TRIGGERnometry - The Best Breakdown of America You’ve Never Heard

00:00:00.000 The way to understand America, it was founded as four separate, somewhat coercive, religious utopias

00:00:09.000 that come from different time periods in Britain's past.

00:00:13.420 So the more you understand the past of your country, the more you understand the English War especially,

00:00:19.060 the more you'll understand America.

00:00:21.460 So the ideas of the village these people are from becomes the idea of the village they settle in.

00:00:28.600 Well, hundreds of years later, those ideas have continued through those same social networks, families, and so on.

00:00:35.440 And so that puts America at odds with itself.

00:00:38.680 So the cultural shadow of these events in America is quite long.

00:00:43.320 It's all but forgotten in your country that it's alive here in a cultural sense.

00:00:48.760 We are your past.

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00:01:19.600 Richard, great to have you on the show.

00:01:24.240 Great to be here.

00:01:24.840 Thanks so much for coming on.

00:01:26.380 You are someone who's written for every publication in the world.

00:01:29.600 I've written a bunch of best-selling books.

00:01:31.820 We met by complete accident.

00:01:33.600 And I just happened to go, hey, can you tell us a little bit about the history of America and how that ties in?

00:01:38.440 And you just, like, unloaded on us for about two hours, and I just sat there, we both did, and just took it all in.

00:01:45.080 And we thought it was a fascinating conversation, and we'd love for our audience to hear so many of the things you talked about because it is genuinely fascinating.

00:01:54.520 So the history that you told us starts with the English Civil War.

00:01:58.400 It does, yes.

00:01:59.520 So the way to understand America is it's four, it was founded as four separate, somewhat coercive, religious utopias that come from different time periods in Britain's past.

00:02:13.820 So the more you understand the past of your country, the more you understand the English Civil War especially, the more you'll understand America.

00:02:21.200 And consequently, since no one teaches this in schools these days on either side of the pond, we're a mystery to each other because we don't understand this very important shared past.

00:02:35.000 So New England is, which is Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Maine, parts of upstate New York culturally, is settled by the people, the Puritans, who are primarily from East Anglia.

00:02:50.840 You know, that hump of England that points out into the English Channel at the Netherlands.

00:02:57.060 Virginia and Maryland, the shores of Maryland, not the big city of Baltimore, North and South Carolina, parts of Georgia, Kentucky, are settled by people from the southwest of England.

00:03:09.900 They were on the, ultimately, the losing side of the English Civil War.

00:03:14.060 They favored the crown.

00:03:15.240 They believed in hierarchy.

00:03:16.900 They believed in farms and incredibly indentured servitude, which is how slavery becomes, it becomes with, it begins in Britain with servitude of Welsh and Irish people.

00:03:29.800 And in America, since there's a shortage at the time of Welsh and Irish people in the 1600s, they turned to African sources out of the Caribbean.

00:03:40.220 And people can romanticize this culture.

00:03:43.000 It has some very interesting elements, but it has some profoundly evil elements as well.

00:03:48.680 But each of the four subcultures that make America have both good and bad, light and dark in them.

00:03:55.400 The Puritans of New England are legalistic, arrogant, right?

00:04:00.460 I'm talking about this time period.

00:04:01.720 I'm not making a statement about today, although you can draw your conclusions.

00:04:05.280 The people of the, what are called the middle states, New York, Pennsylvania is essentially a middle state, the Delaware Valley, the state of Delaware, New Jersey, they are settled from the West Midlands of England.

00:04:21.040 So these people have, and then the borderlands near the Scottish border in Northumbria and that area, those people settle the Appalachian Mountains, which are a rocky spine that runs from the state of Maine all the way down to Georgia.

00:04:34.220 And you've probably heard of the Appalachian Trail.

00:04:36.400 People do that tremendous hike.

00:04:38.840 It usually takes about a year.

00:04:41.220 It's a cradle walk.

00:04:42.500 But anyway, on both sides of that, of those mountains settle the people from the English side of the Scottish border.

00:04:50.220 And so each of them have different ideas about what freedom is.

00:04:54.420 And most importantly, they have different religious ideas.

00:04:57.680 And because they have different religious ideas, they have different political ideas.

00:05:02.460 Well, let's talk about that.

00:05:03.880 So first of all, we started the English Civil War.

00:05:05.820 Tell us about the Roundheads, the Cavaliers, and you also explained to us, you know, why the Puritans remind us of some things that are happening today, et cetera.

00:05:13.120 So break all of that down for us in more detail, please.

00:05:15.940 Sure.

00:05:16.140 Well, it would take hours to give you an adequate history of the English Civil War.

00:05:20.360 But the short version is after Henry VIII, Britain becomes a Protestant country.

00:05:28.460 But Henry, with the exception of his minister, Thomas Cromwell, who's ultimately executed, does not want it to become a very Protestant country.

00:05:39.900 So a lot of Catholic traditions remain.

00:05:42.540 And among the Puritan wing, they are very anxious to translate the Bible into English, which is how we get one of the great achievements in the English language, the King James Bible, which is still, you can find it in any bookstore in the United States to this day.

00:06:00.480 Right. Maybe not the original, but the new King James, which is functionally the same.

00:06:06.960 And it's where we get the Book of Common Prayer, which is the second largest source of idioms in the English language, comes from that one book.

00:06:13.920 The largest source of idioms obviously comes from the plays of Shakespeare, which is also around this time period.

00:06:19.140 Right. Which is why I asked you the other day, Francis, about what you thought of Shakespeare's politics.

00:06:23.580 Right. So the the crown is support is the Puritans suspect the crown has Catholic leanings and wants to return England to Rome.

00:06:36.360 And this creates a culture of suspicion and paranoia that ultimately leads to a battle between the parliament, which is dominated by urban dwellers and Puritans against the king, the royalists, otherwise known as the cavaliers, who are rural, traditional, have a very traditional view of Christianity.

00:07:05.080 Right. Right. They don't want big changes in their faith.

00:07:09.580 And these two, the battle is essentially, yes, it's one elite broken into two pieces at the top, but the people who are doing the fighting and dying on the roundhead side, so-called because of the hats the young clerks wore in London at the time.

00:07:26.200 These are young men who are very ideological, very sure of their beliefs, very intolerant of dissent, who are willing to use political violence even before the war starts to advance their views.

00:07:42.080 So the king at an early stage of the war was hanging on because votes in the House of Lords before the 1920s, the House of Lords was an important force in your country's politics.

00:07:53.760 The House of Lords was fairly divided, but the bishops would vote uniformly for the king for various reasons, but they would come by boat, right?

00:08:03.660 The Thames is a highway in this time period, so all long traffic or anything where you're carrying anything heavy would move up and down the Thames, right?

00:08:13.860 Which is why, even to this day, you'll see old docks in front of houses on the Thames where people, that's how you would get to work or get to market or whatever.

00:08:22.220 So the bishops would come down in their long boats and the roundheads would be waiting for them and try to sink their boats, throw rocks at them, bring another boats, throw them overboard.

00:08:37.640 So they would swim to shore and not be able to show up at the House of Lords to vote in favor of the king.

00:08:42.260 So the king is at that stage, early in the war, hanging on by a thread.

00:08:47.060 Ultimately, the king, now I'm going 20 years later, is executed, gives a famous speech, which is called the Scaffold Speech, where he makes a plea for individual liberty, ironic in that he's about to be the first and only assassinated king in English history, assassinated by the parliament.

00:09:07.000 But that speech was required in American public schools in southern states until the 1960s in many places, right?

00:09:17.180 So the cultural shadow of these events in America is quite long.

00:09:21.740 It's all but forgotten in your country, but it's alive here or it was alive a generation ago, right?

00:09:28.220 So all of our founding institutions, when we talk about the war between North and South, we're really talking about the war between the Puritans, the Roundheads, and the Cavaliers.

00:09:40.040 And the University of Virginia's sports teams to this very day are known as the Cavaliers, right?

00:09:45.620 And the Fighting Pilgrims or whatever that team is up there, same thing, right?

00:09:51.920 So it's these two cultures totally at loggerheads.

00:09:55.220 But in between are two other English cultures, right?

00:09:58.720 So the culture of the Appalachian Mountains, which is the Hatfields and McCoys, the Hillbillies, you know the lore.

00:10:05.820 These are people from the borderlands.

00:10:07.560 Their idea of freedom is not the freedom to impose virtue, which is the Puritan idea, or the freedom to maintain a social hierarchy, which is the Cavalier-Royalist idea.

00:10:20.600 Their idea is the freedom to be left alone.

00:10:24.040 But before your libertarian heart fills with joy and say, these were my people, they're also deeply opposed to education, especially of women.

00:10:33.480 So it's a very mixed bag.

00:10:35.220 This is not a story with good guys on one side and bad guys on the other.

00:10:39.360 People have elements of both.

00:10:42.340 And then what we now call the Middle States, which is from the West Midlands of your country, this is yet another perspective.

00:10:52.040 And they want the freedom to make money.

00:10:55.040 And they want to be left alone to make money.

00:10:58.860 But they do want law and order to punish corruption because they think in commercial markets and financial markets, people will steal.

00:11:07.380 And then Cromwell dies and the Puritan, you could say, dictatorship ends.

00:11:14.500 We're now in the 1660, 1661.

00:11:17.600 And it is set for the glorious restoration.

00:11:22.040 You probably remember this from your history books.

00:11:23.420 But in that time period and immediately thereafter, all the institutions that you recognize as English today, the Bank of England, the beginning of certain sports, such as the origins of cricket, all these things come from this time period.

00:11:43.680 But at this point, America has been settled for 80 years, right?

00:11:50.340 So they are still living in different pasts.

00:11:54.180 The Puritans who came here in the 1620s, when they fled, the royalists were in the ascendancy, so they fled to go practice their religion here.

00:12:03.460 Their view is still that they're a desperate religious minority fighting oppression.

00:12:07.800 Meanwhile, they're also carrying out witch hunts, literal hunting for witches.

00:12:12.940 There are something on the order of 350 people accused of witchcraft in the colonies, almost all, with a few exceptions, all in New England, right?

00:12:24.240 And including people being executed for being witches.

00:12:27.780 The only place you see witch trials in the UK in this time period is East Anglia, the place these people come from, right?

00:12:35.580 So, little side note, I'm sorry, I'm not giving you a very good answer, but anyway.

00:12:43.700 There's no such thing as immigration from country A to country B.

00:12:47.820 Social networks move.

00:12:49.660 So the ideas of the village these people are from becomes the idea of the village they settle in.

00:12:57.400 That becomes the idea of the inherited country, of the next country.

00:13:01.060 So, all immigration is the movement of social networks, and ideas move in social networks, right?

00:13:07.600 Well, hundreds of years later, those ideas have continued through those same social networks, families, and so on.

00:13:13.880 And so that puts America at odds with itself.

00:13:16.560 You have four different ideas about the relationship between the citizen and the state,

00:13:21.180 between the citizen and God, which is an historical question in most parts of Europe,

00:13:27.820 but it is very much a live question here, because, again, we're founded by coercive religious utopians, right?

00:13:34.880 So, what is America today?

00:13:41.660 Yes, there have been other waves of immigrants that have come and changed things.

00:13:45.020 The German immigration, the Irish immigration, the Asian immigration, the immigration from Mexico and South America,

00:13:54.360 all are important, right?

00:13:56.380 But, essentially, it's a compromise between these four different cultures,

00:14:01.920 which is why, to a people that continue to evolve, we seem strange,

00:14:08.940 because we are, in a cultural sense, and obviously our technology is cutting edge,

00:14:12.980 but in a cultural sense, we are your past.

00:14:16.160 And that is incredibly interesting.

00:14:20.180 And just the way you picked that apart was beautiful.

00:14:23.600 How does that impact America today and its politics?

00:14:29.260 Why is Trump popular?

00:14:31.840 For me, it's because he's pushing back at what people perceive,

00:14:35.760 and I perceive, to be the excesses of hyper-liberal progressivism.

00:14:41.180 That's definitely a layer of it.

00:14:43.640 That's what people say.

00:14:44.980 But let's look at the cultures, right?

00:14:46.740 So, let's go back to those four cultures.

00:14:49.480 People win the presidency by getting their own culture

00:14:52.660 and one or two of the other subcultures to go along with them, right?

00:14:56.700 And that's how Jimmy Carter got elected.

00:14:58.940 It's on Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, so on, right?

00:15:01.860 The Democrats have been very successful in the last 40 years

00:15:04.760 when they have a Southerner on the ticket

00:15:07.380 or someone who seems congenial to Southerners,

00:15:10.520 because that is a culture outside of their home base.

00:15:13.860 That is the cavalier culture, right?

00:15:15.880 I don't mean to be a reductionist.

00:15:17.600 Not everyone is.

00:15:18.680 We're not all marionettes of our great-grandparents, right?

00:15:22.300 That's ridiculous.

00:15:23.520 But it plays a role, right?

00:15:25.200 It plays a role in norms and mores and so on.

00:15:28.020 So, Trump wins because the people who have ideas

00:15:33.400 about individual liberty is to be completely left alone

00:15:36.180 and not helped what you could call

00:15:38.380 the proto-libertarian impulse in American life.

00:15:40.520 COVID was a watershed moment for them.

00:15:47.100 Suddenly, the government would invade your private life

00:15:50.300 and tell you who you could socialize with,

00:15:53.060 where you could go to work, when you could work,

00:15:57.060 how you could worship, what products you could buy.

00:16:01.480 I remember there was governor of Michigan said

00:16:03.680 you could go to use this lane in the hardware store,

00:16:06.120 but you couldn't go to this shop in this lane.

00:16:08.680 I mean, it's this aisle, right?

00:16:10.360 So, it's just crazy, right?

00:16:12.620 From the perspective of the proto-libertarian strand, right?

00:16:16.180 So, Trump has that.

00:16:18.200 Trump has the hierarchical idea of liberty strand as well, right?

00:16:22.620 So, even though he's criticized as a populist,

00:16:27.040 Trump is a fully paid-up member of the elite.

00:16:29.780 I mean, he went to Wharton,

00:16:30.680 one of the most elite schools in this country.

00:16:34.940 He comes from a rich family.

00:16:36.680 He has been a celebrity for more than 40 years, right?

00:16:42.760 He was important enough to be ridiculed by Spy Magazine in the 1980s

00:16:48.860 as a short-fingered Bulgarian, right?

00:16:53.480 It's impossible to imagine that kind of ridicule against the president today.

00:16:57.440 He has become a bigger figure,

00:17:00.980 but he's done it by assembling these subcultures.

00:17:04.440 Where Trump's support is the weakest

00:17:06.540 is in the Northeast, Massachusetts, New England area,

00:17:13.700 California, which was settled predominantly by the people of the Northeast,

00:17:18.500 and Oregon and Washington,

00:17:20.020 which was settled predominantly by people from New England, right?

00:17:23.280 So, Portland, Washington is named after Portland, Maine, right?

00:17:28.000 And they actually had a coin flip

00:17:29.460 when they were deciding the name of that city

00:17:31.060 because they were going to call it New Boston,

00:17:33.240 Boston, Massachusetts.

00:17:35.340 So, you can see that he gets three out of the four cultures.

00:17:42.300 That's why, at a deep cultural level,

00:17:46.100 that's why Trump is popular.

00:17:47.820 Up here is issues, and issues are important,

00:17:50.740 and economic issues especially important.

00:17:53.860 But underneath that is, do you feel comfortable with him?

00:17:57.480 And if you are in one of the subcultures

00:17:59.680 that feels comfortable with him,

00:18:01.040 you are very, very comfortable with him.

00:18:03.340 He is familiar.

00:18:04.860 He embodies what you see as your virtues and values.

00:18:08.920 On the other hand, Kamala Harris is also somebody

00:18:13.040 who embodies certain virtues and values of her subculture,

00:18:16.520 but it's a subculture that couldn't win any allies,

00:18:20.000 which is why she lost so badly.

00:18:21.440 That and the idea of incompetence.

00:18:24.780 Americans love victory, like the Romans did,

00:18:27.680 and will not tolerate incompetence.

00:18:30.000 If you're going to go do something big

00:18:31.720 and you pull it off, everyone applauds.

00:18:33.680 If you fail, they quietly walk away.

00:18:37.260 Right?

00:18:37.700 There are second chances in life in America,

00:18:41.340 in business,

00:18:42.380 sometimes among celebrities,

00:18:45.240 definitely among pastors.

00:18:46.320 You can be caught in the biggest scandal

00:18:48.620 and have a big church five years later, right?

00:18:51.080 But in political life,

00:18:52.380 if you're going to involve the energies of our great economy

00:18:55.440 and direct it in some direction and fail,

00:18:59.760 that's just not tolerated, right?

00:19:01.340 So that's another component to it.

00:19:03.180 But the cultural fit is something that no one talks about

00:19:05.800 that is extremely important.

00:19:07.140 The world is changing fast,

00:19:09.660 and it's not enough to just know what the news is.

00:19:12.280 You have to know how it's being reported,

00:19:14.580 because the truth often depends on where you're standing.

00:19:17.320 That's why I use Ground News.

00:19:19.560 It's the only website and app that gathers and compares news

00:19:22.780 from over 50,000 sources around the world.

00:19:25.440 It doesn't just show you the headlines.

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00:19:29.140 and who owns the media outlet you're reading or watching.

00:19:32.380 When you know where the money is coming from,

00:19:34.280 you start to understand how power and influence

00:19:36.660 shape the stories we see.

00:19:38.200 Their blind spot feed is my favorite feature.

00:19:40.400 It shows you which stories are being ignored

00:19:42.240 by either the left or the right,

00:19:44.040 so you can actually spot media bias as it's happening

00:19:47.000 and stay ahead of the narrative.

00:19:48.840 They surface around 20 of these a day,

00:19:51.020 and some of them are pretty eye-opening.

00:19:53.100 This story on the UK developing a predictive tool

00:19:55.800 to determine if someone will become a killer

00:19:57.740 barely showed up in left-leaning outlets.

00:20:00.220 It's a major story when you think about

00:20:01.820 how far governments might go with AI and surveillance.

00:20:04.500 And on the other side,

00:20:05.640 this story about how more than 60% of CEOs

00:20:09.220 expect a recession in the next six months

00:20:11.240 currently has no coverage in right-leaning media at all.

00:20:14.580 That's a pretty big blind spot

00:20:15.820 when you're trying to understand

00:20:17.000 where the economy might be headed.

00:20:18.480 If you're someone who values nuance over noise,

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00:20:41.180 And we're talking about culture,

00:20:43.240 and I find J.D. Vance very interesting

00:20:45.680 in terms of culture

00:20:46.600 because he hails from those Appalachian roots

00:20:48.840 that you've mentioned,

00:20:49.960 yet he's also different because he's a Catholic,

00:20:52.940 commonly associated with the Italians,

00:20:55.680 the Irish, and the Latin Americans.

00:20:57.840 Yes.

00:20:58.780 That's an important point.

00:21:00.060 That would have been shocking

00:21:00.900 a generation or so ago.

00:21:03.360 There were protests in 1960

00:21:05.360 when John F. Kennedy won the nomination

00:21:07.240 among the Democrats.

00:21:08.860 They thought that America wasn't ready

00:21:10.720 for its first Catholic president.

00:21:13.760 And this is a time period

00:21:14.980 where even Protestants were reluctant

00:21:17.700 to marry outside their denomination.

00:21:19.300 I mean, a Methodist, an Episcopalian,

00:21:21.520 marrying, oh my gosh, right?

00:21:24.180 But I think America has changed

00:21:27.380 so fundamentally.

00:21:30.120 And let me make this clear.

00:21:31.680 When I'm talking about culture,

00:21:32.560 I don't mean what people on the left mean,

00:21:34.360 which is race.

00:21:35.320 There's no racial component here, right?

00:21:37.780 There is an important aspect

00:21:39.740 of American culture

00:21:40.800 that comes from the African diaspora

00:21:43.840 of enslaved people, right?

00:21:45.540 Not saying that.

00:21:46.660 But functionally,

00:21:49.060 you have three African-American cultures.

00:21:52.300 You have the African-American culture

00:21:54.520 of the South,

00:21:55.460 which is very much in line

00:21:58.700 with this hierarchical idea of liberty.

00:22:00.960 You have the African-American culture

00:22:04.480 of the North and of the Midwest,

00:22:06.400 which is a different kind.

00:22:08.620 And then you have the third,

00:22:09.660 which is recent immigration

00:22:10.960 from West Africa.

00:22:11.960 If you look among West Africans

00:22:14.380 or people from the Caribbean,

00:22:17.740 they voted much more for Trump

00:22:19.420 than other black Americans.

00:22:21.320 So this is not a point about race.

00:22:23.060 I'm actually being literal word

00:22:25.220 of culture here, right?

00:22:27.100 And it's interesting that you say that

00:22:29.060 because we experience the same thing

00:22:31.520 in the UK.

00:22:32.780 Those cultures who have come over,

00:22:34.700 you know, West African,

00:22:36.680 particularly Ghanaian, Nigerian,

00:22:38.340 first generation immigrants

00:22:39.400 from the Caribbean,

00:22:40.880 staunchly conservative

00:22:42.180 and very, very traditional

00:22:43.940 in their ways.

00:22:45.240 And then you look at black people

00:22:47.980 who have been in the UK

00:22:48.840 for three, four generations,

00:22:51.100 far more likely to vote Labour

00:22:52.720 as opposed to conservative.

00:22:54.360 Yes.

00:22:55.140 And more interestingly,

00:22:56.760 on the various jubilees

00:22:58.040 of the crown,

00:22:58.940 especially the queens,

00:23:00.200 you will see many people

00:23:01.580 from the Caribbean

00:23:02.400 cheering her on

00:23:03.940 when she was alive,

00:23:04.880 I mean, right?

00:23:06.500 And they almost didn't hold

00:23:08.680 the jubilee in the 70s.

00:23:10.020 They thought no one would turn up.

00:23:11.340 The great and the good

00:23:12.060 thought that no one would turn up.

00:23:13.620 And yet millions

00:23:15.100 of working class people did,

00:23:16.540 including people from the Caribbean

00:23:17.780 and from West Africa.

00:23:19.100 Yeah.

00:23:19.200 I was curious the way

00:23:20.440 you addressed Francis'

00:23:21.640 answer to your question

00:23:22.700 when you asked him

00:23:23.480 why is Trump popular

00:23:24.240 and he said

00:23:24.940 the pushback against hyper-liberalism.

00:23:27.260 Because you actually,

00:23:28.600 it seemed to me at least,

00:23:29.700 said almost the same thing

00:23:31.200 in a way,

00:23:31.960 which is the Puritans

00:23:34.580 are the one group

00:23:36.040 that Trump didn't have

00:23:37.240 and the one group

00:23:37.960 that was starting to get

00:23:39.240 on everybody's nerves,

00:23:40.300 essentially, right?

00:23:41.160 Yes.

00:23:41.420 Like, for example,

00:23:42.600 like the freedom-loving people.

00:23:45.020 I mean, I instantly thought

00:23:46.000 of Joe Rogan, for example, right?

00:23:47.280 Somebody who I think

00:23:48.280 it's fair to say

00:23:49.420 really changed

00:23:50.420 a lot of his perspectives

00:23:52.320 because of COVID,

00:23:53.520 because of the way,

00:23:54.660 you know,

00:23:55.380 tyrannical restrictions

00:23:57.000 were imposed, right?

00:23:58.000 So I guess I'm curious

00:24:01.120 about that.

00:24:03.620 But also, I think

00:24:04.680 what I'm very interested in

00:24:06.320 is are these four utopias

00:24:09.180 equally powerful

00:24:10.440 and influential

00:24:11.160 in American society?

00:24:13.100 How would you rank them

00:24:14.420 in terms of influence,

00:24:15.440 power, population?

00:24:16.640 The balance of power

00:24:17.760 among them shifts

00:24:18.660 all the time, right?

00:24:20.540 So, I mean,

00:24:22.480 Charleston, South Carolina

00:24:23.400 was one of the richest cities

00:24:24.800 in the United States

00:24:25.520 in the early 1700s.

00:24:26.760 You would not have said that

00:24:28.840 during most of the 20th century.

00:24:30.780 The middle states

00:24:31.880 were manufacturing powerhouses

00:24:34.300 after World War II

00:24:36.200 up until the early 70s.

00:24:39.460 And interestingly,

00:24:42.140 when, and those,

00:24:43.540 the people who settled

00:24:44.480 that area tended to be Quakers

00:24:46.240 and other people

00:24:48.580 who were not part

00:24:50.340 of the Church of England,

00:24:51.420 but also not part

00:24:52.400 of the Puritan wing, right?

00:24:53.740 When those factories

00:24:56.780 began to be closed

00:24:57.760 to steel mills,

00:24:58.660 especially in Pennsylvania

00:24:59.840 in the 1970s,

00:25:00.900 they accused environmentalists

00:25:04.180 from Massachusetts.

00:25:06.280 Why did they say

00:25:07.480 from Massachusetts?

00:25:09.640 Right?

00:25:10.020 It's an echo.

00:25:11.360 It's a memory

00:25:11.940 of a cultural divide

00:25:13.940 that in 1970

00:25:16.080 was still enough

00:25:18.340 to make a distinction.

00:25:20.220 I mean,

00:25:21.600 whenever,

00:25:22.960 and I meet younger people

00:25:24.480 who think that this

00:25:25.580 is all structural racism,

00:25:27.280 I ask them

00:25:29.580 the Star Wars question,

00:25:30.900 right?

00:25:31.300 Did I try this

00:25:32.520 with you guys last time?

00:25:33.700 So here's the question.

00:25:35.580 Do you ever see

00:25:36.040 the first Star Wars movie

00:25:37.520 in New Hope,

00:25:38.160 the original Star Wars movie?

00:25:40.140 Yes.

00:25:40.540 You've seen it, right?

00:25:40.980 Yeah.

00:25:41.340 Do you remember the scene

00:25:42.220 with Luke Skywalker

00:25:43.780 and Ben Kenobi

00:25:44.680 and they walk into the bar

00:25:45.900 with all the crazy aliens

00:25:47.040 and the two robots

00:25:47.940 are with them,

00:25:48.720 RTD2C3PO?

00:25:50.060 Do you remember that?

00:25:50.500 Yes, yeah.

00:25:51.420 What does the barman say?

00:25:56.080 I can't remember.

00:25:58.220 I can't remember.

00:26:00.040 He points like this

00:26:01.900 and he says,

00:26:02.400 we don't serve their kind,

00:26:04.820 right?

00:26:05.920 Why does he say that?

00:26:09.300 Because he doesn't serve robots.

00:26:11.960 He only serves living beings.

00:26:14.220 Hmm.

00:26:14.680 Why do you think he says that?

00:26:16.080 I imagine it's

00:26:17.200 a cultural reference.

00:26:18.680 It is.

00:26:19.220 So in May 1977,

00:26:21.660 11 years after

00:26:22.760 the Civil Rights Act,

00:26:24.400 everyone in the theater knew

00:26:25.820 that was a reference

00:26:26.980 to bigoted Southerners

00:26:29.020 who were segregating

00:26:30.540 their bars and restaurants

00:26:31.940 and not serving black people.

00:26:36.000 And this was George Lucas'

00:26:37.740 way of making this point.

00:26:39.280 But I ask this question now

00:26:41.320 here in 2025

00:26:42.220 for a different reason.

00:26:43.840 that cultural context

00:26:45.860 of segregation

00:26:46.620 is so far behind us,

00:26:48.820 you didn't think about it

00:26:50.240 as an explanation

00:26:51.180 for why the barman

00:26:52.620 says that.

00:26:53.580 Yeah.

00:26:54.440 And for people

00:26:55.420 younger than ourselves,

00:26:57.060 they're really puzzled.

00:26:59.540 Right?

00:27:00.080 Other than the robot fallback,

00:27:01.560 they're trying to figure out

00:27:03.020 what does this mean?

00:27:04.300 Right?

00:27:04.500 So I think America has,

00:27:07.640 I mean,

00:27:07.860 do I think all racism

00:27:08.940 is gone?

00:27:09.460 Of course not.

00:27:10.000 There's a terrible part

00:27:12.180 in every human heart

00:27:13.580 that dislikes those

00:27:16.220 who are not like them.

00:27:17.100 Right?

00:27:19.340 But I think bigotry

00:27:21.380 has dropped

00:27:22.060 to its lowest ebb

00:27:23.960 in America

00:27:24.520 in our history.

00:27:25.660 Right?

00:27:26.860 And the Star Wars question,

00:27:28.700 I think,

00:27:29.020 kind of gets at that.

00:27:29.740 Right?

00:27:30.680 So coming back

00:27:31.440 to the power ranking,

00:27:33.720 so to speak,

00:27:34.320 it shifts over time.

00:27:35.860 How would you analyze

00:27:37.140 the state

00:27:38.040 of those four utopias today

00:27:39.540 as we sit here?

00:27:40.940 I think Florida

00:27:41.680 and Texas

00:27:42.160 are attracting

00:27:42.800 the most internal migrants,

00:27:44.540 you know,

00:27:44.680 people moving

00:27:45.280 from California,

00:27:47.160 the Northeast,

00:27:48.020 and so on,

00:27:48.800 into those states.

00:27:50.040 It's happening

00:27:50.840 very rapidly.

00:27:52.200 Right?

00:27:53.740 Other states

00:27:54.620 with similar values

00:27:55.480 like Wyoming,

00:27:56.560 Utah,

00:27:56.980 are also growing,

00:27:57.880 not quite as rapidly.

00:27:59.640 Idaho,

00:28:00.920 you know,

00:28:02.220 there's a sign

00:28:02.840 outside of Bozeman,

00:28:03.780 Montana.

00:28:04.300 There's so many people

00:28:05.440 have moved in

00:28:05.980 from Los Angeles

00:28:06.740 that when you leave Bozeman

00:28:07.920 and you're heading

00:28:08.460 into the countryside,

00:28:09.480 it says,

00:28:10.280 welcome to Montana.

00:28:11.300 Right?

00:28:12.440 So these cultural divides

00:28:13.820 are still there.

00:28:14.700 But the deep red states,

00:28:17.760 especially those

00:28:18.560 in the cavalier tradition,

00:28:21.680 which, to be clear,

00:28:23.220 is a very mixed tradition,

00:28:24.320 I'm not romanticizing it anyway,

00:28:26.720 are now very attractive.

00:28:28.240 So their power is surging.

00:28:30.140 The power of the Puritan

00:28:32.200 New England

00:28:32.880 has faded considerably

00:28:35.780 in the last 30 or 40 years.

00:28:38.180 So, yes,

00:28:39.820 all the elite universities

00:28:41.260 or almost all the elite universities

00:28:43.040 are located there.

00:28:44.080 and they still have enormous cultural power.

00:28:47.720 But even that cultural power

00:28:50.460 has declined.

00:28:51.560 I mean,

00:28:51.840 the anti-Semitic riots

00:28:54.960 at Columbia,

00:28:56.540 the censorship at Harvard,

00:28:59.500 these have hurt these institutions.

00:29:02.400 And yes,

00:29:03.220 there are tech startups there,

00:29:05.140 but not as many

00:29:05.980 as in California

00:29:07.140 or let alone Austin

00:29:08.200 or now

00:29:08.920 Windward

00:29:10.800 in the Windward section of Miami.

00:29:12.380 So the cultural power

00:29:15.540 of that region

00:29:16.840 has definitely declined

00:29:18.100 in the last 30 or 40 years.

00:29:20.280 And economics is a part of it,

00:29:21.760 but culture is the rest of it.

00:29:23.020 The idea that

00:29:23.640 there used to be

00:29:26.240 a desire

00:29:27.760 throughout the country,

00:29:29.460 our country,

00:29:30.240 to emulate New England.

00:29:33.640 That just isn't around anymore.

00:29:35.220 And what about

00:29:37.240 the other two?

00:29:38.400 The other two cultures?

00:29:41.000 So the middle states

00:29:43.860 and then arcing

00:29:44.640 into what we call

00:29:45.320 the Rust Belt,

00:29:46.100 the industrial era,

00:29:47.860 formerly industrial era

00:29:49.060 of Ohio,

00:29:49.800 Indiana,

00:29:50.480 Illinois,

00:29:51.320 Michigan,

00:29:52.100 around the Great Lakes.

00:29:53.780 That was,

00:29:55.180 that still determines

00:29:56.000 close elections,

00:29:56.940 of course.

00:29:57.420 That's where

00:29:57.860 three of the,

00:29:58.880 four of the swing states are.

00:30:01.580 But those are things

00:30:03.100 that are turning

00:30:03.620 more and more

00:30:04.480 to the right.

00:30:05.220 Ohio was a swing state

00:30:06.580 until a few elections ago.

00:30:10.680 Pennsylvania may be,

00:30:12.160 it's on the bubble,

00:30:12.940 it could go either way,

00:30:13.640 but it may be heading red.

00:30:16.480 Michigan,

00:30:17.400 it's a jump ball,

00:30:18.680 it's gone back and forth.

00:30:20.600 But that region

00:30:22.840 has now seemed

00:30:23.960 to have hit the bottom

00:30:24.820 and is climbing back up.

00:30:26.260 There's more innovation there.

00:30:28.260 They're losing fewer people, right?

00:30:30.560 If we look at cultural power,

00:30:32.340 just at who rents

00:30:33.360 a U-Haul van

00:30:33.940 to go somewhere else.

00:30:35.220 That's a pretty good indication.

00:30:37.440 But also how these regions

00:30:38.620 are portrayed

00:30:39.340 in popular culture, right?

00:30:43.080 There's not

00:30:43.680 a constant cultural criticism

00:30:47.880 of that region.

00:30:50.240 30 or 40 years ago,

00:30:51.720 people looked,

00:30:52.600 had great admiration

00:30:53.960 for, say, Pennsylvania

00:30:55.020 and its industrial capacity

00:30:56.600 and its ability

00:30:57.660 to create middle-class life.

00:30:58.840 And there's a great longing there

00:31:01.200 to return to those days.

00:31:02.400 So when you say

00:31:02.900 make America great again,

00:31:04.620 in Pennsylvania,

00:31:06.280 what that means is,

00:31:08.600 wait a minute,

00:31:09.140 we had it just a generation ago.

00:31:11.560 Like,

00:31:12.220 why can't we have it back?

00:31:14.700 And the Appalachian?

00:31:15.640 The Appalachian region?

00:31:18.300 I mean,

00:31:21.100 I would not say it's rising.

00:31:23.160 I mean,

00:31:23.360 it's leveled off.

00:31:25.440 So it feels like

00:31:26.300 the battle is really

00:31:27.240 between the Cavaliers

00:31:28.720 and the Puritans

00:31:30.400 and the others

00:31:31.680 are kind of the swing

00:31:32.680 in the middle.

00:31:33.380 Is that?

00:31:33.760 For now, yes.

00:31:34.580 At the moment.

00:31:35.260 But,

00:31:36.240 you know,

00:31:36.640 a few decades from now,

00:31:37.660 it might look

00:31:38.180 very, very different.

00:31:39.280 And there's also a part of

00:31:41.380 when we talk about Christianity,

00:31:43.400 which is

00:31:43.980 the side of Christianity

00:31:45.720 that J.D. Vance represents,

00:31:47.260 which is

00:31:47.640 this resurgence

00:31:48.940 of Catholicism,

00:31:50.020 which I find fascinating.

00:31:51.920 Because you don't really

00:31:53.140 see it in Europe,

00:31:54.920 but you come here

00:31:55.860 and the Catholic Church

00:31:57.380 has real power to it.

00:31:59.500 You see it increasingly

00:32:00.560 in France,

00:32:01.380 especially in rural France.

00:32:02.660 But yeah,

00:32:03.140 I take your point, Francis.

00:32:05.620 But I think

00:32:06.540 this is a COVID effect.

00:32:08.160 I think

00:32:08.640 COVID made a lot of people

00:32:11.140 in their 20s.

00:32:12.120 And one of the things

00:32:13.040 about being in your 20s

00:32:13.960 is you think you're going

00:32:14.620 to live forever, right?

00:32:16.520 All been there.

00:32:17.680 And

00:32:18.080 you suddenly realize,

00:32:19.920 like,

00:32:20.320 oh, wait a minute.

00:32:21.500 There's this

00:32:22.100 mysterious pathogen

00:32:23.300 that the media

00:32:24.540 has been telling us

00:32:26.280 could kill

00:32:27.160 large numbers of us

00:32:28.480 very suddenly, right?

00:32:30.480 And you can go

00:32:31.320 one of two ways

00:32:32.600 when threatened

00:32:33.160 with sudden

00:32:34.640 random death, right?

00:32:35.820 You can say,

00:32:36.380 I'm going to live for today

00:32:37.200 and party like crazy,

00:32:38.060 and people did that.

00:32:39.460 But I think

00:32:40.140 a lot of people

00:32:41.060 started looking online

00:32:43.400 for other alternatives,

00:32:45.880 ways of thinking

00:32:46.540 about their life.

00:32:47.340 So there was a big surge

00:32:49.280 in people under 35

00:32:51.000 getting interested

00:32:52.760 in the traditional

00:32:53.320 Latin mass.

00:32:54.540 There was a great interest

00:32:56.420 in the Russian

00:32:57.980 and Greek Orthodox churches

00:32:59.460 here.

00:32:59.920 where the traditional

00:33:02.920 Anglicans

00:33:03.760 saw new converts

00:33:05.740 who found them

00:33:06.820 on the web.

00:33:09.300 And it's,

00:33:10.440 but the more liberal

00:33:11.600 faiths didn't

00:33:12.740 because they,

00:33:14.340 what attracts people

00:33:15.380 in a crisis

00:33:15.920 is certain

00:33:16.940 clear answers.

00:33:18.900 And so the more

00:33:21.060 the religion

00:33:22.740 imposed upon them,

00:33:24.080 the more it was

00:33:25.020 attractive, right?

00:33:27.000 The same thing

00:33:27.500 is true in Judaism

00:33:28.200 where Orthodoxy

00:33:29.800 is seeing young converts,

00:33:31.480 but on the other

00:33:32.700 end of the spectrum,

00:33:33.440 the reform element,

00:33:35.620 you know,

00:33:35.880 there's a wonderful

00:33:36.820 joke about this

00:33:38.100 involving Donald Trump

00:33:38.940 and what's the difference

00:33:40.380 between a reformed

00:33:41.200 rabbi

00:33:41.580 and Donald Trump?

00:33:43.120 Donald Trump

00:33:43.800 has Jewish grandchildren.

00:33:44.720 Right?

00:33:47.360 I mean,

00:33:47.560 they're kind of

00:33:47.940 fading away.

00:33:48.500 So there's a great,

00:33:50.100 and there's something,

00:33:52.680 it's harder to make

00:33:53.620 comparisons

00:33:54.480 inside Islam,

00:33:55.800 but you see a lot

00:33:56.900 of very educated

00:33:57.760 people in the Arab

00:33:58.620 world attracted

00:33:59.760 to the Salafi

00:34:00.840 version

00:34:01.460 of that,

00:34:02.580 of Sunni Islam.

00:34:04.960 Again,

00:34:05.580 a search for certainty.

00:34:07.200 And one thing

00:34:08.840 that we've both

00:34:09.640 noticed since being

00:34:10.600 here is,

00:34:11.320 and it's reminded

00:34:12.100 to us,

00:34:12.600 is how religious

00:34:13.920 this country is.

00:34:15.180 Yes.

00:34:15.820 And not only

00:34:16.500 how religious it is,

00:34:17.620 but we're seeing

00:34:19.060 a resurgence

00:34:19.800 not only of Catholicism,

00:34:21.160 but I think of Christianity

00:34:22.760 across the U.S.

00:34:23.880 as a whole.

00:34:24.680 Yes.

00:34:25.040 Why is that?

00:34:25.800 Is that the COVID effect

00:34:26.980 or is something else

00:34:28.360 going on here?

00:34:29.460 So COVID is

00:34:30.620 a catalyst,

00:34:33.000 but there's other

00:34:33.960 long-term trends here,

00:34:35.160 right?

00:34:35.400 So one is,

00:34:37.940 there is,

00:34:39.540 and I assume

00:34:40.260 this is true

00:34:40.800 in Europe as well,

00:34:41.540 incredible social

00:34:44.540 loneliness,

00:34:45.940 especially among

00:34:47.580 young men,

00:34:48.720 right?

00:34:49.080 But also young women.

00:34:51.020 The social isolation,

00:34:53.300 right?

00:34:53.620 The dictatorship

00:34:54.840 of the small screen

00:34:56.480 has put women

00:35:00.600 into competition

00:35:01.360 with each other,

00:35:02.180 make-believe versions

00:35:03.040 like,

00:35:03.460 oh,

00:35:03.920 her life is perfect

00:35:04.900 on Instagram,

00:35:05.580 my life should be like that.

00:35:07.160 And that creates

00:35:07.920 a kind of nihilism.

00:35:08.880 And also,

00:35:12.880 in addition to

00:35:13.680 the loneliness,

00:35:14.980 the alienation,

00:35:16.160 there are a great

00:35:18.420 number of people

00:35:19.340 who grew up

00:35:20.900 in single,

00:35:21.920 what you would call

00:35:22.740 lone parent homes,

00:35:24.440 single mother's homes.

00:35:26.880 And they are

00:35:28.380 trying to figure out

00:35:29.940 how do I,

00:35:30.900 for the men,

00:35:31.480 how do I become a man,

00:35:32.740 right?

00:35:33.460 It doesn't just happen

00:35:34.820 automatically.

00:35:35.300 You have to try

00:35:37.580 and fail

00:35:38.080 at a number

00:35:38.580 of things

00:35:39.100 to find out

00:35:40.200 who you are

00:35:41.080 and what you're

00:35:41.500 made of.

00:35:42.800 And there are no

00:35:43.960 easy-to-turn-to

00:35:45.540 cultural touchstones

00:35:48.100 for how you make

00:35:49.020 that journey

00:35:49.600 and become a man.

00:35:50.980 So,

00:35:51.640 they're seeking

00:35:52.200 very traditional

00:35:52.920 answers,

00:35:53.860 largely because

00:35:54.580 those are the only

00:35:55.460 ones on offer.

00:35:56.640 But also,

00:35:57.940 those messages

00:35:59.420 work and have

00:36:00.280 worked for decades,

00:36:01.780 right?

00:36:02.040 for younger

00:36:06.380 women,

00:36:07.080 I think it's

00:36:07.620 much,

00:36:08.020 much harder.

00:36:09.100 There is no

00:36:09.800 female Jordan

00:36:10.760 Peterson,

00:36:11.520 right?

00:36:12.740 And maybe

00:36:14.300 there can't be.

00:36:16.420 But

00:36:17.020 all of that

00:36:20.100 has political

00:36:21.280 and religious

00:36:22.020 effects.

00:36:22.880 So,

00:36:23.240 when you start

00:36:24.440 attending a more

00:36:25.300 traditional church

00:36:26.620 or synagogue,

00:36:29.160 you get to join

00:36:30.860 a social network

00:36:31.700 that meets in

00:36:32.380 person,

00:36:33.260 that makes

00:36:34.080 demands on you,

00:36:35.060 that forces you

00:36:35.760 to change in

00:36:36.620 small and

00:36:37.200 sometimes in

00:36:37.760 big ways.

00:36:39.480 But in

00:36:40.500 exchange for

00:36:41.080 that,

00:36:41.480 you become

00:36:42.080 part of a

00:36:42.660 group larger

00:36:43.280 than yourself.

00:36:45.240 And it's

00:36:46.020 not so lonely.

00:36:47.980 And suddenly,

00:36:49.200 the things that

00:36:49.680 you're suffering,

00:36:50.380 you realize that

00:36:51.040 other people are

00:36:51.760 suffering similar

00:36:52.680 things or the

00:36:53.520 same thing.

00:36:54.640 And there's a

00:36:55.420 power in that.

00:36:56.480 So,

00:36:56.640 it's a,

00:36:58.380 Francis,

00:36:58.900 I think you put

00:36:59.320 your finger on a

00:37:00.040 profound social

00:37:00.920 change.

00:37:01.960 I think it's

00:37:02.500 not just

00:37:02.840 happening here.

00:37:03.640 I think to a

00:37:04.220 lesser extent,

00:37:04.880 it's happening

00:37:05.360 in Europe and

00:37:06.540 Australia.

00:37:07.520 But it's

00:37:07.940 definitely happening

00:37:08.720 here and in a

00:37:09.360 big way.

00:37:10.240 And that is

00:37:10.940 also going to

00:37:11.680 have an effect

00:37:12.280 societally,

00:37:13.340 both positive

00:37:14.000 and in some

00:37:14.660 instances negative.

00:37:15.780 But it's also

00:37:16.380 going to have an

00:37:16.960 effect on your

00:37:17.880 politics and not

00:37:18.960 only your

00:37:19.640 politics,

00:37:20.500 because let's

00:37:21.060 be fair,

00:37:21.800 your politics

00:37:22.500 affects our

00:37:23.300 politics and it

00:37:24.080 affects global

00:37:24.900 politics.

00:37:26.440 Yes.

00:37:27.040 Right.

00:37:27.360 By your,

00:37:27.760 you mean

00:37:27.940 America's.

00:37:28.480 Yeah,

00:37:28.740 exactly.

00:37:30.400 Right.

00:37:31.160 No,

00:37:31.600 I mean,

00:37:32.160 look,

00:37:32.760 we're all

00:37:33.780 billiard balls

00:37:35.480 on the same

00:37:35.960 table bouncing

00:37:36.640 off against

00:37:37.160 each other.

00:37:37.720 Right.

00:37:37.980 So,

00:37:38.860 you know,

00:37:41.240 Vance might

00:37:42.420 say what he

00:37:42.840 wants about

00:37:43.880 Europe,

00:37:44.360 but does

00:37:46.420 America want

00:37:47.280 to be alone

00:37:48.080 in the world

00:37:49.000 as the only

00:37:50.460 island left

00:37:52.100 of this

00:37:52.900 civilization?

00:37:53.520 It is highly

00:37:56.060 unusual in

00:37:56.800 world history

00:37:57.380 to have

00:37:58.620 two enormous

00:38:00.780 continental

00:38:01.380 economic

00:38:03.180 powerhouses

00:38:03.940 inside the

00:38:05.260 same

00:38:05.540 civilization,

00:38:07.040 right,

00:38:07.340 in different

00:38:07.780 geographies.

00:38:08.600 It just

00:38:08.920 hasn't happened

00:38:10.260 before.

00:38:11.660 And if

00:38:13.300 Europe were

00:38:15.040 to fall

00:38:15.480 and disappear,

00:38:16.480 I think there

00:38:17.160 would be,

00:38:17.900 I don't think

00:38:18.680 the average

00:38:19.160 American is

00:38:20.500 saying,

00:38:21.260 you know,

00:38:21.560 the heck

00:38:22.080 with the

00:38:22.360 Europeans.

00:38:23.520 On the

00:38:24.880 other,

00:38:25.200 I mean,

00:38:25.400 there is

00:38:25.820 a feeling

00:38:26.320 that NATO

00:38:28.160 especially has

00:38:29.000 been like

00:38:29.920 the brother-in-law

00:38:30.580 living on your

00:38:31.160 couch that

00:38:32.000 won't go get

00:38:32.460 a job,

00:38:33.160 right,

00:38:33.460 even though

00:38:34.300 he's got

00:38:34.580 a PhD,

00:38:35.240 right?

00:38:35.900 And so

00:38:36.820 the Russian

00:38:39.580 invasion of

00:38:40.580 Ukraine has

00:38:41.240 forced some

00:38:42.060 serious

00:38:42.700 thinking.

00:38:45.800 But ultimately,

00:38:46.940 the Europeans

00:38:47.340 have to decide

00:38:48.260 if they want

00:38:48.780 their politics

00:38:49.440 to be captured

00:38:50.400 by some

00:38:51.720 aging boomers

00:38:52.660 and a large

00:38:54.140 number of

00:38:54.680 school teachers,

00:38:55.520 and I'm

00:38:55.800 speaking mostly

00:38:56.460 of Germany

00:38:56.900 here,

00:38:58.000 that they

00:38:58.980 have run

00:38:59.720 German politics

00:39:01.000 since the

00:39:01.520 1980s,

00:39:02.400 since Hermit

00:39:03.120 Kohl's last

00:39:04.260 days.

00:39:05.100 And they are

00:39:05.880 the force

00:39:06.300 behind the

00:39:06.720 Green Party

00:39:07.280 and the

00:39:07.600 Social Democrats.

00:39:09.540 And I think

00:39:11.820 that society

00:39:12.760 in Europe

00:39:13.620 is starting

00:39:14.200 to realize

00:39:14.800 they're not

00:39:16.000 making,

00:39:16.660 they're kind

00:39:17.060 of toxic

00:39:17.480 people,

00:39:18.060 and they're

00:39:18.260 not making

00:39:18.720 the best

00:39:19.140 decisions for

00:39:19.820 all of us,

00:39:20.360 they're making

00:39:20.660 the best

00:39:21.040 decisions for

00:39:21.680 themselves.

00:39:22.880 And I think

00:39:23.300 that's the

00:39:23.640 problem the

00:39:24.000 Democratic Party

00:39:24.660 has in the

00:39:25.080 United States.

00:39:26.380 I think

00:39:26.780 ordinary people

00:39:27.520 could say,

00:39:27.940 well, okay,

00:39:28.420 we understand

00:39:29.380 why you like

00:39:30.080 censorship,

00:39:30.720 it makes it

00:39:31.220 easier for you,

00:39:32.660 you think you're

00:39:33.360 better than us,

00:39:34.400 right?

00:39:35.480 And what the

00:39:38.300 censorship wing

00:39:39.380 of the Democratic

00:39:39.960 Party, and it's

00:39:40.480 not all Democrats,

00:39:41.260 just the censorship

00:39:42.240 wing in particular,

00:39:43.500 is they haven't

00:39:44.920 realized that the

00:39:45.940 average person has

00:39:46.960 realized that

00:39:48.060 political correctness

00:39:49.200 is really a form

00:39:50.440 of class warfare.

00:39:52.280 When you're

00:39:52.980 correcting people's

00:39:53.800 words and phrases,

00:39:54.780 what you're really

00:39:55.460 saying is, I went

00:39:57.160 to university, I

00:39:58.400 learned the magic

00:39:59.140 words, you

00:40:00.620 didn't, and I'm

00:40:02.040 going to correct

00:40:02.660 you, and I'm

00:40:03.360 going to improve

00:40:04.440 you, and I'm

00:40:04.900 going to scold

00:40:05.660 you, because I

00:40:06.920 am better than

00:40:07.500 you.

00:40:08.240 It's class warfare.

00:40:10.380 And it took a

00:40:11.420 while for people to

00:40:12.900 work that out, but I

00:40:14.060 think on both sides

00:40:14.800 of the Atlantic, they

00:40:15.380 have, and they

00:40:16.700 resent it, right?

00:40:18.660 The inability to

00:40:21.340 recognize the

00:40:22.080 humanity of people

00:40:22.980 with different

00:40:23.460 education levels and

00:40:24.480 different income

00:40:25.000 levels is profoundly

00:40:29.480 destabilizing, and

00:40:31.380 this is a problem

00:40:32.020 caused by our elite.

00:40:33.420 If you cannot see

00:40:34.560 people with fewer

00:40:36.000 years of education

00:40:37.040 and fewer dollars in

00:40:38.300 their pocket as

00:40:39.360 equal to you as

00:40:40.480 someone you could

00:40:41.480 potentially learn

00:40:42.200 from, it's certainly

00:40:43.940 that you could engage

00:40:44.860 as an equal and have

00:40:46.040 a back and forth.

00:40:46.680 If you don't have

00:40:49.240 that, you are on

00:40:52.080 the road to anarchy

00:40:53.540 or civil war, and

00:40:55.900 neither one of those

00:40:56.520 things is good.

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00:42:09.860 Right.

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00:42:49.580 Coming back to the

00:42:50.660 religion point, I think

00:42:52.480 it's fascinating for us

00:42:53.680 becoming aware, spending

00:42:56.440 time here, how important

00:42:58.320 religion is in American

00:42:59.780 society and how much, as

00:43:02.000 you say, that fuels the

00:43:04.040 political debates that

00:43:05.260 you have.

00:43:05.620 And one of the things

00:43:06.900 that I think, as an

00:43:08.420 outsider, is actually

00:43:09.960 somewhat easier to do

00:43:11.060 maybe, is to be the

00:43:11.800 translator a little bit

00:43:12.880 between the two

00:43:13.520 perspectives.

00:43:14.440 I know for a fact that

00:43:15.740 one of the things that

00:43:17.100 really drives the left in

00:43:18.780 this country is the fear

00:43:19.980 of the religious right.

00:43:21.820 And I think for a lot of

00:43:23.180 people with Trump, it was

00:43:24.520 possible to pretend that

00:43:25.820 the religious right isn't a

00:43:27.280 big deal because he's, I

00:43:28.600 mean, he's clearly not, I

00:43:29.860 mean, I don't presume to

00:43:31.260 say, but he doesn't strike me

00:43:32.660 as the most God-fearing,

00:43:34.520 Bible-bashing type of

00:43:35.560 character, and many of the

00:43:37.140 other people around him

00:43:38.100 haven't been.

00:43:38.980 Quite.

00:43:40.520 But at the same time, as

00:43:42.160 Francis mentioned, Dede

00:43:43.320 Vance and others, and

00:43:45.560 frankly, you know, the

00:43:46.700 religious right does

00:43:47.360 exercise a lot of power.

00:43:48.800 So what's the right way to

00:43:50.520 think about all of these

00:43:51.500 things from your

00:43:52.180 perspective?

00:43:53.420 How influential are these

00:43:55.060 movements?

00:43:55.620 What do they want?

00:43:56.800 And so on.

00:43:57.820 So, I mean, I haven't

00:43:59.140 heard anybody say the

00:44:00.560 religious right in a very

00:44:01.460 long time, right?

00:44:03.980 I hear young people

00:44:05.180 saying, you know, that's

00:44:06.080 why I bring it up.

00:44:06.900 Young people are bringing

00:44:08.460 it up now.

00:44:09.080 Well, I think there is

00:44:10.160 more of an attraction to

00:44:11.800 it now.

00:44:16.120 I mean, would the

00:44:17.800 religious right be bigger

00:44:18.880 if we didn't have co-ed

00:44:20.680 dorms, right, on college

00:44:23.260 campuses?

00:44:23.960 Because that forces a lot

00:44:25.820 of people who come from

00:44:26.620 religious homes to stop

00:44:29.360 being religious, right?

00:44:30.700 And so it was a big social

00:44:34.660 fight in the 60s, and all

00:44:36.660 of the things they said

00:44:38.100 would come of it were

00:44:39.060 just dismissed.

00:44:40.400 But that absolutely had a

00:44:42.160 political change.

00:44:42.740 You mean when you get

00:44:43.660 young men and young women

00:44:45.300 together in the same space,

00:44:46.580 things happen that end

00:44:48.720 their religious...

00:44:50.360 Yes.

00:44:51.020 Right?

00:44:51.300 I mean...

00:44:51.480 Very strong centrifugal

00:44:52.880 forces begin to take

00:44:54.120 effect.

00:44:54.540 Yeah.

00:44:54.780 Human nature takes its

00:44:55.880 course.

00:44:56.880 But then you, as someone

00:44:59.280 from a religious home,

00:45:00.140 don't feel comfortable

00:45:00.880 going to church because

00:45:01.800 you are in the wrong.

00:45:03.060 Right?

00:45:03.240 Right?

00:45:03.740 Right?

00:45:04.840 And so if you...

00:45:07.000 I was talking to this

00:45:08.140 professor from Wheaton

00:45:08.960 College, which is a

00:45:09.780 Christian school some years

00:45:11.080 ago, and he said,

00:45:12.240 yes, co-ed dorms have

00:45:13.980 ended more Christian

00:45:14.920 lives, taking more people

00:45:16.360 out of the faith than

00:45:17.620 anything else.

00:45:18.240 Right?

00:45:19.060 And no, I do not think

00:45:20.100 there's any political move

00:45:21.140 to unscramble that

00:45:23.080 omelet.

00:45:23.400 I don't think we're

00:45:23.960 going to have single-sex

00:45:24.800 dorms in American campuses

00:45:26.240 anytime soon.

00:45:26.920 I'm not making a

00:45:27.900 prediction.

00:45:28.320 I'm just making an

00:45:28.880 observation with the

00:45:29.520 past.

00:45:30.060 But, and you've probably

00:45:33.500 seen this meme, Jesus is

00:45:36.240 still the most radical

00:45:37.120 word, right?

00:45:39.260 Christianity in America,

00:45:40.760 as opposed to

00:45:41.420 Christianity elsewhere, is

00:45:43.820 more about pointing the

00:45:45.940 finger at yourself, saying,

00:45:47.700 all right, you need to fix

00:45:49.240 certain things in your

00:45:49.960 life.

00:45:50.140 You're falling short of

00:45:51.120 the glory of God.

00:45:52.540 It's not, I'm so great, I

00:45:54.620 go to church.

00:45:56.440 Not in the more stricter

00:45:58.480 conservative churches.

00:46:00.280 It's about, you're falling

00:46:02.020 short, you need to improve.

00:46:04.320 And so, everyone who's

00:46:06.240 active in those churches is

00:46:07.780 on some kind of self-

00:46:09.280 improvement journey.

00:46:11.620 But the political issue for

00:46:14.320 people on those spiritual

00:46:15.500 journeys is they come to

00:46:18.000 rely on themselves.

00:46:19.000 themselves, and they do not

00:46:21.380 like dependence on the state

00:46:24.000 or on the school to shape

00:46:26.340 their souls.

00:46:28.000 And that puts them at odds

00:46:29.940 with the left, which has a

00:46:32.000 very different program for

00:46:33.880 shaping the views and the

00:46:35.760 values of ordinary citizens.

00:46:37.720 institutions.

00:46:38.720 And they think that the school

00:46:40.940 should impart values and

00:46:45.020 government programs should

00:46:46.820 create economic handcuffs,

00:46:48.900 making sure that you stick to

00:46:50.300 those values.

00:46:51.160 So when they complain about the

00:46:52.600 religious right, they're

00:46:54.020 complaining about people seeking

00:46:55.740 self-reliant lives, at least

00:46:58.320 spiritually, if not economically.

00:46:59.980 So you can make arguments on both

00:47:02.800 sides here, but the fact is that

00:47:04.760 this group, which you're calling

00:47:06.180 the religious right, wants to

00:47:07.320 break free and live according to

00:47:10.220 the principles they found in the

00:47:12.160 Bible.

00:47:13.140 And, you know, to use the phrase

00:47:15.460 from the prayer book, the clean,

00:47:18.100 upright, and sober life, right?

00:47:20.740 That's a threat.

00:47:21.820 Because you're ignoring the

00:47:24.840 materialism and the preference

00:47:27.900 over the now as opposed to the

00:47:29.700 later, right?

00:47:32.040 You're pushing a life of deferred

00:47:34.720 gratification, not instant

00:47:36.060 gratification.

00:47:37.440 That's part of it.

00:47:38.860 But the other part of it is the

00:47:41.220 religious worldview.

00:47:45.600 Naturally, and some people would

00:47:47.060 argue rightly, has a rigidity around

00:47:49.100 certain things, around when

00:47:51.700 life begins, let's say, around

00:47:54.040 what marriage means, around

00:47:56.180 other issues.

00:47:57.260 You know what I'm getting at,

00:47:58.440 right?

00:47:58.580 Of course, yeah.

00:47:59.120 And I think the concern for a lot

00:48:01.940 of people on the left is that

00:48:03.480 rather than desiring to be left

00:48:05.800 alone, some people on the

00:48:08.400 religious right would like to use

00:48:10.080 the power of the state to impose

00:48:12.520 their vision of those issues, which

00:48:14.300 comes from the Bible, on everybody

00:48:15.780 else.

00:48:17.000 Yes.

00:48:17.640 So among the religious right, there

00:48:19.520 is actually debate on this.

00:48:20.740 There are, it's not just a left

00:48:22.800 wing boogeyman.

00:48:23.620 There are people in what you would

00:48:25.840 call a religious right who

00:48:27.280 absolutely do, and both Catholic and

00:48:29.560 Protestant, who want to impose

00:48:31.400 religious values, right?

00:48:33.240 Just the fact that they think the

00:48:34.840 world would be a better place if we

00:48:36.680 shut down the strip clubs and only

00:48:38.840 fans didn't involve, you know,

00:48:41.340 teenage impressionable girls being

00:48:43.400 trafficked or exploited or whatever,

00:48:45.360 you know, maybe marijuana is not such a

00:48:47.860 great idea, all these, these bundle of

00:48:50.400 things.

00:48:53.040 But there is another group that I

00:48:55.300 think is more numerous on the

00:48:56.960 religious right that says, wait a

00:48:58.320 minute, if we politicize this

00:49:00.960 religious message, we destroy it.

00:49:04.740 Because the appeal of Christianity is that

00:49:10.460 it doesn't make education, income, racial,

00:49:16.400 cultural distinctions.

00:49:18.960 And everyone has to, in the traditional

00:49:22.380 Christian faith, has to go on their own

00:49:24.020 journey to find, you know, to manifest

00:49:28.960 Christ in their life, to discipline

00:49:31.380 themselves, to find, right?

00:49:33.300 And if you get into politics and you're

00:49:36.400 imposing your will on others, how do you

00:49:39.080 know, I mean, this is a serious question

00:49:41.480 that I've heard people among the religious

00:49:44.720 right ask themselves, how do you know

00:49:46.640 that you're actually imposing God's will

00:49:49.200 and not the devil's or your own, which is

00:49:51.900 functionally the same, right, in their

00:49:53.840 eschatology?

00:49:55.180 So, we do know that if you stick to

00:50:01.000 non-coercion, non-violence, the path is

00:50:04.840 open for conversion if people choose to

00:50:07.320 convert, and you are free to pursue your

00:50:10.020 spiritual journey.

00:50:12.280 And so these people caution those who want

00:50:14.440 to impose a theocracy.

00:50:16.560 The theocratic people, I think, are a very

00:50:18.780 small minority, and I cannot imagine them

00:50:21.340 winning any election in even the reddest of

00:50:24.800 red states.

00:50:25.520 I do not think they're an important

00:50:26.820 political force.

00:50:28.400 And I can't, and I could, I've been wrong

00:50:30.260 before, but I can't imagine that they are

00:50:35.340 the future of the Republican Party.

00:50:36.900 I don't think so.

00:50:38.360 But isn't J.D. Vance the future of the

00:50:40.380 Republican Party?

00:50:42.240 He seems to be.

00:50:43.100 He's Vice President of the United States.

00:50:44.260 Absolutely.

00:50:44.600 I think 2028 is probably a fight between

00:50:49.080 DeSantis and Vance, and that is a, to go back

00:50:55.060 to our four cultures, that is the Scottish

00:50:58.300 Borderlands transported Appalachia culture, which

00:51:01.500 is J.D. Vance to a T, and DeSantis, which is a

00:51:06.060 mixture of the Cavalier and the immigrant Italian

00:51:09.600 and Hispanic cultures, that is modern-day Florida.

00:51:12.540 And that's a vision of, two different visions of

00:51:15.680 where the Republican Party could go.

00:51:17.980 Because we're looking at Project 2025, and I know

00:51:21.360 Trump distanced himself and disavowed it, but he

00:51:24.460 appointed many people into his government who have

00:51:27.220 worked on it, who have worked on Project 25 or with

00:51:31.000 them, and we interviewed one of the main people behind

00:51:36.880 it, and he was saying to us that their ambition and one

00:51:42.440 of their goals is to take abortion to a three-month

00:51:45.500 term, and then eventually a six-week term.

00:51:49.000 So whilst I do accept your point that this is maybe not a

00:51:53.840 majority of Christians, it nevertheless represents a

00:51:57.700 sizable minority, many of whom are actually very powerful

00:52:01.600 politically.

00:52:03.200 They're powerful politically because they win elections.

00:52:06.640 And if you look at what has happened in every election

00:52:09.800 since the Roe v. Wade case was overturned at the Supreme

00:52:14.900 Court, those who wanted to restrict abortion lost those

00:52:20.080 elections, lost those referenda, and those who wanted a

00:52:24.300 wider aperture generally won, okay?

00:52:28.580 So politicians follow where they think the votes are going,

00:52:34.660 right?

00:52:35.080 So you can have a handful of influential people, but they

00:52:38.440 are surfing a wave of public opinion, and there is not a

00:52:42.620 great public desire to ban abortion.

00:52:46.040 That's why Trump felt completely safe saying he wants to do

00:52:48.880 nothing on abortion, and he did not take any criticism from the

00:52:53.820 right for that.

00:52:55.880 And as a practical matter, with the abortion pill delivered through

00:53:01.040 the internet now, you could shut down some abortion clinics, but

00:53:05.140 you can't stop the abortion pill.

00:53:10.040 So I think, look, this is an incredibly fraught and complex issue.

00:53:15.340 I don't think the answer is a single national abortion policy imposed from

00:53:21.580 Washington, and I think that is one thing that, across the Republican

00:53:26.400 Party spectrum, that they all agree.

00:53:28.480 They think it ought to be done at the state and local level.

00:53:31.140 And as a practical matter, I would not expect to see abortion banned in a

00:53:36.320 single state.

00:53:37.080 And my evidence for that is, you know, the Roe v. Wade's been

00:53:40.480 overturned for more than three years, four years, and no state, no county, no

00:53:46.620 city, no village as far as somewhere has banned abortion.

00:53:51.080 What's interesting to me as well, moving forward, is there is a very

00:53:54.640 significant now and very powerful non-religious, right?

00:53:57.660 The tech bros, too, are very powerful in the current administration.

00:54:02.200 How do you see those differences and distinctions playing themselves out?

00:54:06.620 Okay, so the tech bros, which were, and I hate the term, but we'll call

00:54:12.460 Silicon Valley, those people were largely in favor of the Democrats in 2016

00:54:17.640 and even in 2020.

00:54:19.760 Yes.

00:54:20.320 But I think what they've realized is that starting at the New Deal in the

00:54:25.560 1930s, we had a managerial revolution in the entire industrial world, and this

00:54:31.280 accelerated after World War II.

00:54:32.320 By that, I mean that people who were not owners, people who were not

00:54:37.100 accountable, ran things.

00:54:40.280 They ran culture, they ran business, they ran labor unions, and they ran

00:54:44.600 governments.

00:54:46.300 And gradually, in the 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, a lot of institutions returned

00:54:54.720 to health by becoming a lot more accountable, right?

00:54:58.060 Let me expand on that a little bit.

00:54:59.860 So there's an accountable and unaccountable world, and they're at war with each

00:55:04.040 other, right?

00:55:04.860 When I say accountable, I'm not talking about an income level.

00:55:08.700 I mean, is your pay tied to some specific result, right?

00:55:13.060 Are you getting a commission as a shoe salesman for selling shoes?

00:55:16.620 Are you being paid by the number of people who can actually pass a reading test

00:55:20.780 after you've taught them to read, right?

00:55:22.600 So is there a real-world result that you are paid on the basis of, or are you paid

00:55:28.980 simply for showing up, right?

00:55:33.380 And so in the accountable world, these are the people who are doing most of the

00:55:38.000 working and paying most of the taxes.

00:55:39.940 In the unaccountable world, you have the unemployed, you have retirees and pensioners,

00:55:45.420 you have people on various social support programs, students, graduate students, right?

00:55:53.000 And the unaccountable world largely votes left.

00:55:58.140 And the left-wing managerial revolution has been to insert layers to insulate people from

00:56:04.300 accountability.

00:56:06.780 And that has been, that has worked for them.

00:56:09.880 That's how they've built their institutions.

00:56:11.320 And now the accountable class, the people who live by results, have been just bedeviled

00:56:21.040 by regulations and taxes and cultural hatred and so on.

00:56:26.300 And they're sick of it, right?

00:56:28.120 Add to that, Silicon Valley says, well, hang on.

00:56:31.840 Why is the federal government the largest purchaser of fax machines on planet Earth?

00:56:36.340 They're still sending documents by fax machine and by mail, by post, right?

00:56:43.120 And then they have handwritten forms for things.

00:56:46.100 Like these things 20, 30 years ago in the private sector moved to online forms, right?

00:56:52.360 And back-end computers talking to each other.

00:56:55.720 I had dinner a few months ago with the former Secretary of Labor,

00:56:59.340 who said he fought a four-year battle in the first Trump administration to just move these

00:57:05.260 forms to an online form.

00:57:08.200 And I said, well, how were you doing it before?

00:57:10.060 He goes, well, fax machines.

00:57:11.040 But also when we had to send documents to the State Department, they would only accept

00:57:15.000 it by mail.

00:57:16.380 So they're printing these things out, putting a physical stamp on it, having a postal carrier

00:57:21.020 show up, carry it, you know, a few blocks across town.

00:57:24.920 The State Department would solve it.

00:57:26.420 This is why, like, work permits and immigration applications take so long.

00:57:30.800 The departments are literally mailing it back.

00:57:32.660 And by the way, the same document moved back and forth three or four times, right?

00:57:36.480 So Silicon Valley looks at all this and they say, okay, first of all, we have to expand the

00:57:42.500 accountability class and shrink the unaccountable class.

00:57:45.560 Second of all, there's tremendous opportunity to digitize government.

00:57:49.340 So when the truest thing that Musk said that no one seems to understand is, he says, we're

00:57:56.300 just tech support.

00:57:58.820 Yes.

00:57:59.460 If you look at the problem of administering the federal government, you say, well, how

00:58:03.300 would we drag that?

00:58:04.880 Forget about into 2025.

00:58:06.440 How would we drag it to 2005, right?

00:58:09.860 How would we digitize government, right?

00:58:11.980 So if it's Silicon Valley, obviously that produce, it's an enormous financial opportunity

00:58:17.880 for, not for Musk himself, but for others in that world.

00:58:23.700 But Musk himself is frustrated.

00:58:25.500 He has to get FAA permission, which is an agency meant to regulate airports and airlines

00:58:30.380 for rocket launches.

00:58:32.480 And he has to fax the form, right?

00:58:35.900 And it takes days or weeks for them to respond, right?

00:58:39.480 He's like, why is that?

00:58:42.360 That's crazy, right?

00:58:43.460 And they ask us for data.

00:58:44.580 Like, we could just simply give them a data room and they could have online, real-time

00:58:49.420 digital access to the very data they care about rather than sending us another letter.

00:58:54.780 So there's two things going on at once.

00:58:57.880 But the revolt of the accountable class, so last 30 years or so, we've made companies a lot

00:59:04.660 more accountable, right?

00:59:06.400 Not as accountable as Bernie Sanders would like, perhaps.

00:59:10.620 But I think customer service is far better in America than it is other parts of the industrial

00:59:16.560 world.

00:59:17.560 Yep.

00:59:18.320 Can confirm.

00:59:19.580 Yeah.

00:59:20.240 Right.

00:59:22.260 You know, I mean, at least the person who calls is going to pretend to care that you had a bad

00:59:26.700 time, right?

00:59:28.960 It's mostly a digital experience and it's a customizable digital experience, you know?

00:59:34.400 So you can tell them, you know, the chatbot, I want to be called Susie, they'll call you

00:59:40.580 Susie, right?

00:59:41.200 It's, right?

00:59:43.920 And there's just a frustration with the rigidity of government.

00:59:49.720 And then I think the aha moment, and Marc Andreessen has said this, the aha moment was, wait a

00:59:55.400 minute, in order to maintain your insulated, unaccountable class, you want to create cartels

01:00:02.700 and you want to create cartels in tech, pick winners and losers.

01:00:07.480 And that would be bad for the industry, but bad for the country.

01:00:11.400 And, you know, the old joke of when we left the keys in the moon rover, you know, the car

01:00:17.760 they drove around, the astronauts, because we're going back, why haven't we been back?

01:00:23.320 Right?

01:00:23.920 There's a great longing for technological progress and growth and things that make people feel

01:00:30.340 proud to be Americans.

01:00:31.720 And when I would, when I was living in Europe and people would criticize me for not liking

01:00:39.060 the metric system, they would say, well, it's not very scientific.

01:00:42.140 And I would just say, when you metric people land on the moon, let me know.

01:00:46.980 Right?

01:00:47.820 So it's this, it's a confluence of factors.

01:00:52.980 The idea that Musk is doing it to put money in his own pocket or that he has nothing better,

01:00:58.980 it's just ridiculous, but the very fear of the unaccountable class is accountability.

01:01:06.780 Right?

01:01:07.520 Tell me five things you did last week.

01:01:09.540 Why is that terrifying?

01:01:11.780 Because if you've lived an unaccountable life, to us, it's ordinary, right?

01:01:15.480 We would ask that question of ourselves, right?

01:01:17.860 I'm sure each of us has had a time at the end of the day, like, did I get enough done today?

01:01:22.220 Yeah.

01:01:23.100 But if you've lived this unaccountable existence where it doesn't matter whether you come into

01:01:28.860 the office, no one counts how many forms you, you know, how many stamps you approve or disapprove

01:01:34.240 of things, you're just in this government office, if you come in at all, then suddenly you're

01:01:41.920 going to have to live an accountable life.

01:01:43.440 That's terrifying.

01:01:44.900 So the anger you see, and yes, I understand it's sponsored, paid for by various left-wing

01:01:51.120 billionaires and trade unions and so on, the attacks on Tesla.

01:01:54.540 But if it weren't organized by those groups, it might happen spontaneously because the unaccountable

01:02:02.620 live in fear of accountability and it's terrifying.

01:02:06.820 Now, it's never as bad as they imagine, but that's what keeps them in place and to be knocked

01:02:12.840 out of place is terrifying.

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01:03:33.740 It's actually a very profound distinction you've made.

01:03:36.060 I'm glad you bring this up because to let people know a little bit of how the sausage

01:03:40.060 is made, we met you the other day and weren't able to record this interview, but we had

01:03:45.660 to move things around.

01:03:46.660 And as a result, we ended up with a day extra in DC and we had a choice of sitting around

01:03:53.120 doing nothing, you know, going for a walk, having a beer, whatever.

01:03:57.680 But because this is our business and because we have to like make things work, we, you know,

01:04:02.360 we kicked everybody's asses, kicked our own asses, got stuff done.

01:04:05.100 Right.

01:04:05.620 Right.

01:04:05.840 France has got ill, as you can see, uh, from all the effort, but like we scrambled around,

01:04:11.300 we got you, we got the equipment and that's how the real world works.

01:04:15.640 If we were working in an office, there is no chance of any of that happening because it's,

01:04:22.420 well, why would you make that extra?

01:04:24.320 Big companies can be just as unaccountable.

01:04:26.980 Absolutely.

01:04:27.400 Yeah.

01:04:27.580 There are plenty of jobs and I don't just mean HR.

01:04:30.120 There are plenty of jobs inside big companies where if you have no, you're not moving the

01:04:35.880 needle at all, no one would, might notice for years.

01:04:39.320 But that instinct exists within every human being.

01:04:41.540 I feel it within myself too.

01:04:42.960 It's like I could chill out here or I could actually get something valuable done.

01:04:46.180 And it's the incentive structure that makes you do the things that you need to do to succeed.

01:04:49.720 The growth of innovation in America has been this accountability.

01:04:54.920 Sure.

01:04:55.400 Right.

01:04:55.820 And the, the slow death of Europe has been that the unaccountable class has become dominant.

01:05:01.800 A hundred percent.

01:05:02.600 So it's really not about, you know, Brexit or EU, Euro skepticism.

01:05:08.440 It's really about how much of your life do you want dictated by a class of people who are not

01:05:13.800 accountable to you or even to themselves.

01:05:18.000 And how much money do you want to give them to you?

01:05:21.380 What I was asking though is, that's fascinating.

01:05:24.800 And I love that, that you broke that down.

01:05:26.560 It's really interesting is how the differences between these two groups within the right

01:05:31.720 are going to play out over time.

01:05:34.300 Because right now there's a new presidency, new administration.

01:05:39.680 Everyone's excited.

01:05:40.920 They're moving at a fast pace.

01:05:42.660 Things are getting done.

01:05:44.240 You know, Doge is cutting things left, right and center.

01:05:46.400 But we all know that over time, tensions that are inherent in, in a group tend to manifest

01:05:52.900 themselves more as setbacks occur, as time goes by, as there are power struggles, as all

01:05:58.960 sorts of things.

01:05:59.520 And so there is a very big philosophical chasm, I would put it to you, between those two parts,

01:06:05.240 the tech right and the, and the more religiously minded right.

01:06:08.080 How do you think that is going to play out?

01:06:11.040 I don't think that matters.

01:06:13.240 Really?

01:06:14.340 Because the structure of the parties is fundamentally different.

01:06:17.680 Okay.

01:06:18.120 So the left is a coalition party in all countries where there is a left, right?

01:06:22.980 And so that's why they talk about intersectionality, right?

01:06:26.420 So, but in reality, what does the steelworker who's a proud member of his union have in common

01:06:34.600 with the vegan woman studies professor and the fitness nut who, you know, has, is living

01:06:43.640 off the grid somewhere and, and, and, right?

01:06:46.780 You, you end up with this enormous coalition.

01:06:49.380 And so you need a leaders of that kind of a party need a skill like that Bill Clinton had

01:06:57.240 in abundance, right?

01:06:58.860 Which is the ability to synthesize, to make compromises, to hold the different parts that

01:07:06.140 don't naturally cohere together, right?

01:07:09.480 Nancy Pelosi was absolutely brilliant at this.

01:07:12.200 Well, probably one of the great politicians of the last 80, 90 years in the United States.

01:07:17.800 Nancy Pelosi, and I'm not a fan of her policies, but just her sheer skill and holding together

01:07:22.500 this coalition.

01:07:24.280 The Republican Party and the media always reports fights within the Republican Party as, oh my

01:07:29.800 gosh, the whole thing's going to fall apart because they assume it's a coalition party.

01:07:33.560 It is not.

01:07:34.700 It is a consensus party.

01:07:36.500 And in a consensus party, people fight until about 80% of them share a view.

01:07:43.260 And then the other 20% either go along or change their minds, right?

01:07:49.840 So the consensus, so this fights among factions is actually very healthy because that's what

01:07:56.000 moves the consensus around, right?

01:07:58.820 Inside the party.

01:08:00.100 But the, it is, and we know that this consensus model is working for the Republicans because

01:08:07.040 they're drawing in new people, right?

01:08:10.000 So the African-American vote went up for Trump, but not by a lot, but it went up statistically,

01:08:17.760 importantly.

01:08:19.360 The Asian vote was about flatter, went up slightly for Trump, but in key blue areas like San Francisco,

01:08:25.440 the Asian vote actually went up.

01:08:27.380 But the Hispanic vote changed dramatically.

01:08:31.740 Part of it is that a lot of Hispanic men and women, both, are in the accountable class,

01:08:37.640 right?

01:08:38.280 If you do not turn up for work and if your work is not seen as valuable, the kinds of

01:08:43.620 jobs that many of them have, you don't get paid.

01:08:48.200 So they resent the crime and the taxes and small business regulation because many of them

01:08:53.860 are small business owners as well.

01:08:56.120 And immigrants lower their wages.

01:08:58.960 They just increase competition for them.

01:09:01.060 So they shifted for Trump.

01:09:02.480 But the fact that this consensus party with its movements, constant movements, is drawing

01:09:09.300 people in.

01:09:10.480 It's not a rigid consensus where people are flooding out.

01:09:14.200 That could happen, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

01:09:18.760 Among the left, there are incredible splinters.

01:09:22.280 It's hard to believe that America's oldest political party, the Democratic Party, is actually

01:09:29.000 thinking about replacing Chuck Schumer, a man of considerable fundraising skill and legislative

01:09:35.060 skill, with AOC.

01:09:38.220 Like, a serious political party doesn't do this, right?

01:09:43.920 And she has never won a high turnout election in her own congressional district, right?

01:09:50.260 In her district, more people vote in the Democratic primary, generally speaking, than in the general

01:09:55.460 election.

01:09:56.820 So she's not drawing in new people.

01:10:00.620 And that is a suicidal move.

01:10:03.220 I mean, forget about the issues.

01:10:04.300 Yes, they've chosen badly on a lot of issues.

01:10:07.460 They've ticked a lot of issues in which maybe 10% of the people agree with them and 90% of

01:10:12.560 them do not, right?

01:10:15.500 Forget about the poor issue choice.

01:10:17.700 Because when you start taking out leaders and having purity tests and so on, that's death

01:10:24.020 to a coalition party.

01:10:26.180 And how does the left recover here?

01:10:30.340 I don't know, right?

01:10:33.100 I mean, I was asked by a serious Democratic donor that question a few months ago.

01:10:37.800 And my flip answer is, look, you have all these big cities.

01:10:42.200 Make them better than Dubai, right?

01:10:44.720 Make them cleaner, safer, more modern.

01:10:47.860 Make them attractive, right?

01:10:50.480 People will choose West Berlin over East Berlin.

01:10:53.540 Make them gleaming, right?

01:10:56.360 Whether they're producing jobs or attracting entrepreneurs and innovation, right?

01:11:00.600 And show that blue governance is a wonderful thing.

01:11:05.680 And, you know, people would be attracted.

01:11:08.160 Americans are attracted to success, right?

01:11:11.600 And that just got dismissed out of hand by the donor because he said, well, I understand

01:11:19.480 what you're saying, Rich, but, you know, how do we get the unions to go along?

01:11:25.420 Right?

01:11:25.900 How do we get this group to go on?

01:11:27.800 It's always the problems of coalition.

01:11:30.720 So they have to transform themselves into a party that cares more about its voters and

01:11:37.980 their lives and their outcomes, right?

01:11:40.540 And they used to do this supremely well.

01:11:42.540 They did this from, let's say, 1932 to 1966, just to pick two more or less random years,

01:11:49.480 right?

01:11:49.700 And you have to care more about the people who you want to support you than about the

01:11:59.180 different coalitions fighting for power, right?

01:12:03.120 Trump would absolutely cancel a defense contract with Boeing or Donald Douglas or whatever, a

01:12:09.220 big Raytheon, a big donor.

01:12:12.920 That would happen.

01:12:14.760 And in fact, that decision might be taken several layers down.

01:12:17.500 And it's not good for the country.

01:12:20.980 He would absolutely do it, right?

01:12:22.920 He's not captive, and certainly because he can't run again.

01:12:27.340 The next Republican might find it harder.

01:12:30.560 But the dynamics inside the Republican Party mean that these fights are just fights for readjusting,

01:12:38.200 not fights for dissolution.

01:12:39.460 One of the challenges the left faces is that the Republican Party have captured that old-school

01:12:46.480 left-wing economic policy of protecting workers' rights and tariffs.

01:12:50.640 And that, I always thought, was the main weapon the left have once it gets over its identity

01:12:57.360 politics madness.

01:12:58.840 But the fact that the Republican Party have taken that away from them, and I'm looking at

01:13:05.580 the left and I'm going, what else have you got?

01:13:07.040 Right, and also, immigration control was a left-wing issue for decades, that it would

01:13:13.980 destroy the lives of working people.

01:13:16.260 Not that there was a hatred of foreigners, it's just that when you make people compete

01:13:20.020 for entry jobs and trade jobs, you're making their lives harder, not better, right?

01:13:25.960 You know, I don't understand how they would throw away a winning hand on these issues, except

01:13:36.680 that they're incredibly dominated by the thoughts of the campus.

01:13:40.900 Yes.

01:13:41.320 And the campus is a Disneyland of intellectuals, right?

01:13:44.960 It's unrealistic.

01:13:46.480 It's run by the faculty have enormous power over the administration of this campus life

01:13:52.760 and over the students.

01:13:54.640 And there's no accountability for whether their ideas work or not, or very little accountability.

01:14:02.720 And that is where the, that drives the intellectual life of the Democratic Party.

01:14:07.580 But there aren't enough of them, right?

01:14:10.780 Even if every person who went to college voted for the Democrats, three-quarters of America

01:14:18.280 does not have a four-year college degree.

01:14:20.860 Two-thirds of America doesn't have a college degree of any kind or, you know, so there's no

01:14:26.340 majority there, right?

01:14:27.880 You have to look at the views and values of the big parts of the country, right, of the

01:14:36.040 big parts of the population.

01:14:37.980 And another thing that's missing, and the Democrats need to bring this back, this was a big word

01:14:42.280 in the civil rights era, dignity.

01:14:45.420 You have to be a party, and this applies to both parties, but especially them right now,

01:14:50.640 the dignity and worth of each individual.

01:14:53.340 You have to not dismiss people as deplorables or, you know, anything like that.

01:15:01.980 You have to start to have true sympathy for the people that you're trying to attract.

01:15:08.200 When you say all men are trash, you're inviting men not to vote for you.

01:15:13.820 That's a large proportion of the electorate, right?

01:15:16.760 Right?

01:15:17.200 And then you keep cutting more and more pieces out.

01:15:19.900 You're not left with an electoral majority, except maybe in campus towns.

01:15:27.380 I always find it really interesting, the Democrats' attitude to black voters in particular, because

01:15:33.480 I wouldn't use the word racist, but it's certainly paternalistic, isn't it?

01:15:38.800 It is.

01:15:39.780 It's an idea that black people cannot survive without them, but their view of black people

01:15:48.260 is, I mean, I'm talking about particular Democratic politicians with whom I've had

01:15:54.120 longer conversations, is really trapped in the past, right?

01:15:59.680 I mean, there is a great deal of interracial marriage in the United States, more than ever

01:16:06.360 before, right?

01:16:07.240 Not just black, white, but Asian, black, Hispanic, black.

01:16:12.440 I mean, a lot of races, I mean, the marriage market is wide open, probably for the first time

01:16:19.720 in our history.

01:16:20.180 And it's unthinkable that it would ever go back.

01:16:25.440 So when you're talking to what you think is a black audience, some of those children

01:16:31.540 will have mothers or fathers who are not black.

01:16:35.080 So the racial solidarity argument is a lot more complicated.

01:16:39.520 And there are many, I mean, one of the businesses that I own supplied news to African-American

01:16:49.700 newspapers across the United States.

01:16:51.640 And we pointedly did stories of entrepreneurial success, of which there are many, many examples.

01:16:57.620 Somebody born to a middle-class family or born of the projects, you know, makes it, and

01:17:02.680 just fantastic stories.

01:17:04.840 And we got letters from the publishers of those black papers thanking us.

01:17:11.080 And this one woman writes to me, I think she owned the Philadelphia Tribune, which is a

01:17:15.260 black newspaper.

01:17:16.980 She says, thank you for covering the 99% instead of the 1%.

01:17:20.800 In other words, most of us are not living in projects.

01:17:24.640 Most of us are not criminals, right?

01:17:26.860 So the reality of black American life, it's not 1965 anymore.

01:17:31.440 It's just not.

01:17:32.340 And if a Democratic Party insists on seeing them that way, they will suddenly realize that,

01:17:38.600 oh, you're talking to my grandfather, not me.

01:17:41.820 Richard, I feel like we've just tapped a tiny, tiny percentage of your wisdom and knowledge.

01:17:48.080 So I'm sure, if you're willing, we'll be delighted to have you back many times to talk

01:17:52.540 about all sorts of different things.

01:17:54.380 It's been great to have you on.

01:17:56.060 Before we go to Substack, where we ask you questions from our supporters, what's the one

01:18:00.080 thing that we're not talking about that we should be?

01:18:02.920 I think I should mention David Hackett Fisher's book, Albion's Seed, which is where a lot

01:18:09.360 of this research, and he's the sort of, he publishes his book in 1989.

01:18:13.620 It's where a lot of this thinking about the different regions, what he calls the folkways

01:18:18.120 of America come from.

01:18:19.960 I mean, he's a very careful scholar.

01:18:22.760 He won the Pulitzer Prize for a different book.

01:18:25.840 And he is, I assume, having read his work, center left, but is very insightful.

01:18:31.620 So if any of your viewers want to go deeper, I would recommend David Hackett Fisher's book,

01:18:36.380 Albion's Seed, or frankly, anything by that author.

01:18:38.800 Or another book by a Yale scholar called Seeing Like a State, which is a whole other conversation.

01:18:45.160 Well, we'll have that conversation hopefully at some point.

01:18:47.620 Head on over to Substack.

01:18:48.600 We'll see you there with your questions.

01:18:50.040 How will traditional newspapers survive with such big payrolls and seemingly not enough

01:18:56.280 to offer above the new media to keep advertisers paying?

01:18:59.240 Will they all end up with rich benefactors effectively bankrolling them for fun or propaganda?

01:19:04.120 A claims program for harmed Canadians has begun as a result of a landmark tobacco settlement.

01:19:26.840 If you smoked regularly before November 20, 1998, and were diagnosed with lung cancer,

01:19:33.400 throat cancer, emphysema, or COPD, you may qualify for a significant payment.

01:19:40.220 To learn more, call 888-482-5852 or go to tobaccoclaimscanada.ca.

TRIGGERnometry - May 25, 2025

The Best Breakdown of America You’ve Never Heard - Richard Miniter

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