TRIGGERnometry - October 06, 2019


Rod Liddle Unfiltered: Political Correctness, Brexit & the Liberal Elite


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 11 minutes

Words per Minute

143.17088

Word Count

10,300

Sentence Count

678


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
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00:00:14.540 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.
00:00:22.280 I'm Francis Foster.
00:00:23.500 I'm Constantine Kissin.
00:00:24.640 And this is a show for you.
00:00:26.220 If you're bored with people arguing on the internet
00:00:28.440 over subjects they know nothing about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts,
00:00:34.220 we ask the experts. Our fantastic guest this week is a journalist and the author of The Great Betrayal,
00:00:40.040 The True Story of Brexit. Rod Lill, welcome to Trigonometry. Thanks so much for asking me. Thank
00:00:44.760 you. It's great to have you. Before I go on, this is the book. Make sure you get it. This is what
00:00:48.560 we'll be talking about. But before we get into it, for anyone who doesn't know who you are,
00:00:53.320 which is a small number of people these days, just tell everybody who are you,
00:00:57.420 How are you where you are?
00:00:58.540 What has been your journey through life?
00:01:00.140 Because we always find that quite interesting.
00:01:01.720 All right.
00:01:02.100 OK, sure.
00:01:02.860 Well, I'm a media whore and I'm a journalist, a hack, a columnist for the Sunday Times,
00:01:10.460 a spectator in the sun.
00:01:12.460 I once was a speechwriter for the BBC.
00:01:15.380 After that, I worked for the speechwriter for the BBC.
00:01:19.120 There's a Freudian.
00:01:19.980 Yeah, I was going to say.
00:01:20.520 Speechwriter for the Labour Party.
00:01:21.880 After that, I worked for the BBC and found the illusion between the two very easy indeed, as you can imagine.
00:01:31.120 My point has always been to say what I think people believe but are too scared to say for reasons of either direct political correctness or indirect political correctness.
00:01:45.300 There's a slight difference between the two.
00:01:46.780 And also to make people laugh. I mean, most of my job is to amuse.
00:01:52.740 For that, I usually get called a racist and a homophobe because I have made jokes about black people before and indeed gay people.
00:02:01.120 But I like to think of myself in a very real sense as an equal opportunities cunt, as someone who will offend everybody,
00:02:09.380 Including, you know, the people I come from up in the northeast of England and people who live in Brighton, especially maybe people who live in Brighton and French people.
00:02:20.880 Everybody, they are all in there.
00:02:23.060 I don't think I think everybody has the right to have the piss taken out of them, including me.
00:02:29.020 I think that's a beautiful thing about the French in that people say you can't take the piss out of black people, gay people.
00:02:33.680 But French, it's fine, they deserve it.
00:02:36.400 Yeah, except it changes.
00:02:37.740 You know, it used to be like that about the Welsh.
00:02:39.380 Oh, I tried that a couple of years ago.
00:02:43.060 Oh, really?
00:02:43.600 Did it turn nasty?
00:02:44.460 You've got to stop that, boy-o.
00:02:47.820 They actually called the fucking police.
00:02:51.480 You know, it was one of the least defensive things I've ever said in my life.
00:02:56.700 I happened to mention that there was a paucity of vowels in the Welsh language,
00:03:02.280 which isn't a terribly original observation, nor a terribly funny one.
00:03:07.620 and they went do lally
00:03:09.880 and
00:03:11.080 the Welsh Language
00:03:14.060 Society said
00:03:15.660 it's important we must stick to
00:03:18.040 freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is
00:03:20.100 the most important thing
00:03:21.580 but
00:03:23.040 so it's this fucking but
00:03:26.140 we must stop people
00:03:28.040 generating hate
00:03:30.000 about our language. Generating
00:03:32.120 hate about your fucking
00:03:33.740 nog in the nog language
00:03:35.340 You know, you carry on with it, Thomas, and your tank engine.
00:03:40.100 Now, that's Isle of Man, isn't it?
00:03:42.200 Well, one Isle of Man viewer is now switched up.
00:03:44.820 Sorry about that.
00:03:45.860 But one bloke, he actually reported to the police and said,
00:03:52.140 can we investigate this to see if this is a race hater crime,
00:03:56.380 suggesting that there are not many vowels in the Welsh language.
00:03:59.960 And the thing which struck me was that he was actually the police commissioner for North Wales.
00:04:06.680 Oh, wow.
00:04:07.640 And he referred it.
00:04:09.700 And presumably, you know, he should have been investigated for wasting police time.
00:04:15.420 So be careful.
00:04:18.280 Within a year or two, the French.
00:04:22.120 You'll knock it away with the French.
00:04:23.620 We'll be left with having to pick on tiny minority countries, you know.
00:04:29.960 Cape Verde or something.
00:04:31.200 Yeah.
00:04:32.440 Cabo Verde.
00:04:33.520 Yeah, Cabo Verde.
00:04:35.540 Yeah.
00:04:36.180 You mispronounced the name and that's it.
00:04:37.720 No, no, no.
00:04:38.520 That's it for me.
00:04:39.220 You're off to jail.
00:04:40.240 I quite like that you clarified that it was one specific Welshman
00:04:43.060 because initially you said they called it
00:04:44.600 and I just had this image in my head of like the whole of Wales.
00:04:46.720 No, but of course that's the point.
00:04:49.280 Yeah.
00:04:49.420 And of course that's the point.
00:04:50.820 Yeah, yeah.
00:04:51.240 Because I got loads of letters in from people saying,
00:04:54.380 from people in Carmarthen and Cardiff and Rill saying,
00:04:58.460 God, I'm so sorry.
00:04:59.960 When did we lose our sense of humor?
00:05:05.120 So no, of course not.
00:05:06.920 It's that liberal elite with their vested interests
00:05:10.640 who desperately desire a sense of victimhood.
00:05:16.540 And I suppose they are victims because they're sick as shit.
00:05:20.520 It's the important thing, I think.
00:05:23.100 Well, we've started off with what we were going to talk about later.
00:05:26.020 Why don't we just carry on down this path and get to Brexit later?
00:05:29.960 How about that, Francis?
00:05:30.800 Absolutely.
00:05:31.420 So you say you're an equal opportunities cunt.
00:05:35.480 And I read your articles in The Times, and I think they're incredibly funny.
00:05:40.480 Has there ever been a point where you've made a joke that actually you look back on and you think,
00:05:44.840 I shouldn't have said that.
00:05:46.260 That was too far over the line.
00:05:49.140 No, but there's been an occasion every week without fail where I look at something I've written
00:05:56.340 and think, oh, in the current climate, I shouldn't have written that.
00:06:04.680 I wonder if the subs will take it out or the editor will take it out.
00:06:10.700 And then I think, no, you've got to do that.
00:06:15.840 You cannot be constrained by this stuff.
00:06:21.060 Otherwise, it makes you boring and partisan.
00:06:25.060 And I try not to be partisan in my offensiveness.
00:06:29.280 It's sprayed around liberally like Jimmy Savile would have sprayed around his seed.
00:06:37.060 I could conjure up that image for you.
00:06:42.000 Which is a pleasant image.
00:06:44.520 I mean, you're right.
00:06:45.860 What happens actually is my wife reads my copy before I send it in with a glass of wine.
00:06:53.400 And she reads through it.
00:06:54.320 And she's for a quiet life.
00:06:58.420 And she says, Rod, you can't say this.
00:07:01.080 And I said, why can't I?
00:07:02.140 It's true.
00:07:02.740 You know it's true.
00:07:04.240 And it's funny.
00:07:07.140 They'll cut it out.
00:07:08.240 And if they don't cut it out, the police will get involved.
00:07:11.200 And she's invariably right.
00:07:13.020 But you cannot stop doing that.
00:07:14.780 And yet it is getting more and more the case that you self-police.
00:07:24.400 It gets less funny.
00:07:30.460 It's more and more the case every week that goes by.
00:07:34.080 I thought we were at something.
00:07:35.420 I mentioned this on a different program before now.
00:07:37.600 I thought that maybe last year we were at something called Peak Wank.
00:07:41.140 nah
00:07:44.480 it's still
00:07:45.680 it's getting worse
00:07:46.560 it's getting worse
00:07:47.640 and do you think
00:07:49.340 there's going to be
00:07:49.780 a backlash
00:07:50.100 because I talk
00:07:50.860 a lot with comedians
00:07:51.600 we both do
00:07:52.260 and when you look
00:07:53.940 at something like
00:07:54.640 Dave Chappelle
00:07:55.300 has released
00:07:56.000 this new special
00:07:56.940 Chappelle
00:07:58.060 isn't it Chappelle
00:08:00.200 no I think
00:08:02.080 well it's Chappelle
00:08:02.780 I heard him
00:08:04.200 refer to himself
00:08:05.200 as Chappelle
00:08:05.840 but
00:08:06.060 yeah
00:08:07.760 yeah
00:08:08.720 of course there is
00:08:09.560 of course
00:08:09.960 there's that
00:08:11.040 And on the other side is Stuart Lee, who, you know, I can remember Stuart Lee ruffling a few feathers by saying that, what's he called?
00:08:21.740 That guy from the driving program that people used to watch.
00:08:26.240 Jeremy Clarkson.
00:08:26.840 Jeremy Clarkson, May.
00:08:28.280 And Peter Hammond.
00:08:29.560 Hammond, Hammond.
00:08:31.080 Yeah, Richard Hammond.
00:08:31.880 Richard Hammond.
00:08:33.160 Peter Hammond.
00:08:34.160 Peter, who's that?
00:08:35.160 Albert Hammond.
00:08:36.040 Yeah.
00:08:36.380 that he wished he'd died or his children were blind or something.
00:08:43.020 Which is good comedy, which is good comedy.
00:08:46.660 And comedy coming from the left and driven from the left,
00:08:50.320 from the liberal left, I wouldn't call it the proper left.
00:08:53.220 I mean, he's another fucking public school boy.
00:08:55.620 When it comes down to it, brilliant though he is.
00:08:59.880 I think you guys are at the forefront of it.
00:09:02.120 I mean, Constantine, you're the one who has to sign a five-page document
00:09:07.220 when you go on stage at a university because there are so many things
00:09:11.300 which now are not considered to be funny.
00:09:14.180 And if I may say so, you may get away with slightly more than I
00:09:18.060 because you come from what is called a BM, BME?
00:09:23.380 Yeah, I don't self-identify as BME, though.
00:09:25.600 Yeah, but you are, mate.
00:09:28.100 I identify you as one of them.
00:09:29.960 Well, maybe I should do this because that would definitely get me a lot further in my career.
00:09:34.460 It would get you a lot further.
00:09:36.660 But also, but of course, counting against you is, of course, you're Jewish.
00:09:41.380 Yeah.
00:09:42.860 And I don't say that lightly either.
00:09:46.340 And so, no, you guys are more at the front of it than I am.
00:09:49.220 I mean.
00:09:50.480 You know, in France's question, this is, I think, what he's getting at in terms of the backlash.
00:09:54.100 Like, I did a show about that contract this year at Edinburgh, and it did very, very well.
00:09:59.960 With the public and with a lot of reviews. I obviously got a lot of, you know, The Guardian and all these people slammed it, but I got a lot of...
00:10:06.700 That twat, Brian. Brian, see him. One star.
00:10:13.000 I wish he'd given me a one star. What he did is actually he went to see all the non-woke comedians, and instead of giving us a review,
00:10:19.880 he did a whole write-up in which essentially he wouldn't actually give any of us a review, he just made a few comments about everybody.
00:10:26.160 He's a man who knows nothing about comedy.
00:10:28.780 He's a theater critic.
00:10:29.660 He does not have a single humorous vein in his body.
00:10:34.880 It's like Margaret Thatcher being a comedy critic.
00:10:38.520 Sorry, go on.
00:10:40.240 But my point is that those of us, me, Leo, Jeff Norcock, Andrew Doyle,
00:10:45.240 who you might know who's the creator of Titania McGrath,
00:10:47.600 we all did pretty well, right?
00:10:49.400 So when Francis is asking about the backlash,
00:10:51.880 do you sense that maybe the peak wank point is coming?
00:10:56.020 Well, no, I mean, in a sense, the reason I don't think there's a backlash,
00:11:00.060 I think the people are with us.
00:11:01.920 I think these people who try to stop us and what we say have power without hegemony.
00:11:09.980 Their views are not shared by the majority of people in the country remotely.
00:11:17.060 But they are shared by the BBC commissioning team and they are shared by the Liberal Elite.
00:11:23.720 And the people who dictate, as the words you use, the current climate.
00:11:28.060 Yes.
00:11:28.640 Yeah.
00:11:29.620 Do you know, I heard a story only yesterday on the BBC.
00:11:37.160 This is kind of where they're coming from.
00:11:38.560 This is Radio 5 Live.
00:11:40.420 And it was about some lesbians having a night out, a nice night out.
00:11:45.520 I think it was in Leeds.
00:11:46.640 and a vicious hate crime
00:11:50.060 had been committed
00:11:50.720 which the police
00:11:52.440 were reluctant to follow up
00:11:54.740 and Radio 5 Live
00:11:57.020 got themselves very worked up on it.
00:11:58.820 You found out what exactly had happened
00:12:00.700 and some drunk bloke
00:12:03.180 shouted,
00:12:04.600 hello, is this a fat homosexual contingent then?
00:12:08.920 That was it.
00:12:10.200 It's not a hate crime.
00:12:12.600 And I think
00:12:13.160 when that is broadcast
00:12:14.640 with this sense of outrage
00:12:16.580 It's a horrible thing to say.
00:12:18.400 Well, it's not horrible.
00:12:19.520 It's nasty.
00:12:21.000 It's pig ignorant.
00:12:22.840 But it's not, you know, get in the cattle vans, is it?
00:12:27.120 You know, when that is broadcast as being something about which we should be viscerally outraged,
00:12:36.200 I think the public listen to that and think, what?
00:12:40.740 I don't think they are anywhere near where the BBC is on this issue.
00:12:45.440 You know, I just don't think they, I think, and this is where it comes into Brexit, where Brexit comes into the picture, which is that there is such a disconnect between this liberal elite and the country, between parliament and the country, but also between the judiciary, the BBC, the civil service, and what we consider the rest of the country.
00:13:13.340 There's just no shared common view of the world.
00:13:17.240 They're at odds with each other.
00:13:19.620 I think they'd go along to your gigs and laugh.
00:13:22.340 I think, like, know that they laugh at the stuff I write,
00:13:27.600 apart from the man yesterday in Canterbury Station.
00:13:31.140 Oh, I enjoyed reading your Facebook update about that.
00:13:33.640 I sent it to France as we both laughed.
00:13:35.520 That's absolutely true.
00:13:37.100 Sometimes.
00:13:37.860 Did you just tell everybody what happened?
00:13:39.100 Well, I go to London sometimes, as infrequently as possible,
00:13:44.040 and people come up and say, I really love your stuff.
00:13:46.640 Thank you.
00:13:47.100 Please keep writing it.
00:13:48.740 And that'll be maybe four out of five.
00:13:50.880 But one person will always walk by and go, cunt.
00:13:54.220 And that's fine.
00:13:58.020 Yesterday, at the station, I was buying a ticket,
00:14:02.040 and a youngish bloke walked by, and he just turned to me and went,
00:14:04.800 racist, in that ovine way that they have.
00:14:08.360 but so intent was he
00:14:12.780 in delivering this judgment
00:14:14.520 he failed to notice a large door
00:14:16.840 in front of him and smashed
00:14:18.820 into it, smashed his face
00:14:20.700 into it and smashed his arm on the handle
00:14:22.800 and I just heard him go
00:14:23.560 I just stood there
00:14:26.440 if it had been
00:14:28.620 appropriate I would have masturbated
00:14:30.400 would that have been peak wank?
00:14:33.780 that would have been peak wank
00:14:36.640 I enjoyed reading that
00:14:39.040 because the instant karma moments
00:14:40.900 they are enjoyable
00:14:41.720 it happens quite a bit
00:14:44.380 two other occasions in London
00:14:46.760 both in London
00:14:47.780 one was when I was getting on a tube
00:14:51.800 at Stratford
00:14:52.620 and it was quite crowded
00:14:54.500 the tube was about to go, doors were about to shut
00:14:56.920 and there was this black lady
00:14:59.000 with two carrier bags
00:15:00.620 and the doors were about to shut
00:15:03.160 I held the doors open for her
00:15:04.920 took one of the bags
00:15:06.040 and helped her
00:15:06.680 onto the train
00:15:07.580 and a bloke
00:15:08.920 sitting down
00:15:09.860 nearby said
00:15:10.580 I wouldn't have
00:15:11.960 expected you
00:15:12.540 to do that
00:15:13.180 it's just
00:15:18.260 utterly bizarre
00:15:19.500 and there was
00:15:20.120 one other
00:15:20.520 I was walking
00:15:21.420 with the
00:15:22.240 I was having
00:15:23.940 lunch with
00:15:24.420 Ineek
00:15:24.860 Bunglawala
00:15:25.540 who was
00:15:26.640 at the time
00:15:28.080 the number
00:15:29.400 two or three
00:15:30.020 in the Muslim
00:15:30.500 Council of Britain
00:15:31.260 we were having
00:15:32.260 a lunch
00:15:33.400 to talk about
00:15:34.160 you know
00:15:34.820 Islam and stuff and
00:15:36.120 I've known him for years
00:15:38.280 and we were crossing a busy road
00:15:40.520 in I think
00:15:42.460 I think it was Hoban area
00:15:44.740 crossing a very busy road
00:15:46.360 and a woman ran
00:15:48.940 through the traffic
00:15:50.680 from one of the
00:15:52.820 payments and ran up to him
00:15:54.580 and tugged on him in his sleeve and said
00:15:56.100 you know who that is don't you
00:15:58.720 So there is this minority which, you know, hangs on its every word.
00:16:11.300 You know, the Owen Jones, the people with the IQ of Owen.
00:16:16.280 But I think the vast majority of the public just thinks this is an annoying diversion from what we should be talking about.
00:16:26.200 At the last election, a bit of polling has been done in the States.
00:16:32.940 Political correctness was a really, really big reason why Donald Trump won.
00:16:40.780 So congratulations, USA.
00:16:43.780 Well done.
00:16:45.080 You've got Donald.
00:16:47.920 And, you know, so when you talk about a backlash, I think people are averse to it.
00:16:53.640 I don't think they, whether it's a background, I think they've always been averse to it.
00:16:58.300 They're sick of it.
00:17:01.220 How that expresses itself in the end politically is a more difficult thing to talk about.
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00:19:30.640 without any of the drama well let's talk about it because it's the brexit conversation yeah yeah
00:19:38.680 well it is a brexit conversation and i i remember reading one of your articles and you were talking
00:19:44.680 about how it was the morning when the results came through leave vote one and i think it was
00:19:51.400 you who turned to your wife or your wife turned to you and said they're not gonna let this go
00:19:55.820 through are they? Yeah and I was
00:19:57.480 it was Lissy who'd been
00:19:59.040 up all night
00:20:00.560 because she's a political junkie
00:20:03.880 and loves elections
00:20:05.780 and so that was the first
00:20:07.780 night that I was roused from my sleep at 5
00:20:09.820 in the morning
00:20:10.340 get up Rod, get up Rod
00:20:13.340 we've done it and I was
00:20:15.320 done what?
00:20:18.620 3 months later
00:20:19.900 3 months later I was
00:20:21.680 lying in bed 5 o'clock in the morning
00:20:23.740 Get up Rod, get up Rod. He's done it. He's done it. Donald. Fuck me. Anyway, you're right.
00:20:35.560 I went downstairs, saw the BBC studios where they were clearly sobbing. And I can't remember
00:20:46.740 who said it first, but I said they'll never let it happen. And I put that up on Facebook.
00:20:50.600 they just won't let it happen. The liberals hate being gainsaid on anything. So it's not
00:20:57.720 just Brexit. I mean, if you try to get someone who doesn't have liberal views into a position
00:21:02.720 of power, or even a minuscule position of power, such as we saw with Toby Young and
00:21:09.780 Roger Scruton recently.
00:21:11.820 They'll stop that.
00:21:19.860 It's something I call six degrees of Shami Chakrabarty.
00:21:24.440 It's a game you can play.
00:21:28.720 That all the quangos and institutions, the great and the good institutions, the BBC,
00:21:34.240 the third sector and so on
00:21:39.420 have this very small
00:21:41.040 coterie of people working for them
00:21:43.220 who are all appointed
00:21:44.140 I mean they don't have to go up and turn up for a fucking interview
00:21:47.160 you know, they're appointed
00:21:49.080 We've invited a lot of them and none of them
00:21:51.240 will come on
00:21:52.340 I think Shami at one point
00:21:55.280 was on about seven
00:21:56.280 and you can play Six Degrees with Shami Jakobati
00:21:59.380 just by going through the various crangles
00:22:01.280 and you can always link them up
00:22:02.820 you know, like that, like the Kevin Bacon thing.
00:22:06.680 And Yasmin Halabaya-Brown, for example,
00:22:09.000 who is a visiting professor at three universities
00:22:12.220 and is on various boards and so on.
00:22:18.600 Those are the people who control our cultural life.
00:22:25.180 And they will brook no argument.
00:22:27.740 you know if you are not of their bien pensant opinion you will not get anywhere
00:22:34.400 I do not know a single socially conservative journalist or right-wing journalist you know
00:22:42.680 down the line conservative which I'm not I do not know a single one who has been offered a
00:22:50.220 visiting professorship who has been asked to be on the board of the National Film Theatre
00:22:56.680 or the Migration Advisory Committee.
00:23:01.660 I could do that job.
00:23:03.560 I could stop them.
00:23:07.960 It just doesn't happen.
00:23:09.500 Paul Dacre, probably the most successful editor
00:23:13.600 that this country's seen for decades.
00:23:17.000 No one ever has.
00:23:18.340 Fraser Nelson, who's raised the spectators' figures
00:23:22.640 to 85,000.
00:23:25.040 Just incredible.
00:23:26.420 Brilliant journalist.
00:23:27.680 Never asked.
00:23:28.960 None of these people are ever asked.
00:23:31.020 Owen Jones, who is shit as a journalist, you know, a seriously awful journalist.
00:23:37.640 There are some good liberal left journalists.
00:23:39.700 He's not one of them.
00:23:41.060 And nor is Yasmin.
00:23:42.700 I'll tell you a funny story about Yasmin in a second.
00:23:44.820 Well, yeah, no, please do.
00:23:48.100 Visiting professor or honorary degrees.
00:23:50.220 It's just that is how our cultural life is controlled.
00:23:55.020 You know?
00:23:55.900 And I don't think people like it.
00:23:57.460 I don't think people like it.
00:23:58.780 I don't think people like it either,
00:24:00.180 and I think there's a real resentment to it.
00:24:02.720 And the problem is, for me,
00:24:04.820 is that a lot of these people live in their bubble,
00:24:07.480 where they interact with each other.
00:24:09.640 And all they have is their opinion
00:24:11.480 getting reflected back to them.
00:24:13.020 So when something like Trump or Brexit happens,
00:24:15.180 they're in complete shock.
00:24:16.180 Oh, no, you're absolutely right.
00:24:17.960 And that's the thing from the book.
00:24:20.960 Maybe the only time I'll mention the book, to be honest.
00:24:23.040 But I think it's the most salient of the chapters, which is an awful lot of work was done after Brexit by the horrified, horrified liberal elite saying, who are these ghastly fucking people who voted to leave?
00:24:36.160 And so there was demographies and everyone sort of came up with the same thing, which was that they were poorer, less well educated, which isn't true, nor is it totally true about the poorer stuff.
00:24:47.220 They tend to be northern away from cities, which is true, and so on and so on.
00:24:52.060 And yet, when you actually look more closely at the demographic which voted Leave, there's nothing really which pulls it together.
00:25:01.040 It's, you know, an amalgamation of people with very, very different views in different parts of the country and different parts of the social strata.
00:25:10.960 You know, I think it's 46% of the AB group, for example, you know, the top social group voted Leave.
00:25:19.400 One in three of university graduates.
00:25:21.380 You know, they wouldn't have won without the university graduates.
00:25:24.300 And so on and so on and so on.
00:25:26.220 And the young vote, you know, it was, I think, 50-50, aged 25 to 40.
00:25:35.700 It's not as simple as they put it.
00:25:37.560 But what there is, is a very interesting demographic of a portion of the Remain vote.
00:25:44.580 now most Remainers
00:25:46.540 I suspect are like us, like you guys
00:25:48.780 you voted Remain
00:25:50.300 because we're good people
00:25:52.460 you're good people
00:25:53.520 that's a running joke on the show
00:25:56.140 and we don't see colour
00:25:57.640 but most of us
00:26:01.460 it was a difficult decision
00:26:04.180 and we voted one way
00:26:06.040 or the other
00:26:07.900 and we can talk about it
00:26:09.700 and there's not a problem
00:26:10.860 and you know people who voted Leave
00:26:13.360 and I know people who voted Remain.
00:26:15.100 Most of my friends voted Remain.
00:26:17.160 There is this tranche of the Remain vote.
00:26:20.400 I don't know how much.
00:26:21.760 Looking at the figures,
00:26:23.420 my guess is somewhere between 20% to 30%.
00:26:27.720 I guess they're the 29% of Remain voters
00:26:34.040 who defriended anyone on Facebook who voted Leave.
00:26:38.400 That's an incredibly high amount.
00:26:40.800 Nearly once, you know, 29% they'd defend you just because you had a different opinion to them.
00:26:47.740 And it's the BBC, where my estimate is 94, 95% in favour of...
00:26:54.280 Well, no, I genuinely think that's a moderate assessment.
00:26:57.460 I mean, there are other ones.
00:26:58.840 And you're not just the guy talking, you used to work for the BBC.
00:27:00.720 I used to work for the BBC.
00:27:01.600 I mean, I know one person in the entire organisation who voted Leave.
00:27:05.720 And I know three or four hundred people in the BBC, you know.
00:27:12.040 But it's not just the BBC.
00:27:13.940 It's the creative industries, you know.
00:27:18.020 Sam West, we're all in mourning.
00:27:22.200 You can't.
00:27:24.720 It was something like 96% of the lovies.
00:27:28.800 Yeah.
00:27:30.420 It was 93% of academicians.
00:27:34.520 so the people in Chateau
00:27:36.140 universities
00:27:36.720 it was 70% of
00:27:39.960 teachers
00:27:40.560 and my guess is and I don't know this
00:27:44.020 for a fact, my guess is approaching
00:27:45.920 90% in the south of the
00:27:48.040 country
00:27:48.380 and these are people who simply
00:27:51.640 never met anyone
00:27:53.540 they really
00:27:56.120 are like Margaret Thatcher when she was asked
00:27:57.980 about the poor, oh we saw
00:28:00.000 them at the end of the street on occasions
00:28:02.240 they have never
00:28:04.060 actually come into contact with people who voted leave. They are entirely insulated.
00:28:13.160 And so that when they say, I don't know anyone who voted leave, they mean it and they're
00:28:16.520 telling the truth. And this echo chamber that they live in, and this is a great thing about
00:28:22.800 the Brexit vote, that it's exposed this massive divide, this incredible distance which there is
00:28:30.280 between what the American sociologist Charles Murray calls the super elite, what John Gray,
00:28:36.860 a far better writer in this country, calls the hyper liberals, who simply cannot countenance
00:28:43.580 argument, do not understand where that argument comes from, will categorize that argument as
00:28:48.900 coming from stupidity, ill education, and xenophobia, whenever it does occur, and are
00:28:55.280 constantly reinforced in their opinions by everyone else they fucking work with.
00:29:01.260 It is remarkable.
00:29:03.180 And Brexit deserves a round of applause for having opened that to us.
00:29:08.460 Because I don't think, it was always there,
00:29:11.440 but I don't think it was ever as clear as it is now.
00:29:14.860 And I think the point you just made is very, very true.
00:29:18.460 And the sentence that sums it up is what I hear all the time
00:29:21.860 from the hyper-liberal Remainers, which is,
00:29:24.680 not everyone who voted
00:29:26.980 leave was racist, but all
00:29:28.960 racists voted leave. You know who
00:29:30.860 came up with that, don't you? No.
00:29:33.640 Billy Cunting
00:29:34.720 Bragg.
00:29:36.660 And I wrote at the time,
00:29:38.760 yeah, Bill, yeah.
00:29:41.640 Not all
00:29:42.600 twats buy Billy Bragg records,
00:29:44.820 but everyone who's bought a Billy Bragg
00:29:46.700 record is a twat.
00:29:48.860 I mean, no, it's ridiculous.
00:29:50.980 And it was exploded, you know,
00:29:52.860 within
00:29:53.120 very unusually
00:29:56.480 by the BBC within two months of
00:29:58.720 Brexit. I remember
00:30:00.720 Adrian Childs did a piece
00:30:02.680 from Birmingham
00:30:03.220 where he just
00:30:06.820 interviewed the people who'd voted
00:30:08.020 leave.
00:30:10.640 And he said, I don't see
00:30:11.880 sorry, I can't really do Birmingham.
00:30:14.820 Shall I leave the accident?
00:30:18.180 I don't
00:30:18.920 see these people as being racist. These people aren't
00:30:20.820 racist. I didn't see any
00:30:22.860 racism in it at all.
00:30:26.840 There wasn't an animus against
00:30:28.700 immigrants.
00:30:30.880 There was an animus against a process which
00:30:32.840 had allowed untrammeled immigration,
00:30:35.340 number one.
00:30:36.760 There wasn't an animus against Polish
00:30:38.780 people. I mean, fucking hell,
00:30:41.120 they're to the right of us.
00:30:44.300 None of
00:30:45.060 that. It was
00:30:46.620 no, you know,
00:30:48.380 we would like to control our own borders.
00:30:50.740 We think that's a sensible way to go on.
00:30:54.620 And I've never seen the animus towards black, ethnic minority, Polish, whatever,
00:31:03.380 that the left insists is an integral part of wishing to leave.
00:31:08.220 It's just bollocks, absolute bollocks.
00:31:12.000 I'm curious about your position on this whole thing,
00:31:15.800 because as you said before we started the interview,
00:31:17.800 you weren't a particularly ardent lever.
00:31:20.520 You kind of voted to leave on the balance of things, but slightly.
00:31:27.120 There are great reasons to stay in the EU.
00:31:30.880 No question about it.
00:31:32.020 Like what?
00:31:32.960 Well, coming from the northeast of England, the amount of money that the EU poured into the northeast of England,
00:31:38.260 which I think, okay, we're now in charge of our finances, we can do it.
00:31:42.460 Will we?
00:31:43.800 It's rather good.
00:31:44.760 I think there was something like 120,000 jobs in the Northeast depend upon trade with Europe.
00:31:53.680 But also, something else I'm really interested in is science and research, and undemocratic
00:32:00.260 though it may be, I think there's something rather good about having certain funding ring
00:32:05.000 fenced from the five-year parliamentary cycle that can go to stuff like the Jet Taurus lab
00:32:10.100 in Oxford, so that we can
00:32:11.820 maybe find a form of energy which is
00:32:14.180 clean and
00:32:15.520 virtually
00:32:16.500 inexhaustible. All those
00:32:20.140 things are good. And, basically,
00:32:22.800 you know, I am
00:32:24.100 swayed a bit by
00:32:25.240 the notion that peace has reigned
00:32:28.180 in Europe for
00:32:28.960 a long time.
00:32:32.260 Those are the main reasons I voted remain.
00:32:33.900 It's a good reason.
00:32:36.160 You could argue that NATO's
00:32:37.660 part of that, or you could
00:32:39.900 argue that trade deals, that are decent trade. But still, it still seems to me to have some force
00:32:45.520 that, you know, we have had peace. And, you know, contrary to what people like Alistair Campbell
00:32:54.580 and Peter Mandelson would say, I feel European, you know. I like Europe. I'm particularly
00:33:01.220 Germanophile. Okay, I loathe France. You know, but we're not all perfect, are we, you know.
00:33:07.020 But I adore Europe, and particularly the parts of Europe which have more latterly been enjoined to join the European Union, such as, you know, Poland, the Baltic States, Hungary, and so on.
00:33:21.340 So I adore it.
00:33:22.520 I notice it's my culture.
00:33:24.840 I think that's kind of trumped a little bit by the fact that I also feel British, Anglo-Saxon, and therefore some connection with America.
00:33:35.700 You know, the first time I went to America, I felt at home immediately because it's where the novels I'd read, the music and so on.
00:33:42.220 And also the Commonwealth for historical reasons and for decent historical reasons.
00:33:47.640 You know, we have a responsibility.
00:33:50.020 So it was a very, very difficult call.
00:33:52.140 And I thought it was just about, it was just about the, in the end, the thing which won it for me was the European Union's increasingly authoritarian attitude towards countries under its dominion.
00:34:05.120 particularly Poland and Hungary, but also Catalonia, and its ever-increasing expansionism,
00:34:12.480 not geographically-wise, but policy-wise, that it wished control over all of us.
00:34:18.420 And I think the nation-state kind of works.
00:34:21.520 It's why I'm a social democrat.
00:34:23.060 You know, I think the nation-state kind of works.
00:34:26.260 It works for us.
00:34:27.540 I can equally see why, if you're Luxembourgish or German, for differing reasons,
00:34:35.120 you may have problems about the nation-state and its power.
00:34:39.020 I get that, but we're not them.
00:34:42.060 And the thing that nobody really talks about is how sustainable is the EU,
00:34:47.740 even if we remain within it?
00:34:49.420 Because if you look at the northern European states and the southern European states,
00:34:54.120 I mean, the southern European states, number one, to put it bluntly, are fucked economically.
00:34:58.920 They always fucking were, mate.
00:34:59.940 I wrote a piece for the Spectator about 10 years ago now
00:35:06.980 where I said what I'd really like is a kind of Hanseatic League.
00:35:11.000 That's what I'd like, a trading bloc.
00:35:13.460 And I'd get rid of the Catholics first.
00:35:18.340 I'm sorry.
00:35:20.180 That's Spain, Italy.
00:35:22.220 Actually, parts of Italy are allowed in.
00:35:24.920 Milan is allowed in.
00:35:26.980 Turin?
00:35:27.540 Turin is allowed in.
00:35:28.840 Milan is allowed in.
00:35:29.360 Because it's not really Italian.
00:35:30.900 You go there, it's like Austria.
00:35:32.600 It's Germany.
00:35:33.360 Yeah, exactly.
00:35:34.680 So hardworking northern Protestant people.
00:35:38.640 And a few Slavs.
00:35:40.380 Because they're hardworking and clever as well.
00:35:42.380 You know what I like about Rod?
00:35:43.360 He gets accused of being racist and the naughty
00:35:45.340 and his favourite country in Europe is Germany.
00:35:47.580 That's right.
00:35:48.380 Well, that's very true.
00:35:49.160 But it could be worse.
00:35:49.880 It could be Austria.
00:35:51.300 Because that's where the best ones were from.
00:35:53.680 Actually, Lithuania.
00:35:54.980 but no
00:36:01.060 it always struck me
00:36:02.540 it's true about the racism
00:36:05.060 in a way in that my objections
00:36:06.860 to the European Union back in the
00:36:08.880 90s were racist
00:36:10.640 in that or at least
00:36:14.480 left wingers would call them racist
00:36:16.940 what I thought was much as you've just said
00:36:19.140 that I don't think that Greece
00:36:20.880 Italy and Spain
00:36:21.960 are either culturally or economically
00:36:24.780 in the same area as we are.
00:36:28.020 I would have them form a different block, you know,
00:36:31.260 which is nice, easygoing people who go to sleep at midday.
00:36:36.720 You know, they could have their block over there.
00:36:39.480 And I think I was right.
00:36:42.240 I don't think that cultural difference has ever been assuaged.
00:36:48.000 I think that's still there.
00:36:49.260 And, of course, it was behind the great crisis with Spain and Portugal,
00:36:52.660 The pigs, Portugal, Greece, Spain, and Ireland.
00:36:58.180 And Ireland.
00:37:02.360 I'm wondering who's still watching this,
00:37:04.320 who hasn't switched off and unsubscribed and reported.
00:37:07.340 I'm going to be at a trade stage and someone's going to go.
00:37:10.760 I'm joking partly.
00:37:12.620 So are we.
00:37:14.420 Of course.
00:37:15.220 Of course, of course, of course.
00:37:16.260 Absolutely.
00:37:16.880 That's the point.
00:37:17.540 But isn't part of this, okay, and we are joking, of course,
00:37:20.400 But doesn't the euro have to take responsibility in that that currency has been manufactured, created to suit the Germanic economy and everybody else who's got, you know, economy depends on agriculture and tourism.
00:37:36.080 Fuck them.
00:37:37.460 Partly, partly.
00:37:38.740 But the euro was a bad idea.
00:37:40.660 Every single opinion poll in the 1990s, which was about whether we should join a single currency.
00:37:46.320 No.
00:37:46.520 And every single opinion poll in the 1990s about whether we should stay in the EU, always yes.
00:37:53.880 And you can add into the euro the European Central Bank, which is ineffectual, weak, doesn't know what it's doing.
00:38:02.680 So, yes.
00:38:05.820 But that's the thing.
00:38:07.360 The rather horrible truth is that one of the reasons I voted leave reluctantly was in the hope that if we left, the European Union might be forced to reform itself a bit and might shift a little bit more along the axis, which I, and by the sound of it, you, would prefer.
00:38:32.880 Now, I think I probably got that wrong, but there has been a change.
00:38:38.000 You know, we have seen across Europe populists from both the left and right.
00:38:42.780 People always forget.
00:38:43.840 People when they denigrate populists, it's fascism, you know, it's Hitler,
00:38:49.100 as everything is sort of deferred to these days, referred to these days.
00:38:54.240 There's populism from the left.
00:38:56.300 Syriza was populism from the left.
00:38:58.480 There's a good argument as well.
00:39:02.100 The SNP is populism from the left.
00:39:05.740 And Corbyn, for that matter.
00:39:08.500 Please don't say anything about sainted Jeremy.
00:39:10.800 He's probably remain.
00:39:12.900 He's never been frowning.
00:39:15.920 He's just frowning the bear there.
00:39:18.180 I just threw that off.
00:39:20.600 We can come on to him if you like.
00:39:22.060 But no, what I hoped was that we might get back to being a trading bloc.
00:39:27.560 And if you look at the opinion polls in Europe, with the exception of a few countries, and bizarrely Luxembourg is counted as a country, why is it?
00:39:41.880 I mean, who gives a fuck?
00:39:44.220 You know?
00:39:45.880 It's like when this all happened, when Brexit happened.
00:39:49.280 And I heard on the radio we were being lectured to by an Estonian.
00:39:58.020 What the fuck?
00:39:59.760 You're telling us?
00:40:01.320 You know, I do think there's a bit tail wagging the dog.
00:40:03.000 On behalf of all Eastern Europeans, I'm deeply offended by this.
00:40:06.340 But see, the great thing...
00:40:07.420 Well, they're not Eastern Europeans.
00:40:08.200 Don't forget, they're pseudo-Fins, I guess.
00:40:11.780 Pseudo-Scandies.
00:40:12.920 Pseudo-Scandies.
00:40:13.560 Yeah, they are, actually.
00:40:14.420 The Livonian Order and all that.
00:40:15.420 And it's a beautiful country, and they're good people.
00:40:16.840 what I mean is that
00:40:18.180 they're good people from a tiny insignificant
00:40:22.940 country no one gives a fuck about
00:40:24.160 see the good thing about offending people from Luxembourg
00:40:26.780 is there's so few of them it doesn't really matter
00:40:28.420 we are where we are what I actually wanted to talk
00:40:32.860 to you about is I think
00:40:34.880 the area of agreement between us probably
00:40:36.860 more than anything is what has happened
00:40:38.620 since the referendum
00:40:40.300 because both Francis and I voted remain
00:40:42.800 but I think anyone with any
00:40:44.960 sense now has to recognize
00:40:46.760 that, well, it just doesn't make sense.
00:40:49.800 We have a parliament that refuses to respect the wishes of the people.
00:40:53.400 We have a prime minister who's now, you could say,
00:40:55.660 forced to not respect the wishes of parliament.
00:40:57.900 We've had a parliament that is just not representative of the country at all
00:41:02.540 in terms of that crucial issue that's the only issue.
00:41:05.700 Do you know what we need to do?
00:41:07.560 We need to rerun the referendum.
00:41:10.940 Not the Brexit referendum, the AV referendum.
00:41:15.580 Proportional representation.
00:41:17.720 I've always been first past the post, always.
00:41:21.180 But when you look at the House of Commons now,
00:41:23.800 I mean, basically, the problem is,
00:41:26.980 and always was right from the start,
00:41:28.720 it was something in the region of 6 to 1 in favour of Remain.
00:41:35.560 And every major party had a majority in favour of Remain,
00:41:39.760 apart from the DUP.
00:41:44.380 But it's not just that, is it?
00:41:46.760 You know, it's not just that.
00:41:49.060 It's that my suspicion is that an awful lot of the public,
00:41:55.800 particularly in the areas I come from,
00:41:57.560 but I think a large proportion of the public,
00:42:00.940 are economically fairly leftish.
00:42:04.760 They agree with nationalization.
00:42:06.620 The polls tend to support that.
00:42:08.860 Higher taxes, yeah, we can go along with that.
00:42:10.840 Improves society.
00:42:12.480 Higher minimum, yeah, we can do all that.
00:42:14.440 We can do all that.
00:42:15.280 but are socially quite conservative.
00:42:18.180 And that is not remotely reflected in Parliament,
00:42:21.660 where people are neoliberal,
00:42:23.380 and they're neoliberal on the right in economics.
00:42:27.380 They're neoliberal in foreign policy,
00:42:29.400 which means we interfere in sovereign countries
00:42:31.760 and cause murder and mayhem.
00:42:34.000 And they're neoliberal or liberal on social policy
00:42:37.880 to the degree that the vast majority of people,
00:42:41.240 the obvious examples of this are on transgenderism.
00:42:44.740 is a clear and obvious case, that the vast majority of people in the country are utterly
00:42:50.220 averse. And Parliament does not reflect that. The Conservative Party doesn't reflect it.
00:42:57.580 The Conservative Party, for me, is mindless towards the working class, mindless towards
00:43:05.000 cares not one jot about equality
00:43:07.320 but will make
00:43:09.500 every possible
00:43:10.960 kowtowing
00:43:14.000 to a liberal social agenda
00:43:16.460 which no one agrees with
00:43:18.840 well I say no one
00:43:20.020 it's a minority
00:43:21.640 that's the big difference
00:43:24.580 and it's taken Brexit
00:43:25.980 I just hope that some people
00:43:28.680 will have woken up to that
00:43:29.820 but it doesn't seem that anybody's woken up to it
00:43:33.200 in fact it just seemed that what's happened
00:43:34.940 is that people are becoming more entrenched
00:43:36.700 and more inflexible.
00:43:38.940 Well, the liberals are,
00:43:40.080 but I think the liberals are becoming more entrenched
00:43:41.920 and more inflexible
00:43:42.820 because they know their fucking days are numbered.
00:43:45.020 I mean, I really do think they think that.
00:43:48.120 If you look at the,
00:43:50.620 not at the specifics of sophology in the UK,
00:43:59.040 but just the generality of it across Europe,
00:44:02.860 The trend has been towards people who want no more immigration,
00:44:08.420 who aren't terribly keen on, you know, the personal politics, identity politics, social issues.
00:44:17.540 Don't want any of that stuff.
00:44:19.680 That's been the trend of the last eight to ten years, and it's getting more and more.
00:44:26.820 Now, it's exemplified by people who we might not always like, such as Uncle Vic in Hungary.
00:44:32.120 and those countries are being bullied by the European Union over this.
00:44:40.280 But I think there's an overwhelming feeling in Europe at the moment,
00:44:45.320 and it's growing and growing,
00:44:47.100 which doesn't mean that they want to leave the EU necessarily,
00:44:50.020 but they want it to be a different beast,
00:44:51.840 and they wish this liberal elite to be lifted from their shoulders.
00:44:57.680 I'm sure they think that.
00:44:59.480 I'm sure they think that.
00:45:00.640 but to my mind
00:45:02.480 if you've got
00:45:03.180 this whole raft
00:45:04.140 of people
00:45:04.640 who are the people
00:45:05.320 who go to university
00:45:06.400 who are the people
00:45:07.260 who go to Oxford
00:45:08.040 and Cambridge
00:45:08.640 you're never going
00:45:10.520 to get rid of them
00:45:11.200 it's very difficult
00:45:12.200 it's very difficult
00:45:13.080 how are you going
00:45:13.600 to do it
00:45:14.000 we're talking about
00:45:14.880 Gransky and the
00:45:15.580 march through the
00:45:16.100 institutions
00:45:16.640 we're talking a bit
00:45:18.060 about Herbert Marcuse
00:45:19.200 it is very
00:45:22.620 very difficult
00:45:23.480 I can tell you
00:45:24.600 how we do it
00:45:24.980 in Russia
00:45:25.300 there are some
00:45:28.660 occasions where
00:45:29.540 Russia has a point
00:45:30.460 Not many, but the BBC, for example, it's a good example.
00:45:38.140 The BBC has done a brilliant job in the last 20 years of becoming more diverse ethnically.
00:45:49.340 When I joined the BBC, you would go through seven floors of exclusively white people
00:45:57.700 until you got to the canteen on the eighth floor when it was all black.
00:46:01.800 That's changed, and it's good that it's changed.
00:46:05.020 It's good.
00:46:06.880 Could we not try some sort of legislation to ensure that there's diversity of opinion?
00:46:12.500 Should it not be necessary for our big news and current affairs programs
00:46:17.220 to have a kind of broad sweep of opinion on there?
00:46:21.940 Particularly given that we all pay for them.
00:46:24.120 Given that we all pay for them.
00:46:25.480 You know, that they should be encouraged to have diversity of opinion rather than this monolithic culture, which it has at the moment.
00:46:32.980 I don't see that as a problem.
00:46:34.700 Now, what do you do about universities?
00:46:36.520 Can you do the same thing?
00:46:37.560 I think you probably can.
00:46:39.440 And the universities have always tended to the left, generally.
00:46:48.380 But, as we know from the statistics, they've become more and more left-wing.
00:46:52.580 It's now somewhere in the region 95%, I think, in the U.S. that's Democrat.
00:46:58.880 A few things have fed into that.
00:47:02.300 One of them is the fact that so many people go to university now to do utterly fucking fatuous degrees,
00:47:08.040 almost always in social sciences.
00:47:11.280 That's been the big growth area.
00:47:13.880 Wank.
00:47:14.260 gallons of wank
00:47:17.000 which will cost these poor kids
00:47:19.460 40,000 quid
00:47:21.080 to come away from
00:47:23.180 the Queen Mary University
00:47:25.340 or the University of Westminster
00:47:27.260 University of Westminster
00:47:29.320 with a degree in gender
00:47:31.440 wank
00:47:31.820 and think they're going to walk into a top job
00:47:35.440 you know
00:47:37.300 I think it's
00:47:41.300 far harder
00:47:41.780 I mean, it would be more interesting to deal with the teachers as well, because it's another
00:47:48.200 area where, again, there is heading towards close to unanimity of opinion.
00:47:53.620 And I spoke to a lad who, quote him in the book, who voted leave, you know, and he was
00:48:01.200 a teacher at a school in London, and the hatred he got from colleagues, just incomprehensible
00:48:08.720 hatred.
00:48:09.200 But, you know, how the fuck do you attack that?
00:48:13.000 How do you stop that?
00:48:15.280 There was a headmaster of a school in Dulwich who said that if any people in this school said anything similar to what Donald Trump had been saying about immigration, they would be expelled, excluded.
00:48:28.440 I mean, this is mad, you know.
00:48:31.980 And I don't know what you do about that.
00:48:33.780 I mean, close down the fucking teacher training colleges.
00:48:36.880 You know, just what the fuck?
00:48:39.200 Do they learn that?
00:48:41.100 You know?
00:48:42.460 And I think the growth of some of the free schools
00:48:45.520 is an antidote to that.
00:48:48.040 Well, we've had Catherine Burble sing on the show.
00:48:50.720 Well, Catherine Burble sing should be...
00:48:53.240 Our educational policy should be dictated
00:48:56.580 by Catherine Burble sing and Tony Sewell.
00:48:59.460 We've had them both on.
00:49:00.720 Tony is a great mate and a lovely bloke.
00:49:05.440 And he would make a brilliant education secretary.
00:49:07.640 So would Catherine.
00:49:08.620 That's what you need.
00:49:10.220 And just get rid of this flaccid, self-serving and contradictory toss that the kids are taught at the moment.
00:49:20.460 Because this is a great thing about, and it's why liberalism is falling apart, that these identity politics stuff, it's all mutually contradictory.
00:49:31.000 And it falls apart.
00:49:32.020 You tug at the one little thread of it and it falls apart like a mohead jumper knitted by the village idiot.
00:49:37.960 which we saw with the protests in Birmingham
00:49:43.500 about sex education in schools
00:49:47.420 who do we stick up for
00:49:50.220 is it the gays, is it the Muslims
00:49:52.960 who comes out on top
00:49:54.380 and it's interesting because I'm a former teacher
00:49:56.800 I was a teacher for 11 years
00:49:57.880 it's alright Rod
00:50:00.460 but one thing I found very interesting
00:50:02.540 is how identity politics has actually started
00:50:05.220 to infect teacher training
00:50:07.320 so for instance we went to a course
00:50:09.720 and one of them was about how to teach
00:50:11.700 black boys
00:50:12.320 and then you had to
00:50:16.040 treat them differently
00:50:17.180 you see this is where Tony Sewell
00:50:19.940 would change the world
00:50:22.220 and the thing is I'm sitting there
00:50:24.000 going well this is just basically racism
00:50:25.900 because you're looking at somebody and you're not
00:50:27.920 actually thinking what their capabilities
00:50:29.880 are, how academic they are
00:50:31.320 you're thinking they're black, they're male
00:50:33.660 therefore we have to treat them differently
00:50:35.800 That is racism.
00:50:36.660 Two things on that.
00:50:38.080 I mean, you're absolutely right.
00:50:39.100 It's racist.
00:50:40.980 Tony once picked up on it a long time ago.
00:50:43.800 When I first noticed a guy, when there was a kind of Seacole mania.
00:50:51.540 I don't know if you remember it, but it was a time when every building in Britain had to be named Seacole House.
00:50:58.560 Because here was a black woman who would be an aspirational figure for black students.
00:51:04.140 and Tony said
00:51:06.260 why should they aspire to be a fucking
00:51:09.000 nurse
00:51:09.540 just because she's got black
00:51:12.920 skin, why shouldn't they
00:51:15.000 aspire to be Faraday
00:51:16.320 or Shakespeare
00:51:17.540 why do they, why
00:51:19.800 it's
00:51:21.200 all of this stuff is racist
00:51:24.040 it is racist
00:51:25.400 it is
00:51:26.520 letting down
00:51:29.480 you know, a community
00:51:32.200 which could have
00:51:33.540 so much more
00:51:35.620 to aspire to than this
00:51:37.060 and corralled into this perpetual state of
00:51:39.460 victimhood
00:51:40.060 it just
00:51:41.500 it's crippling
00:51:44.860 because what you're saying is that
00:51:47.580 you will never be capable of doing
00:51:49.320 what all the other children are capable of
00:51:51.180 therefore we need to put
00:51:53.560 in special provisions for you
00:51:54.860 and it's also a form of narcissism
00:51:56.860 because it's look what I'm a good person
00:51:58.660 that's right it's virtue signal
00:52:00.280 but we're also doing it with boys
00:52:03.060 We had one training session where we had a teacher training person come in, tell us how boys couldn't be expected to write at a desk for longer than 15 minutes.
00:52:11.780 They needed to have a break.
00:52:13.680 And it's just, yeah.
00:52:15.540 And then, you know, they have to do small targets in order to keep them engaged.
00:52:19.060 And it's bollocks.
00:52:20.140 I have huge problems with my daughter's at a grammar school.
00:52:23.700 She passed her 11 plus.
00:52:25.460 Of course, I mean, she's got my genes.
00:52:27.120 And the identity politics and the propaganda is now in kind of every subject apart from maths and physics.
00:52:41.660 It's in geography, English, it's everywhere.
00:52:43.900 When you study Of Mice and Men by Steinbeck, you are asked, what does this tell us about sexism in 1950s, 1930s, 1940s?
00:52:59.140 You know, nothing about the book.
00:53:01.860 It's all corralled into this monomaniacal hierarchy of victimhoods.
00:53:10.500 And it's terribly debilitating.
00:53:12.380 But as I say, I mean, the good news is it is falling apart.
00:53:16.480 You know, believe me, the transgender stuff, the fury of the lesbian community and the
00:53:26.620 feminist community, and to an increasing degree, the male gay community, it's all beginning
00:53:34.640 to fall apart at the edges.
00:53:36.200 Because, of course, it has to.
00:53:37.660 Because you can't build a world like that where it's all about competing victimhoods.
00:53:44.100 It's an absurdity.
00:53:46.140 Why do you think it has been so tremendously successful?
00:53:50.440 Do you think it's because we are naturally wired for empathy,
00:53:54.000 and so when someone claims victimhood, we are naturally drawn to go,
00:53:58.280 oh, well, you feel bad, therefore I should try and take your concerns into account,
00:54:02.700 even if they're not necessarily based in reality in certain instances?
00:54:07.320 Do you think that's it?
00:54:08.200 I think that may be why some people, that's a good explanation of why some well-meaning
00:54:12.580 middle-class people may feel that.
00:54:14.940 But I think that most of it devolves from the notion that capitalism is bad, which it
00:54:25.000 may be, that it's run by white males who are therefore bad, that the Cold War comes
00:54:33.120 into it, political alignment comes into it.
00:54:35.780 Basically, that we are the white oppressive state and everyone else is de facto subjugated.
00:54:44.300 I mean, I remember back in 1983, 84, beginning to see this.
00:54:50.560 I think that's when it began, late 70s, early 80s, when the National Union of Journalists
00:54:57.500 were advised by the Commission for Racial Equality that henceforth Chinese people should
00:55:03.800 be described as being black
00:55:05.320 I was on the far left at this point
00:55:11.840 and I thought
00:55:12.420 what the fuck
00:55:14.280 and in various places
00:55:17.680 around London and Manchester
00:55:19.340 various people were going
00:55:20.820 what the fuck
00:55:21.640 they really weren't happy about that
00:55:25.500 well the Chinese
00:55:26.780 I don't see them enjoying that
00:55:28.400 that was a Chinese accent
00:55:29.660 come on
00:55:33.780 You know, I'm a writer.
00:55:36.280 I don't try to perform.
00:55:39.820 But this was an attempt, and it's the root of it all,
00:55:46.040 to say that the Chinese people are objectively black
00:55:48.740 because they are subjects of an oppressive white state.
00:55:56.260 And everybody, and it's why Peter Tatchell,
00:55:59.480 who I respect as a guy enormously and get on with terribly well,
00:56:03.780 will sometimes say
00:56:06.580 to me
00:56:07.320 Muslims and gay people ought to try
00:56:10.560 and make common
00:56:11.420 cause against the oppression
00:56:14.160 which they suffer in society
00:56:15.900 right
00:56:18.600 I wouldn't go up
00:56:20.300 any tall buildings
00:56:21.360 I'd just keep it
00:56:24.260 on the ground floor
00:56:25.560 I like Peter
00:56:27.920 we've had him on the show
00:56:28.780 he's very idealistic
00:56:30.000 which is one of the reasons
00:56:31.980 he's done what he's done
00:56:33.000 and he's very moral
00:56:34.900 and a good guy
00:56:36.500 you know
00:56:37.260 and he was the guy
00:56:38.100 who stood up for
00:56:39.000 the Irish bakers
00:56:41.620 the Northern Irish bakers
00:56:43.140 you know
00:56:43.460 he believes in freedom of speech
00:56:44.680 he is a good man
00:56:45.780 but there is this blind spot
00:56:47.800 you know
00:56:49.600 we are all victims
00:56:50.920 we are all victims
00:56:52.800 you're a victim
00:56:53.680 you know
00:56:54.420 you kind of aren't
00:56:56.260 fuck you
00:56:58.440 well you see
00:57:00.320 that's the thing
00:57:01.040 because my mum's from Venezuela
00:57:02.280 so actually
00:57:02.920 I'm a fuck
00:57:03.380 is she really
00:57:03.580 yeah she fucking is
00:57:04.540 you can drink now
00:57:05.440 but as a trigonometry
00:57:06.360 I mention it every episode
00:57:07.540 do you really
00:57:08.160 yeah yeah absolutely
00:57:09.080 is she a Chavez fan
00:57:10.000 no she fucking hates him
00:57:11.460 she's a Trump fan
00:57:12.660 yeah she loves Trump
00:57:13.660 because Trump is the only one
00:57:14.880 who's actually doing something
00:57:15.980 about Venezuela
00:57:16.800 so she's a middle class Venezuelan
00:57:18.180 yeah absolutely
00:57:18.940 yeah but she despises
00:57:20.860 you know
00:57:21.400 but it's that thing
00:57:22.320 of what we are all victims
00:57:23.760 we're all victims
00:57:24.740 yeah
00:57:25.340 and
00:57:26.080 the other fascinating thing
00:57:28.620 if you've got time
00:57:29.480 to talk about this
00:57:30.460 yeah yeah
00:57:30.800 the other fascinating thing
00:57:31.960 it's a bit like with charities, that you begin by saying that you're a victim, that these people
00:57:37.840 in society are victims. And you set up charities, you set up legislation. Charities begin to work
00:57:43.380 for legislation. Legislation is enacted to protect those people. But it becomes an industry.
00:57:48.920 And what always happens is that it expands. So that, for example, with disability,
00:57:56.200 at one point, there is absolutely no question that disabled people in this country had a really,
00:58:00.460 really bad run of it, probably
00:58:02.460 still do in many cases. They do actually
00:58:04.580 yeah, because my mum's the same. But
00:58:06.020 fuck your mum for a minute
00:58:08.460 This is my
00:58:10.660 favourite moment of three months
00:58:12.060 A guest finally
00:58:14.600 says what I've been meaning to say for a very long
00:58:16.560 time
00:58:16.900 But what happens is
00:58:21.560 and it's the same with gay
00:58:24.440 stuff as well, it's no
00:58:26.460 longer enough to say that this is a persecuted minority
00:58:28.560 you have to say
00:58:30.420 Actually, it's not a minority.
00:58:31.980 Did you know that one in three people are disabled?
00:58:34.880 Well, no, they're not.
00:58:36.520 But that's what the disability lobby will tell you.
00:58:40.040 And there are now invisible disabilities.
00:58:43.680 And people who are depressed will get free parking.
00:58:47.780 Did you know that?
00:58:48.920 No.
00:58:49.560 Oh, yes.
00:58:51.200 Free parking for people who are depressed.
00:58:53.620 We're all fucking depressed, are we not?
00:58:56.080 But it's the same as the gay lobby as well, which is undoubted horrible discrimination.
00:59:07.180 But it's not enough.
00:59:08.340 Well, no, no, we don't just want to that.
00:59:11.460 It's one in three people are gay or one in four people.
00:59:14.540 No, they're not.
00:59:16.380 You know, you don't have to do that.
00:59:18.600 But that's what we've done with all of this stuff.
00:59:20.800 It expands exponentially until we are all victims.
00:59:25.460 We could all be disabled if we want to be.
00:59:27.900 I could register as disabled now.
00:59:30.440 You know?
00:59:31.260 My eyesight's not brilliant.
00:59:34.020 I'm from Middlesbrough.
00:59:37.220 I'm a fat cunt.
00:59:39.720 We could all register now.
00:59:42.740 And that's what we've done.
00:59:44.160 We're trying to make everyone victims.
00:59:46.200 It's bizarre.
00:59:47.880 It is bizarre.
00:59:49.600 Because I was going to move on to talking about...
00:59:52.040 I was just going to say, I'm curious still to prod you more on why you think that idea of victimhood has been so successful, because that is a huge transformation.
01:00:06.140 Because we like being victims.
01:00:07.720 But here's the thing, right?
01:00:09.040 Is 40 or 50 years ago, we had an aspirational culture.
01:00:13.420 You were taught to be strong, particularly if you were a man.
01:00:16.180 You were taught to be strong.
01:00:17.560 You were taught to be resilient.
01:00:18.740 and you were taught that your job as a human being
01:00:21.440 is to face the challenges that life throws at you.
01:00:24.400 The movies that we would watch,
01:00:25.800 the Sylvester Stallone in Rocky,
01:00:27.720 saying life hits harder than anything you ever imagined,
01:00:31.020 but it's about keeping going.
01:00:32.560 We were being conned by a culture.
01:00:34.420 We were being conned back then
01:00:35.880 by a paternalistic, patriarchal, socialistic culture.
01:00:41.160 We were.
01:00:41.860 That's what they will tell you.
01:00:43.160 But I think there's also something appealing
01:00:44.980 in that we are all victims.
01:00:47.000 I think everybody likes it.
01:00:48.920 There's power.
01:00:49.680 There's power in it.
01:00:51.020 And also cachet.
01:00:52.840 Yeah.
01:00:53.560 You know, my daughter's school, you know,
01:00:56.500 as soon as you start talking about transgenderism or pansexuality
01:00:59.920 or greysexuality and all the other sexualities there,
01:01:03.500 they're all signing up for them.
01:01:05.940 I'm different.
01:01:07.180 I'm like that.
01:01:08.580 Whereas I, at school, when I was trying to be different,
01:01:10.840 would strip naked and stand like Jesus Christ in front of people
01:01:14.280 and scream that they were going to be sent to hell.
01:01:16.320 which I thought actually took a bit of doing
01:01:19.280 you know just identifying
01:01:21.560 as something
01:01:22.440 Suddenly your career makes a lot of sense
01:01:24.560 But isn't it also
01:01:28.700 an easy get out
01:01:30.140 in saying I'm not responsible for my action
01:01:32.760 It's a condition syndrome as well
01:01:34.940 Everything is a condition
01:01:36.360 ADHD and
01:01:38.060 the two obvious ones are ADHD and dyslexia
01:01:41.000 you know
01:01:42.580 it's very very difficult
01:01:45.100 to tell the difference
01:01:46.820 scientifically between someone
01:01:49.480 who's dyslexic and someone
01:01:51.640 middle class mum and dad
01:01:53.780 who's sick
01:01:55.760 and their children are
01:01:57.600 sick
01:01:58.140 and similarly for the ADHD
01:02:01.660 no you're a little cunt
01:02:03.620 basically
01:02:04.100 Francis is that
01:02:07.820 not the case with you?
01:02:08.620 Yeah absolutely
01:02:09.700 Is there more wine or are we finished?
01:02:13.160 Right if you were wondering
01:02:14.580 why there's so much swearing
01:02:15.520 in this episode
01:02:16.100 we unlike with other guests
01:02:17.560 who we get a cup of tea
01:02:18.700 or a coffee
01:02:19.300 we got right a glass of wine
01:02:20.620 hence the ensuing chaos
01:02:22.300 oh I'm sorry
01:02:22.820 I didn't know
01:02:23.420 there was no swearing
01:02:24.360 no
01:02:24.820 you can swear away
01:02:26.700 I'm just joking
01:02:27.260 especially about your mum
01:02:28.120 I'm so sorry
01:02:28.700 do you know what
01:02:30.600 my mum is actually
01:02:31.320 a massive fan of yours
01:02:32.380 I will put that clip
01:02:33.620 and send it to her
01:02:35.320 she'd love that
01:02:36.900 we are out of time man
01:02:39.140 are we out of time
01:02:39.800 we are out of time
01:02:40.480 I wanted to get him
01:02:41.980 to slam Corbyn
01:02:42.800 I fucking hate him
01:02:43.580 anyway
01:02:43.880 I'm Jewish, I'm up for that
01:02:46.260 It's not difficult is it
01:02:48.240 I'm half Venezuelan
01:02:50.500 he loves Matherwood
01:02:51.600 come on, just slam him for me
01:02:53.040 He was honest and decent
01:02:56.300 on Brexit for a while
01:02:57.560 against his better interests
01:03:00.480 he was principled
01:03:02.080 he's thick as shit
01:03:04.300 I mean we know this
01:03:05.420 Yeah, sure
01:03:08.000 but also
01:03:10.760 I mean
01:03:11.280 there is no imagination
01:03:14.420 or
01:03:15.020 I don't think he's read properly
01:03:18.220 I don't think he reads things
01:03:19.900 and you know
01:03:23.780 it's an indulgence
01:03:25.700 his existence in the Labour Party
01:03:28.260 was an indulgence
01:03:29.200 much as I was indulgent in
01:03:31.440 1976 when I joined the Socialist Workers Party
01:03:34.600 I knew at 16
01:03:36.200 that we weren't going to hand out weapons
01:03:38.360 at ICI and take over the country
01:03:40.480 You know, it was a bit of fun.
01:03:45.560 All that lot are stuck in that pre-adolescent mindset.
01:03:53.460 It is astonishing.
01:03:56.020 Simon Evans has this great joke in his new show where he talks about how,
01:03:59.840 he talks about all the different politicians and makes fun of both sides.
01:04:03.100 And then he goes with Jeremy Corbyn, of course,
01:04:04.600 he started in student politics where he remains to this day.
01:04:07.940 Well, exactly.
01:04:08.640 That's exactly it.
01:04:09.420 I mean, it's just, and it's the fucking affluent who fall for it.
01:04:17.660 That being said, I know quite a lot of people in London,
01:04:20.460 and I've tried to work this out psychologically,
01:04:22.800 who vote for Jeremy Corbyn and then pray he doesn't get in.
01:04:28.260 You know, that is kind of the lefty virtue signaling writ large, isn't it?
01:04:35.320 Well, on that happy note, Rod, we've got just one more question for you, which is what is the one thing that no one's talking about that we ought to be talking about?
01:04:44.880 Animal rights.
01:04:47.180 Yeah, I'm sorry.
01:04:49.800 I'm so sorry.
01:04:50.680 I'm really, really dull on animal rights.
01:04:54.100 They're going to have to cut this.
01:04:56.860 I think animal rights is one of the big issues.
01:05:00.140 There's two things.
01:05:01.020 There's rights for working class people who I don't class in the same group as animals.
01:05:05.320 I thought about making that joke, but I was like, no, no, I better not.
01:05:11.840 But you did it.
01:05:12.460 I have no reserves.
01:05:15.900 So it's two things.
01:05:16.880 I think we need identity politics for the working class,
01:05:18.980 and I also think we need to clamp down on the abuse of animals raised for food.
01:05:26.900 And if anyone ever suggests bringing back a fox hunting bill,
01:05:29.860 they should actually be shot through the head with a kind of bolt gun or a rail gun.
01:05:38.160 If you see the new rail guns.
01:05:41.920 So those two things.
01:05:43.180 Those are the two things.
01:05:44.520 So you think we need identity politics for the working class
01:05:47.780 rather than just moving away from identity politics in general?
01:05:50.660 I was being a bit flippant.
01:05:51.580 But by and large, that's the one identity which is never identity.
01:05:55.280 No, it isn't.
01:05:55.900 But my point is I think we need to remove identity politics as a thing.
01:05:59.860 Sure. Of course you do. Of course you do. You do it on economics.
01:06:03.480 Yeah. I just think one concern for me with identity politics is it pushes people who are not represented by it into their own identity.
01:06:11.200 And then you suddenly get, you know, 10 million straight white men going, oh, yeah, well, we are discriminated against because we're straight white men.
01:06:18.400 That's not going to end very well.
01:06:19.920 No, but that will happen.
01:06:21.240 Well, that's my point.
01:06:21.960 That will happen.
01:06:22.800 Which is why I don't think we need that.
01:06:24.160 Sure, sure. I mean, it's actually a quote from Morris, Morris Glassman.
01:06:28.400 he says
01:06:30.120 the Labour Party
01:06:31.240 has all this
01:06:31.760 identity politics
01:06:32.720 but none of it
01:06:33.540 about the people
01:06:34.180 it was set up
01:06:34.920 to represent
01:06:35.480 and that's
01:06:36.620 roughly where I'm from
01:06:38.060 which is why
01:06:39.000 you should vote
01:06:39.680 for the Social Democrats
01:06:41.060 that camera's
01:06:43.580 not on me
01:06:44.220 is it?
01:06:45.340 because it's probably
01:06:45.900 another one
01:06:46.100 we switched it off
01:06:46.860 a long time
01:06:47.320 can I have a drink now?
01:06:49.300 yes
01:06:49.520 we're going to have
01:06:50.360 you a drink
01:06:50.820 we're keeping all of this in
01:06:52.360 Rod thanks so much
01:06:54.480 for coming on
01:06:55.080 check out Rod's columns
01:06:56.560 as you can see
01:06:57.200 He's an edgy and very funny man with some very good ideas.
01:07:01.700 As always, follow us, because you're not on social media.
01:07:04.700 I know this for a fact, right?
01:07:06.220 Facebook?
01:07:07.000 Yeah, follow Rod on Facebook.
01:07:09.360 He's pretty active on there.
01:07:10.780 Should I be on Twitter?
01:07:12.000 Yeah.
01:07:12.380 Yeah.
01:07:13.000 You'd get cancelled very quickly, which would be great for your career.
01:07:15.900 Okay.
01:07:16.300 Do you know what being cancelled is?
01:07:17.920 Kicked off because I'm...
01:07:19.120 No, no.
01:07:19.560 Being cancelled is like where people start calling for you to be removed from your newspaper,
01:07:24.520 not being allowed
01:07:25.720 to write anymore
01:07:27.020 well they do that already
01:07:28.120 yeah
01:07:28.460 but on Twitter
01:07:29.320 that would be a lot better
01:07:30.580 so you should definitely
01:07:31.300 get on it
01:07:31.820 okay thank you
01:07:32.600 yeah
01:07:32.840 so when Rod gets on Twitter
01:07:34.700 follow him on Twitter
01:07:35.700 as always
01:07:36.840 follow us
01:07:37.400 at TriggerPod
01:07:38.060 on all the social media
01:07:38.940 we're going to do
01:07:40.080 a very quick outro
01:07:40.800 and we will see you
01:07:41.740 in a week from now
01:07:42.420 absolutely
01:07:43.140 see you soon guys
01:07:54.520 Thank you.
01:08:24.520 Thank you.
01:08:54.520 Thank you.
01:09:24.520 Thank you.
01:09:54.520 Thank you.
01:10:24.520 Thank you.
01:10:54.520 Thank you.
01:11:24.520 Thank you.
01:11:54.520 You