TRIGGERnometry - Sargon of Akkad on Liberalism, Intersectionality & Immigration

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:00:15.840 for you if you're bored of watching people argue on the internet about subjects they know nothing

00:00:20.460 about at trigonometry we don't pretend to be the experts we ask the experts our amazing guest this

00:00:26.860 week is a controversial YouTube star with nearly a million subscribers.

00:00:31.420 Sargon of Akkad, Carl Benjamin, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:34.440 Thanks for having me.

00:00:35.040 I really appreciate it.

00:00:35.800 We really appreciate you coming on the show.

00:00:37.740 Thank you so much.

00:00:38.820 Before we get started, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, which is not many people

00:00:41.800 these days, you've been all over the shop in the media and elsewhere, who are you, what

00:00:46.020 do you do, and how did you come to the place that you are at now?

00:00:48.080 Well, I'm certainly not an expert.

00:00:50.760 I hate to break that to you.

00:00:52.320 All right, that's the interview over.

00:00:53.140 yeah um basically uh i i kept seeing i i wasn't really politically engaged in my 20s and i you

00:01:01.480 know i was just coasting through my life just working in regular jobs just as tech admins and

00:01:05.920 things like this i would continually listen to audiobooks in my in my ear while i was doing and

00:01:10.680 by the time i came to my early 30s i realized that the world was not being run as i approved

00:01:15.840 of it was becoming remarkably illiberal in many different ways and i just found it it was getting

00:01:21.880 the point where i was like why is no one pointing this out you know what surely everyone can see

00:01:27.000 that we shouldn't be making uh like racial distinctions on hiring for the bbc or things

00:01:32.600 like this which is something they actually do and so i just started making videos about things that

00:01:37.640 were concerning me and i was an absolute fool because i never really thought it was going to

00:01:41.560 go anywhere i just i just had to get it off my chest and so i had a youtube account that was just

00:01:46.760 registered under my gamer tag which is so i'm going to you know when i was playing video games

00:01:51.320 And now I'm stuck with the name.

00:01:53.920 I wish I'd used my own name.

00:01:55.600 I didn't even think about it.

00:01:57.180 And so, yeah, and basically I just got to work

00:01:59.840 just researching what the hell's going on.

00:02:03.180 Five years later, I'm like, wow, we've got real problems.

00:02:05.780 And they start at the sort of most fundamental philosophical level.

00:02:08.940 And we need to have a conversation about just the principles

00:02:12.300 that we base our decisions on.

00:02:14.180 Because if you think about what's happening,

00:02:15.720 I mean, look at the Cary Gracie decision at the moment with the BBC.

00:02:19.760 I don't know whether you guys have been following it.

00:02:20.940 But she's recently managed to get £280,000 out of the BBC licence payer because she didn't get paid the same as a man who worked twice as many hours as her in a more stressful job.

00:02:30.640 And so she's there saying, well, it's about the principle of equality.

00:02:33.360 It's like, OK, well, that's not a principle I agree to.

00:02:35.640 I agree to the principle of you get what you earn.

00:02:37.780 And if you work four hours a day on a relatively easy job in China, reading the news for four hours a day and you're on air for like two hours or something a week,

00:02:45.960 then a guy who's on air twice as much as you and works in a high stress job like in washington dc

00:02:50.920 he deserves more money than you there's just no getting around it the jobs aren't the same

00:02:54.920 it's not comparable and so like we need to get down to these sort of basic axioms of how we even

00:03:00.740 form our political beliefs because when we get there you realize that liberal philosophy has

00:03:05.260 essentially been subverted by continental collectivism and this is a problem especially

00:03:10.760 if you're an English liberal like myself you're an individualist you you believe in the the agency

00:03:16.140 of the individual you come to see I mean like we've got a women and equalities branch of the

00:03:23.060 government at this point I mean that sounds like something that I would expect to see in the Soviet

00:03:26.200 Union you know I that's it's not the government's job to make us equal it's the government's job to

00:03:31.340 protect our rights and that's it and so that's what I'm more interested in returning to sort

00:03:36.620 more traditional english british liberal sort of like governmental structure i know it's a massive

00:03:42.980 undertaking that i'm proposing but i'm i mean it's it's really got to the point where there there's

00:03:47.540 just such a chasm between these two styles of belief that we we have to address it i was gonna

00:03:53.100 ask why uh for the benefit of anyone doesn't know who you are why you're controversial but i think

00:03:57.100 we've addressed that already honestly right the controversy isn't from any of my beliefs i i mean

00:04:02.880 i i know i'm you know i'm anti-racist i'm anti-fascist i'm anti-communist and i think

00:04:08.320 the problem is that after after world war ii right-wing socialism fascism nazism was absolutely

00:04:15.040 discredited there was there was no no future for it at all they got completely wiped from the map

00:04:19.300 but that didn't happen with left-wing left-wing socialism the soviet union it took a long time

00:04:24.120 for the soviet union to collapse and so many actors is incredibly intellectual people on the

00:04:29.160 left were basically using this uh to fuel their desire to implement socialism and obviously that's

00:04:35.440 failed everywhere it's been tried and so now liberalism is the only ideology left standing

00:04:39.860 and so when i'm saying that i'm for what classical british liberalism and they're saying well you're

00:04:44.760 a fascist i'm just like you don't know what liberalism or fascism is then you know you don't

00:04:48.980 know about the the terms i'm talking about and i'm i'm part of the intellectual tradition that

00:04:54.100 was first into the field against fascism and the fascists if you read like Mussolini's doctrine of

00:04:59.420 fascism he rails against liberalism all day in the same way that Hitler did in Mein Kampf they

00:05:03.620 can't stand it I mean they think it's a Jewish invention and things like this and it's it's just

00:05:07.900 like it's like well we can't have a conversation then can we you know if you're going to call me

00:05:12.680 a Nazi and I'm going to call you a commie then I guess we have to go to war and nobody is

00:05:16.500 representing each other's beliefs accurately. So you were talking as well about diversity and

00:05:21.700 Do you not think that actually, in terms of the BBC,

00:05:24.920 we need diversity quotas to reflect the fact

00:05:27.140 that our society more and more is becoming more multicultural?

00:05:30.460 It shouldn't just be, for instance, white males,

00:05:32.880 particularly white males from Oxford.

00:05:34.400 See, isn't that a white supremacist opinion?

00:05:37.940 I'm not joking.

00:05:39.420 Why, in a meritocratic system,

00:05:41.760 couldn't a non-white person apply for a job,

00:05:44.460 be the best for the job, and get the job?

00:05:47.260 Why could they not do this?

00:05:49.300 I mean, do we think that the BBC is run by racists?

00:05:52.520 I think the counter-argument to that is,

00:05:55.500 ultimately, we surround ourselves with people

00:05:58.680 who we inadvertently, who we know,

00:06:01.640 who we're most comfortable with.

00:06:03.140 And if you are, like, a white bloke

00:06:05.440 who grew up in a part of South London, like me,

00:06:08.320 you end up socialising with white people,

00:06:12.840 mainly from South London,

00:06:14.020 or you feel more comfortable dealing with people

00:06:16.560 from your part of the world, essentially.

00:06:19.080 I think people are more comfortable dealing with people

00:06:20.880 who think like them and so i don't think that your race is very important when that conversation

00:06:25.720 comes around i mean you you get a lot of people who are young um the the children of migrants who

00:06:31.460 came in the 60s and 70s and who are very left-wing very progressive i don't think that they're being

00:06:35.840 held back because of their race or anything like that i think that they're i think that the fact

00:06:39.740 that they believe the same sort of things as what the people at the bbc and running the bbc believe

00:06:44.760 is a natural advantage to them i mean i don't think the bbc would ever hire me not because i'm

00:06:49.700 white well maybe because i'm white actually i actually do have quotas against white people

00:06:53.140 at bbc but primarily because i do not subscribe to socialism and my entire worldview is informed

00:06:59.960 by that and their entire worldview is informed by their socialism and they they would just find

00:07:03.580 themselves on a fundamental disagreement with me so if we were to sit in an interview they would

00:07:07.500 they would probably not necessarily know why they disagreed but they're probably like no he's he

00:07:12.500 doesn't give me the right feeling because i'm not confirming what they want to hear whereas someone

00:07:16.500 you know a south asian person who came in and said yo i think progressivism is great

00:07:20.260 they they would be absolutely oh that was that was a great person i don't think this country

00:07:24.480 is run by white supremacists and racists i think this country is in fact pathologically anti-racist

00:07:29.560 to the point where we've we've got to the point where just the allegation is enough to ruin

00:07:33.840 someone's career and it's like but you you can't really prove unless they're demonstrably doing

00:07:39.020 something you know unless they're openly wandering around zig heiling it's really difficult to prove

00:07:44.320 someone's a racist you know and this is this is the problem the allegation itself it only has

00:07:49.140 weight because you care whether you're a racist or not if you were a racist you wouldn't give a

00:07:53.660 damn if someone calls you a racist you'd be like and you know you wouldn't take action but suddenly

00:08:00.540 we're like oh god we need diversity we better do everything we can to make sure we're not racist

00:08:03.820 like if you're doing that you're probably not a racist a racist wouldn't give a damn they'd

00:08:08.300 probably be proud of it if any of the viewers are wondering why i've been smiling through

00:08:11.900 with this whole exchange is I'm just waiting for you

00:08:14.460 to show up on Sargon Destroys snowflake.

00:08:19.340 Liberal snowflake get smashed.

00:08:23.020 I'm really looking forward to that.

00:08:24.520 Yeah, I'll be able to have my face

00:08:26.120 plastered all over the internet.

00:08:27.820 But this is the thing though, right?

00:08:29.100 I mean, that question comes from a completely different set

00:08:32.180 of presuppositions than my answer.

00:08:34.040 And I mean, what's your answer?

00:08:36.020 You said, well, that's true.

00:08:38.520 We're not racists, you know?

00:08:39.680 We don't need to, I mean, I find it, I find there's something deeply concerning about the focus on race.

00:08:45.300 I mean, there are so many other more salient characteristics when talking about a person.

00:08:49.400 And these are, you know, these are usually within the agency of the person.

00:08:52.640 The person's choosing their own beliefs, and that's another question whether you actually choose your beliefs or not.

00:08:56.800 But the roots of your beliefs and, like, the way you form your worldview and the way you interact with other people,

00:09:02.580 I really think that race plays a much smaller role, at least in this country, than it does in other countries.

00:09:07.660 I mean, in America, it's a much more, like, prescient and to the fore issue,

00:09:12.600 which it's very annoying talking to Americans about, like, class.

00:09:16.340 They can't differentiate class from race.

00:09:18.360 But in this country, I think class is a much bigger barrier to success.

00:09:21.980 I mean, if I came in here with a very low-class accent...

00:09:25.420 All right, mate, chill out, fucking hell.

00:09:27.620 I'm teasing, I'm teasing, I'm teasing, yeah.

00:09:29.780 Francis agrees with you on this issue.

00:09:31.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do, 100%.

00:09:32.600 It absolutely is.

00:09:33.180 There's a huge amount of middle-class condescension to the working classes,

00:09:35.980 And we see this in the term gammon.

00:09:38.380 I mean, it feels like a racist term, doesn't it?

00:09:41.120 Well, it is a racist term.

00:09:42.920 Well, you're talking about a group of people based on their skin colour

00:09:45.680 and you're making assertions about...

00:09:48.020 Derogatory. Yeah, exactly.

00:09:49.660 It's used as a pejorative.

00:09:50.580 It's unquestionably racist.

00:09:51.640 I mean, they would sit there and do some mental gymnastics

00:09:54.840 to tell you that it's not racist,

00:09:56.220 but at the very least they can concede that it feels like a racist term.

00:09:59.680 I mean, if you'd made up like a coffee bean or something for a brown person,

00:10:03.980 they would say, oh, that's racist.

00:10:05.420 but they'd be playing special

00:10:07.940 I'm an immigrant so I'm allowed to call

00:10:10.000 things like that racist because I get special privilege

00:10:12.040 yes you do

00:10:12.700 this is the fascinating thing

00:10:15.260 I can tell you're not from this country mate

00:10:17.560 because you're wearing a jacket in this way

00:10:18.780 yeah it's crazy

00:10:19.540 it's just style mate you wouldn't know about it

00:10:22.980 well I'm with you there mate

00:10:25.440 well I didn't mean to insult you

00:10:28.280 I was just trying to insult Francis

00:10:29.660 I would be insulted if you said I had style

00:10:31.960 see it's a funny thing we don't have banter in Russia

00:10:33.900 so I never quite understand where the line is

00:10:36.500 between being actually rude

00:10:38.800 and just playfully insulting someone.

00:10:40.940 I know, because in Russia,

00:10:41.980 once you go over a certain line,

00:10:43.240 you get killed, don't you?

00:10:43.900 Yeah, you just have to shoot them.

00:10:45.640 Or make them tea like that.

00:10:47.080 Yeah, oh God, what have you done to me?

00:10:48.160 That is a horrible colour of tea.

00:10:50.600 It is, actually, I've got to say.

00:10:52.040 Yeah, is it nice or not?

00:10:53.440 You can be honest.

00:10:54.320 I'll be polite.

00:10:55.300 You'll be polite, bro.

00:10:56.680 You're not the first guest who's complained.

00:10:58.500 We had Liam Halligan on,

00:10:59.400 who's a pro-Brexit economist and commentator,

00:11:01.800 and he spent about three minutes ripping into me

00:11:04.120 about the quality of the tea on the show.

00:11:06.120 Well, I mean, he's not wrong, that's all I'm saying.

00:11:08.180 All right, well, there we go.

00:11:09.560 This is how British people,

00:11:11.020 and it's particularly English people from the South,

00:11:13.620 say that that tea is shit.

00:11:14.980 Yeah.

00:11:15.220 I'm going to be polite.

00:11:15.900 All right, we'll make you a proper cup of tea afterwards.

00:11:18.060 Well, Francis will, anyway.

00:11:19.440 Yeah, I'll make a proper cup of tea.

00:11:20.800 A Venezuelan cup of tea.

00:11:21.960 Yeah, a Venezuelan cup of tea, yeah.

00:11:23.820 All right, well...

00:11:24.640 With no milk, no water, and no teabag.

00:11:26.800 Anyway, um...

00:11:27.940 Well, what I was going to ask you is,

00:11:29.140 you've been very successful with your YouTube channel.

00:11:32.020 Like I said, you're approaching rapidly a million subscribers,

00:11:34.780 and I think that tells you quite a lot about what's happening in society.

00:11:37.480 I agree.

00:11:38.120 And one of the things I find very interesting about your videos is

00:11:41.100 you started out, you didn't even show your face.

00:11:43.020 It was just text, and you would comment on things.

00:11:45.800 And so you've essentially, in this world now that's obsessed with how things look,

00:11:50.360 you've actually gone for the content.

00:11:52.380 Yes.

00:11:52.740 And that content has attracted people who are like-minded,

00:11:56.060 who are interested in what you're talking about.

00:11:57.740 What do you think that tells you?

00:11:59.140 What do you think your success tells us about the society today and the problems that we face?

00:12:03.500 I think that political correctness is a kind of weapon that's used to silence and marginalize people who are voting citizens,

00:12:17.000 who have a legitimate cause to, a legitimate right to participate in democracy as the same as anyone else.

00:12:22.560 But because it falls outside of the acceptable range of discussion, then these opinions are silenced.

00:12:30.560 But that doesn't mean they go away, that just means they fester in the darkest corners of the internet.

00:12:34.880 And so when I start talking about things that need to be spoken about, but aren't politically incorrect,

00:12:40.740 then I'm considered some sort of renegade or rebel, even though I actually am pretty damn mainstream in my opinions, really.

00:12:48.360 I'm just prepared to deal with the tough issues that nobody else really wants to talk about because they're afraid of being called names.

00:12:54.680 So what are the tough issues that you tackle for anyone who doesn't watch your channel?

00:12:57.940 Yeah, I mean, I think feminism is a major one, but that's just an outgrowth of, I guess, what you would call intersectionality.

00:13:06.560 It's a kind of postmodern philosophy that's essentially become hegemonic over the left.

00:13:15.280 You'll notice that liberals now are just considered to be right wing.

00:13:17.620 I mean, I always consider myself centre-left, remember I did a political compass test, I'm

00:13:21.120 always on the centre-left libertarian spectrum, and I get told relentlessly that I'm right-wing.

00:13:26.200 And so essentially, I mean, intersectionality is essentially the combination of all the

00:13:33.140 philosophies that play on identity politics, which is essentially the politics of victimhood.

00:13:38.840 And so you've got socialism, you've got sort of Black Lives Matter style racial politics,

00:13:43.440 you've got feminism, all of these suddenly, because they operate along the same lines,

00:13:46.880 they can all be bundled into the same package which is intersectionality and this is why they

00:13:51.740 now have a racial and gendered hierarchy of oppression called the progressive stack i mean

00:13:56.320 i'm sat there thinking that's the most horrific thing i've ever seen to categorize people's

00:13:59.900 privilege based on their race and gender i mean it's it's so unbelievable and dehumanizing in my

00:14:07.160 opinion and you'll notice in the way they use the term like female bodies black bodies white

00:14:13.060 bodies. They'll use these terms. And I'm like, that's how I would describe corpses. You know,

00:14:17.760 I would never describe a living human being as just a body. That's the most dehumanizing thing

00:14:22.440 I've ever heard. And yet this is standard academic language. It's disgraceful, in my opinion.

00:14:28.120 And so this has made me a complete renegade. And no one wanted to talk about it in this way,

00:14:31.760 because I guess the liberals have just lost their spine. They've lost all their moral courage.

00:14:36.180 And I don't know why, because liberalism is the only ideology with any repute left,

00:14:40.840 which is why the left still hides behind the term liberal but as soon as you start saying well i'm

00:14:44.840 in favor of capitalism which is a core liberal principle all of a sudden it's like well you're

00:14:48.740 a right winger it's like absolutely not i'm in favor of people having food on the table

00:14:52.400 i'm having money in their pocket and and a tv and you know you know spare time i'm not in favor of

00:14:57.480 them going hungry you know and so it's it's basically i think it was just because i was

00:15:02.400 addressing things that the mainstream would not touch or didn't know how to touch i think there's

00:15:06.280 a kind of group thing that traps them all and there's there's definitely kind of cult-like

00:15:09.920 behavior of demonizing the outsider and denouncing people who would be dissidents it's typical cult

00:15:18.960 behaviors and i think people fall into these patterns of behavior without realizing it and i

00:15:22.760 think it's really unhealthy do you not think though that with something like feminism it at its core

00:15:29.100 it's it's still needed especially when you look at what's happening in the world where in a lot of

00:15:34.340 countries women simply aren't equal women don't have the right to vote issues like fgm are still

00:15:39.600 happening they still happen in this city in london i mean when i was a teacher i used to see you know

00:15:44.960 girls you know literally disappear for months on end and then come back no questions asked the black

00:15:50.580 lives matter movement i mean you would say it's incredibly relevant especially in america well

00:15:55.060 unfortunately in america in america again it's a class problem in england uh in britain it's it's

00:16:00.700 actually it's actually the opposite happens in this country if you look at like um black and

00:16:05.420 minority ethnic deaths in police custody, they're actually underrepresented in this country. It's

00:16:11.260 13% of the population is non-white, and only 10% of the deaths in police custody are non-white.

00:16:17.140 And so, if anything, by that logic, you would need a White Lives Matter movement in Britain,

00:16:21.720 because it's disproportionately the white working class that are dying in police custody in this

00:16:25.840 country. And so you can't just import an American idea over to here, because the context is different.

00:16:30.980 And with regards to feminism, the problem that you have is what kind of feminism?

00:16:36.880 The intersectional feminists have, and it's only been in the last three or four years, I've watched this happen.

00:16:42.900 I mean, when I first started, people like Germaine Greer were credible feminists.

00:16:46.540 Germaine Greer now is being deplatformed by feminists because intersectionality has steamrolled the feminist movement.

00:16:52.260 And what it's done, it's been very clever. It's all about language games, about labeling.

00:16:56.280 And so if you're not an intersectional feminist, then you are a white feminist.

00:16:59.920 and if you are a race activist, being white is a negative thing

00:17:03.800 because you're perceived as the oppressor.

00:17:05.040 I mean, the question you have to ask yourself in regards to that is,

00:17:07.960 are you oppressing women because you're a man?

00:17:11.140 Me? No, I'm very much second in the relationship.

00:17:13.660 My girlfriend is a professor of psychology.

00:17:16.720 Then you're not a feminist.

00:17:18.060 So she's the one in charge.

00:17:19.980 It's all predicated on the idea that men are oppressing women.

00:17:22.980 And if you don't think men are oppressing women in Britain,

00:17:25.180 then you can't really be a feminist, or at least an intersectional feminist.

00:17:27.900 You can call yourself a liberal feminist.

00:17:29.160 And I mean, if there was a strong liberal feminist movement, I would call myself a liberal feminist because I'm totally in favor of women having the exact same rights as men.

00:17:38.180 You know, I can't see any justification for women not having the same rights.

00:17:41.940 I mean, I would rather the laws be written without reference to man or woman and saying citizens have these rights.

00:17:47.880 You know, I mean, I might never need an abortion, but on the off chance that I do need an abortion one day, somehow I can't actually get one because abortions are only for women.

00:17:57.300 And so, I mean, what if I was a man who did need an abortion?

00:17:59.660 I couldn't get one, you know, and I don't see why the law should distinguish in that way.

00:18:02.880 But that's not what the feminist movement of today wants to do.

00:18:06.180 But I mean, I totally agree.

00:18:07.140 I mean, Saudi Arabia is the easy go-to country to say, look, then, you know, they've only just been given the permission to drive.

00:18:13.260 They still can't leave the country without a male guardian.

00:18:15.840 You know, I mean, obviously that's I mean, but again, I mean, you don't necessarily need feminism for that.

00:18:20.640 I mean, if you were to go over there with liberal principles, you would be able to make arguments from liberalism for women's rights.

00:18:25.620 I mean, there's a reason that in this country we gave women the vote in 1918.

00:18:30.040 I think it was like nine years after the men got the vote.

00:18:32.300 Whereas in France and Germany, it was in the 50s, I think.

00:18:35.320 You know, we've always been ahead of the curve when it comes to human rights.

00:18:38.540 And it's because of the sort of British liberal principles that our society has spent a thousand years building up and crafting to this point.

00:18:47.100 England, like, the English don't like to say this, but England is an unbelievably exceptional place when it comes to moral perfection.

00:18:53.720 and there are so many other places

00:18:56.020 that just, we listen to them

00:18:57.840 because we hold ourselves to account

00:18:59.780 and we don't have the sort of courage

00:19:01.900 in our own traditions anymore, it really is disappointing

00:19:04.000 and it's turning the country into something

00:19:05.920 that it shouldn't be, we had a better

00:19:07.800 country before we started adopting these things

00:19:09.960 in my opinion, and I mean a better country for people

00:19:12.060 who aren't just white males

00:19:13.780 I mean, you know, for women, for minorities

00:19:16.040 for all these people, you know, we don't

00:19:18.100 need to have the kind of authoritarian

00:19:20.500 top-down system that

00:19:22.140 they are trying to implement we can solve the problem from the bottom up that's why you think

00:19:26.700 it's creating a culture of fear where people are afraid that if they disagree with somebody's point

00:19:32.540 of view that they're going to be labeled as you know racist whatever else and essentially i mean

00:19:37.380 you see it sometimes in extreme cases where people end up losing their jobs careers getting publicly

00:19:41.720 shamed yeah you know you already know the answer you know that there's a culture of fear everyone

00:19:45.960 knows the culture of fear i mean this is what we found in the rotherham report when it came to the

00:19:49.520 grooming gangs the police the council members they were all afraid of being labeled racist

00:19:53.240 and so in the pursuit of not being labeled as racists they would ignore the 20 something

00:19:58.940 pakistani men who are doing the grooming and treat the young vulnerable white girls the 12

00:20:04.540 year old 13 year old girls as if they were prostitutes i mean if that's not a miscarriage

00:20:09.260 of justice because of political correctness i don't know what is and i i can't see how anyone

00:20:14.040 can justify that and then the mp who tried to speak out about it for rotherham she got fired

00:20:19.180 from her labour job because she spoke up

00:20:21.380 about it. And because labour have bought into

00:20:23.320 all of the social justice activism.

00:20:25.900 You know, I mean, it's

00:20:26.980 absolutely catastrophic. And I think that's

00:20:29.380 one of the reasons for my rise, you know, my success

00:20:31.420 is because I'm prepared to

00:20:33.020 in a principled way address these things, you know,

00:20:35.220 rather than, I mean

00:20:37.280 on the internet there are loads of like

00:20:39.060 neo-Nazi LARPers

00:20:40.780 and they're just... Sorry to interrupt,

00:20:43.080 I don't know, what's a LARP?

00:20:44.840 It sounds like some kind of exotic animal

00:20:47.380 you'd see in Brazil. Someone who's basically

00:20:49.100 pretending to be this to be to be edgy and counterculture but it's sort of a milo yiannopolis

00:20:54.840 almost kind of figure no well i mean yes but for neo-nazism milo's not a nazi milo milo's

00:21:01.480 a classical liberal as well but um but they they like to do it for the shock value okay but really

00:21:06.000 i don't think they hold any of these beliefs but they like to make it look like they do because

00:21:09.860 then you oh you're offended yeah you know um but it's it requires someone principled to speak out

00:21:16.860 about these things i think and i think that's one of the reasons for my success well one of the

00:21:20.340 things that you really talk about a lot is free speech right and we had brendan o'neill who you

00:21:25.100 know and you're a fan of on the show a few weeks ago and he was talking about free speech and we

00:21:30.620 were trying to get from him like examples count dankler side right uh of people who are whose

00:21:37.620 speech is being restricted in this country in britain right and he came he told us about some

00:21:42.720 woman who does holocaust denial songs and all this kind of stuff and as principled as a person

00:21:47.720 as i tried to be i kind of look at those people and i go well i'm not sure i can get behind

00:21:52.760 defending your right to to do holocaust denial songs you know what i mean and beyond that is

00:21:57.440 there really a free speech problem in britain without a doubt i mean why shouldn't she have

00:22:01.120 the right to deny the holocaust i mean that yeah that i it doesn't matter but this is where we get

00:22:09.180 And so the principle versus practicality, because practicality would say, well, she's contributing to a narrative that the Holocaust didn't happen.

00:22:17.200 And there's going to be people who then believe that.

00:22:20.180 It's demonstrable that the Holocaust did happen.

00:22:22.100 We've got an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows.

00:22:24.320 I mean, we've got the priests of the camps, the bodies.

00:22:27.360 We've got the Nazi literature that shows us why they hated the Jews and what they were going to do to them.

00:22:32.000 We can plot a direct course.

00:22:33.800 People denying the Holocaust are just denying an aspect of reality.

00:22:36.980 So let them.

00:22:37.720 I mean, it's not illegal to deny the Holocaust in this country, you know, and she should be right to say it.

00:22:42.400 I mean, you are then free to use your free speech to make her look silly.

00:22:47.080 And you should. You know, you definitely have a moral duty to make these people look ridiculous.

00:22:51.860 But I can't find any justification for the government to restrict your free speech.

00:22:55.420 I think it's terrible. And the thing is, it gets worse.

00:22:57.640 I mean, like, if you look at Article 127, we've criminalized offense.

00:23:02.220 That's unbelievable. I mean, how can they suggest that I shouldn't be free to offend someone?

00:23:06.720 that's i mean by what right are they claiming that i must be restricted in my ability to offend

00:23:12.420 people how am i free if i'm not free to offend you then how am i free you know and this is this

00:23:17.580 is causing thousands of people a year to be arrested over social media posts i'm i'm absolutely

00:23:22.520 done with it i want the absolute repeal of the article section 127 because i don't think people

00:23:27.900 should be arrested over an offensive social media post it's up to you the citizens to deal with that

00:23:32.800 person to just show them why you think they're wrong to argue with them to mock them to treat

00:23:36.560 them however you want but it's not up to the government sit there and arrest you for saying

00:23:40.200 something on twitter it's ridiculous but i mean the problem is is and the lines start to get

00:23:45.640 blurred i mean where do you so do you see it an incitement to violence is that your right of

00:23:51.000 freedom of speech i i i personally am a free speech absolutist so i think that any action you

00:23:56.720 take is on you but i'm more than willing to compromise on incitement things like incitement

00:24:01.840 libel slander i can accept those because your public character matters and you're not always

00:24:05.500 in the same position to be able to defend yourself so i can understand legal recourse being taken if

00:24:09.860 someone's calling you a pedophile on the bbc or something and you know you're obviously not then

00:24:13.980 yes you should be able to take public you know legal action against that person or if you're if

00:24:17.560 you're and i i'm speaking as a person who stood in front of a crowd of 10 000 people and spoken

00:24:22.700 i can understand how in an environment like that incitement can be a thing you know and you you do

00:24:28.340 have a measure of power over a group of people that you wouldn't normally have in everyday life

00:24:33.520 and so yes you probably do have to be more responsible in circumstances like that but

00:24:37.180 just saying something racist or saying something inflammatory offensive i i don't agree that they

00:24:42.660 should be criminalized but then so you took the example of you delivering a speech to 10 000

00:24:46.900 people but isn't it the same the fact that how many subscribers do you have to your youtube channel

00:24:51.080 815 000 so every time you put a video out you send it to 815 000 do you not therefore have a

00:24:57.920 responsibility to those 815,000 to not say something that could then be an incitement

00:25:03.960 to violence for people to... Well, I think it depends on the context. I mean, if there were

00:25:08.260 800,000 people watching my video in an auditorium or a stadium or something, then sure, because

00:25:13.820 the environment matters, you know, when you're surrounded by like-minded people. When it's people

00:25:17.240 in their bedrooms or in their office or something watching something, I don't think it's the same

00:25:20.860 because you get an atmosphere, an energy, you know, that happens. And that's how I think the

00:25:25.540 the restriction of incitement to violence is justified but um but no i mean i think people

00:25:30.400 should be free to say these things but we then have a responsibility as citizens to address these

00:25:35.460 things on a social level but that's and and this is this is a remarkably like i i guess i would call

00:25:40.720 it an english attitude the idea that it's up to us it's not up to the government to hold one another

00:25:45.860 accountable and it's got to the point though i mean and again this is i think the way that

00:25:50.700 political correctness has taken advantage of us by denying us these basic rights i mean for example

00:25:56.520 the the ability to offend is how different groups of people negotiate what is an acceptable way to

00:26:04.480 deal with one another and this is manifested most quintessentially british britishly in

00:26:10.300 banter i mean you were saying that you didn't understand british banter right because in russia

00:26:14.860 you didn't have it but in this country i don't think we could live without it especially i mean

00:26:18.640 we've had these four constituent nations that have been side by side and warring with one another for

00:26:22.900 a thousand years i mean that's got to manifest itself in a way that we can we can recognize and

00:26:28.260 normalize the differences between us without hating one another and that's i mean like i love

00:26:33.480 the fact that in scotland when it comes to the world cup they put out shirts that say anyone but

00:26:37.860 england that is so funny to me you know and and that i mean you know you could portray that as

00:26:43.320 racist it's actually more than that car because i lived in scotland for many years and it's not

00:26:47.420 anyone you know their favorite country in every world cup is argentina oh that's because they

00:26:52.060 beat us all the time not only because they beat it but because they beat you by cheating that's

00:26:56.220 why the scots love argentina but the thing is like but but when it came to the independence vote

00:27:02.540 what country votes to remain in a union you know do you think the catalonians would vote to remain

00:27:07.500 in in spain absolutely not they were denied their vote to leave spain but the scots chose to stay

00:27:12.220 and that's that tells you something about the tolerance and plurality of britain they don't

00:27:16.620 feel that they're being unjustly held in here and could have a referendum to leave actually

00:27:21.520 will stay thank you very much okay you know it can't be that bad so there have been times on

00:27:28.200 the internet where people have linked you with the alt-right in particular the guardian have

00:27:33.660 posted an article up about it there have also been other other websites what why is it that

00:27:40.480 people say that you're alt-right and what is your response to them okay i i think um i mean the most

00:27:47.380 basic level they do it because it's a strategy what they they know that when i come to talk to

00:27:52.760 them about these issues i'm going to approach them in a way they can't reasonably deal with

00:27:56.960 because i'm going to make them seem like authoritarians i'm going to make them seem

00:27:59.700 tyrannical because frankly that's my opinion i do think they are tyrannical and so what they're

00:28:04.520 trying to do is put an idea in your mind that oh this guy's a nazi because the alt-right for anyone

00:28:09.560 who doesn't know the alt-right are essentially just white nationalists they want a state with

00:28:14.140 white only people and i'm a mixed race my dad is half white half west indian you know so i you know

00:28:19.880 i grew up on the feet of my grandfather who taught me to play chess and he's a very dark-skinned man

00:28:24.080 from the west indies i don't want a white people only state so i don't want my father to be kicked

00:28:28.300 out of my country you know my father is as english as it comes he's a military man you know he's

00:28:32.260 he's very british and i think it would be i mean i think the idea of like a like racial discrimination

00:28:38.160 that would be a catastrophe and i mean britain's always had a very multi-ethnic uh i mean britain

00:28:44.880 itself is a multi-ethnic state you know the the cornish the english the scots the irish the welsh

00:28:49.840 they don't all consider themselves one race and then you've got the british empire you've got the

00:28:53.760 seks the gurkhas and the the pakistanis you know who who have relations to the identity that is

00:28:59.680 british that isn't based on races it's based on other things and so when the alt-right come along

00:29:04.880 say right we're essentially i mean i don't want to just call them nazis because that's always used

00:29:09.860 as an easy way of dismissing someone's ideas but they very much agree with adolf hitler on the idea

00:29:15.480 of a racial super state you know they think that white people should be in a unique state with

00:29:21.540 themselves and have no interaction with non-white states and i'm just like that's the furthest thing

00:29:27.120 from what i believe and i mean i being a liberal i'm an individualist i think that all individuals

00:29:31.860 should be treated equally by the state without exception they're racial collectivists and so

00:29:37.280 they are they are naturally opposed to what i believe just fundamentally they they can't agree

00:29:42.460 with anything that i say on that basis i mean you'll you'll get there's clips of richard spencer

00:29:47.320 one of the most popular people in the alt-right saying that he's just openly against free speech

00:29:51.320 i mean i'm a free speech fundamentalist i mean i was described by the mirror as a free speech

00:29:55.740 extremist and i proudly wear that label but you know i'm very much free speech it's the complete

00:30:01.400 polar opposite of what the alt-right wants but because the alt-right also operate in the kind of

00:30:06.040 dissident online space they're a much smaller presence i mean they've given a lot more weight

00:30:10.920 than they deserve but if there are 50 000 of them worldwide i'll be amazed i don't think there are

00:30:15.880 that many at all um but the the reason they say i'm alt-right linked is because i debate against

00:30:21.560 them i've i've debated against richard spencer jared taylor um millennial woes uh a bunch of a

00:30:29.000 a bunch of other like american online ones that people won't recognize you know but um but i've

00:30:33.120 debated against all the major names you know and told them look i think you're wrong i just think

00:30:37.600 you're categorically wrong in the things you're saying and i don't think that what you're saying

00:30:40.600 has philosophical consistency and i don't think there's moral consistency and so when they say

00:30:45.580 i mean russia today outright called me alt-right and i think i might have a case to sue them

00:30:49.700 because obviously a defamatory way of just essentially calling me a nazi and

00:30:53.500 if you can somehow get fascism from what i'm saying then you don't understand what i'm saying

00:30:58.600 That's my opinion on it.

00:31:00.860 Did you not think, sorry, Francis,

00:31:02.360 did you not think that a big part of the reasons

00:31:04.560 that people can get away with saying

00:31:06.620 that you're alt-right linked or whatever

00:31:08.000 is that free speech has become so associated

00:31:10.500 with the right-wing politics in this country and elsewhere?

00:31:13.760 Yeah, it's crazy.

00:31:14.900 I mean, the alt-right, like I said earlier,

00:31:16.200 they're not in favor of free speech.

00:31:18.160 They don't want that

00:31:18.820 because free speech means that Jewish people can say things

00:31:21.780 and they can't have Jewish people saying things

00:31:23.940 because they have really negative opinions about Jews

00:31:26.660 and they think that jewish people are i mean like stereotypically they think they're sneaky and evil

00:31:30.800 and it's like i've got loads of jewish friends who are clearly not sneaky and evil so just stop

00:31:35.560 saying it but you know they're not in favor of that so i mean the the idea that the left has

00:31:40.880 given up on free speech is an indication that the intersectionality and essentially socialism

00:31:45.900 is taking it over you can't be on the left anymore if you're not a socialist and socialist regimes

00:31:50.140 aren't in favor of free speech either because they're collectivist you know they want they

00:31:53.640 want curated speech, their own speech. You can say party propaganda, but you can't say something

00:31:58.120 dissenting. The dissenters have to be silenced. And I'm a dissenter. So moving on a little bit then

00:32:02.980 in terms of socialism and party politics, you've recently joined UKIP. I have. You have. And I

00:32:09.860 initially read that it was more of a trolley move by you. You were just having fun. Cam Dankula put

00:32:14.140 some stuff on his Twitter saying, if enough people retweet this, I'll join. Have you joined

00:32:19.080 on that basis or is there some kind of principled reason that you're... Actually, there's more of a

00:32:23.600 principle reason i mean like it's it's always funny to get their panties in a bunch because

00:32:28.000 they they i don't know why they call ukip far right ukip is a classical liberal party it's a

00:32:33.460 very british party you know i mean i've i've spoken to jared batten i've spoken to many of

00:32:37.780 the members of it now and i mean they they they have a section on the website when you go to sign

00:32:42.820 up saying look if you've ever been a member of the bmp the edl you know any of the sort of like

00:32:47.460 fascist parties you just can't join them but the argument there would be as a counter argument would

00:32:52.600 be that they need to do that because they have lots of people like that who would join the party

00:32:56.940 because it's a right-wing party well i mean maybe you know there are ex-bmp people in labor at the

00:33:02.400 moment so you know it's it i don't i don't think you should define yourself by what the racists do

00:33:08.980 you define yourself by your own principles and if you if i mean like i i'm i wouldn't call myself a

00:33:15.620 nationalist but i'm pro the nation state i think the nation state is a useful thing to exist i

00:33:20.800 I think it's good for the people that live under it.

00:33:22.880 And so if I'm in favor of the nation state, I'm not in favor of the European Union.

00:33:27.400 I'm not in favor of breaking down national borders.

00:33:29.280 I think that causes more problems than it solves.

00:33:31.500 And so a neo-Nazi would say, well, I'm obviously a nationalist as a neo-Nazi.

00:33:37.020 Therefore, if he's a nationalist, I would rather join him than Labour or the Conservatives

00:33:40.600 because they both seem to be for open borders.

00:33:43.340 And so they're just doing it for political expediency,

00:33:46.820 not because of consistency of opinion or ideological conformity.

00:33:49.700 but it's you know you've just got to keep these people out because we don't agree and ultimately

00:33:54.640 they would be the enemy if they had any political power the problem we have with them is the left

00:33:58.840 has absolute hegemony of the dialogue which is why someone like me a reasonable radical centrist

00:34:04.200 is is someone controversial i i was gonna say so you've joined ukip now my question always with

00:34:10.340 ukip is what's the point of ukip they're a one policy party they achieved their aim they got

00:34:14.840 brexit so what's the point they were a one policy party they're not anymore i think that ukip is

00:34:21.640 basically going to become the home of people who are tired of political correctness when it comes

00:34:25.480 to the point because i think one of the problems that most people have with political correctness

00:34:28.540 is the unearned moral superiority that people who claim to be promoting it claim and they they treat

00:34:34.780 you as such they treat you as if they are your moral betters and when you are finally sick and

00:34:39.920 tired of being spoken to like an ant then just say right okay i'm just going to join ukip and

00:34:44.700 you watch them recoil in horror of how could you do this well because you're the way you speak to

00:34:48.900 me that's why i'm not going to be spoken to like that i'm going to take political action against

00:34:52.380 you and it's going to be through ukip because ukip actually do stand for traditional british

00:34:56.100 values they actually stand for anti-authoritarianism like a more decentralization of power

00:35:01.500 free speech you know free thought they actually do stand for these things traditional british

00:35:06.000 values that we used to we used to project around the world and people would look up to

00:35:09.920 we're ashamed of now it's tragic and yeah i'm damn ram for ukip and i think that if you're if

00:35:16.260 you're sick of this crap then it's time for us to stop it well one of the issues that tainted i

00:35:20.620 think ukip was this link between brexit and xenophobia this idea that anyone who votes

00:35:26.400 for brexit is racist and by the way both francis and i voted remain but because we're good people

00:35:31.520 But as an immigrant in this country myself, I was incredibly frustrated that the argument against voting leave was essentially that anyone who votes leave is racist.

00:35:47.300 Because, as you said earlier, I think this is one of the most fundamentally progressive, open, welcoming, tolerant countries in the world, in the history of the world.

00:35:54.880 So the idea that half of the British public voted to leave the EU because they're racist, I think is insulting.

00:36:01.520 absolutely um but i i do think there were other things that did happen during the campaign like

00:36:05.920 nigel farage standing in front of that poster of migrants and whatever that the you can became

00:36:10.640 tainted is what is is what i'm driving at right in in the in the left-wing imagination certainly

00:36:15.600 i mean and then from the conservative point of view they've got no reason to try and counteract

00:36:19.920 that narrative because you kept a direct threat to the conservatives so why wouldn't they just

00:36:24.800 go along with that oh yeah they're racist they're xenophobes but if you actually just look at the

00:36:29.280 the reason that people were voting for brexit it was never about xenophobia or race or anything

00:36:33.540 like that i mean the north of england are suffering under mass immigration no one would

00:36:37.900 deny this even even the guardian writes articles explain oh yeah well you know maybe there's a

00:36:42.540 problem with you know maybe immigration has been handled badly in the north england and if you look

00:36:46.320 at tommy robinson's supporters they're desperate they are desperate they i mean there are there

00:36:51.320 are two videos that went around social media recently of um a group of people chasing out

00:36:55.460 what they perceive to be a grooming gang i don't know whether this was a grooming gang or not but

00:36:58.600 they they believed it was and another another group driving a van into the front of a kebab

00:37:04.400 shop because they believe a grooming gang operated from that it's like okay these people didn't start

00:37:08.800 like this they got like this because they think they're not being protected by the law and they're

00:37:12.820 taking it into their own hands that's bad you know we should be we should be talking to these people

00:37:16.900 with a bit of compassion because it might well be and i think that the rotherham report and the

00:37:20.600 various other 20 other cities that this has happened in shows that the working class in the

00:37:25.240 north really are suffering and we need to take that seriously and it's not to say that we need

00:37:29.640 to suddenly persecute muslims or something but we just need to accept that these communities

00:37:33.960 aren't perfect and there's a there's a definite cultural friction that's happening and the police

00:37:38.460 are siding with one group over another whether that's justified or not and it's got to be talked

00:37:43.340 about honestly but um if you look at if you look at brexit i mean most of it there was an article in

00:37:48.280 the new european uh a european magazine where they were essentially condemning brexit as english

00:37:54.320 exceptionalism in many ways that's true in many ways that's true because if there's if there's

00:37:59.660 one way to describe English political life for the last 800 years since the signing of the Magna

00:38:05.340 Carta it's the word accountability that's the English demand it you cannot rule over this

00:38:12.040 country without being accountable and no one can hold the commission to account you can't hold

00:38:16.420 young John called Juncker to account at all and it's it's ridiculous to put an extra layer between

00:38:21.880 the voter and the lawmakers and and even then the MEPs aren't even the lawmakers they just vote on

00:38:28.080 the laws that are proposed by the commission so now you've got three layers between the voter

00:38:32.720 the MP the MEP the European Council and it keeps going I mean that is that's anathema to English

00:38:39.860 political life it's no wonder the English were like no we just want out we want our sovereignty

00:38:43.080 back we want to be able to hold our politicians accountable we want the laws made in this country

00:38:46.540 and there's no reason that the continent should have any say over it and I can't say I disagree

00:38:50.680 at all i voted brexit 100 on sovereignty and i would do so in a heartbeat i don't care what it

00:38:55.760 costs me i don't care really so because i voted remain because joking aside i'm a pragmatist

00:39:01.940 i have i live in london i have a lot of friends who are small business owners to me it's there

00:39:07.940 and my dad is would absolutely agree with you my dad married a latin american woman in the 1970s

00:39:14.400 when it wasn't a cool thing to do when people were saying to him do you want your baby to be

00:39:18.340 born with curly hair all that kind of thing and my dad went ahead and did that and they're still

00:39:22.320 together and all the rest of it yeah that's pretty straight well yeah it's because my mother's got

00:39:25.820 um a native american indian and they've got very straight hair because they related to chinese

00:39:30.620 people but yeah so they didn't know that but anyway um so but he would believe in that i

00:39:36.440 come from it as a point of view it's like if it's going to damage your economy and it's going to

00:39:40.920 damage it irreparably which is my fear then i'm as bad as it sounds i understand where you're

00:39:48.320 coming from but pragmatically i don't want to be in a poorer society i don't want the economy to

00:39:54.140 suffer i don't want to be poorer for my children your children or anybody else's do you think they

00:39:58.980 said that in greece well but we're not greece and here's the thing and i realize that greece is its

00:40:05.080 its own what about spain or italy but what about eastern europe you know it's the european union i

00:40:11.540 think is a i don't think it's i don't think it's what they think it is or what the court will tell

00:40:16.020 you i think it is effectively um part of the european elite's plan to create a supernational

00:40:21.660 entity across europe that will raise national sovereignty and create a european super state

00:40:25.900 a united states of europe i don't agree i especially don't agree that it will be effectively

00:40:30.180 ruled by germany and the idea of the germans ruling over britain is just horrendous to me

00:40:35.020 the the germans are they think in a different way to the english the english don't trust their

00:40:40.720 institutions they don't think that they're going to get things right i mean do you trust the

00:40:44.200 institutions no exactly exactly but a german has faith in the bundesbank they have faith in the

00:40:49.400 right in the reichstag they have faith in their politicians and they act differently they act in

00:40:53.760 a way that is in concordance with this and that's okay to be fair from what i know of germany the

00:40:58.400 very that it seems far better run and far more equal society sure but it's a lot less free yeah

00:41:04.160 and that's the problem i have as an englishman i i want my freedom for example i don't have an

00:41:08.020 id card you don't have an id card they do in germany you want an id card no not particularly

00:41:13.900 why not uh why not because i would see it as controlling but control from the state so you

00:41:19.620 don't want to be run by germany then see when it comes down to it you know that like a pragmatic

00:41:24.940 argument is an excuse not to stand on principle you're saying well it's going to cost us money

00:41:28.860 we may as well just do this not the worst in the world well i think that the the way that the

00:41:32.780 european union has gone i don't see it getting i don't see it being reformed i think it's being

00:41:37.460 deliberately sent in this trajectory and i think that they probably knew it was inevitable the

00:41:41.800 british would want to leave because at the end of the day it really does come down to accountability

00:41:45.880 and i i think it's the right thing to do even if we lose money but even then the economic

00:41:49.440 predictions didn't come to pass you know i don't think that they've i think everyone's too invested

00:41:54.380 in the trade agreements to be able to say well we're not going to trade with you then i think

00:41:57.680 they're going to do it they're going to do it because they need to do it because otherwise

00:41:59.920 their industries are going to collapse our industries will collapse it's in everyone's

00:42:02.900 interest to form an agreement the the problem the european union has is um i guess you would

00:42:08.920 describe as just power politics. They are on a very unstable base at the moment. I mean,

00:42:13.300 you see what's happening in Italy at the moment, the sort of Central European coalition that's

00:42:16.880 coming about. The fact that it's essentially Germany and France trying to prop themselves up,

00:42:21.440 and then the British are leaving. We're the second biggest contributor to the European unit.

00:42:25.060 Where are they getting that money from? Theresa May should be using this as a stick to beat them

00:42:29.080 with. But once she's got them in control and saying, right, we're not going to give you any

00:42:32.200 money and you're on your own, we'll take the pain. They'll be like, okay, okay, well, can we come to

00:42:35.900 an agreement and we'll say yes we can come to an agreement we can be reasonable but we can't let

00:42:40.300 them dictate because they will just take us for all we're worth we have to be in a position to

00:42:44.460 be able to get a fair deal but we're not at the moment because Theresa May is weak and that's my

00:42:49.120 worry is that principally what you're saying is could be correct my worry is is that I look at a

00:42:56.260 lot of these conservatives and I'm like I don't think any of you are competent I agree and that's

00:43:02.020 my worry and what are we actually

00:43:03.960 going to leave with? They're going to mess

00:43:06.040 it up and it's going to be painful but

00:43:07.900 in 20 years time it will be

00:43:09.880 I bet the content doesn't get

00:43:11.960 any better. I bet it doesn't get

00:43:13.880 I bet it doesn't improve one iota

00:43:15.640 and in 20 years time your kids are going to be like dad I'm so

00:43:18.020 glad we're not living in Germany or France right now

00:43:19.860 or Spain or Italy or Portugal. I'm

00:43:21.980 so glad that we got out while we could

00:43:23.860 I bet they do. Alright mate

00:43:25.980 you've got to have some kids

00:43:26.900 so they can be happy about Brexit

00:43:30.080 Having taught for 10 years

00:43:31.660 and I doubt my children would ever look at me and go,

00:43:34.440 I bet you were right.

00:43:36.240 That's not the way children behave, sadly.

00:43:38.680 But yeah, it's a salient point.

00:43:40.420 And it's also very interesting.

00:43:42.100 You touched on immigration.

00:43:43.320 You said open borders doesn't work.

00:43:45.300 Yes.

00:43:46.120 What would you propose?

00:43:47.560 That is, what do we need to do as a country then?

00:43:49.820 Because we need immigration.

00:43:51.200 The reality is we are an aging population.

00:43:53.540 We have a deficit of skills that we need for our NHS,

00:43:57.080 engineering, all the rest of it.

00:43:58.740 So what is your proposal, essentially?

00:44:02.320 Okay, so the immigration issue is an interesting one.

00:44:05.560 And there are many different factors that are playing into this.

00:44:08.700 So there's like an iron law of wealth.

00:44:13.660 When a country becomes wealthy, the middle class stops producing as many children.

00:44:18.880 And this is a problem because then you've got a larger number of older people in the economy

00:44:22.960 who are taking pensions and taking benefits and whatnot on Social Security.

00:44:28.740 out of the economy and there are less people paying into it this does create a problem and

00:44:32.500 it's honestly a miscarriage from the more selfish younger middle classes i mean i was the same in

00:44:37.540 my 20s you know i only i only had a son when i was 35 you know um and so it's it's definitely

00:44:44.260 a problem that's happening but the the flip side of this is if we keep poaching the intelligent

00:44:50.500 educated people from the third world which we do we say you come over here you make lots of money

00:44:55.620 and they will, especially compared to someone in Romania or Bulgaria, you know, a doctor there is

00:45:00.260 going to make something like a thousand dollars a month, whereas over here they're going to make

00:45:07.020 something like 30 or 40 thousand pounds a year. It's an obvious choice for them, but they were

00:45:11.240 educated by their country. I mean, their country nurtured them, raised them, educated them, you

00:45:16.040 know, and it was, you know, public money that provided this, and we're stealing that. So in a

00:45:19.500 way, it's kind of like a reverse form of colonialism. We're still exploiting these countries by taking

00:45:24.280 their talent. They need these people to improve their countries, to build their countries up

00:45:28.080 into first world countries. So at what point do we say, right, I mean, we have a moral responsibility

00:45:33.820 not to take advantage of our position of privilege over them. And so I personally would suggest that

00:45:41.500 we need to look to educating the working classes in this country. I think, especially in the north,

00:45:46.420 after Thatcher decimated the coal industry and steel industry, obviously, these people need some

00:45:51.680 kind of retraining obviously has to be voluntary on their part but I think there could be government

00:45:55.680 initiatives for these on the deprived white communities in the north that they they need

00:46:00.780 to have a leg up they need to be said look you can be doctors technicians all the all the skills

00:46:06.940 we need we've got to we've got to start you know building that up because otherwise we're not

00:46:11.720 otherwise we are continually preying on the third world countries that we're taking people in from

00:46:16.760 and with an open borders policy like taking in the working poor of other countries

00:46:20.860 that's bad for our own working poor you know that's just creating competition it depresses

00:46:25.660 wages we they know that their their nhs um the nhs is continually under stress because 250 000

00:46:32.620 new people a year are coming here i mean they don't pay into the system and yet they're taking

00:46:37.060 out of the system it's not sustainable and the working class in the north are getting furious

00:46:41.980 about it this is why you see the support the raw support for tommy robinson is scary to me

00:46:46.600 and anyone in the middle class should be looking at that and going wow we have a problem i mean i've

00:46:50.620 I've met Tommy Robinson on, I think, four, five different occasions, right?

00:46:54.260 And, like, you know, we go to a place like this to do an interview or something like that.

00:46:57.360 And on the way there, right, I mean, I was in Sussex, I think I was,

00:47:03.500 to do an interview for a piece for the day for Freedom From.

00:47:06.280 And we arrived at this hotel, and I saw it.

00:47:09.540 And every time, it's always the same kind of guy.

00:47:11.940 He's, like, a shortish, rough-looking, tattoos, you know, sort of balding,

00:47:17.080 sort of, you know, middle-aged sort of guy.

00:47:18.600 and he spies Tommy

00:47:19.800 he looks around

00:47:20.740 he walks up

00:47:21.360 and goes

00:47:21.660 thanks for everything you're doing mate

00:47:23.020 and just walks off

00:47:23.780 like nothing happened

00:47:24.400 that happened twice

00:47:25.140 in this one elevator

00:47:26.060 and I was just like

00:47:27.040 holy shit

00:47:27.880 you know

00:47:28.420 when people recognise me

00:47:29.400 in the street

00:47:29.640 they're usually like

00:47:30.120 fans of mine

00:47:30.480 and they're very loud

00:47:31.480 and open about it

00:47:32.160 they're like

00:47:32.380 oh sorry

00:47:32.840 I love you again

00:47:33.540 thanks very much

00:47:34.140 but these people

00:47:35.060 are completely different

00:47:35.740 this was grim

00:47:36.620 and serious

00:47:37.320 and there is something

00:47:38.320 dangerous brewing

00:47:39.120 in the north

00:47:39.620 and we need to

00:47:40.340 we need to deal with it

00:47:41.260 and we can't just sit

00:47:41.900 and go

00:47:42.120 oh it's racist

00:47:43.060 it's not going to make it go away

00:47:44.400 and it's not going to get any better

00:47:45.500 and as we saw

00:47:46.180 the vigilante attacks

00:47:47.380 that were going around on social media,

00:47:49.380 the chasing out of the grooming gang

00:47:50.780 and the smashing in of the Turkish command shop.

00:47:53.820 These people aren't going to sit there quietly.

00:47:56.160 They're not just going to allow this to continue to happen to them.

00:47:58.340 So we have to be very serious about immigration,

00:48:00.360 and we've got to take into account the reality

00:48:02.220 of different social value systems.

00:48:06.300 There's no getting around the fact that conservative Islam

00:48:08.700 is not really compatible as a value system

00:48:12.220 with Western English values.

00:48:14.740 They're just different,

00:48:15.900 And when they hit each other, they cause real tension in these communities.

00:48:21.180 And they cause fights, they cause gang wars, victimizations, bullying.

00:48:25.080 We see this all the time on social media because people show it.

00:48:28.000 And it's, I mean, it's, there was a video the other day of this guy from,

00:48:32.140 he sounded like, you know, somewhere in the north.

00:48:33.960 And he was just recording from his van of this Muslim guy who was basically bullying

00:48:38.060 this other little skinny white guy.

00:48:39.800 And he was getting to take off his shoes because he had some nice shoes on.

00:48:42.320 And this guy walked up and said, look, what are you doing?

00:48:43.860 What are you doing? And he was like, you know, fuck off Kufar or something like that.

00:48:47.100 And it's so right.

00:48:47.660 OK, that is that is a conflict of identity and values, right?

00:48:51.500 He has just otherized him.

00:48:52.620 He's called him Kufar, barbarian, effectively, you know, and this guy is squaring up to him.

00:48:57.100 And the guy was just like, I'm going to put you on your ass, mate, if you don't back down.

00:48:59.500 It's like these communities have to learn how to interface.

00:49:03.620 But hold on.

00:49:04.460 Hold on.

00:49:05.100 Most of the immigration to this country in recent years, particularly the immigration

00:49:08.520 that caused people to leave, to vote to leave, if there is an element of that, it's not been from Muslim countries.

00:49:13.620 There's not been Muslim people.

00:49:14.620 There's been Romanians, Bulgarians, et cetera.

00:49:16.500 And there are problems with that.

00:49:17.300 I mean, in Carlisle, there were Polish gangs

00:49:19.020 that were, like, causing trouble and smashing places up

00:49:21.940 and all this sort of thing.

00:49:23.980 Well, I don't disagree with you, by the way.

00:49:25.640 No, no, I'm not.

00:49:26.740 I'm just using Islam as an easy example

00:49:28.720 because the identity of Muslim is very strong.

00:49:31.320 You know, it's very, very strong.

00:49:32.700 And it's easy for a Muslim to embrace, you know.

00:49:35.220 And I'm not criticizing it or denigrating it.

00:49:37.340 It's just it is.

00:49:38.840 You know, I'm not saying it ought to be anything.

00:49:40.400 It just is.

00:49:41.000 and it's i mean this is i watched um i watched a video that was recorded on speaker's corner a

00:49:46.200 while ago and you had two groups a group of muslims who were chanting something arabic and

00:49:52.140 a group of english chaps who are chanting rural britannia and it was like this you couldn't ask

00:49:57.400 for a better demonstration that it's a question of identity you know i mean there's it it all

00:50:02.840 comes down to a system of values and we have to be able to talk about this we have to come to a

00:50:06.980 conclusion it's and it's the same with like you know eastern europeans in the north as well that

00:50:10.520 the you know there are cultural problems i mean it's a lot less of a problem usually with eastern

00:50:15.260 europeans because normally they have a lot more in common you know but it's we have to accept that

00:50:20.320 some cultures have values that are so fundamentally different to our own that they can't just be

00:50:26.580 allowed to form large what effectively parallel societies this is something the danes are coming

00:50:31.240 to realize and the swedes are coming to realize themselves they've got huge areas in their cities

00:50:34.760 that are just no-go areas if you're white.

00:50:37.960 And it's like, we can't have that.

00:50:39.580 Well, that's why I always say that.

00:50:40.740 I think if you have immigration and you're open to immigration,

00:50:43.500 what you have to be able to do is to have a limit on immigration

00:50:47.180 such that you can integrate people.

00:50:48.700 Absolutely.

00:50:49.100 That you can bring.

00:50:49.860 So with immigration, it's a fascinating thing.

00:50:51.760 I'm doing some research for an article I'm writing on it.

00:50:54.100 I came to this country in 1995.

00:50:57.040 Around that time, in 1997,

00:50:59.360 3% of the British public thought immigration was a major issue.

00:51:02.780 3%.

00:51:03.380 Now it's more like 50 or 60%.

00:51:05.020 And if you look at the chart for concern about immigration on the one hand,

00:51:09.360 and then immigration, they're literally the same line.

00:51:12.960 Basically, people get more concerned about immigration as there's more immigration

00:51:16.180 because people feel like those people can't be integrated.

00:51:18.880 It's not an irrational concern.

00:51:20.440 It's something that's really affecting their lives.

00:51:22.260 But if you say what you've just said, I know people in my own life

00:51:26.140 who if they watch that bit that you just talked about, Muslim identity or whatever,

00:51:30.600 they're going to say, oh, he's an Islamophobe.

00:51:32.460 But, I mean, what have I said that's offensively?

00:51:35.260 I mean, what have I said that's not true?

00:51:36.820 I know, but that's the thing.

00:51:38.020 That's the question.

00:51:38.420 But that's my point, is that we live in a world now

00:51:40.500 where it's almost like you're the wrong skin colour

00:51:43.420 and the wrong gender and the wrong whatever

00:51:46.680 to be talking about these issues.

00:51:48.540 Like, if you're a woman being critical of feminism,

00:51:50.820 it's much more palatable.

00:51:52.100 If you're a Muslim, I mean, Majid Nawaz still gets a ton of shit

00:51:55.240 from what he says.

00:51:55.880 I love Majid, by the way.

00:51:56.780 Yeah, of course you do.

00:51:57.700 Of course you do, because he's a liberal.

00:51:59.500 Exactly.

00:51:59.680 But someone like him, it's more palatable, like a middle class person watching this interview with Majid would be like, OK, well, fine, he's entitled to say that.

00:52:09.540 He might be completely wrong and whatever, but he's entitled to say that.

00:52:12.440 But you are not.

00:52:13.260 But doesn't that just show the hegemony of far left beliefs?

00:52:16.780 The fact that I'm the wrong race means I can't talk about this.

00:52:19.800 I reject that completely.

00:52:21.140 I think anyone of any race can talk about any subject as long as they're talking from a position of principle and they're actually talking about factual things that are happening.

00:52:27.780 i don't see why anyone of any race can't talk about any issue i think that's ridiculous you

00:52:31.720 know and i don't think that accusing people of prejudice when they're actually bringing up real

00:52:34.880 things giving real examples and and concrete reasons a logical progression for their argument

00:52:40.180 i don't see why the accusation of prejudice is even necessary i mean i went to university in

00:52:44.460 coventry i used to live with muslim people i think this was before i even knew what i didn't even

00:52:48.520 know the word muslim because when i was you know 20 years old i was pretty uneducated you know and

00:52:52.980 uh i don't care i take people as individuals you know i take people as they come so if they're if

00:52:57.460 you're nice to me i'm gonna be nice to you back regardless of what you believe because i think

00:53:00.520 i think right action is through i think more i think moral action and morality is through your

00:53:06.580 action and intention you know i mean if if you intend to do something good and you mess it up

00:53:12.360 then i don't think you're an immoral person i think you might be an incompetent person

00:53:15.540 but if you're doing something that's right but you're doing it for malevolent reasons

00:53:19.120 you are still being malevolent so even you know even if you're you're doing it you know what

00:53:24.440 you're doing and you're doing it deliberately and so i think that we should be judged on those

00:53:28.060 sorts of categories rather than just the political beliefs of someone or the fact that they would

00:53:32.160 dare speak out of turn because of their race or gender i mean that to me is horrifically oppressive

00:53:37.620 well there is an element to that argument which i think partly is true which is that

00:53:41.720 as a person of a certain background right you haven't had the lived experience of someone else

00:53:48.380 there are certain things that you've not not experienced in a kind of visceral way

00:53:52.280 that someone else might and when they speak from that position it gives their argument a little

00:53:57.320 bit more like if we were talking about russia say right you probably would listen a little bit more

00:54:01.440 carefully to me than to francis because he's not russian i would think you'd have direct experience

00:54:05.340 but i mean that that just presupposes that i can't be empathetic towards you i mean i you know i i

00:54:10.300 there's a there's a muslim chap who often picks me up from my house to take me to the train station

00:54:14.380 we always talk about islam and i i floated with him the idea today of using the term conservative

00:54:20.260 Islam versus liberal Islam because we need to be able to distinguish between the mobs of people

00:54:25.200 who are marching through the streets wearing the the thobe I think it's called and the burqas

00:54:29.640 chanting death to the west you know freedom go to hell and the liberal Muslims who go on the BBC

00:54:34.800 and talk about how they're progressives you know they're not the same they don't think the same

00:54:39.160 you know we we can't just categorize these people in the same way and I mean he's a very liberal

00:54:43.820 you know and so I I think it's important that we make these distinctions and I can empathize with

00:54:50.240 him when he's saying well i don't like the fact that i'm being demonized as a muslim of course

00:54:54.320 you don't you know i don't like the idea that if i go to if i went to moscow i'd be demonized for

00:54:58.460 being an english hooligan even though i'm obviously i'm not a football fan you know

00:55:01.700 and so i i completely understand the problem and you are right you you have direct knowledge of

00:55:07.120 what it's like to be in russia so it probably would be worth more than your opinion but if

00:55:10.680 you had an informed opinion on something going on that doesn't make your opinion invalid you know

00:55:15.260 And you might have a more subjective

00:55:16.940 and less actually factually based opinion

00:55:19.720 based on your own personal lived experiences.

00:55:22.780 It depends on the data, depends on studies,

00:55:24.840 depends on what's actually happening.

00:55:26.160 It's about modeling reality accurately.

00:55:29.000 As long as you can model reality accurately,

00:55:31.100 it doesn't really matter what you are.

00:55:33.060 What matters is what you're saying is true or false.

00:55:35.140 I think that's what it fundamentally comes down to

00:55:36.940 is the ability to have an actual conversation.

00:55:40.100 And if people can be heard, then it doesn't matter.

00:55:42.420 If Francis says something about Russia that's wrong,

00:55:44.120 if I don't take offence to that

00:55:46.000 and we actually have a discussion

00:55:47.260 it doesn't matter

00:55:48.220 because we can educate

00:55:49.300 yeah exactly

00:55:49.860 we can educate each other

00:55:50.860 and the issue

00:55:51.920 the fear that I feel

00:55:53.780 and this is talking from

00:55:55.200 my own personal experience

00:55:56.300 so when you're for instance

00:55:57.200 talking about Islam

00:55:58.440 or what's going on in the north

00:55:59.400 number one

00:55:59.860 I don't know enough about it

00:56:01.160 so I start getting anxious

00:56:02.740 number two

00:56:03.260 I grew up in a pretty racist

00:56:05.320 right wing

00:56:06.280 part of South London

00:56:08.160 and for instance

00:56:09.700 the pub down my road

00:56:10.800 I used to have an England flag

00:56:12.240 flying at all times

00:56:13.100 Asian people would get beaten up

00:56:15.360 in and around that area

00:56:16.720 I used to work in men's class

00:56:19.720 predominantly with white working class people

00:56:21.620 some of whom were lovely

00:56:22.860 some of whom were vile

00:56:25.640 to be honest with you

00:56:26.620 and their opinions were vile

00:56:27.960 and when someone talks about that

00:56:30.620 talks and discusses ideas

00:56:34.140 as you've just done

00:56:35.400 I feel a sense of anxiety thinking

00:56:37.100 are we just seeing a regression

00:56:39.300 that is my fear

00:56:40.760 Are we seeing a regression back to that sort of time?

00:56:43.480 Well, it's interesting to say that because, I mean, my dad was in the 70s.

00:56:46.720 He was a teenager.

00:56:47.700 And being a mixed race teenager, he was very obviously not white British.

00:56:51.420 And so he was one of the eldest of his five, I think six brothers.

00:56:54.980 I think it was six of them they had.

00:56:56.640 And so my dad was often called upon to go and fight in the defense of one of my younger uncles who was being bullied on racial grounds.

00:57:04.220 I'm well aware.

00:57:05.600 I mean, I grew up listening to stories of this from my nan.

00:57:07.860 I mean, my dad was genuinely ashamed

00:57:10.700 when my nan told me about a time

00:57:12.100 that he took a plank of wood

00:57:13.220 and broke some kid's arm

00:57:14.280 for being racist to my uncle, my uncle Colin.

00:57:16.280 And I was just proud as punch.

00:57:17.800 I was like, dad, that's amazing.

00:57:19.620 He was like, no, no, you shouldn't do that.

00:57:21.140 And it's like, no, dad, you have to sometimes.

00:57:23.020 Sometimes you have to stand up for these things.

00:57:24.940 And I do understand the fear of that,

00:57:27.780 but I don't think we can allow that to be pathological

00:57:29.980 because then when it gets to that point,

00:57:31.420 we can't even have the conversation

00:57:32.580 and the conversations need to be had.

00:57:34.780 We have to have this.

00:57:35.440 out i mean like do you ever deconvert a racist by silencing a racist i would say not no no but

00:57:44.580 argument i would say counter argument to that is you never you're not dealing with the racist what

00:57:49.240 you're dealing with is the people listening to the racist absolutely if you shut him up they then

00:57:54.280 don't hear the racist stuff they then don't sure they do hear you being tyrannical they didn't hear

00:57:59.360 him being racist they heard you accusing him of being racist and then being tyrannical against him

00:58:03.780 And if he says, well, I'm not a racist, mate, then you just look unjustified.

00:58:08.500 You know, if he hasn't even had the chance to air these terrible beliefs, then we can't address them.

00:58:12.840 We can't talk him down from it. We can't talk other people watching down from it.

00:58:16.300 And you look bad by doing it. You look like you're being authoritarian.

00:58:20.780 And I think that that's the complete opposite way of making someone not a racist.

00:58:26.140 You know, I think the only way to do it is literally talk them through their beliefs calmly, you know, without attacking them and say, look, you know, let me hear why you think this.

00:58:33.680 and then I can address the actual reasons you have.

00:58:36.440 And you can only ever change someone's mind

00:58:38.300 by actually addressing what they're saying on its own merits.

00:58:41.460 You know, you can't make someone different.

00:58:43.320 All you can do is make them resentful and hostile.

00:58:46.260 And I think that's honestly what the left has been doing

00:58:48.660 as a kind of political tactic.

00:58:50.400 We're just going to shut you down.

00:58:51.800 And now it's got to the point where 20,000 people are out in the street

00:58:54.600 because Tommy Robinson got jailed for good reason.

00:58:57.500 I mean, he shouldn't have been interrupting the court.

00:58:59.820 They were doing what he wanted to do, prosecuting a grooming gang.

00:59:02.820 Tommy, what are you doing?

00:59:03.520 you know, but I'm a supporter of Tommy. I think that normalizing this conversation is important

00:59:06.660 because it has to happen. It has to, you know, the support he's got, you can't just sweep this

00:59:11.500 under the rug. And so now we have to start getting the representatives of these groups and saying,

00:59:15.080 look, talk us through your problem. We want, you know, are they actually racist? They might not

00:59:19.260 be racist. I mean, I think a lot of them aren't. I mean, a lot of the members of the EDL weren't

00:59:23.280 white. You know, they had a lot of Sikh and black people because the Muslim identity doesn't care

00:59:28.360 about racism. You know, it's actually very aracial. And so if you're not a Muslim and you're black,

00:59:33.520 that doesn't mean that a gang of muslims won't beat you up you know they don't give a shit

00:59:37.580 you know and i'm not saying obviously that's not all muslims but there are muslim gangs who do that

00:59:41.560 you know energetic young men who take an identity and it's just like the football hooligans you know

00:59:47.280 if you're not one of us if you're not an arsenal fan you'll beat up a milwall fan or something like

00:59:51.080 that you know it's exactly the same kind of psychology and process absolutely but is that

00:59:56.240 the my problem is that isn't the fault of the religion like it isn't the fault of football

01:00:01.020 or the football club

01:00:02.880 the fact that some people take

01:00:04.440 an ideology to his extreme

01:00:06.740 I didn't say that it was

01:00:08.000 I'm not making a theological argument or anything like that

01:00:10.660 there's no point

01:00:11.220 I'm an atheist but I've got no interest in trying to persuade someone

01:00:14.480 that God doesn't exist

01:00:15.280 there's no denying that there's a conflict

01:00:18.500 identities are

01:00:20.540 effectively representations of value systems

01:00:22.820 you value

01:00:24.680 something like

01:00:25.280 what was the chap who punched a terrorist in the fucking Millwall

01:00:29.180 oh right yes

01:00:30.200 what's he saying when he says I'm Millwall what's he saying he's saying I have a value system I

01:00:35.680 believe something you know and that matters and it was in contrast to the terrorist value system

01:00:40.600 obviously when he's yelling Allah or whatever he's making a statement of values too and it it's

01:00:46.000 summed up in the identities and so it's important that we talk about these things without throwing

01:00:51.100 allegations because that's the only way we can find a way to synthesize these so they can actually

01:00:55.620 live in harmony because otherwise you're effectively creating armed camps against one

01:00:59.900 another they're always going to be watching don't you dare say something about my group or i'm going

01:01:03.560 to get you you know they're always going to be doing that and we can't have that and that's what

01:01:07.340 banter's for that's what banter's for you know that's why we don't do it with the scots and the

01:01:10.880 welsh you know and they don't do it to us it's because after so many years of this you know

01:01:14.560 being in contact we've realized that if we just talk to one another we have a bit of a laugh at

01:01:19.120 each other's expense and relax about things it's not so bad is it you know and so you you touched

01:01:25.820 on tommy robinson do you would you say that because there's a lot of people he's not a racist

01:01:30.100 okay he's not a racist why would you say he's not a racist because he's not a racist he doesn't

01:01:36.840 because he doesn't he's he's not concerned about the race of the person he he would he would be

01:01:41.120 as opposed to a ginger muslim as a brown muslim how's that it's not it's not a race he tommy you

01:01:47.060 could legitimately call Tommy an Islamophobe I think Tommy because and the thing is right people

01:01:50.760 people have got to remember the bigots aren't born they're made they're made by circumstance

01:01:55.060 you know I mean like Tommy grew up I I did I did an interview with him about three years ago because

01:01:59.840 it was it was kind of edgy and I thought this would be interesting edgy you know see see if I

01:02:03.380 can have a you know debate Tommy Robinson this would be interesting I think he just started

01:02:06.240 telling me about things that happened to him about how like I mean the one that stuck stuck out to

01:02:10.800 me is how uh I think it was just one of his friend's mums uh his parents they were being

01:02:15.840 bullied by a muslim gang on their on their street and they're you know getting bricks thrown at

01:02:20.500 their house and stuff and they were armed at bats and stuff like that so all the all the young lads

01:02:25.400 local lads ran down to to defend them and then the cops came and arrested the local lads and didn't

01:02:31.140 i mean these guys the muslim gang was standing there with weapons and they did nothing and it's

01:02:35.960 like right okay i can see why you're annoyed i mean his his cousin was groomed by a grooming gang

01:02:40.680 and there's so much social pressure

01:02:43.540 and bullying and intimidation

01:02:45.720 against these people

01:02:46.440 that they're desperate

01:02:47.340 and they feel the need to fight back.

01:02:50.040 That's what's made Tommy what he is.

01:02:51.800 It's not that he gives a shit about the race.

01:02:53.820 It's that he feels

01:02:54.840 that the way of life is under threat.

01:02:57.300 And I don't think it's fair

01:02:58.280 that we can just say,

01:02:59.060 well, screw your way of life.

01:03:00.880 It's a tough life.

01:03:02.340 You don't get the protection of the law,

01:03:03.620 unfortunately.

01:03:04.360 That's utterly unjust.

01:03:06.320 And do you think the British way of life

01:03:07.680 is under threat?

01:03:09.020 I think in the north of England it is.

01:03:11.480 I mean, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing if it wasn't.

01:03:14.800 In what particular areas?

01:03:17.160 Somewhere like Manchester? Is it in provincial towns?

01:03:20.360 Birmingham's about to become a minority white English town.

01:03:25.640 Do you think the English way of life is going to continue there,

01:03:27.940 or do you think that a more Islamic way of life is going to continue there?

01:03:30.320 And is it predominantly Islamic,

01:03:31.680 because there's also a large black Caribbean community,

01:03:34.280 and they're predominantly Christians?

01:03:37.160 Well, yeah, now that's really interesting, isn't it?

01:03:39.040 because this is one of the things that The Guardian,

01:03:41.920 this is something they picked up on.

01:03:43.320 So I did a video called, Was Enoch Powell Right?

01:03:46.240 And I knew that I was going to be provocative.

01:03:47.700 Oh, did you?

01:03:48.420 Oh, yeah, but my answer was no.

01:03:50.500 I can't remember, what's the law?

01:03:52.060 When an article ends in a question mark,

01:03:55.380 the answer's always no.

01:03:56.720 But my answer was no.

01:03:57.540 This was a speech I gave outside of 10 Downstreet,

01:03:59.560 because he wasn't right.

01:04:01.400 Black Caribbean people and black African people

01:04:03.960 integrate wonderfully into here.

01:04:05.500 I mean, I used to work with a bunch of Nigerians,

01:04:07.040 And honestly, I couldn't believe just how normal they were.

01:04:10.880 You know, they fit in completely because it wasn't ideological.

01:04:14.680 And that's the thing.

01:04:15.280 With Islam, there is an ideological component that means they have a set of axioms that they have to build on to build their beliefs.

01:04:22.720 And so, I mean, one of them for the grooming gangs, if a woman is not dressing and behaving to Islamic standards, then they're considered effectively a prostitute.

01:04:32.160 and so that morally legitimizes

01:04:34.540 doing something to any of these people

01:04:37.140 because they're not Muslims, they're whores

01:04:38.840 they're disgusting, it's okay to do that

01:04:40.800 it doesn't make you a bad person if you do that

01:04:42.640 that's not an attitude that black Caribbean's

01:04:45.020 hold, you know, they're very

01:04:46.500 very easy, I mean

01:04:48.060 I always find it, my wife watches these standards

01:04:50.800 and it's very easy to see how like

01:04:52.520 you can see British values being espoused

01:04:54.900 by people of all races on there, but it's all the same value

01:04:56.960 system, you know, they all agree

01:04:58.720 on what right and wrong is

01:05:00.640 you know and that's that's very much the same the case with like the sikhs hindus black caribbeans

01:05:06.400 black africans it's it's not ideological but with islam it does have an ideology built within it

01:05:12.460 and there are certain like ideological aspects that come from the theology of islam but honestly

01:05:18.420 i don't think that we can really address i think that would have to the addressing of that has to

01:05:21.600 come within the muslim community but um i think that's the reason why enoch powell was wrong it's

01:05:26.840 not about their race it's about what they believe that culture and most cultures can be pluralistic

01:05:33.040 most of them we don't have a problem with in fact most of them the british are remarkably

01:05:36.760 protective over i mean growing up a military family we lionized the gurkhas my god you know

01:05:42.300 you could never say a bad thing about gurkha you know but i think that we've got to be realistic

01:05:47.480 and we've got to look at what's happening with these and they are becoming parallel societies

01:05:52.320 with their own legal systems, their own cultural norms,

01:05:55.560 and ones that are often in violation of our own moral standards.

01:05:59.700 And I don't think we can pretend that's not happening.

01:06:02.140 But it's also, as well, everybody's own interpretation of a religion.

01:06:05.260 Like you said before, there are sort of liberals,

01:06:07.860 I know a lot of Muslim people,

01:06:10.040 and they don't hold those value systems.

01:06:13.680 I agree with you.

01:06:14.380 I think that the problem is half of our mosques,

01:06:17.840 46% of the mosques in this country are Diabandi mosques.

01:06:20.420 and this is a fundamentalist Pakistani ideology and it was created as a response to the British

01:06:26.500 Empire. It's the same ideology that the Taliban followed. It's created in response to the British

01:06:30.240 Empire because they felt that liberal values were actually corrupting Islam and they wanted to

01:06:34.480 return to a more sort of fundamentalist version and this is something that's come with the

01:06:40.380 Pakistani migration to Britain. I think we need to regulate this a lot more. I don't think we should

01:06:44.780 allow fundamentalist mosques and fundamentalist imams to preach hatred of gays and Jews and the

01:06:50.400 kuffar in these things and they do not all of them hold on doesn't that counteract what you said

01:06:54.860 earlier about free speech though should they not have well that's incitement isn't it it's not

01:06:58.840 not necessarily to violence it's just an expression of opinion like well brendan o'neill who we had on

01:07:03.860 he he's defended uh imams who've preached this stuff but you you wouldn't well honestly i wouldn't

01:07:09.660 i think i think um i mean in in an ideal world then sure but unfortunately i think you've got

01:07:14.600 to agree with kind of karl popper on this one if you tolerate something that is intolerable

01:07:18.880 and then the intolerable thing will eventually consume what it was being what was being tolerant

01:07:23.640 of it like for example i wouldn't i don't think people should be arrested for being neo-nazis but

01:07:27.860 i think that if they're holding neo-nazi rallies then these things should probably be prescribed

01:07:32.040 you know we can't just allow these sort of things to grow like a cancer and take over our society

01:07:36.880 we can't allow that we're going to lose the pluralistic tolerant values that we're our

01:07:40.400 society's built on you know we do have to be protective of that and there's nothing wrong

01:07:43.900 with saying look if you're preaching death to jews death to gays death to you know death to

01:07:47.940 everyone and you're gaining a significant following because of your religious authority

01:07:51.680 because you have moral authority in these communities then maybe something should be

01:07:55.180 done and i don't like it as a free speech absolutist i don't like it but unfortunately

01:07:59.040 sometimes we do have to accept the pragmatic reality as you're saying about the european

01:08:02.780 union it's sometimes you've got to pick your battles and i realize there's an inconsistency

01:08:07.240 there but what can we do do we just allow this to continue do we allow the do we allow the

01:08:12.420 profligation of fundamentalist islam in the north of england what can we do we've got no choice

01:08:17.780 and also we've got no time yes so we're it's been a great interview and one of the things we try to

01:08:23.380 do trigonometry is just bring in interesting controversial people and just have a conversation

01:08:27.100 i think that's great and i think that's fundamentally where you are irrespective of

01:08:30.500 what we agree or disagree on i think that's the great thing about like someone coming from the

01:08:34.540 soviet union yeah that's a great thing that most people in the world actually don't have

01:08:37.820 is the freedom to discuss these difficult controversial challenging ideas thank you

01:08:41.860 for coming on the question that we always like to ask at the end is is there one thing that you

01:08:45.660 think we're not talking about that we ought to be talking about oh god i think i've probably

01:08:50.420 covered it in the interview yeah i'll just finish on the gender pay gap uh that's the keep alive

01:08:58.960 it just won't die it's like the dead the deadest horse that keeps getting up somehow um i think it's

01:09:07.360 unfair to say it's not being talked about yeah i know but it's not being talked about in the right

01:09:11.260 way okay let me women should be paid less than men oh look your faces all right

01:09:17.920 and i'll tell you why yeah do you know why because they work less hours than men

01:09:23.880 they work less hours than men that's it they don't but not every woman on average yeah but

01:09:29.760 the gender is being controversial you know what he's saying but i'm absolutely right women because

01:09:34.100 the way the gender pay gap is calculated it just averages up all of the total earnings of each

01:09:38.480 men and women and obviously men are going to learn more because men spend more time in the office

01:09:41.920 it's crazy to think that women can work something like 15 fewer hours than men and end up with the

01:09:47.700 same paycheck as men that's ridiculous that can't happen that would that would have to be done by a

01:09:52.780 system of privilege for women by paying them more just because they're women we can't have a society

01:09:57.740 like that you know men and women should be paid per hour the same and then when men end up working

01:10:01.840 more hours that means they're going to earn more money that means the idea of the gender pay gap

01:10:05.700 it's it's a just thing to exist and you'll notice that like now younger women are out earning

01:10:11.040 younger men are we going to flip this we can say well now i as a man need to start getting paid

01:10:15.360 more because women are earning more money than me yeah good luck with that exactly it's never

01:10:18.860 going to happen and it's ridiculous so yeah the gender pay gap is a conversation that actually

01:10:22.720 needs to end well we've had a lot of people on we had joanna williams on who's the author of

01:10:27.560 women versus feminism talking about the gender pay gap uh we've had actually the pre i think one

01:10:33.320 of the episodes that will come out before this one is we had an evolution psychologist talking

01:10:37.380 about the fact that if you poll men and women and ask them how much you want to work women tend to

01:10:41.920 want to work less and so on i most people try to put it slightly more nuanced way than you have

01:10:47.200 but you but you're used to maybe the reason for your success is that you're you're keen to put

01:10:52.020 things in that kind of edgy way but the thing is there's there's no denying what i've said is true

01:10:55.980 you know there's if you put in there on average exactly but it is always calculated on average

01:11:00.920 you know that's the thing if they would say if they would calculate it by individuals

01:11:04.200 that the the pay gap shrinks to something like two percent it's very very minimal you know and

01:11:08.880 it's you you know we don't even know why that is there is an element of discrimination we've

01:11:13.120 spoken to women on the show who've experienced that there undoubtedly is and usually it's about

01:11:16.960 assertiveness when it comes to pay negotiations and things like that but it's not outright sexism

01:11:21.440 you know these that would be illegal and they would be able to sue their employers and and if

01:11:25.240 that was the case why wouldn't employers just hire women constantly it would just be cheaper for them

01:11:29.500 but um but yeah on average obviously women should not be paid the same as men because they just

01:11:33.500 don't work as many hours as men so yeah okay we're going to reframe it like this what carl is really

01:11:39.460 saying is that people all people of all genders races and backgrounds should be paid the same

01:11:44.840 per hour yes okay and we'll leave it there that's exactly what i'm saying but that is exactly what

01:11:50.020 you're saying you you just you just know how to make in the youtube audience sit up and get

01:11:54.500 annoyed well look it's been great having you on thank you so much for coming on it's been an

01:11:58.420 absolute pleasure um before we let you go if people want to see some of your stuff if they

01:12:02.960 want to read some of your stuff where do they go for that uh you can you can just google sargon

01:12:06.660 and i'll be the first thing that comes up that's a pretty ballsy claim to be able to make i look

01:12:11.660 forward i look forward to today yeah i know i know i know it's true but i'm just thinking like

01:12:16.140 that's a really nice way to be able to go just yeah if you want to find me just put constantin

01:12:20.040 in google i'm right at the top it's true it's a measure of your success is what i'm saying see

01:12:26.980 I'm getting banter wrong

01:12:27.960 all over again.

01:12:29.440 You'll learn, you'll learn.

01:12:30.100 You'll learn.

01:12:30.780 No, I won't.

01:12:31.760 It's been too long.

01:12:32.520 I've been in this country

01:12:33.360 for way too long.

01:12:34.220 Right.

01:12:34.500 I need to be deported.

01:12:36.460 Finally, someone's spoken the truth.

01:12:39.020 Right, okay.

01:12:40.220 So, thank you very much

01:12:42.020 for listening

01:12:43.160 and watching Trigonometry.

01:12:44.420 If you like it,

01:12:45.160 please give it a rating

01:12:45.980 on iTunes or SoundCloud

01:12:48.540 or follow us on YouTube.

01:12:51.080 Tell a friend

01:12:51.700 and leave us a nice review as well.

01:12:53.720 That would be awesome.

01:12:54.960 And if someone wants

01:12:56.080 to follow you, Constantine,

01:12:56.980 I'm at ConstantineKishin on Twitter.

01:12:58.880 I'm at FailingHuman, so follow me there or on Instagram

01:13:01.380 to see a picture of me looking sad in my pants.

01:13:03.500 And we'll see you next week.

01:13:04.800 Thank you very much.

01:13:05.640 Thanks very much.

TRIGGERnometry - July 23, 2018

Sargon of Akkad on Liberalism, Intersectionality & Immigration

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