Zoran Mamdani is the Democratic nominee to become the next mayor of New York City, and by all measures, he could be the future of the Democratic Party. But who is he really? And why does he matter? In this episode, we take a deep dive into who he is, why he s running for mayor, and how he got there.
00:05:06.000But his father is a professor at Columbia University who specializes in colonization and decolonization studies.
00:05:14.000And so this is a guy who is seeped in an academic leftist ideology.
00:05:26.000I mean, look, some of the things you're talking about, there's quite a lot of people in the Democratic Party who think capitalism is theft.
00:05:33.000There's quite a lot of people in this country who are pro-Palestine or anti-Israel, whichever way you want to frame it.
00:05:39.000The thing that I saw in an article that you wrote that I think is the most staggering is that he repeatedly said that he wanted to defund the police.
00:05:55.000He literally said over and over, we need to defund the police.
00:05:58.000And the reason I bring this up is, as mayor of New York, if you believe in defunding the police or you have said that in the past, now sure, you are going to walk it back because everyone understands New York needs police.
00:06:13.000But what that means for a city that's already struggling with crime, I don't get it.
00:06:41.000So, yeah, when you go on the subway, I mean, commonly when I leave my apartment, I'm asked for money, you know, five, seven times.
00:06:52.000So, but yeah, so regarding the police, he has said over and over again, that's those tweets from 2020 I was talking about, that he wants to defund the police.
00:07:04.000He called them anti-queer, racist, etc. And now he is trying to undo some of that damage.
00:07:13.000But the damage has already been done because I spoke to police officers who said that they're just going to retire if Zoran is elected.
00:07:22.000Because he said things like that he wants to give disciplinary review and authority to this review board, this disciplinary board, instead of the police commissioner.
00:07:39.000And a lot of officers feel like, well, you know, I'm already always one, one second away from a potential lawsuit because all of these regulations and the body cams and etc., etc.
00:07:54.000So, officers feel like their job could not only be more dangerous because they feel like Mom Donnie could potentially stoke anti-police sentiment, but that, you know, they really worry, they sincerely worry about ending up in prison because they feel like if Zoran becomes the mayor, he's just not going to have their back.
00:08:21.560I think it's really important that we've touched on some very interesting things, but one thing that I really want to know is, who is Zoran Mamdani?
00:08:29.440Like I said, we've touched on it a little bit, but I really want to delve into this.
00:08:32.920And how has he come to this position of prominence?
00:08:35.380Like, I follow American politics pretty closely.
00:09:03.680So it reminds me a lot of 2016, leading up to the primary, Zoran was not, polling said that Cuomo, the former governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, this is a guy who once was talked about as a presidential, potential presidential candidate.
00:09:22.780So polling was showing that Andrew Cuomo, he had this in the bag.
00:09:27.120And yet I really felt like it was going to be Zoran.
00:09:31.420I mean, I would be on the subway and all, all the cool people, they were, they were carrying hot girls for Zoran bags.
00:09:40.240It became a huge trend on social media to post his support.
00:09:44.900He was getting all these endorsements that typically would go to someone like Cuomo.
00:09:52.300But yeah, a year ago, he was polling at 1% and just had this meteoric rise.
00:10:48.400He lives there for a little less than two years and decides he's going to run for the state house.
00:10:55.820And even in that race, he ran against, um, an incumbent who had been on the job for a decade.
00:11:05.740And, you know, he was the underdog then.
00:11:08.900That's, that's the main thread of Zoran's entire career is he's always been the underdog and he's always made the impossible happen.
00:11:16.960And so he won his state house seat by a couple hundred votes.
00:11:22.720Um, and when he was in the state house, well, there's something we haven't gotten to yet, which is the, the real connective tissue of his politics is, is Israel and, and Palestine.
00:11:34.940And so his main bill that he, uh, introduced in the state legislature was an act that was intended to penalize nonprofits that might've had connections to settlements in the West Bank.
00:11:50.280Um, and he has said over and over again in interviews that Palestine is why I got into politics.
00:11:59.380He, yeah. Okay. Now you're getting interested. Yeah.
00:12:03.160No, I was interested before, but that is, that is a pretty bold statement because that's not about what's going on in New York.
00:12:10.760I understand if you've come from a left-wing persuasion, which I have some empathy for, I'll be honest.
00:12:15.820And you see, you know, poor people struggling. You go, that's why I got into politics. Look, that makes sense.
00:12:20.200But Palestine is why I got into politics. That's nothing to do.
00:12:23.140It is, it is interesting. Um, especially because, you know, he, a talking point that a lot of his supporters say, uh, in response to how much he is pressed on Israel, they say, guys, he's not running to be mayor of Tel Aviv.
00:12:38.400And yet, when he talks about this issue, there are so many things he could say about the domestic impact. I mean, I think October 7th changed New York City.
00:12:50.860It just feels different, I think, to a lot of Jewish New Yorkers. And yet, he hardly ever talks about the real implications here.
00:13:00.280When he releases statements, it's, it's genuinely all about foreign policy.
00:13:04.200But yeah, so he, when he was in college, he went to a pretty fancy school called Bowdoin.
00:13:09.980Now it costs nearly $100,000 a year. Um, he co-founded the school's chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine, which is a pretty radical group.
00:13:23.160Uh, after October 7th, it released a statement that was, was, uh, basically a condemnation of Israel.
00:13:32.460Uh, so, yeah, this is another topic, uh, in, on which he has attempted to moderate on.
00:13:39.580But when you go back to his past, he really comes at it from this, this radical academic, uh, history.
00:13:47.500And so, he was in the statehouse, he got elected, he was an underdog, which, by the way, and I think we need to talk about this as well,
00:13:54.200whatever we think about him, this marks him out as a very talented politician.
00:13:57.640Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I, I saw a clip recently. I mean, as, as we've said, I read all of his tweets.
00:14:05.340I have gone so deep on this man's life. I have a spreadsheet of people whose doors I aspire to knock on in Uganda, where he was born.
00:14:16.620Uh, and he has made me laugh. He's made me think. Like, I saw an amazing clip of him recently, where there was this heckler who, he literally, it's, I know that guy, too.
00:14:28.920He goes to every Zoran event and just yells at him. He was yelling at Zoran. He was yelling, communists, you're a communist.
00:14:35.400Zoran was getting on a city bike, which is, like, the New York City, you know, uh, not free, but it's, it's a, a cheap bike service.
00:14:43.260And he was getting on a city bike, and this guy's yelling, communists, and Zoran turns, and he's like, it's pronounced cyclists.
00:14:50.340And, what, yeah, what can you say? The, the charisma is, is next level.
00:14:56.000And I do think that helps explain so much of the overnight success, is charisma and positivity.
00:15:04.480It's interesting, because it's, it's kind of, um, an inverse in some ways of Trump, of populism on the right, where he is, Zoran is tapping into this class grievance.
00:15:17.740Uh, like I said, he champions himself as, uh, for the working class.
00:15:23.600And yet, a lot of people make comparisons to Obama.
00:15:27.700A lot of people, when they, when they talk to me about Zoran, they use the word hope.
00:15:54.940Because, uh, it might be just a British-American thing, but when I see, when I see someone who's being heavily criticized, and they smile through it, that makes me think that person's inauthentic.
00:17:22.620The platform that doesn't just talk about free speech, it protects it.
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00:17:59.780I will say, in that debate, it was getting really, it was a smile, but it was getting really intense.
00:18:07.140So, but I think that cracks are already starting to show.
00:18:10.920Like, on the topic of Israel, he often uses the talking point that I want to be the mayor of New York City for all New Yorkers,
00:18:23.140even those who disagree with me on the topic of Israel.
00:18:26.620But, you know, when he's pressed on it, he kind of can't really answer, well, how are you going to protect Jewish New Yorkers against anti-Semitism
00:18:40.620if you're convinced that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, like, in most, or if not all, instances.
00:18:49.400So, I think if he is elected mayor, I think the thing about Zoran is he, he's an excellent campaigner.
00:19:01.360He, and in some ways his primary campaign had way more energy than now the general election campaign has had,
00:19:11.100because everyone who was helping him organize, they, I think they love this idea of the underdog.
00:19:19.280And so, we'll see if he's elected, if he is able to, I think, I think he's, the frustration is going to come through,
00:19:31.380because he's going to have to build a moderate coalition, and already this activist wing that has really supported him,
00:19:40.320there's this organization, the Democratic Socialists of America, which is becoming an increasingly important force in American politics.
00:19:51.020I think they're probably going to butt heads eventually.
00:21:43.360So, I suppose the question is, why is his message of free stuff resonating in a city that's experiencing increasing levels of disorder and lack of safety?
00:21:55.060Yeah, it's interesting because I've heard interviews where Zoran says, or actually it's really with his team.
00:22:04.000I've heard his team speak candidly that the polling was showing, when he was considering a run for mayor,
00:22:11.820polling was showing that the number one issue New Yorkers cared about was safety.
00:22:17.840That is the message that Cuomo ended up going with.
00:22:23.280And Zoran had this impulse, no, we really need to focus on affordability.
00:22:27.980And ultimately, that was totally the right decision.
00:22:31.320And it's really interesting because the stereotypical Zoran voter is,
00:22:37.280they probably make $100,000 to $140,000 a year.
00:22:43.000They live probably in Brooklyn or gentrifying parts of Queens and have a college degree.
00:26:15.800I think something that is confounding to people who maybe live in a city where rent is not $4,000 to $7,000 for a part in my French toll.
00:26:30.180New York City is one of the only cities in the world where you can make $150,000 a year and you need to get two roommates and like eating or getting a burrito from Chipotle is like a big night out.
00:26:47.400So it's become insane where to live within Manhattan.
00:29:09.640And I think that who he's resonating most with are these people who are really struggling to kind of break into the hallmarks of adulthood,
00:31:02.500another policy he's proposed is a millionaire's tax.
00:31:07.400There are question marks on a lot of his policies like the childcare or his massive department of community safety that would augment slash replace parts of the police department.
00:32:24.700It's very uncertain that he would be able to get that done.
00:32:28.540Because that puts him in a very precarious position because effectively he might well be writing checks in order to quote Top Gun that his body can't cash.
00:38:51.800Yeah. And the, the DSA, this group that has really propelled Mom Donnie, I mean, they have had really radical reactions to all these instances
00:39:05.080where after Joe Biden was, was diagnosed with cancer, you know, we, I have access to the DSA's internal message board and I read it all the time.
00:39:17.660And basically anytime there's one of these events, you know, sometimes there are people who are outright celebratory,
00:39:26.260but at the very least it's people who feel like it's complicated.
00:39:31.020And, um, obviously that relates back to October 7th too, where Mom Donnie, Jewish New Yorkers are a part of his coalition.
00:39:41.900Cuomo is polling better with Jewish voters, but only by a few percentage points.
00:39:48.200And Mom Donnie has had a lot of Jewish supporters very visibly within his campaign.
00:39:55.300But when you look at, well, who are these Jewish voters and what do they believe?
00:40:01.580These are often really radical groups.
00:40:03.900Like one that shows up to everything he does is Jews for racial and economic justice.
00:40:10.300And after October 7th, they released a statement that said that Hamas's terrorist attack was unjustifiable, but not unprovoked.
00:40:21.320So that kind of sounds like a justification, right?
00:40:24.420And so there are these, there's this anti-Zionist bend that's really active within Mom Donnie's coalition.
00:40:33.400But I think you've rightly picked up on this thread of kind of anger and sometimes justification for violence that is active on the far left.
00:40:44.640And is, it's not, not a part of Mom Donnie's coalition too.
00:40:48.740And do you think his success is something that will be replicated in other cities in America that will appeal to people beyond New York City where, you know, the housing issue is not as bad in most other places in the U.S., but it is very bad in some places in the U.S.
00:41:07.400And do you think you're going to start to see things like him in California, perhaps, in D.C., maybe, in other places?
00:41:13.480Yeah, I think the only uncertain dynamic is just, as we said, Zoran is so charismatic where you really, that's the unknown, is, will there be someone as charismatic in a city like Houston or San Francisco?
00:41:31.960But you're already starting to see people run in his image.
00:41:39.060They are mapping out school board races in the San Antonio suburbs or water referendums, you know, outside of Pittsburgh.
00:41:49.440So they are already talking about the midterms, certainly, which are just around the corner, and then even 2028.
00:41:58.040So the DSA, they have plans to run candidates in major races across the country.
00:42:06.740And you're already seeing, you know, on Election Day, it's not just Zoran's big day, but there are similar candidates in cities like Minneapolis.
00:42:18.600Arguably, the mayor of Boston is already kind of in this vein.
00:42:22.700So, yeah, there are already, his impact is already felt.
00:42:27.160You know, it's, look, I don't agree, but it's a smart play.
00:42:32.380It's a smart play, because when I looked at the Democrats, when they embraced identity politics, and then the Labour Party in our country, I was like, this ain't going to fly.
00:42:41.560This ain't going to fly with white working class people.
00:42:45.040It ain't going to fly with people who are more naturally conservative.
00:43:13.920And I think that in America, there's so much to gain for whomever deploys economic populism without the identity politics.
00:43:26.380And Zoran, I think, has had so much success, because for the most part, he really has avoided the identity politics.
00:43:33.400He, when he talks about his plan for community safety, he's not really talking about an epidemic of black and brown men being shot, you know, language that we heard in 2020.
00:43:46.600He is trying to do a new brand of kind of post-BLM politics.
00:43:55.240But there are still these hints of identity politics, you know, on the debate stage.
00:44:02.600It came out, his plans to support trans New Yorkers.
00:44:07.380Immigration is obviously going to continue to be a huge thing, and there could be a potential clash with ICE.
00:44:14.940And so, yeah, it's unclear to me if he's really moved on from this.
00:44:20.940How he handles public safety and police will continue to be a big test.
00:44:43.620You need to be talking about this, because this isn't an issue that has been, you know, created artificially in the corridors of Columbia University.
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00:50:40.600I'm making a very different point, which is leading a campaign does not really require a huge amount of dealing with the reality of trade-offs.
00:51:24.200I think that unless his administration, if he were to win, is just a total flop, I just think so much of his success is based on vision.
00:51:35.320And I think that even if he fails to accomplish his agenda, I think that his supporters are going to blame that on the establishment.
00:51:46.980I think they're just going to frame it in terms of, I don't know how much of the blame he'll get, I guess, if he does end up failing.
00:51:55.260But I guess I would also say that I just think that this is the future of the Democratic Party, regardless of what happens with Zoran Mamdani.
00:52:06.620I say that because in San Francisco, there was that progressive DA, Chesa Boudin, who he was ousted.
00:52:16.220These ideas, not all of them have died and they just keep bubbling up and bubbling up.
00:52:22.660But the social justice element, I feel like that chapter has closed.
00:52:27.300But what hasn't is really what Bernie kicked off like in 2016.
00:53:17.860I guess because a Democratic Socialist is slightly less revolutionary in the sense that they believe in making change within a Democratic system.
00:54:02.480When you read their platform, it talks a lot about tearing down systems.
00:54:08.220It's not quite clear to me what they would replace it with.
00:54:12.620Well, this is what I was getting at when I was talking about Mamdani specifically, is it is one thing to organize a very effective campaign.
00:57:30.560And like I said, I'm not really convinced that Zoran is the future of the Democratic Party.
00:57:38.300I think in some ways it's because I don't know if his ambition, I don't really think he's someone that would enjoy being president.
00:57:45.680But whoever is, whether it's AOC, I mean, Bernie, he's getting up there.
00:57:52.100But I really think that we're on this clash of the establishment against populism.
00:57:58.940Again, it's literally 2016 all over again, except I think we're finally hitting the tipping point where the populists have more power.
00:58:08.280Where you're seeing people like Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, where she is endorsing Zoran because she needs Zoran's support.
00:58:18.240She has more to gain from endorsing Zoran than Zoran has to gain.
00:58:23.020And look, one of the things that populism does, and it's very good at, and Nigel Farage in our own country is a maestro of, is pushing issues that were once seen as fringed by the establishment and making them mainstream and making the establishment tackle them.
00:58:38.840So in a way, if Zoran pushes the idea of wealth inequality and actually makes the left, right, and center have discussions and start to implement policies to tackle it.
00:58:56.420I mean, you've already seen this since 2016, where now even the Republicans have come to accept a lot of these things that were seen as only being elements of the Democratic Party, like support for Medicare and Medicaid and elements of the social safety net, like Social Security.
00:59:17.120Now, even Republicans know that to campaign against those things is really a death sentence.
00:59:23.060So I think that this populist bent is taking over both parties, and the yardstick has really been moved in a lot of ways.
00:59:35.040I mean, look at the issue of Israel and Palestine.
00:59:43.100So it's hard to tell who's driving the ship.
00:59:45.980Is it people like Zoran who are moving the yardstick, or does he just reflect it?
00:59:50.160I don't know, but so much has changed in terms of what would actually be, what would be a liability for a politician now, arguably, is a strength.
01:00:03.380Like these, I feel like it's based on my reporting, based on reading all of his tweets, I think it's fair to characterize his politics as anti-Israel.
01:00:15.080He's really struggled to answer whether or not he believes that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.
01:00:21.880Actually, he has implied, no, that he has a problem with Israel, just like he has a problem with Saudi Arabia.
01:00:31.000But this would have been a huge problem for any politician only a few years ago.
01:01:42.680And this is, in many ways, the American, historically speaking, at least the American attitude or at least the prevailing attitude towards socialism.
01:01:51.740But I don't, I think the current Democratic Party has moved in a very different direction, hasn't it?
01:01:56.600Yeah, there was polling I saw recently from Gallup, only a few months ago, it was done in August, where more Democrats actually have a favorable view of socialism than capitalism.
01:02:12.440So the number that have a favorable view of capitalism, it's something like 42, 46 percent.
01:02:19.860And then the percentage that have a favorable view of socialism is 66 percent.
01:02:26.600And what do you think they mean by socialism?
01:03:50.260I guess they picture America, but like a fulfillment of the American promise.
01:03:55.320And free buses and the other, you know, free childcare and all these other things.
01:04:03.100I think they probably just picture like a more functional economy.
01:04:07.700Like the way that the American dream is supposed to work, where you, the days when you could be a blue collar worker and you actually could support, you could have two, three kids.