TRIGGERnometry - Rod Liddle Unfiltered： Political Correctness, Brexit & the Liberal Elite

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00:00:14.540 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:22.280 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:23.500 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:24.640 And this is a show for you.

00:00:26.220 If you're bored with people arguing on the internet

00:00:28.440 over subjects they know nothing about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts,

00:00:34.220 we ask the experts. Our fantastic guest this week is a journalist and the author of The Great Betrayal,

00:00:40.040 The True Story of Brexit. Rod Lill, welcome to Trigonometry. Thanks so much for asking me. Thank

00:00:44.760 you. It's great to have you. Before I go on, this is the book. Make sure you get it. This is what

00:00:48.560 we'll be talking about. But before we get into it, for anyone who doesn't know who you are,

00:00:53.320 which is a small number of people these days, just tell everybody who are you,

00:00:57.420 How are you where you are?

00:00:58.540 What has been your journey through life?

00:01:00.140 Because we always find that quite interesting.

00:01:01.720 All right.

00:01:02.100 OK, sure. 0.95

00:01:02.860 Well, I'm a media whore and I'm a journalist, a hack, a columnist for the Sunday Times, 0.97

00:01:10.460 a spectator in the sun. 0.95

00:01:12.460 I once was a speechwriter for the BBC.

00:01:15.380 After that, I worked for the speechwriter for the BBC.

00:01:19.120 There's a Freudian.

00:01:19.980 Yeah, I was going to say.

00:01:20.520 Speechwriter for the Labour Party.

00:01:21.880 After that, I worked for the BBC and found the illusion between the two very easy indeed, as you can imagine.

00:01:31.120 My point has always been to say what I think people believe but are too scared to say for reasons of either direct political correctness or indirect political correctness.

00:01:45.300 There's a slight difference between the two.

00:01:46.780 And also to make people laugh. I mean, most of my job is to amuse.

00:01:52.740 For that, I usually get called a racist and a homophobe because I have made jokes about black people before and indeed gay people. 0.98

00:02:01.120 But I like to think of myself in a very real sense as an equal opportunities cunt, as someone who will offend everybody, 0.95

00:02:09.380 Including, you know, the people I come from up in the northeast of England and people who live in Brighton, especially maybe people who live in Brighton and French people. 0.89

00:02:20.880 Everybody, they are all in there.

00:02:23.060 I don't think I think everybody has the right to have the piss taken out of them, including me. 0.99

00:02:29.020 I think that's a beautiful thing about the French in that people say you can't take the piss out of black people, gay people. 0.99

00:02:33.680 But French, it's fine, they deserve it. 1.00

00:02:36.400 Yeah, except it changes.

00:02:37.740 You know, it used to be like that about the Welsh.

00:02:39.380 Oh, I tried that a couple of years ago.

00:02:43.060 Oh, really?

00:02:43.600 Did it turn nasty?

00:02:44.460 You've got to stop that, boy-o. 1.00

00:02:47.820 They actually called the fucking police. 0.99

00:02:51.480 You know, it was one of the least defensive things I've ever said in my life. 0.99

00:02:56.700 I happened to mention that there was a paucity of vowels in the Welsh language,

00:03:02.280 which isn't a terribly original observation, nor a terribly funny one.

00:03:07.620 and they went do lally

00:03:09.880 and

00:03:11.080 the Welsh Language

00:03:14.060 Society said

00:03:15.660 it's important we must stick to

00:03:18.040 freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is

00:03:20.100 the most important thing

00:03:21.580 but 0.99

00:03:23.040 so it's this fucking but 0.99

00:03:26.140 we must stop people 0.99

00:03:28.040 generating hate

00:03:30.000 about our language. Generating

00:03:32.120 hate about your fucking 1.00

00:03:33.740 nog in the nog language 1.00

00:03:35.340 You know, you carry on with it, Thomas, and your tank engine.

00:03:40.100 Now, that's Isle of Man, isn't it?

00:03:42.200 Well, one Isle of Man viewer is now switched up.

00:03:44.820 Sorry about that.

00:03:45.860 But one bloke, he actually reported to the police and said,

00:03:52.140 can we investigate this to see if this is a race hater crime,

00:03:56.380 suggesting that there are not many vowels in the Welsh language.

00:03:59.960 And the thing which struck me was that he was actually the police commissioner for North Wales.

00:04:06.680 Oh, wow.

00:04:07.640 And he referred it.

00:04:09.700 And presumably, you know, he should have been investigated for wasting police time.

00:04:15.420 So be careful.

00:04:18.280 Within a year or two, the French. 0.98

00:04:22.120 You'll knock it away with the French. 1.00

00:04:23.620 We'll be left with having to pick on tiny minority countries, you know. 1.00

00:04:29.960 Cape Verde or something.

00:04:31.200 Yeah.

00:04:32.440 Cabo Verde.

00:04:33.520 Yeah, Cabo Verde.

00:04:35.540 Yeah.

00:04:36.180 You mispronounced the name and that's it.

00:04:37.720 No, no, no.

00:04:38.520 That's it for me.

00:04:39.220 You're off to jail.

00:04:40.240 I quite like that you clarified that it was one specific Welshman

00:04:43.060 because initially you said they called it

00:04:44.600 and I just had this image in my head of like the whole of Wales.

00:04:46.720 No, but of course that's the point.

00:04:49.280 Yeah.

00:04:49.420 And of course that's the point.

00:04:50.820 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:51.240 Because I got loads of letters in from people saying,

00:04:54.380 from people in Carmarthen and Cardiff and Rill saying,

00:04:58.460 God, I'm so sorry.

00:04:59.960 When did we lose our sense of humor?

00:05:05.120 So no, of course not.

00:05:06.920 It's that liberal elite with their vested interests

00:05:10.640 who desperately desire a sense of victimhood. 1.00

00:05:16.540 And I suppose they are victims because they're sick as shit. 1.00

00:05:20.520 It's the important thing, I think. 1.00

00:05:23.100 Well, we've started off with what we were going to talk about later.

00:05:26.020 Why don't we just carry on down this path and get to Brexit later?

00:05:29.960 How about that, Francis?

00:05:30.800 Absolutely. 1.00

00:05:31.420 So you say you're an equal opportunities cunt. 0.99

00:05:35.480 And I read your articles in The Times, and I think they're incredibly funny. 0.99

00:05:40.480 Has there ever been a point where you've made a joke that actually you look back on and you think,

00:05:44.840 I shouldn't have said that.

00:05:46.260 That was too far over the line.

00:05:49.140 No, but there's been an occasion every week without fail where I look at something I've written

00:05:56.340 and think, oh, in the current climate, I shouldn't have written that.

00:06:04.680 I wonder if the subs will take it out or the editor will take it out.

00:06:10.700 And then I think, no, you've got to do that.

00:06:15.840 You cannot be constrained by this stuff.

00:06:21.060 Otherwise, it makes you boring and partisan.

00:06:25.060 And I try not to be partisan in my offensiveness.

00:06:29.280 It's sprayed around liberally like Jimmy Savile would have sprayed around his seed.

00:06:37.060 I could conjure up that image for you.

00:06:42.000 Which is a pleasant image.

00:06:44.520 I mean, you're right.

00:06:45.860 What happens actually is my wife reads my copy before I send it in with a glass of wine. 0.99

00:06:53.400 And she reads through it.

00:06:54.320 And she's for a quiet life.

00:06:58.420 And she says, Rod, you can't say this.

00:07:01.080 And I said, why can't I?

00:07:02.140 It's true.

00:07:02.740 You know it's true.

00:07:04.240 And it's funny.

00:07:07.140 They'll cut it out.

00:07:08.240 And if they don't cut it out, the police will get involved.

00:07:11.200 And she's invariably right.

00:07:13.020 But you cannot stop doing that.

00:07:14.780 And yet it is getting more and more the case that you self-police.

00:07:24.400 It gets less funny.

00:07:30.460 It's more and more the case every week that goes by.

00:07:34.080 I thought we were at something.

00:07:35.420 I mentioned this on a different program before now.

00:07:37.600 I thought that maybe last year we were at something called Peak Wank.

00:07:41.140 nah

00:07:44.480 it's still

00:07:45.680 it's getting worse

00:07:46.560 it's getting worse

00:07:47.640 and do you think

00:07:49.340 there's going to be

00:07:49.780 a backlash

00:07:50.100 because I talk

00:07:50.860 a lot with comedians

00:07:51.600 we both do

00:07:52.260 and when you look

00:07:53.940 at something like

00:07:54.640 Dave Chappelle

00:07:55.300 has released

00:07:56.000 this new special

00:07:56.940 Chappelle

00:07:58.060 isn't it Chappelle

00:08:00.200 no I think

00:08:02.080 well it's Chappelle

00:08:02.780 I heard him

00:08:04.200 refer to himself

00:08:05.200 as Chappelle

00:08:05.840 but

00:08:06.060 yeah

00:08:07.760 yeah

00:08:08.720 of course there is

00:08:09.560 of course

00:08:09.960 there's that

00:08:11.040 And on the other side is Stuart Lee, who, you know, I can remember Stuart Lee ruffling a few feathers by saying that, what's he called?

00:08:21.740 That guy from the driving program that people used to watch.

00:08:26.240 Jeremy Clarkson.

00:08:26.840 Jeremy Clarkson, May.

00:08:28.280 And Peter Hammond.

00:08:29.560 Hammond, Hammond.

00:08:31.080 Yeah, Richard Hammond.

00:08:31.880 Richard Hammond.

00:08:33.160 Peter Hammond.

00:08:34.160 Peter, who's that?

00:08:35.160 Albert Hammond.

00:08:36.040 Yeah.

00:08:36.380 that he wished he'd died or his children were blind or something.

00:08:43.020 Which is good comedy, which is good comedy.

00:08:46.660 And comedy coming from the left and driven from the left,

00:08:50.320 from the liberal left, I wouldn't call it the proper left. 1.00

00:08:53.220 I mean, he's another fucking public school boy. 0.99

00:08:55.620 When it comes down to it, brilliant though he is. 0.99

00:08:59.880 I think you guys are at the forefront of it.

00:09:02.120 I mean, Constantine, you're the one who has to sign a five-page document

00:09:07.220 when you go on stage at a university because there are so many things

00:09:11.300 which now are not considered to be funny.

00:09:14.180 And if I may say so, you may get away with slightly more than I

00:09:18.060 because you come from what is called a BM, BME?

00:09:23.380 Yeah, I don't self-identify as BME, though.

00:09:25.600 Yeah, but you are, mate.

00:09:28.100 I identify you as one of them.

00:09:29.960 Well, maybe I should do this because that would definitely get me a lot further in my career.

00:09:34.460 It would get you a lot further.

00:09:36.660 But also, but of course, counting against you is, of course, you're Jewish.

00:09:41.380 Yeah.

00:09:42.860 And I don't say that lightly either.

00:09:46.340 And so, no, you guys are more at the front of it than I am.

00:09:49.220 I mean.

00:09:50.480 You know, in France's question, this is, I think, what he's getting at in terms of the backlash.

00:09:54.100 Like, I did a show about that contract this year at Edinburgh, and it did very, very well.

00:09:59.960 With the public and with a lot of reviews. I obviously got a lot of, you know, The Guardian and all these people slammed it, but I got a lot of...

00:10:06.700 That twat, Brian. Brian, see him. One star. 0.96

00:10:13.000 I wish he'd given me a one star. What he did is actually he went to see all the non-woke comedians, and instead of giving us a review,

00:10:19.880 he did a whole write-up in which essentially he wouldn't actually give any of us a review, he just made a few comments about everybody.

00:10:26.160 He's a man who knows nothing about comedy.

00:10:28.780 He's a theater critic.

00:10:29.660 He does not have a single humorous vein in his body.

00:10:34.880 It's like Margaret Thatcher being a comedy critic.

00:10:38.520 Sorry, go on.

00:10:40.240 But my point is that those of us, me, Leo, Jeff Norcock, Andrew Doyle,

00:10:45.240 who you might know who's the creator of Titania McGrath,

00:10:47.600 we all did pretty well, right?

00:10:49.400 So when Francis is asking about the backlash,

00:10:51.880 do you sense that maybe the peak wank point is coming?

00:10:56.020 Well, no, I mean, in a sense, the reason I don't think there's a backlash,

00:11:00.060 I think the people are with us.

00:11:01.920 I think these people who try to stop us and what we say have power without hegemony.

00:11:09.980 Their views are not shared by the majority of people in the country remotely.

00:11:17.060 But they are shared by the BBC commissioning team and they are shared by the Liberal Elite.

00:11:23.720 And the people who dictate, as the words you use, the current climate.

00:11:28.060 Yes.

00:11:28.640 Yeah.

00:11:29.620 Do you know, I heard a story only yesterday on the BBC.

00:11:37.160 This is kind of where they're coming from.

00:11:38.560 This is Radio 5 Live.

00:11:40.420 And it was about some lesbians having a night out, a nice night out. 1.00

00:11:45.520 I think it was in Leeds. 0.68

00:11:46.640 and a vicious hate crime

00:11:50.060 had been committed

00:11:50.720 which the police

00:11:52.440 were reluctant to follow up

00:11:54.740 and Radio 5 Live

00:11:57.020 got themselves very worked up on it.

00:11:58.820 You found out what exactly had happened

00:12:00.700 and some drunk bloke

00:12:03.180 shouted, 1.00

00:12:04.600 hello, is this a fat homosexual contingent then? 1.00

00:12:08.920 That was it. 0.99

00:12:10.200 It's not a hate crime.

00:12:12.600 And I think

00:12:13.160 when that is broadcast

00:12:14.640 with this sense of outrage

00:12:16.580 It's a horrible thing to say.

00:12:18.400 Well, it's not horrible.

00:12:19.520 It's nasty. 1.00

00:12:21.000 It's pig ignorant. 1.00

00:12:22.840 But it's not, you know, get in the cattle vans, is it? 0.99

00:12:27.120 You know, when that is broadcast as being something about which we should be viscerally outraged,

00:12:36.200 I think the public listen to that and think, what?

00:12:40.740 I don't think they are anywhere near where the BBC is on this issue.

00:12:45.440 You know, I just don't think they, I think, and this is where it comes into Brexit, where Brexit comes into the picture, which is that there is such a disconnect between this liberal elite and the country, between parliament and the country, but also between the judiciary, the BBC, the civil service, and what we consider the rest of the country.

00:13:13.340 There's just no shared common view of the world.

00:13:17.240 They're at odds with each other.

00:13:19.620 I think they'd go along to your gigs and laugh.

00:13:22.340 I think, like, know that they laugh at the stuff I write,

00:13:27.600 apart from the man yesterday in Canterbury Station.

00:13:31.140 Oh, I enjoyed reading your Facebook update about that.

00:13:33.640 I sent it to France as we both laughed.

00:13:35.520 That's absolutely true.

00:13:37.100 Sometimes.

00:13:37.860 Did you just tell everybody what happened?

00:13:39.100 Well, I go to London sometimes, as infrequently as possible,

00:13:44.040 and people come up and say, I really love your stuff.

00:13:46.640 Thank you.

00:13:47.100 Please keep writing it.

00:13:48.740 And that'll be maybe four out of five. 1.00

00:13:50.880 But one person will always walk by and go, cunt. 1.00

00:13:54.220 And that's fine. 0.99

00:13:58.020 Yesterday, at the station, I was buying a ticket,

00:14:02.040 and a youngish bloke walked by, and he just turned to me and went,

00:14:04.800 racist, in that ovine way that they have.

00:14:08.360 but so intent was he

00:14:12.780 in delivering this judgment

00:14:14.520 he failed to notice a large door

00:14:16.840 in front of him and smashed

00:14:18.820 into it, smashed his face

00:14:20.700 into it and smashed his arm on the handle 0.66

00:14:22.800 and I just heard him go

00:14:23.560 I just stood there

00:14:26.440 if it had been 1.00

00:14:28.620 appropriate I would have masturbated 1.00

00:14:30.400 would that have been peak wank? 1.00

00:14:33.780 that would have been peak wank

00:14:36.640 I enjoyed reading that

00:14:39.040 because the instant karma moments

00:14:40.900 they are enjoyable

00:14:41.720 it happens quite a bit

00:14:44.380 two other occasions in London

00:14:46.760 both in London

00:14:47.780 one was when I was getting on a tube

00:14:51.800 at Stratford

00:14:52.620 and it was quite crowded

00:14:54.500 the tube was about to go, doors were about to shut 0.88

00:14:56.920 and there was this black lady 1.00

00:14:59.000 with two carrier bags

00:15:00.620 and the doors were about to shut

00:15:03.160 I held the doors open for her 0.95

00:15:04.920 took one of the bags

00:15:06.040 and helped her

00:15:06.680 onto the train

00:15:07.580 and a bloke

00:15:08.920 sitting down

00:15:09.860 nearby said

00:15:10.580 I wouldn't have

00:15:11.960 expected you

00:15:12.540 to do that

00:15:13.180 it's just

00:15:18.260 utterly bizarre

00:15:19.500 and there was

00:15:20.120 one other

00:15:20.520 I was walking

00:15:21.420 with the

00:15:22.240 I was having

00:15:23.940 lunch with

00:15:24.420 Ineek

00:15:24.860 Bunglawala

00:15:25.540 who was

00:15:26.640 at the time

00:15:28.080 the number

00:15:29.400 two or three

00:15:30.020 in the Muslim

00:15:30.500 Council of Britain

00:15:31.260 we were having

00:15:32.260 a lunch

00:15:33.400 to talk about

00:15:34.160 you know

00:15:34.820 Islam and stuff and

00:15:36.120 I've known him for years

00:15:38.280 and we were crossing a busy road

00:15:40.520 in I think

00:15:42.460 I think it was Hoban area

00:15:44.740 crossing a very busy road

00:15:46.360 and a woman ran 1.00

00:15:48.940 through the traffic

00:15:50.680 from one of the

00:15:52.820 payments and ran up to him

00:15:54.580 and tugged on him in his sleeve and said

00:15:56.100 you know who that is don't you

00:15:58.720 So there is this minority which, you know, hangs on its every word. 0.91

00:16:11.300 You know, the Owen Jones, the people with the IQ of Owen.

00:16:16.280 But I think the vast majority of the public just thinks this is an annoying diversion from what we should be talking about.

00:16:26.200 At the last election, a bit of polling has been done in the States.

00:16:32.940 Political correctness was a really, really big reason why Donald Trump won.

00:16:40.780 So congratulations, USA.

00:16:43.780 Well done.

00:16:45.080 You've got Donald.

00:16:47.920 And, you know, so when you talk about a backlash, I think people are averse to it.

00:16:53.640 I don't think they, whether it's a background, I think they've always been averse to it.

00:16:58.300 They're sick of it.

00:17:01.220 How that expresses itself in the end politically is a more difficult thing to talk about.

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00:19:30.640 without any of the drama well let's talk about it because it's the brexit conversation yeah yeah

00:19:38.680 well it is a brexit conversation and i i remember reading one of your articles and you were talking

00:19:44.680 about how it was the morning when the results came through leave vote one and i think it was

00:19:51.400 you who turned to your wife or your wife turned to you and said they're not gonna let this go

00:19:55.820 through are they? Yeah and I was

00:19:57.480 it was Lissy who'd been

00:19:59.040 up all night

00:20:00.560 because she's a political junkie 1.00

00:20:03.880 and loves elections

00:20:05.780 and so that was the first

00:20:07.780 night that I was roused from my sleep at 5

00:20:09.820 in the morning

00:20:10.340 get up Rod, get up Rod

00:20:13.340 we've done it and I was

00:20:15.320 done what?

00:20:18.620 3 months later

00:20:19.900 3 months later I was

00:20:21.680 lying in bed 5 o'clock in the morning

00:20:23.740 Get up Rod, get up Rod. He's done it. He's done it. Donald. Fuck me. Anyway, you're right.

00:20:35.560 I went downstairs, saw the BBC studios where they were clearly sobbing. And I can't remember

00:20:46.740 who said it first, but I said they'll never let it happen. And I put that up on Facebook.

00:20:50.600 they just won't let it happen. The liberals hate being gainsaid on anything. So it's not

00:20:57.720 just Brexit. I mean, if you try to get someone who doesn't have liberal views into a position

00:21:02.720 of power, or even a minuscule position of power, such as we saw with Toby Young and

00:21:09.780 Roger Scruton recently.

00:21:11.820 They'll stop that.

00:21:19.860 It's something I call six degrees of Shami Chakrabarty.

00:21:24.440 It's a game you can play.

00:21:28.720 That all the quangos and institutions, the great and the good institutions, the BBC,

00:21:34.240 the third sector and so on

00:21:39.420 have this very small

00:21:41.040 coterie of people working for them

00:21:43.220 who are all appointed 1.00

00:21:44.140 I mean they don't have to go up and turn up for a fucking interview 0.99

00:21:47.160 you know, they're appointed 0.98

00:21:49.080 We've invited a lot of them and none of them

00:21:51.240 will come on

00:21:52.340 I think Shami at one point

00:21:55.280 was on about seven

00:21:56.280 and you can play Six Degrees with Shami Jakobati

00:21:59.380 just by going through the various crangles

00:22:01.280 and you can always link them up

00:22:02.820 you know, like that, like the Kevin Bacon thing.

00:22:06.680 And Yasmin Halabaya-Brown, for example,

00:22:09.000 who is a visiting professor at three universities

00:22:12.220 and is on various boards and so on.

00:22:18.600 Those are the people who control our cultural life.

00:22:25.180 And they will brook no argument.

00:22:27.740 you know if you are not of their bien pensant opinion you will not get anywhere

00:22:34.400 I do not know a single socially conservative journalist or right-wing journalist you know

00:22:42.680 down the line conservative which I'm not I do not know a single one who has been offered a

00:22:50.220 visiting professorship who has been asked to be on the board of the National Film Theatre

00:22:56.680 or the Migration Advisory Committee.

00:23:01.660 I could do that job.

00:23:03.560 I could stop them.

00:23:07.960 It just doesn't happen.

00:23:09.500 Paul Dacre, probably the most successful editor

00:23:13.600 that this country's seen for decades.

00:23:17.000 No one ever has.

00:23:18.340 Fraser Nelson, who's raised the spectators' figures

00:23:22.640 to 85,000.

00:23:25.040 Just incredible.

00:23:26.420 Brilliant journalist.

00:23:27.680 Never asked.

00:23:28.960 None of these people are ever asked. 1.00

00:23:31.020 Owen Jones, who is shit as a journalist, you know, a seriously awful journalist. 0.98

00:23:37.640 There are some good liberal left journalists. 1.00

00:23:39.700 He's not one of them.

00:23:41.060 And nor is Yasmin.

00:23:42.700 I'll tell you a funny story about Yasmin in a second. 0.93

00:23:44.820 Well, yeah, no, please do.

00:23:48.100 Visiting professor or honorary degrees.

00:23:50.220 It's just that is how our cultural life is controlled.

00:23:55.020 You know?

00:23:55.900 And I don't think people like it.

00:23:57.460 I don't think people like it.

00:23:58.780 I don't think people like it either,

00:24:00.180 and I think there's a real resentment to it.

00:24:02.720 And the problem is, for me,

00:24:04.820 is that a lot of these people live in their bubble,

00:24:07.480 where they interact with each other.

00:24:09.640 And all they have is their opinion

00:24:11.480 getting reflected back to them.

00:24:13.020 So when something like Trump or Brexit happens,

00:24:15.180 they're in complete shock.

00:24:16.180 Oh, no, you're absolutely right.

00:24:17.960 And that's the thing from the book.

00:24:20.960 Maybe the only time I'll mention the book, to be honest. 0.95

00:24:23.040 But I think it's the most salient of the chapters, which is an awful lot of work was done after Brexit by the horrified, horrified liberal elite saying, who are these ghastly fucking people who voted to leave?

00:24:36.160 And so there was demographies and everyone sort of came up with the same thing, which was that they were poorer, less well educated, which isn't true, nor is it totally true about the poorer stuff. 0.64

00:24:47.220 They tend to be northern away from cities, which is true, and so on and so on.

00:24:52.060 And yet, when you actually look more closely at the demographic which voted Leave, there's nothing really which pulls it together.

00:25:01.040 It's, you know, an amalgamation of people with very, very different views in different parts of the country and different parts of the social strata.

00:25:10.960 You know, I think it's 46% of the AB group, for example, you know, the top social group voted Leave.

00:25:19.400 One in three of university graduates.

00:25:21.380 You know, they wouldn't have won without the university graduates.

00:25:24.300 And so on and so on and so on.

00:25:26.220 And the young vote, you know, it was, I think, 50-50, aged 25 to 40.

00:25:35.700 It's not as simple as they put it.

00:25:37.560 But what there is, is a very interesting demographic of a portion of the Remain vote.

00:25:44.580 now most Remainers

00:25:46.540 I suspect are like us, like you guys

00:25:48.780 you voted Remain

00:25:50.300 because we're good people

00:25:52.460 you're good people

00:25:53.520 that's a running joke on the show

00:25:56.140 and we don't see colour

00:25:57.640 but most of us

00:26:01.460 it was a difficult decision

00:26:04.180 and we voted one way

00:26:06.040 or the other

00:26:07.900 and we can talk about it

00:26:09.700 and there's not a problem

00:26:10.860 and you know people who voted Leave

00:26:13.360 and I know people who voted Remain.

00:26:15.100 Most of my friends voted Remain.

00:26:17.160 There is this tranche of the Remain vote.

00:26:20.400 I don't know how much.

00:26:21.760 Looking at the figures,

00:26:23.420 my guess is somewhere between 20% to 30%.

00:26:27.720 I guess they're the 29% of Remain voters

00:26:34.040 who defriended anyone on Facebook who voted Leave.

00:26:38.400 That's an incredibly high amount.

00:26:40.800 Nearly once, you know, 29% they'd defend you just because you had a different opinion to them.

00:26:47.740 And it's the BBC, where my estimate is 94, 95% in favour of...

00:26:54.280 Well, no, I genuinely think that's a moderate assessment.

00:26:57.460 I mean, there are other ones.

00:26:58.840 And you're not just the guy talking, you used to work for the BBC.

00:27:00.720 I used to work for the BBC.

00:27:01.600 I mean, I know one person in the entire organisation who voted Leave.

00:27:05.720 And I know three or four hundred people in the BBC, you know.

00:27:12.040 But it's not just the BBC.

00:27:13.940 It's the creative industries, you know.

00:27:18.020 Sam West, we're all in mourning.

00:27:22.200 You can't.

00:27:24.720 It was something like 96% of the lovies.

00:27:28.800 Yeah.

00:27:30.420 It was 93% of academicians.

00:27:34.520 so the people in Chateau

00:27:36.140 universities

00:27:36.720 it was 70% of

00:27:39.960 teachers

00:27:40.560 and my guess is and I don't know this

00:27:44.020 for a fact, my guess is approaching

00:27:45.920 90% in the south of the

00:27:48.040 country

00:27:48.380 and these are people who simply

00:27:51.640 never met anyone

00:27:53.540 they really

00:27:56.120 are like Margaret Thatcher when she was asked

00:27:57.980 about the poor, oh we saw

00:28:00.000 them at the end of the street on occasions

00:28:02.240 they have never

00:28:04.060 actually come into contact with people who voted leave. They are entirely insulated.

00:28:13.160 And so that when they say, I don't know anyone who voted leave, they mean it and they're

00:28:16.520 telling the truth. And this echo chamber that they live in, and this is a great thing about

00:28:22.800 the Brexit vote, that it's exposed this massive divide, this incredible distance which there is

00:28:30.280 between what the American sociologist Charles Murray calls the super elite, what John Gray,

00:28:36.860 a far better writer in this country, calls the hyper liberals, who simply cannot countenance

00:28:43.580 argument, do not understand where that argument comes from, will categorize that argument as 1.00

00:28:48.900 coming from stupidity, ill education, and xenophobia, whenever it does occur, and are 1.00

00:28:55.280 constantly reinforced in their opinions by everyone else they fucking work with. 1.00

00:29:01.260 It is remarkable. 0.97

00:29:03.180 And Brexit deserves a round of applause for having opened that to us.

00:29:08.460 Because I don't think, it was always there,

00:29:11.440 but I don't think it was ever as clear as it is now.

00:29:14.860 And I think the point you just made is very, very true.

00:29:18.460 And the sentence that sums it up is what I hear all the time

00:29:21.860 from the hyper-liberal Remainers, which is,

00:29:24.680 not everyone who voted

00:29:26.980 leave was racist, but all

00:29:28.960 racists voted leave. You know who

00:29:30.860 came up with that, don't you? No.

00:29:33.640 Billy Cunting

00:29:34.720 Bragg.

00:29:36.660 And I wrote at the time,

00:29:38.760 yeah, Bill, yeah.

00:29:41.640 Not all

00:29:42.600 twats buy Billy Bragg records,

00:29:44.820 but everyone who's bought a Billy Bragg 0.99

00:29:46.700 record is a twat. 1.00

00:29:48.860 I mean, no, it's ridiculous. 1.00

00:29:50.980 And it was exploded, you know, 0.84

00:29:52.860 within

00:29:53.120 very unusually

00:29:56.480 by the BBC within two months of

00:29:58.720 Brexit. I remember 0.95

00:30:00.720 Adrian Childs did a piece

00:30:02.680 from Birmingham

00:30:03.220 where he just

00:30:06.820 interviewed the people who'd voted

00:30:08.020 leave. 0.99

00:30:10.640 And he said, I don't see

00:30:11.880 sorry, I can't really do Birmingham.

00:30:14.820 Shall I leave the accident?

00:30:18.180 I don't

00:30:18.920 see these people as being racist. These people aren't

00:30:20.820 racist. I didn't see any

00:30:22.860 racism in it at all.

00:30:26.840 There wasn't an animus against

00:30:28.700 immigrants.

00:30:30.880 There was an animus against a process which

00:30:32.840 had allowed untrammeled immigration, 1.00

00:30:35.340 number one.

00:30:36.760 There wasn't an animus against Polish

00:30:38.780 people. I mean, fucking hell, 1.00

00:30:41.120 they're to the right of us. 0.99

00:30:44.300 None of

00:30:45.060 that. It was

00:30:46.620 no, you know,

00:30:48.380 we would like to control our own borders. 0.89

00:30:50.740 We think that's a sensible way to go on.

00:30:54.620 And I've never seen the animus towards black, ethnic minority, Polish, whatever,

00:31:03.380 that the left insists is an integral part of wishing to leave. 0.79

00:31:08.220 It's just bollocks, absolute bollocks.

00:31:12.000 I'm curious about your position on this whole thing,

00:31:15.800 because as you said before we started the interview,

00:31:17.800 you weren't a particularly ardent lever.

00:31:20.520 You kind of voted to leave on the balance of things, but slightly.

00:31:27.120 There are great reasons to stay in the EU.

00:31:30.880 No question about it.

00:31:32.020 Like what?

00:31:32.960 Well, coming from the northeast of England, the amount of money that the EU poured into the northeast of England,

00:31:38.260 which I think, okay, we're now in charge of our finances, we can do it.

00:31:42.460 Will we?

00:31:43.800 It's rather good.

00:31:44.760 I think there was something like 120,000 jobs in the Northeast depend upon trade with Europe.

00:31:53.680 But also, something else I'm really interested in is science and research, and undemocratic

00:32:00.260 though it may be, I think there's something rather good about having certain funding ring

00:32:05.000 fenced from the five-year parliamentary cycle that can go to stuff like the Jet Taurus lab

00:32:10.100 in Oxford, so that we can

00:32:11.820 maybe find a form of energy which is

00:32:14.180 clean and

00:32:15.520 virtually

00:32:16.500 inexhaustible. All those

00:32:20.140 things are good. And, basically,

00:32:22.800 you know, I am

00:32:24.100 swayed a bit by

00:32:25.240 the notion that peace has reigned

00:32:28.180 in Europe for

00:32:28.960 a long time.

00:32:32.260 Those are the main reasons I voted remain.

00:32:33.900 It's a good reason.

00:32:36.160 You could argue that NATO's

00:32:37.660 part of that, or you could

00:32:39.900 argue that trade deals, that are decent trade. But still, it still seems to me to have some force

00:32:45.520 that, you know, we have had peace. And, you know, contrary to what people like Alistair Campbell

00:32:54.580 and Peter Mandelson would say, I feel European, you know. I like Europe. I'm particularly

00:33:01.220 Germanophile. Okay, I loathe France. You know, but we're not all perfect, are we, you know. 0.81

00:33:07.020 But I adore Europe, and particularly the parts of Europe which have more latterly been enjoined to join the European Union, such as, you know, Poland, the Baltic States, Hungary, and so on.

00:33:21.340 So I adore it.

00:33:22.520 I notice it's my culture.

00:33:24.840 I think that's kind of trumped a little bit by the fact that I also feel British, Anglo-Saxon, and therefore some connection with America.

00:33:35.700 You know, the first time I went to America, I felt at home immediately because it's where the novels I'd read, the music and so on.

00:33:42.220 And also the Commonwealth for historical reasons and for decent historical reasons.

00:33:47.640 You know, we have a responsibility.

00:33:50.020 So it was a very, very difficult call.

00:33:52.140 And I thought it was just about, it was just about the, in the end, the thing which won it for me was the European Union's increasingly authoritarian attitude towards countries under its dominion.

00:34:05.120 particularly Poland and Hungary, but also Catalonia, and its ever-increasing expansionism,

00:34:12.480 not geographically-wise, but policy-wise, that it wished control over all of us.

00:34:18.420 And I think the nation-state kind of works.

00:34:21.520 It's why I'm a social democrat.

00:34:23.060 You know, I think the nation-state kind of works.

00:34:26.260 It works for us.

00:34:27.540 I can equally see why, if you're Luxembourgish or German, for differing reasons,

00:34:35.120 you may have problems about the nation-state and its power.

00:34:39.020 I get that, but we're not them.

00:34:42.060 And the thing that nobody really talks about is how sustainable is the EU,

00:34:47.740 even if we remain within it?

00:34:49.420 Because if you look at the northern European states and the southern European states, 0.99

00:34:54.120 I mean, the southern European states, number one, to put it bluntly, are fucked economically. 0.99

00:34:58.920 They always fucking were, mate. 0.99

00:34:59.940 I wrote a piece for the Spectator about 10 years ago now 0.99

00:35:06.980 where I said what I'd really like is a kind of Hanseatic League.

00:35:11.000 That's what I'd like, a trading bloc. 0.97

00:35:13.460 And I'd get rid of the Catholics first. 1.00

00:35:18.340 I'm sorry. 0.98

00:35:20.180 That's Spain, Italy.

00:35:22.220 Actually, parts of Italy are allowed in.

00:35:24.920 Milan is allowed in.

00:35:26.980 Turin?

00:35:27.540 Turin is allowed in.

00:35:28.840 Milan is allowed in.

00:35:29.360 Because it's not really Italian.

00:35:30.900 You go there, it's like Austria.

00:35:32.600 It's Germany. 0.53

00:35:33.360 Yeah, exactly.

00:35:34.680 So hardworking northern Protestant people.

00:35:38.640 And a few Slavs.

00:35:40.380 Because they're hardworking and clever as well.

00:35:42.380 You know what I like about Rod?

00:35:43.360 He gets accused of being racist and the naughty

00:35:45.340 and his favourite country in Europe is Germany.

00:35:47.580 That's right.

00:35:48.380 Well, that's very true.

00:35:49.160 But it could be worse.

00:35:49.880 It could be Austria.

00:35:51.300 Because that's where the best ones were from.

00:35:53.680 Actually, Lithuania.

00:35:54.980 but no

00:36:01.060 it always struck me

00:36:02.540 it's true about the racism

00:36:05.060 in a way in that my objections

00:36:06.860 to the European Union back in the

00:36:08.880 90s were racist

00:36:10.640 in that or at least

00:36:14.480 left wingers would call them racist

00:36:16.940 what I thought was much as you've just said

00:36:19.140 that I don't think that Greece

00:36:20.880 Italy and Spain

00:36:21.960 are either culturally or economically

00:36:24.780 in the same area as we are.

00:36:28.020 I would have them form a different block, you know,

00:36:31.260 which is nice, easygoing people who go to sleep at midday.

00:36:36.720 You know, they could have their block over there.

00:36:39.480 And I think I was right.

00:36:42.240 I don't think that cultural difference has ever been assuaged.

00:36:48.000 I think that's still there.

00:36:49.260 And, of course, it was behind the great crisis with Spain and Portugal, 0.54

00:36:52.660 The pigs, Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Ireland. 0.87

00:36:58.180 And Ireland. 0.93

00:37:02.360 I'm wondering who's still watching this,

00:37:04.320 who hasn't switched off and unsubscribed and reported.

00:37:07.340 I'm going to be at a trade stage and someone's going to go.

00:37:10.760 I'm joking partly.

00:37:12.620 So are we.

00:37:14.420 Of course.

00:37:15.220 Of course, of course, of course.

00:37:16.260 Absolutely.

00:37:16.880 That's the point.

00:37:17.540 But isn't part of this, okay, and we are joking, of course,

00:37:20.400 But doesn't the euro have to take responsibility in that that currency has been manufactured, created to suit the Germanic economy and everybody else who's got, you know, economy depends on agriculture and tourism. 1.00

00:37:36.080 Fuck them. 1.00

00:37:37.460 Partly, partly. 1.00

00:37:38.740 But the euro was a bad idea.

00:37:40.660 Every single opinion poll in the 1990s, which was about whether we should join a single currency.

00:37:46.320 No.

00:37:46.520 And every single opinion poll in the 1990s about whether we should stay in the EU, always yes.

00:37:53.880 And you can add into the euro the European Central Bank, which is ineffectual, weak, doesn't know what it's doing.

00:38:02.680 So, yes.

00:38:05.820 But that's the thing.

00:38:07.360 The rather horrible truth is that one of the reasons I voted leave reluctantly was in the hope that if we left, the European Union might be forced to reform itself a bit and might shift a little bit more along the axis, which I, and by the sound of it, you, would prefer.

00:38:32.880 Now, I think I probably got that wrong, but there has been a change.

00:38:38.000 You know, we have seen across Europe populists from both the left and right.

00:38:42.780 People always forget.

00:38:43.840 People when they denigrate populists, it's fascism, you know, it's Hitler,

00:38:49.100 as everything is sort of deferred to these days, referred to these days.

00:38:54.240 There's populism from the left.

00:38:56.300 Syriza was populism from the left.

00:38:58.480 There's a good argument as well.

00:39:02.100 The SNP is populism from the left.

00:39:05.740 And Corbyn, for that matter.

00:39:08.500 Please don't say anything about sainted Jeremy.

00:39:10.800 He's probably remain.

00:39:12.900 He's never been frowning.

00:39:15.920 He's just frowning the bear there.

00:39:18.180 I just threw that off.

00:39:20.600 We can come on to him if you like.

00:39:22.060 But no, what I hoped was that we might get back to being a trading bloc.

00:39:27.560 And if you look at the opinion polls in Europe, with the exception of a few countries, and bizarrely Luxembourg is counted as a country, why is it? 0.98

00:39:41.880 I mean, who gives a fuck? 0.99

00:39:44.220 You know? 0.99

00:39:45.880 It's like when this all happened, when Brexit happened.

00:39:49.280 And I heard on the radio we were being lectured to by an Estonian. 1.00

00:39:58.020 What the fuck? 1.00

00:39:59.760 You're telling us? 1.00

00:40:01.320 You know, I do think there's a bit tail wagging the dog.

00:40:03.000 On behalf of all Eastern Europeans, I'm deeply offended by this.

00:40:06.340 But see, the great thing...

00:40:07.420 Well, they're not Eastern Europeans. 0.98

00:40:08.200 Don't forget, they're pseudo-Fins, I guess. 1.00

00:40:11.780 Pseudo-Scandies.

00:40:12.920 Pseudo-Scandies.

00:40:13.560 Yeah, they are, actually.

00:40:14.420 The Livonian Order and all that.

00:40:15.420 And it's a beautiful country, and they're good people.

00:40:16.840 what I mean is that

00:40:18.180 they're good people from a tiny insignificant 0.94

00:40:22.940 country no one gives a fuck about 0.82

00:40:24.160 see the good thing about offending people from Luxembourg 1.00

00:40:26.780 is there's so few of them it doesn't really matter

00:40:28.420 we are where we are what I actually wanted to talk

00:40:32.860 to you about is I think

00:40:34.880 the area of agreement between us probably

00:40:36.860 more than anything is what has happened

00:40:38.620 since the referendum

00:40:40.300 because both Francis and I voted remain

00:40:42.800 but I think anyone with any

00:40:44.960 sense now has to recognize

00:40:46.760 that, well, it just doesn't make sense.

00:40:49.800 We have a parliament that refuses to respect the wishes of the people.

00:40:53.400 We have a prime minister who's now, you could say,

00:40:55.660 forced to not respect the wishes of parliament.

00:40:57.900 We've had a parliament that is just not representative of the country at all

00:41:02.540 in terms of that crucial issue that's the only issue.

00:41:05.700 Do you know what we need to do?

00:41:07.560 We need to rerun the referendum.

00:41:10.940 Not the Brexit referendum, the AV referendum.

00:41:15.580 Proportional representation.

00:41:17.720 I've always been first past the post, always.

00:41:21.180 But when you look at the House of Commons now,

00:41:23.800 I mean, basically, the problem is,

00:41:26.980 and always was right from the start,

00:41:28.720 it was something in the region of 6 to 1 in favour of Remain.

00:41:35.560 And every major party had a majority in favour of Remain,

00:41:39.760 apart from the DUP.

00:41:44.380 But it's not just that, is it?

00:41:46.760 You know, it's not just that.

00:41:49.060 It's that my suspicion is that an awful lot of the public,

00:41:55.800 particularly in the areas I come from,

00:41:57.560 but I think a large proportion of the public,

00:42:00.940 are economically fairly leftish.

00:42:04.760 They agree with nationalization. 0.61

00:42:06.620 The polls tend to support that.

00:42:08.860 Higher taxes, yeah, we can go along with that.

00:42:10.840 Improves society.

00:42:12.480 Higher minimum, yeah, we can do all that.

00:42:14.440 We can do all that.

00:42:15.280 but are socially quite conservative.

00:42:18.180 And that is not remotely reflected in Parliament,

00:42:21.660 where people are neoliberal,

00:42:23.380 and they're neoliberal on the right in economics.

00:42:27.380 They're neoliberal in foreign policy,

00:42:29.400 which means we interfere in sovereign countries

00:42:31.760 and cause murder and mayhem.

00:42:34.000 And they're neoliberal or liberal on social policy

00:42:37.880 to the degree that the vast majority of people,

00:42:41.240 the obvious examples of this are on transgenderism.

00:42:44.740 is a clear and obvious case, that the vast majority of people in the country are utterly

00:42:50.220 averse. And Parliament does not reflect that. The Conservative Party doesn't reflect it.

00:42:57.580 The Conservative Party, for me, is mindless towards the working class, mindless towards 0.98

00:43:05.000 cares not one jot about equality

00:43:07.320 but will make

00:43:09.500 every possible

00:43:10.960 kowtowing

00:43:14.000 to a liberal social agenda

00:43:16.460 which no one agrees with

00:43:18.840 well I say no one

00:43:20.020 it's a minority 0.82

00:43:21.640 that's the big difference

00:43:24.580 and it's taken Brexit

00:43:25.980 I just hope that some people

00:43:28.680 will have woken up to that

00:43:29.820 but it doesn't seem that anybody's woken up to it

00:43:33.200 in fact it just seemed that what's happened

00:43:34.940 is that people are becoming more entrenched

00:43:36.700 and more inflexible.

00:43:38.940 Well, the liberals are,

00:43:40.080 but I think the liberals are becoming more entrenched

00:43:41.920 and more inflexible 1.00

00:43:42.820 because they know their fucking days are numbered. 0.99

00:43:45.020 I mean, I really do think they think that. 0.99

00:43:48.120 If you look at the,

00:43:50.620 not at the specifics of sophology in the UK,

00:43:59.040 but just the generality of it across Europe,

00:44:02.860 The trend has been towards people who want no more immigration,

00:44:08.420 who aren't terribly keen on, you know, the personal politics, identity politics, social issues.

00:44:17.540 Don't want any of that stuff.

00:44:19.680 That's been the trend of the last eight to ten years, and it's getting more and more.

00:44:26.820 Now, it's exemplified by people who we might not always like, such as Uncle Vic in Hungary.

00:44:32.120 and those countries are being bullied by the European Union over this.

00:44:40.280 But I think there's an overwhelming feeling in Europe at the moment,

00:44:45.320 and it's growing and growing,

00:44:47.100 which doesn't mean that they want to leave the EU necessarily,

00:44:50.020 but they want it to be a different beast,

00:44:51.840 and they wish this liberal elite to be lifted from their shoulders.

00:44:57.680 I'm sure they think that.

00:44:59.480 I'm sure they think that.

00:45:00.640 but to my mind

00:45:02.480 if you've got

00:45:03.180 this whole raft

00:45:04.140 of people

00:45:04.640 who are the people

00:45:05.320 who go to university

00:45:06.400 who are the people

00:45:07.260 who go to Oxford

00:45:08.040 and Cambridge

00:45:08.640 you're never going

00:45:10.520 to get rid of them

00:45:11.200 it's very difficult

00:45:12.200 it's very difficult

00:45:13.080 how are you going

00:45:13.600 to do it

00:45:14.000 we're talking about

00:45:14.880 Gransky and the

00:45:15.580 march through the

00:45:16.100 institutions

00:45:16.640 we're talking a bit

00:45:18.060 about Herbert Marcuse

00:45:19.200 it is very

00:45:22.620 very difficult

00:45:23.480 I can tell you

00:45:24.600 how we do it

00:45:24.980 in Russia

00:45:25.300 there are some

00:45:28.660 occasions where

00:45:29.540 Russia has a point 1.00

00:45:30.460 Not many, but the BBC, for example, it's a good example.

00:45:38.140 The BBC has done a brilliant job in the last 20 years of becoming more diverse ethnically.

00:45:49.340 When I joined the BBC, you would go through seven floors of exclusively white people 1.00

00:45:57.700 until you got to the canteen on the eighth floor when it was all black.

00:46:01.800 That's changed, and it's good that it's changed.

00:46:05.020 It's good.

00:46:06.880 Could we not try some sort of legislation to ensure that there's diversity of opinion?

00:46:12.500 Should it not be necessary for our big news and current affairs programs

00:46:17.220 to have a kind of broad sweep of opinion on there?

00:46:21.940 Particularly given that we all pay for them.

00:46:24.120 Given that we all pay for them.

00:46:25.480 You know, that they should be encouraged to have diversity of opinion rather than this monolithic culture, which it has at the moment.

00:46:32.980 I don't see that as a problem.

00:46:34.700 Now, what do you do about universities?

00:46:36.520 Can you do the same thing?

00:46:37.560 I think you probably can.

00:46:39.440 And the universities have always tended to the left, generally.

00:46:48.380 But, as we know from the statistics, they've become more and more left-wing.

00:46:52.580 It's now somewhere in the region 95%, I think, in the U.S. that's Democrat.

00:46:58.880 A few things have fed into that. 0.94

00:47:02.300 One of them is the fact that so many people go to university now to do utterly fucking fatuous degrees, 0.85

00:47:08.040 almost always in social sciences.

00:47:11.280 That's been the big growth area.

00:47:13.880 Wank.

00:47:14.260 gallons of wank

00:47:17.000 which will cost these poor kids

00:47:19.460 40,000 quid

00:47:21.080 to come away from

00:47:23.180 the Queen Mary University

00:47:25.340 or the University of Westminster

00:47:27.260 University of Westminster

00:47:29.320 with a degree in gender

00:47:31.440 wank

00:47:31.820 and think they're going to walk into a top job

00:47:35.440 you know

00:47:37.300 I think it's

00:47:41.300 far harder

00:47:41.780 I mean, it would be more interesting to deal with the teachers as well, because it's another

00:47:48.200 area where, again, there is heading towards close to unanimity of opinion.

00:47:53.620 And I spoke to a lad who, quote him in the book, who voted leave, you know, and he was

00:48:01.200 a teacher at a school in London, and the hatred he got from colleagues, just incomprehensible

00:48:08.720 hatred. 0.99

00:48:09.200 But, you know, how the fuck do you attack that? 0.99

00:48:13.000 How do you stop that? 0.98

00:48:15.280 There was a headmaster of a school in Dulwich who said that if any people in this school said anything similar to what Donald Trump had been saying about immigration, they would be expelled, excluded.

00:48:28.440 I mean, this is mad, you know.

00:48:31.980 And I don't know what you do about that. 0.99

00:48:33.780 I mean, close down the fucking teacher training colleges. 1.00

00:48:36.880 You know, just what the fuck? 1.00

00:48:39.200 Do they learn that? 1.00

00:48:41.100 You know?

00:48:42.460 And I think the growth of some of the free schools

00:48:45.520 is an antidote to that.

00:48:48.040 Well, we've had Catherine Burble sing on the show. 0.57

00:48:50.720 Well, Catherine Burble sing should be... 1.00

00:48:53.240 Our educational policy should be dictated

00:48:56.580 by Catherine Burble sing and Tony Sewell.

00:48:59.460 We've had them both on.

00:49:00.720 Tony is a great mate and a lovely bloke.

00:49:05.440 And he would make a brilliant education secretary.

00:49:07.640 So would Catherine.

00:49:08.620 That's what you need.

00:49:10.220 And just get rid of this flaccid, self-serving and contradictory toss that the kids are taught at the moment.

00:49:20.460 Because this is a great thing about, and it's why liberalism is falling apart, that these identity politics stuff, it's all mutually contradictory.

00:49:31.000 And it falls apart. 1.00

00:49:32.020 You tug at the one little thread of it and it falls apart like a mohead jumper knitted by the village idiot. 1.00

00:49:37.960 which we saw with the protests in Birmingham 1.00

00:49:43.500 about sex education in schools

00:49:47.420 who do we stick up for 0.97

00:49:50.220 is it the gays, is it the Muslims 0.99

00:49:52.960 who comes out on top 0.99

00:49:54.380 and it's interesting because I'm a former teacher

00:49:56.800 I was a teacher for 11 years

00:49:57.880 it's alright Rod

00:50:00.460 but one thing I found very interesting

00:50:02.540 is how identity politics has actually started

00:50:05.220 to infect teacher training

00:50:07.320 so for instance we went to a course

00:50:09.720 and one of them was about how to teach

00:50:11.700 black boys

00:50:12.320 and then you had to 0.99

00:50:16.040 treat them differently

00:50:17.180 you see this is where Tony Sewell

00:50:19.940 would change the world

00:50:22.220 and the thing is I'm sitting there

00:50:24.000 going well this is just basically racism

00:50:25.900 because you're looking at somebody and you're not

00:50:27.920 actually thinking what their capabilities

00:50:29.880 are, how academic they are

00:50:31.320 you're thinking they're black, they're male 0.99

00:50:33.660 therefore we have to treat them differently 0.54

00:50:35.800 That is racism.

00:50:36.660 Two things on that.

00:50:38.080 I mean, you're absolutely right.

00:50:39.100 It's racist.

00:50:40.980 Tony once picked up on it a long time ago.

00:50:43.800 When I first noticed a guy, when there was a kind of Seacole mania.

00:50:51.540 I don't know if you remember it, but it was a time when every building in Britain had to be named Seacole House.

00:50:58.560 Because here was a black woman who would be an aspirational figure for black students. 1.00

00:51:04.140 and Tony said 1.00

00:51:06.260 why should they aspire to be a fucking 1.00

00:51:09.000 nurse 1.00

00:51:09.540 just because she's got black 0.95

00:51:12.920 skin, why shouldn't they 0.98

00:51:15.000 aspire to be Faraday

00:51:16.320 or Shakespeare

00:51:17.540 why do they, why

00:51:19.800 it's

00:51:21.200 all of this stuff is racist

00:51:24.040 it is racist

00:51:25.400 it is

00:51:26.520 letting down

00:51:29.480 you know, a community

00:51:32.200 which could have

00:51:33.540 so much more

00:51:35.620 to aspire to than this

00:51:37.060 and corralled into this perpetual state of

00:51:39.460 victimhood

00:51:40.060 it just

00:51:41.500 it's crippling

00:51:44.860 because what you're saying is that

00:51:47.580 you will never be capable of doing

00:51:49.320 what all the other children are capable of

00:51:51.180 therefore we need to put

00:51:53.560 in special provisions for you

00:51:54.860 and it's also a form of narcissism

00:51:56.860 because it's look what I'm a good person

00:51:58.660 that's right it's virtue signal

00:52:00.280 but we're also doing it with boys

00:52:03.060 We had one training session where we had a teacher training person come in, tell us how boys couldn't be expected to write at a desk for longer than 15 minutes.

00:52:11.780 They needed to have a break.

00:52:13.680 And it's just, yeah.

00:52:15.540 And then, you know, they have to do small targets in order to keep them engaged.

00:52:19.060 And it's bollocks.

00:52:20.140 I have huge problems with my daughter's at a grammar school.

00:52:23.700 She passed her 11 plus.

00:52:25.460 Of course, I mean, she's got my genes.

00:52:27.120 And the identity politics and the propaganda is now in kind of every subject apart from maths and physics.

00:52:41.660 It's in geography, English, it's everywhere.

00:52:43.900 When you study Of Mice and Men by Steinbeck, you are asked, what does this tell us about sexism in 1950s, 1930s, 1940s?

00:52:59.140 You know, nothing about the book.

00:53:01.860 It's all corralled into this monomaniacal hierarchy of victimhoods.

00:53:10.500 And it's terribly debilitating.

00:53:12.380 But as I say, I mean, the good news is it is falling apart.

00:53:16.480 You know, believe me, the transgender stuff, the fury of the lesbian community and the 1.00

00:53:26.620 feminist community, and to an increasing degree, the male gay community, it's all beginning 0.83

00:53:34.640 to fall apart at the edges.

00:53:36.200 Because, of course, it has to.

00:53:37.660 Because you can't build a world like that where it's all about competing victimhoods.

00:53:44.100 It's an absurdity.

00:53:46.140 Why do you think it has been so tremendously successful?

00:53:50.440 Do you think it's because we are naturally wired for empathy,

00:53:54.000 and so when someone claims victimhood, we are naturally drawn to go,

00:53:58.280 oh, well, you feel bad, therefore I should try and take your concerns into account,

00:54:02.700 even if they're not necessarily based in reality in certain instances?

00:54:07.320 Do you think that's it?

00:54:08.200 I think that may be why some people, that's a good explanation of why some well-meaning

00:54:12.580 middle-class people may feel that.

00:54:14.940 But I think that most of it devolves from the notion that capitalism is bad, which it

00:54:25.000 may be, that it's run by white males who are therefore bad, that the Cold War comes

00:54:33.120 into it, political alignment comes into it. 0.94

00:54:35.780 Basically, that we are the white oppressive state and everyone else is de facto subjugated.

00:54:44.300 I mean, I remember back in 1983, 84, beginning to see this.

00:54:50.560 I think that's when it began, late 70s, early 80s, when the National Union of Journalists

00:54:57.500 were advised by the Commission for Racial Equality that henceforth Chinese people should

00:55:03.800 be described as being black

00:55:05.320 I was on the far left at this point

00:55:11.840 and I thought 0.99

00:55:12.420 what the fuck 0.99

00:55:14.280 and in various places 0.99

00:55:17.680 around London and Manchester

00:55:19.340 various people were going 0.99

00:55:20.820 what the fuck 0.98

00:55:21.640 they really weren't happy about that 1.00

00:55:25.500 well the Chinese 1.00

00:55:26.780 I don't see them enjoying that

00:55:28.400 that was a Chinese accent

00:55:29.660 come on

00:55:33.780 You know, I'm a writer.

00:55:36.280 I don't try to perform.

00:55:39.820 But this was an attempt, and it's the root of it all,

00:55:46.040 to say that the Chinese people are objectively black 0.89

00:55:48.740 because they are subjects of an oppressive white state.

00:55:56.260 And everybody, and it's why Peter Tatchell,

00:55:59.480 who I respect as a guy enormously and get on with terribly well,

00:56:03.780 will sometimes say

00:56:06.580 to me 0.98

00:56:07.320 Muslims and gay people ought to try 1.00

00:56:10.560 and make common

00:56:11.420 cause against the oppression

00:56:14.160 which they suffer in society

00:56:15.900 right

00:56:18.600 I wouldn't go up

00:56:20.300 any tall buildings

00:56:21.360 I'd just keep it

00:56:24.260 on the ground floor

00:56:25.560 I like Peter

00:56:27.920 we've had him on the show

00:56:28.780 he's very idealistic

00:56:30.000 which is one of the reasons

00:56:31.980 he's done what he's done

00:56:33.000 and he's very moral

00:56:34.900 and a good guy

00:56:36.500 you know

00:56:37.260 and he was the guy

00:56:38.100 who stood up for

00:56:39.000 the Irish bakers

00:56:41.620 the Northern Irish bakers

00:56:43.140 you know

00:56:43.460 he believes in freedom of speech

00:56:44.680 he is a good man

00:56:45.780 but there is this blind spot

00:56:47.800 you know

00:56:49.600 we are all victims

00:56:50.920 we are all victims

00:56:52.800 you're a victim

00:56:53.680 you know

00:56:54.420 you kind of aren't 0.99

00:56:56.260 fuck you 0.99

00:56:58.440 well you see 1.00

00:57:00.320 that's the thing

00:57:01.040 because my mum's from Venezuela

00:57:02.280 so actually 1.00

00:57:02.920 I'm a fuck 0.99

00:57:03.380 is she really 1.00

00:57:03.580 yeah she fucking is 1.00

00:57:04.540 you can drink now 0.99

00:57:05.440 but as a trigonometry

00:57:06.360 I mention it every episode

00:57:07.540 do you really

00:57:08.160 yeah yeah absolutely

00:57:09.080 is she a Chavez fan 1.00

00:57:10.000 no she fucking hates him 1.00

00:57:11.460 she's a Trump fan 1.00

00:57:12.660 yeah she loves Trump

00:57:13.660 because Trump is the only one

00:57:14.880 who's actually doing something

00:57:15.980 about Venezuela

00:57:16.800 so she's a middle class Venezuelan 0.92

00:57:18.180 yeah absolutely

00:57:18.940 yeah but she despises 1.00

00:57:20.860 you know

00:57:21.400 but it's that thing

00:57:22.320 of what we are all victims

00:57:23.760 we're all victims

00:57:24.740 yeah

00:57:25.340 and

00:57:26.080 the other fascinating thing

00:57:28.620 if you've got time

00:57:29.480 to talk about this

00:57:30.460 yeah yeah

00:57:30.800 the other fascinating thing

00:57:31.960 it's a bit like with charities, that you begin by saying that you're a victim, that these people

00:57:37.840 in society are victims. And you set up charities, you set up legislation. Charities begin to work

00:57:43.380 for legislation. Legislation is enacted to protect those people. But it becomes an industry.

00:57:48.920 And what always happens is that it expands. So that, for example, with disability,

00:57:56.200 at one point, there is absolutely no question that disabled people in this country had a really,

00:58:00.460 really bad run of it, probably

00:58:02.460 still do in many cases. They do actually

00:58:04.580 yeah, because my mum's the same. But

00:58:06.020 fuck your mum for a minute 1.00

00:58:08.460 This is my 1.00

00:58:10.660 favourite moment of three months

00:58:12.060 A guest finally

00:58:14.600 says what I've been meaning to say for a very long

00:58:16.560 time

00:58:16.900 But what happens is 0.89

00:58:21.560 and it's the same with gay 0.87

00:58:24.440 stuff as well, it's no

00:58:26.460 longer enough to say that this is a persecuted minority

00:58:28.560 you have to say

00:58:30.420 Actually, it's not a minority.

00:58:31.980 Did you know that one in three people are disabled?

00:58:34.880 Well, no, they're not.

00:58:36.520 But that's what the disability lobby will tell you.

00:58:40.040 And there are now invisible disabilities.

00:58:43.680 And people who are depressed will get free parking.

00:58:47.780 Did you know that?

00:58:48.920 No.

00:58:49.560 Oh, yes.

00:58:51.200 Free parking for people who are depressed. 0.99

00:58:53.620 We're all fucking depressed, are we not? 0.99

00:58:56.080 But it's the same as the gay lobby as well, which is undoubted horrible discrimination. 0.99

00:59:07.180 But it's not enough.

00:59:08.340 Well, no, no, we don't just want to that.

00:59:11.460 It's one in three people are gay or one in four people.

00:59:14.540 No, they're not.

00:59:16.380 You know, you don't have to do that.

00:59:18.600 But that's what we've done with all of this stuff.

00:59:20.800 It expands exponentially until we are all victims.

00:59:25.460 We could all be disabled if we want to be.

00:59:27.900 I could register as disabled now.

00:59:30.440 You know?

00:59:31.260 My eyesight's not brilliant.

00:59:34.020 I'm from Middlesbrough. 1.00

00:59:37.220 I'm a fat cunt. 1.00

00:59:39.720 We could all register now. 1.00

00:59:42.740 And that's what we've done.

00:59:44.160 We're trying to make everyone victims.

00:59:46.200 It's bizarre.

00:59:47.880 It is bizarre.

00:59:49.600 Because I was going to move on to talking about...

00:59:52.040 I was just going to say, I'm curious still to prod you more on why you think that idea of victimhood has been so successful, because that is a huge transformation.

01:00:06.140 Because we like being victims.

01:00:07.720 But here's the thing, right?

01:00:09.040 Is 40 or 50 years ago, we had an aspirational culture.

01:00:13.420 You were taught to be strong, particularly if you were a man.

01:00:16.180 You were taught to be strong.

01:00:17.560 You were taught to be resilient.

01:00:18.740 and you were taught that your job as a human being

01:00:21.440 is to face the challenges that life throws at you.

01:00:24.400 The movies that we would watch,

01:00:25.800 the Sylvester Stallone in Rocky,

01:00:27.720 saying life hits harder than anything you ever imagined,

01:00:31.020 but it's about keeping going.

01:00:32.560 We were being conned by a culture.

01:00:34.420 We were being conned back then

01:00:35.880 by a paternalistic, patriarchal, socialistic culture.

01:00:41.160 We were.

01:00:41.860 That's what they will tell you.

01:00:43.160 But I think there's also something appealing

01:00:44.980 in that we are all victims.

01:00:47.000 I think everybody likes it.

01:00:48.920 There's power.

01:00:49.680 There's power in it.

01:00:51.020 And also cachet.

01:00:52.840 Yeah.

01:00:53.560 You know, my daughter's school, you know,

01:00:56.500 as soon as you start talking about transgenderism or pansexuality

01:00:59.920 or greysexuality and all the other sexualities there,

01:01:03.500 they're all signing up for them.

01:01:05.940 I'm different.

01:01:07.180 I'm like that.

01:01:08.580 Whereas I, at school, when I was trying to be different,

01:01:10.840 would strip naked and stand like Jesus Christ in front of people 0.84

01:01:14.280 and scream that they were going to be sent to hell. 0.89

01:01:16.320 which I thought actually took a bit of doing

01:01:19.280 you know just identifying

01:01:21.560 as something

01:01:22.440 Suddenly your career makes a lot of sense

01:01:24.560 But isn't it also

01:01:28.700 an easy get out

01:01:30.140 in saying I'm not responsible for my action

01:01:32.760 It's a condition syndrome as well

01:01:34.940 Everything is a condition

01:01:36.360 ADHD and

01:01:38.060 the two obvious ones are ADHD and dyslexia

01:01:41.000 you know

01:01:42.580 it's very very difficult

01:01:45.100 to tell the difference

01:01:46.820 scientifically between someone

01:01:49.480 who's dyslexic and someone

01:01:51.640 middle class mum and dad

01:01:53.780 who's sick

01:01:55.760 and their children are

01:01:57.600 sick

01:01:58.140 and similarly for the ADHD 1.00

01:02:01.660 no you're a little cunt 1.00

01:02:03.620 basically 1.00

01:02:04.100 Francis is that

01:02:07.820 not the case with you?

01:02:08.620 Yeah absolutely

01:02:09.700 Is there more wine or are we finished?

01:02:13.160 Right if you were wondering

01:02:14.580 why there's so much swearing

01:02:15.520 in this episode

01:02:16.100 we unlike with other guests

01:02:17.560 who we get a cup of tea

01:02:18.700 or a coffee

01:02:19.300 we got right a glass of wine

01:02:20.620 hence the ensuing chaos

01:02:22.300 oh I'm sorry

01:02:22.820 I didn't know

01:02:23.420 there was no swearing

01:02:24.360 no

01:02:24.820 you can swear away

01:02:26.700 I'm just joking

01:02:27.260 especially about your mum

01:02:28.120 I'm so sorry

01:02:28.700 do you know what

01:02:30.600 my mum is actually

01:02:31.320 a massive fan of yours

01:02:32.380 I will put that clip

01:02:33.620 and send it to her

01:02:35.320 she'd love that

01:02:36.900 we are out of time man

01:02:39.140 are we out of time

01:02:39.800 we are out of time

01:02:40.480 I wanted to get him

01:02:41.980 to slam Corbyn 1.00

01:02:42.800 I fucking hate him 1.00

01:02:43.580 anyway 1.00

01:02:43.880 I'm Jewish, I'm up for that

01:02:46.260 It's not difficult is it

01:02:48.240 I'm half Venezuelan

01:02:50.500 he loves Matherwood

01:02:51.600 come on, just slam him for me 1.00

01:02:53.040 He was honest and decent

01:02:56.300 on Brexit for a while

01:02:57.560 against his better interests

01:03:00.480 he was principled 1.00

01:03:02.080 he's thick as shit 0.99

01:03:04.300 I mean we know this 1.00

01:03:05.420 Yeah, sure

01:03:08.000 but also

01:03:10.760 I mean

01:03:11.280 there is no imagination

01:03:14.420 or

01:03:15.020 I don't think he's read properly

01:03:18.220 I don't think he reads things

01:03:19.900 and you know

01:03:23.780 it's an indulgence

01:03:25.700 his existence in the Labour Party

01:03:28.260 was an indulgence

01:03:29.200 much as I was indulgent in

01:03:31.440 1976 when I joined the Socialist Workers Party

01:03:34.600 I knew at 16

01:03:36.200 that we weren't going to hand out weapons

01:03:38.360 at ICI and take over the country

01:03:40.480 You know, it was a bit of fun.

01:03:45.560 All that lot are stuck in that pre-adolescent mindset.

01:03:53.460 It is astonishing.

01:03:56.020 Simon Evans has this great joke in his new show where he talks about how,

01:03:59.840 he talks about all the different politicians and makes fun of both sides.

01:04:03.100 And then he goes with Jeremy Corbyn, of course,

01:04:04.600 he started in student politics where he remains to this day.

01:04:07.940 Well, exactly.

01:04:08.640 That's exactly it. 0.99

01:04:09.420 I mean, it's just, and it's the fucking affluent who fall for it. 0.98

01:04:17.660 That being said, I know quite a lot of people in London, 0.98

01:04:20.460 and I've tried to work this out psychologically,

01:04:22.800 who vote for Jeremy Corbyn and then pray he doesn't get in.

01:04:28.260 You know, that is kind of the lefty virtue signaling writ large, isn't it?

01:04:35.320 Well, on that happy note, Rod, we've got just one more question for you, which is what is the one thing that no one's talking about that we ought to be talking about?

01:04:44.880 Animal rights.

01:04:47.180 Yeah, I'm sorry.

01:04:49.800 I'm so sorry.

01:04:50.680 I'm really, really dull on animal rights.

01:04:54.100 They're going to have to cut this.

01:04:56.860 I think animal rights is one of the big issues.

01:05:00.140 There's two things.

01:05:01.020 There's rights for working class people who I don't class in the same group as animals. 0.93

01:05:05.320 I thought about making that joke, but I was like, no, no, I better not.

01:05:11.840 But you did it.

01:05:12.460 I have no reserves.

01:05:15.900 So it's two things.

01:05:16.880 I think we need identity politics for the working class, 1.00

01:05:18.980 and I also think we need to clamp down on the abuse of animals raised for food.

01:05:26.900 And if anyone ever suggests bringing back a fox hunting bill, 0.99

01:05:29.860 they should actually be shot through the head with a kind of bolt gun or a rail gun. 0.99

01:05:38.160 If you see the new rail guns. 1.00

01:05:41.920 So those two things.

01:05:43.180 Those are the two things.

01:05:44.520 So you think we need identity politics for the working class 1.00

01:05:47.780 rather than just moving away from identity politics in general?

01:05:50.660 I was being a bit flippant.

01:05:51.580 But by and large, that's the one identity which is never identity.

01:05:55.280 No, it isn't.

01:05:55.900 But my point is I think we need to remove identity politics as a thing.

01:05:59.860 Sure. Of course you do. Of course you do. You do it on economics.

01:06:03.480 Yeah. I just think one concern for me with identity politics is it pushes people who are not represented by it into their own identity.

01:06:11.200 And then you suddenly get, you know, 10 million straight white men going, oh, yeah, well, we are discriminated against because we're straight white men.

01:06:18.400 That's not going to end very well.

01:06:19.920 No, but that will happen.

01:06:21.240 Well, that's my point.

01:06:21.960 That will happen.

01:06:22.800 Which is why I don't think we need that.

01:06:24.160 Sure, sure. I mean, it's actually a quote from Morris, Morris Glassman.

01:06:28.400 he says

01:06:30.120 the Labour Party

01:06:31.240 has all this

01:06:31.760 identity politics

01:06:32.720 but none of it

01:06:33.540 about the people

01:06:34.180 it was set up

01:06:34.920 to represent

01:06:35.480 and that's

01:06:36.620 roughly where I'm from

01:06:38.060 which is why

01:06:39.000 you should vote

01:06:39.680 for the Social Democrats

01:06:41.060 that camera's

01:06:43.580 not on me

01:06:44.220 is it?

01:06:45.340 because it's probably

01:06:45.900 another one

01:06:46.100 we switched it off

01:06:46.860 a long time

01:06:47.320 can I have a drink now?

01:06:49.300 yes

01:06:49.520 we're going to have

01:06:50.360 you a drink

01:06:50.820 we're keeping all of this in

01:06:52.360 Rod thanks so much

01:06:54.480 for coming on

01:06:55.080 check out Rod's columns

01:06:56.560 as you can see

01:06:57.200 He's an edgy and very funny man with some very good ideas.

01:07:01.700 As always, follow us, because you're not on social media.

01:07:04.700 I know this for a fact, right?

01:07:06.220 Facebook?

01:07:07.000 Yeah, follow Rod on Facebook.

01:07:09.360 He's pretty active on there.

01:07:10.780 Should I be on Twitter?

01:07:12.000 Yeah.

01:07:12.380 Yeah.

01:07:13.000 You'd get cancelled very quickly, which would be great for your career.

01:07:15.900 Okay.

01:07:16.300 Do you know what being cancelled is?

01:07:17.920 Kicked off because I'm...

01:07:19.120 No, no.

01:07:19.560 Being cancelled is like where people start calling for you to be removed from your newspaper,

01:07:24.520 not being allowed

01:07:25.720 to write anymore

01:07:27.020 well they do that already

01:07:28.120 yeah

01:07:28.460 but on Twitter

01:07:29.320 that would be a lot better

01:07:30.580 so you should definitely

01:07:31.300 get on it

01:07:31.820 okay thank you

01:07:32.600 yeah

01:07:32.840 so when Rod gets on Twitter

01:07:34.700 follow him on Twitter

01:07:35.700 as always

01:07:36.840 follow us

01:07:37.400 at TriggerPod

01:07:38.060 on all the social media

01:07:38.940 we're going to do

01:07:40.080 a very quick outro

01:07:40.800 and we will see you

01:07:41.740 in a week from now

01:07:42.420 absolutely

01:07:43.140 see you soon guys

01:07:54.520 Thank you.

01:08:24.520 Thank you.

01:08:54.520 Thank you.

01:09:24.520 Thank you.

01:09:54.520 Thank you.

01:10:24.520 Thank you.

01:10:54.520 Thank you.

01:11:24.520 Thank you.

01:11:54.520 You

TRIGGERnometry - October 06, 2019

Rod Liddle Unfiltered： Political Correctness, Brexit & the Liberal Elite

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