TRIGGERnometry - The Police Told Me to ＂Check My Thinking for a Tweet＂

00:00:00.000 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kishin.

00:00:09.060 And this is a show for you if you're bored with people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing about.

00:00:16.000 At Trigonometry, we don't pretend to be the experts, we ask the experts.

00:00:20.760 Our brilliant guest this week is the founder of We Are Fair Cop, Harry Miller, a.k.a. Harry the Owl.

00:00:26.760 Welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:27.760 thank you

00:00:28.920 he said

00:00:29.240 aka

00:00:29.680 Harry the Owl

00:00:30.600 unfortunately

00:00:31.180 Harry the Owl

00:00:32.620 is no more

00:00:33.460 Harry the Owl

00:00:34.560 was banned

00:00:35.500 from Twitter

00:00:36.480 about two months ago

00:00:38.600 what did you do?

00:00:40.600 well we're going to

00:00:41.080 get into that

00:00:41.680 yeah

00:00:42.000 yeah

00:00:42.320 well I

00:00:43.800 oh you were going to

00:00:44.500 get into it right now

00:00:45.180 go for it

00:00:45.540 yeah

00:00:45.860 I called

00:00:47.160 brave and stunning

00:00:49.340 world champion

00:00:50.040 cyclist

00:00:50.720 Rachel McKinnon

00:00:51.540 poster boy

00:00:52.600 and said Strava

00:00:54.540 ought to

00:00:55.200 it was actually

00:00:56.120 directed at Strava

00:00:56.960 and said

00:00:57.280 you really ought to check out your heroes when they're posting gifs of the angel of death dancing

00:01:04.580 up and down the grave of Magdalene Burns, who's just this day died of brain cancer. I don't think

00:01:09.780 that's a great look, Strava, for your poster boy. So it was the poster boy bit that got me a lifetime

00:01:14.740 ban. All right. So you got us off to a great start. But before we get fully into your story,

00:01:20.700 which is an absolutely crazy one, tell us a little bit about who are you, how are you,

00:01:25.840 where you are how have you ended up sitting in the chair talking to us i'm sitting in this chair

00:01:30.300 talking to you because um having posted on twitter uh a few controversial apparently controversial

00:01:37.700 things like um i don't believe trans women are literal women um i got a phone call i was out

00:01:43.560 doing the shopping at tesco's for my wife because that's the kind of guy i am and um i was just

00:01:48.180 sitting contemplating playing candy crush on my phone um before i went home and had to unpack it

00:01:53.040 and I got a phone call from my managing director

00:01:56.740 at the company I work for.

00:01:58.440 It's actually my company, so he works for me.

00:02:02.180 And he said, H, we've had the police in.

00:02:05.080 We've had a fellow called PC Gull wanting to speak to you.

00:02:08.020 He said, I've not given him your number

00:02:09.620 because that's down to him and you,

00:02:12.340 but he wants to speak to you.

00:02:13.440 He hasn't told me what it's about,

00:02:14.900 but he needs to speak to you.

00:02:17.220 So here's his number.

00:02:18.240 So yeah, okay, mate, I'll give him a ring back.

00:02:20.660 So I rang PC Gull back and I said, okay, mate, what have I done?

00:02:25.960 And he said, are you Harry the Owl on social media?

00:02:29.040 I said, yeah, absolutely, I am.

00:02:31.460 He said, okay, so we've had a complaint in from somebody down south.

00:02:36.280 I said, right, okay, this is Lincolnshire, right?

00:02:38.980 This is not down south.

00:02:40.240 He said, yeah, but they're very concerned about the transgender people in your workplace.

00:02:44.380 i said but as far as i know uh down at emingham dock i haven't got any transgender people in my

00:02:50.960 workplace so well it doesn't matter it doesn't matter um you might have and um maybe you haven't

00:02:57.300 got any because you're a hateful bigot like what what are you on about well apparently you've been

00:03:01.720 posting these on social media which makes your workplace a very dangerous place for trans people

00:03:06.120 i said let's just let's just back up a minute here let's just back up a minute i said have i

00:03:11.440 done anything criminal? Have I committed anything criminal? He said, oh no, you've not committed any

00:03:16.560 crime, no crime whatsoever. I said, so in that case, why are you ringing me? And he said, oh,

00:03:24.180 I need to check your thinking. And I said, now, hold on a minute, just one second. You're a police

00:03:32.300 officer. Yep. And you're ringing me to check my thinking. Yeah. I said, have you any idea what

00:03:39.520 that makes you and he said no so i then talked to him about um george orwell and i said that

00:03:48.740 1984 uh was a dystopian novel and not a police how-to manual i don't think he'd ever heard of

00:03:55.520 george orwell on 1984 but there we go and i said so um why are you ringing me he says well in case

00:04:04.540 what you're doing escalates into a crime i said what what what what is it that how could it possibly

00:04:10.680 escalate into a crime well it can do it can do and i need to warn you that um you mustn't you

00:04:16.420 mustn't do this because if it does escalate that could be very serious and already with what you've

00:04:21.060 done you could be in big trouble from your work from your hr department i said well i don't think

00:04:26.300 that's going to happen because i am the fucking hr department and all the people i employ are

00:04:31.860 sensible people, so we don't have to worry about that. But again, what crime is it you think I'm

00:04:38.160 about to commit? And of course, he talked about public order offences and he talked about malicious

00:04:44.320 communications. I said, but I've not maliciously communicated with anybody. It can't be a public

00:04:50.480 order offence because it's the Twittersphere. I've not gone out into the street and shouted

00:04:55.780 anything so that's absolute patent nonsense as well you know i said look what's your evidence

00:05:02.640 give me your evidence i'm an ex-policeman myself so give me your evidence he said well i've got 30

00:05:07.060 tweets here 30 right yeah okay so none of them are criminal no i said all right so in your opinion

00:05:13.840 your considered opinion which one out of those 30 is the one that comes closest to the line of

00:05:20.720 criminality. And it was at that point, he said, I'm going to read you a limerick.

00:05:27.120 It wasn't even a limerick, as it turns out. It was a verse by a feminist songwriter.

00:05:37.060 I'd not written it. I could barely remember it. All I'd done was retweet it. And I told

00:05:43.420 him, I said, I didn't write that. I didn't write that. He said, yeah, but you retweeted

00:05:46.920 it, which means that you are spreading hate.

00:05:49.360 What was the limerick?

00:05:49.980 it wasn't limerick it was um sorry yeah it was um i think it's a can i remember it it said um

00:05:56.380 your breasts are made of silicon your vagina goes nowhere um and we can tell the difference

00:06:02.620 even when you're not there your hormones are synthetic and let's just cross this bridge

00:06:08.360 what you are you stupid man is male privilege or something like that yeah so there's a reason no

00:06:14.680 one listens to feminist poetry yeah yeah it's not it's not gonna make my sort of um desert island

00:06:20.380 yeah uh it's something that some people may find insensitive or offensive but it's certainly not

00:06:27.140 criminal yeah who cares insensitive i don't care yeah so there's so much uh insensitivity all the

00:06:32.680 time especially on twitter yeah yeah absolutely who gives a shit about insensitivity yeah when

00:06:38.100 do we get so thin skinned that we have to call the police because somebody's written a song that

00:06:46.580 somebody else doesn't like and i happen to have retweeted it so it wasn't even something you said

00:06:52.860 it was a retweet and how did the conversation go from there i said well that's absolute that's

00:06:57.500 that complete and utter nonsense isn't it that's that's just that's just mad um but he said no no

00:07:02.120 no no it's not we we have to do it because we've got to um we've got to take um reports of hate

00:07:08.200 um very seriously i said but there wasn't any hate i didn't i don't hate anybody that's just

00:07:13.320 nonsense what you talk about hate for he says well we've got to report it as a hate incident

00:07:17.000 it is a hate incident i said how can it be a hate incident when there wasn't any hate he says

00:07:22.500 that's just the way it is we've got to respect the victim i said we've already established there

00:07:27.820 wasn't a victim he said yeah but that's what we have to call them we have to call them a victim

00:07:31.540 because they've reported it.

00:07:33.180 They're hurt by it.

00:07:33.840 Their feelings are hurt by it.

00:07:35.120 They're very, very worried about the trans people

00:07:36.940 in your organisation down at Immingham Dock.

00:07:39.780 They are the victim.

00:07:41.020 I said, well, who's the victim?

00:07:42.120 Is it the trans people that I don't have at Immingham Dock?

00:07:44.200 Or is it the person that's worried about the trans people

00:07:46.240 that I don't have at Immingham Dock?

00:07:47.840 Who is the victim?

00:07:49.240 Well, the complainant is the victim.

00:07:51.520 I said, so why don't you call them the complainant then?

00:07:54.280 Because they're the victim.

00:07:55.140 I said, but we've already established that there is no crime.

00:07:58.420 we've already established that i've no idea who this person i don't know who this person is it

00:08:03.840 wasn't directed at them how where is the hate how can there be a victim well that's just the way it

00:08:08.700 is they're the victim i said but you you've rung me up to talk to me about my words now this seems

00:08:13.500 entirely ironic to me because you're insisting on use of the term victim which by direct implication

00:08:20.940 makes me perpetrator it means that i am a perpetrator so every time you use the word

00:08:25.960 victim, you are calling me a perpetrator. I said, that can't be right. You need to watch

00:08:31.640 your language. And he said, well, I'm very, very sorry, but we have to do this because

00:08:35.980 of the victim. So we got into this endless, endless loop of utter nonsense. And then I

00:08:43.820 started talking to him and I said, look, I don't hate anybody. Seriously, I'm involved

00:08:49.980 in a political debate. There's the proposed reform to the GRA going through right now.

00:08:55.960 The government have called upon us to talk about this subject,

00:08:59.540 so I'm talking about it.

00:09:02.120 I'm using sarcasm.

00:09:04.740 I'm using banter.

00:09:06.140 I'm using fairly aggressive language,

00:09:12.200 occasionally like the word fuck or twat or what have you,

00:09:17.760 but it's not directed at anybody.

00:09:20.600 It's just Twitter, isn't it?

00:09:22.780 um and he said well yeah that doesn't make any difference because you've just got to be very

00:09:27.920 careful about what you say i said no i'm not going to be careful about what i say because

00:09:31.120 unless i've committed a crime then you can go screw yourself because i am not going to take

00:09:37.540 telling off from a two-bit police officer who's trying to stop me expressing my freedom of

00:09:43.140 expression i'm just not going to i'm not going to do it unless you can tell me what i've done wrong

00:09:47.560 go do one um and then we debate a little bit more and uh then sort of as a plea i think to my um

00:09:57.460 the angels of my better nature he said to me what you've got to understand mr miller is this

00:10:02.560 sometimes in the womb um a female brain accidentally grows the wrong body parts

00:10:11.500 and that's what being trans is i went you have got to be fucking kidding me he says yeah yeah

00:10:20.620 i've learned it on a course i said well i just can't believe it i am i cannot believe that

00:10:27.340 there's a police officer as dumb as you ringing me up going on about lady brains and penises

00:10:34.380 and telling me to check my thinking i said i think we're just going to end this conversation now and

00:10:39.300 You mate, you can go wash your socks and I'll put the phone down on him.

00:10:44.060 Then I went on Twitter and related this conversation because whilst I knew instinctively that there was something very wrong with it,

00:10:53.280 I wasn't certain what it was.

00:10:55.840 I knew it was something to do with free expression.

00:10:58.320 I wasn't quite certain.

00:10:59.880 It's been a long time since I was in the police, so I wasn't certain whether or not there'd been some new legislation passed

00:11:05.320 and in actual fact, I was doing something wrong.

00:11:08.020 So I went on to Twitter, recounted the story, and then I discovered very quickly that my instinct that it was wrong is actually enshrined in Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

00:11:20.940 And that says that I have the right to freedom of expression and the police have no right to try and interfere with me or limit that freedom of expression.

00:11:30.900 So at this point, I had some solid ground to work from.

00:11:35.360 um the entire world it seemed at the time went crazy over this um this thread of tweets that i'd

00:11:44.480 i'd put up um about thought crime etc it was quite funny because um

00:11:49.840 everybody bombarded humberside at humber beat with limericks for days and days and days and days

00:11:57.900 i remember i remember at one point they put up a fairly serious um short video of um of some guy

00:12:03.260 robbing a liquor store or something like that

00:12:07.280 and said, help us find, can anybody help us find this man?

00:12:10.220 And they were just inundated.

00:12:11.300 How dare you, Miss Gender?

00:12:13.100 Do you know that this is a man?

00:12:15.020 Report yourself a hate crime, report yourself a hate speech.

00:12:18.020 And then it was all done in glorious limerick form

00:12:21.080 in actual fact, which was quite amusing.

00:12:24.080 I tried to sort it out by getting hold of the local PCC

00:12:29.080 and saying, look, I think that your guys

00:12:31.860 have gone a little bit too far.

00:12:33.260 Is there any chance that we can have a sit down chat and we can work this out because it's all gone too far?

00:12:39.720 I'm very pro-police. I don't like the embarrassment that I'm causing you.

00:12:45.060 Can we talk about it? And in brave and stunning fashion, the PCC blocked me.

00:12:51.760 And not just blocked me, but blocked everybody else that tried to contact Humberside Police to talk about it.

00:12:59.240 so um luck north came and um did an interview with me and i remember saying that uh this is

00:13:05.940 all entirely wrong and um i'm going to take it further and i'm going to go for the home secretary

00:13:10.460 i'm coming direct for i'm not blaming pc gall i blame the home secretary for on this i was kind

00:13:16.560 of mr mark actually when he blamed the home secretary it turned out that the person i needed

00:13:20.700 to blame was the college of policing um so we worked all that out and um we wrote to we wrote

00:13:27.020 to the police and said we need a meeting we've got to sort this out but unfortunately the assistant

00:13:34.460 chief constable went on published I think on the Humberside police website that they were in fact

00:13:42.320 in possession of 30 transphobic tweets which were designed to cause distress to the trans community

00:13:49.900 and show hatred to the trans community and they and then the assistant chief constable repeated

00:13:55.900 the claim that the intervention was necessary in order to prevent escalation. Again, no word of

00:14:02.700 what that escalation might possibly be. So I put in a complaint against the ACC and said,

00:14:08.580 you don't get to say this. One, the only tweet I'm aware of is this so-called limerick.

00:14:15.980 And two, you just said there are 30. Where are the other 29? And they wouldn't give them to me.

00:14:21.980 They wouldn't let me know what the other 29 were.

00:14:24.560 I said, I want to see them.

00:14:25.660 You're making these statements about 30 transphobic tweets designed to cause hatred, designed

00:14:31.560 to cause upset, not upset as an unforeseeable or foreseeable consequence, designed to.

00:14:39.140 I want to see the evidence.

00:14:40.700 And they wouldn't release it.

00:14:42.420 They made me put in a subject access request, and I eventually got the tweets in June.

00:14:49.060 i've got him here yeah you know what he reminds me of you know when you've pissed off your

00:14:56.560 girlfriend or your wife and she's like well unless you know what you've done then you know

00:15:00.720 you then there's no point talking about it oh well i did i'd read all i knew was that i pissed

00:15:05.840 people off and i'd retweeted a non-limeric so eventually i got through by a subject access

00:15:12.500 request which by the way they obfuscated i'd not used the right form i'd not provided the right

00:15:17.500 data blah blah blah all the rest of it i like this is beginning to feel like you've got something to

00:15:22.680 hide anyway eventually eventually give us the best example we don't have time for 30 but no no i'm

00:15:29.180 gonna give you i'm gonna give you some of the best ones right okay so um tweet number one just had

00:15:35.360 my son on from oxford the anti-jenny murray crowd are out baying screaming and spitting at students

00:15:41.240 who went to see Steve Bannon and barricaded their way.

00:15:46.640 That, apparently, is hate against the transgender community.

00:15:52.540 What?

00:15:53.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:15:54.500 That is hate designed to cause distress to the transgender community.

00:15:58.880 Do you know why?

00:16:00.040 No.

00:16:00.440 Because I mentioned Jenny Murray.

00:16:02.000 I dare to mention Jenny Murray.

00:16:04.480 And as we all know, the Woman's Hour presenter is a hateful trans phone.

00:16:08.640 And because I mentioned Jenny Murray, that is evidence number one, tweet number one, of the Humberside case against me, that I mention Jenny Murray.

00:16:22.400 I then have the temerity to ask this.

00:16:25.760 Is trans day of remembrance a thing, then, like an actual one?

00:16:30.680 That is hate speech.

00:16:32.460 That is hate speech designed to cause distress to the trans community.

00:16:37.680 Okay.

00:16:38.640 And then another one is, I retweet Andrew Gilligan.

00:16:42.740 So again, that clear evidence of hate.

00:16:46.560 This is a good one.

00:16:48.680 This is a picture of Bruce Jenner.

00:16:52.780 And I put, dear Twitter, given your rules on deadnaming,

00:16:56.120 could you please clarify who won gold at the 1976 Olympic men's decathlon?

00:17:01.740 That is a great...

00:17:03.240 Oh no, no, it's not.

00:17:04.800 I'm just going to warn you, that is clear evidence

00:17:07.740 evidence of hate hate so bad it requires pc gall to go to my workplace to ring me up

00:17:16.580 to have a 34 minute conversation where he lectures me on thoughts and lady brains and all the rest of

00:17:22.400 it where it enough to prompt the assistant chief constable to publish a statement saying that i'm

00:17:30.320 a dangerous transphobe all the rest of it okay because i dare to ask that question there's an

00:17:36.660 even better one there's an even better one here and a lot of this is redacted so i don't know

00:17:40.900 sometimes what it is that i'm supposed to have said but i say um oh here it is her question mark

00:17:50.400 what the fuck yeah so what i'm saying so what is that in response to well i have no idea because

00:17:58.320 it's been redacted so we can't we can't tell but but but this would be a really great competition

00:18:02.720 wouldn't it what could that possibly say in there where where her yeah question mark becomes hate

00:18:11.300 now there is only one answer to that and that is if in that box it says everybody that hates trans

00:18:16.060 people say her and if i yeah if it says that then you know guilty as charged but i don't i don't

00:18:21.020 remember it saying that actually so i'm not entirely sure how how her her which i think

00:18:27.940 he's defined as

00:18:28.600 a quizzical expression

00:18:30.040 expressing doubt.

00:18:31.280 Yeah.

00:18:33.040 I'm at a real loss

00:18:34.620 how her is hate speech.

00:18:37.920 This doesn't make

00:18:38.400 any fucking sense to me.

00:18:39.620 Well, of course

00:18:39.960 it doesn't make any sense.

00:18:41.020 No, I mean this whole thing,

00:18:41.900 like...

00:18:42.400 No, not at all.

00:18:43.300 But it gets even better.

00:18:45.040 So there are 30 of these

00:18:46.060 and they're all like that.

00:18:47.300 Okay, hands up.

00:18:48.600 There are one or two

00:18:49.180 where I call

00:18:49.880 Dr. Adrian Harrop

00:18:51.940 a bit of a twat

00:18:53.440 and I think

00:18:55.720 I'd probably call

00:18:56.520 that woman

00:18:59.580 out in Canada

00:19:00.360 who's offered

00:19:01.720 trans in children

00:19:02.680 a bit of a twat

00:19:03.720 Jessica Yaniv

00:19:04.540 no not

00:19:05.220 Jessica Yaniv

00:19:06.340 is a twat

00:19:07.120 she's not a bit of a twat

00:19:09.320 she's a twat

00:19:10.460 proven twat

00:19:11.320 when it comes to the

00:19:12.340 twat scale

00:19:12.980 she's at the end

00:19:13.600 yeah yeah yeah

00:19:14.660 but that's it

00:19:16.040 that's it

00:19:16.660 they weren't the ones

00:19:17.980 that the police

00:19:18.460 are bothered about

00:19:19.140 it's her

00:19:20.700 her

00:19:21.220 daring

00:19:22.300 daring to quizzically

00:19:23.900 question

00:19:24.460 the idea of

00:19:26.700 the whole trans

00:19:28.380 doctrine is

00:19:29.980 hate speech. It is

00:19:32.120 hate speech according to both

00:19:34.200 Humberside Police and

00:19:36.400 the College of Policing.

00:19:38.320 Now, what we've done

00:19:40.380 is we said

00:19:42.040 bullshit.

00:19:44.860 We're not having it.

00:19:46.500 We're just not having it.

00:19:48.360 So as part of the subject access

00:19:50.440 request, I got

00:19:52.540 of documentation that logs my hate incident. And this is interesting because it doesn't say hate

00:19:59.580 incident at the top. It says crime report at the top. And then it says my name and the details.

00:20:08.180 And then it says offense, trans hate speech. And then you look further down and the category

00:20:16.900 is, get this, crime non-crime.

00:20:20.840 So there is a category of crime non-crime

00:20:23.860 marking offences on a crime report

00:20:28.160 and that is something that apparently

00:20:30.860 I'm not supposed to worry about.

00:20:33.800 So, right, okay.

00:20:35.820 Did he get that?

00:20:36.640 Look at his face.

00:20:37.220 Look at his face.

00:20:39.020 It's early in the morning for a comedian

00:20:41.220 and this is painful for me.

00:20:43.420 Right, but so crime non-crime.

00:20:45.600 What is crime non-crime?

00:20:48.320 Ah, well, a crime non-crime is when it's a crime,

00:20:51.040 but it's not a crime.

00:20:51.820 It's Schrodinger's crime.

00:20:53.040 Okay.

00:20:53.380 Yeah, it's both a crime and a non-crime,

00:20:55.120 depending on who's looking at it.

00:20:56.800 So, on the one hand, this is their argument,

00:21:00.320 because we said, you've got to get rid of that crime report,

00:21:02.020 that crime non-crime report.

00:21:03.040 We're not having that against my name.

00:21:04.440 Get rid of it.

00:21:04.960 And they said, no, we're not.

00:21:05.940 It's purely for administrative purposes.

00:21:08.360 Like, no, it's not purely for administrative purposes, is it?

00:21:10.860 Because will it appear on an enhanced DBS check?

00:21:15.600 it might.

00:21:18.440 Just for our American viewers and listeners,

00:21:20.800 DBS check is when you,

00:21:22.140 if you want to teach or whatever else,

00:21:23.440 they do an in-depth security check on you.

00:21:24.920 So basically there are certain professions,

00:21:27.380 if you were to be attempting to be employed

00:21:29.980 in those professions,

00:21:31.200 having tweeted HUT and a bunch of other things,

00:21:35.160 you would then be prevented

00:21:38.060 from working in those professions potentially.

00:21:40.620 A potential employer would see

00:21:43.300 that you were a potentially

00:21:44.640 a hate criminal, essentially.

00:21:46.600 Yes, exactly.

00:21:47.620 Because even though it's

00:21:49.140 classed as a hate incident,

00:21:50.900 it's on, you know,

00:21:51.660 you're a potential employer.

00:21:53.460 I apply to you.

00:21:55.320 You do your enhanced EBS, right?

00:21:56.860 It comes through

00:21:57.480 and you get the form

00:21:58.440 that says crime report on it.

00:22:00.000 What are you going to do with that?

00:22:01.240 You're going to slim

00:22:02.440 my application into the bin.

00:22:04.400 But you're not going to read through

00:22:06.360 and go, oh, this is fine

00:22:08.340 because it may be an offence

00:22:09.660 of trans hate.

00:22:11.320 But look down here.

00:22:12.320 It says crime, non-crime.

00:22:13.600 So, yeah, he seems ideal.

00:22:15.640 Let's take him.

00:22:16.560 And we said, no, you can't do that.

00:22:18.640 And they said, well, it won't necessarily happen.

00:22:21.180 It depends on the whim of the chief constable.

00:22:23.220 Well, this gets even crazier then, doesn't it?

00:22:25.300 So I've got to base my future career on the whims of a chief constable.

00:22:33.340 It's not just the chief constable.

00:22:34.520 It depends on the sector that you're applying to.

00:22:37.080 So, OK, so let's just say that I'm applying for a job with a charity

00:22:40.800 that happens to employ and work with trans people. Would that count? Well, it might.

00:22:49.480 So in that case, this is a serious thing then, isn't it? This is career limiting. This is proper

00:22:54.600 career limiting. And it's a crime, non-crime. Where's the judicial process? How do I appeal

00:23:03.480 this? Well, there is no appeal. What do you mean there's no appeal? Well, because the College of

00:23:10.260 police guidelines tell us that we have to log all reports of hate as hate and give them a hate

00:23:20.300 incident log on a crime report, Shahid, categorised as crime, non-crime, and no evidence is necessary.

00:23:27.680 That's what the College of Police guidelines say, that there is no evidence of hate necessary

00:23:34.540 to record a hate crime or incident now we looked at that and said this just is a travesty it

00:23:42.960 contravenes all notions of natural justice and actual justice so we launched our judicial review

00:23:51.420 in the summer and we said humberside police you will remove that hate incident against my name

00:23:56.660 and college of policing you will get rid of your hate crime guidance that talks about no evidence

00:24:03.700 is necessary. And we had our two days in court three weeks ago, and we're now waiting on the

00:24:10.420 judgment. And by the time this comes out, there may be a judgment. Yeah, I think we'll probably

00:24:14.800 have a judgment next week. Okay. So yeah, it probably will have happened and we'll make sure

00:24:18.540 to mention it. Because a lot of people see freedom of speech as a right-wing issue. They

00:24:25.140 say there's no problem with freedom of speech in this country. You're free to say what you want

00:24:29.000 and all the rest of it. But what your case has clearly demonstrated is that if you say something

00:24:34.840 which goes against what they want you to say, then that could have very real implications on

00:24:41.680 your career, your earning power, all the rest of it. Oh, absolutely. Massive. And the whole thing

00:24:47.740 has happened outside of the judicial process, because this has not been debated in Parliament.

00:24:54.120 there haven't been laws passed what's happened is we've got laws gone through the back door

00:25:01.460 so it's a policy spiral is what's happened and this has all happened on the back of the

00:25:08.940 McPherson report and the into the the death of Stephen Lawrence and McPherson does make a link

00:25:15.280 between low-level hate incident and serious hate crime and the logic behind that is tackle the

00:25:23.160 low-level incident, and you stand a chance of preventing the serious crime.

00:25:29.360 And the logic to that seems absolutely fine.

00:25:33.880 Now, what the government have done in 2010, they presented us with nine protected characteristics

00:25:41.000 in the Equalities Act.

00:25:42.660 and so if you are

00:25:47.300 if you are gay

00:25:49.440 if you're a

00:25:53.420 woman sex is a protected characteristic

00:25:55.640 being disabled is a protected characteristic

00:25:57.540 ethnicity

00:25:58.440 protected characteristic yeah

00:26:00.440 holding a GRC or planning to have a GRC

00:26:03.660 is a protected characteristic

00:26:04.600 gender recognition certificate

00:26:05.700 you can get a certificate

00:26:07.720 well actually for some things you have to

00:26:10.240 it's not like a medal

00:26:10.720 You don't like hand it out on National Trans Day because apparently National Trans Day is a thing.

00:26:17.300 They don't hand out medals or anything like that.

00:26:19.260 No, no.

00:26:19.540 I'd love a certificate.

00:26:20.700 Well, you can get one.

00:26:21.880 You just have to transition first.

00:26:23.180 Oh, okay.

00:26:23.440 Right, okay.

00:26:23.880 There you go.

00:26:24.380 Just for anyone who doesn't know, my understanding is essentially that there are certain things that you can't do unless you go through the full process of having your gender recognized with a certificate.

00:26:36.380 Okay.

00:26:36.880 So it's part of the process of transitioning.

00:26:39.260 lawfully under the law

00:26:41.660 so that you are treated

00:26:42.700 for the purposes of the law

00:26:44.080 as the gender that you claim.

00:26:47.040 Whereas if you were just to say,

00:26:48.800 I'm a woman,

00:26:49.600 you wouldn't necessarily have

00:26:51.340 all the rights that a woman might have

00:26:52.820 in court or elsewhere.

00:26:54.220 That's basically it.

00:26:54.960 So the reform to the GRA

00:26:56.700 is where precisely that would happen.

00:26:59.220 They're trying to take that away.

00:27:00.400 They're trying to take that away.

00:27:01.300 Precisely that would happen.

00:27:01.640 So there is no checks and balances,

00:27:03.440 nothing.

00:27:04.100 It's just that you are

00:27:05.300 who you say you are.

00:27:07.040 Just like that.

00:27:07.980 As, in fact,

00:27:08.920 was it Luciana Berger

00:27:10.120 on the Today programme

00:27:11.620 a couple of weeks ago

00:27:12.960 Nick Robinson said

00:27:13.980 so

00:27:14.200 okay

00:27:14.780 if I stand here

00:27:15.980 sit here before you

00:27:16.740 and say

00:27:17.020 I am a woman

00:27:17.760 am I a woman

00:27:18.760 and they said

00:27:19.420 if you say so

00:27:20.280 yes

00:27:20.740 like

00:27:21.320 really

00:27:23.040 really

00:27:23.540 this is

00:27:24.200 this is absolutely not

00:27:25.360 so

00:27:25.560 that is one way

00:27:26.800 to win over female voters

00:27:28.020 in this one

00:27:28.500 to be fair

00:27:29.540 Jo Swinson

00:27:30.880 is doing so well

00:27:32.000 isn't she with this

00:27:32.640 women love that

00:27:33.720 it's an absolute

00:27:34.420 flipping

00:27:34.900 hey we're recording this

00:27:35.780 on the day of the election

00:27:36.760 you never know

00:27:37.740 we might wake up tomorrow

00:27:38.820 and Joe Swinson's prime minister.

00:27:40.340 Yeah, yeah, we might, we might.

00:27:43.080 So we've got these nine protected characteristics.

00:27:45.680 But what the College of Policing have done,

00:27:47.580 they've magically turned them into five monitored strands.

00:27:51.860 So, okay, so we've got nine protected characteristics.

00:27:55.620 All right, pick a card.

00:27:58.080 Let's go for number seven.

00:27:59.700 Not number seven.

00:28:00.540 Okay, number seven, number seven is you're old.

00:28:04.980 That's not monitored strand.

00:28:06.640 So age is a protected characteristic,

00:28:07.860 but you know

00:28:09.360 the police don't give a shit

00:28:10.540 about ageist insults

00:28:12.740 pick another one

00:28:13.660 okay number four

00:28:15.000 oh my god

00:28:16.500 you've picked sex

00:28:18.060 you've picked sex

00:28:18.920 sex is a protected characteristic

00:28:20.860 but it doesn't figure highly enough

00:28:24.100 for the police to have it

00:28:26.120 as a monitored strand

00:28:27.060 because apparently

00:28:28.160 women aren't oppressed enough

00:28:29.300 they need to

00:28:30.560 they're doing really shit

00:28:32.260 at the oppression olympics

00:28:33.660 and they're just not

00:28:35.320 they're just not oppressed enough

00:28:36.660 There are not enough women killed for the police to be bothered

00:28:39.520 about monitoring hate against women.

00:28:42.280 So, again, try another one.

00:28:43.620 Sexist jokes are still okay is what you're saying.

00:28:45.340 Brilliant, brilliant.

00:28:46.460 So your career is fine.

00:28:47.460 My comedy career is fucking brilliant.

00:28:49.100 Pick it along, pick it along.

00:28:50.660 Let's go for number two.

00:28:52.060 Ah, number two.

00:28:52.980 Well, that's it.

00:28:53.700 You hit the jackpot because that is gender identity,

00:28:57.580 which incidentally isn't a thing in the Equality Act,

00:29:01.200 but it does appear in the five monitors trance.

00:29:04.180 so you have full protection

00:29:06.720 all you need to do is say

00:29:08.380 I am a whatever

00:29:10.780 and apparently there are now 100

00:29:12.780 genders, all of which

00:29:14.900 are protected

00:29:16.000 because you ask for a definition

00:29:18.660 of transphobia

00:29:19.860 of the police

00:29:21.440 and they actually said in court

00:29:24.180 just three weeks ago

00:29:25.980 definitions don't matter

00:29:27.900 that's what they actually said

00:29:30.120 definitions don't matter

00:29:32.120 and then they moved the conversation on

00:29:34.120 So let's just get this clear.

00:29:35.340 What do we mean by, as in scientific definitions of male and female?

00:29:38.600 Don't matter or?

00:29:39.960 The definition of transphobia doesn't matter.

00:29:41.940 Okay, right.

00:29:42.780 Because no evidence, that would require evidence.

00:29:44.940 That would require some basis in reality.

00:29:47.060 And we've already established that no evidence whatsoever is required

00:29:50.940 to have a hate incident, brackets, transphobia.

00:29:55.640 So if you say to me that your identity is, I don't know, smoke,

00:30:01.840 you are a smoke identity.

00:30:04.120 or a more modern vape identity, I guess.

00:30:09.260 And I say,

00:30:11.760 I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that.

00:30:14.500 I think that's bullshit.

00:30:16.540 You can ring up the police,

00:30:18.600 and you can report me,

00:30:20.200 and no evidence is required,

00:30:21.900 no definition is required.

00:30:23.840 You believe that I'm a transphobe.

00:30:26.000 Bingo.

00:30:26.740 I get another hate incident that gets my name.

00:30:29.240 I just want to pause for a moment,

00:30:31.000 because I feel like I'm in a dream of some kind.

00:30:33.680 Yeah, me too. This is bizarre. This is absolutely bizarre. And a lot of people watching this will

00:30:37.780 think that this is just bizarre. And yet what you're talking about is true. And it's the same

00:30:44.520 with hate incidents against people of different backgrounds, immigrants like me. If I was to say

00:30:49.280 that in the course of this conversation, you'd been rude to me, and that was because I'm an

00:30:53.860 immigrant, I could report that. And that would have to be recorded as a hate incident with no

00:30:59.440 evidence, no investigation, no proof. And this is Britain in 2019. This doesn't make any sense.

00:31:07.960 It makes no sense at all. And this is why it's so dangerous. And this is why Fair Cop have come

00:31:12.880 into existence to push back against this nonsense, because we see what happens in, we've seen what

00:31:19.720 happens in history and in other countries. And the thing is, totalitarian regimes, as a rule,

00:31:27.860 don't come stomping in saying we're a totalitarian regime.

00:31:31.740 They come in promising freedom and equality

00:31:34.680 and we're going to free the oppressed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:31:37.760 But the net result is the same.

00:31:39.000 You end up with a totalitarian regime.

00:31:42.520 So we're saying that we've just got to put a stop to this.

00:31:45.020 We are calling this out.

00:31:47.440 And my solicitor, when we went directly against the College of Policing,

00:31:52.680 he said there are so many fights in the gender debate

00:31:55.340 that happen at the top of the Jenga pile.

00:31:57.860 And, you know, you either win or you lose.

00:31:59.500 But by going for the College of Policing, we're going for the bottom of the jenker pile.

00:32:04.760 We're planning on pulling out that bottom one, which gives us a cat in hell's chance of collapsing the whole shit show.

00:32:11.140 And that's what we want to do.

00:32:12.840 We want to collapse the entire shit show and get back to the rule of law, as opposed to this policy spiral, which has just captured institution after institution.

00:32:25.240 They've captured the police.

00:32:26.260 they've captured hr departments they've captured universities they've captured everything absolutely

00:32:33.540 everything with this gender nonsense whereas if you if you refuse to wear your white pink and blue

00:32:41.140 lanyard on trans day of remembrance that in itself becomes possibly a hate incident because

00:32:48.520 you are not sharing positive support for a stunning and brave oppressed community and you

00:32:54.300 get in trouble for it and we're saying enough is enough this has got to stop somebody's got to be

00:32:58.700 brave enough to stand up and call bollocks on all this and that's what we're we are fair copper

00:33:03.860 doing and i can imagine the public getting quite rightly enraged with it because essentially being

00:33:10.740 told what to think and feel but also when you look at take the example of what's happening in london

00:33:14.740 where we have a knife crime epidemic yeah and you think that is what the police should be

00:33:19.840 concentrating on well we've just looked at my case my case alone we've had a police constable

00:33:25.940 who took the trouble to investigate before they even came to me ring my office come to my office

00:33:33.320 spend 34 minutes on the phone to me 34 minutes on the phone to me that's a long time an assistant

00:33:40.140 chief constable go in the press and say what he had to say and then an inspector ring me up when

00:33:46.360 i was in australia and um give me another lecture and i i remember saying to him i said look i'm

00:33:52.660 part of a debate how do i say trans women are not women without getting into trouble by the police

00:33:59.200 and he said why would you want to say that because you know it upsets people and i said but that's

00:34:05.620 crazy i can walk down the street and people are upset all the time if you're a lever and you see

00:34:10.960 your Remain poster, you're upset.

00:34:13.560 At election time, you walk down the street.

00:34:15.980 If you're a Labour voter, you see a Tory, you're upset.

00:34:18.940 I thought you were going to say a Jew.

00:34:22.040 You're upset.

00:34:22.880 People get upset all the time.

00:34:24.700 So why is it you're so bothered about this one?

00:34:27.640 Why is that?

00:34:28.740 He said, because they are a brave and stunning community

00:34:31.160 and we have to protect them at all costs.

00:34:34.080 And we're not saying you can't say trans women aren't women,

00:34:37.820 but why would you want to?

00:34:39.300 Now, to me, when a police officer says that, that is a form of coercive control.

00:34:46.000 And they just got unlucky that they came against me because, one, I'm an ex-policeman,

00:34:50.760 so the whole mystique about policing is gone.

00:34:53.940 Two, I'm just not easily bullied.

00:34:56.360 I'm just not easily bullied by anybody.

00:34:58.580 And I have a real interest in law.

00:35:01.180 So when people are talking bullshit, I'm going to call them out for bullshit.

00:35:04.340 And that's what happened here.

00:35:05.100 And I said to him, I said, look, if I, as a motorist, am doing a steady 35 in a 40 zone,

00:35:12.020 are you going to pull me over in case I escalate to 45?

00:35:16.300 And he said to me, we can do whatever we like.

00:35:19.080 We're the police.

00:35:20.320 That's what he said.

00:35:21.580 That is what he said.

00:35:23.180 And I said, actually, to be fair, he says, the traffic police can do whatever they like.

00:35:27.200 And I said, hold on a minute.

00:35:28.880 That's a massive obfuscation.

00:35:30.840 And you know it.

00:35:31.920 You know it.

00:35:32.700 That would not happen.

00:35:34.500 And he said, well, if you don't like it, sue us.

00:35:36.860 I said, that's the first sensible thing you've said all day.

00:35:39.900 See you in court.

00:35:40.900 And that's how we ended up at the high court three weeks ago.

00:35:44.120 Let me ask you this as an ex-policeman.

00:35:46.080 One of the, coming from Russia and having traveled a lot around the world,

00:35:49.580 one of the things I've always thought has been wonderful about this country

00:35:52.640 is the relation between the ordinary public and the police.

00:35:57.120 It's tremendous in this country.

00:35:58.560 And people don't realize this because if you haven't experienced anything else,

00:36:01.800 it seems normal.

00:36:02.580 But, for example, the idea that in Russia you'd walk up to a policeman to ask for directions, it's unimaginable.

00:36:09.940 I once did it, I think, in Prague in the Czech Republic with some Czech friends.

00:36:15.040 I walked up to a policeman just instinctively because I spent so much time in this country and I asked for directions.

00:36:20.620 And they all looked at me like I'd just gone up to the devil and asked for directions.

00:36:25.500 We in this country have a fantastic relationship between the ordinary public and the police.

00:36:30.620 What do you think the impact of that as an ex-copper of this?

00:36:34.440 Because I see people on the internet going all the time,

00:36:36.640 yeah, of course the police aren't investigating crimes.

00:36:38.740 They're too busy talking to someone like Harry de Al.

00:36:41.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:41.700 And, you know, people go, oh, that's just a myth.

00:36:44.180 Well, it's not a myth.

00:36:45.000 They are.

00:36:45.580 They are spending their time.

00:36:46.820 And it erodes.

00:36:48.160 It erodes trust because we don't have a police force.

00:36:50.840 We have a police service that operates by consent.

00:36:57.540 Yes.

00:36:57.820 Absolutely.

00:36:58.100 So police officers are ordinary citizens who've chosen to give up their time and are paid accordingly in order to help police and make the world a better place.

00:37:07.580 OK, so it's all done by consent.

00:37:11.120 The trouble here is that the police have been captured, have been ideologically captured by Stonewall, by mermaids and basically by a political ideology.

00:37:25.400 And out of fear of doing the wrong thing again, very much with McPherson and the Stephen Lawrence inquiry in mind, they've done what Douglas Murray talked about, which is overcorrect.

00:37:37.300 They've overcorrected.

00:37:39.220 So they've taken a good lesson and they've spread it so far that it's now become a bad lesson and a bad practice.

00:37:49.780 And they're also ignorant.

00:37:51.020 They don't understand the difference between policy and law. That has become patently obvious

00:37:58.960 throughout this entire process. Because when you ask them the basis of their policy, what is the

00:38:05.020 legal statutory basis for the policy, they just give you a policy. It's just an entire circular

00:38:11.460 argument all the time. Because they don't have a legal basis to work from. And so many of them

00:38:20.520 was too uneducated in law

00:38:23.160 to realise that's what they're doing.

00:38:25.620 And I think even if they did know

00:38:26.980 that's what they were doing,

00:38:28.000 they can't do anything about it

00:38:28.980 because the higher echelons of the police

00:38:31.860 have entirely bought into this nonsense.

00:38:35.640 The higher echelons of the police

00:38:37.420 are signing pledges to Stonewall.

00:38:41.920 They're having rainbow colours

00:38:45.780 in their senior rank epaulets.

00:38:49.440 Constantine's got some as well.

00:38:51.860 Have you?

00:38:52.600 Yeah, he does.

00:38:53.560 Have you got some rainbow laces?

00:38:55.840 He's got some rainbow pants.

00:38:57.340 Anyway.

00:38:57.640 I've got rainbow underpants.

00:38:58.820 I'll show you after this.

00:38:59.820 Seriously, this ideological capture.

00:39:01.840 Now, this is not conspiracy theory.

00:39:03.780 You just wait until the judgment comes out from the judicial review

00:39:08.100 because everything that I'm telling you now was said at the judicial review.

00:39:13.520 Right.

00:39:13.820 Absolutely.

00:39:14.660 So, Harry, let me just get this.

00:39:16.620 I mean, I don't know that much about the police, but my instinct instinctively is that the police are not generally the kind of people that would be so massively obsessed with social justice and all this kind of stuff.

00:39:32.460 I imagine the ordinary rank and file officer is someone who's, you know, an ordinary man or woman, you know, they don't have this design.

00:39:40.880 And frankly, I'd imagine a lot of them are fairly conservative people by nature, small C conservatives.

00:39:46.620 law and order, all that kind of stuff. That's the kind of people that tend to go into the police

00:39:50.500 force. So how has that institution been so thoroughly infiltrated in this way?

00:39:56.440 Because again, if I can relate back to Douglas Murray, they've been taught to forget what they

00:40:01.760 knew yesterday. That's what's happened. We all know the difference between a man and a woman,

00:40:07.180 all of us. We all know that this, saying a limerick or saying her or questioning Caitlyn

00:40:15.320 jenner bruce jenner or what have you we all know it's not hate but nobody dare admit it they're all

00:40:21.800 too scared because they've been captured they've been ideologically captured by the groups that

00:40:27.660 are pushing this agenda which is stonewall but why do these groups have so much power because

00:40:34.080 you know you they're a tiny minority and there's the it's the rest of the british population

00:40:39.560 why they have it

00:40:42.380 and how they have it

00:40:43.120 I'm not entirely sure

00:40:44.880 the only thing I can do

00:40:46.160 is when you do

00:40:46.680 a root cause analysis

00:40:47.580 you seem to get nowhere

00:40:48.980 people say

00:40:49.540 follow the money

00:40:50.720 to Big Farmer

00:40:51.520 and follow the money

00:40:52.280 to blah blah blah

00:40:52.900 kind of

00:40:54.960 but do you watch

00:40:56.100 Game of Thrones?

00:40:56.900 Yes

00:40:57.100 Okay so

00:40:57.760 I think

00:40:58.960 the real power

00:41:00.260 in Game of Thrones

00:41:01.020 I don't think is

00:41:02.400 Spoiler alert

00:41:03.140 is

00:41:03.700 is the Lannisters

00:41:05.880 or the Targaryens

00:41:08.640 or what have you.

00:41:10.040 I think the real power

00:41:11.120 is in the likes of Varys and Littlefinger.

00:41:14.920 Yes.

00:41:15.660 Who are like free-floating radicals

00:41:18.380 who managed to insinuate

00:41:21.060 into the mighty houses

00:41:24.020 and because of their knowledge,

00:41:27.380 charm, connections or what have you,

00:41:28.840 managed to spread their message.

00:41:31.940 And I think they're the ones

00:41:33.100 with the real power.

00:41:34.280 And I think it doesn't take many people,

00:41:36.820 many committed, bright people

00:41:38.840 to get into these organizations

00:41:41.080 and they do it in a Trojan horse manner.

00:41:43.480 So they will come in and talk about,

00:41:44.880 okay, with the police.

00:41:46.400 Remember how bad you got it wrong

00:41:47.640 with McPherson, with Stephen Lawrence?

00:41:49.460 Oh God, yeah, yeah.

00:41:50.300 Remember how bad you got it wrong

00:41:52.060 with the gays?

00:41:53.180 Oh my God, yeah, yeah.

00:41:54.480 Right, okay.

00:41:54.940 Well, we are the LGB organization, right?

00:41:57.280 And we can sort out your policies.

00:42:00.140 We'll sort all that out for you.

00:42:02.420 And they are, yeah, fantastic, fantastic.

00:42:04.000 Yeah, we'll do that.

00:42:04.800 Yeah, great.

00:42:05.320 publicize that you're really pro-LGB and all this sort of stuff and pro-race and we'll sort it all

00:42:10.940 out for you. And they go in and they write the document and the first several pages are great.

00:42:16.320 And then towards the back, they stick in a whole bunch of stuff about gender identity, which is

00:42:20.760 not based in law. It simply isn't based in law. So you have a policy spiral that has been

00:42:28.800 insinuated into policy and then it's signed off and that's it it's law by the back door

00:42:36.920 is what it is and again we have we have proof of this because we've done

00:42:40.720 freedom of information requests i've got police officers in a number of forces who

00:42:46.480 who work with fair cop and who will log us into their intranet etc and you'll look at

00:42:55.900 documentation, an internal documentation,

00:42:58.840 for instance, an internal documentation

00:43:00.040 that says how to treat

00:43:01.580 trans prisoners.

00:43:04.220 So it says, this is

00:43:06.020 in the Met, a trans prisoner

00:43:07.180 has to be searched by

00:43:09.900 the gender of their choosing.

00:43:12.900 Their choosing.

00:43:13.940 What if their gender's not available?

00:43:15.680 What if smoke gender isn't around?

00:43:17.200 Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.

00:43:19.160 If smoke gender's not available, you're screwed.

00:43:21.760 Or, let's just take it down to real basics.

00:43:24.300 You've been arrested on a Saturday night

00:43:25.780 you're high as a flipping kite

00:43:27.380 and they think

00:43:28.800 you've possibly got

00:43:29.820 a wrap of drugs

00:43:30.500 around your belly

00:43:31.060 I told you this in private

00:43:32.220 edit that out

00:43:35.280 edit that out

00:43:36.300 you've got

00:43:38.340 we think you've got

00:43:39.400 a wrap of something

00:43:40.460 around your belly

00:43:40.960 yeah

00:43:41.360 you're there

00:43:43.040 and you're in the custody suite

00:43:44.920 and there's a big old

00:43:46.120 a big old sergeant

00:43:47.600 who's about to give you

00:43:48.680 a thorough searching

00:43:49.740 and with him

00:43:50.920 he's got two female officers

00:43:52.340 as well

00:43:52.960 all you need to do

00:43:54.520 is say

00:43:55.020 i'm a woman and the policy says that that sergeant has to now direct a female officer

00:44:02.740 to search your bell end and give you an intimate search so what's happening is there is a

00:44:10.800 facilitation of sexual assault going on which is why the police are so up in arms that they don't

00:44:18.580 say because you read the document it says any questioning of this is transphobic and all

00:44:25.840 transphobia there must be there must be zero tolerance to transphobia why because of stephen

00:44:31.720 lawrence because of the mcpherson reports because if you don't buy the whole thing it means that

00:44:37.260 you're a racist bastard you know jew hating gay hating whatever and there's no place for you

00:44:44.060 in the police force

00:44:45.020 so it's

00:44:45.520 finally somebody's

00:44:46.380 nailed Constantine

00:44:47.240 so it's classic

00:44:49.460 classic

00:44:50.000 Trojan horse tactic

00:44:51.440 is what's going on

00:44:52.580 yeah

00:44:52.820 and next year

00:44:54.420 2020

00:44:54.900 is when we're

00:44:56.720 going to be

00:44:57.280 we are Fair Cop

00:44:58.340 we're going to be

00:44:58.780 challenging this

00:45:00.100 we're going to have

00:45:00.560 a word with the police

00:45:01.400 and say

00:45:01.820 look

00:45:02.340 hopefully

00:45:03.820 we've beaten you up once

00:45:05.080 you really don't want to

00:45:07.300 go to war with us again

00:45:08.720 can we have a

00:45:10.100 gentlemanly chat

00:45:11.440 with our lawyers

00:45:12.560 and your people

00:45:13.240 and let me explain to you how you've been ideologically captured

00:45:16.620 so that we don't have to have a big face-off at judicial review again.

00:45:20.840 Let's see if we can sort it out.

00:45:23.520 That's the plan. That's the plan.

00:45:24.820 The average copper working in the police force,

00:45:28.600 who are decent people, who just want to go into the police force

00:45:32.260 because they believe in it, they believe in law and order,

00:45:34.360 they want to help society,

00:45:36.400 I mean, they must be absolutely outraged by this.

00:45:39.120 Yeah, they're outraged. They're pissed off.

00:45:40.540 They can't believe it, but they have to do it

00:45:42.100 because their jobs are on the line,

00:45:43.620 because any form of dissent is evidence,

00:45:47.580 de facto evidence of transphobia.

00:45:49.860 And that's why they have the hashtag no debate.

00:45:53.960 Have you seen that on Twitter?

00:45:55.020 No.

00:45:55.220 No debate.

00:45:55.920 No debate.

00:45:56.320 Yeah, if you go on the LGBT police websites,

00:46:01.860 of which there are hundreds, Stonewall,

00:46:04.880 any of the trans rights activists,

00:46:07.020 they will often use the hashtag no debate.

00:46:09.560 So it will make a statement,

00:46:10.400 trans women are women hashtag no debate so the logic behind that is that if you debate it and

00:46:18.400 don't simply accept it you are a hateful transphobe and we will not in the same way that we

00:46:25.640 will not debate racists we will not debate hateful transphobes but of course a transphobe is somebody

00:46:34.000 who does not believe, who doesn't go along hook, line and sinker

00:46:39.680 with the I am what I say I am narrative.

00:46:42.980 Well, we had Rose of Dawn, the transsexual woman

00:46:46.100 who is a YouTuber on the show recently,

00:46:48.600 and one of the things she told us is that trans women like her

00:46:52.260 who say that biologically, despite her transition,

00:46:55.520 she's still male biologically, have been banned from Twitter

00:46:59.460 for saying that they themselves are biologically male.

00:47:03.400 Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. But there is no debate at all. You cannot budge an inch from the narrative, from the ideological narrative. Otherwise, regardless that you're a trans woman, you're a hateful trans woman and you're not a real trans woman. And no debate. You need deplatforming. We can't hear your voice.

00:47:25.300 the same with the people that have detransitioned we don't want to hear about detransitioners because

00:47:29.920 it challenges the narrative there is only one narrative you are born in the wrong body

00:47:35.840 you know that from an early age your lady brain accidentally grew a penis and it is now society's

00:47:42.600 responsibility for all of us to correct that through hormones surgery pronouns positive

00:47:50.720 reinforcement and hashtag no debate that's it and we're saying hashtag screw you is what we're saying

00:47:58.140 so you see with with that i mean i personally uh my opinion is that there is such a thing as

00:48:04.640 gender dysphoria and there are people who experience it but but and and there but there'll

00:48:09.240 be people who don't agree with that which is all fine i mean it's the lack of the ability to have

00:48:15.680 the conversation that scares me. And what you're talking about, we know about this from my interview

00:48:20.980 with Posey Parker, the big tech companies are enforcing this stuff, right? We had a video taken

00:48:25.800 down for hate speech and then eventually due to a public outcry was reinstated. But fundamentally,

00:48:31.320 the big tech companies are all terrified. But what you're talking about is the police. And I just want

00:48:35.960 to remind people what the police are. They're the arm of the state that is allowed to use violence

00:48:41.600 and imprison people, they are enforcing this ideology.

00:48:48.180 Yes, they are enforcing this ideology,

00:48:51.320 which is why it requires brave, outspoken people

00:48:56.260 to stand up and say, this can't happen.

00:49:00.720 It just cannot happen.

00:49:02.220 Somebody has got to stand up and stop the policy spiral.

00:49:06.120 And unfortunately, the only way to do that really

00:49:07.620 is through direct challenge and judicial review,

00:49:11.220 which is incredibly expensive.

00:49:13.240 Doing this, I've put at risk

00:49:15.100 around about £150,000 to £200,000 to do this.

00:49:18.560 That is outside the possibility

00:49:21.520 of the vast majority of people to do.

00:49:24.260 It's just that I've got a business.

00:49:26.980 You're fucking loaded.

00:49:28.740 I'm not.

00:49:31.200 I only call it asset rich and fucking cash strapped.

00:49:34.840 Well, you are now, aren't you?

00:49:36.080 Yes.

00:49:36.240 But, yeah, I mean, thankfully, we've had so much support.

00:49:41.840 We've got, I think, close on £60,000 in the Crowd Justice Fund.

00:49:47.340 I've got another £25,000 pledged in case we lose,

00:49:55.200 and it has to go up to the Supreme Court.

00:49:58.960 So people care.

00:50:00.940 People really, really care about this.

00:50:03.140 And they care because there are so many people who agree, including police officers, including government ministers, including lords.

00:50:13.140 And they don't say because their careers are on the line.

00:50:16.360 Now, again, talking about Douglas Murray again, he talks about how over most people there is a, what do you call it, a wobbly pyramid.

00:50:25.220 Yes.

00:50:25.600 A very wobbly hierarchy pyramid.

00:50:28.460 mid. And if you're scared of that falling down and crushing you, that's very serious because

00:50:34.120 you lose your job, you lose your house, you lose your security. It's terrifying. And so those of

00:50:40.540 us who are in a position to stand up and say, hashtag screw you, there is a disproportionate

00:50:48.880 responsibility on us to do that. And that's why you asked me initially why I'm here. It's because

00:50:56.240 I feel a sense of that disproportionate responsibility. And I'm just not the kind of person to lay

00:51:04.000 down and take it from some two-bit police officer and a two-bit force like Humberbeat

00:51:11.000 and operating on two-bit guidelines issued by the College of Police. That's just it.

00:51:17.640 And Harry, right, so this is where we are. We're at the end of 2019. If we don't stop

00:51:24.540 And if we don't stand up, what do you think will happen?

00:51:27.060 I know predictions are always, you know, some pointless,

00:51:31.020 but what do you think will be the end game?

00:51:33.700 What do you think?

00:51:34.480 We'll all be in a position where we have a gendered theocracy,

00:51:37.580 where expressing disbelief in gender ideology will be exactly the same

00:51:42.420 as it is in a place like Iran, in the Middle Ages, Dark Ages, whatever,

00:51:49.120 where if you don't believe in the unsubstantiated,

00:51:54.360 unscientific, pre-enlightenment claims,

00:51:58.780 then you're guilty of a crime.

00:52:01.780 And I think your access to public life will be shut down.

00:52:05.820 I mean, that's already here with this, you know,

00:52:07.220 with the enhanced DBS check thing is super, super serious,

00:52:13.460 we would say.

00:52:15.080 You know, you've said something on Twitter

00:52:18.500 that somebody without any evidence

00:52:21.740 has decided to report,

00:52:23.520 you end up with a hate incident

00:52:24.660 against your name,

00:52:25.600 which can be then revealed

00:52:27.200 on an enhanced DBS check,

00:52:28.740 which means your career

00:52:29.900 is going nowhere.

00:52:31.860 That's the case anyway.

00:52:33.920 Yeah, I find that terrifying.

00:52:37.500 Whichever side of the debate you're on,

00:52:40.040 if you dance with the devil

00:52:42.240 because you happen to like the tune today,

00:52:44.320 you need to be very, very careful

00:52:45.540 because that tune's going to change

00:52:46.940 and you're going to be the one

00:52:48.420 who's going to end up in the wrong clink at some point.

00:52:52.340 And that's why, regardless, all right-minded people, I think,

00:52:56.140 need to support We Are Fair Cop because we're for the rule of law,

00:53:00.740 we're for the rule of debate, we are post-enlightenment,

00:53:06.140 we believe in science, we believe in biology,

00:53:09.040 we're quite happy to debate people with crazy existential post-modern views.

00:53:14.900 We don't hate somebody that thinks a trans woman is a woman.

00:53:17.920 I'd happily sit down and have that debate with them and go out and have a pint with them afterwards.

00:53:23.780 It's not about hate. It's about having the ability to talk about really difficult issues, actually.

00:53:32.100 And we should be able to do that without the police trampling all over our Article 10 rights

00:53:38.440 and telling us that we can't debate in things which they already concede are entirely legal to debate about.

00:53:45.880 And also, we have this entire issue that Schedule 6, I think it is, or Schedule 1 of the Code of Ethics says that the police must not be political, nor can they give the impression of being political.

00:54:04.940 now when a police officer takes a particular side during a particular debate which is heading to

00:54:14.460 you know through parliament that is an entire that is an utter breach of their code of ethics

00:54:20.980 they're not allowed to do that you cannot you cannot there's only one thing a police officer

00:54:25.520 should do when um when the debate gets political and that is to take a massive whopping public

00:54:33.540 step back and they're not doing it they've taken aside there are police forces actively promoting

00:54:39.880 reform to the gra actively actively saying that the old gra is outdated and cruel and needs reform

00:54:47.700 they are acting as though reform to the gra has already happened in other words they are treating

00:54:54.480 gender identity as being a protected characteristic in law and it isn't it isn't and that's dangerous

00:55:03.000 when the police start acting as a result of crazy ideological policy spiral we need to have a sense

00:55:10.980 check um and go okay let's go back to first principles the principle of law principles of

00:55:16.420 free speech that in this country under common law we are allowed to do and say anything unless the

00:55:22.040 government specifically tells us that we can't you know we are a free people we're not a bound people

00:55:26.920 and i think we need to get back to these first principles and just say hold on a minute this

00:55:31.820 st happening under my watch and we've got groups all over the country now springing up

00:55:36.340 we've got university challenged professor kathleen stock and rachel ire who are challenging

00:55:44.700 the no platforming at universities we're about to launch in the new year fair higher education

00:55:50.120 with dr louise moody and the thing that i really want to get into is the i want to get into stone

00:55:55.580 wall and um you know stonewall can do what they like but i want to break the capture of stonewall

00:56:00.860 into the important institutions which govern all our lives,

00:56:05.840 particularly HR departments, because I look around.

00:56:10.440 I was at a restaurant a few weeks ago, a very busy restaurant.

00:56:15.160 I look around and said, you know, I was there with Posey Parker, actually.

00:56:18.020 I said, how many people do you reckon there are in this room

00:56:20.800 who've had a knock on the door from the Thorpe Police?

00:56:24.420 And we said probably two, maybe three.

00:56:27.000 There was at least two of us because Posey and I are there.

00:56:28.920 maybe three

00:56:31.180 I mean that's a problematic dinner

00:56:32.620 isn't it

00:56:33.200 you and Posey

00:56:34.100 absolutely

00:56:34.540 and then I said

00:56:35.440 okay so how many people

00:56:36.440 do you think there are

00:56:36.920 in this restaurant

00:56:37.440 who are shit scared

00:56:38.680 of their HR departments

00:56:40.680 and we reckon

00:56:41.980 80-90% of people

00:56:43.340 89% of people

00:56:45.240 are shit scared

00:56:46.120 of their HR departments

00:56:47.820 because when it's

00:56:48.560 transgender day

00:56:49.200 if you don't wear

00:56:50.280 the pink, blue

00:56:51.380 and white lanyard

00:56:52.320 to show your support

00:56:54.020 you're marked out

00:56:55.080 if you don't wear

00:56:56.060 your rainbow laces

00:56:56.980 you're marked out

00:56:58.300 If you don't go along entirely with this absolute nonsense, which has no basis in law whatsoever, you're marked out.

00:57:08.140 So that's where we're heading.

00:57:09.520 We've got some big fights lined up.

00:57:12.360 And before we ask you our last question, how can people help with what you're doing at We Are Fair Cop?

00:57:17.900 We Are Fair Cop, you need to follow us on Twitter, which is at WeAreFairCop.

00:57:22.440 Go onto the website, which is faircop.org.

00:57:28.300 You can donate. Follow us. Write to us. Eventually, we'll have things like mugs and T-shirts.

00:57:35.940 We haven't got them at the minute. But yeah, just get in touch. Follow us on Twitter.

00:57:40.740 Brilliant stuff. And the last question that we always ask, and we always close our interviews,

00:57:45.120 Constance, take it away.

00:57:46.520 What's the one thing no one's talking about that we ought to be talking about?

00:57:49.820 I've alluded to it already, but it's how shit the rainbow is. How absolutely shit the rainbow is.

00:57:55.500 The rainbow, that rainbow symbol, which used to be a great symbol of hope for lesbians, gays and bi people.

00:58:04.720 I now equate it to, I think it's so corrupted that I now equate it to a swastika.

00:58:15.100 Well, that shouldn't upset anyone.

00:58:17.820 That's not going to trigger people.

00:58:20.160 To me, it has the same visceral reaction because it speaks of an ideology

00:58:27.620 which I think is insidious, dangerous, and which is just sweeping through

00:58:35.540 organisations like a white centre.

00:58:37.440 Breathe, breathe, breathe, breathe.

00:58:38.300 If that sound you can hear, is the internet going into fucking meltdown?

00:58:43.920 People ting on their keyboards tweeting.

00:58:46.480 Right, and on that note, people can't find you on Twitter, Harry,

00:58:49.440 but can they find you

00:58:50.220 I can see why

00:58:50.960 can they find you

00:58:52.740 on Facebook

00:58:53.620 Instagram

00:58:54.960 yeah they can find

00:58:56.020 if they look for

00:58:57.040 Harry Miller

00:58:57.720 they'll find

00:58:58.140 Fair Cop

00:58:59.300 find us on Twitter

00:59:01.160 Twitter's the best place

00:59:02.120 really

00:59:02.440 oh Fair Cop on Twitter

00:59:03.460 is it at Fair Cop

00:59:04.460 I take it

00:59:04.920 on Twitter it's

00:59:05.900 we are Fair Cop

00:59:06.840 perfect stuff

00:59:07.640 alright and don't send

00:59:08.420 him any rainbows

00:59:09.120 alright guys

00:59:11.140 thanks very much

00:59:12.040 for watching

00:59:12.460 we'll see you in a week

00:59:13.180 from now with a

00:59:14.300 possibly slightly less

00:59:15.400 triggering episode

00:59:16.000 who knows

00:59:16.540 it could be more triggering

00:59:17.380 see you in a week

00:59:18.100 absolutely take care

00:59:19.500 Bye-bye.

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00:59:41.220 is coming to Toronto.

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00:59:55.020 hit is here the neil diamond musical a beautiful noise april 28th through june 7th 2026 the

01:00:01.920 princess of wales theater get tickets at mirvish.com

TRIGGERnometry - January 12, 2020

The Police Told Me to ＂Check My Thinking for a Tweet＂

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