TRIGGERnometry - Sargon of Akkad on Big Government, Immigration and Censorship

00:00:00.000 I think that one of the reasons that people have less faith in experts now is because the experts

00:00:09.000 have essentially been ignoring the conspiracy theories and just censoring them. And when you

00:00:14.360 do that, that makes people think, right, you don't have an answer to this, but you are a tyrant.

00:00:24.580 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:29.000 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:30.400 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:36.040 Our brilliant and returning guest today is a YouTuber and the founder of LotusEaters.com,

00:00:40.980 Carl Benjamin Sargon of Akkad, as you're formerly known. Welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:00:44.500 Thanks so much for having me back. It's a much nicer studio than the previous one.

00:00:47.820 Thank you very much.

00:00:48.860 Lovely, honestly.

00:00:49.620 Not least in part to guests like you who were willing to come on it when it wasn't a very nice studio.

00:00:54.340 And, you know, one of the things that I always really liked about our conversations is I think

00:01:00.160 when you first came on the show, we probably didn't agree on very much. I think we've probably

00:01:04.360 moved somewhat since towards some of the views that you had, or maybe we unearthed some of the

00:01:10.600 views we already had over time. But one of the things I always really appreciated by you is your

00:01:15.460 willingness to engage with people in conversation who have different opinions.

00:01:18.800 Oh, I mean, I think that a lot of disagreement is merely about framing, right? So it seems

00:01:25.480 that if you just learn how to frame things in just, you know, just literally turn the

00:01:30.480 situation around and just frame it in a different way, that you find people actually, things

00:01:34.420 just slot in place and go, actually, no, that is something sensible, right? And so without

00:01:39.640 conversation, you can't do that. And so, and this is one of the things that makes your show

00:01:43.540 great is that you have such a wide variety of people with such radically different views.

00:01:48.220 And yet, you know, you always go away from those conversations with something interesting.

00:01:52.740 Well, speaking of conversations, the last time we spoke was, we're recording this on January

00:01:57.200 the 6th, 2022. The last time we spoke was, I think, January the 6th, 2021.

00:02:05.980 How has it been the year?

00:02:06.360 It was January the 7th, right? It was the day after you had us on your show.

00:02:10.140 That's right.

00:02:10.500 And I think we may have not framed things correctly because your audience really struggled with

00:02:15.560 our moderate point of view.

00:02:16.700 Well, it's, it's about the paradigms you come from, I think, because like, I'm not happy

00:02:24.580 with the sort of mainstream Westminster paradigm that seems to have been, you know, sort of

00:02:29.180 the Blairites paradigm that the, but the all parties seem to be trapped within.

00:02:33.560 What do you mean by that paradigm? Explain that.

00:02:35.720 Yeah. The, the sort of, um, administrative managerial paradigm that sits there and, and looks at

00:02:42.620 the world and says, right, okay, I need to impose a speech code in this way. So someone

00:02:48.440 can't offend someone else and things like this. I think the matter of matters of offense aren't

00:02:52.620 actually anything to do with the state. I think they're to do with the individuals involved

00:02:55.320 because it's also subjective and nothing can be really properly proven that it means it's

00:03:00.100 something that, you know, people should be negotiating for themselves. But the managerial

00:03:04.120 state looks at that and goes, right, there might be harm involved in this. I need to impose a law.

00:03:08.180 I need to impose bureaucrats. I need to impose people who will sit there and start getting

00:03:12.640 involved in the relationships between people. And it's that kind of paradigm where it's, uh,

00:03:17.720 the sort of overarching, um, I don't want to say like big government because it sounds cliche,

00:03:23.920 but the scope of the state is in everything now. And this, I think we see reaching its full,

00:03:30.460 the sort of full blossoming in the COVID crisis where literally there is nothing outside of the

00:03:36.200 purview of the state now. And I've, I'm genuinely worried about where this paradigm is going because

00:03:41.760 I mean, I don't see anything good at the end of it. And I can't see who's happy with the way

00:03:45.820 things are being run at the moment. It's a great point. For example, you look at what's happened

00:03:51.940 to civil liberties right the way through this crisis. They're in the toilet and everyone

00:03:55.900 was kind of went, yeah, we don't need them anymore. Why do you need the ability to protest?

00:03:59.900 What good came of that? Well, as your friend, uh, or former friend, I don't know, put it,

00:04:04.320 uh, why do you need free speech in a pandemic? Yeah. You said that.

00:04:11.620 What kind of question is that? You know, why do you need your inalienable rights? Yeah. Well,

00:04:16.840 I mean, cause they're a part of me, you know, and if you take that away, then you're taking a part of me

00:04:20.780 away, you know, but this, this is the problem though. The, the, the administrative state looks

00:04:25.480 at rights as things that are constructed by the state and therefore can just be taken away by the

00:04:30.520 state at any given time for any given reason. And that really concerns me because that's not like

00:04:35.620 the English view of rights. You know, the English view of rights is that these are ancient and

00:04:40.360 hereditary. I mean, you can look back through any piece of like English constitutional legislation

00:04:45.060 and you'll find the phrase ancient liberties and customs. And it's really weird. Like the

00:04:49.880 Edmund Burke, like essentially came to the conclusion that the English are a dull, sluggish

00:04:53.660 people who have never innovated anything. And because they've always assumed to have everything

00:04:58.780 they needed, like going back to like Saxon times in the woods, you know, and this, this sort of

00:05:04.440 inherited ideal, I mean, at least is tied to something, you know, it's at least tied to something

00:05:09.440 that, you know, we've got 1500 years of English liberty. Okay, great. Now we've got like human

00:05:14.880 rights. Okay. Well, what's that tethered to, you know, what guarantees that I will have the same

00:05:19.880 human rights tomorrow that I had today or that the day after I won't have any human rights at all.

00:05:24.400 You know, it's, it's all bound up in the, the whims of the people who are running the state. And I,

00:05:29.860 I really hate this paradigm, you know, and, and Tony Blair has sort of like snuck it in and

00:05:35.340 reformed our country and the conservatives are just sat with it. And essentially now being

00:05:41.000 buffeted around by the Labour Party on every issue. And it was through the pandemic, it was the most

00:05:46.340 insufferable thing, wasn't it? Boris Johnson was, you know, the, the instinctive sort of the

00:05:50.140 Englishman would be like, we're not going to do that. We're not going to do that. And then Keir

00:05:53.600 Starmer would say, we have to lock down. And the 24 hours later, Boris Johnson, there's going to be a

00:05:58.260 lockdown. It's like, well, there we go. You're the creature of the Labour Party because you're within

00:06:01.240 their paradigm. And so the logic of the paradigm dictates that that's what you have to do.

00:06:05.340 At any given stage. And, but again, like, you know, who put us here? You know, nobody asked for this

00:06:11.020 and how do we escape it? That's the question. And it, that's the worrying point in that there

00:06:15.980 doesn't seem to be any escape where you look through the, the journey that we've had through

00:06:21.740 the lockdowns, the vaccine passports introduced in Scotland and Wales. They're now going to introduce

00:06:27.600 some here. And you think, I didn't sign up for any of this. And not only did I not sign up for any of

00:06:34.780 this, it doesn't fucking work. So why are you introducing it?

00:06:39.100 Can you imagine what William Wallace thinks of the SNP? Can you even imagine? Like the word freedom

00:06:44.900 is just a joke. And I mean, it's, it's mad watching it, isn't it? Like in Wales, you can go to the pub,

00:06:51.920 but you can't go to work. It's like, sorry, whose idea of healthcare is that?

00:06:56.940 The Welshman.

00:06:57.460 Exactly. But that's because it's not tied to anything, is it? You know, it's like the,

00:07:02.220 the whims of this arbitrary state that just lurch from crisis to crisis and make up rules

00:07:06.760 off the top of the head, because now they have absolute power. You know, now they have

00:07:10.460 nothing that restrains them from just being like, right, well, we're going to do that.

00:07:13.640 We're going to do that. We're going to do that. And so you end up with this wild contradictory,

00:07:16.540 like route through the past, like six months. And it feels like you've been doing it for 20 years.

00:07:21.480 You know, it feels like, like just so much time has passed when it's been one year,

00:07:26.620 you know, or two years. And it's like, right, okay, this has got to stop. You know, we need to

00:07:31.200 get some sort of constancy, some sort of level headedness. The government has to understand

00:07:35.740 that there are limits on it. You know, it can't just say, right, all your business is shut down,

00:07:39.880 apart from, you know, Amazon, Tesco, Sainsbury's, small businessman, too bad. You know,

00:07:44.740 you're all locked to your hands. This has got to stop, you know.

00:07:47.260 So Carl, it's interesting what you're talking about that it seems to me is that we seem to have got to

00:07:51.340 a place where if there's a problem, the government is supposed to fix it. And we've forgotten that

00:07:56.320 some problems can't be fixed, some problems can't be fixed by government. And also a lot of the

00:08:00.600 solutions to problems have trade-offs. So yes, you can solve this problem, but you're going to hurt a

00:08:05.160 lot of people over here or take away certain freedoms. And if you embrace that fully, particularly

00:08:10.680 in the pandemic, when there's fear, people are dying, etc. And you don't have those checks and

00:08:16.720 balances of inalienable rights, things that can never be taken away from you, then you end up

00:08:21.340 in the sort of Austrian-German position where it's like, well, these people, these people will stay

00:08:26.620 at home and pay a fine. And it's like, why? When did the government have the authority to put people

00:08:33.640 in their homes and never let them out because they haven't followed government advice?

00:08:37.840 And we're already seeing that. We're already seeing that in France, in Austria, where the

00:08:41.320 unvaccinated, as if that's a constituency, you know, as if there's anything that connects them other

00:08:46.200 than they haven't had a particular injection.

00:08:49.160 You mispronounce it.

00:08:50.480 You mispronounce it.

00:08:50.980 They're unvaccinated.

00:08:51.980 That's how you do it.

00:08:53.080 I think more colloquially, they're just called the Jews. I mean, targeted by the state because

00:08:58.700 they're not obeying the commands of the administrative class that's commanding everything that's going

00:09:04.420 on. And notice how you're exactly right about the trade-offs because in the 20th century,

00:09:12.620 there was a British philosopher called Michael Oakeshott who pointed out that this kind of

00:09:15.860 administrative form of doing politics reduces time to being into the now, you know, and it's

00:09:21.940 always now. And so that turns politics into the politics of a felt need. So whatever is

00:09:26.800 immediately in front of us, oh, we have to do something. And because essentially nothing is out

00:09:32.040 of the scope of the state, that means we can do everything right now. And so, right, lockdown

00:09:37.280 right now. It's like, okay, that's fine. The NHS didn't get overwhelmed. Brilliant. But is that worth

00:09:42.700 tens of thousands of cancer patients who are now going to die of cancer? You know, that seems to be

00:09:47.560 what's, you know, is being revealed from the lockdowns. And so this is one of the trade-offs that

00:09:52.180 you were saying. It's like, okay, well, if we'd taken a slightly longer view of the proceedings and

00:09:58.220 actually been concerned about what was going to happen in a year's time, we would have said,

00:10:02.200 well, we can guarantee that tens of thousands of people will die of preventable diseases that,

00:10:07.800 or possibly preventable, that could have been treated now. But, you know, we were just worried

00:10:12.000 that the NHS would be over. Well, the argument would have been from those people is if the NHS

00:10:16.420 had got overwhelmed, the cancer patients would have died. And also loads of people would have died of

00:10:20.800 COVID and other things too. Possibly. Yeah, possibly. But we don't really know the answer to that.

00:10:25.080 Exactly. And look at the predictions. I mean, we're sitting here in early January. We were told

00:10:29.160 that if no restrictions are imposed in this country in December, there would be 6,000 deaths. I think

00:10:34.980 there was 400. Well, this leads on to another point that Oakeshott make, actually, about the models and

00:10:43.840 the theories and how they match up to the practical reality that we're actually living. Because, I mean,

00:10:49.040 look at the SAGE modelling. The SAGE modelling, you can find the graphs online. They're just so wildly

00:10:54.160 wrong. You know, they're so catastrophically and embarrassingly wrong. You may as well go to

00:10:59.640 predictions from Mystic Meg. You know, these are literally, you know, Russell Grant predictions

00:11:04.640 are more accurate than these models. And yet, you know, these people are still informing government

00:11:10.260 policy. And so you end up in a position where the theory just does not match the reality. It's like,

00:11:14.740 okay, so what are we doing? You know, we're sat in this, we are misinformed by the people who are

00:11:22.180 considered the only legitimate authorities. And, I mean, I'm not saying that I have any authority to

00:11:27.160 inform anyone about anything either. You know, I don't know anything about COVID. I don't know

00:11:31.020 anything about, you know, any of the problems that we're having, really, other than what we

00:11:35.440 can commonly see. But we can see that, like, a bit of prudence, you know, sure, it's scary,

00:11:40.920 and the felt need is, oh God, you know, the NHS is going to be overwhelmed. So be it. You know,

00:11:46.500 so be it. You know, that's not a justification to tyrannize our entire society. I didn't sign up

00:11:51.800 to the glory of the NHS. You know, the NHS is meant to serve us. You know, if the NHS,

00:11:57.020 you know, has problems, then we do our best and muddle through them, you know, which has always

00:12:01.380 been the traditional way that we do. And maybe also it needs more funding. I'm open to that

00:12:05.620 possibility. Well, it's a black hole of funding anyway. It is. But also, I think the problem is

00:12:11.420 capacity. And it's not just at the moment. It's been that way for decades. Every winter,

00:12:16.960 there's a crisis. Well, maybe we need to find some way of not having a crisis every winter,

00:12:21.960 right? I agree. I agree. No, no, I totally agree. And I mean, another problem that we that ties into

00:12:28.040 this is numbers. It's immigration. You know, during 2020, when we're having all the lockdowns,

00:12:33.760 700,000 people came to live in this country. But how did that happen in the middle of a pandemic?

00:12:39.120 You know, when we're all confined to our homes, and why would 700,000 people come to a country

00:12:44.320 that's locked down, you know, and yet this still happened. And so these are, you know,

00:12:48.160 people who can get sick from COVID and then end up in a hospital that they've in a country that

00:12:53.480 they've just arrived in, you know, so they've contributed nothing to the system. The system

00:12:57.040 is not prepared for these extra numbers. And so we end up again in crisis after crisis after crisis

00:13:02.860 with no end in sight. And it's the paradigm that we're in that's creating the problems.

00:13:07.880 And it's like, okay, well, I mean, what's the solution? You know,

00:13:12.040 but there is no solution. And the problem as well is the government's attitude, which

00:13:15.960 what you're talking about, which is a reactive one, it's not a proactive, it's completely reactive.

00:13:21.920 The thing that I find worrying as well is that encourages a passivity in people.

00:13:26.760 Yeah, they're very passive. And they it's not anymore about, you know, so solving your problems,

00:13:31.680 thinking about how you're going to improve your life, you look to government to solve it.

00:13:36.540 And once that happens, you we're in a really, really dark place because people give up agency.

00:13:44.200 Well, you're not really free, are you? Yeah, that's the problem. And what's worse is that

00:13:48.040 you've given up your agency to an institution that is not capable of looking out for your future,

00:13:53.620 because they're too busy panicking about the problem of the day. And so, okay, this is going to

00:13:59.280 end badly, isn't it? It feels like a car that's about to crash. Every day, it feels like we're in

00:14:04.300 a car that's about to crash. And so the problem, I think, is that the government do know what to do.

00:14:12.020 They are just essentially so henpecked by the people who support the Blairite paradigm,

00:14:19.120 that they feel they can't step outside of it, which is very bizarre, because I think a lot of

00:14:23.480 people in this country do want to step outside of this paradigm. I mean, for example, the government

00:14:27.620 could just say, well, look, we're just going to have to reduce the number of people who come here.

00:14:31.200 You know, this is just one of those things. If we want to save the NHS, this is an inevitable thing.

00:14:35.120 Or we continue to just pour money down the black hole that might not even be a success. You know,

00:14:40.920 we're assuming that just simply more money, more money is going to solve the problem. Whereas in

00:14:45.080 fact, it's just the numbers of people trying to access this service that's, you know, overwhelming it.

00:14:50.340 And so, okay, well, that's one thing they could do. But you know that tomorrow, if they came out and said,

00:14:54.200 look, we're just going to, for the next five years, just refuse visas, you know, you could, I'm sure

00:14:59.260 they've got a website where it's like, apply for your visa here. And if they just took that down and

00:15:02.660 said, sorry, we're not receiving applications for visas at the moment. Nobody's human rights are

00:15:06.520 violated. Nobody gets hurt. Nothing changes. Nobody's, you know, nothing wrong happens, except that would

00:15:12.300 be advantageous to the country and the NHS.

00:15:14.940 I think it's probably a little bit extreme in the sense that that would actually, you know, there are some

00:15:19.720 people who are coming into the country who need to come into the country that benefits this country

00:15:24.260 as well.

00:15:24.740 Hang on a second. Hang on a second. Like, this is one of those trade-offs though, because sure,

00:15:28.880 there are, there are going to be like, you know, GDP benefits and things like that.

00:15:32.180 No, no, no. That's not what I mean. I mean, there are people who are coming here to, to be top

00:15:36.020 level doctors who are going to work in the NHS. What I'm saying is, I'm not saying reducing

00:15:41.260 immigration is not a worthy goal. I think it has been too high since the Blair period. I always,

00:15:46.320 when people say, who's responsible for Brexit, quote unquote, I say Tony Blair. He made it,

00:15:51.060 right? But what, what I think, in my opinion, you need, which is actually the Brexit argument,

00:15:56.140 ironically, which I voted remain in, is you need an immigration system that is, that is calibrated

00:16:02.580 to the needs of the host country. That means you get to choose how many people come, what their

00:16:07.060 skills are, what they're going to do here, et cetera. And then you can have the number of people

00:16:11.740 that you need to come in and do the things that you want them to do, that you allow them to do,

00:16:15.860 rather than just saying we're not letting anyone in.

00:16:17.840 Well, I mean, I'm honestly, I'm of the opinion now that maybe a zero in policy is actually what

00:16:24.280 we need, because it's not just the material needs of the country that are at issue here.

00:16:31.640 There, there are genuine social problems. There's a widespread, I think, problem of alienation.

00:16:36.680 And I think the next census is going to show us just how deeply that's going to cut.

00:16:42.180 What do you mean by alienation, Carl?

00:16:44.080 As in the English people thinking they're no longer at home in England, because you can

00:16:48.800 look at cities like Birmingham, where we're waiting for this latest census. But I found

00:16:55.100 the, the Birmingham council's data on children in their schools, and they happen to have an

00:17:00.220 ethnic breakdown of children in their schools. And only a third of them are English. And so

00:17:05.340 now you've got London and Birmingham, which are the two largest cities in England, that are

00:17:09.420 majority non-English. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with immigrants or anything

00:17:13.880 like that. But I'm saying it's a bit of a strange state of affairs when that's the case. And if I

00:17:18.520 went to other countries and found, if I went to Nigeria and found that Nigeria's major cities were

00:17:23.620 populated with Chinese people, I would wonder why.

00:17:26.640 They'll just be the ones running it, mate.

00:17:31.500 I, I, I, that's the thing. I, I, I would understand that the Nigerians would feel a sense of alienation

00:17:37.140 from their own civilization.

00:17:38.700 But, but what I'm saying to you, Carl, and this is why I'm pushing back on you is I understand that

00:17:43.220 concern. I do understand that concern. And, uh, it's uncomfortable for people to hear, but I, I understand

00:17:50.160 the concern. What I'm saying though, is I think the reaction that I, to me, reducing immigration to zero

00:17:57.120 would be an overreaction, the trade-offs of which would hurt this country.

00:18:01.820 Well, what, what do you think the trade-offs would be?

00:18:03.760 Uh, first of all, a lot of people who come here on visas come here for only a few months to do a

00:18:08.820 particular job. People from abroad to come and, you know, do a trade delegation or whatever, all that

00:18:13.160 sort of thing. Uh, there are also people who come here and contribute, start businesses as I have,

00:18:18.240 et cetera. And I would like to think my contribution as an immigrant to this country is not only in the

00:18:23.440 taxes that I've paid. And so there are people who will come and contribute. They will come and invent

00:18:28.180 things. They will come and create things that will be huge benefits. Um, and so to lose, if you had an

00:18:34.060 immigration, look, when I came to this country in 1995, 3% of the British public thought that

00:18:39.520 immigration was a major issue. 3%. Why? Because immigration was about 30 or 40,000 people a year.

00:18:46.060 That was manageable. That people could integrate. People could learn the language. People could fit

00:18:50.920 in. People didn't end up in a, in a ghetto of their own community. Uh, what we've seen is that

00:18:57.080 when you have levels of immigration, like we've had since hundreds of thousands every year,

00:19:01.580 that has a detrimental effect. To me, it's about scale. Uh, and I'm wary of the, the overreaction,

00:19:08.760 uh, of the, that what we need is to just go, okay, that's it. I think there are some,

00:19:13.680 there's some trade-offs at that extreme end that are not going to be good for this country.

00:19:18.500 I don't really see why this is a major concern though, right? I'm not, I'm not suggesting that

00:19:25.820 we should remove anyone who's here or anything like that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And, and I,

00:19:30.120 and I totally, no, actually, uh, I totally wouldn't obviously, um, because it, wouldn't you?

00:19:36.860 No, absolutely not. He would. Yeah, I would. I, I, I think that there's extra strength in the

00:19:43.180 immigrant who is also the patriot, right? And you see this with like Eric Zamora in, in France at

00:19:47.900 the moment. He's, his family are Algerian Jews and he is the most patriotic of the current candidates

00:19:54.860 for the presidency of France and arguing most strongly from like traditional French perspectives,

00:20:00.080 uh, from them in order to make his points because he's, he, he obviously loves the country,

00:20:05.440 right? And you, you, you obviously like, you know, really love the place. No, but, but we don't want

00:20:09.560 to deport or not deport people based on their beliefs, right? So you don't want to deport anyone.

00:20:13.100 No, no, I don't want to deport anyone. And I, I wouldn't want the state to become intrusive like

00:20:17.400 that. One of the, one of the main problems I have with the COVID problems is that the state has become

00:20:21.880 unbelievably intrusive and I can't stand the idea of the state being intrusive, but there are just

00:20:26.640 normal bureaucratic things that we can do. We can just have a five-year moratorium on immigration,

00:20:30.800 as in we just say, sorry, we're not giving out visas because I mean, we've, we've literally had

00:20:34.980 tens of millions of immigrants come into the country. And I mean, even in small. Tens of

00:20:40.720 millions. Yeah. When, in what period? Uh, since 1997. We've had tens of millions. Are you sure?

00:20:46.740 Yeah. I think it's probably in the, I think it was about 15 million, something like that now.

00:20:51.640 Since 1997. Yeah. It's a huge, I mean, we had 700,000 last year, you know, it's, it's, it's a huge.

00:20:59.460 Are you talking net or, or, or just people coming in? Gross. Gross. So, but the population of this

00:21:05.520 country is not increased by anything like that in this time. Well, I don't know. We, we actually

00:21:10.220 don't know. I mean, like Sainsbury's thought that we were feeding 80 million people. Um, because we

00:21:15.160 don't know about, you know, illegal immigration, obviously. And in the, in 2011, it was something

00:21:19.480 like 68 million, but I'm, I'm sure it's going to be probably around 75 million now. Uh, that it's

00:21:25.780 just been a huge number of people, you know? And so it's like, right. We, I mean, even if I'm

00:21:30.600 overestimating it, it's still one of those things that you can see. Like I walk around my town of

00:21:35.900 Swindon now, and I can see that it's different. Like after, after Christmas, I went to the local

00:21:42.020 shopping center and I swear to God, half of the people in there were foreign and not native,

00:21:48.460 like native born people from somewhere else, you know, from a foreign descent, but people

00:21:52.300 with strange accents speaking in strange languages. And I was feeling this sense of alienation

00:21:56.520 that I hear about from lots of people around the country. And so it, I'm not, you know, we,

00:22:01.020 we don't need to do anything other than just say, well, look, we, we can just for five years

00:22:05.800 refuse visas. We don't need to give visas to foreigners. Um, we can, I think, surmount the

00:22:11.320 problems that you're bringing up from within. I don't think that we have to look elsewhere.

00:22:15.740 And I'm actually a bit wary of the, well, why don't we get doctors from some other country?

00:22:21.420 Because it feels, it feels like an inversion of the sort of colonial argument where it's

00:22:27.160 like, well, we'll, we'll just take their resources. Cause that Indian doctor who was born and raised

00:22:31.780 in India, trained in India was born and raised and trained in Indian resources, resources.

00:22:36.560 I don't think we have a right to. And then, so if we're like, yeah, but we can pay three times

00:22:40.420 more than you can get in India, he's naturally inclined to come over. And so that's essentially

00:22:44.620 us taking a good doctor from India where I'm sure they need good doctors in India.

00:22:49.000 No, that's a good argument.

00:22:50.020 And I'm sure that we can train.

00:22:51.260 It's a good argument. The thing I would disagree with you very strongly and just give you a

00:22:55.340 personal example is you said no one gets hurt. Well, that's not true. If you don't allow people

00:22:59.700 to come for, for example, my wife is about, we're about to have our first child, right? My,

00:23:04.540 my in-laws might want to come and see their grandson. Uh, my, my family might want to come and see.

00:23:09.800 I'm not, I'm not saying people can't visit.

00:23:11.700 You said no visas.

00:23:13.340 Yeah, but a residential visa.

00:23:15.500 Ah, okay.

00:23:16.120 As in, we don't give citizenship to families.

00:23:17.100 Oh, right, right, right. Okay. So basically you can come and visit.

00:23:19.860 Well, of course, yeah, yeah, of course.

00:23:21.820 Fuck it, I'll come.

00:23:22.680 Let's get rid of the tourism industry.

00:23:25.080 Let's get rid of that.

00:23:25.660 We just spent 15 minutes arguing about something based on a misunderstanding.

00:23:28.820 I did wonder why you were quite so angry.

00:23:30.780 Yeah, I was like, hang on a second.

00:23:32.060 Well, not allow anyone to come in, really?

00:23:33.760 No, no, no. I'm not thinking about building a wall.

00:23:34.800 What you're saying is you don't want anyone coming here for permanent settlement.

00:23:40.240 Yes.

00:23:40.760 Okay.

00:23:41.100 Sorry, I should have been more clear about that.

00:23:43.540 Yeah, I, yeah.

00:23:43.780 Because when you say visas, that includes tourism and all that stuff.

00:23:46.540 Sorry, yeah, I, yeah, I should have been more clear about that.

00:23:47.560 Okay, great.

00:23:48.420 You've just wasted 15 minutes of your time listening to people argue about something that they actually misunderstood.

00:23:52.920 Yeah, sorry about that.

00:23:55.000 Because, like, we've got a genuine housing crisis as well at the moment.

00:23:58.500 I mean, and all of the problems that we're having, honestly, seem to stem from just an excess number of people.

00:24:04.320 But that's part of it.

00:24:05.800 But there's also a large part of the housing crisis, Carl, is corruption.

00:24:09.620 Oh, yeah.

00:24:09.760 And it's corruption in the housing industry.

00:24:12.940 It's the fact that the, you know, councils, well, companies, you know, what they do is a drip, drip, drip of building houses

00:24:20.520 because that way you can sell them for far more money.

00:24:23.700 Nobody's doing anything about it.

00:24:25.340 And, well, I mean, another problem is allowing non-British people and companies, you know, agents to purchase land in Britain.

00:24:36.640 I mean, why are Russian oligarchs able to buy up tracts of London?

00:24:40.280 Why are Saudi oil farmers?

00:24:41.480 Because it's our God-given right to buy property in London.

00:24:44.360 Exactly, right.

00:24:45.040 And before Thatcher and Reagan, it just wasn't allowed.

00:24:48.080 You know, you just don't allow foreigners to buy up your country.

00:24:50.940 And it's like, well.

00:24:51.480 The Swiss don't allow it.

00:24:52.680 And why should they?

00:24:53.400 You know, it's very much a neoliberal way of thinking.

00:24:57.360 And I'm not a neoliberal.

00:24:58.480 So I'm just like, okay, well, then why would I allow that?

00:25:00.700 And, you know, I would totally understand any country saying, well, look, like this is one of the things that predatory capitalism does.

00:25:07.880 This is what Chiquita did in Guatemala.

00:25:10.420 They basically bought up half the country.

00:25:12.420 And it's like, okay, well, now they were called the octopus because they owned everything.

00:25:15.600 They had their tentacles and everything.

00:25:16.760 And, you know, you've got to take a more broad and deep view of what's going on.

00:25:23.440 And so I'm not, you know, there are things that we should be doing that we're not doing.

00:25:30.660 And they exacerbate the problems that we're having.

00:25:33.120 And it's outside of the Blairite sort of neoliberal paradigm that the solutions are found.

00:25:37.820 And yet the media, the activists and all of the parties are essentially trapped within this paradigm.

00:25:43.200 And nobody seems to be willing to be like, okay, well, we could just stop giving out citizenship.

00:25:50.060 You know, people can still come visit, obviously.

00:25:52.740 But, you know, we don't have to allow 700,000 people a year to become citizens.

00:25:58.440 It doesn't have to be the case.

00:25:59.980 And so that saves us a lot of trouble, you know, in the future.

00:26:03.180 And we know that this isn't something that is, let me from the, we also know that a lot of people leave, right?

00:26:14.860 And so if the problem is, well, too many people have come in, the infrastructure is under too much pressure.

00:26:19.700 Well, there are people who are just here temporarily.

00:26:22.140 They only come here temporarily.

00:26:23.400 And then they personally leave.

00:26:25.020 If we're not allowing loads of more people in, then the problem solves itself in effect.

00:26:29.840 You know, and you don't have to do anything.

00:26:31.160 You know, you don't have to be invasive, you know, because the last thing I want is an invasive state.

00:26:35.420 But there has to be a solution to these problems.

00:26:38.800 Hi, Francis.

00:26:39.860 Do you have your own business?

00:26:41.820 No.

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00:27:52.740 Where I'm with you is I personally am in favour of the Swiss model.

00:27:57.340 I don't understand why people from abroad, companies from abroad can come in, buy huge swathes of London and that is deemed to be fine.

00:28:07.140 And then the government does nothing to solve the housing crisis on a multitude of different levels.

00:28:12.920 And it's just worsened and it's just deepened.

00:28:16.100 So I am with you on that.

00:28:17.580 Well, one interesting thing I learned the other day is that 30% of the Conservative Party's funding comes from housing developers.

00:28:23.960 Which is why there's so many new builds.

00:28:26.380 And I see this all around the West Country, where I live, is constantly, oh, well, there are going to be, you know, a thousand new houses built there.

00:28:32.520 But that's our countryside that we're building over to house foreigners.

00:28:37.740 You know, I'm sorry, I don't really want to do that.

00:28:39.380 Really? It's not just to house foreigners, though, is it, Carl?

00:28:42.460 It's to house...

00:28:44.340 Well, yeah, but the British population isn't growing.

00:28:47.040 Like, we've got a sub-replacement rate population.

00:28:49.260 It's something like 1.6, I think, is our population replacement rate.

00:28:52.420 So if we had no immigration, then we would have decreasing housing prices.

00:28:57.460 Because there'd be houses that were just available.

00:29:00.460 Because there wouldn't be enough people to fill them.

00:29:02.640 So the fact that we have 700,000 people come here a year is why we have such a problem with houses.

00:29:10.240 But it's also, as well, the fact that we also have an aging population.

00:29:13.860 And we do need younger people to come in to do the work, etc., etc.

00:29:18.620 You're smiling.

00:29:19.460 I am smiling because, doesn't that feel a bit vampiric?

00:29:24.260 We need to steal your youth to look after our old people.

00:29:28.380 I mean, it's not the worst thing we do, let's be fair.

00:29:30.260 It's not!

00:29:31.040 But, again, it's got that kind of imperial vibe about it, right?

00:29:36.860 As in, we're not doing what we should be doing to maintain ourselves.

00:29:40.840 We're looking at other people who are doing that thing.

00:29:43.140 And we're like, yeah, we just have the money and the resource and the prestige to steal your thing.

00:29:48.640 And it's like, is that right?

00:29:49.980 And then what happens?

00:29:50.840 But the thing is, hang on.

00:29:51.780 I'll push back on you.

00:29:52.660 Is it stealing?

00:29:53.840 Is it really stealing?

00:29:55.140 Kind of is.

00:29:55.720 Or are you just offering someone an opportunity to better their life?

00:30:00.340 Yeah, but you are leveraging a superior position over their position, right?

00:30:05.140 But then the question is, what stops them from just following in our footsteps?

00:30:09.540 You know, what stops them?

00:30:10.260 Oh, they do.

00:30:11.060 Ukrainians go to Poland to work and Polish people come here to work.

00:30:13.980 But the problem with the demographic issue is that we're not having enough children because we're enjoying our material comforts too much.

00:30:22.580 But what stops them from doing the same thing?

00:30:24.580 Because they come here, they work for a few years, they become prosperous.

00:30:27.660 They're like, yeah, no, I'm going to just follow the same example.

00:30:30.200 And so, you know, they are like, well, now we need to get someone else's children to come over and look after me as an old person, you know?

00:30:39.480 And so it doesn't solve the problem.

00:30:41.180 It actually turns us into a bit of a sort of black hole of lineages, you know, where it's like, this is where your grandchildren come not to have grandchildren.

00:30:50.840 But isn't the problem?

00:30:52.320 Is this right, you know?

00:30:53.420 Is this what we want for our civilization?

00:30:55.760 And I'm really glad we're having this conversation because it's something that you would never see on any mainstream platform, really, especially done to this detail.

00:31:04.220 But isn't what you're really talking about, Carl, the problems of globalization?

00:31:07.700 I think the problems are the problems of the Enlightenment, actually, as a philosophical movement.

00:31:18.620 The problem is every standard is a material standard.

00:31:23.500 None of the standards are something immaterial.

00:31:27.120 For example, like happiness has been equated with material pleasure, right?

00:31:31.040 And physical pleasure as well.

00:31:33.140 Well, that's what I mean, physical pleasure.

00:31:34.520 You know, happiness is equated with taking drugs, playing a video game, you know, drinking, you know, whatever it is.

00:31:40.320 Sex.

00:31:41.020 Sex.

00:31:41.520 Very much sex.

00:31:42.140 Well done, mate.

00:31:42.680 Yeah.

00:31:43.160 No, no, no, I forgot that.

00:31:44.740 But it's not equated...

00:31:46.060 You have been married for a long time.

00:31:47.320 I have, yeah.

00:31:47.800 But it's not being equated with the general sense of well-being you have of being satisfied with your life.

00:31:55.200 And who can say that?

00:31:56.440 They've got that.

00:31:57.160 You know, how many young people today are looking at the world and being like, yeah, I'm quite satisfied on the path I'm on.

00:32:01.800 They're all depressed.

00:32:02.860 You know, look at depression drug taking and things like this.

00:32:05.800 Like, we are creating a world for ourselves that we're becoming deeply unhappy in, and we don't understand why we're deeply unhappy.

00:32:12.640 And we're becoming increasingly more atomized, addicted to our phones, and we're building a trap, a prison for ourselves, in which we're going to just keep killing ourselves, frankly.

00:32:23.420 Because, I mean, you look at the suicide rates, and it's just like, right, okay, we need to reassess what it is to be a human being.

00:32:29.620 And I think the enlightenment paradigm of just having a materialistic frame is not sufficient.

00:32:35.200 You know, this is the incompleteness of this paradigm.

00:32:38.160 And so I'm not saying that it's bad.

00:32:39.880 It's been wonderful to do as Francis Bacon wanted and to relieve man's estate, because it used to be really bad.

00:32:46.560 You know, but now, I mean, I can't even imagine.

00:32:48.860 I went to a Victorian hospital in London with my wife, because she's fascinated with all this stuff.

00:32:54.520 And they were telling us about how they didn't have antiseptic and painkillers and things like that.

00:32:59.780 And so, you know, here's some whiskey, hold him down, boys, and then we'll get that leg off or something.

00:33:05.720 And it's like, oh, my God.

00:33:07.040 So everything that's happened, great.

00:33:09.820 But that was 150 years ago.

00:33:11.940 And now we're at a point where we're trying to solve problems that we ourselves have created.

00:33:18.260 You know, these aren't problems that we've inherited from nature and the fact that we, you know, we get pain and infections and things.

00:33:24.020 Now we've created a world for ourselves that is making us depressed.

00:33:27.220 And so it's like, right, okay, we need to look into this.

00:33:30.240 And I actually think that ties into the demographic problem.

00:33:33.680 We've totally devalued the institution of marriage and parenthood.

00:33:38.860 And there's a lot of human meaning in it, you know, like it's, it's, I'm, I'm very happy with my life because I have children, because I'm married, because every day I come home from work and my boy's like, daddy, and comes over and gives me a big hug.

00:33:53.340 My, my one-year-old, he sits there bouncing up and down with his little fat cheeks bouncing.

00:33:57.600 And he's thrilled to see me.

00:33:58.540 And honestly, I would be so terribly depressed if this wasn't my life, you know.

00:34:04.380 Okay, so isn't the problem, Carl, and I'm going to be, go very left wing here.

00:34:09.160 Go on.

00:34:09.940 Isn't it capitalism, the problem, what you're talking about?

00:34:12.920 This excessive consumption, the idea that the acquirement of material goods, material possession will lead to happiness, when the reality is we all know that that happiness is not found in that particular place.

00:34:25.440 I would just pick up one point there.

00:34:26.940 The thing is, I think you're absolutely right, but I don't think we all know that.

00:34:29.700 I think actually most of us are brainwashed into not acknowledging that fact.

00:34:33.700 I think that any, anything that follows from capitalism arrives at that same point.

00:34:41.520 Look at, look at what the communist ideal is meant to be.

00:34:45.160 It's meant to be a point at which nobody wants for anything, you know.

00:34:48.080 And so everyone has everything that they'll ever want at all times, which means a bunch of sort of bug men sat in the metaverse, you know, constantly consuming their Soma and eating their bug burgers and things like that.

00:34:59.540 You know, well, they're just, you know, like the fat people from WALL-E, you know, whereas that's where the communists are going to take us with super abundance.

00:35:07.720 Okay, but that's not virtuous, isn't it?

00:35:10.380 You know, they're not good and virtuous and happy people.

00:35:12.540 They're just people who are constantly enjoying or suffering from chemical pleasures in their head.

00:35:18.460 And it's like, look, that's not what a human being should be.

00:35:21.000 That's not a good outcome.

00:35:22.260 And so capitalism is doing that.

00:35:24.540 But any other sort of post, you know, enlightenment system, like, you know, socialism, communism, will aim for that as well.

00:35:31.260 And the problem is aiming for that is actually, I think, unhealthy for us.

00:35:35.400 And we should just change directions.

00:35:38.520 Okay, well, why can't we aim more for wholesome communities, you know, where, because we get countries like Poland that start introducing pro-family policies.

00:35:49.600 And if you go about 50 years, it's unthinkable that we'd have anything other than a pro-family policy.

00:35:53.660 Because families are the bedrock of what a civilization is.

00:35:56.800 They're what maintains the continuum through time for producing new generations.

00:36:01.340 And we've severed that, you know, we've been like, ah, well, we need to focus excessively on the margins, you know.

00:36:07.000 We need to focus excessively on those sort of, you know, the activists and the, you know, gay rights activists and things like this.

00:36:13.800 It's like, okay, but what are they doing for the future, you know?

00:36:18.000 It's like they're not producing succeeding generations.

00:36:20.560 And so, you know, why are they given focus, you know?

00:36:24.500 It's interesting that you make this point, Carl, because with my wife being pregnant now.

00:36:28.440 Congratulations.

00:36:28.940 Thank you.

00:36:29.480 And we've obviously put it off until fairly late, later in life.

00:36:34.300 But as that process goes on, I think about this stuff more and more.

00:36:40.500 And I, you know, the people that I know mostly or a lot are comedians in London who live four to a flat.

00:36:48.140 And mostly they're not really coping with life.

00:36:51.100 And then they're not really, they're not even.

00:36:52.500 Come on, mate, chill out.

00:36:53.340 Come on.

00:36:55.160 Being personally attacked.

00:36:56.500 Sorry, mate.

00:36:57.440 Two to a flat, I think you'll find.

00:36:59.480 Two to a flat, plus I stay here sometimes.

00:37:01.520 It's the hoisy-toisy.

00:37:02.280 I'm not talking about Francis, actually.

00:37:03.860 I think Francis is kind of across a lot of this stuff, really.

00:37:07.160 And he's always been thinking about it quite deeply.

00:37:09.260 But a lot of people, young people now in society live these lives where, as you say, it's material pleasures.

00:37:17.880 It's, you know, going out, getting drunk, going to a show.

00:37:20.680 And these are all great things, by the way.

00:37:22.200 Having a drink with your mates and going to, they're all great.

00:37:25.180 But they don't nourish you from within.

00:37:27.020 They don't give you that deep satisfaction.

00:37:29.980 And we somehow got to a position, like, I get this, like, cringe when you mention pro-family.

00:37:36.380 Because I think Poland, Hungary, these, like, you know, these super, like, you know, I don't even know what the right word is.

00:37:43.420 I know what you mean.

00:37:44.200 You know what I mean?

00:37:44.740 Like, it's weird and old-fashioned and uncool and not, it's not, how to put it, like, it's not going to set the world on fire.

00:37:57.140 No.

00:37:57.500 Right?

00:37:57.760 It's not exciting.

00:37:58.600 No.

00:37:58.780 It's not progress.

00:38:00.380 No.

00:38:00.560 You know, like, in inverted commas.

00:38:02.360 It's not progress.

00:38:03.220 Yeah.

00:38:03.380 But it is wholesome and it does make people, you know, appreciate their position in the world.

00:38:09.500 Rather than constantly being depressed, I'm, you know, posting on Twitter, I'm depressed, I'm depressed.

00:38:13.660 Okay, well, take some more medication, I guess.

00:38:15.460 You know, what are your options here, you know?

00:38:17.120 Right.

00:38:17.600 And, yeah.

00:38:18.540 Because you're not living a life that produces something else.

00:38:22.180 Yeah.

00:38:22.440 And you can't not be that way if all you do is go on Twitter and go out and get drunk and whatever.

00:38:27.720 You are the accumulation of your habits.

00:38:30.080 It's interesting.

00:38:30.640 You are the things that you do over time.

00:38:31.600 It's very interesting.

00:38:32.300 So, you talk about the Enlightenment.

00:38:34.440 The reason it's interesting to me is because there are cultures that do this differently.

00:38:38.240 Right?

00:38:38.720 Japan, for example.

00:38:39.620 I have a friend who I went to school with.

00:38:42.060 He's of Korean descent.

00:38:43.880 Third generation living in Japan.

00:38:47.180 His grandfather came to Japan from Korea, made a business, made a life, was very successful,

00:38:51.780 could afford to send all their kids to an English boarding school.

00:38:55.780 They're not Japanese.

00:38:57.280 They haven't got Japanese passports.

00:38:58.920 You know, Japan made a very clear decision that they want to keep their country the way that it is.

00:39:05.400 And, you know, you can take whatever view of that that you want.

00:39:10.560 Maybe you think that's racist or wrong or whatever.

00:39:13.240 But this is what I'm getting at is why is it that here in the West we are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of preserving what you have, maybe to the exclusion of others?

00:39:24.500 Is it colonialism?

00:39:26.840 Is it art history that you sort of, well, we came over there, now you're allowed to come over here?

00:39:31.460 Is it that?

00:39:32.080 Like, what is it?

00:39:33.520 I mean, I think it's probably a combination of all of those things.

00:39:35.800 But I think that at base, it begins and ends with Enlightenment philosophy.

00:39:40.700 I think that the Enlightenment has a constituency, holds rational thoughts to be the key component of any decision-making process.

00:39:52.500 And it's like, sure.

00:39:53.620 But actually, in reality, most of our decisions are not made through reflection.

00:39:58.520 Most of them are habitual.

00:39:59.680 You know, I got up, I went to the cupboard, I poured myself a bowl of cereal, and I didn't think about it at all.

00:40:05.140 I just did it.

00:40:05.860 Every day I do it.

00:40:06.880 And, you know, but there's a good reason because I'm hungry.

00:40:08.640 You know, I need to get my breakfast.

00:40:10.100 And so this constituency of rational agents is universal because every human is a rational agent.

00:40:18.480 And so it becomes so outward-looking that it essentially demands an imperial perspective,

00:40:24.080 where now I've claimed all of humanity as being part of my constituency.

00:40:28.880 But they're not.

00:40:29.700 You know, there are people all around the world who don't agree with the way that we do things

00:40:33.380 and don't want to be part of us, and yet we're laying claim to them anyway.

00:40:36.960 You can think, right, you're ours.

00:40:38.340 It's like, well, hang on a second.

00:40:39.760 That's a bit arrogant, isn't it?

00:40:40.840 You know, I mean, that's a bit presumptuous.

00:40:44.220 And we could look at it through what I suppose we'll just call the traditional lens for now,

00:40:50.580 which is the continuum of our civilization and the accumulation of any sort of inherited wisdom through time.

00:40:58.040 And suddenly you get a much more, like, parochial and particular perspective.

00:41:04.640 You think, okay, well, actually, it's not my job to solve problems all around the world.

00:41:09.040 It's my job to make sure that my kids have got a safe environment to live in and go to school and get enough to eat.

00:41:14.720 And, you know, that I'm kind to my neighbors.

00:41:16.420 And so it's a much more sort of relational world.

00:41:19.900 You've got to have a direct relationship in some way.

00:41:22.540 And it might just be like, you know, I'm in a country with Scottish people in the highlands.

00:41:26.600 But if something were to go terribly wrong in Scotland, I would contribute to the charity fund, you know,

00:41:33.040 because I view them as my countrymen, because that's what we are.

00:41:35.500 Whereas, sorry, if something happens, you know, in the jungles of South America, well, it's not really my problem, you know.

00:41:41.620 And, you know, I know that they have people down there who are close to them, who have relations with them, who will help them out, you know.

00:41:47.820 And I assume the goodness of human nature that that will be the case.

00:41:51.880 And at the end of the day, ultimately, if something were to happen that, you know, desperately needed help,

00:41:56.360 I'm not above or against helping them or anything like that.

00:41:58.520 I'm just saying, like, it's the charity begins at home mentality.

00:42:02.360 You know, your affections begin with those things closest to you and radiate outwards rather than abstracting to everything at all times.

00:42:12.860 You know, and it's this rationalistic view of the world that's very thin and totally universal and also can only recognize that which is common to mankind, right?

00:42:24.840 And this is exactly, this is what Scruton pointed out about the Europeans.

00:42:28.680 They went around the world and they're like, oh, wow, look, men everywhere have common things about them.

00:42:33.640 You know, they're all, they'll eat, they'll have, you know, I was going to say two sexes, but dare I say that.

00:42:42.020 But they've all got, they've all got, there's a string that unites all of humanity in these commonalities.

00:42:46.320 But to do that, you have to abstract away from those things that make them different.

00:42:50.400 And those things that make us different are the inherited traditions that we've had, the unthinking but reflected in us, you know, and Francis, you're, you're a great example of this, actually, right?

00:43:00.440 You know, you, you're an Englishman, you know, you've got particular cultural traits, you've got values, you've got beliefs that Constantine, as a Russian, doesn't have.

00:43:09.160 But, I mean, I'm not saying you can't be friends or anything like that, obviously, blah, blah, blah.

00:43:11.760 We can't.

00:43:12.380 But the point is that there are differences between that you both recognise, you know, and it's respect for the differences.

00:43:18.520 It's absolutely true.

00:43:19.580 It's absolutely true.

00:43:20.500 And so, and these differences are particular, you know, and so it's that view of the differences being important rather than the universal nature of mankind being the only thing that's important that I think is the bifurcation.

00:43:33.380 And we've arrived at the universal managerial state that just doesn't recognise that there are these accumulated cultural habits and it's destroying them.

00:43:45.400 You know, it doesn't recognise that it's destroying them as it allows hundreds of thousands of people to come here, as it legislates from an ivory tower over the norms of our local civilisations, you know.

00:43:58.840 And, and I can't remember where I was going with this point.

00:44:01.520 Well, I think, like, this is what I think the problem is.

00:44:03.760 No, no, that makes sense.

00:44:04.600 I think the thing that strikes me about what you're saying is, and I, I can chart this because in some ways it charts my, the changes of my thinking as maybe I've got older, as maybe as we've done the show, I talk to different people.

00:44:19.120 But I think there was some kind of point where we suddenly decided that progress was the only value that we should have.

00:44:27.360 And the entirety of our existence is about unshackling ourselves from the former traditions, which, which, of course, they were more sexist and more racist and more this and more that than, than what we are now.

00:44:43.260 And so our job is not to live lives of meaning and purpose and, and to do things, and yes, to improve as we, as we can.

00:44:51.780 Our job is to become the most advanced progressive people ever.

00:44:56.360 Our job is to unshackle and unburden ourselves from these traditions, which are all about oppression and dominance and all of that.

00:45:03.720 No, that's not our job anymore.

00:45:04.940 Our job now is to do everything we can to overthrow the restrictive patriarchal norms of the past.

00:45:13.620 And in, in our addiction to this progress, I think the point we've got to is we've started to forget some very basic things about human biology, about the need for human beings.

00:45:25.140 You know, what we are is we're communal apes with, with smartphones.

00:45:28.220 Yeah.

00:45:28.400 We need the, the little community that we have.

00:45:31.420 We need to have children and grandparents and grandchildren and all of these things that actually give our lives meaning.

00:45:36.720 But no, we're, we're more interested in repainting crossings and transgender rainbow flags or whatever, because that's what we think is the purpose of our lives.

00:45:46.620 But notice where progress is going, right?

00:45:51.020 Like they always say, oh, well, it's progress.

00:45:52.640 Okay, well, that sounds good, you know, but to where?

00:45:56.060 Like if you're going to go, you've got to have a destination.

00:45:59.260 And so what's the destination?

00:46:00.520 Because you're exactly as, exactly as you're framing it, they, they are acting as if our minds are being imprisoned in our bodies, you know, as if our consciousness is being oppressed by our material self.

00:46:14.960 And it's like, okay, but that's lunacy.

00:46:17.540 You know, I mean, like, I'm, I'm not a science expert, but as I understand it, the consciousness is a product of the body.

00:46:24.560 Like, so you, you can't say, ah, my consciousness is being generated by my body.

00:46:29.300 It's not being oppressed by my body.

00:46:31.300 No, that's not how that works.

00:46:33.040 Surely, you know, that, that seems to be insane and therefore justifies you doing anything to your body in order to appease the consciousness.

00:46:41.660 And it seems to be back to front, you know, as in you, you need to come to terms with what you are in the world, you know, you're, you're, you know, and everyone like used to have to do this.

00:46:54.600 You don't, you, as you, you're young and you sought to be a particular thing, but it turned out you weren't that particular thing.

00:47:00.140 And so, okay, what am I, you know, what are my strengths?

00:47:02.880 What are my weaknesses?

00:47:04.000 You know, you, and then, then you send to yourself and you become accepting of your position and you, you know, become a proper human being rather than some lunatic on Twitter who has lots of stuff in their bio that makes no sense.

00:47:16.740 So.

00:47:18.420 Hey, Constantine, do you love trigonometry?

00:47:21.420 Of course.

00:47:22.260 Incredible interviews, hilarious live streams, hard hitting satire, plus my handsome jawline.

00:47:28.520 Whatever takes away from your hairline.

00:47:30.660 But if you do love trigonometry and you want to support us, there's only one place to do that, and that's on Locals.

00:47:37.540 Yes, Locals is a brilliant platform that has been incredibly supportive to our show and other problematic creators.

00:47:44.980 The great thing about Locals is that it's a community for people who love trigonometry.

00:47:49.800 That's right.

00:47:50.280 It's a place for you to hang out with like-minded people, share thoughts, memes, and discuss the show.

00:47:54.780 You can enjoy it for free, but it also gives you the option of supporting us for as little as $7 a month.

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00:48:12.080 Get in.

00:48:12.940 Join our community by hitting the link in the description and the pinned comment below.

00:48:17.680 See you there, guys.

00:48:18.660 Carl, I'm talking about Twitter.

00:48:22.600 And not just about Twitter, but big tech.

00:48:25.260 Yeah.

00:48:25.580 Because to me, you are the one who started on YouTube right when it was in its nascent phase.

00:48:33.400 You gained this huge following.

00:48:35.520 And then you made the decision before everyone else to leave YouTube and strike out on your own.

00:48:43.440 And we talk about big tech censorship with lots of people.

00:48:47.320 We've talked about it with loads of great people, but people who haven't experienced what it's like.

00:48:53.160 Can you explain to us that journey of starting out and then leaving why you left?

00:48:58.220 Because I think this is really important.

00:49:00.380 I wouldn't say that I've left YouTube because LotusEaters.com does have a YouTube channel,

00:49:05.640 which is Podcast of the Lotus Eaters.

00:49:07.100 You can go find it.

00:49:08.420 We do have a YouTube channel, but we don't just have a YouTube channel because it used to be that YouTube was the wild west of the internet.

00:49:17.420 You could literally put anything on there and you could find anything.

00:49:21.420 And no matter how crazy or normal, it was a huge range and it was very exciting.

00:49:26.220 You know, it was a fun place to be.

00:49:27.580 They weren't heavy handed with their moderation.

00:49:29.780 And then the administrative state got involved.

00:49:33.100 And therefore YouTube were like, right, okay, we're going to have to crack down.

00:49:36.080 They now have a very, very strict set of editorial rules.

00:49:40.540 And it became apparent that if I wanted to be able to talk about certain things,

00:49:45.120 whether it's an offensive take on something or not, why risk it basically?

00:49:52.840 And so we've started a website.

00:49:54.940 We've got a big team and we produce lots of good content

00:49:57.840 because that way we can at least be sure that we have a place to be able to do these things.

00:50:03.660 And, you know, people can subscribe to our website, get access to all the premium stuff we do,

00:50:07.300 and therefore see the things that we want to talk about.

00:50:09.840 But honestly, the editorial standards of the Silicon Valley social media platforms forbid.

00:50:15.980 I mean, like one example is Twitter and talking about gender binary.

00:50:19.880 You know, if you want to question whether man and woman have any connection to male or female,

00:50:24.680 you can find yourself getting banned from Twitter.

00:50:27.340 And I think that's a conversation that's very much up in the air, needs to be debated.

00:50:32.600 And yet one of these platforms just said, nope, not at all.

00:50:36.060 Questions about COVID and vaccines on YouTube are also just verboten.

00:50:40.880 You know, we have had videos struck because we cited doctors, people like Dr. Malone,

00:50:48.920 who, of course, is not on any of these platforms now, the co-inventor of the mRNA vaccine,

00:50:53.740 because they are not in total lockstep to a particular narrative.

00:50:59.320 And that's quite scary.

00:51:01.240 And so this is why we started.

00:51:02.800 It's very scary, man.

00:51:03.880 And the thing is, like, we put a video of my Twitter thread out recently about why people are vaccinated.

00:51:09.140 It doesn't mention the vaccine at all.

00:51:10.700 It's really talking about the media context.

00:51:12.760 The psychology of it.

00:51:13.440 The psychology of why people trust the experts a lot less than they ever used to.

00:51:18.160 And that didn't get censored outright.

00:51:20.840 They just put an 18-only restriction, which dampened the growth of the video for a while.

00:51:25.640 And then they took it off.

00:51:26.480 I think Jordan Peterson or someone retweeted it.

00:51:29.040 Yeah.

00:51:29.140 So we've had our video at the beginning of the pandemic of Peter Hitchens.

00:51:34.380 It was shadow banned.

00:51:35.160 We have a video clip on our channel showing exactly how you couldn't find it on Google and you couldn't find it on YouTube.

00:51:42.200 It was shadow banned for a few days.

00:51:43.480 Then they take it off.

00:51:44.320 And there's never any explanation of why those decisions are made.

00:51:46.980 It is very worrying.

00:51:50.520 But at the same time, do you think this is less about the administrative state, but it's a product of the fact of how big these companies have become?

00:51:58.500 And it's like as we grow, people are like, well, you've got to think about this now and you have an audience, so you've got to be responsible about that.

00:52:08.100 Like those pressures are quite natural.

00:52:10.480 I'm always very wary when any – and I know you're not like this anyway.

00:52:14.660 You're not conspiratorial in this way.

00:52:16.500 But I'm wary of people like they go, there's a small – there's like a thing that explains everything and it's a cabal of small people, small cabal of people somewhere that are pulling all the strings.

00:52:26.360 Do you know what I mean?

00:52:26.800 Yeah, it's not about conspiracies.

00:52:29.620 That's the problem.

00:52:30.680 If it was a conspiracy, then it would be a lot easier to expose it.

00:52:34.780 And people would go, oh, well, good.

00:52:36.280 We'll stop doing that then because the conspirators have been caught and, you know, and it's not to say there aren't conspiracies.

00:52:41.840 There are, but this isn't one of them, unfortunately.

00:52:44.700 This is to do with the paradigm that we're in, as in the governing principles of public life, they put you on a set of rails.

00:52:52.280 And the question is just how far down these rails are going to go.

00:52:54.920 And so if you adopt the principle, oh, well, vaccine misinformation is wrong, well, then now we're in control of YouTube.

00:53:02.960 Well, we've got to do something about vaccine misinformation.

00:53:05.780 And so they can't help themselves.

00:53:07.960 And this is how, I think it was Nadine Doris or one of the Conservative cabinet members in Parliament, I think it was today or yesterday.

00:53:16.560 It is Nadine Doris.

00:53:17.540 It is, yeah.

00:53:18.020 Yeah, who was saying that they have a special squad that monitor the internet for vaccine misinformation and remove it because the Labour Party were concerned that they didn't.

00:53:28.140 Well, our disinformation and misinformation unit is working and we've done everything possible.

00:53:34.680 I mean, I know that there have been accusations is a strong word, but concerns possibly for the opposition front bench that the disinformation and misinformation unit was no longer in existence.

00:53:45.140 That's not the case. It's not true. It is there. It is working.

00:53:49.140 We did have a pilot which ran for six months, which stopped.

00:53:52.580 But the work from that pilot now continues with the misinformation and disinformation unit.

00:53:56.980 And daily, that work takes place daily and daily we work to remove that content online, which is both harmful and particularly when it comes to COVID-19 and vaccinations, which is harmful and provides misinformation and disinformation.

00:54:12.500 It's like, sorry, you've got this, you've got this, what, like private, opaque group in the government that censors things from the internet?

00:54:21.780 Like, what are you talking about?

00:54:23.420 Okay, so that being the case, and look, I am broadly on your side when it comes to this.

00:54:29.100 And the Jews.

00:54:29.900 Yeah, exactly, get rid of them.

00:54:33.280 You know, they've done enough now, right?

00:54:38.120 We're just messing with you, Carl.

00:54:39.580 But the problem comes with, what do you do with quite blatant medical misinformation?

00:54:45.880 5G causes COVID, et cetera, et cetera.

00:54:49.740 What do you do with that?

00:54:51.300 Does that come within the Overton window?

00:54:53.700 Do you remove that?

00:54:55.840 What do you do?

00:54:57.540 I think that one of the reasons that people have less faith in experts now is because the experts have essentially been ignoring the conspiracy theories and just censoring them.

00:55:10.500 And when you do that, that makes people think, right, you don't have an answer to this, but you are a tyrant and you are lying to me.

00:55:18.160 And so essentially, Chris Whitty is going to have to come out and explain why 5G isn't whatever the conspiracy is about 5G.

00:55:26.800 And they're going to have to explain it.

00:55:28.580 And they might think, well, this is beneath my dignity or something.

00:55:32.300 Sure, but you're dealing with people who don't know anything about these things and won't believe you unless you actually engage properly with what they're saying.

00:55:40.560 And the thing is, there are some kernels of truth in some of these conspiracy theories that when you censor them, what you're saying is, well, that's not a kernel of truth.

00:55:50.620 The thing is, people have recognized this with their own eyes.

00:55:52.600 They can see that whatever the kernel of truth, the insanity has been built around, they can see that that is true.

00:55:57.640 And so if you deny that, well, you're denying all of it, which means it must all be true, you know.

00:56:02.260 And so it's unfortunately requires more interface from these public experts, but they hold themselves very aloof.

00:56:10.600 I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.

00:56:12.460 That's misinformation gone.

00:56:14.500 And it's like, sorry, that's not how you build trust.

00:56:16.780 That's how you build distrust.

00:56:18.480 It's a great point.

00:56:19.580 I remember I watched this documentary on flat earthers and, you know, it was quite a joke and they were taking the piss out.

00:56:25.320 Are you saying the earth are not flat?

00:56:26.120 And they interviewed this NASA scientist and she made such a great point.

00:56:36.740 She was like, no, the reason they believe this is our fault.

00:56:41.580 It's a scientist's fault because we are not explaining it in ways that they can understand.

00:56:46.800 And by mocking them and by censoring, all you're doing them is pushing them into the fringes and the margins of society.

00:56:53.900 Instead of welcoming them in and going, so these are your beliefs.

00:56:58.640 Let me explain to you in very clear, easy, simple to understand ways why what you believe is scientifically incorrect.

00:57:07.420 See, that requires a sort of level of kindness, doesn't it?

00:57:10.600 You know, a level of consideration.

00:57:12.440 It's not there's a lunatic who I consider a threat.

00:57:15.640 It's, oh, there's someone who I can help, you know.

00:57:17.820 And look, look, let me show you, because I mean, like the, I always had this video that I saw that was of a balloon that goes up into the atmosphere and you can literally see the earth become round, right?

00:57:28.260 And so I would send that to flat earthers when I was on Twitter and whatnot, because it was just like, well, look, and then all the videos, okay, now everything's fake, you know.

00:57:35.040 But, you know, like, but that's exactly the point.

00:57:37.300 Then instead of treating them like a hostile enemy, treat them like people that you're responsible for, because you're the elite, you're the experts, you're the people they're looking up to, and you're the people who are losing the confidence of those people below you.

00:57:48.660 So you have to do something in the way of outreach if you've got this position of social responsibility.

00:57:53.860 Well, that's one of the problems, isn't it?

00:57:56.100 Because all they're doing by censoring stuff and not engaging with it, and I've made this, you know, we had a controversial scientist on the show very early in the pandemic, who I think said some things that probably were completely wrong, in my opinion.

00:58:07.640 Now, when I look back at it, but when we went on Rebel Wisdom, David challenged us on it, and I made this very point.

00:58:14.560 What the government should be doing is going, here's a video of trigonometry interviewing Dr. Suchari Bhakti, and here's what he says, and here are the facts, and answer people's questions.

00:58:26.600 I mean, look at this current vaccine discussion that we're having.

00:58:30.900 You know, there are people who are concerned about myocarditis, for example, right?

00:58:35.880 I think if you address that issue, you would either explain to people what's going on or assuage their fears, and there's probably a way to do that.

00:58:42.900 For example, yes, people are getting myocarditis from taking the vaccine, but it seems that it doesn't last very long.

00:58:48.780 It's not lethal to the overwhelming majority of people.

00:58:51.760 Let's have that discussion instead of just keeping it under wraps, where people are going, well, they're not talking about myocarditis.

00:58:58.100 That means that probably everyone fucking has it.

00:59:00.220 Well, they probably don't, but you need to have the sensible conversation.

00:59:03.940 And the problem is we've got this situation now where the big tech companies are employing a 20-year-old in California or a 20-year-old in India to decide what the conversation that we're allowed to have is, what the truth is.

00:59:16.820 Look at the lab leak thing, right?

00:59:18.280 A year ago, wouldn't be allowed to be discussed.

00:59:20.460 Now probably is what happened.

00:59:22.200 You know what I mean?

00:59:23.360 Notice, though, that the – I think one of the reasons they don't do this is because they've got this desire for certainty and correctness under all circumstances.

00:59:31.940 Like, because it may be that there is a problem with myocarditis.

00:59:36.080 I'm not a doctor.

00:59:36.720 I don't know.

00:59:37.600 But if this is something that's coming up, then they may have to give a bit on the vaccine narrative, which is the vaccine is perfect and it's flawless and will save us all and will do no wrong in any circumstances.

00:59:46.800 It's like, well, nothing's like that.

00:59:48.520 You know, that's an unreasonable standard that you're setting for yourselves.

00:59:51.580 And then you're censoring things that might actually force you to come a bit closer to the center and say, well, look, okay, there are some problems.

00:59:59.380 But overall, it's a general good, which I'm sure it is, you know.

01:00:02.740 But by demanding a standard of perfection for yourself, you are setting yourself up to be an untrustworthy narrator on your narrative.

01:00:11.440 And that gives credence to, you know, people who I guess rightly we would call Froot Loops, you know, crackpots, you know.

01:00:18.740 And you make them right by being wrong, by claiming perfection when you don't have it.

01:00:23.740 And it's also the way that, you know, the people in the public eye shaming and use it in the language that they use.

01:00:32.160 I take Tony Blair, for example, saying, you know, saying that people who I see, even I use the language anti-vaxxers.

01:00:39.680 They're not.

01:00:40.280 People who haven't taken the vaccine are stupid and selfish.

01:00:43.560 And you think, well, how is that going to help anyone?

01:00:45.480 You're not going to persuade anyone.

01:00:47.180 You're just going to drive someone even further into not taking the vaccine.

01:00:51.600 Well, that's because the reason he's doing it is not to persuade anyone.

01:00:54.400 He wants to signal to his own side that he's got the right opinions and that he's virtuous and he's trying to look good in public, which, as I said.

01:01:02.540 A bit late for that, mate.

01:01:03.260 As I said before, you would not expect from Tony Blair.

01:01:06.620 But I tell you what, if I was someone who'd like, you know, I'd been, got my vaccine, got my booster, and then Tony Blair's like, yeah, those anti-vaxxers are idiots.

01:01:13.020 I'm like, oh, God, maybe they've got a point, you know, Tony Blair saying it.

01:01:17.160 Take this out.

01:01:17.940 But anyway, Carl, it's been great having you back.

01:01:22.380 It's always great to have the conversation.

01:01:24.300 We've got a couple of questions for our locals-only supporters.

01:01:27.280 But before we go, as you know, I haven't been on the show many times now, our last question is always the same.

01:01:32.340 What's the one thing we're still not talking about as a society that we really shouldn't be?

01:01:38.180 One thing.

01:01:39.060 I actually don't think I can boil it down to just one thing.

01:01:45.280 But I think the general theme of what we're talking about, the abolition of the administrative state is, I think, the main issue to get out of this problem.

01:01:55.940 You know, we have to get out of the mindset that the government, as you were saying earlier, is the source of all solutions.

01:02:02.460 Or should be.

01:02:03.520 You know, that to me seems like the key issue of the time.

01:02:06.860 You know, one thing that just occurred to me as you said that, that actually, I'm trying to think it through.

01:02:14.760 But it seems to me that a form of soft authoritarianism, best case scenario, is the inevitable consequence of that thinking.

01:02:24.080 Because if you think the government is supposed to do everything, then the government will do everything.

01:02:29.660 And that means that it will control increasingly large swathes of your personal life and your conduct and your interactions with other people.

01:02:36.640 So, like, not doing that is the only way to preserve freedom, essentially.

01:02:42.100 Yes, absolutely.

01:02:42.980 I mean, we're already in this position.

01:02:44.700 You know, we've already been through the lockdowns.

01:02:46.320 We're already getting to, in Scotland and Wales, with vaccine passports and the insane contradictory tyrannies that they're going through.

01:02:53.220 So, not to say what's going on on the continent or in Australia or in various other places.

01:02:57.200 We're already at that point.

01:02:58.880 And it's going to be very difficult for the people who have enforced those kind of regimes to admit that we made a mistake.

01:03:06.280 Because then they have to essentially admit that they're not the heroes, they're the villains.

01:03:11.580 And the problem is, though, Carl, is that a lot of people quite like this.

01:03:16.840 There are some.

01:03:17.960 No, I wouldn't say some.

01:03:19.960 I would say there is a majority.

01:03:23.100 It's a small majority.

01:03:24.520 But I think there is a majority of people.

01:03:26.340 How can it be a small majority?

01:03:27.780 Because 52% is 51%.

01:03:29.460 He is, like, 52%, not 18%.

01:03:31.480 Yeah.

01:03:31.820 But, you know, when – I don't know if you saw our interview with Stephen Hicks about the Nazis.

01:03:36.080 Yes, I did, yeah, yeah.

01:03:36.560 This is one of the points he made right at the end, which is a lot of people, particularly people who feel that they're not necessarily well prepared for life.

01:03:45.080 They're not necessarily able to live their life if they are the sole person responsible for their life.

01:03:51.880 A collectivist mindset, a mindset of, well, big daddy government is going to sort it out and tell people what to do, is appealing.

01:03:59.160 It is a very good criticism of liberalism to say that fundamentally you are on your own, that you are an individual, you have your life, and you are a free agent.

01:04:10.600 You have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

01:04:13.740 Now, what's distinctive about liberalism, though, is to say that making your life is a do-it-yourself project.

01:04:22.220 It's not to say that you won't be very social and other people won't help you and you'll have wonderful support networks, right, and so forth.

01:04:28.240 But there is a bottom-line responsibility that liberalism puts on each individual.

01:04:34.520 And then we do find a big divide among individuals in a liberal society, those who are grateful, who are energized, who are delighted by the fact that I am a free agent and I can do whatever I want with my life,

01:04:51.240 and I'm going to go out and do something pretty special with it, versus those who feel that as a burden, as a weight, as I'm not sure that I'm up to the task, and that sounds a little bit scary.

01:05:04.920 And for that psychological type, I'm just going to call it a psychological type right now, I do think the collectivisms are going to be more psychologically attractive.

01:05:14.140 And it's not just that it's appealing as well, it's, I think there are people, you know, of around 20 years old now, who have known nothing else.

01:05:22.100 You know, I can remember a time, I was an adult before all of the, before Tony Blair, well, about when Tony Blair came into power.

01:05:29.060 And so I remember what it was like before, you know, whereas like Callum, one of the hosts of the podcast, he's 25, he just doesn't remember a before time.

01:05:38.200 That's reassuring to me, because kids always rebel against what they see.

01:05:41.600 Well...

01:05:42.080 So we may get an ultra-freedom-loving generation coming next.

01:05:46.120 I don't know, actually. I'm not sure.

01:05:48.860 Francis is shaking his head.

01:05:50.040 The statistics on Generation Z are actually in, and it's worse than the millennials.

01:05:54.880 Good.

01:05:55.500 Look, kill them all.

01:05:57.540 We'll end on that.

01:05:58.880 That's a joke, YouTube. It's just a joke. I'm not actually suggesting violence against anyone, except millennials.

01:06:04.120 Now, Carl, thanks for coming back on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure.

01:06:08.480 Thank you all for watching and listening at home. We'll see you very soon with another brilliant episode like this one, or Raw Show.

01:06:14.720 All of them go out at 7pm UK time.

01:06:16.680 And for those of you who like your trigonometry on the go, it's also available as a podcast.

01:06:21.300 And before you go, I should say, Carl, obviously, lotoseaters.com. People should check out your work there.

01:06:25.540 Yeah, yeah, and they can go to podcasts on Lotus Eaters on YouTube if they want to watch our daily podcast.

01:06:30.080 Fantastic. Thanks very much. We'll see you soon.

01:06:32.080 Take care and see you soon, guys.

01:06:34.740 We hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview.

01:06:37.660 Remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so that you never miss another fantastic episode.

01:06:44.020 And if you believe that the work we do here at Trigonometry is important, support us by joining our locals community using the link below.

01:07:07.660 Thank you.

01:07:10.380 Thank you.

01:07:14.020 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - January 20, 2022

Sargon of Akkad on Big Government, Immigration and Censorship

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