TRIGGERnometry - Rose of Dawn： Trans Activists Don't Speak for Me

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantin Kissin. And this is a

00:00:09.360 show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing

00:00:14.160 about. At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts. Our brilliant

00:00:19.920 guest this week is a trans YouTuber who talks about trans issues, freedom of speech, and political

00:00:24.640 correctness. Rose of Dawn, welcome to Trigonometry. Thanks for having me on. It's great to have you

00:00:29.200 on the show as you know in recent weeks we've had an interview of ours with posy parker who's a

00:00:34.340 gender critical ex-feminist removed from youtube for hate speech it was then reinstated by the

00:00:39.700 time this video goes out it could have been deleted again uh you know the channel might

00:00:44.920 have been deleted who knows but but if we're still here i know you watched some of that interview

00:00:49.860 and you you mentioned to us that you thought it was ridiculous so let's uh just for anyone who

00:00:54.860 doesn't know you before we get into that just tell everybody who are you how are you where you are

00:00:59.440 how do you happen to be sitting in this chair here today okay so um as it's blatantly obvious

00:01:05.100 i'm a transsexual woman i transitioned about 10 years ago now maybe a bit longer i can't quite

00:01:10.820 remember off the top of my head but um throughout my transition i relied a lot on myself rather than

00:01:16.460 relying on any kind of community so i gained a lot of like individual ideas on what it is to be trans

00:01:22.540 and the kind of self-reliance that should come along with it.

00:01:25.980 I found the trans community in not just the UK but just in general

00:01:30.740 as being one of very weird extremes with a lot of science denial

00:01:36.680 or with a lot of controlling ideas on what it is to be trans

00:01:40.520 in a way where it takes away rights from people like myself.

00:01:44.520 Now, I had been concerned about this for a long time

00:01:47.540 but what really made me start my channel was kind of an argument

00:01:51.200 with a couple of friends a few years ago where they talked about how all genders are valid and

00:01:56.940 i wanted to challenge that and thought well what about people who identify as trigender or moon

00:02:02.240 gender thinking they would push back at that and think like no like obviously people can't

00:02:06.940 self-identify as the moon that's ridiculous only to then only they then defended identifying as

00:02:13.640 the moon it's like that is just as valid as being me and i think really like how do you transition

00:02:19.020 to be the moon how do you transition to be free genders at once and i was just called a transphobe

00:02:24.260 in response and so i started my channel kind of talking about these kinds of issues and a lot of

00:02:30.080 it was also uh motivated by what happened with count dankula um when he was like found guilty

00:02:36.440 of hate speech because i thought with the way that a trans community is this is going to be a real

00:02:41.280 issue as the years go by with people wanting to control what others can actually say about

00:02:47.000 the trans community and as a trans person myself i found that i've been told to shut up or even had

00:02:54.060 posts removed from social media because i'm saying that to be trans is to have gender dysphoria it's

00:03:00.140 to it's not these like multi-gendered hundreds of genders that the narrative is now being pushed

00:03:07.280 so if i can't talk about this what about anyone else what about your average man or woman on the

00:03:12.880 street who has concerns about any of this? What about the radical feminists who I've been told

00:03:18.960 for years were my mortal enemies and wanted me thrown in camps? When I see them trying to hold

00:03:24.480 meetings on this, they get shut down. Some of them have had bomb threats thrown in. Activists

00:03:31.620 will turn up in masks, stopping people from coming in. And they say that they're doing it in the name

00:03:37.220 of love and doing it in my name as well. And whilst I wanted my channel to initially be more

00:03:42.460 about politics, more unlike the centre-right, and more about free speech. Trans issues has become

00:03:48.840 such a strange, hot-topic issue that I don't think I can stay silent on this. It's a strange

00:03:56.880 world that someone like myself is actually considered controversial in the community.

00:04:02.920 Why do you think it's become such a strange, hot-topic issue? Because when you think about it,

00:04:07.100 you know, trans affects a very, very small minority of the population.

00:04:11.100 Well, that's it. In theory, that should be right. We would be looking at only a couple of thousand trans people potentially in the country if we look at what the original definition was, which is someone who has gender dysphoria and has made steps to publicly, socially, medically transition to be that which they identify as.

00:04:32.520 So, for example, myself, I've had to take hormones, I've had various surgeries, I've had to do various legal documents, everything to show society that I'm very serious about the way in which I live.

00:04:43.500 This isn't any kind of fetish. This isn't any kind of weird fantasy of mine. This is just who I am.

00:04:50.420 But the current trans lobby is really lowering the gate for who can actually be trans.

00:04:57.780 we're now seeing people being told well you you know you're a male but you quite like doing this

00:05:05.380 feminine thing or you're neither male or female then you must be a special gender of your own

00:05:10.560 or you'll be getting trans women who are told or people who say they're trans women rather

00:05:15.620 who have no desire to have any kind of surgeries no medical issue no taking of medicine at all

00:05:23.360 no changing their appearance they will grow beards and they will say well this is a woman's beard

00:05:29.360 because i am a woman i'm a biological woman and that's simply not true like a trans woman by

00:05:34.900 definition cannot be a biological female otherwise we wouldn't be transitioning would we

00:05:39.960 and this it's gone from relative obscurity at the start of the decade to now being everywhere like

00:05:47.240 a couple of days ago it was trans day of remembrance and there were trans flags

00:05:52.000 flying everywhere now i have massive problems of trans day of remembrance but i find that it's

00:05:58.260 become like this massive focal issue for everyone when really it should only be affecting a very

00:06:05.660 small percentage of the population and it doesn't seem right to be able to control what everyone can

00:06:10.680 do or say when there's so few people that this actually affects i'm aware that francis has given

00:06:16.120 who's customary death stare.

00:06:18.260 It's not personal to you.

00:06:19.820 He just puts that face on every episode.

00:06:22.000 Every episode we both...

00:06:23.000 It's called South London face.

00:06:24.560 I'm very sorry about it.

00:06:26.020 Just try and just smile for once in your life.

00:06:28.800 That's not how we communicate in South London

00:06:31.160 because if smiling is weakness, but anyway...

00:06:33.420 You're not in South London right now.

00:06:34.760 You're on the internet.

00:06:36.000 You're on the internet right now.

00:06:37.200 I'm in North London, hence enemy territory.

00:06:40.460 However, what you said,

00:06:42.440 you said that you are not a biological female

00:06:45.540 And that is, I mean, that's just the scientific fact, but that is seen as somehow incredibly controversial.

00:06:55.180 Why?

00:06:56.020 I think there's a lot of denialism involved, and in a way there is some fantasy thought that some of these activists have when they all claim,

00:07:05.860 well, because I say I'm a woman, therefore I am biologically a woman,

00:07:09.220 And they will talk about that there are a variety of different sexes as well as a variety of even more genders with new genders being released every week.

00:07:18.200 But I also think there's a bit of control in this as well.

00:07:21.800 The idea that you can have someone with a full on beard tell people that they are a woman.

00:07:27.300 You have to accept them as a woman.

00:07:29.340 They have no desire to get rid of that beard.

00:07:31.080 They have no desire to change their appearance or anything about them so society could see them as a woman.

00:07:37.360 And it does, I know, like, mentioning 1984 is such a tired trope at this point, but it is that very much 2 plus 2 is 5.

00:07:45.840 Like, what you're looking at is a woman, even though this woman is, like, a big, burly man.

00:07:52.180 And you wouldn't know they were a woman unless you were told by someone that you had to refer to them as a woman.

00:07:57.820 That's not the way that I think a transition should go.

00:07:59.900 It's as much as I want to be happy with myself, if I want to be treated in a certain way, I have to understand what is that society expects of me.

00:08:09.660 And if society isn't going to see me in that way, I cannot command them to do so, to do otherwise as authoritarian.

00:08:15.800 And that's where that's the way a lot of these activists are going.

00:08:18.500 They want to be able to control what people say and think and feel about a trans person.

00:08:24.380 That's counterproductive and it makes the whole situation more hostile.

00:08:28.900 it's going to turn people away from even people like myself now obviously i think i'm quite

00:08:34.340 reasonable i don't know about you guys or anyone else but a lot of people do group others into

00:08:41.020 various groups and i don't want to be lumped in with these extremists these people who

00:08:47.440 seem to completely deny reality and are pushing an authoritarian and very extreme agenda so let's

00:08:55.620 explore some of what you just said there because it makes perfect sense to me but there are when i

00:08:59.700 think through the consequences of what you're saying which is that you say you're not biologically

00:09:04.540 a woman that's correct which biologically as francis said is correct right but does that not

00:09:09.780 open the door to people well people will say you're not a woman and you said you're a transsexual woman

00:09:14.640 right so does that mean therefore you're not entitled to the same things that a natural born

00:09:19.940 woman would be are you not opening the door for discrimination against people like yourself

00:09:25.380 by talking about it in that way i think each issue has to be taken um based on what the

00:09:31.320 circumstances are and like as as its own individual circumstance so for something like sports for

00:09:38.480 example i'm quite against trans women being in sport um it would be a different situation if

00:09:43.360 it's someone who has transitioned very young and has been taking hormones and stuff and so they

00:09:49.520 haven't built up the muscle mass that a lot of testosterone can give you so for example when you

00:09:54.360 look at a lot of trans athletes like rachel mckinnon for example i think that people like

00:10:00.140 her should not be competing in women's sports it's very notable that these are athletes who

00:10:05.080 are dominating their you know whatever field that they're in when when they were competing in the

00:10:11.260 same sport when they were males they weren't actually doing quite as well you'll see and so

00:10:16.520 It gives the impression that they're doing it for sports and glory.

00:10:23.020 When it comes to bathrooms, I do think to simply say that all trans women should be banned from bathrooms

00:10:30.300 and that it should only be biological women,

00:10:33.680 I don't think that really addresses any of the nuance of what people like myself are going through.

00:10:39.320 What I think is that it is all individual circumstances,

00:10:43.200 and I understand a lot of what Posey Parker said,

00:10:45.340 But when you get a trans woman who might go into a bathroom who isn't very passable, I know that a lot of people find that problematic, but fuck it.

00:10:54.380 Who doesn't look like a woman is basically for anyone who doesn't know what passable means.

00:10:57.800 Yeah, I mean, my line is always if people put in effort into their transition, at least a little bit of effort, then I will refer to them in that particular way.

00:11:05.500 um i do i can understand why some might well be intimidated by that but i think a lot of trans

00:11:12.340 women aren't these um poorly dressed like massive blokes with weird wigs i i they are some of the

00:11:20.880 most visible but i think that they are a minority i would say that a lot of trans women are more

00:11:25.380 people like maybe myself people like blair white um people who i i've used women's bathrooms like

00:11:32.200 for a very very long time now i've never had any problems in it i don't buy this idea that by me

00:11:38.800 entering a bathroom i'm intimidating people because i've no desire to intimidate people

00:11:44.340 i'm literally going in there just to go to the bathroom and i think when posy parker said that

00:11:49.360 that felt like she was putting a motive onto what our actions are now well the counter argument and

00:11:56.100 i put a lot of counter arguments to her so we're just trying to explore these ideas uh would be

00:12:00.900 that intimidation is an eye of the beholder of course right so uh i personally you look perfectly

00:12:06.840 possible to me i i wouldn't if i didn't know you were trans i wouldn't know you were trans

00:12:10.400 right but uh there are people who may not have the same appearance who may go into a female bathroom

00:12:17.480 and if you're a woman you may feel intimidated by that even if the intention of that person

00:12:22.560 isn't to intimidate do you know what i'm saying i can understand that so this is the issue right

00:12:27.800 because essentially the problem here is that

00:12:30.580 you have to have someone on the door of every female bathroom in the country

00:12:33.980 going, you pass, you don't pass, you have a penis, you don't have a penis.

00:12:36.940 Do you know what I'm saying?

00:12:37.500 And that's simply not going to happen.

00:12:38.980 It's why the whole bathroom issue is almost...

00:12:42.080 Sorry to interrupt.

00:12:42.980 They sound like you're volunteering yourself for that job.

00:12:45.740 I'm up for that.

00:12:47.700 Do it in your Russian accent.

00:12:49.320 Do you have penis?

00:12:49.980 You'll not have...

00:12:50.840 It's a great job.

00:12:54.320 Coming over here, doing the job that British people don't want to do.

00:12:57.800 That would make a hell of a bow for my tendon.

00:13:00.580 You know I have peanuts, I have lollipop.

00:13:27.800 the princess of wells theater get tickets at mirvish.com so yeah you're right you're never

00:13:36.160 going to be able to police um who can go into a bathroom you're never going to be able to have

00:13:40.380 like an id card situation because that would be quite terrifying if you had to carry an id to show

00:13:45.620 that you were trans or that you weren't trans um so in a way it's almost a bit of a non

00:13:51.800 issue and i don't mean that as any disrespect for people who have concerns but it is something where

00:13:58.860 if you have a trans woman who passes for example it's you're not really going to be there isn't a

00:14:03.840 lot that can be done and you can also get biological women who might fall foul of this as

00:14:09.260 well there have i've heard of examples in the united states where they bought in these bathroom

00:14:14.900 laws um where it's actually it's illegal if you're a male to use a female bathroom and biological

00:14:21.140 women have actually been impacted by that and have been told oh you're a biological male even

00:14:25.420 though they're not even though it should be blatantly obvious that they're not it can still

00:14:29.340 happen um it's how does it get resolved well i don't this is it's this is a thing where i probably

00:14:37.540 don't have the answer to it i can't pretend i have all the answers to everything i think that until

00:14:43.120 a lot of the big trans this trans conversation came at the forefront of everything there wasn't

00:14:48.860 much of an issue on this um people would just use the bathrooms and it would be perfectly fine

00:14:53.540 but now we're trying to we're making mountains out of molehills when we're trying to say well

00:14:59.740 because we have beardy over here who's now decided that z feels more comfortable in a women's

00:15:08.000 bathroom so therefore that can happen z can go in there it's this weird we're getting these weird

00:15:13.880 situations which is why people are now asking the question i think i mean the self-idea is really

00:15:20.000 the problem self-idea is the big problem and it's it's something which i think a lot of people were

00:15:25.240 never really prepared for i mean as i mentioned earlier trans issues were never a big thing until

00:15:30.660 just a few years ago and now all of a sudden we've got the multi-gendered nonsense telling people

00:15:35.720 that you have to accept it like um as an example changing rooms is another big one

00:15:40.740 when we have things like m&s um i think there's another there's another lingerie store there's

00:15:46.680 quite a few that just allow people to go in based on how they self-identify now they didn't have

00:15:51.060 these rules when i started using them i just used them and that was fine nobody batted an eyelid

00:15:56.580 everyone was cool with it um but a lot of this has kind of come about since we've had a lot of

00:16:02.640 non-binary people try and pull this off like there's a non-binary activist called travis alabanza

00:16:08.700 who made headlines a few years ago after they decided that they wanted to use the women's

00:16:15.680 changing room in a Topshop. Travis doesn't look like a woman. Travis doesn't even claim to be a

00:16:20.280 woman, but says that they are non-binary and they just so happen to feel more comfortable in the

00:16:26.080 women's. So Travis went into the women's changing room and Topshop's policy did allow them to do

00:16:34.560 that and so even though they got in trouble with some of the staff who were like no you're clearly

00:16:38.960 a bloke like get out of here like no if travis got a massive apology from them and what is non-binary

00:16:47.160 i still can't understand it what is it so non-binary is something which is quite difficult

00:16:52.960 to describe because a lot of people have their own weird definitions of it effectively what it

00:16:57.760 means is you don't identify as male or female and the barrier for entry is basically non-existent

00:17:03.340 this is where the likes of the attack helicopter meme or pierce morgan claiming to be a penguin

00:17:09.040 came about because there is a list of various different genders that you can identify as and

00:17:15.120 be non-binary this can range from being a demi boy or gender queer or gender fluid to genders that

00:17:24.280 sounds incredibly strange when you look at the definition i can't quite remember the name of it

00:17:29.200 but there is a gender which is a hundred percent of one gender and then also a bit of another gender

00:17:34.680 as well there's that's a really greedy gender isn't it there's another one which is like your

00:17:39.900 gender is like water your gender is like space your gender is like fire your own you can only

00:17:45.000 have this particular gender if you are autistic like you so these are like people making up their

00:17:51.780 own ways of of describing themselves and it feels very much like a fad and this goes along with a

00:17:58.540 lot of the pronouns that these people use. I remember being at a party a couple of years ago

00:18:02.800 when someone announced that they had new pronouns and a lot of people applauded them and it felt

00:18:09.620 like a way of getting attention. Nowadays people are a lot less oppressed than they ever have been

00:18:15.200 even if you're like quite a hardline intersectional activist. You can't seriously compare times now

00:18:20.940 that they were 50 years ago and so it's a lot harder to claim that you are a victim. However

00:18:26.100 if you're non-binary and nobody understands you, it's a very easy way to earn some oppression

00:18:32.140 points. And we see a lot of middle-class women doing this. Laurie Penny, for example, claims that

00:18:39.040 she is non-binary and she comes from a very well-off background. You know, she's educated

00:18:45.800 in a prestigious university. She goes all around the world writing. And so just saying that she's

00:18:51.260 a woman isn't enough oppression anymore but she can claim to be non-binary and now you know she

00:18:57.100 is more of a victim so you've got to listen to her more and a lot of it seems like a power play and

00:19:02.260 to simply identify now as trans that gives you that oppression status you're now more oppressed

00:19:07.320 than other groups you therefore get the talking stick so you can control the conversation and

00:19:13.020 people always talk about the oppression that trans people face the you know the fact that

00:19:18.740 You know, there are members of the public who are actively hateful.

00:19:21.980 Absolutely.

00:19:22.580 And I wouldn't pretend to know what it's like to be a trans person.

00:19:27.000 Do you find that people are intolerant on a day-to-day basis?

00:19:30.340 No.

00:19:31.140 Okay.

00:19:31.500 No.

00:19:32.380 I've actually found the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people to not care.

00:19:38.680 And that's exactly what I want.

00:19:40.480 I want to be able to just go outside and do whatever it is I need to do in the day.

00:19:45.820 and i don't get treated any differently to anyone else and that's the experience that i've had even

00:19:51.800 at the earliest times of my transition i'm not saying that i've never had any drama i've had a

00:19:57.920 couple of people throw abuse at me in the past like that's absolutely happened but the overwhelming

00:20:02.740 majority of my experience has been positive that people generally are quite decent and they don't

00:20:09.380 want to hurl abuse like they're not hateful deep down they don't care and that's and so when i hear

00:20:16.100 about how we got record levels of transphobia record levels of abuse i don't see it i don't

00:20:23.340 see it with some of my friends either because i do have other trans friends obviously and they

00:20:29.240 don't suffer this either so i got to ask the question where is this we're hearing about more

00:20:35.020 and more transphobia but where is this coming from like who are the victims in this it's kind

00:20:39.960 of like immigrants as well there's a lot of evidence that people uh if you measure reported

00:20:45.620 hate crimes they're on the rise but if you ask the public if you take a random symbol of the

00:20:51.000 public and you sample them hate crimes have never been lower than they are right now so more people

00:20:55.980 are reporting them but if you ask an ordinary person have you been a victim of a hate crime

00:21:00.680 the statistics are dropping rapidly.

00:21:02.800 So it's this imbalance between people reporting more

00:21:07.180 and actually the level of offence dropping rapidly.

00:21:12.180 Of course, that goes back to Posey Parker,

00:21:14.320 who was then reported to the police based on a hate crime

00:21:18.720 of simply having a disagreement with people online.

00:21:21.540 Well, let's talk about this because, as you know, we had her on the show.

00:21:25.900 The video was taken down because it was hate speech

00:21:28.700 which, quote, caused or incited hatred or violence.

00:21:33.060 What do you make of that, having seen that video?

00:21:35.460 Well, I don't think that Posey was inciting violence at all.

00:21:39.940 Was she inciting hatred?

00:21:41.240 I don't think so.

00:21:42.380 I think inciting hatred is something which is very hard to define.

00:21:46.520 I do think that there is intolerance of trans people, certainly,

00:21:51.640 but I don't think that in itself should be a crime,

00:21:54.560 and I think that people should be allowed to listen to him.

00:21:57.260 whether i agree with what she says or not and there are things in particular with her language

00:22:01.660 that i did disagree with like um when she would use terms talking about like this idea that we're

00:22:09.700 walking to intimidate that we're lying to people pretending pretending like i can disagree with

00:22:15.480 that language but she gains my sympathy once she starts to be silenced for it like she isn't calling

00:22:22.160 for violence she isn't using terms that are like outright slurs as it were it's just more of a

00:22:30.620 walk-around use of language and we're walking on very tricky ground if we're going to stop someone

00:22:35.900 from talking and have to start policing language they use it now if she was calling like trans

00:22:40.760 people like trannies and stuff like that um then that might be a bit of a different situation but

00:22:46.420 she wasn't and she should be free to express her opinions on this just as i should be free to

00:22:52.340 disagree with her one of the key issues that sorry no no no no no no because i was going to say now

00:22:57.660 we were talking about uh hate speech and incitement to violence or a number of trans activists who

00:23:02.620 would say that misgendering somebody is a is hate speech and incitement to violence and is itself

00:23:08.260 an act of violence i mean no yes words are an act of violence of course it's not i and i've seen

00:23:16.860 i've seen it as well when people will suggest that yeah to misgender someone is indeed an act

00:23:23.380 of violence of course it's not it's not violent you can say it's rude you can say it's disrespectful

00:23:29.900 and again that goes into like the kind of person that we're talking about like i would certainly

00:23:35.400 say it's disrespectful to refer to someone like Blair White as a man but it would be is it as

00:23:41.640 disrespectful to refer to someone who again I know I keep on mentioning the beard reference but I've

00:23:46.680 come across a lot of so-called trans women who have beards is it disrespectful to them like

00:23:52.360 it's society-wise probably not and a lot you're really talking about passing there aren't you

00:23:58.000 Again, yes, I am.

00:23:59.880 But it's not even if you were to misgender myself or Blair White, it's not hate speech.

00:24:06.260 It's not violence against us.

00:24:07.960 It's just rude.

00:24:09.220 And like surely people have the freedom to be rude.

00:24:13.160 Like I can take if someone's going to misgender me, I can just walk away from that conversation.

00:24:18.220 I can choose to remove myself from that and I don't have to deal with that person.

00:24:22.340 But that's very different from calling the state in to try and silence them.

00:24:26.020 and so i don't want to talk to this person therefore nobody else can because one day that

00:24:30.980 will that power could be used against me and it probably was in that kind of situation because a

00:24:35.860 lot of these people i do have agreement with and i but it's not violence it's misgendering isn't

00:24:42.100 violence using the wrong pronouns isn't violence and especially when we have the non-binary elements

00:24:48.460 into it when we have people saying that they want to identify as whatever and use these magical

00:24:54.100 pronouns that you've never really heard before have never been a part of our of any kind of

00:25:00.240 dialogue but they're not being forced on you and you're expected to use those pronouns and if you

00:25:05.140 don't you're committing a hate crime that's that's kind of what they're pushing for when they when

00:25:10.920 they try and compare using wrong pronouns using misgendering as an act of violence i really hope

00:25:18.240 youtube take down this video that we're doing because then we can accuse them of transphobia

00:25:22.560 that would be brilliant but but it's it's interesting what you're saying do you think

00:25:27.780 that this actually damages the trans course yeah absolutely it paints the image that we are

00:25:33.460 irrational that we are incredibly aggressive that we don't have any kind of critical thinking

00:25:40.480 onto who we are and that and most importantly that we are perpetual victims like when i started my

00:25:46.760 transition years ago, it didn't go off to the easiest start. I lost a lot of friends. I had

00:25:52.380 some difficulties with my family, but was able to persevere and get over it. As a result, I've now

00:25:58.820 made an incredible life for myself. I have a fantastic group of friends. My relationship with

00:26:06.080 my parents has never been stronger. I have a good job. I've been able to take myself out and do very

00:26:11.740 interesting things throughout the world. And I've started my YouTube channel, which has really taken

00:26:15.460 off i'm in no way a victim and i hate the assertion that trans people are being victims and that's one

00:26:21.440 of the narratives that this is pushing that we are these weak pathetic individuals that have to have

00:26:28.140 others nanny us and you have to respect us and if you don't then you know you could cause our

00:26:33.100 suicides and you could also then be thrown in jail you could be removed from social media you could

00:26:38.080 lose your job and i then when you've got your typical layman on the street why would they want

00:26:44.760 to interact with us if their impression of us is that we are so weak that we have to call

00:26:50.260 the police every time where our feelings are hurt like it's it makes us look pathetic it makes us

00:26:59.820 look authoritarian and i'm an individualist i don't like groupthink um ideologies why i'm very

00:27:07.020 much against the likes of fascism and communism communism in particular is bizarrely um prevalent

00:27:13.220 within the trans community um but it is um since we're defining things one of the issues where

00:27:21.360 i disagree with what posy said the most was probably around gender dysphoria because

00:27:25.520 i don't remember the exact words that she used but essentially i think she was quite unwilling to

00:27:30.540 acknowledge that it's it happens yeah like what is gender dysphoria now so gender dysphoria is

00:27:36.300 something which is admittedly quite hard to explain and understand um it is effectively

00:27:42.040 a discomfort between your real biological sex and the way in which your mind feels as though

00:27:49.080 it should have been wired now there is currently no real answer as to what causes gender dysphoria

00:27:55.360 um there are various different theories from the the way in which your brain is wired to

00:28:01.600 social raising but i would say certainly the latter doesn't ring true to me but effectively

00:28:06.660 if that is what is a transsexual person that they have gender dysphoria and so you transition as a

00:28:12.860 way of treating it and it's recognized as a medical condition it is however there are trans activists

00:28:17.900 who are trying to get that removed and that is a terrifying prospect for me i have relied on

00:28:24.040 medical treatment in particular through the nhs as for a lot of my transition um apart from my face

00:28:30.480 i've had like gender reassignment surgery i've had my hormones i've had various different therapies

00:28:34.540 or related to it and um that so it's the medical aspect is certainly real um this is another point

00:28:42.640 where i conflict a lot with trans activists because they think that anyone can just choose

00:28:48.220 to be trans whereas my argument is and always really has been that we are we can't really

00:28:55.120 control who we are but we have this condition we treat it by transitioning and yeah we've put a

00:29:03.680 border on the walls a border on gender but they want to open it and simply declare that anyone

00:29:09.700 can identify as whatever they want and therefore they are the same as me i've had to go through a

00:29:14.520 lot to go through where to where i am and i think really that should be respected i think india

00:29:20.240 willoughby actually said the same thing when she was on the show she said the demon demedicalization

00:29:25.260 of trans is a problem um let me ask you this and it's quite an unpleasant question for me to ask

00:29:31.320 But people do say this, so I just want to get your take on it.

00:29:34.920 What about the argument that people sometimes feel like they're in the wrong body, they've got too many hands, right?

00:29:41.900 They've got two hands.

00:29:43.040 They should really have only one hand.

00:29:45.360 People say this, right?

00:29:47.140 I'm not saying this from my perspective.

00:29:49.100 I'm just putting the counter argument that some people say that being trans is like a medical condition that is in your head.

00:29:59.220 but if someone came in and said well i've got too many hands doctor please chop off

00:30:03.860 one hand and one foot and one ear we wouldn't go with that right well not really no like that's

00:30:12.660 just seems to be some like why are they doing that what is the motivation behind someone wanting to

00:30:17.560 just say well i identify as a one-handed person rather than like what when i do a transition i

00:30:26.100 don't know what like i'm not really doing any kind of harm to myself by doing it whereas a self

00:30:30.580 mutilation is actually stopping you from being able to perform certain tasks like for example

00:30:34.720 if you lose your hand you can't really do anything like that you know what i mean um i

00:30:39.100 we know we do always hear this argument of like well we can self-identify when people pull up

00:30:44.800 these you know trans abled people who self-identify as being disabled and we might actually take steps

00:30:53.660 to to cripple themselves and to to follow that now i've that's not a subject i've really looked

00:31:00.880 into all i can comment on is what the science is on being transsexual person yeah which i know that

00:31:06.700 that whilst there is no conclusive answer there is certainly something there and it's certainly

00:31:10.640 enough to be recognized uh but i would say that if you're the other thing is is not really changing

00:31:17.860 the way in which people have to perceive you if that makes sense yeah um you know a person with

00:31:25.220 one hand is not demanding to be recognized as a new as a different whatever yeah in a way um i

00:31:31.400 would say that they are i wouldn't really see a lot of correlation there um like i've only really

00:31:36.400 considered the actual pathway which i've had to go through i would say just simply comparing me

00:31:41.980 to someone who has chopped off their hand is a bit disrespectful.

00:31:45.400 Yeah.

00:31:45.980 And where do you stand on another argument Posey had,

00:31:50.240 which was the thin end of the wedge?

00:31:51.740 We're saying, well, you know, if, you know,

00:31:55.400 somebody has to acknowledge that you are a woman

00:31:58.200 and that they have to acknowledge and use certain pronouns,

00:32:01.000 eventually it means a sliding scale,

00:32:03.140 and then we get trans women in Olympic sports

00:32:05.960 and, you know, obliteration of women's spaces, etc., etc., etc.

00:32:09.460 Well, it's a slippery slope, fancy, basically.

00:32:11.980 um not everything that's taking a very black and white view of the world

00:32:17.080 um i can certainly understand concerns around that for example as we mentioned earlier about

00:32:23.120 trans athletes and i think that there are some issues where trans people might actually have

00:32:28.220 to kind of take a step back but it should never be an all or nothing situation it should never be

00:32:34.020 a case of oh either you know we can compete in the olympics or we can't even use bathrooms

00:32:39.480 Like that to me, that's quite an extreme response, whatever way you are on that scale.

00:32:48.180 I think that there are some instances where trans women can back off.

00:32:53.060 Example being like rape crisis centers.

00:32:56.520 There's one in Vancouver, which had its funding pulled because a trans woman basically contested the fact that they didn't allow trans women in there.

00:33:05.040 And this is a center which had a lot of vulnerable women in it.

00:33:08.320 um you know people who have gone through a lot um of abuse for by males and i've seen

00:33:15.680 these photos of this trans woman so to speak who you know very very low effort like no effort at

00:33:21.460 all basically like a guy but was allowed into a rape crisis center taking photos naked in the

00:33:25.940 bathroom um so this kind of thing does happen and i think around very vulnerable people

00:33:30.940 there might have to be a little bit more of a barrier there but i would say that a bathroom

00:33:36.500 or changing room is very different to like a space for vulnerable a truly vulnerable people

00:33:42.840 okay and it's it's a sensible you know it's a sensible point you're making that we need to take

00:33:47.860 every you know situation and judge it on its own merits it has to be taken like that you can't

00:33:52.780 simply push that all trans women are automatically women and we're therefore biological women because

00:33:57.660 we simply identify as such like there's the the whole debate requires so much nuance my main

00:34:05.720 concern with one of my biggest concerns with the way the debate is going is nuances going through

00:34:10.280 the window it's either trans women or biological women and therefore um look at big birther over

00:34:17.800 there with a pint of tertlies that's a biological woman there or it's the case of like no these are

00:34:23.700 all like mutilated freaks who have huge problems and it's cruel to even refer to them as a woman

00:34:30.840 So I've seen that argument be used by gender critical feminists at times that referring to me with female pronouns or anything like that is an act of cruelty.

00:34:39.080 And it's simply an act of violence on them.

00:34:42.460 If I was to even ask them, not demand that they do it, but simply ask them to do so is considered violence to them.

00:34:48.320 So there are two very strange extremes in this debate.

00:34:52.520 And, you know, we always talk about, you know, the LGBTQI and all the rest of it.

00:34:57.620 And from the outside, it's seen as this big, homogenous group.

00:35:01.520 Everybody walks around with rainbow flags.

00:35:03.260 Everybody's happy and loving all the rest of it.

00:35:05.140 What I didn't realize is that there's an enormous tension between the trans community and the lesbian community.

00:35:12.720 Could you just delve a little bit into that and then why there is such tension between the two?

00:35:16.800 Yeah, so one of the reasons for that is with the main prominence of trans people in these spaces over the last couple of years,

00:35:25.780 and especially with the mantra of trans women are biological women because that's what they mean

00:35:31.280 when they say trans women are women not just that we are socially considered women but we are

00:35:35.520 biological women there's the notion that turning down a trans woman um for like sexual purposes

00:35:43.440 or whatever is a transphobic action now this is something which does happen when you have a trans

00:35:51.600 like where you'll have like a trans woman asking the lesbian out and the lesbian says no

00:35:55.320 and the trans would be oh you're a fucking transphobe in fact this happened to a friend of

00:35:59.420 mine um she met a trans woman wasn't actually aware that she was trans until they properly

00:36:04.980 like met up realized she had a penis said i'm not interested in that she was considered

00:36:10.120 transphobic for doing so and she's someone who is in very much involved in this very woke um

00:36:16.360 like queer lefty space and you know she was considered attractive for saying that so you get

00:36:23.440 this like conflection where lesbians and gay men as well are being told that they have to

00:36:29.660 accept trans people as potential partners and to not do so is considered an act of hate

00:36:35.120 and that can be a very intimidating thing when you've been very much involved in this queer

00:36:40.740 community for years and people in the queer community rarely venture out of it and so you're

00:36:46.340 out being told, by the way, you now have to be open to sleeping with these people. If you don't,

00:36:51.460 then you're on your own into that hateful Tory Trump filled world. And so they don't know what

00:36:58.320 to do. And when they do speak out against it, they are considered that, you know, they'll be

00:37:03.820 called TERFs, they'll be called, you know, like have all sorts of abuse thrown at them. Now,

00:37:08.180 some of these people are genuinely transphobic. I've come across quite a few who are, but a lot

00:37:12.960 of them aren't a lot of them just have concerns and they're still branded as figures of hate

00:37:17.960 even when what they're saying is just look i'm just attracted to other women biological women

00:37:24.340 what's wrong with that like you know we've gone for years of fighting for like gay equality and

00:37:30.780 the idea that you know it's perfectly fine for a man to sleep with another man or a woman sleep

00:37:34.680 with another woman and now all of a sudden that's being told that you're being transphobic for doing

00:37:40.360 that like that's utterly bizarre like it's the same way when you see like because i've seen

00:37:44.860 a couple of straight people be accused of being transphobic for not sleeping with trans people so

00:37:49.640 it doesn't just impact the the lesbians or the gays it also impacts everyone it's kind of

00:37:55.340 straightforward though i mean if you're a lesbian you're not you're by definition not attracted to

00:37:59.540 people with penises yeah and if if you're a straight man again you're not attracted to people

00:38:05.100 i mean i so they're basically saying that you're bigger for having any sexual preference

00:38:10.340 Yeah, in fact, Rachel McKinnon, who I mentioned earlier, she's a trans...

00:38:15.220 Hugely successful cyclist.

00:38:16.580 Very successful.

00:38:17.080 That's incredible.

00:38:18.020 Oh, so good.

00:38:19.320 So she did a bizarre thread on Twitter.

00:38:24.500 By the way, I feel guilty criticizing Rachel McKinnon because the Russians have been doing this for a long time.

00:38:29.340 In fact, you pioneered it.

00:38:32.240 So she did a weird thread a couple of months ago where she actually said that sexual preferences are immoral

00:38:37.340 and that you should be open to having fun with anyone of any gender or sex or whatever.

00:38:45.500 But the only acceptable sexuality is pansexuality, which is like bisexuality,

00:38:51.140 but you would also sleep with people who identify as chairs.

00:38:56.620 I like it. If you're straight, you're now right wing.

00:39:00.700 One of the things I talked to, I know you were into it by Carl Sargon of a cat recently,

00:39:06.100 and i talked to him about this i mean one of the things that seems to me to be happening is

00:39:09.800 and i with him and i talked about this if you were to poll the general public

00:39:13.880 on this issue and you were to say is someone who has transitioned from being male to being female

00:39:20.600 a biological woman i think you know i'm pretty comfortable that it would be in the high 90s of

00:39:27.420 people who would say no to that well of course because you've told them this person was biologically

00:39:30.980 male and they've now transitioned to be a woman right like you don't change biology when you

00:39:34.680 transition you do everything you can to fit that biology and make yourself as comfortable as you

00:39:39.420 can be but transition is never 100 perfect and yet if i were to go on national television or radio or

00:39:46.740 write a piece in the newspaper saying a person who's transitioned is not biologically the sex

00:39:53.540 which they claim to now be or the gender which they claim to now be you you would you would be

00:39:59.460 destroyed overnight yeah so essentially we now live in a situation where the opinion of a tiny

00:40:07.060 minority of people is the one that is allowed to be heard and to be spoken and the opinion of the

00:40:14.900 overwhelming majority of the public is the one that is not allowed to be spoken and not allowed

00:40:20.720 to be heard yeah is that accurate i would say so yeah like it's controversial i've even seen trans

00:40:26.780 women be banned from Twitter simply for saying that they're biological males. They're not calling

00:40:32.500 other people biological males. They're simply saying, look, I'm a trans woman. OK, I see myself

00:40:37.120 as a woman, but I am biologically male. Someone pretty much said that exact message and she got

00:40:42.400 banned for it. I've known countless trans women who that has happened to. So even we can't say

00:40:49.100 it. Even we're not allowed to say it. And what do you think are the long term implications of that?

00:40:54.820 I think it gives a very misleading idea of what we are. I think it makes it look as though we are a lot more unhinged. We really deny the reality that it also sidelines biological women and biological men as well, because it says that a man's issue is no longer about testicular cancer or a woman's issue is no longer about pregnancy.

00:41:19.280 and you see this when you have these more intersectional more progressive women's rights

00:41:25.200 groups in particular where they'll be considered talking about periods is like it's problematic if

00:41:31.060 it's if you've got trans women in the room because not all women have periods not all women can get

00:41:35.060 pregnant it's the same you see it with men's groups as well where not all men have you know

00:41:40.160 like you know some men have periods some men can give birth and there was a weird i can't even

00:41:45.800 remember the name of the group there was a group a couple of days ago that was saying like yes men

00:41:49.260 can get pregnant.

00:41:50.700 ACLU was.

00:41:51.400 Yes.

00:41:51.960 The great thing about that is, you know, if men could get pregnant, they'd do it better.

00:41:58.680 We'd still smash a gender player.

00:42:00.860 Absolutely.

00:42:01.600 We'd be 18% better at being pregnant.

00:42:03.820 Yeah.

00:42:04.720 Well, it's just, it's clown world, isn't it?

00:42:09.040 Yeah.

00:42:09.720 It's absolute clown world.

00:42:11.420 And it's become that for everyone.

00:42:13.580 And it's why I find it such a strange issue that is now at the forefront of everything

00:42:17.320 we talk about.

00:42:18.040 it's a small group of extremists who have successfully infiltrated and effectively

00:42:25.000 kicked me out of what should be my own community and they're now effectively taking on the world

00:42:29.840 and everyone's bending the knee to them they are acting as though they're some sort of weird

00:42:34.040 authority to these like again like they when even when you look at a lot of the issues that they

00:42:39.440 campaign on in the name of trans rights a lot of them have nothing to do with being trans like

00:42:44.260 as an example the nus national union of students their trans group has um fighting for such trans

00:42:50.980 issues as prison abolition like which is convenient for their former um trans officer who was suspended

00:42:59.140 amidst serious allegations of gross sexual misconduct for whipping for whipping their dick

00:43:03.940 out at work and has faced more serious allegations afterwards and i always wanted to mention that

00:43:10.880 Yeah, because the NUS is, there's a serious point, the NUS is purposely burying it.

00:43:14.800 Right.

00:43:15.040 So you have someone who's been accused of sexual abuse way up in the NUS,

00:43:20.300 and the NUS is completely shutting down any discussion of it,

00:43:23.380 and they had access to vulnerable people.

00:43:27.060 Right.

00:43:27.640 But going back on...

00:43:28.760 Has there been a court case about this?

00:43:30.340 I'm aware that it is a police matter.

00:43:32.800 All right.

00:43:33.140 However, this has been going on for way more than a year at this point,

00:43:37.620 and the NUS is simply, as far as I'm aware,

00:43:40.100 this person's still being paid by the nus oh wow yep uh jess bradley look look them up i have to

00:43:47.700 say them but going back to the point i was trying to make they campaign that a lot of these are

00:43:54.580 hardline communists they're ones who put in marxist ideology into their um into their

00:44:00.900 conferences but they do it in the name of people like me and then they say well if you're right

00:44:06.440 How can you be right wing and be trans?

00:44:08.820 How can you vote Tory and be trans?

00:44:10.740 And I'm like, well, because I'm an individual, I have my own political beliefs.

00:44:14.220 I consider myself a classic liberal.

00:44:16.280 I am not in any way a collectivist.

00:44:19.740 But with the way that identity politics is, you have so many people who kidnap it for their own political gains.

00:44:28.140 And we're seeing that more obviously than any other group with the trans group.

00:44:32.720 like we have there are and there are actual like antifa activists within a lot of trans

00:44:38.560 organizations and everyone's perfectly fine with that we know you've been waiting and your full

00:44:44.140 great outdoors comedy festival lineup is here on september 11th through 13th at arendale park

00:44:50.120 comedy superstars john mulaney with nick kroll mike burpiglia and fred armison adam ray is dr

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00:45:02.040 more hit the stage three nights five shows huge laughs september 11th through 13th buy tickets

00:45:08.840 now at great outdoors comedy festival.com well francis is a very tolerant and open accepting

00:45:15.300 person but when you said you're voting tory you fucking lost him typical lefty

00:45:22.200 evil get rid

00:45:24.860 it does seem

00:45:28.580 like you use the phrase clown world

00:45:30.420 it just seems that we're just descending

00:45:32.420 into lunacy and

00:45:34.280 so you look at you know what's happening

00:45:36.480 with you know the lgd

00:45:37.840 gbtq you're fucked me

00:45:40.160 you got them wrong

00:45:42.640 and i forgot

00:45:44.420 plus as well do you think

00:45:46.240 part of this is the fact

00:45:48.200 that we've made such

00:45:50.220 huge strides in equality we've made such huge strides in tolerance you know where you know of

00:45:54.860 course there's still homophobia of course there is but compared to even 30 years ago you know we

00:46:00.600 live in so much more of a fairer society that really we don't have as much to rail against as

00:46:07.900 before so we need to find smaller and smaller things to get upset about yeah um absolutely

00:46:12.980 we have progressed so much even in my own lifetime i mean hell when i first transitioned

00:46:19.040 or 10 years ago it was a completely different landscape to what it is now now there is there's

00:46:24.220 actual acceptance a lot of people will accept me for who i am they will treat me just as they would

00:46:29.400 treat anyone else things have never been better but you're right we have to always find other ways

00:46:35.220 of making ourselves victims there has to be something we can rail against especially with

00:46:40.080 all of these like kind of like interest groups within like the oppression olympics they have to

00:46:46.080 be oppressed by something otherwise they're completely obsolete so this is how you find

00:46:50.060 problems like say man spreading for example like that's not really a problem that's not really

00:46:55.580 comparable to look how progressive we are we're fucking smashing it we're taking as little space

00:47:01.760 as possible to give you as a woman the opportunity to speak your mind and feel comfortable in this

00:47:07.120 space absolutely yeah so i was just gonna say we're crossing our legs and therefore crushing

00:47:12.060 our own genitals yes that's yeah that's the level of progressivism you see on this show

00:47:16.980 but yeah like we've we've moved on so lots of so much that we are picking and choosing like

00:47:22.580 all the tiniest little issues and like again the trans movement isn't the only one that's doing it

00:47:28.460 you name an intersectional movement they're doing it as well but i notice it the most with the trans

00:47:34.140 one where it is all of these weird issues like they keep on demanding trans rights and like i

00:47:40.200 was at a trans pride uh march a couple of months ago filming for my youtube channel and one of the

00:47:46.380 guys on a microphone remember him shouting like when i say we have you say trans rights and then

00:47:50.940 he realized straight away what he said and he was like no no no no no we don't have rights

00:47:54.980 and i was thinking what what rights do we not have what what what am i i'm not allowed to do

00:48:01.280 that anybody else will be allowed to do like i cannot think of and and the only things that

00:48:07.160 that could well be is like oh well you're not allowed to compete in the olympics like well

00:48:10.380 i've got no desire to compete in the olympics i've got no desire to join like a women's board

00:48:15.180 or anything so what else is that really to accomplish so they have to find all of these

00:48:21.280 pointless arguments and fights and the actors though we're we're in the dark ages almost and

00:48:29.060 it's never been worse i i know i know you say that you personally don't want to compete in

00:48:34.800 Olympics but I think that's where a lot of the complications

00:48:36.920 come in because there are people who want

00:48:38.880 to sit on a board, there are people who want to be

00:48:40.820 on an always women's short list

00:48:42.260 and this is where it's a very

00:48:44.860 as you said it's a very complicated and very nuanced

00:48:46.840 issue and unfortunately we've run

00:48:48.860 out of time so we don't

00:48:50.980 have the time to explore it, perhaps another

00:48:52.780 time we can get you back on the show and talk

00:48:54.800 more about it but for now our final

00:48:56.980 question is always the same question

00:48:58.560 What's the one thing that we're not talking

00:49:01.080 about as a society that we really

00:49:02.980 need to be talking about?

00:49:04.800 We really need to be talking, well, this has to be related to transition.

00:49:08.160 No, not at all, not at all.

00:49:09.740 Okay, so one thing we're really not talking about enough is the rise of the far left within society in general.

00:49:16.380 What we're seeing, in particular with the Labour Party at the moment,

00:49:19.760 when we've got members, former members of the Communist Party being engaged in it,

00:49:25.040 that they are becoming a lot more authoritarian and nobody is questioning this.

00:49:29.240 We're too fixated on the far right, which is, of course, a concern.

00:49:32.120 but the current way in which our society is going is almost down a dark path i mean we're

00:49:38.920 pretty close i don't know whether this is going to go up before the election or afterwards but

00:49:41.980 you know we're quite close to a point where jeremy corbyn could be in power by the time

00:49:45.940 this comes up i don't know if we're that close to be honest i know what you mean it's just a joke

00:49:53.180 about him being unelectable that's all but yeah i it's i mean i i have a lot of concerns with

00:49:59.800 things like freedom of speech as well i mean freedom of speech is certainly something we're

00:50:03.340 not addressing enough but right now i think the far left is is something which is on the rise

00:50:07.960 like absolutely be concerned about the far right but look at everywhere that socialism has ever

00:50:14.400 been tried like everywhere it's been a catastrophic failure except venezuela

00:50:18.480 well it's not real not real socialism was it well there is no real socialism unless it's

00:50:26.740 successful, which is never done. Anyway, Rose of Dawn, thank you so much for coming on. We will

00:50:32.320 put a link to your YouTube channel in the description of the video. Thanks for watching.

00:50:35.740 We'll see you again in a week with another brilliant episode. Take care. See you next week.

TRIGGERnometry - December 15, 2019

Rose of Dawn： Trans Activists Don't Speak for Me

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