TRIGGERnometry - The Case for Abortion

00:00:00.000 Having run an abortion service for 17 years,

00:00:06.560 there are very, very few women who will come back

00:00:10.080 and basically say, I really wish I hadn't done that.

00:00:14.260 The number of women who contact us and say,

00:00:18.220 thank you for enabling me to put my life back on track is huge.

00:00:30.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:35.620 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:37.180 I'm Constantine Kisson.

00:00:38.460 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations

00:00:42.100 with fascinating people.

00:00:44.260 Our brilliant guest today is a former chief executive

00:00:47.260 of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, Anne Faraday.

00:00:50.880 The problem we have with this episode is we lost the footage we had

00:00:54.800 from the main camera.

00:00:55.860 We've already fired our producer for the hundredth time.

00:00:58.740 Hasn't helped.

00:00:59.340 So in this episode, everything is as normal.

00:01:02.660 The only thing is you won't see us front on,

00:01:04.900 which I'm sure will be a relief.

00:01:08.220 Anne Faraday, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:10.280 Thank you very much for having me.

00:01:11.620 It's great to have you on.

00:01:12.940 You know that we interviewed Dr. Callum Miller recently,

00:01:16.020 who has a very different position to you on abortion.

00:01:19.080 I think it's fair to say.

00:01:20.240 I think it's fair to say he does.

00:01:23.700 And we had a long discussion where we were kind of probing

00:01:26.660 some of his arguments.

00:01:28.040 And at the end of it, in fact, at the beginning,

00:01:29.960 I said, this is our first foray into this.

00:01:31.900 We're going to get someone on who has a different view.

00:01:34.240 And at the end of it, he actually said, well,

00:01:35.900 I can recommend you some people who disagree with me vehemently,

00:01:39.480 but who are very good.

00:01:40.920 And you were right at the top of that list.

00:01:43.080 So welcome to the show.

00:01:44.900 Thank you very much indeed.

00:01:46.280 Great to have you on.

00:01:47.040 Tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are,

00:01:49.340 what has been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:01:52.580 Oh, my God.

00:01:53.780 Right.

00:01:54.160 So this is going to be a very short,

00:01:56.020 very short account of who I am and where I am.

00:02:00.900 So I'm actually a journalist way back in the day

00:02:06.380 who got very interested in women's reproductive health

00:02:14.000 through doing medical writing.

00:02:17.660 Ended up working for the Family Planning Association,

00:02:21.340 running their press office,

00:02:23.960 doing parliamentary advocacy work around abortion

00:02:27.260 right the way back in the early 90s.

00:02:30.460 It's probably about before you guys were born.

00:02:33.880 When actually abortion was...

00:02:35.800 She's very charitable.

00:02:36.700 Yeah, she is.

00:02:37.240 No, no, no.

00:02:37.840 But, you know, abortion was way more controversial than it is now.

00:02:42.700 And at that time, the campaigning was largely about,

00:02:49.040 a lot of it was about funding in the NHS

00:02:51.080 because about half of women had to pay for their own procedure

00:02:56.320 because it wasn't really seen as something

00:03:00.000 that women should be able to get on the NHS.

00:03:02.360 And I went from there to running what was the, turned out,

00:03:09.000 well, ended up being the largest abortion provider in Britain

00:03:14.680 with a good advocacy department to make sure the politicians

00:03:20.580 and the public understood why women needed abortions.

00:03:24.860 And I always used to describe it as the best job in the world,

00:03:29.700 but I always decided that I would finish work when I got to 60.

00:03:35.220 So I'm now focusing on writing.

00:03:38.860 I've gone back and studied philosophy at university.

00:03:42.300 I'm doing a lot of dog walking and some talking to guys like you.

00:03:47.620 Yeah.

00:03:47.700 Well, it's a pleasure to have you on.

00:03:49.700 So let's get straight into it.

00:03:52.640 The, I pushed back on Callum quite a bit,

00:03:55.740 but I also agreed with quite a lot of what he said, I think.

00:03:59.780 His, Callum's main argument from memory was essentially that

00:04:03.280 our job as people is to protect the most vulnerable people in society

00:04:07.460 and unborn children are that.

00:04:09.800 That is a life and taking it is immoral and wrong.

00:04:14.200 What say you to that?

00:04:15.280 Well, funnily enough,

00:04:18.900 there are a lot of areas that Callum and I would agree on.

00:04:23.900 And I do think that abortion is taking a life of sorts.

00:04:31.900 But the one thing that I think is profoundly immoral

00:04:34.680 is forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy

00:04:41.680 and have a child when she really does not want to do that.

00:04:47.800 And I also think it's profoundly immoral to force a woman to have an abortion

00:04:52.080 if she wants to have a child.

00:04:54.960 And I think that these are the whole thing about how you deal with your pregnancy

00:05:01.540 and what kind of family you have is something that is deeply,

00:05:09.660 it's a deeply intimate moral consideration

00:05:13.520 that should be made by the person who is going to live the life of responsibility for it.

00:05:21.160 And you can have an opinion on it, I can have an opinion on it,

00:05:24.360 Callum can have an opinion on it.

00:05:26.280 But at the end of the day, it is the woman who is pregnant

00:05:29.860 who is going to look at herself every day in the mirror

00:05:36.340 knowing the decision she made about that pregnancy.

00:05:39.160 And I think that she should be responsible for it.

00:05:44.640 And to do that, she has to be able to choose.

00:05:48.940 Why is abortion special, Anne?

00:05:50.620 Because, you know, based on what you've said,

00:05:53.560 to go with the logic of your own argument,

00:05:56.180 if abortion is killing,

00:05:58.300 in what other area would we allow people to make a decision for themselves

00:06:03.260 that allows them to kill someone else for their own benefit?

00:06:06.480 However important that benefit is.

00:06:08.800 Yeah, and there are no other areas in which we would do that,

00:06:15.600 which is why when people say,

00:06:19.520 oh, women can have abortions just because it's inconvenient to have a child,

00:06:27.960 are completely wrong.

00:06:28.900 I mean, we wouldn't allow people to bump off their parents, would they?

00:06:33.000 Because it's inconvenient to be caring for your elderly parents.

00:06:38.800 But pregnancy is utterly different.

00:06:41.380 You know, when a woman is pregnant,

00:06:45.300 the life that we're talking about here is actually growing inside her.

00:06:51.840 It's something that's going on within her actual body.

00:06:55.920 No one else can intervene to affect that life without interfering or intervening in her life.

00:07:06.440 Once she's given birth, that's obviously entirely different.

00:07:11.180 Teams of social workers and nurses and whatever can be, you know, doing stuff for that baby.

00:07:22.200 But up until that moment, it, you know, she is the person who's affected.

00:07:28.820 And I think it, it's curious that we lose track of that.

00:07:35.760 We kind of lose sight of it.

00:07:37.100 So if you think about it, people will say, oh, well, you know, surely it's okay to insist

00:07:49.080 that a woman should go on with the pregnancy, at least until the child's born,

00:07:54.960 because it's a human life.

00:07:56.760 But, you know, you wouldn't say to, you wouldn't say to me, you have to give your kidney to keep

00:08:09.620 somebody alive, or you have to make a blood donation to keep another person alive.

00:08:17.100 Because that way, you know, forcing people to do things with their own bodies for other people,

00:08:24.540 I think that really is the road to hell.

00:08:27.860 You know, these things are seen as being voluntary.

00:08:30.780 And I think however much it bothers us, I think we have to see abortion as being the choice

00:08:38.380 of the person who's living the life.

00:08:42.000 You know, we talk about, we talk about when does life begin or become morally significant

00:08:50.260 in the womb.

00:08:53.080 But you have to remember that at no point does a woman become morally less significant

00:09:00.900 or morally less of a person because she's pregnant.

00:09:04.560 So why would we take away her rights to deal with her own body in a way that we wouldn't do beforehand?

00:09:12.380 That's, you know, that's the way that I kind of reckon it.

00:09:17.140 And that doesn't mean, you know, it doesn't mean that I have got some great love of abortion

00:09:30.520 as a procedure.

00:09:31.820 Actually, I've got a great, a great presumption in favour of life.

00:09:36.260 I think having a child is wonderful, but I've got a great love of people's individual freedom.

00:09:42.780 And I think that, you know, having a child is something that we have to give people freedom

00:09:53.000 to decide about.

00:09:55.560 I couldn't agree with you more on the liberty about your own body.

00:09:59.380 And just touching back on COVID, that argument became deeply unfashionable when we were talking

00:10:04.980 about mandatory vaccinations.

00:10:06.480 Well, it is something that is deeply unfashionable.

00:10:12.900 In fact, one of, but it's also, it's particularly unfashionable when it comes to this, because

00:10:20.080 it amazes me that, you know, you have organisations like the Alliance for Democracy and Freedom and

00:10:28.140 so on, who are absolutely fantastic on a whole load of freedom and democracy issues.

00:10:36.680 But when it comes to this freedom of a woman to decide about her own body, suddenly all of

00:10:43.720 that goes a bit out of the window.

00:10:45.020 And I think, or the other thing that happens is that people think that abortion is some kind

00:10:55.920 of an identity issue.

00:10:57.980 It's like a feminist issue that is about how women define who they are.

00:11:07.840 And I don't think that that's right at all.

00:11:11.440 And I think that, you know, nobody wants to identify as a woman who has had an abortion.

00:11:22.940 You don't support a woman's right.

00:11:26.240 You don't, you don't exercise your right to abortion.

00:11:30.320 Let's put it like this.

00:11:30.980 You don't exercise that right, like you exercise your right to vote.

00:11:34.640 You know, oh, I'm a woman.

00:11:36.160 Abortion's legal.

00:11:37.060 I think I'll have one of those.

00:11:38.300 That's not, you know, that is never the way it works.

00:11:41.760 On an individual level, abortion is the solution to a particular problem.

00:11:47.960 You had sex, you got pregnant, you really do not want to have a baby.

00:11:53.500 But, you know, it's got such a kind of political ramifications, moral ramifications for other

00:12:02.440 people that the whole thing becomes, you know, a real mess.

00:12:05.580 And my sense is, you know, can we please leave people to make these deeply intimate decisions

00:12:13.320 for themselves and let them take the responsibility for it?

00:12:18.100 Because ultimately it's, it's her body.

00:12:22.720 And we live in a society that generally now recognises that people should do that.

00:12:30.300 But hang on a second.

00:12:32.300 So on the whole, I agree with the argument, but shouldn't there be limits around when

00:12:37.620 a woman should be able to get abortion?

00:12:39.300 She could be able to get an abortion because, for instance, eight months in, I mean, a baby,

00:12:43.520 most babies can live outside of the womb eight months in.

00:12:47.760 Should that be allowed?

00:12:48.820 Okay, well, so this is one of the things that used to really do my head in, actually, when

00:12:59.900 I was running BPAS, because we have a 24-week time limit.

00:13:07.960 And I think in lots of ways, we could probably say that it's not unreasonable.

00:13:18.780 You know, 24 weeks is six months.

00:13:23.000 We can accept that by then, frankly, very, very, very few women would be contemplating having

00:13:33.740 an abortion, because by that time you can feel fetal movement.

00:13:39.940 You're generally, you know, visibly pregnant.

00:13:43.740 In this country, it's quite easy to get an abortion in early pregnancy.

00:13:51.140 What is a terrible thing, I believe, is when you have that guillotine of dates.

00:14:06.040 And so, and believe me, this is a seriously practical problem where there will be all kinds

00:14:12.500 of reasons why a woman will present late in pregnancy.

00:14:16.960 And sometimes it's got to do with the fact that a wanted pregnancy has become an unwanted

00:14:24.160 pregnancy.

00:14:26.400 Maybe it's because her circumstances have changed.

00:14:32.760 Maybe her relationship has broken down.

00:14:38.280 You know, there are a whole load of things that can go on.

00:14:40.780 Pregnancy always happens within the context of a woman's life.

00:14:43.940 But it seems to me utterly insane that an abortion that is perfectly legal on the Thursday, when

00:14:54.960 she is 23 weeks and six days pregnant, is utterly illegal on the Friday.

00:15:03.900 So, say the doctor's sick.

00:15:09.200 Say something happens, like there's a train strike and she can't get to the clinic.

00:15:15.820 If you've got that absolute guillotine of a time limit, it's not like, you know, it's not like a

00:15:23.580 speeding limit where, oh, you can go a little bit beyond it.

00:15:28.540 It's literally the case that one minute past midnight, a pregnancy that was legal now isn't.

00:15:36.540 And that to me is mind-numbingly stupid.

00:15:40.980 And it's very harsh for women who are on that cusp.

00:15:47.360 And then when it comes to the very late abortions, there's ones that I think make everybody draw in a

00:15:55.620 deep breath, you know, it's when you hear of women, and this can really only happen for

00:16:02.240 severe fetal anomaly, and you hear of these very, very late cases.

00:16:07.440 And typically, that will have been a managed situation between a woman and her doctor.

00:16:19.440 And very often, there's very late ones, when the baby would be born with some absolutely

00:16:27.860 crippling anomaly that means that it couldn't be kept alive after birth.

00:16:34.600 And the woman has said to her medical team that she really wants to carry the pregnancy as long as

00:16:42.000 possible, out of love for that unborn child.

00:16:46.600 So it's not someone deciding, you know what, I actually don't feel like.

00:16:49.640 Yeah, yeah, sure.

00:16:50.760 But can we explore a few more arguments that I found persuasive with Callum?

00:16:57.920 So it's interesting that we agree that it's killing.

00:17:00.640 And so we can maybe come back to that part of the conversation.

00:17:03.780 But the other thing that he explained was that quite often, and look, my wife is currently

00:17:08.840 eight months pregnant.

00:17:10.040 Yes.

00:17:10.300 Right?

00:17:10.920 Okay.

00:17:11.300 So you know exactly what it's like then to be eight months pregnant.

00:17:15.940 And one of the things...

00:17:17.540 I mean, not exactly.

00:17:18.520 Well, no, not exactly.

00:17:20.020 I know exactly what she's going through.

00:17:22.040 Even if you tell me you're a pregnant woman, I'm not going to believe you on that one.

00:17:25.980 Right, right, exactly.

00:17:27.300 Well, you're very transphobic.

00:17:29.040 But look, so one of the things that I've observed is that, and my wife would tell you

00:17:35.580 this herself, is that she's gone through various stages, not only physically, but also emotionally

00:17:40.940 and mentally and psychologically.

00:17:42.600 And sometimes she's very, very calm.

00:17:45.260 And other times she's a bit more emotional and a bit all over the place.

00:17:49.320 And this is the process that you go through.

00:17:50.800 And one of the points that Callum made when we interviewed him was that if you look at

00:17:55.600 the statistics of how women feel if they've had an abortion versus carrying the baby, even

00:18:01.020 if they were forced to carry the baby through, is that the statistics show, Callum says, that

00:18:07.520 actually the outcomes are more positive for women who carry the baby through than the women

00:18:12.720 who have an abortion.

00:18:14.640 Right?

00:18:15.100 Yeah.

00:18:15.280 So in my point being that we don't always necessarily know what the right decision is

00:18:20.320 in advance, but the evidence does seem to show that women seem to benefit.

00:18:25.140 They're more likely to benefit.

00:18:27.140 I mean, these are terrible words.

00:18:28.640 I'm getting myself into awful trouble here.

00:18:30.760 Because it's a really difficult argument.

00:18:33.380 The outcomes are better, statistically speaking, for women who carry the pregnancy through, even

00:18:37.900 if they didn't want to, versus the women who have an abortion.

00:18:40.840 That's what he argues.

00:18:41.780 Yeah, but where do you go?

00:18:42.880 I mean, that is a kind of, I think, personally, a slightly wacky way of looking at it.

00:18:52.940 Because once you get into these studies of better outcomes, you end up going all over

00:19:00.440 the place.

00:19:00.780 So, you know, I can tell you that the outcomes of pregnancies that are conceived to women

00:19:09.600 in their early 20s are better than the outcomes of pregnancies that are conceived by women

00:19:18.960 at later ages and so on.

00:19:22.900 We wouldn't go around saying, oh, it's a really good idea for everybody to be getting pregnant

00:19:27.920 when they're in their early 20s.

00:19:29.800 And we shouldn't be letting them get pregnant in later years because the outcomes are better.

00:19:38.000 That really is the road to a very eugenic society where you're basically organising people's behaviour

00:19:45.260 on the thing of outcomes.

00:19:48.140 And the problem is, is that these studies, it's very difficult to get comparable groups.

00:19:56.300 And I think that it ultimately comes down to allowing people to make the decision that they think is the

00:20:12.320 right decision for them at the time, even though sometimes we might look back and we might think

00:20:22.080 that we would have made a different decision with hindsight.

00:20:25.760 I mean, we do that with all kinds of things that we do in our lives.

00:20:29.380 We do that with the people we marry or have children with and so on.

00:20:34.380 Seemed like a good idea at the time.

00:20:36.060 I'm not very sure it's the right thing to do.

00:20:39.140 Looking back on what we would have done.

00:20:41.960 Looking back on it.

00:20:43.820 Frank's my husband, by the way.

00:20:46.660 You know, it's like looking back on things.

00:20:49.060 We're not immune to it.

00:20:50.740 Now, what I can say as a former abortion provider is that, you know,

00:20:59.720 and I know that people who are very against abortion tend to demonise us

00:21:06.840 and don't entirely believe us when we say this.

00:21:10.240 But the last thing that you want is to end a pregnancy and for someone to regret it.

00:21:20.380 You know, you really do not want that to happen.

00:21:23.320 So there's a massive amount of work that goes on to ensure that women,

00:21:31.360 particularly with these later procedures,

00:21:34.100 are really in a space where they have considered all of the various options

00:21:39.780 and they're not making a snap decision on it.

00:21:42.120 Because you do not want to be the doctor

00:21:44.300 who is being hauled up in front of the GMC

00:21:49.320 and accused of not properly ensuring that women have consented

00:21:54.940 and been counselled and so on.

00:21:56.800 And more to the point, you're a decent human being

00:22:00.540 and you don't want someone to be in a situation like that.

00:22:04.940 So I think that, you know, what I would say to Callum

00:22:09.680 is you can't live people's lives for them.

00:22:13.060 You have to treat women like the adults they are.

00:22:19.180 You have to make sure that they have weighed up all of the options

00:22:24.180 and that they're not making a snap decision.

00:22:29.260 And then you have to make, you have to let them decide.

00:22:32.620 It's a good point.

00:22:33.860 And when I said I'm persuaded by his argument,

00:22:36.760 I was not suggesting that that necessarily means

00:22:39.100 we should outlaw all abortions based on the fact that the outcomes are better.

00:22:42.340 But is that something that a woman might be told that,

00:22:47.720 you know, look, you're considering an abortion.

00:22:49.720 Here is the evidence about how women feel

00:22:52.780 as a result of having an abortion versus carrying the child through.

00:22:57.280 I don't think that you would.

00:22:58.420 Well, I don't know.

00:23:00.580 Because that wouldn't that be relevant to tell them?

00:23:02.520 Well, I tell you, so I think, right,

00:23:07.900 and I know that this is the way that things go on in,

00:23:14.960 certainly in BPAS clinics,

00:23:17.800 is that the conversation that you will have with somebody,

00:23:22.800 that the counsellors will have with someone,

00:23:24.740 is very nuanced.

00:23:26.880 And when, for example, as you quite often do,

00:23:30.300 you get a younger woman in who's basically saying,

00:23:35.180 actually, I really want to have this baby,

00:23:37.380 but my mum will kill me.

00:23:39.840 You're saying, actually, she probably won't, you know.

00:23:43.660 And let's think about how you might have that discussion with her.

00:23:46.120 Or the person who's saying, you know,

00:23:50.860 I really want to have this baby,

00:23:53.080 I can't cope with this morning sickness anymore.

00:23:56.580 I can't cope with da-da-da-da-da.

00:23:58.780 You're talking to them about how they can cope with it.

00:24:02.580 And I think that where there's sometimes an imbalance

00:24:08.920 in the sort of issues is that if you take, like, the other side,

00:24:17.460 it's not really a two-sided argument.

00:24:21.960 There are some doctors who are absolutely against abortion.

00:24:28.200 And then there are those of us who are providing services

00:24:32.660 who, it's not like you're for abortion.

00:24:36.880 It's the, you want women to make the right choice.

00:24:39.700 And where I really respect Callum

00:24:41.840 is that I think that Callum does really believe

00:24:47.380 that abortion is a bad thing for women.

00:24:51.980 What I would say is that having run an abortion service

00:24:57.680 for 17 years, there are very, very few women

00:25:03.060 who will come back and basically say,

00:25:06.500 I really wish I hadn't done that.

00:25:09.120 The number of women who contact us and say,

00:25:12.700 thank you for enabling me to put my life back on track is huge.

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00:26:33.060 If you think about the way that the statistics work,

00:26:36.740 I hate talking statistics because I'm rubbish at remembering numbers

00:26:41.220 and so on, to be honest.

00:26:42.240 Do not ask me tough statistical questions.

00:26:46.200 But if you think that something like one in three women in Britain

00:26:50.900 will have terminated a pregnancy at some time during their life.

00:26:56.260 One in three?

00:26:57.020 Yeah.

00:26:57.380 Wow.

00:26:57.640 Yeah.

00:26:59.280 I know.

00:27:00.120 I mean, it's true.

00:27:02.180 One in three women will have terminated a pregnancy

00:27:05.220 at some time during their life.

00:27:08.520 The reason why that happens, by the way,

00:27:10.260 is because contraception,

00:27:13.080 which looks very effective on paper and in studies,

00:27:19.140 generally isn't as effective as you think it will be in real life.

00:27:24.800 So a lot of women who are on the pill

00:27:29.900 or couples using condoms end up with unexpected pregnancies

00:27:36.680 and abortion is often seen as a, you know,

00:27:42.220 it's like you can call it shutting the gate after the horse is bolted,

00:27:46.820 but fortunately with pregnancy,

00:27:49.380 we're not talking about bolting horses

00:27:51.560 and you can put right something that you think is wrong.

00:27:56.340 But, you know, there are not a,

00:28:03.080 it is not the case that there are hundreds of thousands of women

00:28:08.480 who are mentally damaged as a result of making that decision.

00:28:12.480 I think some women may regret it as we regret a whole load of things,

00:28:18.520 but mainly it's something that people can put aside

00:28:23.120 and then go on and have children at a time that they want to.

00:28:28.940 You know, half of the women who come to be passed are already mothers.

00:28:33.020 You know, they've already had children.

00:28:34.580 Many of the other women that we see will go on and have children.

00:28:40.680 It's just at that time, it's a problem.

00:28:44.860 Do you think that we trivialise the issue of abortion?

00:28:48.300 I think it's banded around.

00:28:52.920 Um, I think that, um, we fail to appreciate

00:29:03.700 how women, when they face that positive pregnancy test,

00:29:13.660 have to weigh up some, you know,

00:29:18.680 like a whole load of stuff that is going on in their life.

00:29:25.140 It's like at that point,

00:29:27.200 it really is like you're a fork in the road.

00:29:32.860 And if you decide to terminate the pregnancy,

00:29:37.500 then things go on one track.

00:29:41.160 If you decide to have the baby,

00:29:45.420 your life goes on another track.

00:29:47.280 And often for women, it's very nuanced.

00:29:53.200 And I'd be the first person to admit

00:29:55.960 that before I became involved in providing abortion services,

00:30:03.240 I thought it was a much more binary,

00:30:06.060 much more simple decision.

00:30:08.000 I thought it was much more women kind of know, you know,

00:30:12.120 if they're going to have an abortion

00:30:13.880 or if they want to have a baby,

00:30:16.360 it's pretty clear one way or the other.

00:30:19.320 And I think now I'd say that's not so much.

00:30:23.380 I think that for most women,

00:30:26.180 there's some gray in there.

00:30:29.600 And what a lot of women will say is,

00:30:34.100 if circumstances were different,

00:30:36.040 I have the baby now,

00:30:39.660 sometimes that means that people will say,

00:30:45.720 well, what we should do is work on what,

00:30:48.440 you know, making better resources for women

00:30:51.320 to be able to continue those pregnancies.

00:30:54.320 And I'm a massive believer in that.

00:30:56.580 But often, the things that women want to change

00:31:01.720 are things that you can't change.

00:31:04.660 It's like, I would have the baby if I wasn't 16.

00:31:09.860 I would have the baby if my partner wanted to have the baby.

00:31:15.140 But how do you change those things?

00:31:21.380 You really can't.

00:31:23.000 And so, again, it comes back to weighing it all up,

00:31:29.540 all things considered,

00:31:31.580 who is going to be in the best position

00:31:34.740 to make that decision?

00:31:38.400 And it, you know, it has got to be her.

00:31:43.100 But is it, is it her though?

00:31:45.380 See, this is like,

00:31:46.720 I'm going to sound really illiberal here.

00:31:48.460 No, go on.

00:31:48.940 But from, I was born when my mother had been 18 for four days.

00:31:54.040 Yeah.

00:31:55.340 And I wouldn't say I've worked out perfectly,

00:31:57.660 but I've worked out all right.

00:31:58.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:59.920 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:32:01.140 Now, fortunately, my mother,

00:32:04.600 my parents made the decision that they made,

00:32:06.580 at least fortunately for me,

00:32:07.460 maybe not for the world,

00:32:08.420 but for me at least, right?

00:32:09.940 Yeah.

00:32:10.900 But is an 18-year-old really the best person

00:32:15.060 to make that decision?

00:32:16.400 Like, from a right point of view,

00:32:18.820 I agree with you completely.

00:32:19.900 Every human being has a right

00:32:21.060 to make the decision for themselves

00:32:22.240 and make their own mistakes

00:32:23.340 and pay the price of that.

00:32:25.000 Everybody does.

00:32:25.980 But when you're talking about something

00:32:27.700 that involves killing another being,

00:32:30.260 and we've talked about why that's different.

00:32:32.580 I hear you at least.

00:32:33.820 I'm not sure I agree, but I hear you.

00:32:35.180 Yeah.

00:32:36.300 Is a 17-year-old or a 16-year-old

00:32:39.880 or an 18-year-old really the best person

00:32:43.220 to make that decision?

00:32:44.280 Really?

00:32:45.320 I genuinely really think they are.

00:32:49.880 You know, I know, you know,

00:32:54.900 I've got a good friend who is a very young mum

00:33:02.180 and the dad is very young as well.

00:33:05.740 They're both under 18.

00:33:08.180 Right, but we don't let them vote.

00:33:09.560 We don't let them drink.

00:33:10.560 And yet they can kill another being?

00:33:12.780 Is that what you're telling me?

00:33:14.000 Or put it another way, right?

00:33:15.780 She was able to decide what she felt was going to be the best thing,

00:33:27.720 both for her and for a child that she would give birth to.

00:33:34.640 And she decided with, you know,

00:33:38.660 her boyfriend and with very supportive parents

00:33:42.680 that that was the best thing.

00:33:45.060 Now, as it happens,

00:33:46.360 I think that we've seen a massive hostility

00:33:52.880 to young mothers

00:33:56.400 and to teenage pregnancy

00:34:00.020 over the last 20 years

00:34:03.260 that I've been working in the field.

00:34:07.320 You know, I think, you know, there has been,

00:34:09.740 well, I mean, it was really under the Blair government

00:34:12.140 where they started this big thing

00:34:15.940 about reducing the rate of teenage pregnancy

00:34:19.880 and it was a little bit like

00:34:21.320 it was really bad to get pregnant as a teenager,

00:34:26.220 but having a baby as a teenager

00:34:28.780 was even worse than having an abortion.

00:34:31.900 And I'm not sure that that's true

00:34:33.600 for a lot of young girls.

00:34:36.680 There are some of these young girls

00:34:38.840 who are perfectly capable,

00:34:41.760 as indeed there are lots of 30-year-old women

00:34:45.380 who are disastrous to mothers.

00:34:47.980 It's not, you know,

00:34:48.700 it's not a very age-related thing.

00:34:51.620 I think it does really decide,

00:34:53.760 you know, it does really depend a lot

00:34:55.320 on what you want to be doing

00:34:57.100 with your life at one time.

00:35:00.000 But, you know,

00:35:01.420 look, let me tell you about one,

00:35:04.340 right, and I'm so not making this up.

00:35:06.960 When I was at BPAS,

00:35:12.040 one of the things that was great about the job

00:35:15.080 was that you'd go and you'd see one of the clinics

00:35:17.900 and I used to hang out in the waiting room

00:35:20.100 of the clinic

00:35:21.320 because that's a really good place

00:35:22.560 to find out where things are going on.

00:35:24.920 And I remember talking to one woman

00:35:26.660 in the clinic in Brixton

00:35:28.460 who was freaking out

00:35:29.940 because the list was running late

00:35:33.820 and she'd got to go and collect her toddler

00:35:37.300 from nursery.

00:35:39.460 And she starts explaining to me

00:35:41.880 that the reason why she's having this termination

00:35:45.600 is actually because of her little boy.

00:35:49.620 And the situation is that

00:35:51.860 she'd split up with her little boy's dad.

00:35:56.480 She's got a really good relationship

00:35:58.600 with her little boy's dad.

00:35:59.940 And the little boy,

00:36:01.280 and this is the crucial thing,

00:36:02.800 the little boy has got a really good relationship

00:36:04.720 with his dad.

00:36:06.060 She's now pregnant by a new boyfriend

00:36:08.240 who she thinks is great fun for her.

00:36:12.460 But she says,

00:36:13.540 unlike her little boy's dad,

00:36:15.880 who is a brilliant dad,

00:36:17.200 she thinks this guy

00:36:18.540 would be a disastrous father.

00:36:21.440 And she knows that if she has this baby,

00:36:27.260 it's going to severely disrupt

00:36:30.220 the relationship that her existing child has got

00:36:35.580 because it's just going to throw

00:36:36.740 the whole thing out of kilter.

00:36:38.780 And she said to me,

00:36:40.440 and you know there are some things

00:36:42.400 that just stick in your mind,

00:36:44.200 and she's saying,

00:36:44.840 I actually told my current boyfriend

00:36:48.340 if he moved to Australia,

00:36:51.300 I'd probably have this baby,

00:36:53.760 but he's not going to move to Australia.

00:36:56.120 And I can't have him in my life

00:36:59.140 and my little boy's life

00:37:00.900 on an ongoing basis

00:37:02.340 in the way that it would be

00:37:03.680 if I had his baby.

00:37:05.460 Those, I mean,

00:37:06.780 talk about the wisdom of Solomon

00:37:09.280 to make these decisions.

00:37:12.920 Those are the kind of tangles

00:37:15.280 that women's lives are like.

00:37:17.740 It's complex.

00:37:19.160 It's difficult.

00:37:20.900 So it worries me

00:37:24.100 when people and, you know,

00:37:27.940 a lot of the people

00:37:28.940 on the anti-abortion side,

00:37:31.800 you know,

00:37:33.160 are taking highfalutin moral position.

00:37:36.160 That's wrong.

00:37:36.700 This is wrong.

00:37:37.840 You know,

00:37:38.360 sometimes it takes the wisdom of Solomon

00:37:40.620 to make these decisions.

00:37:42.460 Somebody's got to make it.

00:37:44.300 The woman's pregnant.

00:37:45.240 She's either going to have a baby

00:37:46.620 or she isn't.

00:37:47.500 That is very binary.

00:37:49.560 So who decides?

00:37:50.900 You have to let her make the decision.

00:37:53.680 Francis, before you jump in,

00:37:54.680 can I make one judge a comment?

00:37:56.480 So there is a voice in my head

00:38:00.620 that goes,

00:38:01.300 that's somebody who's managing

00:38:03.200 her relationships

00:38:04.560 by killing somebody else.

00:38:06.220 Like, do we,

00:38:07.420 why is that?

00:38:08.200 Well, you see.

00:38:09.200 But that's what's happening, isn't it?

00:38:10.260 No, but I can,

00:38:11.480 you see,

00:38:12.000 so the point is,

00:38:13.340 is that if you honestly

00:38:15.860 believe

00:38:17.420 in your heart of hearts

00:38:20.180 that the

00:38:22.500 embryo,

00:38:24.780 fetus,

00:38:25.800 call it what you will,

00:38:27.340 that

00:38:27.680 human life

00:38:29.920 inside that woman

00:38:31.440 that doesn't even know

00:38:33.800 it's alive yet,

00:38:35.020 if you think

00:38:37.120 that has

00:38:38.920 the moral equivalence

00:38:41.760 of

00:38:43.340 us

00:38:44.780 or even

00:38:46.500 that woman's

00:38:48.260 little

00:38:48.920 two-year-old,

00:38:50.660 then

00:38:51.640 there's no

00:38:53.000 answer

00:38:54.000 to what you say.

00:38:55.840 You're obviously

00:38:56.420 completely right.

00:38:57.340 And there are some people

00:38:58.820 who genuinely,

00:39:01.060 genuinely

00:39:01.540 believe

00:39:02.200 like that.

00:39:03.620 But

00:39:04.120 I actually think

00:39:05.480 that

00:39:06.000 most of us

00:39:07.740 really

00:39:09.100 don't

00:39:10.040 think

00:39:10.620 that.

00:39:11.920 And the way

00:39:12.340 that I look at it

00:39:13.320 is,

00:39:15.900 and I've thought about this,

00:39:16.840 I actually

00:39:17.880 struggled with

00:39:18.580 infertility

00:39:19.220 for a really

00:39:20.360 long

00:39:21.280 time.

00:39:23.320 And there was

00:39:24.180 a time when

00:39:25.120 Frank and I

00:39:26.000 were told

00:39:26.460 that we would

00:39:27.100 never have a child

00:39:27.920 and

00:39:29.140 had kind of

00:39:30.420 come to terms

00:39:31.060 with that.

00:39:31.860 And then

00:39:32.400 my son Jacob,

00:39:34.380 who you know,

00:39:35.180 you know,

00:39:35.680 kind of

00:39:36.580 is conceived

00:39:38.020 and

00:39:38.720 it was

00:39:39.680 absolutely

00:39:40.700 wonderful.

00:39:42.380 And

00:39:42.480 I

00:39:44.220 value

00:39:46.440 life

00:39:47.940 in

00:39:48.300 the womb.

00:39:50.780 I,

00:39:51.120 it

00:39:51.700 disturbs

00:39:53.320 me

00:39:53.720 when people

00:39:54.740 say,

00:39:55.000 oh,

00:39:55.020 it's just like

00:39:55.440 cancer or

00:39:56.100 something like,

00:39:56.740 you know,

00:39:57.340 it's not,

00:39:57.940 you know,

00:39:58.280 it isn't really

00:39:59.020 human life.

00:40:00.260 It's obviously

00:40:01.160 human life.

00:40:02.960 But,

00:40:03.480 and I value it

00:40:04.220 hugely,

00:40:04.780 but I don't

00:40:05.620 give it

00:40:06.380 as much

00:40:07.440 value

00:40:08.160 as say

00:40:09.620 that lady,

00:40:11.660 that lass,

00:40:12.640 I was just

00:40:13.180 talking about

00:40:14.240 there's her

00:40:16.160 and there's her

00:40:17.220 son and there's

00:40:18.080 the existing

00:40:18.680 people in their

00:40:19.460 lives

00:40:19.980 who are trying

00:40:20.940 to manage

00:40:21.420 stuff.

00:40:21.780 so I give

00:40:22.160 it huge

00:40:22.580 value,

00:40:23.040 but not

00:40:23.300 as much

00:40:23.640 value

00:40:23.940 as that.

00:40:24.960 Do you

00:40:25.160 think the

00:40:25.780 reason that

00:40:26.540 the statistic

00:40:27.240 you quoted,

00:40:27.880 one in three

00:40:28.420 women has

00:40:29.880 an abortion

00:40:30.380 is because

00:40:31.100 of the type

00:40:31.580 of society

00:40:32.100 that we

00:40:32.480 live in

00:40:32.800 now where

00:40:33.180 sex is

00:40:33.860 seen as

00:40:34.320 a commodity.

00:40:35.560 It's seen

00:40:36.320 as,

00:40:36.700 you know,

00:40:37.720 something that

00:40:38.240 you can do.

00:40:38.840 No strings

00:40:39.320 attached,

00:40:39.800 there's going

00:40:40.060 to be no

00:40:40.460 consequences

00:40:41.140 from it.

00:40:42.160 The fact

00:40:42.600 that you

00:40:42.860 spoke to

00:40:43.340 me,

00:40:43.760 or you

00:40:44.080 spoke to

00:40:44.440 us

00:40:44.620 rather,

00:40:45.040 about

00:40:45.320 contraceptions,

00:40:46.200 that is

00:40:46.420 not as

00:40:46.940 effective as

00:40:48.900 we've been

00:40:49.300 led to

00:40:49.700 believe that

00:40:50.360 there's

00:40:50.740 something else

00:40:51.240 that I

00:40:51.500 want to

00:40:51.720 explore.

00:40:52.320 Do you

00:40:52.540 think that

00:40:52.860 is a

00:40:53.120 result of

00:40:53.580 all of

00:40:53.840 these

00:40:54.020 things?

00:40:55.460 So what

00:40:56.140 I think

00:40:56.420 is going

00:40:56.820 on at

00:40:57.120 the moment

00:40:57.600 is that

00:40:58.940 I think

00:40:59.940 that whether

00:41:01.180 you think

00:41:01.620 it's right

00:41:02.140 or whether

00:41:02.800 you think

00:41:03.400 it's wrong,

00:41:05.300 sex in

00:41:06.200 our minds

00:41:07.040 is not

00:41:08.300 linked to

00:41:09.240 reproduction.

00:41:10.800 You don't

00:41:11.400 think when

00:41:13.020 I'm making

00:41:14.640 no assumptions

00:41:15.300 about,

00:41:15.680 well,

00:41:15.880 you clearly

00:41:16.820 said you

00:41:17.440 I have

00:41:18.460 had sex

00:41:18.900 once.

00:41:19.560 You have

00:41:19.880 had sex

00:41:20.460 with a

00:41:21.220 woman.

00:41:21.640 Yes.

00:41:22.080 Right,

00:41:22.400 okay.

00:41:23.420 Even with

00:41:24.760 the woman

00:41:25.460 that you

00:41:25.900 are with

00:41:26.620 on an

00:41:27.060 ongoing

00:41:27.400 basis,

00:41:28.720 you do

00:41:29.140 not expect

00:41:30.380 every time

00:41:31.280 you have

00:41:31.860 sex that

00:41:33.040 it's going

00:41:33.340 to result

00:41:33.800 in a

00:41:34.300 child.

00:41:34.900 We have

00:41:35.240 learnt

00:41:36.020 to separate

00:41:36.580 that and

00:41:37.380 I think

00:41:37.880 that for

00:41:38.780 most people

00:41:39.480 it's even

00:41:40.060 more separate

00:41:40.640 than that.

00:41:41.260 They simply

00:41:41.660 don't expect

00:41:42.940 to be able

00:41:45.520 to prevent

00:41:46.180 pregnancy

00:41:46.740 and I

00:41:47.320 think most

00:41:48.120 people,

00:41:49.240 men as

00:41:49.760 well as

00:41:50.220 women,

00:41:50.880 would rather

00:41:51.500 prevent

00:41:52.000 pregnancy

00:41:52.600 but when

00:41:53.820 pregnancy

00:41:54.600 happens

00:41:55.460 and they

00:41:58.880 haven't

00:41:59.160 wanted it,

00:42:00.380 they expect

00:42:01.060 to be able

00:42:01.820 to put

00:42:03.080 that situation

00:42:04.180 right and I

00:42:05.100 think abortion

00:42:05.680 is seen as a

00:42:06.340 backstop.

00:42:06.940 and I

00:42:07.940 think that's

00:42:08.280 just the

00:42:08.600 way it

00:42:08.960 is and

00:42:10.980 that's

00:42:11.240 very

00:42:11.820 different

00:42:12.540 to the

00:42:14.780 way that

00:42:15.220 things were

00:42:16.280 even when

00:42:17.440 you know I

00:42:18.260 was young

00:42:19.220 and growing

00:42:19.940 up when

00:42:20.620 you know I

00:42:23.360 remember

00:42:23.700 going on

00:42:25.220 the pill

00:42:25.960 when I

00:42:26.560 was a

00:42:27.120 teenager

00:42:27.660 and being

00:42:29.400 terrified of

00:42:30.880 the prospect

00:42:31.420 of getting

00:42:33.200 pregnant,

00:42:34.080 absolutely

00:42:34.560 petrified of

00:42:35.960 it and

00:42:37.780 I think

00:42:38.060 that's not

00:42:38.460 the way

00:42:38.740 that young

00:42:39.120 people see

00:42:40.480 things now

00:42:41.340 whether it's

00:42:44.180 right,

00:42:44.420 whether it's

00:42:44.780 wrong,

00:42:45.720 it is

00:42:46.960 and we

00:42:48.680 have to

00:42:49.120 cope with

00:42:50.000 that and

00:42:53.420 so I

00:42:55.400 don't think

00:42:56.060 that abortion

00:42:57.080 is particularly

00:42:57.840 the problem,

00:42:59.540 I think it's

00:43:00.340 the solution

00:43:01.100 to a number

00:43:02.600 of various

00:43:03.360 different

00:43:04.240 problems

00:43:04.920 that women

00:43:06.420 face.

00:43:07.740 And what's

00:43:08.060 a man's

00:43:08.500 role in

00:43:08.840 all of

00:43:09.100 this and

00:43:09.440 because I

00:43:09.840 remember a

00:43:10.560 former partner

00:43:11.100 I was with

00:43:11.520 we had a

00:43:11.980 discussion

00:43:12.440 what would

00:43:12.840 happen if

00:43:13.300 we had a

00:43:14.220 child because

00:43:15.180 we weren't in

00:43:16.000 a position to

00:43:16.660 raise it and

00:43:17.080 she was like

00:43:17.380 well I just

00:43:17.780 have an

00:43:18.060 abortion and

00:43:19.060 I remember

00:43:19.400 thinking well

00:43:20.040 obviously that

00:43:20.640 I'm for

00:43:22.620 abortion but I

00:43:23.240 was thinking

00:43:23.560 do I not

00:43:24.400 have a say

00:43:24.840 in this?

00:43:26.220 You know

00:43:26.460 it's I

00:43:27.400 mean it's

00:43:28.320 my child

00:43:28.800 as well

00:43:29.320 at what

00:43:30.660 point did

00:43:31.560 you see

00:43:31.840 and I know

00:43:32.620 there'll be

00:43:32.920 people out

00:43:33.340 there going

00:43:33.680 you're a

00:43:34.000 man

00:43:34.180 but it's

00:43:36.440 important.

00:43:37.900 I think

00:43:38.240 it is

00:43:40.720 important or

00:43:41.260 at least put

00:43:41.660 it like this

00:43:42.060 it's not

00:43:42.400 unimportant

00:43:43.080 and I

00:43:45.840 think that

00:43:46.300 most men

00:43:47.220 you know

00:43:48.320 are deeply

00:43:50.320 interested

00:43:51.140 in

00:43:51.880 interested

00:43:53.240 at least

00:43:53.860 interested

00:43:54.400 in whether

00:43:54.860 or not

00:43:55.160 they father

00:43:55.620 a

00:43:56.040 whether or

00:43:57.240 not they

00:43:57.560 father a

00:43:58.240 child

00:44:00.060 but at

00:44:01.260 the end

00:44:01.640 of the

00:44:02.000 day

00:44:02.480 when it

00:44:04.700 comes down

00:44:05.400 to the

00:44:05.840 when it

00:44:06.960 comes down

00:44:07.380 to making

00:44:07.740 a hard

00:44:08.120 decision

00:44:08.640 as I said

00:44:09.660 right at

00:44:10.040 the beginning

00:44:10.400 of this

00:44:10.720 discussion

00:44:11.200 it is a

00:44:11.780 woman's

00:44:12.080 body

00:44:12.320 and I

00:44:12.640 don't

00:44:12.800 think

00:44:13.000 that a

00:44:13.320 man can

00:44:13.720 decide

00:44:14.340 about

00:44:15.540 that

00:44:16.180 so I

00:44:17.660 don't

00:44:18.000 think

00:44:18.400 that a

00:44:19.220 man

00:44:19.680 should

00:44:20.920 ever

00:44:21.500 actually

00:44:22.920 legally

00:44:23.380 they're

00:44:23.700 not in

00:44:24.200 a position

00:44:24.760 to ever

00:44:26.360 say

00:44:27.000 whether

00:44:27.880 a woman

00:44:28.300 can

00:44:28.820 or can't

00:44:29.640 have an

00:44:30.220 abortion

00:44:30.760 regardless

00:44:31.840 of their

00:44:32.360 relationship

00:44:33.080 to the

00:44:33.480 pregnancy

00:44:33.980 and I

00:44:34.940 think

00:44:35.140 legally

00:44:35.960 that's

00:44:36.480 right

00:44:36.920 but you

00:44:37.600 know

00:44:37.720 something

00:44:38.060 when

00:44:38.840 women

00:44:39.940 come into

00:44:40.580 an abortion

00:44:41.100 clinic

00:44:41.600 usually the

00:44:43.220 guy's there

00:44:43.760 as well

00:44:44.160 I mean

00:44:45.240 they really

00:44:46.420 are

00:44:46.720 it's

00:44:47.360 usually

00:44:48.260 a decision

00:44:49.720 that they've

00:44:50.380 made

00:44:50.620 together

00:44:51.160 because

00:44:52.320 they're

00:44:54.100 usually

00:44:54.380 in a

00:44:54.660 sexual

00:44:54.960 relationship

00:44:55.640 you know

00:44:56.180 and the

00:44:57.960 women

00:44:58.180 who come

00:44:59.060 in on

00:44:59.700 their own

00:45:00.180 or who

00:45:01.700 haven't

00:45:02.560 discussed

00:45:02.960 it

00:45:03.320 with

00:45:04.020 the

00:45:04.380 guy

00:45:04.720 are the

00:45:05.580 ones

00:45:05.860 who are

00:45:06.200 not in

00:45:06.580 a

00:45:06.700 relationship

00:45:07.200 with the

00:45:07.680 guy

00:45:07.980 so yeah

00:45:10.500 you know

00:45:10.840 I think

00:45:11.240 you know

00:45:11.760 men

00:45:12.200 matter

00:45:13.880 in this

00:45:15.560 but they

00:45:16.800 can't have

00:45:17.320 the deciding

00:45:17.980 vote

00:45:18.480 pregnancy

00:45:21.040 is not

00:45:22.260 an equal

00:45:22.600 situation

00:45:23.320 no it's

00:45:23.880 not

00:45:24.080 you know

00:45:24.360 as my

00:45:24.760 granny

00:45:25.020 would say

00:45:25.660 a man

00:45:26.580 can always

00:45:26.980 put his

00:45:27.300 hat on

00:45:27.680 and walk

00:45:28.040 away

00:45:28.400 the woman

00:45:29.880 is literally

00:45:31.100 carrying

00:45:31.980 the

00:45:32.920 consequences

00:45:33.820 and let's

00:45:35.160 talk about

00:45:35.540 contraception

00:45:36.300 a bit

00:45:36.480 because you

00:45:36.920 touched on

00:45:37.560 that

00:45:37.780 and that

00:45:38.140 is something

00:45:38.660 that I've

00:45:40.060 never heard

00:45:40.720 and certainly

00:45:41.960 doesn't get

00:45:42.640 told to me

00:45:43.200 by all the

00:45:43.740 adverts

00:45:44.260 etc

00:45:44.760 etc

00:45:45.220 etc

00:45:45.540 so let's

00:45:45.980 explore that

00:45:46.660 well

00:45:47.280 you know

00:45:47.780 so

00:45:48.260 think about

00:45:51.020 it like

00:45:51.440 this

00:45:51.920 about

00:45:53.300 half

00:45:54.600 of

00:45:55.520 the

00:45:55.820 women

00:45:56.140 that are

00:45:56.760 seen

00:45:57.320 at

00:45:57.700 Bpass

00:45:58.300 half of

00:45:59.100 them

00:45:59.340 say that

00:46:02.820 they're using

00:46:03.580 a method

00:46:04.360 of contraception

00:46:05.420 at the time

00:46:06.720 that they

00:46:07.220 conceived

00:46:07.800 now you

00:46:08.900 might just

00:46:09.340 say

00:46:09.680 well they

00:46:10.780 probably

00:46:11.220 would

00:46:11.660 wouldn't

00:46:11.980 they

00:46:12.220 and

00:46:13.220 when it

00:46:14.000 comes to

00:46:14.580 condom

00:46:15.060 use

00:46:15.600 you know

00:46:18.560 I think

00:46:18.940 it probably

00:46:19.380 is the

00:46:19.800 case

00:46:20.200 that

00:46:20.660 a fair

00:46:21.760 amount

00:46:22.000 of

00:46:22.180 condom

00:46:22.540 failure

00:46:23.080 is

00:46:23.440 failure

00:46:23.820 to

00:46:24.120 get it

00:46:24.520 out

00:46:24.760 of the

00:46:25.000 packet

00:46:25.300 and

00:46:26.120 on

00:46:26.840 to

00:46:27.360 the

00:46:27.720 right

00:46:27.980 body

00:46:28.280 part

00:46:28.760 when

00:46:29.120 you're

00:46:29.640 having

00:46:29.960 sex

00:46:30.680 but

00:46:32.000 there

00:46:32.280 are

00:46:32.500 a

00:46:32.720 massive

00:46:33.300 number

00:46:33.720 of

00:46:34.300 women

00:46:34.680 who

00:46:35.220 come

00:46:35.640 in

00:46:35.880 who

00:46:36.260 are

00:46:36.880 using

00:46:37.300 contraceptive

00:46:38.060 pills

00:46:38.480 and

00:46:39.540 using

00:46:40.060 other

00:46:40.900 methods

00:46:41.740 of

00:46:42.080 contraception

00:46:42.860 that you

00:46:43.160 would expect

00:46:43.640 to be

00:46:43.940 more

00:46:44.120 reliable

00:46:44.600 and I

00:46:45.420 think

00:46:45.660 that

00:46:45.980 one of

00:46:47.400 the

00:46:47.540 things

00:46:47.840 is

00:46:48.200 is

00:46:48.440 that

00:46:48.860 we

00:46:49.980 tend

00:46:50.600 to

00:46:50.820 think

00:46:51.100 about

00:46:51.420 contraception

00:46:52.220 as

00:46:52.440 being

00:46:53.040 unfallible

00:46:55.660 you know

00:46:56.260 it's

00:46:56.800 just

00:46:57.060 simply

00:46:57.420 not

00:46:57.740 failing

00:46:58.260 so

00:46:59.280 you know

00:47:01.100 in

00:47:01.640 tests

00:47:02.420 the

00:47:05.640 contraceptive

00:47:06.380 pill

00:47:06.720 will

00:47:07.020 come up

00:47:07.740 with

00:47:08.000 being

00:47:08.720 what is

00:47:09.560 it

00:47:09.720 having

00:47:09.960 a

00:47:10.180 failure

00:47:10.500 rate

00:47:11.000 of

00:47:11.440 half

00:47:12.480 you know

00:47:13.060 0.5

00:47:14.380 half

00:47:15.720 a

00:47:15.900 percent

00:47:16.400 but

00:47:17.360 even

00:47:17.700 that

00:47:18.280 when

00:47:18.580 you

00:47:18.740 think

00:47:18.980 about

00:47:19.320 it

00:47:19.620 is

00:47:20.200 if

00:47:21.460 you

00:47:21.600 take

00:47:21.900 it

00:47:22.200 according

00:47:22.960 to

00:47:23.260 those

00:47:23.880 scientific

00:47:24.780 statistics

00:47:25.600 when

00:47:26.460 the

00:47:26.600 contraceptive

00:47:27.260 pill

00:47:27.480 is

00:47:27.660 used

00:47:27.920 absolutely

00:47:28.420 perfectly

00:47:29.080 that

00:47:29.920 means

00:47:30.280 that

00:47:30.500 one

00:47:30.880 woman

00:47:31.280 in

00:47:32.240 200

00:47:33.400 will

00:47:34.560 become

00:47:34.820 pregnant

00:47:35.120 during

00:47:35.500 a

00:47:35.720 year

00:47:36.080 well

00:47:37.340 if

00:47:38.080 you've

00:47:38.340 got

00:47:38.700 3

00:47:39.140 million

00:47:39.480 using

00:47:39.940 the

00:47:40.620 pill

00:47:41.000 that

00:47:41.680 is

00:47:41.880 still

00:47:42.240 a

00:47:42.700 lot

00:47:42.880 of

00:47:43.080 women

00:47:43.380 and

00:47:44.500 if

00:47:44.860 you

00:47:45.000 take

00:47:45.340 it

00:47:45.700 where

00:47:46.040 you

00:47:46.240 think

00:47:46.480 about

00:47:46.920 the

00:47:47.440 pill's

00:47:47.760 effectiveness

00:47:48.320 in

00:47:48.800 real

00:47:49.340 life

00:47:50.080 where

00:47:51.280 we

00:47:52.320 forget

00:47:52.580 to

00:47:52.740 take

00:47:52.960 it

00:47:53.060 every

00:47:53.280 now

00:47:53.460 and

00:47:53.560 again

00:47:53.820 or

00:47:54.040 you

00:47:54.180 have

00:47:54.380 a

00:47:54.560 stomach

00:47:54.820 upset

00:47:55.260 or

00:47:56.240 you

00:47:57.000 know

00:47:57.140 what

00:47:57.440 have

00:47:57.720 you

00:47:57.960 well

00:47:58.240 that's

00:47:58.520 a

00:47:58.640 failure

00:47:58.900 rate

00:47:59.360 of

00:47:59.520 about

00:47:59.780 4%

00:48:00.480 so

00:48:00.900 that's

00:48:01.200 four

00:48:01.560 women

00:48:01.860 in

00:48:02.220 100

00:48:02.620 who

00:48:03.560 will

00:48:03.700 become

00:48:03.980 pregnant

00:48:04.360 and

00:48:05.380 we

00:48:06.100 just

00:48:06.460 don't

00:48:07.600 think

00:48:08.300 about

00:48:09.220 that

00:48:09.680 I

00:48:10.080 mean

00:48:10.220 the

00:48:10.380 point

00:48:10.700 what I

00:48:11.340 think

00:48:11.860 is

00:48:12.940 ultimately

00:48:13.800 we need

00:48:15.340 to

00:48:15.600 recognise

00:48:16.180 that

00:48:17.680 abortion

00:48:18.420 is

00:48:19.520 in a

00:48:20.180 way

00:48:20.500 a

00:48:20.880 form

00:48:21.160 of

00:48:21.320 birth

00:48:21.540 control

00:48:22.100 and

00:48:24.260 there

00:48:25.580 are

00:48:25.900 a

00:48:27.060 range

00:48:27.760 of

00:48:27.940 methods

00:48:28.460 of

00:48:29.240 stopping

00:48:29.960 having

00:48:31.360 a

00:48:31.660 child

00:48:32.160 and

00:48:34.440 some

00:48:35.360 of

00:48:35.600 them

00:48:36.040 act

00:48:37.320 before

00:48:38.820 you

00:48:39.380 conceive

00:48:42.220 some

00:48:43.700 of

00:48:43.920 them

00:48:44.180 like

00:48:44.480 abortion

00:48:46.260 act

00:48:47.180 after

00:48:47.920 you've

00:48:48.680 conceived

00:48:49.180 but

00:48:50.040 they

00:48:50.200 all

00:48:50.540 at

00:48:50.680 the

00:48:50.820 end

00:48:50.980 of

00:48:51.120 the

00:48:51.260 day

00:48:51.580 wrap

00:48:52.260 up

00:48:52.700 as

00:48:53.300 being

00:48:53.560 a

00:48:53.740 way

00:48:54.100 of

00:48:54.660 stopping

00:48:55.540 a

00:48:56.140 child

00:48:56.400 from

00:48:56.800 being

00:48:57.440 born

00:48:57.820 and

00:48:58.020 I

00:48:58.160 think

00:48:58.400 if

00:48:58.600 we

00:48:58.900 accept

00:49:00.660 it

00:49:01.040 like

00:49:01.340 that

00:49:01.780 it

00:49:02.340 probably

00:49:03.080 helps

00:49:04.480 but

00:49:04.940 as

00:49:06.480 you

00:49:06.680 say

00:49:07.020 women

00:49:07.480 don't

00:49:07.900 expect

00:49:08.320 contraception

00:49:09.040 to

00:49:09.240 fail

00:49:09.600 men

00:49:10.340 don't

00:49:10.700 expect

00:49:11.080 contraception

00:49:11.800 to

00:49:12.000 fail

00:49:12.340 so it's

00:49:12.980 hardly

00:49:13.180 surprising

00:49:13.720 that they

00:49:14.180 end up

00:49:14.500 in a

00:49:14.860 B-pass

00:49:15.340 clinic

00:49:15.720 when

00:49:17.160 it

00:49:17.720 does

00:49:18.220 well

00:49:18.880 that's

00:49:19.820 not

00:49:19.940 what we

00:49:20.120 get

00:49:20.300 fed

00:49:20.520 by

00:49:20.680 society

00:49:21.160 and

00:49:21.300 certainly

00:49:21.660 not

00:49:22.660 what we

00:49:23.000 get

00:49:23.160 fed

00:49:23.340 by

00:49:23.520 advertisers

00:49:24.060 well

00:49:25.100 you know

00:49:25.720 look

00:49:26.360 think

00:49:27.180 about

00:49:27.440 it

00:49:27.580 like

00:49:27.800 this

00:49:28.240 you know

00:49:28.720 it

00:49:28.920 wouldn't

00:49:29.080 make

00:49:29.280 for a

00:49:29.580 great

00:49:29.760 advert

00:49:30.120 you're

00:49:31.360 only

00:49:31.480 going

00:49:31.620 to

00:49:31.680 get

00:49:31.840 pregnant

00:49:32.180 once

00:49:32.660 out

00:49:32.860 of

00:49:32.980 ten

00:49:33.220 times

00:49:33.500 it

00:49:33.920 wouldn't

00:49:34.260 but

00:49:34.420 you know

00:49:34.780 think

00:49:35.560 about

00:49:35.880 it

00:49:36.080 like

00:49:36.380 this

00:49:36.940 right

00:49:37.680 you

00:49:38.060 you

00:49:38.380 always

00:49:38.700 think

00:49:38.900 your

00:49:39.080 car

00:49:39.380 is

00:49:39.580 going

00:49:39.740 to

00:49:39.900 start

00:49:40.340 in

00:49:40.540 the

00:49:40.640 morning

00:49:41.000 and

00:49:41.860 sometimes

00:49:42.400 it

00:49:42.660 is

00:49:42.840 a

00:49:43.020 thing

00:49:47.760 that's

00:49:48.120 going

00:49:48.380 on

00:49:48.640 I

00:49:49.180 you

00:49:49.980 know

00:49:50.140 I

00:49:50.420 I

00:49:51.220 passed

00:49:53.220 my

00:49:53.540 driving

00:49:53.980 test

00:49:54.520 right

00:49:55.520 I

00:49:55.780 passed

00:49:56.240 my

00:49:56.460 driving

00:49:56.820 test

00:49:57.380 I

00:49:58.140 know

00:49:58.580 the

00:49:58.860 highway

00:49:59.220 code

00:50:00.080 you

00:50:01.360 know

00:50:01.960 the

00:50:03.060 my

00:50:03.780 company

00:50:04.240 as

00:50:04.560 BPAS

00:50:05.560 would

00:50:06.100 have been

00:50:06.660 so

00:50:07.040 delighted

00:50:07.740 when I

00:50:08.380 left

00:50:08.880 and I

00:50:09.180 didn't

00:50:09.440 have a

00:50:09.720 company

00:50:09.960 car

00:50:10.280 anymore

00:50:10.680 because

00:50:11.260 the

00:50:11.460 number

00:50:11.680 of

00:50:11.860 times

00:50:12.180 I

00:50:12.380 managed

00:50:12.740 to

00:50:13.060 back

00:50:13.880 into

00:50:14.160 things

00:50:14.700 getting

00:50:15.380 out

00:50:15.640 of

00:50:15.760 a

00:50:15.880 car

00:50:16.120 park

00:50:16.660 you

00:50:17.460 know

00:50:17.740 so

00:50:18.320 contraception

00:50:20.220 is probably

00:50:20.960 about as

00:50:21.400 reliable as

00:50:22.080 my

00:50:22.260 driving

00:50:22.760 let's

00:50:23.440 look at

00:50:23.840 it

00:50:23.960 like

00:50:24.140 that

00:50:24.460 and

00:50:25.280 would

00:50:25.440 you

00:50:25.560 classify

00:50:25.960 as a

00:50:26.260 morning

00:50:26.480 after pill

00:50:27.080 as a

00:50:27.700 as an

00:50:28.260 abortion

00:50:28.700 the

00:50:29.320 morning

00:50:29.580 after pill

00:50:29.980 is

00:50:30.160 definitely

00:50:30.780 a method

00:50:31.300 of

00:50:31.480 contraception

00:50:32.300 legally

00:50:33.060 right

00:50:34.640 morally

00:50:35.260 you can

00:50:35.840 go all

00:50:36.180 over the

00:50:36.500 place

00:50:36.900 with this

00:50:37.540 kind

00:50:37.760 of

00:50:38.080 abortion

00:50:38.740 isn't

00:50:39.580 it

00:50:39.680 no

00:50:39.980 because

00:50:40.620 technically

00:50:42.020 in law

00:50:43.200 contraception

00:50:45.360 is something

00:50:46.160 that stops

00:50:47.920 a fertilised

00:50:49.260 egg

00:50:49.660 from

00:50:50.520 implanting

00:50:51.400 in the

00:50:52.180 womb

00:50:52.540 abortion

00:50:54.120 is something

00:50:55.080 that ends

00:50:56.400 a pregnancy

00:50:57.120 and that

00:50:57.980 means

00:50:58.460 it works

00:50:59.700 after

00:51:00.600 now the

00:51:01.480 point about

00:51:02.020 and the

00:51:02.280 reason why

00:51:02.840 it is

00:51:03.120 really

00:51:03.600 important

00:51:04.180 to

00:51:05.100 ram this

00:51:07.280 point

00:51:07.620 home

00:51:08.140 is that

00:51:08.860 if you're

00:51:09.160 already

00:51:09.540 pregnant

00:51:10.000 and you

00:51:10.640 take the

00:51:10.920 morning

00:51:11.120 after pill

00:51:11.800 it just

00:51:12.200 doesn't

00:51:12.520 work

00:51:12.980 so

00:51:14.140 that's

00:51:14.620 why

00:51:15.060 there's

00:51:16.260 an

00:51:16.540 important

00:51:17.040 distinction

00:51:18.000 although

00:51:19.960 there are

00:51:21.580 some

00:51:22.180 people

00:51:22.660 who say

00:51:23.200 well

00:51:23.500 hang on

00:51:24.300 a minute

00:51:24.500 here

00:51:24.740 I don't

00:51:25.520 know what

00:51:25.840 Carl

00:51:26.140 Miller's

00:51:26.920 views

00:51:27.220 were on

00:51:27.820 this

00:51:27.980 or whether

00:51:28.260 you talked

00:51:28.700 about it

00:51:29.260 but they'll

00:51:30.060 say well

00:51:30.400 you know

00:51:30.800 there's a

00:51:31.120 period of

00:51:31.560 time

00:51:31.960 when

00:51:32.580 an egg

00:51:33.040 has been

00:51:33.600 fertilised

00:51:34.640 but it

00:51:35.500 hasn't

00:51:35.980 implanted

00:51:36.540 in the

00:51:36.860 womb

00:51:37.120 yet

00:51:37.720 and

00:51:38.520 the

00:51:39.300 morning

00:51:39.540 after

00:51:39.840 pill

00:51:40.260 might

00:51:41.040 interfere

00:51:42.720 with

00:51:43.200 that

00:51:43.580 so

00:51:44.660 if

00:51:45.460 you

00:51:45.840 are

00:51:46.160 really

00:51:46.740 concerned

00:51:47.360 about

00:51:47.740 that

00:51:48.220 then

00:51:48.980 you

00:51:49.420 might

00:51:49.620 not

00:51:49.780 want

00:51:49.900 to

00:51:50.000 use

00:51:50.280 it

00:51:50.560 but I

00:51:51.280 think

00:51:51.420 most

00:51:51.660 people

00:51:51.920 are

00:51:52.120 and

00:51:52.880 certainly

00:51:53.180 legally

00:51:53.720 which

00:51:54.380 is why

00:51:54.880 abortion

00:51:55.640 in this

00:51:56.620 country

00:51:57.100 you can

00:51:57.580 only do

00:51:58.200 it

00:51:58.480 in

00:51:59.020 hospitals

00:51:59.700 or

00:52:00.340 licensed

00:52:01.440 clinics

00:52:02.080 now

00:52:04.820 you can

00:52:05.260 have

00:52:05.480 the

00:52:05.760 abortion

00:52:06.320 pill

00:52:06.680 at

00:52:06.860 home

00:52:07.300 but

00:52:07.860 it

00:52:08.000 still

00:52:08.400 has

00:52:08.740 to

00:52:08.900 be

00:52:09.300 sent

00:52:10.040 out

00:52:10.460 from

00:52:10.980 licensed

00:52:12.020 premises

00:52:12.540 whereas

00:52:12.940 the

00:52:13.160 morning

00:52:13.360 after

00:52:13.580 pill

00:52:13.800 you can

00:52:14.060 get

00:52:14.220 in

00:52:14.320 your

00:52:14.440 chemist

00:52:14.940 I'm

00:52:18.020 going to

00:52:18.180 have

00:52:18.280 another

00:52:18.540 go at

00:52:20.940 the

00:52:21.780 cherry

00:52:22.000 because

00:52:22.480 hey

00:52:23.720 Francis

00:52:24.160 do

00:52:24.580 you

00:52:24.760 like

00:52:25.020 books

00:52:25.460 I

00:52:25.940 tried

00:52:26.300 one

00:52:26.520 once

00:52:26.900 wasn't

00:52:27.320 for

00:52:27.540 me

00:52:27.760 mate

00:52:28.020 not

00:52:28.280 enough

00:52:28.580 pictures

00:52:29.040 of

00:52:29.300 fit

00:52:29.560 brown

00:52:29.960 birds

00:52:30.500 never

00:52:31.180 working

00:52:31.540 with

00:52:31.740 you

00:52:31.860 again

00:52:32.180 but

00:52:32.780 if

00:52:33.200 you

00:52:33.420 like

00:52:33.700 fantasy

00:52:34.160 check out

00:52:34.860 the

00:52:35.040 Ripples

00:52:35.340 in

00:52:35.540 reality

00:52:36.000 series

00:52:36.500 by

00:52:36.780 JS

00:52:37.280 Powell

00:52:37.640 they're

00:52:38.180 absolutely

00:52:38.640 brilliant

00:52:39.100 and they

00:52:39.560 have a

00:52:39.880 5

00:52:40.180 gold

00:52:40.780 star

00:52:41.060 rating

00:52:41.440 on

00:52:41.600 Amazon

00:52:41.900 I've

00:52:42.460 heard

00:52:42.640 of

00:52:42.780 them

00:52:42.940 they're

00:52:43.540 beautifully

00:52:44.180 written

00:52:44.620 and

00:52:45.100 completely

00:52:45.780 original

00:52:46.380 if

00:52:46.800 you

00:52:47.040 want

00:52:47.280 a

00:52:47.460 book

00:52:47.740 that

00:52:48.180 allows

00:52:48.640 you

00:52:48.820 to

00:52:49.040 delve

00:52:49.380 into

00:52:49.620 different

00:52:50.220 worlds

00:52:50.680 and

00:52:51.020 helps

00:52:51.340 you

00:52:51.520 escape

00:52:52.000 the

00:52:52.220 insanity

00:52:52.740 of

00:52:53.080 real

00:52:53.340 life

00:52:53.700 then

00:52:53.980 Ripples

00:52:54.500 in

00:52:54.740 reality

00:52:55.160 is

00:52:55.680 for

00:52:55.860 you

00:52:56.180 see

00:52:57.040 I

00:52:57.520 know

00:52:57.720 the

00:52:57.880 word

00:52:58.140 delve

00:52:58.680 so

00:52:59.080 I

00:52:59.240 do

00:52:59.460 read

00:52:59.760 books

00:53:00.240 amazing

00:53:00.880 just

00:53:01.460 imagine

00:53:01.800 books

00:53:02.140 written

00:53:02.400 in

00:53:02.620 the

00:53:02.760 style

00:53:03.040 of

00:53:03.200 Game

00:53:03.460 of

00:53:03.600 Thrones

00:53:03.960 Lord

00:53:04.260 of

00:53:04.380 the

00:53:04.480 Rings

00:53:04.740 Forgotten

00:53:05.220 Realms

00:53:05.580 with

00:53:05.960 an

00:53:06.080 added

00:53:06.320 pinch

00:53:06.600 of

00:53:06.720 Stargate

00:53:07.240 it's

00:53:07.640 catnip

00:53:08.060 for

00:53:08.220 people

00:53:08.440 like

00:53:08.640 me

00:53:08.940 virgins

00:53:09.920 she

00:53:12.360 started

00:53:12.780 a

00:53:12.960 publishing

00:53:13.360 company

00:53:13.760 named

00:53:14.120 Poppyfield

00:53:14.820 Publishing

00:53:15.400 and her

00:53:19.380 read

00:53:19.520 and

00:53:19.960 are

00:53:20.080 not

00:53:20.300 woke

00:53:20.660 book

00:53:21.120 one

00:53:21.360 is

00:53:21.500 Shadow

00:53:21.760 Step

00:53:22.120 and

00:53:23.040 book

00:53:23.360 two

00:53:23.720 gather

00:53:24.200 shadows

00:53:24.900 she's

00:53:25.940 currently

00:53:26.220 writing

00:53:26.680 book

00:53:26.980 number

00:53:27.200 three

00:53:27.540 I

00:53:28.040 can't

00:53:28.400 wait

00:53:28.700 I

00:53:29.200 don't

00:53:29.500 read

00:53:29.740 books

00:53:30.060 because

00:53:30.240 I

00:53:30.380 can

00:53:30.520 talk

00:53:30.760 to

00:53:30.940 girls

00:53:31.360 your

00:53:31.640 mum

00:53:31.780 doesn't

00:53:32.100 count

00:53:32.360 mate

00:53:32.600 and

00:53:33.080 by the

00:53:33.360 way

00:53:33.580 Jspal

00:53:34.180 is

00:53:34.500 a

00:53:34.620 big

00:53:34.780 supporter

00:53:35.220 of

00:53:35.360 Trigonometry

00:53:35.840 she

00:53:36.200 is

00:53:36.360 a

00:53:36.500 moderator

00:53:36.900 on

00:53:37.180 our

00:53:37.320 channel

00:53:37.640 and

00:53:38.080 we

00:53:38.200 really

00:53:38.580 appreciate

00:53:39.200 all

00:53:39.480 her

00:53:39.680 help

00:53:40.000 you

00:53:40.420 can

00:53:40.560 find

00:53:40.820 her

00:53:40.940 books

00:53:41.160 online

00:53:41.540 at

00:53:41.720 amazon

00:53:49.380 i'm

00:53:54.500 gonna

00:53:54.640 have

00:53:54.780 another

00:53:55.000 go

00:53:55.260 at

00:53:55.460 the

00:53:56.280 chair

00:53:56.480 because

00:53:56.960 i was

00:53:57.600 thinking

00:53:57.800 about

00:53:58.100 the

00:53:58.380 example

00:53:58.700 of

00:53:58.880 the

00:53:59.020 brixton

00:53:59.400 that

00:54:00.040 you

00:54:00.200 gave

00:54:00.560 and

00:54:00.760 you

00:54:00.920 said

00:54:01.260 well

00:54:02.220 people

00:54:02.860 yes

00:54:03.400 we

00:54:03.560 all

00:54:03.740 accept

00:54:04.120 that

00:54:04.460 it's

00:54:05.280 life

00:54:05.660 but

00:54:05.920 is

00:54:06.220 it

00:54:06.340 the

00:54:06.480 same

00:54:06.720 life

00:54:07.080 as

00:54:07.300 the

00:54:07.760 people

00:54:08.000 who

00:54:08.180 are

00:54:08.240 already

00:54:08.500 alive

00:54:08.800 but

00:54:09.360 we're

00:54:09.520 not

00:54:09.660 talking

00:54:09.880 about

00:54:10.120 killing

00:54:10.360 those

00:54:10.620 people

00:54:10.960 we're

00:54:11.880 talking

00:54:12.080 about

00:54:12.260 inconveniencing

00:54:13.000 them

00:54:13.280 or

00:54:14.060 causing

00:54:14.680 some

00:54:14.980 kind

00:54:15.220 of

00:54:15.340 difficulty

00:54:15.820 in

00:54:16.140 their

00:54:16.320 lives

00:54:16.780 or

00:54:17.200 a

00:54:18.180 reduction

00:54:18.520 in

00:54:18.780 their

00:54:18.940 quality

00:54:19.240 of

00:54:19.460 life

00:54:19.720 or

00:54:19.880 their

00:54:20.040 standards

00:54:20.340 of

00:54:20.580 living

00:54:20.820 or

00:54:21.160 problems

00:54:21.860 with

00:54:22.060 their

00:54:22.220 boyfriend

00:54:22.620 or

00:54:23.000 whatever

00:54:23.340 but

00:54:24.580 if we

00:54:25.440 accept

00:54:25.800 that

00:54:26.020 it's

00:54:26.280 a

00:54:26.540 form

00:54:26.860 of

00:54:27.040 life

00:54:27.440 yeah

00:54:28.340 i

00:54:29.600 don't

00:54:31.980 i don't

00:54:32.960 see

00:54:33.260 how you

00:54:33.820 can

00:54:34.080 you can

00:54:34.740 in

00:54:35.960 any

00:54:36.380 other

00:54:36.740 context

00:54:37.400 would

00:54:38.880 we

00:54:39.100 ever

00:54:39.440 say

00:54:39.780 well

00:54:40.040 you know

00:54:40.340 what

00:54:40.620 you know

00:54:41.180 francis

00:54:41.640 is

00:54:41.800 inconvenience

00:54:42.520 in

00:54:42.680 me

00:54:42.840 and

00:54:43.020 my

00:54:43.200 quality

00:54:43.480 of

00:54:43.640 life

00:54:43.840 is

00:54:43.940 not

00:54:44.060 quite

00:54:44.240 as

00:54:44.360 good

00:54:44.500 right

00:54:45.580 you

00:54:46.240 feel it

00:54:46.840 but

00:54:48.600 i've

00:54:48.740 never

00:54:48.900 done

00:54:49.160 it

00:54:49.300 that's

00:54:49.440 my

00:54:49.560 point

00:54:49.840 no

00:54:50.140 and

00:54:50.640 i can

00:54:51.580 see

00:54:51.880 where

00:54:52.060 you're

00:54:52.260 coming

00:54:52.480 from

00:54:52.820 pro-life

00:54:53.280 when it

00:54:53.520 comes to

00:54:53.840 francis

00:54:54.360 i'm pro-life

00:54:55.940 when it

00:54:56.160 comes to

00:54:56.440 francis

00:54:56.780 as well

00:54:57.140 no i

00:54:57.440 think

00:54:57.560 that's

00:54:57.820 you know

00:54:58.200 i think

00:54:58.620 you know

00:54:59.620 but look

00:55:00.140 there is

00:55:01.080 no

00:55:01.900 comparable

00:55:03.080 situation

00:55:04.540 is this

00:55:05.100 really it

00:55:05.620 is this

00:55:06.160 really the

00:55:06.620 thing

00:55:06.880 this is

00:55:07.740 not going

00:55:08.100 to get

00:55:08.340 resolved

00:55:08.720 and that's

00:55:09.200 because you

00:55:09.680 have

00:55:10.000 two

00:55:10.540 conflicting

00:55:11.260 sets

00:55:11.700 of rights

00:55:12.220 that are

00:55:12.880 very very

00:55:13.460 important

00:55:13.860 that we

00:55:14.180 hold in

00:55:14.560 very high

00:55:15.060 regard

00:55:15.380 which is

00:55:15.800 independence

00:55:16.500 and bodily

00:55:17.040 autonomy

00:55:17.420 on the

00:55:17.700 one hand

00:55:18.120 and your

00:55:18.760 right to

00:55:19.100 life

00:55:19.300 on the

00:55:19.580 other

00:55:19.720 and these

00:55:20.320 issues

00:55:20.620 are just

00:55:21.080 physiologically

00:55:21.820 in conflict

00:55:22.640 you can't

00:55:23.220 detach them

00:55:23.660 from each

00:55:24.000 other

00:55:24.160 we're always

00:55:24.800 going to be

00:55:25.160 in this

00:55:25.420 situation

00:55:25.860 there is

00:55:26.240 no right

00:55:26.600 answer

00:55:26.940 i think

00:55:28.040 that it

00:55:28.720 is actually

00:55:29.820 like that

00:55:30.600 there is

00:55:31.320 no halfway

00:55:32.360 house on

00:55:33.620 it but i

00:55:34.180 think

00:55:34.800 what is an

00:55:36.100 interesting thing

00:55:36.900 here is

00:55:37.860 the and i

00:55:38.700 don't want to

00:55:39.100 introduce a

00:55:39.660 huge amount

00:55:40.160 of marital

00:55:40.620 discord

00:55:41.180 into your

00:55:43.280 relationship

00:55:44.100 or whatever

00:55:45.500 but i think

00:55:47.640 that when

00:55:48.660 you say

00:55:49.480 oh it's

00:55:50.300 just a

00:55:50.580 matter of

00:55:50.840 inconvenience

00:55:51.640 or it's

00:55:52.120 just a

00:55:52.360 matter of

00:55:52.620 you know

00:55:53.060 and it's

00:55:53.500 just and

00:55:54.080 all of

00:55:54.500 this

00:55:54.700 weighed

00:55:55.140 up

00:55:55.620 you might

00:55:58.880 want to

00:55:59.180 talk to

00:55:59.540 someone

00:55:59.960 to a

00:56:00.920 woman who

00:56:01.580 is eight

00:56:02.220 months

00:56:02.520 pregnant

00:56:02.880 about what

00:56:04.260 it means

00:56:05.440 to be

00:56:06.920 pregnant

00:56:07.280 what

00:56:08.760 pregnancy

00:56:09.560 means

00:56:10.400 what

00:56:11.460 giving

00:56:13.040 birth to

00:56:13.880 a child

00:56:14.460 means

00:56:15.240 and all

00:56:17.600 of the

00:56:18.020 stuff

00:56:18.660 that goes

00:56:20.340 with it

00:56:21.080 physically

00:56:21.740 and emotionally

00:56:23.700 and

00:56:25.060 think about

00:56:27.220 whether

00:56:28.180 how

00:56:29.740 think about

00:56:31.340 how

00:56:32.000 reasonable

00:56:33.100 it is

00:56:33.900 to

00:56:35.140 say to

00:56:36.080 somebody

00:56:36.540 who

00:56:37.900 absolutely

00:56:39.320 does

00:56:40.420 not

00:56:41.120 want

00:56:41.940 that

00:56:42.440 to

00:56:42.920 happen

00:56:43.260 to

00:56:43.820 her

00:56:44.360 to

00:56:45.520 go

00:56:46.260 through

00:56:46.540 that

00:56:46.900 hold on

00:56:47.660 but that

00:56:48.160 isn't what

00:56:48.580 we're talking

00:56:49.020 about

00:56:49.280 we're talking

00:56:49.740 about the

00:56:50.160 example you

00:56:50.760 gave of

00:56:51.180 the woman

00:56:51.580 in Brixton

00:56:52.120 who would

00:56:52.960 quite happily

00:56:53.540 have had

00:56:53.900 the baby

00:56:54.340 if her

00:56:54.860 boyfriend

00:56:55.160 was in

00:56:55.560 another

00:56:55.780 country

00:56:56.200 so we're

00:56:57.460 not talking

00:56:57.840 about someone

00:56:58.300 who doesn't

00:56:58.820 want to

00:56:59.200 have the

00:56:59.520 baby

00:56:59.740 we're

00:56:59.960 talking

00:57:00.180 about

00:57:00.460 someone

00:57:00.800 who doesn't

00:57:01.580 want to

00:57:01.940 have the

00:57:02.220 baby

00:57:02.500 because it

00:57:03.440 inconveniences

00:57:04.420 them in

00:57:05.100 terms of

00:57:05.460 their

00:57:05.660 relationships

00:57:06.220 with other

00:57:06.740 people in

00:57:07.200 their life

00:57:07.580 oh no

00:57:08.300 I think

00:57:09.100 what I

00:57:10.280 was hearing

00:57:11.020 from that

00:57:11.900 story

00:57:12.360 and again

00:57:12.980 I think

00:57:13.440 it comes

00:57:13.800 down to

00:57:14.820 what goes

00:57:16.220 on with

00:57:17.120 this

00:57:17.520 is that

00:57:18.620 what I

00:57:19.160 heard

00:57:19.760 listening to

00:57:20.900 her

00:57:21.300 was that

00:57:22.200 she has

00:57:22.980 a son

00:57:23.860 who has

00:57:24.380 a very

00:57:25.180 important

00:57:25.700 relationship

00:57:26.340 with his

00:57:26.840 father

00:57:27.300 which would

00:57:28.660 be

00:57:29.240 blown

00:57:30.440 apart

00:57:31.160 if

00:57:32.660 another

00:57:33.620 man

00:57:34.180 is

00:57:34.780 introduced

00:57:35.360 into

00:57:36.660 the

00:57:36.900 mix

00:57:37.380 being

00:57:38.320 the

00:57:38.660 father

00:57:39.060 of

00:57:39.840 another

00:57:40.120 child

00:57:40.820 that

00:57:41.780 is

00:57:42.060 introduced

00:57:43.120 into

00:57:44.000 the

00:57:44.200 family

00:57:44.640 and

00:57:45.720 you're

00:57:47.080 right

00:57:47.400 it's

00:57:47.940 not

00:57:48.180 the

00:57:48.440 destruction

00:57:49.160 of

00:57:50.920 the

00:57:51.960 physicality

00:57:53.120 of

00:57:53.700 life

00:57:54.500 it's

00:57:54.860 not

00:57:55.000 the

00:57:55.180 stopping

00:57:55.460 of a

00:57:55.800 beating

00:57:56.080 heart

00:57:56.740 but

00:57:57.620 what

00:57:57.900 she

00:57:58.080 was

00:57:58.320 anticipating

00:57:59.240 was

00:58:00.260 the

00:58:00.500 end

00:58:01.080 of

00:58:01.320 life

00:58:01.860 as

00:58:02.480 we

00:58:02.800 know

00:58:03.120 it

00:58:03.320 it's

00:58:03.860 not

00:58:04.120 an

00:58:04.280 inconvenience

00:58:05.240 it's

00:58:06.000 not

00:58:06.300 just

00:58:07.460 things

00:58:07.820 being

00:58:08.100 a bit

00:58:08.360 disrupted

00:58:09.120 it's

00:58:10.260 the

00:58:10.460 end

00:58:10.880 of

00:58:11.040 her

00:58:11.240 family

00:58:11.620 situation

00:58:12.420 and

00:58:13.080 that

00:58:13.260 is

00:58:13.440 very

00:58:13.680 often

00:58:14.120 what

00:58:14.460 you

00:58:14.700 hear

00:58:15.080 from

00:58:15.360 women

00:58:15.680 is

00:58:16.840 I

00:58:18.540 cannot

00:58:19.420 cope

00:58:20.340 with

00:58:21.180 having

00:58:21.820 this

00:58:22.960 child

00:58:23.580 and

00:58:24.040 I'll

00:58:24.200 often

00:58:24.540 refer

00:58:25.460 to

00:58:26.260 what

00:58:27.680 other

00:58:27.880 people

00:58:28.080 will

00:58:28.240 call

00:58:28.420 a

00:58:28.580 fetus

00:58:29.060 or

00:58:29.280 an

00:58:29.420 embryo

00:58:29.780 I

00:58:29.960 cannot

00:58:30.240 have

00:58:30.720 this

00:58:31.580 baby

00:58:32.240 and

00:58:33.020 hold

00:58:33.440 my

00:58:33.700 existing

00:58:34.120 family

00:58:34.560 together

00:58:35.040 and

00:58:36.280 I

00:58:37.200 think

00:58:37.640 that

00:58:38.080 it's

00:58:38.920 all

00:58:39.400 about

00:58:39.960 context

00:58:41.180 and

00:58:42.060 it's

00:58:42.260 all

00:58:42.420 about

00:58:42.660 who

00:58:42.880 decides

00:58:43.500 and

00:58:44.420 you

00:58:44.980 know

00:58:45.080 how

00:58:45.240 you

00:58:45.360 do

00:58:45.460 it

00:58:45.540 I

00:58:45.620 mean

00:58:45.820 if

00:58:46.560 you

00:58:46.680 want

00:58:46.820 to

00:58:47.000 give

00:58:47.080 you

00:58:47.160 another

00:58:47.560 quick

00:58:47.900 example

00:58:48.200 may

00:58:48.620 I

00:58:49.400 have

00:58:50.200 a

00:58:50.360 friend

00:58:50.640 who

00:58:50.860 was

00:58:51.040 raped

00:58:51.400 and

00:58:52.200 she

00:58:52.640 had

00:58:52.960 the

00:58:53.200 child

00:58:53.540 and

00:58:54.020 she

00:58:54.340 that

00:58:55.120 massively

00:58:55.580 radicalized

00:58:56.500 her

00:58:56.680 into

00:58:56.940 a

00:58:57.180 pro-life

00:58:57.680 position

00:58:58.100 and she

00:58:59.180 says

00:58:59.620 it's

00:59:00.160 not

00:59:00.320 the

00:59:00.480 child's

00:59:00.780 fault

00:59:01.000 it

00:59:01.760 absolutely

00:59:02.200 isn't

00:59:02.540 it's

00:59:02.740 not

00:59:02.920 the

00:59:03.080 child's

00:59:03.420 fault

00:59:03.640 it's

00:59:04.120 nothing

00:59:04.380 to

00:59:04.580 so

00:59:04.980 even

00:59:05.680 if

00:59:05.860 this

00:59:06.080 happened

00:59:06.360 to

00:59:06.580 me

00:59:06.780 and

00:59:06.940 it

00:59:07.040 was

00:59:07.180 awful

00:59:07.560 and

00:59:07.940 all

00:59:08.480 of

00:59:08.600 that

00:59:08.840 it's

00:59:09.380 not

00:59:09.620 the

00:59:09.800 child's

00:59:10.180 fault

00:59:10.300 so

00:59:11.520 so

00:59:11.540 I

00:59:12.120 look

00:59:13.520 I

00:59:14.460 am

00:59:14.960 the

00:59:15.200 last

00:59:15.480 person

00:59:15.840 that

00:59:15.980 wants

00:59:16.140 to

00:59:16.280 tell

00:59:16.440 women

00:59:16.660 what

00:59:16.880 to

00:59:17.020 do

00:59:17.120 with

00:59:17.240 their

00:59:17.380 body

00:59:17.640 but

00:59:18.200 with

00:59:18.380 that

00:59:18.600 argument

00:59:18.980 I'm

00:59:19.200 just

00:59:19.320 being

00:59:19.560 honest

00:59:19.820 with

00:59:19.980 you

00:59:20.120 about

00:59:20.440 my

00:59:20.880 instinctive

00:59:22.140 reaction

00:59:22.580 yes

00:59:23.600 it's

00:59:23.820 important

00:59:24.220 for her

00:59:24.780 little

00:59:25.020 boy

00:59:25.300 to

00:59:25.540 have

00:59:25.780 the

00:59:25.960 relationship

00:59:26.440 with

00:59:26.720 his

00:59:26.860 dad

00:59:27.180 right

00:59:27.840 but

00:59:29.080 the

00:59:29.460 fact

00:59:29.720 that

00:59:29.920 she

00:59:30.200 is

00:59:30.460 pregnant

00:59:30.800 by

00:59:31.080 someone

00:59:31.420 else

00:59:31.800 is

00:59:32.920 not

00:59:33.300 the

00:59:33.760 fault

00:59:34.020 of

00:59:34.200 the

00:59:34.360 baby

00:59:34.620 that

00:59:34.820 she's

00:59:35.080 carrying

00:59:35.420 and

00:59:36.180 the

00:59:36.320 fact

00:59:36.520 that

00:59:36.700 relationship

00:59:37.240 with

00:59:38.060 her

00:59:38.340 former

00:59:39.200 partner

00:59:39.580 may

00:59:39.900 be

00:59:40.160 badly

00:59:40.620 affected

00:59:41.040 and

00:59:41.320 the

00:59:41.500 child

00:59:41.860 that

00:59:42.280 she

00:59:42.380 already

00:59:42.620 has

00:59:42.840 may

00:59:43.000 be

00:59:43.080 badly

00:59:43.340 it's

00:59:43.860 not

00:59:44.100 the

00:59:44.300 fault

00:59:44.520 of

00:59:44.680 the

00:59:44.800 baby

00:59:44.980 that

00:59:45.140 she's

00:59:45.360 carrying

00:59:45.660 and

00:59:45.960 yet

00:59:46.220 that

00:59:46.800 baby

00:59:47.160 is

00:59:47.460 the

00:59:47.600 one

00:59:47.800 that

00:59:48.020 is

00:59:48.180 paying

00:59:48.500 the

00:59:48.720 price

00:59:49.080 for

00:59:49.680 what

00:59:49.900 let's

00:59:50.160 be

00:59:50.320 honest

00:59:50.580 without

00:59:50.780 being

00:59:51.100 judgmental

00:59:51.680 are

00:59:51.940 her

00:59:52.160 decisions

00:59:52.680 yeah

00:59:53.840 but

00:59:54.380 the

00:59:55.220 thing

00:59:55.500 is

00:59:56.000 is

00:59:56.440 that

00:59:56.920 somebody

00:59:59.280 right

01:00:00.360 somebody

01:00:02.200 has

01:00:03.480 to

01:00:03.720 make

01:00:04.280 that

01:00:05.120 moral

01:00:05.880 decision

01:00:06.600 and

01:00:08.060 live

01:00:08.280 with

01:00:08.440 it

01:00:08.620 and

01:00:09.540 I

01:00:09.680 think

01:00:10.020 that

01:00:10.540 you know

01:00:11.860 what

01:00:12.560 I'm

01:00:12.840 saying

01:00:13.360 is

01:00:14.580 that

01:00:15.060 I

01:00:15.820 can

01:00:16.020 understand

01:00:16.760 that

01:00:18.280 you

01:00:18.720 or

01:00:19.700 and a

01:00:20.780 whole

01:00:20.940 number

01:00:21.180 of

01:00:21.340 other

01:00:21.520 people

01:00:22.060 might

01:00:23.360 see

01:00:24.020 that

01:00:25.620 that

01:00:26.960 baby

01:00:29.340 inside

01:00:30.120 her

01:00:30.460 that

01:00:31.520 does

01:00:32.620 not

01:00:33.020 even

01:00:34.520 know

01:00:34.940 that

01:00:35.160 it's

01:00:35.400 alive

01:00:35.960 as

01:00:37.040 having

01:00:37.740 a

01:00:38.600 value

01:00:39.120 that

01:00:39.940 should

01:00:40.580 disrupt

01:00:42.320 those

01:00:42.700 lives

01:00:43.180 and

01:00:44.400 that's

01:00:45.020 okay

01:00:45.660 I

01:00:46.020 understand

01:00:46.660 where

01:00:46.980 people

01:00:47.240 come

01:00:47.480 from

01:00:47.700 on

01:00:47.860 that

01:00:48.140 do

01:00:49.920 you know

01:00:50.180 as I

01:00:50.800 said

01:00:50.980 to you

01:00:51.460 I've

01:00:51.940 and

01:00:52.860 BPAS

01:00:53.700 now

01:00:54.200 actually

01:00:54.740 is

01:00:56.100 running

01:00:57.120 an

01:00:57.800 assisted

01:00:58.180 conception

01:00:58.700 service

01:00:59.280 for

01:00:59.480 women

01:00:59.680 who

01:00:59.880 can't

01:01:00.980 become

01:01:01.340 pregnant

01:01:01.880 because

01:01:02.340 it is

01:01:02.760 thoroughly

01:01:03.800 pro-choice

01:01:04.420 organisation

01:01:05.160 I do

01:01:06.520 not know

01:01:07.360 whether

01:01:08.080 I would

01:01:08.880 ever

01:01:09.420 have been

01:01:10.300 able to

01:01:11.480 face

01:01:12.580 having

01:01:13.320 an

01:01:13.760 abortion

01:01:14.140 myself

01:01:15.520 because

01:01:16.160 I went

01:01:17.520 through

01:01:17.980 a

01:01:18.620 very long

01:01:19.720 period

01:01:20.040 of time

01:01:20.700 when I

01:01:21.620 desperately

01:01:22.380 wanted

01:01:22.920 to be

01:01:23.500 pregnant

01:01:23.860 and I

01:01:24.900 desperately

01:01:25.560 wanted

01:01:26.000 to have

01:01:26.400 a baby

01:01:26.900 and I

01:01:27.720 felt

01:01:27.980 that

01:01:28.220 I

01:01:28.420 couldn't

01:01:28.800 do

01:01:29.060 that

01:01:29.540 now

01:01:30.780 even

01:01:31.800 now

01:01:32.340 you know

01:01:33.140 I

01:01:33.420 have

01:01:33.940 what

01:01:34.760 great

01:01:36.060 contemporary

01:01:36.600 philosopher

01:01:37.100 Ronald

01:01:37.580 Dawkins

01:01:38.380 describes

01:01:40.680 as being

01:01:41.600 a sense

01:01:42.020 of cosmic

01:01:42.880 awe

01:01:43.480 when I

01:01:44.180 look at

01:01:44.720 an embryo

01:01:45.500 it is

01:01:46.040 awesome

01:01:47.100 literally

01:01:48.300 and to

01:01:49.340 think of

01:01:49.820 ending

01:01:50.320 that

01:01:50.820 and cutting

01:01:51.440 it off

01:01:51.980 seems

01:01:52.880 incredibly

01:01:54.280 profound

01:01:55.000 but you

01:01:56.740 know

01:01:57.120 I'm not

01:01:59.120 going to

01:01:59.380 live with

01:01:59.700 the

01:01:59.840 consequences

01:02:00.420 of that

01:02:02.200 she is

01:02:04.220 and that's

01:02:05.240 why I

01:02:05.480 think we

01:02:05.760 all look

01:02:06.460 at these

01:02:06.860 things

01:02:07.320 differently

01:02:07.980 and that's

01:02:09.960 why you

01:02:10.620 know the

01:02:10.880 case that

01:02:11.620 I'm really

01:02:12.140 trying to

01:02:12.680 make when

01:02:13.140 I'm

01:02:13.520 writing

01:02:14.120 is these

01:02:15.380 things are

01:02:15.860 nuanced

01:02:16.460 and they're

01:02:17.660 difficult

01:02:18.000 and there

01:02:18.540 are arguments

01:02:19.120 that you

01:02:19.860 can put

01:02:20.360 for and

01:02:20.900 against

01:02:21.240 and we

01:02:21.580 can discuss

01:02:22.200 it

01:02:22.460 philosophically

01:02:23.540 but

01:02:25.220 somebody's

01:02:26.560 making a

01:02:26.960 decision

01:02:27.340 and I

01:02:28.940 have seen

01:02:29.540 women in

01:02:30.180 Bpass

01:02:30.740 clinics

01:02:31.100 who've

01:02:32.200 said I

01:02:33.180 never

01:02:33.820 thought I

01:02:34.560 would bring

01:02:36.100 myself to

01:02:37.080 have an

01:02:37.980 abortion

01:02:38.400 I've had

01:02:40.080 women who

01:02:40.560 have protested

01:02:41.560 outside abortion

01:02:42.600 clinics

01:02:42.980 who when

01:02:44.740 they have

01:02:45.180 faced that

01:02:45.660 line on

01:02:46.080 the pregnancy

01:02:46.520 test

01:02:47.160 have

01:02:48.280 suddenly

01:02:49.900 realised

01:02:50.560 that this

01:02:52.180 was not

01:02:52.540 going to

01:02:52.760 work for

01:02:53.140 them

01:02:53.400 at the

01:02:54.280 same

01:02:54.500 time

01:02:55.020 I've

01:02:55.660 had

01:02:55.880 women

01:02:56.200 who

01:02:56.880 have

01:02:58.000 been

01:02:58.300 absolutely

01:02:59.240 100%

01:03:01.000 pro-choice

01:03:01.880 100%

01:03:03.240 they've

01:03:03.520 been on

01:03:03.860 the marches

01:03:04.760 they bought

01:03:05.160 the t-shirt

01:03:05.900 they've got

01:03:06.280 the sticker

01:03:06.880 and yet

01:03:08.160 when they

01:03:08.820 become

01:03:09.140 pregnant

01:03:09.520 they found

01:03:10.500 that

01:03:11.060 they felt

01:03:12.440 an

01:03:12.760 overwhelming

01:03:13.820 sense

01:03:15.360 of

01:03:16.340 nurturing

01:03:17.640 for

01:03:18.900 that

01:03:19.460 child

01:03:19.960 and

01:03:21.120 and

01:03:21.140 I

01:03:21.560 think

01:03:21.700 in

01:03:21.900 these

01:03:22.380 circumstances

01:03:23.540 when

01:03:24.600 things

01:03:25.060 are

01:03:25.280 this

01:03:25.920 kind

01:03:26.460 of

01:03:27.060 personal

01:03:28.320 the

01:03:29.460 best

01:03:30.260 thing

01:03:30.600 that

01:03:30.820 we

01:03:30.960 can

01:03:31.200 do

01:03:31.760 is

01:03:32.460 to

01:03:32.920 accept

01:03:33.820 that

01:03:34.400 there's

01:03:35.740 lots of

01:03:36.220 philosophy

01:03:36.700 going on

01:03:37.400 and

01:03:38.860 you know

01:03:40.340 if

01:03:41.040 people

01:03:41.720 looking at

01:03:42.800 the podcast

01:03:43.180 want to

01:03:44.460 you know

01:03:45.720 read a copy

01:03:47.000 of the book

01:03:47.340 there's a lot

01:03:48.300 of it in

01:03:48.700 there

01:03:48.980 there's a

01:03:49.640 woman called

01:03:50.060 Judith

01:03:50.360 Jarvis

01:03:50.980 Thompson

01:03:51.340 we talk

01:03:51.960 about

01:03:52.460 you know

01:03:53.180 kind of

01:03:54.400 comparable

01:03:55.020 situations

01:03:55.880 she

01:03:56.640 did this

01:03:57.820 thing

01:03:58.000 that

01:03:58.260 philosophers

01:03:58.720 do

01:03:59.260 of

01:03:59.680 constructing

01:04:00.600 this

01:04:00.880 mind

01:04:01.160 experiment

01:04:01.780 of a

01:04:02.800 violinist

01:04:04.300 who

01:04:04.840 wakes up

01:04:06.200 and

01:04:06.820 somebody's

01:04:07.700 attached

01:04:08.540 him

01:04:09.080 to

01:04:09.720 another

01:04:10.900 person

01:04:11.580 like with

01:04:12.400 an

01:04:12.540 artificial

01:04:12.960 umbilical

01:04:13.600 cord

01:04:13.980 and he's

01:04:14.240 basically

01:04:14.600 saying

01:04:15.100 look you

01:04:15.420 just have

01:04:15.820 to

01:04:16.080 put up

01:04:17.020 with

01:04:17.160 them

01:04:17.440 for

01:04:17.900 oh it's

01:04:19.760 a violinist

01:04:20.440 who's been

01:04:20.760 attached to

01:04:21.300 somebody

01:04:21.660 who

01:04:22.440 you just

01:04:23.460 have to

01:04:24.080 you know

01:04:24.620 put up

01:04:25.160 with

01:04:25.340 them

01:04:25.540 for

01:04:25.800 nine

01:04:26.240 months

01:04:26.700 but

01:04:27.160 you

01:04:27.420 really

01:04:27.740 need

01:04:27.960 to

01:04:28.100 do

01:04:28.260 this

01:04:28.520 because

01:04:28.800 they're

01:04:29.040 a

01:04:29.160 world

01:04:29.320 famous

01:04:29.660 violinist

01:04:30.280 and

01:04:30.460 I'll

01:04:30.680 die

01:04:31.020 if

01:04:31.240 you

01:04:31.360 don't

01:04:31.560 put up

01:04:31.860 with

01:04:31.980 this

01:04:32.180 inconvenience

01:04:33.260 and of

01:04:34.280 course

01:04:34.520 you would

01:04:35.040 never

01:04:35.360 let it

01:04:35.700 happen

01:04:36.040 um

01:04:37.640 and she

01:04:38.020 says

01:04:38.200 and that's

01:04:38.540 a born

01:04:38.960 person

01:04:39.540 who's

01:04:40.040 a

01:04:40.160 famous

01:04:40.460 violinist

01:04:41.220 it's

01:04:41.480 not

01:04:41.660 even

01:04:42.020 you can't

01:04:42.800 even

01:04:42.960 make

01:04:43.160 the

01:04:43.320 argument

01:04:43.680 that

01:04:44.040 it

01:04:44.220 has

01:04:44.720 no

01:04:45.040 sense

01:04:45.420 of

01:04:45.540 itself

01:04:45.920 yet

01:04:46.300 um

01:04:47.640 so you

01:04:48.360 can

01:04:48.500 do

01:04:48.700 all

01:04:48.900 the

01:04:49.020 philosophy

01:04:49.480 you

01:04:50.560 can

01:04:51.020 do

01:04:51.400 all

01:04:51.580 of

01:04:51.660 the

01:04:51.800 science

01:04:52.280 but

01:04:53.460 at

01:04:53.580 the

01:04:53.760 end

01:04:54.040 of

01:04:54.200 the

01:04:54.300 day

01:04:54.680 it's

01:04:56.480 down

01:04:56.680 to

01:04:56.840 a

01:04:56.960 person

01:04:57.280 to

01:04:57.920 make

01:04:58.180 a

01:04:58.300 decision

01:04:58.640 about

01:04:58.940 something

01:04:59.300 that's

01:04:59.660 going

01:04:59.860 on

01:05:00.060 in

01:05:00.200 their

01:05:00.360 life

01:05:00.780 and

01:05:01.940 I

01:05:02.420 think

01:05:02.620 we

01:05:03.060 have

01:05:03.300 to

01:05:03.420 have

01:05:03.600 a

01:05:03.700 load

01:05:03.840 of

01:05:03.940 these

01:05:04.140 arguments

01:05:04.560 but

01:05:05.080 ultimately

01:05:05.620 they

01:05:06.040 have

01:05:06.300 to

01:05:06.460 make

01:05:06.980 the

01:05:07.120 decision

01:05:07.540 do

01:05:08.120 you

01:05:08.200 have

01:05:08.340 sympathy

01:05:08.720 for

01:05:08.940 the

01:05:09.060 pro-life

01:05:09.640 side

01:05:10.480 of the

01:05:10.660 argument

01:05:10.940 and

01:05:11.140 pro-life

01:05:11.600 people

01:05:11.960 because

01:05:12.380 frequently

01:05:13.520 in this

01:05:13.940 country

01:05:14.240 they're

01:05:14.700 mischaracterized

01:05:16.220 they're

01:05:16.940 seen as

01:05:17.440 being

01:05:17.640 bigoted

01:05:18.280 hating

01:05:19.340 women

01:05:19.840 we all

01:05:20.940 know

01:05:21.140 the

01:05:21.480 slurs

01:05:22.460 that get

01:05:22.740 thrown

01:05:23.000 at

01:05:23.180 them

01:05:23.380 I

01:05:23.960 yeah

01:05:24.380 I

01:05:24.880 do

01:05:25.680 you

01:05:25.740 know

01:05:25.860 what

01:05:26.120 I

01:05:27.080 you

01:05:28.280 know

01:05:28.760 I

01:05:29.160 think

01:05:29.520 at

01:05:30.720 the

01:05:30.900 moment

01:05:31.400 there

01:05:32.780 is

01:05:33.180 a

01:05:33.600 profound

01:05:34.440 intolerance

01:05:36.380 of

01:05:37.380 the

01:05:37.560 questioning

01:05:38.100 of

01:05:39.780 the

01:05:40.700 moral

01:05:45.620 issues

01:05:46.380 and the

01:05:46.760 legal

01:05:46.980 issues

01:05:47.700 around

01:05:48.400 abortion

01:05:49.640 and

01:05:50.520 I

01:05:50.940 think

01:05:51.320 that

01:05:51.600 one

01:05:51.840 of

01:05:51.960 the

01:05:52.100 things

01:05:52.440 that

01:05:52.740 troubles

01:05:53.280 me

01:05:53.840 is

01:05:54.960 that

01:05:55.540 abortion

01:05:56.860 is

01:05:57.880 now

01:05:59.560 regarded

01:06:00.200 as a

01:06:00.940 medical

01:06:01.680 procedure

01:06:02.520 that

01:06:02.960 you

01:06:03.160 just

01:06:03.460 kind

01:06:03.820 of

01:06:03.960 can't

01:06:04.500 take

01:06:04.760 anything

01:06:05.240 other

01:06:05.720 than

01:06:07.100 a

01:06:08.720 kind

01:06:08.980 of

01:06:09.180 almost

01:06:09.680 public

01:06:10.980 health

01:06:11.440 benefit

01:06:12.000 view

01:06:12.720 on

01:06:13.140 and I

01:06:14.160 think

01:06:14.420 it does

01:06:14.840 miss out

01:06:15.300 the fact

01:06:15.740 that

01:06:16.160 there are

01:06:16.720 a lot

01:06:17.040 of

01:06:17.220 moral

01:06:17.520 issues

01:06:18.520 that are

01:06:19.500 around

01:06:19.920 and that

01:06:20.340 we should

01:06:20.680 constantly

01:06:21.260 be talking

01:06:21.880 about

01:06:22.380 and

01:06:23.000 debating

01:06:23.860 and I

01:06:25.180 made the

01:06:25.700 point

01:06:26.020 earlier

01:06:26.580 I know

01:06:26.980 when I

01:06:27.260 was talking

01:06:27.660 to you

01:06:28.220 that

01:06:28.560 I think

01:06:29.600 that

01:06:30.080 we have

01:06:30.960 to regard

01:06:31.600 it as

01:06:32.480 a method

01:06:33.320 of birth

01:06:33.780 control

01:06:34.400 and I

01:06:35.240 think

01:06:35.500 in a

01:06:35.820 society

01:06:36.520 that

01:06:37.580 wants

01:06:38.140 to

01:06:38.880 allow

01:06:40.620 people

01:06:41.820 full

01:06:42.820 control

01:06:43.400 over

01:06:44.000 who they

01:06:45.600 have

01:06:46.280 a child

01:06:47.720 with

01:06:48.320 and

01:06:49.100 when they

01:06:50.200 have

01:06:50.640 a baby

01:06:51.420 abortion

01:06:53.460 needs

01:06:54.200 to be

01:06:54.580 seen

01:06:54.920 as a

01:06:55.220 method

01:06:55.440 of

01:06:55.620 contraception

01:06:56.520 but I

01:06:57.260 don't

01:06:57.460 think

01:06:57.660 we

01:06:57.820 should

01:06:58.000 ever

01:06:58.360 forget

01:06:58.940 the

01:06:59.740 points

01:07:00.040 that

01:07:00.260 you're

01:07:00.720 raising

01:07:01.360 about

01:07:01.840 that

01:07:02.140 there

01:07:02.340 is

01:07:02.540 something

01:07:03.040 that

01:07:03.980 seems

01:07:04.320 to be

01:07:04.760 fundamentally

01:07:05.540 morally

01:07:06.480 different

01:07:07.080 about

01:07:08.380 ending

01:07:09.000 a life

01:07:10.360 to not

01:07:11.400 starting

01:07:12.100 a life

01:07:13.400 and I

01:07:14.320 think

01:07:14.560 we have

01:07:15.100 to keep

01:07:15.520 that

01:07:15.960 question

01:07:16.640 debated

01:07:17.940 and thought

01:07:18.680 about

01:07:19.100 because I

01:07:19.900 actually

01:07:20.200 you know

01:07:20.660 I think

01:07:21.260 women

01:07:21.500 think

01:07:21.800 about

01:07:22.060 it

01:07:22.320 you know

01:07:23.800 I think

01:07:24.360 and women

01:07:25.420 will say

01:07:26.160 you know

01:07:27.420 I'll have

01:07:27.900 an abortion

01:07:28.240 if I can

01:07:28.840 have it

01:07:29.660 using that

01:07:30.180 pill

01:07:30.480 and

01:07:30.960 within

01:07:31.920 the first

01:07:33.020 couple of

01:07:33.720 months

01:07:34.100 but I

01:07:34.560 wouldn't

01:07:34.760 have an

01:07:35.040 abortion

01:07:35.300 after that

01:07:35.980 so women

01:07:36.880 are thinking

01:07:37.320 about it

01:07:37.920 we don't

01:07:38.700 we don't

01:07:39.360 lose

01:07:39.940 anything

01:07:40.360 by

01:07:41.720 accepting

01:07:42.680 that

01:07:43.360 and

01:07:44.640 the

01:07:45.200 demonization

01:07:46.460 of

01:07:48.200 people

01:07:49.200 who

01:07:49.760 seek

01:07:50.360 to

01:07:50.540 question

01:07:50.960 it

01:07:51.260 is

01:07:51.720 utterly

01:07:52.840 wrong

01:07:53.740 and one

01:07:54.780 of the

01:07:55.020 things

01:07:55.260 that I

01:07:55.580 really

01:07:56.100 have

01:07:56.360 tried

01:07:56.800 to

01:07:57.120 do

01:07:57.620 when I

01:07:58.780 was

01:07:59.440 writing

01:08:00.160 this

01:08:00.660 book

01:08:01.180 was to

01:08:02.380 think

01:08:02.860 about

01:08:03.180 the

01:08:03.420 discussions

01:08:03.940 that I've

01:08:05.020 had

01:08:05.420 with

01:08:06.420 people

01:08:06.840 who

01:08:07.420 are

01:08:08.100 against

01:08:08.820 abortion

01:08:09.760 in

01:08:10.000 principle

01:08:10.460 and try

01:08:11.660 and think

01:08:11.940 about how

01:08:12.440 I deal

01:08:13.000 with those

01:08:13.580 arguments

01:08:14.060 and

01:08:14.780 yeah

01:08:16.760 that's a

01:08:18.580 good

01:08:18.720 point

01:08:19.220 because

01:08:21.440 I think

01:08:22.800 we need

01:08:24.440 to do

01:08:25.400 that on

01:08:25.720 a lot

01:08:25.900 of other

01:08:26.180 things

01:08:26.480 as well

01:08:26.860 actually

01:08:27.260 it would

01:08:27.700 have been

01:08:27.880 very helpful

01:08:28.400 if we

01:08:28.700 could have

01:08:28.940 had some

01:08:29.360 of those

01:08:29.620 discussions

01:08:30.060 about

01:08:30.440 Covid

01:08:30.820 for example

01:08:32.000 rather than

01:08:33.860 your pro

01:08:34.840 vax

01:08:35.180 your anti

01:08:35.660 vax

01:08:36.240 your pro

01:08:37.980 choice

01:08:38.400 your anti

01:08:38.840 choice

01:08:39.360 we need

01:08:40.660 more of a

01:08:41.340 space

01:08:41.900 where we

01:08:42.340 can consider

01:08:43.120 and have

01:08:43.520 grown up

01:08:44.220 intelligent

01:08:44.880 discussions

01:08:45.440 I think

01:08:46.140 well for

01:08:46.920 that reason

01:08:47.360 it's been a

01:08:47.760 pleasure having

01:08:48.260 you on the

01:08:48.680 show and

01:08:49.040 before we

01:08:51.220 ask our

01:08:52.920 questions for

01:08:53.520 our supporters

01:08:54.160 for our local

01:08:54.720 supporters that

01:08:55.700 they've already

01:08:56.140 asked and

01:08:57.500 we wrap up

01:08:58.080 the interview

01:08:58.460 we've always

01:08:59.660 got one

01:09:00.420 final question

01:09:01.040 for you

01:09:01.380 which is

01:09:01.680 what's the

01:09:02.100 one thing

01:09:02.420 we're not

01:09:02.780 talking about

01:09:03.480 as a society

01:09:04.220 that you

01:09:04.580 think we

01:09:04.900 should be

01:09:05.260 I think

01:09:06.840 what we're

01:09:07.140 not talking

01:09:07.660 about is

01:09:08.840 the M

01:09:10.040 word

01:09:10.600 the moral

01:09:11.720 word

01:09:12.640 whether

01:09:13.400 something

01:09:13.900 is right

01:09:14.800 or whether

01:09:15.960 it's wrong

01:09:16.960 and I

01:09:17.980 think

01:09:18.480 today

01:09:19.780 being

01:09:20.900 non-judgmental

01:09:22.820 is somehow

01:09:24.680 valorised

01:09:26.080 as a

01:09:28.520 you know

01:09:30.740 as a value

01:09:31.480 that we

01:09:32.400 should all

01:09:32.820 accord with

01:09:33.700 and

01:09:34.800 it seemed

01:09:36.520 to be a

01:09:37.300 very bad

01:09:37.960 thing indeed

01:09:38.960 ironically

01:09:40.480 to make

01:09:41.300 judgements

01:09:42.020 about

01:09:42.840 things

01:09:43.480 and I

01:09:44.860 think we

01:09:45.760 really need

01:09:47.280 to find

01:09:49.280 a way

01:09:50.380 of

01:09:51.340 framing

01:09:53.420 what we

01:09:54.640 think is

01:09:55.680 right

01:09:56.280 and what we

01:09:57.420 think is

01:09:58.040 wrong

01:09:58.600 without the

01:10:00.300 reference to

01:10:01.260 the perhaps

01:10:02.480 the old

01:10:02.860 Christian ideals

01:10:03.860 that used

01:10:05.160 to hold

01:10:05.620 things

01:10:06.020 together

01:10:06.520 and

01:10:08.500 I say

01:10:09.780 that's one

01:10:10.440 of the

01:10:10.640 things that

01:10:11.080 I really

01:10:11.420 want to

01:10:11.800 tackle

01:10:12.040 and loads

01:10:12.400 of people

01:10:12.700 said to

01:10:13.120 me

01:10:13.260 don't

01:10:14.060 call it

01:10:14.720 the moral

01:10:15.640 case

01:10:16.280 call it

01:10:17.300 ethics

01:10:18.040 call it

01:10:18.900 something

01:10:19.800 else

01:10:20.320 and I

01:10:21.140 think we

01:10:21.560 just have

01:10:21.980 to face

01:10:22.460 up to

01:10:22.780 the fact

01:10:23.160 that as

01:10:24.460 people we

01:10:25.220 need a

01:10:25.620 moral code

01:10:26.660 and my

01:10:27.760 moral code

01:10:29.440 here is

01:10:30.300 not a

01:10:30.640 judgmental

01:10:31.120 one I'm

01:10:31.600 saying it's

01:10:32.440 absolutely

01:10:33.000 right that

01:10:35.400 people should

01:10:36.080 be able to

01:10:36.780 decide on

01:10:39.260 matters of

01:10:40.240 conscience for

01:10:40.920 themselves and

01:10:42.140 on matters of

01:10:42.780 their own bodily

01:10:43.380 integrity for

01:10:44.380 themselves that's

01:10:45.140 what autonomy is

01:10:45.840 about and

01:10:46.640 that's what I

01:10:47.100 stand for

01:10:47.620 that is a

01:10:48.600 fantastic place

01:10:49.820 to end the

01:10:50.180 interview and

01:10:50.940 if people want

01:10:51.400 to find you

01:10:51.820 online where

01:10:52.380 is the best

01:10:52.780 place to do

01:10:53.380 that other

01:10:53.740 than buying

01:10:54.160 the moral

01:10:54.480 case for

01:10:54.860 abortion if

01:10:55.340 they want to

01:10:56.920 do that look

01:10:57.840 me up on

01:10:58.340 Twitter I

01:10:59.160 tweet in my

01:11:00.080 own name

01:11:00.740 that's

01:11:02.900 probably the

01:11:03.260 best place

01:11:03.720 for them to

01:11:04.200 find me

01:11:04.760 why is it

01:11:07.460 that a woman

01:11:08.200 is allowed to

01:11:08.800 forego the

01:11:09.300 responsibilities of

01:11:10.260 being a mother

01:11:10.740 either by

01:11:11.680 adopting or

01:11:12.340 aborting but a

01:11:13.480 man cannot do

01:11:14.540 the same

TRIGGERnometry - May 12, 2022

The Case for Abortion - Ann Furedi

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