TRIGGERnometry - February 02, 2025


The Authorities Failed Those Girls - Julia Hartley-Brewer


Episode Stats

Length

1 hour and 18 minutes

Words per Minute

193.33702

Word Count

15,137

Sentence Count

1,058

Misogynist Sentences

25

Hate Speech Sentences

60


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Julia Chaudhuri joins us to talk about the Southport attack, the Rotherham attack, and the lack of action by the British authorities in the wake of the Rochdale and Telford attacks.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.880 Social workers wouldn't go to his home without a police escort.
00:00:04.680 That's how dangerous they believed him to be.
00:00:06.740 Oh, but let's leave him free to walk the streets.
00:00:09.520 All of the signs were there and nothing was done because he didn't fit a category.
00:00:13.800 I mean, it's such a failure on every single count, on both of those major stories,
00:00:18.860 both of which involved terrible tragedies, terrible things happening to little girls.
00:00:24.580 Grooming gangs were known, known by, not doing it, no one knew,
00:00:28.640 were known by the authorities. Some were even killed.
00:00:31.320 People can't forget that. Some were even actually murdered.
00:00:33.540 And yet there were times when these girls found themselves prosecuted.
00:00:36.720 So why is that happening?
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00:01:09.600 Julia, welcome back to the show.
00:01:11.120 Thank you very much. It's been a very long time.
00:01:12.820 It has. Well, it's not because we don't like you and we've asked you on.
00:01:15.900 I've been busy.
00:01:16.500 You've been busy.
00:01:17.020 You've been busy. Here you are. A lot to talk about.
00:01:21.120 Yeah.
00:01:21.960 And a lot of very serious things to talk about in the last couple of weeks that,
00:01:26.080 you know, the grooming gang's obviously exploding, that conversation.
00:01:29.520 We've had the Southport murder a sentence.
00:01:32.980 What have been your takes on the last few weeks?
00:01:35.280 I don't know. I don't know about you.
00:01:36.400 I've just been kind of blown away by the whole thing, depressed by the whole thing
00:01:39.400 and incredibly incensed and angry by the whole thing at the abject failure of pretty much
00:01:44.840 every single authority in our country.
00:01:47.760 I mean, it's such a failure on every single count on both of those major stories,
00:01:53.100 both of which involved terrible tragedies, terrible things happening to little girls,
00:01:58.600 where there were 13-year-olds being raped for years on end,
00:02:03.120 gang raped by rape grooming gangs, or Telford and Rotherham and Rochdale,
00:02:08.740 and then it turns out another 45 other cities and towns across the country.
00:02:12.940 Or it was those little girls who were killed by Axel Rubikana in Southport
00:02:17.540 and the other eight who were stabbed.
00:02:19.520 Oh, and by the way, you know, the other sort of, you know, 20-odd who were in the room
00:02:25.560 who somehow escaped, well, with just the mental scars, not the physical scars.
00:02:30.980 And in both of these cases, very, very different and yet exactly the same issue,
00:02:35.840 which is British authorities, whose job it is, whose job it is to keep us safe, failed.
00:02:43.460 And they failed again and again and again and again.
00:02:47.860 But don't worry, guys.
00:02:49.400 We're going to have inquiries of some kind or another,
00:02:51.880 not necessarily the big public inquirer in Southport that we all think we need and do need.
00:02:56.940 But we're going to have other inquiries.
00:02:58.320 We're going to have investigations and lessons will be learned.
00:03:01.540 Like it's the knife's fault?
00:03:02.760 I think it's all down to Amazon.
00:03:05.420 I think this country, our authorities, think that everything is down to nasty things
00:03:10.920 being sold on the internet and hurty words on the internet.
00:03:13.860 And if you could just solve that, we'd all be fine.
00:03:17.240 I think these people are so deeply wrong.
00:03:21.060 I think they are immoral in terms of their failure to do their job.
00:03:24.860 Because you know what?
00:03:25.260 If you can't do that job, you have no bloody business pretending you can
00:03:29.100 because people's lives are at stake.
00:03:30.920 And I think sometimes, I think, I cannot work out, are they mad or bad?
00:03:36.060 Do they just not care about, you know, people's lives?
00:03:40.740 Are they so desperate to virtue signal and not say the wrong thing and not be called a bad word
00:03:46.360 and to still go to the North London dinner parties they want to go to?
00:03:49.320 Is that their concern?
00:03:50.240 Or do they genuinely believe that if only Akshay Rukhana didn't have to wait an extra nine days
00:03:56.280 to buy a knife from Amazon, that the Southport attack wouldn't have happened?
00:04:01.300 Or if only people didn't say nasty things about Pakistanis,
00:04:05.760 then we would have been able to tackle the grooming gangs led largely by men of Pakistani heritage.
00:04:11.900 It's always about words.
00:04:13.720 It's about stuff on the internet.
00:04:14.660 It's never about the actual problem.
00:04:17.460 Do you think that's because, look, I think they do care.
00:04:20.340 I think it's hard to imagine a human being, although some exist, but it's hard to imagine.
00:04:24.240 Most people.
00:04:24.980 It's hard to imagine a government made up of people who don't care about little girls being killed.
00:04:29.060 I imagine.
00:04:29.860 You say that.
00:04:31.620 You say that.
00:04:33.040 But let's talk about, let's go back to Southport.
00:04:35.720 No, not Southport.
00:04:36.400 So let's go back to the grooming gangs.
00:04:37.900 So for years on years, in dozens and dozens of towns and cities across our country,
00:04:43.980 for 10, 20, possibly even 30 years, grooming gangs were known, known by, not doing it,
00:04:50.180 no one knew, were known by the authorities, known by the police to be going out,
00:04:54.460 to be drugging and giving alcohol to and threatening and grooming young teenage girls
00:04:59.900 in care, in difficult circumstances, and then having them gang raped, tortured, beaten.
00:05:06.000 Some were even killed.
00:05:07.200 People keep forgetting that.
00:05:08.060 Some were even actually murdered.
00:05:10.060 Young girls were turning up back at their care homes, you know, bloodied and bruised.
00:05:15.820 They were being taken to hospital, pregnant.
00:05:18.680 Some girls had to have surgery.
00:05:20.140 They'd been so badly injured.
00:05:21.780 Are you telling me?
00:05:23.040 Are you telling me?
00:05:24.120 There were all these people who cared, the doctors and the care home workers and the social workers
00:05:29.040 and the police and the council leaders.
00:05:31.300 You're saying they cared, but they just didn't care quite enough to stop it.
00:05:35.760 Could you imagine any of us?
00:05:37.460 I like to think any of the audience watching this, my audience at Talk TV, I can't imagine
00:05:41.520 any of us going, well, I'm worried about my career, I'm paying my mortgage, so I won't
00:05:45.960 do anything to try and stop this.
00:05:47.180 I can't imagine.
00:05:47.720 I don't, I don't see, I don't see how you can have any morality and not stop that.
00:05:53.180 Well, on that issue, we had Maggie Oliver, the police whistleblower.
00:05:55.940 The wonderful Maggie Oliver.
00:05:57.220 Yes.
00:05:57.640 Who did give up her career.
00:05:58.600 She did, and she also talked about the fact that one of the comments that, I can't remember
00:06:02.540 who made it, it was either another police officer or somebody in position of authority, said
00:06:07.600 that, oh, these girls, they should have just been drowned at birth or something, because
00:06:11.200 of what, because of how worthless they were considered.
00:06:14.620 Well, they were slags, weren't they?
00:06:15.080 They were whores and slags, you know.
00:06:16.940 The idea they were underage prostitutes.
00:06:18.740 There's no such thing.
00:06:19.900 There's no such thing as, you're a victim of rape.
00:06:22.920 If you're under 16 and you're having sex, particularly with a man who's old enough to be your father
00:06:26.240 or grandfather, you're a victim of rape, end of, nothing to discuss.
00:06:30.260 And yet, there were times when these girls were found themselves prosecuted, taken into
00:06:34.320 a prison, into a police cell, and the men who were perpetrating this evil against them
00:06:39.020 were let off.
00:06:40.060 I don't know how you can say, well, most people, well, they might have been good people,
00:06:44.660 they weren't good enough.
00:06:45.420 In the interest of fairness, as somebody who has actually taught and taught in deprived
00:06:50.040 areas, it is systemic, because let's say you notice bruises on a little boy's body, you
00:06:56.660 were taught, refer it to your line manager, your line manager will then refer it up.
00:07:00.260 So you have done your job.
00:07:02.280 And all you can do is your job.
00:07:03.920 And if the bruises keep happening, you go to your line manager, what's happening about
00:07:06.600 it?
00:07:06.800 But you don't have that much power, particularly if you're at that echelon of the chain.
00:07:11.480 No, absolutely.
00:07:11.840 I mean, so in the Sarah Sharif case, you know, she was taken out of school.
00:07:15.180 When the school started noticing her bruises, the little girl who ended up being murdered
00:07:19.260 by her father and her stepmother, they took her out of school.
00:07:22.200 Well, first of all, they put her in a hajib to cover her up, so she couldn't, her bruises
00:07:26.140 couldn't be seen on her face.
00:07:27.360 I mean, you know, evil people are quite clever at covering up their evil deeds.
00:07:33.080 But the key thing is, if you're in a position of authority, if you're in a position of trust,
00:07:36.620 if you are somebody whose job it is to protect people, if children are coming to you and
00:07:44.420 saying, this is happening to me and you don't do anything about it, if police officers like
00:07:49.460 Maggie Oliver are going to people and saying, you need to do something about this, and you
00:07:52.600 choose not to do it because you don't want to stir up community tensions and all of this,
00:07:56.400 I just think you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.
00:08:00.020 I'd also like to see your hard drive.
00:08:02.360 I know, I'm serious.
00:08:03.140 I think we, I don't know, what was happening in, you know, the Roman Catholic Church and
00:08:06.900 the Church of England for all the issues, and many other churches as well.
00:08:09.440 It's not just, you know, happening in certain churches.
00:08:12.120 The cover-ups that went on and on where a priest would be found to have been, you know,
00:08:16.060 sexually abusing or beating both children in one diocese.
00:08:20.700 Oh, well, oh, can you move him somewhere else?
00:08:22.940 This was routine.
00:08:23.880 Oh, well, send him to Africa.
00:08:25.020 It's okay if he abuses, you know, African children.
00:08:27.260 This was routine in the Church for decades.
00:08:30.500 It's fairly routine even now.
00:08:32.620 They'll pretend it isn't, but it is happening now.
00:08:34.900 We just lost Justin Wilby as the Archbishop of Canada because his failure to deal with this
00:08:39.020 stuff, stuff he knew and he didn't deal with.
00:08:41.680 I just, there is just no circumstance when I can see myself, and I think you guys and
00:08:47.040 people watching or listening to this can see themselves going, yeah, I'm going to put
00:08:51.180 my career over saving a child from being abused.
00:08:54.240 I don't, I just don't think you have any normal human morality if you do that.
00:08:59.960 Yes.
00:09:00.580 Look, I'm in an agreement with you, and I also think we need to look at the fact that there's
00:09:05.320 been systemic failings as well.
00:09:07.500 The fact, take the case of the killer of Southport.
00:09:12.540 He went into a school, his old school, armed with a hockey stick, targeting students, had
00:09:19.780 to be tackled to the ground, I think by the deputy head.
00:09:22.420 Yes, he literally jumped on him.
00:09:24.380 Yeah.
00:09:24.740 And you go, so then why was nothing done about that?
00:09:28.640 That is also a very, very serious incident.
00:09:30.540 He admitted 10 times he's carried a knife.
00:09:31.880 He was definitely caught with a knife in school as well.
00:09:34.940 He was found on a bus with a knife again and again and again.
00:09:38.660 What's amazing is, you know, he was sent off to the special schools, you know, to deal
00:09:41.940 with, you know, these sort of kids, didn't bother turning up, only went for a few days
00:09:45.340 in total.
00:09:46.560 Social workers sent to his home.
00:09:47.760 Social workers wouldn't go to his home without a police escort.
00:09:51.560 That's how dangerous they believed him to be.
00:09:53.640 Oh, but let's leave him free to walk the streets.
00:09:56.540 I mean, that seems normal.
00:09:58.420 These are the choices we make.
00:09:59.840 And this comes back to, you know, the big debate that's been going on in the last couple
00:10:03.720 of weeks, especially since we learned so much more detail about Axel Rubio Kavanaugh after
00:10:09.820 his sentencing, which was one of the most harrowing things I've ever covered as a journalist.
00:10:15.220 Not even in court.
00:10:16.200 And I've sat in court through some horrible cases as a news reporter.
00:10:19.460 But covering that on air, reading out some of the details.
00:10:23.100 And I'm in the studio.
00:10:24.080 You know, I've got a 60-year-old ex-military man who happened to be my guest that day.
00:10:30.100 And he and I were both red-eyed.
00:10:31.460 There were a couple of times when I just had to say, I'm going to have to go to a break.
00:10:33.640 I can't even, you know, as a mum, I can't read this out loud.
00:10:37.520 This is just too awful.
00:10:39.180 And I'm saying to people, if you've got kids in the car, you might want to, you know,
00:10:42.660 tune out at this point.
00:10:43.760 But we need to get the information out.
00:10:45.040 But the key thing about this, so much information was known and so little was done.
00:10:49.280 And then the whole debate became about whether the authorities would deem him as an extremist.
00:10:54.340 Was it because he has Islamic material, Islamic al-Qaeda training manual?
00:10:59.100 So was it, you know, which in itself is a terror offence.
00:11:01.780 But whether that was meant that he was, you know, an Islamist inspired terrorist.
00:11:07.040 No, we thought we had other ideologies obsessed it would appear with.
00:11:10.680 White genocide spoke about that at the school.
00:11:13.140 And this became the big debate.
00:11:14.540 And yet, this is all about words.
00:11:17.860 Everything with this government, and I think the last government as well, is about words.
00:11:21.620 Whether it's hurty words on Twitter, whether it's someone saying something that people don't like,
00:11:25.900 the language you use about a particular issue, as opposed to actions and deeds
00:11:29.660 and taking action against people who would do us wrong.
00:11:32.460 This guy was clearly a danger.
00:11:34.720 He went from being a 12-year-old choir boy, you know, Christian Rwandan migrant parents,
00:11:40.000 who, you know, who was suddenly incredibly troubled,
00:11:41.900 who called Childline and talked about, I want to kill people.
00:11:45.420 What do I do about that?
00:11:47.540 You know, bought knives, you know, beat up other, you know, being in Wendell School, beat up the kids.
00:11:52.840 His dad was so worried a week before the Southport attack that his child was going to go and commit a massacre at a high school,
00:11:57.600 which is what he planned to do.
00:11:59.000 He begged, you know, a taxi driver not to take him.
00:12:01.220 Now, all of the signs were there and nothing was done because he didn't fit a category,
00:12:06.500 because someone had to tick a box and go, oh, he's a far-right terrorist, he's an Islamist terrorist, he's an incel.
00:12:13.540 Well, he didn't fit any category.
00:12:16.100 And so the computer said no.
00:12:19.140 That's what happened.
00:12:19.560 The computer said no and nothing was done.
00:12:21.580 He didn't respond to some of the efforts made by social workers and Prevent.
00:12:26.580 So they just kind of didn't bother.
00:12:28.740 Same issue we have with kids who were murdered by their parents.
00:12:32.040 Often again, oh, the parents wouldn't let us in the door.
00:12:34.700 If the parents don't let you in the door, you bash the door down, you arrest the parents,
00:12:38.860 and you take the kid into care.
00:12:40.380 The failure to take action against people who are a risk to us,
00:12:46.140 again and again and again and again and again,
00:12:48.900 every single Islamist terrorist who has committed an atrocity in our streets in the last 20 years
00:12:53.620 was known to the authorities.
00:12:54.880 Often they've been followed by the authorities.
00:12:57.140 They had clear links with Islamist terrorist ideology and they talked about it.
00:13:02.440 They knew people.
00:13:03.440 Nothing was done.
00:13:04.520 So many criminals.
00:13:06.360 Nottingham murder.
00:13:07.940 The other year, there's a caretaker and two young students killed in the prime of their life.
00:13:14.060 So many opportunities to prevent those murders from happening.
00:13:18.740 And they weren't taken.
00:13:19.960 This is about joined-up thinking and it's about putting the rights of law-abiding people
00:13:26.080 from 80 to eight months to live safely in this country.
00:13:32.260 And the only time we ever hear about civil rights in this country from the authorities
00:13:35.560 is when they're worried about the civil rights of someone who would potentially do us harm.
00:13:39.020 They're never worried about the civil rights of everyone else.
00:13:41.840 They don't care about those.
00:13:43.540 I just think we've got things absolutely the wrong way around.
00:13:47.340 You know, in you talking about the words and the obsession with words,
00:13:50.880 I think partly, Julia, it's because you can deal with words.
00:13:54.880 Words is a very easy thing to, you know, you can control them.
00:13:58.520 It's a very easy solution.
00:14:00.660 It's something that's easy to trot out in front of the television cameras.
00:14:04.620 What's more difficult is to tackle the thorny issues and in particular the truth.
00:14:09.560 Yeah, facing up to the truth and dealing with the actual actions.
00:14:13.940 It's hard.
00:14:14.720 I'm not pretending it's easy.
00:14:15.720 I mean, even when we talk about, say, terror attacks,
00:14:17.840 we don't hear about the terror attacks that have been stopped
00:14:20.680 and the magnificent work of the security services.
00:14:23.080 But there are too many that have not been stopped
00:14:25.180 and there are too many criminals that are not stopped,
00:14:27.020 too many mad and bad people who are out and about.
00:14:29.660 And when you get into the madness of last autumn where we had the Labour government,
00:14:35.120 and the Tory government would have done it if they'd still been in power.
00:14:37.500 It was their plan too.
00:14:39.400 Letting out convicted, violent offenders, sex offenders included,
00:14:45.140 letting them onto the streets because they had to clear enough space in prisons
00:14:47.880 to put people who tweeted hurty words in August about the Southport attack,
00:14:53.040 to let them, put them in prison, some of them for, you know, a couple of years.
00:14:56.360 You are in, you know, Alice Through the Looking Glass territory.
00:15:01.120 Yeah.
00:15:01.260 And also as well, you look at Keir Starmer's approach to it
00:15:05.620 and the way that he cracked down using the word far right.
00:15:09.060 Yeah.
00:15:09.240 And I'm thinking to myself, you can only use that tactic once.
00:15:13.240 It's only going to be able to be used once.
00:15:15.620 And after that, it's going to be inflammatory more than anything.
00:15:19.300 Well, I mean, I think, you know, far right, racist, bigot, Islamophobe,
00:15:25.000 all that, that's been thrown at, well, that's been thrown pretty much
00:15:27.560 everybody who voted Brexit since 2016.
00:15:30.180 I've been called all of those things.
00:15:31.440 I am none of those things.
00:15:33.440 My audience are called that, you know, if you watch and listen to anything
00:15:36.920 that isn't, you know, the BBC or Sky News, then you're accused of being that.
00:15:40.740 If you say anything that's even fact-based, you know,
00:15:43.260 you look at the latest Office for National Statistic data
00:15:46.880 on population projections and you say, maybe this isn't a good thing
00:15:50.400 to add another 5 million people to the population over, you know,
00:15:53.600 over a 10-year period or pretty much entirely from immigration.
00:15:57.300 Oh, oh, that's a bit far, right?
00:15:59.040 I mean, I'm stating official government facts and projections
00:16:03.140 and I'm giving a perfectly valid opinion based on the facts as I see them.
00:16:08.380 But that's the thing, they throw this out.
00:16:10.480 We had a report only this week, which we were never supposed to see,
00:16:13.240 a Home Office review of, you know, events post-Southport,
00:16:19.340 so not just the Southport attack, but also the riots afterwards.
00:16:22.300 And it's a review. We don't know who wrote it.
00:16:24.060 It was commissioned by the then Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper,
00:16:26.920 who has now said, oh, no, no, it's not government policy.
00:16:29.680 No, no, no, we weren't going to enact this.
00:16:31.580 This doesn't represent government policy then or now.
00:16:33.860 But this is a review that says not only that, well,
00:16:36.380 we shouldn't just be focusing on ideology.
00:16:38.980 We should be looking at, you know, actions and things.
00:16:40.980 So ideology isn't really the big thing to look at in Prevent.
00:16:44.220 Well, apart from the fact that 80 or 90% of all attacks in this country,
00:16:47.820 which are terror attacks, are from Islamists,
00:16:50.860 80 or 90% of the deaths from terror attacks are from Islamists
00:16:54.460 based on that ideology.
00:16:55.780 Of course, you should be focusing your resources on that.
00:16:58.620 But it also said that we should focus more on non-crime incidents,
00:17:02.200 non-crime hate incidents.
00:17:03.240 By definition, not crime.
00:17:05.120 The non-crime bit is the clue.
00:17:06.560 But the idea that we should be failing to tackle a mad or bad teenager
00:17:12.120 in his bedroom who's planning to massacre in high school
00:17:15.860 and decides to go massacre little children at a Taylor Swift-themed holiday club,
00:17:20.300 but you're going to worry about literal non-crimes, frankly, is absurd.
00:17:26.420 I mean, and dangerous and immoral because it costs lives.
00:17:30.980 But that's what the government has been looking at.
00:17:32.580 So there are people right now on the government payroll, i.e. your and my payroll,
00:17:37.080 our taxes are paying their wages, whether they were freelance
00:17:39.320 or on staff in the civil service, who wrote a report basically saying,
00:17:43.920 yeah, the problem isn't ideology.
00:17:46.180 The problem is, you know, some incels or loan kids on the internet
00:17:52.640 and hurtie words.
00:17:54.800 And, Juliet...
00:17:55.800 Mad.
00:17:58.440 One of the things I find interesting is you talk about how Labour and Conservatives
00:18:03.580 are united in this, really.
00:18:05.700 They largely are, aren't they?
00:18:06.700 Effectively, right?
00:18:07.940 So why is our country in this position?
00:18:11.800 God, there's a question and a half.
00:18:14.280 But why is this happening?
00:18:15.620 That's a question that a lot of our and your audience will be asking.
00:18:18.800 It's like, how do we get here?
00:18:19.900 I came to this country in 1995.
00:18:23.100 Look, they're always going to be in a country of X million people,
00:18:26.520 atrocities and people who are violent.
00:18:28.260 And I remember Dunblane, very, very kind of, you know, terrible.
00:18:31.880 But this idea that sort of every few months there's a massive stabbing
00:18:36.200 in which people are killed or blown up or something.
00:18:39.120 And that kids are stabbing each other.
00:18:40.900 I wasn't a thing when I was a teenager.
00:18:43.640 It was at times, you know, in the early 2000s, there were, like, the postcode wars.
00:18:49.480 I wasn't a teenager.
00:18:52.400 I guess what I'm asking is something else, which is these terrorist attacks
00:18:57.520 and these incidents like the Southport stabbings.
00:19:01.980 They're definitely happening more now.
00:19:06.140 So why is that happening?
00:19:08.380 Why is our country in this position?
00:19:10.000 Because I hear you, lack of enforcement.
00:19:13.700 Look, I know a lot of police officers.
00:19:15.500 I know people in security.
00:19:16.540 I know a lot of police officers who are tearing their hair out of the failures.
00:19:19.340 Yeah.
00:19:20.460 They're tearing their hair out of the failures.
00:19:22.080 But I also think we'd probably accept that they have a bigger workload
00:19:25.360 on those issues than they've ever had.
00:19:27.120 Why is that?
00:19:27.580 I think there are lots of different, you know, social and demographic reasons.
00:19:30.960 I think we have imported a lot of people to this country
00:19:34.160 who don't like this country.
00:19:36.680 What's very interesting, actually, is the high rate of sort of violence incidents
00:19:40.880 from the children of immigrants.
00:19:42.800 Many immigrants come to the country, you know,
00:19:44.860 they want to make a better life for themselves.
00:19:46.480 All credit to them.
00:19:47.420 You want to prove your family's lot.
00:19:49.000 I've got no issue with that at all.
00:19:52.460 But their children often feel, from whichever background,
00:19:55.140 not just Muslim children, many other children,
00:19:58.040 will feel like, I don't quite belong.
00:19:59.440 I've kind of got a foot in both camps,
00:20:01.320 and I don't quite belong in either,
00:20:03.060 and will feel sort of an otherness, a separateness.
00:20:05.560 And that can breed problems.
00:20:08.360 Why is that, Julia?
00:20:09.440 Let's double-click on that, because we spend a lot of time in America,
00:20:12.640 and I don't see that in America.
00:20:13.880 America's got a very different attitude.
00:20:15.100 Look, you know, I went to school in America.
00:20:16.960 My mother lived there for a bit,
00:20:18.820 and we used to have to salute the flag
00:20:21.280 and sing the national anthem every morning,
00:20:22.840 with my hand on my chest and sing the national anthem.
00:20:25.580 And I said, well, I'm not American.
00:20:26.780 I mean, I was seven, eight, nine.
00:20:27.760 My mum said, yeah, but we're in America.
00:20:29.040 You do what, you know, you do what the deal is there.
00:20:32.800 It's about, you know, you're not, you know, a Muslim.
00:20:36.300 You know, you're a Muslim American.
00:20:37.640 You're an Arab American.
00:20:38.720 You're an Italian American.
00:20:40.120 You're African American.
00:20:41.420 It's very much, but you're American.
00:20:42.880 You're American.
00:20:43.720 It's a much prouder sort of thing.
00:20:45.580 I think one of the biggest issues we got,
00:20:47.340 and I don't think it's just the demographics,
00:20:48.640 because that's, I don't, I'm not a,
00:20:50.020 I'm not a, ooh, all our problems come from immigration.
00:20:52.340 Rubbish.
00:20:52.880 No, they don't.
00:20:53.680 Our problems are homegrown.
00:20:55.060 Fundamentally, our problems are homegrown.
00:20:56.580 I think it's in a political, media, academic elite,
00:21:01.660 who, and public sector elite as well,
00:21:04.740 and actually you can add in quite a lot of the private sector as well,
00:21:06.700 this elite who are just completely out of touch
00:21:09.040 with mainstream British opinion.
00:21:12.720 I think the vast majority of what most people think in the country,
00:21:16.060 who are signed up to an idea that everything about Britain's past,
00:21:21.420 everything about Britain's values,
00:21:23.380 everything about the white indigenous native population is wrong.
00:21:28.620 It's bad.
00:21:29.720 It's shameful.
00:21:31.240 Our colonial past is terrible.
00:21:33.720 Not only did we colonize the world and we enslaved people,
00:21:37.700 forget the fact that we were the first empire to end slavery,
00:21:40.820 then you get some value points for that.
00:21:42.500 No.
00:21:43.460 The fact that, you know, the Industrial Revolution,
00:21:45.680 we're responsible for more global emissions
00:21:48.640 because we invented the Industrial Revolution.
00:21:50.480 Oh, well, the reason why we're all alive right now and not dead
00:21:53.500 because we didn't have modern medicine
00:21:55.580 and we don't have, you know, mass production of food
00:21:58.000 and, you know, from fossil fuels.
00:21:59.680 I mean, again, I always say to people, you know,
00:22:01.420 the Industrial Revolution, you're welcome, world.
00:22:03.280 You're welcome.
00:22:04.780 We're...
00:22:05.200 They, not we, they are ashamed of everything.
00:22:08.280 They are moral and cultural relativists.
00:22:12.060 They think that all cultures are equal.
00:22:14.920 Blatantly untrue.
00:22:16.420 Because you know what?
00:22:17.220 There is not a mass exodus of people
00:22:19.620 from Western liberal democracies
00:22:22.020 desperately trying to get to Saudi Arabia,
00:22:25.160 to Iran, to Russia, to China, to Nigeria.
00:22:28.820 They're not desperately trying to get to those countries.
00:22:31.480 Why not?
00:22:32.360 Because they're coming the other direction.
00:22:33.920 Because we have a superior culture.
00:22:38.020 We have a superior morality.
00:22:40.120 Oh, can't say that.
00:22:41.960 You can't say that.
00:22:42.680 Well, yeah, I can, because it's true.
00:22:45.080 Because a culture where women and men are equal,
00:22:48.400 where gay men are not murdered simply,
00:22:51.260 or gay women for their sexuality,
00:22:53.660 where you're allowed to be of faith or not be of faith,
00:22:57.880 to marry out of your faith, leave your faith,
00:23:01.500 these are basic things which we take for granted in the West.
00:23:06.400 These are entirely new inventions
00:23:08.240 and they're inventions of Western liberal democracy
00:23:10.940 and you've got an entire political, academic, media class
00:23:14.220 who are very uncomfortable about it.
00:23:16.960 Even though they champion those things
00:23:18.320 and they're all, you know, the trans pride flag-waving folk,
00:23:21.800 at the same time, they will say that that morality
00:23:25.080 that enables that freedom in our country,
00:23:28.120 that that somehow is equal with the morality
00:23:30.780 and the culture of a country or a religion
00:23:33.340 or a part of the world where none of that is the case.
00:23:37.180 Now, you cannot hold both of those ideas in your head
00:23:40.580 at the same time and be a coherent human being
00:23:42.400 and yet that's what they're trying to do.
00:23:44.280 They are ashamed of our past, they're ashamed of our present,
00:23:47.960 they're ashamed of the British people,
00:23:49.440 they're ashamed and embarrassed the Emily Thorberry
00:23:51.840 sneering at White Van Man with his England flag.
00:23:55.460 How dare people say the England flag,
00:23:58.080 or even the Union flag, are owned by the far right.
00:24:00.900 How dare you?
00:24:01.820 They are my flags.
00:24:02.960 They represent my nation.
00:24:03.920 They're embarrassed by everything about British people
00:24:07.400 and I think that's how we got here.
00:24:10.700 I think that's how it's all been allowed to happen.
00:24:12.640 That lack of confidence in ourselves
00:24:15.700 is why we don't act correctly and strongly enough perhaps
00:24:20.040 on threats.
00:24:21.340 And we don't stand up for it because people are embarrassed
00:24:23.580 and again, the urge to virtue signal,
00:24:26.060 to say the quote, right thing.
00:24:28.020 I don't think you can underestimate the urge
00:24:30.780 to be thought of as a nice person
00:24:32.540 and invited to the right dinner parties.
00:24:34.180 How important that is.
00:24:35.260 I remember this.
00:24:36.160 When I learnt this, first of all,
00:24:38.100 when I was at the Sunday Express,
00:24:40.540 I was political editor at the Sunday Express
00:24:41.900 and we were constantly told,
00:24:44.040 stuff we were writing about,
00:24:45.920 maybe mass uncontrolled immigration
00:24:48.540 isn't always a good thing.
00:24:50.440 Just going to throw that out there.
00:24:51.780 So this is like, no.
00:24:52.980 Yeah, it turns out, yeah,
00:24:54.060 massive majority public opinion now.
00:24:56.760 When I was campaigning for Brexit in 2016
00:25:00.000 and I would have so many people,
00:25:01.780 I mean, you know,
00:25:02.520 well-known names in the British media and politics
00:25:04.780 who would say to me,
00:25:05.880 but you're one of us.
00:25:07.680 You know, you went to Oxford.
00:25:08.740 You're a clever girl.
00:25:09.560 You're in the media.
00:25:10.360 Surely you don't believe in this stuff.
00:25:14.160 I mean, come on.
00:25:15.140 It's like, yeah,
00:25:16.400 I believe in democratically elected parliaments
00:25:20.120 and governments
00:25:20.860 and self-determination
00:25:23.080 and national sovereignty
00:25:23.920 and they looked at me like I'd said,
00:25:26.120 I mean,
00:25:26.600 the most evil, awful thing in the world.
00:25:29.260 They don't mix with anyone
00:25:31.340 who thinks differently to them
00:25:33.080 and if you do think differently to them,
00:25:35.680 you are cast out.
00:25:36.920 Do you think we're in a moment now
00:25:39.320 where this can't hold on for much longer
00:25:42.640 simply because I think
00:25:44.620 Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter
00:25:46.800 has changed things
00:25:47.980 and you can see with the grooming gangs,
00:25:50.360 which is an issue,
00:25:51.320 I think we should be fair
00:25:52.440 and say it was an issue
00:25:53.800 that was both exposed
00:25:54.960 and covered by the mainstream media
00:25:56.600 for quite some time.
00:25:57.440 Well, I mean,
00:25:57.840 this idea that Tommy Robinson exposed it,
00:25:59.960 no, he's sodding well, didn't.
00:26:01.320 Andrew Norfolk at the Times,
00:26:02.800 you know, people like Maggie Oliver.
00:26:04.080 On the one hand.
00:26:05.580 On the other hand,
00:26:06.840 certainly I would say
00:26:07.960 it was not covered nearly enough
00:26:09.320 and consistently for a long time
00:26:11.000 and what we then saw is
00:26:12.400 Elon Musk and others
00:26:15.120 amplifying the voices of survivors
00:26:17.420 and campaigners, etc., online
00:26:19.360 and so now
00:26:21.260 it's starting to feel to me
00:26:23.240 like because of that freedom,
00:26:25.300 you can't really keep the lid down
00:26:27.840 on all this stuff anymore.
00:26:28.680 I think two things have happened.
00:26:30.220 One is
00:26:30.760 when you've called everyone far right,
00:26:33.880 I mean,
00:26:34.180 then it has no meaning anymore
00:26:35.340 and people,
00:26:35.920 you know,
00:26:36.040 the Dominic Frisbee song,
00:26:37.080 we're all far right now,
00:26:38.460 but that's it.
00:26:39.200 Okay,
00:26:39.540 we're just going to laugh back at you.
00:26:41.320 It doesn't...
00:26:41.920 Those words,
00:26:43.340 the racism,
00:26:44.280 bigotry,
00:26:44.780 those words don't have the power anymore
00:26:47.580 to shut people down.
00:26:49.000 People,
00:26:49.420 no,
00:26:49.800 I'm not having it,
00:26:50.760 you know,
00:26:51.220 but I agree with you on X
00:26:53.200 and the freedom,
00:26:54.240 I mean,
00:26:54.540 on so many different issues to talk,
00:26:56.300 but I think also
00:26:57.300 there's been an emperor's
00:26:59.220 new clothes moment.
00:27:00.340 You know,
00:27:01.240 suddenly the crowd
00:27:02.600 has stopped shouting
00:27:03.580 for just long enough
00:27:04.520 for us to all hear
00:27:05.200 the little boy go,
00:27:06.880 but the emperor
00:27:08.540 isn't wearing any clothes.
00:27:10.580 But what you've been telling us
00:27:12.060 for years isn't true.
00:27:15.040 You've been failing us.
00:27:16.480 You've been lying to us
00:27:17.500 and failing us,
00:27:18.820 telling us what you think
00:27:19.660 we want to hear
00:27:20.280 and then abusing us.
00:27:21.620 I mean,
00:27:21.920 we've been in a...
00:27:23.220 The British people
00:27:24.040 have been in an abusive,
00:27:25.320 coercive relationship
00:27:26.540 with the British state
00:27:28.140 for the last 20,
00:27:29.400 30 years.
00:27:30.540 We have been groomed.
00:27:33.500 No, seriously,
00:27:34.220 we have been
00:27:34.840 sort of controlled
00:27:36.920 and patted on the head
00:27:38.900 and talked,
00:27:39.240 there, there, there,
00:27:39.960 don't worry,
00:27:40.320 no, no, no,
00:27:40.940 we'll deal with that.
00:27:41.960 Don't you worry
00:27:42.360 you're pretty light heads.
00:27:43.100 And then the exact opposite
00:27:44.160 has been done
00:27:44.640 and we've been gaslighted
00:27:45.500 and we go,
00:27:45.980 oh, but you haven't done
00:27:46.580 what you said you'd do.
00:27:48.060 Yeah, we have.
00:27:49.400 Yeah, we have.
00:27:50.560 And I just think
00:27:51.600 there are just sometimes
00:27:53.120 these little moments
00:27:54.300 where everyone goes,
00:27:56.340 hold on a minute.
00:27:58.040 And the truth is out,
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00:29:31.680 The worrying thing is, Julia,
00:29:33.460 is I was looking at polls
00:29:34.860 the other day
00:29:35.560 where it was showing
00:29:36.240 that the Gen Z's faith
00:29:38.220 in democracy
00:29:39.120 Oh, terrifying.
00:29:40.440 is at rock bottom.
00:29:42.180 And then the part of me
00:29:43.620 the outraged millennial
00:29:45.780 was like,
00:29:46.240 well, young people.
00:29:47.240 And then I thought,
00:29:48.460 well, let's look at it
00:29:49.240 from the perspective
00:29:49.940 of first principles.
00:29:51.500 Yeah.
00:29:52.480 You voted
00:29:53.280 to lower immigration.
00:29:55.020 Immigration hasn't gone down.
00:29:56.200 By the way,
00:29:56.540 Gen Z didn't vote for that.
00:29:57.620 Yeah, but we voted.
00:29:58.880 They're what,
00:29:59.400 like 30 to 17-year-olds?
00:30:01.480 27-year-olds?
00:30:02.120 Something like that, yeah.
00:30:03.000 But we voted
00:30:04.000 to lower immigration.
00:30:04.960 Immigration wasn't lowered.
00:30:06.840 In fact,
00:30:07.500 it was raised
00:30:08.180 time and time
00:30:09.500 and time again.
00:30:10.920 Policies that we demanded
00:30:12.220 have not only been ignored,
00:30:15.000 they have also done
00:30:16.100 the exact opposite.
00:30:17.500 So when Gen Z
00:30:18.340 turned around and go,
00:30:19.480 I don't really have
00:30:21.860 an argument,
00:30:22.380 do you?
00:30:23.360 I do.
00:30:23.960 I do.
00:30:24.360 Because as I said,
00:30:25.080 there's a reason why people,
00:30:26.260 everyone talks about
00:30:26.780 strong-round politics,
00:30:27.820 but no one is moving
00:30:28.940 to those countries
00:30:29.860 desperate to make
00:30:30.620 a new life there.
00:30:31.360 They want to come to democracy.
00:30:32.600 As Winston Churchill
00:30:33.500 famously said,
00:30:34.280 democracy is the worst
00:30:35.440 form of government
00:30:36.020 apart from all the others.
00:30:37.020 I mean,
00:30:38.780 again,
00:30:39.100 one of the reasons
00:30:39.500 I was a Brexiteer,
00:30:40.500 you know,
00:30:40.680 I want democratic
00:30:41.420 accountability.
00:30:42.380 So my thing was,
00:30:43.040 I didn't think that
00:30:44.020 us not being ruled
00:30:45.320 by Brussels
00:30:45.960 was going to
00:30:46.860 immediately make
00:30:47.900 Britain a better place
00:30:48.800 and get more
00:30:49.280 accountable policies.
00:30:50.660 My thing was,
00:30:51.620 yeah,
00:30:51.920 but when they
00:30:52.520 bugger it up,
00:30:53.520 as I know they will
00:30:54.540 under Boris Johnson,
00:30:56.020 Liz Druss,
00:30:56.540 and Rishi Sunak,
00:30:57.500 and Kirsten,
00:30:58.080 and everyone else,
00:30:59.120 at least we can blame them
00:31:00.820 and they can't say,
00:31:02.280 what can I do?
00:31:03.680 Brussels wouldn't let us do it.
00:31:04.900 Those are the EU rules.
00:31:05.800 I want to know,
00:31:06.960 you know,
00:31:07.200 you're accountable to me.
00:31:08.820 I'm a voter.
00:31:09.540 You're accountable to me,
00:31:10.780 not to them,
00:31:11.600 and I want you to act.
00:31:12.520 And when you fail to act,
00:31:13.360 you will be punished,
00:31:14.000 which is why the Tories
00:31:14.840 are not in power
00:31:15.460 and why Labour is in power now.
00:31:17.160 Let me push back on that.
00:31:18.900 What about,
00:31:19.740 okay,
00:31:20.100 the kid will go,
00:31:20.840 right,
00:31:21.020 what about illegal immigration,
00:31:22.300 Julia?
00:31:22.700 We've done nothing to solve it
00:31:24.120 and whenever we've tried
00:31:25.220 to do something,
00:31:26.600 it's a European...
00:31:27.560 That is actually not true.
00:31:29.200 We have processed
00:31:30.160 lots of assignments
00:31:30.960 by granting them all.
00:31:33.520 Yeah,
00:31:33.840 yeah,
00:31:34.380 yeah.
00:31:34.700 That one,
00:31:35.900 then it solved it.
00:31:36.620 Then they don't know.
00:31:37.060 Yeah, yeah,
00:31:37.240 there's no more backlash.
00:31:38.620 But it's a European Court
00:31:39.840 of Human Rights.
00:31:40.420 No,
00:31:40.520 but democracy does not ensure
00:31:41.940 that you get everything
00:31:42.660 you want from any government
00:31:44.020 or that they will do
00:31:44.900 what you want.
00:31:45.460 What it ensures is
00:31:46.200 you get to get rid of them
00:31:47.400 when they fail.
00:31:48.080 So Tories have failed,
00:31:49.520 Labour will fail.
00:31:50.660 Okay,
00:31:51.040 well,
00:31:51.200 who do we choose next time?
00:31:52.220 Well,
00:31:52.500 the Tories aren't going
00:31:53.180 to get back in
00:31:53.760 unless the Tories
00:31:54.420 are believable
00:31:55.780 that they will actually
00:31:56.780 take on those issues
00:31:58.660 that they've failed
00:31:59.320 on in the last 14 years.
00:32:02.500 Reform need to be viable.
00:32:04.880 Realistically,
00:32:05.500 we need to probably see
00:32:06.700 a uniting of the right
00:32:08.440 in whatever form
00:32:09.320 to defeat Labour
00:32:10.580 on that front.
00:32:11.380 Do I trust any of them
00:32:12.320 right now?
00:32:12.900 No,
00:32:13.200 I don't.
00:32:13.660 But you know what?
00:32:14.480 That doesn't mean
00:32:15.240 democracy doesn't work.
00:32:16.120 But what I found most
00:32:16.920 worrying about that
00:32:17.580 is that,
00:32:18.260 you say,
00:32:18.560 it was like 52%
00:32:20.360 of young people
00:32:21.420 basically said
00:32:22.160 they didn't see
00:32:23.380 the point of democracy
00:32:24.080 and our country
00:32:24.780 would do better
00:32:25.340 under a strong man,
00:32:26.540 a strong leader
00:32:27.140 who didn't have to,
00:32:28.120 you know,
00:32:28.900 deal with voters
00:32:29.660 and elections,
00:32:30.540 which is all very well.
00:32:31.740 But again,
00:32:32.360 you can actually
00:32:33.600 have someone
00:32:33.960 who can drive the economy.
00:32:34.780 I mean,
00:32:34.900 look at China
00:32:35.500 under Xi Jinping.
00:32:36.820 The economy's
00:32:37.520 booming forward.
00:32:38.840 Yeah,
00:32:39.240 and sorry about
00:32:39.940 all the people
00:32:40.440 who were in prison
00:32:41.100 and the people
00:32:41.940 in the slave labour camps
00:32:43.280 and people who get,
00:32:44.620 you know,
00:32:45.040 beaten and tortured
00:32:45.720 and disappeared
00:32:46.460 because they talk
00:32:47.840 about democracy.
00:32:48.680 You know,
00:32:48.960 sorry about those people.
00:32:50.540 People are under
00:32:51.080 a complete illusion.
00:32:51.880 And again,
00:32:52.300 that is part of the whole,
00:32:53.940 the elites,
00:32:55.100 the ruling classes,
00:32:56.500 not defending our values,
00:32:58.040 not defending
00:32:58.780 freedom of speech.
00:33:00.380 freedom of thought.
00:33:02.820 Yeah,
00:33:03.000 remember,
00:33:03.300 whoever thought
00:33:03.800 that would be an issue,
00:33:04.940 not defending democracy,
00:33:07.280 the importance of voting,
00:33:08.760 not defending
00:33:09.460 these fundamental
00:33:10.500 basic tenets
00:33:12.000 of Western liberal democracy,
00:33:14.560 thinking that
00:33:15.240 it doesn't really matter,
00:33:16.800 you know,
00:33:17.100 and it does.
00:33:18.180 And these things
00:33:18.980 need defending
00:33:19.720 every generation.
00:33:21.820 But if you've got a,
00:33:22.820 you've got a class
00:33:23.580 that are in charge
00:33:24.200 of the national conversation
00:33:25.580 who don't actually
00:33:27.580 really believe
00:33:28.600 in any of those things,
00:33:29.880 if when you do have,
00:33:31.220 you know,
00:33:31.480 the biggest national
00:33:32.440 public vote
00:33:32.980 for anything
00:33:33.460 ever in this country
00:33:35.180 for Brexit
00:33:35.900 and you,
00:33:37.020 if you're the Prime Minister now,
00:33:38.400 Keir Starmer,
00:33:38.840 spend four years
00:33:39.680 of your life
00:33:40.200 trying to stop that
00:33:41.080 from happening
00:33:41.680 to undermine
00:33:42.420 a democratic vote,
00:33:43.860 you're saying that
00:33:44.840 it doesn't matter.
00:33:46.900 I mean,
00:33:47.160 it's untenable.
00:33:49.080 These people think
00:33:49.680 that Donald Trump
00:33:50.260 is unfit
00:33:50.840 for public office
00:33:51.600 because of what he did
00:33:52.280 to try and overturn
00:33:52.960 the 2020 election.
00:33:54.160 And I would agree
00:33:54.780 with them on that front,
00:33:55.900 even though I massively
00:33:57.120 welcome him getting elected
00:33:58.740 this time round,
00:34:00.080 given the options available.
00:34:01.560 Keir Starmer
00:34:02.220 spent exactly
00:34:03.540 the same amount of time
00:34:04.260 doing exactly
00:34:04.820 the same thing.
00:34:06.040 I mean,
00:34:06.300 but apparently
00:34:07.060 he's all right
00:34:08.300 because he was doing
00:34:09.040 it on the left.
00:34:11.040 I just think
00:34:12.360 there is absolutely
00:34:13.160 an answer
00:34:13.660 to those teenagers
00:34:14.620 and those 25-year-olds
00:34:16.140 to say that,
00:34:17.080 no,
00:34:17.520 what we,
00:34:18.360 our values
00:34:19.080 and our system
00:34:19.740 is,
00:34:20.380 it's not perfect,
00:34:21.760 but it's better
00:34:22.720 than the alternatives.
00:34:23.680 I do agree with you.
00:34:25.240 But then when we talk,
00:34:26.960 for instance,
00:34:27.400 we interviewed Liz Truss
00:34:28.720 in this very room
00:34:29.500 and she said
00:34:30.560 that she couldn't do anything
00:34:31.860 because of the civil servants,
00:34:34.280 that they try
00:34:35.080 and implement policies
00:34:36.300 and that the civil service
00:34:37.720 rebuff them.
00:34:38.440 Then you go,
00:34:39.380 well,
00:34:39.640 do we actually live
00:34:40.480 in a democracy
00:34:41.100 or do we have
00:34:42.360 this unelected,
00:34:43.320 unaccountable blob
00:34:44.580 who are actually in charge?
00:34:46.800 Well,
00:34:46.840 we do,
00:34:47.240 but here's the thing,
00:34:47.880 let's get rid of them
00:34:48.420 and I love that.
00:34:49.200 It's one of the things that,
00:34:50.020 well,
00:34:50.420 we're told we've got
00:34:51.160 this world-class,
00:34:52.680 first-class,
00:34:53.560 you know,
00:34:54.060 civil service.
00:34:55.180 I mean,
00:34:55.500 they kind of forget,
00:34:56.480 you know,
00:34:56.640 you're civil servants.
00:34:58.300 You're civil,
00:34:59.040 so you're not political
00:34:59.880 and you're servants.
00:35:01.520 You don't get to decide.
00:35:02.900 You advise,
00:35:03.820 you give information
00:35:04.660 to the person
00:35:05.560 who is elected
00:35:06.240 and we don't have a system
00:35:07.560 where our cabinet ministers
00:35:09.280 are experts in the subject.
00:35:11.120 There's both,
00:35:11.700 the civil servants
00:35:12.420 are supposed to be the experts,
00:35:13.980 but then they,
00:35:14.800 the choices are made
00:35:15.740 by democratically
00:35:16.500 accountable politicians
00:35:17.580 and if they refuse
00:35:18.880 to actually stand by that,
00:35:21.160 on both sides,
00:35:22.200 then yeah,
00:35:22.640 they deserve to be ousted.
00:35:24.380 But I would like
00:35:25.280 a Trumpian type revolution.
00:35:27.400 We literally go,
00:35:28.460 you know,
00:35:28.880 if you're not prepared
00:35:29.800 to do what you're told
00:35:30.560 by your cabinet minister,
00:35:31.800 unless,
00:35:32.180 you know,
00:35:32.300 life is at stake,
00:35:33.860 you know,
00:35:34.320 I'm sorry,
00:35:35.500 bye-bye,
00:35:36.100 go and get another job.
00:35:37.800 That you're not welcome here
00:35:38.880 and the ability
00:35:40.260 to hire political activists
00:35:42.480 in those roles
00:35:43.920 because we have
00:35:45.000 a political activist
00:35:45.920 civil service,
00:35:46.940 but they only have
00:35:47.900 one set of views.
00:35:48.860 But I,
00:35:50.820 even if I agreed
00:35:51.720 with everything
00:35:52.240 that the civil service
00:35:53.180 was doing,
00:35:53.640 I still would think
00:35:54.460 it was wrong.
00:35:56.500 And with that in mind,
00:35:58.580 I don't see either
00:35:59.880 the Tories or Labour
00:36:00.780 obviously doing anything
00:36:01.720 about that.
00:36:03.260 And reform are interesting
00:36:04.820 in only,
00:36:06.320 if only in the sense
00:36:07.760 that they seem to be,
00:36:09.060 according to some polls
00:36:10.300 this week,
00:36:11.060 number one in the polls.
00:36:13.300 What do you make
00:36:14.220 of them?
00:36:15.160 And you mentioned
00:36:16.100 that the only way
00:36:16.760 for them to succeed
00:36:17.440 would be to unite.
00:36:18.820 Well, not only way,
00:36:19.700 but it looks like.
00:36:20.640 It looks like it
00:36:21.360 at this point.
00:36:21.900 It's early on.
00:36:22.580 But the thing that I find
00:36:23.920 kind of interesting
00:36:25.060 is just talking to people
00:36:26.780 on both sides
00:36:27.520 of that divide.
00:36:28.900 They hate each other
00:36:29.920 as only next door neighbours can.
00:36:31.520 Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:32.940 So that doesn't seem
00:36:34.840 like a likely outcome.
00:36:36.100 It doesn't.
00:36:36.500 And Nigel Farage feels like
00:36:37.540 he had his fingers burnt
00:36:38.880 back in 2019.
00:36:40.080 Everyone forgets
00:36:40.940 the reason why Boris Johnson
00:36:42.120 got an 80 majority
00:36:43.640 was A,
00:36:44.300 he was up against
00:36:44.960 Jeremy Corbyn,
00:36:46.160 and B,
00:36:47.980 because reform stood down
00:36:49.400 some sort of 250 candidates
00:36:51.420 and gave the Tories
00:36:52.520 a clear run.
00:36:53.680 Nigel Farage said
00:36:54.320 he had his fingers burnt
00:36:55.040 then.
00:36:55.240 He wasn't happy
00:36:55.760 with the Brexit deal
00:36:56.480 that Boris Johnson did.
00:36:58.020 His hands were remarkably
00:36:59.160 tied by Theresa May
00:37:00.620 before that.
00:37:01.720 So I'm not sure
00:37:02.140 that's completely fair
00:37:03.500 criticism.
00:37:05.220 But fundamentally,
00:37:06.020 he says,
00:37:06.240 no, thanks.
00:37:07.960 I'm not doing it anymore.
00:37:08.980 And to a certain extent,
00:37:09.800 the party,
00:37:11.120 as the Tories are now,
00:37:12.560 I can't see how they can
00:37:14.520 actually unite
00:37:15.540 with reform.
00:37:16.880 I mean,
00:37:17.120 Kenny Bagnock
00:37:18.020 has made it very clear
00:37:19.200 that's not what she's going.
00:37:20.660 But I think also
00:37:21.400 so many Tory MPs
00:37:23.060 are,
00:37:24.380 I mean,
00:37:24.600 they could be Lib Dems.
00:37:25.900 But they could be Lib Dems.
00:37:27.100 A lot of them went off
00:37:27.900 to be Lib Dems.
00:37:29.020 I won't tell you
00:37:30.440 who said this exactly,
00:37:31.580 but I happen to be...
00:37:33.280 Will I be able to guess?
00:37:34.580 I don't think you will,
00:37:35.520 because there's quite a lot
00:37:36.420 of people who fit this
00:37:37.300 description,
00:37:37.880 because a Tory MP,
00:37:39.800 when I asked him
00:37:40.680 in a private conversation
00:37:42.180 why they lost
00:37:43.620 the last election,
00:37:44.960 he went,
00:37:45.540 oh yeah,
00:37:45.760 we lost to the Lib Dems,
00:37:46.840 we need to move
00:37:47.420 to the left.
00:37:48.100 Yeah, I know.
00:37:48.640 It's literally like...
00:37:50.140 And there's quite a lot
00:37:51.280 of those people.
00:37:51.960 And this is what people
00:37:52.640 say to me...
00:37:53.160 Well, you don't win
00:37:53.700 elections anywhere,
00:37:54.540 but the centre ground
00:37:55.360 comes in.
00:37:56.240 But here's the thing,
00:37:57.060 they don't know
00:37:57.560 where the centre...
00:37:57.960 They think the centre ground
00:37:59.140 is what is actually
00:38:00.240 an extreme leftist position.
00:38:02.800 The British public
00:38:03.740 aren't extreme...
00:38:04.520 Actually, they're quite
00:38:05.400 on the left
00:38:05.960 when it comes to
00:38:06.500 economic policy.
00:38:08.080 Nationalise this,
00:38:08.840 nationalise that,
00:38:09.660 you know,
00:38:10.220 loads of public services
00:38:11.440 and things.
00:38:12.120 But actually,
00:38:13.080 you know,
00:38:13.360 on culture issues,
00:38:15.160 on things like education...
00:38:15.980 The British public
00:38:16.660 and on remotely
00:38:17.300 left wing...
00:38:17.720 Yeah, on crime
00:38:18.760 and justice
00:38:19.340 and immigration.
00:38:21.020 No, very much
00:38:22.200 centre-right,
00:38:22.920 but centre-right.
00:38:23.720 We've never had
00:38:25.000 a successful
00:38:25.720 hard-right
00:38:27.440 or far-right party
00:38:28.580 in this country.
00:38:29.400 But by the way,
00:38:30.040 the EU is wonderful
00:38:31.240 and lovely.
00:38:32.260 They're far-right
00:38:33.200 and literally,
00:38:34.140 literally far-right,
00:38:35.080 not hard-right,
00:38:35.920 not, you know,
00:38:36.980 anti-immigration parties.
00:38:37.780 I'm talking properly
00:38:38.440 far-right parties
00:38:39.200 do very well.
00:38:40.840 But this is the thing.
00:38:42.360 I just think
00:38:43.180 the Conservatives,
00:38:43.840 they stop being Conservative.
00:38:45.140 Conservative Party members
00:38:46.420 are still Conservative.
00:38:47.820 We're not talking
00:38:48.700 about policies
00:38:49.620 that when reform,
00:38:51.380 their policies,
00:38:52.020 there's not a single
00:38:52.660 reform policy
00:38:53.560 that is not something
00:38:54.900 that would be considered
00:38:55.600 completely reasonable
00:38:57.220 20 or 30 years ago.
00:38:58.820 So do you see that
00:39:01.820 as the vehicle
00:39:02.580 through which
00:39:03.180 our democracy
00:39:04.060 is more reflective
00:39:05.900 of the views
00:39:06.440 of the public?
00:39:07.260 I mean,
00:39:07.480 it depends,
00:39:08.100 isn't it?
00:39:08.320 What's so different
00:39:09.320 here from the rest
00:39:11.080 of mainland Europe
00:39:12.660 is our voting system.
00:39:14.300 I'm a big fan
00:39:15.100 of First Past the Post.
00:39:16.460 I don't like
00:39:17.220 coalition governments
00:39:17.900 that take six months
00:39:18.800 to put together
00:39:19.500 and can fall apart
00:39:20.420 because the Greens
00:39:21.820 have decided
00:39:22.380 to leave coalition.
00:39:23.580 No, thank you.
00:39:24.440 I want a government.
00:39:26.320 Here's your choice
00:39:27.220 at the election.
00:39:27.780 You know,
00:39:28.320 this or this.
00:39:30.400 I do think
00:39:31.440 the barrier to entry
00:39:34.100 to become
00:39:35.020 a viable opposition
00:39:36.640 or a government
00:39:37.460 for a political party
00:39:38.720 in this country
00:39:39.140 is very high.
00:39:40.920 Perhaps it's not
00:39:41.520 a bad thing
00:39:42.240 that it's very high.
00:39:42.760 You need to be
00:39:43.360 a serious organisation.
00:39:46.000 I think the financial barriers
00:39:47.240 are too high, certainly.
00:39:48.080 And I don't know what,
00:39:49.060 I'm not quite sure yet
00:39:50.000 in my head
00:39:50.320 what we do do about that
00:39:51.520 because I'm not a big fan
00:39:52.340 of multi-billionaires
00:39:53.800 funding political parties
00:39:55.960 in that way.
00:39:56.940 But whichever the parties
00:39:58.400 whether I support or not.
00:39:59.860 But we've seen,
00:40:00.740 I remember you think back
00:40:01.280 like 1983
00:40:01.980 because I am that old,
00:40:03.220 the SDP Liberal Alliance.
00:40:04.800 The SDP got like
00:40:05.520 a handful of seats
00:40:06.780 and they've got
00:40:07.560 sort of 20 odd seats
00:40:08.580 between them
00:40:09.360 with 25% of the vote.
00:40:12.240 You know,
00:40:12.860 and that's easy to do.
00:40:14.240 Lib Dems talked
00:40:14.860 an awful lot about
00:40:15.860 changing the electoral system.
00:40:18.220 They mention it
00:40:18.820 every now and then now
00:40:19.780 but with 70 odd MPs
00:40:21.300 not so bothered anymore.
00:40:22.300 So I think the key thing
00:40:23.720 for reform,
00:40:24.260 reform are going to need
00:40:25.100 to be around the 30% mark
00:40:26.500 to get a serious number
00:40:27.760 of MPs
00:40:28.420 and be a serious force.
00:40:30.020 But I think they're already,
00:40:31.500 their five MPs,
00:40:32.420 I think already are having
00:40:33.280 such an impact
00:40:34.260 by refusing to
00:40:36.140 tow quite literally
00:40:37.640 a party line
00:40:38.620 in the Tories or Labour
00:40:39.740 in not asking
00:40:40.820 difficult questions,
00:40:41.860 in not being afraid
00:40:42.760 of being jeered at
00:40:43.760 or booed
00:40:44.480 or tut-hutted
00:40:46.040 in the Commons
00:40:46.660 and just saying the stuff
00:40:48.200 that people want them to say.
00:40:50.640 I think,
00:40:51.600 I mean,
00:40:51.780 certainly for my audience
00:40:52.640 at Talk,
00:40:53.400 they are absolutely
00:40:54.820 hitting the right note
00:40:56.140 and if they can keep
00:40:57.220 their act together
00:40:58.040 and we don't see
00:40:59.580 some of the sort of
00:41:00.140 selection of candidates
00:41:01.180 that we've seen
00:41:01.660 that's been a disaster
00:41:02.500 in the past,
00:41:03.540 I think they'll go
00:41:04.680 a long way
00:41:05.280 and I can't see,
00:41:07.140 I can't see Nigel Farage
00:41:08.360 being willing to do
00:41:09.300 a deal with the Tories
00:41:11.220 but I equally can't see
00:41:12.760 the Tories being willing
00:41:13.720 to go to reform positions
00:41:15.440 a lot of things
00:41:16.000 or,
00:41:17.140 crucially,
00:41:17.740 even with Kimi Badenock
00:41:18.740 as leader
00:41:19.140 who's someone I do like a lot
00:41:20.480 being thought of
00:41:21.540 as credible on that
00:41:23.220 given everything
00:41:24.500 they've said before
00:41:25.660 and have failed on.
00:41:27.620 And why do you like
00:41:28.320 Kimi Badenock?
00:41:29.540 Because she actually
00:41:30.560 has talked the talk
00:41:31.400 on some key issues.
00:41:34.000 Trans ideology
00:41:35.360 and its attack
00:41:36.300 on women's
00:41:36.880 and girls' safety
00:41:37.780 and rights.
00:41:40.220 She has talked the talk
00:41:40.960 on that
00:41:41.260 and walked the walk
00:41:42.100 on that
00:41:42.400 and stood up on that,
00:41:43.380 gone out of collective
00:41:44.600 cabinet responsibility
00:41:45.780 on that.
00:41:46.380 She has also
00:41:48.760 been very open
00:41:49.780 and again,
00:41:50.380 much easier for her
00:41:51.260 again as a woman
00:41:52.520 of Nigerian descent
00:41:53.420 to talk about
00:41:55.200 cultural issues
00:41:56.840 and stuff
00:41:57.380 and be open
00:41:58.260 about that
00:41:58.700 and say we need
00:41:59.440 to tackle that
00:41:59.980 and I like her
00:42:00.660 for that.
00:42:01.660 I'd love to know
00:42:02.420 where she was
00:42:02.840 during lockdown.
00:42:04.680 Where people stood
00:42:06.580 in lockdown
00:42:07.000 is still a big
00:42:08.620 determinant for me.
00:42:11.160 Did you fight
00:42:12.060 against Brexit
00:42:12.760 after it had been
00:42:13.400 voted for?
00:42:14.240 Are you a Democrat?
00:42:14.860 That's simple as that.
00:42:16.120 No, Liberal Democrats,
00:42:17.060 neither Liberal
00:42:17.440 nor Democrat.
00:42:18.120 Done.
00:42:19.340 People who kept
00:42:20.380 quiet on lockdown
00:42:21.340 long after it was
00:42:22.760 blatantly obvious
00:42:24.520 that lockdown,
00:42:25.680 by the way,
00:42:26.100 this was around
00:42:26.640 June 2020,
00:42:27.760 if you were still
00:42:28.720 not campaigning
00:42:29.880 against lockdown
00:42:30.500 in early 2021,
00:42:33.060 I want to know
00:42:33.880 where you were
00:42:34.340 and I want to know
00:42:34.760 your reasoning
00:42:35.240 because unless you
00:42:35.840 were trapped
00:42:36.180 underneath something
00:42:36.920 heavy
00:42:37.300 and unable to reach
00:42:39.440 a telephone
00:42:39.900 or a Zoom call,
00:42:41.080 then I want to know
00:42:41.620 where you were.
00:42:43.240 It's a good proxy
00:42:44.100 for independent
00:42:44.820 thought,
00:42:45.360 isn't it?
00:42:46.040 But also
00:42:46.640 the willingness
00:42:47.920 to say stuff
00:42:49.920 that's unpopular
00:42:51.080 at the time,
00:42:51.620 but that is right.
00:42:52.980 Yes,
00:42:53.760 absolutely.
00:42:55.780 It's interesting.
00:42:57.480 Yes,
00:42:58.400 sorry,
00:42:58.840 I've lost my train
00:42:59.400 of thought.
00:43:00.020 Go ahead.
00:43:01.280 You can't get
00:43:01.880 the quality of
00:43:02.540 questions.
00:43:04.260 You know what
00:43:05.040 the problem is
00:43:05.760 and there's
00:43:06.600 something else
00:43:07.280 that I think,
00:43:08.200 this is actually
00:43:09.120 one of the main
00:43:09.760 reasons I voted
00:43:10.680 Remain.
00:43:11.060 It's not because
00:43:12.080 I didn't agree
00:43:13.180 with some of the
00:43:13.680 arguments for Brexit.
00:43:15.360 It's not because
00:43:16.180 I didn't think
00:43:17.640 that if it was
00:43:18.780 handled capably
00:43:20.040 it would be a success.
00:43:22.080 There are perfectly
00:43:22.360 good reasons
00:43:22.820 to have voted Remain.
00:43:24.020 But my problem
00:43:25.520 was I looked
00:43:26.700 at our politicians
00:43:29.400 and I go,
00:43:30.620 none of you
00:43:31.200 are competent
00:43:32.180 enough to be able
00:43:32.980 to deliver this.
00:43:33.680 But you thought
00:43:34.300 the European
00:43:34.740 commissioners were?
00:43:35.740 The status
00:43:39.140 quote for me
00:43:39.800 was better
00:43:40.380 than the
00:43:42.080 calibre.
00:43:43.200 I said,
00:43:43.760 genuinely,
00:43:44.240 and I know I
00:43:44.580 popped on it
00:43:45.000 a couple of times
00:43:45.340 because I do
00:43:45.740 think that was
00:43:46.240 a really telling
00:43:46.780 moment in
00:43:47.180 modern history.
00:43:49.920 There's not a
00:43:50.640 single day when
00:43:51.560 I would not put
00:43:52.180 that in my top
00:43:52.740 10 greatest
00:43:53.220 days of my life.
00:43:54.440 I've had some
00:43:55.100 great days.
00:43:56.420 But I don't
00:43:57.500 want to talk
00:43:57.840 about Brexit
00:43:58.260 because for me
00:43:59.200 it's done and
00:44:00.040 whatever else.
00:44:00.940 I'm talking
00:44:01.640 about calibre
00:44:03.200 of politicians.
00:44:04.600 I'm talking
00:44:04.980 about competition
00:44:05.720 when people
00:44:06.800 talk about
00:44:07.280 the poor
00:44:07.620 calibre of
00:44:08.060 British
00:44:08.260 politicians
00:44:08.740 and people
00:44:09.260 say,
00:44:09.640 when are you
00:44:10.060 going to
00:44:10.260 rob politics?
00:44:10.760 I couldn't
00:44:11.140 tell the line.
00:44:11.840 There's no way.
00:44:12.640 There's no way.
00:44:13.500 I mean,
00:44:13.920 my skeletons
00:44:14.400 in my closet,
00:44:15.140 they're mostly
00:44:16.020 out and about,
00:44:16.660 I'm pretty sure.
00:44:17.720 I just think
00:44:18.360 it's a terrible
00:44:18.880 life.
00:44:19.840 I can see a
00:44:20.380 point when
00:44:20.640 I go,
00:44:21.180 right,
00:44:21.400 I'm done,
00:44:22.100 I'm going
00:44:22.500 in,
00:44:22.820 I'm going
00:44:23.060 to have
00:44:23.260 to do this.
00:44:24.080 But we
00:44:25.460 criticise
00:44:26.180 politicians,
00:44:26.800 but we don't
00:44:27.180 do it
00:44:27.460 ourselves.
00:44:27.980 And also
00:44:28.260 people expect
00:44:28.940 politicians to
00:44:29.660 have this
00:44:30.320 perfect,
00:44:30.740 squeaky,
00:44:31.060 clean life
00:44:31.760 or to never
00:44:32.680 say anything.
00:44:32.980 I don't.
00:44:33.520 Most people
00:44:33.940 do it.
00:44:34.380 Never to say
00:44:35.180 anything slightly
00:44:35.920 wrong,
00:44:36.900 never to have
00:44:38.400 a gaffe.
00:44:39.080 I mean,
00:44:39.640 people have
00:44:40.200 such ridiculously
00:44:41.240 high expectations
00:44:42.100 of politicians.
00:44:43.100 And I know
00:44:43.520 people go,
00:44:43.900 oh,
00:44:43.920 they're paid so
00:44:44.520 much.
00:44:45.040 Not compared
00:44:45.720 to actually
00:44:46.240 not very well.
00:44:47.280 They're not paid
00:44:48.060 well at all.
00:44:48.260 They're not paid
00:44:48.680 well at all.
00:44:48.980 Exactly.
00:44:49.500 They're not.
00:44:50.300 For that job?
00:44:51.000 For that job?
00:44:51.600 Seven days a week?
00:44:52.440 I wouldn't do it
00:44:53.000 for ten times
00:44:53.640 what they're paid.
00:44:54.140 No,
00:44:54.300 it's a rotten job.
00:44:55.280 And I think,
00:44:55.960 you know,
00:44:56.240 we have to,
00:44:57.260 you know,
00:44:57.600 if you're not
00:44:57.980 going to stand
00:44:58.480 yourself,
00:44:59.800 I don't think
00:45:00.280 that's a fair
00:45:00.740 criticism.
00:45:01.560 Interesting.
00:45:02.080 I mean,
00:45:02.340 that is a fair,
00:45:03.140 my line on that,
00:45:04.760 slightly more cowardly
00:45:06.040 perhaps,
00:45:06.420 is that we should
00:45:07.060 pay them a lot
00:45:07.980 more and then
00:45:09.200 we would attract
00:45:09.820 higher calibre
00:45:10.420 people.
00:45:10.880 I don't think
00:45:11.340 it's to pay
00:45:11.780 for people a lot.
00:45:12.500 I think it's a lot
00:45:12.900 for people now.
00:45:14.000 You pay people
00:45:14.600 a million pounds
00:45:15.180 a year,
00:45:15.460 you're going
00:45:15.700 to get a trust.
00:45:16.620 I don't want
00:45:17.300 people motivated
00:45:18.020 by a million pounds
00:45:18.700 a year.
00:45:18.980 I'd like people
00:45:19.340 motivated by doing
00:45:20.540 something.
00:45:21.160 Because I don't
00:45:21.620 think money
00:45:22.060 is everyone's
00:45:22.680 motivation.
00:45:23.920 And I don't
00:45:24.520 think it should
00:45:24.960 be everyone's
00:45:25.480 motivation.
00:45:26.140 But people who
00:45:26.620 could make a million
00:45:27.780 pounds running a
00:45:28.860 business.
00:45:29.320 But a lot of
00:45:29.660 these people have.
00:45:30.320 There are loads
00:45:30.680 of MPs on both
00:45:31.580 sides who've
00:45:31.980 actually made a
00:45:32.420 load of money.
00:45:32.840 Now they want
00:45:33.180 to go into
00:45:33.440 politics.
00:45:33.980 But then people
00:45:34.500 slag off someone
00:45:35.260 like Rishi Sunak.
00:45:36.180 Oh, isn't it
00:45:36.780 awful?
00:45:37.060 You're so rich.
00:45:38.360 I haven't got an
00:45:39.120 issue with someone
00:45:39.600 being rich wanting
00:45:40.260 to go into
00:45:40.580 politics.
00:45:41.580 That's a harder
00:45:42.260 life.
00:45:42.720 I think it's the
00:45:43.260 life.
00:45:43.540 I think it's the
00:45:44.080 judgment.
00:45:44.460 But we need to be
00:45:45.340 holding them to
00:45:45.960 account for the
00:45:46.880 right stuff and not
00:45:48.340 the stuff that
00:45:48.800 doesn't matter.
00:45:50.080 On that, actually,
00:45:51.480 what I know my
00:45:52.240 train of thought
00:45:52.700 has come back to
00:45:53.360 me.
00:45:53.980 I've seen some
00:45:55.020 interesting moves
00:45:56.320 from the Labour
00:45:56.900 government in
00:45:59.040 terms of West
00:45:59.760 Streeting and
00:46:00.560 puberty blockers.
00:46:02.340 In terms of
00:46:03.480 Keir Starmer
00:46:04.020 saying we're not
00:46:04.580 going to be
00:46:04.880 climate extremists,
00:46:06.100 although I think
00:46:06.600 they probably are.
00:46:07.920 But there is a
00:46:10.240 they're attacking
00:46:11.420 the Tories for
00:46:12.260 immigration.
00:46:13.340 It sort of feels
00:46:14.540 to me like he's
00:46:16.800 trying to reposition
00:46:17.980 his party as a
00:46:18.940 more centrist.
00:46:19.920 You're shaking
00:46:20.480 your head.
00:46:20.780 I think this is
00:46:21.300 all absolute
00:46:21.900 bollocks.
00:46:22.540 I think that Keir
00:46:23.240 Starmer doesn't
00:46:23.980 believe anything
00:46:24.480 that he says.
00:46:25.900 I don't see how
00:46:27.060 you can be, you
00:46:28.160 know, you can't be
00:46:28.880 a man who claims
00:46:30.500 that 99.9% of
00:46:33.040 women don't have
00:46:33.800 a penis, but
00:46:34.480 1% of women do.
00:46:36.060 It means roughly
00:46:36.680 30% of women in
00:46:37.780 this country.
00:46:38.340 I do this at
00:46:39.240 least once a
00:46:39.680 week on my
00:46:40.020 show to
00:46:40.240 take a look.
00:46:40.700 Nope, still
00:46:41.080 haven't grown
00:46:41.420 one.
00:46:41.780 Can't be me.
00:46:42.640 Can anyone
00:46:43.080 else please
00:46:43.580 make a check
00:46:44.120 so we can
00:46:44.440 find these
00:46:44.860 women?
00:46:46.480 This is a
00:46:47.760 man who a
00:46:48.300 few years ago
00:46:48.880 voted against
00:46:49.580 the third
00:46:50.000 runaway at
00:46:50.460 Heathrow, which
00:46:50.860 by the way,
00:46:51.580 has been a
00:46:51.980 political topic
00:46:52.560 not since the
00:46:53.220 day I started
00:46:53.960 as a political
00:46:54.460 journalist, I
00:46:55.420 hate to tell you,
00:46:55.760 30 years ago.
00:46:57.100 It's been a
00:46:57.500 political topic
00:46:58.640 literally since
00:46:59.480 before I was
00:47:00.140 born, for God's
00:47:01.140 sake.
00:47:01.660 He voted
00:47:02.100 against it on
00:47:02.560 the basis that
00:47:03.220 the biggest
00:47:05.060 issue facing
00:47:07.160 Britain was
00:47:08.060 climate change.
00:47:09.180 This man's an
00:47:09.700 idiot.
00:47:09.940 Well, he's
00:47:10.380 either an
00:47:10.700 idiot or he's
00:47:11.380 a liar.
00:47:11.880 I don't know
00:47:12.240 which.
00:47:12.400 I don't think
00:47:13.440 he's an idiot.
00:47:14.040 Well, then we
00:47:14.800 know what he
00:47:15.240 is.
00:47:16.900 He doesn't
00:47:17.720 think that
00:47:18.980 immigration is
00:47:19.820 too high.
00:47:20.780 He doesn't
00:47:21.860 think there's an
00:47:22.320 issue with
00:47:22.840 male rapists
00:47:24.140 being put into
00:47:24.820 women's prison
00:47:25.580 cells.
00:47:26.160 We know he let
00:47:26.720 the Labour Party
00:47:27.320 in Scotland vote
00:47:28.200 for that with the
00:47:28.960 SNP.
00:47:29.960 There are men in
00:47:30.640 prison right now
00:47:31.680 in women's prison
00:47:32.480 cells, right now
00:47:33.600 today in England.
00:47:34.900 That's still
00:47:35.300 happening on his
00:47:35.920 watch.
00:47:36.140 We are in
00:47:38.880 this mad
00:47:39.420 situation where
00:47:40.000 anyone who
00:47:40.380 puts Ed
00:47:40.820 Miliband in as
00:47:41.860 your, and I
00:47:42.580 hate this job
00:47:43.000 title, his
00:47:43.300 job title is
00:47:44.320 Energy Security
00:47:45.540 and Net Zero
00:47:46.340 Secretary.
00:47:46.900 As I've said to
00:47:47.480 every one of the
00:47:48.060 people in that
00:47:48.560 job, Grant
00:47:49.120 Shapps and
00:47:49.540 others, it's
00:47:50.240 energy security
00:47:51.080 or net zero.
00:47:52.480 Pick one.
00:47:53.240 You can't have
00:47:53.880 both.
00:47:54.160 They are mutually
00:47:54.640 exclusive.
00:47:55.460 We've got a
00:47:55.860 prime minister and
00:47:56.540 a chancellor
00:47:57.380 obsessed with
00:47:58.120 growth.
00:47:58.900 I mean, we're
00:47:59.420 not going to
00:47:59.800 see growth,
00:48:00.660 certainly not
00:48:01.020 under these
00:48:01.440 guys.
00:48:01.780 We weren't
00:48:02.360 seeing much
00:48:02.780 under the
00:48:03.080 Tories.
00:48:03.500 You're not
00:48:03.900 going to have
00:48:04.200 growth while
00:48:04.580 you've still
00:48:04.820 got net zero.
00:48:05.560 You have to
00:48:06.080 pick one.
00:48:06.900 Those are
00:48:07.520 mutually exclusive.
00:48:09.000 You're not
00:48:09.200 going to have
00:48:09.480 an AI
00:48:09.840 revolution here
00:48:10.640 when you've
00:48:11.260 got net zero
00:48:11.880 because of the
00:48:12.360 cost of
00:48:12.640 electricity to
00:48:13.260 generate.
00:48:14.040 You need to
00:48:14.380 be generated
00:48:14.900 for it.
00:48:15.560 All of these
00:48:16.160 things are
00:48:17.460 completely mutually
00:48:18.060 exclusive.
00:48:18.940 Again, they're
00:48:19.520 either too
00:48:19.940 stupid to
00:48:20.580 realise that.
00:48:22.140 That's
00:48:22.480 worrying for
00:48:23.640 people who've
00:48:24.120 got great
00:48:24.560 degrees, great
00:48:25.180 universities,
00:48:25.720 they've been
00:48:25.920 very successful
00:48:26.620 or they don't
00:48:30.120 care that they're
00:48:30.780 lying to us.
00:48:32.180 There's a third
00:48:33.900 option.
00:48:34.240 What's the
00:48:34.580 third one?
00:48:35.360 They're
00:48:35.540 ideological.
00:48:36.460 They're
00:48:36.620 staunchly
00:48:37.120 ideological.
00:48:38.060 It's a
00:48:38.280 religion.
00:48:39.020 Which means
00:48:39.780 that you can
00:48:40.220 hold two
00:48:40.760 constructions.
00:48:41.060 But that's
00:48:41.860 also irrational.
00:48:42.840 On all three
00:48:43.580 grounds, I
00:48:44.340 would say,
00:48:45.080 should not be
00:48:45.760 in public
00:48:46.220 office.
00:48:46.640 That I
00:48:47.060 agree with.
00:48:47.680 That said,
00:48:48.240 is that any
00:48:48.820 worse than
00:48:49.360 the Tories
00:48:49.900 talking a good
00:48:50.900 game?
00:48:51.460 Oh, we need
00:48:51.820 to get
00:48:52.000 immigration
00:48:52.420 down.
00:48:52.860 Oh, this
00:48:53.400 trans ideology,
00:48:54.300 oh, this
00:48:54.520 is always
00:48:54.780 terrible.
00:48:55.260 And then doing
00:48:55.760 nothing about
00:48:56.840 it.
00:48:57.000 And I mean
00:48:57.620 nothing about
00:48:58.940 it.
00:48:59.340 And they're
00:48:59.660 the ones I
00:49:00.160 hold
00:49:00.460 responsible on
00:49:01.120 net zero.
00:49:01.760 I mean, why
00:49:02.380 we've got an
00:49:02.820 entire policy to
00:49:03.820 completely ruin
00:49:04.560 our economy
00:49:05.120 because Boris
00:49:06.520 Johnson wanted
00:49:07.120 to get a
00:49:07.480 blowjob from
00:49:08.120 his then
00:49:08.860 girlfriend at
00:49:09.520 the time.
00:49:10.120 I mean, that's
00:49:10.600 basically why we've
00:49:12.680 had a lot of
00:49:13.100 this madness.
00:49:13.760 I mean, it's
00:49:14.100 really that.
00:49:14.520 When you put it
00:49:15.020 like that, it
00:49:15.540 doesn't sound
00:49:16.360 unreasonable.
00:49:16.860 Boris Johnson
00:49:17.600 wasn't a
00:49:19.080 green zealot
00:49:19.760 before he was
00:49:20.220 with Carrie.
00:49:20.900 I mean, no,
00:49:21.300 feds Carrie,
00:49:22.060 but no.
00:49:23.060 Boris Johnson
00:49:23.800 doesn't believe in
00:49:24.520 anything.
00:49:25.000 He never has.
00:49:25.840 Boris Johnson
00:49:26.240 is like Donald
00:49:27.040 Trump.
00:49:27.300 He believes in
00:49:27.900 himself.
00:49:28.280 Not to make
00:49:28.780 it crass, but
00:49:29.340 her blowjob
00:49:29.880 technique must
00:49:30.420 be incredible.
00:49:31.880 It's worth
00:49:32.740 ruining an
00:49:33.200 entire economy.
00:49:33.700 I don't think
00:49:34.360 it's worth
00:49:34.700 de-industrialising
00:49:35.480 Britain for,
00:49:36.300 in fairness.
00:49:36.860 Why do you
00:49:37.420 haven't experienced
00:49:38.000 that?
00:49:38.980 Sorry,
00:49:39.600 Harry.
00:49:40.700 Sorry,
00:49:41.400 Harry.
00:49:42.000 But that's
00:49:42.840 where we are.
00:49:44.000 Policy made up
00:49:44.920 on the hoof,
00:49:45.640 not evidence-based.
00:49:47.260 Again, ideologically
00:49:48.520 driven by wanting
00:49:49.480 to, I go on
00:49:50.460 about this,
00:49:50.940 but I'm telling
00:49:51.460 you, wanting
00:49:52.300 to be seen as
00:49:53.000 the right kind
00:49:53.560 of person at
00:49:54.200 the North London
00:49:54.820 dinner party circuit.
00:49:55.920 It's so true.
00:49:57.300 There's so much
00:49:58.100 of that going
00:49:58.580 on.
00:49:59.240 And I can't
00:50:00.280 reconcile this
00:50:01.100 with the fact
00:50:02.220 that what I said
00:50:03.140 to you earlier,
00:50:03.600 which is when I
00:50:04.040 meet politicians
00:50:04.800 and I hear,
00:50:06.380 or maybe it was
00:50:07.300 in a previous
00:50:07.880 interview,
00:50:08.240 I talked about
00:50:09.100 the fact that
00:50:09.500 when you meet
00:50:09.860 politicians and
00:50:10.460 you really sit
00:50:10.920 down and hear
00:50:11.440 the reason they
00:50:12.320 got into politics.
00:50:12.980 They seem like
00:50:13.360 nice people.
00:50:14.180 They're well
00:50:14.420 intentioned and
00:50:15.160 they really want
00:50:15.640 to help and
00:50:16.100 they really want
00:50:16.520 to make things
00:50:16.960 better.
00:50:17.860 But at the
00:50:18.520 same time,
00:50:19.220 I can't reconcile
00:50:20.300 that with this.
00:50:22.800 It's so pathetic.
00:50:24.260 My view is always,
00:50:24.960 it's like with
00:50:25.780 Ed Miliband.
00:50:26.520 He's got a PPE
00:50:27.260 degree from Oxford,
00:50:28.020 same as me.
00:50:28.420 He's got no more
00:50:29.000 qualifications than
00:50:29.700 I have in the
00:50:30.680 field of,
00:50:31.680 you know,
00:50:32.160 I mean,
00:50:32.640 astrophysics,
00:50:34.300 biology,
00:50:35.040 chemistry,
00:50:35.780 whatever it is,
00:50:36.520 you know,
00:50:36.840 you need to know
00:50:37.460 to understand
00:50:38.060 climate change.
00:50:39.260 He has no more
00:50:39.860 qualifications than
00:50:40.480 me,
00:50:40.620 neither do his
00:50:41.060 advisors,
00:50:41.760 interestingly.
00:50:42.560 But apparently
00:50:43.020 he thinks,
00:50:44.020 you know,
00:50:44.320 that 2 plus 2
00:50:45.460 equals 7,024.
00:50:47.480 I mean,
00:50:47.760 he's mad.
00:50:48.580 He's crazy.
00:50:49.180 It's not possible
00:50:49.900 to look at any
00:50:50.380 of these numbers
00:50:50.820 and to think
00:50:51.280 that his policies
00:50:52.000 make sense.
00:50:52.680 The only thing
00:50:54.420 that we've seen
00:50:54.840 changed in the
00:50:56.060 ludicrous net zero
00:50:56.980 policies,
00:50:57.520 other than the
00:50:57.860 fact that every
00:50:58.800 single year we're
00:50:59.460 going to have a
00:50:59.720 pushing back of
00:51:00.400 things like when
00:51:01.180 you have to have
00:51:01.800 a,
00:51:02.300 when the gas
00:51:03.060 boiler ban does
00:51:03.860 or does not
00:51:04.340 come in or when
00:51:05.000 you have to have
00:51:05.600 these heat pumps
00:51:07.380 that,
00:51:07.840 by the way,
00:51:08.080 don't work in
00:51:08.960 housing like we've
00:51:10.580 got in the UK
00:51:11.320 put in or EV
00:51:13.280 mandates.
00:51:13.960 Everything's going
00:51:14.460 to be pushed
00:51:14.780 back because it's
00:51:15.320 all unachievable
00:51:16.060 and undesirable.
00:51:17.400 But they've
00:51:18.360 managed to change
00:51:19.060 this policy of
00:51:20.400 carbon-free
00:51:21.560 electricity by
00:51:22.920 2030,
00:51:24.180 100% carbon-free.
00:51:25.980 Mad.
00:51:26.700 I mean,
00:51:26.980 insane,
00:51:28.100 unachievable,
00:51:28.980 impossible,
00:51:29.800 even if it was,
00:51:30.640 it'd be too
00:51:30.960 expensive.
00:51:31.820 Insane.
00:51:32.460 But they've now
00:51:33.020 taken it down to
00:51:33.620 95%.
00:51:34.660 Equally insane,
00:51:36.660 unachievable,
00:51:37.400 impossible.
00:51:38.000 But that's where
00:51:39.320 we're going and
00:51:39.780 we're going to be
00:51:40.140 seeing that.
00:51:40.740 It's a lie.
00:51:42.000 They must on
00:51:43.120 some level know
00:51:44.680 it's a lie,
00:51:45.980 but they pursue it
00:51:46.960 anyway.
00:51:47.280 And I think
00:51:47.560 you're right.
00:51:47.920 I think it's
00:51:48.260 kind of a
00:51:48.660 religious
00:51:49.040 zealotry.
00:51:50.480 It's Greta
00:51:51.180 Thunberg is our
00:51:52.340 Joan of Arc
00:51:53.260 sainthood.
00:51:55.100 But we can't
00:51:56.360 continue to be
00:51:57.040 ruled by this.
00:51:58.080 And now people
00:51:59.220 are more and more
00:51:59.780 aware.
00:52:00.320 A few weeks ago
00:52:01.180 we almost had
00:52:01.600 blackouts because
00:52:02.640 the wind wasn't
00:52:03.220 blowing and the
00:52:03.820 sun wasn't
00:52:04.260 shining and we
00:52:05.160 had to pay
00:52:05.580 £2 million an
00:52:06.460 hour for a gas
00:52:07.220 storage station
00:52:08.040 to be put on
00:52:08.700 to make sure
00:52:09.520 that we had
00:52:10.040 enough.
00:52:11.120 We are importing
00:52:12.460 gas from abroad
00:52:14.420 to our country
00:52:16.740 so we don't
00:52:17.560 use our own
00:52:18.180 gas because
00:52:18.800 our wind
00:52:19.480 generator is
00:52:20.440 enough or
00:52:21.140 they have too
00:52:21.720 much we can't
00:52:22.280 store it or
00:52:22.720 our solar power
00:52:23.360 isn't enough to
00:52:24.160 keep our lights
00:52:24.860 on.
00:52:25.420 And at the
00:52:25.680 same time we've
00:52:26.560 got submarines
00:52:27.720 from the Russian
00:52:29.460 Navy patrolling
00:52:30.820 our seas to check
00:52:32.640 where our cables
00:52:33.500 are, electricity
00:52:34.300 and otherwise,
00:52:34.900 so they can cut
00:52:35.760 them in a time
00:52:36.680 of war.
00:52:37.620 But yeah,
00:52:38.260 in no way is
00:52:39.020 this a national
00:52:39.640 security risk.
00:52:40.920 We're one of the
00:52:41.760 world's biggest
00:52:42.280 economies in the
00:52:43.040 21st century.
00:52:44.000 We are literally
00:52:45.280 switching off our
00:52:46.600 ability to create
00:52:47.980 our own electricity
00:52:48.820 and other energy.
00:52:49.960 We have terminated
00:52:50.840 our ability to make
00:52:51.860 virgin steel.
00:52:53.100 That might be useful
00:52:54.180 in a time of war.
00:52:55.260 Do you think?
00:52:56.100 Well, there won't
00:52:56.520 be a war.
00:52:57.200 Sorry, have you
00:52:57.540 seen Ukraine?
00:52:58.400 Have you seen
00:52:58.700 what's happened in
00:52:59.160 the Middle East?
00:52:59.860 Has anyone heard
00:53:00.480 what Xi Jinping's
00:53:01.280 aims are with
00:53:01.860 Taiwan?
00:53:02.520 We are literally,
00:53:03.880 I mean, we're not
00:53:04.700 cutting off our nose
00:53:05.820 to spite our face.
00:53:06.760 We are literally
00:53:07.400 flailing our entire
00:53:09.780 bodies to spite our
00:53:11.960 face.
00:53:12.300 You know, when
00:53:13.580 you were talking
00:53:14.940 about this and
00:53:15.440 you were breaking
00:53:15.980 it down, what it
00:53:17.920 seems to me is
00:53:19.020 that politicians
00:53:20.880 have infantilised
00:53:22.600 all of us.
00:53:24.460 They're not telling
00:53:25.220 us the truth.
00:53:26.060 Yes.
00:53:26.400 They're talking to
00:53:27.120 us like children.
00:53:28.500 And we're living
00:53:29.240 in this very nice
00:53:30.440 fantasy world where
00:53:32.520 Green jobs.
00:53:33.460 Yeah, green jobs
00:53:34.400 where we are going
00:53:35.660 to be able to save
00:53:37.480 the planet.
00:53:38.220 Lead the world.
00:53:38.880 And lead the world.
00:53:40.020 And sorry to say
00:53:42.420 it like this, but it
00:53:43.380 just ain't going to
00:53:43.960 fucking happen.
00:53:44.800 No.
00:53:45.400 And we're in a
00:53:46.420 fantasy land at the
00:53:47.260 moment.
00:53:48.460 We're going to
00:53:49.060 impoverish ourselves.
00:53:50.660 And we're trying to
00:53:51.260 impoverish the third
00:53:52.140 world as well.
00:53:52.900 That's what's even
00:53:53.460 more immoral.
00:53:54.480 Not only making it
00:53:56.260 harder for people.
00:53:57.220 OK, if you're well
00:53:58.260 off, OK, your
00:53:58.840 eating bill goes up.
00:54:00.300 But you can still
00:54:00.900 afford it.
00:54:01.580 Oh, you have to have
00:54:02.100 one less ski holiday.
00:54:02.980 Oh, well, I'm so
00:54:03.720 sorry.
00:54:04.280 If you're genuinely
00:54:05.020 worried about putting
00:54:05.840 the third bar on your
00:54:06.760 gas heater on, you
00:54:08.180 know, that is the
00:54:09.680 difference between
00:54:09.960 living and dying for
00:54:10.960 someone elderly, OK?
00:54:11.940 Or someone disabled.
00:54:13.040 That is that serious.
00:54:14.180 Cold kills.
00:54:14.740 Heat doesn't kill
00:54:15.300 anything.
00:54:16.040 Nine times more people
00:54:17.200 die from cold than
00:54:17.940 die from heat.
00:54:18.460 It's immoral to make
00:54:19.660 energy that expensive.
00:54:21.000 What's even more
00:54:21.900 immoral is to tell the
00:54:23.760 people in the
00:54:24.400 developing world, you
00:54:25.880 must not have the
00:54:27.180 benefits of fossil fuel
00:54:28.520 and industrialisation
00:54:29.800 and modern electricity
00:54:32.200 and cooking facilities
00:54:33.800 and refrigeration.
00:54:34.840 And then you must not
00:54:36.200 have this because
00:54:36.880 saving the planet.
00:54:39.020 It's so deeply
00:54:40.040 immoral.
00:54:40.700 The most moral thing
00:54:41.660 we can do is say
00:54:42.300 plentiful fossil fuels
00:54:44.020 for everyone.
00:54:45.300 Make energy cheap
00:54:46.020 again.
00:54:46.340 I mean, the example
00:54:47.000 I always use is in
00:54:48.100 1947 at the time of
00:54:49.780 partition, average
00:54:51.180 life expectancy in
00:54:52.160 India was 32.
00:54:53.800 Today it's over 70
00:54:55.020 and the reason is
00:54:55.800 they've got richer
00:54:56.460 and the reason is
00:54:57.280 they've been burning
00:54:57.940 fossil fuels.
00:54:59.000 Now you want to tell
00:54:59.840 them half their
00:55:00.880 children need to die
00:55:01.600 in infancy again?
00:55:02.400 That's your moral
00:55:03.140 position.
00:55:03.380 And you want to
00:55:03.840 tell Africa, which is
00:55:04.840 still at that poverty
00:55:05.580 level, that they have
00:55:07.240 to stay there and
00:55:08.620 we'll give you some
00:55:09.220 windmills.
00:55:10.920 I mean, I can't think
00:55:12.900 of anything more
00:55:13.540 immoral.
00:55:14.560 So how do we get
00:55:15.500 out of this, Juliet?
00:55:16.560 Oh God!
00:55:17.860 How are these big
00:55:18.500 questions?
00:55:18.940 Well, yeah, I think
00:55:19.880 it's worth asking.
00:55:21.580 You know, some people
00:55:23.720 I've heard talking
00:55:24.500 about a bounce off the
00:55:25.680 bottom kind of...
00:55:26.620 Do we have to hit
00:55:27.580 rock bottom?
00:55:27.820 We have to hit rock
00:55:28.520 bottom, at which
00:55:29.960 point, you know, it
00:55:31.200 speaks to a lot of
00:55:31.900 conversations we've had
00:55:32.820 with people recently
00:55:33.620 where it just seems
00:55:35.240 to both Francis and
00:55:36.200 I that so many of
00:55:37.880 the problems that our
00:55:39.000 societies now face are
00:55:40.360 about a fundamental
00:55:41.340 unwittingness to face
00:55:42.600 the truth.
00:55:43.200 Yes.
00:55:44.020 And so...
00:55:44.860 But people don't want
00:55:45.840 to.
00:55:46.060 You don't want to hear
00:55:46.920 that there's no...
00:55:48.960 That actually we can't
00:55:50.660 continue to expand our
00:55:52.360 benefits bill.
00:55:53.960 We can't continue to
00:55:55.380 expand our public
00:55:56.240 services necessarily,
00:55:57.720 even though we'd like
00:55:58.480 to.
00:55:59.120 It's just we don't have
00:56:00.100 the money to do that.
00:56:00.960 We could ensure
00:56:02.240 decent health care.
00:56:03.220 Lots of other
00:56:03.660 countries manage it if
00:56:04.520 we didn't expand our
00:56:05.560 benefits bill.
00:56:07.220 I mean, yeah.
00:56:08.540 So, but ultimately we
00:56:10.960 are living beyond that
00:56:11.960 means and have been
00:56:13.220 for a very long time.
00:56:14.600 And we've been printing
00:56:15.400 money to pretend that
00:56:16.720 that's not happening.
00:56:17.400 That's what we've been
00:56:17.820 doing.
00:56:18.300 Yeah.
00:56:18.580 And ultimately at some
00:56:20.620 point we're going to
00:56:21.240 have to face that and
00:56:22.460 take some very, very
00:56:23.680 unpleasant and difficult
00:56:24.660 decisions that are going
00:56:25.560 to be painful for
00:56:26.260 everybody.
00:56:26.640 But I just, it just
00:56:29.460 seems like until there's
00:56:31.360 some kind of catastrophic
00:56:32.560 event, no one is going
00:56:35.820 to be prepared to do that.
00:56:36.360 I'm waiting for the
00:56:37.280 blackouts.
00:56:38.420 Genuinely, I think we are
00:56:39.320 going to head to blackout.
00:56:39.960 They're going to do
00:56:40.300 everything they can to
00:56:40.920 prevent a blackout
00:56:41.740 because they know that
00:56:42.800 that is the point where
00:56:43.480 people go, are you
00:56:45.180 kidding me?
00:56:46.040 We can't keep the
00:56:46.880 lights on.
00:56:47.540 You know the trauma?
00:56:48.280 I mean, someone in my
00:56:49.560 house who was messaging
00:56:50.680 saying, have you had a
00:56:51.420 problem with your water
00:56:52.120 because our water's been
00:56:52.900 cut off?
00:56:53.180 Oh yeah, Thames Water
00:56:54.240 are just doing some
00:56:54.880 roadworks.
00:56:55.340 Maybe it'll be on by the
00:56:56.060 time I get home, but
00:56:56.940 yeah, what a pain.
00:56:58.460 Yeah, imagine that
00:56:59.460 with your electricity
00:57:00.940 and your gas for days
00:57:02.100 or weeks on end or the
00:57:03.640 whole country they're
00:57:04.320 happening to you.
00:57:04.820 That is catastrophic.
00:57:06.180 This is catastrophic.
00:57:07.020 So I think it's only a
00:57:08.420 matter of time because
00:57:09.220 if you keep shutting
00:57:09.880 down nuclear power
00:57:10.640 stations and gas power
00:57:11.660 stations, we don't have
00:57:12.480 battery storage and the
00:57:13.300 wind doesn't blow and the
00:57:14.040 sun doesn't shine enough
00:57:14.860 and there's some problem
00:57:16.060 getting gas and
00:57:18.200 electricity from
00:57:19.060 mainland Europe.
00:57:20.280 That is what's going to
00:57:21.180 happen.
00:57:21.440 I think that is what is
00:57:22.340 going to have to happen,
00:57:23.400 reality check.
00:57:24.100 In the same way that
00:57:25.960 every time, you know,
00:57:27.140 on the net zero thing,
00:57:28.380 every time we get close
00:57:29.480 to the mandate, for
00:57:30.740 instance, on the number
00:57:31.320 of electric vehicles
00:57:32.120 being sold, you know,
00:57:33.600 these £15,000 fines
00:57:36.300 for companies for each
00:57:38.560 non-electric vehicle
00:57:40.120 they sell.
00:57:40.940 I mean, it's, again, I
00:57:43.080 keep saying that word
00:57:43.680 insane, but it is.
00:57:45.280 Do you remember, I
00:57:46.060 mean, we're a bit too
00:57:46.980 young for this, but when
00:57:47.980 we got rid of the horse
00:57:48.780 and cart as the main
00:57:49.780 mode of travel and people
00:57:51.020 moved to motor cars, they
00:57:52.540 didn't have to fine the
00:57:54.020 people making the
00:57:56.420 horse cars, they didn't
00:57:57.420 have to bribe people
00:57:58.400 to buy them.
00:57:58.960 They went to the better
00:57:59.900 mode of transport.
00:58:00.800 People will buy electric
00:58:01.720 vehicles when they can
00:58:02.420 afford to charge them
00:58:03.280 and when they are
00:58:03.720 cheaper and blah, blah,
00:58:04.680 blah.
00:58:04.920 That's not going to
00:58:05.680 happen with mandates
00:58:06.640 and things.
00:58:07.300 So each time these
00:58:08.020 things get shuffled a
00:58:08.880 little bit further away,
00:58:09.780 the heat pump, they
00:58:10.500 get shuffled a bit
00:58:11.200 further away.
00:58:12.020 You wouldn't have to
00:58:12.680 have a mandate on heat
00:58:13.540 pumps if everyone knew
00:58:14.540 heat pumps were working
00:58:15.740 and they gave you
00:58:16.940 cheaper heating and
00:58:18.660 actual heating.
00:58:19.860 You wouldn't have to
00:58:20.480 do any of this.
00:58:20.900 So the reality of the
00:58:22.900 mandates is always the
00:58:23.820 giveaway.
00:58:24.500 That's where you know.
00:58:25.360 I think we're going to
00:58:25.940 have to have the
00:58:26.360 blackouts.
00:58:27.040 I think we've hit, I
00:58:28.980 like to think, God, I
00:58:30.240 hope we've hit rock
00:58:30.920 bottom.
00:58:31.220 No, we haven't.
00:58:32.020 We have not.
00:58:32.920 On the woke agenda.
00:58:34.060 That's another thing.
00:58:35.220 When you watched a man,
00:58:37.280 not a trans man, but a
00:58:38.600 man who's quite clearly
00:58:39.680 physically born,
00:58:41.100 biologically,
00:58:41.960 chromosomally, a man,
00:58:44.000 smashing his fist into a
00:58:46.380 woman boxer's face and it
00:58:48.300 was on prime time
00:58:49.440 television for billions of
00:58:50.760 people to watch and the
00:58:52.160 great and the good were
00:58:53.040 saying, well, that's
00:58:54.800 equality for you.
00:58:56.000 And the rest of us are
00:58:56.900 going, what the actual
00:58:58.460 was that?
00:59:00.320 There are moments when
00:59:01.860 the reality, oh, well,
00:59:03.100 it's just a weight lift
00:59:03.980 doesn't make a difference
00:59:04.960 or it's a tennis player.
00:59:05.940 No, that, that was real
00:59:08.320 to women.
00:59:08.940 That was real.
00:59:10.340 I think when we saw that
00:59:11.760 point with Nicola Sturgeon,
00:59:12.860 it was part of her
00:59:13.380 downfall, although not the
00:59:14.400 only reason, when we had
00:59:15.720 in Scotland that moment
00:59:16.880 where it was wonderful.
00:59:18.560 Finally, the BBC asked a
00:59:19.680 question about trans.
00:59:20.480 I mean, literally, the
00:59:21.400 one BBC journalist who
00:59:22.960 bothered to ask, you know,
00:59:24.920 was a trans woman who was
00:59:27.100 basically, who is, let's
00:59:28.260 face it, a man who is a
00:59:30.980 double convicted rapist,
00:59:32.580 should they be in a
00:59:33.320 women's prison with women
00:59:34.780 often victims of rape
00:59:36.380 themselves?
00:59:37.480 The fact that she talked
00:59:39.100 utter, mindless,
00:59:41.060 gobbledygook and nonsense,
00:59:43.440 it was, I mean, it was just
00:59:44.140 nonsense that she spoke,
00:59:45.220 just totally exposed the
00:59:47.280 madness.
00:59:47.860 All the people have been
00:59:48.620 going, I don't know what
00:59:49.620 your problem is, what
00:59:50.400 difference does it make?
00:59:51.100 These trans people aren't
00:59:51.820 doing anything to you.
00:59:53.100 No, no, but when a, when a
00:59:54.800 man who was convicted two
00:59:56.160 rapes and is convicted of
00:59:57.280 them puts on a wig and,
00:59:59.180 and, and pink leggings
01:00:00.240 over his large dangly bits,
01:00:01.980 doesn't even pretend to
01:00:02.880 hide anything, fake boobs,
01:00:04.500 and then says, I'd like to
01:00:05.260 be in a women's prison,
01:00:05.940 and the authorities say,
01:00:07.120 well, yes, of course you
01:00:08.200 should be in a women's
01:00:09.000 prison, Isla Bryson.
01:00:10.920 And then, I mean, and
01:00:12.540 that actually, that was,
01:00:13.520 that was happening.
01:00:14.120 That was, that was what's
01:00:15.200 going to happen.
01:00:15.660 And it's still happening
01:00:16.400 now.
01:00:18.360 That's the moment when
01:00:19.340 people go, whoa, sorry,
01:00:21.780 are you serious?
01:00:23.040 And I think you need to
01:00:23.720 Hold on, if it's still
01:00:24.060 happening now, we clearly
01:00:25.020 haven't got the wrong
01:00:25.500 Most people aren't aware
01:00:26.320 it's still happening now.
01:00:27.360 That's what I'm saying.
01:00:27.940 Yeah.
01:00:28.300 But I think we are at that
01:00:29.540 point where people are
01:00:30.560 saying, no, you have to
01:00:32.580 hit the point of peak
01:00:34.220 madness or the biggest
01:00:35.640 low before people wake up
01:00:38.700 and, and, and, and they
01:00:40.660 can't cover up the
01:00:42.420 double think anymore.
01:00:44.160 You're having that
01:00:44.800 Orwellian moment where it
01:00:46.180 can't, these, these two
01:00:47.920 things can't both be true
01:00:48.940 at the same time.
01:00:49.900 I think I understand where
01:00:51.780 that sense of, I'm trying
01:00:53.440 to be an optimist.
01:00:54.060 That's what I was going to
01:00:54.940 say.
01:00:55.220 That sense of optimism is
01:00:56.460 coming from, and I feel it
01:00:57.720 because I think when you look
01:00:59.220 at what's happened in
01:00:59.820 America, when you look at
01:01:01.560 what's happening in
01:01:02.160 Argentina under Malay, when
01:01:03.800 you look at the freedom to
01:01:05.540 actually express opinions
01:01:06.780 without fear of being
01:01:08.280 canceled or destroyed or
01:01:09.600 next, et cetera, it feels
01:01:11.320 like there's a movement of
01:01:13.080 pushback.
01:01:13.960 The reason I'm skeptical
01:01:15.620 that we've hit rock bottom
01:01:16.740 is I think our country is
01:01:18.720 in a very different place
01:01:19.900 at the moment to those
01:01:21.800 other things.
01:01:22.540 So to, to the extent that
01:01:24.000 all of us now live more on
01:01:25.620 the internet than we do in
01:01:26.740 our country, which kind of
01:01:28.220 is true for a lot of us.
01:01:29.400 I think that I understand
01:01:30.760 the sense of optimism, but
01:01:31.720 I think in the UK, I don't
01:01:33.880 think we've remotely hit
01:01:35.000 rock bottom.
01:01:35.660 Okay.
01:01:36.340 I do worry about that
01:01:37.760 because the big hope when
01:01:38.640 certainly on the day one of
01:01:40.260 the Trump presidency, the
01:01:42.820 executive orders, again,
01:01:45.000 this is the mind blown
01:01:45.900 thing.
01:01:46.440 One of his first executive
01:01:47.360 orders was to recognize
01:01:48.560 there were only two
01:01:49.260 genders.
01:01:49.820 I mean, male and female.
01:01:51.320 Yeah.
01:01:51.780 Because by the way, gender
01:01:52.560 and sex used to mean the
01:01:53.440 same thing.
01:01:54.140 Yes.
01:01:54.420 And they, in my head, they
01:01:55.360 do still mean the same
01:01:56.140 thing.
01:01:56.840 Call yourself Sheila.
01:01:57.840 I do not care.
01:01:58.640 I'm not interested in what
01:01:59.440 you wear.
01:01:59.900 I don't care.
01:02:00.560 But you're a man or you're
01:02:01.300 a woman and there are sex
01:02:02.300 based rights based on these,
01:02:03.660 on the biology, not what you
01:02:04.840 think on a Wednesday
01:02:05.580 afternoon, end off nothing to
01:02:07.020 discuss, whether it's sport,
01:02:08.220 prison, jobs, whatever it is,
01:02:10.560 you know, enough.
01:02:11.660 The fact that we needed an
01:02:12.880 American president to sign an
01:02:14.160 executive order to establish
01:02:15.420 biological fact as law, I think
01:02:19.620 is really quite scary.
01:02:21.360 My hope is that we are, we've always
01:02:24.400 been downstream from American
01:02:26.000 madness or the wokery, the Black
01:02:28.800 Lives Matter, the trans ideology,
01:02:31.840 frankly, an awful lot of the
01:02:33.240 anti-Semitism, let's call it what
01:02:35.980 it is, not anti-Israel, it's
01:02:36.900 anti-Semitism that is happening on
01:02:38.840 campuses and like a lot and a lot
01:02:41.440 of that, we're downstream from
01:02:42.740 that.
01:02:43.320 So my hope is it does flow.
01:02:45.000 But yeah, maybe America is hit
01:02:46.820 peak sooner.
01:02:47.760 And again, their political system
01:02:50.180 enables that sort of work to
01:02:52.360 change.
01:02:52.760 Whereas we would need, you know,
01:02:54.880 Keir Starmer, well, I mean, he
01:02:56.980 ain't going to do it anyway.
01:02:57.980 But even if we had Nigel Farrell,
01:03:00.020 she's prime minister, and we know
01:03:01.360 he's stood firm on a lot of these
01:03:02.500 issues over the years.
01:03:03.860 Again, you're going to have to take
01:03:04.820 on the civil service, you're going
01:03:05.780 to have to take on the NHS, you're
01:03:07.040 going to have to take on the
01:03:07.620 military, you're going to have to
01:03:08.500 take on every single school.
01:03:10.640 I mean, this stuff is, it's in
01:03:12.700 every corporate PR.
01:03:14.500 I mean, God, it's in my building,
01:03:15.540 for goodness sake, this stuff is
01:03:17.040 imbued throughout the nation now.
01:03:20.340 And how do you remove that?
01:03:23.320 How do you remove that?
01:03:24.180 That is going to take years, if
01:03:26.820 not decades.
01:03:27.720 I think you have to quite literally
01:03:29.080 outlaw it.
01:03:30.280 I think, no, because to the extent
01:03:32.060 that in HR departments, this is
01:03:34.140 now, there are lots of companies
01:03:35.420 that, you know, for instance, you
01:03:36.260 have to have these DEI policies,
01:03:38.300 you have to actually sign up to,
01:03:40.560 you know, loads of stuff, which
01:03:42.440 people do not, most average person
01:03:44.500 does not believe in.
01:03:46.120 And the non-merit-based sort of
01:03:47.740 policies and things to even get a
01:03:49.580 contract with government or with
01:03:51.600 another big company, the ones that
01:03:53.000 have the rainbow lanyards and go on
01:03:54.980 and on about this stuff in all of
01:03:56.700 their Western adverts.
01:03:58.480 But strangely, it never happens in
01:04:00.460 their adverts or their social media
01:04:01.800 accounts in the Middle East or in
01:04:03.500 China.
01:04:04.040 Very strange.
01:04:04.620 I can never work out why it
01:04:06.840 doesn't, the rainbow never appears
01:04:08.320 there, but it never does.
01:04:10.020 So, I mean, you'd, I think you'd
01:04:11.260 actually have to outlaw it.
01:04:12.680 And I think it would be easy to do
01:04:13.860 so.
01:04:14.260 I think separating people by race
01:04:16.360 or by the sexuality or by, or by
01:04:19.400 the, you know, the gender and, and
01:04:21.040 having a non-merit-based hiring
01:04:22.840 policy or whatever is clearly,
01:04:24.900 clearly against the Equality Act.
01:04:28.140 Clearly.
01:04:28.540 Look, I, my issue is, Julia, with all
01:04:32.880 of this stuff, I agree with you a
01:04:34.220 hundred percent, but you know what?
01:04:37.060 I, there's a lot of people who still
01:04:38.960 believe in this stuff.
01:04:39.840 I know.
01:04:40.280 And what's terrible...
01:04:41.100 And they make a living from it and
01:04:42.280 it's their interest to keep it going.
01:04:44.140 You look at what's happened in
01:04:45.320 Scotland with bringing in the hate
01:04:46.700 speech bill.
01:04:47.680 Criminalised public performance on
01:04:49.060 stage.
01:04:49.440 People can now, at the home of the
01:04:51.440 Edinburgh Festival, people can now get
01:04:53.520 arrested for telling a joke.
01:04:54.800 I would rather they were being
01:04:56.320 arrested and it was all public than
01:04:58.200 they were being quietly cancelled
01:04:59.620 without any action.
01:05:01.280 And you go, well, you know, those are
01:05:02.820 just, we always talk, well, there are
01:05:04.160 consequences.
01:05:05.180 Well, that's your consequence.
01:05:06.100 You get taken off stage.
01:05:07.300 Let's make it more obvious.
01:05:08.740 Let's take it.
01:05:09.680 Okay.
01:05:10.000 Let's take it to the limit.
01:05:11.180 Arrest people.
01:05:12.140 But you know what?
01:05:13.260 You know, go, go before a jury and
01:05:15.220 see what the jury thinks.
01:05:16.500 And also there's a shadow of blasphemy
01:05:19.160 laws.
01:05:19.740 Oh.
01:05:20.120 Which are being openly discussed.
01:05:21.760 And my worry is not even that these
01:05:24.580 things are being implemented.
01:05:26.120 My worry is that the people that I
01:05:27.940 talk to, a lot of people, particularly
01:05:29.400 in that echelon of society, don't see
01:05:31.640 it as a problem.
01:05:32.480 And that's when I get the panic bells
01:05:34.540 and I'm like, well, this is...
01:05:36.040 By the way, not only do they not see
01:05:37.140 it as a problem, they think you are a
01:05:38.920 problem for seeing it as a problem.
01:05:40.860 Yeah.
01:05:41.340 By the way, we already have a blasphemy
01:05:42.900 law.
01:05:44.220 We already have a blasphemy law.
01:05:46.020 Because, you know, that grammar school
01:05:47.540 teacher in Batley, he's living under
01:05:49.360 that law because he and his family have
01:05:51.120 been hiding out, hiding for four years
01:05:54.720 for fear of their life.
01:05:56.240 You know, the reality is there's lots
01:05:58.400 of things that we will say about pretty
01:05:59.700 much any religion apart from Islam or
01:06:02.000 go up against, you know, showing a
01:06:03.820 picture of the, you know, cartoon of the
01:06:05.960 Prophet Muhammad, you know, with the
01:06:07.780 Charlie Hebdo cover.
01:06:09.040 You know, you wouldn't do that now.
01:06:11.260 You wouldn't do it because you'd like
01:06:12.300 to stay alive and you'd like your family
01:06:13.900 to stay alive.
01:06:14.560 And you won't.
01:06:15.400 It is a simple matter of fact.
01:06:16.620 You will be in hiding the rest of your
01:06:17.820 life if you do that.
01:06:18.560 We have a blasphemy law.
01:06:20.400 And the authorities have gone, yeah.
01:06:23.480 Yeah.
01:06:25.680 That's my case.
01:06:27.140 We haven't hit rock bottom.
01:06:28.340 Yeah.
01:06:29.060 Oh, God.
01:06:30.960 Welcome to trigonometry where you get
01:06:33.140 even more depressed than you were coming in.
01:06:35.360 However, I think.
01:06:36.560 Cheating in next week.
01:06:37.780 However, I think your point is actually
01:06:39.640 broadly correct, which is there is a sense
01:06:42.260 now in some parts of the Western world
01:06:44.440 that this isn't forever.
01:06:46.960 Yes.
01:06:47.400 There is the possibility that if you elect
01:06:49.640 the right people or the better, the better
01:06:52.840 people of the two that are available to you,
01:06:55.020 let's say, if they promise to do this,
01:06:57.660 there is the possibility of doing it.
01:06:59.280 And maybe it's going to take some time.
01:07:02.460 I think a lot of it needs to take time
01:07:03.560 because people need to know.
01:07:04.740 I mean, again, people need to know what
01:07:06.480 the trans ideology was doing in terms of
01:07:08.300 damaging women's safety and rights.
01:07:10.240 You need to know.
01:07:11.400 You need to know that net zero is going
01:07:14.000 to cost jobs and ruin the economy.
01:07:16.140 No one knows that.
01:07:16.580 No one knows that.
01:07:17.160 Exactly.
01:07:17.420 You need to know that.
01:07:18.120 Look, God, I can remember a lot of times
01:07:19.580 when I used to do the breakfast show and talk
01:07:21.560 and I'd have MPs on, Labour MPs in particular,
01:07:23.840 and I would say, OK, just give me a clue.
01:07:25.460 You signed up to this.
01:07:26.540 What percentage, what percentage of,
01:07:29.560 not just right now today, but on an average,
01:07:31.620 what percentage of our electricity do you think
01:07:34.120 comes from renewables in any average year?
01:07:37.360 You know, a percentage of our energy,
01:07:39.060 our energy, and they were like, oh, you know,
01:07:40.820 oh, I don't know.
01:07:41.580 No, no, I'm not going to hold you to the nearest 20%.
01:07:45.400 Can you give me that?
01:07:47.240 Oh, mutter, mutter, mutter.
01:07:48.460 I mean, nearest 50%.
01:07:50.380 Give me that.
01:07:51.060 They wouldn't know.
01:07:51.780 And I'd say, like, it's like sort of four or six percent.
01:07:54.780 And that's of all our energy needs.
01:07:56.240 I mean, even when they talk about electricity,
01:07:57.820 that's only 20% of our energy needs.
01:07:59.580 These people, MPs, who are voting on this stuff,
01:08:02.480 who are campaigning on this stuff,
01:08:04.540 they don't know the most basic facts about energy production
01:08:09.940 and any energy use in this country.
01:08:13.060 Why would we expect the public to do?
01:08:14.780 I mean, I think the role of shows like mine,
01:08:17.620 I write a column for The Sun as well,
01:08:19.200 and podcasts like yours,
01:08:20.700 who've been campaigning just to get the facts out.
01:08:24.200 And I remember doing this through lockdown as well.
01:08:26.380 It was, I felt I was on,
01:08:27.460 it was public service broadcasting.
01:08:29.200 It's the proudest thing I've ever done.
01:08:30.720 Wasn't right about everything.
01:08:31.780 There are things that a lot of people would disagree with me on
01:08:34.000 in different directions on my views on those things.
01:08:36.600 But I just felt like,
01:08:37.340 I just want to try and get the alternative views on.
01:08:39.320 I want to just make sure people have got an outlet,
01:08:41.660 they can hear.
01:08:42.700 I was probably the only journalist on broadcasting
01:08:45.180 who was challenging cabinet ministers week in, week out,
01:08:49.460 actually on some of the policies they were making
01:08:51.620 and demanding, you know, cost-benefit analysis.
01:08:53.780 And they're like, people cannot wake up to something
01:08:56.980 if no one has told them they're asleep.
01:08:58.960 Yes.
01:08:59.260 Yeah.
01:08:59.600 It's so true.
01:09:00.220 And I totally, I'm so glad you are raising this issue
01:09:03.540 about net zero in the way that you are,
01:09:05.060 because I really see that as it's a set of luxury beliefs
01:09:10.240 that we simply can't afford anymore.
01:09:11.980 It's as simple as that.
01:09:12.720 It's going to cost lives.
01:09:13.720 Yeah.
01:09:14.120 It already is.
01:09:14.660 It's going to cost lives.
01:09:14.980 Well, pensioners freeze every winter
01:09:16.420 because electricity is too expensive and gas is too expensive.
01:09:18.660 Or how much, yeah, the question becomes,
01:09:20.180 oh, that's where our politics gets it wrong.
01:09:22.240 And it brings us back to the start of the conversation
01:09:23.960 where we talked about, oh, what's the solution
01:09:25.680 to children being stabbed to death in Southport last summer?
01:09:29.240 Oh, oh, changing the rules on what evidence of your adulthood
01:09:33.120 is needed from Amazon when they sell you a knife, right?
01:09:35.680 That's what they think the solution is.
01:09:37.220 And that's when you get to energy prices are too high.
01:09:39.780 Oh, how do we subsidize energy prices?
01:09:41.520 What extra benefits with a winter fuel allowance, whatever?
01:09:44.720 Do we give some pensioners so they can afford to heat their homes
01:09:46.760 and not die in winter?
01:09:48.720 You're tackling the wrong end of the question.
01:09:50.540 You have completely misidentified the problem
01:09:53.760 and therefore any solution you offer is not actually a solution.
01:09:59.200 And this is a problem, I think, in this case,
01:10:00.900 every aspect of the conversation we've had.
01:10:03.800 Politicians who have completely misunderstood the problem,
01:10:06.980 misidentified the issue,
01:10:08.740 and therefore any efforts they make to tackle it
01:10:11.140 are going to go completely and utterly unnoticed.
01:10:15.360 Well, they're either going to do more harm.
01:10:17.200 They're certainly not going to improve things
01:10:18.480 because they haven't identified the problem.
01:10:20.840 To the extent, go back to immigration.
01:10:23.300 Boris Johnson identified the issue as being
01:10:25.180 we don't have control of net migration to our country.
01:10:28.400 If we have control, if it's us setting the numbers,
01:10:31.180 then that's the solution.
01:10:32.380 So it was OK for him to raise it to net one million a year.
01:10:35.320 That happened under his watch.
01:10:36.560 Those figures didn't come out later.
01:10:37.780 The visas were issued on his watch.
01:10:39.080 Legal visas for people to arrive in this country
01:10:41.140 to make new lives for themselves.
01:10:42.740 No issue with those people.
01:10:44.060 No issue with them at all.
01:10:45.220 But that was a deliberate government policy.
01:10:46.920 They weren't illegal migrants.
01:10:47.900 They weren't a shock.
01:10:49.020 They came over legally.
01:10:50.760 His view was, clearly,
01:10:52.760 but we're controlling it.
01:10:55.000 He misidentified the problem.
01:10:57.360 So he couldn't come up with a solution.
01:10:59.000 The problem was too many people coming to this country,
01:11:02.100 both number-wise and too few skills
01:11:04.580 and too little contribution to this nation
01:11:07.280 and too little assimilation.
01:11:09.460 Misidentified the problem.
01:11:10.840 And I think that's the thing.
01:11:11.780 In every area, whether it's energy,
01:11:13.900 whether it's immigration,
01:11:14.920 whether it's crime,
01:11:17.060 they keep misidentifying the problem.
01:11:19.560 How do so many clever people
01:11:21.520 get so much so wrong?
01:11:24.700 That's what I can't work out.
01:11:26.520 I've never been a conspiracy theorist.
01:11:28.160 I always say with people on my show,
01:11:29.640 it must be a conspiracy,
01:11:31.340 whether it's COVID or anything else.
01:11:33.340 I'm like, no, I've met these people.
01:11:35.360 Honestly, I've met them.
01:11:36.300 I know quite a lot of them quite well.
01:11:37.620 They're not clever enough.
01:11:39.400 They're not clever enough.
01:11:40.680 The moon landings,
01:11:41.740 no-one was clever enough to conspire to do all of that.
01:11:46.080 But I can't understand how they can get it so wrong
01:11:49.520 when, you know, we've not got PhDs in these topics.
01:11:53.200 We can see it.
01:11:54.460 It's in black and white in front of us,
01:11:55.900 what the problem is.
01:11:57.100 So what are they missing?
01:11:59.080 Is it the will?
01:12:01.580 No, but the will would imply
01:12:02.560 you actually had identified the problem
01:12:03.960 and wanted to do it.
01:12:05.300 Some of them have.
01:12:06.480 Some of them have.
01:12:07.080 I remember during the Tory administration
01:12:09.140 talking to Tory ministers
01:12:10.900 who would agree with every word you've just said
01:12:13.540 while implementing policies.
01:12:15.660 And then shut up about it.
01:12:16.440 Yes.
01:12:16.820 Oh, yeah.
01:12:17.220 I remember talking to a lot of ministers
01:12:18.520 that we say during lockdown.
01:12:19.780 I knew we had a third of the cabinet behind us.
01:12:22.240 I knew.
01:12:22.640 I knew there were people.
01:12:23.760 None of them said it.
01:12:24.620 Only a few.
01:12:25.600 Weirdly, the person who got the most...
01:12:27.560 Rishi Sunak was the one person in the group of four
01:12:30.100 who were making all the decisions
01:12:31.340 who was actually fighting lockdown, ironically.
01:12:35.300 But this is the thing.
01:12:36.160 I mean, what's the point of being in one of those jobs
01:12:39.060 if you're not going to stand up and be counted
01:12:41.420 when it really matters?
01:12:44.320 Well said.
01:12:44.840 Well, Julia, it's been great having you back.
01:12:46.340 Thank you for coming on.
01:12:47.300 As you know, the last question we always ask
01:12:49.040 is what's the one thing we're not talking about
01:12:50.880 that we shouldn't be?
01:12:51.800 Oh, God, and we've covered so much.
01:12:53.360 We have.
01:12:54.520 We've covered so much.
01:12:56.380 Gosh, I wish I'd thought about this earlier.
01:12:58.300 We should have given you a warning.
01:12:59.620 You should have reminded me.
01:13:01.060 We like to surprise people.
01:13:02.260 What's the one thing we're not...
01:13:02.980 Well, I say I don't think we're talking about net zero enough.
01:13:06.040 I don't think...
01:13:06.580 OK, I don't think we talk about demographics enough
01:13:09.020 and the ageing population
01:13:10.200 and how we need to make it so much easier
01:13:12.720 for so many people to start a family sooner
01:13:16.880 and be able to afford a home
01:13:18.640 and have a family
01:13:19.600 and have the two or three kids that they want
01:13:21.360 and everything that we need to solve in our country
01:13:25.160 in terms of our future economy,
01:13:27.280 paying for the NHS and things like that,
01:13:29.120 actually, and not needing,
01:13:30.460 we're told to import lots of people from abroad
01:13:32.840 and deal with those issues
01:13:33.560 could be solved by actually enabling people
01:13:36.520 not to, like, leave university with a load of debt,
01:13:38.520 not be able to afford a home
01:13:39.520 and not be able to start a family
01:13:41.060 and have the family they want.
01:13:42.760 Our demographics are absolutely drocious.
01:13:44.980 Not as bad as some other countries,
01:13:46.860 but that is something that we don't talk about enough
01:13:49.500 and that would solve a lot of problems.
01:13:50.920 And you know what?
01:13:51.500 It would contribute to the sum of human happiness.
01:13:54.700 It would do, indeed.
01:13:55.500 And also, when people talk about this woke stuff,
01:13:57.800 I mean, I have a little sympathy for young people.
01:14:01.040 Why would you be conservative
01:14:02.180 if you've got nothing to conserve?
01:14:04.320 Absolutely.
01:14:05.860 It got depressing again.
01:14:06.820 I'm sorry, guys.
01:14:07.980 We promise that when we go to Substack,
01:14:10.180 it will be uplifting.
01:14:11.400 Our American viewers just tune in
01:14:13.300 for the depression-born.
01:14:14.500 Yeah.
01:14:14.940 All right, head on over to Substack
01:14:16.260 where there'll be uplift...
01:14:18.800 Will there?
01:14:19.540 Probably not.
01:14:20.140 Probably not.
01:14:20.700 Anyway, head on over there now.
01:14:22.000 There'll be more depressing questions and answers.
01:14:23.980 That's why you watch.
01:14:24.840 Yeah, exactly.
01:14:25.800 You love it.
01:14:26.220 We recently reached a huge YouTube milestone
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01:14:49.120 Some people have even gone as far
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01:14:52.620 who funds you?
01:14:53.800 And the time has come
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01:14:57.160 For the last six years,
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01:16:43.980 just an honest conversation
01:16:45.140 with a fascinating person.
01:16:46.740 Plus,
01:16:47.320 I'll be able to afford
01:16:48.420 a proper haircut.
01:16:49.660 You're not going to get one,
01:16:50.660 but at least you'll be able
01:16:51.440 to afford one.
01:16:52.280 Good point.
01:16:52.980 Click the link
01:16:53.580 and join 40,000 people
01:16:55.880 like you
01:16:56.960 to make the show
01:16:57.880 you love
01:16:58.520 better again.
01:17:00.080 What frustrates you
01:17:01.320 the most about
01:17:01.860 political representation
01:17:02.840 in Britain?
01:17:03.860 Does Julia think
01:17:04.780 women are in general
01:17:06.180 less suited to politics
01:17:07.480 because of their
01:17:08.120 high levels of empathy,
01:17:09.280 especially for our groups,
01:17:10.960 the planet,
01:17:11.720 and criminals?
01:17:12.240 Broadway's smash hit
01:17:23.580 The Neil Diamond Musical
01:17:24.880 A Beautiful Noise
01:17:26.420 is coming to Toronto.
01:17:28.020 The true story
01:17:28.780 of a kid from Brooklyn
01:17:29.840 destined for something more
01:17:31.380 featuring all the songs
01:17:32.520 you love,
01:17:33.260 including America,
01:17:34.580 Forever in Blue Jeans,
01:17:35.800 and Sweet Caroline.
01:17:37.280 Like Jersey Boys
01:17:38.220 and Beautiful,
01:17:39.080 the next musical
01:17:40.020 mega hit is here,
01:17:41.160 The Neil Diamond Musical
01:17:42.660 A Beautiful Noise
01:17:43.980 now through June 7, 2026
01:17:46.120 at the Princess of Wales Theatre.
01:17:48.300 Get tickets at
01:17:49.000 murbush.com
01:17:50.120 at the Gonnaian
01:17:52.080 the
01:18:12.620 The Jo ben
01:18:14.840 the
01:18:16.960 the
01:18:17.400 the