TRIGGERnometry - Sargon：＂Will Coronavirus End the Culture War？＂

00:00:00.000 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foxtor.

00:00:08.040 I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:09.820 And this is the show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:15.420 Our brilliant guest this week is a returning guest to Trigonometry.

00:00:18.840 He's a YouTuber, Sargon of a Card. Carl Benjamin, welcome back.

00:00:23.120 Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it.

00:00:25.200 It's good to have you. How are you handling the... Are you self-isolating, I imagine?

00:00:29.640 Yeah, but I actually work from home.

00:00:32.260 My office is in my garage.

00:00:34.280 So honestly, my daily life is exactly the same.

00:00:38.240 I didn't realize I'd been self-isolating for the past like five years.

00:00:41.940 So there we go.

00:00:43.000 That's why you're happy.

00:00:44.420 Yeah, you've pioneered the whole movement.

00:00:47.300 Well, it's interesting times.

00:00:48.560 And one of the things I was thinking, obviously, you and us as well,

00:00:52.300 we've spent a lot of time over the last few years talking about the culture war.

00:00:57.640 You know, it seems to me that, you know, like when people are dying of coronavirus, when there's a shortage of ventilators, somehow what pronouns you use has become slightly less important.

00:01:09.520 Do you get that sense?

00:01:11.540 Well, it's inevitable, really, isn't it?

00:01:13.520 Concerns about things like racism and sexism and trigger warnings and pronouns are all very much, they're the kind of apex of first world problems, like very minor hurt feelings that can be blown out of proportion by people who have an interest in doing that sort of thing.

00:01:32.600 But as soon as suddenly it's like, well, you might not have food, you might get sick with a terrible illness and die, suddenly these things just naturally take a back seat.

00:01:41.220 I guess the woke brigade are desperately praying

00:01:43.980 that civilization doesn't collapse

00:01:45.580 so they can continue whining about the words we're using, frankly,

00:01:49.880 because otherwise they've got some problems, haven't they?

00:01:52.180 But even like we were talking about just now,

00:01:55.600 the fact that actually it seems to be receding,

00:01:58.240 we don't have these conversations as much,

00:02:00.460 we're still having one particular conversation,

00:02:03.180 and that is whether to call the coronavirus

00:02:05.520 the Wuhan virus or the China virus,

00:02:08.880 And is it, in fact, racist to do so?

00:02:11.500 Because a lot of people think it is.

00:02:13.380 Where do you stand on that?

00:02:15.600 I'm going to get a takeaway.

00:02:17.720 I can't tell you what kind of takeaway it is,

00:02:19.820 because that might be racist.

00:02:21.820 That's ridiculous.

00:02:22.940 No one thinks that it's tied to ethnicity.

00:02:25.160 What they're saying is that this is just the naming convention

00:02:28.320 of the area or group of people

00:02:30.220 upon which it first reaches public prominence

00:02:33.240 and sort of enters into the mainstream narrative, isn't it?

00:02:35.420 It's like Ebola is a river in Africa, isn't it?

00:02:38.140 i think it's a river in the congo yeah river in the congo yeah you've got middle eastern

00:02:42.180 respiratory syndrome and things like that it's no one complains then you know no one complains

00:02:46.520 spanish food because it's not a judgment but i i suppose that the um i suppose there's a bit

00:02:52.160 of resentment because perhaps in the case of like saying the chinese virus there is a judgment

00:02:56.180 because i mean i'm sure you guys have looked into these wet markets in china since all of this is

00:03:00.680 yeah they do seem a little unsanitary and

00:03:04.080 understatement of the century yeah i i just want to be racist i think i think there might be

00:03:13.320 something here that's valid a cultural practice that might be valid to criticize and and weird

00:03:18.780 thing is you notice how many of the same kind it's the reason that it's worth actually calling

00:03:23.920 it something other than just coronaviruses coronavirus is a category of viruses i didn't

00:03:27.520 know all of this before when coronavirus came out of the way but um but basically there are lots of

00:03:31.580 different kind of coronaviruses and a lot of them have come from china probably due to these

00:03:35.780 unsanitary conditions um like was it sars bird flu and there have been a bunch of others swine flu

00:03:42.180 yeah swine flu yeah the black death came from china as well probably under similar conditions

00:03:47.320 so i think there's probably a conversation to be had can i can i just stop you there i think we

00:03:52.860 should refer to in the modern it's 2020 we should refer to as the plague of color

00:03:57.900 well i think i think the technical term should be the wuhan flu or wuhan virus right

00:04:03.940 specific you know because like i said there are other chinese viruses but i can see why trump's

00:04:10.740 calling it the chinese virus and i can't believe that the chinese communist party allowed it to

00:04:15.040 provoke them i can't believe it's something they've tried firing back on like china's an awful state

00:04:20.600 like the state the the government of china are genuinely fascist like they've got you know a

00:04:25.620 million uyghurs and concentration camps they've got these social credit systems they're utterly

00:04:29.620 tyrannical they don't have free press they don't have free moves they they have a command economy

00:04:33.800 i mean it really does look like a fascist government if you just toss out all the things

00:04:38.620 they're doing and so i mean are we taking moral instruction from the chinese communist party i

00:04:44.340 don't think we are well i think this is why trump has started calling it the chinese coronavirus

00:04:49.780 virus because he sees it as a kind of warfare situation where the Chinese are trying to create

00:04:55.880 this idea that the U.S. Army came up with this thing. And also, the reality is that, as far as

00:05:02.280 we know, China is responsible, not only the web markets, but they've suppressed the information

00:05:06.560 that could have allowed other people to prepare better. And people are dying around Europe and

00:05:11.500 the rest of the world because of that. And actually, that's probably one of the things

00:05:16.020 that will change fundamentally,

00:05:17.560 and we'll talk more about other things that will change.

00:05:19.700 But our relationship with China

00:05:22.020 is going to be completely different

00:05:24.260 when this is over, isn't it?

00:05:26.380 Well, I would hope so.

00:05:28.040 I think a lot of people have been thinking

00:05:30.220 out of sight, out of mind when it comes to China.

00:05:33.000 But I mean, one of the consequences

00:05:35.600 of outsourcing our industrial capacity to China,

00:05:39.160 I mean, you know, it was appealing

00:05:40.600 because they could throw infinite amounts

00:05:42.420 of sweatshop labor at the things we wanted to make,

00:05:45.560 to buy so we could buy all of this stuff dirt cheap but i mean nothing's you know everything

00:05:51.580 comes with a price and the price that we've had to pay in this regard is that china now is the

00:05:56.700 second largest economy and it's headed by a communist party a one-party totalitarian dictatorship

00:06:02.280 where the the xi jinping has just given himself executive powers for life so it's it's one of

00:06:08.600 those like you know this was quite a high price to pay and i think that they're going to sacrifice a

00:06:14.240 lot of a lot of things that we might consider things that shouldn't be sacrificed before they

00:06:19.220 they change their ways um and so i think that um i think we've really got to rethink it i mean i

00:06:26.040 personally would prefer a more sort of i and i don't want to use the word populist uh populist

00:06:31.700 but i i can i can't think of a better way um essentially we we should have a kind of social

00:06:37.560 understanding that you don't buy from china i know that sounds strange but i mean we should

00:06:42.060 Those are pretty fucking hard right now, isn't it?

00:06:45.200 Well, yeah.

00:06:45.920 Well, that's the problem.

00:06:46.920 It is.

00:06:47.660 It's massively hard.

00:06:49.200 Yeah.

00:06:49.900 But I do think, like with the climate change stuff,

00:06:53.440 they can demand, like, you know, in Sweden,

00:06:56.020 they're demanding a climate dictatorship and things like this.

00:06:59.200 But at the end of the day,

00:06:59.860 I think that the general ethos will filter into the popular consciousness.

00:07:03.800 And I think people will say, well, I'd rather buy, you know,

00:07:06.340 I mean, you know, where I can, I buy, you know, free-range eggs, right?

00:07:09.700 I don't like battery farming.

00:07:11.160 So I do my part to buy free-range eggs

00:07:13.080 because I can afford it, admittedly.

00:07:14.900 But I think that the demand does create the change in the market.

00:07:22.400 I think that's something that we can do.

00:07:25.200 That's at least something that the individual can do

00:07:26.920 in their personal lives.

00:07:27.760 Say, right, do I need this cheap tat from China?

00:07:30.220 Probably not.

00:07:31.040 Could I buy a more expensive version made somewhere else?

00:07:33.820 Yes, I probably could.

00:07:34.740 Maybe I should do that.

00:07:36.160 Maybe we can actually make the world a better place

00:07:39.160 slightly by degree um but yeah i really would like to rethink the relationship with china because

00:07:44.020 it was foolish to allow them to essentially buy up all of the jobs that we thought we didn't want

00:07:49.700 to do because that's hollowed out the west anyway you know i think the main the main crisis that

00:07:53.700 brought brexit and trump i think was the loss of this kind of social ladder that was manufacturing

00:07:59.000 jobs and practical jobs because there's this arrogance about um academia i think and the

00:08:05.260 middle class where they think well the only way that you can be smart and successful is if you go

00:08:08.880 to university so we need to get everyone to go to university but some people just don't learn

00:08:12.900 academically some people learn through doing using their hands you know and they're not any less

00:08:17.860 smart than anyone else it's just a different way of viewing the world interacting with the world

00:08:22.220 you know it's it's more uh concrete less conceptual and it seems arrogant to say yeah no

00:08:29.680 fuck you guys you can just join us in the in the smarty pants area where you can get down and read

00:08:34.620 the books you know i mean i know lots of my family who are very much in the category that i'm talking

00:08:38.720 they are not academics it's just not what they're about you know but they are hard working and they

00:08:43.560 are smart and they can get things done and i think that we we could we could at least you know give a

00:08:49.320 bit of ear to these people a bit of consideration but uh but these are the gamins aren't they

00:08:53.980 so why would we you know they're the racists i swear to god one of the difficulties with

00:09:01.040 doing these uh videos remotely now instead of in studios we did it last time is that francis now

00:09:06.180 looks like the most gamony person ever you could not be any pinker if you fucking tried yeah yeah

00:09:14.520 i did actually look at my uh skin color on the dope dulox color chart and it is actually called

00:09:19.760 a lovely shade of gammon but there we are carl i wanted to talk to you in particular about trump

00:09:27.260 uh because initially he was criticized about his response to the virus uh the way that he was

00:09:34.160 dealing with it and you know and there are a lot of sound criticisms there but he seems to have

00:09:39.960 changed the debate to whether it's racist to call it the china virus and in fact somebody told me

00:09:45.920 the other day that one of his cabinet called it the kung flu is has trump rather re skillfully

00:09:53.220 really really skillfully reframed the debate from his own approach to it to actually this debate

00:10:00.000 which isn't important in any shape or form?

00:10:02.880 I think the debate that isn't important in any shape or form

00:10:06.680 is essentially a red herring to throw off the sort of woke karate

00:10:10.580 who are going to get their knickers in a twist about this.

00:10:12.980 Because if you look at what Trump's doing,

00:10:15.520 it seems to actually be pretty good, generally.

00:10:18.820 Even if, now you've got to remember that Trump is an entity, right?

00:10:23.400 He's a political entity and he has known qualities and defined boundaries.

00:10:28.040 And, you know, some of these known qualities are him being brash and boorish, and some of the boundaries are, you know, the limits of his ability to articulate. But he's also got other, he has virtues as well, as much as a lot of people don't want to admit it.

00:10:42.920 And one of the things I think him and Boris have done, which is actually really sensible, is the daily or almost daily briefings that they've been doing, just streamed on the internet, played on TV, because there is a concern that leadership, like the people at the top, need to show level-headedness, right?

00:11:05.540 And this is the leadership quality.

00:11:07.460 Now, Trump might say everything he does is the best,

00:11:10.420 and they have the best, and everyone thinks so at all times.

00:11:14.040 But it is also a kind of reassuring regularity.

00:11:17.920 It becomes the normal, right?

00:11:19.440 To have, you know, the president get up,

00:11:22.620 and even if you don't like him, he sits there and says,

00:11:24.760 well, look, you know, here's an expert here, here's an expert here.

00:11:27.380 These experts are going to say, this is what we're doing.

00:11:29.760 You know, we're doing our best.

00:11:30.900 This is a surprise. It's been strong enough.

00:11:32.480 Because you say, you know, Trump was criticized for not doing enough,

00:11:34.920 now too much. And it's like, yeah, he's going to be criticized. They are really pathological when

00:11:40.200 it comes to their criticisms of Trump. And so I'm just like, okay, what's he actually doing?

00:11:44.600 And they're currently trying to put this $2 billion package through so that Americans will

00:11:51.080 get money, tax rebates, and businesses will continue to exist. So once this has passed,

00:11:57.060 people will have jobs to go back to. It appears that it's actually the Democrats who are blocking

00:12:01.660 this and trump signed off on all of it uh it was his treasury that was demanding that there was

00:12:07.000 money being given to people and i mean like i'm reflecting you look at me well hang on this sounds

00:12:11.080 like something bernie sanders would do right this you know to give people money i mean i'm i'm i'm

00:12:15.840 a liberal i'm not a socialist and so i'm sat here thinking right okay i mean you know needs musters

00:12:20.660 the devil drives but i you know that strikes me as being uh a very like i think it's the sort of

00:12:27.660 precedent that could either go really well or really badly you know so i'm kind of hoping that

00:12:31.860 it goes really well and not really badly but you can see the position that they're in and for some

00:12:36.000 reason the democrats are blocking this so i mean i don't really know what trump is supposed to be

00:12:40.100 doing because he's not a dictator there's a lot of devolved power in the united states and by design

00:12:45.200 so i mean you know like cuomo shutting down new york it looks really reasonable given what new

00:12:51.000 york is you know a massive epicenter of people and commerce and traffic and stuff um but if you're in

00:12:56.920 the midwest sort of thing and for example like here i'm in the southwest of england shutting down

00:13:01.320 london totally makes sense uh but i mean social gatherings and pubs fine uh but there are still

00:13:07.900 loads of people on the streets here everything just seems to be fairly normal nobody's you know

00:13:11.460 we've had very very few incidents of this virus so everyone's kind of going about their day as if

00:13:17.060 it's a day off um but generally i don't think he's done a bad job so far i don't know what everyone's

00:13:22.500 expecting what what do we want him to do and one thing i'm wary of is this kind of continental style

00:13:28.460 lockdown i think the the the distinction between uh what we in the united states have done and

00:13:35.220 canada as well and in fact new zealand's only just locked down as well uh compared to the speed of it

00:13:40.000 on the continent i think the two i think it speaks to two different mindsets and the the english

00:13:44.840 speaking world tends to have a kind of you need to be responsible you know the government isn't

00:13:49.180 your daddy you need to be responsible and so you know we should be personally more responsible i

00:13:54.320 don't really want the the police to come out and check my papers for going down to the shops

00:13:59.280 but in return for that freedom i'm not going to be responsible and go down the shops especially

00:14:04.680 if i feel sick you know um so yeah i don't know what else they can do it's interesting i used to

00:14:09.880 obviously i grew up on a society where the police would check your papers but they wouldn't check

00:14:14.640 on your way to the shops because the shops were always fucking empty just like francis growing up

00:14:21.740 in for parts of his life in venezuela uh but um what do you what do you make about of what's

00:14:27.280 happening you mentioned the uk uh it's interesting that you talk about that steady reassurance

00:14:32.260 because my wife is completely apolitical uh she watched boris johnson address to the nation

00:14:37.920 yesterday and she said oh i thought he actually did really well uh whereas whenever david cameron

00:14:43.020 used to appear on tv she used to instantly have to halt suppress vomit she just thought that guy

00:14:48.440 is so fake so there's something about boris and particularly the way that he's handling this you

00:14:53.720 know he's lost all the you know he hasn't referenced a greek tragedy for weeks now

00:14:58.920 he's cut out the jokes you know what i mean like he's taken it seriously uh what do you make of

00:15:05.380 how we've handled this because you say you're a liberal and he is clearly someone who who tried

00:15:11.420 to have the most careful response to this

00:15:14.560 in the sense that he didn't want

00:15:15.920 to impose draconian sanctions on people.

00:15:18.040 Yeah, the hands-off approach.

00:15:19.660 Right, but I think we can all see

00:15:21.540 that that didn't work.

00:15:22.980 I mean, people were not responding

00:15:24.600 the way that you would want.

00:15:26.920 Well, I mean, I'm never excited

00:15:30.860 about the exercise of state power, really,

00:15:33.220 in any regard.

00:15:34.560 It's not something I'd like to see.

00:15:36.400 I like to see spontaneous action

00:15:38.520 by people living their lives.

00:15:40.300 but I mean it can be warranted in some circumstances obviously you know during

00:15:43.840 World War II it's completely warranted that effectively everyone had to be on

00:15:47.640 the same team and this seems to be a crisis of fair magnitude so I don't

00:15:52.140 think that what they're doing is necessarily unwarranted at all

00:15:55.700 I think I don't I don't think it's going to get too silly

00:15:59.320 either to be honest I don't think that the police are going to you know be like

00:16:02.860 right well you know that's it Boris has said inside so inside if there are some

00:16:06.160 kids playing out the grass or something you know I don't think it's going to be

00:16:08.780 like that and i i think that we'll weather the worst of it what else are we gonna do

00:16:13.080 die that's a possibility i i i think your point about them being level-headed is actually quite

00:16:20.680 good and the same goes for trump as well uh you know they're very eccentric people boris and trump

00:16:26.080 in their own right um but i i think that they have taken the right tone about it it looks like

00:16:31.320 they're concerned and like when they first started doing the press conferences they look exhausted

00:16:35.960 You know, they looked really tired.

00:16:38.040 So, you know, to me, as you know, I mean, I think they're doing a half decent job.

00:16:43.120 But to me, it just looked like they'd been working all night, you know, before they came and gave their announcements.

00:16:49.240 And I think in a way, that's reassuring.

00:16:51.500 I think people need to see that they are taking it seriously.

00:16:53.700 They're not being frivolous and flippant.

00:16:55.580 And, you know, we just have to pull together, I guess.

00:16:58.800 You know, it's the blitz spirit, as they say.

00:17:00.820 And Carl, there seems to be this interesting phenomena, particularly amongst the left, where they seem to be wanting to get ever more authoritarian.

00:17:10.200 And you see it with some of their commentary online. Do you agree with that? I can guess you don't by what you've said before. And more importantly, why do you think that is?

00:17:19.820 I think this is most evident in the proposed bill that Nancy Pelosi put up instead of agreeing to the bill drafted by the Republicans, which, like I said, the bill drafted by the Republicans is effectively a Democrat bill.

00:17:36.740 It looked very, very, very friendly to their positions.

00:17:40.080 But instead, the bill Pelosi promoted was loaded with wokeness, frankly, loaded with all of their pet projects.

00:17:50.160 So, you know, like further political grabs on health care, environment, diversity quotas and information, making it mandatory that every company and every government agency have to give over the diversity information.

00:18:03.740 It's like, well, there's only one reason why they're ever going to need that information.

00:18:06.740 And that's so they can say, well, that company's racist or that's sexist or whatever, you know, that's the only reason they'd ever ask for this.

00:18:12.680 And so this weird power grab is annoying, but I think it's because, honestly, I mean, if we were to boil down the left and the right to being sort of, I mean, the left seemed to have a particular desire for order and central planning.

00:18:30.300 and if we're going to say the right is the sort of libertarian types who you know the sort of

00:18:36.240 people who want constitutional government and that's the only way i can frame what far right

00:18:40.780 is because i think if they thought i was a nazi they'd just call me a nazi but instead they call

00:18:45.160 me far right and i'm like okay well i want constitutional order limited government or

00:18:49.460 personal independence so if if that's the the the opposite well then they're going to naturally

00:18:54.600 push towards more state control in order to create a more perfect system and i think that

00:18:59.920 the imperfections are kind of inevitable i don't think it's interesting isn't it because i think

00:19:04.480 the desire for order is actually probably something that just both the political extremes

00:19:09.440 want there are people on what you might actually accurately describe as the far right who also want

00:19:15.660 order mass deportations you know an authoritarian government as well so i think it's actually just

00:19:21.720 what it really reveals is that while being an actual far right person is completely unacceptable

00:19:27.820 in in civil society in the public square being a far left person is not only acceptable you're

00:19:35.600 actually welcomed you you get invited on question time etc well yeah i mean i i'm very dubious about

00:19:42.180 calling the fascists far right to be honest i've been thinking about this a lot and i just don't

00:19:46.880 see what the definition of far right we're using that could make them and say you know all of the

00:19:53.440 sort of like ancap types you know the the anti-state preppers who you know just want the

00:19:58.740 government to leave them alone how do they fit into the same box and i really don't think they

00:20:02.120 do um and i think that there's a i think honestly the far left has been deliberate about trying to

00:20:08.480 portray them as far right um because i think they're a lot closer to the left than they are

00:20:12.540 to the right frankly all of the fascists were communists first or socialists first and if you

00:20:17.880 It's a natural evolution of the socialist philosophy

00:20:22.200 because the socialists effectively,

00:20:25.200 Marx wants revolution of the proletariat.

00:20:28.900 They seize the means of production.

00:20:30.620 They create their temporary dictatorship

00:20:33.060 for the proletariat and the whatever glorious leader.

00:20:35.440 And they implement real socialism.

00:20:37.660 And that, for some reason, fades away over time

00:20:41.460 into a stateless, classless, propertyless, moneyless society.

00:20:44.680 um the the fascists like Mussolini and Giovanni Gentili just openly said well socialism is a

00:20:52.300 dead doctrine it doesn't work you know that's not going to happen however we could take over

00:20:58.020 everything and perfect the state entirely we're not going to get rid of the state we're going to

00:21:01.620 turn the state into essentially our model for god you know provides you know nothing against the

00:21:06.860 state nothing outside of the state um I can't remember the exact formulation of it but you

00:21:09.980 know what i'm talking about um the state becomes god effectively and so i don't think that you can

00:21:16.140 draw a straight line from liberalism to fascism but you'd have to go through socialism and

00:21:21.400 communism first i think that's why china's communist party just looks a lot like nazi

00:21:26.260 germany at this point i think that the the there are kind of a series of incentives and necessities

00:21:32.100 that you end up falling through whether you like it or not well i think sorry francis i just want

00:21:37.580 to finish on the point so but i think when we talk about the evolution i mean there is a uh

00:21:43.460 evolution from what you might describe as conservatism conservatism being the desire

00:21:48.800 for order for cleanliness for homogeneity etc right so when we talk about that being the right

00:21:56.540 i'm not talking about the ancap and whatever and the libertarian right but perhaps the conservative

00:22:01.180 right people who if you take that to its extreme branch you end up perhaps on what has conventionally

00:22:09.020 been described as the far right which is the kind of white nationalist nazi type way of thinking

00:22:14.880 yeah i mean as with all of these things the term left and right is not really very useful no no

00:22:22.700 this this is why i'm specifically naming ideologies and trying to essentially connect

00:22:28.240 a narrative of how they came about and what they led to and the reason they led to these things

00:22:33.620 um because then i think you have a more sensible structure of like where people sit in the sort of

00:22:39.640 tree of ideology um because essentially all of these things came out of the enlightenment and

00:22:44.060 then you've got like say catholic traditionalism sort of thing it's an entire separate branch you

00:22:48.820 know it's it's not an enlightenment uh ideal it comes from the bible it comes from theocracy it

00:22:53.860 comes from tradition and so it it's got a different set of values and they can end up looking very

00:22:59.400 similar you're absolutely right um but i just i just hate using terms left and right because

00:23:03.840 this doesn't mean anything like a fascist is so far away from the sort of like liberal libertarian

00:23:09.540 type even though you know they get lumped into the same box and i just i don't think it's very

00:23:15.600 useful but um but anyway i like i think i think fascism has been successfully discredited at this

00:23:22.360 point i don't i think the 20th century has done a number on it and i mean you would have thought

00:23:26.320 the same would have happened for communism too but uh essentially the next thing we have to do

00:23:31.200 is discredit communism and hopefully we can just hover around a kind of realistic liberalism and

00:23:36.640 just kind of a liberalism that's interested in dealing with the facts as they are because a lot

00:23:40.780 of the distinction here is like is an ought it's like this is the case yeah but it ought to be the

00:23:45.000 case that it's not it's like why you know it is what it is and we kind of have to accept that

00:23:50.040 Well, discrediting communism is very easy. Just let Ash Salkar keep coming back on question time. Anyway, sorry, Francis, carry on, man.

00:23:57.240 I've got a theory about that. Is that because Shea Guevara looks a lot better on a T-shirt than Adolf Hitler?

00:24:04.460 Well, he was cool. You know, you can't deny. And if you wanted to be the resistance to the imperialist Americans, then he was a good symbol of resistance.

00:24:19.340 I mean, a lot of people didn't like him.

00:24:21.500 He lived in Cuba.

00:24:22.260 He killed a lot of people with his own hand.

00:24:25.500 He had some interesting opinions on black people and things like that.

00:24:28.660 But if you are a middle-class kid who didn't like the Vietnam War,

00:24:32.840 well, he's your hero.

00:24:34.480 Absolutely.

00:24:35.380 And we're talking right now about civil liberties,

00:24:37.960 and actually the government has taken a lot of our civil liberties away.

00:24:43.160 And you could argue that.

00:24:44.620 Absolutely, there's a right to do it, and there's a reason to do it.

00:24:48.540 But there is also a precedent being set where sometimes the government takes away certain liberties and after the problem has passed, they're not so keen to give them back.

00:24:58.020 Do you think that what we're going to see after Corona has gone, we're going to see a real struggle to get certain liberties given back to us?

00:25:07.500 Well, that's the fear. I believe that there was a specific time frame.

00:25:13.180 yeah two years two years yeah yeah um so that hopefully will will be as honored as we expect

00:25:21.700 it to be because the last thing i want to have to do is fight a revolution against the tyrannical

00:25:25.560 government i mean i i'm just saying i don't want to i'm comfortable i'm fat i'm happy you know i

00:25:31.860 don't want to have to get barricades and shoot at soldiers i don't have to do that you know we

00:25:38.020 could do a rocky montage car exactly just working out mate getting all ripped with ads

00:25:43.820 me everyone's gonna have to do it if that's the case like it's not just me um but the uh the the

00:25:51.180 thing that is worrying though is i mean i don't want to downplay the danger of corona the coronavirus

00:25:57.900 but the the fatality rate is very low uh when like because i mean and every day it's getting

00:26:04.580 lower and lower and lower because the the number of people being tested and number of fatalities

00:26:08.980 uh is not necessarily congruent with the number of people who have the disease and the number of

00:26:14.160 fatalities so every day the number of fatalities actually becomes a smaller percentage of people

00:26:18.220 who are tested for it um and so it could be that this is actually a massive overreaction i'm like

00:26:23.840 i'm not saying there aren't problems there are obviously problems and obviously shutting things

00:26:28.080 down is a way of preventing it from reaching the the worst case scenario um but i i do think that

00:26:34.180 that will be a theory that is considered after this is all over. Did we overreact? Did we allow

00:26:41.080 the government to have powers that we actually don't want the government to have? And this was

00:26:45.420 something that was considered retrospectively with the Patriot Act. And still people are not

00:26:51.140 happy with the powers that the American government gave itself. I guess only time will tell, but I'm

00:26:57.480 really hoping that cooler heads will prevail and people who actually care about the integrity of

00:27:04.000 the system or you know in the future say okay well no this this actually you know this was a

00:27:08.600 mistake or you know whatever it turns out to be i'm not going to make a prediction but like

00:27:12.080 you know if if it turns out this wasn't necessary this should become understood you know we shouldn't

00:27:17.420 just jump just because media environment is panicking i mean watching piers morgan harp on

00:27:22.820 on twitter it's like piers shut up right you are a fat idiot you are not a doctor they are taking

00:27:28.940 advice from the best you know experts in this in the world and piers morgan's like do this do that

00:27:33.520 i don't care what you saw on twitter mate i just don't care like shut up and and that leads into a

00:27:40.100 question that i i particularly wanted to ask you in that do you think part of this hysteria comes

00:27:46.800 from the media the mainstream media hyping this up because you know this is a chance for them to

00:27:52.920 gain ground and you know reclaim some of their lost viewers and listeners and actually create

00:27:58.600 this state of hysteria um they they definitely have incentives to do it i mean one of the things

00:28:04.260 i don't do in my video titles is put all caps um because that to me feels like uh hysteria mongering

00:28:12.920 you know it feels like clickbait um you know so if i just put my my title as as a normal sentence

00:28:19.220 a normal title as i would i'd give an essay sort of thing then i feel that i'm not being hysterical

00:28:24.400 and clickbaiting i realize they're very subjective that's just the way i feel about it um

00:28:28.220 But you can't deny that there is an incentive to do that.

00:28:32.580 It probably does get more views, probably does get more clicks.

00:28:35.600 And in a media ecosystem where a bunch of them are dying and actively failing

00:28:40.780 and need that traffic to justify more investment to advertisers,

00:28:47.360 you can see why they would be jumping on this.

00:28:50.080 And yeah, I think it's entirely unhelpful.

00:28:51.540 I mean, Trump actually did dress down one reporter who was, you know,

00:28:55.900 He called him, you know, fear-mongering, and I agree.

00:28:58.820 I think that this is why Boris and Trump have been doing such a good job

00:29:02.480 of just acting calmly and saying, look, we're doing what we can,

00:29:05.840 you know, we're doing our best,

00:29:07.200 rather than running around screaming that the sky's falling

00:29:09.980 and that we're all going to die.

00:29:11.000 It's not very useful.

00:29:12.980 And I think the problem is, like, I think the reason that Boris and Trump

00:29:17.820 have been pushed to this degree as well is I think they really don't want to do this.

00:29:22.060 I don't think they want to shut down,

00:29:23.080 because i think they view their success as hinging on a good economy and obviously shutting down the

00:29:28.480 country means that's the end of the good economy um i don't think anyone's going to blame them for

00:29:32.580 that necessarily what choice did they have but i think it was pressure that builds up and it like

00:29:37.380 it does become a kind of echo chamber where they just hear everyone around going oh god we're all

00:29:41.600 going to die if we don't do x and so naturally you're going to feel compelled to have to do

00:29:45.880 something even if that might not be the wisest thing but um but that's just that's just human

00:29:51.400 decision-making for you? Well, the thing I would say on that is I think one of the things that

00:29:55.640 I've noticed is all the people that we've had on the show in the past, scientists and people like

00:29:59.880 that, they are all very much of the opinion that if we don't take some of the drastic actions that

00:30:05.620 we're taking now, we will end up in a situation where because of the peak, we get over the

00:30:11.460 capacity of the health system to be able to deal with it. And then you'll end up with a lot of

00:30:15.140 people dying who would not have died otherwise. And in fact, they may not even die of the

00:30:20.580 coronavirus they may die simply because they didn't have access to an intensive care bed

00:30:25.840 because that was taken up by somebody um it's like this thing now where there's actually half

00:30:31.520 of the icu beds uh in this country are taken up by people under 50 and most of them won't die from

00:30:38.100 it right but they're taking up the bed and there will come there will come a point if the infection

00:30:42.940 keeps spreading that all the people who are essentially well okay they're probably not

00:30:47.100 going to make it anyway they never get a chance to even have their life potentially saved simply

00:30:51.620 because all the beds are taken up so i do think that we do have to take it seriously particularly

00:30:57.720 as i say the people who know what they're and it's not like you're saying otherwise no no i know i

00:31:02.740 didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't take it seriously i obviously absolutely should um i'm

00:31:07.020 i there there is there is a historical precedent though of experts overestimating things this is

00:31:15.200 like this is one of the problem with the climate debate is that no we've got a prediction we're

00:31:19.340 all going to die in 12 years yeah but i'm actually old enough to remember all of the other predictions

00:31:23.960 that we were going to die in 12 years and we didn't you know al gore by this point would have

00:31:27.940 no ice caps it's like he was full of shit you know it's it's it's not it's not that they aren't

00:31:33.460 brilliant and it's not they aren't experts in the field obviously it's just the world is a massively

00:31:37.820 complex place and i'm not saying i'm the one who understands it either i i can just admit that you

00:31:43.640 know we have to look at the precedents well global warming is a totally different thing it's much

00:31:48.600 more complicated i think and actually you're absolutely right though mate because i remember

00:31:52.780 when i was at school i think by this point we're supposed to run out of oil 20 years ago run out

00:31:59.000 of coal pretty much now and then blah blah blah so no i take your point but i think epidemics

00:32:04.660 are slightly different um can i just interrupt and that's proof why you never trust a soviet

00:32:09.520 education system mate i actually went to school in britain mate for most of my education

00:32:16.820 yeah no he said soviet education so you've just slammed the british education system yourself

00:32:23.280 mate um like like a good self-hating brit anyway um moving on slightly uh carl what do you think

00:32:30.720 as we look at francis drink uh his i don't know why the screen is still on francis this is

00:32:35.660 completely i'm gonna change this i can't handle it this is censorship to fucking russian exactly

00:32:42.440 yes we must shut it down to the gulag with you for drinking from the wrong mug

00:32:46.520 but what what we started talking about the culture war and i want to come back to it because i wonder

00:32:52.460 what you think as someone who talks about this a lot and who sees a lot of this stuff and

00:32:56.480 it does a lot of analysis on it what do you think the impact will be like i i've been way

00:33:02.140 too naive on all this stuff like after the last election i was like okay finally the the idiots

00:33:07.740 are going to realize that no one actually likes them no one shares the stupid points of view

00:33:13.140 and actually we can have a proper political debate about the stuff that matters didn't really happen

00:33:17.980 do you think that as a result of this some of the woke stuff is going to fall away and we're all

00:33:24.600 we can actually talk about stuff other than you know idiots on university campuses shutting down

00:33:29.620 speakers because they don't believe in 50 genders um i mean i don't i don't know i don't i think

00:33:37.200 that it'll only be a temporary respite if we get it because it won't it won't change the

00:33:41.620 fundamental contention that they have a different definition of equality to everyone else and while

00:33:47.940 they pursue that definition of equality we'll never be able to come to a resolution because

00:33:52.640 they'll continually ask for things that aren't in our definition of equality like i would i would

00:33:58.240 say that most reasonable people would define equality as a quality of treatment equality

00:34:03.160 under the law so one rule for all right and that's that's it's very ancient actually that's

00:34:08.440 a very ancient idea in english culture um it hasn't always been applicable obviously or applied

00:34:13.740 but it's it's an ancient idea that you'd like you know really that's a form of equality let's say if

00:34:18.600 you know because we invent the idea of personal sovereignty it's okay well if every man is going

00:34:22.320 to be treated like a sovereign then every man has to be treated under the same rule right the law

00:34:26.180 has to be consistent among them all and so that's that's easy for us to then define what is and is

00:34:32.300 not equality because we we are concerned with procedural equality so if if uh you know yourself

00:34:38.980 or francis go up to i don't know whatever whatever i'm going to use for an example and you get

00:34:45.080 treated differently to me then you say well that wasn't equal because there's a demonstrable

00:34:48.760 inequality there and there's there's you know it's an arbitrary thing um but if we end up going

00:34:53.380 through the process and there is an inequality at the end for example it might be a test or something

00:34:58.520 you know yeah you might be way smarter than me and we get different grades but the test was it we

00:35:04.120 were on equal footing when we took the test then it was about factors that are beyond the control

00:35:08.700 of the the person involved but the the the way the woke left view equality is about it's conceptual

00:35:14.580 it's about outcome they don't care about the procedure they care that for example men earn

00:35:19.700 like 15% more money in aggregates than women do but then anytime you look at the procedure you

00:35:25.920 can't find any particular sexism there because the problem or you know quote-unquote problem

00:35:30.840 this isn't a problem but the the difference is made up primarily by the fact that women just

00:35:35.860 work fewer hours a week than men they don't do actually as much work as men do by choice and

00:35:41.480 it's there's nothing wrong with that you know um and so the the this this will until we kind of

00:35:48.100 square this circle until we resolve why they're asking for what they're asking for we will never

00:35:54.080 be able to effectively drive them off because we have to be able to nail down look no if you want

00:35:59.100 to use the word equality it must mean procedural equality not conceptual equality because honestly

00:36:05.420 i don't think they're really being honest about why there are inequalities at the end of our

00:36:09.660 procedures which i generally view to be fairly fair i mean i think they're they're as good as

00:36:15.040 they're going to get as far as i'm concerned sounds pretty racist to me anyway great

00:36:21.340 it just seems reasonable to me you know but carl there's a question that i really want and i want

00:36:30.740 to move it on sort of towards globalization unless constantine you wanted to no i want to talk a

00:36:36.300 little bit more about the culture war before we move i mean think globalization is one of definitely

00:36:40.200 one of the issues we'll talk about in a second but in terms of the culture war i guess i'm kind

00:36:45.440 of uh i've i've almost destroyed my own argument because i remember like two days ago there was an

00:36:50.720 article in vice talking about how um life-saving transgender reassignment search is now being

00:36:59.480 delayed because of stupid people who are dying of the coronavirus how transphobic exactly and i just

00:37:08.100 i don't understand whether whether they're i mean do people do you think people are going to stop

00:37:13.420 reading vice because of this stuff and eventually we will end up in a position where maybe just like

00:37:19.220 the demand for that kind of content is going to fall because people really realize how useless and

00:37:24.860 pointless it is well i mean if if people start encountering real world problems then yeah this

00:37:30.520 the demand for this is definitely going to go away because i mean all of this sort of um highly

00:37:35.220 introspective me me me view of the world you know my my gender identity my this my that it's all

00:37:41.660 very much contingent on the fact that they aren't about to starve to death or get overrun by bandits

00:37:45.880 or something like that you know and you know there are going to be no um there are going to be no uh

00:37:51.460 gender queers in foxholes when the when the barbarian hordes come they're gonna be like oh

00:37:55.920 the men can protect us oh what's a man oh no no that's a man suddenly we can define man and define

00:38:00.800 women and now it's the men's job to protect the women you know when when they they'll they'll

00:38:05.560 they'll collapse on that one very very quickly i think uh but yeah so until until there's a return

00:38:11.420 to normalcy i would think it'd be less effective as an argumentative tactic um but i mean like i

00:38:18.500 said it's not going to go away though it's not all right so all right what carl is saying is

00:38:22.920 we're in business for for a nice little while yet all right fantastic excellent stuff thank you

00:38:28.120 our sponsors are all watching and calming down i mean i want them to go away you know i mean

00:38:35.400 so do we man well this is the one of the ironies that of all the stuff that you do and that we do

00:38:41.120 is we would love not to have to do trigonometry yeah we would love to to talk about other stuff

00:38:48.060 and i think you're you're the same dude i'm exactly the same i started a second channel

00:38:53.180 just so I could just do it any way.

00:38:55.140 Like, you know, the video is about the way that society is changing

00:39:00.820 because of activism from the left.

00:39:02.220 I think it's very important.

00:39:03.620 I think it is important that people are aware that there are things.

00:39:06.240 I mean, even with the conservative government,

00:39:08.520 this is still all advancing through local authorities

00:39:10.880 because the people in the position of local power have been,

00:39:14.780 frankly, tend to be quite pro-intersectionality.

00:39:18.180 And I don't know why.

00:39:19.360 I don't know why that is, but they just seem to be.

00:39:21.720 there's very little it appears that conservatives can do which is annoying because i mean they are

00:39:26.240 the government and they probably should be like defunding some of this nonsense by this point

00:39:30.080 i mean like the the whole the whole thing is really annoying because a lot of it is predicated

00:39:35.020 on terms like patriarchy you know and it's like okay we'll define that it's like well the rule

00:39:39.320 of men it's okay we'll define what a man is well a man is a social construct it's like so what

00:39:43.380 you're saying you've got a circular argument here where the concept of man you know created itself

00:39:49.680 to create the patriarchy that creates itself so where's the origin point and that's obvious nonsense

00:39:55.940 that's an obvious it's a logical fallacy but if you if you ground the term man as coming from

00:40:01.240 the biological uh expression of a human being a male human being as an adult human male and woman

00:40:08.380 being adult human female oh shit i know so suddenly suddenly you don't find yourself in this uh in

00:40:17.020 circle of definitions you know self-referential definition and so now you can actually resolve

00:40:21.940 what you're saying you've got you know the the origin the the the method and then the conclusion

00:40:27.100 and you've reached you've reached a sensible statement unlike the way things are being done

00:40:32.000 now and yet this is still going on and you know these things are still being proliferated so i

00:40:36.760 do find it rather frustrating i would say and at some point it is all going to have to be undone

00:40:41.180 because frankly i mean you you can't base a theory on something that is self-referential like that

00:40:46.580 it's not going to work it's it's obviously not going to represent reality and that's the problem

00:40:50.500 so racist and transphobic excellent now moving on to globalization

00:40:55.240 so moving on to globalization carl because the standard uh thinking for well the vast majority

00:41:03.680 i would say liberals is the fact that we're an interconnected planet and that means that we can

00:41:08.440 trade freely we can move freely around the planet and this is only beneficial to us and to everybody

00:41:15.180 else. But will the coronavirus change that and the way that we perceive borders and nation states

00:41:23.360 and all the rest of it? Well, the coronavirus is something of a nationalist dream, actually,

00:41:29.860 isn't it? It's destroyed the myth of globalization and the one-sided view of it, the narrative that

00:41:37.740 it's only beneficial and there's nothing bad that comes from it. I mean, for example, Italy has

00:41:42.280 such a bad case of the coronavirus because they had loads of chinese workers working in factories

00:41:47.660 in milan uh i didn't know that until after this had happened but i looked into it and it turns

00:41:52.980 out it's true and so this this came from movement of workers from china and it's the same with iran

00:41:58.480 iran has a lot of movement with china as well i'm surprised that africa hasn't got major problems

00:42:02.880 too but i would imagine it's something to do with population density because africa's got very low

00:42:07.640 population density but anyway um yeah the the the the great dream of the schengen zone is over i

00:42:14.640 mean even germany has closed their borders if even germany has closed their borders then

00:42:18.700 there must be some truth to the statement that borders work walls work they you know preventing

00:42:24.120 people from crossing a thing will prevent those problems from coming with them that is true you

00:42:28.860 know it's and i think is i'm not saying that we have to do this but um but i think there is a case

00:42:34.620 for addressing the concept of immigration at this point.

00:42:39.100 There has been a lot of immigration.

00:42:40.640 I think a lot of it's been ideological

00:42:41.900 on the part of the governments,

00:42:43.860 you know, the reason for opening up.

00:42:46.000 I mean, yeah, Tony Blair is alleged to have said

00:42:47.840 he just did it to rub the right's face in diversity.

00:42:50.940 But okay, now we're looking at global pandemics

00:42:52.860 and the collapse of supply chains

00:42:54.440 and, you know, unable to get manufactured items.

00:42:57.280 It's like, okay, maybe we should have been

00:42:59.360 slightly more self-reliant.

00:43:01.200 There is still some value in the idea of self-reliance.

00:43:04.240 You know, there's no value in the idea of global trade and movement and stuff like that there is, but there are good parts and bad parts of both.

00:43:12.440 And I think that a sensible compromise between the two would be at least a step forward.

00:43:18.240 Absolutely. And it's a really important conversation, one which has obviously taken a backseat with everything that's happening now.

00:43:25.800 Because one of the things that I thought was very strange is that, you know, Boris is a liberal Tory.

00:43:31.480 So what really happened after the last election is he went, yeah, points-based immigration system, except under that new immigration system, actually, I think a lot of the people who've been calling for immigration to be reduced were very likely to be disappointed by the outcome because the way that system was calibrated, you probably were going to end up with the same or if not more immigration, right?

00:43:54.840 so yeah it's hard to know now though isn't it because you know he's like we're going to put a

00:43:59.160 points-based immigration system and then suddenly everyone's got to close their borders and no one

00:44:03.060 can travel right so did would it work we don't know yeah no i think i think this is the thing

00:44:09.420 is i think at least we now are at the point we're having a conversation where you know as you talk

00:44:14.800 about we need to compromise you're not saying shut the borders permanently and never let another

00:44:19.000 foreigner in and that's never been your position uh but what you are saying is we need to to look

00:44:24.220 at a sensible way of managing immigration and we need to check who comes in and it's one of the

00:44:28.940 funniest things to me actually about this whole thing was and as you know i know i'm not a ukip

00:44:33.140 fan or or even a farage fan particularly but one of the things that got him criticized the most

00:44:39.340 during the brexit referendum was him saying that we should check whether people have lethal diseases

00:44:45.880 before they come into the country do you remember that yeah yeah why why wouldn't we do that you

00:44:53.400 know that's the thing it's you know this is what i mean about like there is i mean it's just prudence

00:44:59.900 isn't it it's just common sense it's just sensible to be able to say look if we're going to have

00:45:04.860 people come in we have to have certain standards and you know to to make sure that obvious problems

00:45:11.300 that could occur like pandemics uh can be mitigated to the best of our ability it's just

00:45:16.840 seems sensible um but i think so can we can we talk about the gropers is that okay no we're

00:45:24.160 shutting you down turn it off see i told you about the communist education system

00:45:30.120 see i because i was of course we can talk about the gropers yeah yeah because because i was

00:45:36.660 watching this and like you know they're war with you you're a youtube channel what are you going

00:45:43.240 a war over morons you know um but anyway so these seem to be white nationalists right as far as i

00:45:50.460 can tell yeah and so and let's just define that as well so we know who these people are we know

00:45:56.180 where the telegram channels are they're they're people who send each other swastikas unironically

00:46:01.200 all this kind of they're neo-nazis let's call it yeah well yeah yeah i mean i've i've been i've

00:46:08.600 been talking to a few of them and it's weird that so many of them love hitler and hate churchill

00:46:14.140 i'm like and they're like yeah we're british nationalists i'm like okay um but yeah there's

00:46:20.900 a there's an awful amount of apologia for the nazi regime for british nationalists but okay so

00:46:25.620 i'll just call them white nationalists right yeah just get that i think that's the most neutral term

00:46:31.400 i can give them they are actual nationalists for white race you know white race um but the the

00:46:36.660 thing like demanding that you talk about their pet subject i found interesting because like well

00:46:42.060 you don't have to and trigonometry isn't the gatekeeper to the to you know to the to the

00:46:48.620 rest of the country and this you know if only trigonometry i wish we fucking were man that

00:46:54.500 would be a real level of insult or anything like it just seems like such a strange thing and then

00:46:59.900 like a bunch of them are like oh we're gonna do it to you and a bunch of them have posted 14 in

00:47:03.860 my chat when i was live streaming i'm like this is not rising up lads right you know this is like

00:47:09.420 when they were phoning up mike graham and saying mike what about demographic because

00:47:13.360 there is a fundamental truth about their argument but mass immigration is going to cause demographic

00:47:18.540 change in the united kingdom absolutely yeah no one can deny that it's 100 true the numbers are

00:47:24.320 in you know the next census in london especially and in birmingham they're going to be eye-opening

00:47:29.180 i think after more than 20 years of mass immigration i think the british people

00:47:32.720 like just generally i mean they've always been very skeptical about mass immigration they still

00:47:37.840 are so i think it's fair for them to assert themselves say well look we're just like less

00:47:41.980 you know we're gonna you know we're not gonna torture immigrants or something we're gonna

00:47:45.320 chuck them off the cliffs of dover but we're just you know when someone says can i move to britain

00:47:49.620 we'll just say sorry we're not allowing new people to move here at the moment i don't think that

00:47:53.740 anyone's rights are violated i don't think anyone gets hurt you know nothing happens i think that's

00:47:58.160 fair i think that's a reasonable thing to do and yet these guys are framing it like the white race

00:48:03.560 is gonna die and i'm like yeah even if you're like let's assume everyone agreed with you right

00:48:09.020 but you you if you want to you know move the needle on anything and i think it is reasonable

00:48:14.380 to reduce immigration i don't i'm not interested in kicking out every foreigner that's overstepped

00:48:18.940 foot in the country but it is mate i appreciate that but it's but it's a reasonable request and

00:48:26.500 framing it in such unreasonable terms you know we want to reduce immigration also hitler did

00:48:31.020 nothing wrong and the holocaust didn't happen but it should have done he's like hell man yeah you

00:48:35.980 know i mean i'm i'm someone who wants immigration reduced and i'm not a white nationalist and as

00:48:40.780 far as i'm concerned the groupers just seem to be a dead weight to the cause of reducing immigration

00:48:46.180 we're right they make reasonable people look really really bad because they are coming at

00:48:50.780 it from the completely the wrong angle and see the thing is that like all of us would agree that

00:48:55.640 immigration needs to be reduced but and i i am a fierce critic of blair's immigration policy and

00:49:02.060 one of the reasons is that i think letting so many people in such a period of time prevented

00:49:06.580 integration and then any backlash that happens as a consequence of that is going to be targeted

00:49:11.180 people like me who've actually done their utmost to integrate right not enough in my smart as far

00:49:16.680 as i'm concerned but anyway absolutely mate but so that's the thing but having people who are

00:49:22.460 genuine neo-nazis attach themselves to very reasonable concerns the ordinary people have

00:49:27.340 and then come into our channel and start demanding that we have conversations with their favorite

00:49:32.160 neo-nazi right it's really annoying isn't it it is uh but it's quite funny in in a way as well

00:49:39.420 because these people look so childish and i don't think they realize how pathetic they look

00:49:43.640 you know yeah i saw i saw alistair williams uh giving one of them a grilling the other day

00:49:48.600 just saying look at you know you you don't look like someone worth having a conversation with and

00:49:53.000 you know you know that that is in some ways true so it's it's one of those things where it's just

00:49:58.240 like i just i mean it you know if they wanted to do something useful phone up phone up james o'brien

00:50:04.140 on lbc guys seriously seriously is there anyone who deserves to have to be you know constantly

00:50:10.120 phoned up by neo-nazis all day every day more than james o'brien i want him i want to listen

00:50:17.100 To James O'Brien, not talking to a rando member of the public

00:50:20.040 who's not a lunatic.

00:50:21.160 I want James O'Brien to literally have to go through

00:50:23.360 these Nazis' arguments day after day after day,

00:50:26.160 step by step by step,

00:50:27.320 so that every call is a Nazi that he's got to be exhausted by.

00:50:31.200 I just want to watch that.

00:50:32.700 That sounds like primetime entertainment.

00:50:34.380 That would be quite funny.

00:50:35.760 There is a solution to this, which is...

00:50:38.420 A final solution.

00:50:39.560 Yeah, exactly.

00:50:41.200 There's my dad who married a brown woman

00:50:44.160 and produced a child who's full-on gammon.

00:50:46.180 So he can basically, let's get him to procreate with all ethnic minority people.

00:50:53.420 And we're just going to have people look like me, mate.

00:50:55.440 I have never heard a man advocating for his dad to shag around.

00:50:59.560 Fucking hell, mate.

00:51:00.980 But actually, one of the things that I find quite interesting, Carl, is that the tactics of these people, they are exactly what Antifa do.

00:51:08.840 It's quite incredible.

00:51:09.700 And they're claiming, just like Antifa claimed, that they're exercising their free speech when they shut down conversations.

00:51:15.580 this is exactly what these people do they flood a chat room so no one else can talk and they claim

00:51:20.960 that this is about free speech well it's a tactic and it's it's only because it seems to be effective

00:51:26.600 in the you know in the local like areas and in that chat room um but it's it's because they want

00:51:32.880 attention and the thing is like it's not unfair it's not unfair to worry about the i mean like

00:51:38.160 when john please said london isn't an english city i'm not from london and i agree with him

00:51:42.440 you know if you remember i defended him at the time right so it's not like you absolutely yeah

00:51:46.760 yeah well yeah no that's exactly it that's this that's why i'm baffled why they think oh yeah

00:51:51.320 trigonometry is the problem right i mean like there are loads of leftists in the guardian who

00:51:55.820 are screaming closing the borders is racist and i don't care if we'll die from the coronavirus

00:51:59.820 and yet you guys are somehow the problem it's like mad you know like like i said guys call

00:52:05.660 james o'brien but don't you think it it's a little bit of it is it's about ego it's about

00:52:11.820 celebration of the self it's looking at results and if you target a channel like us and we're not

00:52:17.920 you know we're growing but we're not a massive channel we've only got 92k subs you can see a

00:52:22.740 real impact that your actions do whilst if you target james o'brien at lbc the reality is it's

00:52:29.440 so massive it's going to make no dent on them whatsoever well i mean there are there are there

00:52:34.120 are methods that you could uh you could make an impact um and it would require you know like say

00:52:40.060 like 100 people every day and since everyone's at home now they can do this you know just just

00:52:44.560 literally just jam the phone lines with groyper callers every day and that that would have an

00:52:48.560 effect but like but james o'brien you know he's got surely millions of listeners lbc is a mainstream

00:52:53.820 station all the politicians go on it you know and i'm not saying you're not mainstream or successful

00:52:58.100 or anything no we're not but we're not mainstream and also the other thing is we're not a debate

00:53:01.460 show like we've had you on the show we don't debate you we talk to you we interview you we

00:53:05.980 ask you some questions like we've never had anyone on the show where we were like we completely

00:53:11.040 disagreed with this person about everything yeah you know but it's like that's i i do agree with

00:53:17.380 you what you're saying is you know they they i think you know they they are they they think

00:53:22.720 they've got a vulnerable target that they can attack and they think that they can do some

00:53:27.340 damage to this target and you know it might they might do some damage as well um but at the end of

00:53:32.760 they've achieved nothing you know they've gone no further to their goal all they've done is made

00:53:37.640 life difficult for you guys but they actually haven't let's be honest about it the thing is

00:53:42.020 when they give us lots of comments i actually boost our engagement level so it actually helps

00:53:46.700 us so uh all our kind of income from our patreon subscribe star and also you know people see them

00:53:52.540 treating us unfairly and they want to support us so we our donations have showed up and everything

00:53:57.320 else uh but it just it's just it just seems like uh uh what my concern with that is that

00:54:04.040 these people are very easy to associate with people who are more in line with your way of

00:54:10.560 thinking and then people like you get tarnished by association with people with who you completely

00:54:15.940 despise and have nothing in common with yeah it's it's rather annoying being called old right after

00:54:20.700 i spent like a year of my life actively driving them out of my spaces right one of the most one

00:54:25.340 of the most annoying things is when YouTube and Facebook decided to de-platform people who are

00:54:30.820 alt-right, you know, like content creators who own the idea and own the phrase and own the movement

00:54:35.220 because that's, you know, they could congregate there. So their comment sections would be filled

00:54:41.580 with alt-right comments and you know what I'm talking about. And as soon as these people are

00:54:45.620 de-platformed, well, they still want to talk about the same subjects. Now they're coming to like your

00:54:50.580 chat my chat things like this my my comment sections and i'm just like god damn it youtube

00:54:55.760 you know i don't want these people wasting my time with these you know these things that they

00:55:00.540 then they're not they're not sensible in my opinion but um but yeah basically i just think

00:55:05.780 the groupers should stop being cowards and go off and do something useful for once but i don't think

00:55:11.240 they will so no and where do you stand on the issue of censorship with these particular people

00:55:18.020 so a lot of them have their like you said have their youtube channel taken down do you think

00:55:22.940 that youtube should be a sort of truly free speech platform where you're allowed to say anything no

00:55:28.320 matter how awful or vile or do you think there should be limits within that well i mean naturally

00:55:33.360 there should be limits like you know threats incitement things like that you know and and

00:55:37.900 open harassment you know i can see why that would be something that would be uh something youtube

00:55:43.240 would want to forbid i mean let's be fair youtube is way beyond that oh yeah it is really bad and

00:55:49.420 they're just taking you know they took a few months ago they just took down a spate of channels and

00:55:54.060 these channels you know hadn't done anything to violate the guidelines they weren't in violation

00:55:58.780 of any of the policies it was just one day take them down i mean i got my channel my account daily

00:56:03.660 channel demonetized out of the blue and youtube told me that was for harassment okay who did i

00:56:09.340 harass you they couldn't they none of i didn't get a strike none of my videos got strikes so

00:56:14.180 normally like you you get a strike on a video so they take that video down you get a strike for

00:56:18.140 you know whatever community guideline they felt you'd breached but i didn't get any strikes i i've

00:56:22.740 i've done nothing they can't i emailed them and i got some responses and they couldn't tell me what

00:56:27.560 video that they were criticizing what i'd even said and yet they were doing it anyway and so

00:56:31.620 it really feels like essentially they're looking at uh the approaching november election in america

00:56:38.140 and, you know, clearing the field, I think.

00:56:42.300 But, yeah, it's quite annoying how they're getting so –

00:56:47.140 the noose is getting quite tight.

00:56:48.660 It is, man.

00:56:49.340 I do think that YouTube really should relax this somewhat.

00:56:53.520 I really think so.

00:56:55.340 But it's – sorry, Constantine.

00:56:57.540 No, I was just going to say that we talked about this

00:57:00.120 when we had some of our video demonetized and you had me on your show,

00:57:04.480 that actually one of the things that happens is you end up

00:57:07.700 in a position where they demonetize you but they still run ads on your fucking videos yeah yeah

00:57:15.680 that's i i in fact there was a comment this morning i woke up this morning i was just you know

00:57:19.300 checking to see if my channel's still there which is my day now you know i get up have they deleted

00:57:23.640 my channel yet one of the first comments i saw was someone said there were eight mid-roll adverts on

00:57:30.520 this video and i'm like jesus you know i mean you know putting one is enough but eight apparently

00:57:37.020 and i don't see a penny of that so it's like christ it's all taking advantage you know what

00:57:41.960 i mean it's really felt you know it's quite frustrating i don't i really wish youtube

00:57:46.820 wouldn't be so i mean i don't want to say abusive but it is a kind of form of abuse to continually

00:57:51.840 treat people like this they treat their own content creators like with the enemy because

00:57:55.440 we're not silicon valley progressives it's like dude bad luck but most people are not silicon

00:58:00.440 valley progressives you know that doesn't make them bad or bigoted that just means they're not

00:58:04.380 radical leftists from california and isn't the problem as well is that they've effectively got

00:58:08.780 a monopoly this is really if you want to do this type of content this is the only platform you can

00:58:13.580 do it on yeah yeah uh saying that right um alex jones dare i bring him up has a site called band

00:58:20.160 dot video which gets surprisingly good numbers in the hundreds of thousands on a lot of their videos

00:58:25.580 so i think that um essentially all of this essentially and there are there are lots it's

00:58:30.240 not just alex jones on it but he created the platforms he had the resources there there are

00:58:34.680 lots of people who have otherwise been censored on there um and you know it's not it's not like

00:58:41.080 you know far right or like you know neonati or anything like that it's libertarian that's what

00:58:45.980 you know that's the sort of way it is and so you get like um you know the uh what's her name caitlin

00:58:50.740 bennett's the gun girl who goes around the campuses interviewing uh students and things like that

00:58:55.820 it's people like that you know people who will be who will willfully misgender for example and

00:59:01.800 that's considered a high crime now you know whereas you know to a sort of libertarian

00:59:06.040 conservative they don't think about that at all it doesn't even register on their moral compass

00:59:10.840 you know and i think it is a bit unfair to have sprung these kind of uh new standards on them

00:59:16.320 because it is very ideological you know if if you are a biological essentialist shall we say

00:59:21.240 then you are completely and ideologically locked out from entire spheres of engagement like on

00:59:27.680 twitter i mean i know some like zuby for example our friend zuby yeah yeah yes exactly yeah okay

00:59:34.280 dude spend it like day suspension it's like come on that's ridiculous i mean you know it just

00:59:41.820 it goes on and it will continue going on and you know but it does look like there might be options

00:59:48.160 there might be well there's a there's a problem with some of these platforms in that you know if

00:59:54.400 they suspend and then they these people go into other platforms and what you're creating is an

00:59:58.240 entire subculture and then what happens is these people end up radicalizing themselves yeah that's

01:00:05.380 that's absolutely true and i mean francis is quoting my last telegraph piece by the way thanks

01:00:10.180 man i appreciate it well it's completely true like they they it seems to be forgotten that

01:00:16.320 the way to de-radicalize someone is exposure to something they you know if if you want if you want

01:00:23.880 the the alt-right to hate brown people less then they you know they you you would want them to

01:00:30.980 speak to these people and understand that they're human too you know they have their own concerns

01:00:35.080 and cares and and they're not insensitive to the necessary to the concerns of the you know either

01:00:41.080 side and there doesn't have to be this giant chasm but if you if you just persecute someone

01:00:45.740 and say right you know we're watching you and then we're going to platform you and we're going

01:00:49.340 to stigmatize you then that's in no way deconverting anyone that's no one no one was no one was like

01:00:55.040 well i was a nazi until i got de-platformed then i was like you know what that's right the jews

01:00:59.200 don't control the media that's not how they think they just go well there we go you know look at

01:01:04.500 this guy look this guy with the jewish surname wrote an article about me and then i got the

01:01:08.040 platform there we go it's the jews you know it's confirmation it confirms everything that they

01:01:12.160 any belief and drive some deeper into their beliefs it's the worst thing to do what you

01:01:16.340 should have i mean like on question time the other day there was a lady who wanted to stop

01:01:20.640 mass immigration she just looked like a regular working class lady to me and everyone freaked

01:01:24.400 out going oh god this is far right propaganda it's like dude this is the majority of the opinion

01:01:28.460 opinion of the country you know if she's too controversial then i don't know what we're going

01:01:33.780 to do you know you've narrowed the range of debate to a very very narrow um position and yet it was

01:01:38.720 like Baroness Walsy and a Labour MP who were petitioning the BBC to make sure that they

01:01:43.620 couldn't have those sort of opinions on again. It's like, look, I think the BBC has a duty.

01:01:47.860 If we all have to pay for it, we have a duty to put those people on. And if they're wrong,

01:01:52.420 we'll talk about it. We'll have it out. I think with that woman, the issue probably

01:01:57.080 might have been, I mean, in a lot of these issues, there's a level of classism involved

01:02:03.660 as well. Like I think if she was a middle class person, then she'd phrased it differently.

01:02:07.280 i mean i don't think by the way that the majority of the people in this country would subscribe to

01:02:11.960 what that woman said which was we must end all immigration yeah that's too extreme but yeah you

01:02:18.120 know in polling somewhere between 50 and 70 percent of people agree there's been too much

01:02:22.040 immigration yeah all right but but that's my point like i think she it's the way she phrased it and

01:02:26.300 maybe also an element of the extremist part of the sentiment uh i'm not saying she's an extremist

01:02:31.800 i'm saying that way of thinking is towards the extreme right i don't think it's a it's a hard

01:02:37.100 position she's yeah right because i mean but if she was a middle class person i think she'd get

01:02:41.760 a different response to my point yeah yeah yeah they would they wouldn't nearly be so scornful

01:02:46.480 of her and yeah you know dismissive and i'm again as if as if this is not a legitimate opinion it is

01:02:52.940 a legitimate opinion you know it's it's one of the things that well really did drive the brexit

01:02:57.360 referendum is you look at the lord ashcroft polls um immigration is a problem we've had it for such

01:03:03.680 a long time and there are genuinely like the like the reason i brought the groupers because they

01:03:08.640 always go demographics demographics demographics well it's true you know it is true the numbers

01:03:12.840 are in um on the on the birmingham council website i found the other day that only um one third of

01:03:19.440 birmingham school children are english the rest come from uh foreign extractions like well that's

01:03:24.900 something that does have to be talked about you know it's it's irresponsible to think that can

01:03:29.860 just be stamped down you know because the the real people on the ground the regular person

01:03:34.520 they can see the change happening around yeah of course you know but this is this is the point

01:03:40.360 with this group of francis before before you ask your question and our final question the point

01:03:44.880 with them is that where do we go from here right the reality is that as i was saying massive

01:03:50.800 opposition from me to to the blair immigration project but the people are here now right and

01:03:56.820 the only way you can have a multi-ethnic society is for us to have a common identity, which is

01:04:01.500 fortunately one that we have. We can say that I can say that I'm British and Francis can say that

01:04:06.860 he's British and you can say they're British. And what we actually mean by that is we have a common

01:04:12.080 set of values and identities based around those shared values. The problem that we've had over

01:04:17.960 the last 20 years is the far left has deliberately attempted to destroy that identity and to say

01:04:24.400 there's no such thing as british identity there's no such thing as british values and what that

01:04:28.420 leaves us well if there's no identity then we all retreat into our ethnicity yeah that's that's a

01:04:34.800 really great way of framing it and they've been very clever about it as well because normally

01:04:38.020 when when called to account for one's own value system and culture um you don't have to right

01:04:46.720 on a day-to-day basis it's a lot of a lot of it is kind of like you know it when you see it right

01:04:52.140 Like, you know, regardless of where Francis says his parents are from,

01:04:55.920 I hear a Londoner, right?

01:04:57.100 Right.

01:04:57.880 I hear a Brit, you know, there's no question of it.

01:05:00.860 So it's, you know, a lot of the time, but if I turn around and say,

01:05:04.520 Francis, what's a British person?

01:05:05.740 Oh, God, I don't know.

01:05:06.680 You know, I mean, like, you know, and then you get like John Major's answer,

01:05:10.040 which is cricket on a green on a summer day, you know.

01:05:13.640 But what he's saying is that's something that was uniquely British,

01:05:17.080 you know, that only really happens in Britain.

01:05:19.140 You know, you don't get the same atmosphere in, say, Pakistan when they're playing cricket.

01:05:23.200 It's a different thing, you know.

01:05:24.720 And so, essentially, the postmodernists have been very, very aggressive on this point.

01:05:30.520 They're very clever about it because it requires you to sort of find the maxims upon which the thing is founded.

01:05:36.320 And I think that if someone would say, okay, what does it mean to be British then?

01:05:40.380 I think that the most important thing we could say is that the highest value is fairness.

01:05:45.100 You know, the most important thing, the British value is fairness.

01:05:47.540 Above all things.

01:05:48.660 you know like it really doesn't matter what else it is i think it's always filtered through a

01:05:54.220 prism of fairness and there's there are a lot of aspects to this as well i won't go into now but

01:05:58.580 like it is this sort of shared value but it's also the characteristics of the thing right as in

01:06:05.960 you know we we we talk about the weather you know we dress in suits we wear you know we have a union

01:06:12.140 jack we have red telephone boxes and buses you know and and so when if you look at like the

01:06:18.440 Falkland Islands my dad served in Falkland Islands too in the RAF you see a picture of it and and

01:06:24.300 Gibraltar as well right Gibraltar looks like Britain with palm trees that's it you know it's

01:06:29.720 and the Falkland Islands look like Britain with walruses on the beaches you know but you know it's

01:06:35.840 the same sort of sign format the same style of building the same you know the the same atmosphere

01:06:42.000 that the you know the cultural signifies of just the country and and I imagine the behavior of the

01:06:47.100 people is also similar this is the point very yeah right but that's really the point is if

01:06:52.360 people behave in similar ways that's what culture is it's not about your skin color right that's

01:06:56.600 the point yeah culture is the thing that people do you know the expression of it yeah but what

01:07:02.120 the left to me have done in particularly that aspect of the left is they've criticized the

01:07:09.080 sort of the british state and part of the thing they say is you know it's built on the blood of

01:07:14.360 slavery it's it's a shame and it's a disgrace and you know and it's all the rest of it um and then

01:07:20.540 to therefore identify as british means that you therefore are sort of born in almost into like

01:07:26.180 an original sin you're born into the shame and to the evils of your forebears regardless of what

01:07:33.860 they did describe to that i mean i i personally don't ascribe to that myself i think that people

01:07:41.800 should be judged on their individual merits but there is there is a way of looking at it where

01:07:47.340 they're not necessarily wrong i mean if you if you want to have a continuity of identity and feel

01:07:53.000 that you have something in common as a descendant of people who lived in the past um i mean and you

01:07:58.480 are it's clear there is a continuity so you if you if you grow up with cultural values that are

01:08:04.500 british well these are cultural values that have been inherited and developed and you know maybe

01:08:09.180 improved or degraded um but it's it is a continuity a consequence of what came before

01:08:15.500 um but anyone who wants to stigmatize something as being all bad and no in no way good um that's

01:08:22.700 a person who i think is trying to get one over on you to be honest because we know it's that's not

01:08:27.820 true i mean the the british empire one of the i was listening to a churchill speech the other day

01:08:33.260 and he was speaking against nazi germany saying look nazi germany stands against everything the

01:08:38.520 british empire stands for and by the definition they've given you i mean what the hell would the

01:08:42.860 british empire stand for you know slavery and you know imperialism but that wasn't how they thought

01:08:48.440 of themselves you know they they thought of themselves as actually in many ways liberating

01:08:53.400 the world from things that are terrible and in many ways they did i mean it was the british

01:08:58.360 empire that ended the slave trade and ended slavery around the world it wasn't the germans

01:09:02.320 it wasn't you know the chinese or anyone else you know we we actively spent our blood and treasure

01:09:07.460 on a moral mission that was against our economic interest

01:09:10.500 because it was the right thing to do.

01:09:12.820 And that's not to say that Britain didn't do anything wrong.

01:09:16.240 Obviously we did, you know.

01:09:17.940 But everyone, everyone is, you know.

01:09:21.340 So the way I look at this is morality is a technology, right?

01:09:24.800 Morality is not something that came fully formed from the ether

01:09:27.460 that we just chose to ignore, right?

01:09:30.180 And so the invention of slavery was actually a moral innovation

01:09:33.680 because prior to that it was just murder.

01:09:35.140 and so instead of the this you know the the conquerors were like oh we can make them farm

01:09:40.100 our crops or whatever not not optimal obviously terrible situation but it's probably better than

01:09:45.780 having a head calf right and you know and you get this kind of long development of morality

01:09:51.360 and the only reason that we would want to i mean it was for moral reasons that britain ended the

01:09:58.200 slave trade because the the british have never really tolerated slavery they never had it in

01:10:03.620 Britain, really. It was William the Conqueror outlawed the slave trade, not for any altruistic

01:10:08.160 reasons, but just because he thought he could make more money. He thought that if he could catch

01:10:11.740 slavers, then he could just take their money. And that was it, you know, so it was a source of

01:10:16.220 revenue. But that ingrains in the society that slavery is just a normal thing. And then, you

01:10:21.420 know, it was England that essentially created the kind of, the sort of liberal spirit of freedom,

01:10:27.940 the idea of personal freedom that we have and so it was natural that it was going to be england

01:10:33.800 that said no we're not having the slave trade actually this is actually because i mean like

01:10:38.400 there was um there was a petition that was something like 30 000 signatures a mile long

01:10:44.820 that the women of england stitched together so had got signed stitched together and delivered

01:10:49.000 to parliament and you can view it on the parliamentary website you know and it's it's

01:10:53.300 you know this is a lot of work you know and that's a lot of feeling and depth of feeling behind it

01:10:57.780 And so when someone says, oh, the British Empire is nothing but evil, well, I disagree. And contemporaneously, who would you have preferred to be in charge of the world?

01:11:06.960 Well, this is the thing. This is the thing that people always forget. And I'll say this before we ask you our last question, is that everything exists in comparison, right? So if you're saying that the British Empire was this evil slave-owning empire, then there's an element of truth to that because that's what it was. It invaded other countries. It took people as slaves, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:11:27.800 But what we see around the world today is that there are places in the world where there's more slavery than we've ever had.

01:11:35.520 And are we saying that those people, had they been in our place, had they won that battle of civilizations, they wouldn't have had slaves?

01:11:42.940 Of course they would, and they did, right?

01:11:45.080 So it's all about, yes, okay, we've got to reflect on our past and learn from it, but do we need to continually beat ourselves up about it?

01:11:52.240 I really don't think so.

01:11:53.380 In regards to slavery, we did learn.

01:11:56.100 but that's my point we did right so that's so so it would be it would be ridiculous to reject you

01:12:02.800 know the the positive identity of being british on the back of slavery because it's like no this

01:12:07.860 is one of our greatest moral contributions to humanity like slavery is a scourge that plagued

01:12:13.080 every society from the dawn of recorded history and the british were like actually that's enough

01:12:18.940 and and we're supposed to i mean like you know for any anyone who would impugn us on this like

01:12:25.200 we've done a lot wrong but that's not one of those things you know that's something that we

01:12:29.260 can be proud of and i think we should be proud of and you're right you're absolutely right like

01:12:32.880 for example the islamic empires didn't end slavery no the chinese didn't end slavery

01:12:37.780 you know the aztecs and all these other you know but it came from a particular kind of

01:12:42.000 philosophy that was developed in england and was fortunate enough to be at the helm of world power

01:12:48.200 when it came to the time where it could be ended and we did so we should we should we should be

01:12:54.440 able to hold on to that like a rock in the face of these kind of attacks say no actually very few

01:13:00.920 other countries were interested in doing what britain did and we did it even though cost i mean

01:13:05.120 we we only finished paying off the debts that we incurred by ending the slave trade in 2014

01:13:11.220 right we i holy shit i'm not joking i want my money back my russian ancestors had nothing to

01:13:18.820 do with this shit my surname is benjamin right not because i am of any jewish descent but because

01:13:24.360 on my father's side my grandfather came from st helena st helena was a slave island off the coast

01:13:30.220 like near africa and it was in 1792 that the slave trade was prohibited there i don't know

01:13:35.740 why it was earlier than everywhere else actually but for some reason it was but the the the reason

01:13:40.720 i say this is because at some point in my father's lineage he you know what my my ancestors will have

01:13:47.860 been slaves and i know this because what happens upon manumission is that you take the surname of

01:13:53.840 the slave the first name of the you know the slave owner as the surname of the manumitted slave

01:13:59.800 so at some point in my father's lineage at you know hundreds of years ago uh someone called

01:14:05.800 benjamin something will have had slaves and my family would have been part of the slaves

01:14:09.620 and yet i have finished paying for the slave trade it's my money that goes through as my

01:14:14.300 reparations you know what i mean but but the the this is the thing isn't it you know it's

01:14:18.520 like it's it gets silly you can't fix history all right you're an honorary jew and hence

01:14:23.520 a welcome target for the Gropers.

01:14:25.460 Here they come.

01:14:26.600 You know what I love is some of these,

01:14:28.920 in particular, lefty sort of liberal comedians

01:14:31.780 who say things like, you know,

01:14:33.460 Britain is built on the blood of slavery

01:14:35.740 and they all go into it.

01:14:37.240 And then you see them next week go,

01:14:38.620 anyway, guys, really looking forward

01:14:39.840 to my gigs in Dubai.

01:14:41.040 See you later.

01:14:41.940 Yeah, right.

01:14:43.700 For anyone who doesn't know,

01:14:44.860 Dubai is like an 80% indentured servitude

01:14:47.700 or something like that.

01:14:48.960 It's wild.

01:14:50.400 All right, Francis.

01:14:52.060 We're running out of time.

01:14:53.260 We've done an hour and 15 minutes.

01:14:54.640 Carl, thank you so much for coming back.

01:14:56.000 It's always a pleasure to speak with you.

01:14:58.100 We're going to hit you with our last question.

01:14:59.800 And the last question is,

01:15:00.920 what's the one thing that we're not talking about

01:15:02.600 as a society that we really need to be?

01:15:04.960 The 2021 census.

01:15:06.960 That's the thing.

01:15:08.840 This is really going to be the eye-opener

01:15:11.000 because all of the data on population demographics we have

01:15:14.340 comes from the 2011 one,

01:15:16.460 apart from some local ones,

01:15:18.400 which is why you like the Birmingham school children, for example.

01:15:20.580 But I don't know what the population of Birmingham looks like because we don't have that information yet because the census hasn't been done.

01:15:26.660 And the 2021 census is going to be the census where people like Nigel Farage will be proven right, basically.

01:15:33.800 And, you know, there was a problem with mass immigration.

01:15:36.540 After 10 years of it, it probably does need to change.

01:15:39.420 And it's looming on the horizon.

01:15:42.600 And it's getting closer and closer.

01:15:44.480 And it'll be the subject of quite fiery debate, I have no doubt.

01:15:50.580 or thanks very much for coming on kyle and we'll see you again everybody uh we've got another

01:15:56.920 episode uh we're releasing on sunday with dr david starkey so exciting stuff but uh thanks

01:16:02.680 so much for coming yeah he's great isn't he so that that's coming very soon as we've told you

01:16:07.160 during this time of corona we're going to be putting out a piece of content pretty much every

01:16:10.860 day so we'll see you tomorrow take care and goodbye see you later guys

01:16:20.580 We'll be right back.

TRIGGERnometry - March 25, 2020

Sargon：＂Will Coronavirus End the Culture War？＂

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