In this episode, we talk to Iranian-American essayist, writer, activist, and political commentator, Elika Khatib, who shares her story of growing up in Iran during the 1979 Islamic Revolution, and how she and her family were caught up in the chaos that was the Islamic Revolution.
00:00:53.980Your commentary is very interesting, actually.
00:00:56.020We wanted to have you on, first of all, to tell us your story, because that's very interesting.
00:01:00.220And then to talk about the Middle East, Iran, and so on.
00:01:02.940So who are you and what's been your and your family's journey?
00:01:07.140My family, like a lot of Iranians here in the diaspora, left around or after the revolution, or should I say the coup that happened in 1979 in Iran.
00:01:18.220I think most people are somewhat familiar with the story.
00:01:24.320So you had, it was under the Shah's regime.
00:01:27.920The Shah was the king of Iran at that time.
00:01:30.200And then there was, well, actually, this is very, very relevant to the conversation, because there was a revolution, an uprising, I guess, that overthrew the Shah.
00:01:39.700But what people don't understand is that a lot of the same factions and the same elements that were involved in that movement are the same elements that are involved in what's going on now in the Middle East.
00:01:50.420So, and we can get into this, I don't want to get distracted, so we'll put a pause and come back to it.
00:01:55.880But it was the movement of the, it was that jihadist-Marxist alliance, the Islamist-leftist alliance, where these ideologies of communism were being taught in the universities in Iran.
00:02:13.160And they kind of had this, I guess, what the alliance is based on is this idea that the jihadists are this kind of reactionary force that will come in and dismantle, you know, Western imperialism and capitalism, you know, so that the leftists align with them in that capacity.
00:02:30.920So, basically, the same thing happened there.
00:02:33.820The Islamists come in, and, of course, the communists, the Tudai Party, are the first people they kill.
00:02:39.220So, that's how the Islamic revolution came to Iran in 1979.
00:02:51.100So, under the Shah's regime, the Shah's regime was sending out students, like the top university students, to be educated abroad, because it was like part of this kind of progressive movement, right?
00:03:01.640He was getting international studies and things like that to come back to Iran.
00:03:06.900So, then the revolution happened in 1979, and he, I guess, he had to drop out of Oxford, because they cut off his bursary, because that was a change of government.
00:03:19.100My mom and my mom's entire family were still in Iran at that time.
00:03:23.920So, they kind of experienced firsthand everything that happened after the revolution.
00:03:28.400My mom told me, you know, they would, like, throw acid in women's faces if they weren't wearing the hijab.
00:03:35.620So, pretty much immediately after the Islamic Republic came to Iran, after Khomeini came into power, they started enforcing, you know, mandatory hijab, mandatory dress codes, and things like that.
00:03:47.700So, there was a lot of, there were a lot of dissidents, there was a lot of uprising against this new regime that people were like, oh, actually, we made a mistake, we don't want this.
00:03:59.980And so, then there was, like, a huge crushing of dissent.
00:04:03.540So, a lot of people were executed, a lot of my family members.
00:05:50.860It was like overnight, you went back a few centuries, basically.
00:05:54.180And I think, you know, what a lot of people say was that it was, in fact, becoming so progressive that it was almost like a backlash or jihad-lash, you know, to the amount of progress that the Shah was implementing.
00:06:07.380Like, he had all of these reforms, like the white reform, where he was kind of rapidly progressing to the extent that he was putting women in high positions in government.
00:06:17.300You know, it was, like, really developing.
00:06:19.540And so that, you know, that was an affront to the kind of burgeoning Islamist movement that was in Iran and the Middle East at the time, where they were just like, oh, this is Western imperialism.
00:06:29.880Because, you know, every semblance of progress or modernity or equality is Western imperialism to these people, right?
00:06:38.260So it was like, we need to get rid of this Western imperialism.
00:06:42.140We need to get rid of the cinemas and the bars and the equality for women and the right to exist and the right to, you know, wear what you want and be in government.
00:06:50.080And we just need to replace it with this oppressive regime to oppose Western imperialism.
00:06:55.940Why didn't the Shah crack down on this?
00:07:36.960It's like this concept of one collective Muslim body.
00:07:41.040So, you know, we as Muslims are all kind of moving together at the same time.
00:07:44.880So when the Shah's in Egypt or Morocco, wherever he is, the Ummah needs to rise up and have him removed.
00:07:51.140So because it was causing so much problems wherever the Shah would go, like the Ummah was rising up in Egypt and where he was being housed and he would have to go.
00:07:59.500So then he was going to America, to Morocco, Egypt, all different places.
00:08:02.620Anyway, so what ends up happening is that he needs to do this surgery on his spleen.
00:08:07.900And he has the best doctor in America do this surgery, the best spleen surgeon in America.
00:08:14.500Now, at this time, let's rewind and talk about the fact that Jimmy Carter, who was the president of the USA at that time, betrayed the Shah, who was a close ally to Carter.
00:08:26.580And he betrayed the Shah by kind of conspiring with Khomeini to bring this revolution to Iran and to overthrow the Shah.
00:08:38.080And this was revealed in declassified documents that were produced in 2016 that revealed this correspondence between Khomeini and the White House,
00:08:47.660where Carter agreed to basically suppress the Iranian army and to help disseminate this propaganda against the Shah that ultimately fomented this revolution.
00:08:57.340So just keeping that in mind, because, and I don't know how much of a conspiracy theorist we want to be about this, I think it's just open to consider.
00:09:05.200The Americans really didn't want the Shah to survive and ultimately potentially come back to Iran.
00:09:11.740So he undergoes this spleen surgery by apparently the best spleen surgeon in the USA at the time.
00:09:18.720But the surgeon doesn't drain his spleen.
00:09:21.500And then when you do all of these documentaries, when you see all these documentaries, you have these surgeons from everywhere, from Mexico, here, there, and the other.
00:09:29.520They're like, there's no such thing as not draining the spleen after a surgery.
00:11:40.300OK, so the morality police in Persia and Gashda Ershad, they are the police that are specifically employed for ensuring that women comply with the dress code.
00:11:54.100There was a period of time that the media was reporting that the morality police had disbanded, which was not true.
00:12:00.380They had moved to kind of surveillance instead of patrol.
00:12:04.900But I guess they're back on patrol again.
00:12:07.160So in response to being accosted by the morality police, she decides to take off not just her hijab, but all of her clothes.
00:12:16.380She decides to undress and just roam around in the streets in her underwear, basically, which is, you know, a lot of people would say is like a suicidal mission.
00:12:26.620But she did this in defiance of the regime.
00:12:30.980And what would happen to a woman like that who chose to protest, not only to protest, but protest in the most explicit manner?
00:12:40.080So what they're basically already saying is that she's been forcibly institutionalized.
00:12:46.400And the amnesty actually reported today that they are aware of the tactics that the regime has used when they forcibly institutionalized women for defiance of the hijab laws,
00:12:59.300which can include like electric shocks, forced drugs, intravenous drugs, just stuff that you would think of when you think of like the early 1900s of, you know,
00:13:14.180what they used to do to women for hysteria, which involved a lot of the same things like electroconvulsive therapy, ice baths, lobotomies, even in the extreme cases.
00:13:27.180And so there's a lot of concern right now about, you know, what the regime is doing in response to that.
00:13:33.560Alec, let's talk a little bit about what the regime wants, because this is something that people in the West just I don't think people in the West are capable of understanding the mindset of passionately, deeply religious people, which is who runs Iran.
00:13:53.560Why are they doing many of the things they're doing?
00:13:56.180You know, I think I think you bring up a good point, because what I often find about what people in the West seek to do is that they try to rationalize fundamentalism.
00:14:05.280So they come up with these stories like, well, you know, I guess if, you know, America did this, then obviously they would do that.
00:14:12.080They think that there's like a cause and effect to fundamentalism.
00:14:15.900They don't understand that fundamentalism is just insanity.
00:31:58.460I think, I think with that example though, there's a degree of, um, innocence.
00:32:04.740So, um, I don't even want to use the word innocence, but there's a degree of just like, you know, making a snap judgment and then being nothing else behind that.
00:32:12.700I think that there's more to it where it's like orchestrated in a way that you want this kid to look like the bad guy.
00:32:21.420And there's extensive planning and positioning and strategizing so that when the teacher comes out, they're like, oh, you're the bad guy.
00:32:36.760Um, the question I wanted to ask you, and it's something that we've had many, many people want to talk about this, but I've never asked this directly as this.
00:32:55.400And so a lot of people just, you know, say, oh, jihad just means like a struggle against oppression.
00:33:01.280And, you know, regardless of what the kind of etymology of the word is or the root, um, what it has come to mean, if for most people's understanding,
00:33:14.580is it's a, uh, vying for power of Islamists, um, over a region, essentially, in order to create a state under Sharia law.
00:33:51.700I mean, if they're going to return to the prior caliphate, if that's the model that they're going to use, then I'm guessing the Middle East and North Africa.
00:34:00.560Um, I don't know what their aspirations are beyond that.
00:34:04.060Um, and why do, um, the Iranian jihadis hate America?
00:34:20.260I mean, you could say that, you could say that, but I think in general, you have to remember that they really hate American values, right?
00:34:32.020They hate American values because they're almost diametrically opposed to the values that they have, which are really, really very, like, I don't even want to say conservative because it's more than conservative, right?
00:34:47.500And so this idea of liberalism in any form, and I know this word liberalism has come to be contentious when we talk about it in America, but to them, you know, it literally just means, like, dressing how you want or whatever.
00:35:02.500Um, the values that America has, it's just really irksome to them.
00:35:09.980Um, also the fact that you have to remember that America and, you know, the Western world in general is constantly responding to this regime, this regime's acts of brutality and violence.
00:35:21.280And, and when you're that, when you're that bully, right, there's something about when you have that mindset where you, like, no matter what you do, when someone responds to you, you think they're the bad guy, right?
00:35:32.680Like, if you try to, like, go after someone and they defend themselves and hurt you, you're like, oh my gosh, I've been attacked.
00:35:39.540It's actually just the way they think.
00:35:41.460And they're not even capable of accountability or self-reflection.
00:35:44.900So, like, when they create Hezbollah, for example, and Hezbollah, like, commits all of these suicide bombings and kills, like, CIA agents and stuff, and then America does something like put sanctions on the regime, something like that, right?
00:35:57.300They're like, oh my gosh, I've been targeted by the big, bad American wolf.
00:36:00.800It's like, but you, you know you did something, right?
00:36:02.800You know you did something first that was really bad, and then you got a reaction, right?
00:36:10.640They're like, oh, I'm being oppressed by Western imperialism.
00:36:12.860I mean, in fairness to them, with sanctions, like, my mother's Venezuelan, when sanctions were brought in Venezuela, it's never going to be the ruling class that suffer.
00:36:21.100It's always going to be the innocent civilians who've got no choice in the matter of the fact they're ruled by these nutbags.
00:36:26.380Well, you know, that would, that would be true if it wasn't for the case, if it wasn't for the fact that the regime is extorting the people anyway by taking, you know, their money and everything they have.
00:36:38.260So, like, the supreme leaders, like, his net worth is like, I don't know, like, 100 billion or 200, like, just ridiculous amounts of money that he's extorting from the Iranian people.
00:36:48.140So, that would be a good argument if it was like a but-for argument, but-for sanctions, Iran would be flourishing, wouldn't be, realistically.
00:36:56.580No, no, it wouldn't be, and it never is.
00:36:58.760The thing that I find really interesting about your story when you speak about it is you talk about the cyber attacks from Iran.
00:37:05.180Now, this is something that I've never really heard of.
00:37:11.960So, the regime, so, first of all, let's remember that the regime has a long history of assassinating dissidents through, from the 80s through to the 90s in France, in Germany.
00:37:27.020And I guess what happened after a period of time, the international community was like, okay, we're going to do arrest warrants international, all of this stuff.
00:37:37.000So, what they do now is they have more like a phased attack against dissidents, and the first phase of the attack starts with character assassination.
00:37:44.660So, they start by saying, like, you know, this person is a Mossad agent, a regime spy, a this, that, or the other terrorist, which is what they said about Jamshid Sharmad, who they just executed last week.
00:37:57.360And then they move into the phase of attempted kidnap or assassination, and the whole point is that once they cause you this harm, they've already laid that foundation of character assassination, so essentially no one will care, right?
00:38:11.080And so, this is exactly what happened.
00:38:12.460So, after they executed him and they told the world, you know, you see the New York Times and all of this media posts like, oh, this man was assassinated on terrorism charges.
00:38:23.060And it's like, where are you getting this information from?
00:38:28.480Like, did you actually review the fact that he was convicted alongside Biden and Trump and every American official of terrorism and sentenced to death?
00:38:42.160And so, then it's like, then you're like, oh, well, I mean, I guess it doesn't matter if he was a terrorist, right?
00:38:48.160And that's how they whitewash their crimes and get people to look the other way, because they're like, oh, well, I guess it's not really that bad if this person was a Mossad agent or a CIA or a regime spy or a terrorist.
00:39:20.240That one was funny because first they said that, first they said that I was hiding the fact that I was Simon Le Bon's daughter because he was a raging Zionist.
00:39:28.960And I didn't want everyone to know that I was the daughter of a Zionist.
00:39:31.680Well, the lead singer of Duran Duran, is he a raging Zionist?
00:40:52.140We were actually just talking about this where I had, like, put up this post about Jamshid Sharmad where I was like, there was no evidence of this claim that he was a terrorist.
00:41:00.420And then someone, like, the journalist of Press TV, which is the regime's media, comments in my thing, like, no evidence laughing face.
00:42:03.180So it just shows that, you know, there's real power to these threats and to these accusations.
00:42:08.320There's real, real, I mean, this is extremely, extremely dangerous work.
00:42:14.800It's almost like there's, like, a double edge to it where it's, like, the more you speak about it, the more you become known, the more, you know, of a target you become.
00:42:25.080But then also at the same time, the more you become known, the more it's for them a little bit of a problem if they try to go after you because they also don't want, you know, the international community realizing that they're terrorists.
00:42:39.020You mentioned before we started that talking about this has caused a lot of your British friends to react to it.
00:42:48.160So, I mean, you guys are from London, so you know that, you know, being pro-Palestine is kind of part of the culture and you really can't stray from that or you're just evil and horrible.
00:43:01.420So after October 7th, for me, there was, you know, an obvious overlap because I've been talking about Iran for the past year since the revolution in Iran following the killing of Massa Jina Amini.
00:43:13.640And so after October 7th happened, I'm like, okay, well, you know, these are proxies of the regime.
00:43:21.620These are the same terrorists that have killed my family and my people.
00:43:25.600Obviously, I'm not going to stand with this.
00:43:28.820But my friends took a very different, a very different approach.
00:43:34.720They were very supportive of October 7th.
00:43:39.280I mean, just obviously, right, like on October 7th, they posted like Palestine flags and just stuff that was, you know, obvious.
00:43:48.300And so the thing is, for me, it's like there's, there's, that's obviously like very dark for me because you're supporting the terrorists that, you know, are an extension of the same terrorists that have killed my family.
00:44:00.800For you, there's no meaning behind it, right?
00:44:02.860And so as it just developed that, you know, they would post stuff in defense of Hamas, they would repost like Gabor Marte quotes that would be like, oh, Hamas hasn't even done 1% of what is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:44:15.740And I'm like, this is, this doesn't even mean anything to you.
00:44:20.920You don't even know what you're talking about.
00:44:23.100This is like, they weren't even willing to hear me, despite me having like an obvious connection to this conflict, you know.
00:44:32.520It was just a decision that there's something wrong with you.
00:44:36.900You must be a raging Zionist if you don't support Hamas.
00:44:40.560And we just don't want to know you anymore.
00:44:42.600And Elika, one of the things that we've touched briefly on, but actually now that I'm putting together several of the things that you're saying.
00:44:51.980So this is a religious fundamentalist ideology that believes that in order to achieve the prophecy, it has to get rid of Israel.
00:45:02.140And these guys are trying to develop nuclear weapons.
00:45:46.920Because I'm guessing that from Israel's perspective, if what you're saying is accurate and if it's understood to be like that in Israel, I just don't see why they haven't bombed the shit out of Iran's nuclear facilities already.
00:46:11.120Yeah, but then you know what would happen to you?
00:46:12.720You'd be on trial and get convicted of murder because this poor innocent man who just wanted to be your friend and has never done anything wrong because they're just so good and kind and you're just so evil that you decided that you wanted to end his life because you're mean and jealous and miserable.
00:46:32.920Preemptive action is very difficult to justify and at least because sometimes it is unjustified.
00:46:38.080Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction.
00:46:39.980I think that's part of the skepticism in the West about this stuff.
00:46:43.420But I think another thing that I was going to say to answer your question is that Israel is very much restrained by the international community, especially America.
00:46:52.500And because America has this strategy of failed strategy of appeasement for the past 45 years, it's very much just like anti any type of escalation.
00:47:02.560And so even if Israel wanted to do its escalation a little bit further, it would be punished by America.
00:47:08.240And if it's punished by America, that's a problem.
00:47:10.500So it has to really operate within the confines of what America decides is appropriate.
00:47:15.420And that's why another reason why this election is going to be very.
00:47:19.200Well, by the time this goes out, the elections happen.
00:47:23.740So either we're all dead or we're, I don't know.