TRIGGERnometry - ＂The Police Aren't Racist＂ - Former Met Officer Speaks Out

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:08.180 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:09.320 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:00:15.000 Our brilliant guest today, I'm delighted to say, is a retired police inspector of 30 years.

00:00:19.920 Chris Donaldson, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:21.320 Thank you very much for having me.

00:00:22.400 Listen, man, it's so great to have you on the show. We're so excited to talk to you.

00:00:25.500 There's been so much happening this year to talk about.

00:00:28.540 but for anyone who doesn't know who you are just give us a rundown of what has been the journey

00:00:32.660 that you've had through life you joined the police at 18 right and all the way through to now just

00:00:37.000 tell everybody who are you how are you here what's been your journey okay yeah so i am was born in

00:00:42.500 islington um grew up in layton to um jamaican parents uh got uh two brothers and a sister

00:00:50.360 um very normal background my mum's a nurse was a nurse and my dad's worked at ford's

00:00:56.720 nothing extraordinary um uh at the age of 18 i i was in the sixth form i had no idea what i wanted

00:01:04.620 to do um a guy down my uh rugby club paul farrell he he um suggested that i should consider police

00:01:12.200 so i'd never thought about it before i didn't grow up with any aspirations to be a police officer

00:01:16.660 never before uh that conversation and uh it it actually took to all the boxes what i'd like a

00:01:24.500 lot of times in my life i decided what i didn't want to do before i decided what i wanted to do

00:01:28.640 and what i didn't want to do was sit in an office um and i wanted to do something that was uh

00:01:33.460 exciting or or certainly challenging and and when i looked at it in more detail i thought yeah why

00:01:39.820 not have a go and that was basically it i i looked at the forms i i spoke to paul um and i thought

00:01:47.200 yeah well at the time there was a big push uh for in recruitment and i thought yeah why not i'll

00:01:53.860 i'll have a go i didn't think i would get that far if i'm honest but um i put the application

00:01:59.800 form and um i'm borrowed i i uh i got um through the application system and at at that point what

00:02:08.420 they do is uh send the local officer or local sergeant around to your house to check that your

00:02:14.320 house or your family is suitable um to have a police officer one lived there and and if it's

00:02:21.160 a good family background if we had done the checks um i didn't tell my parents that i'd uh i was i'd

00:02:27.420 been accepted i didn't want to have that conversation because i'd already made my mind up

00:02:31.120 um uh so my when when the sergeant knocked at my door um it my my dad was very shocked and

00:02:40.360 surprised he thought i'd been arrested because because i was the one in the family that's most

00:02:46.920 likely to be arrested because that was that was that was me um so he was very pleasantly surprised

00:02:54.080 that uh i i was um i applied for the police um the the guy the guy came in the sergeant came in

00:03:01.360 my mum ushered him into the front room with the plastic seats and we'd never been allowed to go

00:03:07.160 into um she got the bone china that we didn't even know existed we had a picture of the queen

00:03:14.020 on one side

00:03:15.180 and a picture

00:03:15.800 of Jesus Christ

00:03:16.420 on the other

00:03:16.880 the sergeant

00:03:18.140 looked around

00:03:18.620 and thought

00:03:18.920 what a wonderful family

00:03:19.820 this is it

00:03:20.540 and my mum

00:03:21.560 went into this

00:03:22.260 Jamaican English

00:03:23.380 that she does

00:03:24.500 when she's talking

00:03:25.020 on the phone

00:03:25.660 and it was

00:03:27.700 yeah I was in

00:03:28.520 he was in

00:03:29.760 super impressed

00:03:30.400 and next thing I know

00:03:32.160 I was in

00:03:32.620 training school

00:03:33.360 but you've had

00:03:35.120 quite a remarkable

00:03:36.100 career then on

00:03:36.860 because you did

00:03:37.400 lots of different things

00:03:38.500 not least

00:03:39.940 you were a firearms officer

00:03:41.080 I think you said

00:03:41.640 for eight and a half years

00:03:42.320 is that right?

00:03:42.660 yes yeah

00:03:43.120 Yeah, that was quite a bit before then.

00:03:45.260 So, yeah, so I was a probationary in Covent Garden,

00:03:49.640 Bow Street, Covent Garden.

00:03:51.080 I spent three years there.

00:03:52.520 I then went on to the Territory Support Group in 87,

00:03:57.460 which is primarily, their role is riot control

00:04:00.460 and crime, you know, high crime areas.

00:04:03.620 I sent them into high crime areas.

00:04:05.980 I did four and a half years on that.

00:04:07.860 And then I went to Tottenham as a police constable.

00:04:12.160 I spent some time on the Bordwick Farm team

00:04:14.340 as a homebeat officer, basically.

00:04:18.720 Got a lot of experience there.

00:04:21.680 And then I got promoted and I went to Hackney,

00:04:25.340 which is a bouldering.

00:04:27.320 Spent three and a half years there.

00:04:29.060 And then I went to the firearms team for eight and a half years.

00:04:32.260 Yeah, I was a sergeant and inspector on the firearms team.

00:04:34.500 And you mentioned the riot part of it.

00:04:36.580 We've obviously had a lot of protests going on this year

00:04:38.920 for different things.

00:04:40.020 And this is where we came across you,

00:04:42.280 because what we try and do on this show

00:04:43.740 is talk to people who have a slightly different take

00:04:46.440 to a lot of other people

00:04:47.860 in terms of the mainstream narrative and stuff.

00:04:50.380 And during the protests and BLM and stuff like that,

00:04:53.040 you were talking about how you'd been in the Met for 30 years,

00:04:56.660 you'd had a great career,

00:04:57.860 and a lot of people were saying

00:04:59.140 the police in this country are racist,

00:05:00.700 and you didn't agree with that.

00:05:01.800 No, I don't.

00:05:02.720 How come?

00:05:03.820 Well, first of all, my experience.

00:05:06.100 So my experience over the 30 years spanning, and still my experience now, dealing and mentoring police officers, is that the vast majority of police officers are very good, well-meaning people.

00:05:22.040 Yes, like society, it has a minority who are of racist opinions and racist actions.

00:05:29.440 But you really, in this day and age, you've really got to be a committed and ingenious racist to survive.

00:05:35.980 No, really, you really have to,

00:05:37.980 because once of all, you've got your cars,

00:05:40.140 the cars are taped and recorded, yeah?

00:05:43.380 You go into a station, they've got cameras and they're recording.

00:05:46.640 You've got body-worn camera.

00:05:47.960 Every time you stop and arrest someone, it's filmed and recorded.

00:05:51.340 Now, to be a racist in that environment,

00:05:54.200 with all the canteen, with every supervisor and manager

00:05:57.780 trained to detect that kind of behaviour and act on it,

00:06:01.860 and some of them want to find that behaviour

00:06:03.980 just so that they can evidence it,

00:06:06.680 so that they can be promoted, you know,

00:06:08.920 to have all that in place

00:06:11.360 and then still be an active racist in the matter.

00:06:14.700 You really have got to go some.

00:06:16.720 You really have.

00:06:17.640 It's not an environment that sustains an overt racist.

00:06:22.680 It really isn't.

00:06:23.500 And I can say that I've been there.

00:06:25.520 Yeah, obviously, there are bad experiences.

00:06:28.500 People have them.

00:06:29.180 And I'm not saying it's not racist,

00:06:31.140 not like the NHS hasn't got racist

00:06:32.740 or, you know, media hasn't got racist.

00:06:35.840 Of course they have.

00:06:37.020 He's looking at us.

00:06:38.320 He's not racist.

00:06:40.300 It's not us, it's our producer.

00:06:42.120 Of course, yes.

00:06:43.060 You know, the way you treated me since I've been there.

00:06:45.100 But no, what I'm saying is, on a serious note,

00:06:48.940 you really have got to be going some to survive in a Met police today

00:06:53.520 and be overtly racist.

00:06:56.260 You really have.

00:06:57.260 So why do people say that then?

00:06:58.680 Why do people say that the police are racist?

00:07:00.980 I think if you look at the figures, and going back to the Lawrence Inquiry,

00:07:06.820 certainly the Macpherson report, he used this word institutional racism,

00:07:14.880 which has been used to batter the police ever since.

00:07:17.940 And people wrongly suggest that the institution is racist,

00:07:23.380 so all the people in it are racist.

00:07:25.500 And that's not the fact.

00:07:26.980 That's not the case.

00:07:28.080 what they're saying is that the figures don't look good you know people are disproportionately

00:07:32.940 saying people are disproportionately shocked or or not promoted um in in the correct you know

00:07:38.820 ratios whatever it doesn't reflect the people that are actually in it now you can have all

00:07:44.420 kinds of explanations why those figures do look bad but i can tell you from a personal point of

00:07:50.220 view as individuals i've not seen that and i was managing teams you know on the ground actually

00:07:56.380 policing a lot of people who do make comments in the media about their experiences in the police

00:08:01.860 haven't really policed as much as i have i've managed people and if i had seen that kind of

00:08:08.020 behavior i would have jumped on it and got them out i know i would not have tolerated it i'm not

00:08:12.660 saying they didn't exist but to to put the both together institutional racism and everyone's a

00:08:18.220 racist in the places is wrong it's incorrect i think in my opinion um i've not seen evidence

00:08:24.220 of mass you get the impression that there are hordes of racists sitting in the canteen with

00:08:31.160 hoods on waiting to go and victimize black people and it's just not true in my opinion

00:08:38.720 do you think part of the problem is like you says you know when people talk about institutional

00:08:43.280 racism they'll they'll say you know black people especially young black men are more likely to be

00:08:48.000 stopped and searched yes and that causes real real problems so going into that yes they are

00:08:54.920 more likely to be searched and and they're also more likely to be stabbed to death yes in certainly

00:09:00.980 in in inner cities yeah so yes unfortunately when you do in these operations to combat particularly

00:09:08.160 knife crime murders you have to go into those areas and sometimes for instance if a robbery

00:09:12.660 victim gives a description of the person that robbed them, quite often, particularly

00:09:18.620 Hackney and Tottenham, that person, the assailant, is black, within an age range and with a

00:09:25.280 description. And because they're under stress, their descriptions aren't always accurate.

00:09:30.460 I mean, you try it tomorrow, you know, someone runs up behind you, not stabs you, you don't

00:09:34.320 have to go that far, but just to hit you and run away. And then you told me what that person

00:09:38.040 looks like under stress so some quite often their their their descriptions are very but quite

00:09:43.180 quite often also they say they're between 18 and 25 not all the robbery but i'm just saying

00:09:50.120 so when you're going into areas where you want to stop kids stop walking around with knives or

00:09:55.900 driving around with knives killing other kids particularly black kids you have to target that

00:10:00.840 area now in my experience of dealing with with actual complaints as an inspector and i have

00:10:07.560 dealt with in the professional standards the complaint didn't come from oh he's they only

00:10:13.400 stopped me because i was black it was because they were rude to me or that in civil in civil

00:10:17.940 so um quite often if you do or you're professional and when you stop someone i got very few complaints

00:10:24.380 and i stopped a lot of black people probably more black people than i stopped white people

00:10:27.880 because i worked hackney and tottenham i didn't i got very few complaints you know because it was

00:10:33.760 the way i dealt with and that's a difficult that's a difficult area because as a police officer when

00:10:38.680 you experience police officer you start to build up an instinct for people so i for instance you

00:10:45.500 stop someone in a car one of the first things you're done you're taught as a as a trainee

00:10:50.240 is stopping vehicles while i was anyway in the 80s and i always thought well this is a bit weird

00:10:55.260 why am i down on the embankment stopping cars and they really the reason is because when you stop

00:11:00.400 someone you can stop say for instance you can stop someone to say right so um your wife is really

00:11:05.600 ugly or your husband is really ugly they'll go right fair enough if you say you're not a very

00:11:11.200 good driver and you've just gone for it they want to fight you yeah they will not be you can't tell

00:11:15.780 people that they're bad drivers or they've they've they've done something wrong that's one of the

00:11:20.400 things so you learn very quickly how to negotiate and talk uh to people without it turning into a

00:11:28.400 big fight um and and vehicle stops quite often are quite uh confrontational or they lead into

00:11:35.660 confrontation because people just don't want to be told um that they are did they've transgressed

00:11:42.300 or broke a law they don't want to be told that so but also when you come on to stopping people

00:11:46.860 you if someone's got something to hide quite often quite often not saying always quite often

00:11:53.160 they will get very aggressive and they'll start throwing you know all kinds of allocations hoping

00:11:59.400 that you'll run away but as an experienced officer you know well hold on a minute why is this person

00:12:04.180 so avid why is they so aggressive now you think to yourself well should i walk away now from this

00:12:10.240 confrontation and they've they get away with whatever they're getting they're trying to hide

00:12:14.080 or do i persist and that can go badly sometimes but experienced officers know they quite often

00:12:20.620 you must continue because if i stop a normal member of public they're not they're not happy

00:12:25.400 about it they're not happy about it because no one wants their liberty interrupted or their day

00:12:29.640 interrupted by police officers and it feels like an intrusion i i get that i've been stopped myself

00:12:34.100 you know a few times and i can get that but quite often if it goes into a confrontation you're

00:12:41.560 really rude or you're really aggressive that police officer starts to think well what have

00:12:46.020 you got to hide and they start pressuring a little bit more because what have you got to

00:12:50.500 you might not be hiding, you're just a bit angry

00:12:52.680 you know, you're just not like

00:12:54.220 the fact that your day's been spoiled, that's fine

00:12:56.400 I get that, but career

00:12:58.560 criminals will throw those

00:13:00.440 distractions at you and you have to

00:13:02.540 you know, when you're in training

00:13:03.900 you're trained to

00:13:06.560 look for that kind of thing, so

00:13:08.220 why are they trying to put you off the scent?

00:13:10.440 What are they doing?

00:13:12.000 Are you now going to walk away and say, well you've won

00:13:14.320 okay, fair enough, and they'll go away with

00:13:16.500 whatever they've got. Sometimes they can

00:13:18.500 And so that's a really difficult area of policing, stopping people.

00:13:22.020 Really difficult area.

00:13:23.240 And it's only experience, really, that makes you better at it.

00:13:27.600 I don't know anyone who looks at a car coming towards them

00:13:30.880 and knows what that occupant, the colour of that occupant,

00:13:34.660 until they write up on you.

00:13:36.120 What you see first is the lights out,

00:13:39.020 or they're on the wrong side of the road,

00:13:40.660 or their registration has come up as no insurance,

00:13:43.560 or that registration has been put up in a thing.

00:13:47.800 But you don't say, oh, 50 yards down the road,

00:13:51.120 there's a black guy driving that car, I'll stop it.

00:13:53.860 Because you can't see them quite often.

00:13:57.540 So, yeah, stop and search is a really contentious area of policing.

00:14:02.300 But you become better at it the more experienced you are.

00:14:05.520 And you know how to gauge that person.

00:14:09.120 It's a very difficult way.

00:14:10.480 But the minority of people, it is the minority of people you stop,

00:14:14.740 are getting aggressive for a reason.

00:14:17.120 They're throwing you off the stent for a reason.

00:14:20.500 And you have to, as a police officer,

00:14:22.600 a representative of the public, by the way,

00:14:24.900 you think, are you doing the public a favour

00:14:27.360 by letting them walk away?

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00:15:51.200 And Chris, what do you say to those people who say, I think it's only 3% is the stat that's often used.

00:15:58.480 3% of these stop and searches lead to an arrest.

00:16:01.620 It's not an effective tactic and it just antagonizes black communities and other communities as well.

00:16:08.140 Listen, 3%.

00:16:10.340 I listen to people in the public domain talking about it

00:16:14.720 and quite often they have no idea.

00:16:17.420 Or even the people who are ex-police officers

00:16:19.700 who didn't use the tactic quite often.

00:16:22.380 Because a police officer, an active police officer,

00:16:24.520 an operational police officer knows it's not always about finding a gun

00:16:29.300 or finding a big bag of drugs.

00:16:32.260 It's sometimes disrupting that gang.

00:16:34.880 Not everyone who you stop is a gang member because they're not.

00:16:38.140 but disrupting that person's movement of a carriage weapon.

00:16:42.300 So they're not confident in walking around.

00:16:44.120 Because quite often, if you're working in an area and you know the people,

00:16:46.840 you see, you're stopping known gang members and known criminals, yeah?

00:16:51.740 And in the old days, you wouldn't search them.

00:16:54.920 You don't have to search them.

00:16:55.640 You just know what they were and where they are that day at that point of their day.

00:16:58.440 It's not all about finding loot.

00:17:01.480 Yes, stop and search is different.

00:17:03.560 You have to have reasonable grounds.

00:17:04.820 That's a little bit different.

00:17:05.800 but stop and talk yeah is something else yeah because when you've got the known gang members

00:17:11.440 walking around confidently with weapons they're not always going to stab someone but they may do

00:17:17.620 when they come into a confrontation your job is to stop them doing being confident walking around

00:17:21.820 with those those weapons um and that's difficult because innocent people get stopped and innocent

00:17:27.660 people get caught up in that that that war you know so to speak rather like going onto an airplane

00:17:33.860 Most people are not bringing anything onto their plane.

00:17:36.660 One of the reasons they're not taking their personal use drugs

00:17:40.600 or their gun or whatever is because they're going to get searched.

00:17:44.960 They're going to get searched.

00:17:46.300 I don't mind getting searched going onto a plane

00:17:48.340 because I know that the guy next to me or the woman next to me

00:17:51.040 hasn't got Semtex in her bag because I feel safer.

00:17:55.340 It's not all about the success rate of stop and search.

00:17:58.120 It's the effect it has on the mind of those criminals.

00:18:01.200 so what we're really talking about is preventative policing it is preventative in a lot of ways

00:18:06.420 and but people wrongly look at that three percent say well it's unsuccessful it's it's obviously

00:18:11.800 unsuccessful which is not we need to do something else what else what is the option if you say for

00:18:17.300 instance i'm not going to stop anyone in hackney or or more specifically no black people no black

00:18:22.980 person's gonna be stopped in hackney for the next week yeah vast majority of people just go along

00:18:27.560 their business no problem but there'll be a hardened core of thinking wow this is great

00:18:32.720 i could now travel left right and center with my gun my my knife my whatever and i can go and do

00:18:38.980 what i have to do it's really difficult there's no straight straight answer to it but it is one

00:18:45.240 of the tools that has to be used unfortunately particularly in high crime areas where there

00:18:51.140 murders and stabbings you know i think 14 out of the 15 stabbings of kids who have killed this year

00:18:57.600 were were murdered by stabbing you know and and quite often there were gang members not always

00:19:03.080 sometimes there were just people in the wrong place but all the time there were people walking

00:19:07.480 around with them you know it was nice quite confidently walking around with no i've been

00:19:11.540 shocked by some of the weapons that i've found on people shocked so yes vast majority of people are

00:19:17.960 innocent vast majority of people have got no weapons or nothing and and and you have to pat

00:19:22.420 them down and say we're really sorry that you've been inconvenienced and that your day is being

00:19:26.480 spoiled but unfortunately the reason i'm doing this is because the crime in this area has gone

00:19:31.280 up and stabbings and we are trying to combat it which brings me on to the other point that people

00:19:36.160 often make about stop and search which is okay look i hear you chris you're an experienced police

00:19:41.000 officer i understand we need to do preventive policing but why do black and brown people get

00:19:47.040 stopped a lot more than white people?

00:19:48.720 I can't give that answer because I just think in the particular areas

00:19:53.780 like Hackney and Tottenham and Peckham and Brixton in particular

00:19:56.860 where victims of crime are pointing out that the people

00:20:03.800 that they robbed them are black or Asian or particularly

00:20:07.840 the victims of murders and stabbings are the people

00:20:12.260 who perpetrated that crime are black.

00:20:14.500 You have to go after those particular areas.

00:20:16.440 And unfortunately, when you put a TSG that I was a member of into an area of high crime,

00:20:22.340 they're going to have to stop people who fit that bill.

00:20:26.260 And sadly, and it is sad, that those high crime areas quite often involve immigrants or black people.

00:20:33.900 And it is sad because there's so many good, most people are just going on.

00:20:38.520 I've got two boys and they're black kids, yeah, obviously.

00:20:42.360 And one of them got robbed at knife point,

00:20:46.280 broad daylight, yeah?

00:20:48.180 And I just wanted that guy arrested.

00:20:51.200 He was arrested, and he was punished.

00:20:54.540 But he was quite confidently walking around,

00:20:56.600 him and his mates in North London, with knives.

00:20:59.300 And if someone had said, you know,

00:21:01.160 the police are out in that area,

00:21:02.440 you know, before stopping lots of people for knives

00:21:07.740 to prevent this kind of thing,

00:21:09.400 I would have been quite happy with it.

00:21:10.480 I don't want my kids stabbed.

00:21:12.040 And the black community has got as much, you know,

00:21:16.660 of interest in not getting their kids hurt, you know, in these areas.

00:21:21.760 So, yes, it's in their interest,

00:21:25.460 or in the black community's interest, to support the police, I would say,

00:21:28.720 and certainly help the police so that their kids aren't murdered

00:21:32.040 and stabbed and robbed.

00:21:33.900 Because quite often they are victims of crime,

00:21:36.880 disproportionately victims of crime.

00:21:38.120 Not a lot of people like that stat.

00:21:40.480 you know that they are disproportionately victims of crime so just to clarify basically what you're

00:21:46.600 saying is you're targeting those communities because that's where there's more victims they

00:21:51.460 don't target they only target communities or areas i didn't mean that areas you know what i mean yes

00:21:56.440 we're areas where there are high crimes you're going into places where a lot of crime is being

00:22:01.080 committed that's right and if if the if there's a kid being stabbed and he happens to and the

00:22:05.360 the assailant happens to be black unfortunately yeah you know this is the this is the sad thing

00:22:11.380 they're letting the community their community down i've a black community and i feel desperately sad

00:22:15.960 for i've dealt with kids that are dying i've had i've had a child in my arms dying you know i've

00:22:23.040 had i've gone to the house to tell parents that their kids been killed i've been to i've knocked

00:22:29.180 on a door on in Tottenham at the same time as as that that person that that child was going to turn

00:22:37.040 up for dinner you know at the same and mother looked straight at me and fainted yeah because

00:22:42.180 she knew exactly what I was going to say the daughter just you know skipped away says we

00:22:46.620 thought it was her brother and he'd been and I was I had to go in when you're there telling those

00:22:51.480 parents you know that their child has died or has been murdered it's awful and they're the people

00:22:58.880 Like Damian O'Leary Taylor's father, he says there should be more stop and search.

00:23:05.840 There should be more stop and search, but in a more, as he says, humane way.

00:23:09.860 Yeah, that goes down to training of the individual,

00:23:12.180 maybe supervising a stop if you can as the supervisors.

00:23:15.860 But it's not retracting it.

00:23:17.940 It's not because that small percentage who do commit crime will love it.

00:23:21.940 They will love it.

00:23:22.960 And they're the only people who are benefiting them, by the way.

00:23:25.200 you know if you stop stop and search or reduce stop and search the only people who are going to

00:23:29.780 benefit are those criminals that small percentage who are just rubbing their hands saying now i can

00:23:34.320 walk i can go from one street to another with a gun and a knife without getting stopped or if i do

00:23:39.100 i'll just kick off you know so that's that's and that's a sad side effect of of crime in the in

00:23:46.940 london some in a lot of crime say for instance burglaries you go home you find your house

00:23:52.640 burgled no one knows what that person looks like generally you sometimes something a neighbor will

00:23:58.280 say oh i did see someone climb out the window whatever or or particular car theft no one

00:24:03.640 actually sees the same quite often robbery if someone is up against you you know they'll give

00:24:08.080 a say and sadly in like tottenham and hackney a lot of the a lot of the assailants are black

00:24:13.280 sad fact so innocent people get caught up in that crime or or the the police operation and it's sad

00:24:20.680 it is sad

00:24:22.160 but often

00:24:23.080 can I say

00:24:23.580 quite often

00:24:24.100 nothing comes of that

00:24:25.620 it's because

00:24:25.940 the way it's dealt with

00:24:26.960 the stop

00:24:27.420 how that stops dealt with

00:24:28.660 and like I say

00:24:30.540 you have to

00:24:31.060 you have to weigh it up

00:24:32.380 against why is this person

00:24:33.640 getting aggressive

00:24:34.200 with me now

00:24:34.880 where do you go

00:24:36.440 do you go down

00:24:37.480 and walk away

00:24:38.120 or do you have to

00:24:39.380 deal with this

00:24:40.040 and it looks really bad

00:24:41.780 I know I've been

00:24:42.660 in those situations

00:24:43.540 when someone's shouting

00:24:44.920 and screaming at you

00:24:45.880 and the people

00:24:47.080 now they've got

00:24:47.620 their phones out

00:24:48.500 and you're there

00:24:49.740 you've got your body I came on you

00:24:51.480 am I going to press this

00:24:54.000 is he really

00:24:54.560 is this person trying to throw me off the scent

00:24:57.300 oh you know what I'll walk away

00:24:59.140 because that's what members of the public

00:25:00.560 always want you to do

00:25:01.620 leave them alone

00:25:02.540 they have no idea what they've done

00:25:04.720 or what they're concealing

00:25:06.020 but they want you to leave them alone

00:25:07.280 so quite often people do

00:25:09.340 so I guess the question that I want to ask Chris

00:25:12.080 is we've been talking about stop and search

00:25:15.060 about the divisions that it causes

00:25:16.660 and you know that's perfectly logical

00:25:18.800 so how do we heal the this rift between these communities and the police and the metropolitan

00:25:26.500 police in particular okay i think we have to uh actually put into context the rift for instance

00:25:37.560 now the rift is gauged by what i don't know a survey customer survey the satisfaction surveys

00:25:44.680 maybe yeah black people aren't as much confidence in the in the police yes okay we'll get that but

00:25:51.000 i i know a lot of black people who who have no problem with the place yeah but i see the people

00:25:56.300 who are so-called representative of the black community up there all the time talking about

00:26:00.560 the rift with police well i don't think it's as big as people think yeah there's there's many many

00:26:08.600 many black parents who don't want their kids um stopped yes but they certainly don't want them

00:26:14.200 stabbed to death yeah and they do and they know that the police are the only people are going to

00:26:19.180 be able to stop that really well one of the base the most effective for people to stop that yes

00:26:23.700 you have social workers and everyone else and doing their part but the most effective way

00:26:27.540 still is the police so i don't hear that that rift as much as the so-called community leaders

00:26:35.300 and i say irresponsible mps keep muting all the time constantly you'd think every black person

00:26:42.600 hates the police if you watch social media and i don't think it's true yes there's a there's a

00:26:49.620 suspicion between the blacks black people and the police like there was in the 80s when i joined i

00:26:54.300 totally ignored it to be honest i didn't ask i didn't care about what people were going to think

00:26:58.080 about me being in the police i didn't didn't didn't even consider it if i'm honest and i didn't

00:27:02.580 consider it when i was in because the vast majority of people who were racist towards me

00:27:06.500 were black people yeah how do you mean they were calling me judas and a traitor people trying to

00:27:11.920 set fire to me at Nottingham Carnival.

00:27:14.140 Set fire to you?

00:27:15.040 Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:27:15.880 I had an MP who's still in Parliament at the moment

00:27:18.220 who called me a Judas and a traitor.

00:27:19.880 Probably won't name her, but, yeah, she still sits there.

00:27:24.240 And so I...

00:27:25.620 So you're a traitor to black people?

00:27:27.300 I'm a traitor to what?

00:27:28.520 I don't know.

00:27:29.100 To black people for being a police officer.

00:27:30.600 Absolutely.

00:27:31.140 Why is that?

00:27:31.480 I have no idea.

00:27:32.440 I still don't understand it,

00:27:34.120 but that's a common name you're called,

00:27:36.260 traitor and Judas.

00:27:37.260 Wow.

00:27:37.420 Yeah?

00:27:38.480 Because us and them.

00:27:40.200 it's like you know it still it still mystifies me now and it goes over my it was towards the end

00:27:45.140 of market it just went over my head because it made no sense to me and it still said to a lot

00:27:49.200 of people you're a traitor in the judas as if black people don't need to be put their communities

00:27:55.020 policed right what as if black people don't need their houses to be safe as if black people don't

00:28:01.420 need their kids to be safe of course they do the police aren't the enemy the the criminals are the

00:28:07.540 enemy you know so the traitor bit makes no sense no sense at all and it never has done yeah and i

00:28:15.760 think there are for instance now there's mr khan the mayor has said that he wants a increased uh

00:28:23.520 percentage of uh black people in the police in the met police 40 yet in the same breath he calls

00:28:29.880 them institutionally racist oh what a great advert that is yeah so yes kids join the met

00:28:36.000 police they're institutionally racist have a great time do you know what i mean what on earth is that

00:28:41.700 about and it's a lie first of all yeah it's a total misrepresentation of the police it's certainly

00:28:48.900 not an advertising campaign and it certainly won't increase the the the percentage i just hope that

00:28:55.900 they take as much notice of politicians as i did in those days none yeah listen to your own take

00:29:03.280 things take people as you find them yeah and i and take people listen to the positive notes from

00:29:09.640 the police because i can tell you i had a fulfilled a very varied and and rewarding career in the

00:29:16.580 police and i think it's a damn shame that young black kids are put off by listening to clowns in

00:29:23.640 in the in public domain who know nothing about police you talk about clowns in the public domain

00:29:28.680 obviously you're you're sort of talking about politicians and i think the media also have to

00:29:32.480 take some responsibility for who they choose

00:29:34.420 to come on and talk about this.

00:29:35.620 Oh, absolutely.

00:29:36.140 They keep going, oh, it's terrible, the representation.

00:29:39.040 Well, you keep telling people it's racist

00:29:40.680 and that representation is going to go down.

00:29:43.020 It's not going up.

00:29:44.040 It's not going to be increased.

00:29:45.540 So with that in mind,

00:29:46.520 you talk about the rift being exaggerated.

00:29:48.840 I think so.

00:29:49.900 So what did you make of BLM then?

00:29:52.860 Not something I...

00:29:54.280 I thought it was sad because I was there,

00:29:58.920 obviously, growing up in the 70s,

00:30:00.920 in the police in the 80s when we had a lot of racial tensions

00:30:04.720 and then we moved on and we got to where we were this year.

00:30:09.520 Yes, there's still issues, but we were miles, miles.

00:30:12.820 We were doing really well.

00:30:13.920 I think, you know, you only look at a rave scene,

00:30:16.240 a multicoloured rave scene.

00:30:17.580 You go to every festival, multicoloured, you know, the theatres.

00:30:21.140 People were doing, were mixing well, you know,

00:30:24.500 and then all of a sudden we're now going to answer

00:30:27.000 for the crimes of America, you know, and American police

00:30:30.360 and the segregation and all the issues that they've got.

00:30:33.900 It's not the same. It's not the same place.

00:30:37.140 You know, what happened to Floyd was disgusting.

00:30:40.460 The man wasn't a police officer, he was a criminal.

00:30:43.160 You know, he was criminal dressed as a police officer

00:30:45.300 and he deserves everything he gets.

00:30:47.700 But that didn't represent all the police officers.

00:30:49.500 And it certainly didn't represent British police officers.

00:30:52.240 But it's almost as if the anger was transferred here

00:30:55.940 and wanted to relive that wedge between.

00:31:01.000 They wanted to, you know, reenact it in effect, you know.

00:31:05.840 And I thought that was sad.

00:31:08.000 Black Lives Matter, you know, the actual, you know,

00:31:13.200 the label is kind of provocative in a way

00:31:16.880 and it puts a wedge into people who didn't really exist.

00:31:22.080 I know people are angry about that

00:31:23.540 and they weren't, they're definitely not racist.

00:31:25.360 they just feel old in a minute yes of course black lives matter and every life matters

00:31:28.800 i know what they were trying to do highlights the injustices but the main injustices were in america

00:31:35.240 yes there were things there were issues here but to to try and um to pretend that we had the same

00:31:42.480 issues as america it was wrong i just think it was wrong i didn't agree with it and there was a slogan

00:31:47.700 being that was bandied around that we heard a lot which is obviously defund the police

00:31:52.420 can you explain to people because i think this is really important why that is a stupid idea

00:31:58.560 what is a stupid idea because what what's your alternative what is the alternative okay we

00:32:02.940 defund the police we stop giving them and let's face it the police have effectively been defunded

00:32:08.340 anyway since the since um you know the first first financial crisis you know they're really

00:32:16.080 struggling anyway you know i know the i know the pains that the senior officers particularly

00:32:21.580 Chris, the dick goes through to get money from the mayor and government.

00:32:26.820 They're really stretched anyway.

00:32:28.420 So are you going to defund them now?

00:32:29.660 So, okay, what is your alternative?

00:32:32.260 No one's ever given an alternative.

00:32:33.700 Well, what they say, Chris, some of them anyway,

00:32:35.520 is what we mean when we say defund the police is more social workers.

00:32:40.880 We'll deal with the causes of crime.

00:32:42.640 We'll give people mental health support.

00:32:45.000 We'll make sure that kids who may be growing up in a difficult environment

00:32:50.060 and get the right encouragement, you know, stuff like that, right?

00:32:53.880 So I think some of these people think that if you did that,

00:32:56.300 you'd have no crime.

00:32:57.900 Oh, yeah, right.

00:32:58.560 Okay, so yes, your money goes to social workers

00:33:01.280 and people dealing with the fallout of crime

00:33:03.180 because there'll be a lot more crime.

00:33:04.880 Yeah, that's for sure.

00:33:06.300 So, yes, they're all part of the team.

00:33:09.180 I had this conversation the other day on the radio,

00:33:12.140 and they're all part of the team, really.

00:33:13.900 They're much alike.

00:33:14.760 The social workers, the youth workers, the police officers,

00:33:18.640 it's all part of the team.

00:33:19.400 you take one out, one element out, it doesn't work.

00:33:22.640 You know, and people say, oh, it isn't working now.

00:33:24.640 But, you know, it's literally the finger in the dam.

00:33:28.280 You know, you take that one element out

00:33:30.600 and you will see an outbreak.

00:33:33.000 I'm pretty confident that in this country

00:33:35.060 it's not even being seriously considered.

00:33:37.260 No, I don't think it is.

00:33:38.060 You're right.

00:33:38.540 I mean, in America, in some of the places

00:33:40.300 where they have defunded a lot of the police,

00:33:44.180 they've seen crime rise by hundreds of percent.

00:33:47.080 You have to remember,

00:33:47.900 but it's not the normal person that's going to benefit.

00:33:50.740 Me and you aren't going to go, well, maybe not,

00:33:52.760 but I don't know your neighbours,

00:33:53.780 but you're not going to go and kill your neighbour

00:33:55.280 if you can get away with it tomorrow.

00:33:57.480 No.

00:33:57.940 Yeah?

00:33:58.640 But some people will.

00:33:59.800 Yeah.

00:34:00.120 Do you know what I mean?

00:34:00.880 If they've got more chance of getting away with it,

00:34:03.720 they will take advantage of that, definitely.

00:34:06.700 The police deter crime is what you're saying.

00:34:08.300 Absolutely, of course they do.

00:34:09.320 Or not just police, the criminal justice system.

00:34:11.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:34:12.180 Yeah, which is part of the same thing.

00:34:14.640 if when you think about it what what stops you from committing crime you know the fact that you

00:34:22.060 might get caught is right up there you know and then you may be punished is another one that's

00:34:26.940 right up there yeah if that was taken away the normal you know church upbringing that a lot of

00:34:33.080 us have had you know you know the 10 commandments somewhere back in the head or whatever religion

00:34:37.340 that you've got that stops you the trick that makes you treat people nicely might not be there

00:34:41.880 You know, people might think, you know what?

00:34:45.180 A lot of police officers say, and I don't agree with this

00:34:47.760 because my mother and my family live in London.

00:34:50.620 One week, let's stop.

00:34:52.200 Just stop and see the fallout.

00:34:54.600 That's reckless, obviously.

00:34:56.220 Because we know what the fallout will be.

00:34:58.500 You can see that point, though, can't you?

00:34:59.680 Yes, absolutely.

00:35:00.620 We'll throw their hands up and say, you know what?

00:35:02.100 I know police officers say, right, don't stop any black person

00:35:04.800 in London for a week.

00:35:07.400 and say oh just don't stop anyone in london not just black people uh and and see what the effect

00:35:16.720 is but we know what the effects will be it's not and it's reckless for the innocent people that

00:35:20.960 will be affected just to prove a point to a few individuals you know so so what would you say to

00:35:27.580 these people who you know say you know defund the police who spread this message who say

00:35:32.740 like Sadiq Khan, institutionally racist.

00:35:35.480 What would you say to these people?

00:35:36.700 I wouldn't say anything to Sadiq Khan,

00:35:38.220 but to the others, I'd say that you're misguided

00:35:43.100 and slightly naive.

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00:36:58.780 and and do you think that do you think it's naivety because the reality is they don't know

00:37:07.180 what it's like to do and and quite often some of the police officers who are in the public i don't

00:37:12.840 know what it's like either they spend too much time in strategy meetings and uh and and meetings

00:37:19.040 doing this you know very quickly if they've actually spent time on the beat or actually

00:37:25.640 doing police work because they know the actual real reality of it um so yeah you need we used

00:37:32.820 to do it we used to do ride-alongs we used to get a local mp we in fact firearms i remember

00:37:37.880 back at graves then when we had a what we called a gallery range and it's basically you put in a

00:37:42.700 room and a scenario unfolds in front of you and you're given a gun you don't really particularly

00:37:48.300 need training but you're given a gun and you have to make a decision and firearms officers have to

00:37:54.460 make split-second decisions you know and it could be and that split-second decision could be pulled

00:38:00.280 apart for years yeah so it's a very difficult and considering that and how many weapons and how many

00:38:07.000 armed crimes we have and how many you know incidents of police shooting a member of public

00:38:13.120 or anyone in this day it's amazing how little it happens yeah but we used to put mps in that

00:38:19.120 scenario particularly mps that are critical or or had who didn't understand the process and then

00:38:26.160 and after an hour or so they come back with a different view yeah of difficulty we're going

00:38:31.620 to put the darkness down now we're going to have several people coming out you're going to have

00:38:34.600 someone behind you these are the things you're going to have to consider you're going to shoot

00:38:37.420 that person you're going to shoot the person behind you what's that is that are they giving

00:38:40.820 up or are they shooting you what are they doing are they shooting your mate what are you going to

00:38:43.960 do you know those so so the selection particularly for police officers in those those areas are is

00:38:51.600 is intense and and and those things are still pulled apart it's very difficult it's very

00:38:58.680 difficult the actual um the scenario of policing and actual policing is is very very difficult

00:39:05.160 particularly now when you've got body cam every decision every word that you say is going to be

00:39:09.480 pulled apart by in the calmness of a court by several different people by the media you'll

00:39:14.980 after your trial and media first of all and then maybe it goes to court but already the the public

00:39:20.700 have made a decision or whoever has put that edited that bit of film has made their decision

00:39:25.820 So it's very difficult.

00:39:27.300 It's a very, very difficult job.

00:39:28.780 But those ride-alongs are so important

00:39:30.180 because I've seen a few videos of that type

00:39:31.960 where you have to make the split-second decision.

00:39:33.980 It changes your view of it completely, doesn't it?

00:39:35.720 It's a very difficult scenario.

00:39:37.780 You know, there are a small minority of police officers

00:39:40.620 who are still one of the few unarmed police forces in the world.

00:39:46.240 And we're talking about Europe as well.

00:39:48.580 We consider ourselves kind of European

00:39:50.620 or maybe closer to America.

00:39:53.260 They're all armed.

00:39:54.240 We're still walking around without arms.

00:39:57.140 Yeah.

00:39:57.500 And I don't know what the answer is to that,

00:40:00.660 but I think probably more officers who are armed is better.

00:40:04.500 Well, you were a firearms officer for a while.

00:40:07.320 This is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about

00:40:09.260 in terms of the public complete lack of understanding

00:40:12.860 of the job that you guys do,

00:40:14.320 because we talked about this before we started

00:40:16.340 about the London Bridge bomber.

00:40:18.240 Yeah.

00:40:18.480 And I remember on the day, someone on Twitter going,

00:40:21.500 Well, why couldn't they just, like, you know, shoot him in the leg?

00:40:25.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:40:25.660 And do you have any idea of what you're talking about?

00:40:27.840 I blame American films for that.

00:40:30.280 Because I don't, and I'll tell you the implication of that.

00:40:36.240 We introduced a laser kind of on a taser, yeah?

00:40:42.360 And it was a red light.

00:40:43.300 Even before that, we just had a red light and it was a taser.

00:40:46.200 And we used to have people fall into the floor

00:40:48.820 when the red light hit them.

00:40:50.340 There was no gun attached to it or anything,

00:40:52.600 just a red light, and they'd hit the floor.

00:40:54.500 Because they thought, well, the scene of films,

00:40:56.460 red light hits you, you're going to be shot,

00:40:58.340 that's it, hit the floor.

00:40:59.720 Because American films tell people you can wing people

00:41:02.560 as they're running away when they've got a gun in their hand.

00:41:06.060 You're taught to hit this between the torso

00:41:09.700 because that will disable them.

00:41:11.220 There's more likely to disable them, stop them doing.

00:41:13.640 You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop them

00:41:16.260 doing whatever they're doing.

00:41:17.700 Right, this is really good, Chris.

00:41:18.940 So break it down for people who don't understand firearms,

00:41:21.420 who don't understand biology.

00:41:22.960 Why do you have to shoot someone here to the sailor?

00:41:25.000 Right, but that area has the virtual organs in it.

00:41:28.980 It's going to be the most likely to stop them

00:41:32.260 doing what they're going to do

00:41:34.180 or what they're about to do,

00:41:35.880 shooting a weapon at you or someone else.

00:41:38.320 And why can't you just shoot the gun out of his hand?

00:41:40.720 Exactly.

00:41:41.460 It's a moving target.

00:41:42.540 It's very small.

00:41:43.100 You're less likely to hit that target.

00:41:45.460 You've only got a brief few seconds,

00:41:47.400 or micro-assetting to stop that person shooting you

00:41:50.760 or shooting someone else.

00:41:51.840 That body part is the area you're going to have most success.

00:41:55.600 Yes?

00:41:55.800 Right.

00:41:57.300 Okay, so shooting on the leg, you can still...

00:41:59.820 People have been shot on the leg, you can still...

00:42:02.040 Before that kicks in and maybe you bleed to death

00:42:04.460 or you can still carry the weapon and shoot them.

00:42:08.020 With suicide bombers, you've got a very small...

00:42:14.000 It's a very risky tactic

00:42:15.200 because they could have a trigger that releases and sets off

00:42:19.520 or if they press and sets off.

00:42:21.040 You don't know what that is.

00:42:22.740 And ideally, you're not going to be anywhere near them.

00:42:24.820 But when you're close up, like the boys and girls on the bridge,

00:42:28.620 they have dealt with someone who was presenting himself

00:42:31.340 as a suicide bomber.

00:42:33.140 And people thought, oh, it's very cruel what they did.

00:42:35.260 Obviously, the inquest has gone and decided it was a tactic

00:42:39.020 that was suitable.

00:42:40.720 But he already told them he was a suicide bomber.

00:42:42.980 He wanted to die.

00:42:43.880 And this is another issue.

00:42:45.200 death by cop when in as far as we had people who really wanted to die and they wanted you to take

00:42:51.180 them with them and they would do everything to provoke you into that obviously quite often you'd

00:42:56.760 use non-lethal weapon uh a taser or a baton round or something to disable them and then so you can

00:43:02.640 arrest them because you don't want to kill people you don't go into the police to kill people you

00:43:06.880 know so and and and so quite often you're presented someone like a suicide bomber probably wants to

00:43:13.620 die yeah and they and even though it turned out to be a fake vest how do you know no you don't

00:43:18.940 how do you know that's a fake vest you're presented with so yeah i think there was a

00:43:22.940 minority of people who said oh well it's very cool what they did but when they actually realized

00:43:26.640 the scenario with that there's a suicide bomber when that guy when you can see the farmers also

00:43:32.360 realize he's got a vest on and he shouts to his colleagues stand back you know and he's got he's

00:43:37.340 got to take that shot uh if it was a suicide bomber all them people would be you know having

00:43:42.100 the passers-by everyone would have been dead i mean as we've seen in israel and places there

00:43:45.880 that suicide bombers are used often you know a lot of people can be taken out with that

00:43:51.340 they were very brave and chris is there i mean this is a very broad question but do you ever

00:43:57.160 see the the criminals who come in who get arrested is there ever a common theme with them like you

00:44:02.740 know do they come from a certain background or not really uh no not really i would say i worked

00:44:10.440 i've worked um covent garden uh one of my first one was covent garden bow street rich city kids

00:44:15.740 uh pissed or coked up um um to you know tottenham with people of uh uh poorer or poorer backgrounds

00:44:25.100 and there is no real common theme i'm sure if you dig into it you you would find some kind of

00:44:31.380 common theme but i've seen criminals from the wide spectrum uh all you know quite often um fighting

00:44:39.380 you or whatever particularly the city boys when we were in a covent garden you know i remember

00:44:44.940 two guys threw another uh pub goer out the plate glass window and sat down and drank their pints

00:44:50.880 you know um so yeah we've seen all kinds but it comes from all kinds of backgrounds i don't know

00:44:57.740 if it's i'm sure this you know people would uh dig into it and find there's a there's a theme

00:45:03.500 somewhere along the line but i haven't seen it and i don't know if you'd have any strong views

00:45:06.960 in which, and if you don't, we don't really need to get into it.

00:45:09.920 But what do you make, because obviously a lot of the crime

00:45:13.820 is in relation to drugs, right?

00:45:16.920 Do you think our policy on drugs as a country is the right approach?

00:45:21.540 Do you think we need to slacken the laws on that

00:45:24.440 and let people, you know, smoke weed without being punished?

00:45:26.680 Or do you think we need to make harsher laws?

00:45:28.720 Like, what's your take on that?

00:45:29.520 I think they've watered down quite a bit over the years.

00:45:32.400 I think we used to arrest people for a small part,

00:45:36.260 a small bit of cannabis, and they'd go for the system.

00:45:41.280 Total waste of time, in my view.

00:45:44.240 And now you get a warning for possession,

00:45:47.400 a small possession of cannabis.

00:45:48.800 I think that the system is already going down that way

00:45:53.560 to lessen personal use.

00:45:57.240 You're very unlikely, first time to be a prison sentence arrest.

00:46:00.880 the criminal justice system has already adjusted itself

00:46:03.580 and it's still adjusting itself

00:46:04.920 and it's not for the police officers to make that decision

00:46:06.760 it's for the society as a whole

00:46:09.340 to decide

00:46:10.260 yeah okay people are

00:46:12.080 I don't think

00:46:12.780 the crime is often not caused

00:46:15.220 to feed their habit

00:46:17.440 sometimes heroin and maybe coke

00:46:19.540 but

00:46:20.280 to find drugs in the system

00:46:23.780 of someone who's committed crime is a bit misleading

00:46:25.700 I think because you know

00:46:27.080 people of all walks of life take drugs

00:46:29.900 So I think this criminal justice system,

00:46:32.120 certainly when I started in 83 to now,

00:46:34.580 has already adjusted itself to the acceptance

00:46:37.100 of a small amount of drugs,

00:46:40.020 a small use of personal use of drugs.

00:46:42.440 I guess what I'm getting at is,

00:46:43.880 do you think you might benefit as a police force

00:46:47.960 from taking some of the resources that are targeted

00:46:50.900 at dealing with people using drugs or whatever

00:46:53.000 and directing it more towards people

00:46:55.440 that are committing violent crime or whatever?

00:46:57.360 Well, yeah, and it's difficult to gauge where to start there.

00:47:01.420 The big dealers or the person who's using

00:47:04.840 or needs to commit crime to feed that use,

00:47:09.480 you don't know.

00:47:10.100 It's very complex.

00:47:11.200 Yeah.

00:47:11.460 It's very complex.

00:47:12.600 Yes, definitely use.

00:47:14.260 The money should be put into it

00:47:16.360 because it's a much wider spread issue

00:47:18.580 than people like to admit, I think, in the world,

00:47:21.340 certainly in the country, you know,

00:47:23.380 and a lot of people just get on with it

00:47:25.560 and their life and continue, don't they,

00:47:27.120 without any effect but there are a lot some people who do um suffer badly and it affects their lives

00:47:32.320 but yes absolutely that's a common it's a fact of life drugs and and resources should be put into

00:47:38.880 into helping people who are definitely for that and one of the things that is connected with drugs

00:47:43.720 is obviously the gangs the gang that supply them county lines do you think in particular in london

00:47:48.740 the gang problem has got worse because you started in 83 or is it maintained consistent do you think

00:47:54.760 I think gangs have just changed.

00:47:56.740 It's not...

00:47:57.220 Gangs, you know...

00:47:58.460 Gangs...

00:47:59.300 I was walking down...

00:48:02.300 As a probationer, you used to have to walk alone.

00:48:05.020 So you do your first two years mainly walking alone.

00:48:08.000 And I remember walking into Gerrard Street in Covent Garden

00:48:10.960 and I got held from behind.

00:48:12.840 Someone grabbed me from behind and held me.

00:48:15.180 I remember how hard it was.

00:48:16.940 It was real...

00:48:17.800 And they chopped someone up right in front of me

00:48:19.860 with an ice pick.

00:48:23.560 Anyway, it's...

00:48:24.740 and then they run off um and i remember dealing with that that individual and then and then people

00:48:33.540 come in and dealing with them and then we asked for to for uh witnesses no one saw a thing there

00:48:38.980 were people sat there and stood there with blood on them who didn't see a thing and when we realized

00:48:44.380 it was 14k and the woosimo triad gangs in who they had a vice like grip on people there were gangs

00:48:52.180 then there were there were vicious gangs then in vietnamese gangs there were all kinds of gangs

00:48:56.880 have always existed i mean gangs of london this program it goes back to you know the gangs have

00:49:01.660 always existed in some form the teddy boys are not so much gangs they were a group of social you

00:49:07.060 know whatever they call them but there's always been gangs a group of people who have a common

00:49:11.820 purpose to make more money for themselves whatever doing whatever criminality generally you know so

00:49:17.680 no i don't think it's a new thing gangs but but in context of like you know the particularly young

00:49:23.520 young boys getting involved so i used to be a teacher yeah in newham for 12 years and i saw

00:49:29.600 children that i taught i was a primary school teacher i saw 10 and 11 year old boys getting

00:49:34.240 involved in it and also i remember like a former pupil of mine who came back to see me and i was

00:49:41.060 talking to him and i was saying well you know you've been exiled from this one secondary school

00:49:44.620 but you've got a chance of going to this new one.

00:49:47.020 How do you feel about that?

00:49:48.240 He goes, I can't go there.

00:49:49.380 And I went, why not?

00:49:50.080 And he went, because they'll murder me.

00:49:52.360 Yeah, I mean, that seems to be more overt now.

00:49:57.220 But, I mean, there is peer pressure.

00:50:01.400 And quite often, when you look at those gangs,

00:50:03.640 because I've dealt with, I used to help out,

00:50:06.380 in fact, I was a member of the committee

00:50:08.660 at the Boxing Academy in Hackney in Tottenham.

00:50:11.600 they dealt with kids who'd been pushed out of the the the schooling system or can't be handled in

00:50:17.500 the schooling system and they were in gangs and it was and if you push behind that it was the family

00:50:21.820 background that really uh this was their family the black the the gang was their family yeah and

00:50:27.820 they come from really sad often sad backgrounds where the family unit wasn't as strong and that

00:50:34.660 was a common theme between gangs and maybe that's become more prevalent i don't know um you know

00:50:41.080 the family unit has been maybe replaced in some people's eyes

00:50:44.840 and lives by the gang.

00:50:46.840 And that's dangerous and that's sad as well.

00:50:49.160 But it's all about belonging, isn't it?

00:50:51.520 If you don't belong to your family, who do you belong to?

00:50:53.680 And if that group of people make you feel loved in a way,

00:50:58.060 then that's what you're going to be drawn towards.

00:51:02.220 You know, one of the things that a lot of our viewers

00:51:04.340 have been just moving on now a little bit,

00:51:06.160 have been asking about is we obviously had the BLM protest

00:51:09.320 earlier in the year, in which quite a few police officers

00:51:12.560 were injured, if I remember.

00:51:14.000 And equally, it felt like it was quite laxly policed.

00:51:17.780 You know, at least that was the perception for many people.

00:51:20.180 You sort of winced at that.

00:51:21.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:51:22.940 I just know how difficult it is to do those demos.

00:51:26.240 I've been in public all the time.

00:51:27.280 But, you know, when you see these things on Twitter,

00:51:29.120 like a police officer kneeling and all, it's not a good look.

00:51:31.780 That was a mistake.

00:51:32.860 Yeah.

00:51:33.160 That was a mistake.

00:51:34.220 I didn't agree with that.

00:51:35.500 I think, and I'll tell you why I didn't agree with that.

00:51:37.320 You don't get involved in politics straight away.

00:51:39.320 first of all that's one of the things you know don't get involved in politics no good that calls

00:51:43.540 or how much you believe that calls you're there to maintain peace the queen's peace as they say

00:51:48.920 but you're there to maintain their right to demonstrate and people's rights to go about

00:51:54.000 their normal business don't get involved in whatever political and i think that was a mistake

00:51:58.340 and i probably in hindsight they wouldn't have done that because it actually provokes more

00:52:01.580 violence in the end yeah but i going back to emphasize that point where i stood outside in

00:52:06.900 in 1984, 1985, stood outside the South African embassy

00:52:10.560 in Trafalgar Square, and people were going,

00:52:12.680 how can you defend the South African embassy

00:52:15.460 when in the height of apartheid?

00:52:17.080 It used to give me awful hell standing out there, you know.

00:52:20.780 All from, you know, they were all so-called people

00:52:23.660 who abhorred racism, but they selected me for my race, yeah?

00:52:28.120 So they would go on about me.

00:52:30.360 I wasn't defending. I had no problem even then.

00:52:32.600 I'm defending the right for these people to demonstrate.

00:52:36.900 and people to go back to normalism,

00:52:38.240 for the governments to decide

00:52:40.000 whether the South African embassy should be,

00:52:42.180 and in the end,

00:52:42.940 it obviously collapsed apartheid,

00:52:44.440 which obviously I'd heard.

00:52:45.600 But if I took,

00:52:47.020 if you turned up to your parade with 44 people

00:52:50.000 and said, right, okay,

00:52:51.540 do you believe in this cause?

00:52:52.500 Is anyone willing to police this one?

00:52:54.760 No, do you know what?

00:52:56.000 I think they've got a,

00:52:56.780 I'd rather take a day after.

00:52:58.600 You know, to be fair,

00:53:01.540 Sri Lanka should be independent in that way.

00:53:03.960 you know you couldn't you wouldn't have that you'd get nowhere yeah your job is to maintain peace

00:53:10.980 right and people say oh well you know you're just you you know you'd sign off the for the devil you

00:53:16.500 you know it's not your job to to take sides or decide whether they i've been on far right marches

00:53:24.420 i've been on far left marches i've been on all kinds of marches and quite often for my to make

00:53:29.580 my day go i'd always speak to them no matter what even if they hated me yeah i'd speak to them

00:53:33.720 i'd ask them what their cause was because it makes it a much easier day um a much more interesting

00:53:38.980 day but don't get involved in whether they should be there or not or whether you want to stop them

00:53:44.940 being there and the perception obviously from that that is one we were in lockdown and two

00:53:50.640 how did it be how was it let's develop now i'm pretty sure the people who made that decision

00:53:56.780 made it with a heavy heart or they would rather have no one been there because that was the law

00:54:02.000 actually you know we weren't allowed to gather in right and that started before blm though it

00:54:06.300 started with a remember remembrance service which is a good cause yeah but people started gathering

00:54:10.160 in large groups in public against the law yeah yes it was a good cause but people say well hold

00:54:16.400 on a minute if you can do that and as we've seen in public officials people take a lead don't they

00:54:21.200 oh if they can get away with that i'm gonna do it and then it kind of has a knock on effect

00:54:25.600 but as far as the back line i don't think it was softly softly it did look like it in sometimes it

00:54:30.920 It was softly, softly.

00:54:31.780 But I'm sure the PCs or the senior management,

00:54:35.480 public order management on the ground,

00:54:37.340 didn't mean it to look that way at all.

00:54:40.540 I guess what I...

00:54:41.760 And I take your point completely, completely accept that.

00:54:44.280 What I'm talking about is we saw the way that was policed,

00:54:47.560 however you would describe that.

00:54:49.160 We did see a bit of the kneeling, which you don't agree with.

00:54:52.400 But equally, we've just had protests a few weeks ago,

00:54:55.220 which is people protesting against lockdown.

00:54:57.240 Yes.

00:54:57.640 And I wasn't there.

00:54:59.680 I don't know if you were.

00:55:00.360 I wasn't.

00:55:00.920 none of us were there, but it suddenly looked like

00:55:03.280 a very different approach from the police.

00:55:05.220 Well, the approach in lockdown has developed, isn't it?

00:55:08.360 Yeah.

00:55:08.760 Throughout, you know, what we did in the start,

00:55:10.920 what we do now is totally different.

00:55:13.280 We've seen the effects of letting people break the law openly

00:55:17.380 and how that has an effect, a knock-on effect,

00:55:19.480 and maybe they've decided now that this is not something

00:55:23.140 that needs to be broadcast, people standing by

00:55:26.260 letting people break the law, which is, you know,

00:55:27.860 no matter how good a cause it is or was

00:55:30.260 or what they think it is.

00:55:32.040 So maybe the senior officers,

00:55:33.780 I don't know what in their mind,

00:55:35.040 have decided, well, maybe we need to show the public

00:55:38.480 that breaking the law isn't acceptable,

00:55:41.100 even if you think it's a good cause.

00:55:43.000 So you think it's more like they've evolved since?

00:55:44.540 I think it's evolved.

00:55:45.440 I think it's graduated.

00:55:46.600 Their response has graduated throughout the time.

00:55:48.960 Obviously, people have other ideas.

00:55:50.800 Oh, well, white people were just obviously policed

00:55:54.840 a lot more harshly than black people.

00:55:57.160 That's what the public...

00:55:58.140 Well, without even making it racial,

00:55:59.640 It's just like there was a double standard there.

00:56:01.880 It certainly appeared that way, didn't it?

00:56:04.800 It's not a double standard.

00:56:06.140 You have to take the intelligence, the dynamics, the environment,

00:56:11.240 all these things into place when you police a demonstration.

00:56:15.120 I've been on some very pleasant demonstrations.

00:56:17.120 I've been on one that was huge, the Sri Lankan demonstration

00:56:20.520 when they took over the whole of Parliament Square.

00:56:24.440 Unbelievable.

00:56:25.260 They just came from nowhere and all of a sudden on a whistle.

00:56:28.120 but they gave us nice food it was great you know so it was very peaceful yeah and and i've also

00:56:36.000 been on you should have been in police and i've also been on a uh i remember the anti-capitalist

00:56:42.720 march and when we first used kettling i mean outside the bank of england and i remember the

00:56:47.960 the the amuse for me it wasn't amusing because there was some so i think tom libson was it was

00:56:52.900 not on that particular day but for me that the first day before that happened the amusing thing

00:56:57.420 was how the chief, at the end of six, seven hours,

00:57:00.180 said, right, I declare this gathering to be finished,

00:57:04.040 and everyone went home.

00:57:04.800 But they were supposed to be anarchists,

00:57:05.800 so I don't know how that happened.

00:57:08.000 So you police each individual public gathering

00:57:14.080 or demonstration with the intelligence that you got

00:57:16.980 and the resources you got and the environment they're in.

00:57:19.500 It all takes the factors in how you police that individual.

00:57:23.940 It may look softly, softly one way,

00:57:26.480 but it may be that they've got other different intelligence.

00:57:29.520 And Chris, there was something that I particularly wanted to talk to you about

00:57:32.760 and this was an incident that happened a year and a half ago.

00:57:35.240 My parents were burgled and they actually interrupted the burglary.

00:57:40.400 The people fled.

00:57:41.600 My parents are in their 70s.

00:57:42.820 They're very old, very frail.

00:57:44.600 And then they called up the police

00:57:45.860 and then within one hour, the case was closed.

00:57:48.920 They were given a crime reference number

00:57:50.400 and they went, nothing more can be done.

00:57:53.200 Just to be clear, this is not just about his parents.

00:57:55.120 I've had the same thing

00:57:59.760 car broken into

00:58:00.700 we get a lot of our viewers

00:58:03.400 saying things like that

00:58:04.920 well it's priorities

00:58:06.980 you have to prioritise your resources

00:58:08.720 and the police resources are limited

00:58:11.340 so

00:58:13.200 for instance

00:58:14.700 I don't know the specifics

00:58:16.840 and that must have been horrifying

00:58:20.000 I know

00:58:20.720 the effect it has

00:58:23.220 on particularly elderly people, and it's terrible.

00:58:25.960 And when we were driven for figures,

00:58:27.680 when we actually used to go to every scene of a burglary

00:58:30.560 and sit with people,

00:58:31.820 we used to be required to do it within a certain time,

00:58:35.540 and that wasn't possible,

00:58:36.680 because impact on victims are different.

00:58:39.380 And sometimes you have to spend time with them,

00:58:40.700 you have to have a cup of tea with them.

00:58:42.100 You've got to get the scenes of crime officer,

00:58:43.880 you've got to get the builder to go and do their windows.

00:58:46.900 Sometimes you have to be there for hours.

00:58:48.760 But the demand on your resources

00:58:50.960 doesn't allow you to do that and they've you know in some cases they've decided that you know

00:58:57.720 a burglary where the the suspect is no longer there has to be reported reported over the phone

00:59:04.380 and um and sadly it means sometimes that a officer doesn't attend that scene and it sounds

00:59:11.180 like that's what happened do you agree with that oh god no obviously i don't agree with it i'd like

00:59:16.320 to everyone to get a bespoke um yeah of course i would i wouldn't it's frustrating as a manager

00:59:22.200 of a relief that i had you know that you can't go to these things police officers want to deal

00:59:29.280 with victims that's the most i say this most effective way is no one's screaming and shouting

00:59:35.420 you actually have a real effect you know you you know you're doing good when you sit because they'd

00:59:40.020 love to sit with every victim of crime and and have a cup of tea and make sure they're all right

00:59:45.380 and get them the appropriate support.

00:59:47.220 They'd love to do that.

00:59:48.620 And, you know, it's just frustrating

00:59:50.200 for most police officers that you can't.

00:59:52.120 How badly underfunded is the police service?

00:59:54.580 It's very badly underfunded.

00:59:55.340 It's been run down.

00:59:56.500 It's been run down since the austerity drive, you know.

01:00:01.600 And it's come to a point where you can't

01:00:04.140 have all these expectations on the police

01:00:06.780 and not fund them, you know.

01:00:08.240 And some of the people who are most loudest

01:00:09.920 about we need this, we need it,

01:00:11.820 are the ones that are cutting your legs.

01:00:13.040 You know, almost like, you know,

01:00:14.240 Douglas Howe said you know you're breaking the captain's the batsman's bat before you go out

01:00:19.140 you know you're actually expecting them to get 100 and you've broken their bat you know so no

01:00:23.860 it's very frustrating and they have been run down to dangerous levels do you think we've been lied

01:00:29.080 about that in the sense that that people I think some people are trying to claim that you can defund

01:00:34.320 not defund the police but you can reduce funding cut number of frontline officers and yet crime's

01:00:39.620 going to be fine no is that how it works no it doesn't work like that at all from your

01:00:43.960 experience if if there was enough resources a police officer would have spent time with your

01:00:48.280 parents you know made sure that was it was okay and that would have had a positive effect on you

01:00:53.600 and your family uh that's one direct result of defunding you know so you're going to have more

01:01:00.020 instances like that um that you've only got a certain amount of people to deal with a lot of

01:01:06.040 crime particularly you know domestic violence particularly you know you deal with an awful

01:01:09.900 a lot of domestic violence um you have to spend time with them because that victim sometimes you

01:01:15.540 look at that victim and they're saying i don't want to press the crime i don't want to press

01:01:20.120 charge and they're really screaming please get this man out of my house you know and and that

01:01:25.840 takes time you know you can't walk away from that you can't do that over the phone so you have to

01:01:31.400 prioritize different crimes you know with the with the limited resources that you've got and

01:01:36.100 it's very frustrating for managers very frustrating i mean how badly underfunded

01:01:40.740 the police services you said it was dangerous could you give us some examples of well it was

01:01:45.860 like your example you have but you've go into those officers who are policing black lives matter

01:01:54.140 they're policing you know anti-lockdown process every one of them could be reporting dealing with

01:02:00.480 a victim of crime on their own boroughs they're all just boroughs it's not a it's not a magic box

01:02:04.860 of riots trained officers who are going to go they're often pulled away from locals locals and

01:02:11.320 the more of those that go on the less resources are to deal with burglaries and robberies and

01:02:16.640 and domestic violence victims and rape victims on a local basis so it's totally irresponsible

01:02:22.720 on both sets and i don't agree with either of them you know it's totally responsible they're

01:02:27.240 dragging away resources and then they'll be crying crying that police officer never turned up

01:02:31.180 to a robbery or or the fact that you know someone someone's been beaten up by the husband and

01:02:36.500 someone's called and it took 10 10 minutes 15 minutes for them to get there because there's

01:02:40.760 no one you know that's where it comes from it's in there's a it's not a endless box of police

01:02:47.420 officers there's a limited resource um that is getting well they're trying to expand it at the

01:02:52.920 moment but with with what we've been hit our economy is being hit now when's that going to

01:02:58.440 happen i don't know who knows and what effect has lockdown had on the police what challenges have

01:03:03.600 they faced there are some positive effects lockdown in particular because there's not many there's not

01:03:08.560 as many people getting burgled for instance because everyone's at home there's not as many

01:03:12.240 people getting robbed because not as many people out on the street well not the last lockdown

01:03:15.880 because i see a lot of people out on the street but those things so you can move resources then

01:03:20.740 yeah lockdown is actually not too bad for the police because it means there are a lot of crimes

01:03:26.640 go down in a lot of ways i speak to regular officers regularly and they say yeah well that

01:03:31.260 that you know burglars have gone down robberies have gone down you know car theft's gone down

01:03:35.460 but they you know that means they're freeing up but we can't spend our lives locked in can we

01:03:40.080 really that's not an ideal that's not ideal um and the police don't want it either

01:03:45.600 chris thank you so much for coming on the show it's been an absolute pleasure

01:03:50.840 and well actually before we you're winding up the beginning but before we ask your last question

01:03:55.800 i wanted to ask you i think a lot of people and i include myself on this there's bits of policing

01:04:01.360 maybe i understand because like firearms is something i've always been interested in you

01:04:04.740 know i've shot guns play a lot of computer games whatever right so i have an idea i've done some

01:04:09.380 research but there's lots of other things i completely don't understand and i think

01:04:12.860 the public on many issues are also like that on many things so what do you think people don't know

01:04:19.160 or misunderstand about what being a police officer is like or what why police do certain

01:04:24.040 things that they do is there a thing that you wish would you if you could get across to everybody in

01:04:28.820 the country that they don't know what would it be well they're just representatives of of of you

01:04:33.740 you know they're just your son your daughter do it trying to do a job yeah they're not they don't

01:04:39.540 go to work to try and uh victimize people so that they can make their lives harder they don't go to

01:04:44.360 work to shoot people so that they can be involved in endless inquest and make their their their

01:04:50.180 lives horrible they do go to work just generally to you know to get through the day to help as

01:04:56.400 many people as they possibly can and to come home and earn a living um but if i would say

01:05:01.160 i would say anything to the members of the public is take what politicians say with a huge pinch of

01:05:07.440 salt yeah because they don't often tell you the truth and one more question something we had uh

01:05:12.760 the conservative comment that was very colombo of you by the way just one more question just one

01:05:16.760 or quite an interrogation going on.

01:05:18.880 But we had Peter Hitchens on the show.

01:05:20.980 I don't know if you know.

01:05:21.420 Oh, yeah.

01:05:21.980 And he's quite critical of the fact

01:05:24.260 that police no longer do as much beat policing

01:05:27.340 as they used to.

01:05:28.500 Yeah.

01:05:29.880 You can't.

01:05:30.660 You're just running.

01:05:31.240 You're firefighting.

01:05:32.160 You haven't got time to be walking around,

01:05:34.780 you know, talking about...

01:05:36.820 In them old days, you could do it.

01:05:38.440 But there wasn't performance indicators then.

01:05:41.260 There wasn't limited...

01:05:42.880 There wasn't the huge amount of crime

01:05:44.260 reported over the phone and the computers.

01:05:46.200 that's all accelerated and multiplied crime reporting you had time to walk from street to

01:05:51.480 street and you know where little harry comes click around here i'll get him to his mum you

01:05:55.260 ain't got time for that you're just firefighting an awful lot they're going from one call to another

01:05:58.860 i know i've managed these teams yeah they're just going from one call to another they haven't got

01:06:03.260 time sadly they'd love to oh if you said to a police officer please stay in this road today

01:06:08.260 and have a cup of tea with everyone on this road they'd love it you know they would love it but

01:06:12.920 they haven't got time to do it sadly because of the resources are so restricted and second time

01:06:19.160 round so what is the one thing that we're not talking about as a society but we really should

01:06:23.980 be oh wow what are we talking what we're not talking i think i think i think the thing that

01:06:30.340 we're not talking about is the fact that black parents and the black community have as much

01:06:35.800 vested interest in the police as the white community we're all it's all as is important

01:06:40.520 to all of us every color that we have a vibrant and useful police force that we back no one wants

01:06:47.380 to be a victim of crime no of any color and and and it all is if you look at the media it's as if

01:06:53.040 every black person thinks the police are the enemy and they don't i know they don't it's

01:06:58.560 disproportionately represented in the place in the in the media i think that makes a lot of sense

01:07:03.860 we do see a lot of that don't we yeah yeah chris listen it's been absolutely brilliant thank you

01:07:08.360 so much for coming on

01:07:09.120 if people want to follow

01:07:09.920 you know

01:07:10.440 you put your thoughts

01:07:11.340 out on Twitter

01:07:11.840 every now and again

01:07:12.520 where would you like

01:07:13.260 people to go to

01:07:14.040 do you mean

01:07:14.360 they keep in touch

01:07:15.260 well yeah

01:07:16.000 Chodron1963 on Twitter

01:07:17.540 is my handle

01:07:19.740 so yeah

01:07:20.360 if they want to

01:07:21.060 abuse me

01:07:22.020 please feel free

01:07:24.340 I'm used to it

01:07:25.160 no I think

01:07:25.720 your message actually

01:07:26.800 will resonate

01:07:27.260 with a lot of people

01:07:27.960 who watch the show

01:07:28.620 and they'll appreciate

01:07:29.340 you coming on

01:07:29.880 as do we

01:07:30.520 I've enjoyed it

01:07:31.120 thank you very much

01:07:31.720 for having me

01:07:32.100 thank you for coming on

01:07:32.980 and thank you for watching

01:07:34.240 we will see you very soon

01:07:35.560 with another episode

01:07:36.460 like this one

01:07:37.420 or a live stream all of them go out 7 p.m uk time take care and see you soon guys

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TRIGGERnometry - December 16, 2020

＂The Police Aren't Racist＂ - Former Met Officer Speaks Out

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