TRIGGERnometry - January 03, 2024


Should Porn Be Banned？ - Lila Rose

Topics
multiple families cycles of brokenness pornography bodily autonomy argument porn addiction dangers
Hosted by
Francis Foster Konstantin Kisin
Guests
Lila Rose
Mentioned
Lila Francis Michelle Williams John Stagliano Louise Perry Every Gen Xer Diana Fleischman Aaron Bastani Rob Henderson Nigel Farage Navara Media Ban OnlyFans Dolly Parton Al Capone Gen Xers Nikolai Heroin
Neal Brennan - Lapsed Liberal Will AI Destroy The World？ - Igor Kurganov

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 11 minutes

Words per minute

190.97

Word count

13,589

Sentence count

945

Harmful content

Misogyny

55

sentences flagged

Toxicity

22

sentences flagged

Hate speech

36

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

This week on Trigga, we have a special bonus interview with the great Lila Pippin, host of the new show, and host of about sex and relationships with children. In this episode, Lila talks about the importance of a good relationship between men and women, and why it s so important to have a solid relationship with your kids.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00.800 I think porn should be banned. 0.97
00:00:02.080 And I think sex work, as they call it, of course,
00:00:04.240 should be illegal.
00:00:05.360 It's the pragmatist in me, Lila, that just thinks,
00:00:07.760 if you force this underground, you're
00:00:09.520 going to create prohibition 2.0.
00:00:12.240 There's upload videos of young girls' rapes and boys'
00:00:14.680 rapes on Pornhub all over the place.
00:00:17.040 And it takes sometimes months or years to take it down
00:00:19.360 because Pornhub's legal.
00:00:21.320 And there's all this burden of proof now on the victim
00:00:23.760 to show that this was me, this was me as a child,
00:00:27.400 I didn't consent, take it down.
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00:01:53.400 Lila, I saw this incredible clip of you doing a debate about relationships
00:01:58.600 between men and women, which is one of the things we want to talk to you about.
00:02:00.840 And I have a bit of a reputation for, quote unquote, destroying people with facts and logic.
00:02:06.360 And what I love to do is use the logic that people present in order to challenge their own argument.
00:02:13.800 And that's what you did with this guy. We'll play a clip of it.
00:02:16.120 I might have multiple family.
00:02:18.440 Oh, you never know. I might like family more than you so much. I have five.
00:02:21.560 Do you think that's a good thing to have multiple families?
00:02:23.880 I think it's good if there's one dad and there's not a bunch of step parents involved
00:02:27.080 and the dad can be the hero. And those five families live a 10x better life
00:02:30.200 than they would have otherwise. Yes, ma'am, I do.
00:02:31.720 But you don't think that it will be ultimately
00:02:36.040 an opportunity for jealousy or disharmony amongst two different families?
00:02:38.600 Women are always going to be jealous. What's changed about that? 1.00
00:02:41.240 Women have been jealous all the way through time. I'm not jealous in my marriage.
00:02:44.520 I don't care about your marriage. I'm talking about mine.
00:02:47.000 Well, my life is going to be so I don't answer to you.
00:02:49.880 And you would want that for your daughters? 0.87
00:02:52.680 Yeah. Yeah. I live my life unapologetically on my terms.
00:02:56.760 So but I guess I'm asking if you're comfortable answering, obviously.
00:03:00.040 But are you wanting to be a role model for your kids?
00:03:02.280 Is that part of a thousand percent?
00:03:03.480 A father should show up in every way for his children.
00:03:05.320 I think I'll be better than most fathers, regardless of how many children I have.
00:03:08.440 I might have a hundred.
00:03:09.320 But you think part of being a role model, it's okay for your kids not to know even
00:03:13.720 your relationship status with their own mom?
00:03:16.040 They will know the relationship status with me and their mother.
00:03:18.280 But you have other relationships with other women, too.
00:03:20.440 What does that have to do with anything?
00:03:21.960 I'm just wondering if you think that's a problem.
00:03:23.240 I haven't even said that. I'm just saying, like, if I want to, I will.
00:03:26.360 But you don't think that's a problem for your daughter to know that about their dad?
00:03:30.040 That he has multiple mistresses?
00:03:31.640 That's up to my daughter, man.
00:03:33.640 Why don't you just commit to one and choose to be faithful to her?
00:03:36.680 I'm just not wired that way. I spent my whole 20s trying to fix myself.
00:03:41.080 I thought something was wrong with me.
00:03:42.200 You're a man of self-control. You work out. You do business.
00:03:44.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:03:44.680 You can possess your own power and direct it the way you want to direct it.
00:03:48.840 It's just not how I am. It's not how I am.
00:03:51.320 You think that might be a limited mindset?
00:03:53.400 I think it's none of your business, but I don't want you to think I'm triggered by you. I'm not.
00:03:56.840 I saw somebody say that and I think that's interesting. I think you're annoying, but I'm not triggered.
00:04:01.960 You know what I'm saying? No, you are. You're annoying in like this goody two-shoes type way, and that's fine.
00:04:07.480 I'm going to live my life on my terms unapologetically, like truly.
00:04:12.440 So you can ask me this 85 different ways. At the end of the day, I'm going to walk out of here the same man.
00:04:17.480 Essentially, what we're seeing in the world right now is there's a lot of these influencers 0.92
00:04:23.160 who are telling men and women some moronic things about relationships between men and women,
00:04:29.640 and you exposed that beautifully. Tell us a little bit about what your thinking was and kind of how
00:04:34.200 you see this whole thing. Sure. Well, first of all, it's interesting that the people that I think are
00:04:38.520 some of these influencers giving moronic, as you call it, advice, often they themselves don't seem to
00:04:44.600 come from very happy situations. I think that when you're referring to the clip, the gentleman there, 0.84
00:04:50.840 he says, I can't fix myself. He's basically a victim of himself in his relationships where he
00:04:56.600 has to be promiscuous. He can't commit to one woman. He even admitted when I talked to him that
00:05:01.960 it seems like something that he doesn't have control over. He's just a slave to his passions,
00:05:07.240 basically. Does someone want to live like that, to be a slave to your appetites? Is that really going
00:05:13.080 to bring happiness in the end? And it seems like, you know, you look at the statistics,
00:05:17.320 the research on this, people that do not, you know, people that have multiple families,
00:05:21.880 people that divorce, people have broken relationships, all in all are less satisfied
00:05:26.120 and less happy according to all the data than people that are in monogamous, long-term committed
00:05:31.480 relationships. And so you look at just the sheer data and the large body of it that shows what brings
00:05:38.040 human happiness in relationships. And it's not what those people are preaching, many of them anyways.
00:05:43.640 And that in itself, you know, along with just real world examples, you know, of people that my parents
00:05:47.880 have been married 40 plus years and they've struggled and loved each other through it. And I look at them
00:05:52.440 as this beautiful example of what I aspire to in my marriage. And that's what we need to have as models
00:05:58.280 again, as opposed to, I think, you know, the influencer culture of just do what you feel.
00:06:02.600 And one of the most interesting things about people like that guy, and I don't know him,
00:06:07.320 I'm not picking on him particularly. It's a phenomenon we see across, particularly the online
00:06:11.640 world is a kind of like, you know, I do feel men are lost. I do feel that they've been demonized for
00:06:17.480 quite a long time by certain elements of the culture and young men in particular. And we have
00:06:21.560 young men that work for us and listening to their take on what's going on is quite interesting.
00:06:26.680 But one of the things that is happening is a lot of young men are being told that, you know,
00:06:30.280 you must take control. And these are not bad things, actually. Men should take control of 0.92
00:06:34.440 themselves and their emotions. But what your conversation with that guy revealed is that
00:06:39.320 it's very one-sided. It's like, yeah, take control, be in charge. But when it comes to
00:06:45.480 some other things, when it comes to the way you relate to women, when it comes to 0.72
00:06:49.320 what are you doing to build relationships, it's encouraging men to be completely out of control
00:06:54.760 of the very things that historically society has trained men to be in control of, because that's
00:06:59.960 how society needs to be for it to work. Right. It's control over your economic future,
00:07:04.600 you know, be disciplined, save money, work hard, be an entrepreneur. It's control over your physical
00:07:10.520 body to be healthy and fit and strong. But there's no control over your sexual appetites, which
00:07:15.960 can make or break someone's future. Right. I mean, you look at the abortion rate, you know,
00:07:19.880 the fact that out of abortions today, nine out of 10 women having abortions are unmarried. You know,
00:07:25.560 these are abortion is happening because people are having sex outside of marriage and they're having 0.65
00:07:30.360 sex with lots of different people and they're not ready to commit and not ready to raise that child.
00:07:34.200 And so you have this abortion crisis and, you know, you look at pornography and porn addictions.
00:07:38.680 People can't be monogamous and stay with one woman and love one woman. And all of that is because
00:07:43.480 people are not directing their sexual passion. If you can't do that as a society, the society is going
00:07:48.760 to crumble. And the social data shows that. The thing that I find really worrying,
00:07:53.640 Lila, is you see these, some of these influences and we all know who we're talking about, about
00:07:59.080 naming names. And they put forward this narrative that it's not just about, you know, men being
00:08:05.080 better, which I'm all for, but it's about pushing women down. Like women are something to be conquered 1.00
00:08:11.000 and dominated over. And that is your role as a man. And to me, that seems the most toxic of narratives. 0.74
00:08:18.040 I think it's a reaction to modern feminism, of course, you know, it's this, you know,
00:08:24.120 women are now in many ways outperforming men and, you know, in corporate jobs, there's sort 0.99
00:08:30.360 of affirmative action for women. So they, more women graduate college today. So I think there's
00:08:35.480 an anger among men who see women as being given the special status over them in what, in the Western
00:08:41.160 world and the reaction of, you know, ultimately I think it's a very, it's a wrong reaction,
00:08:49.160 but you can understand the reaction when you look at modern feminism, which is training many women to 0.99
00:08:53.960 see men as less than, to hate men even, to reject men. We don't need men. Men are not necessary for
00:08:59.960 our happiness anymore. When I think the foundation of any society needs to be a strong family, to raise
00:09:07.400 the future children and children need a mother and a father who love each other and have respect with
00:09:11.960 one another and are married and committed to each other. But that vision is lost for many people.
00:09:16.840 And so you have men now disaffected, unhappy, broke it, feeling upset with women, feeling they can't
00:09:24.520 even find a woman. And there's a lot of, I think, divisiveness that has entered into the relationship
00:09:29.800 between men and women that's becoming more mainstream today, which is again, yes, a result
00:09:34.440 of modern feminism, but also men are just struggling. They're, they're disaffected. They're looking for,
00:09:39.480 how do we, how do we root ourselves? How do we succeed economically? How do we find relationships?
00:09:43.720 And where are the teachers for those men? And they're attracted to these online influencers.
00:09:48.280 And the online influencers come in because there is a fatherhood vacuum.
00:09:53.160 Exactly.
00:09:53.720 In that a lot of these poor boys, you know, when I, I taught for many years in poor, in poor areas of
00:10:00.120 London, a lot of the boys and a lot of the girls that I taught, dads weren't around.
00:10:05.560 You are more likely today than in any other decade to be raised in a single parent household,
00:10:10.680 particularly a single mother household in the United States. And so the amount of children
00:10:15.160 being raised without fathers in the home is unprecedented today. And what does that bring?
00:10:20.040 For young women, I think it brings special problems. Certainly for all men and women,
00:10:25.080 girls and boys, it brings more drug addiction, more incarceration, less, worse economic and
00:10:31.400 educational outcomes. But it also brings more likeliness to divorce, more likeliness to cohabitate,
00:10:37.320 less likeliness to marriage in the future for those children. So you're building these cycles
00:10:42.360 of brokenness.
00:10:43.000 And you talk about the cycles of brokenness. I suppose the question is particularly the
00:10:47.720 economic reality that you and Francis were just discussing, which is, historically speaking,
00:10:52.760 women want today a cross and up. They want the man to make as much money as them or more, 1.00
00:10:58.200 they want, and be kind of more successful in some other ways. They want someone to be on their level
00:11:03.240 or more. And yet in a society that increasingly is, you know, shaped in a different way, that seems
00:11:10.360 like quite a difficult problem to resolve. Yes, I've heard that many times, you know, women want 1.00
00:11:16.760 the wealthier man, you know, the more successful or powerful man. And, you know, I look at,
00:11:22.440 and this is anecdotal, yes, but I look at, you know, women who were raised by good fathers, you know,
00:11:28.600 or maybe they weren't, but they went through work to really be at peace with men and the masculine.
00:11:33.640 And I think that it's less about, I want a wealthy man, or I want a powerful man. And it's more about,
00:11:39.000 I want a good man. And I know that that's not a popular narrative today, you know, especially in
00:11:43.800 certain online spaces where it's like, no, women are out for money. They're out for security. 1.00
00:11:47.720 That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. I think your point is accurate in that
00:11:52.200 women will prioritize a man who's kind and a man is going to be a good father. And these are all important
00:11:57.080 things. But cross-culturally, all the evidence is that women look for a man who can provide. 0.88
00:12:03.080 Yes. And I'm not saying they don't want a man who can provide, but I think there is, 0.99
00:12:07.640 anyways, I've seen a narrative that they want, it's not just enough for him to provide as you
00:12:12.040 know, and work hard. It's that they want him to be this kind of top 1%, super wealthy, you know,
00:12:17.800 super wealthy, super handsome. And that's what they want. And I don't think that's most women. 1.00
00:12:22.120 Certainly that's some women. I'm not saying there aren't women who are, you know, 1.00
00:12:25.320 gold digging. We're in LA. We're in LA, sure. But I think there's a lot of, you know,
00:12:31.160 the people that I think are seeking health in their relationships, right? And are seeking
00:12:35.240 health for themselves. You know, they have a positive view of the masculine, a positive view
00:12:38.440 of the feminine. They want to build a family. They want a faithful, monogamous marriage. 1.00
00:12:42.600 Those people are not so much looking for, you know, wealth and perfect, you know, physical
00:12:47.800 perfection in their partner. They're looking for qualities like trustworthiness,
00:12:52.440 hard work, loyalty. And that is what we should be, I think, celebrating and promoting, you know.
00:12:59.640 And unfortunately, sometimes I think those are underplayed and more the dynamic of you've got
00:13:03.880 to be rich. You know, you've got to be successful. That's the way you're going to succeed with women 1.00
00:13:09.080 or whatever it is. That's more promoted and said. And I think that's not doing anybody any favors.
00:13:13.160 No, I completely agree. And that narrative is definitely out there, which is women are 1.00
00:13:18.200 all gold digging whores and blah, blah, blah. That is out there. And people are saying that 1.00
00:13:22.360 stuff, which isn't true of the vast majority of women. 1.00
00:13:25.080 And the feminist narrative is out there that men are all rapists and toxic. 0.80
00:13:28.520 So there's obviously two very negative narratives about men and women that are both false. 0.95
00:13:33.400 Yes. This is what I always say. Any ideology that is designed to drive men and women apart is bad,
00:13:38.200 whether it's feminism or this red pill stuff or whatever. Definitely true. However, 1.00
00:13:44.440 if you go down from the top 1%, the top 1% of gold diggers, the top 1% of super wealthy men,
00:13:50.200 at the end, you're still left with a society in which women increasingly graduate from college at 1.00
00:13:57.000 higher rates, make more money than men until they become mothers, etc. And that is still a structural
00:14:03.240 issue that gets in the way. I think you're right that it certainly doesn't help that man who says,
00:14:12.840 I want to succeed and do my best. And then he feels he's being disfavored, not because of his
00:14:18.440 qualities or his work, but because of being male to that woman next to him, whether it's in the job
00:14:23.880 process, application process, or applying to a university. And I think that's very harmful. I don't
00:14:29.400 think there should be sexism. You know, even affirmative action sexism is sexism in the end,
00:14:36.200 in the university application process, in jobs. And I think the bigger point underlying that is,
00:14:41.960 what are we telling women? What is the message to women about what your fulfillment as a woman looks
00:14:48.200 like? And because of feminism, we have been instructed, and I think also materialism,
00:14:53.240 quite frankly, materialistic Western culture, that our success is in how successful we are,
00:15:00.680 materially speaking. You know, how much money we make, how far we go, how many degrees we get. Yes,
00:15:05.560 education is wonderful, but to what end are you being educated, right? Are you being educated for
00:15:10.280 healthier life and your relationships, or so that you can just be this successful person? And women now,
00:15:16.680 instead of being valued for, yes, you are a whole person, but in society, you have that special gift of
00:15:22.440 being able to bring life into the world as a woman. And that should be valued and cherished,
00:15:26.920 and yes, put up on a pedestal that we can bring life and families need special protections. Mothers, 0.98
00:15:32.760 fathers need special protections, and special support in societies. Okay, so now women encourage that 1.00
00:15:38.840 your femininity, your womanhood, bringing an ability to be a mother is worth cherishing,
00:15:44.680 worth valuing. But that's not the message at large. The message at large is, go be a girl boss, 1.00
00:15:49.880 you know, the Sheryl Sandberg message of lean in, go sit in the corporate boardroom,
00:15:54.120 that's where you're going to fulfill your feminine power, compete with men in the workplace. And I 1.00
00:15:59.480 think that, yes, no, nobody should close off those doors to women. You know, they shouldn't be shut to 1.00
00:16:04.840 women. But I think the greatest superpower of a woman that makes her different from a man is her 1.00
00:16:10.760 ability to be a mother. And that's what we should be celebrating in a society. And we should be
00:16:17.400 fostering what's the message for women today, when it comes to their ability to mother, largely
00:16:24.040 speaking, your reproductive rights. I mean, think about that. Women's Rights National Organization 1.00
00:16:29.480 for Women in America, one of the leading pro women's organizations, as they claim,
00:16:33.320 their top plank is not, let's help women be fully mothers and then also educated and be able to be
00:16:40.680 fulfilled in their life holistically. Let's fight rape, let's fight abuse. Their top plank is,
00:16:45.480 let's have, ensure that you can have an abortion and that it's tax funded and that it's supported 1.00
00:16:51.960 by society and that there's every restriction is removed. So when women are told your empowerment
00:16:59.160 is reproductive rights, AKA abortion, which is killing a child. And typically abortion is encouraged 0.83
00:17:05.000 so that you can go to school if you're pregnant, you can get the job and not be set back in your 0.95
00:17:09.720 career. What is that message to women? The very antithesis of what it means uniquely to be a woman, 0.97
00:17:15.080 your ability to mother, is being denigrated and saying that motherhood ability you have is
00:17:20.280 actually a threat to you competing with men and a threat to you being successful. There was this
00:17:25.320 famous speech at the Golden Globes just a couple of years ago, I don't know if you saw it, Michelle
00:17:29.080 Williams, an actor. And she's clutching her prize, her statue, and she's thanking the abortion that she 0.99
00:17:37.000 had as a young woman for the success that she had in her entertainment career. And she's saying,
00:17:41.880 if I hadn't had the right to choose, I would not be on the stage basically holding this,
00:17:47.000 holding this prize. I mean, that's the image of womanhood in the Western world. You need abortion 1.00
00:17:53.320 and you don't need men in order to be successful. And that's your empowerment. It is no wonder
00:17:58.920 there is so much division between men and women and so much unhappiness.
00:18:02.360 Look, what you're saying is incredibly powerful. And that, I'll be honest with you,
00:18:09.320 this is a subject which I'm still not completely decided over if I'm being honest, but that is
00:18:14.920 absolutely horrendous and an awful, awful thing to say. Especially as well when you look at falling
00:18:21.880 birth. Francis, I'm sorry to interrupt. It kind of makes sense though. Do you know what, like, in some
00:18:26.280 ways because what you're saying, it makes sense because if the purpose of a woman is to be 0.65
00:18:32.440 successful. And compete with men, to be better than men. And to be better than men. And if what we,
00:18:38.840 if a baby prevents, or my wife has a baby, she's not very successful in her career right now because 1.00
00:18:43.960 she's with our son, right? Then yes, then she is right to thank her abortion for her success. 0.79
00:18:52.440 If that's the frame in which we operate. The baby is now the aggressor, the potential
00:18:58.120 child or the actual child, if you're pregnant with that baby, to your success as a woman, to your
00:19:02.680 empowerment and fulfillment as a woman. And so the very thing that is unique about you from different
00:19:07.800 from men, your ability to, our reproduction systems are different. That's our primary difference. 0.97
00:19:12.200 Transphobic. I mean, it is our biological DNA difference is our reproductive systems and those
00:19:19.640 systems uniquely different in how they affect us. I can bring a life into the world through my body.
00:19:25.640 It's amazing. I can gestate. I can then lactate. That requires commitment of at least nine months and
00:19:30.600 beyond. And that requires, does society organize itself to prioritize reproduction and value it,
00:19:39.880 or does it reject it on the altar of economic success, careerism, material good? And that's
00:19:47.400 what our society has chosen so far at large. Sorry, mate. No, it's fine. It's fine.
00:19:53.480 And what that breeds in women, I think, is a real sadness because what they've been taught to believe
00:20:00.440 is that this career will make you happy. And I think what they realize as they hit mid to late 30s,
00:20:08.360 even early 40s is, I've kind of been sold a lot.
00:20:13.960 I mean, women, yes, absolutely. I think there's a lot of, when we talked about disaffected men,
00:20:19.400 a lot of disaffected women who are unhappy, who are single, who are childless.
00:20:25.240 You know, if you go on Reddit and look at sort of the threads about fertility and declining fertility
00:20:30.440 and egg freezing, there's these horror stories of women, you know, they lost their fertility window,
00:20:34.680 they were working, they were studying so hard. They can't find, you know, a man, you know,
00:20:39.240 they're in their late 30s. And just the abject misery many of them feel that their life they feel
00:20:46.200 is passing them by and there's nothing they can do about it. It's not just women, though, I would say. 0.98
00:20:50.920 It's both women and men who, when they wake up one morning and they realize,
00:20:56.440 where am I at? You know, I'm not married. I have no children. And, you know, you shouldn't get married
00:21:03.720 and have children just because, you know, statistical research tells you to be happier. Like, you have to
00:21:08.440 go into it to want to serve and love your spouse, you know, serve and love your children. But those acts
00:21:14.840 of service and love to another human being is a purpose bigger than yourself. And if you don't
00:21:19.720 have that in your intimate life, you are going to be unhappy. You're going to be adrift. People are
00:21:26.920 made for relationship. We're human beings. You know, as mammals, we're made for relationship,
00:21:30.600 but we have spirits and we're made for connection. We don't have that. If we just have ourselves and
00:21:35.560 we're living for ourselves or, you know, we have maybe just sexual connection without the deeper
00:21:40.200 connection, we're not going to be happy. And, you know, we talked about data, but I'm sure it's
00:21:45.240 been mentioned on your show before. Everyone seems to mention it. We know about it, but the Harvard
00:21:48.280 happiness study, you know, this study over a hundred years, two cohorts of men removing,
00:21:53.960 you know, economic differences and educational opportunities, removing those to look at them
00:21:58.520 as the same, meaning you have your less wealthy cohort, your more wealthy and educated cohort.
00:22:03.400 And they discovered that at the end of the day for both groups, the happiest, healthiest
00:22:09.800 men were the ones that ended up choosing long-term marriages and staying married. And you found
00:22:18.360 misery, bankruptcy, lack of health in both groups of men, even the ones that were wealthy and from
00:22:24.680 good educational backgrounds versus not. And you found better outcomes for both groups of men,
00:22:29.880 including the more, you know, the poorer group, the less educated group when they married and when
00:22:34.600 they stayed married and built families. A hundred years of research on that. And there's so much other,
00:22:39.640 data to that too. Again, we're made for connection. We're made for long-term committed relationship.
00:22:44.200 Do you think, and this is going to set me sounding like a big old lefty,
00:22:47.960 but do you think part of this is the fact that we live in a consumerist society
00:22:52.680 where every type of relationship is transactional? Now, if every type of relationship is transactional,
00:23:00.040 doesn't that mean that we're going to view sex as transaction? We're going to view
00:23:04.120 relationships as transactional. What can I get? Because that seems to be the very basis of our
00:23:09.080 society. I think that's a great point. I mean, we are, you know, you can blame,
00:23:14.920 some people like to blame capitalism for it. I would just say it's, you can have a capitalistic
00:23:19.000 society, but still values that see the human person as more important than material things
00:23:24.280 or material success. But yeah, I think people today, you know, we're, we don't think, I mean,
00:23:29.560 I think technology helps, you know, hurts this too, our connection with each other.
00:23:34.520 Um, we're always trying to produce something, you know, it's always about production, uh, producing
00:23:40.280 work product, producing, you know, likes on the internet, producing success. And so we're not in
00:23:45.640 the present moment with each other. And the pace of life is so fast. There's not really time to,
00:23:51.320 is there even time to fall in love? Is there even time to have a baby, take the time off of work to have
00:23:56.840 the baby, take the time off of work to raise the baby. We don't make time for human relationships 1.00
00:24:02.360 today the way we used to. And I think media plays a part because in media, what is, uh, celebrated is,
00:24:10.360 you know, success and wealth and physical beauty and these things, as opposed to experience of just
00:24:16.840 being with people. Cause you can't really see that in media. You know, you don't, you can see,
00:24:20.600 I guess, snapshots on Instagram of people, you know, having beautiful times with their family,
00:24:24.440 maybe having breakfast, but watching someone else do that is different than living it.
00:24:28.040 Yeah. And also as well, it's this idealized view that we have of relationships. And we tend to be
00:24:35.480 a society that avoids discomfort and every relationship has its ups and its downs. And it's
00:24:40.840 also, there are going to be times where you don't get on that well. And instead of thinking to yourself,
00:24:46.520 right, let's move on to the next one, which you're incentivized to do in our culture,
00:24:51.560 it's about sticking and working in it. It's a great point. Yeah. If you just run,
00:24:56.120 when it gets hard, uh, you'll never, you'll never find, I think the happiness and the purpose that you
00:25:02.280 want, because life is going to be hard one way or another. You know, even if you choose to live for
00:25:07.240 yourself, live for your career, you know, the Michelle Williams, hold the golden statue and have
00:25:12.120 the abortion to succeed. Uh, there will still be hardship. You know, you'll feel loneliness.
00:25:16.600 There'll be the stresses of your work. It's what hard do you choose? And, you know, I look at my
00:25:21.240 parents' marriage. I mentioned that. And I look at the couples that I admire who stick with each other
00:25:25.640 through difficult times and work at the relationship. It's not idealized. Like it's not going to take
00:25:30.760 work. Communication takes time. Your relationship is not a, uh, it's not something of utility. It takes
00:25:38.720 some, it takes your time that you can't just plug in and plug out. It's saying you've got to,
00:25:43.160 um, sometimes it's going to disrupt your work week. Sometimes it's going to be the thing that
00:25:47.000 you have to invest significant time into and do that regularly and have just leisure time with
00:25:51.800 the person, you know, just be with them. If you can't, if you can't make space for that in your life
00:25:56.760 and prioritize it, then I don't think you're going to find the happiness that you want.
00:26:01.900 We'll be back with our guests in a minute, but first, do you remember the Canadian trucker protest in
00:26:06.840 2022 where thousands of Canadians came out to protest COVID restrictions and vaccine mandates?
00:26:12.300 Now, these protests lasted for weeks and the people out on the streets needed funds as any
00:26:18.700 grassroots protest would. So people set up online crowdfunding campaigns, which raised millions of
00:26:25.040 dollars. Incredible. But once the Canadian authorities had started to criticize the crowdfunding platforms,
00:26:32.200 ramping up pressure to close the campaigns, it didn't take long for the biggest crowdfunding platform,
00:26:37.660 the one we've all heard of, to completely capitulate and shut the campaigns down.
00:26:43.020 Now, this is where our partners, Give, Send, Go, come in. They stepped in when the other platforms
00:26:48.340 backed off and raised millions of dollars for the truckers. When they were criticized and dragged
00:26:53.740 through the Canadian courts, Give, Send, Go said it respected diverse views and believed hope and freedom
00:26:59.680 are values worth fighting for. This is why we're proud to partner with Give, Send, Go.
00:27:04.400 So, if you need to crowdfund for whatever means the most to you, then don't go to the big tech
00:27:10.640 platforms. We recommend you do it on Give, Send, Go. Starting a campaign on Give, Send, Go is easy
00:27:17.240 and intuitive. Go to givesendgo.com today. That's givesendgo.com to start raising money for whatever
00:27:24.800 is important to you. And now, back to the interview.
00:27:28.020 And there's also, we've started to be this culture, which I find morally repugnant, that celebrates
00:27:36.480 divorce. I've seen like, you know, divorce parties, divorce cakes. And look, sometimes marriages aren't
00:27:42.640 good. Sometimes, you know, there's things like abuse or there's a breakdown of a relationship,
00:27:47.060 but that's nothing to be celebrated.
00:27:50.260 You know, the two of the top reasons for a divorce is number one, I just wasn't committed.
00:27:55.340 Lack of commitment. Meaning something else became the priority more than the relationship,
00:28:01.060 which it's easy to do in today's world. Your work, you know, your other pursuits or feeling
00:28:07.020 of self-fulfillment outside of the relationship, they're stopping me from this thing that I want
00:28:10.960 to do. And the second thing is pornography. Because people are, you know, pornography is
00:28:18.020 everywhere. It's ubiquitous. Everywhere you look, OnlyFans has just ballooned in the last few
00:28:23.500 years. Now, like every young girl is thinking, not every, but many, is this a career option for me?
00:28:29.420 It's like being an Instagram influencer was a few years ago. Now, should I consider an OnlyFans
00:28:33.720 account? You know, I've had people on the internet, when are you going to do OnlyFans? I mean, it's
00:28:37.280 just like everyone's, I mean, it's ridiculous, obviously, but it's- 0.52
00:28:39.940 We don't get that. 0.83
00:28:40.640 No, you don't get that.
00:28:41.560 But it's every, it's just now it's part of this, the mindset of like, women do it. Women 1.00
00:28:47.100 do it everywhere. You know, I've been on a lot of podcasts talking to different people
00:28:51.700 in the porn industry. I don't even like to call it that because it's a sexual exploitation
00:28:55.860 industry. But the amount of sheer porn use, you know, porn is the most searched for thing
00:29:01.540 on the web. Child assault material, they say child porn is increased in its searches every
00:29:08.080 single year over the last decade. It's incredible. And yes, it's breaking down marriages, but what
00:29:13.840 else is it doing? I mean, it's, it's, it's polluting male, female relationships more than 1.00
00:29:19.400 any other force I would say today.
00:29:21.340 And why would you say that, Lila? Why would you say that it's polluting male and female
00:29:24.720 relationships?
00:29:25.300 Because it's teaching objectification as the first, as the first glance of how you see
00:29:32.480 someone. Instead of seeing someone as a person holistically I'm going to engage with, you're
00:29:38.220 training yourself to see someone as a sex object. And when you see people as sex objects, certainly 0.99
00:29:45.200 you're not training yourself to be in a healthy relationship. Because when you are in a healthy
00:29:50.640 relationship, you see someone as a full person, body, mind, and soul, and you care for
00:29:54.500 them, you're willing to sacrifice for them. They're not an object for your sexual gratification.
00:29:58.660 Do you think the point that you've just made, and we'll stick with porn, but I just want
00:30:01.800 to make a parallel there because you talk about it teaches objectification. I kind of feel like
00:30:09.940 social media is basically that for everything else too, where we've become avatars of ourselves.
00:30:17.940 You are the latest three tweets that you've posted instead of the fully rounded human being
00:30:23.760 that other people don't really get to see. And so we are looking at each other in every lens now
00:30:29.300 through a very tiny sliver of our personalities, very often the one that we want to portray to the
00:30:34.860 world. And we've kind of become very superficial, not just sexual, all our connections have become
00:30:41.720 quite superficial as of ourselves.
00:30:42.980 I mean, it's an interesting point. I think it's certainly true for, I mean, especially for
00:30:48.440 generations. I think about Gen Zers, you know, one beneath us, I think, are our younger brothers 1.00
00:30:53.820 and sisters who just grew up. They didn't have a world. Like, I didn't have an iPhone when I was 13.
00:30:58.620 Yeah.
00:30:59.000 Every Gen Zer did. So that's all that they know. And, you know, they're more likely to, 0.99
00:31:04.520 you know, text than talk. You know, they're more likely to Snapchat than talk or meet in person.
00:31:09.700 And yeah, what does that do to how you see people at a very deep level? It's, I'm sure it's not
00:31:15.400 healthy. Pornography is an additional, you know, unique evil because you can see someone's Twitter
00:31:23.280 or their Instagram and yeah, maybe not see them fully, but you learn about them and you can have
00:31:27.980 maybe, maybe that can contribute something positive to the relationship. Oh, you had a new baby. You know,
00:31:32.060 oh, I learned about what you thought about this latest current event. Interesting. Let's engage and
00:31:35.620 have a coffee about it. With pornography, you're violating yourself and the other person
00:31:40.940 because you're using them for sexual gratification when human beings are not objects for sexual
00:31:46.840 gratification. And you've spoken to a lot of people in the porn industry. You've been in debates with
00:31:52.820 them. What have you learned about this particular industry? Oh, it's an interesting question.
00:31:57.780 Um, well, first of all, beyond talking to people in part because my, my pro-life is connected to some
00:32:05.680 of investigative work I've done on trafficking, human trafficking, how that connects with abortion.
00:32:11.160 A lot of trafficking victims have abortions. Uh, they're pressured to have them by their pimps. I
00:32:16.660 mean, there's a whole, uh, world of abuse and exploitation that's connected here. Children are,
00:32:21.920 I mean, it makes sense. If you, um, abuse sex, new life comes into the picture. Inevitably new human
00:32:28.320 lives because sex brings life. Even with contraception, it has a failure rate. 50%, by the way, of, um,
00:32:34.780 women who have abortions are using contraception the month they got pregnant. 50% of women have
00:32:39.740 abortions. So you see this connection between new life being destroyed because we exploit people
00:32:46.660 sexually. Uh, Louise Perry, I think she was on your podcast. She's phenomenal. She had a piece out 0.95
00:32:51.140 recently, uh, calling attention to the fact that under brothels, uh, you look at, you excavate
00:32:57.040 brothels from like the Roman empire and you're going to find the common thing that you can find 0.85
00:33:01.980 are the bodies of male infants, uh, the skeletons of male infants, the remains, because the female
00:33:08.100 infants can be used for sex trade, but the male infants would just be murdered upon being born.
00:33:13.220 So you find this connection age old between infanticide, between abortion and sexual exploitation.
00:33:18.960 Um, but all that to say, you know, when I talk to people in the porn industry,
00:33:24.860 I think there's certainly a disconnect between, um, there's certainly a defense of abortion.
00:33:29.300 I found that very common because we need abortion. It's our backup contraception,
00:33:33.820 but I also find a lack of, I think, just self-worth. I mean, that's the most tragic thing is that I am
00:33:42.340 good for money. I am good for money by selling myself sexually. And money is something that is 0.94
00:33:50.640 this, uh, prize that I need to pursue and large amounts of money. I'm talking to successful,
00:33:55.680 usually, you know, people who make making lots of money and these material things, this car that I
00:34:00.780 bought, the standard of life that I have is worth it to me to sell my body. Um, and I find that for
00:34:06.960 some of them that I talked to, you know, single girls involved in, uh, you know, sexual exploitation
00:34:11.740 and pornography, many of them express the desire to want to have a relationship with a man and be
00:34:19.040 married and even have children one day. And they're sort of torn because they know what they're doing
00:34:24.480 may prevent that, but what they're doing is so financially lucrative that they're going to keep
00:34:28.900 doing it. And so I've talked with a lot of OnlyFans creator girls who say they want to be married,
00:34:34.680 but they feel like that this is how they're making money. And so they can't kind of,
00:34:39.460 they can't make the sacrifice today of I'm not, I'm going to reject this profession because it's
00:34:42.920 going to hurt, you know, this trade because it's going to hurt my potential to be in a,
00:34:46.740 in a loving marriage and have kids one day. But it's again, the short term, it connected back to,
00:34:52.840 I think even, you know, sexual ethics, it's preventing short-term gratification. It's saying no to
00:34:58.960 short-term gratification for long-term love. And in that moment, you see it play out. I'm getting
00:35:04.280 money for this thing that I'm doing. Right. But I want this long-term thing, but I'm not willing
00:35:09.280 to sacrifice today to get the long-term thing that I want. This is going to sound very crude. You know
00:35:13.980 what I find interesting? And I think it comes back to what you were talking about right at the
00:35:18.300 beginning about the idea of like women being empowered by taking control, but because, and the
00:35:25.440 reason I said this is going to sound very crude, but it is, you know, true if we were talking about
00:35:29.380 other animals, a lot of the women you're talking about are very beautiful women who could probably 1.00
00:35:35.900 secure a similar material lifestyle by finding a partner who's, who's very successful financially
00:35:43.340 and being with them and having kids as they probably eventually want. So it seems like at least I'm
00:35:50.160 exploring this with you. I'm thinking out loud, and this is always a bad idea on the internet,
00:35:53.860 but we'll try. Right. It's almost like it's about, I want to make the money here. Do you see
00:36:00.400 what I'm saying? Yeah. Because they could just marry somebody who will make that money because 0.98
00:36:04.900 they're likely to be able to secure someone who could do that. Right. And it seems to me like it's
00:36:09.700 not just about materialism. It's also about the, what we call empowerment now, which is people
00:36:16.560 ripping themselves apart from each other instead of seeking to bond together and build things
00:36:21.840 together. I mean, it's a good, it's a good point. I mean, I think there's also the, an idea there of
00:36:27.660 bodily autonomy of, I have this body, I can do whatever I want with. And that's very much, I think
00:36:33.940 we've been infected with that, especially women in this country to say, you have this radical bodily 1.00
00:36:38.620 autonomy to the point that if you're pregnant, you can kill another body inside your body. Um, and you 1.00
00:36:43.860 know, the bodily autonomy argument with pornography is I can do whatever I want with my body. As long as
00:36:48.040 I'm calling the shots, as long as I'm consenting to even this degrading sexual act.
00:36:54.140 And what's wrong with that argument? I'm not degraded. What's wrong with that argument? Because
00:36:57.460 look, a kind of the liberal perspective of which I'm broadly in sympathy with is people are allowed
00:37:04.000 to do whatever the hell they want to do within the law. Right. I mean, that, that's what the law
00:37:07.800 is for. It's to demarcate what we can do and what we can't do. Well, all rights have responsibilities.
00:37:13.200 Mm-hmm. So my right to certain freedoms will always come with responsibilities and the law
00:37:19.100 should be founded on human rights, on ideas of rights and ideas of responsibilities. As a, you
00:37:25.500 know, person in this country, I have the right to choose to marry and choose to have children. No one
00:37:29.460 can stop me from that. But then I have the responsibility in a marriage to my partner,
00:37:33.980 certain responsibilities. I think I owe them loyalty. I owe them fidelity. I owe them my kindness,
00:37:38.980 my presence. And if I conceive a child and whether I'm married or not, and I conceive a child,
00:37:44.300 I have a responsibility as a parent, even if I didn't consent to the act, act within my body of
00:37:50.580 conception happening, I consented to sex, having sex. And if I conceive a child, I have a responsibility 0.80
00:37:56.280 now to that child, even if I don't want it. But the bodily autonomy argument says I have endless
00:38:02.140 rights with no responsibility. And yes, you have an amount of autonomy to the point where someone else
00:38:08.200 has rights that you may have responsibility to. Oh, on abortion, I agree with you. That's a much 0.81
00:38:11.800 more complicated thing. But in terms of the sex industry, what is the argument for a woman who 1.00
00:38:18.060 wants to go and have sex for money to not do that? One more thing before on abortion, I just want to 0.99
00:38:24.140 say, and then I do want to answer that. I don't think abortion is complicated. I think it's actually
00:38:29.240 very simple because it's a question of, is it always wrong to kill an innocent person, an innocent
00:38:36.080 human? Is it always wrong to kill an innocent human? And I don't know, would you agree it's
00:38:40.280 always wrong to kill an innocent human? Yes. Okay. I think we can agree. And most people do agree. I
00:38:44.240 would say 95% of people I talk to agree, which is nice. All right. Well, abortion ends the life of an 0.97
00:38:50.180 innocent human. And I can prove that to you. You don't need to.
00:38:53.100 The pre-born fetus embryo is a human. Of course. Clearly, they're alive. Abortion is an act that 0.59
00:38:59.700 kills them. And they're innocent. They've committed no wrong. So therefore, abortion, because it kills 0.96
00:39:05.620 an innocent human, is always wrong. So all the nuance that we've invented around abortion, all the 0.57
00:39:11.840 arguments, all the rationalizations and justifications fall apart when you look at plainly
00:39:17.060 what is right and wrong and what that human life is. There are human life. But I wanted to set that
00:39:24.340 because I think abortion, it's unpopular to talk about. People don't like to talk about it. Or if
00:39:29.260 they do, they want to talk about it in the framework of women's rights and empowerment. They don't want 1.00
00:39:33.880 to talk about what it is that it kills human life. They don't want to talk about the morality that
00:39:37.360 that's always wrong. We have no problem talking about it. We've had people from both sides who are as
00:39:41.980 strident as you are. So we... I consider it logical. It's not an extreme one way or the other.
00:39:48.500 I didn't say extreme. I said strident. It's a different thing. You're passionate about it,
00:39:51.820 which I completely respect. Totally. But come back to me with to the other argument, which is about
00:39:57.300 why women are and aren't allowed to have sex for money, essentially. Yeah. I think it's because 1.00
00:40:03.840 we have a responsibility and society at large. I think porn should be banned.
00:40:08.520 And I think sex work, as they call it, of course, should be illegal. And first of all,
00:40:13.420 it's because sex is designed to bring life into the world. And even with contraception,
00:40:18.200 like I said, it often does. And so you need to... Morality calls us to have responsibility along
00:40:26.380 with rights when it comes to sex. And our responsibility with sex is that we are ready
00:40:32.460 and prepared, you know, as ready as we can. We know one's fully ready to be a parent, but we are
00:40:36.460 willing to accept the responsibility of a new life that we may create. And responsibility would say
00:40:41.840 that we should be having sex in scenarios, in circumstances that are primed for that life to
00:40:49.460 be able to live and flourish. And that's not a one-night stand. That's not a hookup. That's not a porn
00:40:56.180 scene. Ideally, that's a loving marriage that we've freely chosen where we can raise those children
00:41:03.800 together. And so when you look at the morality, when you look at the morality of sex and sexual
00:41:08.480 ethics, you know, the purpose of sex, what's it designed for? New life and connection between two
00:41:13.460 people. It tells us a lot about how we should behave. And so to your question about, you know,
00:41:19.240 why women shouldn't sell themselves, because what is sex designed for? Sex is designed for a 1.00
00:41:25.400 connection between you and another person that I think should be lifelong. It bonds you emotionally.
00:41:30.160 I think it bonds you spiritually. And there's a lot of science that shows that, but it also can bring
00:41:34.840 life into the world. So your right to choose to have sex with someone comes with the responsibility
00:41:39.820 that you're choosing that in the context of committing to them and loving them, not just letting
00:41:47.160 them use you or you using them for a moment of pleasure. Okay. And I agree with all of that.
00:41:53.400 The one thing that I would like to talk to you about the porn industry before we go on to the
00:41:56.840 banning thing, because that's where I think things get a lot more complicated, if I'm honest,
00:42:01.020 is the addiction element to porn, whereby you see a lot of men just get hooked on this dopamine cycle
00:42:09.000 where they are constantly going on to new clip after new clip. And you just see, and when you talk to
00:42:15.440 these men, you just see that they become hooked on it in the way that it's almost drug-like.
00:42:22.480 Yeah. I mean, exactly. It's, it is drug-like for a lot of men and, and some women too. I mean,
00:42:28.500 there's a lot of female porn users now increasingly, um, which is, you know, uncommon maybe a decade ago, 0.97
00:42:35.500 but it's so everywhere. And it's so, you know, it's so encouraged even, or treated as such a casual
00:42:41.000 thing that women are encouraged to explore it too. And girls are encouraged to explore it too, 0.98
00:42:45.520 but it's highly addictive. And, um, that makes it all the more dangerous. But I think it also tells
00:42:53.440 you something about the nature of sex. Sex is very powerful. It's very beautiful. And if we keep
00:43:00.660 treating it as cheap as a society, as something you can literally sell for a subscription of $5 online
00:43:06.200 for your account, your OnlyFans account, um, we're going to keep making misery for ourselves,
00:43:12.080 leaving a path of misery for ourselves. Okay. So let's get into banning porn. And this is where
00:43:17.300 I think we're going to have a disagreement because... He's a massive fan. I'm a massive fan. I want to
00:43:21.880 watch it every day, mate. Oh gosh. All day, every day. Someone's going to clip that. We're joking.
00:43:26.560 We're joking. I believe you're joking. Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to banning porn, this is the issue.
00:43:34.400 There are lots of things in the world that I disagree with that I think are damaging,
00:43:39.200 but I think banning them drives them underground and it just creates, it encourages a black market
00:43:47.220 where a black market happens. That's where you have criminal gangs start to operate because you're
00:43:53.880 not allowing reputable or the free market to get involved. And you create something that is far,
00:44:01.700 far darker and more dangerous for everybody involved. What say you to that?
00:44:06.620 You can certainly make that argument about many things like, you know, sexual assault material.
00:44:11.100 I mean, that's certainly black market because thankfully that's still illegal, right? 0.97
00:44:15.000 But just because something, uh, there may be a black market for something, uh, if it were to be made
00:44:20.460 illegal, then therefore it should be made illegal. I don't think it's a compelling case.
00:44:24.160 But hang on a second. Most men wouldn't be interested in sexual assault material,
00:44:28.780 but I would say most men would enjoy pornography.
00:44:31.620 Well, I don't know that that's true. Some of the most highly, uh, maybe not child sexual
00:44:35.320 assault material, very young children, but some of the most highly viewed pornography,
00:44:39.220 like on Pornhub is of, you know, um, mock rape scenes of maybe just barely of age girls.
00:44:45.800 Inconvening. Well, I don't know about the...
00:44:47.160 So it's definitely a very popular, some of the most popular pornography,
00:44:50.740 um, especially for addicts that need to get more and more intense pornography is violent pornography.
00:44:56.280 Well, interestingly, the statistics show that it's actually more women that are interested 0.99
00:45:03.080 in that type of content than men. For reasons that historically make sense.
00:45:08.280 What statistic have you seen for that?
00:45:09.640 Um, I don't remember where, I mean...
00:45:12.000 Because I've seen that men, it's a, it's a highly popular porn, pornography for men,
00:45:16.060 maybe for women too. 0.97
00:45:17.000 But those two things are not mutually exclusive. Something can be very popular with men
00:45:20.880 and more popular with women, uh, for reasons that from an evolutionary perspective would make sense 0.88
00:45:25.920 to me, uh, given how human beings have evolved and the nature of war and in our past and so on.
00:45:31.360 I hear you. Yeah. But I think the point I'm making still stands that, um, when you're dealing
00:45:36.400 with something highly addictive and in order for it to be continually sort of satisfactory for the
00:45:41.040 addict, it needs to be more and more intense. You see more and more violent and depraved
00:45:46.560 and degrading pornography. 0.99
00:45:48.960 Okay. Um, and I take your argument, but surely we can use that argument for alcohol. Where I come
00:45:54.560 from in the UK, we have a horrible, horrible relationship with alcohol. You know, you look
00:46:00.160 at the destruction it causes, the assaults, the murders, deaths when people get behind the wheel
00:46:07.040 and they're drunk, assaults, all of these things. And you can use the same addiction. People,
00:46:13.600 there's a lot of alcohol addicts in my country, a lot of people with alcohol addiction.
00:46:18.240 I think the difference there is, um, porn, I believe is intrinsically evil. Uh, having a glass
00:46:24.800 of wine, you know, not drinking to excess, uh, can be a, a good even, you know, it's a,
00:46:29.520 it can be a beautiful thing to do in a, you know, at a wedding or on a date or, you know,
00:46:33.520 whatever it might be. So I think there's a fundamental difference between the thing, um, you know,
00:46:39.280 porn on, porn and alcohol. I don't think there's a way to do good porn. There's not a way to, um,
00:46:45.520 sexually objectify someone in a good way or to be sexually objectified in a good way. 0.61
00:46:50.880 But do you think by making it illegal, it's, it's then going to drive it underground and you're
00:46:56.880 going to make that industry worse? I don't think it has to be that way. I think in fact,
00:47:03.040 if we make it illegal, you know, laws have a power to instruct, you know, a few decades ago,
00:47:08.720 people didn't wear seatbelts and no one thought twice about it. Uh, then it became the law to wear
00:47:13.680 a seatbelt and there were campaigns explaining you should wear seatbelts. And now you kind of feel
00:47:18.720 uncomfortable if you forget your seatbelt on because you feeling like you're, you know, you're
00:47:22.320 certainly the seatbelt for your child. It's like, oh, you know, God forbid. And so I do think the law,
00:47:27.360 um, is instructive and that's one of its powers. And so for us to say, yeah, of sexually objectifying
00:47:34.720 someone, um, looking at pictures of someone to, you know, have a sexual experience is,
00:47:41.280 is not just immoral, but you shouldn't be able to do that. If you're, you know, on the website,
00:47:46.480 on the web searching, it's illegal to have, to create these images and be putting them out there.
00:47:50.960 Um, and, you know, I, I think it might be a step too far to born, to ban people who look at it,
00:47:56.320 you know, cause that would be very hard to, how would you practically, um, actually make that law
00:48:01.360 enforced? Right. And it's very hard to enforce, but certainly pornographers who are profiting off
00:48:06.080 of this, um, I think who are exploiting people. I think, I don't think that should be legal.
00:48:10.800 The problem with that argument, Lila, and I'm not unsympathetic to it genuinely,
00:48:15.520 is that the seatbelt analogy is not a good one because the sexual drive, particularly in men,
00:48:22.720 but I mean, we evolved to reproduce. Right. So the sexual drive in men in particular is so strong
00:48:30.400 that no one is a dick. No one, no one evolved to not wear a seatbelt. Right. So you're going to have 0.99
00:48:37.840 men seeking out sexual experiences in any which way they can. I mean, I promise you, I was a teenage
00:48:44.400 boy once, you know, that there's been lots of comedy routines about men, uh, and how they think
00:48:51.920 about these things that, that thing is going to drive men. It's the, it's, it's what drives human
00:48:58.160 beings. Um, so they're going to seek that out. And when we look at things like prohibition in this
00:49:04.560 country over something far less addictive and far less important to people as alcohol, that does not
00:49:09.920 end well, I think is the point that Francis is making. I understand the point, but I think it's
00:49:14.640 to say the answer to, you know, a teenage boy having a strong sex drive is that we should permit
00:49:20.320 pornographers to have prolific amounts of porn online. And that should be perfectly legal. I don't
00:49:24.800 think it's a sound argument. I think it shouldn't be legal for pornographers to be plastering pornography
00:49:30.320 all over the internet for teen boys to stumble upon. And then ultimately many of them enter a cycle
00:49:34.240 of addiction and unhappiness. You know, it's not making their relationship stronger. These boys,
00:49:37.760 it's not making them better workers. It's not making them better people. Um, does that mean
00:49:42.240 that some men won't go out of their way to find porn that's been illegally created? Well, of course,
00:49:47.520 you know, some men who have such, you know, maybe a brokenness and, you know, such an intense
00:49:53.760 overriding sex drive might commit horrible acts like rape, but of course we don't legalize rape.
00:49:58.320 You know, we say it's always wrong. We're going to stop it. Do some bad things still happen? Yes.
00:50:03.520 But I don't think the fact that the bad thing may happen still is a reason to continue to support it
00:50:09.920 economically as a society, allow an industry, it's a multi-billion dollar industry, uh, to allow it 0.91
00:50:15.680 to just operate without any, uh, any, any force stopping it. I think the reason, and we're pushing
00:50:21.040 back in a kind of, we're exploring the argument. This is what we do with all of our guests.
00:50:26.400 It's a good trigonometry conversation. It is. I feel that. And as you, I mentioned before we
00:50:31.520 started, we recently had Ayla on, who's from the sex industry. So we want to explore every
00:50:36.560 issue from different angles with people and challenge what they're saying. One of the issues
00:50:41.040 that I think the reason we're having this disagreement, if it is a disagreement, is we're
00:50:46.400 talking about the practicality you were talking about from morality. And this is my experience of
00:50:51.760 people who are conservative generally, they have a very strong moral core and their sense of moral
00:50:59.040 outrage about things that they find offensive sometimes overrides the practical reality of
00:51:05.040 things. I mean, for example, the war on drugs in my experience doesn't work and causes a lot of harm,
00:51:11.920 a lot of harm. Does that mean, you know, I've got a 16 year old, 16 month son that you met,
00:51:16.720 does that mean I want him to be, you know, smoking weed when he's 12? No.
00:51:20.960 No. But would you make the harder drugs illegal? Illegal, excuse me.
00:51:24.960 Which ones?
00:51:25.920 Cocaine. Should cocaine be illegal? Heroin.
00:51:28.400 Not for me. No.
00:51:29.520 So you are for, I think, but the point here is you are for...
00:51:32.880 Some restrictions.
00:51:33.680 Some restrictions. And so, you know, back to pornography for a moment.
00:51:39.520 Again, I agree with you that some people will look at pornography, but I don't think it's a good
00:51:44.320 argument to say that because some people will still look at pornography, we should allow,
00:51:49.040 because what I'm advocating for is banning pornographers from creating.
00:51:52.720 Okay, okay.
00:51:53.120 Ban OnlyFans. You know, ban, you know, John Stagliano. I remember him coming to my classroom
00:51:58.240 at UCLA as a student talking about how proud he was to be a pornographer. And, you know,
00:52:03.040 my free speech professor who was really into porn, it was kind of gross, but he was so excited to have 0.84
00:52:07.920 this famous pornographer. And John was saying, yeah, the Supreme Court, you know, is stopping
00:52:12.240 basically child porn makers, but they still allow me. And I was just like, why do they allow you to do
00:52:17.360 what you're doing? It's disgusting. That should be illegal. You know, looking at porn, I'm not saying 0.98
00:52:22.400 that that should be illegal. I think that's impossible to enforce. I agree with you. But
00:52:26.560 people creating it, profiting from it, I don't think there's any good reason to allow that.
00:52:30.080 What about a couple that make their own webcam videos?
00:52:32.640 I don't think any individual or couple or corporate structure should be allowed to be making pornography
00:52:41.200 and profiting off of it. Where I'm in agreement with you, Lila, actually, is I think that every
00:52:46.480 single one of those websites should have, should not allow anyone who is under the age of 18 to view
00:52:52.640 that content. And I think that that needs to be very strictly enforced. How? Well, there needs to be,
00:52:59.920 I mean, I'm not one of these tech people. I know I look like one, but I'm really not.
00:53:04.640 But there needs to be some kind of child lock. And look, you know,
00:53:08.000 they need to do everything in their power to make sure that the people accessing that content are
00:53:14.480 over the age of 18. But think about it this way. If you are a, if you're Pornhub, and this is
00:53:19.600 happening right now, Pornhub's making billions of dollars. I think Pornhub is disgusting, can I just
00:53:24.480 say? But there's, that's who we're talking about. I'm talking about ban the pornographers. Pornhub 0.94
00:53:28.400 is case in point, right? Pornhub should not be allowed. Pornhub are not pornographers.
00:53:32.560 They're a platform where people can share their porn. I consider that a pornographer. I mean,
00:53:36.400 they're, they're publishing porn. I mean, you also want to ban the couple 0.95
00:53:39.440 making their own videos. So it's not just that you want to ban pornography.
00:53:42.480 I think, yeah. You want to ban pornography. I want to ban people that create and distribute
00:53:46.640 pornography. Yes. I want to ban that, that whole system, right? And Pornhub is essential today to
00:53:51.840 that system. And Pornhub has surprisingly, you know, it's not a surprise, is very, you know, slow,
00:54:01.680 reticent about strong controls of underage viewers of their product, right?
00:54:07.840 Yeah, of course.
00:54:08.320 Because, you know, they, they want it, they want that market. And they're also very
00:54:12.400 reticent to have any sort of meaningful system to stop underage pornography from being uploaded to
00:54:18.240 their, you know, child sexual assault material ultimately from being uploaded to their site.
00:54:22.640 But we are still allowing them to operate with impunity. So you have this additional problem by allowing
00:54:27.760 pornography to be published and created that you always along the, along the edges have,
00:54:33.120 it's not just, you know, a consenting couple happily making pornography in their bedroom,
00:54:36.800 you know, this sort of myth of that. You have young girls, young boys who are sexually exploited,
00:54:43.280 many of who were sexually exploited from a very young age, who are now part of a system of
00:54:48.320 pornography by people who are exploiting them. And now they're part of pornography on Pornhub.
00:54:54.720 You know, there's upload videos of young girls' rapes and boys' rapes on Pornhub all over the
00:54:59.200 place. And it takes sometimes months or years to take it down because porn's legal. Pornhub's legal.
00:55:05.760 And there's all this burden of proof now on the victim to show that this was me, this was me as
00:55:11.200 a child, I didn't consent, take it down. If the whole system wasn't allowed to exist in the first place,
00:55:18.400 you're protecting so many victims. And this is the other side that needs to be talked about,
00:55:22.160 protecting so many potential victims. You see, I mean, look, I think a lot of what you're saying,
00:55:29.200 I really do agree with. I think that the whole child's exploitation when it comes to sex is
00:55:35.280 abhorrent, it's vile. And if what you're saying is true, and you're not the first person I've heard
00:55:39.440 saying this about Pornhub, they need to be investigated. And if they are not doing everything
00:55:44.320 in their power to protect children, then quite frankly, they need to be shut down because that
00:55:49.760 is vile. It's vile. My issue is with your argument, and I'm somebody, by the way, who's installed a
00:55:56.880 porn blocker on their phone. I don't watch it because I think it's toxic and it's bad. It's bad.
00:56:03.520 My issue is, is not the morality of it, which I'm in agreement with you, actually,
00:56:08.560 if I'm being brutally honest. It's the pragmatist in me, Lila, that just thinks if you force this
00:56:13.520 underground, you're going to create prohibition 2.0. We saw what happened when they banned alcohol.
00:56:19.280 You had the rise of Al Capone, et cetera, the organized gangs. I just think as unpleasant as it
00:56:25.600 is, we need to be pragmatic, regulate it as stringently as possible, block kids from using it,
00:56:33.280 and accept, unfortunately, that it's here to stay. That is my position.
00:56:36.800 Yeah. I just, I don't buy the argument that you can successfully regulate exploitation material of
00:56:42.560 adults or minors, and that there's a way to do it in a pragmatic or certainly moral way. And I think
00:56:50.160 that it's all bad. It's all proven toxic to the user. It's all harmful to the creator. You know,
00:56:56.880 it's all often includes, you know, really abusive corporations like Pornhub that are immoral all the
00:57:04.240 way through. And so allowing them any sort of breathing room in everyday society, you know,
00:57:09.920 and economic power by saying, you can operate, you can operate. Just, just make sure the minor,
00:57:15.200 there's no minors. Just make sure, you know, you're using, you know, an ID or whatever it is.
00:57:21.760 It's not going to be enough, first of all. And then second of all, the problem isn't just that
00:57:25.920 minors are exploited. It's that adults are exploited too and exploiting other adults.
00:57:31.840 So I think, yes, of course, there will be some people who will still look at porn. There will be
00:57:36.160 some people who still create porn, but they will have much less power. And I think they will make much
00:57:40.880 less money and it will be much less socially acceptable than it is today.
00:57:47.280 I was going to move on, but I've just remembered something, um, from, um, a former guest of ours.
00:57:52.560 She's an evolutionary psychologist called Diana Fleischmann. Um, one of the things that I remember
00:57:58.000 her talking about is, and this is very, I mean, I say, I was going to say it's counterintuitive, but maybe
00:58:03.360 it isn't societies that allow porn have lower levels of sexual violence, which I'm curious.
00:58:12.000 I would, I'd want to see her data on that and where she got that data. Yeah. Uh, I'm pretty sure
00:58:16.560 she's someone who researches these things and she's a very smart person and, uh, not ideological about
00:58:22.560 it. Um, that kind of makes sense to me because the pent up frustrations of men who don't have access to
00:58:32.400 sex of whom, as we discussed earlier, there are many, many, many, many.
00:58:39.840 I don't, I don't, I can see how those would spill out in, in nasty ways. In many ways, we're seeing
00:58:45.520 it now. I mean, incels and some of the things that they have been involved with. Well, incels have access
00:58:51.200 to endless porn. Yes. So I, I, I think I would want to see her research. I don't buy it. Um, the research 0.99
00:58:59.760 I've seen actually, and the, and the studies I've seen actually prove opposite that the more you
00:59:05.600 train yourself to sexually objectify someone, um, the more difficult it is to for you to interact
00:59:10.880 healthfully with people in real life. And I think it logically makes sense on a logical level. It
00:59:15.760 certainly makes sense from the stories of those who are porn addicted, that they struggle in their
00:59:19.280 real relationships. It makes sense from the countless stories of people, especially girls in
00:59:24.480 in relationships with, uh, men or boys that are, you know, young, these are teen relationships,
00:59:28.720 some of them are older, but who are porn, uh, trained to think about sex in terms of pornography.
00:59:34.240 And so they're asked to do degrading, strange acts. They're compared to these ideas that their 0.71
00:59:39.120 partner has in their head from their porn experience and exposure. So I think, uh, I would have to look
00:59:44.400 at what she's actually referring to, but look at American society today. We have more porn than we've
00:59:48.880 ever had. You know, porn is at an all time high. Do we think we're healthier sexually because of it?
00:59:56.320 I don't think there's less rape today than 50 years ago.
00:59:59.760 Is there not?
01:00:00.240 Is there? I'm asking.
01:00:01.760 I actually don't know.
01:00:02.880 No, I don't know.
01:00:03.520 But I wonder though, I mean, I don't think, I don't, I don't imagine that.
01:00:07.680 Uh, I mean, there's has been a lot of, uh, the concept of sexual assault has evolved over time,
01:00:14.000 which has been a good thing because in the past men have been able to get away with things they
01:00:17.760 shouldn't have been able to get away with. I do wonder whether we have more sexual violence in 0.60
01:00:23.520 our society. I suspect not than, than 50 or a hundred years ago.
01:00:26.560 I mean, I'm, I, I'll be honest. I didn't come here saying in 1950, this study was done on rape
01:00:30.960 and we know how much, how much happened. Um, I mean, looking at it from my anecdotal position,
01:00:36.480 and I don't know that that research exists by the way that we, we have those sort of surveys or how
01:00:40.880 we would have that data.
01:00:41.840 And sorry, just to pause there. I'm not sure about in the US, but I certainly until
01:00:47.760 horrifically late on, there was a marital rape was legal in the UK. I'm not sure what,
01:00:53.920 when the year was, but it, it wasn't, it was comparatively late.
01:00:57.520 So that's what I meant when I was talking about the evolution.
01:00:59.920 I don't think it's a, it's logical to say, you know, we somehow are stopping marital
01:01:04.240 rape by allowing ubiquitous court porn. I don't think it, it makes sense there.
01:01:08.960 Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's what we're saying. Uh, anyway.
01:01:11.760 Okay. Well, I think ultimately the argument of your other guest, I would disagree with.
01:01:15.920 Understood.
01:01:16.560 I want to see her data, the data and, and sort of the, you know, the study I've seen on this,
01:01:20.800 it shows opposite that the more you allow sexual objectification of other people,
01:01:25.120 especially in it to an addictive degree, um, the more you're going to see at minimum
01:01:29.680 sexual dysfunction and at maximum sexual abuse.
01:01:33.840 It's been great to have this conversation about this. I know I mean it.
01:01:37.600 Yeah. Uh, it's been great for us coming off as, uh,
01:01:40.480 porn advocates and defenders, uh, on the internet. Uh, you know, this is what we tried to do with all
01:01:45.120 of these contentious issues. It's just to go, let's poke here. Let's prod there. Let's find out
01:01:49.680 what's going on here. And we talk to people from every position in order to kind of start to get to
01:01:55.040 the truth. So I really appreciate you kind of playing along and, and giving us your strong views
01:02:00.800 on it. And then people will come away from it thinking whatever they think in the last few
01:02:06.160 minutes before we wrap up and move on to our questions from our audience. Uh, I wanted to
01:02:11.600 think a little bit more positively about relations between men and women and the stuff that we started
01:02:16.480 out talking about, which is, um, one of the things that I, uh, my wife was saying to me, she was like,
01:02:22.720 you really sound very conservative every time you talk about family. And I was like,
01:02:27.680 A, that's true. B, what the hell? Liberals have families. Liberals have kids. 0.99
01:02:36.400 Well, interestingly, it's many, I think it's the wealthier, more educated, uh, even identifying as
01:02:43.040 liberal that operate by what you could call conservative values. They get married. Many
01:02:48.560 don't even cohabitate before marriage. They get married. They stay married. They have children.
01:02:53.600 So, you know, what's, what's called conservative values today are basically
01:02:58.320 healthy values of monogamy, fidelity, family life, things that should not belong to one political
01:03:05.440 group. That's my point, which is like, how the hell did this idea come about the family, having kids,
01:03:13.280 staying together, working through difficult things, as you were saying in a relationship, which every
01:03:17.680 couple has to do, right? Why did that become a political issue? And then why did it become a
01:03:23.680 one side issue? Well, it's because you see much more defense on the left of things like polyamory,
01:03:31.280 of things that are sexually deviant, that have been historically seen as very sexually deviant,
01:03:36.000 of things like, um, you know, cohabitation or, you know, marriage is not, marriage is just a piece of
01:03:42.560 paper. Marriage is not really, um, the sacred bond that requires life lifelong commitment. So you see,
01:03:50.080 I think, you know, from the political side, you see politically speaking more of that language,
01:03:55.760 more of those ideas on the left, despite some of those very people espousing those ideas themselves
01:04:01.520 being married and monogamous and all these things. It's like they're saying other people should experiment
01:04:06.320 with polyamory, you know, other children should have three dads and no mother, you know, other,
01:04:12.480 other families can have, be modern and operate this way, but mine is going to be more traditional.
01:04:18.000 This is my private choice over here and it's working for me, but other people, surely it will work to go
01:04:22.320 a different path. And I think that just shows, um, you know, a superiority complex that is, you know,
01:04:30.320 harmful. They're kind of exporting harmful ideas for others while secretly living the traditions
01:04:34.640 themselves. There's a guy called Rob Henderson who we've had on the show. I don't know if you're
01:04:38.480 familiar with him. He's, he came up with a concept of luxury beliefs. Yes. Um, and this is what you're
01:04:43.840 talking about. Yeah. The people who vote left and live right. Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. So how do we
01:04:49.520 move forward in the society that we are in? Because for me, uh, Louise and I have this conversation
01:04:55.200 often. She's like, if I was a billionaire, what I would do is I would pay families to post wholesome
01:05:00.320 content of them having breakfast with their little kids around the table. And actually,
01:05:04.880 until Nikolai got to an age where he was starting, you got to a point where you could recognize him in
01:05:09.520 the street. I used to post stuff with me and him all the time because I want people to see what it's
01:05:15.120 like to have, to have that, to have the joy that you and I have as parents. You know, it's amazing.
01:05:21.360 Um, what can we do to break the cycle? Because the cycle is bad. I don't like where we are as a
01:05:28.080 society. And the fact that it's become a political football, that's crazy to me. Yeah. That's crazy.
01:05:35.520 I agree. It's crazy. I like her idea, you know, encourage people to post positive pictures.
01:05:40.800 Even more meaningfully though, I would say we should encourage people to get married and stay married
01:05:46.800 because it's hard to have that happy life with your child when you're a single mom struggling or
01:05:52.800 you're a single dad struggling or whatever it is. You know, you're, the children fare best and people
01:05:59.120 fare best in lifelong committed marriages. They're economically better off. Their, uh, health is better.
01:06:06.480 The children's outcomes are better on, on every level, you know, in every category. So how do we
01:06:12.320 as a society encourage marriage? Well, first of all, we can't constantly define it away, it out of
01:06:17.440 existence. Marriage is whatever two, three, four consenting and results want it to be. Marriage is
01:06:22.240 one man and one woman who can bring life into the world. You know, I mean, they may not be able to in
01:06:27.920 the end, but that's the design of how life brings into the world, takes a father and takes a mother.
01:06:32.000 And that's the optimal way for a child to be raised who are committed to each other publicly for life.
01:06:37.440 And that's what we should be celebrating. I think, you know, public policy, you could do,
01:06:42.000 you know, cash benefits for married couples who have kids, you know, give them, give them money
01:06:47.840 to encourage, you know, not just a tax benefit, a tax credit, but you, you should get, you know,
01:06:52.400 there are some policies actually right now about giving actual, you know, cash payments to families
01:06:56.400 that have kids. Um, and I think that could be a, you got a billion bucks, a billion dollars. That could
01:07:01.440 be a positive way to encourage them to, um, to build up families. Yeah. I love what Dolly Parton does 1.00
01:07:08.320 where if she's got a foundation where if you sign up and you've got a kid, I think under the age of,
01:07:14.160 uh, nine, then she will send you a book a month. Very sweet. Yeah. For, so you can read with your
01:07:21.600 kid completely free, completely free, which to me, what a beautiful thing. The other thing I think we
01:07:26.720 need to do is, um, ban abortion. It's kind of a no, it's a no brainer. I mean, don't kill innocent
01:07:32.080 people. These are children. Uh, when Roe v Wade was overruled and some of these states had trigger laws to
01:07:38.160 enact abortion bans right now that's being all contested. It's a big fight, but there were all
01:07:43.360 of these, um, people complaining online about how now this is going to change my dating habits.
01:07:48.240 You know, now, now if I can't access abortion, maybe I'm not going to sleep with the guy on the
01:07:52.800 first date, or maybe I'm, uh, you know, not going to, um, see, you know, sex as something as casual.
01:07:58.800 Basically I might get pregnant and I might not be able to have an abortion. Now this is a big
01:08:02.640 responsibility I'll have. So abortion has always been the back door contraceptive in our society. 0.96
01:08:08.960 That's how it's used. Eliminate that and say, you can't kill children and you can't have this
01:08:13.840 back door contraceptive. We need to change our sexual behavior. If we can change our sexual behavior, 0.92
01:08:18.720 uh, to see other people with respect instead of a sexual objects to put sex back into lifelong
01:08:25.200 committed relationship into marriage, you know, not make premarital sex normal or glorified,
01:08:32.000 you know, friends is making it fun and glamorized, you know, in a TV show, you know,
01:08:36.800 cut that, cut that out. And instead say, sex is amazing. It's designed for lifelong love.
01:08:41.760 Let's celebrate that instead. You're going to do a lot for male female relationships to be healthier 1.00
01:08:46.800 and you're going to make marriage and families stronger by, by many, many, many degrees.
01:08:53.440 All right. Well, as you know, our last question is always the same, which is what's the one thing
01:08:57.280 we're not talking about that we should be as a society. And you can't say abortion
01:09:00.720 because we've talked about it quite a lot now. Yeah. Um, we talked about some very important
01:09:05.440 things. I mean, one thing we didn't talk about, it is talked about, so I'm not going to say it's not
01:09:09.600 being talked about at all today, but the role of, I think having a purpose outside of yourself,
01:09:15.760 particularly of faith, the couples that stay married the longest, the couples that, um, you know,
01:09:22.560 have the lowest rates of divorce are couples that have that purpose outside of themselves. They,
01:09:28.160 many of them are, they're practicing their, their religious devotion. You know,
01:09:31.360 they're practicing a faith. They're going to, you know, church, or they're going to a religious
01:09:35.520 service once a week. They're doing that as part of a family life. There, there's something bigger
01:09:39.280 holding them together than just a promise they made to each other. It's a, there's a promise they
01:09:42.960 made to God. And I do think that, you know, we kind of tend to say there's secular over here and
01:09:47.440 there's religious over here. Let's keep them apart. When really, I think we're made to be 1.00
01:09:51.600 religious as human beings. We're made to be, you can say spiritual, if you don't like the word
01:09:54.720 religious, we're made to have, want to have a connection with our creator. And so I think we
01:09:59.200 should be, we should be remembering that the way that that happens best, according to the data,
01:10:05.040 according to, you know, the research is when we recognize that there is a third party in a marriage,
01:10:12.000 that it's not just a commitment and promise I made to someone else, but that this is before God,
01:10:16.160 and of course the community, and that we need both God and the community for a strong marriage.
01:10:21.680 Perfect. All right. Thank you so much. Head on over to Locals,
01:10:24.640 where we ask your questions and continue the conversation.
01:10:28.640 Yeah. What's not being talked about enough is that contraception is bad. 0.95
01:10:32.400 What are we talking about here? We're talking about condoms, the coil, the pill?
01:10:35.600 We're talking about all of it. Even condoms?
01:10:38.640 All of it. Yeah. Okay. Because any kind of...
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