TRIGGERnometry - The Authorities Failed Those Girls - Julia Hartley-Brewer

00:00:00.880 Social workers wouldn't go to his home without a police escort.

00:00:04.680 That's how dangerous they believed him to be.

00:00:06.740 Oh, but let's leave him free to walk the streets.

00:00:09.520 All of the signs were there and nothing was done because he didn't fit a category.

00:00:13.800 I mean, it's such a failure on every single count, on both of those major stories,

00:00:18.860 both of which involved terrible tragedies, terrible things happening to little girls.

00:00:24.580 Grooming gangs were known, known by, not doing it, no one knew,

00:00:28.640 were known by the authorities. Some were even killed.

00:00:31.320 People can't forget that. Some were even actually murdered.

00:00:33.540 And yet there were times when these girls found themselves prosecuted. 1.00

00:00:36.720 So why is that happening?

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00:01:09.600 Julia, welcome back to the show.

00:01:11.120 Thank you very much. It's been a very long time.

00:01:12.820 It has. Well, it's not because we don't like you and we've asked you on.

00:01:15.900 I've been busy.

00:01:16.500 You've been busy.

00:01:17.020 You've been busy. Here you are. A lot to talk about.

00:01:21.120 Yeah.

00:01:21.960 And a lot of very serious things to talk about in the last couple of weeks that,

00:01:26.080 you know, the grooming gang's obviously exploding, that conversation.

00:01:29.520 We've had the Southport murder a sentence.

00:01:32.980 What have been your takes on the last few weeks?

00:01:35.280 I don't know. I don't know about you.

00:01:36.400 I've just been kind of blown away by the whole thing, depressed by the whole thing

00:01:39.400 and incredibly incensed and angry by the whole thing at the abject failure of pretty much

00:01:44.840 every single authority in our country.

00:01:47.760 I mean, it's such a failure on every single count on both of those major stories,

00:01:53.100 both of which involved terrible tragedies, terrible things happening to little girls,

00:01:58.600 where there were 13-year-olds being raped for years on end,

00:02:03.120 gang raped by rape grooming gangs, or Telford and Rotherham and Rochdale,

00:02:08.740 and then it turns out another 45 other cities and towns across the country. 0.75

00:02:12.940 Or it was those little girls who were killed by Axel Rubikana in Southport

00:02:17.540 and the other eight who were stabbed.

00:02:19.520 Oh, and by the way, you know, the other sort of, you know, 20-odd who were in the room

00:02:25.560 who somehow escaped, well, with just the mental scars, not the physical scars.

00:02:30.980 And in both of these cases, very, very different and yet exactly the same issue,

00:02:35.840 which is British authorities, whose job it is, whose job it is to keep us safe, failed.

00:02:43.460 And they failed again and again and again and again.

00:02:47.860 But don't worry, guys.

00:02:49.400 We're going to have inquiries of some kind or another,

00:02:51.880 not necessarily the big public inquirer in Southport that we all think we need and do need.

00:02:56.940 But we're going to have other inquiries.

00:02:58.320 We're going to have investigations and lessons will be learned.

00:03:01.540 Like it's the knife's fault?

00:03:02.760 I think it's all down to Amazon.

00:03:05.420 I think this country, our authorities, think that everything is down to nasty things

00:03:10.920 being sold on the internet and hurty words on the internet.

00:03:13.860 And if you could just solve that, we'd all be fine.

00:03:17.240 I think these people are so deeply wrong.

00:03:21.060 I think they are immoral in terms of their failure to do their job.

00:03:24.860 Because you know what?

00:03:25.260 If you can't do that job, you have no bloody business pretending you can

00:03:29.100 because people's lives are at stake.

00:03:30.920 And I think sometimes, I think, I cannot work out, are they mad or bad?

00:03:36.060 Do they just not care about, you know, people's lives?

00:03:40.740 Are they so desperate to virtue signal and not say the wrong thing and not be called a bad word

00:03:46.360 and to still go to the North London dinner parties they want to go to?

00:03:49.320 Is that their concern?

00:03:50.240 Or do they genuinely believe that if only Akshay Rukhana didn't have to wait an extra nine days

00:03:56.280 to buy a knife from Amazon, that the Southport attack wouldn't have happened?

00:04:01.300 Or if only people didn't say nasty things about Pakistanis,

00:04:05.760 then we would have been able to tackle the grooming gangs led largely by men of Pakistani heritage. 0.98

00:04:11.900 It's always about words.

00:04:13.720 It's about stuff on the internet.

00:04:14.660 It's never about the actual problem.

00:04:17.460 Do you think that's because, look, I think they do care.

00:04:20.340 I think it's hard to imagine a human being, although some exist, but it's hard to imagine.

00:04:24.240 Most people.

00:04:24.980 It's hard to imagine a government made up of people who don't care about little girls being killed.

00:04:29.060 I imagine.

00:04:29.860 You say that.

00:04:31.620 You say that.

00:04:33.040 But let's talk about, let's go back to Southport.

00:04:35.720 No, not Southport.

00:04:36.400 So let's go back to the grooming gangs.

00:04:37.900 So for years on years, in dozens and dozens of towns and cities across our country,

00:04:43.980 for 10, 20, possibly even 30 years, grooming gangs were known, known by, not doing it,

00:04:50.180 no one knew, were known by the authorities, known by the police to be going out,

00:04:54.460 to be drugging and giving alcohol to and threatening and grooming young teenage girls

00:04:59.900 in care, in difficult circumstances, and then having them gang raped, tortured, beaten.

00:05:06.000 Some were even killed.

00:05:07.200 People keep forgetting that.

00:05:08.060 Some were even actually murdered.

00:05:10.060 Young girls were turning up back at their care homes, you know, bloodied and bruised.

00:05:15.820 They were being taken to hospital, pregnant.

00:05:18.680 Some girls had to have surgery. 1.00

00:05:20.140 They'd been so badly injured.

00:05:21.780 Are you telling me?

00:05:23.040 Are you telling me?

00:05:24.120 There were all these people who cared, the doctors and the care home workers and the social workers

00:05:29.040 and the police and the council leaders.

00:05:31.300 You're saying they cared, but they just didn't care quite enough to stop it.

00:05:35.760 Could you imagine any of us?

00:05:37.460 I like to think any of the audience watching this, my audience at Talk TV, I can't imagine

00:05:41.520 any of us going, well, I'm worried about my career, I'm paying my mortgage, so I won't

00:05:45.960 do anything to try and stop this.

00:05:47.180 I can't imagine.

00:05:47.720 I don't, I don't see, I don't see how you can have any morality and not stop that.

00:05:53.180 Well, on that issue, we had Maggie Oliver, the police whistleblower. 0.97

00:05:55.940 The wonderful Maggie Oliver.

00:05:57.220 Yes.

00:05:57.640 Who did give up her career.

00:05:58.600 She did, and she also talked about the fact that one of the comments that, I can't remember

00:06:02.540 who made it, it was either another police officer or somebody in position of authority, said

00:06:07.600 that, oh, these girls, they should have just been drowned at birth or something, because 0.99

00:06:11.200 of what, because of how worthless they were considered. 0.99

00:06:14.620 Well, they were slags, weren't they? 1.00

00:06:15.080 They were whores and slags, you know. 1.00

00:06:16.940 The idea they were underage prostitutes. 1.00

00:06:18.740 There's no such thing. 0.99

00:06:19.900 There's no such thing as, you're a victim of rape.

00:06:22.920 If you're under 16 and you're having sex, particularly with a man who's old enough to be your father

00:06:26.240 or grandfather, you're a victim of rape, end of, nothing to discuss.

00:06:30.260 And yet, there were times when these girls were found themselves prosecuted, taken into 0.99

00:06:34.320 a prison, into a police cell, and the men who were perpetrating this evil against them

00:06:39.020 were let off.

00:06:40.060 I don't know how you can say, well, most people, well, they might have been good people,

00:06:44.660 they weren't good enough.

00:06:45.420 In the interest of fairness, as somebody who has actually taught and taught in deprived

00:06:50.040 areas, it is systemic, because let's say you notice bruises on a little boy's body, you

00:06:56.660 were taught, refer it to your line manager, your line manager will then refer it up.

00:07:00.260 So you have done your job.

00:07:02.280 And all you can do is your job.

00:07:03.920 And if the bruises keep happening, you go to your line manager, what's happening about

00:07:06.600 it?

00:07:06.800 But you don't have that much power, particularly if you're at that echelon of the chain.

00:07:11.480 No, absolutely.

00:07:11.840 I mean, so in the Sarah Sharif case, you know, she was taken out of school.

00:07:15.180 When the school started noticing her bruises, the little girl who ended up being murdered

00:07:19.260 by her father and her stepmother, they took her out of school.

00:07:22.200 Well, first of all, they put her in a hajib to cover her up, so she couldn't, her bruises

00:07:26.140 couldn't be seen on her face.

00:07:27.360 I mean, you know, evil people are quite clever at covering up their evil deeds.

00:07:33.080 But the key thing is, if you're in a position of authority, if you're in a position of trust,

00:07:36.620 if you are somebody whose job it is to protect people, if children are coming to you and

00:07:44.420 saying, this is happening to me and you don't do anything about it, if police officers like

00:07:49.460 Maggie Oliver are going to people and saying, you need to do something about this, and you

00:07:52.600 choose not to do it because you don't want to stir up community tensions and all of this,

00:07:56.400 I just think you need to take a long, hard look at yourself.

00:08:00.020 I'd also like to see your hard drive.

00:08:02.360 I know, I'm serious.

00:08:03.140 I think we, I don't know, what was happening in, you know, the Roman Catholic Church and

00:08:06.900 the Church of England for all the issues, and many other churches as well.

00:08:09.440 It's not just, you know, happening in certain churches.

00:08:12.120 The cover-ups that went on and on where a priest would be found to have been, you know,

00:08:16.060 sexually abusing or beating both children in one diocese.

00:08:20.700 Oh, well, oh, can you move him somewhere else? 0.98

00:08:22.940 This was routine.

00:08:23.880 Oh, well, send him to Africa. 1.00

00:08:25.020 It's okay if he abuses, you know, African children. 1.00

00:08:27.260 This was routine in the Church for decades.

00:08:30.500 It's fairly routine even now.

00:08:32.620 They'll pretend it isn't, but it is happening now.

00:08:34.900 We just lost Justin Wilby as the Archbishop of Canada because his failure to deal with this

00:08:39.020 stuff, stuff he knew and he didn't deal with.

00:08:41.680 I just, there is just no circumstance when I can see myself, and I think you guys and

00:08:47.040 people watching or listening to this can see themselves going, yeah, I'm going to put

00:08:51.180 my career over saving a child from being abused.

00:08:54.240 I don't, I just don't think you have any normal human morality if you do that.

00:08:59.960 Yes.

00:09:00.580 Look, I'm in an agreement with you, and I also think we need to look at the fact that there's

00:09:05.320 been systemic failings as well.

00:09:07.500 The fact, take the case of the killer of Southport.

00:09:12.540 He went into a school, his old school, armed with a hockey stick, targeting students, had

00:09:19.780 to be tackled to the ground, I think by the deputy head.

00:09:22.420 Yes, he literally jumped on him.

00:09:24.380 Yeah.

00:09:24.740 And you go, so then why was nothing done about that?

00:09:28.640 That is also a very, very serious incident.

00:09:30.540 He admitted 10 times he's carried a knife.

00:09:31.880 He was definitely caught with a knife in school as well.

00:09:34.940 He was found on a bus with a knife again and again and again.

00:09:38.660 What's amazing is, you know, he was sent off to the special schools, you know, to deal

00:09:41.940 with, you know, these sort of kids, didn't bother turning up, only went for a few days

00:09:45.340 in total.

00:09:46.560 Social workers sent to his home.

00:09:47.760 Social workers wouldn't go to his home without a police escort.

00:09:51.560 That's how dangerous they believed him to be.

00:09:53.640 Oh, but let's leave him free to walk the streets.

00:09:56.540 I mean, that seems normal.

00:09:58.420 These are the choices we make.

00:09:59.840 And this comes back to, you know, the big debate that's been going on in the last couple

00:10:03.720 of weeks, especially since we learned so much more detail about Axel Rubio Kavanaugh after

00:10:09.820 his sentencing, which was one of the most harrowing things I've ever covered as a journalist.

00:10:15.220 Not even in court.

00:10:16.200 And I've sat in court through some horrible cases as a news reporter.

00:10:19.460 But covering that on air, reading out some of the details.

00:10:23.100 And I'm in the studio.

00:10:24.080 You know, I've got a 60-year-old ex-military man who happened to be my guest that day.

00:10:30.100 And he and I were both red-eyed.

00:10:31.460 There were a couple of times when I just had to say, I'm going to have to go to a break.

00:10:33.640 I can't even, you know, as a mum, I can't read this out loud.

00:10:37.520 This is just too awful.

00:10:39.180 And I'm saying to people, if you've got kids in the car, you might want to, you know,

00:10:42.660 tune out at this point.

00:10:43.760 But we need to get the information out.

00:10:45.040 But the key thing about this, so much information was known and so little was done.

00:10:49.280 And then the whole debate became about whether the authorities would deem him as an extremist.

00:10:54.340 Was it because he has Islamic material, Islamic al-Qaeda training manual?

00:10:59.100 So was it, you know, which in itself is a terror offence.

00:11:01.780 But whether that was meant that he was, you know, an Islamist inspired terrorist.

00:11:07.040 No, we thought we had other ideologies obsessed it would appear with.

00:11:10.680 White genocide spoke about that at the school.

00:11:13.140 And this became the big debate.

00:11:14.540 And yet, this is all about words.

00:11:17.860 Everything with this government, and I think the last government as well, is about words.

00:11:21.620 Whether it's hurty words on Twitter, whether it's someone saying something that people don't like,

00:11:25.900 the language you use about a particular issue, as opposed to actions and deeds

00:11:29.660 and taking action against people who would do us wrong.

00:11:32.460 This guy was clearly a danger.

00:11:34.720 He went from being a 12-year-old choir boy, you know, Christian Rwandan migrant parents,

00:11:40.000 who, you know, who was suddenly incredibly troubled, 0.95

00:11:41.900 who called Childline and talked about, I want to kill people. 0.96

00:11:45.420 What do I do about that? 0.97

00:11:47.540 You know, bought knives, you know, beat up other, you know, being in Wendell School, beat up the kids.

00:11:52.840 His dad was so worried a week before the Southport attack that his child was going to go and commit a massacre at a high school,

00:11:57.600 which is what he planned to do.

00:11:59.000 He begged, you know, a taxi driver not to take him.

00:12:01.220 Now, all of the signs were there and nothing was done because he didn't fit a category, 0.75

00:12:06.500 because someone had to tick a box and go, oh, he's a far-right terrorist, he's an Islamist terrorist, he's an incel.

00:12:13.540 Well, he didn't fit any category.

00:12:16.100 And so the computer said no.

00:12:19.140 That's what happened.

00:12:19.560 The computer said no and nothing was done.

00:12:21.580 He didn't respond to some of the efforts made by social workers and Prevent.

00:12:26.580 So they just kind of didn't bother.

00:12:28.740 Same issue we have with kids who were murdered by their parents.

00:12:32.040 Often again, oh, the parents wouldn't let us in the door.

00:12:34.700 If the parents don't let you in the door, you bash the door down, you arrest the parents,

00:12:38.860 and you take the kid into care.

00:12:40.380 The failure to take action against people who are a risk to us,

00:12:46.140 again and again and again and again and again,

00:12:48.900 every single Islamist terrorist who has committed an atrocity in our streets in the last 20 years

00:12:53.620 was known to the authorities.

00:12:54.880 Often they've been followed by the authorities.

00:12:57.140 They had clear links with Islamist terrorist ideology and they talked about it.

00:13:02.440 They knew people.

00:13:03.440 Nothing was done.

00:13:04.520 So many criminals.

00:13:06.360 Nottingham murder.

00:13:07.940 The other year, there's a caretaker and two young students killed in the prime of their life.

00:13:14.060 So many opportunities to prevent those murders from happening.

00:13:18.740 And they weren't taken.

00:13:19.960 This is about joined-up thinking and it's about putting the rights of law-abiding people

00:13:26.080 from 80 to eight months to live safely in this country.

00:13:32.260 And the only time we ever hear about civil rights in this country from the authorities

00:13:35.560 is when they're worried about the civil rights of someone who would potentially do us harm.

00:13:39.020 They're never worried about the civil rights of everyone else.

00:13:41.840 They don't care about those. 0.64

00:13:43.540 I just think we've got things absolutely the wrong way around.

00:13:47.340 You know, in you talking about the words and the obsession with words,

00:13:50.880 I think partly, Julia, it's because you can deal with words.

00:13:54.880 Words is a very easy thing to, you know, you can control them.

00:13:58.520 It's a very easy solution.

00:14:00.660 It's something that's easy to trot out in front of the television cameras.

00:14:04.620 What's more difficult is to tackle the thorny issues and in particular the truth.

00:14:09.560 Yeah, facing up to the truth and dealing with the actual actions.

00:14:13.940 It's hard.

00:14:14.720 I'm not pretending it's easy.

00:14:15.720 I mean, even when we talk about, say, terror attacks,

00:14:17.840 we don't hear about the terror attacks that have been stopped

00:14:20.680 and the magnificent work of the security services.

00:14:23.080 But there are too many that have not been stopped

00:14:25.180 and there are too many criminals that are not stopped,

00:14:27.020 too many mad and bad people who are out and about.

00:14:29.660 And when you get into the madness of last autumn where we had the Labour government,

00:14:35.120 and the Tory government would have done it if they'd still been in power.

00:14:37.500 It was their plan too.

00:14:39.400 Letting out convicted, violent offenders, sex offenders included,

00:14:45.140 letting them onto the streets because they had to clear enough space in prisons

00:14:47.880 to put people who tweeted hurty words in August about the Southport attack,

00:14:53.040 to let them, put them in prison, some of them for, you know, a couple of years.

00:14:56.360 You are in, you know, Alice Through the Looking Glass territory.

00:15:01.120 Yeah.

00:15:01.260 And also as well, you look at Keir Starmer's approach to it

00:15:05.620 and the way that he cracked down using the word far right.

00:15:09.060 Yeah.

00:15:09.240 And I'm thinking to myself, you can only use that tactic once.

00:15:13.240 It's only going to be able to be used once.

00:15:15.620 And after that, it's going to be inflammatory more than anything. 0.74

00:15:19.300 Well, I mean, I think, you know, far right, racist, bigot, Islamophobe,

00:15:25.000 all that, that's been thrown at, well, that's been thrown pretty much

00:15:27.560 everybody who voted Brexit since 2016.

00:15:30.180 I've been called all of those things.

00:15:31.440 I am none of those things.

00:15:33.440 My audience are called that, you know, if you watch and listen to anything

00:15:36.920 that isn't, you know, the BBC or Sky News, then you're accused of being that.

00:15:40.740 If you say anything that's even fact-based, you know,

00:15:43.260 you look at the latest Office for National Statistic data

00:15:46.880 on population projections and you say, maybe this isn't a good thing

00:15:50.400 to add another 5 million people to the population over, you know,

00:15:53.600 over a 10-year period or pretty much entirely from immigration.

00:15:57.300 Oh, oh, that's a bit far, right?

00:15:59.040 I mean, I'm stating official government facts and projections

00:16:03.140 and I'm giving a perfectly valid opinion based on the facts as I see them.

00:16:08.380 But that's the thing, they throw this out.

00:16:10.480 We had a report only this week, which we were never supposed to see,

00:16:13.240 a Home Office review of, you know, events post-Southport,

00:16:19.340 so not just the Southport attack, but also the riots afterwards.

00:16:22.300 And it's a review. We don't know who wrote it.

00:16:24.060 It was commissioned by the then Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper,

00:16:26.920 who has now said, oh, no, no, it's not government policy.

00:16:29.680 No, no, no, we weren't going to enact this.

00:16:31.580 This doesn't represent government policy then or now.

00:16:33.860 But this is a review that says not only that, well,

00:16:36.380 we shouldn't just be focusing on ideology.

00:16:38.980 We should be looking at, you know, actions and things.

00:16:40.980 So ideology isn't really the big thing to look at in Prevent.

00:16:44.220 Well, apart from the fact that 80 or 90% of all attacks in this country,

00:16:47.820 which are terror attacks, are from Islamists, 0.89

00:16:50.860 80 or 90% of the deaths from terror attacks are from Islamists 0.92

00:16:54.460 based on that ideology.

00:16:55.780 Of course, you should be focusing your resources on that.

00:16:58.620 But it also said that we should focus more on non-crime incidents,

00:17:02.200 non-crime hate incidents.

00:17:03.240 By definition, not crime.

00:17:05.120 The non-crime bit is the clue.

00:17:06.560 But the idea that we should be failing to tackle a mad or bad teenager

00:17:12.120 in his bedroom who's planning to massacre in high school

00:17:15.860 and decides to go massacre little children at a Taylor Swift-themed holiday club,

00:17:20.300 but you're going to worry about literal non-crimes, frankly, is absurd.

00:17:26.420 I mean, and dangerous and immoral because it costs lives.

00:17:30.980 But that's what the government has been looking at.

00:17:32.580 So there are people right now on the government payroll, i.e. your and my payroll,

00:17:37.080 our taxes are paying their wages, whether they were freelance

00:17:39.320 or on staff in the civil service, who wrote a report basically saying,

00:17:43.920 yeah, the problem isn't ideology.

00:17:46.180 The problem is, you know, some incels or loan kids on the internet

00:17:52.640 and hurtie words.

00:17:54.800 And, Juliet...

00:17:55.800 Mad.

00:17:58.440 One of the things I find interesting is you talk about how Labour and Conservatives

00:18:03.580 are united in this, really.

00:18:05.700 They largely are, aren't they?

00:18:06.700 Effectively, right?

00:18:07.940 So why is our country in this position?

00:18:11.800 God, there's a question and a half.

00:18:14.280 But why is this happening?

00:18:15.620 That's a question that a lot of our and your audience will be asking.

00:18:18.800 It's like, how do we get here?

00:18:19.900 I came to this country in 1995.

00:18:23.100 Look, they're always going to be in a country of X million people,

00:18:26.520 atrocities and people who are violent.

00:18:28.260 And I remember Dunblane, very, very kind of, you know, terrible.

00:18:31.880 But this idea that sort of every few months there's a massive stabbing

00:18:36.200 in which people are killed or blown up or something.

00:18:39.120 And that kids are stabbing each other.

00:18:40.900 I wasn't a thing when I was a teenager.

00:18:43.640 It was at times, you know, in the early 2000s, there were, like, the postcode wars.

00:18:49.480 I wasn't a teenager.

00:18:52.400 I guess what I'm asking is something else, which is these terrorist attacks

00:18:57.520 and these incidents like the Southport stabbings.

00:19:01.980 They're definitely happening more now.

00:19:06.140 So why is that happening?

00:19:08.380 Why is our country in this position?

00:19:10.000 Because I hear you, lack of enforcement.

00:19:13.700 Look, I know a lot of police officers.

00:19:15.500 I know people in security.

00:19:16.540 I know a lot of police officers who are tearing their hair out of the failures.

00:19:19.340 Yeah.

00:19:20.460 They're tearing their hair out of the failures.

00:19:22.080 But I also think we'd probably accept that they have a bigger workload

00:19:25.360 on those issues than they've ever had.

00:19:27.120 Why is that?

00:19:27.580 I think there are lots of different, you know, social and demographic reasons.

00:19:30.960 I think we have imported a lot of people to this country 1.00

00:19:34.160 who don't like this country.

00:19:36.680 What's very interesting, actually, is the high rate of sort of violence incidents

00:19:40.880 from the children of immigrants. 0.78

00:19:42.800 Many immigrants come to the country, you know,

00:19:44.860 they want to make a better life for themselves.

00:19:46.480 All credit to them.

00:19:47.420 You want to prove your family's lot.

00:19:49.000 I've got no issue with that at all.

00:19:52.460 But their children often feel, from whichever background,

00:19:55.140 not just Muslim children, many other children,

00:19:58.040 will feel like, I don't quite belong.

00:19:59.440 I've kind of got a foot in both camps,

00:20:01.320 and I don't quite belong in either,

00:20:03.060 and will feel sort of an otherness, a separateness.

00:20:05.560 And that can breed problems.

00:20:08.360 Why is that, Julia?

00:20:09.440 Let's double-click on that, because we spend a lot of time in America,

00:20:12.640 and I don't see that in America.

00:20:13.880 America's got a very different attitude.

00:20:15.100 Look, you know, I went to school in America.

00:20:16.960 My mother lived there for a bit,

00:20:18.820 and we used to have to salute the flag

00:20:21.280 and sing the national anthem every morning,

00:20:22.840 with my hand on my chest and sing the national anthem.

00:20:25.580 And I said, well, I'm not American.

00:20:26.780 I mean, I was seven, eight, nine.

00:20:27.760 My mum said, yeah, but we're in America.

00:20:29.040 You do what, you know, you do what the deal is there.

00:20:32.800 It's about, you know, you're not, you know, a Muslim. 0.99

00:20:36.300 You know, you're a Muslim American.

00:20:37.640 You're an Arab American.

00:20:38.720 You're an Italian American.

00:20:40.120 You're African American.

00:20:41.420 It's very much, but you're American.

00:20:42.880 You're American.

00:20:43.720 It's a much prouder sort of thing.

00:20:45.580 I think one of the biggest issues we got,

00:20:47.340 and I don't think it's just the demographics,

00:20:48.640 because that's, I don't, I'm not a,

00:20:50.020 I'm not a, ooh, all our problems come from immigration. 1.00

00:20:52.340 Rubbish. 0.98

00:20:52.880 No, they don't. 1.00

00:20:53.680 Our problems are homegrown.

00:20:55.060 Fundamentally, our problems are homegrown.

00:20:56.580 I think it's in a political, media, academic elite,

00:21:01.660 who, and public sector elite as well,

00:21:04.740 and actually you can add in quite a lot of the private sector as well,

00:21:06.700 this elite who are just completely out of touch

00:21:09.040 with mainstream British opinion.

00:21:12.720 I think the vast majority of what most people think in the country,

00:21:16.060 who are signed up to an idea that everything about Britain's past,

00:21:21.420 everything about Britain's values,

00:21:23.380 everything about the white indigenous native population is wrong.

00:21:28.620 It's bad. 0.97

00:21:29.720 It's shameful.

00:21:31.240 Our colonial past is terrible.

00:21:33.720 Not only did we colonize the world and we enslaved people, 0.99

00:21:37.700 forget the fact that we were the first empire to end slavery,

00:21:40.820 then you get some value points for that.

00:21:42.500 No.

00:21:43.460 The fact that, you know, the Industrial Revolution,

00:21:45.680 we're responsible for more global emissions

00:21:48.640 because we invented the Industrial Revolution.

00:21:50.480 Oh, well, the reason why we're all alive right now and not dead

00:21:53.500 because we didn't have modern medicine

00:21:55.580 and we don't have, you know, mass production of food

00:21:58.000 and, you know, from fossil fuels.

00:21:59.680 I mean, again, I always say to people, you know,

00:22:01.420 the Industrial Revolution, you're welcome, world.

00:22:03.280 You're welcome.

00:22:04.780 We're...

00:22:05.200 They, not we, they are ashamed of everything.

00:22:08.280 They are moral and cultural relativists.

00:22:12.060 They think that all cultures are equal.

00:22:14.920 Blatantly untrue.

00:22:16.420 Because you know what?

00:22:17.220 There is not a mass exodus of people

00:22:19.620 from Western liberal democracies

00:22:22.020 desperately trying to get to Saudi Arabia,

00:22:25.160 to Iran, to Russia, to China, to Nigeria.

00:22:28.820 They're not desperately trying to get to those countries.

00:22:31.480 Why not?

00:22:32.360 Because they're coming the other direction.

00:22:33.920 Because we have a superior culture.

00:22:38.020 We have a superior morality.

00:22:40.120 Oh, can't say that.

00:22:41.960 You can't say that.

00:22:42.680 Well, yeah, I can, because it's true.

00:22:45.080 Because a culture where women and men are equal, 0.89

00:22:48.400 where gay men are not murdered simply,

00:22:51.260 or gay women for their sexuality,

00:22:53.660 where you're allowed to be of faith or not be of faith, 0.78

00:22:57.880 to marry out of your faith, leave your faith, 0.79

00:23:01.500 these are basic things which we take for granted in the West.

00:23:06.400 These are entirely new inventions

00:23:08.240 and they're inventions of Western liberal democracy

00:23:10.940 and you've got an entire political, academic, media class

00:23:14.220 who are very uncomfortable about it.

00:23:16.960 Even though they champion those things

00:23:18.320 and they're all, you know, the trans pride flag-waving folk,

00:23:21.800 at the same time, they will say that that morality

00:23:25.080 that enables that freedom in our country,

00:23:28.120 that that somehow is equal with the morality

00:23:30.780 and the culture of a country or a religion

00:23:33.340 or a part of the world where none of that is the case.

00:23:37.180 Now, you cannot hold both of those ideas in your head

00:23:40.580 at the same time and be a coherent human being

00:23:42.400 and yet that's what they're trying to do.

00:23:44.280 They are ashamed of our past, they're ashamed of our present,

00:23:47.960 they're ashamed of the British people,

00:23:49.440 they're ashamed and embarrassed the Emily Thorberry

00:23:51.840 sneering at White Van Man with his England flag. 0.70

00:23:55.460 How dare people say the England flag,

00:23:58.080 or even the Union flag, are owned by the far right.

00:24:00.900 How dare you?

00:24:01.820 They are my flags.

00:24:02.960 They represent my nation.

00:24:03.920 They're embarrassed by everything about British people 1.00

00:24:07.400 and I think that's how we got here.

00:24:10.700 I think that's how it's all been allowed to happen.

00:24:12.640 That lack of confidence in ourselves

00:24:15.700 is why we don't act correctly and strongly enough perhaps

00:24:20.040 on threats.

00:24:21.340 And we don't stand up for it because people are embarrassed

00:24:23.580 and again, the urge to virtue signal,

00:24:26.060 to say the quote, right thing.

00:24:28.020 I don't think you can underestimate the urge

00:24:30.780 to be thought of as a nice person

00:24:32.540 and invited to the right dinner parties.

00:24:34.180 How important that is.

00:24:35.260 I remember this.

00:24:36.160 When I learnt this, first of all,

00:24:38.100 when I was at the Sunday Express,

00:24:40.540 I was political editor at the Sunday Express

00:24:41.900 and we were constantly told,

00:24:44.040 stuff we were writing about,

00:24:45.920 maybe mass uncontrolled immigration

00:24:48.540 isn't always a good thing.

00:24:50.440 Just going to throw that out there.

00:24:51.780 So this is like, no.

00:24:52.980 Yeah, it turns out, yeah,

00:24:54.060 massive majority public opinion now.

00:24:56.760 When I was campaigning for Brexit in 2016

00:25:00.000 and I would have so many people,

00:25:01.780 I mean, you know,

00:25:02.520 well-known names in the British media and politics

00:25:04.780 who would say to me,

00:25:05.880 but you're one of us.

00:25:07.680 You know, you went to Oxford.

00:25:08.740 You're a clever girl.

00:25:09.560 You're in the media.

00:25:10.360 Surely you don't believe in this stuff.

00:25:14.160 I mean, come on.

00:25:15.140 It's like, yeah,

00:25:16.400 I believe in democratically elected parliaments

00:25:20.120 and governments

00:25:20.860 and self-determination

00:25:23.080 and national sovereignty

00:25:23.920 and they looked at me like I'd said,

00:25:26.120 I mean,

00:25:26.600 the most evil, awful thing in the world.

00:25:29.260 They don't mix with anyone 1.00

00:25:31.340 who thinks differently to them

00:25:33.080 and if you do think differently to them,

00:25:35.680 you are cast out.

00:25:36.920 Do you think we're in a moment now

00:25:39.320 where this can't hold on for much longer

00:25:42.640 simply because I think

00:25:44.620 Elon Musk's acquisition of Twitter

00:25:46.800 has changed things

00:25:47.980 and you can see with the grooming gangs,

00:25:50.360 which is an issue,

00:25:51.320 I think we should be fair

00:25:52.440 and say it was an issue

00:25:53.800 that was both exposed

00:25:54.960 and covered by the mainstream media

00:25:56.600 for quite some time.

00:25:57.440 Well, I mean,

00:25:57.840 this idea that Tommy Robinson exposed it,

00:25:59.960 no, he's sodding well, didn't.

00:26:01.320 Andrew Norfolk at the Times,

00:26:02.800 you know, people like Maggie Oliver.

00:26:04.080 On the one hand.

00:26:05.580 On the other hand,

00:26:06.840 certainly I would say

00:26:07.960 it was not covered nearly enough

00:26:09.320 and consistently for a long time

00:26:11.000 and what we then saw is

00:26:12.400 Elon Musk and others

00:26:15.120 amplifying the voices of survivors

00:26:17.420 and campaigners, etc., online

00:26:19.360 and so now

00:26:21.260 it's starting to feel to me

00:26:23.240 like because of that freedom,

00:26:25.300 you can't really keep the lid down

00:26:27.840 on all this stuff anymore.

00:26:28.680 I think two things have happened.

00:26:30.220 One is

00:26:30.760 when you've called everyone far right,

00:26:33.880 I mean,

00:26:34.180 then it has no meaning anymore

00:26:35.340 and people,

00:26:35.920 you know,

00:26:36.040 the Dominic Frisbee song,

00:26:37.080 we're all far right now,

00:26:38.460 but that's it.

00:26:39.200 Okay,

00:26:39.540 we're just going to laugh back at you.

00:26:41.320 It doesn't...

00:26:41.920 Those words,

00:26:43.340 the racism,

00:26:44.280 bigotry,

00:26:44.780 those words don't have the power anymore

00:26:47.580 to shut people down.

00:26:49.000 People,

00:26:49.420 no,

00:26:49.800 I'm not having it,

00:26:50.760 you know,

00:26:51.220 but I agree with you on X

00:26:53.200 and the freedom,

00:26:54.240 I mean,

00:26:54.540 on so many different issues to talk,

00:26:56.300 but I think also

00:26:57.300 there's been an emperor's

00:26:59.220 new clothes moment.

00:27:00.340 You know,

00:27:01.240 suddenly the crowd

00:27:02.600 has stopped shouting

00:27:03.580 for just long enough

00:27:04.520 for us to all hear

00:27:05.200 the little boy go,

00:27:06.880 but the emperor

00:27:08.540 isn't wearing any clothes.

00:27:10.580 But what you've been telling us

00:27:12.060 for years isn't true.

00:27:15.040 You've been failing us.

00:27:16.480 You've been lying to us

00:27:17.500 and failing us,

00:27:18.820 telling us what you think

00:27:19.660 we want to hear

00:27:20.280 and then abusing us.

00:27:21.620 I mean,

00:27:21.920 we've been in a...

00:27:23.220 The British people

00:27:24.040 have been in an abusive,

00:27:25.320 coercive relationship

00:27:26.540 with the British state

00:27:28.140 for the last 20,

00:27:29.400 30 years.

00:27:30.540 We have been groomed.

00:27:33.500 No, seriously,

00:27:34.220 we have been

00:27:34.840 sort of controlled

00:27:36.920 and patted on the head

00:27:38.900 and talked,

00:27:39.240 there, there, there,

00:27:39.960 don't worry,

00:27:40.320 no, no, no,

00:27:40.940 we'll deal with that.

00:27:41.960 Don't you worry

00:27:42.360 you're pretty light heads.

00:27:43.100 And then the exact opposite

00:27:44.160 has been done

00:27:44.640 and we've been gaslighted

00:27:45.500 and we go,

00:27:45.980 oh, but you haven't done

00:27:46.580 what you said you'd do.

00:27:48.060 Yeah, we have.

00:27:49.400 Yeah, we have.

00:27:50.560 And I just think

00:27:51.600 there are just sometimes

00:27:53.120 these little moments

00:27:54.300 where everyone goes,

00:27:56.340 hold on a minute.

00:27:58.040 And the truth is out,

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00:29:31.680 The worrying thing is, Julia,

00:29:33.460 is I was looking at polls

00:29:34.860 the other day

00:29:35.560 where it was showing

00:29:36.240 that the Gen Z's faith

00:29:38.220 in democracy

00:29:39.120 Oh, terrifying.

00:29:40.440 is at rock bottom.

00:29:42.180 And then the part of me

00:29:43.620 the outraged millennial

00:29:45.780 was like,

00:29:46.240 well, young people.

00:29:47.240 And then I thought,

00:29:48.460 well, let's look at it

00:29:49.240 from the perspective

00:29:49.940 of first principles.

00:29:51.500 Yeah.

00:29:52.480 You voted

00:29:53.280 to lower immigration.

00:29:55.020 Immigration hasn't gone down.

00:29:56.200 By the way,

00:29:56.540 Gen Z didn't vote for that. 0.99

00:29:57.620 Yeah, but we voted.

00:29:58.880 They're what,

00:29:59.400 like 30 to 17-year-olds?

00:30:01.480 27-year-olds?

00:30:02.120 Something like that, yeah.

00:30:03.000 But we voted

00:30:04.000 to lower immigration.

00:30:04.960 Immigration wasn't lowered.

00:30:06.840 In fact,

00:30:07.500 it was raised

00:30:08.180 time and time

00:30:09.500 and time again.

00:30:10.920 Policies that we demanded

00:30:12.220 have not only been ignored,

00:30:15.000 they have also done

00:30:16.100 the exact opposite.

00:30:17.500 So when Gen Z 0.85

00:30:18.340 turned around and go,

00:30:19.480 I don't really have

00:30:21.860 an argument,

00:30:22.380 do you?

00:30:23.360 I do.

00:30:23.960 I do.

00:30:24.360 Because as I said,

00:30:25.080 there's a reason why people,

00:30:26.260 everyone talks about

00:30:26.780 strong-round politics,

00:30:27.820 but no one is moving

00:30:28.940 to those countries

00:30:29.860 desperate to make

00:30:30.620 a new life there.

00:30:31.360 They want to come to democracy.

00:30:32.600 As Winston Churchill

00:30:33.500 famously said,

00:30:34.280 democracy is the worst

00:30:35.440 form of government

00:30:36.020 apart from all the others.

00:30:37.020 I mean,

00:30:38.780 again,

00:30:39.100 one of the reasons

00:30:39.500 I was a Brexiteer,

00:30:40.500 you know,

00:30:40.680 I want democratic

00:30:41.420 accountability.

00:30:42.380 So my thing was,

00:30:43.040 I didn't think that

00:30:44.020 us not being ruled

00:30:45.320 by Brussels

00:30:45.960 was going to

00:30:46.860 immediately make

00:30:47.900 Britain a better place

00:30:48.800 and get more

00:30:49.280 accountable policies.

00:30:50.660 My thing was,

00:30:51.620 yeah,

00:30:51.920 but when they

00:30:52.520 bugger it up,

00:30:53.520 as I know they will

00:30:54.540 under Boris Johnson,

00:30:56.020 Liz Druss,

00:30:56.540 and Rishi Sunak,

00:30:57.500 and Kirsten, 0.87

00:30:58.080 and everyone else,

00:30:59.120 at least we can blame them

00:31:00.820 and they can't say,

00:31:02.280 what can I do?

00:31:03.680 Brussels wouldn't let us do it.

00:31:04.900 Those are the EU rules.

00:31:05.800 I want to know,

00:31:06.960 you know,

00:31:07.200 you're accountable to me.

00:31:08.820 I'm a voter.

00:31:09.540 You're accountable to me,

00:31:10.780 not to them,

00:31:11.600 and I want you to act.

00:31:12.520 And when you fail to act,

00:31:13.360 you will be punished,

00:31:14.000 which is why the Tories

00:31:14.840 are not in power

00:31:15.460 and why Labour is in power now.

00:31:17.160 Let me push back on that.

00:31:18.900 What about,

00:31:19.740 okay,

00:31:20.100 the kid will go,

00:31:20.840 right,

00:31:21.020 what about illegal immigration,

00:31:22.300 Julia?

00:31:22.700 We've done nothing to solve it

00:31:24.120 and whenever we've tried

00:31:25.220 to do something,

00:31:26.600 it's a European...

00:31:27.560 That is actually not true.

00:31:29.200 We have processed

00:31:30.160 lots of assignments

00:31:30.960 by granting them all.

00:31:33.520 Yeah,

00:31:33.840 yeah,

00:31:34.380 yeah.

00:31:34.700 That one,

00:31:35.900 then it solved it.

00:31:36.620 Then they don't know.

00:31:37.060 Yeah, yeah,

00:31:37.240 there's no more backlash.

00:31:38.620 But it's a European Court

00:31:39.840 of Human Rights.

00:31:40.420 No,

00:31:40.520 but democracy does not ensure

00:31:41.940 that you get everything

00:31:42.660 you want from any government

00:31:44.020 or that they will do

00:31:44.900 what you want.

00:31:45.460 What it ensures is

00:31:46.200 you get to get rid of them

00:31:47.400 when they fail.

00:31:48.080 So Tories have failed,

00:31:49.520 Labour will fail.

00:31:50.660 Okay,

00:31:51.040 well,

00:31:51.200 who do we choose next time?

00:31:52.220 Well,

00:31:52.500 the Tories aren't going

00:31:53.180 to get back in

00:31:53.760 unless the Tories

00:31:54.420 are believable

00:31:55.780 that they will actually

00:31:56.780 take on those issues

00:31:58.660 that they've failed

00:31:59.320 on in the last 14 years.

00:32:02.500 Reform need to be viable.

00:32:04.880 Realistically,

00:32:05.500 we need to probably see

00:32:06.700 a uniting of the right

00:32:08.440 in whatever form

00:32:09.320 to defeat Labour

00:32:10.580 on that front.

00:32:11.380 Do I trust any of them

00:32:12.320 right now?

00:32:12.900 No,

00:32:13.200 I don't.

00:32:13.660 But you know what?

00:32:14.480 That doesn't mean

00:32:15.240 democracy doesn't work.

00:32:16.120 But what I found most

00:32:16.920 worrying about that

00:32:17.580 is that,

00:32:18.260 you say,

00:32:18.560 it was like 52%

00:32:20.360 of young people

00:32:21.420 basically said

00:32:22.160 they didn't see

00:32:23.380 the point of democracy

00:32:24.080 and our country

00:32:24.780 would do better

00:32:25.340 under a strong man,

00:32:26.540 a strong leader

00:32:27.140 who didn't have to,

00:32:28.120 you know,

00:32:28.900 deal with voters

00:32:29.660 and elections,

00:32:30.540 which is all very well.

00:32:31.740 But again,

00:32:32.360 you can actually

00:32:33.600 have someone

00:32:33.960 who can drive the economy.

00:32:34.780 I mean,

00:32:34.900 look at China 0.96

00:32:35.500 under Xi Jinping.

00:32:36.820 The economy's

00:32:37.520 booming forward.

00:32:38.840 Yeah,

00:32:39.240 and sorry about

00:32:39.940 all the people

00:32:40.440 who were in prison

00:32:41.100 and the people

00:32:41.940 in the slave labour camps

00:32:43.280 and people who get,

00:32:44.620 you know,

00:32:45.040 beaten and tortured

00:32:45.720 and disappeared

00:32:46.460 because they talk

00:32:47.840 about democracy.

00:32:48.680 You know,

00:32:48.960 sorry about those people.

00:32:50.540 People are under

00:32:51.080 a complete illusion.

00:32:51.880 And again,

00:32:52.300 that is part of the whole,

00:32:53.940 the elites,

00:32:55.100 the ruling classes,

00:32:56.500 not defending our values,

00:32:58.040 not defending

00:32:58.780 freedom of speech.

00:33:00.380 freedom of thought.

00:33:02.820 Yeah,

00:33:03.000 remember,

00:33:03.300 whoever thought

00:33:03.800 that would be an issue,

00:33:04.940 not defending democracy,

00:33:07.280 the importance of voting,

00:33:08.760 not defending

00:33:09.460 these fundamental

00:33:10.500 basic tenets

00:33:12.000 of Western liberal democracy,

00:33:14.560 thinking that

00:33:15.240 it doesn't really matter,

00:33:16.800 you know,

00:33:17.100 and it does.

00:33:18.180 And these things

00:33:18.980 need defending

00:33:19.720 every generation.

00:33:21.820 But if you've got a,

00:33:22.820 you've got a class

00:33:23.580 that are in charge

00:33:24.200 of the national conversation

00:33:25.580 who don't actually

00:33:27.580 really believe

00:33:28.600 in any of those things,

00:33:29.880 if when you do have,

00:33:31.220 you know,

00:33:31.480 the biggest national

00:33:32.440 public vote

00:33:32.980 for anything

00:33:33.460 ever in this country

00:33:35.180 for Brexit

00:33:35.900 and you,

00:33:37.020 if you're the Prime Minister now,

00:33:38.400 Keir Starmer,

00:33:38.840 spend four years

00:33:39.680 of your life

00:33:40.200 trying to stop that

00:33:41.080 from happening

00:33:41.680 to undermine

00:33:42.420 a democratic vote,

00:33:43.860 you're saying that

00:33:44.840 it doesn't matter.

00:33:46.900 I mean,

00:33:47.160 it's untenable.

00:33:49.080 These people think

00:33:49.680 that Donald Trump

00:33:50.260 is unfit

00:33:50.840 for public office

00:33:51.600 because of what he did

00:33:52.280 to try and overturn

00:33:52.960 the 2020 election.

00:33:54.160 And I would agree

00:33:54.780 with them on that front,

00:33:55.900 even though I massively

00:33:57.120 welcome him getting elected

00:33:58.740 this time round,

00:34:00.080 given the options available.

00:34:01.560 Keir Starmer

00:34:02.220 spent exactly

00:34:03.540 the same amount of time

00:34:04.260 doing exactly

00:34:04.820 the same thing.

00:34:06.040 I mean,

00:34:06.300 but apparently

00:34:07.060 he's all right

00:34:08.300 because he was doing

00:34:09.040 it on the left.

00:34:11.040 I just think

00:34:12.360 there is absolutely

00:34:13.160 an answer

00:34:13.660 to those teenagers

00:34:14.620 and those 25-year-olds

00:34:16.140 to say that,

00:34:17.080 no,

00:34:17.520 what we,

00:34:18.360 our values

00:34:19.080 and our system

00:34:19.740 is,

00:34:20.380 it's not perfect,

00:34:21.760 but it's better

00:34:22.720 than the alternatives.

00:34:23.680 I do agree with you.

00:34:25.240 But then when we talk,

00:34:26.960 for instance,

00:34:27.400 we interviewed Liz Truss

00:34:28.720 in this very room

00:34:29.500 and she said

00:34:30.560 that she couldn't do anything

00:34:31.860 because of the civil servants,

00:34:34.280 that they try

00:34:35.080 and implement policies

00:34:36.300 and that the civil service

00:34:37.720 rebuff them.

00:34:38.440 Then you go,

00:34:39.380 well,

00:34:39.640 do we actually live

00:34:40.480 in a democracy

00:34:41.100 or do we have

00:34:42.360 this unelected,

00:34:43.320 unaccountable blob

00:34:44.580 who are actually in charge?

00:34:46.800 Well,

00:34:46.840 we do,

00:34:47.240 but here's the thing,

00:34:47.880 let's get rid of them

00:34:48.420 and I love that.

00:34:49.200 It's one of the things that,

00:34:50.020 well,

00:34:50.420 we're told we've got

00:34:51.160 this world-class,

00:34:52.680 first-class,

00:34:53.560 you know,

00:34:54.060 civil service.

00:34:55.180 I mean,

00:34:55.500 they kind of forget,

00:34:56.480 you know,

00:34:56.640 you're civil servants.

00:34:58.300 You're civil,

00:34:59.040 so you're not political

00:34:59.880 and you're servants.

00:35:01.520 You don't get to decide.

00:35:02.900 You advise,

00:35:03.820 you give information

00:35:04.660 to the person

00:35:05.560 who is elected

00:35:06.240 and we don't have a system

00:35:07.560 where our cabinet ministers

00:35:09.280 are experts in the subject.

00:35:11.120 There's both,

00:35:11.700 the civil servants

00:35:12.420 are supposed to be the experts,

00:35:13.980 but then they,

00:35:14.800 the choices are made

00:35:15.740 by democratically

00:35:16.500 accountable politicians

00:35:17.580 and if they refuse

00:35:18.880 to actually stand by that,

00:35:21.160 on both sides,

00:35:22.200 then yeah,

00:35:22.640 they deserve to be ousted.

00:35:24.380 But I would like

00:35:25.280 a Trumpian type revolution.

00:35:27.400 We literally go,

00:35:28.460 you know,

00:35:28.880 if you're not prepared

00:35:29.800 to do what you're told

00:35:30.560 by your cabinet minister,

00:35:31.800 unless,

00:35:32.180 you know,

00:35:32.300 life is at stake,

00:35:33.860 you know,

00:35:34.320 I'm sorry,

00:35:35.500 bye-bye,

00:35:36.100 go and get another job.

00:35:37.800 That you're not welcome here

00:35:38.880 and the ability

00:35:40.260 to hire political activists

00:35:42.480 in those roles

00:35:43.920 because we have

00:35:45.000 a political activist

00:35:45.920 civil service,

00:35:46.940 but they only have

00:35:47.900 one set of views.

00:35:48.860 But I,

00:35:50.820 even if I agreed

00:35:51.720 with everything

00:35:52.240 that the civil service

00:35:53.180 was doing,

00:35:53.640 I still would think

00:35:54.460 it was wrong.

00:35:56.500 And with that in mind,

00:35:58.580 I don't see either

00:35:59.880 the Tories or Labour

00:36:00.780 obviously doing anything

00:36:01.720 about that.

00:36:03.260 And reform are interesting

00:36:04.820 in only,

00:36:06.320 if only in the sense

00:36:07.760 that they seem to be,

00:36:09.060 according to some polls

00:36:10.300 this week,

00:36:11.060 number one in the polls.

00:36:13.300 What do you make

00:36:14.220 of them?

00:36:15.160 And you mentioned

00:36:16.100 that the only way

00:36:16.760 for them to succeed

00:36:17.440 would be to unite.

00:36:18.820 Well, not only way,

00:36:19.700 but it looks like.

00:36:20.640 It looks like it

00:36:21.360 at this point.

00:36:21.900 It's early on.

00:36:22.580 But the thing that I find

00:36:23.920 kind of interesting

00:36:25.060 is just talking to people

00:36:26.780 on both sides

00:36:27.520 of that divide.

00:36:28.900 They hate each other

00:36:29.920 as only next door neighbours can.

00:36:31.520 Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:32.940 So that doesn't seem

00:36:34.840 like a likely outcome.

00:36:36.100 It doesn't.

00:36:36.500 And Nigel Farage feels like

00:36:37.540 he had his fingers burnt

00:36:38.880 back in 2019.

00:36:40.080 Everyone forgets

00:36:40.940 the reason why Boris Johnson

00:36:42.120 got an 80 majority

00:36:43.640 was A,

00:36:44.300 he was up against

00:36:44.960 Jeremy Corbyn,

00:36:46.160 and B,

00:36:47.980 because reform stood down

00:36:49.400 some sort of 250 candidates

00:36:51.420 and gave the Tories

00:36:52.520 a clear run.

00:36:53.680 Nigel Farage said

00:36:54.320 he had his fingers burnt

00:36:55.040 then.

00:36:55.240 He wasn't happy

00:36:55.760 with the Brexit deal

00:36:56.480 that Boris Johnson did.

00:36:58.020 His hands were remarkably

00:36:59.160 tied by Theresa May

00:37:00.620 before that.

00:37:01.720 So I'm not sure

00:37:02.140 that's completely fair

00:37:03.500 criticism.

00:37:05.220 But fundamentally,

00:37:06.020 he says,

00:37:06.240 no, thanks.

00:37:07.960 I'm not doing it anymore.

00:37:08.980 And to a certain extent,

00:37:09.800 the party,

00:37:11.120 as the Tories are now,

00:37:12.560 I can't see how they can

00:37:14.520 actually unite

00:37:15.540 with reform.

00:37:16.880 I mean,

00:37:17.120 Kenny Bagnock

00:37:18.020 has made it very clear

00:37:19.200 that's not what she's going.

00:37:20.660 But I think also

00:37:21.400 so many Tory MPs

00:37:23.060 are,

00:37:24.380 I mean,

00:37:24.600 they could be Lib Dems.

00:37:25.900 But they could be Lib Dems.

00:37:27.100 A lot of them went off

00:37:27.900 to be Lib Dems.

00:37:29.020 I won't tell you

00:37:30.440 who said this exactly,

00:37:31.580 but I happen to be...

00:37:33.280 Will I be able to guess?

00:37:34.580 I don't think you will,

00:37:35.520 because there's quite a lot

00:37:36.420 of people who fit this

00:37:37.300 description,

00:37:37.880 because a Tory MP,

00:37:39.800 when I asked him

00:37:40.680 in a private conversation

00:37:42.180 why they lost

00:37:43.620 the last election,

00:37:44.960 he went,

00:37:45.540 oh yeah,

00:37:45.760 we lost to the Lib Dems,

00:37:46.840 we need to move

00:37:47.420 to the left.

00:37:48.100 Yeah, I know.

00:37:48.640 It's literally like...

00:37:50.140 And there's quite a lot

00:37:51.280 of those people.

00:37:51.960 And this is what people

00:37:52.640 say to me...

00:37:53.160 Well, you don't win

00:37:53.700 elections anywhere,

00:37:54.540 but the centre ground

00:37:55.360 comes in.

00:37:56.240 But here's the thing,

00:37:57.060 they don't know

00:37:57.560 where the centre...

00:37:57.960 They think the centre ground

00:37:59.140 is what is actually

00:38:00.240 an extreme leftist position.

00:38:02.800 The British public

00:38:03.740 aren't extreme...

00:38:04.520 Actually, they're quite

00:38:05.400 on the left

00:38:05.960 when it comes to

00:38:06.500 economic policy.

00:38:08.080 Nationalise this,

00:38:08.840 nationalise that,

00:38:09.660 you know,

00:38:10.220 loads of public services

00:38:11.440 and things.

00:38:12.120 But actually,

00:38:13.080 you know,

00:38:13.360 on culture issues,

00:38:15.160 on things like education...

00:38:15.980 The British public

00:38:16.660 and on remotely

00:38:17.300 left wing...

00:38:17.720 Yeah, on crime

00:38:18.760 and justice

00:38:19.340 and immigration.

00:38:21.020 No, very much

00:38:22.200 centre-right,

00:38:22.920 but centre-right.

00:38:23.720 We've never had

00:38:25.000 a successful

00:38:25.720 hard-right 0.98

00:38:27.440 or far-right party

00:38:28.580 in this country.

00:38:29.400 But by the way,

00:38:30.040 the EU is wonderful

00:38:31.240 and lovely.

00:38:32.260 They're far-right

00:38:33.200 and literally,

00:38:34.140 literally far-right,

00:38:35.080 not hard-right,

00:38:35.920 not, you know,

00:38:36.980 anti-immigration parties.

00:38:37.780 I'm talking properly

00:38:38.440 far-right parties

00:38:39.200 do very well.

00:38:40.840 But this is the thing.

00:38:42.360 I just think

00:38:43.180 the Conservatives,

00:38:43.840 they stop being Conservative.

00:38:45.140 Conservative Party members

00:38:46.420 are still Conservative.

00:38:47.820 We're not talking

00:38:48.700 about policies

00:38:49.620 that when reform,

00:38:51.380 their policies,

00:38:52.020 there's not a single

00:38:52.660 reform policy

00:38:53.560 that is not something

00:38:54.900 that would be considered

00:38:55.600 completely reasonable

00:38:57.220 20 or 30 years ago.

00:38:58.820 So do you see that

00:39:01.820 as the vehicle

00:39:02.580 through which

00:39:03.180 our democracy

00:39:04.060 is more reflective

00:39:05.900 of the views

00:39:06.440 of the public?

00:39:07.260 I mean,

00:39:07.480 it depends,

00:39:08.100 isn't it?

00:39:08.320 What's so different

00:39:09.320 here from the rest

00:39:11.080 of mainland Europe

00:39:12.660 is our voting system.

00:39:14.300 I'm a big fan

00:39:15.100 of First Past the Post.

00:39:16.460 I don't like

00:39:17.220 coalition governments

00:39:17.900 that take six months

00:39:18.800 to put together

00:39:19.500 and can fall apart

00:39:20.420 because the Greens

00:39:21.820 have decided

00:39:22.380 to leave coalition.

00:39:23.580 No, thank you.

00:39:24.440 I want a government.

00:39:26.320 Here's your choice

00:39:27.220 at the election.

00:39:27.780 You know,

00:39:28.320 this or this.

00:39:30.400 I do think

00:39:31.440 the barrier to entry

00:39:34.100 to become

00:39:35.020 a viable opposition

00:39:36.640 or a government

00:39:37.460 for a political party

00:39:38.720 in this country

00:39:39.140 is very high.

00:39:40.920 Perhaps it's not

00:39:41.520 a bad thing

00:39:42.240 that it's very high.

00:39:42.760 You need to be

00:39:43.360 a serious organisation.

00:39:46.000 I think the financial barriers

00:39:47.240 are too high, certainly.

00:39:48.080 And I don't know what,

00:39:49.060 I'm not quite sure yet

00:39:50.000 in my head

00:39:50.320 what we do do about that

00:39:51.520 because I'm not a big fan

00:39:52.340 of multi-billionaires

00:39:53.800 funding political parties

00:39:55.960 in that way.

00:39:56.940 But whichever the parties

00:39:58.400 whether I support or not.

00:39:59.860 But we've seen,

00:40:00.740 I remember you think back

00:40:01.280 like 1983

00:40:01.980 because I am that old,

00:40:03.220 the SDP Liberal Alliance.

00:40:04.800 The SDP got like

00:40:05.520 a handful of seats

00:40:06.780 and they've got

00:40:07.560 sort of 20 odd seats

00:40:08.580 between them

00:40:09.360 with 25% of the vote.

00:40:12.240 You know,

00:40:12.860 and that's easy to do.

00:40:14.240 Lib Dems talked

00:40:14.860 an awful lot about

00:40:15.860 changing the electoral system.

00:40:18.220 They mention it

00:40:18.820 every now and then now

00:40:19.780 but with 70 odd MPs

00:40:21.300 not so bothered anymore.

00:40:22.300 So I think the key thing

00:40:23.720 for reform,

00:40:24.260 reform are going to need

00:40:25.100 to be around the 30% mark

00:40:26.500 to get a serious number

00:40:27.760 of MPs

00:40:28.420 and be a serious force.

00:40:30.020 But I think they're already,

00:40:31.500 their five MPs,

00:40:32.420 I think already are having

00:40:33.280 such an impact

00:40:34.260 by refusing to

00:40:36.140 tow quite literally

00:40:37.640 a party line

00:40:38.620 in the Tories or Labour

00:40:39.740 in not asking

00:40:40.820 difficult questions,

00:40:41.860 in not being afraid

00:40:42.760 of being jeered at

00:40:43.760 or booed

00:40:44.480 or tut-hutted

00:40:46.040 in the Commons

00:40:46.660 and just saying the stuff

00:40:48.200 that people want them to say.

00:40:50.640 I think,

00:40:51.600 I mean,

00:40:51.780 certainly for my audience

00:40:52.640 at Talk,

00:40:53.400 they are absolutely

00:40:54.820 hitting the right note

00:40:56.140 and if they can keep

00:40:57.220 their act together

00:40:58.040 and we don't see

00:40:59.580 some of the sort of

00:41:00.140 selection of candidates

00:41:01.180 that we've seen

00:41:01.660 that's been a disaster

00:41:02.500 in the past,

00:41:03.540 I think they'll go

00:41:04.680 a long way

00:41:05.280 and I can't see,

00:41:07.140 I can't see Nigel Farage

00:41:08.360 being willing to do

00:41:09.300 a deal with the Tories

00:41:11.220 but I equally can't see

00:41:12.760 the Tories being willing

00:41:13.720 to go to reform positions

00:41:15.440 a lot of things

00:41:16.000 or,

00:41:17.140 crucially,

00:41:17.740 even with Kimi Badenock

00:41:18.740 as leader

00:41:19.140 who's someone I do like a lot

00:41:20.480 being thought of

00:41:21.540 as credible on that

00:41:23.220 given everything

00:41:24.500 they've said before

00:41:25.660 and have failed on.

00:41:27.620 And why do you like

00:41:28.320 Kimi Badenock?

00:41:29.540 Because she actually

00:41:30.560 has talked the talk

00:41:31.400 on some key issues.

00:41:34.000 Trans ideology 0.60

00:41:35.360 and its attack

00:41:36.300 on women's

00:41:36.880 and girls' safety

00:41:37.780 and rights.

00:41:40.220 She has talked the talk

00:41:40.960 on that

00:41:41.260 and walked the walk

00:41:42.100 on that

00:41:42.400 and stood up on that,

00:41:43.380 gone out of collective

00:41:44.600 cabinet responsibility

00:41:45.780 on that.

00:41:46.380 She has also

00:41:48.760 been very open

00:41:49.780 and again,

00:41:50.380 much easier for her

00:41:51.260 again as a woman

00:41:52.520 of Nigerian descent

00:41:53.420 to talk about

00:41:55.200 cultural issues

00:41:56.840 and stuff

00:41:57.380 and be open

00:41:58.260 about that

00:41:58.700 and say we need

00:41:59.440 to tackle that

00:41:59.980 and I like her

00:42:00.660 for that.

00:42:01.660 I'd love to know

00:42:02.420 where she was

00:42:02.840 during lockdown.

00:42:04.680 Where people stood

00:42:06.580 in lockdown

00:42:07.000 is still a big

00:42:08.620 determinant for me.

00:42:11.160 Did you fight

00:42:12.060 against Brexit

00:42:12.760 after it had been

00:42:13.400 voted for?

00:42:14.240 Are you a Democrat?

00:42:14.860 That's simple as that.

00:42:16.120 No, Liberal Democrats,

00:42:17.060 neither Liberal

00:42:17.440 nor Democrat.

00:42:18.120 Done.

00:42:19.340 People who kept

00:42:20.380 quiet on lockdown

00:42:21.340 long after it was

00:42:22.760 blatantly obvious

00:42:24.520 that lockdown,

00:42:25.680 by the way,

00:42:26.100 this was around

00:42:26.640 June 2020,

00:42:27.760 if you were still

00:42:28.720 not campaigning

00:42:29.880 against lockdown

00:42:30.500 in early 2021,

00:42:33.060 I want to know

00:42:33.880 where you were

00:42:34.340 and I want to know

00:42:34.760 your reasoning

00:42:35.240 because unless you

00:42:35.840 were trapped

00:42:36.180 underneath something

00:42:36.920 heavy

00:42:37.300 and unable to reach

00:42:39.440 a telephone

00:42:39.900 or a Zoom call,

00:42:41.080 then I want to know

00:42:41.620 where you were.

00:42:43.240 It's a good proxy

00:42:44.100 for independent

00:42:44.820 thought,

00:42:45.360 isn't it?

00:42:46.040 But also

00:42:46.640 the willingness

00:42:47.920 to say stuff

00:42:49.920 that's unpopular

00:42:51.080 at the time,

00:42:51.620 but that is right.

00:42:52.980 Yes,

00:42:53.760 absolutely.

00:42:55.780 It's interesting.

00:42:57.480 Yes,

00:42:58.400 sorry,

00:42:58.840 I've lost my train

00:42:59.400 of thought.

00:43:00.020 Go ahead.

00:43:01.280 You can't get

00:43:01.880 the quality of

00:43:02.540 questions.

00:43:04.260 You know what

00:43:05.040 the problem is

00:43:05.760 and there's

00:43:06.600 something else

00:43:07.280 that I think,

00:43:08.200 this is actually

00:43:09.120 one of the main

00:43:09.760 reasons I voted

00:43:10.680 Remain.

00:43:11.060 It's not because

00:43:12.080 I didn't agree

00:43:13.180 with some of the

00:43:13.680 arguments for Brexit.

00:43:15.360 It's not because

00:43:16.180 I didn't think

00:43:17.640 that if it was

00:43:18.780 handled capably

00:43:20.040 it would be a success.

00:43:22.080 There are perfectly

00:43:22.360 good reasons

00:43:22.820 to have voted Remain.

00:43:24.020 But my problem

00:43:25.520 was I looked

00:43:26.700 at our politicians

00:43:29.400 and I go,

00:43:30.620 none of you

00:43:31.200 are competent

00:43:32.180 enough to be able

00:43:32.980 to deliver this.

00:43:33.680 But you thought

00:43:34.300 the European

00:43:34.740 commissioners were?

00:43:35.740 The status

00:43:39.140 quote for me

00:43:39.800 was better

00:43:40.380 than the

00:43:42.080 calibre.

00:43:43.200 I said,

00:43:43.760 genuinely,

00:43:44.240 and I know I

00:43:44.580 popped on it

00:43:45.000 a couple of times

00:43:45.340 because I do

00:43:45.740 think that was

00:43:46.240 a really telling

00:43:46.780 moment in

00:43:47.180 modern history.

00:43:49.920 There's not a

00:43:50.640 single day when

00:43:51.560 I would not put

00:43:52.180 that in my top

00:43:52.740 10 greatest

00:43:53.220 days of my life.

00:43:54.440 I've had some

00:43:55.100 great days.

00:43:56.420 But I don't

00:43:57.500 want to talk

00:43:57.840 about Brexit

00:43:58.260 because for me

00:43:59.200 it's done and

00:44:00.040 whatever else.

00:44:00.940 I'm talking

00:44:01.640 about calibre

00:44:03.200 of politicians.

00:44:04.600 I'm talking

00:44:04.980 about competition

00:44:05.720 when people

00:44:06.800 talk about

00:44:07.280 the poor

00:44:07.620 calibre of

00:44:08.060 British

00:44:08.260 politicians

00:44:08.740 and people

00:44:09.260 say,

00:44:09.640 when are you

00:44:10.060 going to

00:44:10.260 rob politics?

00:44:10.760 I couldn't

00:44:11.140 tell the line.

00:44:11.840 There's no way.

00:44:12.640 There's no way.

00:44:13.500 I mean,

00:44:13.920 my skeletons

00:44:14.400 in my closet,

00:44:15.140 they're mostly

00:44:16.020 out and about,

00:44:16.660 I'm pretty sure.

00:44:17.720 I just think

00:44:18.360 it's a terrible

00:44:18.880 life.

00:44:19.840 I can see a

00:44:20.380 point when

00:44:20.640 I go,

00:44:21.180 right,

00:44:21.400 I'm done,

00:44:22.100 I'm going

00:44:22.500 in,

00:44:22.820 I'm going

00:44:23.060 to have

00:44:23.260 to do this.

00:44:24.080 But we

00:44:25.460 criticise

00:44:26.180 politicians,

00:44:26.800 but we don't

00:44:27.180 do it

00:44:27.460 ourselves.

00:44:27.980 And also

00:44:28.260 people expect

00:44:28.940 politicians to

00:44:29.660 have this

00:44:30.320 perfect,

00:44:30.740 squeaky,

00:44:31.060 clean life

00:44:31.760 or to never

00:44:32.680 say anything.

00:44:32.980 I don't.

00:44:33.520 Most people

00:44:33.940 do it.

00:44:34.380 Never to say

00:44:35.180 anything slightly

00:44:35.920 wrong,

00:44:36.900 never to have

00:44:38.400 a gaffe.

00:44:39.080 I mean,

00:44:39.640 people have

00:44:40.200 such ridiculously

00:44:41.240 high expectations

00:44:42.100 of politicians.

00:44:43.100 And I know

00:44:43.520 people go,

00:44:43.900 oh,

00:44:43.920 they're paid so

00:44:44.520 much.

00:44:45.040 Not compared

00:44:45.720 to actually

00:44:46.240 not very well.

00:44:47.280 They're not paid

00:44:48.060 well at all.

00:44:48.260 They're not paid

00:44:48.680 well at all.

00:44:48.980 Exactly.

00:44:49.500 They're not.

00:44:50.300 For that job?

00:44:51.000 For that job?

00:44:51.600 Seven days a week?

00:44:52.440 I wouldn't do it

00:44:53.000 for ten times

00:44:53.640 what they're paid.

00:44:54.140 No,

00:44:54.300 it's a rotten job.

00:44:55.280 And I think,

00:44:55.960 you know,

00:44:56.240 we have to,

00:44:57.260 you know,

00:44:57.600 if you're not

00:44:57.980 going to stand

00:44:58.480 yourself,

00:44:59.800 I don't think

00:45:00.280 that's a fair

00:45:00.740 criticism.

00:45:01.560 Interesting.

00:45:02.080 I mean,

00:45:02.340 that is a fair,

00:45:03.140 my line on that, 0.70

00:45:04.760 slightly more cowardly

00:45:06.040 perhaps,

00:45:06.420 is that we should

00:45:07.060 pay them a lot

00:45:07.980 more and then

00:45:09.200 we would attract

00:45:09.820 higher calibre

00:45:10.420 people.

00:45:10.880 I don't think

00:45:11.340 it's to pay

00:45:11.780 for people a lot.

00:45:12.500 I think it's a lot

00:45:12.900 for people now.

00:45:14.000 You pay people

00:45:14.600 a million pounds

00:45:15.180 a year,

00:45:15.460 you're going

00:45:15.700 to get a trust.

00:45:16.620 I don't want

00:45:17.300 people motivated

00:45:18.020 by a million pounds

00:45:18.700 a year.

00:45:18.980 I'd like people

00:45:19.340 motivated by doing

00:45:20.540 something.

00:45:21.160 Because I don't

00:45:21.620 think money

00:45:22.060 is everyone's

00:45:22.680 motivation.

00:45:23.920 And I don't

00:45:24.520 think it should

00:45:24.960 be everyone's

00:45:25.480 motivation.

00:45:26.140 But people who

00:45:26.620 could make a million

00:45:27.780 pounds running a

00:45:28.860 business.

00:45:29.320 But a lot of

00:45:29.660 these people have.

00:45:30.320 There are loads

00:45:30.680 of MPs on both

00:45:31.580 sides who've

00:45:31.980 actually made a

00:45:32.420 load of money.

00:45:32.840 Now they want

00:45:33.180 to go into

00:45:33.440 politics.

00:45:33.980 But then people

00:45:34.500 slag off someone

00:45:35.260 like Rishi Sunak.

00:45:36.180 Oh, isn't it

00:45:36.780 awful?

00:45:37.060 You're so rich.

00:45:38.360 I haven't got an

00:45:39.120 issue with someone

00:45:39.600 being rich wanting

00:45:40.260 to go into

00:45:40.580 politics.

00:45:41.580 That's a harder

00:45:42.260 life.

00:45:42.720 I think it's the

00:45:43.260 life.

00:45:43.540 I think it's the

00:45:44.080 judgment.

00:45:44.460 But we need to be

00:45:45.340 holding them to

00:45:45.960 account for the

00:45:46.880 right stuff and not

00:45:48.340 the stuff that

00:45:48.800 doesn't matter.

00:45:50.080 On that, actually,

00:45:51.480 what I know my

00:45:52.240 train of thought

00:45:52.700 has come back to

00:45:53.360 me.

00:45:53.980 I've seen some

00:45:55.020 interesting moves

00:45:56.320 from the Labour

00:45:56.900 government in

00:45:59.040 terms of West

00:45:59.760 Streeting and

00:46:00.560 puberty blockers.

00:46:02.340 In terms of

00:46:03.480 Keir Starmer

00:46:04.020 saying we're not

00:46:04.580 going to be

00:46:04.880 climate extremists,

00:46:06.100 although I think

00:46:06.600 they probably are.

00:46:07.920 But there is a

00:46:10.240 they're attacking

00:46:11.420 the Tories for

00:46:12.260 immigration.

00:46:13.340 It sort of feels

00:46:14.540 to me like he's

00:46:16.800 trying to reposition

00:46:17.980 his party as a

00:46:18.940 more centrist.

00:46:19.920 You're shaking

00:46:20.480 your head.

00:46:20.780 I think this is

00:46:21.300 all absolute

00:46:21.900 bollocks.

00:46:22.540 I think that Keir

00:46:23.240 Starmer doesn't

00:46:23.980 believe anything

00:46:24.480 that he says.

00:46:25.900 I don't see how

00:46:27.060 you can be, you

00:46:28.160 know, you can't be

00:46:28.880 a man who claims

00:46:30.500 that 99.9% of

00:46:33.040 women don't have 1.00

00:46:33.800 a penis, but 1.00

00:46:34.480 1% of women do. 1.00

00:46:36.060 It means roughly

00:46:36.680 30% of women in 0.99

00:46:37.780 this country.

00:46:38.340 I do this at

00:46:39.240 least once a

00:46:39.680 week on my

00:46:40.020 show to

00:46:40.240 take a look.

00:46:40.700 Nope, still

00:46:41.080 haven't grown

00:46:41.420 one.

00:46:41.780 Can't be me.

00:46:42.640 Can anyone

00:46:43.080 else please

00:46:43.580 make a check

00:46:44.120 so we can

00:46:44.440 find these

00:46:44.860 women? 1.00

00:46:46.480 This is a 0.52

00:46:47.760 man who a

00:46:48.300 few years ago

00:46:48.880 voted against

00:46:49.580 the third

00:46:50.000 runaway at

00:46:50.460 Heathrow, which

00:46:50.860 by the way,

00:46:51.580 has been a

00:46:51.980 political topic

00:46:52.560 not since the

00:46:53.220 day I started

00:46:53.960 as a political

00:46:54.460 journalist, I

00:46:55.420 hate to tell you,

00:46:55.760 30 years ago.

00:46:57.100 It's been a

00:46:57.500 political topic

00:46:58.640 literally since

00:46:59.480 before I was

00:47:00.140 born, for God's

00:47:01.140 sake.

00:47:01.660 He voted

00:47:02.100 against it on

00:47:02.560 the basis that

00:47:03.220 the biggest

00:47:05.060 issue facing

00:47:07.160 Britain was 0.97

00:47:08.060 climate change.

00:47:09.180 This man's an 1.00

00:47:09.700 idiot. 1.00

00:47:09.940 Well, he's 1.00

00:47:10.380 either an 1.00

00:47:10.700 idiot or he's 1.00

00:47:11.380 a liar. 1.00

00:47:11.880 I don't know 0.98

00:47:12.240 which.

00:47:12.400 I don't think 0.99

00:47:13.440 he's an idiot. 1.00

00:47:14.040 Well, then we 1.00

00:47:14.800 know what he

00:47:15.240 is.

00:47:16.900 He doesn't

00:47:17.720 think that

00:47:18.980 immigration is

00:47:19.820 too high.

00:47:20.780 He doesn't

00:47:21.860 think there's an

00:47:22.320 issue with 0.84

00:47:22.840 male rapists

00:47:24.140 being put into 0.99

00:47:24.820 women's prison 0.89

00:47:25.580 cells.

00:47:26.160 We know he let

00:47:26.720 the Labour Party

00:47:27.320 in Scotland vote

00:47:28.200 for that with the

00:47:28.960 SNP.

00:47:29.960 There are men in

00:47:30.640 prison right now

00:47:31.680 in women's prison 1.00

00:47:32.480 cells, right now

00:47:33.600 today in England.

00:47:34.900 That's still

00:47:35.300 happening on his

00:47:35.920 watch.

00:47:36.140 We are in

00:47:38.880 this mad

00:47:39.420 situation where

00:47:40.000 anyone who

00:47:40.380 puts Ed

00:47:40.820 Miliband in as

00:47:41.860 your, and I

00:47:42.580 hate this job

00:47:43.000 title, his

00:47:43.300 job title is

00:47:44.320 Energy Security

00:47:45.540 and Net Zero

00:47:46.340 Secretary.

00:47:46.900 As I've said to

00:47:47.480 every one of the

00:47:48.060 people in that

00:47:48.560 job, Grant

00:47:49.120 Shapps and

00:47:49.540 others, it's

00:47:50.240 energy security

00:47:51.080 or net zero.

00:47:52.480 Pick one.

00:47:53.240 You can't have

00:47:53.880 both.

00:47:54.160 They are mutually

00:47:54.640 exclusive.

00:47:55.460 We've got a

00:47:55.860 prime minister and

00:47:56.540 a chancellor

00:47:57.380 obsessed with

00:47:58.120 growth.

00:47:58.900 I mean, we're

00:47:59.420 not going to

00:47:59.800 see growth,

00:48:00.660 certainly not

00:48:01.020 under these

00:48:01.440 guys.

00:48:01.780 We weren't

00:48:02.360 seeing much

00:48:02.780 under the

00:48:03.080 Tories.

00:48:03.500 You're not

00:48:03.900 going to have

00:48:04.200 growth while

00:48:04.580 you've still

00:48:04.820 got net zero.

00:48:05.560 You have to

00:48:06.080 pick one.

00:48:06.900 Those are

00:48:07.520 mutually exclusive.

00:48:09.000 You're not

00:48:09.200 going to have

00:48:09.480 an AI

00:48:09.840 revolution here

00:48:10.640 when you've

00:48:11.260 got net zero

00:48:11.880 because of the

00:48:12.360 cost of

00:48:12.640 electricity to

00:48:13.260 generate.

00:48:14.040 You need to

00:48:14.380 be generated

00:48:14.900 for it.

00:48:15.560 All of these

00:48:16.160 things are

00:48:17.460 completely mutually

00:48:18.060 exclusive.

00:48:18.940 Again, they're

00:48:19.520 either too 1.00

00:48:19.940 stupid to 1.00

00:48:20.580 realise that. 1.00

00:48:22.140 That's

00:48:22.480 worrying for

00:48:23.640 people who've

00:48:24.120 got great

00:48:24.560 degrees, great

00:48:25.180 universities,

00:48:25.720 they've been

00:48:25.920 very successful

00:48:26.620 or they don't

00:48:30.120 care that they're

00:48:30.780 lying to us.

00:48:32.180 There's a third

00:48:33.900 option.

00:48:34.240 What's the

00:48:34.580 third one?

00:48:35.360 They're

00:48:35.540 ideological.

00:48:36.460 They're

00:48:36.620 staunchly

00:48:37.120 ideological.

00:48:38.060 It's a

00:48:38.280 religion.

00:48:39.020 Which means

00:48:39.780 that you can

00:48:40.220 hold two

00:48:40.760 constructions.

00:48:41.060 But that's

00:48:41.860 also irrational.

00:48:42.840 On all three

00:48:43.580 grounds, I

00:48:44.340 would say,

00:48:45.080 should not be

00:48:45.760 in public

00:48:46.220 office.

00:48:46.640 That I

00:48:47.060 agree with.

00:48:47.680 That said,

00:48:48.240 is that any

00:48:48.820 worse than

00:48:49.360 the Tories

00:48:49.900 talking a good

00:48:50.900 game?

00:48:51.460 Oh, we need

00:48:51.820 to get

00:48:52.000 immigration

00:48:52.420 down.

00:48:52.860 Oh, this

00:48:53.400 trans ideology,

00:48:54.300 oh, this

00:48:54.520 is always

00:48:54.780 terrible.

00:48:55.260 And then doing

00:48:55.760 nothing about

00:48:56.840 it.

00:48:57.000 And I mean

00:48:57.620 nothing about

00:48:58.940 it.

00:48:59.340 And they're

00:48:59.660 the ones I

00:49:00.160 hold

00:49:00.460 responsible on

00:49:01.120 net zero.

00:49:01.760 I mean, why

00:49:02.380 we've got an

00:49:02.820 entire policy to

00:49:03.820 completely ruin

00:49:04.560 our economy

00:49:05.120 because Boris

00:49:06.520 Johnson wanted

00:49:07.120 to get a 1.00

00:49:07.480 blowjob from 1.00

00:49:08.120 his then 1.00

00:49:08.860 girlfriend at

00:49:09.520 the time.

00:49:10.120 I mean, that's

00:49:10.600 basically why we've

00:49:12.680 had a lot of

00:49:13.100 this madness.

00:49:13.760 I mean, it's

00:49:14.100 really that.

00:49:14.520 When you put it

00:49:15.020 like that, it

00:49:15.540 doesn't sound

00:49:16.360 unreasonable.

00:49:16.860 Boris Johnson

00:49:17.600 wasn't a

00:49:19.080 green zealot

00:49:19.760 before he was

00:49:20.220 with Carrie.

00:49:20.900 I mean, no,

00:49:21.300 feds Carrie, 0.90

00:49:22.060 but no.

00:49:23.060 Boris Johnson

00:49:23.800 doesn't believe in

00:49:24.520 anything.

00:49:25.000 He never has.

00:49:25.840 Boris Johnson

00:49:26.240 is like Donald

00:49:27.040 Trump.

00:49:27.300 He believes in

00:49:27.900 himself.

00:49:28.280 Not to make

00:49:28.780 it crass, but 1.00

00:49:29.340 her blowjob 0.99

00:49:29.880 technique must 1.00

00:49:30.420 be incredible.

00:49:31.880 It's worth

00:49:32.740 ruining an

00:49:33.200 entire economy.

00:49:33.700 I don't think

00:49:34.360 it's worth

00:49:34.700 de-industrialising

00:49:35.480 Britain for,

00:49:36.300 in fairness.

00:49:36.860 Why do you

00:49:37.420 haven't experienced

00:49:38.000 that?

00:49:38.980 Sorry,

00:49:39.600 Harry.

00:49:40.700 Sorry,

00:49:41.400 Harry.

00:49:42.000 But that's

00:49:42.840 where we are.

00:49:44.000 Policy made up

00:49:44.920 on the hoof,

00:49:45.640 not evidence-based.

00:49:47.260 Again, ideologically

00:49:48.520 driven by wanting

00:49:49.480 to, I go on

00:49:50.460 about this,

00:49:50.940 but I'm telling

00:49:51.460 you, wanting

00:49:52.300 to be seen as

00:49:53.000 the right kind

00:49:53.560 of person at

00:49:54.200 the North London

00:49:54.820 dinner party circuit.

00:49:55.920 It's so true. 0.84

00:49:57.300 There's so much

00:49:58.100 of that going

00:49:58.580 on.

00:49:59.240 And I can't

00:50:00.280 reconcile this

00:50:01.100 with the fact

00:50:02.220 that what I said

00:50:03.140 to you earlier,

00:50:03.600 which is when I

00:50:04.040 meet politicians

00:50:04.800 and I hear,

00:50:06.380 or maybe it was

00:50:07.300 in a previous

00:50:07.880 interview,

00:50:08.240 I talked about

00:50:09.100 the fact that

00:50:09.500 when you meet

00:50:09.860 politicians and

00:50:10.460 you really sit

00:50:10.920 down and hear

00:50:11.440 the reason they

00:50:12.320 got into politics.

00:50:12.980 They seem like

00:50:13.360 nice people.

00:50:14.180 They're well

00:50:14.420 intentioned and

00:50:15.160 they really want

00:50:15.640 to help and

00:50:16.100 they really want

00:50:16.520 to make things

00:50:16.960 better.

00:50:17.860 But at the

00:50:18.520 same time,

00:50:19.220 I can't reconcile

00:50:20.300 that with this. 1.00

00:50:22.800 It's so pathetic. 0.98

00:50:24.260 My view is always, 0.99

00:50:24.960 it's like with

00:50:25.780 Ed Miliband.

00:50:26.520 He's got a PPE

00:50:27.260 degree from Oxford,

00:50:28.020 same as me.

00:50:28.420 He's got no more

00:50:29.000 qualifications than

00:50:29.700 I have in the

00:50:30.680 field of,

00:50:31.680 you know,

00:50:32.160 I mean,

00:50:32.640 astrophysics,

00:50:34.300 biology,

00:50:35.040 chemistry,

00:50:35.780 whatever it is,

00:50:36.520 you know,

00:50:36.840 you need to know

00:50:37.460 to understand

00:50:38.060 climate change.

00:50:39.260 He has no more

00:50:39.860 qualifications than

00:50:40.480 me,

00:50:40.620 neither do his

00:50:41.060 advisors,

00:50:41.760 interestingly.

00:50:42.560 But apparently

00:50:43.020 he thinks,

00:50:44.020 you know,

00:50:44.320 that 2 plus 2

00:50:45.460 equals 7,024.

00:50:47.480 I mean,

00:50:47.760 he's mad. 1.00

00:50:48.580 He's crazy. 0.99

00:50:49.180 It's not possible 0.99

00:50:49.900 to look at any

00:50:50.380 of these numbers

00:50:50.820 and to think

00:50:51.280 that his policies

00:50:52.000 make sense.

00:50:52.680 The only thing

00:50:54.420 that we've seen

00:50:54.840 changed in the

00:50:56.060 ludicrous net zero

00:50:56.980 policies,

00:50:57.520 other than the

00:50:57.860 fact that every

00:50:58.800 single year we're

00:50:59.460 going to have a

00:50:59.720 pushing back of

00:51:00.400 things like when

00:51:01.180 you have to have

00:51:01.800 a,

00:51:02.300 when the gas

00:51:03.060 boiler ban does

00:51:03.860 or does not

00:51:04.340 come in or when

00:51:05.000 you have to have

00:51:05.600 these heat pumps

00:51:07.380 that,

00:51:07.840 by the way,

00:51:08.080 don't work in 0.82

00:51:08.960 housing like we've

00:51:10.580 got in the UK

00:51:11.320 put in or EV

00:51:13.280 mandates.

00:51:13.960 Everything's going

00:51:14.460 to be pushed

00:51:14.780 back because it's

00:51:15.320 all unachievable

00:51:16.060 and undesirable.

00:51:17.400 But they've

00:51:18.360 managed to change

00:51:19.060 this policy of

00:51:20.400 carbon-free

00:51:21.560 electricity by

00:51:22.920 2030,

00:51:24.180 100% carbon-free.

00:51:25.980 Mad.

00:51:26.700 I mean, 0.61

00:51:26.980 insane,

00:51:28.100 unachievable,

00:51:28.980 impossible,

00:51:29.800 even if it was,

00:51:30.640 it'd be too

00:51:30.960 expensive.

00:51:31.820 Insane.

00:51:32.460 But they've now

00:51:33.020 taken it down to

00:51:33.620 95%.

00:51:34.660 Equally insane,

00:51:36.660 unachievable,

00:51:37.400 impossible.

00:51:38.000 But that's where

00:51:39.320 we're going and

00:51:39.780 we're going to be

00:51:40.140 seeing that.

00:51:40.740 It's a lie.

00:51:42.000 They must on

00:51:43.120 some level know

00:51:44.680 it's a lie,

00:51:45.980 but they pursue it

00:51:46.960 anyway.

00:51:47.280 And I think

00:51:47.560 you're right.

00:51:47.920 I think it's

00:51:48.260 kind of a

00:51:48.660 religious

00:51:49.040 zealotry.

00:51:50.480 It's Greta

00:51:51.180 Thunberg is our

00:51:52.340 Joan of Arc

00:51:53.260 sainthood.

00:51:55.100 But we can't

00:51:56.360 continue to be

00:51:57.040 ruled by this.

00:51:58.080 And now people

00:51:59.220 are more and more

00:51:59.780 aware.

00:52:00.320 A few weeks ago

00:52:01.180 we almost had

00:52:01.600 blackouts because

00:52:02.640 the wind wasn't

00:52:03.220 blowing and the

00:52:03.820 sun wasn't

00:52:04.260 shining and we

00:52:05.160 had to pay

00:52:05.580 £2 million an

00:52:06.460 hour for a gas

00:52:07.220 storage station

00:52:08.040 to be put on

00:52:08.700 to make sure

00:52:09.520 that we had

00:52:10.040 enough.

00:52:11.120 We are importing 0.87

00:52:12.460 gas from abroad

00:52:14.420 to our country

00:52:16.740 so we don't

00:52:17.560 use our own

00:52:18.180 gas because

00:52:18.800 our wind

00:52:19.480 generator is

00:52:20.440 enough or

00:52:21.140 they have too

00:52:21.720 much we can't

00:52:22.280 store it or

00:52:22.720 our solar power

00:52:23.360 isn't enough to

00:52:24.160 keep our lights

00:52:24.860 on.

00:52:25.420 And at the

00:52:25.680 same time we've

00:52:26.560 got submarines

00:52:27.720 from the Russian

00:52:29.460 Navy patrolling

00:52:30.820 our seas to check

00:52:32.640 where our cables

00:52:33.500 are, electricity

00:52:34.300 and otherwise,

00:52:34.900 so they can cut

00:52:35.760 them in a time

00:52:36.680 of war.

00:52:37.620 But yeah,

00:52:38.260 in no way is

00:52:39.020 this a national

00:52:39.640 security risk.

00:52:40.920 We're one of the

00:52:41.760 world's biggest

00:52:42.280 economies in the

00:52:43.040 21st century.

00:52:44.000 We are literally

00:52:45.280 switching off our

00:52:46.600 ability to create

00:52:47.980 our own electricity

00:52:48.820 and other energy.

00:52:49.960 We have terminated

00:52:50.840 our ability to make

00:52:51.860 virgin steel.

00:52:53.100 That might be useful

00:52:54.180 in a time of war.

00:52:55.260 Do you think?

00:52:56.100 Well, there won't

00:52:56.520 be a war.

00:52:57.200 Sorry, have you

00:52:57.540 seen Ukraine?

00:52:58.400 Have you seen

00:52:58.700 what's happened in

00:52:59.160 the Middle East?

00:52:59.860 Has anyone heard

00:53:00.480 what Xi Jinping's

00:53:01.280 aims are with

00:53:01.860 Taiwan?

00:53:02.520 We are literally,

00:53:03.880 I mean, we're not

00:53:04.700 cutting off our nose

00:53:05.820 to spite our face.

00:53:06.760 We are literally

00:53:07.400 flailing our entire

00:53:09.780 bodies to spite our

00:53:11.960 face.

00:53:12.300 You know, when

00:53:13.580 you were talking

00:53:14.940 about this and

00:53:15.440 you were breaking

00:53:15.980 it down, what it

00:53:17.920 seems to me is

00:53:19.020 that politicians

00:53:20.880 have infantilised

00:53:22.600 all of us.

00:53:24.460 They're not telling

00:53:25.220 us the truth.

00:53:26.060 Yes.

00:53:26.400 They're talking to

00:53:27.120 us like children.

00:53:28.500 And we're living

00:53:29.240 in this very nice

00:53:30.440 fantasy world where

00:53:32.520 Green jobs. 0.88

00:53:33.460 Yeah, green jobs

00:53:34.400 where we are going

00:53:35.660 to be able to save

00:53:37.480 the planet.

00:53:38.220 Lead the world.

00:53:38.880 And lead the world.

00:53:40.020 And sorry to say

00:53:42.420 it like this, but it

00:53:43.380 just ain't going to 0.97

00:53:43.960 fucking happen. 0.96

00:53:44.800 No. 0.99

00:53:45.400 And we're in a

00:53:46.420 fantasy land at the

00:53:47.260 moment.

00:53:48.460 We're going to

00:53:49.060 impoverish ourselves.

00:53:50.660 And we're trying to

00:53:51.260 impoverish the third

00:53:52.140 world as well.

00:53:52.900 That's what's even

00:53:53.460 more immoral.

00:53:54.480 Not only making it

00:53:56.260 harder for people.

00:53:57.220 OK, if you're well

00:53:58.260 off, OK, your

00:53:58.840 eating bill goes up.

00:54:00.300 But you can still

00:54:00.900 afford it.

00:54:01.580 Oh, you have to have

00:54:02.100 one less ski holiday.

00:54:02.980 Oh, well, I'm so

00:54:03.720 sorry.

00:54:04.280 If you're genuinely

00:54:05.020 worried about putting

00:54:05.840 the third bar on your

00:54:06.760 gas heater on, you

00:54:08.180 know, that is the

00:54:09.680 difference between

00:54:09.960 living and dying for

00:54:10.960 someone elderly, OK?

00:54:11.940 Or someone disabled. 0.75

00:54:13.040 That is that serious.

00:54:14.180 Cold kills.

00:54:14.740 Heat doesn't kill

00:54:15.300 anything.

00:54:16.040 Nine times more people

00:54:17.200 die from cold than

00:54:17.940 die from heat.

00:54:18.460 It's immoral to make

00:54:19.660 energy that expensive.

00:54:21.000 What's even more

00:54:21.900 immoral is to tell the

00:54:23.760 people in the

00:54:24.400 developing world, you

00:54:25.880 must not have the

00:54:27.180 benefits of fossil fuel

00:54:28.520 and industrialisation

00:54:29.800 and modern electricity

00:54:32.200 and cooking facilities

00:54:33.800 and refrigeration.

00:54:34.840 And then you must not

00:54:36.200 have this because

00:54:36.880 saving the planet.

00:54:39.020 It's so deeply

00:54:40.040 immoral.

00:54:40.700 The most moral thing

00:54:41.660 we can do is say

00:54:42.300 plentiful fossil fuels

00:54:44.020 for everyone.

00:54:45.300 Make energy cheap

00:54:46.020 again.

00:54:46.340 I mean, the example

00:54:47.000 I always use is in

00:54:48.100 1947 at the time of

00:54:49.780 partition, average

00:54:51.180 life expectancy in

00:54:52.160 India was 32.

00:54:53.800 Today it's over 70

00:54:55.020 and the reason is

00:54:55.800 they've got richer

00:54:56.460 and the reason is

00:54:57.280 they've been burning

00:54:57.940 fossil fuels.

00:54:59.000 Now you want to tell

00:54:59.840 them half their 1.00

00:55:00.880 children need to die

00:55:01.600 in infancy again?

00:55:02.400 That's your moral

00:55:03.140 position.

00:55:03.380 And you want to

00:55:03.840 tell Africa, which is 0.96

00:55:04.840 still at that poverty

00:55:05.580 level, that they have

00:55:07.240 to stay there and

00:55:08.620 we'll give you some

00:55:09.220 windmills.

00:55:10.920 I mean, I can't think

00:55:12.900 of anything more

00:55:13.540 immoral.

00:55:14.560 So how do we get

00:55:15.500 out of this, Juliet?

00:55:16.560 Oh God!

00:55:17.860 How are these big

00:55:18.500 questions?

00:55:18.940 Well, yeah, I think

00:55:19.880 it's worth asking.

00:55:21.580 You know, some people

00:55:23.720 I've heard talking

00:55:24.500 about a bounce off the

00:55:25.680 bottom kind of...

00:55:26.620 Do we have to hit

00:55:27.580 rock bottom?

00:55:27.820 We have to hit rock

00:55:28.520 bottom, at which

00:55:29.960 point, you know, it

00:55:31.200 speaks to a lot of

00:55:31.900 conversations we've had

00:55:32.820 with people recently

00:55:33.620 where it just seems

00:55:35.240 to both Francis and

00:55:36.200 I that so many of

00:55:37.880 the problems that our

00:55:39.000 societies now face are

00:55:40.360 about a fundamental

00:55:41.340 unwittingness to face

00:55:42.600 the truth.

00:55:43.200 Yes.

00:55:44.020 And so...

00:55:44.860 But people don't want

00:55:45.840 to.

00:55:46.060 You don't want to hear

00:55:46.920 that there's no...

00:55:48.960 That actually we can't

00:55:50.660 continue to expand our

00:55:52.360 benefits bill.

00:55:53.960 We can't continue to

00:55:55.380 expand our public

00:55:56.240 services necessarily,

00:55:57.720 even though we'd like

00:55:58.480 to.

00:55:59.120 It's just we don't have

00:56:00.100 the money to do that.

00:56:00.960 We could ensure

00:56:02.240 decent health care.

00:56:03.220 Lots of other

00:56:03.660 countries manage it if

00:56:04.520 we didn't expand our

00:56:05.560 benefits bill.

00:56:07.220 I mean, yeah.

00:56:08.540 So, but ultimately we

00:56:10.960 are living beyond that

00:56:11.960 means and have been

00:56:13.220 for a very long time.

00:56:14.600 And we've been printing

00:56:15.400 money to pretend that

00:56:16.720 that's not happening.

00:56:17.400 That's what we've been

00:56:17.820 doing.

00:56:18.300 Yeah.

00:56:18.580 And ultimately at some

00:56:20.620 point we're going to

00:56:21.240 have to face that and

00:56:22.460 take some very, very

00:56:23.680 unpleasant and difficult

00:56:24.660 decisions that are going

00:56:25.560 to be painful for

00:56:26.260 everybody.

00:56:26.640 But I just, it just

00:56:29.460 seems like until there's

00:56:31.360 some kind of catastrophic

00:56:32.560 event, no one is going

00:56:35.820 to be prepared to do that.

00:56:36.360 I'm waiting for the

00:56:37.280 blackouts.

00:56:38.420 Genuinely, I think we are

00:56:39.320 going to head to blackout.

00:56:39.960 They're going to do

00:56:40.300 everything they can to

00:56:40.920 prevent a blackout

00:56:41.740 because they know that

00:56:42.800 that is the point where

00:56:43.480 people go, are you

00:56:45.180 kidding me?

00:56:46.040 We can't keep the 1.00

00:56:46.880 lights on.

00:56:47.540 You know the trauma?

00:56:48.280 I mean, someone in my

00:56:49.560 house who was messaging

00:56:50.680 saying, have you had a

00:56:51.420 problem with your water

00:56:52.120 because our water's been

00:56:52.900 cut off?

00:56:53.180 Oh yeah, Thames Water

00:56:54.240 are just doing some

00:56:54.880 roadworks.

00:56:55.340 Maybe it'll be on by the

00:56:56.060 time I get home, but

00:56:56.940 yeah, what a pain.

00:56:58.460 Yeah, imagine that

00:56:59.460 with your electricity

00:57:00.940 and your gas for days

00:57:02.100 or weeks on end or the

00:57:03.640 whole country they're 0.68

00:57:04.320 happening to you.

00:57:04.820 That is catastrophic.

00:57:06.180 This is catastrophic.

00:57:07.020 So I think it's only a

00:57:08.420 matter of time because

00:57:09.220 if you keep shutting

00:57:09.880 down nuclear power

00:57:10.640 stations and gas power

00:57:11.660 stations, we don't have

00:57:12.480 battery storage and the

00:57:13.300 wind doesn't blow and the

00:57:14.040 sun doesn't shine enough

00:57:14.860 and there's some problem

00:57:16.060 getting gas and

00:57:18.200 electricity from

00:57:19.060 mainland Europe.

00:57:20.280 That is what's going to

00:57:21.180 happen.

00:57:21.440 I think that is what is

00:57:22.340 going to have to happen,

00:57:23.400 reality check.

00:57:24.100 In the same way that

00:57:25.960 every time, you know,

00:57:27.140 on the net zero thing,

00:57:28.380 every time we get close

00:57:29.480 to the mandate, for

00:57:30.740 instance, on the number

00:57:31.320 of electric vehicles

00:57:32.120 being sold, you know,

00:57:33.600 these £15,000 fines

00:57:36.300 for companies for each

00:57:38.560 non-electric vehicle

00:57:40.120 they sell.

00:57:40.940 I mean, it's, again, I

00:57:43.080 keep saying that word

00:57:43.680 insane, but it is.

00:57:45.280 Do you remember, I

00:57:46.060 mean, we're a bit too

00:57:46.980 young for this, but when

00:57:47.980 we got rid of the horse

00:57:48.780 and cart as the main

00:57:49.780 mode of travel and people

00:57:51.020 moved to motor cars, they

00:57:52.540 didn't have to fine the

00:57:54.020 people making the

00:57:56.420 horse cars, they didn't

00:57:57.420 have to bribe people

00:57:58.400 to buy them.

00:57:58.960 They went to the better

00:57:59.900 mode of transport.

00:58:00.800 People will buy electric

00:58:01.720 vehicles when they can

00:58:02.420 afford to charge them

00:58:03.280 and when they are

00:58:03.720 cheaper and blah, blah,

00:58:04.680 blah.

00:58:04.920 That's not going to

00:58:05.680 happen with mandates

00:58:06.640 and things.

00:58:07.300 So each time these

00:58:08.020 things get shuffled a

00:58:08.880 little bit further away,

00:58:09.780 the heat pump, they

00:58:10.500 get shuffled a bit

00:58:11.200 further away.

00:58:12.020 You wouldn't have to

00:58:12.680 have a mandate on heat

00:58:13.540 pumps if everyone knew

00:58:14.540 heat pumps were working

00:58:15.740 and they gave you

00:58:16.940 cheaper heating and

00:58:18.660 actual heating.

00:58:19.860 You wouldn't have to

00:58:20.480 do any of this.

00:58:20.900 So the reality of the

00:58:22.900 mandates is always the

00:58:23.820 giveaway.

00:58:24.500 That's where you know.

00:58:25.360 I think we're going to

00:58:25.940 have to have the

00:58:26.360 blackouts.

00:58:27.040 I think we've hit, I

00:58:28.980 like to think, God, I

00:58:30.240 hope we've hit rock

00:58:30.920 bottom.

00:58:31.220 No, we haven't.

00:58:32.020 We have not.

00:58:32.920 On the woke agenda.

00:58:34.060 That's another thing.

00:58:35.220 When you watched a man, 0.72

00:58:37.280 not a trans man, but a

00:58:38.600 man who's quite clearly

00:58:39.680 physically born,

00:58:41.100 biologically,

00:58:41.960 chromosomally, a man,

00:58:44.000 smashing his fist into a 0.61

00:58:46.380 woman boxer's face and it 1.00

00:58:48.300 was on prime time

00:58:49.440 television for billions of

00:58:50.760 people to watch and the

00:58:52.160 great and the good were

00:58:53.040 saying, well, that's

00:58:54.800 equality for you.

00:58:56.000 And the rest of us are

00:58:56.900 going, what the actual

00:58:58.460 was that?

00:59:00.320 There are moments when

00:59:01.860 the reality, oh, well,

00:59:03.100 it's just a weight lift

00:59:03.980 doesn't make a difference

00:59:04.960 or it's a tennis player.

00:59:05.940 No, that, that was real

00:59:08.320 to women.

00:59:08.940 That was real.

00:59:10.340 I think when we saw that

00:59:11.760 point with Nicola Sturgeon,

00:59:12.860 it was part of her

00:59:13.380 downfall, although not the

00:59:14.400 only reason, when we had

00:59:15.720 in Scotland that moment

00:59:16.880 where it was wonderful.

00:59:18.560 Finally, the BBC asked a

00:59:19.680 question about trans.

00:59:20.480 I mean, literally, the

00:59:21.400 one BBC journalist who

00:59:22.960 bothered to ask, you know,

00:59:24.920 was a trans woman who was

00:59:27.100 basically, who is, let's

00:59:28.260 face it, a man who is a 0.98

00:59:30.980 double convicted rapist, 0.91

00:59:32.580 should they be in a 0.95

00:59:33.320 women's prison with women 1.00

00:59:34.780 often victims of rape

00:59:36.380 themselves?

00:59:37.480 The fact that she talked

00:59:39.100 utter, mindless, 0.99

00:59:41.060 gobbledygook and nonsense, 0.98

00:59:43.440 it was, I mean, it was just 0.96

00:59:44.140 nonsense that she spoke,

00:59:45.220 just totally exposed the

00:59:47.280 madness.

00:59:47.860 All the people have been

00:59:48.620 going, I don't know what

00:59:49.620 your problem is, what

00:59:50.400 difference does it make?

00:59:51.100 These trans people aren't 1.00

00:59:51.820 doing anything to you.

00:59:53.100 No, no, but when a, when a

00:59:54.800 man who was convicted two

00:59:56.160 rapes and is convicted of

00:59:57.280 them puts on a wig and,

00:59:59.180 and, and pink leggings 0.93

01:00:00.240 over his large dangly bits, 0.80

01:00:01.980 doesn't even pretend to 1.00

01:00:02.880 hide anything, fake boobs, 0.98

01:00:04.500 and then says, I'd like to 1.00

01:00:05.260 be in a women's prison, 1.00

01:00:05.940 and the authorities say,

01:00:07.120 well, yes, of course you

01:00:08.200 should be in a women's 1.00

01:00:09.000 prison, Isla Bryson.

01:00:10.920 And then, I mean, and

01:00:12.540 that actually, that was,

01:00:13.520 that was happening.

01:00:14.120 That was, that was what's

01:00:15.200 going to happen.

01:00:15.660 And it's still happening

01:00:16.400 now.

01:00:18.360 That's the moment when

01:00:19.340 people go, whoa, sorry,

01:00:21.780 are you serious?

01:00:23.040 And I think you need to

01:00:23.720 Hold on, if it's still

01:00:24.060 happening now, we clearly

01:00:25.020 haven't got the wrong

01:00:25.500 Most people aren't aware

01:00:26.320 it's still happening now.

01:00:27.360 That's what I'm saying.

01:00:27.940 Yeah.

01:00:28.300 But I think we are at that

01:00:29.540 point where people are

01:00:30.560 saying, no, you have to

01:00:32.580 hit the point of peak

01:00:34.220 madness or the biggest

01:00:35.640 low before people wake up

01:00:38.700 and, and, and, and they

01:00:40.660 can't cover up the

01:00:42.420 double think anymore.

01:00:44.160 You're having that

01:00:44.800 Orwellian moment where it

01:00:46.180 can't, these, these two

01:00:47.920 things can't both be true

01:00:48.940 at the same time.

01:00:49.900 I think I understand where

01:00:51.780 that sense of, I'm trying

01:00:53.440 to be an optimist.

01:00:54.060 That's what I was going to

01:00:54.940 say.

01:00:55.220 That sense of optimism is

01:00:56.460 coming from, and I feel it

01:00:57.720 because I think when you look

01:00:59.220 at what's happened in

01:00:59.820 America, when you look at

01:01:01.560 what's happening in

01:01:02.160 Argentina under Malay, when

01:01:03.800 you look at the freedom to

01:01:05.540 actually express opinions

01:01:06.780 without fear of being

01:01:08.280 canceled or destroyed or

01:01:09.600 next, et cetera, it feels

01:01:11.320 like there's a movement of

01:01:13.080 pushback.

01:01:13.960 The reason I'm skeptical

01:01:15.620 that we've hit rock bottom

01:01:16.740 is I think our country is

01:01:18.720 in a very different place

01:01:19.900 at the moment to those

01:01:21.800 other things.

01:01:22.540 So to, to the extent that

01:01:24.000 all of us now live more on

01:01:25.620 the internet than we do in

01:01:26.740 our country, which kind of

01:01:28.220 is true for a lot of us.

01:01:29.400 I think that I understand

01:01:30.760 the sense of optimism, but

01:01:31.720 I think in the UK, I don't

01:01:33.880 think we've remotely hit

01:01:35.000 rock bottom.

01:01:35.660 Okay.

01:01:36.340 I do worry about that

01:01:37.760 because the big hope when

01:01:38.640 certainly on the day one of

01:01:40.260 the Trump presidency, the

01:01:42.820 executive orders, again,

01:01:45.000 this is the mind blown

01:01:45.900 thing.

01:01:46.440 One of his first executive

01:01:47.360 orders was to recognize

01:01:48.560 there were only two

01:01:49.260 genders.

01:01:49.820 I mean, male and female.

01:01:51.320 Yeah.

01:01:51.780 Because by the way, gender

01:01:52.560 and sex used to mean the

01:01:53.440 same thing.

01:01:54.140 Yes.

01:01:54.420 And they, in my head, they

01:01:55.360 do still mean the same

01:01:56.140 thing.

01:01:56.840 Call yourself Sheila.

01:01:57.840 I do not care.

01:01:58.640 I'm not interested in what

01:01:59.440 you wear.

01:01:59.900 I don't care.

01:02:00.560 But you're a man or you're

01:02:01.300 a woman and there are sex 0.99

01:02:02.300 based rights based on these,

01:02:03.660 on the biology, not what you

01:02:04.840 think on a Wednesday

01:02:05.580 afternoon, end off nothing to

01:02:07.020 discuss, whether it's sport,

01:02:08.220 prison, jobs, whatever it is,

01:02:10.560 you know, enough.

01:02:11.660 The fact that we needed an

01:02:12.880 American president to sign an

01:02:14.160 executive order to establish

01:02:15.420 biological fact as law, I think

01:02:19.620 is really quite scary.

01:02:21.360 My hope is that we are, we've always

01:02:24.400 been downstream from American

01:02:26.000 madness or the wokery, the Black 1.00

01:02:28.800 Lives Matter, the trans ideology,

01:02:31.840 frankly, an awful lot of the

01:02:33.240 anti-Semitism, let's call it what

01:02:35.980 it is, not anti-Israel, it's

01:02:36.900 anti-Semitism that is happening on

01:02:38.840 campuses and like a lot and a lot

01:02:41.440 of that, we're downstream from

01:02:42.740 that.

01:02:43.320 So my hope is it does flow.

01:02:45.000 But yeah, maybe America is hit

01:02:46.820 peak sooner.

01:02:47.760 And again, their political system

01:02:50.180 enables that sort of work to

01:02:52.360 change.

01:02:52.760 Whereas we would need, you know,

01:02:54.880 Keir Starmer, well, I mean, he

01:02:56.980 ain't going to do it anyway.

01:02:57.980 But even if we had Nigel Farrell,

01:03:00.020 she's prime minister, and we know 0.87

01:03:01.360 he's stood firm on a lot of these

01:03:02.500 issues over the years.

01:03:03.860 Again, you're going to have to take

01:03:04.820 on the civil service, you're going

01:03:05.780 to have to take on the NHS, you're

01:03:07.040 going to have to take on the

01:03:07.620 military, you're going to have to

01:03:08.500 take on every single school.

01:03:10.640 I mean, this stuff is, it's in

01:03:12.700 every corporate PR.

01:03:14.500 I mean, God, it's in my building,

01:03:15.540 for goodness sake, this stuff is

01:03:17.040 imbued throughout the nation now.

01:03:20.340 And how do you remove that?

01:03:23.320 How do you remove that?

01:03:24.180 That is going to take years, if

01:03:26.820 not decades.

01:03:27.720 I think you have to quite literally

01:03:29.080 outlaw it.

01:03:30.280 I think, no, because to the extent

01:03:32.060 that in HR departments, this is

01:03:34.140 now, there are lots of companies

01:03:35.420 that, you know, for instance, you

01:03:36.260 have to have these DEI policies,

01:03:38.300 you have to actually sign up to,

01:03:40.560 you know, loads of stuff, which

01:03:42.440 people do not, most average person

01:03:44.500 does not believe in.

01:03:46.120 And the non-merit-based sort of

01:03:47.740 policies and things to even get a

01:03:49.580 contract with government or with

01:03:51.600 another big company, the ones that

01:03:53.000 have the rainbow lanyards and go on

01:03:54.980 and on about this stuff in all of

01:03:56.700 their Western adverts.

01:03:58.480 But strangely, it never happens in

01:04:00.460 their adverts or their social media

01:04:01.800 accounts in the Middle East or in

01:04:03.500 China.

01:04:04.040 Very strange.

01:04:04.620 I can never work out why it

01:04:06.840 doesn't, the rainbow never appears

01:04:08.320 there, but it never does.

01:04:10.020 So, I mean, you'd, I think you'd

01:04:11.260 actually have to outlaw it.

01:04:12.680 And I think it would be easy to do

01:04:13.860 so.

01:04:14.260 I think separating people by race

01:04:16.360 or by the sexuality or by, or by

01:04:19.400 the, you know, the gender and, and

01:04:21.040 having a non-merit-based hiring

01:04:22.840 policy or whatever is clearly,

01:04:24.900 clearly against the Equality Act.

01:04:28.140 Clearly.

01:04:28.540 Look, I, my issue is, Julia, with all

01:04:32.880 of this stuff, I agree with you a

01:04:34.220 hundred percent, but you know what?

01:04:37.060 I, there's a lot of people who still

01:04:38.960 believe in this stuff.

01:04:39.840 I know.

01:04:40.280 And what's terrible...

01:04:41.100 And they make a living from it and

01:04:42.280 it's their interest to keep it going.

01:04:44.140 You look at what's happened in

01:04:45.320 Scotland with bringing in the hate 0.91

01:04:46.700 speech bill.

01:04:47.680 Criminalised public performance on

01:04:49.060 stage.

01:04:49.440 People can now, at the home of the

01:04:51.440 Edinburgh Festival, people can now get

01:04:53.520 arrested for telling a joke.

01:04:54.800 I would rather they were being

01:04:56.320 arrested and it was all public than

01:04:58.200 they were being quietly cancelled

01:04:59.620 without any action.

01:05:01.280 And you go, well, you know, those are

01:05:02.820 just, we always talk, well, there are

01:05:04.160 consequences.

01:05:05.180 Well, that's your consequence.

01:05:06.100 You get taken off stage.

01:05:07.300 Let's make it more obvious.

01:05:08.740 Let's take it.

01:05:09.680 Okay.

01:05:10.000 Let's take it to the limit.

01:05:11.180 Arrest people.

01:05:12.140 But you know what?

01:05:13.260 You know, go, go before a jury and

01:05:15.220 see what the jury thinks.

01:05:16.500 And also there's a shadow of blasphemy

01:05:19.160 laws.

01:05:19.740 Oh.

01:05:20.120 Which are being openly discussed.

01:05:21.760 And my worry is not even that these

01:05:24.580 things are being implemented.

01:05:26.120 My worry is that the people that I

01:05:27.940 talk to, a lot of people, particularly

01:05:29.400 in that echelon of society, don't see

01:05:31.640 it as a problem.

01:05:32.480 And that's when I get the panic bells

01:05:34.540 and I'm like, well, this is...

01:05:36.040 By the way, not only do they not see

01:05:37.140 it as a problem, they think you are a

01:05:38.920 problem for seeing it as a problem.

01:05:40.860 Yeah.

01:05:41.340 By the way, we already have a blasphemy 0.76

01:05:42.900 law.

01:05:44.220 We already have a blasphemy law. 0.99

01:05:46.020 Because, you know, that grammar school

01:05:47.540 teacher in Batley, he's living under

01:05:49.360 that law because he and his family have

01:05:51.120 been hiding out, hiding for four years

01:05:54.720 for fear of their life.

01:05:56.240 You know, the reality is there's lots

01:05:58.400 of things that we will say about pretty

01:05:59.700 much any religion apart from Islam or 0.98

01:06:02.000 go up against, you know, showing a

01:06:03.820 picture of the, you know, cartoon of the

01:06:05.960 Prophet Muhammad, you know, with the 1.00

01:06:07.780 Charlie Hebdo cover.

01:06:09.040 You know, you wouldn't do that now.

01:06:11.260 You wouldn't do it because you'd like

01:06:12.300 to stay alive and you'd like your family

01:06:13.900 to stay alive.

01:06:14.560 And you won't.

01:06:15.400 It is a simple matter of fact.

01:06:16.620 You will be in hiding the rest of your

01:06:17.820 life if you do that.

01:06:18.560 We have a blasphemy law. 1.00

01:06:20.400 And the authorities have gone, yeah.

01:06:23.480 Yeah.

01:06:25.680 That's my case.

01:06:27.140 We haven't hit rock bottom.

01:06:28.340 Yeah.

01:06:29.060 Oh, God.

01:06:30.960 Welcome to trigonometry where you get

01:06:33.140 even more depressed than you were coming in.

01:06:35.360 However, I think.

01:06:36.560 Cheating in next week.

01:06:37.780 However, I think your point is actually

01:06:39.640 broadly correct, which is there is a sense

01:06:42.260 now in some parts of the Western world

01:06:44.440 that this isn't forever.

01:06:46.960 Yes.

01:06:47.400 There is the possibility that if you elect

01:06:49.640 the right people or the better, the better

01:06:52.840 people of the two that are available to you,

01:06:55.020 let's say, if they promise to do this,

01:06:57.660 there is the possibility of doing it.

01:06:59.280 And maybe it's going to take some time.

01:07:02.460 I think a lot of it needs to take time

01:07:03.560 because people need to know.

01:07:04.740 I mean, again, people need to know what

01:07:06.480 the trans ideology was doing in terms of

01:07:08.300 damaging women's safety and rights. 0.99

01:07:10.240 You need to know.

01:07:11.400 You need to know that net zero is going

01:07:14.000 to cost jobs and ruin the economy.

01:07:16.140 No one knows that.

01:07:16.580 No one knows that.

01:07:17.160 Exactly.

01:07:17.420 You need to know that.

01:07:18.120 Look, God, I can remember a lot of times

01:07:19.580 when I used to do the breakfast show and talk

01:07:21.560 and I'd have MPs on, Labour MPs in particular,

01:07:23.840 and I would say, OK, just give me a clue.

01:07:25.460 You signed up to this.

01:07:26.540 What percentage, what percentage of,

01:07:29.560 not just right now today, but on an average,

01:07:31.620 what percentage of our electricity do you think

01:07:34.120 comes from renewables in any average year?

01:07:37.360 You know, a percentage of our energy,

01:07:39.060 our energy, and they were like, oh, you know,

01:07:40.820 oh, I don't know.

01:07:41.580 No, no, I'm not going to hold you to the nearest 20%.

01:07:45.400 Can you give me that?

01:07:47.240 Oh, mutter, mutter, mutter.

01:07:48.460 I mean, nearest 50%.

01:07:50.380 Give me that.

01:07:51.060 They wouldn't know.

01:07:51.780 And I'd say, like, it's like sort of four or six percent.

01:07:54.780 And that's of all our energy needs.

01:07:56.240 I mean, even when they talk about electricity,

01:07:57.820 that's only 20% of our energy needs.

01:07:59.580 These people, MPs, who are voting on this stuff,

01:08:02.480 who are campaigning on this stuff,

01:08:04.540 they don't know the most basic facts about energy production

01:08:09.940 and any energy use in this country.

01:08:13.060 Why would we expect the public to do?

01:08:14.780 I mean, I think the role of shows like mine,

01:08:17.620 I write a column for The Sun as well,

01:08:19.200 and podcasts like yours,

01:08:20.700 who've been campaigning just to get the facts out.

01:08:24.200 And I remember doing this through lockdown as well.

01:08:26.380 It was, I felt I was on,

01:08:27.460 it was public service broadcasting.

01:08:29.200 It's the proudest thing I've ever done.

01:08:30.720 Wasn't right about everything.

01:08:31.780 There are things that a lot of people would disagree with me on

01:08:34.000 in different directions on my views on those things.

01:08:36.600 But I just felt like,

01:08:37.340 I just want to try and get the alternative views on.

01:08:39.320 I want to just make sure people have got an outlet,

01:08:41.660 they can hear.

01:08:42.700 I was probably the only journalist on broadcasting

01:08:45.180 who was challenging cabinet ministers week in, week out,

01:08:49.460 actually on some of the policies they were making

01:08:51.620 and demanding, you know, cost-benefit analysis.

01:08:53.780 And they're like, people cannot wake up to something

01:08:56.980 if no one has told them they're asleep.

01:08:58.960 Yes.

01:08:59.260 Yeah.

01:08:59.600 It's so true. 0.84

01:09:00.220 And I totally, I'm so glad you are raising this issue

01:09:03.540 about net zero in the way that you are,

01:09:05.060 because I really see that as it's a set of luxury beliefs

01:09:10.240 that we simply can't afford anymore.

01:09:11.980 It's as simple as that.

01:09:12.720 It's going to cost lives.

01:09:13.720 Yeah.

01:09:14.120 It already is.

01:09:14.660 It's going to cost lives.

01:09:14.980 Well, pensioners freeze every winter 1.00

01:09:16.420 because electricity is too expensive and gas is too expensive.

01:09:18.660 Or how much, yeah, the question becomes,

01:09:20.180 oh, that's where our politics gets it wrong.

01:09:22.240 And it brings us back to the start of the conversation

01:09:23.960 where we talked about, oh, what's the solution

01:09:25.680 to children being stabbed to death in Southport last summer?

01:09:29.240 Oh, oh, changing the rules on what evidence of your adulthood

01:09:33.120 is needed from Amazon when they sell you a knife, right?

01:09:35.680 That's what they think the solution is.

01:09:37.220 And that's when you get to energy prices are too high.

01:09:39.780 Oh, how do we subsidize energy prices?

01:09:41.520 What extra benefits with a winter fuel allowance, whatever?

01:09:44.720 Do we give some pensioners so they can afford to heat their homes 1.00

01:09:46.760 and not die in winter?

01:09:48.720 You're tackling the wrong end of the question.

01:09:50.540 You have completely misidentified the problem

01:09:53.760 and therefore any solution you offer is not actually a solution.

01:09:59.200 And this is a problem, I think, in this case,

01:10:00.900 every aspect of the conversation we've had.

01:10:03.800 Politicians who have completely misunderstood the problem,

01:10:06.980 misidentified the issue,

01:10:08.740 and therefore any efforts they make to tackle it

01:10:11.140 are going to go completely and utterly unnoticed.

01:10:15.360 Well, they're either going to do more harm.

01:10:17.200 They're certainly not going to improve things

01:10:18.480 because they haven't identified the problem.

01:10:20.840 To the extent, go back to immigration. 0.95

01:10:23.300 Boris Johnson identified the issue as being

01:10:25.180 we don't have control of net migration to our country.

01:10:28.400 If we have control, if it's us setting the numbers,

01:10:31.180 then that's the solution.

01:10:32.380 So it was OK for him to raise it to net one million a year.

01:10:35.320 That happened under his watch.

01:10:36.560 Those figures didn't come out later.

01:10:37.780 The visas were issued on his watch.

01:10:39.080 Legal visas for people to arrive in this country 0.99

01:10:41.140 to make new lives for themselves.

01:10:42.740 No issue with those people.

01:10:44.060 No issue with them at all.

01:10:45.220 But that was a deliberate government policy.

01:10:46.920 They weren't illegal migrants.

01:10:47.900 They weren't a shock.

01:10:49.020 They came over legally.

01:10:50.760 His view was, clearly,

01:10:52.760 but we're controlling it.

01:10:55.000 He misidentified the problem.

01:10:57.360 So he couldn't come up with a solution.

01:10:59.000 The problem was too many people coming to this country, 1.00

01:11:02.100 both number-wise and too few skills

01:11:04.580 and too little contribution to this nation

01:11:07.280 and too little assimilation.

01:11:09.460 Misidentified the problem.

01:11:10.840 And I think that's the thing.

01:11:11.780 In every area, whether it's energy,

01:11:13.900 whether it's immigration,

01:11:14.920 whether it's crime,

01:11:17.060 they keep misidentifying the problem.

01:11:19.560 How do so many clever people

01:11:21.520 get so much so wrong?

01:11:24.700 That's what I can't work out.

01:11:26.520 I've never been a conspiracy theorist.

01:11:28.160 I always say with people on my show,

01:11:29.640 it must be a conspiracy,

01:11:31.340 whether it's COVID or anything else.

01:11:33.340 I'm like, no, I've met these people.

01:11:35.360 Honestly, I've met them.

01:11:36.300 I know quite a lot of them quite well.

01:11:37.620 They're not clever enough.

01:11:39.400 They're not clever enough.

01:11:40.680 The moon landings,

01:11:41.740 no-one was clever enough to conspire to do all of that.

01:11:46.080 But I can't understand how they can get it so wrong

01:11:49.520 when, you know, we've not got PhDs in these topics.

01:11:53.200 We can see it.

01:11:54.460 It's in black and white in front of us,

01:11:55.900 what the problem is.

01:11:57.100 So what are they missing?

01:11:59.080 Is it the will?

01:12:01.580 No, but the will would imply

01:12:02.560 you actually had identified the problem

01:12:03.960 and wanted to do it.

01:12:05.300 Some of them have.

01:12:06.480 Some of them have.

01:12:07.080 I remember during the Tory administration

01:12:09.140 talking to Tory ministers

01:12:10.900 who would agree with every word you've just said

01:12:13.540 while implementing policies. 0.66

01:12:15.660 And then shut up about it.

01:12:16.440 Yes. 0.98

01:12:16.820 Oh, yeah.

01:12:17.220 I remember talking to a lot of ministers

01:12:18.520 that we say during lockdown.

01:12:19.780 I knew we had a third of the cabinet behind us.

01:12:22.240 I knew.

01:12:22.640 I knew there were people.

01:12:23.760 None of them said it.

01:12:24.620 Only a few.

01:12:25.600 Weirdly, the person who got the most...

01:12:27.560 Rishi Sunak was the one person in the group of four

01:12:30.100 who were making all the decisions

01:12:31.340 who was actually fighting lockdown, ironically.

01:12:35.300 But this is the thing.

01:12:36.160 I mean, what's the point of being in one of those jobs

01:12:39.060 if you're not going to stand up and be counted

01:12:41.420 when it really matters?

01:12:44.320 Well said.

01:12:44.840 Well, Julia, it's been great having you back.

01:12:46.340 Thank you for coming on.

01:12:47.300 As you know, the last question we always ask

01:12:49.040 is what's the one thing we're not talking about

01:12:50.880 that we shouldn't be?

01:12:51.800 Oh, God, and we've covered so much.

01:12:53.360 We have.

01:12:54.520 We've covered so much.

01:12:56.380 Gosh, I wish I'd thought about this earlier.

01:12:58.300 We should have given you a warning.

01:12:59.620 You should have reminded me.

01:13:01.060 We like to surprise people.

01:13:02.260 What's the one thing we're not...

01:13:02.980 Well, I say I don't think we're talking about net zero enough.

01:13:06.040 I don't think...

01:13:06.580 OK, I don't think we talk about demographics enough

01:13:09.020 and the ageing population

01:13:10.200 and how we need to make it so much easier

01:13:12.720 for so many people to start a family sooner

01:13:16.880 and be able to afford a home

01:13:18.640 and have a family

01:13:19.600 and have the two or three kids that they want

01:13:21.360 and everything that we need to solve in our country

01:13:25.160 in terms of our future economy,

01:13:27.280 paying for the NHS and things like that,

01:13:29.120 actually, and not needing,

01:13:30.460 we're told to import lots of people from abroad

01:13:32.840 and deal with those issues

01:13:33.560 could be solved by actually enabling people

01:13:36.520 not to, like, leave university with a load of debt,

01:13:38.520 not be able to afford a home

01:13:39.520 and not be able to start a family

01:13:41.060 and have the family they want.

01:13:42.760 Our demographics are absolutely drocious. 0.99

01:13:44.980 Not as bad as some other countries,

01:13:46.860 but that is something that we don't talk about enough

01:13:49.500 and that would solve a lot of problems.

01:13:50.920 And you know what?

01:13:51.500 It would contribute to the sum of human happiness.

01:13:54.700 It would do, indeed.

01:13:55.500 And also, when people talk about this woke stuff,

01:13:57.800 I mean, I have a little sympathy for young people. 1.00

01:14:01.040 Why would you be conservative

01:14:02.180 if you've got nothing to conserve?

01:14:04.320 Absolutely.

01:14:05.860 It got depressing again.

01:14:06.820 I'm sorry, guys.

01:14:07.980 We promise that when we go to Substack,

01:14:10.180 it will be uplifting.

01:14:11.400 Our American viewers just tune in

01:14:13.300 for the depression-born.

01:14:14.500 Yeah.

01:14:14.940 All right, head on over to Substack

01:14:16.260 where there'll be uplift...

01:14:18.800 Will there?

01:14:19.540 Probably not.

01:14:20.140 Probably not.

01:14:20.700 Anyway, head on over there now.

01:14:22.000 There'll be more depressing questions and answers.

01:14:23.980 That's why you watch.

01:14:24.840 Yeah, exactly.

01:14:25.800 You love it.

01:14:26.220 We recently reached a huge YouTube milestone

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01:14:31.280 Amid the celebrations, however,

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01:14:35.200 Some people are asking,

01:14:36.780 how do two guys with weird hair

01:14:38.800 and no obvious talent

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01:14:45.520 on the internet?

01:14:46.880 How do they attract massive guests?

01:14:49.120 Some people have even gone as far

01:14:51.320 as to ask,

01:14:52.620 who funds you?

01:14:53.800 And the time has come

01:14:55.420 to confess the truth.

01:14:57.160 For the last six years,

01:14:58.440 we've only been able

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01:15:07.260 You.

01:15:08.300 Many thousands of you.

01:15:09.760 That's why the show

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01:15:42.740 Give me money! 0.57

01:15:44.200 Chalamet,

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01:16:28.240 that we will be able

01:16:28.940 to do more incredible

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01:17:00.080 What frustrates you

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01:17:01.860 political representation

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01:17:03.860 Does Julia think 1.00

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TRIGGERnometry - February 02, 2025

The Authorities Failed Those Girls - Julia Hartley-Brewer

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Summary

Transcript