TRIGGERnometry - The Real Story of Margaret Thatcher

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00:00:30.000 Getting ready for a game means being ready for anything, like packing a spare stick.

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00:00:55.560 At one point, he took the phone from his ear and he just allowed the rest of the camera to hear.

00:01:06.200 She was ranting and he goes, isn't she magnificent?

00:01:11.960 But I think it's fair to say that she is divisive.

00:01:15.380 I think that's fair to say, yes.

00:01:18.560 The biggest myth was that she was somehow America's poodle, Ronald Reagan's poodle.

00:01:24.700 But they had some quite heated disagreements.

00:01:28.000 The flirtatiousness, the fact that she used that very effectively, her feminine charms.

00:01:34.020 How much truth is there to that?

00:01:35.600 Oh, a huge amount.

00:01:36.980 Croissant Mitterrand, the president of France at the time,

00:01:39.240 he had a huge respect for her and he described her as having the eyes of Caligula and the mouth of Marilyn Monroe.

00:01:46.600 Where do you think she might have stood on the big issues of today?

00:01:49.820 Mass immigration, the impact of illegal immigration.

00:01:52.840 She would have probably done something far more hardline than any British government has done.

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00:02:18.320 Ian Dale, welcome back to Trigonometry.

00:02:20.860 Good to be back.

00:02:21.600 It's good to have you on.

00:02:22.520 We're going to talk about a very specific thing with you today, which is your book and Margaret Thatcher.

00:02:27.760 Really great to have you back on the show.

00:02:29.540 Enjoyed reading the book.

00:02:30.580 It's kind of a quick access to some of the greatest hits, if you like,

00:02:35.600 for some people of our generation who didn't grow up under during that time.

00:02:39.980 But I actually remember a long time ago, you and I had lunch.

00:02:43.120 And I remember you telling me that you were a fan of Margaret Thatcher.

00:02:46.460 And I, at that point, basically spent five years on the comedy circuit,

00:02:50.940 listening to comedians go on stage and use Thatcher as a punchline.

00:02:54.420 And you were the first person I came across who actually had an explanation of why...

00:02:59.840 You lived a sheltered life.

00:03:00.980 I did.

00:03:01.600 I did.

00:03:02.140 Well, as most comedians do, and most people in the creative arts in general do, actually.

00:03:06.780 And many people beyond that.

00:03:08.440 And you kind of went, well, actually, she saved this country.

00:03:11.360 That's basically what you said.

00:03:13.140 Can you just tell people, you know, about that for a start?

00:03:15.920 Well, the reason I wrote the book was exactly to aim it at people like you.

00:03:21.540 Because you have to be, I think, 56 to have voted for Margaret Thatcher.

00:03:26.060 And you've got two or three generations that have grown up since she left office in 1990,

00:03:31.840 and 35 years ago.

00:03:33.820 And yet, her influence is still all pervasive.

00:03:36.660 Because the left blamed Thatcher for everything that's going wrong in this country now,

00:03:41.040 even though she left office 35 years ago.

00:03:43.340 And it's as if, if I was writing this book in 1925, as opposed to 2025,

00:03:49.320 I'd be writing about Disraeli.

00:03:51.380 And you think, well, did Disraeli really have any influence on what happened in the 1920s?

00:03:56.000 Not really, no.

00:03:58.120 And it also coincided, the publisher approached me and said, would I like to do it?

00:04:02.180 I first said no, because I thought, well, how can you beat Charles Moore's three-volume biography,

00:04:08.260 which I think is probably one of the best political biographies ever written?

00:04:12.160 But once I got it into my head that I wanted to aim it as a younger audience,

00:04:17.820 and I've got a personal trainer after all my health things, and he was 25 at the time.

00:04:26.460 And when he found out what I did for a living, his first question was,

00:04:29.760 now, I've heard of Margaret Thatcher, but who was she?

00:04:32.560 What did she do?

00:04:33.540 And I was thinking, oh, my God.

00:04:35.060 So it's also aimed at people like him.

00:04:38.580 So what did she do?

00:04:39.380 Well, huge amounts.

00:04:41.480 You have to think back to what Britain was like at the end of the 1970s.

00:04:46.040 We were really the sick man of Europe in terms of our economy.

00:04:50.620 The trade unions controlled everything.

00:04:52.940 They literally controlled Labour's economic policy.

00:04:55.940 And they had a very moderate leader, Jim Callaghan, who was prime minister,

00:04:59.620 a really sort of feisty chancellor, Dennis Healey.

00:05:02.300 But the trade unions would be in number 10 virtually every week, saying to the prime minister,

00:05:08.620 well, this is what you've got to do.

00:05:10.240 And he had no choice.

00:05:12.460 There was no democracy in the trade unions at the time.

00:05:15.640 Strikes were called on shows of hands at meetings outside factories.

00:05:20.020 And of course, those who wanted to strike would put two hands up, not one.

00:05:23.720 And the hard left were controlling a lot of the trade unions.

00:05:29.480 And we were just sort of strikes were commonplace.

00:05:34.900 And I was how old was I?

00:05:36.160 I was about 14 or 15 in the late 70s.

00:05:40.100 And I just remember thinking once, well, there must be something better than this,

00:05:44.220 a better way to run the country.

00:05:46.560 And I remember seeing Margaret Thatcher make a speech in, I think it was 1978.

00:05:51.660 And I thought, well, she's not only diagnosed the problem, she's come up with some solutions.

00:05:57.120 And so she introduced various policies, trade unions reform,

00:06:03.080 which everyone thought when she first got into power,

00:06:05.080 there'd be a sort of big bang of trade union reforms.

00:06:07.760 But she knew that that wouldn't work.

00:06:09.440 That would just create confrontation.

00:06:10.960 So she introduced a series of trade union acts over the 1980s.

00:06:16.220 I think there were four of them.

00:06:18.100 And it was very, very sort of slowly, slowly, catchy monkey.

00:06:21.020 You had the closed shop where you couldn't be employed by a lot of the public sector industries,

00:06:27.940 or even private sector, actually, unless you were a member of the union.

00:06:31.980 I mean, we look at that now and think, well, how could that have been allowed to happen?

00:06:37.180 You had secondary picketing.

00:06:38.640 People would go and picket sort of companies that had nothing to do with their own strike.

00:06:45.200 You had lots of violence on the picket lines.

00:06:48.000 There was no democracy at all.

00:06:49.480 Trade union leaders weren't elected by their members.

00:06:52.400 So she appointed a ruddy-faced Suffolk farmer to be employment secretary in 1979, Jim Pryor.

00:06:58.840 And he was a real sort of wet, very consensual man who did not seek conflict with the unions,

00:07:06.120 but it introduced a trade union act that would sort of ameliorate some of the things that were going on.

00:07:13.240 And over the course of the 1980s, all of these things were dealt with.

00:07:17.620 And the reason the miners' strike happened when it did in 1984 was because Arthur Scargill, the miners' leader,

00:07:26.440 a very hard-left firebrand leader, still alive, I think he's in his 90s now,

00:07:32.140 he knew that if he didn't have a strike within a few months in 1984,

00:07:37.680 the new trade union act would come in, which would mean that he'd have to have a democratic ballot.

00:07:42.740 And there had been a dispute with the miners in 1981 over a pay claim,

00:07:50.160 and the government just caved in, deliberately, because they knew they weren't ready for a coal strike.

00:07:55.980 Because, again, you have to think back to that time, British industry couldn't function without coal supplies.

00:08:02.760 So Nigel Lawson, when he became energy secretary in 1981,

00:08:05.980 one of his main priorities was to build up coal stock so if there was a strike, the country could survive.

00:08:14.020 So in March 1984, Scargill called a strike with no ballot,

00:08:21.200 and that proved to be his undoing in the end because it split the miners.

00:08:26.380 So there were some groups of miners who thought they should have had a national ballot,

00:08:30.740 and they kept working.

00:08:33.300 And that almost made the dispute worse because you had miner against miner.

00:08:38.600 And Margaret Thatcher supported the working miners.

00:08:43.620 She effectively encouraged businessmen to channel money to them,

00:08:51.780 to support them in a way to foment this split,

00:08:55.580 because if any organisation splits, it becomes weaker.

00:08:58.860 And the strike lasted a year, and it was a strike that the government had to win,

00:09:04.180 and there were some pretty awful, violent scenes on picket lines.

00:09:07.380 But she had to prevail, and she did.

00:09:10.120 And essentially, the trade union movement, almost at a stroke, was weakened.

00:09:15.220 And if you look at the number of strike figures over the 1980s,

00:09:18.880 you see some 1984, it goes up like that, straight down, and then it was flat,

00:09:23.560 almost to the present day.

00:09:25.460 Now, I think a lot of people thought, well, we've got rid of strikes now.

00:09:28.340 They won't happen again.

00:09:29.540 In the last few years, I think they're coming back.

00:09:33.160 And one of the conclusions I've drawn is that all politics and all economics are cyclical.

00:09:39.340 Every 30 or 40 years, we go back to where we were.

00:09:43.820 We thought after 1992 that there'd never be a Labour government again.

00:09:48.120 They'd lost four elections.

00:09:50.440 Well, there was.

00:09:51.340 We thought there'd never be a left-wing leader of the Labour Party again after Michael Foote.

00:09:55.080 Well, there was.

00:09:55.780 We thought inflation had been conquered.

00:09:59.040 Well, it hasn't been, as we've seen in the last few years.

00:10:01.840 So it's very interesting.

00:10:02.720 The older you get, the more you see history starting to repeat itself.

00:10:07.200 Well, I'm so glad you made that point, because I think, actually,

00:10:09.620 one of the reasons that the publishers might have approached you to write a book about Thatcher

00:10:13.400 is that her name is becoming repeated again.

00:10:17.320 And I think partly it's because people are quite desperate for things to change in a fairly radical way.

00:10:25.000 And a lot of people, contrary to what you've just said, they see her as someone who came in and destroyed everything and faced down everybody and broke through.

00:10:33.080 But I also, and this is what I was going to ask you about, I hear a lot of quite reasonable, sensible people, particularly sort of on the centre-right,

00:10:41.920 who would have been fans of Thatcher back then, who are saying she was a great conservative prime minister, but she is not remotely what we need now.

00:10:51.800 Do you know what they're talking about?

00:10:53.120 Do you know what they mean?

00:10:54.680 Do you agree with them?

00:10:55.280 To an extent, because although, I mean, I think I'm regarded as somebody who is one of the keepers of the Thatcher flame.

00:11:02.320 I think she was the greatest prime minister of the 20th century outside wartime.

00:11:07.400 She did rescue our country, I believe.

00:11:10.040 I think we were on a very steep decline in the 1970s.

00:11:13.880 In a sense, there are parallels to be drawn to today.

00:11:17.240 But you can't just lift 1980s Thatcherism and implement it in 2025.

00:11:23.040 There are things that, and believe it or not, there are things that she got wrong.

00:11:28.220 I mean, I can't believe I just said that.

00:11:31.080 There were.

00:11:32.100 I mean, 11 and a half years, you're going to make some mistakes, and she certainly did.

00:11:36.400 I mean, we can talk about that if you want.

00:11:39.320 But the basic principles of Thatcherism, sound money, freedom of the individual, freedom of speech, encouraging entrepreneurialism,

00:11:49.600 I mean, all of those things are applicable to our society and our economy today.

00:11:54.680 So there are lessons to be learned.

00:11:56.440 But anyone who just says, oh, if only we could bring back Margaret Thatcher, it would all be okay.

00:12:01.860 Now, one of the differences between her time and now is that she was regarded as a conviction politician.

00:12:08.200 But Thatcherism didn't really start until really the end of her first term.

00:12:15.280 She was a magpie.

00:12:16.580 She stole ideas and put them all together and came up with an economic policy that was probably the most free market that we've had in this country.

00:12:24.600 But she was also a pragmatist.

00:12:28.400 And that's one of the – when I thought – when I started writing the book, I thought I could do it off the top of my head.

00:12:33.200 I thought, well, this would be really easy to do.

00:12:34.980 But it wasn't.

00:12:36.140 And writing a short book is actually much harder than writing a long book.

00:12:40.400 And first of all, you have to decide what to leave out.

00:12:42.700 But she – the lesson that I drew from writing the whole thing is that she's much more of a pragmatist than she would ever have wanted to admit to.

00:12:55.220 Most of her reforms were done quite slowly.

00:12:58.620 She wasn't a bull in a china shop.

00:13:00.840 Yes, she portrayed herself as a real conviction politician.

00:13:04.480 And she was to a large degree.

00:13:08.280 But she always regarded the word consensus as being a weak word.

00:13:13.800 And in a sense, it is.

00:13:16.160 And everyone who sort of says, oh, well, why can't politicians all just get along?

00:13:21.200 And that's not what politics is all about.

00:13:24.000 Politics is about the battle of ideas.

00:13:27.120 And if you think back to the 1980s, in foreign policy terms, it was.

00:13:31.920 It was capitalism versus communism.

00:13:34.080 And it was as simple as that.

00:13:36.360 And capitalism prevailed under the leadership of her and Ronald Reagan.

00:13:41.560 So she would make great speeches, quite inspirational speeches in many ways.

00:13:46.600 And they have stood the test of time, outlining the virtues of leadership.

00:13:54.400 And where she differs from today's leaders is that she was a leader, both in a leader of people and a leader in thought.

00:14:04.080 And Keir Starmer has no convictions at all, as far as I can see.

00:14:09.040 And that's where I think his main failing is.

00:14:11.900 Because people react to leadership.

00:14:16.820 People generally like strong leadership.

00:14:20.060 That's why sort of so many benevolent dictators actually succeeded.

00:14:25.520 Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore, I think, is the obvious example here, where, yes, Singapore was a democracy.

00:14:31.140 But he was a very authoritarian leader, but kept being re-elected because people respected him.

00:14:36.400 And they would trade certain freedoms for economic prosperity.

00:14:40.660 And safety.

00:14:41.200 And indeed.

00:14:42.660 And I think that's where she scored.

00:14:46.740 But, as I say, the image was sometimes different from the reality.

00:14:52.520 The most positive thing that happened to her was in 1977 when a Soviet newspaper called her the Iron Lady.

00:14:59.700 And she lived off that for the rest of her time in office.

00:15:04.240 And I remember a few days after that she was called that, she was making a speech, I think, in Kensington.

00:15:10.000 And stood up and said to the audience, well, here I am in my red star chiffon gown, my hair gently coiffed you, the Iron Lady of the Western world.

00:15:19.380 Of course, the audience lapped it up.

00:15:20.760 And that's the image that she had.

00:15:23.940 And she didn't like that image to be tarnished in any way.

00:15:28.020 So you had the famous U-turn speech in 1980, where she said, well, U-turn if you want to.

00:15:35.380 The lady's not for turning.

00:15:36.800 Because her economic policies at that time were causing huge amounts of unemployment.

00:15:41.020 People, even in the Conservative Party, really wondered whether she would be able to prevail.

00:15:46.640 And she had a lot of opposition with her own party.

00:15:48.620 And this is where there are lots of parallels with Kemi Bezanoff, that the chapter on her period in opposition from 75 to 79, virtually after every 200 words, I'd be thinking to myself, well, this is what Kemi's facing.

00:16:01.940 She had no policy platform at the beginning, nor do the Conservatives now.

00:16:07.520 She was the first woman leader, Kemi's first black woman leader.

00:16:12.760 And so it goes on.

00:16:14.380 And there is so much that I think Kemi Bezanoff can learn from Thatcher's period in opposition.

00:16:20.440 And a few weeks ago, Kemi WhatsAppped me with a photograph of a page from a biography by Patrick Cosgrave about her period in opposition.

00:16:30.740 And she had circled the bit.

00:16:32.020 She said, this is my life.

00:16:33.520 And this is where I think a lot of commentators don't really get that the Conservatives in 1975 were at year zero.

00:16:43.360 Here, they're probably a bit more at year zero.

00:16:45.480 Yeah, there's a big, big difference, Julian.

00:16:47.540 But there are differences.

00:16:48.500 Which is there was no reform.

00:16:50.100 There was no reform.

00:16:51.260 There was no news for us.

00:16:52.060 And there was no social media.

00:16:53.140 And there was no 24-7 news media.

00:16:56.020 Those are the big differences.

00:16:57.720 But there are lots of parallels to be drawn to, I think.

00:17:00.740 Ian, now, there are a lot of people like yourself who are fans of Thatcher.

00:17:06.980 But I think it's fair to say that she is divisive.

00:17:10.400 I think that's fair to say that.

00:17:12.240 I've got a controversial statement.

00:17:14.140 Yeah.

00:17:14.940 But particularly in the North and in places like Scotland, why does she also, why do people have such vitriol towards her?

00:17:26.020 Because they really do.

00:17:27.200 So, is it unfounded or does she deserve some of it as well?

00:17:32.080 Well, I think it is true to say that one of the failings of the Thatcher period was not to cope with the consequences of deindustrialisation.

00:17:44.220 It was quite clear that many of our manufacturing industries or our heavy industries in the 1980s were effectively bankrupt.

00:17:52.220 And in her view, well, if they keep having to have taxpayer subsidies, let them weather on the vine.

00:18:00.240 So, it caused lots of unemployment.

00:18:03.780 I mean, you look at the mining industry for a start.

00:18:06.720 Now, today's environmentalists should be thanking Margaret Thatcher for effectively shutting down the mining industry.

00:18:12.040 But they don't.

00:18:14.440 Even though she was the first world politician to make a speech on climate change in 1989, they still regard her as the devil incarnate.

00:18:23.980 Now, what the Thatcher government tried to do, they introduced lots of employment schemes to try and ameliorate the effects of unemployment.

00:18:33.520 But I don't think they quite understood the extent of it and the fact that in some particularly mining communities, but also steel communities, particularly in Scotland and the northeast,

00:18:44.680 I don't think they understood that every single male in a particular village would be employed down the mine or in the steelworks.

00:18:54.020 And if suddenly everyone loses their job, I mean, that destroys the fabric of society in a particular community.

00:19:01.520 And I don't think there was enough recognition of that.

00:19:04.320 They did have these schemes, but they were sort of, I was going to say half-hearted.

00:19:09.680 I'm not even sure that's right.

00:19:11.280 But they didn't do what they needed to do.

00:19:13.120 And some of these communities do still feel the effects of those industries shutting down.

00:19:20.800 And you can't replace everything with call centers.

00:19:24.880 And so I think that is why she is still reviled in a lot of those areas.

00:19:31.180 If you're a trigonometry fan, you probably think before taking things at face value.

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00:20:44.280 Because you look at even cities like Liverpool, I mean, try coming out as a pro-factor scouser.

00:20:51.060 I mean, it's simply not going to happen, is it?

00:20:53.720 Not generally.

00:20:54.500 I mean, there's always one, I suppose.

00:20:55.920 But you look at, I mean, Michael Heseltine effectively took Liverpool under his wing when he was Environment Secretary.

00:21:05.380 And he's still regarded as a bit of a hero in Liverpool now, even though he's a sort of filthy Tory.

00:21:11.800 Because he did do a lot to help regenerate the city.

00:21:15.540 And all of the Docklands developments really started under him.

00:21:18.800 So, but Liverpool had a hard-left council all through the night.

00:21:25.320 Well, it probably has ever since then still.

00:21:27.760 But when you have people like Derek Hatton involved and all of the consequences of that,

00:21:33.760 I mean, Conservatives have not obviously been electorally successful in Liverpool since then.

00:21:41.940 But it's going to be very interesting at the next election to see whether reform get any kind of support in areas like Liverpool.

00:21:52.240 Because if you think, most people, I think, believe that even if they think the Tories let Liverpool down,

00:21:58.540 I mean, Labour has let them down far worse.

00:22:01.820 And whether they start to be punished for that, well, I don't know.

00:22:04.820 The Liberal Democrats made a few bits of headway in Liverpool over the years.

00:22:08.500 They did control the council at some point.

00:22:10.320 So, I think there's an appetite for change, but how that's going to come about, I don't know.

00:22:14.940 One of the things I actually really liked at the book is that it was nuanced.

00:22:18.340 It's obvious that you're pro-Thatcher, but you don't shy away from some of her policies,

00:22:23.380 which later down the line, you look at it and you think to yourself,

00:22:28.100 did that cause more harm than good?

00:22:29.760 In particular, the one that I'm thinking about is people having the chance to buy their council flats.

00:22:35.320 Now, at the time, for a working class person, the chance to be able to get on the property ladder,

00:22:41.180 buy your council flat, actually get equity was transformative for huge swathes of working class communities.

00:22:47.700 The problem was that council stock was never replenished,

00:22:52.320 which meant that part of the reason we're in the mess with the housing crisis, a part of it,

00:22:58.060 and look, that was a long time ago and successive governments have failed in order to replenish that stock.

00:23:04.260 But part of it comes down to Thatcher, doesn't it?

00:23:06.420 That is the narrative that the left would come out with.

00:23:23.460 I completely agree.

00:23:25.060 There is a little bit of truth in it.

00:23:27.540 I mean, looking back, you have to say that it was a political masterstroke

00:23:35.240 because almost overnight, hundreds of thousands of diehard tribal Labour voters became Conservatives.

00:23:43.520 It was partly why she won the 79 election.

00:23:46.520 It was certainly contributed to the massive majority in 83.

00:23:50.280 And some people would even say it was the reason John Major got a narrow majority in 92.

00:23:54.280 Because once you voted Conservative once, it's easy to do it again.

00:24:00.120 And that's what people did throughout the 1980s.

00:24:03.140 And I remember in the 1983 election, I was a student and I was organising the campaign on the worst council estate in Norwich.

00:24:13.860 And I literally knocked on every single door in this area.

00:24:18.300 And I kept saying to the candidate, I said, you're going to get a lot of votes here.

00:24:23.120 He said, oh, no, you can't get votes on that estate.

00:24:26.500 I said, you watch.

00:24:27.480 And on election night, we watched the ballot boxes being emptied from that estate, more than 50% Conservative votes.

00:24:34.660 It was incredible.

00:24:36.260 And it did transform these estates because if you own something, you are going to take more care of it than if you don't.

00:24:43.200 And it was transformational all over the country.

00:24:46.660 And you could tell which estates where people had bought, lots of people had bought their houses and which hadn't.

00:24:53.640 Now, the point about replenishing the housing stock, and you're right on that, I think in 1979, 100,000 council houses were built.

00:25:01.380 In 1990, it was 8,000.

00:25:03.720 That hasn't really changed in all the years since then.

00:25:06.420 Even under Blair, that didn't change.

00:25:09.020 And it was because one of the rules about selling council houses was that councils were only allowed to keep 25% of the proceeds.

00:25:16.760 And they generally didn't spend them on new council housing.

00:25:22.300 Now, in terms of replenishing the stock, though, those houses are still there.

00:25:26.980 I mean, it wasn't as if they were being knocked down.

00:25:30.000 People were still living in them.

00:25:32.880 The problem is that the population has increased exponentially since then.

00:25:39.220 And general house building, whether it's council housing or private sector, hasn't kept pace with the demands.

00:25:44.560 So a lot of people blame the Thatcher Council House sales for the fact that we haven't got enough housing now.

00:25:51.780 And as I say, I'll admit there is an element of truth in that, but it's not the whole story.

00:25:58.400 Because what you said is that the way she's been portrayed by the left is that she's an enemy of the working class.

00:26:07.400 But as you alluded to, it's actually, that's not true.

00:26:12.420 Well, forget council houses.

00:26:14.980 Look at the share-owning democracy.

00:26:16.860 I mean, I remember these privatisation campaigns in the 1980s and massive adverts on television, the Tel-Sid ones for people to buy shares in British gas, British telecom.

00:26:27.180 All sorts of different industries were privatised.

00:26:29.520 I mean, that's another debate.

00:26:31.720 But the fact is, ordinary people were enabled to buy shares for the first time.

00:26:36.800 Because before then, people just thought, oh, that's for rich people.

00:26:39.720 That's not for the likes of me.

00:26:40.860 Well, they did.

00:26:42.780 And virtually all of the privatisation, virtually all the privatisations were oversubscribed.

00:26:50.820 More people wanted to buy shares than were available.

00:26:54.320 So that was another example of where wealth was effectively being transferred to the working classes.

00:27:02.200 You look at council houses, that is the biggest transfer of wealth to the so-called working classes in British history.

00:27:11.620 And yet it was said that she was only in favour of rich people.

00:27:15.260 Well, the evidence is not there to back that up.

00:27:18.560 It's very interesting you say that.

00:27:19.700 I remember we interviewed Nigel Lawson during the pandemic, not long before his death.

00:27:25.720 And I remember, I think, I can't remember if it was me or Francis, one of us put these same arguments to him with the criticisms.

00:27:31.000 And you know that she did win three major elections with, you know, big, big votes.

00:27:38.400 So clearly she was very popular.

00:27:40.780 Well, yes, but up to a point.

00:27:43.400 Because you have to look at the round there in that she had a split opposition in 1983 and 1987.

00:27:50.420 The Liberals had merged with the SDP, so it's the Liberal SDP Alliance.

00:27:55.180 And they got, I think, 27% of the vote in 1983 and Labour got 29.

00:28:03.440 So the opposition vote was split.

00:28:05.580 She would have won anyway, but she wouldn't have got the size of majority.

00:28:09.980 And her percentage of the vote, I think it was something like 44 and 79, 42 and 42, which compared to other elections, that's a decent performance.

00:28:23.480 But she never got over 50% of the vote.

00:28:26.780 But in our electoral system, that is pretty difficult to do, right?

00:28:30.000 It is.

00:28:30.740 Well, I can't actually remember the last time it happened.

00:28:32.820 Yeah, I don't know that that's happened.

00:28:34.600 You know what I was also going to ask about?

00:28:36.020 I think you alluded to the Iron Lady moniker a while ago.

00:28:40.740 And I think it's fair to say that it was also foreign policy and geopolitics that really helped to establish her as a great stateswoman on the world stage, as someone who was really a significant figure, not just in Britain, but around the world.

00:28:56.060 And on that, was her reputation of being strong and bold, et cetera, was that a fair characterization of her approach to foreign policy and world-related affairs?

00:29:08.140 Yes, but even there, there are myths.

00:29:10.880 And as you know, the last chapter in the book is all about the myths around her culture, and I tried to explode some of them.

00:29:18.760 The biggest myth was that she was somehow America's poodle, Ronald Reagan's poodle.

00:29:25.240 Now, she was a great ally of Reagan, but they had some quite heated disagreements, not least on the Falklands War.

00:29:31.900 Also, the invasion of Grenada, which the Queen was head of state of Grenada, and Reagan didn't give her any prior warning of what he was about to do.

00:29:42.340 And he was in the middle of a cabinet meeting when she phoned him to remonstrate, and he took the phone call while the cabinet ministers were around the table.

00:29:52.120 And at one point, and this is actually on film, I think, at one point, he took the phone from his ear, and he just allowed the rest of the cabinet to hear.

00:30:03.800 And she was ranting, and he goes, isn't she magnificent?

00:30:07.700 And there were disagreements on policy regarding the Soviet Union, and that Reagan at the Reykjavik summit wanted to effectively have a nuclear-free world.

00:30:20.180 She thought that was absolute madness and told him so.

00:30:24.220 So, again, the myth that she was just in hot to Reagan all the time.

00:30:28.840 In fairness, I'm sure that myth exists.

00:30:31.160 I have not heard that.

00:30:32.160 In fact, what I thought that she was known for is the fact that, unlike most British prime ministers that I've lived under, she was actually, while being very, very friendly and willing to work together with our American partners, was very clear about the British national interest.

00:30:48.600 And it's one of the reasons quite a lot of us would like some more of that, actually, because we want to work extremely constructively with America, I think.

00:30:57.520 But we've also got to remember Britain has its own interest.

00:30:59.880 And she was a great negotiator.

00:31:01.900 Right.

00:31:02.160 And she had a bottom line, and she would never go below that.

00:31:05.460 I mean, she would not have negotiated the Chagos deal that Starmer did.

00:31:10.160 And, I mean, we're talking on the day that apparently there's been a deal with France, where instead of one in, one out for illegal migrants, it's 17 in and one out.

00:31:21.580 Now, how he's going to sell that to the British people, I do not know.

00:31:26.420 That would never have happened under Thatcher.

00:31:27.740 And you look at her negotiating style with the EEC, where she felt that we were paying far too much in.

00:31:35.300 And she was sort of, well, she was like thumped the table and said, I want my money back.

00:31:39.720 And eventually she got it.

00:31:41.300 So she was quite, she was very trenchant in international affairs.

00:31:46.160 You look at sanctions on South Africa, where she was the only prime minister or president in the Commonwealth who refused to impose sanctions on South Africa.

00:31:57.540 So this is yet another one of these myths that the left have been able to propagate, that she was somehow in support of apartheid or even a racist.

00:32:06.460 You look at the papers, you look at all of the records, and there is nothing to substantiate that.

00:32:11.760 In fact, the direct opposite, where all of her letters to the South African leadership would demand the release of Nelson Mandela.

00:32:20.080 She would talk about how to gradually dismantle apartheid.

00:32:25.740 The meetings that she had with them, all the records of those meetings demonstrate the same thing.

00:32:31.680 And you look at the memoirs of Sir Robin Rennick, who was our ambassador to South Africa at the time.

00:32:36.940 And he lays out in graphic detail exactly what she did to help bring about the end of apartheid.

00:32:43.240 And yet she's got this reputation of somehow being sympathetic to it.

00:32:47.580 And Nelson Mandela thanked her for her role in this when he visited her.

00:32:51.160 It was only a few months before she left office.

00:32:53.880 And he came to Downing Street, and Robin Rennick had had a pre-meeting with the prime minister and basically said to him,

00:33:00.580 look, prime minister, he's waited 30 years to say what he's got to say to you.

00:33:05.340 She goes, oh, you mean I should shut up?

00:33:07.520 Because she did have a reputation for dominating meetings.

00:33:10.260 And she did shut up for an hour to the extent that the meeting went on so long

00:33:16.340 that the waiting press outside were chanting, free Nelson Mandela.

00:33:21.420 So I think it's things like that where you've got to try and look through the conventional wisdom

00:33:28.660 and actually try and look at the facts.

00:33:30.720 And when you do that, you get a very different point.

00:33:32.580 So perhaps you should explain then what was the nature of her opposition to the sanctioning of South Africa?

00:33:38.020 Because she thought that sanctions would hurt the very people that everyone else was trying to help.

00:33:44.300 And if you think about it, she was probably right on that.

00:33:47.920 And it was a very lonely position.

00:33:49.640 I mean, the various Commonwealth Heads of Government meetings,

00:33:52.300 she was viciously attacked by people and all the different sort of anti-South African pressure groups that existed.

00:33:59.120 But I remember at one, she said, I don't care if it's just me alone.

00:34:04.680 If you're right, you have to stick to what you believe, even if it's a very lonely position.

00:34:09.460 Sounds like Keir Starmer.

00:34:12.100 I mean, sometimes she didn't help herself with some of those things that she would say.

00:34:16.220 Because she did give some sort of concession on the importation or export of Krugerrands or something.

00:34:22.220 And I think she must have been in quite a tetchy mood at this press conference because she goes, yes, I did make a concession.

00:34:30.320 But it was just a little teensy-weensy concession.

00:34:33.360 It means nothing.

00:34:34.720 You think, well, why did you do that?

00:34:36.840 Similarly, when she came to an agreement with the Irish government under Gareth Fitzgerald on the Anglo-Irish agreement in 1985,

00:34:43.440 which caused her a lot of headaches within her own party because they regarded it as a bit of a sellout to the Republic of Ireland.

00:34:50.960 Again, she had a press conference where she was quite insulting to the Irish.

00:34:55.220 And she knew that she'd gone too far and did apologise afterwards because you think, well, if you're going to come to an agreement,

00:35:01.240 you've kind of got to stick to it and defend it.

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00:36:04.640 But you know, what you're saying, actually, particularly with the Anglo-Irish agreement,

00:36:23.460 particularly with apartheid,

00:36:25.340 is this is a woman who is quite consistent in her principles,

00:36:29.120 which is, as you said before, softly, softly, catchy monkey.

00:36:31.780 You don't really, in life or in politics, get in anywhere,

00:36:36.540 get anywhere by coming in and being unnecessarily combative.

00:36:40.540 It takes time.

00:36:41.820 I mean, I'm sure if I thought hard enough,

00:36:44.300 I could think of things where she did do that and was combative.

00:36:48.380 Well, she was combative anyway.

00:36:49.420 Of course.

00:36:49.800 In just her natural way.

00:36:51.680 She was very combative with the EEC, as it then was,

00:36:54.940 about the British rebate.

00:36:57.080 And some diplomats at the time thought...

00:36:58.920 Sorry to pause it, Ian.

00:36:59.860 There are people listening to this who've got no idea what the EEC is.

00:37:02.480 Well, it was the before one of the EU.

00:37:04.220 Okay.

00:37:04.580 Up until 1992, it was called the European Economic Community.

00:37:08.440 And the Maastricht Treaty in 92 turned it into the European Union,

00:37:11.860 much more of a political entity.

00:37:14.620 And she had always been pro-Europe.

00:37:16.520 And this is, again, one of the things...

00:37:18.660 People often say, well, would Margaret Thatcher have voted for Brexit

00:37:21.400 if she'd been alive in 2016?

00:37:23.460 Well, we can never know.

00:37:24.920 So most people who knew her far better than I did

00:37:29.360 believe that she would have voted to remain.

00:37:32.560 She was never anti-EEC.

00:37:35.200 She was anti some of the rules and regulations.

00:37:37.600 And she became, I suppose, ever more Eurosceptic as the years went on.

00:37:42.640 But when the 1975 referendum on our membership,

00:37:46.840 only two years after we'd joined,

00:37:48.200 she was pictured in a jumper with all the flags on

00:37:53.780 from the different countries.

00:37:55.520 She made speeches in favour of remaining a member of the EEC.

00:37:59.980 And again, if you read a lot of her speeches,

00:38:02.880 they were very pro-Europe.

00:38:04.580 Even the famous Bruce speech in 1988,

00:38:07.960 where she said, well, we haven't successfully rolled back

00:38:10.480 the frontiers of the state in the UK

00:38:12.420 to see them reimposed at European level.

00:38:14.640 I mean, quite a direct thing to say.

00:38:18.220 But you read the rest of it,

00:38:19.800 and it's full of praise for the single market,

00:38:22.580 full of praise for sort of a bit more European integration.

00:38:27.720 So again, people imagine,

00:38:29.920 I mean, one of the reasons that she was brought down

00:38:31.900 was because she was,

00:38:33.220 because of her strident tone over the future of the EEC,

00:38:38.860 where you had a socialist president

00:38:40.600 of the European Commission, Jacques Delors,

00:38:42.440 who effectively wanted to create a United States of Europe.

00:38:47.020 And she saw that coming a mile off,

00:38:48.660 and she was a great believer in the nation state.

00:38:51.540 And the speech that probably precipitated her downfall

00:38:57.180 more than any other

00:38:58.240 was at the beginning of November 1990,

00:39:01.640 where she'd just been to the Rome summit

00:39:03.680 and came back to do a statement to the House of Commons.

00:39:06.860 And she did her famous no, no, no,

00:39:09.660 sort of no to the European Parliament

00:39:11.500 becoming the legislator,

00:39:12.700 no to the Commission becoming the executive, etc.

00:39:15.920 And that really offended a lot of pro-European conservatives.

00:39:20.980 But I don't believe

00:39:22.500 that she would have wanted to actually leave.

00:39:27.340 But as I say, we will never know.

00:39:29.040 Before we get on to her downfall,

00:39:30.640 and we'll talk about all of that,

00:39:31.740 because it's a fascinating story,

00:39:33.200 there is one myth that you talk about in the book,

00:39:36.200 which I find particularly interesting,

00:39:38.460 which was told to me,

00:39:40.080 which is that by the top,

00:39:42.460 by sort of the early 80s, 81, 80,

00:39:46.120 it looked like she was on the way out.

00:39:48.180 Her goose was cooked.

00:39:49.840 All of a sudden,

00:39:50.720 the Argentines invaded the Falklands,

00:39:53.320 or las Malvinas,

00:39:54.260 whichever you want to put it.

00:39:55.520 I think we'll stick to the Falklands, Francis,

00:39:57.020 if you don't mind.

00:39:58.700 And that saved her political bacon.

00:40:00.880 Up to a point, Lord Copper.

00:40:05.040 You say her goose was maybe cooked.

00:40:08.580 Well, it was goose green

00:40:09.840 and the other battles in the Falklands

00:40:11.520 that certainly,

00:40:13.000 I mean, it reinforced her reputation as an Iron Lady.

00:40:15.780 It sent a really direct message to the Soviet Union.

00:40:19.520 Don't mess with the Brits.

00:40:21.500 And because I think that there was a general view,

00:40:24.360 certainly in the communist world at the time,

00:40:26.720 that, well, they would prevail

00:40:28.000 because the West was too weak.

00:40:29.560 And we all know from recent experience

00:40:32.040 what happens when the West is too weak.

00:40:35.280 So the Soviet Union were really watching events

00:40:38.660 very, very closely.

00:40:41.980 She could have been toppled over the Falklands very easily.

00:40:46.820 She had a really torrid time.

00:40:49.160 On the day after the invasion,

00:40:50.860 there was a House of Commons debate

00:40:52.140 and it did not go well.

00:40:54.260 She didn't give a good speech.

00:40:55.560 Her defence secretary, John Knott,

00:40:56.920 gave a terrible speech.

00:40:58.180 There was a meeting of the 1922 committee.

00:41:01.180 It was a Saturday sitting at the House of Commons,

00:41:03.080 so very dramatic.

00:41:04.880 And they were torn apart by Conservative backbenchers.

00:41:07.660 Well, how could you not have known

00:41:09.240 or foreseen that this was going to happen?

00:41:11.680 It was a perfectly reasonable question to ask.

00:41:14.560 And that night, I think it was that night,

00:41:17.900 she was in her room in the House of Commons

00:41:20.180 with a lot of other people

00:41:21.540 and trying to think, well, what do we do now?

00:41:25.020 And the first sea lord arrived in full military uniform

00:41:28.700 and basically said,

00:41:31.900 we have to send a task force to retake the Falklands.

00:41:35.640 And she said, what do you mean we have to?

00:41:37.900 He said, because if we don't,

00:41:39.520 we'll be a laughingstock of the world.

00:41:41.620 Britain won't mean anything any longer.

00:41:43.560 And that was really all it took to persuade her to do this.

00:41:47.400 So she said, well, how long will it take?

00:41:49.540 And he said, it'll take me two days

00:41:51.940 to put the task force together.

00:41:53.700 It will sail on Monday

00:41:54.780 and it'll take three weeks to get to the Falklands.

00:41:58.080 And she said, no, you mean three days?

00:41:59.520 He said, no, three weeks.

00:42:01.580 I don't know whether she knew it was 8,000 miles away or not.

00:42:04.140 But, and, and, well, we all know what happened then.

00:42:08.020 But that was a real formative experience for her

00:42:10.500 because a lot of her cabinet had fought in wars.

00:42:14.080 Willie Whitelaw got an emcee, I think,

00:42:16.060 in the Second World War.

00:42:17.160 Francis Pym also, several others.

00:42:20.660 And they had to sit her down

00:42:22.080 because when the first British ship was sunk,

00:42:24.820 she got quite emotional about it.

00:42:27.100 And they had to sit her down and say,

00:42:28.780 look, these things happen in war.

00:42:30.120 You have to sort of get over

00:42:32.720 any sort of emotional attachment.

00:42:35.860 But Carol Thatcher, her daughter,

00:42:37.400 tells the story that she would come back

00:42:39.020 to the flat in Downing Street every night

00:42:40.920 and see her mother writing in her own hand

00:42:45.540 letters to the families of all of the sailors

00:42:48.540 or soldiers that had been killed

00:42:50.480 and with tears streaming down her face,

00:42:53.260 which again sort of goes against

00:42:54.620 the hardline image that she had.

00:42:56.540 So it was probably,

00:43:01.480 of every event in her premiership,

00:43:03.960 it was probably the most significant

00:43:05.460 in the way that it led her to become

00:43:07.940 maybe a slightly different prime minister

00:43:09.500 than she had been before.

00:43:11.300 Did it win her the 1983 election?

00:43:13.420 Well, it certainly didn't do her any harm.

00:43:15.520 But if you look at the polls,

00:43:17.060 they were already starting to turn.

00:43:18.700 The economy was already starting to turn

00:43:20.960 when the Falklands War had happened.

00:43:22.260 So I'm sceptical.

00:43:25.780 I think the majority would have been smaller.

00:43:27.740 She would have still won,

00:43:28.840 given that the Labour Party

00:43:30.020 were in such a catastrophic state

00:43:31.540 under a very left-wing leader, Michael Foote.

00:43:33.740 She would have still won,

00:43:34.800 but not by 144.

00:43:36.540 Because what's also interesting about Thatcher

00:43:39.440 is that she was, like you said,

00:43:42.040 she was also a pragmatist.

00:43:43.820 So for instance,

00:43:44.580 her friendship with General Pinochet

00:43:47.280 is something that I always struggled with

00:43:49.600 because I have friends who are Chilean

00:43:52.220 and I know what an awful, terrible man

00:43:54.680 he was to his own people.

00:43:56.200 Do you know, I found out recently

00:43:57.400 I've got a Pinochet in my family tree.

00:44:00.360 Don't you know there was something

00:44:01.300 I didn't like about you, Ian?

00:44:03.420 Well, again, here,

00:44:05.620 the reason that,

00:44:07.200 I mean, to describe it as a friendship,

00:44:08.680 I think is sort of overcooking the egg

00:44:10.540 a little bit.

00:44:11.660 But without Pinochet and Chile,

00:44:14.940 we would have lost far more ships

00:44:16.400 in the Falklands

00:44:17.240 because he gave us intelligence

00:44:20.520 as to when Argentinian planes

00:44:23.360 were taking off

00:44:24.380 from the Argentinian mainland

00:44:25.740 to go and bomb British ships.

00:44:27.780 And on the three days

00:44:29.040 that that radar didn't work

00:44:30.940 or was being fixed or something,

00:44:33.340 four British ships were sunk.

00:44:35.400 So she always felt

00:44:36.640 a bit of a debt towards him.

00:44:38.780 And yes, he was a brutal dictator,

00:44:40.700 absolutely.

00:44:42.380 But she never forgot that.

00:44:43.920 And when the Blair government arrested,

00:44:48.240 well, I say the Blair government,

00:44:49.380 I mean, governments don't arrest people

00:44:51.220 in this country,

00:44:51.780 but he was arrested in Britain

00:44:53.380 because there was a warrant out

00:44:54.960 from the Spanish government

00:44:55.980 for his arrest.

00:44:57.360 And he was under house arrest,

00:44:58.860 I think in Sunningdale

00:44:59.800 for quite a long time.

00:45:01.680 And she sort of led the campaign

00:45:03.760 to allow him to be released

00:45:05.360 to go back to Chile.

00:45:07.780 And got a huge amount of flack for this.

00:45:10.800 And I quote from a speech

00:45:14.160 that she gave

00:45:14.740 at the 1999 Tory party conference

00:45:16.900 where she explains

00:45:18.320 why she was doing this.

00:45:20.680 And it was because of

00:45:22.580 the amount of British lives

00:45:24.320 that Chile had helped save

00:45:25.880 during the Falklands War.

00:45:27.160 Now, that's a basic human thing,

00:45:28.800 I think.

00:45:29.580 And she did feel

00:45:30.380 that she owed him a debt

00:45:31.440 and that our country owed him a debt.

00:45:33.060 And I think she was right on that.

00:45:34.760 Ian, and where do you think

00:45:35.860 she might have stood on?

00:45:37.380 We talked about the fact

00:45:38.620 that the situation in 2025

00:45:40.340 is very different

00:45:41.220 to the one in 1979.

00:45:43.660 But nonetheless,

00:45:44.540 where do you think

00:45:45.060 she might have stood

00:45:45.720 on the big issues of today?

00:45:47.900 The cultural aspect of things

00:45:50.060 has become very,

00:45:50.880 very important in Britain.

00:45:52.160 Mass immigration,

00:45:53.340 the impact of illegal immigration.

00:45:55.580 The economy is obviously

00:45:56.740 a problem in its own way too.

00:46:00.540 Where do you think

00:46:01.440 she might have come down

00:46:02.320 on all these things?

00:46:03.000 And what might have been

00:46:03.760 her policy prescriptions?

00:46:05.620 Well, I don't know

00:46:06.480 what her policy prescriptions

00:46:07.660 would have been,

00:46:08.400 but she was always concerned

00:46:09.680 about excessive immigration.

00:46:12.100 She made a,

00:46:12.880 I think, actually,

00:46:13.540 I think it was an interview,

00:46:14.660 not a speech,

00:46:15.440 in 1978,

00:46:17.100 something around there.

00:46:18.500 And at that point,

00:46:20.360 the National Front,

00:46:21.560 which was the forerunner

00:46:22.520 of the British National Party,

00:46:23.760 a horrible,

00:46:24.540 violent, racist organisation,

00:46:26.680 they seemed to be

00:46:28.140 gaining in popularity,

00:46:29.480 particularly among

00:46:30.020 football hooligans.

00:46:31.940 Now, whether she was

00:46:33.060 trying to signal

00:46:33.920 to people on the hard ride

00:46:36.480 that she would be hardline

00:46:37.780 on immigration,

00:46:38.580 I don't know.

00:46:39.660 But in this interview,

00:46:40.920 she used the word swamped.

00:46:43.820 Now, imagine if Nigel Farage

00:46:45.380 used that word nowadays,

00:46:46.760 what the reaction would be.

00:46:47.980 Well, it was exactly

00:46:48.740 the same in 1978.

00:46:50.760 She was absolutely

00:46:51.740 castigated for it.

00:46:54.800 Immigration was never

00:46:55.760 really a problem

00:46:56.380 in the 1980s.

00:46:58.040 It just wasn't.

00:46:59.440 There weren't labour shortages

00:47:00.560 at all.

00:47:02.540 Well, the numbers

00:47:03.100 were completely different.

00:47:04.040 Yeah, it was literally

00:47:05.360 low tens of thousands.

00:47:07.100 And I think there were

00:47:08.000 some years when

00:47:08.660 there was net emigration.

00:47:10.740 So I think she would

00:47:12.500 be horrified by what's

00:47:13.800 going on over the channel

00:47:15.180 at the moment.

00:47:16.460 What would her

00:47:17.220 prescription be for it?

00:47:19.760 I genuinely don't know.

00:47:21.460 Well, I don't imagine

00:47:22.260 she'd be faffing about

00:47:23.600 with you.

00:47:25.100 Well, you say that,

00:47:26.100 but people blithely say,

00:47:27.680 well, send in the Royal Navy,

00:47:29.000 which you might think

00:47:29.700 would be a natural thing

00:47:30.620 for her to want to do.

00:47:31.680 Until you think,

00:47:32.820 yeah, but what would

00:47:33.400 the Royal Navy actually do?

00:47:36.040 Do what the Australian Navy do?

00:47:37.900 No, no, no.

00:47:38.700 The Australians get your boat,

00:47:40.620 they turn it around,

00:47:41.880 they leave enough fuel in it

00:47:42.900 so you can only return

00:47:43.820 to where you've come from.

00:47:44.420 But that's not comparing

00:47:44.440 like with like.

00:47:45.340 I mean, it was successful

00:47:46.480 for the Australians.

00:47:47.380 They had this massive ocean.

00:47:48.940 Whereas we're dealing

00:47:49.760 with the biggest shipping lane

00:47:50.860 in the world.

00:47:51.620 Now, I don't think

00:47:52.620 you can necessarily

00:47:53.660 compare the two.

00:47:56.100 But she would have

00:47:57.080 probably done something

00:47:58.040 far more hardline

00:47:59.060 than any British government

00:48:00.120 has done,

00:48:00.620 but I don't know

00:48:01.160 what that would be.

00:48:01.860 Well, that's what I'm saying

00:48:02.600 and that's what I'm getting at.

00:48:03.960 I don't think she'd be

00:48:05.040 faffing about

00:48:05.840 with pretending

00:48:06.600 to smash the gangs

00:48:07.880 while letting noise.

00:48:09.000 I don't think she'd do a deal

00:48:10.320 where, you know,

00:48:11.760 it's one for 17.

00:48:12.780 Well, she certainly

00:48:13.140 wouldn't have given

00:48:13.820 the French 770 million

00:48:15.540 pounds to do sweet FA.

00:48:17.220 Right, exactly.

00:48:19.240 And did she have

00:48:22.000 a sense of what it,

00:48:24.080 did she ever talk

00:48:24.940 about British identity

00:48:26.340 or what it means

00:48:27.200 to be British,

00:48:28.240 what are British values?

00:48:29.400 Is that something

00:48:30.120 that she...

00:48:30.680 She really did

00:48:31.540 and I think

00:48:32.160 that's a subject

00:48:33.180 that very few politicians

00:48:34.560 can be very articulate on.

00:48:37.580 If,

00:48:38.800 and I'm the same,

00:48:40.020 if somebody says to me,

00:48:41.020 well, what does it mean

00:48:41.880 to be British Ian?

00:48:44.180 You kind of know it,

00:48:45.580 but it's difficult

00:48:46.180 to explain.

00:48:47.820 She didn't find it

00:48:48.640 difficult to explain

00:48:49.460 at all.

00:48:50.360 It was sort of like,

00:48:51.080 she was very good

00:48:51.980 at articulating

00:48:52.740 the importance

00:48:54.880 of freedom

00:48:55.520 of the individual,

00:48:56.260 for example.

00:48:56.780 and there are

00:48:58.560 so many clips now

00:48:59.820 that doing the rounds

00:49:00.960 on sort of Facebook reels

00:49:02.360 where people are taking

00:49:03.240 little excerpts

00:49:04.020 from her speeches

00:49:04.760 and it's incredible

00:49:07.400 how in some ways

00:49:10.260 quite moving it is

00:49:11.380 that she does it

00:49:12.000 in a way that

00:49:12.640 there's a bit of an American,

00:49:14.320 I mean Americans

00:49:14.920 are very good about

00:49:15.720 talking about

00:49:16.300 what it means

00:49:16.740 to be American

00:49:17.400 and proud to be

00:49:18.140 an American

00:49:18.520 and all that

00:49:18.920 and she can do that

00:49:20.480 and whether she learned

00:49:21.120 that from Reagan

00:49:21.700 or not,

00:49:22.120 I don't know

00:49:22.560 but very few

00:49:23.120 other British politicians

00:49:24.120 can.

00:49:24.620 So yes,

00:49:25.420 identity I think

00:49:26.580 was important.

00:49:27.580 But what was it

00:49:27.940 that she,

00:49:28.720 you might not be able

00:49:29.720 to do it full justice

00:49:30.660 but what was

00:49:31.300 the central theme

00:49:32.380 of what it means

00:49:33.200 to be British

00:49:33.720 in her telling?

00:49:34.980 I think she was

00:49:35.920 very proud

00:49:36.680 of British heritage

00:49:37.680 and she was proud

00:49:39.120 of the Empire

00:49:39.720 which I mean

00:49:40.240 we're not allowed

00:49:40.880 to say anything

00:49:41.480 in favour

00:49:41.960 of the British Empire.

00:49:43.220 You are on this show

00:49:44.060 mate.

00:49:46.720 But it's the sort of thing

00:49:48.080 I know if I talk about

00:49:49.120 it on my radio show

00:49:50.060 I mean literally

00:49:51.360 are torn limb from limb

00:49:53.420 for even suggesting

00:49:54.680 there might possibly

00:49:55.600 be something positive

00:49:56.980 about the British Empire

00:49:59.780 in terms of educating people

00:50:02.060 about democracy

00:50:02.740 for example

00:50:03.380 and I think she was

00:50:05.060 she was very proud

00:50:06.400 of our cultural history

00:50:08.160 our political history

00:50:09.320 in bringing democracy

00:50:11.200 to other countries.

00:50:13.760 She also was incredibly

00:50:16.400 respectful and proud

00:50:17.460 of the monarchy

00:50:18.020 and again this is another myth

00:50:20.020 that she didn't get on

00:50:20.660 with the Queen.

00:50:21.740 Well if she didn't get on

00:50:22.440 with the Queen

00:50:22.940 why did the Queen

00:50:23.840 go to her funeral

00:50:24.720 which she had never done

00:50:25.700 for any other British

00:50:26.540 Prime Minister

00:50:27.040 apart from Churchill

00:50:27.940 who was said

00:50:29.100 that Howard Wilson

00:50:29.740 was her favourite

00:50:30.460 Prime Minister

00:50:31.080 she didn't go

00:50:31.540 to his funeral

00:50:32.120 and the way

00:50:33.940 that their relationship

00:50:34.780 was portrayed

00:50:35.440 in the Crown

00:50:36.260 was it was utter fiction

00:50:38.700 and it was almost

00:50:40.520 as if they were

00:50:41.120 at daggers drawn

00:50:41.760 the whole time

00:50:42.480 well it's simply not true

00:50:43.540 I think the Queen

00:50:44.100 didn't agree with her

00:50:46.640 on South Africa

00:50:47.400 for example

00:50:48.200 I think there were

00:50:49.220 one or two issues

00:50:50.040 and I think she was

00:50:50.780 concerned about the rise

00:50:51.800 in unemployment

00:50:52.400 but her role

00:50:53.960 as the monarch

00:50:54.680 was to counsel

00:50:56.140 advise and wall

00:50:57.340 and that's as far

00:50:58.020 as it went

00:50:58.600 and there's a wonderful

00:51:01.000 anecdote

00:51:01.600 I can't remember

00:51:02.680 what I put in the book

00:51:03.440 I don't think I did

00:51:04.360 on the day

00:51:06.820 of her election

00:51:07.440 in 79

00:51:08.060 she went to

00:51:09.200 the Queen

00:51:09.920 for the Queen

00:51:10.720 to ask her

00:51:11.200 to form a government

00:51:11.880 and the Queen's

00:51:13.640 private secretary

00:51:14.220 met her at her car

00:51:15.340 took her through

00:51:16.660 the palace

00:51:17.120 and said

00:51:17.440 now when you walk

00:51:18.120 into the room

00:51:18.860 you walk up

00:51:20.560 to the Queen

00:51:21.160 you do a curtsy

00:51:22.320 and then

00:51:23.280 you kiss hands

00:51:24.380 and I'm not sure

00:51:25.140 there is actually

00:51:25.680 any kissing

00:51:26.180 so Margaret Thatcher

00:51:28.000 wanted to be

00:51:29.800 deeply respectful

00:51:30.840 did the biggest

00:51:32.200 curtsy

00:51:32.740 you've ever seen

00:51:33.500 anyone do

00:51:34.380 and then couldn't

00:51:35.420 get up

00:51:35.840 and so

00:51:37.180 she looked plaintively

00:51:38.340 at the private secretary

00:51:39.420 who sort of

00:51:41.000 came over

00:51:41.600 and grabbed her

00:51:42.520 by the hand

00:51:43.140 but he couldn't

00:51:44.140 pull her up

00:51:44.720 on his own

00:51:45.180 so the Queen

00:51:45.880 had to come up

00:51:47.020 and they sort of

00:51:48.020 pulled her up

00:51:48.600 off the floor

00:51:49.340 she would have

00:51:50.620 been mortified

00:51:51.460 by that

00:51:52.000 because it would

00:51:52.960 have been

00:51:53.180 quite humiliating

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00:53:37.640 and Ian

00:53:39.220 one of the things

00:53:40.360 that I think

00:53:41.280 all men

00:53:41.860 or straight men

00:53:42.960 at least

00:53:43.320 like to imagine

00:53:44.140 or think about

00:53:45.720 is that

00:53:46.260 the feminine

00:53:47.140 power that she

00:53:48.160 had over all

00:53:48.940 these men

00:53:49.380 that she would

00:53:49.920 be dealing

00:53:50.400 with

00:53:50.640 the flirtatiousness

00:53:52.000 the fact that

00:53:53.220 she used that

00:53:54.200 very effectively

00:53:55.180 her feminine

00:53:56.280 charms

00:53:56.700 how much truth

00:53:57.400 is there to that

00:53:58.340 oh a huge amount

00:53:59.320 um

00:54:00.180 François Mitterrand

00:54:01.280 the president of

00:54:02.020 France at the time

00:54:02.880 not somebody

00:54:04.480 ideologically

00:54:05.340 on the same page

00:54:06.480 as Margaret Thatcher

00:54:07.360 but he had a huge

00:54:08.900 respect for her

00:54:09.740 and he described her

00:54:10.540 as having the eyes

00:54:11.380 of Caligula

00:54:12.140 and the mouth

00:54:12.720 of Marilyn Monroe

00:54:13.520 and she really

00:54:15.440 played up to that

00:54:16.420 I think with

00:54:17.560 Ronald Reagan

00:54:18.200 it was

00:54:18.660 it was the same

00:54:19.720 people often ask me

00:54:21.500 well how would she

00:54:22.120 deal with Donald

00:54:22.760 Trump

00:54:23.160 which again

00:54:24.680 is an impossible

00:54:25.200 question to ask

00:54:25.940 how does anyone

00:54:26.400 deal with Donald

00:54:26.960 Trump

00:54:27.240 but

00:54:27.900 I'm not sure

00:54:29.660 whether he would

00:54:30.260 have been susceptible

00:54:31.000 to that kind of

00:54:32.000 thing from her

00:54:32.800 in terms of the

00:54:34.080 sort of flirty

00:54:34.740 flirtiness

00:54:35.640 you're looking

00:54:38.280 amused

00:54:38.920 well he appears

00:54:40.040 to me at least

00:54:40.720 to be someone

00:54:41.180 who's very susceptible

00:54:42.060 to the female

00:54:42.920 I don't know

00:54:44.060 I'm not sure

00:54:44.720 whether she would

00:54:45.920 have worked on him

00:54:46.660 I'm not sure

00:54:47.160 if what you're

00:54:48.440 saying is she's

00:54:48.920 not his type

00:54:49.540 I probably agree

00:54:50.360 but

00:54:51.520 but I

00:54:53.340 I think

00:54:55.000 that is something

00:54:56.060 it's an interesting

00:54:56.640 conversation because

00:54:57.600 I think

00:54:58.060 as women have

00:55:00.340 become more

00:55:00.940 empowered and

00:55:01.660 have gone into

00:55:02.260 the workplace

00:55:02.940 more and

00:55:03.900 become more

00:55:04.600 like men

00:55:05.260 I think

00:55:06.280 there are

00:55:06.600 fewer and

00:55:07.040 fewer women

00:55:07.520 who are

00:55:07.860 openly willing

00:55:08.800 to use

00:55:09.420 those

00:55:09.820 very powerful

00:55:10.980 tools actually

00:55:11.760 that are in

00:55:12.380 their arsenal

00:55:12.980 you know

00:55:14.200 for understandable

00:55:15.200 reasons of course

00:55:16.000 because they

00:55:16.800 come with risk

00:55:17.440 if you're not

00:55:17.940 someone who's

00:55:18.380 in a position

00:55:18.860 of real power

00:55:19.520 like she was

00:55:20.220 but I

00:55:22.320 see the way

00:55:23.720 some people

00:55:24.200 react to

00:55:24.580 Georgia Maloney

00:55:25.300 you know

00:55:25.880 I think

00:55:27.080 there is a

00:55:27.460 real power

00:55:28.120 in that

00:55:28.520 and it's

00:55:29.000 interesting

00:55:29.400 to see

00:55:30.020 somebody

00:55:30.540 like her

00:55:31.900 who was

00:55:32.220 both

00:55:32.480 simultaneously

00:55:33.060 very

00:55:33.440 you might

00:55:34.080 say very

00:55:34.400 masculine

00:55:34.800 in many

00:55:35.300 ways

00:55:35.640 but also

00:55:36.500 deeply

00:55:36.960 unembarrassed

00:55:37.860 about being

00:55:38.480 very feminine

00:55:39.280 and using

00:55:40.140 that to get

00:55:40.920 what she

00:55:41.240 wanted

00:55:41.560 there's also

00:55:42.420 a great

00:55:42.780 anecdote

00:55:43.140 about Jim

00:55:43.680 Pryor

00:55:44.020 who I

00:55:44.240 talked about

00:55:44.620 the employment

00:55:45.460 secretary

00:55:45.980 and he was

00:55:48.320 talking to her

00:55:48.840 one day

00:55:49.220 and he goes

00:55:49.560 Margaret

00:55:49.860 you're sounding

00:55:50.320 very sexy

00:55:51.020 today

00:55:51.480 he goes

00:55:52.700 have you

00:55:52.960 got a

00:55:53.260 cold

00:55:53.680 she says

00:55:54.440 Jim

00:55:55.100 I don't

00:55:56.160 need to

00:55:56.560 have a

00:55:57.160 cold

00:55:57.500 to be

00:55:57.840 sexy

00:55:58.300 and she

00:56:00.700 did

00:56:00.880 there was

00:56:01.200 a certain

00:56:01.700 type of

00:56:02.240 man

00:56:02.560 that she

00:56:02.940 quite liked

00:56:03.700 usually

00:56:04.520 quite tall

00:56:05.480 I mean

00:56:06.340 Cecil Parkinson

00:56:07.040 was one

00:56:08.380 so a very

00:56:08.900 good looking

00:56:09.560 man

00:56:10.240 who she

00:56:10.640 promoted

00:56:11.080 very quickly

00:56:11.760 John Moore

00:56:12.740 who nobody

00:56:13.600 remembers now

00:56:14.360 but he was

00:56:14.920 seen as

00:56:15.400 possibly going

00:56:16.580 to be her

00:56:16.920 successor

00:56:17.340 in 1987

00:56:18.160 then he had

00:56:18.820 some sort

00:56:19.200 of breakdown

00:56:19.640 but again

00:56:20.480 a very

00:56:20.820 sort of

00:56:21.140 suave

00:56:21.620 looking man

00:56:22.220 she liked

00:56:22.620 a man

00:56:22.920 in uniform

00:56:23.640 I mean

00:56:25.740 I don't want

00:56:25.980 to over-reg the

00:56:26.500 pudding on this

00:56:27.080 but I mean

00:56:27.960 I think

00:56:28.720 she was

00:56:29.120 well aware

00:56:29.900 of her

00:56:32.140 attraction

00:56:32.620 to a

00:56:34.380 certain type

00:56:34.960 of man

00:56:35.360 very interesting

00:56:36.800 and she was

00:56:37.400 a bit of a

00:56:37.780 fan hag

00:56:38.760 a what

00:56:39.340 have you not

00:56:41.500 heard this

00:56:41.960 expression

00:56:42.400 no

00:56:42.780 go on

00:56:43.900 try as you

00:56:44.400 explain it

00:56:44.840 I think it's

00:56:46.240 best that you

00:56:46.660 do it

00:56:47.040 actually

00:56:47.380 no with my

00:56:48.000 voice it's

00:56:48.460 better that I

00:56:48.960 do it

00:56:49.320 it's a

00:56:50.160 woman who

00:56:50.780 likes the

00:56:51.540 company of

00:56:52.220 gay men

00:56:52.660 that is what

00:56:54.460 I assume

00:56:55.100 but it

00:56:56.600 doesn't sound

00:56:57.260 quite as

00:56:57.660 politically

00:56:58.080 correct in

00:56:58.800 the modern

00:56:59.280 context

00:57:00.100 it's not

00:57:00.260 the phrase

00:57:00.700 maybe that

00:57:01.360 you hear

00:57:01.600 too often

00:57:02.220 nowadays

00:57:02.860 but she

00:57:03.900 had a lot

00:57:04.440 of gay men

00:57:05.100 working for

00:57:05.800 her

00:57:05.960 Matthew

00:57:06.400 Paris

00:57:06.920 worked for

00:57:07.480 her

00:57:07.580 in opposition

00:57:08.200 and she

00:57:10.640 was actually

00:57:10.980 quite liberal

00:57:11.720 much more

00:57:12.680 liberal on

00:57:13.120 some social

00:57:13.680 issues than

00:57:14.320 again her

00:57:14.840 reputation

00:57:15.280 suggests

00:57:15.800 because people

00:57:16.660 think of

00:57:17.300 her support

00:57:19.220 for section

00:57:19.840 28 which

00:57:20.920 banned the

00:57:21.360 promotion of

00:57:21.900 homosexuality in

00:57:22.820 schools

00:57:23.260 the reality

00:57:24.160 is if you

00:57:24.600 read Charles

00:57:25.040 Moore's

00:57:25.360 book she

00:57:25.940 was never

00:57:26.240 really in

00:57:26.640 favour of

00:57:27.080 it but

00:57:27.340 she felt

00:57:28.800 she had to

00:57:29.300 agree to

00:57:30.320 the amendment

00:57:30.980 that Dame

00:57:31.680 Jill Knight

00:57:32.180 an MP had

00:57:32.720 put down to

00:57:33.320 the legislation

00:57:34.140 because she

00:57:35.400 owed her one

00:57:35.940 for something

00:57:36.580 in the past

00:57:37.840 now it should

00:57:39.220 never have

00:57:39.700 happened in

00:57:40.240 my view

00:57:41.060 but it was

00:57:42.420 something

00:57:42.800 and you can't

00:57:44.500 look at these

00:57:45.020 things through

00:57:45.420 the prism of

00:57:46.100 2025

00:57:46.720 you have to

00:57:47.520 think what was

00:57:48.140 it like back

00:57:49.100 in 1988

00:57:49.880 and as

00:57:51.140 somebody who

00:57:52.200 at that

00:57:53.440 time

00:57:53.880 I mean I

00:57:54.320 knew I

00:57:54.620 was gay

00:57:55.020 but I

00:57:55.320 hadn't come

00:57:55.760 out

00:57:55.960 I didn't

00:57:56.800 actually see

00:57:57.220 a problem

00:57:57.680 with it

00:57:58.100 which people

00:57:58.760 would be

00:57:58.960 horrified by

00:57:59.780 because I

00:58:00.520 didn't think

00:58:01.040 it was right

00:58:01.720 to promote

00:58:02.720 homosexuality

00:58:03.740 in schools

00:58:04.380 but promoting

00:58:06.000 something

00:58:06.700 is not the

00:58:07.640 same as

00:58:07.940 discussing

00:58:08.400 something

00:58:09.000 and it

00:58:09.820 meant that

00:58:10.380 teachers felt

00:58:11.220 that if a

00:58:12.360 15 year old

00:58:13.540 boy

00:58:14.060 basically said

00:58:16.020 I think I

00:58:16.560 might be gay

00:58:17.200 they felt

00:58:18.000 they couldn't

00:58:18.440 even engage

00:58:19.120 in the

00:58:19.360 conversation

00:58:19.920 because they

00:58:20.460 might be

00:58:20.880 prosecuted

00:58:21.620 now there

00:58:22.240 weren't

00:58:22.540 I don't

00:58:22.980 think

00:58:23.180 any

00:58:23.460 prosecutions

00:58:24.120 ever

00:58:24.480 but it

00:58:25.520 led to

00:58:26.500 the

00:58:26.760 Tory

00:58:27.000 party

00:58:27.340 being

00:58:27.640 seen

00:58:28.000 as

00:58:28.220 being

00:58:28.540 very

00:58:28.920 anti-gay

00:58:29.740 which

00:58:30.900 I mean

00:58:31.220 anybody

00:58:31.540 who knows

00:58:31.940 anything

00:58:32.220 about the

00:58:32.540 Tory

00:58:32.720 party

00:58:33.000 knows

00:58:33.400 that

00:58:33.760 without

00:58:34.260 gay

00:58:34.600 men

00:58:34.980 in particular

00:58:36.020 most

00:58:36.760 local

00:58:37.100 associations

00:58:37.740 wouldn't

00:58:38.240 exist

00:58:38.740 her PPS

00:58:40.260 Peter Morrison

00:58:40.940 who was

00:58:41.500 in that

00:58:41.880 position

00:58:42.200 when she

00:58:43.060 when she

00:58:44.140 lost

00:58:44.420 office

00:58:44.880 well he

00:58:46.320 was not

00:58:46.580 only gay

00:58:47.000 it turns

00:58:47.340 out he

00:58:47.520 was a

00:58:47.720 paedophile

00:58:48.120 she

00:58:48.420 wouldn't

00:58:48.640 have

00:58:48.760 known

00:58:48.920 that

00:58:49.260 but

00:58:49.880 she had

00:58:50.840 no

00:58:51.060 problem

00:58:51.380 she was

00:58:51.820 one of

00:58:52.080 the few

00:58:52.420 conservatives

00:58:52.920 in 1967

00:58:53.940 to vote

00:58:54.720 for the

00:58:55.040 legalization

00:58:55.700 of homosexuality

00:58:56.800 she had

00:58:58.040 very liberal

00:58:58.440 views on

00:58:58.820 abortion

00:58:59.280 yet again

00:59:00.500 people imagine

00:59:01.240 she was a

00:59:01.820 real social

00:59:02.780 conservative

00:59:03.460 she's

00:59:04.060 more

00:59:04.780 kind of

00:59:05.220 classical

00:59:05.660 liberal

00:59:06.040 based on

00:59:06.540 the way

00:59:06.820 you're

00:59:06.980 describing

00:59:07.300 that's

00:59:08.140 really

00:59:08.340 interesting

00:59:08.800 that's

00:59:09.380 why

00:59:09.580 I mean

00:59:10.020 I describe

00:59:10.500 myself

00:59:10.920 as a

00:59:11.640 social

00:59:11.920 liberal

00:59:12.360 fiscal

00:59:13.120 conservative

00:59:13.720 but the

00:59:15.420 way that

00:59:16.120 I mean

00:59:16.460 particularly

00:59:16.720 social media

00:59:17.520 is acting

00:59:18.940 at the

00:59:19.220 moment

00:59:19.560 I mean

00:59:20.080 I'm

00:59:20.340 considered

00:59:20.700 a

00:59:20.920 dripping

00:59:21.160 wet

00:59:21.600 you are

00:59:22.560 you are

00:59:23.800 you mean

00:59:24.360 I'm

00:59:25.180 considered

00:59:25.680 no no

00:59:26.460 you are

00:59:26.860 a wet

00:59:27.140 even I

00:59:28.140 consider

00:59:28.540 you wet

00:59:29.080 I'm not

00:59:29.600 a wet

00:59:29.980 I'm not

00:59:30.560 even on

00:59:30.960 the right

00:59:31.320 and you're

00:59:31.720 way to

00:59:32.100 the left

00:59:32.400 of me

00:59:32.840 well

00:59:33.740 on social

00:59:34.600 issues

00:59:35.480 yes I

00:59:35.940 am

00:59:36.120 on immigration

00:59:36.680 I would

00:59:36.980 agree with

00:59:37.340 that

00:59:37.420 on immigration

00:59:38.000 I am

00:59:38.420 you're

00:59:38.920 right

00:59:39.140 but

00:59:40.880 again

00:59:42.320 I am

00:59:43.340 as

00:59:43.680 thatcherite

00:59:44.240 as I

00:59:44.580 ever was

00:59:45.160 and in

00:59:45.680 the 1980s

00:59:46.920 I would

00:59:47.300 have been

00:59:47.540 considered

00:59:48.080 not on the

00:59:49.200 far right

00:59:49.700 but on the

00:59:50.200 definite

00:59:50.760 right

00:59:51.260 whereas

00:59:51.940 nowadays

00:59:52.400 I'm seen

00:59:53.600 by many

00:59:54.100 people who

00:59:54.640 consider

00:59:55.500 themselves

00:59:56.120 on the

00:59:56.660 hard

00:59:56.900 right

00:59:57.220 as a

00:59:58.580 dripping

00:59:58.840 wet

00:59:59.360 liberal

00:59:59.880 and that's

01:00:00.580 because of

01:00:01.440 my opinion

01:00:02.440 is

01:00:02.760 because the

01:00:04.220 cultural issues

01:00:05.220 are primal

01:00:06.460 now

01:00:06.740 they're much

01:00:07.260 more important

01:00:07.860 in many

01:00:08.320 people's eyes

01:00:08.780 particularly on

01:00:09.460 the right

01:00:09.820 but actually

01:00:10.600 with illegal

01:00:11.160 immigration

01:00:11.640 across the

01:00:12.200 political

01:00:12.520 spectrum

01:00:12.960 as you

01:00:13.300 know

01:00:13.520 those are

01:00:14.380 the issues

01:00:14.760 that people

01:00:15.160 care most

01:00:15.660 passionately

01:00:16.340 about

01:00:16.600 now of course

01:00:17.120 the economy

01:00:18.000 is very

01:00:18.440 important

01:00:18.900 but that

01:00:20.560 is a

01:00:21.120 secondary issue

01:00:21.900 in terms of

01:00:22.360 the way

01:00:22.540 people think

01:00:23.120 now

01:00:23.400 and so

01:00:23.780 the fact

01:00:24.500 that you

01:00:24.840 are socially

01:00:25.380 liberal

01:00:25.820 on cultural

01:00:26.840 matters

01:00:27.360 therefore makes

01:00:28.680 you aware

01:00:29.220 because we

01:00:30.360 don't get

01:00:30.780 to the

01:00:31.060 other stuff

01:00:31.560 really

01:00:32.000 a wet

01:00:32.560 now means

01:00:33.120 something

01:00:33.400 different

01:00:33.800 from the

01:00:34.140 1980s

01:00:34.880 because a

01:00:35.280 wet

01:00:35.500 in the

01:00:35.740 1980s

01:00:36.320 would have

01:00:36.600 meant a

01:00:37.040 sort of

01:00:37.400 left-wing

01:00:38.100 conservative

01:00:38.720 yeah

01:00:39.140 I think

01:00:41.000 nowadays

01:00:41.440 you have to

01:00:42.080 draw a

01:00:42.380 distinction

01:00:42.740 between a

01:00:43.300 capital C

01:00:43.860 conservative

01:00:44.380 and a

01:00:44.780 small c

01:00:45.180 conservative

01:00:45.680 I remain

01:00:46.720 a capital C

01:00:47.500 conservative

01:00:48.040 and I

01:00:48.780 remain a

01:00:49.200 small c

01:00:49.640 conservative

01:00:50.100 on economics

01:00:50.920 but not

01:00:52.080 necessarily

01:00:52.620 on

01:00:52.940 yeah

01:00:53.600 and

01:00:54.580 this is

01:00:56.180 an interesting

01:00:56.560 question

01:00:56.900 again one

01:00:57.320 I'm sure

01:00:57.600 you can't

01:00:58.020 answer

01:00:58.280 with any

01:00:58.720 definitiveness

01:00:59.540 but I

01:01:00.780 sort of see

01:01:01.300 Nigel Farage

01:01:02.080 as coming

01:01:02.560 from the

01:01:03.000 Thatcherite

01:01:03.520 tradition

01:01:04.040 really

01:01:04.840 is that

01:01:05.520 a fair

01:01:05.840 observation

01:01:06.460 yes it

01:01:07.060 is

01:01:07.400 and

01:01:07.960 Nigel

01:01:08.660 I also

01:01:09.400 don't

01:01:09.800 think

01:01:10.140 on some

01:01:10.920 cultural

01:01:11.560 issues

01:01:12.100 is as

01:01:12.740 right-wing

01:01:13.120 as he

01:01:13.600 sometimes

01:01:15.240 claims

01:01:15.800 he was

01:01:18.060 a great

01:01:18.400 Thatcher

01:01:18.760 admirer

01:01:19.280 in the

01:01:19.560 1980s

01:01:20.400 it was

01:01:20.620 only in

01:01:21.040 I think

01:01:21.340 was it

01:01:21.600 1992

01:01:22.100 when he

01:01:23.160 he

01:01:24.180 foresaw

01:01:25.300 where the

01:01:25.880 European

01:01:26.140 Union

01:01:26.780 was heading

01:01:27.380 and left

01:01:28.760 the

01:01:28.920 conservative

01:01:29.340 party

01:01:29.820 so I

01:01:30.340 think

01:01:30.580 he is

01:01:31.000 he is

01:01:32.000 a child

01:01:32.620 of

01:01:32.800 Thatcher

01:01:33.160 in many

01:01:33.960 ways

01:01:34.460 in the

01:01:35.180 same way

01:01:35.500 that I

01:01:35.740 would consider

01:01:36.140 myself

01:01:36.520 a child

01:01:36.920 of

01:01:37.340 Thatcher

01:01:37.740 I mean

01:01:40.320 on

01:01:40.760 sort of

01:01:41.660 gay issues

01:01:42.140 for example

01:01:42.600 I remember

01:01:43.060 when

01:01:43.400 equal

01:01:43.780 marriage

01:01:44.160 was being

01:01:44.680 discussed

01:01:45.140 in 2012

01:01:46.060 or whatever

01:01:46.740 he rang

01:01:47.420 me up

01:01:47.820 and he

01:01:48.020 said

01:01:48.160 what do

01:01:48.500 you think

01:01:48.780 of this

01:01:49.160 I'm trying

01:01:50.120 to make

01:01:50.440 up my

01:01:50.680 mind

01:01:50.920 what I

01:01:51.220 think

01:01:51.420 about it

01:01:51.920 and so

01:01:52.900 I sort

01:01:53.640 of gave

01:01:53.940 him

01:01:54.220 the benefit

01:01:54.900 of my

01:01:55.280 views

01:01:55.620 and then

01:01:55.920 he went

01:01:56.200 in the

01:01:56.420 opposite

01:01:56.660 direction

01:01:57.240 but I've

01:01:58.500 never

01:01:58.700 seen

01:01:59.000 people

01:01:59.360 think

01:01:59.700 of

01:01:59.820 Nigel

01:02:00.140 Farage

01:02:00.520 as

01:02:00.680 somehow

01:02:00.980 sort

01:02:01.280 of

01:02:01.420 bigoted

01:02:01.920 and I've

01:02:02.760 never

01:02:03.440 seen

01:02:04.320 that

01:02:04.540 at

01:02:04.920 all

01:02:05.320 and I

01:02:06.000 don't

01:02:06.140 think

01:02:06.300 she

01:02:06.500 was

01:02:06.780 either

01:02:07.140 but it

01:02:07.680 speaks

01:02:07.940 to

01:02:08.100 your

01:02:08.240 point

01:02:08.560 which

01:02:08.820 is

01:02:09.080 if

01:02:09.680 Margaret

01:02:10.400 Thatcher

01:02:15.140 tens

01:02:15.500 of

01:02:15.680 thousands

01:02:16.000 of

01:02:16.280 people

01:02:16.520 from

01:02:16.760 other

01:02:16.960 countries

01:02:17.280 are

01:02:17.440 coming

01:02:17.660 here

01:02:17.900 illegally

01:02:18.340 you

01:02:18.920 said

01:02:19.200 yourself

01:02:19.560 she

01:02:19.780 would

01:02:19.960 have

01:02:20.060 been

01:02:20.200 way

01:02:20.440 harder

01:02:20.780 line

01:02:21.100 than

01:02:21.280 what's

01:02:21.580 happening

01:02:21.860 now

01:02:22.240 and that's

01:02:22.960 where Nigel's

01:02:23.560 at

01:02:23.720 to be fair

01:02:24.360 to myself

01:02:24.860 so would

01:02:25.280 I

01:02:25.540 I hold

01:02:27.860 no candle

01:02:28.480 for illegal

01:02:29.120 immigration

01:02:29.620 at all

01:02:30.300 I believe

01:02:30.760 that all

01:02:31.160 nation states

01:02:31.860 need to

01:02:32.300 control

01:02:32.580 their

01:02:32.780 borders

01:02:33.100 and I

01:02:33.980 don't

01:02:34.180 see

01:02:34.320 why

01:02:34.480 that

01:02:34.640 should

01:02:34.780 be

01:02:34.880 a

01:02:34.980 controversial

01:02:35.340 statement

01:02:35.860 I think

01:02:36.220 most people

01:02:36.640 on the

01:02:36.860 left

01:02:37.080 believe

01:02:37.840 that

01:02:38.280 most

01:02:38.820 not all

01:02:39.280 but most

01:02:39.760 do

01:02:39.960 I mean

01:02:40.660 you

01:02:41.160 cannot

01:02:41.520 have

01:02:42.020 open

01:02:42.460 borders

01:02:42.880 particularly

01:02:43.420 when

01:02:43.760 you're

01:02:43.920 I mean

01:02:44.600 in Australia

01:02:45.340 you could

01:02:45.960 argue

01:02:46.340 it's such

01:02:46.700 a massive

01:02:47.100 country

01:02:47.740 that would

01:02:48.640 it really

01:02:49.280 make that

01:02:49.680 much

01:02:49.900 difference

01:02:50.060 it would

01:02:50.340 it is

01:02:50.980 uninhabitable

01:02:51.640 that is

01:02:52.680 true

01:02:52.920 but most

01:02:54.400 I mean

01:02:54.840 in Britain

01:02:55.840 a country

01:02:56.480 the size

01:02:56.980 of us

01:02:57.180 with a

01:02:57.560 landmass

01:02:58.080 that is

01:02:58.420 only half

01:02:58.900 the size

01:02:59.340 of France

01:02:59.900 and yet

01:03:00.200 we have

01:03:00.360 the same

01:03:00.640 population

01:03:01.180 I mean

01:03:02.020 I do

01:03:02.360 I do

01:03:03.340 react

01:03:03.680 when people

01:03:04.020 say

01:03:04.120 we're

01:03:04.380 full up

01:03:04.800 Ian

01:03:05.040 well

01:03:05.500 we're

01:03:05.660 not

01:03:05.800 full up

01:03:06.300 clearly

01:03:06.820 I mean

01:03:07.340 7%

01:03:08.720 of our

01:03:09.120 landmass

01:03:09.520 is built

01:03:09.920 on

01:03:10.140 so

01:03:10.400 it's

01:03:11.500 a facile

01:03:11.940 argument

01:03:12.520 to say

01:03:12.980 that

01:03:13.280 but you

01:03:14.140 cannot

01:03:14.540 accept

01:03:15.120 everybody

01:03:15.600 that wants

01:03:16.020 to come

01:03:16.380 here

01:03:16.680 so I

01:03:17.480 absolutely

01:03:18.280 believe

01:03:18.740 that we

01:03:19.000 have to

01:03:19.280 have rules

01:03:19.840 and regulations

01:03:20.480 it's just

01:03:21.140 how you

01:03:21.580 pitch them

01:03:22.140 and

01:03:23.200 I think

01:03:24.760 anybody

01:03:25.240 that crosses

01:03:25.980 the channel

01:03:26.580 illegally

01:03:27.160 and it

01:03:27.620 is illegal

01:03:28.160 people keep

01:03:28.660 saying

01:03:28.800 there's

01:03:29.120 nothing

01:03:29.380 there's

01:03:30.200 no such

01:03:30.760 thing

01:03:30.960 as illegal

01:03:31.460 immigrants

01:03:32.060 well there

01:03:32.920 is

01:03:33.380 I mean

01:03:34.180 of course

01:03:34.620 you can

01:03:34.880 claim

01:03:35.100 asylum

01:03:35.540 but if

01:03:36.400 you've

01:03:36.680 crossed

01:03:37.040 the channel

01:03:38.000 in a

01:03:39.200 dinghy

01:03:39.600 that is

01:03:40.120 an illegal

01:03:40.580 act

01:03:41.160 of course

01:03:42.140 and therefore

01:03:43.340 instead of

01:03:44.760 being put

01:03:45.380 in hotels

01:03:46.020 when you

01:03:46.420 get to

01:03:46.720 this country

01:03:47.260 there's

01:03:47.600 got to

01:03:47.740 be some

01:03:48.000 sort of

01:03:48.300 deterrent

01:03:48.820 there

01:03:49.220 yeah you

01:03:50.240 should be

01:03:50.460 deported

01:03:50.840 yeah exactly

01:03:51.960 and I think

01:03:53.000 the home

01:03:53.500 office

01:03:53.940 what did

01:03:55.080 somebody tell

01:03:55.680 me last

01:03:56.040 night on

01:03:56.300 my radio

01:03:56.760 show

01:03:57.120 that once

01:03:58.640 people actually

01:03:59.320 get here

01:04:00.080 they aren't

01:04:01.180 even contacted

01:04:02.080 either by

01:04:02.920 the home

01:04:03.640 office or

01:04:04.360 the police

01:04:05.000 for maybe

01:04:06.160 years

01:04:06.760 and you

01:04:07.720 think well

01:04:08.160 the argument

01:04:09.800 that well

01:04:10.460 we're importing

01:04:11.820 terrorists all

01:04:12.560 the time

01:04:12.900 and I think

01:04:13.280 that can be

01:04:13.840 an exaggerated

01:04:14.600 argument

01:04:15.120 but even

01:04:15.800 if only

01:04:16.240 one in

01:04:16.680 a hundred

01:04:17.120 is a

01:04:17.880 potential

01:04:18.240 terrorist

01:04:18.800 we kind

01:04:19.500 of need

01:04:19.740 to root

01:04:20.040 them out

01:04:20.540 of course

01:04:21.380 but none

01:04:22.180 of them

01:04:22.400 should be

01:04:22.700 here

01:04:23.060 none of

01:04:24.140 them should

01:04:24.380 be here

01:04:24.760 I'm completely

01:04:25.480 with you

01:04:25.920 on that

01:04:26.420 but I

01:04:27.520 mean where

01:04:27.840 I think

01:04:28.120 we differ

01:04:28.660 is on

01:04:29.300 legal

01:04:30.040 migration

01:04:30.760 in what

01:04:31.940 way

01:04:32.220 do you

01:04:32.740 think we

01:04:33.000 differ

01:04:33.220 in that

01:04:33.860 it doesn't

01:04:36.060 bother me

01:04:36.820 I mean

01:04:37.360 when I was

01:04:38.660 doing a

01:04:39.200 podcast

01:04:39.460 recently

01:04:40.100 the host

01:04:41.660 was sort

01:04:42.700 of talking

01:04:43.100 about

01:04:43.400 well he

01:04:43.920 whenever he

01:04:45.760 goes out

01:04:46.120 of his

01:04:46.320 front door

01:04:46.700 now all

01:04:47.060 he hears

01:04:47.520 is foreign

01:04:47.980 accents

01:04:48.400 and I'm

01:04:49.900 thinking

01:04:50.180 yeah

01:04:50.960 okay

01:04:51.740 foreign

01:04:51.980 accents

01:04:52.280 or foreign

01:04:52.580 languages

01:04:52.960 because it's

01:04:53.560 an important

01:04:54.040 difference

01:04:54.280 that's a big

01:04:55.620 difference

01:04:56.060 well it is a

01:04:56.680 big difference

01:04:57.260 and I say

01:04:57.980 that as someone

01:04:58.460 who speaks

01:04:59.000 a foreign

01:04:59.380 language

01:04:59.780 the reason

01:05:00.660 is that

01:05:01.460 when people

01:05:01.900 don't speak

01:05:02.420 the same

01:05:02.760 language

01:05:03.160 in the same

01:05:03.720 space

01:05:04.140 it automatically

01:05:05.180 creates

01:05:05.740 distance

01:05:06.180 but that

01:05:06.700 doesn't

01:05:06.940 necessarily

01:05:07.340 mean

01:05:07.620 that they

01:05:07.860 can't

01:05:08.180 speak

01:05:08.360 the

01:05:08.500 language

01:05:08.760 but they

01:05:09.040 might be

01:05:09.360 speaking

01:05:09.640 to one

01:05:09.940 of their

01:05:10.160 friends

01:05:10.440 who's

01:05:10.680 from the

01:05:10.940 same

01:05:11.160 place

01:05:11.520 and I

01:05:12.100 find that

01:05:12.480 fascinating

01:05:13.020 I mean

01:05:13.360 I want to

01:05:14.280 know where

01:05:14.580 they come

01:05:14.900 from

01:05:15.140 I am not

01:05:16.960 triggered by

01:05:17.520 people speaking

01:05:18.200 foreign languages

01:05:18.640 but some

01:05:19.080 people are

01:05:19.680 I know

01:05:19.980 but you said

01:05:20.440 we differ

01:05:20.960 no I think

01:05:22.640 we differ

01:05:23.200 on the level

01:05:23.920 of legal

01:05:25.540 migration

01:05:26.140 okay

01:05:26.660 in that I

01:05:27.580 think

01:05:28.020 if the

01:05:28.980 economy

01:05:29.460 the level

01:05:30.940 of legal

01:05:31.320 migration

01:05:32.120 has traditionally

01:05:32.740 always been

01:05:33.280 determined

01:05:33.720 by economic

01:05:34.740 need

01:05:35.160 and I have

01:05:36.340 absolutely no

01:05:36.940 problem if a

01:05:37.680 particular sector

01:05:38.540 if they can't

01:05:39.540 find the

01:05:40.220 workers in this

01:05:41.000 country who've

01:05:41.420 got the skills

01:05:42.100 or even with

01:05:43.160 no skills

01:05:43.700 to do the

01:05:44.200 jobs

01:05:44.460 I have no

01:05:45.120 problem with

01:05:45.620 importing them

01:05:46.180 from elsewhere

01:05:46.680 we don't differ

01:05:47.260 on that

01:05:48.100 where do we

01:05:48.600 differ

01:05:48.800 I think

01:05:49.440 where we

01:05:49.800 differ

01:05:50.040 is that

01:05:50.640 your

01:05:51.200 understanding

01:05:51.740 of economic

01:05:52.440 need is very

01:05:53.000 different from

01:05:53.500 mine

01:05:53.800 what has been

01:05:54.620 happening

01:05:55.020 for since

01:05:56.560 not 1997

01:05:58.420 but since the

01:05:59.520 Blair government

01:06:00.100 effectively is

01:06:00.940 the mass

01:06:01.640 importation of

01:06:02.480 low-skill

01:06:03.200 low-wage

01:06:03.840 workers

01:06:04.300 we agree on

01:06:04.780 that

01:06:05.020 right

01:06:05.420 who are

01:06:06.280 who are

01:06:07.640 boosting GDP

01:06:08.620 but they're not

01:06:09.640 boosting GDP

01:06:10.420 per capita

01:06:11.040 at all

01:06:11.540 in other words

01:06:12.040 we as a

01:06:12.580 country are

01:06:13.020 becoming poorer

01:06:13.840 not wealthier

01:06:14.580 and if you

01:06:14.960 speak to

01:06:15.460 perfectly

01:06:16.580 decent

01:06:17.120 not xenophobic

01:06:18.660 not prejudiced

01:06:19.420 people who

01:06:19.900 work in the

01:06:20.840 trades for

01:06:21.600 example during

01:06:22.280 the 2000s

01:06:23.200 and afterwards

01:06:23.780 you know the

01:06:24.420 sparkies and

01:06:25.140 all the kind

01:06:26.600 of people who

01:06:27.300 work with their

01:06:27.800 hands

01:06:28.100 they'd say I've

01:06:28.920 got no problem

01:06:29.360 with Polish

01:06:29.720 people but

01:06:30.600 when they come

01:06:31.280 and work for

01:06:31.880 less and maybe

01:06:32.580 a little bit

01:06:33.040 harder

01:06:33.340 that causes

01:06:36.300 our wages

01:06:37.160 and our

01:06:37.540 quality of life

01:06:38.200 to go down

01:06:38.600 I agree with

01:06:39.160 all of that

01:06:39.620 yeah I don't

01:06:40.260 think we differ

01:06:40.940 but where I

01:06:41.800 differ with you

01:06:42.560 from what I

01:06:43.300 can see

01:06:43.780 is the

01:06:44.940 your concern

01:06:46.020 you mentioned

01:06:46.840 like Keir Starmer's

01:06:47.760 speech

01:06:48.180 all the media

01:06:49.360 commentary had a

01:06:50.280 massive meltdown

01:06:51.040 as if he was

01:06:51.520 some Enoch Powell

01:06:52.360 figure

01:06:52.780 because what did

01:06:54.080 he say we're

01:06:54.520 becoming an

01:06:55.020 island of

01:06:55.420 strangers

01:06:55.740 Ian I have to

01:06:57.200 tell you

01:06:57.640 there are

01:06:58.300 millions of

01:06:58.880 people in

01:06:59.300 this country

01:06:59.760 who feel

01:07:00.300 that way

01:07:00.760 because the

01:07:01.680 city in

01:07:02.180 which they

01:07:02.500 live and

01:07:02.780 it's mostly

01:07:03.180 a city

01:07:03.500 problem

01:07:03.880 has become

01:07:04.920 completely

01:07:05.400 transformed

01:07:05.940 within one

01:07:07.300 generation

01:07:07.640 but isn't it

01:07:08.100 interesting that

01:07:08.780 the people who

01:07:09.360 are most

01:07:09.780 concerned about

01:07:10.400 immigration

01:07:10.900 tend to live

01:07:11.680 in areas where

01:07:12.280 there are no

01:07:12.700 immigrants or

01:07:13.260 very few

01:07:13.760 immigrants

01:07:14.240 I don't

01:07:15.600 think that

01:07:15.960 I think

01:07:16.520 it's a

01:07:17.100 talking point

01:07:17.860 that people

01:07:18.200 in the media

01:07:18.560 like to use

01:07:19.140 but I can

01:07:19.680 explain to you

01:07:20.240 why that

01:07:20.640 makes perfect

01:07:21.660 sense

01:07:22.020 people who

01:07:22.740 live in the

01:07:23.600 country

01:07:23.960 let's say

01:07:24.860 and don't

01:07:25.320 live in a

01:07:25.680 big city

01:07:26.120 they come to

01:07:26.880 the city

01:07:27.260 every now and

01:07:27.820 again

01:07:28.020 and they

01:07:28.560 got in the

01:07:29.380 same way

01:07:29.680 that my

01:07:30.100 Russian or

01:07:31.000 Ukrainian

01:07:31.280 relatives

01:07:31.720 come to

01:07:32.120 Britain

01:07:32.360 once every

01:07:32.880 10 years

01:07:33.400 and they

01:07:34.260 are shocked

01:07:34.680 by what

01:07:35.080 they see

01:07:35.500 they are

01:07:36.140 shocked to

01:07:36.560 see a

01:07:36.860 country

01:07:37.140 that they

01:07:37.620 thought

01:07:37.940 looked

01:07:38.500 one way

01:07:39.200 look a

01:07:39.800 completely

01:07:40.100 different

01:07:40.340 way

01:07:40.620 white

01:07:41.100 among

01:07:42.440 other

01:07:42.740 things

01:07:43.020 yeah

01:07:43.220 absolutely

01:07:43.740 absolutely

01:07:44.640 but whiteness

01:07:45.840 is it's not

01:07:46.600 that they

01:07:46.960 think whiteness

01:07:48.100 is important

01:07:48.700 whiteness is a

01:07:49.540 proxy

01:07:49.840 I think they do

01:07:50.580 think that

01:07:51.000 that's the

01:07:51.380 that is where

01:07:52.780 we differ

01:07:53.220 I think a lot

01:07:55.040 of people

01:07:55.620 find it a

01:07:56.840 problem

01:07:57.320 that

01:07:58.120 they define

01:07:59.140 immigrants

01:07:59.580 as people

01:07:59.960 who aren't

01:08:00.320 white

01:08:00.540 I mean

01:08:00.780 European

01:08:01.120 immigrants

01:08:01.560 they don't

01:08:02.240 necessarily

01:08:02.620 care about

01:08:03.740 but I

01:08:04.580 think it

01:08:05.220 does in

01:08:06.460 the end

01:08:06.920 go back

01:08:07.700 to the

01:08:07.980 colour

01:08:08.180 of people's

01:08:08.840 skin

01:08:09.140 and that

01:08:10.000 is where

01:08:10.680 I have a

01:08:11.440 real problem

01:08:12.060 with the

01:08:12.440 language

01:08:12.960 that some

01:08:13.740 politicians

01:08:14.220 use

01:08:14.580 Robert

01:08:14.840 Jenrick

01:08:15.240 for example

01:08:15.640 I called

01:08:16.220 him out

01:08:16.660 last year

01:08:18.260 I can't

01:08:18.600 remember

01:08:18.800 exactly

01:08:19.140 what he

01:08:19.500 said

01:08:19.840 but he

01:08:20.360 was using

01:08:20.860 sub

01:08:21.220 Tommy

01:08:21.500 Robinson

01:08:21.940 type

01:08:22.380 language

01:08:22.900 such as

01:08:23.520 well

01:08:24.260 again

01:08:24.680 I could

01:08:25.820 go back

01:08:26.300 and look

01:08:26.640 at what

01:08:26.960 I wrote

01:08:27.280 about it

01:08:27.680 at the

01:08:27.920 time

01:08:28.240 but

01:08:30.260 language

01:08:31.520 has

01:08:31.840 consequences

01:08:32.600 and

01:08:34.120 if you

01:08:35.540 remember

01:08:35.800 when Boris

01:08:36.280 Johnson

01:08:36.580 made his

01:08:37.040 comments

01:08:37.360 about

01:08:37.900 Muslim

01:08:38.760 women

01:08:39.000 wearing

01:08:39.260 a

01:08:39.360 niqab

01:08:39.720 looking

01:08:39.960 like

01:08:40.140 letterboxes

01:08:40.800 he didn't

01:08:41.260 mean that

01:08:41.560 in a

01:08:42.220 malevolent

01:08:42.860 way

01:08:43.360 it was

01:08:44.060 a sort

01:08:44.320 of

01:08:44.440 jokey

01:08:44.840 reference

01:08:45.440 but I

01:08:46.300 know

01:08:46.740 because I

01:08:47.660 had

01:08:47.820 Muslim

01:08:48.400 women

01:08:48.640 ringing

01:08:48.960 me

01:08:49.160 up

01:08:49.320 the

01:08:49.440 next

01:08:49.660 day

01:08:49.980 that

01:08:50.220 they

01:08:50.440 were

01:08:50.660 attacked

01:08:51.100 on

01:08:51.300 streets

01:08:51.760 because

01:08:52.280 they

01:08:52.900 by using

01:08:53.580 that kind

01:08:54.140 of

01:08:54.400 simile

01:08:55.240 or metaphor

01:08:56.360 Boris

01:08:58.200 had effectively

01:08:59.080 given license

01:08:59.860 to people

01:09:00.860 to say

01:09:01.660 things

01:09:02.160 or even

01:09:02.580 do

01:09:02.880 things

01:09:03.400 which they

01:09:04.600 might not

01:09:04.920 have done

01:09:05.200 before

01:09:05.680 and when

01:09:06.440 Robert

01:09:06.680 Jenrick

01:09:07.060 made

01:09:07.520 a couple

01:09:08.560 of

01:09:08.760 incendiary

01:09:09.560 remarks

01:09:09.980 last year

01:09:10.720 he was

01:09:11.340 doing

01:09:11.580 exactly

01:09:12.020 the same

01:09:12.500 thing

01:09:12.740 I think

01:09:13.080 he meant

01:09:13.500 to do

01:09:13.820 it

01:09:14.020 he was

01:09:15.200 appealing

01:09:15.640 to

01:09:16.480 the

01:09:17.880 basic

01:09:18.380 instincts

01:09:18.900 of

01:09:19.080 people

01:09:19.420 that

01:09:19.820 a

01:09:20.020 leading

01:09:20.240 conservative

01:09:20.720 politician

01:09:21.220 shouldn't

01:09:21.620 be

01:09:21.740 appealing

01:09:22.060 to

01:09:22.300 in

01:09:22.600 my

01:09:22.840 view

01:09:23.120 well

01:09:23.300 I

01:09:23.420 don't

01:09:23.560 know

01:09:23.660 the

01:09:23.780 incident

01:09:24.060 you're

01:09:24.320 talking

01:09:24.560 about

01:09:24.780 if we

01:09:25.040 come back

01:09:25.480 to the

01:09:25.740 thing

01:09:25.940 that you

01:09:26.340 and I

01:09:26.560 were

01:09:26.680 discussing

01:09:27.120 I

01:09:27.680 think

01:09:27.980 that

01:09:28.280 of course

01:09:29.680 a

01:09:30.160 foreign

01:09:30.760 visitor

01:09:31.180 like

01:09:31.460 someone

01:09:31.720 from

01:09:31.940 my

01:09:32.120 family

01:09:32.500 what

01:09:32.860 they

01:09:33.100 react

01:09:33.580 to

01:09:33.760 is

01:09:33.980 the

01:09:34.160 visual

01:09:34.560 change

01:09:35.100 that

01:09:35.520 does

01:09:35.680 not

01:09:35.900 mean

01:09:36.100 that

01:09:36.280 they

01:09:36.420 think

01:09:36.660 whiteness

01:09:37.340 is

01:09:37.580 in itself

01:09:38.120 some

01:09:38.360 kind

01:09:38.600 important

01:09:39.020 thing

01:09:39.340 it's

01:09:39.760 just

01:09:39.900 the

01:09:40.100 easiest

01:09:40.480 way

01:09:40.860 to

01:09:41.040 see

01:09:41.280 that

01:09:41.480 people

01:09:41.820 that

01:09:42.440 the

01:09:42.700 country

01:09:43.020 has

01:09:43.280 changed

01:09:43.740 that's

01:09:44.140 all

01:09:44.260 that

01:09:44.400 they

01:09:44.540 mean

01:09:44.740 right

01:09:44.920 so

01:09:45.060 if

01:09:45.180 you

01:09:45.260 had

01:09:45.400 a

01:09:45.520 bunch

01:09:45.700 of

01:09:45.840 white

01:09:46.060 people

01:09:46.320 walking

01:09:46.640 around

01:09:46.920 in

01:09:47.100 burqas

01:09:47.540 that

01:09:48.100 would

01:09:48.300 be

01:09:48.440 just

01:09:48.720 as

01:09:48.880 shocking

01:09:49.160 to

01:09:49.380 them

01:09:49.660 as

01:09:50.220 a

01:09:50.340 bunch

01:09:50.580 of

01:09:50.900 non-white

01:09:51.620 people

01:09:51.900 who

01:09:52.040 are

01:09:52.140 not

01:09:52.280 wearing

01:09:52.500 burqas

01:09:52.860 it

01:09:53.100 is

01:09:53.340 a

01:09:53.640 signifier

01:09:54.420 not

01:09:54.700 entirely

01:09:55.220 accurate

01:09:56.160 for

01:09:56.920 cultural

01:09:57.600 change

01:09:58.060 in

01:09:58.200 society

01:09:58.680 so

01:09:59.500 I

01:09:59.980 think

01:10:00.240 that

01:10:00.460 sometimes

01:10:08.600 really

01:10:08.960 what

01:10:09.180 I

01:10:09.320 think

01:10:09.540 it

01:10:09.680 is

01:10:09.920 a

01:10:10.520 sense

01:10:10.800 that

01:10:11.100 society

01:10:12.080 is

01:10:12.300 changing

01:10:12.780 quickly

01:10:13.260 many

01:10:14.320 people

01:10:14.740 find

01:10:15.140 themselves

01:10:15.480 now

01:10:15.700 living

01:10:16.020 in

01:10:16.180 a

01:10:16.300 city

01:10:16.560 which

01:10:16.820 is

01:10:17.260 not

01:10:17.500 the

01:10:17.700 city

01:10:17.940 that

01:10:18.120 they

01:10:18.260 grew

01:10:18.420 up

01:10:18.580 in

01:10:18.680 now

01:10:18.840 look

01:10:19.000 that's

01:10:19.220 part

01:10:19.420 of

01:10:19.520 history

01:10:19.840 you

01:10:20.240 have

01:10:20.800 to

01:10:20.980 accept

01:10:21.340 things

01:10:21.840 change

01:10:22.360 but

01:10:22.960 it

01:10:23.100 has

01:10:23.360 been

01:10:23.560 very

01:10:24.140 very

01:10:24.640 very

01:10:25.080 quick

01:10:25.520 and

01:10:26.280 I

01:10:26.520 understand

01:10:26.880 people

01:10:27.280 being

01:10:27.700 concerned

01:10:28.000 I

01:10:28.180 mean

01:10:28.320 you

01:10:28.660 know

01:10:28.840 this

01:10:29.100 as

01:10:29.380 well

01:10:29.500 as

01:10:29.640 I

01:10:29.760 do

01:10:29.880 more

01:10:30.080 people

01:10:30.360 have

01:10:30.540 come

01:10:30.700 into

01:10:30.880 this

01:10:31.080 country

01:10:31.480 just

01:10:33.140 under

01:10:33.400 the

01:10:33.540 Blair

01:10:33.680 government

01:10:33.980 alone

01:10:34.360 came

01:10:34.720 between

01:10:35.060 1066

01:10:35.860 and

01:10:36.380 1950

01:10:37.000 more

01:10:38.520 people

01:10:38.840 under

01:10:39.340 13

01:10:39.860 years

01:10:40.180 14

01:10:40.640 years

01:10:40.880 of

01:10:40.980 a

01:10:41.060 Blair

01:10:41.200 government

01:10:41.460 and

01:10:42.660 then

01:10:42.880 even

01:10:43.460 more

01:10:43.760 so

01:10:43.960 under

01:10:44.160 the

01:10:44.340 Tories

01:10:44.640 it's

01:10:45.220 completely

01:10:45.620 unprecedented

01:10:46.380 that's

01:10:47.300 what

01:10:47.440 people

01:10:47.660 are

01:10:47.840 concerned

01:10:48.200 about

01:10:48.520 the

01:10:48.920 scale

01:10:49.360 and

01:10:49.580 the

01:10:49.720 pace

01:10:49.980 of

01:10:50.120 the

01:10:50.240 change

01:10:50.560 and

01:10:51.120 then

01:10:51.300 the

01:10:51.500 impact

01:10:51.900 that

01:10:52.140 has

01:10:52.500 on

01:10:52.780 the

01:10:52.920 communities

01:10:53.400 that

01:10:53.620 people

01:10:53.840 grew

01:10:54.060 up

01:10:54.220 in

01:10:54.360 and

01:10:54.700 I

01:10:54.900 think

01:10:55.080 it's

01:10:55.200 a

01:10:55.320 perfectly

01:10:55.580 reasonable

01:10:56.040 thing

01:10:56.320 for

01:10:56.480 people

01:10:56.700 to

01:10:56.940 be

01:10:57.520 concerned

01:10:57.940 about

01:10:58.220 and

01:10:58.480 I

01:10:58.620 don't

01:10:58.900 think

01:10:59.140 conflating

01:10:59.680 it

01:10:59.860 with

01:11:00.000 racism

01:11:00.420 which

01:11:00.780 does

01:11:01.060 exist

01:11:01.540 is

01:11:02.020 helpful

01:11:02.260 I

01:11:02.340 think

01:11:02.540 I

01:11:02.940 have

01:11:03.200 no

01:11:03.380 problem

01:11:03.740 with

01:11:03.920 people

01:11:04.160 being

01:11:04.380 concerned

01:11:04.780 about

01:11:05.000 any

01:11:05.220 aspect

01:11:05.520 of

01:11:05.740 how

01:11:05.860 their

01:11:06.000 communities

01:11:06.440 develop

01:11:07.360 I

01:11:07.620 just

01:11:07.820 think

01:11:07.980 we

01:11:08.100 have

01:11:08.280 to

01:11:08.420 sometimes

01:11:08.880 watch

01:11:09.260 the way

01:11:09.580 we

01:11:09.740 talk

01:11:10.000 about

01:11:10.300 it

01:11:10.440 and

01:11:10.540 that's

01:11:10.720 not

01:11:10.840 trying

01:11:11.040 to

01:11:11.200 censor

01:11:11.620 people

01:11:11.940 it

01:11:12.700 really

01:11:12.880 isn't

01:11:13.160 it's

01:11:13.320 just

01:11:13.460 being

01:11:13.680 decent

01:11:14.100 human

01:11:14.440 beings

01:11:14.760 but

01:11:15.340 of course

01:11:15.560 you

01:11:15.700 and I

01:11:15.960 have

01:11:16.240 no

01:11:16.500 right

01:11:16.740 to

01:11:16.860 review

01:11:17.100 on

01:11:17.260 this

01:11:17.460 because

01:11:17.880 we

01:11:18.660 live

01:11:18.820 in

01:11:18.940 Tunbridge

01:11:19.180 Wells

01:11:19.460 leafy

01:11:19.920 white

01:11:20.220 Tunbridge

01:11:20.600 Wells

01:11:20.860 that

01:11:21.020 has

01:11:21.140 no

01:11:21.360 immigrants

01:11:21.720 whatsoever

01:11:22.340 that's

01:11:22.840 what

01:11:22.940 I'm

01:11:23.080 told

01:11:23.380 well

01:11:23.580 the

01:11:24.720 thing

01:11:24.920 is

01:11:25.160 Constantine

01:11:26.500 is

01:11:26.620 there

01:11:26.820 well

01:11:28.120 I'm

01:11:28.580 one

01:11:28.780 of

01:11:28.920 many

01:11:29.120 now

01:11:29.420 because

01:11:29.980 I

01:11:30.260 don't

01:11:30.360 know

01:11:30.440 if

01:11:30.540 you

01:11:30.620 noticed

01:11:30.960 but

01:11:31.200 you

01:11:31.300 live

01:11:31.480 outside

01:11:31.820 of

01:11:31.980 Tunbridge

01:11:32.200 Wells

01:11:32.340 I

01:11:32.480 live

01:11:32.660 in

01:11:32.780 the

01:11:33.100 town

01:11:33.340 itself

01:11:33.740 you

01:11:33.900 live

01:11:34.020 in

01:11:34.120 the

01:11:34.240 ghetto

01:11:34.520 I

01:11:34.860 live

01:11:35.020 in

01:11:35.140 the

01:11:35.260 ghetto

01:11:35.520 of

01:11:35.700 Tunbridge

01:11:35.980 Wells

01:11:36.260 during

01:11:37.800 COVID

01:11:38.240 a lot

01:11:38.740 of

01:11:38.840 people

01:11:39.020 from

01:11:39.320 London

01:11:39.700 moved

01:11:40.100 out

01:11:40.440 and

01:11:41.480 the

01:11:42.180 demographics

01:11:42.700 of

01:11:42.960 Tunbridge

01:11:43.220 Wells

01:11:43.400 are

01:11:43.580 changing

01:11:43.900 too

01:11:44.180 and

01:11:44.440 I

01:11:44.600 know

01:11:44.820 people

01:11:45.140 in

01:11:45.400 Tunbridge

01:11:45.700 Wells

01:11:45.960 who

01:11:46.140 just

01:11:46.400 visually

01:11:47.200 notice

01:11:47.600 it

01:11:47.720 some

01:11:48.560 of

01:11:48.740 them

01:11:48.840 are

01:11:48.920 really

01:11:49.040 unhappy

01:11:51.180 about

01:11:51.480 it

01:11:51.680 but

01:11:52.220 people

01:11:52.960 I

01:11:53.140 think

01:11:53.340 are

01:11:53.740 allowed

01:11:54.040 to

01:11:54.220 have

01:11:54.380 that

01:11:54.600 view

01:11:54.860 and

01:11:55.360 this

01:11:55.660 is

01:11:55.780 the

01:11:55.900 point

01:11:56.040 I

01:11:56.140 was

01:11:56.260 making

01:11:56.520 to

01:11:56.700 you

01:11:56.800 about

01:11:57.100 places

01:11:57.700 that

01:11:57.960 are

01:11:58.160 majority

01:11:58.800 one

01:11:59.760 culture

01:12:00.500 and

01:12:00.640 one

01:12:00.820 group

01:12:01.080 it's

01:12:01.620 more

01:12:01.860 noticeable

01:12:02.480 there

01:12:02.940 precisely

01:12:03.760 because

01:12:04.300 of

01:12:04.460 this

01:12:04.700 I

01:12:04.820 think

01:12:04.960 that

01:12:05.120 is

01:12:05.300 true

01:12:05.720 particularly

01:12:06.400 in

01:12:06.840 some

01:12:07.360 northern

01:12:08.220 and

01:12:08.500 midlands

01:12:08.940 cities

01:12:09.500 and

01:12:09.760 towns

01:12:10.120 where

01:12:11.000 I've

01:12:12.100 never

01:12:12.280 been

01:12:12.520 there

01:12:12.740 but

01:12:12.880 I'm

01:12:13.040 told

01:12:13.360 that

01:12:13.680 Burnley

01:12:14.120 for

01:12:14.340 example

01:12:14.760 a

01:12:15.540 quarter

01:12:16.000 of

01:12:16.480 the

01:12:16.640 town

01:12:17.080 is

01:12:17.920 now

01:12:18.320 almost

01:12:19.220 100%

01:12:20.080 from

01:12:20.740 a

01:12:21.280 Muslim

01:12:21.520 background

01:12:21.980 now

01:12:22.700 you

01:12:23.000 can

01:12:23.200 say

01:12:23.920 if I

01:12:25.760 was

01:12:25.960 really

01:12:26.260 woke

01:12:26.660 and

01:12:26.900 lefty

01:12:27.480 I

01:12:28.820 would

01:12:28.920 say

01:12:29.040 what's

01:12:29.320 wrong

01:12:29.480 with

01:12:29.600 that

01:12:29.820 but

01:12:31.200 I

01:12:31.320 think

01:12:31.440 there

01:12:31.580 is

01:12:31.720 something

01:12:32.000 wrong

01:12:32.240 with

01:12:32.400 that

01:12:32.560 because

01:12:32.780 you've

01:12:33.040 created

01:12:33.440 two

01:12:33.800 societies

01:12:34.440 and

01:12:34.940 it's

01:12:35.140 a

01:12:35.240 deliberate

01:12:35.620 thing

01:12:35.940 I

01:12:36.260 don't

01:12:36.420 know

01:12:36.680 whether

01:12:37.060 it's

01:12:37.380 sort

01:12:37.700 of

01:12:37.760 the

01:12:37.880 council

01:12:38.360 have

01:12:38.780 done

01:12:39.120 something

01:12:39.440 where

01:12:39.660 the

01:12:39.820 different

01:12:40.200 planning

01:12:40.540 rules

01:12:40.760 or

01:12:40.880 whatever

01:12:41.160 but

01:12:42.220 then again

01:12:44.140 in

01:12:44.420 North

01:12:44.620 London

01:12:44.980 you

01:12:45.440 have

01:12:45.820 a

01:12:46.860 Jewish

01:12:47.060 community

01:12:47.560 that

01:12:47.920 congregates

01:12:48.940 in a

01:12:49.180 particular

01:12:49.520 area

01:12:49.960 it

01:12:50.440 is a

01:12:51.000 natural

01:12:51.340 thing

01:12:51.840 for

01:12:52.100 people

01:12:52.460 from

01:12:52.740 a

01:12:52.880 particular

01:12:53.220 background

01:12:53.600 to

01:12:53.960 congregate

01:12:54.460 together

01:12:54.900 but

01:12:56.140 I

01:12:56.580 think

01:12:56.840 if

01:12:57.020 you

01:12:57.120 have

01:12:57.300 many

01:12:57.620 millions

01:12:58.180 of

01:12:58.480 people

01:13:01.720 people

01:13:01.960 are

01:13:02.100 concerned

01:13:02.380 about

01:13:02.660 there

01:13:02.780 are

01:13:02.900 areas

01:13:03.220 I

01:13:03.360 think

01:13:03.540 of

01:13:03.880 South

01:13:04.140 London

01:13:04.420 where

01:13:04.640 you've

01:13:04.840 got

01:13:04.960 a lot

01:13:05.180 of

01:13:05.400 Polish

01:13:05.700 people

01:13:06.000 living

01:13:06.160 in

01:13:06.240 the

01:13:06.340 same

01:13:06.500 area

01:13:06.680 but

01:13:09.300 that

01:13:09.940 tends

01:13:10.260 not

01:13:10.480 to

01:13:10.620 get

01:13:10.800 the

01:13:11.180 attention

01:13:12.020 that

01:13:12.820 majority

01:13:13.340 Muslim

01:13:13.720 areas

01:13:14.220 get

01:13:14.760 because

01:13:15.420 Britain

01:13:15.880 is a

01:13:16.160 historically

01:13:16.560 Christian

01:13:17.020 country

01:13:17.420 so

01:13:17.680 Christians

01:13:18.100 are

01:13:18.320 easier

01:13:18.600 to

01:13:18.820 integrate

01:13:19.320 people

01:13:20.740 from

01:13:21.660 a

01:13:21.820 Christian

01:13:22.180 country

01:13:22.680 are

01:13:22.840 going

01:13:22.960 to

01:13:23.060 have

01:13:23.280 more

01:13:23.540 similar

01:13:23.900 values

01:13:24.320 it's

01:13:24.520 going

01:13:24.620 to

01:13:24.660 be

01:13:24.780 easier

01:13:24.980 for

01:13:25.100 them

01:13:25.240 to

01:13:25.380 adapt

01:13:25.580 you

01:13:25.680 look

01:13:25.880 at

01:13:26.020 southern

01:13:26.280 Spain

01:13:26.740 and

01:13:27.000 you

01:13:27.240 look

01:13:27.440 at

01:13:27.660 the

01:13:27.860 British

01:13:28.760 we

01:13:29.700 call

01:13:29.920 them

01:13:30.040 expats

01:13:30.500 we

01:13:30.660 don't

01:13:30.860 pull

01:13:31.160 British

01:13:31.620 immigrants

01:13:32.000 to

01:13:32.220 Spain

01:13:32.500 do we

01:13:32.900 they

01:13:35.260 generally

01:13:36.220 don't

01:13:36.720 even

01:13:36.920 attempt

01:13:37.440 to learn

01:13:37.820 the

01:13:37.940 language

01:13:38.480 and

01:13:39.120 in

01:13:40.160 Spain

01:13:40.600 as

01:13:41.100 you

01:13:41.260 know

01:13:41.560 they

01:13:41.940 have

01:13:42.200 exactly

01:13:42.640 the

01:13:42.900 same

01:13:43.260 concerns

01:13:44.200 about

01:13:44.480 that

01:13:44.660 issue

01:13:44.880 as

01:13:45.020 we

01:13:45.120 do

01:13:45.240 here

01:13:45.420 they

01:13:45.580 want

01:13:45.760 to

01:13:45.880 kick

01:13:46.100 the

01:13:46.320 tourists

01:13:46.720 out

01:13:47.020 they

01:13:47.200 don't

01:13:47.420 like

01:13:47.660 as

01:13:47.800 many

01:13:47.980 tourists

01:13:48.360 yes

01:13:49.640 I

01:13:49.940 think

01:13:50.340 and

01:13:50.700 immigrants

01:13:51.180 well

01:13:51.560 not

01:13:53.320 necessarily

01:13:54.120 because

01:13:54.400 I

01:13:54.520 think

01:13:55.880 Spain

01:13:56.240 there

01:13:56.600 is

01:13:56.720 a

01:13:56.840 great

01:13:57.040 recognition

01:13:57.580 that

01:13:58.540 the

01:13:58.820 British

01:13:59.240 immigrants

01:14:00.220 actually

01:14:00.680 bring

01:14:00.880 quite

01:14:01.080 a lot

01:14:01.280 of

01:14:01.400 money

01:14:01.560 with

01:14:01.740 them

01:14:01.860 and

01:14:02.000 local

01:14:02.400 economies

01:14:02.960 would

01:14:03.160 find

01:14:03.340 it

01:14:03.480 quite

01:14:03.820 difficult

01:14:04.140 to

01:14:04.340 exist

01:14:04.620 without

01:14:04.920 them

01:14:05.220 so

01:14:05.360 I

01:14:05.440 think

01:14:05.520 there

01:14:05.660 is

01:14:05.780 a

01:14:06.120 little

01:14:06.380 bit

01:14:06.600 of

01:14:06.720 a

01:14:06.800 difference

01:14:07.140 anyway

01:14:07.480 we've

01:14:07.760 gone

01:14:07.920 a long

01:14:08.200 way

01:14:08.380 away

01:14:08.540 but

01:14:11.280 it

01:14:11.600 started

01:14:11.920 with

01:14:12.180 Nigel

01:14:13.080 being

01:14:13.480 in

01:14:14.060 that

01:14:14.440 tradition

01:14:14.780 is how

01:14:15.060 we

01:14:15.160 got

01:14:15.280 here

01:14:15.420 but

01:14:15.980 if

01:14:17.420 we

01:14:17.580 look

01:14:17.840 at

01:14:18.080 Thatcher

01:14:18.520 globally

01:14:19.180 what

01:14:19.600 I

01:14:19.760 find

01:14:20.100 he's

01:14:20.560 trying

01:14:20.680 to

01:14:20.800 bring

01:14:20.960 it

01:14:21.060 back

01:14:21.180 to

01:14:21.340 Thatcher

01:14:21.580 yeah

01:14:21.880 I

01:14:22.120 know

01:14:22.360 I

01:14:22.820 can't

01:14:23.100 believe

01:14:23.260 I'm

01:14:23.440 doing

01:14:23.560 that

01:14:23.740 very

01:14:23.860 professional

01:14:24.300 yeah

01:14:24.620 he's

01:14:25.300 got a

01:14:26.320 haircut

01:14:26.600 now

01:14:26.880 I'm

01:14:27.100 wearing

01:14:27.300 a

01:14:27.460 shirt

01:14:27.700 man

01:14:27.880 he

01:14:28.000 would

01:14:28.120 have

01:14:28.220 thought

01:14:28.340 that

01:14:28.500 would

01:14:28.620 have

01:14:28.720 happened

01:14:29.040 but

01:14:29.780 if

01:14:29.960 you

01:14:30.080 look

01:14:30.260 at

01:14:30.420 Thatcher

01:14:30.940 one

01:14:31.800 of

01:14:32.100 the

01:14:32.180 things

01:14:32.340 I

01:14:32.480 found

01:14:32.640 really

01:14:32.840 interesting

01:14:33.240 about

01:14:33.520 her

01:14:33.700 is

01:14:33.900 her

01:14:34.060 dealings

01:14:34.620 with

01:14:34.780 the

01:14:34.960 Soviet

01:14:35.240 Union

01:14:35.700 but

01:14:36.420 I

01:14:36.560 don't

01:14:36.960 think

01:14:37.180 that

01:14:37.340 we

01:14:37.520 can

01:14:37.720 appreciate

01:14:38.580 seeing

01:14:39.500 here

01:14:39.700 in

01:14:39.840 2025

01:14:50.560 It

01:14:51.000 really

01:14:51.720 is

01:14:51.860 an

01:14:51.980 interesting

01:14:52.340 story

01:14:52.880 because

01:14:53.420 she

01:14:55.340 had

01:14:56.020 very

01:14:56.460 little

01:14:56.780 foreign

01:14:57.100 policy

01:14:57.440 experience

01:14:58.060 when she

01:14:58.540 became

01:14:58.840 leader

01:14:59.240 I think

01:14:59.840 she'd

01:14:59.980 been on

01:15:00.240 a couple

01:15:00.600 of skiing

01:15:00.980 holidays

01:15:01.280 she'd

01:15:01.600 been on

01:15:01.840 a lecture

01:15:02.160 tour to

01:15:02.560 the USA

01:15:02.960 a couple

01:15:03.400 of times

01:15:03.820 and that

01:15:04.440 was

01:15:04.560 about

01:15:04.820 it

01:15:05.080 so

01:15:05.860 in

01:15:06.160 the

01:15:06.280 four

01:15:06.460 years

01:15:06.760 from

01:15:06.900 75

01:15:07.320 to

01:15:07.580 79

01:15:07.980 she

01:15:08.220 made

01:15:08.460 it

01:15:08.560 her

01:15:08.680 business

01:15:09.000 to

01:15:09.260 travel

01:15:09.540 quite

01:15:09.820 a

01:15:09.960 bit

01:15:10.180 and

01:15:11.340 interestingly

01:15:12.420 she

01:15:12.740 went

01:15:13.020 to

01:15:13.460 Hungary

01:15:13.940 and

01:15:14.140 Yugoslavia

01:15:14.780 two

01:15:15.320 countries

01:15:15.700 where

01:15:15.860 you

01:15:15.900 think

01:15:16.000 well

01:15:16.120 why

01:15:16.240 would

01:15:16.380 she

01:15:16.480 go

01:15:16.640 there

01:15:16.840 because

01:15:17.040 she

01:15:17.160 was

01:15:17.280 determined

01:15:17.620 to

01:15:17.800 see

01:15:17.900 what

01:15:18.060 it

01:15:18.140 was

01:15:18.240 like

01:15:18.460 behind

01:15:18.720 the

01:15:18.880 Iron

01:15:19.060 curtain

01:15:19.420 and

01:15:21.160 she

01:15:21.280 had

01:15:21.460 an

01:15:21.560 instinctive

01:15:22.140 hatred

01:15:22.580 of

01:15:22.800 communism

01:15:23.300 understandably

01:15:24.560 and

01:15:25.700 she

01:15:26.860 when

01:15:27.460 Brezhnev

01:15:28.380 died

01:15:28.780 there

01:15:29.140 were

01:15:29.280 two

01:15:29.760 leaders

01:15:30.360 that

01:15:30.840 rapidly

01:15:31.320 succeeded

01:15:31.880 him

01:15:32.200 Yuri

01:15:32.560 Andropov

01:15:33.220 who

01:15:34.300 then

01:15:35.000 died

01:15:35.560 after a

01:15:35.960 very

01:15:36.120 short

01:15:36.440 time

01:15:36.880 she

01:15:37.600 went

01:15:37.820 to

01:15:37.940 the

01:15:38.060 funeral

01:15:38.420 and

01:15:40.060 all

01:15:41.320 she

01:15:41.600 met

01:15:42.040 were

01:15:42.400 sort

01:15:42.600 of

01:15:42.720 aged

01:15:43.160 Soviet

01:15:43.700 leaders

01:15:44.240 she

01:15:44.480 met

01:15:44.860 the

01:15:45.880 successor

01:15:46.480 Chernyenko

01:15:47.160 and

01:15:48.720 on

01:15:49.120 the

01:15:49.260 flight

01:15:49.620 back

01:15:50.040 to

01:15:50.300 London

01:15:50.640 from

01:15:50.940 the

01:15:51.100 funeral

01:15:51.440 she

01:15:51.700 said

01:15:52.020 to

01:15:52.200 Charles

01:15:52.520 Pearl

01:15:52.760 her

01:15:52.940 foreign

01:15:53.180 policy

01:15:53.560 advisor

01:15:54.020 for

01:15:54.640 goodness

01:15:54.980 sakes

01:15:55.380 somebody

01:15:56.020 find me

01:15:56.560 a

01:15:56.700 young

01:15:56.920 Russian

01:15:57.340 and

01:15:58.700 they

01:15:58.860 identified

01:15:59.400 Mikhail Gorbachev

01:16:00.360 as that

01:16:00.960 young

01:16:01.420 I mean

01:16:01.740 young

01:16:02.000 was he

01:16:02.600 53

01:16:03.000 young

01:16:03.960 Russian

01:16:04.380 and

01:16:05.160 so

01:16:05.540 he

01:16:06.000 was

01:16:06.220 invited

01:16:06.700 he

01:16:07.100 was

01:16:07.220 the

01:16:07.320 minister

01:16:07.560 for

01:16:07.760 agriculture

01:16:08.200 at

01:16:08.400 the

01:16:08.500 time

01:16:08.780 so

01:16:09.520 he

01:16:09.640 was

01:16:09.780 invited

01:16:10.120 to

01:16:10.300 come

01:16:10.440 on

01:16:10.540 a

01:16:10.640 visit

01:16:10.840 to

01:16:11.220 the

01:16:11.520 UK

01:16:11.800 and

01:16:13.640 she

01:16:15.220 invited

01:16:16.040 him

01:16:16.200 for

01:16:16.320 lunch

01:16:16.500 at

01:16:16.640 Chequers

01:16:17.060 I

01:16:18.020 remember

01:16:18.520 Charles

01:16:18.860 Pearl

01:16:19.060 wrote

01:16:19.300 to

01:16:19.420 a

01:16:19.520 note

01:16:19.680 saying

01:16:19.940 do

01:16:20.260 you

01:16:20.340 want

01:16:20.480 to

01:16:20.600 invite

01:16:20.860 him

01:16:21.000 to

01:16:21.080 lunch

01:16:21.380 at

01:16:21.640 Downing

01:16:22.200 Street

01:16:22.440 or

01:16:22.620 your

01:16:22.820 dacha

01:16:23.300 i.e.

01:16:23.920 Chequers

01:16:24.360 and the

01:16:26.000 lunch

01:16:26.400 was supposed

01:16:26.820 to last

01:16:27.220 an hour

01:16:27.500 and a half

01:16:28.000 they

01:16:28.580 sat

01:16:28.900 sat down

01:16:29.400 and

01:16:30.640 she

01:16:31.020 turned

01:16:31.340 to

01:16:31.480 him

01:16:31.600 and

01:16:31.720 said

01:16:31.920 Mr.

01:16:32.900 Gorbachev

01:16:33.380 you

01:16:33.940 should

01:16:34.160 know

01:16:34.400 that

01:16:34.600 I

01:16:34.740 hate

01:16:34.960 communism

01:16:35.500 and

01:16:36.820 they

01:16:37.160 had

01:16:37.360 a

01:16:37.520 real

01:16:37.920 set

01:16:38.280 to

01:16:38.500 at

01:16:38.940 one

01:16:39.800 point

01:16:40.340 doing

01:16:41.180 this

01:16:41.500 they

01:16:42.580 fell

01:16:43.320 out

01:16:43.540 so

01:16:43.820 catastrophically

01:16:44.720 that

01:16:44.960 he

01:16:45.120 was

01:16:45.300 looking

01:16:45.620 over

01:16:45.900 there

01:16:46.200 and

01:16:46.320 she

01:16:46.500 was

01:16:46.660 looking

01:16:46.920 over

01:16:47.160 there

01:16:47.540 but

01:16:48.500 it

01:16:48.780 lasted

01:16:49.060 six

01:16:49.500 hours

01:16:49.860 in

01:16:50.060 the

01:16:50.200 end

01:16:50.500 and

01:16:51.280 once

01:16:51.580 they

01:16:51.760 got

01:16:52.200 the

01:16:52.360 initial

01:16:52.800 outlining

01:16:54.720 positions

01:16:55.200 out of

01:16:55.480 the

01:16:55.540 way

01:16:55.800 they

01:16:56.040 had

01:16:56.300 an

01:16:56.440 brilliant

01:16:57.120 conversation

01:16:57.740 and

01:16:59.040 she

01:16:59.380 famously

01:16:59.880 said

01:17:00.460 he's

01:17:01.060 a

01:17:01.160 man

01:17:01.320 I

01:17:01.460 can

01:17:01.600 do

01:17:01.740 business

01:17:02.120 with

01:17:02.460 she

01:17:03.260 immediately

01:17:03.620 got on

01:17:03.920 the

01:17:04.000 phone

01:17:04.160 to

01:17:04.320 Reagan

01:17:04.640 and

01:17:04.920 said

01:17:05.140 right

01:17:05.460 this

01:17:05.940 guy

01:17:06.180 could

01:17:06.400 be

01:17:06.520 the

01:17:06.680 next

01:17:06.940 Russian

01:17:07.480 leader

01:17:07.780 I

01:17:08.060 want

01:17:08.260 you

01:17:08.380 to

01:17:08.520 meet

01:17:08.740 him

01:17:08.940 and

01:17:09.060 anyway

01:17:09.340 then

01:17:09.820 Chonyenko

01:17:10.220 died

01:17:10.600 and

01:17:10.740 he

01:17:10.860 was

01:17:11.280 and

01:17:12.620 so

01:17:13.920 she

01:17:14.260 introduced

01:17:14.780 him

01:17:14.980 to

01:17:15.160 Reagan

01:17:15.480 and

01:17:16.020 every

01:17:16.340 time

01:17:16.740 he

01:17:17.120 went

01:17:17.360 to

01:17:17.520 see

01:17:17.720 Reagan

01:17:18.100 he

01:17:18.380 would

01:17:18.540 either

01:17:18.740 phone

01:17:19.060 her

01:17:19.240 up

01:17:19.460 or

01:17:19.680 stop

01:17:20.160 off

01:17:20.380 in

01:17:20.540 Britain

01:17:20.760 on

01:17:20.940 the

01:17:21.040 way

01:17:21.340 basically

01:17:22.140 to

01:17:22.440 get

01:17:22.620 the

01:17:22.780 low

01:17:22.940 down

01:17:23.200 on

01:17:23.400 what

01:17:23.580 Reagan

01:17:23.860 was

01:17:24.020 likely

01:17:24.220 to

01:17:24.400 say

01:17:24.600 to

01:17:24.840 him

01:17:25.120 and

01:17:26.120 she

01:17:26.420 played

01:17:26.700 a

01:17:26.880 pivotal

01:17:27.220 role

01:17:27.800 in

01:17:28.220 the

01:17:28.640 whole

01:17:29.260 of

01:17:29.600 that

01:17:29.800 period

01:17:30.340 in

01:17:31.240 and

01:17:31.780 there

01:17:31.900 were

01:17:32.100 difficulties

01:17:32.700 between

01:17:33.420 the

01:17:34.660 various

01:17:35.140 negotiations

01:17:35.760 between

01:17:36.220 the

01:17:36.400 Russians

01:17:37.000 and

01:17:37.560 Americans

01:17:38.520 and

01:17:39.000 she

01:17:39.140 was

01:17:39.280 able

01:17:39.540 to

01:17:39.760 smooth

01:17:40.260 the

01:17:40.500 path

01:17:40.820 in

01:17:40.980 a

01:17:41.080 way

01:17:41.320 and

01:17:42.720 anyone

01:17:43.500 that

01:17:43.900 says

01:17:44.380 that

01:17:44.680 she

01:17:44.960 played

01:17:45.420 a

01:17:45.980 very

01:17:46.280 small

01:17:46.660 part

01:17:47.080 or

01:17:47.240 no

01:17:47.480 part

01:17:47.840 in

01:17:48.000 the

01:17:48.100 end

01:17:48.300 of

01:17:48.400 the

01:17:48.540 Cold

01:17:48.800 War

01:17:49.180 they

01:17:49.760 need

01:17:49.960 to

01:17:50.100 read

01:17:50.260 their

01:17:50.400 history

01:17:50.660 books

01:17:51.080 because

01:17:51.660 one

01:17:52.280 thing

01:17:52.500 you

01:17:52.600 describe

01:17:52.980 beautifully

01:17:53.440 in

01:17:53.600 the

01:17:53.700 book

01:17:53.900 is

01:17:54.120 the

01:17:54.700 real

01:17:55.460 affection

01:17:55.940 that

01:17:56.220 she

01:17:56.440 had

01:17:56.700 for

01:17:56.920 Reagan

01:17:57.180 particularly

01:17:57.800 as

01:17:59.100 he

01:17:59.540 got

01:17:59.820 less

01:18:00.360 well

01:18:00.700 and

01:18:00.880 became

01:18:01.140 sicker

01:18:01.540 with

01:18:01.700 dementia

01:18:02.160 and

01:18:02.520 then

01:18:02.680 his

01:18:02.880 inevitable

01:18:03.300 passing

01:18:03.820 and

01:18:04.740 they

01:18:04.900 tell

01:18:05.120 the

01:18:05.280 story

01:18:05.540 of

01:18:05.660 the

01:18:05.880 funeral

01:18:06.760 and

01:18:07.320 it

01:18:07.580 just

01:18:08.900 shows

01:18:09.400 the

01:18:09.720 power

01:18:11.160 that

01:18:11.400 these

01:18:11.780 two

01:18:12.000 had

01:18:12.460 really

01:18:12.780 because

01:18:13.160 they

01:18:13.580 were

01:18:13.720 instrumental

01:18:14.480 and

01:18:14.780 there

01:18:15.040 are

01:18:15.160 other

01:18:15.320 factors

01:18:15.640 as

01:18:15.880 well

01:18:16.100 but

01:18:16.480 in

01:18:16.600 the

01:18:16.720 downfall

01:18:17.160 of

01:18:17.280 the

01:18:17.400 Soviet

01:18:17.640 Union

01:18:18.060 absolutely

01:18:19.220 and

01:18:19.900 look

01:18:20.540 people

01:18:21.300 say

01:18:21.580 oh

01:18:21.720 yeah

01:18:21.860 well

01:18:22.040 look

01:18:22.200 how

01:18:22.320 that's

01:18:22.580 turned

01:18:22.820 out

01:18:23.140 well

01:18:24.000 you

01:18:24.160 can't

01:18:24.720 judge

01:18:25.040 things

01:18:25.440 by

01:18:25.700 what

01:18:25.960 subsequently

01:18:26.560 happens

01:18:27.320 I

01:18:27.660 mean

01:18:27.840 the

01:18:28.360 nuclear

01:18:29.420 arms

01:18:29.820 race

01:18:30.160 came

01:18:30.820 to

01:18:31.000 an

01:18:31.160 end

01:18:31.480 and

01:18:32.600 which

01:18:32.860 when I

01:18:33.480 was

01:18:33.740 a

01:18:34.320 late

01:18:34.520 teenager

01:18:35.060 in

01:18:35.300 my

01:18:35.540 early

01:18:35.960 20s

01:18:36.540 there

01:18:36.660 was

01:18:36.860 a

01:18:37.000 genuine

01:18:37.320 fear

01:18:37.760 of

01:18:37.920 nuclear

01:18:38.240 armageddon

01:18:38.920 there

01:18:39.460 were

01:18:39.580 feature

01:18:39.900 films

01:18:40.200 made

01:18:40.480 about

01:18:40.820 it

01:18:41.100 and

01:18:41.940 people

01:18:42.300 genuinely

01:18:42.820 feared

01:18:43.260 that

01:18:43.560 there

01:18:43.840 would

01:18:44.040 be

01:18:44.240 a

01:18:44.380 nuclear

01:18:44.680 war

01:18:45.120 now

01:18:46.160 together

01:18:46.860 they

01:18:47.220 averted

01:18:47.980 that

01:18:48.420 and

01:18:49.020 it

01:18:49.120 was

01:18:49.380 the

01:18:49.980 slogan

01:18:50.520 for

01:18:50.740 NATO

01:18:51.020 at the

01:18:51.260 time

01:18:51.460 was

01:18:51.620 peace

01:18:51.900 through

01:18:52.140 strength

01:18:52.620 and

01:18:52.800 it

01:18:52.940 really

01:18:53.220 was

01:18:53.660 it

01:18:53.840 wasn't

01:18:54.180 sort

01:18:54.420 of

01:18:55.020 a

01:18:55.740 detente

01:18:56.260 policy

01:18:56.800 towards

01:18:57.160 the

01:18:57.320 Soviet

01:18:57.560 Union

01:18:57.920 it

01:18:58.060 was

01:18:58.180 if

01:18:58.620 you

01:18:58.800 get

01:18:59.000 a

01:18:59.160 weapon

01:18:59.380 we're

01:18:59.660 going

01:18:59.760 to

01:18:59.840 get

01:19:00.000 two

01:19:00.320 and

01:19:01.640 it

01:19:01.940 was

01:19:02.100 that

01:19:02.380 that

01:19:02.580 really

01:19:03.000 brought

01:19:04.340 about

01:19:04.600 the

01:19:04.740 end

01:19:04.860 of

01:19:04.960 the

01:19:05.080 Soviet

01:19:05.320 Union

01:19:05.560 because

01:19:05.820 in

01:19:06.020 the

01:19:06.180 end

01:19:06.560 it

01:19:07.880 couldn't

01:19:08.540 work

01:19:08.900 the

01:19:09.220 Russians

01:19:09.780 could

01:19:10.220 not

01:19:10.540 spend

01:19:10.900 the

01:19:11.080 money

01:19:11.260 that

01:19:11.440 was

01:19:11.580 needed

01:19:11.940 to

01:19:12.980 do

01:19:14.480 what

01:19:14.680 and

01:19:14.860 that's

01:19:15.260 why

01:19:15.400 I

01:19:15.500 think

01:19:15.680 where

01:19:16.020 we

01:19:16.160 are

01:19:16.300 nowadays

01:19:16.760 with

01:19:17.120 Putin

01:19:17.540 25%

01:19:19.260 of the

01:19:19.740 Russian

01:19:19.940 GDP

01:19:20.340 is

01:19:20.620 now

01:19:20.860 through

01:19:21.760 the

01:19:22.680 defence

01:19:23.000 industries

01:19:23.480 and

01:19:23.800 that

01:19:23.960 is

01:19:24.100 unsustainable

01:19:24.920 in

01:19:25.400 the

01:19:25.500 long

01:19:25.720 term

01:19:26.040 so

01:19:28.280 when

01:19:28.800 people

01:19:29.060 say

01:19:29.320 we

01:19:29.920 need

01:19:30.120 to

01:19:30.280 get

01:19:30.620 out

01:19:30.800 of

01:19:30.920 you

01:19:31.080 supporting

01:19:32.540 Ukraine

01:19:32.980 no

01:19:33.820 this

01:19:34.280 is

01:19:34.400 the

01:19:34.540 time

01:19:34.760 when

01:19:34.900 you

01:19:34.980 need

01:19:35.160 to

01:19:35.300 stick

01:19:35.580 at

01:19:35.820 it

01:19:36.060 and

01:19:36.620 turn

01:19:36.820 the

01:19:37.000 screw

01:19:37.360 absolutely

01:19:40.080 and I

01:19:40.880 think

01:19:41.020 she

01:19:41.180 would

01:19:41.320 have

01:19:41.400 been

01:19:42.200 really

01:19:42.440 proud

01:19:42.780 of

01:19:42.900 the

01:19:42.960 way

01:19:43.080 this

01:19:43.280 country

01:19:43.560 has

01:19:43.820 stood

01:19:44.000 up

01:19:44.160 for

01:19:44.300 Ukraine

01:19:44.700 how

01:19:46.960 would

01:19:47.920 she

01:19:48.060 have

01:19:48.200 dealt

01:19:48.420 with

01:19:48.620 someone

01:19:48.880 like

01:19:49.180 Putin

01:19:49.600 because

01:19:50.560 you

01:19:51.240 see

01:19:51.640 the

01:19:51.960 Trump

01:19:54.260 way

01:19:54.760 of

01:19:54.900 dealing

01:19:55.120 with

01:19:55.340 him

01:19:55.620 I

01:19:55.880 mean

01:19:56.040 Biden

01:19:56.740 had

01:19:57.000 another

01:19:57.220 way

01:19:57.360 what

01:19:57.500 do

01:19:57.580 you

01:19:57.660 think

01:19:57.820 would

01:19:57.980 have

01:19:58.080 been

01:19:58.200 the

01:19:58.400 Thatcher

01:19:58.800 way

01:19:59.080 of

01:19:59.340 dealing

01:19:59.580 with

01:19:59.820 a

01:20:00.020 leader

01:20:00.440 like

01:20:00.680 Putin

01:20:00.880 I have

01:20:01.060 no

01:20:01.300 clue

01:20:01.700 I

01:20:02.600 mean

01:20:02.840 I'm

01:20:02.960 not

01:20:03.160 sure

01:20:03.560 I

01:20:04.280 think

01:20:04.520 she

01:20:04.720 would

01:20:04.840 have

01:20:04.940 come

01:20:05.080 to

01:20:05.200 the

01:20:05.340 conclusion

01:20:05.780 that

01:20:05.980 you

01:20:06.080 can't

01:20:06.520 deal

01:20:06.760 with

01:20:06.960 someone

01:20:07.220 like

01:20:07.540 him

01:20:07.760 and

01:20:07.960 therefore

01:20:08.240 probably

01:20:08.740 wouldn't

01:20:09.080 have

01:20:09.240 tried

01:20:09.600 and

01:20:10.300 she

01:20:10.440 would

01:20:10.560 have

01:20:10.620 done

01:20:10.760 everything

01:20:11.180 in

01:20:11.380 her

01:20:11.540 power

01:20:11.900 to

01:20:12.600 try

01:20:13.720 and

01:20:13.920 encourage

01:20:14.640 the

01:20:15.420 Soviet

01:20:15.840 sorry

01:20:16.780 the Russian

01:20:17.180 people

01:20:25.620 come

01:20:25.940 now

01:20:26.200 to

01:20:26.360 the

01:20:26.540 end

01:20:26.820 of

01:20:26.960 her

01:20:27.140 career

01:20:27.820 you

01:20:28.540 know

01:20:28.700 the

01:20:29.240 economy

01:20:29.560 was

01:20:29.760 in

01:20:29.860 a

01:20:29.960 great

01:20:30.200 place

01:20:30.600 she

01:20:31.280 transformed

01:20:32.320 the

01:20:32.700 country

01:20:33.180 economically

01:20:34.260 the

01:20:34.580 roaring

01:20:35.020 80s

01:20:35.720 you know

01:20:36.060 loads

01:20:36.780 of

01:20:36.920 money

01:20:37.140 all the

01:20:37.560 rest

01:20:37.800 of it

01:20:38.060 city

01:20:38.360 boys

01:20:38.740 yuppies

01:20:39.380 I

01:20:40.960 mean

01:20:41.100 what

01:20:41.380 went

01:20:41.560 wrong

01:20:41.960 poll

01:20:42.880 tax

01:20:43.240 it

01:20:44.320 wasn't

01:20:44.560 just

01:20:44.780 that

01:20:45.080 but

01:20:45.300 poll

01:20:46.380 tax

01:20:46.760 and

01:20:46.960 her

01:20:47.140 attitude

01:20:47.460 on

01:20:47.920 her

01:20:48.120 rhetoric

01:20:48.820 about

01:20:49.120 Europe

01:20:49.420 those

01:20:49.740 were

01:20:49.880 the

01:20:50.000 two

01:20:50.200 things

01:20:50.660 that

01:20:51.160 mostly

01:20:51.720 led

01:20:52.020 to

01:20:52.160 her

01:20:52.440 decline

01:20:53.320 you

01:20:53.540 can

01:20:53.720 add

01:20:53.900 into

01:20:54.120 the

01:20:54.300 equation

01:20:54.720 the

01:20:54.960 fact

01:20:55.200 that

01:20:55.360 she

01:20:55.500 kept

01:20:55.740 appointing

01:20:56.200 the

01:20:56.320 wrong

01:20:56.480 people

01:20:56.760 to

01:20:56.920 the

01:20:57.060 cabinet

01:20:57.380 so

01:20:58.140 in

01:20:58.340 her

01:20:58.480 11

01:20:58.780 and a

01:20:59.020 half

01:20:59.200 years

01:20:59.440 in

01:20:59.620 power

01:20:59.960 not

01:21:00.500 once

01:21:00.900 did

01:21:01.100 she

01:21:01.240 have

01:21:01.420 majority

01:21:01.760 support

01:21:02.260 in

01:21:02.440 her

01:21:02.580 cabinet

01:21:02.840 she

01:21:03.120 kept

01:21:03.400 appointing

01:21:04.020 wets

01:21:04.440 to

01:21:04.660 her

01:21:04.840 cabinet

01:21:05.160 people

01:21:06.660 like

01:21:06.960 Chris

01:21:07.200 Patton

01:21:07.540 William

01:21:07.780 Waldergrave

01:21:08.300 at the

01:21:08.560 end

01:21:08.680 why

01:21:08.940 because

01:21:10.400 she

01:21:10.600 took

01:21:10.840 too

01:21:11.040 much

01:21:11.200 notice

01:21:11.520 of

01:21:11.660 the

01:21:11.780 whips

01:21:12.040 the

01:21:12.240 whips

01:21:12.660 this

01:21:13.500 is

01:21:13.640 where

01:21:13.880 you

01:21:14.120 have

01:21:14.260 to

01:21:14.360 get

01:21:14.700 into

01:21:14.860 the

01:21:15.120 minutia

01:21:15.680 of

01:21:15.820 Westminster

01:21:16.140 politics

01:21:16.720 people

01:21:17.720 imagine

01:21:18.180 it's

01:21:18.480 the

01:21:18.620 prime

01:21:18.800 minister

01:21:19.140 that

01:21:19.380 appoints

01:21:19.740 all

01:21:19.980 government

01:21:20.320 ministers

01:21:20.840 well

01:21:21.080 it's

01:21:21.240 not

01:21:21.600 the

01:21:22.080 prime

01:21:22.440 minister

01:21:22.700 appoints

01:21:23.080 the

01:21:23.220 cabinet

01:21:23.560 in

01:21:24.460 consultation

01:21:24.920 with

01:21:25.340 the

01:21:25.480 chief

01:21:25.720 whip

01:21:26.000 but

01:21:26.740 it's

01:21:26.880 the

01:21:27.040 chief

01:21:27.300 whip

01:21:27.560 that

01:21:27.740 appoints

01:21:28.160 most

01:21:28.420 of

01:21:28.560 the

01:21:28.660 junior

01:21:28.920 positions

01:21:29.460 and

01:21:30.300 if

01:21:30.500 the

01:21:31.360 chief

01:21:31.720 whip

01:21:32.080 over

01:21:32.420 the

01:21:32.580 years

01:21:32.900 keeps

01:21:33.640 appointing

01:21:34.360 people

01:21:34.720 from

01:21:34.960 the

01:21:35.100 left

01:21:35.280 of

01:21:35.420 the

01:21:35.520 party

01:21:35.940 well

01:21:36.440 there

01:21:36.560 isn't

01:21:36.800 a

01:21:36.960 big

01:21:37.160 gene

01:21:37.500 pool

01:21:37.860 for

01:21:39.000 the

01:21:39.200 prime

01:21:39.400 minister

01:21:39.660 to

01:21:45.120 well

01:21:46.000 I think

01:21:46.380 she had

01:21:46.740 the

01:21:46.880 wrong

01:21:47.140 chief

01:21:47.440 whip

01:21:47.620 almost

01:21:48.080 entirely

01:21:48.660 through

01:21:49.000 her

01:21:49.420 time

01:21:50.400 in

01:21:50.720 office

01:21:51.080 and

01:21:51.260 at

01:21:51.380 the

01:21:51.520 end

01:21:51.900 she

01:21:52.960 appointed

01:21:53.520 Sir

01:21:54.400 Geoffrey

01:21:54.740 Howe's

01:21:55.260 chief

01:21:55.780 friend

01:21:56.180 in

01:21:56.360 politics

01:21:56.800 Tim

01:21:57.080 Renton

01:21:57.500 to be

01:21:57.840 her

01:21:58.020 chief

01:21:58.280 whip

01:21:58.580 I mean

01:21:59.880 she'd

01:22:00.240 already

01:22:00.480 fallen

01:22:00.800 out

01:22:01.060 with

01:22:01.200 Geoffrey

01:22:01.460 Howe

01:22:01.600 why

01:22:01.940 on

01:22:02.180 earth

01:22:02.600 I

01:22:02.820 still

01:22:03.060 don't

01:22:03.260 understand

01:22:03.580 why

01:22:03.820 she

01:22:03.960 did

01:22:04.120 that

01:22:04.280 I

01:22:04.720 published

01:22:05.180 Tim

01:22:05.420 Renton's

01:22:05.880 memoirs

01:22:06.380 the

01:22:06.500 first

01:22:06.680 time

01:22:06.860 a

01:22:06.960 chief

01:22:07.140 who

01:22:07.260 had

01:22:07.380 ever

01:22:07.520 done

01:22:07.700 a

01:22:07.820 book

01:22:08.040 and

01:22:15.120 whether

01:22:16.220 she

01:22:16.420 should

01:22:16.620 stay

01:22:16.840 as

01:22:16.980 leader

01:22:17.280 in

01:22:17.500 1990

01:22:18.000 he

01:22:18.220 didn't

01:22:18.420 vote

01:22:18.640 for

01:22:18.860 her

01:22:19.060 and

01:22:20.560 he

01:22:20.700 didn't

01:22:20.960 see

01:22:21.140 any

01:22:21.320 problem

01:22:21.640 with

01:22:21.860 that

01:22:22.020 and

01:22:22.140 staying

01:22:22.480 on

01:22:22.660 as

01:22:22.800 chief

01:22:23.060 whip

01:22:23.340 I

01:22:24.240 said

01:22:24.600 that

01:22:25.160 really

01:22:26.040 is

01:22:26.340 treachery

01:22:27.300 if you'd

01:22:27.880 resigned

01:22:28.440 and done

01:22:29.120 it

01:22:29.240 honourably

01:22:29.720 fine

01:22:30.200 but you

01:22:30.560 didn't

01:22:31.120 it was

01:22:32.580 almost

01:22:32.800 as if

01:22:33.080 it was

01:22:33.260 the

01:22:33.380 first

01:22:33.580 time

01:22:33.760 he

01:22:33.860 thought

01:22:34.060 about

01:22:34.320 it

01:22:34.500 and

01:22:36.060 that

01:22:36.660 was

01:22:36.840 emblematic

01:22:37.420 of the

01:22:37.760 problem

01:22:38.060 that

01:22:38.280 she

01:22:38.440 had

01:22:38.840 so

01:22:39.520 when

01:22:39.800 after

01:22:40.840 the

01:22:41.100 first

01:22:41.500 ballot

01:22:41.800 where

01:22:42.000 she

01:22:45.120 called

01:22:48.500 in

01:22:48.760 her

01:22:49.000 cabinet

01:22:49.340 one

01:22:49.700 by

01:22:50.000 one

01:22:50.460 rather

01:22:50.900 than

01:22:51.140 doing

01:22:51.400 it

01:22:51.560 all

01:22:51.740 around

01:22:51.920 the

01:22:52.060 cabinet

01:22:52.340 table

01:22:52.780 and

01:22:53.820 they

01:22:54.060 all

01:22:54.420 basically

01:22:55.000 said

01:22:55.360 the

01:22:55.540 same

01:22:55.820 thing

01:22:56.240 well

01:22:56.800 of course

01:22:57.120 we'll

01:22:57.300 support

01:22:57.660 you

01:22:57.780 in

01:22:57.880 the

01:22:57.980 second

01:22:58.200 round

01:22:58.400 prime

01:22:58.620 minister

01:22:58.920 but

01:22:59.280 you're

01:22:59.580 going

01:22:59.640 to

01:22:59.740 lose

01:23:00.060 and

01:23:01.260 she

01:23:01.420 found

01:23:01.640 this

01:23:01.780 a

01:23:01.940 deeply

01:23:02.220 traumatic

01:23:02.820 experience

01:23:03.760 as you

01:23:04.120 can

01:23:04.260 imagine

01:23:04.540 and

01:23:04.700 there

01:23:04.780 was

01:23:04.880 only

01:23:05.040 one

01:23:05.500 or

01:23:05.640 two

01:23:05.840 Ken

01:23:06.160 Clark

01:23:06.460 being

01:23:06.680 one

01:23:06.920 he

01:23:07.060 said

01:23:07.220 unless

01:23:07.880 you

01:23:08.140 resign

01:23:08.500 I

01:23:08.800 will

01:23:09.020 resign

01:23:09.380 myself

01:23:09.940 which

01:23:11.120 was

01:23:11.420 I

01:23:11.660 mean

01:23:11.780 fair

01:23:12.080 enough

01:23:12.380 that

01:23:12.580 was

01:23:12.700 at least

01:23:13.160 he

01:23:13.280 was

01:23:13.380 being

01:23:13.620 honest

01:23:14.040 but

01:23:15.600 that

01:23:15.800 was

01:23:16.000 really

01:23:16.500 that

01:23:18.420 demonstrated

01:23:19.300 her

01:23:19.600 that

01:23:19.820 she

01:23:20.000 could

01:23:20.280 not

01:23:20.600 continue

01:23:21.340 and

01:23:22.520 as

01:23:22.680 she

01:23:22.780 said

01:23:22.980 I've

01:23:23.220 never

01:23:23.420 lost

01:23:23.700 an

01:23:23.860 election

01:23:24.240 and

01:23:26.200 again

01:23:26.620 another

01:23:26.960 bit

01:23:27.180 of

01:23:27.300 counterfactual

01:23:27.900 history

01:23:28.240 if

01:23:28.420 she

01:23:28.500 had

01:23:28.640 stayed

01:23:28.900 as

01:23:29.120 leader

01:23:29.340 would

01:23:29.600 she

01:23:29.780 have

01:23:29.900 won

01:23:30.100 in

01:23:30.240 1992

01:23:31.040 again

01:23:32.140 nobody

01:23:32.760 will

01:23:33.140 know

01:23:33.360 but

01:23:33.520 I

01:23:33.640 think

01:23:33.780 it's

01:23:34.020 certainly

01:23:34.780 possible

01:23:35.280 want to

01:23:36.580 go

01:23:36.700 electric

01:23:37.140 without

01:23:37.600 sacrificing

01:23:38.260 fun

01:23:38.700 that's

01:23:40.440 the

01:23:40.600 Volkswagen

01:23:41.080 ID4

01:23:41.860 all

01:23:42.480 electric

01:23:42.920 and

01:23:43.280 thoughtfully

01:23:43.720 designed

01:23:44.100 to elevate

01:23:44.760 your

01:23:44.980 modern

01:23:45.300 lifestyle

01:23:45.860 the

01:23:46.300 Volkswagen

01:23:46.720 ID4

01:23:47.400 is fun

01:23:47.860 to drive

01:23:48.300 with

01:23:48.620 instant

01:23:49.020 acceleration

01:23:49.660 that makes

01:23:50.260 city streets

01:23:50.880 feel like

01:23:51.420 open roads

01:23:52.180 plus a

01:23:52.880 refined

01:23:53.260 interior

01:23:53.760 with

01:23:54.280 innovative

01:23:54.700 technology

01:23:55.400 always at

01:23:56.080 your

01:23:56.220 fingertips

01:23:56.760 the

01:23:57.240 all

01:23:57.520 electric

01:23:57.960 ID4

01:23:58.700 you

01:23:59.040 deserve

01:23:59.380 more

01:23:59.640 fun

01:23:59.960 visit

01:24:00.420 vw.ca

01:24:01.400 to learn

01:24:01.860 more

01:24:02.220 SUVW

01:24:03.460 German

01:24:03.960 engineered

01:24:04.420 for all

01:24:04.960 in

01:24:06.080 and I

01:24:06.400 really

01:24:06.860 want to

01:24:07.180 hone in

01:24:07.720 on the

01:24:07.960 poll tax

01:24:08.520 rights

01:24:08.840 because

01:24:09.120 there's

01:24:09.400 lots

01:24:09.720 of

01:24:09.900 people

01:24:10.200 here

01:24:10.460 who

01:24:10.900 would

01:24:11.020 have

01:24:11.180 no

01:24:11.480 idea

01:24:11.860 about

01:24:12.220 it

01:24:12.420 what

01:24:12.720 is

01:24:12.860 it

01:24:12.980 what

01:24:13.220 was

01:24:13.540 it

01:24:13.800 etc

01:24:14.380 why

01:24:15.200 was

01:24:15.460 it

01:24:15.600 so

01:24:15.840 divisive

01:24:16.680 well

01:24:17.580 local

01:24:18.000 government

01:24:18.300 funding

01:24:18.700 is not

01:24:19.040 the most

01:24:19.340 exciting

01:24:19.760 political

01:24:20.200 issue

01:24:20.640 but in

01:24:21.480 the 1970s

01:24:22.600 and 1980s

01:24:23.640 local

01:24:25.040 government

01:24:25.460 was funded

01:24:26.160 I mean

01:24:26.640 predominantly

01:24:27.040 by central

01:24:27.640 government

01:24:27.920 actually

01:24:28.320 but a

01:24:29.000 quarter

01:24:29.240 of the

01:24:29.460 funding

01:24:29.740 came from

01:24:30.280 what

01:24:30.420 we call

01:24:30.640 domestic

01:24:31.060 rates

01:24:31.600 and

01:24:32.940 each

01:24:33.980 property

01:24:34.760 had a

01:24:35.360 rateable

01:24:35.760 value

01:24:36.200 and

01:24:37.380 every

01:24:38.040 time

01:24:38.480 there was

01:24:38.940 a

01:24:39.420 revision

01:24:41.080 of the

01:24:41.440 rating

01:24:41.720 system

01:24:42.320 there was

01:24:42.840 a terrible

01:24:43.380 political

01:24:43.940 problem

01:24:45.160 because

01:24:45.520 inevitably

01:24:45.920 everything

01:24:46.480 all the

01:24:47.780 rates

01:24:48.060 went up

01:24:48.680 and

01:24:49.760 before

01:24:50.280 she

01:24:50.520 became

01:24:50.900 leader

01:24:51.200 she

01:24:51.420 was

01:24:51.600 tasked

01:24:51.880 by

01:24:52.080 Ted

01:24:52.360 Heath

01:24:52.620 to

01:24:52.800 come

01:24:52.980 up

01:24:53.120 with

01:24:53.220 an

01:24:53.360 alternative

01:24:53.860 to

01:24:54.320 rates

01:24:54.800 and

01:24:55.640 in

01:24:56.180 the

01:24:56.320 October

01:24:57.080 1974

01:24:57.740 election

01:24:58.360 they

01:24:59.720 had a

01:25:00.060 policy

01:25:00.460 of saying

01:25:01.000 we will

01:25:01.380 abolish

01:25:01.820 domestic

01:25:02.260 rates

01:25:02.660 which

01:25:02.840 was

01:25:02.940 a

01:25:03.020 very

01:25:03.140 popular

01:25:03.440 policy

01:25:03.880 now

01:25:04.100 they

01:25:04.220 didn't

01:25:04.440 win

01:25:04.720 so

01:25:05.700 when

01:25:05.880 she

01:25:06.060 became

01:25:06.360 prime

01:25:06.580 minister

01:25:06.820 she

01:25:07.060 knew

01:25:07.720 that

01:25:07.880 she

01:25:08.000 was

01:25:08.120 going

01:25:08.240 to

01:25:08.300 have

01:25:08.400 to

01:25:08.500 do

01:25:08.660 something

01:25:09.100 so

01:25:10.000 there

01:25:10.140 are

01:25:10.220 all

01:25:10.460 sorts

01:25:10.860 of

01:25:11.060 systems

01:25:11.480 that

01:25:11.660 were

01:25:11.780 suggested

01:25:12.260 a

01:25:12.520 local

01:25:12.780 income

01:25:13.120 tax

01:25:13.620 and

01:25:15.760 the

01:25:15.980 poll

01:25:16.180 tax

01:25:16.520 or

01:25:16.680 community

01:25:17.120 charge

01:25:17.540 as it

01:25:18.120 was

01:25:18.260 known

01:25:18.580 and

01:25:19.240 that

01:25:19.400 would

01:25:19.520 have

01:25:19.640 meant

01:25:19.820 that

01:25:20.000 every

01:25:20.320 single

01:25:20.720 adult

01:25:21.240 would

01:25:21.540 pay

01:25:21.980 well

01:25:23.340 the

01:25:23.640 initial

01:25:24.000 rate

01:25:24.280 was

01:25:24.440 going

01:25:24.560 to

01:25:24.600 be

01:25:24.720 200

01:25:25.120 pounds

01:25:25.440 a

01:25:25.620 year

01:25:25.820 and

01:25:25.980 that

01:25:26.100 would

01:25:26.220 fund

01:25:26.500 all

01:25:26.680 local

01:25:26.960 government

01:25:27.280 services

01:25:27.960 that

01:25:29.200 200

01:25:29.520 pounds

01:25:29.880 a

01:25:30.040 year

01:25:30.300 even

01:25:30.780 in

01:25:30.920 the

01:25:31.020 1980s

01:25:31.840 it

01:25:32.360 wasn't

01:25:32.660 a

01:25:32.840 fortune

01:25:33.200 but

01:25:33.980 of

01:25:34.140 course

01:25:34.380 the

01:25:34.740 natural

01:25:35.080 thing

01:25:35.400 for

01:25:35.600 people

01:25:35.780 to

01:25:35.920 say

01:25:36.040 why

01:25:36.720 should

01:25:37.340 a

01:25:37.500 millionaire

01:25:37.840 pay

01:25:38.580 the

01:25:38.760 same

01:25:42.780 that

01:25:43.340 was

01:25:43.560 really

01:25:43.840 at

01:25:43.980 the

01:25:44.100 crux

01:25:44.400 of

01:25:44.540 it

01:25:44.700 about

01:25:44.940 the

01:25:45.080 unfairness

01:25:45.740 anyway

01:25:46.500 as time

01:25:46.920 went

01:25:47.180 on

01:25:47.520 it

01:25:48.000 went

01:25:48.180 up

01:25:48.320 from

01:25:48.440 200

01:25:48.920 to

01:25:49.500 300

01:25:50.080 to

01:25:50.500 400

01:25:51.080 now

01:25:51.620 Nigel

01:25:51.940 Lawson

01:25:52.280 the

01:25:52.440 chancellor

01:25:52.800 he

01:25:52.980 was

01:25:53.100 never

01:25:53.320 in

01:25:53.500 favor

01:25:53.780 of

01:25:53.980 it

01:25:54.120 but

01:25:54.320 he

01:25:54.480 didn't

01:25:55.120 for

01:25:55.320 some

01:25:55.540 reason

01:25:55.760 didn't

01:25:56.060 veto

01:25:56.360 it

01:25:56.700 and

01:25:57.900 he

01:25:58.340 kept

01:25:58.600 being

01:25:58.880 asked

01:25:59.220 for

01:25:59.400 more

01:25:59.640 subsidies

01:26:00.080 to

01:26:00.860 make

01:26:01.260 sure

01:26:01.460 it

01:26:01.600 would

01:26:01.720 work

01:26:02.060 because

01:26:02.360 once

01:26:02.920 you

01:26:03.060 get

01:26:03.200 to

01:26:03.360 a

01:26:03.520 certain

01:26:03.820 rate

01:26:04.260 if

01:26:04.760 you

01:26:04.880 can't

01:26:06.400 tax

01:26:06.720 people

01:26:07.020 without

01:26:07.260 their

01:26:07.520 consent

01:26:08.040 and

01:26:08.980 it

01:26:09.080 got

01:26:09.240 to

01:26:09.420 a

01:26:09.540 level

01:26:09.840 of

01:26:10.040 so

01:26:10.220 people

01:26:11.180 thought

01:26:11.420 500

01:26:12.000 pounds

01:26:12.460 sorry

01:26:12.920 that

01:26:13.200 is

01:26:13.640 just

01:26:13.820 taking

01:26:14.120 the

01:26:14.280 bits

01:26:14.540 and

01:26:15.440 it

01:26:17.160 was

01:26:17.300 a

01:26:17.640 brilliant

01:26:18.900 thing

01:26:19.180 for

01:26:19.340 the

01:26:19.480 left

01:26:19.760 because

01:26:20.040 they

01:26:20.200 had

01:26:20.360 something

01:26:20.560 to

01:26:20.700 get

01:26:20.800 their

01:26:20.960 teeth

01:26:21.200 into

01:26:21.520 this

01:26:22.240 is

01:26:22.480 Margaret

01:26:22.740 Thatcher's

01:26:23.160 invention

01:26:23.580 she's

01:26:24.300 wicked

01:26:24.540 for

01:26:24.740 doing

01:26:24.980 this

01:26:25.360 and

01:26:26.700 it

01:26:27.180 culminated

01:26:27.760 in

01:26:28.120 riots

01:26:28.680 in

01:26:28.920 Trafalgar

01:26:29.320 Square

01:26:29.740 in

01:26:30.080 April

01:26:30.480 1990

01:26:31.560 but

01:26:33.380 just

01:26:33.720 as

01:26:33.900 bad

01:26:34.160 as

01:26:34.320 that

01:26:34.760 they

01:26:35.480 had

01:26:35.580 taken

01:26:35.820 a

01:26:36.720 trial

01:26:37.060 it

01:26:37.220 in

01:26:37.400 Scotland

01:26:37.780 well

01:26:38.040 you

01:26:38.120 can

01:26:38.220 imagine

01:26:38.480 how

01:26:38.920 Scotland

01:26:39.820 felt

01:26:40.120 about

01:26:40.400 that

01:26:40.740 and

01:26:43.120 so

01:26:43.780 that

01:26:44.640 I

01:26:45.600 think

01:26:46.020 was

01:26:46.440 the

01:26:46.880 most

01:26:47.100 important

01:26:47.620 reason

01:26:48.000 for

01:26:48.280 her

01:26:48.480 departure

01:26:48.900 because

01:26:49.240 she

01:26:49.500 wouldn't

01:26:50.180 compromise

01:26:50.580 on it

01:26:51.060 Ian

01:26:51.660 we're

01:26:51.860 going to

01:26:52.040 head over

01:26:52.340 to

01:26:52.540 Substack

01:26:52.980 where

01:26:53.180 our

01:26:53.360 audience

01:26:53.660 get

01:26:53.880 to

01:26:54.020 ask

01:26:54.520 you

01:26:54.760 their

01:26:55.020 questions

01:26:55.400 but

01:26:55.600 before

01:26:55.880 we

01:26:56.040 do

01:26:56.200 what's

01:26:56.520 the

01:26:56.600 one

01:26:56.720 thing

01:26:56.940 about

01:26:57.280 Margaret

01:26:57.800 Thatcher

01:26:58.360 that

01:26:58.860 no

01:26:59.060 one

01:26:59.220 is

01:26:59.340 talking

01:26:59.600 about

01:26:59.900 and

01:27:00.120 should

01:27:00.320 be

01:27:00.560 oh

01:27:01.780 my

01:27:01.940 god

01:27:02.340 leadership

01:27:06.260 she

01:27:07.700 knew

01:27:07.840 what

01:27:07.960 leadership

01:27:08.300 was

01:27:08.700 we

01:27:08.860 have

01:27:08.980 a

01:27:09.080 prime

01:27:09.280 minister

01:27:09.540 now

01:27:09.800 who

01:27:09.920 doesn't

01:27:10.140 understand

01:27:10.500 the

01:27:10.700 meaning

01:27:10.900 of

01:27:11.140 the

01:27:11.260 word

01:27:11.580 we've

01:27:12.140 had

01:27:12.260 quite

01:27:12.460 a

01:27:12.580 few

01:27:12.740 of

01:27:12.880 those

01:27:13.100 for

01:27:14.160 a

01:27:14.300 while

01:27:14.480 now

01:27:14.780 well

01:27:15.840 I

01:27:16.000 think

01:27:16.260 I

01:27:17.980 think

01:27:18.140 that's

01:27:18.360 actually

01:27:18.680 not

01:27:19.200 necessarily

01:27:19.980 true

01:27:20.580 and if

01:27:21.220 we go

01:27:21.480 back

01:27:21.800 to

01:27:22.280 Blair

01:27:23.160 I

01:27:23.600 think

01:27:23.760 he

01:27:23.900 was

01:27:24.140 a

01:27:24.300 leader

01:27:24.540 he

01:27:25.020 knew

01:27:26.180 what

01:27:26.440 leadership

01:27:26.760 was

01:27:27.000 about

01:27:27.360 Brown

01:27:28.600 on

01:27:29.840 some

01:27:30.140 issues

01:27:30.460 yes

01:27:30.820 but

01:27:31.100 he

01:27:31.480 was

01:27:31.580 never

01:27:31.740 a

01:27:31.920 charismatic

01:27:32.380 leader

01:27:32.700 and

01:27:33.380 the

01:27:33.500 thing

01:27:33.680 is

01:27:33.880 that

01:27:34.040 if

01:27:34.140 you

01:27:34.240 look

01:27:34.400 back

01:27:34.620 to

01:27:34.760 the

01:27:34.980 beginning

01:27:35.480 to

01:27:36.320 the

01:27:36.480 end

01:27:36.580 of

01:27:36.660 the

01:27:36.760 second

01:27:36.940 world

01:27:37.200 war

01:27:37.520 you

01:27:38.040 go

01:27:38.240 through

01:27:38.400 all

01:27:38.660 of

01:27:38.760 our

01:27:38.900 prime

01:27:39.120 ministers

01:27:39.440 since

01:27:39.840 then

01:27:40.160 they

01:27:41.180 generally

01:27:41.560 go

01:27:41.820 charismatic

01:27:42.320 one

01:27:42.760 dull

01:27:43.020 one

01:27:43.280 charismatic

01:27:43.660 one

01:27:44.100 dull

01:27:44.320 one

01:27:44.520 and

01:27:44.640 of

01:27:44.780 course

01:27:44.800 we

01:27:44.920 associate

01:27:45.320 charisma

01:27:45.880 with

01:27:46.100 leadership

01:27:46.540 I

01:27:47.580 think

01:27:47.720 Boris

01:27:47.940 Johnson

01:27:48.280 was

01:27:48.960 a

01:27:49.240 leader

01:27:49.500 of

01:27:49.800 sorts

01:27:50.240 and

01:27:50.400 maybe

01:27:50.560 a

01:27:50.820 different

01:27:51.260 kind

01:27:51.560 of

01:27:51.780 character

01:27:52.120 and

01:27:53.220 then

01:27:54.020 of

01:27:54.240 course

01:27:54.480 it

01:27:54.980 was

01:27:55.720 supposed

01:27:55.980 to be

01:27:56.260 then

01:27:56.460 Keir Starmer

01:27:57.040 the dull

01:27:57.800 one

01:27:58.000 would

01:27:58.140 succeed

01:27:58.500 him

01:27:58.660 but

01:27:58.760 then

01:27:58.920 of

01:27:59.040 course

01:27:59.140 we

01:27:59.260 had

01:27:59.360 Liz

01:27:59.560 Truss

01:27:59.820 and

01:27:59.940 Rishi

01:28:00.140 Sunak

01:28:00.600 both

01:28:01.140 of

01:28:01.320 whom

01:28:01.580 you'd

01:28:02.160 say

01:28:02.300 were

01:28:02.440 pretty

01:28:02.720 dull

01:28:03.040 actually

01:28:03.480 so

01:28:04.900 we

01:28:05.020 are

01:28:05.120 in

01:28:05.220 a

01:28:05.300 dull

01:28:05.460 period

01:28:05.860 can

01:28:06.160 you

01:28:06.300 can

01:28:06.560 you

01:28:06.680 be

01:28:06.820 a

01:28:07.040 leader

01:28:07.360 without

01:28:08.720 being

01:28:09.440 charismatic

01:28:10.460 now

01:28:10.960 there's

01:28:11.200 an

01:28:11.560 interesting

01:28:11.900 essay

01:28:12.180 question

01:28:12.740 I

01:28:12.980 mean

01:28:13.360 Attlee

01:28:13.640 was

01:28:13.860 a

01:28:14.020 leader

01:28:14.260 but

01:28:14.540 had

01:28:14.680 no

01:28:14.880 charisma

01:28:15.200 whatsoever

01:28:15.740 Attlee

01:28:16.100 would

01:28:16.280 never

01:28:16.540 make

01:28:16.840 it

01:28:16.960 in

01:28:17.080 today's

01:28:17.400 politics

01:28:17.900 I

01:28:18.220 don't

01:28:18.460 think

01:28:18.820 so

01:28:20.580 I

01:28:20.820 think

01:28:21.240 it's

01:28:22.520 Thatcher's

01:28:23.820 form

01:28:24.120 of

01:28:24.320 leadership

01:28:24.760 that

01:28:25.780 we

01:28:26.400 should

01:28:26.640 be

01:28:26.840 discussing

01:28:27.280 a lot

01:28:27.640 more

01:28:28.060 and

01:28:28.400 working

01:28:28.800 out

01:28:29.060 how

01:28:29.320 it

01:28:29.460 can

01:28:29.560 be

01:28:29.720 translated

01:28:30.180 in

01:28:30.440 today's

01:28:30.800 politics

01:28:31.340 Ian

01:28:32.020 thanks

01:28:32.260 for

01:28:32.400 coming

01:28:32.580 on

01:28:32.820 head

01:28:33.320 on

01:28:33.440 over

01:28:33.560 to

01:28:33.740 Substack

01:28:34.140 where

01:28:34.400 you

01:28:34.720 get

01:28:34.920 to

01:28:35.060 ask

01:28:35.300 Ian

01:28:35.460 your

01:28:35.700 questions

01:28:36.220 Graham

01:28:38.980 Ward

01:28:39.280 asks

01:28:39.780 in

01:28:39.940 your

01:28:40.040 opinion

01:28:40.340 what

01:28:40.560 was

01:28:40.720 Margaret

01:28:41.040 Thatcher's

01:28:41.540 biggest

01:28:41.880 political

01:28:42.340 mistake

01:28:42.840 and

01:28:43.020 how

01:28:43.200 did

01:28:43.360 it

01:28:43.440 affect

01:28:43.780 Britain

01:28:44.180 Rachel

01:28:45.480 says

01:28:45.940 can

01:28:46.340 Ian

01:28:46.680 explain

01:28:47.180 why

01:28:47.440 his

01:28:47.640 attitude

01:28:48.040 to

01:28:48.360 Israel

01:28:48.700 is

01:28:48.940 so

01:28:49.120 negative

01:28:49.480 what

TRIGGERnometry - September 03, 2025

The Real Story of Margaret Thatcher - Iain Dale

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