ah, actually, I was naive, yeah? It seems these white folks are actually pretty racist. I mean,

00:11:11.560 And they did vote for this Trump guy who said all those things.

00:11:14.760 So, you know, maybe I was the one who was naive and not these identity politics guys.

00:11:19.180 Yeah.

00:11:20.180 Maybe they were the ones who were right.

00:11:21.180 Yeah.

00:11:22.180 And there are some others who say, yeah, well, of course, you know, Trump doesn't represent

00:11:25.420 all white people, et cetera, et cetera.

00:11:27.580 But since there is such a political force right now, we definitely need to stand on

00:11:32.180 the side of our people, OK, and defend our people who are being attacked by this kind

00:11:39.240 of politics.

00:11:40.240 So even if we don't agree 90 or much less 100 percent with the black identitarians,

00:11:45.920 we definitely need to hold the line with them, because, you know, these are the guys fighting

00:11:49.240 for us.

00:11:50.240 Definitely, Trump is not fighting for us, and the people who support Trump are definitely

00:11:53.900 not fighting for us.

00:11:55.900 So it's sort of a—it's bad for people like me—bad is a strong word.

00:12:01.520 It's difficult for people like me, because now there's a line drawn, yeah?

00:12:04.420 So you say, you know, are you with them, or are you with us?

00:12:07.340 Yeah.

00:12:08.340 with the Trump folk who are saying the things they're saying? Or are you with us who are trying

00:12:13.360 to, you know, sort of resist the Trump folk, you know? So it's tricky right now.

00:12:20.160 Well, it's a polarizing effect of Trump. It pushes everyone into the corner, doesn't it?

00:12:24.660 But I mean, in terms of, it's interesting because Donald, one of the things Donald Trump

00:12:28.160 always talks about is that black unemployment is the lowest that it's been for decades or

00:12:32.740 or wherever, I think. And, you know, Donald Trump got more of the ethnic minority vote than any of

00:12:39.000 the previous Republican candidates for decades as well. Not necessarily. He got 29% of the

00:12:46.740 Hispanic vote, which is roughly the percentage any Republican candidate gets. It's roughly what

00:12:52.520 McCain got. McCain even got more, I think, if I remember correctly. So he didn't get a larger

00:12:57.360 percentage of the Hispanic vote, he didn't get a larger percentage of the black vote.

00:13:03.120 What happened was that much fewer minority voters, especially black voters, came out

00:13:09.040 to vote in 2016 for Hillary Clinton.

00:13:12.040 They simply stayed at home, OK?

00:13:14.680 So when Obama was there, and even when Clinton was there, OK, Bill Clinton, I mean, sort

00:13:20.720 of minority voters, black voters were more mobilized to come out and vote.

00:13:24.300 But Hillary Clinton was not able to mobilise ethnic minority voters, especially black voters.

00:13:29.720 So it's not necessarily the case that Trump got a higher percentage of those, you know,

00:13:33.980 that minority vote than a regular Republican candidate would get.

00:13:37.500 But Hillary Clinton got less than definitely what Obama got in 2008 and 2012.

00:13:43.680 And do you think the rise of identity politics is a positive thing?

00:13:47.300 Do you think it's helped us, it's made us more aware, or do you think it's ultimately

00:13:51.060 quite divisive?

00:13:52.060 What do you mean by us?

00:13:54.340 Sorry, as in all of us, society.

00:13:58.440 Okay.

00:13:59.340 So it's important to know what you're talking about.

00:14:02.060 Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:14:02.920 Definitely, if you say all of us, society, has identity politics helped us,

00:14:10.160 I would say, you know, first of all, it depends, you know,

00:14:15.080 how we define this identity politics.

00:14:16.760 Now, if we define, for instance, what Martin Luther King was doing in the late 60s as identity politics, and there are definitions of identity politics by which we could describe that as identity politics, in the sense of focusing on the interests of a specific ethnic group, and articulating those interests in political fashion, but these were interests of a specific ethnic group, which he was focused on.

00:14:46.760 Later on, he actually started talking a lot about poverty and all that, which encompass all ethnic groups.

00:14:52.620 But let's just say most of his work, and definitely what he's associated with, is on defending black interests.

00:14:58.740 That's the way it is.

00:15:00.720 If we describe that as identity politics, then I would definitely say it has helped,

00:15:06.340 because it brought a larger degree of fairness in U.S. society for a specific group of people.

00:15:12.100 No one would criticize the civil rights movement today.

00:15:14.480 I mean, some would.

00:15:16.760 France is mine

00:15:18.020 we'll have a talk about that

00:15:22.120 anyway guys

00:15:25.320 it's been nice knowing you

00:15:26.260 I'm off

00:15:27.580 France's career is over now

00:15:31.080 which makes me incredibly happy

00:15:32.720 you know

00:15:34.540 so yeah

00:15:35.860 again

00:15:37.860 if we look at that

00:15:38.840 obviously when we talk about identity policies

00:15:42.900 today we are not thinking about that

00:15:44.160 we are thinking about

00:15:45.600 identitarian politics. I don't want to start naming names and, you know, people basically

00:15:50.020 coming out and, you know, bringing up terms like, you know, white privilege and white

00:15:54.100 fragility. And essentially, you know, if a white person doesn't agree with our, as let's

00:16:01.460 say me, a black person's definition of racism, that means that black, that white person is

00:16:06.440 racist. Yeah. Which is absolute rubbish in my own opinion. So that kind of identity

00:16:12.000 politics, of focusing sort of solely, because even when Martin Luther King was articulating

00:16:17.460 his arguments for why black people should be treated fair in America, his arguments

00:16:24.780 were based on a broad understanding of universal human rights in America.

00:16:30.440 He was essentially saying, look, the American Constitution said all men are created equal.

00:16:36.160 So how come it seems now that that doesn't apply to black men?

00:16:39.580 Yeah.

00:16:40.300 Okay.

00:16:40.600 So he was essentially sort of appealing to a universal human rights, universal sense of decency.

00:16:48.940 Let's just call it that, what it is.

00:16:51.680 Right now, we don't have that.

00:16:53.420 There's no appeal that, oh, well, actually, we just want, you know, black people to be treated how everybody else is treated and all that.

00:17:01.740 It's more essentially like, oh, well, you know, there's this loads of bad things which have happened.

00:17:06.580 slavery, colonialism, racism, institutionalized racism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. Black people

00:17:14.000 have, you know, suffered from this. White people, it seems, don't want to recognize this. And,

00:17:18.340 you know, sometimes I wonder, you know, when they say sort of like white people don't want

00:17:22.020 to recognize this, which white people are you talking about? Is it until every single white

00:17:25.540 person on this planet Earth acknowledges the evils of racism, slavery, etc., that we will

00:17:32.440 finally say oh yeah aha okay now it's okay because i mean what how many white people have to

00:17:37.620 acknowledge these things for it to be accepted that oh white people have acknowledged these

00:17:41.780 things i don't know if you're following the argument i'm making yes absolutely so it's like

00:17:47.000 what do you need you need 99 95 or is 92 okay yeah yeah because you know i would definitely

00:17:53.620 argue that a majority definitely in western societies have acknowledged this okay and

00:17:58.940 There have been books written about this.

00:18:00.240 There have been films made about this.

00:18:01.740 Even laws which are created, for instance, in the country.

00:18:05.640 I mean, governments speak about this.

00:18:07.160 That's what I mean.

00:18:07.540 Well, Tony Blair apologised for racism many years ago.

00:18:09.860 Tony Blair apologised for racism.

00:18:10.780 Not for racism, for slavery.

00:18:12.120 For slavery.

00:18:13.240 Theresa May, there was a government report which came out last,

00:18:17.580 I think it was 2017,

00:18:19.560 talking about disparities in socioeconomic outcomes.

00:18:23.460 Yeah.

00:18:23.580 And the report very clearly stated that, look,

00:18:27.180 there is a link here between race and huge disparities in socioeconomic outcomes, okay,

00:18:33.900 in the UK regarding employment, regarding housing, et cetera. And we need to tackle this, okay? This

00:18:41.180 is a Tory government for God's sake. And they've acknowledged that. So what else do you want sort

00:18:48.140 of? How many people have to say, oh yes, this is a problem, we acknowledge it. But it's a clever

00:18:53.300 argument from their point of view

00:18:54.760 because they can actually push the argument

00:18:57.420 until the last white man

00:18:59.120 acknowledges that slavery was

00:19:01.420 bad, racism

00:19:03.340 was bad, etc., which they know is never going to happen.

00:19:06.360 Okay? Which they know

00:19:07.320 is never going to happen. There are always going to be white people

00:19:09.340 who are going to try and, oh, well, you know,

00:19:11.440 well, you know, maybe not exactly

00:19:13.320 or maybe it wasn't that bad and all that.

00:19:15.280 There are people who hold such views.

00:19:18.020 So it's an argument

00:19:19.120 which they can essentially push for eternity.

00:19:22.400 So it's a very clever tactic in order to essentially advance their agenda, whatever that agenda is.

00:19:27.500 Definitely, because you can always point, you can always find racists.

00:19:30.720 Yeah.

00:19:31.060 Always.

00:19:31.780 You can always say, oh, well, they say that racism doesn't exist in the West anymore,

00:19:36.160 but look at what Politician A said, and look at what Minister X said.

00:19:40.680 Is that not racism?

00:19:41.820 Yeah.

00:19:42.140 Which shows you there's still a problem, okay?

00:19:45.240 so it's then magnified and portrayed as a problem as in something which affects or that these are

00:19:51.840 views shared by a large group of people whereas it's one individual for instance who made a

00:19:58.180 statement you know i think part of the problem for me is is that how we don't discuss it like

00:20:05.160 your article i loved i thought it was brilliant and i said to constantine this is great we need

00:20:09.840 we need to get you on the show and i shared it with one of my friends who's mixed race yeah

00:20:13.740 we have never spoken about it

00:20:16.240 and he has never

00:20:18.260 mentioned it or

00:20:19.460 any shape or form and

00:20:21.960 did you feel a pushback

00:20:24.080 from that article

00:20:25.840 from to be

00:20:28.120 honest

00:20:28.640 there are a lot of people

00:20:31.800 who really know

00:20:33.820 what's going on and see the BS

00:20:36.160 of the identitarians

00:20:37.240 so the answer to your question is that

00:20:40.240 the overwhelming majority

00:20:42.320 of, like, let's say the people on my social media feed, et cetera,

00:20:45.760 black people, et cetera, didn't, you know, criticize me for that

00:20:49.240 or say, oh, that's wrong, we disagree with that, okay?

00:20:52.680 Some openly said, pfft, that's exactly what I thought all this while, okay?

00:20:57.220 Some kept quiet, but definitely didn't, like, unfollow me

00:21:00.480 or something like that.

00:21:01.300 I mean, continued engagement with me.

00:21:03.840 And, but there were definitely a few who, one term which I'd remember,

00:21:08.420 which, you know, I'd be pretty, you know, we all try to act as if,

00:21:10.640 know we're tough and we don't care what other people say and all that and all that which is

00:21:14.440 generally the way it should be but it's not the way you know emotionally we are as people yeah

00:21:18.940 so when for instance you know someone who had been a good friend of mine at least you know

00:21:25.520 social media and all that you know told me oh they were disappointed in me for writing that

00:21:29.000 I'd be lying if I said you know that didn't make me sort of like

00:21:33.820 hmm, like, wow, let me rethink actually what I just said and what might be the effects for people.

00:21:43.680 Because, you know, it's easy to write something, but there are consequences for what you write,

00:21:48.840 especially if, let's say, the article, you know, is read by more than a few people.

00:21:53.080 There are real consequences for people in real life, or at least they may perceive,

00:21:57.200 those people may perceive that there may be consequences.

00:22:00.120 So what I'm essentially saying is that there were only a few people who sort of, you know,

00:22:06.160 pushed back and said, you know, this is wrong, of which I said the most sort of, the one

00:22:12.440 that, you know, really sort of, you know, made me stop and, you know, I think to everyone

00:22:15.140 and I said, oh, I'm disappointed in you, in the sense I expected more from you.

00:22:19.080 But then I sat down and thought about it and said, okay, what does this actually mean?

00:22:23.660 What does this person actually mean?

00:22:25.040 What they actually mean is that I know what they mean.

00:22:27.640 As a black person, I know how, I know the conversations that go on, you know, when there are no white people in the room.

00:22:35.040 I know, I know, I know what, what they essentially mean is that, look, we know, okay, what you wrote is the way it is.

00:22:46.000 But at the end of the day, we can't trust these people, okay?

00:22:51.240 We know what they've done to us in the past.

00:22:53.940 We know what some of them are saying about us today.

00:22:57.300 So how can you sort of reveal outside some of the strategies and tactics which we use in order to defend ourselves against them?

00:23:07.600 Okay.

00:23:08.020 So it's essentially based on a fundamental emotional, very often, mistrust.

00:23:13.840 Okay.

00:23:14.600 That, look, at the end of the day, this is why people don't really like us too much.

00:23:19.100 Okay.

00:23:19.680 They might pretend.

00:23:20.980 They might smile.

00:23:22.720 They might even, because of certain laws, act as if they do, maybe even give us a couple of jobs, et cetera, et cetera.

00:23:30.000 But fundamentally, in their deepest heart of hearts, these white people don't really like us too much for some reason.

00:23:39.620 That's a strong belief which is held among many, many, again, I'm speaking black people,

00:23:47.180 some super intelligent with huge degrees and all that and all that, even very successful.

00:23:53.640 It's a fundamental belief which is deep down.

00:23:55.700 It's something which is emotional, OK?

00:23:57.840 You can try to—you can't intellectualize it.

00:24:02.060 You can't argue with it on an intellectual level, you know.

00:24:04.720 It's something which is based on emotion.

00:24:06.280 Let me say, for instance, you know, this might—probably a flawed analogy,

00:24:12.020 a hugely flawed analogy, but it's the way, for instance, people in Israel, Jews, might

00:24:18.560 react to, you know, talk of, you know, surrounding, you know, the Holocaust, or people's sort

00:24:24.240 of, you know, anti-Semitic remarks, et cetera, you know.

00:24:29.460 There is definitely, I would argue, a feeling there among many Israeli Jews that, look,

00:24:34.940 generally the group is under some kind of threat.

00:24:38.200 We have a lot of enemies, okay?

00:24:40.140 There are people who hate us.

00:24:42.080 There are people who want to see us exterminated, in fact, from this earth.

00:24:46.560 And we have to be wary of them, OK?

00:24:49.700 We have to always be conscious of that, that these enemies exist.

00:24:53.880 A lot of people don't like us.

00:24:55.320 It's a feeling which exists, I think you guys would agree with me.

00:24:58.640 Even sometimes among intellectuals also, you know, Jewish intellectuals, etc.,

00:25:02.680 who theoretically, we would say, should know that, oh, you can't generalise like that.

00:25:06.760 But, you know, these are emotions.

00:25:08.520 I think people feel it in the Labour Party at the moment.

00:25:10.660 That's it.

00:25:11.520 So, yeah.

00:25:12.900 So, these things exist.

00:25:16.440 So, these feelings among black people, very often, it's emotional.

00:25:19.060 It's based from that something, you know, we've read those books about slavery.

00:25:22.180 We've read those books about colonialism and all those things which happened, you know.

00:25:26.040 And, of course, another point which is not usually erased today, which I know exists,

00:25:32.780 is that a lot of our, let's say, what's the word I would use for it now?

00:25:41.340 Not suspicion in this case, but awareness, we could say.

00:25:49.040 And let's even say bringing in some resentment into it

00:25:52.660 is because of the fact that we haven't been able to, as black people,

00:25:58.780 build many, or some might even argue any, successful black nations, powerful black nations, okay?

00:26:06.360 I guarantee you that if there were, say, five or six African economies, you know,

00:26:13.400 two, three trillion dollar GDP economies with powerful armies, with nuclear weapons,

00:26:20.040 believe me, black people wouldn't be half as sensitive to some of these debates and some of

00:26:25.720 these, let's say, insults which flow around as they are today. Okay? So that aggressive reaction

00:26:33.300 also often stems from essentially a sense of fundamental weakness, group weakness. Okay?

00:26:41.740 There are obviously some hugely successful individual black people. There's the Obamas,

00:26:45.580 there's the Oprah Winfrey's, the African billionaires, popular African musicians, et cetera.

00:26:50.540 Okay? There's no doubt about that. Professionals, lawyers, et cetera. But as a group,

00:26:54.660 if you're thinking in group terms, there is a sense of fundamental weakness there, okay?

00:27:00.200 And that is what also sometimes makes these reactions over-sensitive, yeah?

00:27:05.820 Which, you know, because it's like, you know, if there's a classroom

00:27:08.920 and a guy who is one of the, you know, school boys who is, you know, really big,

00:27:15.220 he's got muscles, et cetera, if, let's say, one of the smaller boys, you know, taunts him,

00:27:19.140 you know, he essentially laughs it off.

00:27:20.380 He doesn't take it serious, you know.

00:27:22.920 but if it goes the other way around and it's the muscular jock let's say who taunts the smaller

00:27:30.800 skinny boy the smaller skinny boy feels it much more and he will react much more emotionally to

00:27:36.080 it because he's in that position of disadvantage and he doesn't feel strong yeah you know yeah i

00:27:42.180 see it quite a lot with venezuelan people because of what's happening in venezuela and the fact that

00:27:47.480 country has been so chronically mismanaged and as a result that there there is that sense of you

00:27:53.160 know frustration and also a sense of inferiority and what's and also when you talk with venezuelan

00:27:59.160 people there's a sense sometimes a sense of almost hopelessness of like we we can't make it work for

00:28:07.400 whatever reason i don't know if that's been your experience of what you've just discussed that's

00:28:11.480 just been mine when i talk to venezuelan people because of everything that's happening in latin

00:28:15.560 in America and the fact that the vast majority

00:28:17.580 of countries simply

00:28:18.620 aren't functioning

00:28:20.540 I find that surprising

00:28:22.960 I mean Venezuela obviously we know

00:28:25.100 the case but I'm surprised you say that

00:28:27.540 might be happening in Latin America

00:28:29.300 because there are countries they're doing very well

00:28:31.380 I mean Brazil is generally doing

00:28:33.140 not badly

00:28:33.840 but economically I know that

00:28:36.960 they've made huge strides

00:28:38.160 Chile socio-economically is not doing bad at all

00:28:41.420 and there are a couple of other examples

00:28:43.460 like that too so I'm surprised you would say

00:28:45.080 Do you think it's a regional thing or it's just a country?

00:28:48.020 Maybe just a country, maybe just a regional thing,

00:28:50.340 but certainly the issue with corruption and mismanagement,

00:28:53.020 and mainly because I talk about it from a Venezuelan point of view

00:28:55.420 and the fact that it's so wealthy, like a lot of African countries.

00:28:58.620 But all rich, of course.

00:28:59.700 But because of corruption and mismanagement, it's imploding, in a sense.

00:29:04.660 Yeah.

00:29:05.140 Marim, you know what I was thinking as you were talking?

00:29:06.960 I mean, it makes a lot of sense what you're saying,

00:29:09.580 and I couldn't blame a black person for feeling the resentment

00:29:13.620 and given everything that's happened.

00:29:16.800 But it is tragic when you describe it in that way

00:29:19.480 because I feel like fundamentally I don't see a way out of that,

00:29:24.140 of what you're talking about.

00:29:25.580 If essentially what you're saying is black people get together

00:29:29.480 and they know that what you're saying in your article is true,

00:29:33.200 but they don't want to admit it because they're afraid and resentful,

00:29:37.640 even though I guess we would be in agreement

00:29:40.700 that society is improving in terms of its treatment of minorities

00:29:43.540 and so on. I don't see a way out of that.

00:29:47.240 I do. The way out of that is in black group success, not just individual success, in group

00:29:54.420 success. As I told you, look, at the end of the day, the key to all of this is Africa,

00:30:00.120 okay? Because Africa is the black continent. That is the only continent where essentially

00:30:06.000 black people are the ones running the show. Now, black thinkers, going back to Marcos

00:30:12.560 Garvey, fellow Nicolak Pokuti, a personal hero of mine who was a Nigerian musician and

00:30:20.080 political activist, said this 50 years ago.

00:30:22.980 They said, look, as long as Africa is not successful, the black person will not be respected

00:30:28.600 anywhere in the world.

00:30:30.480 Okay?

00:30:31.080 This is the prerequisite for blacks to be respected anywhere in the world.

00:30:35.200 There must be at least a couple of indisputably successful.

00:30:40.440 Not, ah, well, you know, if we compare it to where it was 20 years ago

00:30:43.940 and that kind of relative kind of success.

00:30:45.940 We're talking about indisputable success, okay?

00:30:48.760 A France success, a Germany success, or a Japan success, or a China success,

00:30:53.540 where nobody can argue and say it is anything other than a success.

00:30:57.060 That's what we're talking about here.

00:30:58.600 Now, that must happen.

00:31:01.200 At least a couple of countries, yeah?

00:31:03.180 There's over 50 countries there, even if it's just four, five, six countries, okay?

00:31:08.200 that people can look at and say, look, these countries, good health care, good economies,

00:31:13.580 strong armies, et cetera. Success, like I said, the way we understand it here. Number one,

00:31:19.820 what that will do, the people there on the ground, let's say in Africa, obviously will have much

00:31:24.520 better lives. Two, there will be a much stronger sense of pride. If you really have an innate

00:31:30.760 sense of pride, an innate sense of dignity and self-worth, nobody can take that away from you.

00:31:37.880 Okay?

00:31:38.460 No names you are called can take that away from you.

00:31:41.340 It can only be taken away from you if you don't actually really have it.

00:31:45.760 If you are pretending to have it, but deep inside you don't really feel that way.

00:31:50.620 Then if somebody calls you a name, you know, it affects you.

00:31:55.320 Okay?

00:31:56.020 You might not even say it out in public, but it affects you because you're thinking,

00:31:59.560 oh, maybe that person is right.

00:32:01.080 Maybe I'm really worth less or not worth that much.

00:32:03.300 that much so one it will give people a sense of self-worth there within africa okay so then

00:32:10.920 africans let's say coming to the uk or to america or to the west discussing we'll discuss from a

00:32:16.380 completely different psychological position okay it will be from a psychological position that look

00:32:22.000 you guys white people have your successful countries here in europe obviously there are

00:32:27.140 some much less successful countries here in europe we black people in africa we also have

00:32:32.580 our successful countries in Africa. And of course, there's some much less successful

00:32:36.120 countries there, just like you guys also have here in Europe. So that would be a completely

00:32:39.960 different psychological approach, a much more relaxed psychological approach, you see.

00:32:45.720 So that's one. Two, if we talk about, let's say, black, because a lot of this is actually

00:32:51.160 pushed not even by people who were born in Africa and then moved to the West like me,

00:32:56.860 but very often by black people who were actually born in the West, okay? Born in America or born

00:33:02.400 here. So, they also, I know, are affected by this fact that they know that these successful

00:33:10.580 black nations don't really exist, okay? And they, too, if they were to see that, oh, well,

00:33:15.880 there's, I don't know, Nigeria, which is one of the, let's say, becomes one of the biggest

00:33:20.420 economies in the world, world leaders go there to pay homage to the Nigerian leader, et cetera,

00:33:25.900 these visuals appear, okay? When there's some, you know, big global event, you know, people consult,

00:33:31.100 oh, what does the Nigerian leader think? What does the South African leader think? What does

00:33:34.760 the Kenyan leader think? After years of seeing these kind of images, you know, in TV and all

00:33:39.700 that, and seeing that, look, this power balance which they speak of is becoming definitely more

00:33:45.300 equal, OK? We do see that there are black nations which are strong and powerful. The black

00:33:50.700 identitarians in the West here will also be sort of more relaxed psychologically also, OK? They'll

00:33:56.840 be more sure of themselves, and there'll be less of this sort of desperate need, you know, to sort

00:34:01.320 of prove by bluster, empty bluster, essentially, that, oh, yes, we are something, and we're going

00:34:07.160 to show them that we're something. Because, you know, showing that you're something is not, you

00:34:10.480 know, based on bluster. The way the world is, is based on results which you have behind you,

00:34:16.200 and the results of your group behind you, yeah? Perhaps it shouldn't be like that. In fact, I

00:34:20.180 think it shouldn't be like that. I believe people should be respected, and groups should be respected

00:34:23.920 for simply being, okay?

00:34:26.740 But that's not how the world works, you know.

00:34:29.240 Chinese people 30 years ago,

00:34:30.720 I remember the jokes about the Chinese people 30 years ago.

00:34:33.020 You guys, I mean, you would have definitely read about them also.

00:34:35.380 30 years ago, you know, China was the butt of, you know, world jokes, yeah?

00:34:38.540 That was the joke of the poor China man and all that, yeah?

00:34:40.800 Nobody treated them seriously.

00:34:41.960 They were dismissed today.

00:34:44.360 Nobody would dare do that.

00:34:45.800 Well, they own us.

00:34:46.980 You know?

00:34:48.100 Nobody would dare do that.

00:34:50.860 It didn't take a Chinese identitarian movement

00:34:53.780 to come out and say, oh, you must respect them and Chinese people

00:34:57.600 because we demand it.

00:34:59.580 That's not the way it worked, OK?

00:35:01.840 The results came, the strengths came,

00:35:04.540 and people automatically respected.

00:35:06.600 Nobody had to be asked.

00:35:08.060 Today, nobody has to be asked to respect China.

00:35:10.560 Do you think the West's idea of Africa as a whole doesn't help?

00:35:15.400 The fact that, you know, you ask the average person on the street

00:35:19.520 what they think about Africa, and they would say, you know,

00:35:21.560 it's poverty it's corruption it's you know it's divisions of wealth it's a do you think that that

00:35:26.920 is really quite damaging when it's it's a country it's i'm sorry it's a it's a continent company

00:35:32.640 well done mate there you go africa's a country guys you're doing well yeah yeah yeah you can

00:35:39.220 what you can hear is me sweating uh you know a continent with over you know 50 countries like

00:35:44.500 you said and you know some are more successful than others and it's quite simply a crude two

00:35:48.940 dimensional portrait. Definitely, but that is still not the core of the problem. The core of

00:35:54.380 the problem is not what white people think about Africa. The core of the problem is what are the

00:35:58.280 realities of Africa. I don't care what white people think about Africa. Of course, I have to

00:36:02.660 care because white people are influential and all that and all that. And of course, you know,

00:36:05.980 what's shown on the news on CNN, et cetera, is important. But what really matters are the realities

00:36:11.520 on the ground there. If the socioeconomic realities on the ground there improve, life becomes better

00:36:17.580 for people. The countries become stronger economically, et cetera. This narrative which

00:36:21.800 you're talking about will also change, because one thing which I can't stand, which black

00:36:26.180 identitarians do, is focus on the narrative aspect of things. And they say, oh, yeah,

00:36:31.360 well, Africa is portrayed so negatively, and, you know, that's why things are so bad. No.

00:36:38.220 It's portrayed negatively because things are so bad. It's not that it's portrayed negatively,

00:36:42.100 and that's why things are so bad. These pictures which are shown, sometimes of children hungry,

00:36:46.020 et cetera, they exist, okay? They exist. Now, the African intellectual or the black intellectual

00:36:52.620 would like to sort of downplay that side and focus not on the 70, 80 percent who are having

00:37:01.260 terribly difficult lives, but focus on the 10, 20 percent who are doing well. And say, oh, well,

00:37:06.860 why are you guys talking so much about slums and all that and all that? Look, there's this African

00:37:10.480 businessman who built a business worth $2 billion. Fine, but so what? How does that help

00:37:15.620 the millions of people who are there suffering, okay?

00:37:18.940 I understand why they're doing it.

00:37:20.880 They're doing it from a dignity perspective,

00:37:23.700 from a perspective that, look,

00:37:25.420 if the world sees us as simply, like you're suggesting,

00:37:29.640 simply poor, we have nothing to offer, et cetera,

00:37:32.460 no one will ever respect us,

00:37:34.160 and perhaps even this economic growth will not come

00:37:36.580 because investors won't come since they'll think,

00:37:38.900 oh, well, you know, we're so poor,

00:37:40.280 we have nothing to offer anyway.

00:37:41.700 That's their argument.

00:37:42.680 That's their perspective.

00:37:43.380 I get that perspective.

00:37:44.240 But at the end of the day, if you're talking, for instance, investors, investors are not going to, you know, watch CNN to decide whether to go invest in a country or not.

00:37:53.240 They're going to look at facts and figures.

00:37:55.340 What's the average wage?

00:37:56.720 What's the average income?

00:37:57.960 What kind of disposable income do people have?

00:37:59.840 Are they going to be able to buy my products?

00:38:01.820 Okay?

00:38:02.460 That's what they're going to look at.

00:38:03.760 So that argument that, oh, sort of talking about the realities of Africa is going to scare away investors, and thus we won't get the economic growth, and thus we're perpetuating the poverty.

00:38:13.400 I don't buy that logical sequence, you know.

00:38:17.720 It's the other way around.

00:38:18.620 It's the other way around.

00:38:19.440 So it is mostly, I know, on their perspective, a dignity.

00:38:24.840 It's a dignity perspective.

00:38:26.780 It's a dignity argument, yeah, that, oh, we have to sort of speak well of ourselves.

00:38:31.000 And what they will say, I know, to people like me is, look, other people speak well of themselves.

00:38:35.580 They don't speak of their disadvantages or their bad sides, yeah?

00:38:38.900 When Americans are talking about themselves abroad, they speak about the good things about America.

00:38:43.400 When the British are talking about themselves abroad, they speak about the good things.

00:38:46.120 Well, that's not true.

00:38:46.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not.

00:38:48.360 Yeah, it's not.

00:38:49.180 That's the thing.

00:38:49.660 It's not.

00:38:50.100 But that's the way they will present something.

00:38:52.400 So why shouldn't we focus on the good sides?

00:38:55.800 Right.

00:38:56.180 You see?

00:38:56.740 So why shouldn't we?

00:38:57.540 Because everybody else does it.

00:38:58.680 But it's actually not like that.

00:39:00.100 Some of the most critical books you can find in the world about America were written by Americans.

00:39:05.120 Yeah.

00:39:05.600 Yeah?

00:39:05.960 And the Americans who come out every day and say this is a rubbish country, oppressive, racist, etc., etc.,

00:39:11.420 just like the way about Britain.

00:39:12.740 So that—but I understand, you know, the problem they face is that problem of, you know, where's the balance between soft criticism, which happens when we are within ourselves, okay?

00:39:24.320 So if you go read the average Nigerian newspaper today, you will find articles slaying Nigerian government policy and often even slaying Nigerian society, okay?

00:39:33.740 But those are articles for domestic consumption, yeah?

00:39:37.280 the idea is that they're not meant to be read by white people

00:39:41.500 because this will make them even more look down on us.

00:39:45.200 So as long as we know the audience is within our circle,

00:39:49.280 we say the truth.

00:39:51.160 But if we know white people are going to read this,

00:39:53.760 we need to sort of spin it a bit

00:39:57.780 because if not, we are just giving them more opportunities

00:40:01.820 to look down on us the way you and I know

00:40:04.980 is the way the discussion would go between me and a black person

00:40:07.620 or the way, like, they would say to me,

00:40:09.320 the way you and I know they've always looked down on us.

00:40:12.420 And now you want to give them even more opportunity to do that?

00:40:16.720 Remy, the other thing I wanted to ask in terms of a possible solution

00:40:19.720 is one thing that's always occurred to me

00:40:21.600 is there's almost this original sin of slavery

00:40:24.620 that's never been addressed, not really.

00:40:28.460 Like, you know, you talk about the fact that, you know,

00:40:30.580 obviously the vast, vast majority of people of all colours

00:40:33.420 would say that slavery was wrong, specifically the African slave trade,

00:40:38.300 because there's slavery of all kinds that's been happening for millennia.

00:40:41.340 But people would accept that that's wrong now,

00:40:43.900 but that's never been properly addressed in the sense of,

00:40:47.120 yes, there's been apologies, but there's never been, say,

00:40:49.300 an economic aspect to that, right?

00:40:51.720 Do you think that something like targeted reparations

00:40:56.540 towards people who are the descendants of slaves,

00:40:59.460 maybe educational vouchers or something,

00:41:01.820 would help to kind of address that unaddressed original sin

00:41:06.840 and kind of help us as a society to move beyond that.

00:41:09.520 Do you think that's possible?

00:41:10.560 That's an interesting point you raise,

00:41:11.980 and there is definitely an analogy that could be drawn on

00:41:15.440 to justify such a demand,

00:41:18.260 which would be the analogy of the compensation

00:41:21.500 given to Holocaust survivors and their families,

00:41:25.060 sometimes by Swiss banks, for instance,

00:41:27.360 and some of the banks who profited off the Holocaust directly.

00:41:31.820 And there have been compensation agreements negotiated for the direct descendants of those, not for all Jewish people, exactly.

00:41:43.220 So, yeah, I mean, that's, there's definitely an analogy there.

00:41:47.580 And I definitely think there's an argument to be made for that.

00:41:50.000 There's an argument to be made for that.

00:41:51.640 If you can, like I said, identify going to direct descendants, there's definitely a legal argument probably could come up for that.

00:41:57.620 And there's definitely a moral argument you could come up for that.

00:41:59.700 so it's definitely that's an idea definitely because I feel like that would be a big part

00:42:05.040 of a potential solution because otherwise the resentments and the wariness that you've talked

00:42:09.760 about is always going to be there you know it's like if you've been offended by a person an

00:42:14.360 individual in your life and you're really upset about it and you have every right to be upset

00:42:18.960 about it and they've never apologized or maybe they've kind of half-heartedly apologized they've

00:42:23.460 never compensated you they've never offered to make amends then it's going to be very difficult

00:42:28.280 to have a constructive relationship with that person.

00:42:31.460 And that's why whenever these issues are brought up,

00:42:33.560 I always feel like, I mean, the descendants of slaves

00:42:35.780 have not been given the rightful compensation for what's happened.

00:42:40.300 And if that could be taken care of,

00:42:42.060 I feel like we could move on as a society

00:42:44.000 in a way that we haven't been able to at this point.

00:42:45.720 You know, like I said again,

00:42:47.360 that's definitely a hugely interesting idea,

00:42:49.200 and there is definitely a movement in the U.S. trying to demand that.

00:42:54.100 Of course, with going to Holocaust survivors,

00:42:56.540 I guess it's easier to identify because it wasn't that long ago, so there are still some

00:43:00.800 people even still alive, and their children definitely, or grandchildren definitely still

00:43:04.960 alive. A bit more difficult, I mean, with slavery, you'd have to go back, you know, trace records,

00:43:09.440 etc. So who would actually get the composition? Would it be the African-Americans, or would it

00:43:14.500 also extend to some of their African descendants in Africa? Right. Okay. So practically, obviously,

00:43:20.180 it would be much more difficult, it would be much more difficult to do, but I definitely agree with

00:43:24.660 you that from a symbolic point of view of sort of an olive branch, let's say, in this

00:43:32.840 case cash, would go a long way towards definitely addressing some of these emotions and most

00:43:45.640 importantly, would remove some of the emotional impact or some of the psychological advantages

00:43:55.500 which the identitarians have, who are trying to drive that permanent wedge.

00:44:00.180 They'd have one less argument, okay?

00:44:02.840 They'd have one less argument.

00:44:04.340 So people would be able to say, okay, fine, but you say these white people are so bad.

00:44:07.940 Okay, we know what they've done in the past and all that, but at least, you know, they've

00:44:12.320 now trying to address this by ABC, yeah?

00:44:15.640 So, you know, some people listening will be like, oh, yeah, maybe these, you know, identity guys are taking it too far, because after all, these people have given some compensation, and what else do you want them to do, you know?

00:44:27.600 So, yeah, so from that point of view, as in, one, addressing some of the issues and weakening the position of those who want to simply, whose careers are built, essentially, on driving that wedge and saying, look, we black people are victims, these white people are bad, et cetera, et cetera.

00:44:42.320 Even though, funny enough, all these identifiers, I've never seen any of them who go to a black publisher to publish their books.

00:44:50.860 They always go to white publishers.

00:44:52.820 Why?

00:44:53.280 Because the white publishers are, white publishing companies are the biggest ones who can make you famous and make you sell loads of books.

00:44:59.560 But if you're talking about strengthening, you're talking about black power and strengthening, you know, black economic something, why not go to a black publishing company?

00:45:07.560 Such exists.

00:45:08.620 It's not like there are no black-owned publishing companies that, you know, that exist.

00:45:11.860 There are some which function on the market.

00:45:13.800 There are definitely in Africa,

00:45:15.300 and I'm almost 100% sure

00:45:18.120 that there are some black-owned publishing companies in America.

00:45:20.980 So why don't these black identitarians

00:45:22.720 go to black publishing companies to publish their books?

00:45:25.160 Of course not, because those ones,

00:45:26.780 one, can't pay them as much for their books,

00:45:28.520 and two, can't make them as famous as the, you know,

00:45:31.740 let me not mention names.

00:45:33.700 Hey, why not?

00:45:34.580 This is the point of the show.

00:45:35.820 As you're laying into some people, that's the best thing.

00:45:38.600 As the huge white publishing company can.

00:45:42.420 So you see here some of the irony and some of the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

00:45:46.480 I'm here complaining about how terrible white people are,

00:45:49.460 but at the end of the day, I'm going to a white publishing company

00:45:52.240 because I know they're the ones who can make me famous

00:45:54.840 and eventually rich or semi-rich.

00:45:58.500 That's a side issue, maybe.

00:46:08.600 If I ever want to start an argument on the internet or if anybody starts an argument on the internet

00:46:13.780 All they need to do is put two words together white and privilege and all of a sudden it explodes and

00:46:19.200 You know you've got people from different sides and of the argument and it normally gets incredibly heated

00:46:25.300 I mean, what is your opinion of this? Do you think a is exists?

00:46:28.800 Is it a thing and how big a problem is it in our society?

00:46:33.480 So Britain you're talking about yes Britain

00:46:35.480 Or the U.S. as well, if you want to delve into that.

00:46:38.640 Let's say the West.

00:46:40.320 I'll definitely say that white skin colour

00:46:44.620 is a strong negotiating currency in global interactions.

00:46:51.680 OK?

00:46:52.600 For instance, if a white man walks into a Nigerian police station

00:46:58.600 and complains about a crime being committed against them,

00:47:03.340 That crime will be taken much more seriously,

00:47:05.900 that report will be taken much more seriously

00:47:07.600 than if a Nigerian was to go into that police station

00:47:11.260 and complain about the same crime, okay?

00:47:14.420 So, why is that?

00:47:16.880 It's because there definitely is,

00:47:18.460 and now I'm starting with an example, like I said, in Nigeria.

00:47:22.360 It's because the Nigerian policeman

00:47:25.160 definitely instinctively believes that, you know,

00:47:28.700 white people are important.

00:47:29.880 I'm going to interrupt you there just for one second

00:47:32.820 because in Russia, where I'm from

00:47:34.600 if a Nigerian or a British man

00:47:39.280 walked into a police station to report a crime

00:47:41.820 a foreigner, that would also be taken more seriously

00:47:45.160 we need to depend on what type of foreigner

00:47:46.680 is it not that the Westerner would be taken more seriously

00:47:49.540 but that Westerner could be black, that Westerner could be Latino

00:47:53.340 I know, I'll get to what you're saying

00:47:56.480 it's a good point, I know where you're going to

00:47:59.360 So, essentially, the Nigerian police would believe that white people are important.

00:48:04.900 Now, why?

00:48:05.620 Is it just because of the skin color, just because the skin color looks like that?

00:48:09.060 No.

00:48:09.820 It's because of the perception that white people are generally rich and generally powerful.

00:48:18.340 Okay?

00:48:19.020 That's why they're important.

00:48:20.580 Not because they're white, but because of the resources that I imagine to be behind them.

00:48:25.380 Right.

00:48:25.760 Okay?

00:48:26.440 So the Nigerian policeman there would assume that, well, first of all, we should take this

00:48:30.540 guy's case seriously, because, you know, he might know some important people here, for

00:48:34.200 instance.

00:48:34.900 There might be some consequences if we don't take the case seriously, et cetera.

00:48:37.980 It's not because of the white skin color.

00:48:40.020 It's because of the resources they imagine behind that white person who walked into the

00:48:43.680 police station.

00:48:44.720 Whereas if it was a Nigerian person who, if they don't identify that, oh, this is a rich

00:48:48.900 guy here, they'll just, you know, dismiss that, you know, well, we don't have to take

00:48:51.880 this serious and there'll be no consequences.

00:48:53.220 And this leads to what you were talking about, as in why, for instance, in Russia, if a Western

00:48:59.940 person, a Western citizen walks in, they will be taking more seriously. For instance, a black

00:49:05.620 American, they will be taking a hundred times, I'm sure, more seriously than if a Nigerian walks

00:49:10.700 into a Russian police station, because the black American is an American citizen, okay? So because

00:49:15.440 there's that perception that, you know, behind this guy, there are resources, there's political

00:49:21.180 power, there's economic power. So we have to take this person seriously. It's the same

00:49:25.300 thing exactly, for instance, in Poland. Western people walk somewhere, et cetera. It's taken

00:49:30.280 very seriously because, oh, this is a British person. Oh, my God. Polish police would also

00:49:35.020 take probably more seriously the case of a British person than the case even of a Polish

00:49:39.880 person. So these are dynamics which come into play, like I said, based on resources, et

00:49:45.420 And it so happens that it's white people who control a lot of the resources, et cetera.

00:49:51.080 That's why this preferential treatment comes in, because that preferential treatment definitely

00:49:54.560 exists, okay?

00:49:56.420 So, that's in the, let's say, Nigerian setting.

00:50:00.340 So, if we come, let's say, to the setting here in the U.K., clearly, a group which constitutes

00:50:07.820 87 percent of, like, U.K.'s population will have advantages, okay?

00:50:12.220 We will find it easier to, you know, get jobs, et cetera.

00:50:15.420 And why might that be? Let's say, for instance, you go apply for a job. Recently, I was on Sky News a couple of weeks ago talking about there was a shortage of, or there is a shortage, sorry, of senior minority managers in the NHS.

00:50:31.320 So I spoke to a couple of people I know in the NHS who are in high executive positions, both black and white, on why they think this is the case.

00:50:42.260 And what was interesting, what some of the black people told me, they said, look, you know, you come, obviously, to be even called for an interview on such a level, you know, senior management position in the NHS, this means there's already an assumption that you are qualified to do the job.

00:50:56.860 Because if not, you won't even be called in for the interview anyway.

00:50:59.860 So based on your CV, they've seen this guy is qualified to do the job.

00:51:04.180 Then you come in, then they make a short list, et cetera.

00:51:07.060 Now, the whole crux of the matter comes in who in that short list is going to be chosen.

00:51:12.160 So let's say you have four or five people.

00:51:13.800 Let's say one is black, one is Asian, three are white.

00:51:17.980 What are the thoughts that are going to be going through the head of the mostly white

00:51:22.240 panelists or all white panelists in making that final decision?

00:51:26.560 We know all these five guys can do the job.

00:51:28.960 They're all qualified.

00:51:30.780 Now, thoughts will start to enter of, okay,

00:51:32.940 who do we think we'll have the smoothest working relationship with?

00:51:37.640 Okay?

00:51:39.540 In answering that question will start to come now

00:51:42.840 imaginations of cultural affinity.

00:51:46.880 Okay?

00:51:47.920 Am I going to be able to get along with this guy, you know,

00:51:50.040 almost without words?

00:51:51.360 Because that's the kind of person I want to work with.

00:51:53.760 Yeah?

00:51:53.980 I don't want to work with somebody who, you know,

00:51:55.800 I'll be worried whether I can say this or I can't say that

00:51:58.060 Or should I say it this way, or shouldn't I say it that way?

00:52:00.260 Every culture has its code.

00:52:02.080 Like, you know, for instance, in Russia,

00:52:03.340 there's a way Russians can communicate with each other

00:52:05.220 without words that a foreigner will never understand

00:52:07.680 if just reading the words.

00:52:09.480 You'll be like, what was communicated here, yeah?

00:52:11.860 But the Russian knows exactly what was communicated.

00:52:14.980 And here now come in questions of, ah, okay,

00:52:17.940 so, you know, most probably we'll get along better

00:52:21.240 with the white guy, because, I mean, he's white like us.

00:52:23.720 He probably, you know, grew up in a, not probably,

00:52:26.720 grew up in a similar culture, probably has similar worldviews to us, similar attitudes

00:52:32.040 towards, you know, I don't know, work, different kind of things, and it will simply probably

00:52:37.220 be easier for us to get along with that white person.

00:52:39.760 And on that basis, a decision can be made to employ a white guy instead of, let's say,

00:52:45.800 for instance, someone who came to Britain from Nigeria 20 years ago and has exactly

00:52:51.480 the same qualifications, yeah?

00:52:53.200 Now, that decision is not, I'm not saying sometimes it's not based on racism.

00:52:58.020 Probably it is.

00:52:59.960 But sometimes it's not based on the fact that, oh, I think this black guy is a worse person

00:53:04.360 or will not be able to do the job.

00:53:06.080 But it's based on the fact that I simply think I'll get along better with the white guy.

00:53:10.720 And now, these are not thoughts that only go through the heads of white people.

00:53:15.320 In Nigeria, for instance, you know, where there's ethnic divisions

00:53:18.440 and regions of the country have vastly different cultures in Nigeria, for instance.

00:53:25.740 It's a huge country, four times the size of the UK, four times the size of the UK,

00:53:29.840 not of England, of the entire UK, almost 200 million people.

00:53:33.600 So in the northern region, there's a different culture, for instance, than in the southern region.

00:53:40.220 And very often also when decisions are made, for instance, in Nigeria,

00:53:44.460 based on who to employ, et cetera.

00:53:46.740 These kinds of considerations are taken into account.

00:53:49.560 My father was an architect.

00:53:50.860 He ran his own architectural firm in Nigeria.

00:53:53.400 He only employed people from within his own ethnic group,

00:53:58.480 not because he hated the people from other ethnic groups,

00:54:03.600 but he simply made an automatic assumption

00:54:05.720 that, you know, he'd have a smoother working relationship

00:54:12.200 with people from his own ethnic group,

00:54:13.460 because same culture, we understand each other.

00:54:15.500 I don't need to say much, okay?

00:54:17.480 I say one, two words, they know what I mean.

00:54:20.300 That's why it is.

00:54:22.040 I can't remember anybody,

00:54:23.220 I'm talking about a few dozen people,

00:54:25.620 who were not from his ethnic group.

00:54:27.880 And it's not because others from other ethnic groups

00:54:29.720 did not apply,

00:54:30.780 or because my dad hated those people

00:54:32.600 from those ethnic groups, you know.

00:54:33.820 So these are the kinds of mechanisms

00:54:35.400 that could happen, like, in a setting here

00:54:38.220 that they'll go for the, you know.

00:54:41.280 And then it will be identified as,

00:54:42.860 oh, it's racism, it's because they think the black person is worse

00:54:45.700 or they don't want to work with the black person.

00:54:47.120 No, it's a preferential choice.

00:54:49.560 Now, of course, this disadvantages people like me

00:54:52.000 or could disadvantage people like me or other black people.

00:54:56.120 So I'm not surprised that, you know, nobody's going to just say,

00:54:59.140 ah, well, okay, fine, since it's just about cultural affinity,

00:55:02.220 then we understand, then it's okay.

00:55:03.920 Obviously, you can't expect minorities to adopt that position

00:55:06.980 because this disadvantages them, yeah?

00:55:08.700 But I'm just trying to show how some of the mechanisms

00:55:11.960 behind such decisions are not based on, oh, I think black people are worse, or I don't

00:55:16.800 want to work with black people, yeah, or other minorities, but on these, you know, cultural

00:55:22.680 preferential treatments I'm talking about, of course, the question would be, you know,

00:55:25.920 what's the solution?

00:55:26.960 Because it's unfair, obviously, if qualified black people or Asian people are disadvantaged

00:55:33.220 because the white person making the decision, you know, assumes they will work better with

00:55:38.380 a fellow white person, you know.

00:55:39.760 Well, the thing is with that is what you're talking about.

00:55:43.100 I mean, it doesn't sound to me like it's actually got anything to do with race whatsoever.

00:55:46.620 That same thing... Sometimes it might.

00:55:48.240 It might, but what I'm saying is that same thing would apply to class.

00:55:52.160 Yeah. So a group of middle-class people seeing a working-class person...

00:55:56.080 Or the BBC, as they like to be known.

00:55:59.380 Yeah, they would then go, this person, we can't get on with him, he's working class.

00:56:02.900 Of course. What does he know about?

00:56:04.000 Of course, definitely.

00:56:05.720 And a Russian would be in the same position because they'd be like, well, he didn't grow up here, he didn't understand.

00:56:10.420 Of course, of course.

00:56:11.640 And I mean, they're poor.

00:56:12.600 Look, if they say this thing is, okay, white, aha, another point.

00:56:15.900 If they say, okay, this thing is old, white privilege, white privilege, et cetera.

00:56:18.820 I know Polish people here who came to this country with master's degrees in economics and were washing plates for five years.

00:56:28.660 Okay.

00:56:29.660 Why?

00:56:30.060 Because, one, their English wasn't that good.

00:56:33.960 And during job interviews for their, you know, specialization, economics, et cetera,

00:56:38.500 they weren't able to convince the usually British employer that, you know,

00:56:43.860 I can do this job and I'll understand instructions immediately, you know.

00:56:48.500 Because, you know, nobody has time to start explaining things to you all

00:56:51.020 because you're an immigrant, so I'll take an hour to explain things to you.

00:56:54.080 Unfortunately, it's a brutal world, capitalism.

00:56:56.320 Nobody has time for that.

00:56:57.300 People want, I want somebody who I say A and they understand the rest of the sentence.

00:57:02.520 So I know Polish people like that.

00:57:04.140 So how has their white skin helped them here in Britain?

00:57:06.780 In no way has it helped them, okay?

00:57:09.900 The British employer is not interested that,

00:57:11.620 oh, Polish guy, you are white, ah, so I'll employ you.

00:57:14.200 Of course not, you know, if you don't speak the language.

00:57:16.960 A black Briton who's finished a good university here in Britain

00:57:20.920 is advantaged over the white pole

00:57:23.680 if they both have economics degrees, yeah?

00:57:26.420 The black Briton who, you know, grew up here,

00:57:29.860 knows the cultural codes, went to a good university,

00:57:31.780 will be hugely advantaged over a white pole who came here,

00:57:35.120 has the same economics degree,

00:57:37.120 but, you know, doesn't maybe speak English that well

00:57:40.280 and doesn't know, you know, those British cultural codes

00:57:42.840 and all that that well, yeah?

00:57:44.800 So, you know, what would we call that then?

00:57:46.400 Yeah, no, I totally agree.

00:57:47.680 Do you think we've gone too far in entertaining

00:57:51.100 the black identitarians that you talk about

00:57:54.260 and identity politics in general?

00:57:56.680 What do you mean by that, too far?

00:57:58.340 I mean that we're starting to see,

00:58:01.440 Like I saw on my Facebook feed, someone sent me this morning that the government has an initiative to change the ethnic makeup of the firefighting service.

00:58:10.760 Okay.

00:58:11.360 Because it doesn't reflect whatever it is, diversity quarters that they have.

00:58:15.960 And in that kind of situation, you know, most people, I suspect, will think, well, hey, I don't care what color my fireman is.

00:58:21.520 I just want him to drag me out of the bloody fire.

00:58:23.320 Sure, sure, sure.

00:58:25.000 Look, these are tricky issues.

00:58:27.620 I've had such an experience.

00:58:29.180 My wife recently had a surgical procedure, and I remember when we were in the hospital in Sheffield there, you know, the last thing on my mind was, what's the skin color of the people running this hospital or the doctors or the people who are turning to her?

00:58:47.200 That was the last thing on my mind.

00:58:48.680 All I cared about was that, you know, these are people who are competent and good at their job.

00:58:53.760 Okay, so that's one side of it.

00:58:55.580 The other side of it, and I definitely think is a legitimate argument, is if there are, let's say, specific organizations or institutions, okay, where after really going in and doing research, not just something we read in newspapers, but after going in and doing research and studying, you know, recruitment processes and all that, how people are employed, what kind of people applied, how many were something,

00:59:18.900 there seems to be a clear tendency

00:59:22.100 to sort of dismiss minority applicants.

00:59:29.500 Then, of course, I believe that should be looked into,

00:59:32.260 you know, how do we, why is this happening?

00:59:34.780 How do we redress this, et cetera, of course.

00:59:37.100 So I can't say much regarding the fire brigade team

00:59:43.480 because I don't know, you know,

00:59:44.660 what made the government come up with that kind of something.

00:59:48.300 You know, I would assume that they, you know, did some kind of studies and did some kind of research before they came up with that, you know, proposal.

00:59:58.400 Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:59.680 I was going to lead on to the question, because this is something that I've tossed and turned over in my head many, many times.

01:00:06.980 Do you believe in quotas?

01:00:08.200 Do you think we should impose on employers?

01:00:11.740 You should employ this percentage of women.

01:00:14.600 You should employ this percentage of ethnic minorities.

01:00:17.040 or do you think that the market should be allowed to sort itself out?

01:00:21.800 To be honest with you, I don't have a clear...

01:00:24.920 I'm an agnostic on that position, on that issue.

01:00:28.160 I don't really have a clear...

01:00:29.840 I don't really have a clear opinion on that issue

01:00:33.460 in the sense that my opinion has shifted over the years.

01:00:36.940 So there have been moments I might wake up on a Monday

01:00:39.020 and think quotas are a terrible idea.

01:00:42.200 It's ridiculous. Come on.

01:00:44.440 Why should a company be forced to, et cetera, et cetera?

01:00:47.040 But then I read an article on a Wednesday which makes a persuasive argument for why, let's say, in institution A, there were no possibilities for, let's say, women to get jobs.

01:00:57.960 But after the imposition of quotas, those women have—you know, there's been a greater participation of women, and the results of the institution have improved.

01:01:09.440 You know, and then I read that, and I'm like, man, it seems this quota thing isn't such a bad idea after all.

01:01:13.440 So, yeah, so honestly speaking, I don't have a clear-cut idea of that.

01:01:18.860 I would say probably it should go on a case-by-case basis, on a case-by-case basis.

01:01:25.300 I definitely probably wouldn't support a, you know, blanket quota, you know, everywhere,

01:01:29.300 you know, 50% of the women in Parliament must be women, 50% of the people in Parliament

01:01:34.000 or the MPs must be women, or 21.2% should be black, etc.

01:01:39.400 I definitely wouldn't support something like that.

01:01:41.140 But on a case-by-case basis, looking at specific institutions, organizations, looking at the history, how things have worked there, then I think definitely, I mean, it's not something I would dismiss and say, oh, it's a rubbish idea.

01:02:02.260 So, moving on, you're obviously a political journalist and you're based in Poland and Eastern Europe.

01:02:08.120 And we've seen the rise of populism happen more and more in those countries,

01:02:12.640 whether it's Hungary, it's Poland and all the rest of it.

01:02:14.840 Why do you think this is happening?

01:02:16.440 Is it to do with the EU?

01:02:19.260 Is it to do with, you know, the situation in the Middle East or Syria?

01:02:24.960 Why do you think it's happening?

01:02:26.580 Is it something we should be worried about?

01:02:29.220 I'd say definitely yes.

01:02:31.260 In Poland, currently, there's a hardcore right-wing, right-wing, xenophobic, I'd call them.

01:02:40.060 I try to use that word sparingly.

01:02:41.940 But definitely, it applies in this case, government.

01:02:45.860 So, OK, I'll just tell you briefly how they came into power.

01:02:49.880 So, day one election, they've been in power since 2015.

01:02:53.780 And that was, of course, the year of the migrant crisis.

01:02:55.980 Now, this party, before, for reasons completely unconnected with migrants or immigration, et cetera, were already in a good position to win the elections.

01:03:08.260 Because Poland had had a ruling party, a liberal ruling party, for eight years.

01:03:11.760 People were tired of it.

01:03:12.660 There had been some corruption, scandals, et cetera.

01:03:14.860 So there was already fertile ground for this opposition party to win those elections.

01:03:19.380 Okay?

01:03:20.380 So, during the summer of 2015, the elections were in October, if I recall, EMEI correctly,

01:03:25.880 of 2015.

01:03:26.980 During the summer, they were ahead of the liberal EMEI party, but by a few points.

01:03:33.240 Then the migrant crisis EMEI erupted, and they, you know, went into that hardcore, as

01:03:40.040 in the leader of the party came out and said, we shouldn't be accepting any refugees or

01:03:44.320 migrants into Poland.

01:03:45.760 They could be carrying—I mean, terrible things, saying, like, oh, they could even

01:03:49.960 be carrying diseases and all that, you know, which are terrible allusions to, you know,

01:03:53.200 what is absurd about the Jews in Nazi Germany, et cetera.

01:03:55.800 You know, basically, that's playing on the most fundamental fear of people, you know,

01:03:59.300 that these guys could come and give you a disease, which could make you die, you know.

01:04:04.040 What's more scary than that?

01:04:06.500 So they, you know, played into these tropes very strongly.

01:04:10.720 Immediately, they do that, and you did won the elections.

01:04:13.860 And you did win the elections, unfortunately.

01:04:16.440 And as it happened in October, it came that they did win the elections.

01:04:22.420 So I'd say that definitely added a few points to them,

01:04:26.140 even though most probably they might have even won the elections even without that.

01:04:30.060 So what happened is when they saw that, wow, people are really responding to this stuff,

01:04:34.320 yeah, that they might be in, because they were talking then,

01:04:37.660 the previous government, then the liberal government who they ran against,

01:04:40.520 had agreed to accept 7,000 refugees.

01:04:46.140 Just 7,000.

01:04:47.140 No, no, just 7,000.

01:04:49.660 And this government said, oh, and these guys who are ruling now

01:04:53.560 during the campaign said, oh, yeah, but that's how they start.

01:04:56.280 They say 7,000, and then, you know, people come in

01:04:58.840 and they bring in their brothers and sisters and cousins,

01:05:01.080 and before you know it, it's 100,000, yeah?

01:05:03.460 And then before you know it, it's a million.

01:05:05.300 So that's how they played on that.

01:05:08.180 And they said, so we are accepting zero.

01:05:09.880 So that's our policy.

01:05:12.100 So they won the elections.

01:05:13.660 And then when they say, wow, people really like this stuff, they're really responding

01:05:16.460 to it, then they even started going further.

01:05:19.520 And then when there were attacks, you remember 2016, there was the attacks in France and

01:05:24.760 all that.

01:05:26.040 And then their ministers would come out and say, well, we've said all along this multiculturalism

01:05:30.400 is a ridiculous idea.

01:05:32.520 You guys see now how right we were not to allow these Muslim folks to come into Poland

01:05:37.100 and all that, because probably, you know, Poland now would be like France now, you know,

01:05:40.200 where, you know, there's people running around with AK-47s and shooting people in cafes.

01:05:45.520 And, you know, obviously, you know, that fear, et cetera, and those attacks sort of reinforced

01:05:50.100 their message.

01:05:51.220 And people were like, oh, they probably had a point, actually, you know.

01:05:55.280 And they've been riding on that since then.

01:05:58.760 And definitely, they've sort of unleashed, you know, at the end of the day, Bertrand

01:06:02.740 Russell, I think it was, who wrote in the history of Western philosophy that the history

01:06:08.820 of humanity has been one of the battles between reason and passion within the individual human.

01:06:16.340 Yeah? And that for some people, the victory of reason over passion comes without much pain.

01:06:24.200 For some people, it comes with a lot of pain. And restraining those passions,

01:06:31.180 they find inhibitive and even psychologically difficult to accept. They want to be able to

01:06:37.660 release themselves and vent in public and not have to pretend and act all polite and civilized and

01:06:44.460 all that. And I do believe very strongly, you know, he got—there's a lot—there's a lot to that.

01:06:51.660 And so I think when this rhetoric started in Poland, it simply allowed a lot of people

01:06:57.020 who had been dissatisfied with various aspects of liberalism,

01:07:00.740 from its attitude to immigration to its attitude to gay rights and things like that.

01:07:06.660 Because Poland is a very conservative society, compared to a country like Britain, incomparably so.

01:07:11.680 I'll give you an example. I hope I'm not veering off too much. I tend to do this.

01:07:16.720 In Poland, no leftist party has dared to postulate for gay marriage.

01:07:25.220 Here in the U.K., the conservatives supported it.

01:07:27.680 So you see there the difference.

01:07:31.420 So when they started their rhetoric, it allowed a lot of people

01:07:35.440 who'd been hiding feelings which they had on various topics

01:07:38.640 regarding to liberalism and freedom and all that

01:07:41.340 to be able to come out and say, oh, yes, finally now I can say this.

01:07:45.200 You know, I've never really liked this.

01:07:46.580 Muslims can stand gays and think, you know,

01:07:49.660 the West has basically gone crazy, you know.

01:07:52.240 And these are really emotions which people feel.

01:07:54.120 they're not manufactured because very often people try to sort of uh act as if oh is this

01:07:59.380 elite who manufactured you know they tell people things and then people like robots say ah okay

01:08:03.960 immigrants bad aha immigrants bad you know gays bad ah gays bad it doesn't work that way

01:08:09.360 there has to be a feeling inside you yeah that is already leaning towards that direction

01:08:15.820 and then when the politician comes out and says you know constantin it's okay to think immigrants

01:08:22.380 are bad.

01:08:23.220 I like the way

01:08:23.660 he's picked me for this.

01:08:24.600 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:26.420 You're the Russian, mate.

01:08:32.120 It's okay

01:08:33.120 to think immigrants

01:08:34.100 are bad

01:08:34.460 because they really are.

01:08:35.540 Don't be afraid

01:08:36.220 of saying that.

01:08:36.980 Come on.

01:08:37.500 Be yourself.

01:08:38.220 Be free.

01:08:39.320 You know.

01:08:39.660 Come on.

01:08:41.980 So that's what

01:08:50.640 they played on,

01:08:51.800 you know.

01:08:52.000 And it's working.

01:08:53.720 So your question was, is it a problem?

01:08:58.440 I think definitely it's a problem because there's a lot of nastiness there.

01:09:01.960 I mean, there are, of course, Poles who are opposed to this.

01:09:05.040 But, you know, it gives a lot of people sort of satisfaction.

01:09:08.320 You know, there's a human satisfaction in feeling that I am better than somebody else.

01:09:13.180 Okay.

01:09:14.020 So if you are a broke guy who hasn't, and I'm not saying this disparagingly, I'm just as a fact.

01:09:21.080 If you're somebody who, let's say, let's call it economically frustrated,

01:09:24.880 things haven't gone well for you in life,

01:09:27.540 you don't have such a high level of self-esteem and all that,

01:09:31.200 and then a politician comes to you and says,

01:09:33.380 look, forget about your individual status.

01:09:37.680 You are a superior being simply for the fact that you were born a Pole.

01:09:42.320 That alone makes you better than all those Muslims

01:09:45.400 and all those brown people and all those Africans and all those people.

01:09:48.500 That alone should give you pride.

01:09:50.880 you know, and you're like, yeah, you know, I am something at the end of the day, yeah?

01:09:57.180 And, you know, it works very strongly, especially on people like that

01:10:00.480 who have that low sense of self-esteem, and then you tell them that,

01:10:03.380 oh, actually, you don't have to have any achievements in life individually.

01:10:07.140 All you have to do is have been born Polish.

01:10:10.620 That alone makes you a somebody, you know?

01:10:13.920 It's automatic, no effort on your part.

01:10:15.880 And it goes back to, I presume, to what you were studying, which is group identity.

01:10:19.880 which is yeah yeah definitely yeah and it gives him an identity and therefore a sense of self-worth

01:10:24.960 no of course no there's various social identity theories um which persuasively i would say i may

01:10:30.580 argue that you know a lot of uh our individual self-esteem often in many people if not most

01:10:37.160 is uh derived from the group they belong to and the group esteem you know there are some people

01:10:44.100 who are able to sort of derive that sense of self-esteem and in it depends on also the dynamics

01:10:49.180 political dynamics, from their individual achievements, yeah? I did this, I did that,

01:10:54.320 I did this, okay? But a lot of people really, it's actually, especially if you don't have those

01:10:58.900 individual achievements. If you can't say, oh, I have this, or I've done that, or I've done this,

01:11:03.120 or I've done that, then you are looking for something to give you that esteem. And then

01:11:06.540 somebody gives it to you on a platter of gold. Dude, you don't have to have done anything

01:11:09.880 in your life. The fact that you were born British or Polish makes you a superior person already.

01:11:17.460 That's all you need.

01:11:18.380 Come on, who wouldn't want that?

01:11:19.400 It's easy, man.

01:11:20.000 See, this is why I think the traditional kind of classical liberalism

01:11:23.400 is such a powerful antidote to identity politics

01:11:26.340 because if you teach people that your value and your status

01:11:30.300 and everything about your life depends on your individual behaviour,

01:11:34.160 on how you conduct yourself, on what you yourself achieve,

01:11:37.440 then people who are in that position,

01:11:40.060 who understand the world through that lens,

01:11:41.760 they're never going to be drawn to the racism of the far right

01:11:45.120 or to this identitarianism of the far left

01:11:47.600 because they understand that fundamentally

01:11:49.300 it's your job as a human being

01:11:51.180 to take the circumstances in which you're born

01:11:53.380 and to do the best possible that you can in those circumstances.

01:11:57.100 And I think that's why we talk about these issues with a lot of people

01:11:59.840 because I think that message of individual responsibility

01:12:03.180 has to be spread as far and wide as possible, in my opinion,

01:12:07.040 because identity politics on the right and left, I think, is very dangerous.

01:12:12.020 It's dangerous on both sides.

01:12:13.220 I agree.

01:12:13.580 The problem with what you propose is that it's difficult.

01:12:20.680 Oh, yeah.

01:12:21.360 It's difficult.

01:12:22.680 What is easier?

01:12:24.140 For me to say, okay, my life depends on my individual effort and what I have done, okay?

01:12:32.200 And if, let's say, I haven't reached a stage in life or I don't have the kind of esteem within society that I thought I would have,

01:12:39.800 then probably this is my fault.

01:12:41.360 Is that easier to do?

01:12:42.800 Or is it easier for me to believe that if there is something going on in my life, which, if I'm not where I wanted to be, then it's because of somebody else?

01:12:53.700 Of course, that second option is much easier.

01:12:55.540 It's much more attractive.

01:12:56.360 It's much more seductive.

01:12:58.180 Telling people, look, it depends on you, you're pushing the responsibility on people.

01:13:02.640 That's difficult.

01:13:04.200 Because then there's no excuses.

01:13:05.700 There's no one to blame.

01:13:07.580 People don't want that very often.

01:13:09.220 People don't want that.

01:13:09.980 They want to be able to say, look, it's not my fault.

01:13:12.180 Come on, something.

01:13:12.800 Somebody must have caused these problems, you know,

01:13:15.180 and that's why right-wing populism and stuff, you know,

01:13:17.760 is so seductive because you are, you take,

01:13:20.720 you sort of lift the burden of responsibility

01:13:22.860 from the individual, you know, and say,

01:13:25.880 oh, it's not your fault.

01:13:27.400 It's because of these people.

01:13:28.900 Right.

01:13:29.420 You're not unemployed because you haven't studied well.

01:13:32.580 Oh, you're lazy.

01:13:33.440 Yeah.

01:13:33.740 Yeah.

01:13:34.200 You're unemployed because of immigrants.

01:13:35.480 Because they're immigrants, you understand.

01:13:36.780 And then you're like, oh, wow, oh,

01:13:39.100 so I'm not that crap after all.

01:13:41.720 You know.

01:13:42.400 it's seductive

01:13:43.680 well listen it's been

01:13:46.760 an absolutely eye opening to me

01:13:48.600 it's been fantastic to have you on

01:13:50.040 you're probably one of the most intelligent

01:13:52.200 and kind of nuanced guests

01:13:53.480 we tried to get you to take some extreme positions

01:13:56.160 but you always had a bit of nuance

01:13:57.800 and you always had a bit of balance

01:13:59.560 so it's been really great

01:14:01.020 I'm incredibly sweaty at the moment

01:14:02.400 but it's been fantastic

01:14:05.840 the question we always like to end on

01:14:07.380 is the one thing that you think we as a society

01:14:09.800 aren't talking about that we ought to be talking about

01:14:12.200 not really honestly speaking i mean the big issue which i think apart i think there's two issues

01:14:19.460 which are going to sort of shape political discussion in the next five ten years and that's

01:14:24.680 identity and inequality okay and we talked about the identity issue today and there's a lot of talk

01:14:30.080 about identity politics the second issue is inequality and i can't say uh i mean whatever

01:14:36.780 you may think of him right now

01:14:39.820 etc but you know Corbyn and Labour etc

01:14:41.580 they've been attacking that issue very strongly

01:14:43.580 and they've been talking about it very strongly

01:14:45.080 which I think is one issue which Labour is winning on right now

01:14:47.920 the inequality issue

01:14:48.900 the Conservatives are winning on the identity issue

01:14:51.460 Labour is winning

01:14:53.880 on the inequality issue

01:14:54.600 how are the Conservatives winning on the identity issue

01:14:58.240 they're winning on the identity issue

01:14:59.880 because the Conservatives

01:15:01.920 you know one have sort of

01:15:03.880 at least you know

01:15:05.140 in official rhetoric, said, look, we respect the Brexit decision of the British people

01:15:10.060 to leave the European Union, so basically, we accept that British people, I don't know,

01:15:15.600 want to stay British or are more British than European, however you may choose to portray

01:15:22.580 that, so we accept that, definitely, okay?

01:15:26.280 Two, clearly, I would argue, the Conservative Party have always placed more emphasis on

01:15:32.180 things like patriotism, you know, loving Britain, et cetera, yeah, than, for instance, the left,

01:15:38.500 which is usually very critical, yeah? So, on these issues, I would say, I'm probably,

01:15:44.300 I don't know if there's been such a survey, but I would assume that if Brits were asked,

01:15:48.940 for instance, which is the more patriotic party, I'm pretty much sure they would say the

01:15:56.140 Conservatives are the more patriotic party, the Tories are the more patriotic party,

01:15:59.060 Whereas if they were asked which is the party which is addressing inequalities more or talking

01:16:03.520 about inequalities more, they would probably say it's Labour talking about inequalities

01:16:07.100 more.

01:16:08.100 So the party, the political movement, which is able to provide an adequate response to

01:16:14.860 these two issues owns the political future in Britain and in Europe and in the West.

01:16:21.820 Fascinating.

01:16:23.820 Thank you so much for coming on.

01:16:24.900 Before we let you go, your Twitter handle is?

01:16:27.740 perfect so we'll send everybody your way

01:16:32.000 and thank you very much for tuning in

01:16:34.460 this week we've got more fantastic interviews

01:16:36.440 coming up we hope you enjoyed it and we'll see you soon

01:16:38.540 yeah and there'll probably be a new presenter

01:16:40.160 because I'll be fired

01:16:40.900 I'll fire you right live on camera

01:16:44.740 now and as always remember

01:16:46.360 to subscribe to our channel if you enjoy it

01:16:48.180 and if you're already subscribed remember to

01:16:50.440 click that bell button next to subscribe button

01:16:52.360 so that you get notified whenever we release

01:16:54.580 a fantastic interview like this

01:16:56.460 We're on Twitter and other social media at TriggerPod.

01:17:00.440 Follow us, comment, suggest new guests for us to talk to and have a good week.

TRIGGERnometry - September 10, 2018

Remi Adekoya on Black Identity Politics, Racism, White Privilege & Populism

Episode Stats

Length

Words per Minute

Word Count

Sentence Count

Misogynist Sentences

Hate Speech Sentences

Summary

Transcript