TRIGGERnometry - ＂Social Distancing is Impossible in Schools＂ - Katharine Birbalsingh

00:00:00.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is the

00:00:11.060 show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our brilliant guest

00:00:17.220 and returning guest this week is the headmistress of the michaela school in london katherine burblesing

00:00:22.760 welcome back to trigonometry hi thanks for having me oh thanks for coming on as i was just saying

00:00:27.720 to you before we started you're a busy woman at the moment in demand you were a news night last 0.99

00:00:32.260 night you're being interviewed and as you said you're trying to set people straight about all

00:00:36.220 the nonsense that some people are talking when it comes to education uh so what is it that people

00:00:41.560 are getting wrong in view of the lockdown and what do people misunderstand one of the things that

00:00:46.160 francis and i really wanted to talk to you about is this mythical idea that somehow it's possible

00:00:51.000 to have social distancing in schools and anyone i think who remembers being under the age of 18

00:00:56.560 realizes that that's just never going to happen is that broadly your view yeah well i mean that's

00:01:02.340 that's what's strange it's as if no one has ever been under the age of 18 so they don't seem to

00:01:06.780 remember um social distancing is impossible as far as i can see now obviously if you have 25

00:01:14.360 percent of the school there that might be possible so when they talk about a phased return uh let's

00:01:20.480 say they decide to just have the year 10s in and the uh year 12s because those are the year groups

00:01:26.340 that will be going through to exams next year, you could do it.

00:01:30.260 And I say you could do it.

00:01:32.140 There will be difficulty.

00:01:34.080 For one, you have to rejig the entire timetable.

00:01:38.060 And people who don't work in schools, and this isn't anyone's fault

00:01:40.980 because they don't work in schools, they don't know that a timetable,

00:01:45.260 every year when the new timetable for the next year is created,

00:01:48.900 it takes three, four, five, even six weeks for it to appear.

00:01:53.860 and the timetable guy is like you know a slightly weird guy maybe a bit of a nerd he likes his

00:01:59.960 numbers and all that and he goes away into a room and locks himself away for the days on end

00:02:06.080 and then eventually emerges with the timetable that would be me if i was employed in a school

00:02:12.400 i'd be the nerd to go yeah so the thing is the idea of oh it's all right you just collapse

00:02:17.860 classes oh you know you just throw in a bit of this throw in a bit of that it'll be fine

00:02:23.260 I mean it's not so easy now I'm not saying it's not impossible and uh at Michaela obviously we're

00:02:28.560 all about being excellent and so on so you know we'll do whatever whatever is required

00:02:33.500 but from a national point of view we need to recognize that not all schools will be in a

00:02:38.040 position to be able to do that um and the so and then who are you letting back in are you only

00:02:44.380 letting those children back in and everybody else has to stay at home um or are you letting everybody

00:02:49.340 back in and if you're letting everybody back in social distancing is impossible um i mean people

00:02:54.340 start posting things about you know chinese children wearing hats that are a meter long

00:02:59.360 apart from each other have you been to the schools in china and have you been to the schools in

00:03:05.120 england because they're really different places you know i'm saying this as the headmistress of

00:03:10.540 the strictest school in britain you know we get over 600 visitors a year and they're mainly teachers

00:03:15.740 And they cannot believe the order and the wonderful behavior and so on.

00:03:20.680 And to a certain extent, if we had, say, 50 percent of kids, 40 percent, 30 percent, we would be able to do it.

00:03:27.300 But we have very narrow corridors.

00:03:29.040 We're not the only school in the country that has corridors that are maybe just over a meter wide.

00:03:33.460 The children are necessarily touching each other when they're passing.

00:03:36.260 But not only that, kids are kids.

00:03:38.960 They run up to each other.

00:03:39.980 They hug each other.

00:03:40.880 They do birthday treats.

00:03:44.660 i mean i i was on my walk uh the other day and um i ran into one of them i've been to a couple

00:03:53.640 of them actually separately and one of them uh had these blue gloves on and she was so excited

00:03:58.400 to see me she came running up to me went to give me a big hug so she was wearing the gloves was 1.00

00:04:03.100 aware of this idea of of you know you need to you need to protect yourself but then saw me

00:04:08.520 and wanted to give me a hug so and because they're kids they don't kind of realize um another boy who

00:04:15.240 ran into he he i dropped my the cover of my um my water bottle he immediately went and picked it up

00:04:21.640 and gave it to me and i was going no no no now you that's two kids imagine 800 900 1500 children

00:04:31.040 in a school with narrow corridors in classrooms the classrooms are only big enough to sit 30

00:04:36.540 kids right next to each other when they come up out of their chairs to move out of the classroom

00:04:41.260 well they're necessarily touching each other we're handing out paper books pens all of the time

00:04:46.800 so i think sadly there are a lot of people making um pronouncements about what is possible in school

00:04:53.780 when they don't actually work in school so that's one thing um but i do take the point so people

00:04:59.700 then think because i've said social distancing is impossible in schools therefore i'm saying

00:05:04.160 we shouldn't go back to school. I am not of the opinion that we shouldn't go back to school for

00:05:08.260 some 10 months. That would be crazy. In fact, I don't hold an opinion at all about when we should

00:05:14.040 go back. And the reason I don't hold that opinion is because I feel I don't really know. I'm not a

00:05:20.160 virologist. I'm not an economist. I'm not an expert at these things. So I'm waiting for the experts

00:05:25.320 to tell us when they think is the right time for us to go back. And I will do as told. And I know

00:05:31.680 some people in the education world get very angry when they hear that and they think no

00:05:35.360 we should all refuse to go back and i sort of think well what are we going to refuse to go

00:05:40.440 back forever i mean i i don't at some point we've got to go back and at some point we need to try

00:05:45.400 and make it work uh how that happens i don't know and i'm not saying what the right way is

00:05:50.380 but i am saying we need to trust the people who are making these decisions and i think that's

00:05:55.420 the difficulty that sometimes people have especially in education because a lot of people

00:05:59.700 in education are left-leaning and the government, of course, is right-leaning. So they feel that

00:06:04.680 they can't trust the government to make the right decisions for them. My opinion on leadership is

00:06:12.280 that, you know, in my own school, for instance, I ask the staff to trust me all the time with

00:06:17.260 decisions that I make. It's the only way anything works. Any organization only works when you trust

00:06:22.500 the leader and go with the leader. If we're all backbiting and fighting all the time and accusing

00:06:27.820 the government of doing x y and z then we're just going to blow up i think um so so yeah my position

00:06:34.500 is social distancing is impossible but i do recognize that we need to go back to school at

00:06:39.740 some point whenever that is and you know i i genuinely hope it's sooner rather than later

00:06:44.780 because i miss the kids i miss the staff i miss the normal way of doing things you know i love

00:06:51.720 school so obviously i would prefer to go back but obviously i don't want to put people's lives in

00:06:55.920 danger um you know some people as well have said uh the people who are very anti-lockdown you know

00:07:01.820 they come out with information saying well it's it's there are studies that are showing that um

00:07:06.480 children don't pass it on as much um uh i don't know how true that is but certainly there are

00:07:12.040 some people who are saying that um you know and the other the other big actually the people who

00:07:17.560 are wanting schools to open up uh soon the big thing that they uh don't take into account is

00:07:23.480 that they say, children don't really pass it on to each other,

00:07:25.700 so it's okay, but they're not giving any thought to the teachers.

00:07:28.740 And I understand the hurt that teachers feel when they hear that,

00:07:32.600 because they sort of think, well, sorry, do we not count?

00:07:35.600 Do our lives not matter?

00:07:38.120 And there is, I think, a tendency in the country, sadly,

00:07:45.440 this kind of teacher bashing that I've seen,

00:07:48.100 which uh is not nice where uh they there's no sense of understanding that teachers are

00:07:56.120 are currently working for instance or doing what they can for the children in their care 1.00

00:08:00.120 and um this sense that you teachers get back to work you're just a bunch of lazy idiots um 0.99

00:08:07.200 i i i have a problem with that and and of course there are lazy teachers i mean you know i'd be 0.99

00:08:12.880 the first person to say that but there are also some really hard-working teachers out there who

00:08:17.720 We're giving their all at the moment.

00:08:19.340 Their whole Easter holiday they'll have spent working for the kids.

00:08:22.260 I know my own staff are 100% committed.

00:08:25.540 Every child at our school gets a phone call every week.

00:08:29.660 We're sending them video lessons.

00:08:31.380 We're doing Zoom lessons.

00:08:32.420 We're doing all sorts of things for the kids.

00:08:35.340 So it's not really fair when people then start accusing teachers of being lazy,

00:08:40.060 when in fact, you know, some of them are just genuinely concerned.

00:08:44.300 They're saying, well, wait a minute.

00:08:45.360 is my life going to be in danger if I'm back in school?

00:08:48.240 And I don't think there's anything unreasonable.

00:08:49.980 Well, there you go.

00:08:50.640 Teachers' lives matter, guys.

00:08:54.320 Yeah.

00:08:55.200 Well, I do feel that some people kind of don't think they do.

00:08:59.400 Genuinely, I'm shocked by some of the things that I hear people saying about teachers.

00:09:04.080 Now, there is some truth in that, you know, I also hear on Twitter,

00:09:10.520 this is when I say I hear, I'm talking about Twitter,

00:09:12.020 I hear some people complaining and saying, look, my child's school has gone dark.

00:09:16.200 We haven't heard anything from them.

00:09:17.860 And actually, parents listening should think to themselves, this is a good time to judge

00:09:22.960 your school, actually.

00:09:24.260 Have you been hearing much from your school?

00:09:26.460 Have you been getting lots of work?

00:09:28.080 Do you feel supported?

00:09:29.340 Because if you don't, then actually, perhaps it's not a very good school.

00:09:34.000 And there are good schools and there are bad schools.

00:09:37.080 And that is something I know the education system is not willing to recognize.

00:09:41.260 they like to say that all schools are brilliant and all teachers are brilliant and of course

00:09:44.880 as in any profession there are you know there are good lawyers and there are bad lawyers there

00:09:49.560 are good dentists and bad dentists you know it's the same thing in teaching um and and i and i think

00:09:54.660 everyone would do well to remember that both the educationalists and the non-educationalists when

00:09:58.880 making these judgments of teachers uh because there are some who are giving their all and um

00:10:04.280 and and haven't had a moment you know and then there are others who who perhaps aren't doing

00:10:08.880 anything. So, you know, it's just about understanding that nuance. And Catherine,

00:10:13.820 one of the things that I really want to discuss with you is what effect is this having on the

00:10:19.540 lowest, uh, the children who come from the poorest backgrounds, the children who desperately need

00:10:25.180 that structure in school, the kids who school is really a safe haven for them. They must be

00:10:30.580 really struggling with this. Yeah. Yeah. Well now we need to remember that schools are not closed,

00:10:35.940 right they are open to vulnerable kids who need that now so those children ought to have some

00:10:44.820 kind of check-in and something that's happening and they're either turning up to school or or

00:10:48.420 teachers are involved in looking in making sure they're okay and they're obviously a minority of

00:10:54.280 children um the ones that uh we aren't talking about so much are the ones who aren't doing any

00:11:03.900 work. And some of the listeners might think, oh, that would have been me. I wouldn't have done

00:11:10.400 anything. And what we find at school is that the children, there are some children who will do lots,

00:11:17.200 lots of working harder than ever before, because they've got families at home who are very

00:11:21.000 supportive and very keen on them doing well. And then there are others who are not doing as much.

00:11:25.640 That's why we do the phone call thing. We do a phone call with the child to try and keep them

00:11:29.860 on task and engaged in what's going on. Sometimes families can't speak English. Sometimes families

00:11:35.540 have five or six children. There's no way that they're going to be looking after their learning.

00:11:39.840 Other families don't engage in education. They don't believe in it. They don't think that it's

00:11:44.220 going to change their child's life. So they're not too bothered. Oh, well, who cares about your

00:11:48.280 history? Who cares about your science? It doesn't matter. In fact, perhaps the house is so chaotic

00:11:54.280 that parent on their own with five children is thinking,

00:11:59.340 great, you've got a phone, you can just sit there on Snapchat,

00:12:02.300 you can sit there on Instagram, and so on.

00:12:04.240 And that's a key point, again, that people are misunderstanding.

00:12:07.660 There is this whole, well, this kind of made-up situation.

00:12:13.800 You know, I say made-up because I do feel it's invented

00:12:16.560 of all of the poor children out there who cannot access learning

00:12:21.540 because all the learning is happening online.

00:12:23.900 and if they don't have a phone or a tablet then they're not able to access it uh i think you'll

00:12:28.860 find that the vast majority of people do have phones or tablet they have something to be able

00:12:34.360 to access um and that in fact it's the phone or the tablet that's preventing them from working

00:12:40.840 so on the one hand we want them to have the tablet to be able to get the video lesson or the zoom

00:12:46.920 lesson on the other hand that's the thing that makes it so that they're on snapchat and instagram

00:12:51.960 all the time so that they're cutting out pictures of themselves and putting them on a zoom lesson

00:12:55.580 so it makes it look like they're there or they are sending emails in from their parents email

00:13:01.660 pretending that they're the parent to say oh he's very ill at the moment he can't do his work

00:13:05.920 you can imagine all the tricks that they're you know and um teachers have been thrown into this

00:13:12.620 situation you know they don't necessarily i mean imagine there's lots of teachers who are over the

00:13:17.380 age or my age and older they're not super experts at computers and online learning and zooming and

00:13:23.900 so on so they have to learn all of that really quickly and then they're having to create they've

00:13:29.160 got google classroom they've got video lessons they've got all this stuff they're trying to get

00:13:32.300 their heads around and they're managing it um but the kids are smarter than we are come on

00:13:37.480 they know this stuff inside out and so if they don't have a parent at home who's on them and

00:13:45.620 who's saying, come on now, what's the work today? What's been said? If that's not happening,

00:13:50.420 then they're going to get away with it. And so I do feel that there's this kind of

00:13:57.920 work signaling that's going on. You know how we talk about virtue signaling? Well,

00:14:01.620 I think that there's a work signaling that goes on. So schools might be saying, oh, I'm doing all

00:14:06.600 these Zoom lessons. We're doing this. We're doing that. But how many children are actually working?

00:14:10.480 That's what every leader in education needs to be asking themselves right now. How many children

00:14:14.800 in your school are working so we've got this whole spreadsheet which teachers are filling out

00:14:18.520 constantly every week with and the phone call is checking the online learning to see what they've

00:14:24.060 done and we're getting photos in of work that they've done and then on the spreadsheet you

00:14:29.360 know we've got color codes and all sorts of things so that so that the e-tutor we call them who rings

00:14:34.540 is able to see in an instant whether that child is doing what we're asking them to do they're doing

00:14:40.300 half of what they're being asked to do or whether they're doing nothing and then that conversation

00:14:44.260 can be had um if on the other hand you're just doing zoom lessons and children are just you know

00:14:49.940 they're logging on or they're not logging on and who knows and nobody's tracking that

00:14:55.540 then I think what's happening is a lot of work signaling going on but the work isn't actually

00:15:00.540 being done um and I mean that's nobody's fault I'm not blaming schools for that this is all brand

00:15:05.880 new uh and it's very hard and and over time with the Michaela teachers you know we've been learning

00:15:11.800 we started doing one thing then we did a bit different you know and we have our zoom meetings

00:15:16.280 and we we figure out what's best to get the most children working most of the time you know but um

00:15:22.440 but this is hard and i think that we will find at the end of this that that i think schools will

00:15:29.660 find that far fewer children uh did the work than perhaps they thought they were they were doing

00:15:34.060 and that's where when we talk about disadvantaged kids you know we're not just talking about the

00:15:39.260 ones with you know really difficult parents who you know social services need to be involved with

00:15:44.540 which is what you know we were talking about earlier i'm just talking about kids whose parents

00:15:49.520 aren't really engaged in education and whose parents aren't going to make them do the work

00:15:53.900 uh and because they're outside of school they're outside of that environment where all the children

00:15:59.400 are working they're not as committed as they would have been otherwise and what are going to be what

00:16:03.760 are going to be do you think the long-term implications of that that we're going to have

00:16:07.460 these kids, a lot of them from the very poorest sections of society, disenfranchised, not

00:16:13.560 connecting, not learning. I mean, it's going to create a massive gap between rich and poor,

00:16:19.620 isn't it? Yeah. I don't know. It'll be interesting. I mean, I don't know. I mean,

00:16:25.340 certainly on Newsnight, the various people they were interviewing before we went on live

00:16:32.180 uh we're sort of saying this is the end of the world oh my goodness this gap that's going to

00:16:37.940 be created what are we ever going to do and and i mean look obviously i'm worried about those kids

00:16:43.760 and i am uh and we're doing everything we can at our school to keep those kids on task

00:16:49.580 and we're already thinking about well from september what can we do to try and catch them

00:16:54.620 up as much as we can when we're thinking about the year 10s or the year 12s well the year 12s

00:16:59.920 i'm not so worried about actually they're on task they're okay it's the year 10s i worry more about

00:17:04.780 there's more of them who are who are slipping and um and we then think okay well with regard to the

00:17:09.800 gcse how can we fix it so that they are prepared as well as possible for that gcse i mean so

00:17:16.220 these are issues um but sorry let me jump in there do you think those exams that you're talking about

00:17:23.260 gcse's a levels are they actually going to go ahead as normal do you think i i don't i can't

00:17:29.000 imagine that they wouldn't uh they have they've already had one year where the children haven't

00:17:33.320 had exams i mean i suspect the grade boundaries will drop massively um but i don't see any reason

00:17:39.480 why they wouldn't have the exams um you know uh yeah the grade boundaries will drop and less will

00:17:45.940 be expected of the kids and that is ultimately it i mean so when i do feel people are catastrophizing

00:17:52.320 a bit and sort of saying oh my goodness what's gonna happen to these children and i mean it is

00:17:58.620 i mean remember i'm the strictest headmistress of britain so obviously you like that brand

00:18:03.120 you take great pleasure in it honestly i'm really into school and i'm really i'm a great believer

00:18:09.940 in education and i want the children to get the best possible learning and i'm all about that

00:18:14.800 um but i also recognize that we this is a pandemic you know this has never happened before uh we want

00:18:21.700 as many people to live as possible that is more important than whether or not they've read a

00:18:27.180 Shakespeare play. And I mean, look, some people might say, Oh my goodness,

00:18:31.120 Catherine Derval Singh saying it doesn't matter if they haven't read a

00:18:33.220 Shakespeare play. I'm not saying it doesn't matter,

00:18:35.580 but at the end of the day we have to get through this.

00:18:39.000 And so when we come out the other side,

00:18:40.460 if we were to go back in the summer term, when I say summer term,

00:18:43.320 I mean after May half term at some point before the summer,

00:18:46.840 I think things can be salvaged.

00:18:48.640 I don't think it's the end of the world and I think we'll be okay.

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00:20:47.140 that. There are children who miss learning for all sorts of reasons. You know, they end up in

00:20:54.280 hospital for six months because of something. They move away for six months. They go to some

00:20:59.220 terrible school. I mean, what we all need to realize is that there are lots of children in

00:21:03.900 the country in normal times who don't really access the best education. There are lots of

00:21:08.980 schools that don't give them a good education so you know i i don't like the um the juxtaposition

00:21:17.560 that we've got at the moment between as it was before the perfect scenario with brilliant schools

00:21:22.540 that were always developing you know wonderful children who always worked hard and and the

00:21:27.620 disadvantaged came up and always were able to compete for the best jobs and now because we've

00:21:32.980 had a few weeks off school everything is destroyed i mean it's more complex than that yeah it is more

00:21:39.860 complex now of course it is but captain how long do you think we realistically we can continue with

00:21:46.180 the lockdown as it is now where you know there is it's okay before we start to get to a point where

00:21:53.480 actually it starts to have a very serious deleterious long-term impact on on the kids and

00:21:58.740 actually on the teachers on the schools and on society going forward as well as a result is how

00:22:03.980 long can we how much more can we take yeah i have to be honest you say it's okay at the moment i

00:22:09.260 actually have no idea i mean i'm not an economist i have i have no idea what kind of effect this is

00:22:14.520 going to have on the economy and also what kind of effect it's going to have on people's souls

00:22:19.280 you know i think about our families and families who whose jobs will be in jeopardy um you know we

00:22:26.320 have a lot of families uh there'll be families who who were single moms who are cleaners well

00:22:32.280 they'll have just been fired by the various people that they clean for how are they going

00:22:36.600 to support their families you know like i they're they're i really worry about our families from that

00:22:42.280 perspective um and i do think that teachers don't do enough worrying for those people what i mean

00:22:48.240 is when the teachers are saying we're not going back until it's safe and that's that i i think

00:22:53.080 that's unreasonable because that means you're not giving enough thought to those people whose

00:22:58.000 salaries are not secure who's and it's not just the salary you know you might say oh but you're

00:23:02.940 getting some money it's if you're running a little business and you were in the middle of growing it

00:23:07.740 and now boom it's just stopped I don't know what kind of effect that's going to have on you and on

00:23:11.700 your family and I'm not an economist I'm also not a virologist so I don't know about the risks that

00:23:17.640 we're taking when we go back to school but I mean from an education point of view in terms of actually

00:23:22.500 the schools the education system and also the learning of the kids how much longer can we have

00:23:27.960 a situation where we are in the position that we're in before it starts to actually cause

00:23:33.220 problems I mean it sounds like you you feel like right now it's not the end of the world it's not

00:23:37.640 ideal but it's not the end of the world but how long until it starts to become actually a problem

00:23:42.240 well I don't want to say it's not a problem it is a problem um I mean look if they're not in school

00:23:51.280 they're not learning as much um now i do think lower down you know when it comes to children

00:23:57.220 at four and five and so on if they're not learning how to read the impact is greater

00:24:01.280 uh i'm at secondary school um if the children don't learn that chunk of history or that chunk

00:24:08.120 of science well they don't learn that chunk of history or that chunk of science i mean

00:24:13.300 uh i mean you could go on for a very long time like this you know they'll be okay i mean you

00:24:21.060 know when people say you know i'm considering myself to be a traditionalist and then they're

00:24:27.240 the people who i argue with who are considered to be the progressives and when the progressives

00:24:30.820 say things like well you can learn so much from life and you know you don't necessarily need to

00:24:35.440 read a shakespeare play well it's sort of true in the sense that you know you're not going to die

00:24:41.620 if you haven't read shakespeare you're going to be okay i don't think your life is going to be as

00:24:45.940 interesting. I think it would be a shame if you've never read Shakespeare. And so they are missing

00:24:51.420 out on certain bits of learning, but they'll still learn when they come back. And what I would stress

00:24:57.460 is that we mustn't assume that those children were all learning loads before. The children who

00:25:04.460 come to school, the children who are not doing any work right now, their schools were always

00:25:10.800 in a bit of a fight with them to get them to work, right? And depending on what kind of school you

00:25:15.620 went to, if you went to a really good school, then they got you working. But if you went to a school

00:25:20.400 that wasn't so great, those kids were never doing any work anyway. So, you know, they didn't read

00:25:26.240 Shakespeare plays before. They didn't know much about history before. It's one of the things that

00:25:30.760 I campaign about all the time, which is that we need to make education better. When people say,

00:25:36.240 what are we going to do to fix this situation? The best thing, I mean, Wilshaw, Michael Wilshaw

00:25:41.760 came out yesterday on Newsnight saying that what we need to do is have Saturday classes and holiday

00:25:47.140 classes and the kids can catch up then. And I genuinely thought, have you forgotten what it's

00:25:51.600 like to be in school, Mr. Wiltshire? What are you talking about? I mean, look, let's just assume

00:25:56.840 that all the teachers are willing to do that in the first place. Now, that's going to be difficult

00:26:00.540 anyway, but let's assume that they're all willing to come in on Saturdays and the holidays and so

00:26:04.040 on and do that. And the reason why they might not, I don't think it's unreasonable for them not to be

00:26:07.960 keen on that because they've been working through their Easter holidays. They'll be working through

00:26:11.140 they may have term, they aren't working right now. So I don't think it would be unreasonable for them

00:26:15.600 to say, wait a minute, I've got my own family. How am I going to have my own children looked

00:26:19.120 after on a Saturday when I'm coming in and so on? I don't think that's unreasonable. But let's say

00:26:22.840 they're all in there and they're willing to work. The kids who didn't do their work during lockdown

00:26:28.840 are the same kids who won't show up that Saturday morning. They're not suddenly going to get

00:26:34.160 inspired and say, I'm going to give up my Saturday and go in and work because I didn't do enough work

00:26:38.760 during lockdown and their parents are not going to make them go in. So that is an absurd suggestion.

00:26:44.700 I don't understand how it could ever be made. The fact is that all we can do when we go back

00:26:49.460 to school is present them with excellent learning, teaching, excellent behavior in the school. That's

00:26:56.720 what we need. Excellent behavior will allow you to social distance as much as you can because

00:27:01.340 what the kids aren't going to do is run around whacking each other deliberately, you know,

00:27:06.100 in order to cause chaos because they're used to behaving themselves um that that's the behavior

00:27:11.020 then there's the idea of well how do you teach them obviously you want to teach them the best

00:27:15.040 way possible and i'm a real traditionalist i believe the best way possible is to be at the

00:27:20.180 front of the class leading the learning and imparting knowledge that's what we should be

00:27:24.600 doing as teachers and more than ever i think uh we're going to have to do that when we get back

00:27:29.680 to school and and i suspect lots of teachers across the country will be doing that but there's

00:27:34.500 no outside fix. I know the government is under a lot of pressure to look like they're fixing. So

00:27:41.540 what we'll do is we'll buy tablets. We'll buy tablets for all the disadvantaged children and

00:27:45.460 give them tablets and then everything will be all right. No, it won't because they're going to use

00:27:48.640 those tablets to get on Snapchat. So that is not a solution. Or they say, I know what we need to do.

00:27:54.460 Let's get them in on Saturdays and on the holidays. And then there's an argument between

00:27:58.320 those who think teachers are lazy. Ah, they just don't want to teach on Saturdays. And then there's

00:28:02.300 the ones saying no no no we've got to get them in on Saturdays well is anybody showing up is my

00:28:06.600 point you know if the kids aren't there then there's no point in having this conversation

00:28:09.900 so it's it is complex it is difficult there is no particular solution apart from really good

00:28:17.340 teaching when we come back really good thinking you know any of the leaders school leaders who

00:28:22.420 are listening to this need to be thinking and I'm sure they are already they they need to be

00:28:26.680 thinking how are we going to manage this when we get back to school to get the most that we can

00:28:32.440 out of the kids and that is about giving them excellent behavior systems and excellent teaching

00:28:37.780 um and then the children will be able to deliver i mean the the percentages they were coming out

00:28:43.080 with last night on news night was that a 50 of children in the country are not doing work at

00:28:47.920 home you know and that's what they know so if they know that 50 aren't doing it that means far more

00:28:53.040 than 50% are doing it now I suspect at the better schools I mean we find over 80% of our kids are

00:28:58.060 doing the work and we know it so and and we know it for certain you know I I'm not we're not being

00:29:03.100 fooled and that's because we've thought about how they're going to fool us and we've got our

00:29:06.340 spreadsheet we've got our phone calls and we've got everything happening so we know um but it's

00:29:11.100 true that those ones who are not working uh I'm concerned about and uh it is a genuine worry uh

00:29:18.200 having said that year sevens and eights I do think they'll catch up the ones the big ones to worry

00:29:22.540 about the year 10s and the year 12s. Those are the big ones. And then the little ones down on the

00:29:26.760 other end, who I don't teach because I'm at secondary, but those four and five-year-olds,

00:29:30.740 six-year-olds who are learning how to read, learning how to write, that will have a big

00:29:35.160 impact on them. But, you know, sometimes a kid ends up in hospital for six months and he misses

00:29:41.920 school. That's what life is. You just have to pick up, pick yourself up and keep on going, you know?

00:29:47.720 And Catherine, what do you think are going to be the long-term implications of the fact that we're

00:29:51.480 not having A-levels this year. We're not having GCSEs. All these exams have been scrapped. These

00:29:57.220 exams that kids have worked really hard for. Do you think that's going to have a long-term impact

00:30:02.580 on these children, especially the children who, again, come from poorer backgrounds? It's all 1.00

00:30:08.420 right if you go to an exclusive private school where you've got somebody who's going to be

00:30:12.840 fighting your corner when it comes to university. Yeah, no, that's absolutely true. In fact,

00:30:20.440 you know it's really interesting from my perspective the thing that they've lost out on

00:30:25.020 is that build up and preparation towards a set of exams uh it really it teaches you so much about

00:30:31.740 yourself about your working habits about how to learn what you're good at in terms of you know

00:30:36.800 flashcards work for me or reciting works you know that sort of thing you learn how you the things

00:30:43.540 that you like best when learning um you learn how to knuckle down and how to ignore all the

00:30:49.120 distractions and how how to make best use of your time how to be efficient you learn how to go to

00:30:54.980 that revision session that's going on even though it's not mandatory you know how to debug you learn

00:31:00.180 how to buy into your life and how to own your life you know uh it's it's it's wonderful i mean

00:31:05.500 people often in teaching don't like exams you know not all of us teachers are like that um but

00:31:11.060 there are there are there are some teachers who are very critical of exams they feel it puts too

00:31:14.680 much pressure on children and so on. I really believe in exams for all of the skills that

00:31:22.440 they teach you in the run-up to those exams. And so these children haven't had that. And

00:31:28.700 I mean, at least the year 13s had it at GCSE. So there is that. I'm particularly concerned

00:31:36.860 about the year 11s who haven't had that GCSE experience. So when they then go on to do other

00:31:42.140 exams whether that's b-tech or a level and so on later that'll be the first time that they're

00:31:46.920 really coming across i mean i know they had their sats when they were in year six but that's

00:31:50.600 ages ago they don't really remember that so they they've lost out on a whole load of skills there

00:31:56.060 which um which is a shame uh and actually i'm not sure it matters whether you're poor or rich

00:32:01.700 in that in that situation i think everybody's in a similar situation um and you know it's also

00:32:07.340 interesting because uh you know i have a friend she works at a private one of the top private

00:32:11.420 girls schools uh and you know it's highly selective and uh she was saying well you know

00:32:16.680 they turn up to her zoo lessons and so on but she she's aware that they're on various apps when

00:32:22.320 she's talking to them and you know they're up to nonsense because they're kids you know the key

00:32:28.500 thing if you take one thing away from this interview it's for everyone to remember they

00:32:32.960 are kids i feel like everyone it's forgotten what kids are like you know think back to what

00:32:38.540 you were like as a child exemplary catherine i mean look they're lovely i love children that's

00:32:47.220 why i'm a teacher i love them but come on they're naughty and they try and get away with stuff

00:32:52.960 and the the further the distance to a school is from the child the less opportunity we have to

00:32:59.960 make sure that they're on that right track and um i said it at the beginning actually when to all my

00:33:04.800 teachers i said to them right well we've got 98 of them you know doing all the work that we want

00:33:10.780 this is going to it's going to curtail they're gonna they're gonna start dropping off as time

00:33:15.780 goes on there's something gonna start going yeah okay yeah miss rang but she's just gonna ring

00:33:20.540 again next week and oh actually it doesn't matter so much anymore and so and of course that's

00:33:26.520 exactly what's happened because they're children you know um you know the divide will it will

00:33:33.880 exacerbate that divide but that's just that's life you know we just need to work hard when we get back

00:33:39.560 hi guys and welcome to my bedroom or as it's otherwise called palacio orgasmo

00:33:48.160 now this is a short video on behalf of the angel comedy club now you may not be aware but there is

00:33:54.400 something on the planet right now called the corona virus which is putting a little bit of

00:33:59.800 a spanner into the works of a lot of people, especially comedy clubs, in particular Angel

00:34:05.100 Comedy Club, which is where we film our show. And Angel has been so supportive to us. They've been

00:34:09.780 absolutely brilliant. And they now need your help because they can't have any shows. They can't run

00:34:16.520 a bar. But the problem is they still have to pay rent. So if you think a comedy club which puts on

00:34:23.400 acts like Stuart Lee, Eddie Izzard, Maria Bamford for a fiver and lets us film for free is something

00:34:29.380 that should exist in the world, I personally think it should, then all you have to do is give a little

00:34:34.960 bit of money to the patron or maybe become a patron yourself or put in a little bit of money

00:34:41.160 to the PayPal account. I will have links. There'll be links at the bottom in order for you to do that.

00:34:47.060 Now, if you can't do that, no worries at all. We completely understand. But hopefully you'll be

00:34:52.000 able to maybe pop down to Angel one day to see a live show from us or a whole host of other

00:34:56.180 fabulous comedians. Stay safe and take care.

00:34:59.380 and do you think there are any positives that come out of this for for teachers for kids for

00:35:07.080 the education system is anything that we can learn from this that otherwise might not have

00:35:12.380 happened uh any upsides at all that you see to to what's happened um i don't know that will be a no

00:35:19.880 i don't think there are i mean look it's lovely people clapping and and and it brings a certain

00:35:28.360 camaraderie and people pull together and so on but i mean it's devastating obviously what is

00:35:34.960 happening and uh no i mean i i don't see many positives apart from the fact that the country

00:35:41.520 is trying to pull together and i say the country is trying to pull together i'm disappointed by

00:35:47.360 um the number of people just saying crazy things accusations of the government you know i'm not

00:35:53.880 i'm not saying the government has done everything correctly obviously they're making mistakes they're

00:35:57.820 in a very difficult situation um but i do think it's i i do worry about the press being uh so

00:36:07.460 vicious in the way that some sometimes they can be uh when these are just ordinary men and women

00:36:13.300 they get earned 67 000 pounds a year or whatever it is as a politician you know they're just people

00:36:18.660 who are trying to help their country now you might want to say oh they've made certain mistakes

00:36:23.340 All the accusations of Dominic Cummings, I mean, look, he's just a bit of a nerd who can't dress properly. I mean, I don't think he's this mastermind, you know, rubbing his hands together thinking, oh, how can I get everybody to do what I want?

00:36:39.880 and honestly I just

00:36:42.000 I find it really weird

00:36:44.040 and it wouldn't matter which political party

00:36:46.000 was in power, these people are just

00:36:47.920 ordinary human beings trying to do the best job

00:36:50.040 that they can

00:36:50.760 in a very, very difficult situation

00:36:53.840 I can just imagine the stress that they've got

00:36:55.680 and when you look at Tony Blair or Obama

00:36:57.940 and you look at them, pictures before

00:36:59.860 they started

00:37:00.480 and they've aged massively

00:37:05.900 you know, I can only imagine

00:37:07.720 you know, Matt Hancock must be aging

00:37:09.800 100 years every day you know yeah there's one exception to that rule and i actually tried to

00:37:15.720 do a comedy routine about it that donald trump has not aged the day apparently the stresses of

00:37:20.360 power are not affecting him quite as much but i actually it's a really important thing that you

00:37:25.600 bring up because i think that you are someone who is in a position of leadership you have a lot of

00:37:29.900 experience in that and i think one of the things that i see from a lot of the people who are in my

00:37:35.440 opinion overly critical and i agree with you of some of the things the government is saying they

00:37:39.800 just don't have any experience of being a leader i mean the first thing you learn when you lead

00:37:44.240 anything whether it's you know a school football team or anything is that you make mistakes all

00:37:51.200 the time and there is no getting away from it exactly that that is exactly right and uh you

00:37:56.660 know friends of mine who are attacking the government and so on or or and i sort of think

00:38:01.560 look you if you're not a leader it's true they don't have the experience uh journalists obviously

00:38:06.380 are not leaders you know i mean obviously they are journalists and they're great what they do

00:38:10.200 and i'm not being critical but they also have never uh built something up from the ground

00:38:15.920 and let it and and when you've done that you know one how remember i spoke about trust at the

00:38:22.220 beginning how important it is to have trust from your people because if you don't have that then

00:38:27.740 everything just spins out of control the other thing that you learn is just how hard it is to

00:38:31.800 be a leader and how hard it is to get it right and that when you are hit by things that you're

00:38:37.040 not expecting you have to make quick decisions and sometimes you're going to get them wrong

00:38:41.840 and that's okay because you're human and and you hope that you are surrounded by people

00:38:47.960 who are kind enough to forgive you for those mistakes um and i know that i am with my staff

00:38:54.980 I'm very lucky to have my staff because when I make mistakes, they forgive me and they help me pick up the pieces and we keep moving forward.

00:39:02.760 And I feel that there aren't enough people helping the government with that.

00:39:06.440 Now, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't put forward their alternative views.

00:39:09.480 You know, Peter Hitchens is always going to take an alternative view and is very anti the lockdown.

00:39:13.320 And that's fine. I just think that when we're being critical, we need to do it in a constructive way.

00:39:18.540 we need to we need to make our arguments and we need to lay out our evidence and reasons why

00:39:25.140 as opposed to just making these big pronouncements we're not going back until it's safe like well

00:39:29.820 what does that mean so we're not going back for a year is that what we're suggesting you know

00:39:34.040 it's it's um we have to be reasonable in in what we're saying and what we're accepting and i feel

00:39:42.140 that i'm trying to be reasonable when i say look whatever the government tells me to do i will do

00:39:45.600 um now and people are surprised by that because normally i get really annoyed about what we're

00:39:50.940 told to do in education and that's because i'm an expert in education so i know what works in

00:39:56.920 the classroom and so i'm very vocal about that i know for instance that social distancing cannot

00:40:01.760 work in schools so i've been very vocal about that what i don't know is how to get the country

00:40:06.740 moving again and how to save all those small businesses you know people assume that it's just

00:40:12.140 uh the the virus that's killing people but you know there's all sorts of stats to show that

00:40:16.960 there are more for instance uh battered women at home who have been killed in the last few weeks

00:40:21.920 um they're all sorts of people people will be committing suicide because of their situation

00:40:27.320 financial situations you know we mustn't just assume that the only thing that kills is the

00:40:31.920 virus there are other things that kill too and um and i'm no expert so that's why i can't make

00:40:38.080 a decision. I'm simply ringing alarm bells and saying, hey, look, everybody, we need to think

00:40:43.380 about this stuff. And is it very, very difficult now to sort of plan a coherent strategy where you

00:40:49.860 were talking about the culture war in education where you're on one side and you've got progressives

00:40:54.700 on the other side? Can you actually formulate a coherent strategy when you've got those two sides

00:41:01.120 bumping heads, essentially? And that's the point. That's exactly the point, which is that all that

00:41:06.780 ends up happening is each side is shouting nobody's actually listening to each other

00:41:10.660 and um it's it's really sad i just uh remembered that i didn't mention actually about ppe because

00:41:17.420 uh um that's one thing that teachers say you know they need to have ppe and um and i that i don't

00:41:23.400 think is an unreasonable thing for teachers to be provided with ppe while teaching uh that would

00:41:29.300 certainly go a long way to gaining uh the trust of teachers so if government wanted to do something

00:41:35.620 to make teachers feel at ease that would be something having said that ppe is difficult 0.98

00:41:41.740 to get into the hospitals and obviously they need to be there first so um maybe that's not possible

00:41:49.480 but uh not ppe for children that's silly and the reason why it's silly is because if you know kids

00:41:55.860 they'll break it in two minutes exactly they'll lose it it'll be finished there's no point so

00:42:01.760 the only people who should have PPE in schools would be the teachers uh you know I thought it

00:42:07.500 was really clever the way in which the supermarkets almost immediately uh enacted you know they got

00:42:13.860 a screen up it was within days that they had screens up and they had their stickers on the

00:42:18.880 floor for two meters apart and they had a whole system they just changed everything instantly

00:42:23.460 that sort of thing might be uh you know what I'm saying is that systems in schools and leaders in

00:42:30.300 school this needs to be thinking well how can we make it so that we can protect our staff the best

00:42:34.620 as possible the other thing i didn't mention actually in terms of running a school and how

00:42:38.260 difficult it is the idea of going back is that we mustn't forget if they're telling you to send

00:42:43.100 home everyone who has a cough and if they're telling you to send home everyone who has an

00:42:46.800 underlying issue and that that includes everyone with asthma and everybody has asthma right

00:42:50.820 you've got less than half your staff there and if you've got less than half your staff but you've

00:42:56.240 got all the kids that's a disaster right so we've got we do have to think really carefully about how

00:43:02.400 it's done um now you may just want to send home the staff who have um underlying issues because

00:43:07.520 what i understand 50 of people uh carrying it wouldn't wouldn't show symptoms anyway so i you

00:43:15.660 know what do you do you got five people with symptoms five people without symptoms who do

00:43:18.880 you send you know it's very hard as a leader and we must think about people like me had teachers

00:43:24.520 who are having to make difficult decisions

00:43:26.720 in difficult circumstances.

00:43:28.560 And that's not me complaining

00:43:29.740 because they are also in a difficult situation.

00:43:32.840 But I suppose my plea is to anyone listening to this

00:43:35.820 to just be kind to those of us

00:43:38.200 who are having to make difficult decisions

00:43:40.200 in difficult circumstances.

00:43:41.960 Nobody wants anyone to die.

00:43:43.840 Nobody wants to put anyone's life in danger.

00:43:47.020 Everyone's trying to do their best.

00:43:49.400 Now we might disagree about how that best needs to be achieved.

00:43:52.380 Even the scientists disagree with each other about the right way forward.

00:43:56.680 So if even the scientists are disagreeing, then we need to recognize that there isn't obviously one clear route about what to do.

00:44:04.140 Now, we do need to speak, you know, carefully.

00:44:07.700 So you mentioned Donald Trump earlier, and I think that Donald Trump has been rather, you know, loose with his language and the things that he has been saying.

00:44:16.640 And I think that that's poor leadership.

00:44:18.980 leaders need to be very careful about what they say and how they say it especially when others

00:44:25.620 are listening to you and then will go off and copy what you've said and and will have misunderstood 1.00

00:44:30.540 what you've said um and it's easy to say well they're just stupid well you know the fact is 0.99

00:44:36.220 people don't know and they're listening to you so you do have to be careful as a leader um there is 0.99

00:44:41.580 a response we have a responsibility and i say we because i'm a leader we have a responsibility to

00:44:46.440 think very carefully about the things that we're saying and what we're doing and our actions um

00:44:51.240 and people have a responsibility i think to be kind in their judgment of us and there's a question

00:44:58.340 that i wanted to ask you actually last episode catherine and we touched on this earlier in the

00:45:03.300 interview which is teacher bashing teachers are one of the most important roles this country

00:45:10.080 any society can have we all remember a great teacher we all remember a teacher that changed

00:45:15.880 our lives that inspired our love of learning for for a particular subject why is it in this country

00:45:22.060 we do not have respect for teachers because i was a teacher for 12 years and i saw it day in day out

00:45:27.800 that's why i make because you were a teacher that's why we don't have respect for teachers

00:45:32.160 they let people like you do it that's why absolutely well that's probably part of it but

00:45:37.820 why do you think what i find it's been really interesting on twitter because um i've been

00:45:45.760 able to have those conversations and hear what people say in a way that i in my own circle of

00:45:50.740 friends and so on i wouldn't i wouldn't have heard these opinions because the people i know tend to

00:45:54.800 like teachers um and what i hear is often i hear i had a teacher when i was in year seven who was

00:46:03.400 mean to me and i hate him and they kept that anger because there was a teacher who once did x

00:46:10.940 and they hold that against uh everyone um i remember diane abbott once talking about um

00:46:18.140 a teacher of hers so this would have been in the 1980s and she'd written an excellent essay 0.95

00:46:21.960 uh and it was brilliant but she was told that it was bad and she was stupid and so on and no doubt 0.94

00:46:26.960 the teacher was racist and that was what was going on this was in the 1980s now she's taken 0.91

00:46:32.440 that so to heart i feel that it informs her judgment of teacher it has informed her judgment

00:46:38.140 of teachers since and she's been well known to be accusing schools of being all sorts of things

00:46:42.460 you know in the past and uh and i think that that's because she can't let go of that particular

00:46:48.320 experience i think that i find that with lots of my followers on twitter and so on that they are

00:46:53.880 very angry about a particular teacher um they also have a certain way of they believe that the school

00:47:02.760 ought to teach in a particular way and if the teacher if the teachers aren't doing that they

00:47:07.360 get very angry about it and my my position on that is that look you're going to get a variety

00:47:13.020 of different schools if you can have choice if you live in a big city great you've got choice

00:47:17.080 try and choose a school that best matches your values um if you don't well sadly that's just

00:47:23.200 the way that it is and you need to recognize that there is going to be a particular way in which

00:47:28.160 that school leader that head teacher is going to leave that school and you know they might have a

00:47:33.680 way of having the teachers all pull together and deliver teaching in a particular kind of way,

00:47:38.420 or they might be a lot more free about it. They might let teachers just get up to whatever they

00:47:41.960 want. There are different styles of schools. And it's just the way that it is. And you're not going

00:47:49.980 to get a school, any school, you will never find a school which delivers exactly what you want.

00:47:56.440 You as a parent, and this is key, and this is something that this pandemic is really

00:48:01.000 demonstrating for me which is that parents have forgotten that part of their role is to teach

00:48:07.820 their children okay it isn't just the role of teachers you as a parent before your child goes

00:48:14.480 to school should be trying to teach them how to read you as a parent should be reading with them

00:48:19.940 regularly every single day all of the time i would say right up to the age of 15 you know

00:48:25.280 you as a parent should be encouraging them if you are able to afford it try and get them playing a

00:48:30.760 musical instrument and if you can't afford it get them on get them doing chess online for instance

00:48:36.800 right now you can go on chess kid.com and you can get free subscription in fact all the time you

00:48:41.880 could have played chess kid you don't get a subscription but you could have done it for free

00:48:44.920 online all the time where all the families sat around teaching their children how to play chess

00:48:49.160 or sat around playing monopoly you know the fact is that parents have just farmed out that

00:48:55.660 responsibility to schools and i do think that this happens because the state um has become all

00:49:02.100 powerful in in our society and we are just used to uh looking to the state we are dependent on

00:49:09.040 the state for everything tell me how to think tell me what to do tell me you know and so when

00:49:13.240 it comes to our own children we do not recognize that our responsibility as parents is we are the

00:49:19.780 first protocol in teaching them then you send them to school so yes they're going to be taught

00:49:25.340 physics GCSE you might not know much physics they're going to be taught history GCSE maybe

00:49:29.360 you're not an expert at that but there's loads certainly at primary level you should be there

00:49:35.000 every step along the way and I think too many parents are not fulfilling their responsibility

00:49:39.120 on that and then they like to just blame so they'll just blame the teacher it's because the

00:49:43.920 teacher hasn't taught him well what have you taught him as a parent um so it it comes around

00:49:50.360 there is also, I mean, look, I'm blaming parents, but there is also the unions. The unions are one

00:49:56.780 of the big reasons why teachers are hated because they give us all a bad name. I'm constantly

00:50:01.160 embarrassed, constantly humiliated by the things the unions are saying. I mean, I just, they make

00:50:06.360 us look like we're lazy. That's what they make us look like. And what I would ask anybody, any

00:50:11.500 non-educationalist listening to this, to listen to me and to believe me when I say the vast

00:50:17.620 majority of teachers are not like them okay the unions speak supposedly for us but there are many

00:50:23.660 teachers who they are not speaking for it's just that those teachers don't have a voice there are

00:50:28.200 all sorts of teachers right now who um and i don't mean me because i do have a voice i mean

00:50:33.580 we're giving a voice to the voiceless here in trigonometry catherine that's what we do

00:50:38.260 there are famous teachers out there right now who are working like mad who are delivering wonderful

00:50:44.480 lessons and videos and they're doing everything they're marketing their work as it's coming back

00:50:50.140 to them on photos on google classroom and so on they're doing everything they can for their kids

00:50:54.800 um and then the union say we don't want this we don't want that and then the parents think oh

00:50:59.960 you're just a bunch of lazy teachers but they're not it's just that they don't have a voice and

00:51:03.820 they're not able to tell you everything they're doing for your children teachers every teacher 0.61

00:51:07.720 i've ever known all of them they all go into teaching because they love kids they go into

00:51:13.920 teaching because they want to change the world. That's what they want to do. They want to have

00:51:18.340 impact on the world. And they think that by teaching little children, by, you know, when I

00:51:22.860 say little, they can be 15, but you know, by teaching children, you're able to have impact

00:51:27.280 on the world. That's what you can do as a teacher. And that's why it's the most wonderful job.

00:51:31.580 And every teacher goes into it for that reason. Now it's true that not every teacher comes out

00:51:36.300 of it on the other side, still thinking that. And that is because the system can grind them down

00:51:42.300 And it grinds them down for a whole variety of reasons.

00:51:44.580 My other trigonometry interview that I've done with you

00:51:47.060 explains some of the reasons why teachers get ground down

00:51:49.900 because I believe that the system is better than it was.

00:51:54.400 I was going to say it's broken, but it's better than it was 10 years ago.

00:51:58.380 I feel we're on a trajectory moving upwards in this country

00:52:01.700 and things are getting better all of the time.

00:52:03.300 So I'm really positive about education at the moment and where we're going.

00:52:06.820 But there's no question that teachers are under a lot of stress.

00:52:10.120 it's really hard being a teacher and they give a lot to the the system and sometimes it can break

00:52:16.540 them and so again i would ask families who are perhaps a bit too judgmental of teachers

00:52:20.720 give them a break you know it's hard that doesn't mean every teacher is good you know and i do think

00:52:25.440 the unions again the unions can often come in and defend teachers who are bad and you know insist on

00:52:29.880 keeping them in the classroom um i i i do think the unions do us uh far fewer favors than you know

00:52:37.880 I mean, they have a role to play. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, but I do wish that they weren't as rabid as they are.

00:52:44.640 That makes a lot of sense. Catherine, we've come to the end of our hour with you.

00:52:48.420 It's always a pleasure speaking with you. It's such a passionate advocate for the things that you believe and you believe them based on your experience.

00:52:56.300 And speaking of your experience, what is the one thing that you see right now that is not being talked about that you think we really should be talking about as a society?

00:53:05.080 yeah well you know what i just said actually about the state i mean you know i i've said

00:53:12.540 this before i think in the last interview you know we have got so used to depending on the state and

00:53:19.560 i don't just mean people are on welfare okay i here's an example we just expect the schools to

00:53:25.260 teach our children and we've forgotten about the responsibility that we have to our own children

00:53:28.700 um we we expect the government to sort out this pandemic and you know if they haven't sorted it

00:53:33.840 and people are dying well.

00:53:34.980 You haven't done your job, you know?

00:53:37.560 We have to think psychologically,

00:53:39.300 what does that do to a country?

00:53:40.920 What does that do to us

00:53:41.860 when we have abandoned personal responsibility?

00:53:45.440 When we have abandoned a sense of duty?

00:53:48.280 You know, once upon a time,

00:53:49.220 we all talked about duty

00:53:50.300 and how we had a duty to better the community,

00:53:53.220 to better the world,

00:53:54.320 to go out there and do something

00:53:55.860 so that you can sit on your deathbed

00:53:57.500 at the end of your life

00:53:58.560 and look back and say,

00:53:59.740 look, actually, I lived.

00:54:02.300 I had impact on the world you know that combination of duty and responsibility I think has been

00:54:09.080 eroded over the last you know several decades and and I think sadly that has to do with the

00:54:15.300 influence of the state when you take away too much from an individual in terms of what they need what

00:54:20.500 they're responsible for um they they forget how to how to be how to be human how how to live you

00:54:27.360 know and I say you want to be you want to live you don't want to just exist and that requires

00:54:31.260 buying into those concepts of personal responsibility duty obligation um behaving

00:54:37.820 in a decent manner uh kindness gratitude all of those which are all you know uh sentiments and

00:54:46.160 ideas that we we try and instill in our children at michaela that sounds like a party political

00:54:51.640 broadcast for the labor party no no that's a political broadcast for the conservative party

00:54:58.380 personal responsibility but yeah I would say it isn't a party political broadcast for any party

00:55:05.360 these days nobody talks you ever hear a politician talking about personal responsibility about duty

00:55:10.440 about obligation never doesn't come out of their mouths it doesn't exist they don't we don't talk

00:55:14.760 in that fashion anymore and um that is sad I think that in 2020 we just lost something and I think

00:55:22.600 we need to get it back I think you're right Catherine it's so interesting the point that

00:55:26.120 you make about people expecting the government to be able to just solve any problem i see so many

00:55:31.060 people now going oh look look how many people have died and you're going yeah it's a pandemic

00:55:37.100 people die in the pandemic that's what happens you know like the government can't just fix

00:55:42.600 everything completely without any consequences it's extremely sad it's devastating families and

00:55:50.060 so on um and people sadly always look to blame somebody it's the same with the teacher's point

00:55:56.300 you know why do they hate teachers because they want an explanation for why their child can't do

00:56:00.000 maths you know um you have to get out of that mentality what is my responsibility what can I

00:56:07.000 do to change this that's what we should always be thinking and Catherine you mentioned there's a

00:56:12.380 book that you're working on at the moment as well tell us about that before we let you go

00:56:15.800 Yeah, we have got a book called The Power of Culture. It talks about all the ideas actually that I was just mentioning about duty and personal responsibility and so on and how we try and instill these values in the children at school and how important I think these values are to a school and to education.

00:56:33.160 And I have to say this book, The Power of Culture, it's written by all of our teachers. Well, not all of them, but most of them. And we do say some very controversial things.

00:56:42.420 I am a bit nervous about it because what we're saying, you're not really meant to think, let alone say, as a teacher.

00:56:48.700 But I think it's important for us to to move to move the to move the conversation on from where it's at in education at the moment.

00:56:58.000 So we're actually having a book launch, online book launch on Zoom at 6 p.m. on Wednesday next week on the 6th.

00:57:06.480 So and everyone's invited. I've been tweeting out. Anyone can come.

00:57:09.840 they just need to sign up and uh there's an interview with me and i'll be talking more about

00:57:14.440 the book so you know your your viewers are very welcome to come along fantastic thanks so much

00:57:19.220 and it sounds like uh you're going to trigger some people which is what we always approve of

00:57:23.240 here at chicken obituary so uh thanks so much catherine and everybody for watching we'll see

00:57:27.560 you in a week's time

00:57:39.840 We know you've been waiting and your full great outdoors comedy festival

00:57:48.400 lineup is here on September 11th through 13th at Arendelle Park comedy

00:57:53.420 superstars, John Mulaney with Nick Kroll,

00:57:56.080 Mike Berbiglia and Fred Armisen,

00:57:58.220 Adam Ray is Dr. Phil live with Miss Pat and TJ Miller,

00:58:02.060 Hassan Minhaj and Ronnie Chang with Michael Costa and more hit the stage.

00:58:05.900 Three nights, five shows, huge laughs.

00:58:09.140 September 11th through 13th.

00:58:11.100 Buy tickets now at greatoutdoorscomedyfestival.com.

TRIGGERnometry - May 03, 2020

＂Social Distancing is Impossible in Schools＂ - Katharine Birbalsingh

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