TRIGGERnometry - August 29, 2021


S5： Exposing the Race Industry - Dr Rakib Ehsan


Episode Stats

Length

59 minutes

Words per Minute

180.12485

Word Count

10,676

Sentence Count

421

Misogynist Sentences

7

Hate Speech Sentences

25


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Going back to this idea of multiculturalism, I think there's that, it's almost like politicians, they have a greater emphasis on what's different about us, and they celebrate that.
00:00:09.380 But they don't understand the complications that come with diversity.
00:00:12.840 Because ultimately, if you have, if there's a great deal of cultural diversity, but you have that lack of, that sort of that unifying set of values, then you can, you almost have a balkanization process.
00:00:25.640 And I think that's quite problematic because if there's a lack of social trust in a diverse society such as ours, you almost lose public support for ambitious collectivist sort of endeavours such as the all-encompassing welfare state.
00:00:46.760 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.
00:00:51.320 I'm Constantine Kissin.
00:00:52.380 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.
00:00:58.320 Our brilliant guest today is a political writer and the author of an upcoming book called
00:01:02.280 Manufactured Grievance, which we're both really looking forward to reading.
00:01:05.980 Dr. Aheba Hassan, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:01:07.680 Thank you for having me.
00:01:08.660 It's a pleasure to have you on.
00:01:09.740 I've been meaning to have you on for a while.
00:01:11.720 For anyone who doesn't know who you are, and we've been reading all your stuff and it's
00:01:14.940 absolutely fascinating, tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are, what
00:01:18.700 is it that brings you to be sitting here talking to us?
00:01:21.240 So, as you say, I'm a political writer. I'm the author of the upcoming book, Manufactured Grievance.
00:01:27.940 In terms of my life, I was born in Hammersmith, but I moved to Luton at the age of one. So I've
00:01:33.360 lived there for the past three decades. And I'm particularly interested in social cohesion,
00:01:39.060 how to strengthen relations between the state and citizens, and just generally,
00:01:43.640 how do we create a more cohesive country? And how do we enhance democratic stability in Britain?
00:01:49.400 And you've written a lot about race relations and the commentary that we've now seen about race.
00:01:55.400 And there seems to be this interesting dynamic that's happened certainly in my lifetime in this country, which is kind of similar to your 20, 25 years, whatever, 30 years, where like the society seems to be making progress on the issues of race.
00:02:09.800 And yet the conversation seems to be the opposite, like things are getting worse all the time.
00:02:14.700 What have you made of the last kind of period of time during which we've seen that happen?
00:02:18.960 Well, I think in terms of Britain, I almost feel that there's been an importation of US
00:02:24.460 racial politics. And I think you see things like a BLM demonstration in London where people are
00:02:30.800 chanting, don't shoot British police officers, even though the vast majority are unarmed,
00:02:36.020 and they support that model of policing. And I do think there has been that brainless importation of
00:02:41.780 racial grievance politics in the United States, and that's being imported by the British
00:02:45.820 identitarian left I think in recent times we have seen an explosion of racial grievance politics
00:02:51.640 I talk about the industrial complex the grievance industrial complex where you have a sector-wide
00:02:59.340 orchestrated effort to present Britain in a way that I simply don't recognize and you say you
00:03:06.960 simply don't recognize it and you grew up in Luton which was you know from what I read seems
00:03:12.900 to be a hotbed of racial tension at certain points in the 90s?
00:03:17.040 Well, I think Luton's had its fair share of problems.
00:03:19.860 I think it's the birthplace of the English Defence League.
00:03:23.280 So Tommy Robinson, for our American viewers,
00:03:25.520 that's where all that sort of stuff is happening.
00:03:26.960 And it's also had its fair share of issues with Islamist extremism.
00:03:30.660 Tensions not just between the white population
00:03:33.880 and the non-white population,
00:03:35.320 but also tensions between different ethnic minorities,
00:03:37.480 something that's not really discussed too much
00:03:39.080 when we talk about race relations in Britain.
00:03:41.880 But also with Luton, you have that tolerant majority,
00:03:46.220 people who are ultimately more interested in who you are as a person,
00:03:49.980 what your attitudes are, what you bring to the table as a character.
00:03:55.380 And I think that's generally the argument I make about England.
00:03:57.680 I think you do have these hard left identitarians
00:04:00.040 who really see the worst in England.
00:04:02.160 Then you have hard right ethno-nationalists
00:04:04.720 who ultimately frame English identity in terms of race and ancestry.
00:04:08.200 but in reality you have the mainstream when they're asked about Englishness what Englishness
00:04:13.940 means to them they focus they ultimately frame it in more civic terms it's about your social
00:04:19.040 contribution how do you contribute towards the well-being of your local community things such
00:04:23.820 as paying taxes towards the funding of public services and national security so you can see
00:04:28.680 that there is definitely a potential for a civic Englishness and I think these sort of these
00:04:33.500 grossly simplistic caricatures of england are very unfair and you say they're very unfair and
00:04:39.600 it was very interesting in 2020 when we saw that explosion of race-based politics the discussion
00:04:46.320 the anger the recriminations do you think that's gone away or do you think it's still bubbling
00:04:51.760 under the surface i think it's definitely there i think it's still there i think the issue is that
00:04:57.420 for too long i think when we're looking at england in particular people have just thought that oh
00:05:02.560 English, we don't really want to touch it as a concept, perhaps because they felt there was this
00:05:06.540 cultural appropriation of the St George's flag, for example, by far right organisations such as
00:05:11.540 the English Defence League. But the reality of the matter is, if you don't talk about those
00:05:16.120 kind of things, there's a vacuum, and radical ideologues will exploit that. I think in terms of
00:05:21.060 when we're looking more recently, when you look at the Labour Party, more broadly, the contemporary
00:05:27.020 British left. I think that there's been a tendency to portray Britain in a way that even people who
00:05:34.600 consider themselves to be anti-racist, it's alienating. I don't think they see Britain more
00:05:40.740 generally as a kind of society where it's full to the brim with reactionary throwbacks, people who
00:05:47.740 are deeply uncomfortable with demographic diversity. They might be uncomfortable with
00:05:51.840 cultural diversity, which is obviously very different to demographic diversity. And they may
00:05:56.500 feel that there's certain practices in Britain which are very much against liberal democratic
00:06:02.340 values. I don't think that's controversial at all. Can you delve into that a little bit more,
00:06:06.820 the cultural diversity versus demographic diversity and what you're talking about,
00:06:11.240 what you're hinting at there? Because I think there's an interesting piece in there, but you're
00:06:14.920 being a little bit vague about it. So give us some more specifics. No, I'll definitely, I'll
00:06:18.400 flesh it out in more detail. So I think in terms of demographic diversity, when we're looking at
00:06:22.200 the degree to which Britain is religiously diverse, racially diverse and ethnically diverse.
00:06:27.240 That's very different to cultural diversity. Now, if you see that when we look at Brexit,
00:06:31.920 for example, one of the strongest predictors for someone voting to leave the European Union
00:06:36.320 was if they had a negative view of cultural diversity. Now, that doesn't mean that they're
00:06:40.220 fed up with all the brown and black faces in the United Kingdom. It might be the fact that they
00:06:44.760 feel that there's a lack of discussion on shared values. They may feel that there's cultural
00:06:49.320 practices which are not in keeping with what they consider to be traditional British liberal
00:06:54.060 democratic principles. They may feel that principles such as democratic choice, the rule of law,
00:07:02.140 these kind of things are being eroded as a result of certain cultural practices.
00:07:08.360 So you can see that there's a big difference between being uncomfortable with demographic
00:07:13.060 diversity, which I think the majority of British people aren't, but they may have reservations
00:07:17.700 over the degree to which we celebrate difference
00:07:20.060 and how little we discuss things such as shared values,
00:07:25.060 articulating an inclusive patriotism,
00:07:27.100 or just more generally generating a feeling
00:07:30.080 or a sense of common purpose.
00:07:32.480 That's a really interesting point, isn't it?
00:07:34.540 Because I do feel that that's been happening.
00:07:37.760 I don't know if it's happening in wider society,
00:07:40.460 particularly if you go outside of the big cities.
00:07:42.860 I do think there's a very strong sense of social cohesion.
00:07:45.420 But if you were to watch, let's say, the BBC or other mainstream media, the hyper focus on the things that we're all different in seems to be extreme.
00:07:57.240 It seems to be that that is the only thing anyone's talking about.
00:08:00.620 And almost there was a period of time, particularly, I think, around Brexit, when the idea of British values, which is what you're really talking about, was it's almost like if you talk to someone, you say, well, what are British values?
00:08:11.040 They'd run away as if you're trying to recruit them for the EDL.
00:08:13.880 Do you know what I mean?
00:08:14.360 Yeah, no, I think so. And I think that we need to have these kind of discussions, because I think with an ethnically, racially and religiously diverse society, you need to have that common moral cultural standard to tie those different groups together. And I think that in recent times, I think there's been an absence of moral political leadership on those kind of issues.
00:08:34.560 But do you sometimes think, looking back at that outburst in 2020,
00:08:40.800 that, okay, what the protesters didn't have,
00:08:43.760 they weren't right about the issue,
00:08:45.460 but that anger has to have come from somewhere.
00:08:47.920 It couldn't have just come from nothing.
00:08:49.720 If that protest hadn't struck a chord in some way,
00:08:53.160 would it have existed?
00:08:54.920 Do you see what I'm getting at here?
00:08:56.020 There must be something else that people feel angry or frustrated about.
00:09:00.320 Yeah, I think that in certain ethnic minorities,
00:09:03.560 there is a high level of political disaffection.
00:09:06.520 I think that's particularly the case
00:09:07.760 with British-born people of Caribbean origin.
00:09:11.640 I think, for example, the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence
00:09:14.940 and then the spying of his family
00:09:17.200 by the London Metropolitan Police, the undercover spying.
00:09:20.340 That thing, that kind of thing, it leaves...
00:09:24.000 It casts a long shadow.
00:09:26.220 And I think we have to really look at how, for example,
00:09:28.860 we can improve relations between disaffected communities
00:09:31.900 and local police forces?
00:09:34.500 What are the kind of things that can be done
00:09:36.400 to boost public support for robust policing practices
00:09:40.360 such as stop and search?
00:09:42.160 I think more generally, I always thought
00:09:44.540 that the traditional English promise of equality of opportunity,
00:09:47.500 I think there's more to be done.
00:09:49.080 I think that there's plenty more that can be done
00:09:51.280 in terms of creating a more meritocratic society,
00:09:53.840 a society where opportunities and rewards
00:09:56.000 are allocated on the basis of merit.
00:09:58.540 So I think there's definitely discussions to be had.
00:10:00.780 And what are some of the challenges in that area? Because I would imagine one of them that I have read about and I do believe is an issue is, for example, your name is Rakib Essan. If your name was John Smith, you'd probably have an easier time applying for jobs by sending in a CV. We have seen evidence of it. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about?
00:10:18.820 Yeah, but I think also if you're someone of...
00:10:20.980 If you're black Caribbean origin and your name is John Powell,
00:10:24.200 I think you may be at an advantage
00:10:26.100 as opposed to if your name was Constantine Kissin.
00:10:28.760 Yeah.
00:10:29.180 So it's not quite as simple as being a racial penalty as such.
00:10:33.040 You could say it's more of a cultural penalty
00:10:34.340 because Constantine Kissin is more culturally distant,
00:10:36.820 you could say, to a traditionally English-sounding name.
00:10:38.880 He keeps telling me that.
00:10:39.800 Yeah.
00:10:40.520 And I'm right.
00:10:41.600 So I think those kind of discussions
00:10:43.380 where you talk about maybe introducing more name-blind applications,
00:10:46.740 at least that might be more of an equaliser
00:10:50.120 in terms of the equalisation of opportunity
00:10:52.800 and I think that's quite important
00:10:54.080 it's not so much about an equality of outcomes
00:10:56.940 it's more about trying to create a more fairer process
00:11:00.180 especially in the realm of employment
00:11:01.840 which as you know ultimately employment is the
00:11:05.180 it's almost the core of one's life
00:11:07.420 essentially it gives you a sense of structure
00:11:09.400 a sense of pride
00:11:10.500 also helps to put food on the table as well
00:11:13.220 and pay the bills
00:11:14.000 so I think those kind of discussions are really important
00:11:16.460 I don't think I think we should guard against complacency. While I say that overall, we're a tolerant, anti-discrimination, pro-equality country. That's not to say that we can improve on those fronts. But what I don't agree with is ultimately a vilification of British society and its public institutions.
00:11:35.280 And I do think the more aggressive elements of the BLM movement,
00:11:41.100 they have been responsible for doing that.
00:11:43.520 And that in turn undermines the broader anti-racism cause
00:11:46.740 because it alienates people who do care about racial equality,
00:11:50.380 but they don't share that warped interpretation of British society
00:11:54.400 and institutions in both the public and private sector.
00:11:58.060 And why do you think these people have been given a platform?
00:12:00.620 Like you see the same faces rolled out again and again and again.
00:12:04.600 some of your favourites. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But why is it we consistently give these people
00:12:09.860 a platform if, as you say, their view of British society is warped? Well, I think in certain public
00:12:16.140 institutions, mainstream public broadcasters such as the BBC, I do sense there's a great deal of
00:12:22.100 white guilt in those institutions, if I'm being perfectly honest. And as you've said, you see
00:12:28.160 these same voices and they recycle their identitarian nonsense which is deeply divisive
00:12:35.440 and I think all too often ethnic minority voices I think that there's improvements being made on
00:12:40.360 that front but ethnic minority voices who might provide a more optimistic positive vision of
00:12:45.680 Britain and rather providing a positive interpretation of race relations how we're
00:12:50.820 doing when it comes to matters of racial equality I think for a while they were being sidelined
00:12:56.040 if I'm being perfectly honest.
00:12:58.320 But obviously you have GB News,
00:13:00.080 you have people there such as Mercy Meraki,
00:13:02.920 I mean, Naya Fullerina Man,
00:13:04.500 who at least provide a more balanced perspective.
00:13:07.320 And I think that's really important
00:13:08.700 because you don't want identitarian leftists
00:13:12.400 seizing the narrative
00:13:13.380 when it comes to race-related issues in Britain.
00:13:15.760 And your book is called Manufactured Grievance.
00:13:17.960 I want to talk about the grievance industry a little bit because...
00:13:21.160 You're wondering how to get into it?
00:13:22.520 Absolutely, mate. I'm determined.
00:13:24.100 It's very profitable, so I wouldn't blame you.
00:13:25.600 I just kind of struggle with that for some reason. But anyway, I'm just curious. A lot of people may not be familiar with this idea or they might find it inherently difficult to accept. But it seems quite obvious to me at this point, and tell me if you agree with this, that there are a lot of people, and I don't even blame them because human beings respond to incentives, right?
00:13:45.940 if you can get a good job and with a great salary and social status and newspaper inches and
00:13:52.400 whatever, by having a particular mindset, it will attract people to doing that.
00:13:58.040 Absolutely, yeah.
00:13:58.480 And so it does seem to me like there are a lot of people who just don't want things to get better.
00:14:04.820 No, in the short, no, they don't. And I think that when I talk about the grievance industrial
00:14:09.840 complex, I'll give you an example. The Runnymede Trust. Back in 2000, they set up a 23 strong
00:14:15.920 Commission to look at the issue, racial equality issues in Britain. And it concluded that Britain
00:14:20.720 had some of the best race relations in Europe. It said that it had a much more relaxed society than
00:14:26.140 other multi-ethnic democracies such as France, Germany and the United States. And they said that
00:14:32.280 the idea that racism was widespread in Britain was a skewed and partisan view. Now, the Runnymede
00:14:38.520 Trust now this year published a report which said that England suffers from systemic racism
00:14:43.720 that ultimately limits the enjoyment of BAME rights,
00:14:48.040 an acronym that I think is absolutely hopeless, by the way.
00:14:50.700 Maybe we can discuss that later on.
00:14:53.200 Ultimately portraying England as some kind of systemically racist hellhole.
00:14:57.820 So you can see that the same institution from the year 2000 to now
00:15:03.540 is essentially saying that our country has descended
00:15:07.220 from being an internationally reputable model for race relations
00:15:10.580 to a systemically racist hellhole.
00:15:12.520 Now, that's a scorching hot take that I don't think many people would share at all.
00:15:16.520 And I do feel that institutions, perhaps because they see that there's an opportunity for financial profit, combined with this moral grandstanding.
00:15:24.960 So ultimately, it's impressing people in their particular sector, in their social circles.
00:15:28.920 and you also have that financial incentive to present what I would consider to be a fundamentally
00:15:35.040 warped interpretation of race relations in the UK and how well we're doing in terms of racial
00:15:42.260 equality but crucially when it comes to complex forms of social and economic disadvantage all too
00:15:49.440 often they'll put racial identity at the heart of it when I think there's other very important
00:15:54.680 factors at play, such as internal cultural norms, in particular communities, attitudes towards
00:16:00.080 female empowerment, even things such as where you live. I think geographical inequality will live
00:16:05.840 in one of the most inter-regionally imbalanced economies in the world. I think family breakdown
00:16:12.320 is something that many people simply don't want to touch with a barge pole. I think the great
00:16:16.240 advantage you could have in modern day Britain is if you are raised by two loving, attentive parents.
00:16:23.140 But then people portray that as some kind of vilification
00:16:25.880 of single parents, not at all.
00:16:27.880 But I don't think we should shy away from the fact
00:16:29.740 that there's particular family structures
00:16:31.620 which are more strongly associated with positive youth outcomes,
00:16:35.440 whether it's school attainment, cognitive development,
00:16:38.320 mental wellbeing, being less likely to be involved
00:16:42.040 in the criminal justice system.
00:16:43.820 I think those are the discussions we need to be having
00:16:45.600 when it comes to matters of inequality in Britain.
00:16:48.140 Why don't we have those discussions?
00:16:49.820 Well, I think a lot of people,
00:16:50.800 that they just like being politically sensitive.
00:16:53.040 I think as opposed to grappling with the main issues,
00:16:56.320 they want to be liked.
00:16:58.760 I think that's what it is.
00:16:59.780 And I don't really care for being overly popular
00:17:02.200 or being well-liked.
00:17:03.780 Because I think if you want to be a serious actor
00:17:06.020 that wants to tackle the root causes of inequality,
00:17:09.780 then you're going to have to face up
00:17:11.100 to some uncomfortable truths.
00:17:12.820 Now, for me, Britain,
00:17:13.720 I think there's many wonderful things about Britain.
00:17:15.960 Britain is also an international hotspot
00:17:17.540 when it comes to family breakdown.
00:17:19.640 And as I've discussed,
00:17:20.400 I think family structure can be hugely influential
00:17:22.860 when it comes to youth development and future life progression.
00:17:26.320 And I think that needs to be better reflected in British social policy
00:17:29.100 because I think all too often we're guided more by what's fashionable
00:17:33.620 as opposed to the facts.
00:17:35.760 And I think that's hugely problematic in the social policy space.
00:17:40.360 Hey, Constantine, how are you feeling?
00:17:43.560 Good.
00:17:44.040 And your mental health?
00:17:45.420 I'm from Russia. We don't have mental health.
00:17:47.380 Well, in the civilized world, we talk about our mental health
00:17:50.860 and how we're feeling about our place in the universe.
00:17:54.880 In the words of my uncle Vlad, that is why we will crush you.
00:17:58.260 Well, he's two months away from a breakdown.
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00:19:11.940 do you think there's there's another thing here which is we've bought into some kind of to me and
00:19:21.960 i consider myself liberal but we've bought into a form of liberalism that that almost says nothing
00:19:28.140 is right nothing is wrong nothing is good nothing is bad it's just hey man just do whatever you want
00:19:34.620 And so if you are in a single parent environment,
00:19:39.660 nobody should ever say anything
00:19:42.180 about what that can lead to on average, right?
00:19:45.400 We're not talking about individual people.
00:19:46.820 You're saying on average,
00:19:48.060 a kid with two parents does better on average
00:19:50.520 than a kid with one parent, right?
00:19:52.020 There's no criticism of single parents,
00:19:53.720 but it's just saying this is the reality.
00:19:55.400 Yeah, what works best essentially.
00:19:56.400 What works best, right?
00:19:57.380 Just in terms of practical outcomes.
00:19:59.200 But to say that is to judge
00:20:02.080 and we don't want to judge anything anymore.
00:20:04.620 Well, for me, it's not making some kind of emotional judgment. I'm looking at what the evidence is telling me. And I think that's something where the left, unfortunately, it's guided more by emotions and political correctness, as opposed to actually acknowledging what are the facts, what are the realities on the ground.
00:20:23.540 Now, when we talk about disparities, for example,
00:20:25.620 one of the things that isn't talked about very much at all
00:20:27.480 is the huge differences between different ethnic groups
00:20:31.040 when it comes to the kind of family structure
00:20:33.400 that young people are raised in.
00:20:36.060 So when it comes to people aged up to 15 years,
00:20:40.780 whether or not they live in a lone parent household,
00:20:44.480 so the figure for dependents of Indian origin is only 6%.
00:20:48.460 That rises to 63% for children of black Caribbean origin.
00:20:51.980 and I think that kind of difference is bound to have an impact on the kind of
00:20:56.380 life trajectory for young people in those particular ethnic groups. Now BLM of course
00:21:02.980 there's many discussions to be had in terms of racial discrimination, ethnic penalties in the
00:21:07.760 labour market, how we can create a healthcare system which is more responsive to the needs of
00:21:12.020 a diverse population but one of the biggest problems facing many black British communities
00:21:16.760 is the lack of responsible male role models in those communities.
00:21:21.800 And I think when it comes to issues of fatherlessness,
00:21:24.500 that's something that, for example, Dr. Tony Sewell,
00:21:26.740 who was the lead author of the recent Cred Report,
00:21:30.200 and interestingly, David Lammy used to talk about this a great deal.
00:21:34.260 You know, in my early years of adulthood, he was my favourite politician.
00:21:37.640 Because what he did, he managed to blend this strong commitment to social justice
00:21:41.340 with almost like an honest family-oriented traditionalism.
00:21:45.380 and I feel that perhaps because he had some personal disappointments
00:21:48.720 such as finishing fourth in the Labour candidacy
00:21:51.500 for the mayoral election in 2016
00:21:55.400 which Sadiq Khan obviously won.
00:21:57.260 He finished fourth, he finished behind Diane Abbott
00:21:59.600 so that would be a bitter pill to swallow
00:22:01.800 especially for a man of his intellect.
00:22:04.100 But it's a real shame that he turned his back on that politics
00:22:06.620 perhaps because he realised within the Labour Party
00:22:09.120 that sort of tribal racial identity politics,
00:22:11.620 radical social liberalism was very much on the up.
00:22:16.820 So perhaps that led to a disintegration
00:22:19.140 or rather his abandonment of his own communitarian politics.
00:22:22.180 And I think that's a real shame.
00:22:24.440 It is a real shame because, like you said,
00:22:26.240 he is a very, very intelligent man
00:22:28.200 and he could be a powerful force within the Labour Party.
00:22:30.940 There's an article of yours that I found very, very interesting
00:22:34.320 talking about Muslims in the UK
00:22:36.560 and how actually the UK is probably the best place
00:22:40.780 in the eu to live for muslims could you go into a little bit about that well i think it was
00:22:45.580 interesting that you had the european court of justice they recently um ruled that muslim european
00:22:50.960 muslim women who wore hijab in the workplace if the um if their employers think that that is leading
00:22:57.880 to workplace conflicts or that's affecting kind of you know relations with clients and customers
00:23:04.000 that they could be fired now that's something that would never happen in the united kingdom
00:23:07.540 And you saw that after Brexit, you had these kind of intolerant Britain versus tolerant Europe narratives from a band of deranged EU enthusiasts.
00:23:18.460 That's the way I'd describe them.
00:23:20.320 When in reality, Britain, when it comes, for example, the provision of anti-discrimination protections on the grounds of race, religion, ethnicity,
00:23:28.420 Britain comfortably outperforms countries such as France.
00:23:30.820 France has this sort of almost rigid secular universalism.
00:23:35.540 The idea that they'd even collect data broken down by race and ethnicity
00:23:39.700 completely goes against that kind of political culture that they have in place.
00:23:44.480 That's obviously problematic because you can't identify issues of racial discrimination in various spheres.
00:23:49.120 In Britain, we have a strong commitment to collecting that kind of data
00:23:52.360 and then at least discussing how we go about approaching those kind of issues.
00:23:57.960 Other countries such as Germany and Netherlands,
00:23:59.940 I wouldn't say their provision of those anti-discrimination protections are as robust
00:24:03.760 as in the case of the UK. And I think that when it comes to British Muslims in particular,
00:24:10.020 I feel that they're poorly represented by identitarian organisations who, quite frankly,
00:24:14.860 they tap into that religious grievance politics, I would say. So three in four British Muslims
00:24:19.460 feel that Britain is a good place to live as a Muslim. And the main reason they provide for that
00:24:25.000 is freedom of religion. What's interesting is that it's the mainstream who are less likely to
00:24:29.580 think that Britain is a good place to live as a Muslim. I don't know whether there's some kind of
00:24:33.560 white saviour complex at play there very possible but I do feel that you know personally as a British
00:24:38.880 Muslim myself I do think that Britain is a very good place to live as you know as you know in
00:24:45.260 terms of you know practicing your religion it's also worth noting that many Muslim people who
00:24:51.300 live in Britain they originate from countries which are deeply unstable in a social sense
00:24:56.180 there's rampant institutional corruption there's a great deal of you know community tensions
00:25:02.140 but also between different Muslim denominations, Islamic denominations.
00:25:06.700 So when you compare that context, that kind of social disturbance
00:25:11.560 and those political problems there,
00:25:13.860 naturally they have a positive feeling towards British democracy.
00:25:20.420 But all too often these kind of things are not discussed about at all
00:25:23.120 when we talk about the place of British Muslims in their own country.
00:25:26.560 Well, Rakib, speaking of that,
00:25:27.760 it would be interesting to talk about you being a practising Muslim
00:25:31.640 because one of the things that people sometimes and admittedly these are people who are on the
00:25:36.480 sort of hard drive but this is one of the things that they often talk about that british muslims
00:25:40.820 struggle to integrate and they'll point to things like the polls which show british attitude muslim
00:25:46.160 attitudes to homosexuality to women's liberation and all this sort of stuff where do you sit on
00:25:52.000 all of that like how well is is the muslim community if one exists integrating and has
00:25:57.480 integrated into British society. Well I think that that's the thing there that all too often
00:26:00.800 is presented a British Muslim community but it's so incredibly diverse in terms of social values
00:26:06.380 and political affiliation more generally when it comes to issues of female empowerment
00:26:12.360 and just generally what is the place of British Muslims in their own country that there is a
00:26:17.940 great deal of diversity also just things with ethnicity and different religious denominations
00:26:22.620 as well I think that there's definitely discussion to be had in terms of you know what is the place
00:26:28.600 of British Muslim women for example because I do feel that for example when you look at levels of
00:26:35.220 child poverty in certain Muslim majority communities I think female empowerment needs
00:26:41.140 to be discussed because I think that when you see various cases across the world that is the
00:26:46.960 most effective route out of poverty for certain groups and societies empowering women and I think
00:26:52.520 those discussions need to be had in Britain. I think in terms of how British Muslims are
00:26:58.060 caricatured, I think that on the hard left, you have, you know, that these people are deeply
00:27:03.640 oppressed. They're really struggling in an aggressively anti-Muslim country, which has
00:27:09.900 no respect for them. You know, the mainstream doesn't like them whatsoever. And then you have
00:27:15.160 the hard right ethno-nationalists who portray British Muslims of some kind of, you know,
00:27:20.040 almost like a fifth columnist block of disloyal people who live in Britain.
00:27:27.140 But in reality, they both couldn't be further from the truth.
00:27:30.080 As I said, the vast majority of British Muslims,
00:27:32.280 they're satisfied with British democracy.
00:27:34.280 They think that Britain is a good place to live as a Muslim.
00:27:37.680 Generally, relatively high levels of trust in public institutions,
00:27:41.180 such as the NHS.
00:27:42.760 And they also show high levels of British identification,
00:27:45.560 which many people are quite surprised about,
00:27:47.220 especially British Pakistanis and British Bangladeshis they do show high levels of
00:27:52.320 British identification so you can see there that all too often you do have radical ideologues
00:27:57.280 who dominate the conversation when they're not you know the arguments that they provide
00:28:03.580 they're not rooted in reality at all. And it's interesting you say that because you made the
00:28:07.840 point that Muslim people aren't a monolith and of course it's so true like I've got friends who are
00:28:12.980 are Muslim and one of them is Indonesian now obviously an Indonesian Muslim is going to be
00:28:17.460 very very different to a Bangladeshi Muslim because their countries are completely different
00:28:21.940 their societies are different do we need to start realizing that you know when we talk about things
00:28:27.920 like Asian people black people these terms are really reductive and pointless and they don't
00:28:33.980 actually describe people accurately well I think you'd even get differences between the
00:28:38.960 average Muslim from Dhaka, which is the capital of Bangladesh, and Sila, which is, you know,
00:28:44.340 Dhaka is a bit more modernized, a bit more developed, a bit more socially liberal, you
00:28:50.000 could say, while Sila is more socially conservative, a bit poorer, more deprived, more agricultural.
00:28:57.000 So you can even see within one Muslim country, you can see the regional differences there.
00:29:02.480 So I think we really need to have a discussion about, you know, to what extent are people
00:29:06.380 homogenizing very different groups.
00:29:08.660 So after the CRED report came out, the Seor report,
00:29:11.700 I think even labels such as Black and Asian,
00:29:14.020 they're bringing together vastly different groups.
00:29:18.820 There's huge differences in socioeconomic integration,
00:29:23.160 political behavior between British Indians and British Pakistanis.
00:29:26.860 They'd both be brought into an Asian category.
00:29:30.940 There's also very serious differences
00:29:33.080 between people of Black Caribbean origin
00:29:35.400 and people of black African origin.
00:29:37.140 You can see that even in terms of pupil performance
00:29:39.540 in English schools, perception of race relations,
00:29:42.840 to what extent do they attach importance to their faith,
00:29:46.020 their general perception of British society
00:29:48.240 and public institutions.
00:29:49.920 So I think even those kind of labels,
00:29:51.980 those sort of overarching racial categories,
00:29:54.660 they're not particularly useful
00:29:55.560 from a social policy perspective at all.
00:29:58.120 Ricky, one of the things I was wondering about
00:30:01.020 in terms of having these conversations
00:30:03.000 and why sometimes we as a society seem reluctant to do
00:30:06.240 is there was a moment,
00:30:07.640 and I think that moment is in the past now,
00:30:09.120 but there was a moment where multiculturalism was the thing, right?
00:30:12.620 That was the word.
00:30:14.020 And everybody had to buy into this idea.
00:30:17.480 What do you make of multiculturalism
00:30:21.000 and the attempt to kind of mainstream that as a thing?
00:30:23.680 You're smiling already.
00:30:24.840 I think the state-sponsored multiculturalism
00:30:26.980 is a disastrous model for political and social integration.
00:30:32.820 I think that...
00:30:33.540 Explain that for people who may not,
00:30:35.380 because some people don't even understand the difference
00:30:37.400 between a multi-ethnic society and a multicultural society.
00:30:41.340 So give us the definitions and then tell us why.
00:30:43.500 I think a multi-ethnic society can have a strong, inclusive patriotism,
00:30:48.520 which ultimately focuses more on shared values.
00:30:51.540 Or rather you have a, you almost say you have a socio-political effort
00:30:54.980 to cultivate a sense of common purpose.
00:30:59.340 it's essentially trying to bring together different groups in society
00:31:03.780 almost around this common moral cultural standard.
00:31:09.780 Under one umbrella identity.
00:31:11.400 So I'm from Russia, France, this is mixed background.
00:31:14.440 You are, wherever you are, you're practicing Muslim.
00:31:17.100 But we're all British, right?
00:31:18.900 We all buy into that British identity.
00:31:21.080 That's a multi-ethnic society.
00:31:22.800 Yeah, and I think there just needs to be,
00:31:24.420 at least you have discussions about what is at the core
00:31:27.880 of that civic identity.
00:31:29.900 So I'll talk about things like social contribution,
00:31:32.920 ultimately treating people fairly,
00:31:35.080 irrespective of their ethnic, racial, religious background,
00:31:39.260 and also having a discussion about
00:31:40.880 what kind of cultural practices
00:31:42.660 shouldn't have any place in British society.
00:31:47.300 And I think that those kind of discussions still need to be had.
00:31:50.100 What are you hinting at?
00:31:50.680 You keep saying this thing, but you never spell it out.
00:31:52.700 I think even things like,
00:31:54.400 if I had to talk about FGM,
00:31:56.760 female genital mutilation.
00:31:58.620 I think the inaction on those kind of issues for so long
00:32:02.660 was embarrassing, to be honest.
00:32:05.260 I think that's a national scandal in itself.
00:32:08.860 So I think those kind of things, for far too long,
00:32:12.520 we've had political leaders, they want to avoid those kind of topics.
00:32:16.040 If they really care about women's rights, for example.
00:32:21.080 I think that's very interesting.
00:32:22.140 You have the progressive left.
00:32:23.200 They talk about, you know, how they want to protect women's rights, how they want to strengthen them.
00:32:28.820 But when it comes to those kind of sensitive issues, because they might be more prevalent in minority communities,
00:32:35.420 all too often they don't really want to talk about it.
00:32:37.320 They're deeply uncomfortable and it's almost like their political correctness gets in the way of taking action on those kind of issues.
00:32:45.460 But I think in going back to this idea of multiculturalism,
00:32:48.000 I think there's that, it's almost like politicians,
00:32:50.400 they have a greater emphasis on what's different about us
00:32:53.320 and they celebrate that.
00:32:54.980 But they don't understand the complications that come with diversity.
00:32:58.440 Because ultimately, if there's a great deal of cultural diversity,
00:33:02.780 but you have that lack of, that sort of unifying set of values,
00:33:07.960 then you can, you almost have a balkanisation process.
00:33:11.980 And I think that's quite problematic
00:33:13.820 Because if there's a lack of social trust in a diverse society such as ours, you almost lose public support for ambitious, collectivist sort of endeavours, such as the all-encompassing welfare state.
00:33:26.900 Now, I traditionally identify with the left. I do think that we should have an all-encompassing welfare state.
00:33:32.460 But in order to sustain that and keep that in healthy condition, you need to have high levels of social solidarity.
00:33:38.400 and i think that that's that's where my sort of traditional leftism that's what it's rooted in
00:33:44.640 that sense that you need to have a stable national membership you need to have high levels of
00:33:48.920 social trust and i think that naturally leads to immigration for example i do think that you need
00:33:54.140 to have a fairly restrictive immigration system in order to sustain that welfare state because i
00:33:59.500 think that if you if you have this kind of it's a constant flux in the sense it trust takes a long
00:34:05.200 time to develop especially when it comes you know when it's between different racial ethnic and
00:34:09.520 religious groups so I really think that we need to have I think on the left the left needs to have
00:34:14.800 more discussions about immigration I think that all too often we've had these open border
00:34:20.800 cosmopolitans who have almost dominated the debate on the left and I think that's actually
00:34:26.400 alienating for many traditional working class voters who may associate well traditionally
00:34:30.960 associated themselves with Labour but now may be looking elsewhere to offer their electoral support
00:34:36.240 so I think ultimately with multiculturalism it's about trying to create a unifying set of values
00:34:41.060 and almost you're being guarded against that celebration of difference because I think if
00:34:45.740 you go over the top with that it makes it very difficult to create a cohesive whole
00:34:50.080 and you've made a lot of good points you talked about being on the left and yet
00:34:54.880 wanting a policy of immigration that is restrictive I mean you can't say that if
00:35:00.320 you're on the left most people i mean you just did mate what are you gonna do in your face what
00:35:06.540 are you gonna do but most people on the left can't do that because it seems to me a lot of
00:35:11.200 leaders on the left are crippled by two emotions guilt and fear i i think that for example when it
00:35:16.960 came to freedom i think that was one of the reasons why we voted out to be honest i think
00:35:20.680 that people said oh you know this was driven by anti-immigrant sentiment well also i'd make the
00:35:26.600 point that there was decent levels of Brexit support in ethnic minority communities, especially
00:35:31.660 particularly well-off Indian origin communities in West London. I come from Luton, which voted
00:35:38.780 56.5% leave. Now, that wasn't purely white working class people voting to leave the European Union.
00:35:45.340 They had decent levels of leave support across different ethnic and religious groups. I think
00:35:50.780 that there is that acknowledgement in many communities that if you want to have a sustainable
00:35:56.040 welfare state you need to have high levels of social trust and social solidarity so ultimately
00:36:02.580 it's almost a sense that if you want to support if you're supportive of that kind of welfare state
00:36:07.500 that's not compatible with an open borders policy and I think that's what many people on the left
00:36:13.260 really struggle to understand but I think many British people get it but that's perhaps why
00:36:17.460 Labor, you know, they're not very good at winning elections nowadays.
00:36:21.120 Do you think they struggle to understand it
00:36:22.660 or do you think they're just scared in order,
00:36:25.300 because if they do come out and talk about restrictive immigration,
00:36:28.540 they'll be demonised as racist, whatever else,
00:36:31.060 particularly, and they're more likely to be demonised as racist
00:36:33.840 if they're white.
00:36:34.720 I mean, look at, sorry to interrupt,
00:36:36.560 but just look at like Keir Starmer, when he first became leader,
00:36:40.260 he tried to talk about the flag and, you know, whatever.
00:36:43.580 And he got creamed for that.
00:36:45.320 So what are they going to tear off him
00:36:47.500 if he starts talking about immigration?
00:36:48.880 Do you know what I mean?
00:36:49.440 I think his problem is that he's not very convincing
00:36:51.880 when he expresses his supposedly patriotic feelings.
00:36:57.320 I don't think it's very...
00:36:58.720 It's not authentic.
00:36:59.720 I think there's an authenticity problem there.
00:37:02.580 I think that being the chief architect
00:37:04.180 of the second referendum policy,
00:37:06.400 I think that that really undermined his own reputation
00:37:09.140 in pro-Brexit working-class communities
00:37:11.540 who traditionally voted for the Labour Party.
00:37:14.060 I think that when you look at those discussions
00:37:16.100 I think there is an intellectual deficit on the left
00:37:19.740 if I'm being completely honest
00:37:20.880 but I also agree that even if people may feel that way
00:37:24.040 perhaps they don't feel comfortable in articulating those kind of views
00:37:27.560 because of the ideological leanings of their own social circles
00:37:30.780 that is a possibility
00:37:31.700 And doesn't that just mean, Ricky
00:37:34.760 because I see myself on the left as well
00:37:37.040 even though a lot of them probably would hate to have me on the left
00:37:39.860 Yeah, I'm sure they would
00:37:40.720 You didn't have to say that
00:37:42.520 But anyway, don't you think that effectively what we're going to see now
00:37:46.740 is a Conservative government that's just going to reign for generations?
00:37:49.840 And I think that's poor for British democracy.
00:37:51.420 Oh, terrible.
00:37:51.800 Because I think you need to have a robust,
00:37:54.100 you need robust intellectual opposition to keep the government in check.
00:37:59.200 I think you almost have that kind of sclerosis,
00:38:01.980 you know, mistakes at the heart of government,
00:38:07.560 behaviours which I don't particularly support at the heart of government as well.
00:38:11.140 matt hancock springs to mind but i think those kind of things creep in when there's a weak
00:38:15.780 opposition if i'm being perfectly honest and even with all those things going on the tories continue
00:38:20.480 to register leads in every poll i think professor matt goodwin i think i think it's nearly 131
00:38:26.160 consecutive polls now that the tories have been ahead of labor labor have been out of power for
00:38:31.120 11 years yeah and i wouldn't say that the government is a particularly high performing
00:38:36.100 government i think i think i think overall i think the main issue is that it's not so much
00:38:40.680 that people are really supportive of the government.
00:38:42.880 They love the Conservative Party.
00:38:44.700 Instead, they dread the alternative.
00:38:46.960 That's so true.
00:38:48.280 Rakeem, let me ask you the devil's advocate question,
00:38:51.420 which is, you know, I never pretended to be on the left.
00:38:54.840 I've always thought of myself in the centre,
00:38:56.700 but the two of you are.
00:38:58.060 Aren't you just two Conservatives who are really deep down,
00:39:01.280 you just hate immigrants, and you're just sitting here going,
00:39:03.600 well, I used to be on the left, but actually get them out.
00:39:06.360 Do you know what I mean?
00:39:06.780 Well, I mean, it's unusual to be accused of that,
00:39:09.520 being a Bangladesh and Indian Muslim origin.
00:39:11.940 But I think that ultimately you need...
00:39:14.080 But there are people who would do that.
00:39:15.320 They'd say you're a coconut and whatever.
00:39:17.260 Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:17.500 I mean, I've heard it all before.
00:39:18.420 Uncle Tom, coconut, race traitor,
00:39:21.440 house Muslim and all the rest of it.
00:39:22.840 It's all a war off a duck's back for me.
00:39:24.520 I couldn't care less.
00:39:25.760 Because ultimately, I know that what I'm saying is quite...
00:39:29.000 Well, it's relevant.
00:39:30.000 I think it's necessary.
00:39:31.680 And I think when you look at, you know,
00:39:33.400 myself and Francis identify with the left.
00:39:35.600 One of the first things I did
00:39:36.660 when I obtained full-time employment
00:39:38.080 was join a trade union.
00:39:39.520 which I think is a fairly leftist thing to do.
00:39:42.920 I think that, as I said, I support an all-encompassing welfare state.
00:39:46.380 I care a lot about the NHS in terms of being responsive
00:39:48.580 to the needs of a diverse population.
00:39:51.920 I also want to see a fairly active state
00:39:55.120 in terms of trying to develop public infrastructure
00:39:58.820 in some of the poorest parts of the country.
00:40:00.520 I think these are quite classic bread-and-butter leftist issues.
00:40:04.440 It's just that when it comes to the sort of racial grievance politics,
00:40:09.180 The reality is that the traditional British left is rooted in social solidarity.
00:40:12.420 So I see that racial grievance politics as a betrayal of traditional Labour politics.
00:40:18.340 And I don't think that's a particularly controversial view to offer.
00:40:21.660 And do you think your argument is going to win?
00:40:25.120 Because the worry I have with the racial grievance stuff,
00:40:29.580 and they found a way because they tried it with feminism and it didn't quite work
00:40:33.680 because at the end of the day,
00:40:35.500 you can't really separate women and men enough
00:40:38.600 for them to see each other as enemies.
00:40:42.240 But with racial groups, we are hardwired for tribalism.
00:40:46.460 And I just worry that this ideology is so like,
00:40:50.440 oh, it's right there in the gut.
00:40:52.620 Do you know what I mean?
00:40:53.100 And it preys on your worst instincts.
00:40:54.680 Exactly.
00:40:55.260 And if you teach people that over time,
00:40:57.500 I just feel like it's going to be hard
00:40:59.340 for your very reasonable point of view
00:41:01.880 to triumph over that thing that hits you right in here.
00:41:05.120 Do you know what I mean?
00:41:05.920 I don't think my arguments will win on the left.
00:41:07.920 I'd like to see it win on the left, if I'm being perfectly honest.
00:41:10.820 I think that's a big part of my book, Manufactured Grievance.
00:41:13.660 I want to offer the left a way out
00:41:15.360 in terms of being a more mature and inclusive force
00:41:18.660 in British political society.
00:41:20.980 I'm not sure if that will happen,
00:41:23.020 but I think my arguments will win.
00:41:24.700 My kind of arguments would win out in the mainstream,
00:41:27.740 and I think that's important.
00:41:29.300 And I already said that I think the mainstream
00:41:30.860 is more tolerant than many people on the left portray them to be.
00:41:35.040 I think that they are quite concerned.
00:41:37.600 Well, they're concerned about rooting out discrimination
00:41:39.480 wherever you find it, whatever kind of discrimination that is.
00:41:42.660 But in terms of would my arguments win on the left,
00:41:45.540 I'm not particularly sure.
00:41:48.000 But I do see, I see people, for example, Paul Embry,
00:41:50.360 the kind of arguments he makes, I think they're very important.
00:41:54.120 And I do feel that kind of blue Labour tendency,
00:41:56.620 those kind of writers, Adrian Pabst would be another one.
00:42:00.200 And I think they bring important discussions to the table.
00:42:03.880 They bring important points to the table.
00:42:06.000 I almost feel that there's a battle for the left soul, in a sense.
00:42:10.820 I'm not sure how that will pan out.
00:42:13.740 But I think when you're talking about my kind of arguments,
00:42:16.280 I think ultimately it's about whether or not I win here or I win there.
00:42:21.780 I think it's ultimately portraying what I think about Britain,
00:42:26.680 what I think would be a positive way forward
00:42:28.940 when it comes to race relations and community cohesion.
00:42:31.900 And then I'll let people discuss about it.
00:42:34.960 Hey, Francis, do you want to learn another language?
00:42:38.320 No, mate, I'm English.
00:42:39.940 If foreigners can't understand me, I just shout at them.
00:42:42.940 Think about it, you could learn how to say penalties in Italian.
00:42:46.520 Leave it.
00:42:47.420 But if you do want to learn another language
00:42:49.740 because maybe you want to have new experiences,
00:42:52.040 live in another country,
00:42:53.020 or maybe you just want to open your mind.
00:42:55.360 My mind's open enough.
00:42:56.460 If I open it up any further, my brain's going to hurt.
00:42:59.620 This is true.
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00:43:14.360 Thank you, Francis.
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00:43:54.840 tu vas a poder hablar español absolutamente perfecto.
00:43:59.400 Now, I mean, Gary.
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00:44:27.600 There's something that I really wanted to discuss with you
00:44:32.300 And you brought it up there about the, let's call them what they are
00:44:36.120 The racial slurs that have been hurled against you by people on the left
00:44:39.580 Sure
00:44:39.940 Number one, why does that happen?
00:44:41.820 And number two, why do people not think that is racist?
00:44:44.840 Because if it came from the mouth of, you know, a white van driver,
00:44:49.440 whatever else, to use a cultural stereotype,
00:44:52.080 you'd be like, well, that's racism, and you'd be right.
00:44:54.180 But why is it acceptable just because someone's got pronouns in their bio
00:44:57.320 to do it to you, and that's fine?
00:45:00.060 Because they think they're moral guardians.
00:45:02.020 They see themselves as moral guardians,
00:45:03.880 so they can't even understand, you know, what they're doing is wrong.
00:45:07.640 They don't believe it.
00:45:09.180 And when you try to explain it to them,
00:45:10.740 they still don't really see what they're doing wrong at all.
00:45:14.840 I think that when it comes to those kind of racial slurs,
00:45:17.260 I think you almost see that kind of...
00:45:19.140 I think, for example, with BLM,
00:45:20.360 I think there's been an increase in intra-black animosity.
00:45:23.780 Black people who don't, who refuse to toe the identitarian line,
00:45:27.960 it's almost like their black authenticity is being questioned.
00:45:31.800 And I think you also have that similar kind of dynamic
00:45:34.020 in Asian communities, Muslim communities.
00:45:36.260 If you have a particular issue on counter-terrorism, for example,
00:45:39.360 counter-extremism, social integration and discrimination more generally,
00:45:44.220 you'll have you know one muslim might accuse another muslim of being a sort of house muslim
00:45:49.500 almost trying to appease non-muslim people so you have that kind it's really nasty kind of the kind
00:45:56.100 of tensions which have developed in recent times and i do think there's been a normalization of
00:46:00.940 left-wing bigotry which is going to alienate not just much of the sort of white british mainstream
00:46:06.420 but i think many traditional minded ethnic minority people find it hugely problematic
00:46:11.520 see it's interesting and you bring up the the tensions within uh again i use i hate the word
00:46:17.680 community because i think it's just been abused to death now but within the the muslim population
00:46:23.360 in the uk particularly in relation to counter-terrorism and all of that sort of thing
00:46:28.100 i mean a question that i think a lot of people don't ask out loud but but my ask inside the
00:46:35.340 privacy of their own home or inside of their head is why do have we had and thank god it hasn't
00:46:40.800 happened in the last year or two but why do we have you know over the last 10-15 years terrorist
00:46:46.800 attacks on the streets of london that are almost inevitably always committed by someone who's a
00:46:51.760 muslim why is that happening i think that there's real issues in terms of social integration i think
00:46:57.960 that we have allowed counter societies to develop in particular parts of the country and perhaps
00:47:04.060 maybe because of political correctness or rather just the naivety that people who originate from
00:47:09.760 fairly unstable countries they'll just enjoy the freedoms that are offered within british democracy
00:47:15.300 i think there has been it's almost like a misplaced idealism in in a way i think that
00:47:22.060 people talk about you know foreign policy the invasion of iraq um the war in afghanistan but i
00:47:29.840 do think that we it's almost that that us and them mentality has been allowed to fester
00:47:35.380 in particular communities and i think that in a way that you've had this sort of model of
00:47:42.680 multiculturalism which has almost empowered these self-appointed community leaders who
00:47:48.160 aren't necessarily helpful from a social cohesion perspective by the way that they've been empowered
00:47:53.460 while you've had the more sort of patriotic reformist kind of forces in british muslim
00:47:58.980 communities they've almost had the legs cut off under them really that they've just been left
00:48:03.680 behind, abandoned. And I think that that's been a real problem when we're talking about, you know,
00:48:08.960 the threat of Islamist extremism. I think that those kind of dynamics have been, they just
00:48:15.460 haven't been productive at all in terms of trying to create a more cohesive society. And I do feel
00:48:21.600 that in terms of those discussions about the place of British Muslims, I think that the wrong
00:48:27.240 organizations at times they've been empowered in terms of you know being platformed being offered
00:48:33.920 offered a view when okay you can offer them a view but then just to completely alienate people
00:48:39.640 who might have a different point of view or rather not even give them the opportunity to articulate
00:48:44.680 that their more positive optimistic view of Britain I think that's been hugely you know
00:48:50.220 hugely troubling to see. And do you think part of the problem is that in the media and just in
00:48:54.660 general negative messages are in some ways far more powerful than positive messages i think so
00:49:00.060 i think that my kind of views maybe perhaps it doesn't you know attract much on you know social
00:49:05.320 media social media engagement i think that the media ultimately it functions on hits attention
00:49:12.900 and i think i guess maybe outlandish outrageous almost extremist views it gathers people's
00:49:20.080 attention well i think that more sort of moderate optimistic positive views perhaps you know
00:49:26.980 certain editors certain channels they're just reluctant to platform those views because they
00:49:33.220 don't see it generating much attention to their outlets so what would be a healthy conversation
00:49:38.500 around the issue of islamism in the uk and and and in relation to terrorism because
00:49:45.240 I just feel like if you were to watch the news you wouldn't understand why anything is happening
00:49:51.900 that's the biggest problem with with the media for me is it's lost its explanatory power right
00:49:57.460 if you watch an event and then you watch the coverage you wouldn't know why it's happening
00:50:02.380 I don't really think that I know why someone would go into London Bridge near here and stab
00:50:09.240 people to death right I don't understand I don't know I think most people in this country don't
00:50:13.760 really know right so and and and when anything like that happens we're always told well islam
00:50:19.700 is a religion of peace and most muslims are peaceful there's no question about that right
00:50:22.880 but but why why is that happening do you see i'm getting that like why is someone doing that
00:50:28.280 yeah i mean i think that there's you know for different terrorist attacks there's different
00:50:32.360 motivations i think that we have to be honest that you know islamist extremism at the heart
00:50:38.280 of it is the construction of a global caliphate I mean obviously British liberal democratic values
00:50:44.500 there's not much space for British liberal democratic values and there'll be various
00:50:49.500 tactics and strategies that will be deployed to undermine those values in infiltrate you know
00:50:56.140 extremists would like to infiltrate and influence the behavior of public institutions what goes on
00:51:01.960 within those institutions as well and I think ultimately you know and another important point
00:51:07.620 is that sort of man-made legislation.
00:51:11.120 There's not any place for that
00:51:12.860 under sort of Islamist extremist mindsets.
00:51:17.420 So these people,
00:51:18.520 and we've had people want to talk about
00:51:20.180 the battle between nation states
00:51:24.140 and the Islamists in the Middle East.
00:51:26.900 So that's a really interesting point to get into.
00:51:29.200 So I guess what you're saying is
00:51:30.540 what these people want is to create a global caliphate
00:51:33.240 and they want to undermine
00:51:35.320 the liberal democratic structures of our society.
00:51:39.120 But how does stabbing someone on London Bridge do that?
00:51:42.880 Well, I think that in terms of the effectiveness of it,
00:51:47.640 we could definitely have a debate on that.
00:51:50.800 I think that in terms of when I'm talking about
00:51:53.600 maybe almost a non-violent Islamism, you can say,
00:51:56.960 some people just say that the best way to do this
00:51:59.380 would be to intimidate non-Muslims,
00:52:01.280 make them feel fearful within their own country,
00:52:03.360 that sort of intimidation factor.
00:52:05.320 them feel unsettled uncomfortable and aware of our extremist presence a violent terrorist attack can
00:52:10.840 achieve that but when i'm talking about you know influencing behavior within public institutions
00:52:15.160 state schools would be example it almost as you say it's almost undermining those liberal democratic
00:52:21.000 structures and values through taking control or rather influencing behavior within public
00:52:28.440 institutions. And I think that all too often our sort of mainstream political leaders have been
00:52:35.740 sleeping at the wheel, if I'm being absolutely honest. I think that when we look at the Labour
00:52:40.800 Party, we've had politicians such as Naj Shah, who've talked about Prevent, saying that Prevent
00:52:47.480 alienates British Muslim people. And then there was a poll that showed that 56% of British Muslim
00:52:52.060 people never heard of Prevent. They're so alienated they forgot about it. I almost see that there's
00:52:56.660 politicians they're given that platform and they're just spouting you know very divisive
00:53:01.300 messages about how people relate to public institutions but in reality when they if they
00:53:07.460 were more optimistic and i'm not saying that they should deny the existence of anti-muslim prejudice
00:53:11.960 anti-muslim prejudice does exist in the uk we should be we should be honest about that especially
00:53:16.580 in the labor market when it comes to employment private rented sector and you know when it comes
00:53:21.780 to housing, there's issues there as well. But to say, you know, Prevent alienates British Muslims
00:53:27.340 when more than half of British Muslims haven't heard of Prevent, it does create that us and them
00:53:33.100 kind of mentality. And then once someone is on that path, they can be very easily exploited,
00:53:38.480 especially if they live in communities which are very much mono-religious, fairly segregated.
00:53:44.780 They don't have experience of, you know, positive relations outside of their own faith group.
00:53:49.420 and perhaps they're detached from mainstream democracy,
00:53:54.120 those people are quite easy to work on.
00:53:56.460 They're quite susceptible or rather vulnerable to extremist influences.
00:54:00.160 And once they're on that path, then it can be a very slippery slope,
00:54:05.020 Islamist extremism.
00:54:06.280 So I think those are the kind of processes at play
00:54:08.580 when you're talking about how Islamist extremism is a problem in Britain.
00:54:13.200 So Raheem, we've identified the problem.
00:54:16.180 What's going to be the solution?
00:54:17.600 How do we overcome this?
00:54:18.800 how do we have a more cohesive society?
00:54:21.760 Well, I think it's about ultimately building on
00:54:25.540 what are sort of classic British principles.
00:54:28.080 So I think equality of opportunity would be one.
00:54:30.500 I think that's something that people in different ethnic
00:54:33.280 and religious groups can really buy into.
00:54:35.580 Most people aren't interested in equality of outcomes.
00:54:38.460 They expect fairness, not favours.
00:54:40.800 I think that there's obviously a discussion to be had
00:54:43.220 in terms of creating institutions where they're not seen as the enemy
00:54:47.300 or rather it's an institution that's against me i think that what we need to do we need to
00:54:51.500 find ways to improve relations between citizen and state i think that institute we need to have
00:54:59.220 institutional reforms where people feel more connected to those institutions i think all too
00:55:04.540 often they feel quite distant top down i think if the sort of leading officials in different
00:55:09.920 public institutions if they just did more community work more community engagement i think people
00:55:14.880 they just feel more of a closeness and I think that provides a sense of rootedness and belonging
00:55:19.220 as well in local communities if they feel that their institutions in those communities actually
00:55:24.540 care about them or they're interested in what they have to say so I think those kind of things
00:55:28.560 and that can actually help to improve race relations over time as well I think we've
00:55:33.880 also been talking about Islamist extremism I think one of the finest things about British
00:55:37.640 Muslim communities is how family-oriented they are I think there's strong forms of
00:55:41.000 intergenerational cohesion within British Muslim communities.
00:55:45.560 Well, I feel that one of the biggest problems in the mainstream is, for example,
00:55:48.580 loneliness among the elderly and family breakdown.
00:55:52.040 So I think those are the kind of things that maybe those kind of issues
00:55:55.480 surrounding family breakdown we should talk about a little bit more.
00:55:58.200 Yeah, you're absolutely right.
00:55:59.620 And we'll ask you our final question then.
00:56:01.700 But I actually think that is so true because some immigrant communities
00:56:06.260 do have those values that British people used to have,
00:56:08.900 but increasingly are starting to break down.
00:56:10.620 there's erosion there yeah there is and actually that is something we could kind of share and learn
00:56:15.480 from each other absolutely it's not just about oh what what you know ethnic minority communities
00:56:20.360 can learn from the white mainstream because if you see for example in terms of school performances
00:56:24.460 is pupils coming from ethnic minority communities but performing particularly well even if they're
00:56:28.660 from deprived backgrounds the thing is just it's talking is basically needs to have a discussion
00:56:33.080 about what really works in britain and when we talk about those shared values what we should be
00:56:38.460 focusing on I think we ultimately have to focus what are the issues we have in Britain which can
00:56:42.360 affect different communities it might affect certain communities more but also what's working
00:56:46.580 well in particular communities and how that can help to create a more it's almost like a high
00:56:52.860 performing country as a whole you know really boosting educational outcomes across the board
00:56:57.140 you know enhancing levels of social stability how we can say you know reduce criminal activity
00:57:02.740 I think just talking about how we can create a more stable society
00:57:06.780 and a more democratically healthy society,
00:57:11.940 I think those are the discussions that we need to be having
00:57:15.300 and that would be a really mature way forward
00:57:17.800 in terms of our race relations conversation
00:57:20.100 and more generally how we can build stronger levels of social cohesion.
00:57:24.800 Raheem, thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:57:27.820 If people want to find you, where's the place to do that?
00:57:29.860 Well, they can follow me on Twitter at R-A-K-I-B-E-H-S-A-N.
00:57:35.700 And yeah, I think, to be honest,
00:57:37.060 if you just start typing my first name,
00:57:38.620 I should pop up barely early on.
00:57:40.880 Brilliant stuff.
00:57:42.100 Thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:57:43.720 My pleasure.
00:57:44.740 Guys.
00:57:45.300 Well, we've got one more question, don't we?
00:57:46.640 Oh, we have.
00:57:47.060 Of course, we've got one more question,
00:57:48.740 which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about,
00:57:50.940 but we really should be?
00:57:52.520 I think it's something that I've touched on a fair bit.
00:57:54.640 I think we need to talk about family structure
00:57:56.580 and the importance of families
00:57:58.180 in terms of, you know, youth social development.
00:58:01.760 And I do feel that, you know, when we talk more generally
00:58:03.920 about matters of equality, or inequality rather,
00:58:08.780 I think that the impact of social, in terms of family breakdown
00:58:12.440 and how that can impact, or rather how that can contribute
00:58:14.740 towards many social ills in local communities,
00:58:18.980 I think that needs to be discussed a little bit more
00:58:21.160 in the social policy space.
00:58:23.420 Very good.
00:58:24.080 And the book, of course, is Manufactured Greedance.
00:58:25.980 I really look forward to reading it.
00:58:27.460 when can people get it and where so you can pre-order manufactured grievance on amazon and
00:58:33.440 it'll be coming out in june 2022 so i'm working hard on it at the moment fantastic well thanks
00:58:38.720 for coming on we're going to do a couple of questions for locals but in the meantime it's
00:58:42.260 been a great pleasure and thank you all for watching and listening at home we will see you
00:58:46.500 very soon with another brilliant episode like this one or a live stream and they all go out
00:58:51.540 at 7 p.m. UK time or 2 p.m. Eastern Standard.
00:58:55.820 Take care and see you soon, guys.
00:58:58.680 We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview.
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