TRIGGERnometry - The Reality of Sex & Gender, Evolutionary History & Free Will

00:00:00.760 We had this big controversy with two boxers in the Olympics.

00:00:04.600 What do you make of all of this?

00:00:05.820 I think it's both unfair and actually dangerous.

00:00:09.380 You believe that the question I'm asking you now

00:00:12.520 and the answer you're giving me now is predetermined.

00:00:15.700 I'm afraid I do, and I find that very hard to stomach.

00:00:18.480 But yes, free will is an illusion.

00:00:21.420 But it's a very, very powerful illusion.

00:00:23.540 We all feel as if we've got free will.

00:00:26.380 That's quite a...

00:00:27.400 You keep asking me the same question.

00:00:28.440 Yes, but that's because you haven't answered it.

00:00:31.180 It's quite a contradiction.

00:00:31.920 I will not answer it, nor will anybody else in any satisfactory way.

00:00:36.000 It's a philosophically difficult problem.

00:00:39.380 Professor Richard Dawkins, such a pleasure to have you back.

00:00:42.200 I can't wait to talk about your new book, Your Tour of America.

00:00:45.240 Before we get into that, as is obligatory now,

00:00:47.920 you're a biologist and a scientist.

00:00:49.600 We have to ask you a bunch of stupid questions

00:00:51.420 because society seems to be stupid as well.

00:00:53.860 We had this big controversy with two boxers in the Olympics.

00:00:57.000 Some people who were paying attention were saying they're male.

00:01:01.020 Other people saying, no, they're women.

00:01:02.560 They should be able to compete.

00:01:03.960 What do you make of all of this?

00:01:05.100 It's fairly clear that they're genetically male.

00:01:07.660 They have a Y chromosome.

00:01:09.580 On the other hand, they seem to be phenotypically female

00:01:12.480 in the sense that they probably have female genitals,

00:01:15.280 and they no doubt sincerely think they're female.

00:01:19.220 So although genetically male,

00:01:20.780 they're at least partly phenotypically female.

00:01:22.800 The question is, which part of the phenotype is relevant to boxing?

00:01:27.720 Genitals aren't.

00:01:29.160 But things like reach and punching strength are.

00:01:33.220 And it's pretty clear that they are male in that respect.

00:01:37.980 And so it does seem to me that they should not have been allowed

00:01:41.020 to compete in the Olympics in the female event.

00:01:44.580 It's unfortunate for them.

00:01:45.720 It's sad for them because they seem to believe they're genuinely female.

00:01:49.940 But I think it's both unfair and actually dangerous

00:01:53.840 for women to be fighting against genetic males

00:01:58.100 who have male boxing abilities and strength and reach.

00:02:06.140 Well, quite.

00:02:06.800 And I guess the question would be,

00:02:08.340 why do you think that position wasn't taken

00:02:13.060 by all the different authorities involved?

00:02:14.940 You'd have to ask them.

00:02:16.260 But what they say is that these boxers have female on their passport

00:02:24.080 and they took that as being evidence.

00:02:25.820 Of course, it isn't.

00:02:26.660 I mean, the correct evidence is, I think, genetic evidence

00:02:30.780 coupled with an examination of whether the...

00:02:34.600 I think that's probably sufficient, actually.

00:02:36.820 I mean, they are genetic males.

00:02:39.880 It's really interesting that we're talking about this.

00:02:42.320 Why do you think that this issue has suddenly come to prominence?

00:02:47.640 Because if you look at your career, I mean,

00:02:49.940 we were talking about far more interesting things 20, 30, 40 years ago.

00:02:54.700 Doesn't it feel to you like we've regressed somewhat?

00:02:57.260 Yes, it does.

00:02:57.960 I mean, I think the reason it's come to prominence is the trans lobby.

00:03:00.700 These two boxers are not trans, as a matter of fact.

00:03:03.380 I mean, they've always thought of themselves as female.

00:03:06.920 But I think that's why it came to prominence.

00:03:09.600 And that's probably why the Olympic controllers went by passport

00:03:15.060 rather than by actual biology.

00:03:18.220 Quite.

00:03:19.020 I mean, do you get frustrated with the lay of the land now,

00:03:23.700 where words that we knew what they meant now no longer mean what they used to mean?

00:03:29.280 Yes, intensely frustrated.

00:03:30.460 I'm very annoyed with, I regard it as a subversion of language

00:03:35.440 as well as a subversion of science.

00:03:38.280 And, I mean, words are our servants, not our masters.

00:03:43.380 But nevertheless, there are limits.

00:03:45.240 And if you're going to argue that, for example,

00:03:48.060 you could say, I redefine flat as meaning round,

00:03:54.180 therefore the world is flat.

00:03:55.380 I mean, you could say that.

00:03:56.760 I mean, you're entitled to redefine words if you want,

00:03:58.780 but don't expect anybody else to come along with you.

00:04:01.580 And to suddenly redefine female as male or male as female

00:04:05.440 is going too far with messing around with language, in my view.

00:04:09.480 And do you regard all of this as a kind of minor irritant

00:04:13.000 that people are paying perhaps too much attention to?

00:04:16.140 Or do you think this is something that's impactful on things like science,

00:04:20.760 you know, the ability of researchers to do proper research and so on?

00:04:23.860 Well, it's an irritant.

00:04:26.400 It's not a minor, it's a major irritant.

00:04:29.260 And it's, I mean, partly athletic events

00:04:32.900 where males are entering female.

00:04:35.960 Nothing works the other way around, of course, for obvious reasons.

00:04:40.380 Yes, I mean, I think it does have an impact on science.

00:04:43.740 And some of the leading scientific journals,

00:04:45.860 like Scientific American, for example,

00:04:49.340 have fallen for a hook, line and sinker.

00:04:52.200 Richard, you use the term subversion of science.

00:04:56.160 And look, there's a lot of people who listen to this podcast,

00:04:58.960 regular people, who will be like,

00:05:01.400 well, that sounds really bad.

00:05:03.400 What do you mean by that?

00:05:04.540 And what are the implications of that?

00:05:07.260 Well, if we take the particular issue of sex

00:05:11.400 and the reality of sex,

00:05:14.900 the male-female divide is a deeply significant divide

00:05:19.340 that runs right through the whole animal and plant kingdoms.

00:05:22.800 And at the base of it is gamete size.

00:05:26.400 There are two kinds of gametes, big ones and small ones.

00:05:30.700 And there's a hugely different between them.

00:05:32.520 There's no overlap between them.

00:05:33.960 There's sperms and eggs.

00:05:36.540 And those individuals who are equipped to produce sperms are male.

00:05:43.340 And those who are equipped to produce eggs are female.

00:05:46.100 Not all of them actually do, of course.

00:05:47.700 I mean, worker bees, for example, are sterile.

00:05:50.400 They don't produce eggs.

00:05:51.740 Mostly they don't.

00:05:52.920 But they're still female because they have the potential to produce eggs.

00:05:55.840 If you feed them differently, they will become queens.

00:05:58.580 And so the divide between male and female is fundamental in biology.

00:06:04.140 It's an absolute binary.

00:06:07.060 And suddenly, in one species, homo sapiens,

00:06:11.340 it's become fashionable to sweep that away and say,

00:06:16.060 right, no, sex is not a binary.

00:06:19.100 It's a spectrum.

00:06:21.100 It's a complete, I called it subversion.

00:06:25.680 I think that's the correct word to use

00:06:27.320 because it goes against the whole of the rest of biology,

00:06:31.080 the whole of the rest of evolution.

00:06:33.080 And what are the implications for things like medicine,

00:06:36.360 for things like scientific discovery,

00:06:38.360 for things like innovation?

00:06:41.700 Well, I would hope that in the case of medicine,

00:06:44.860 a doctor who examines a patient would not need to ask them

00:06:49.660 whether they're male or female.

00:06:51.340 But I think I read somewhere that the American Medical Association

00:06:55.840 has given advice to doctors that they ought to ask people what their sex is.

00:07:03.400 You'd think a doctor wouldn't need to do that after they've examined somebody.

00:07:07.040 So I think it's probably fair to say that doctors in practice

00:07:11.920 go by the real biological sex of somebody when they're treating them

00:07:16.000 rather than by what they think they are.

00:07:17.820 Richard, let me apologize to you for the fact that we're even asking you these questions.

00:07:22.780 I feel like it's a massive waste of time, honestly, talking about all this stuff.

00:07:26.480 But then again, as you say, it's not a minor error and it actually has consequences.

00:07:29.660 So I'm glad we've talked about it.

00:07:31.180 Let's move on, though.

00:07:32.380 Okay.

00:07:32.780 And not focus too much on this stuff,

00:07:35.220 even though, as we both talked about, it has impact.

00:07:37.540 One of the things you've been instrumental of your entire career is

00:07:42.600 the popularization of evolutionary theory,

00:07:46.720 giving people answers to questions they might have once had about evolution, etc.

00:07:51.780 How far have we moved over your lifetime, over the course of your work,

00:07:57.340 in terms of understanding human evolution and evolution of other animals,

00:08:02.480 of the entire animal kingdom?

00:08:04.700 How far have I moved?

00:08:06.320 No, we as a society, how far has our understanding moved?

00:08:09.260 Are there still unanswered questions, for example?

00:08:11.320 Yes.

00:08:12.260 And what are they?

00:08:13.260 Well, for example, the origin of the whole thing,

00:08:15.660 how did it get started, the origin of life?

00:08:17.500 That's a big unanswered question.

00:08:19.880 It may never be answered definitively.

00:08:21.520 We don't know that.

00:08:23.800 I suppose the biggest change in my lifetime has been the rise of molecular biology,

00:08:29.600 where it's become, ever since 1953, it's become clear that genetics is digital, profoundly digital.

00:08:39.360 It's like a branch of computer science.

00:08:42.120 It's quaternary rather than binary.

00:08:44.000 But this is something that really illuminates in a very big way.

00:08:49.860 With hindsight, I think it's probably we could say that it had to be digital, otherwise it wouldn't have worked.

00:08:55.360 But anyway, it's extremely interesting that the difference between animals can actually be quantified.

00:09:02.120 The genetics of it can be quantified.

00:09:03.780 It's rather like taking two texts of, say, biblical books, two texts of the book of Jeremiah, say,

00:09:10.900 which are, you can line them up and you can say, this is different there, there, there, and there, and there.

00:09:17.180 You can actually take two animals, say, a mole and a shrew,

00:09:22.860 and you can say, line up their DNA, line up their genes,

00:09:27.620 and look at exactly where each letter is different.

00:09:30.280 And in the case of a mole and a shrew, there wouldn't be very many differences.

00:09:34.680 In the case of a mole and an aardvark, there'd be a large number of differences,

00:09:38.980 but you can still do it.

00:09:39.940 You can still take the same genes from different animals,

00:09:44.200 even quite spaced out animals, quite, I mean, a mole and an aardvark are really quite far apart.

00:09:50.100 You can actually locate the same gene in these different animals,

00:09:53.020 and you can compare letter for letter for letter for letter exactly where they differ.

00:09:57.920 This is precise detective work.

00:10:00.280 And it's mind-blowing, actually, that you can do that,

00:10:04.300 because in Darwin's time, all you could do is look at the gross anatomy

00:10:07.820 and say, well, they look pretty much the same in this bone and that bone.

00:10:11.820 But now you can do it letter for letter, you can actually quantify it.

00:10:15.020 And that is wonderful.

00:10:17.360 When you say wonderful, well, why is it significant, Richard?

00:10:19.840 Explain to the ordinary person why this really matters.

00:10:22.340 Because it's precise.

00:10:26.360 Every animal in the world today has the same DNA code

00:10:32.300 and many of the same genes you can actually identify.

00:10:35.860 Therefore, in principle, since the sequencing of DNA is now so cheap and quick,

00:10:41.820 in principle, you could take any two animals you like and sequence their DNA

00:10:47.160 and calculate how closely related they are

00:10:52.280 and with some more assumptions calculate how long ago their common ancestor lived.

00:10:57.760 Was it 100 million years ago?

00:10:59.060 500 million years ago.

00:11:01.380 There's a lot of possible error there, but in principle it can be done.

00:11:06.620 And if you could sequence the, and you can, just a matter of time spent doing it,

00:11:12.600 sequence the DNA of every animal in existence,

00:11:14.840 you could actually plot a gigantic tree of life,

00:11:20.240 an actual family tree of all animals.

00:11:23.120 It's so interesting that you say that, because I was reading the book over the weekend,

00:11:27.380 absolutely loved it, by the way.

00:11:29.000 And there were so many fascinating little tidbits in it.

00:11:32.240 For example, the hippos, one of the hippos' closest relatives

00:11:36.280 in this genetic tree of life is the whale.

00:11:40.080 When you look at it on a surface level, you would presume it'd be the rhino, for example.

00:11:45.300 It's remarkable.

00:11:47.300 This has now been known for some decades,

00:11:49.780 but when it was first discovered, it really hit me a blow.

00:11:54.080 It's an astonishing fact.

00:11:55.900 I suppose the reason is that the common ancestor would not have been a hippo, by the way.

00:12:01.580 It would have been something quite different from either of them.

00:12:04.240 The common ancestor then, one branch took to the water

00:12:09.320 and eventually took to the water completely,

00:12:12.680 left the land altogether and even reproduced in water.

00:12:15.260 And once you've done that, you're emancipated from the need,

00:12:18.120 from the demands of gravity.

00:12:19.960 And so the reason why it's possible for the closest relative of hippos

00:12:24.340 to be whales and yet look so incredibly different

00:12:27.740 is that whales are emancipated from the tyranny of gravity, really.

00:12:33.380 They no longer have to bother about gravity.

00:12:35.600 They don't walk and run and things like that.

00:12:39.460 Therefore, they were free to evolve in a radically different direction

00:12:42.620 and become unrecognisably related to hippos.

00:12:48.360 I mean, but the molecular evidence is unequivocal.

00:12:52.120 It definitely shows it.

00:12:53.740 And it's so interesting as well, because in the book,

00:12:56.160 so going back to my own school days,

00:12:58.380 and I thought it was, well, as I was taught in a pretty rudimentary fashion,

00:13:03.140 that there were animals that lived in the water,

00:13:05.540 they came onto the land, they adapted to the land,

00:13:07.700 and then they became, you know, tigers, baboons, whatever they may be.

00:13:11.320 I didn't realise, and you explain in the book very eloquently,

00:13:14.480 how there were some animals who came from the water to the land

00:13:17.900 and decided, nah, not for me, and then went back into the water again.

00:13:22.320 Quite a lot of them.

00:13:23.040 I mean, there are, in addition to whales and there are dugongs and manatees,

00:13:28.060 there are, well, seals and sea lions, less radically, turtles.

00:13:34.140 Turtles, by the way, turned around back again and came back out again.

00:13:36.800 And so modern tortoises, land tortoises, are actually animals that were in the sea

00:13:41.720 when they were fish, came out on land, went back into the sea as turtles,

00:13:45.240 and then came back onto the land again.

00:13:47.800 And there's a whole section of the Genetic Book of the Dead that has that story.

00:13:55.460 But yes, it is remarkable that so many animals went into reverse

00:14:00.800 having come out onto the land.

00:14:03.820 And is that quite a natural process, where they will come onto the land

00:14:11.040 and then back and forth and so on?

00:14:13.000 Or is that the exception rather than the rule?

00:14:16.480 Well, I'm not sure.

00:14:17.660 I mean, it's sort of an exception, but it's pretty common.

00:14:21.840 I mean, I mentioned quite a lot of vertebrates that do it,

00:14:24.420 a lot of invertebrates that do it as well.

00:14:27.560 So I suppose it's a fairly common exception, put it that way.

00:14:32.520 And Richard, it's been quite a kind of meme, I don't know if it's true,

00:14:38.080 that water is essential for the evolution of life.

00:14:43.960 We just saw, I don't know if you saw the news,

00:14:46.060 that there's been some water discovered on Mars.

00:14:50.040 Is that significant? Is that important?

00:14:52.200 Well, water is certainly essential for our kind of life,

00:14:56.760 and very probably essential for any kind of life.

00:14:59.400 One of the things that so-called exobiologists,

00:15:02.020 people who are interested in studying the possibility of life on other planets,

00:15:06.500 one of the things they look for is water, as liquid water.

00:15:11.020 Because, of course, water can be either solid or gaseous.

00:15:16.740 And liquid water is not diagnostic of life, but it's a pretty good prerequisite.

00:15:22.320 You're kind of looking for it if you're interested in finding life elsewhere.

00:15:26.360 So did you think that the discovery on Mars was significant in any way?

00:15:31.540 Well, I mean, I don't think there is life on Mars,

00:15:36.420 but if you were studying planets more widely,

00:15:42.860 I think one of the first things you would look for,

00:15:44.660 if you're interested in looking for life, would be water.

00:15:47.720 That's really interesting,

00:15:48.860 because a lot of people are reading a lot of significance

00:15:52.540 into this particular discovery,

00:15:54.180 and they want to see it as the opportunity

00:15:56.360 that we can then go on and colonise Mars.

00:15:59.340 Elon Musk, I'm sure, is salivating at the thought of water being on Mars.

00:16:04.840 Do you think that's a likely goal for human beings to want to achieve that,

00:16:11.880 or do you think that's almost in the realm of science fiction?

00:16:15.600 Oh, I think it's perfectly possible.

00:16:19.200 I mean, Mars is not very far away when you think about it

00:16:21.240 compared to the stars,

00:16:23.760 and Elon Musk's rationale is

00:16:28.420 you mustn't have all your eggs in one basket,

00:16:31.980 which is fair enough,

00:16:33.520 because the projectile that killed the dinosaurs was a big one,

00:16:41.680 but an even bigger one could come along

00:16:43.440 and probably one day will.

00:16:45.540 I wouldn't get worried about it.

00:16:47.000 It won't happen tomorrow.

00:16:47.920 And a catastrophe like that would not happen to two planets at the same time,

00:16:56.560 and so putting a colony on Mars is an interesting thing to do.

00:17:02.040 I wouldn't volunteer.

00:17:03.500 I suppose I might volunteer if I had terminal cancer or something,

00:17:06.940 because I wouldn't be quite curious.

00:17:09.200 I don't know if people with terminal cancer make good colonisers.

00:17:11.940 But I see what you mean.

00:17:15.420 But do you think that would even be viable to have a colony on Mars?

00:17:22.360 Yes, I think it's viable.

00:17:24.260 It wouldn't be much fun, I think.

00:17:26.200 I mean, it's nothing but desert, of course,

00:17:30.680 and you would have to start greening the place.

00:17:35.540 I mean, you would start with great big greenhouses

00:17:37.760 and then try to introduce plants,

00:17:40.800 and it's actually pretty difficult to get a balanced ecosystem going.

00:17:46.460 But it's an interesting project,

00:17:49.900 and I mean, I don't think it's silly.

00:17:53.100 I think it's part of this sort of the outward urge,

00:17:58.120 the spirit of humanity discovering new worlds.

00:18:02.980 I don't know if you get this.

00:18:06.200 Actually, I presume you do in a far more in-depth way,

00:18:10.480 shall we put it, than I ever could,

00:18:11.980 which is the moment when I read about Mars,

00:18:14.100 because I'm quite interested in space travel,

00:18:15.640 and I learn about the planet,

00:18:17.640 what it really does is fill me with a sense of wonder

00:18:20.580 and appreciation for our own planet.

00:18:23.420 I mean, when you take a step back

00:18:27.040 and look at this planet that we live in,

00:18:29.540 it's a complete, it's a miracle that it exists, isn't it?

00:18:32.980 It's wonderful.

00:18:34.560 Of course, the fact that it's so well-suited to us is no accident.

00:18:38.920 That's why, because we evolved here.

00:18:41.640 If we'd evolved somewhere else,

00:18:43.640 we would think that was a miracle.

00:18:46.920 And in many ways, it is wonderful.

00:18:49.240 I mean, there are aspects of it that are not,

00:18:52.900 but I think it, you know, I keep saying,

00:18:55.480 I think it's a great privilege to be alive

00:18:57.520 and on such a wonderful planet, yes.

00:18:59.860 And you also talk,

00:19:01.180 and one of the ideas that you talk about in the book

00:19:04.380 that I found very interesting

00:19:05.460 is you said that nature is conservative.

00:19:09.100 What do you mean by that,

00:19:11.180 with nature being conservative?

00:19:12.600 Well, the context of that was

00:19:15.180 the genetic book of the dead

00:19:18.760 is saying that animals are programmed.

00:19:26.660 Well, first of all,

00:19:27.660 this thesis is the animal is a book,

00:19:30.000 which is a description of ancestral worlds.

00:19:32.760 And another way of putting that

00:19:34.300 is to say that it embodies the genes

00:19:36.020 and it embodies a prediction

00:19:37.220 of what the future is going to be like.

00:19:39.260 And so every animal is born with a prediction.

00:19:42.980 You will be born in,

00:19:44.820 genetic prediction says you will be born in a swamp

00:19:47.680 or in a desert or in a river

00:19:49.460 or in the sea or up a mountain.

00:19:53.200 And to the extent that that prediction is correct,

00:19:57.240 you'll survive.

00:19:59.140 And fortunately,

00:20:00.920 the world is a conservative place.

00:20:03.920 It doesn't jump around all the time.

00:20:05.900 If it's been a desert for the past 10,000 years,

00:20:10.960 the chances are it's going to be a desert

00:20:12.060 for the next 10 years

00:20:13.160 or the next however long the animal lives.

00:20:15.540 So an animal that's born in a desert

00:20:18.160 is predicting that it's going to be born in a desert

00:20:20.500 and the prediction is correct.

00:20:21.620 And that's because the world is a conservative place.

00:20:25.880 A contrast would be a world

00:20:27.360 that was capriciously jumping around

00:20:30.320 in a sort of random way.

00:20:31.740 If that were true,

00:20:33.180 then you couldn't become,

00:20:35.800 you couldn't survive

00:20:36.800 because no bet that you make

00:20:39.800 as to where you're going to live

00:20:40.720 would be correct.

00:20:42.060 That's all I meant

00:20:42.860 by saying the world is a conservative place.

00:20:44.660 Yeah.

00:20:44.940 And it's a very,

00:20:45.720 because it really,

00:20:47.400 it then leads quite nicely

00:20:48.700 to my next question,

00:20:49.860 which is the human being's relationship

00:20:51.680 with technology.

00:20:52.700 Because you say the world

00:20:53.720 is a conservative place

00:20:54.820 and the natural world is.

00:20:56.460 But if you look at all the technology

00:20:57.880 we're now surrounded by,

00:20:59.200 the rapid growth of technology,

00:21:01.380 the change of technology,

00:21:02.900 there's a lot of people

00:21:03.740 who we've had on the show

00:21:05.440 who says the technology

00:21:06.760 that we've created

00:21:08.120 effectively hacks our biology.

00:21:11.460 So I guess my question to you is,

00:21:13.320 is the human body

00:21:14.280 becoming less and less adapted

00:21:17.360 to being in this world

00:21:19.960 with all this technology

00:21:21.140 and all these screens?

00:21:22.260 This is a worry

00:21:22.880 because when I say

00:21:25.420 the world is a conservative place,

00:21:26.800 you're quite right

00:21:27.960 that in the human world

00:21:29.680 where technology advances

00:21:30.960 so quickly,

00:21:32.140 it's much less

00:21:33.040 of a conservative place.

00:21:34.080 It's still fairly conservative.

00:21:36.120 But it is changing more rapidly

00:21:38.700 and many people do worry

00:21:39.940 that the pace of change

00:21:42.000 is such that we are no longer

00:21:43.580 well adapted to live in it.

00:21:45.800 And much of the mental illness

00:21:48.340 that afflicts people

00:21:49.500 may be because

00:21:50.400 we are in a constantly changing,

00:21:53.940 unpredictable environment

00:21:55.720 in a way that our ancestors were not.

00:21:58.640 So that is a worry.

00:22:00.020 Actually, I think it's amazing

00:22:00.940 how resilient we are.

00:22:02.040 I mean, we do seem to most of us

00:22:03.320 manage to cope pretty well

00:22:04.480 with the astonishing rate of change.

00:22:06.940 In my lifetime,

00:22:09.980 well, I suppose the internet

00:22:11.500 is one of the biggest changes.

00:22:12.880 It's a huge change.

00:22:13.940 It's a gigantic change.

00:22:15.060 If you imagine a science fiction plot

00:22:17.760 in which, say,

00:22:18.760 some sort of magnetic storm

00:22:21.600 from the sun or something

00:22:22.520 wipes out the internet,

00:22:26.520 we'd be lost.

00:22:28.820 We sort of,

00:22:29.760 we've become adapted to it

00:22:32.180 with astonishing rapidity.

00:22:34.480 Does it worry you?

00:22:35.740 Because you'd say we'd be lost

00:22:37.760 and I quite agree with you.

00:22:39.240 I'm going to put myself.

00:22:40.780 I mean, without electricity,

00:22:42.480 I wouldn't be able to do my job.

00:22:45.120 All of these things,

00:22:46.480 my knowledge of hunting

00:22:47.800 would be zero.

00:22:48.700 So, I mean,

00:22:50.080 imagine me in the forest

00:22:51.300 with a spear.

00:22:52.020 I mean, it'd be funny,

00:22:53.080 but that's about it.

00:22:54.720 Probably injure yourself.

00:22:55.840 Yeah, and injure myself

00:22:56.780 rather than any other animal.

00:22:58.880 Do you think as human beings

00:23:00.460 that we've become

00:23:01.320 too disconnected

00:23:02.660 from the natural world?

00:23:05.300 Well, we're okay at the moment

00:23:07.320 because things aren't changing

00:23:08.540 too rapidly.

00:23:09.700 But you're quite right,

00:23:10.440 of course,

00:23:10.680 if we lost electricity,

00:23:12.620 if we suddenly lost

00:23:13.480 the technology we're used to,

00:23:16.060 we couldn't begin.

00:23:16.820 I mean, you need,

00:23:18.340 who knows how to make a battery?

00:23:20.500 Who knows how to make a knife?

00:23:24.520 All the sort of things

00:23:25.460 you might need.

00:23:26.920 We're so used to having things

00:23:28.520 served up on a plate

00:23:29.960 because we are interdependent.

00:23:32.680 We have specialists

00:23:33.360 to make all the things

00:23:34.700 that we need.

00:23:36.580 And for the moment,

00:23:37.820 it seems to be working.

00:23:39.800 Yeah, well, quite.

00:23:40.560 And it's funny,

00:23:41.260 you mentioned,

00:23:41.780 I saw a video the other day

00:23:42.840 of a guy,

00:23:43.820 he set out to make a toaster

00:23:45.400 by himself from scratch.

00:23:46.840 And it took him like a year

00:23:48.260 and $32,000 to do it.

00:23:50.060 Quite.

00:23:50.440 Because you had to dig up

00:23:51.300 the metal and the ore

00:23:52.760 and all of that.

00:23:53.540 So that specialization

00:23:54.920 is a huge evolutionary adaptation

00:23:56.820 of human psychology.

00:23:57.880 I wouldn't call it evolution.

00:23:58.840 Well, it's analogous to evolution.

00:24:01.020 Yeah.

00:24:01.380 But it's a different kind.

00:24:02.340 It's not genetic evolution.

00:24:03.640 No, it's not.

00:24:04.520 Well, that's what I was going

00:24:05.400 to ask you.

00:24:05.940 I mean,

00:24:06.640 is it fair to say

00:24:08.240 that human beings

00:24:09.120 are no longer really

00:24:10.140 evolving genetically

00:24:11.080 nearly as much

00:24:11.960 as we would have done

00:24:13.060 in the past.

00:24:14.040 But what we are doing

00:24:15.080 is evolving

00:24:15.600 in this part of ourselves.

00:24:18.420 Relatively speaking,

00:24:19.320 I wouldn't wish

00:24:20.440 to go on record

00:24:21.080 as saying we're not

00:24:21.780 evolving genetically,

00:24:22.800 but certainly

00:24:23.320 the rate at which

00:24:24.400 we're evolving genetically

00:24:25.220 is minuscule

00:24:26.080 compared to the rate

00:24:26.940 at which we're evolving

00:24:27.800 non-genetically,

00:24:28.920 culturally.

00:24:30.440 Yeah.

00:24:31.100 And changing tack

00:24:32.140 a little bit, Richard,

00:24:32.780 one of the things

00:24:33.260 I actually,

00:24:34.140 I don't think we've talked

00:24:34.740 to you about before

00:24:35.340 is we live at a time

00:24:37.540 where many, many people

00:24:38.420 are concerned about

00:24:39.540 what we call

00:24:41.780 the state of the planet,

00:24:43.000 but what they mean

00:24:43.820 is the changing temperature

00:24:45.060 and the changing environments

00:24:47.060 for both animals

00:24:47.780 and human beings.

00:24:48.980 What are your views

00:24:49.840 on those environmental concerns?

00:24:51.960 I'm not a specialist.

00:24:53.140 I worry about it

00:24:54.340 because people

00:24:55.300 that I respect

00:24:55.860 worry about it.

00:24:57.340 I think it probably

00:25:00.260 is a dangerous problem

00:25:03.320 and one that needs

00:25:04.380 to be sorted,

00:25:05.280 but you'd have to ask

00:25:06.040 somebody else

00:25:06.620 who is an expert.

00:25:08.420 on it.

00:25:09.860 So, yeah,

00:25:10.940 I mean,

00:25:11.200 which is absolutely

00:25:12.080 fair enough.

00:25:13.240 I mean,

00:25:13.960 when I was reading

00:25:15.180 your book,

00:25:15.680 what I was thinking

00:25:16.540 about a great deal

00:25:17.540 is extinction.

00:25:20.040 And we talk,

00:25:21.240 every time that I read,

00:25:22.660 because I have a passion

00:25:23.900 for the natural world,

00:25:24.700 I read about these

00:25:25.560 huge amounts of animals

00:25:27.380 that are going extinct.

00:25:28.820 How much of extinction

00:25:32.000 is perfectly natural

00:25:33.380 and that's just the way

00:25:35.140 it works

00:25:36.460 and how much of it

00:25:37.900 is caused

00:25:38.460 by human beings?

00:25:41.200 Richard Leakey

00:25:41.940 wrote a book

00:25:42.460 called

00:25:42.720 The Sixth Extinction,

00:25:43.840 which suggests

00:25:44.380 he looked at

00:25:45.080 the other extinctions

00:25:45.860 like the one

00:25:46.700 that killed the dinosaurs

00:25:47.620 and the Permian one

00:25:49.020 earlier on

00:25:49.640 and said that

00:25:51.060 man-made extinction

00:25:53.800 is the sixth one

00:25:55.240 and is just as bad

00:25:56.520 as the others.

00:25:57.080 I think it's tragic.

00:26:01.280 Some people say,

00:26:02.300 well, it's the way of nature,

00:26:03.560 it's happened before,

00:26:04.360 it'll happen again

00:26:05.140 and it sort of clears the decks

00:26:07.680 for a new evolution

00:26:08.400 and things.

00:26:09.360 But I would be very,

00:26:11.640 very sad to lose

00:26:12.820 tigers and rhinos

00:26:15.980 and elephants

00:26:16.860 because they've been evolving

00:26:20.760 for so long

00:26:21.540 and they've built up

00:26:23.100 their evolution

00:26:24.800 in such a detailed way

00:26:27.100 for so long.

00:26:29.740 I mean, I think it's tragic

00:26:31.760 that the dinosaurs went,

00:26:33.100 but of course,

00:26:34.220 we owe our existence

00:26:34.920 to the fact

00:26:35.380 that they went.

00:26:36.100 And I would love

00:26:39.780 to see extinct animals

00:26:41.780 brought back

00:26:42.420 if it could be done

00:26:43.340 and there are people

00:26:44.220 working on bringing back

00:26:45.300 woolly mammoths

00:26:46.020 and thylacines

00:26:47.360 and things

00:26:48.200 and good luck to them.

00:26:49.460 I hope they succeed.

00:26:50.840 Really?

00:26:51.240 So you would be

00:26:52.360 fully supportive

00:26:54.040 of somebody bringing back

00:26:55.100 a saber-toothed tiger,

00:26:56.140 for example?

00:26:56.960 Absolutely, yes.

00:26:58.160 Yes.

00:26:58.760 Richard would like

00:26:59.600 to see Jurassic Park

00:27:01.220 play out on the streets

00:27:02.240 of London

00:27:02.640 before his time is up.

00:27:04.300 I mean, yeah,

00:27:04.920 it'd be fun.

00:27:06.080 But what would you say

00:27:07.460 to those people

00:27:08.040 who go,

00:27:08.260 well, look,

00:27:08.600 these animals

00:27:09.200 went extinct for a reason.

00:27:10.640 These are humans

00:27:11.520 playing God.

00:27:13.340 Well, yes.

00:27:15.440 I mean,

00:27:17.000 playing God

00:27:17.680 doesn't bother me at all.

00:27:20.080 Went extinct for a reason.

00:27:22.160 That doesn't mean

00:27:23.020 we shouldn't bring them back.

00:27:25.220 I mean,

00:27:26.340 saber-tooths

00:27:27.300 were not all,

00:27:28.140 I mean,

00:27:28.400 they were no doubt frightening,

00:27:29.740 but no more frightening

00:27:30.500 than a tiger or a lion.

00:27:32.340 They're actually

00:27:32.700 a little bit smaller

00:27:33.500 than a tiger or a lion.

00:27:35.900 And why is it

00:27:36.600 a lot of the time

00:27:37.200 that these animals

00:27:37.880 go extinct?

00:27:38.680 Is it for the reasons

00:27:39.780 that we think

00:27:40.420 that they're not suited

00:27:41.260 to their environment

00:27:42.120 or is there a multitude

00:27:44.020 of different reasons?

00:27:44.860 Multiple of different reasons.

00:27:46.580 Sometimes it's a major catastrophe,

00:27:48.140 like in the case

00:27:48.660 of the dinosaurs.

00:27:49.620 Sometimes it's that

00:27:50.360 it's that their climate

00:27:53.380 or other things

00:27:54.520 change their environment,

00:27:55.660 change their habitat

00:27:56.480 so they can't exist

00:27:58.380 anymore.

00:27:59.360 Sometimes their main food

00:28:01.720 goes extinct,

00:28:02.780 so they go extinct.

00:28:03.620 There are all sorts

00:28:03.980 of different reasons.

00:28:04.800 Sometimes it's a plague.

00:28:06.140 And what are the

00:28:06.560 interesting things

00:28:07.060 you actually talked about

00:28:07.920 in your book,

00:28:08.560 which I don't think

00:28:09.420 gets spoken about enough,

00:28:10.860 and we see it in London

00:28:11.860 with the grey squirrel

00:28:13.020 and the parakeets

00:28:13.980 as invasive species?

00:28:15.920 Yes.

00:28:16.520 The red squirrel

00:28:18.440 is being driven

00:28:19.960 extinct in Britain

00:28:21.060 by the grey squirrel,

00:28:22.340 which is introduced

00:28:23.020 from America

00:28:23.760 by a 19th century

00:28:25.560 Duke of Bedford

00:28:26.420 at a time when

00:28:27.920 people didn't really

00:28:28.760 think about those things.

00:28:29.820 And he thought

00:28:30.240 it would be rather fun

00:28:31.080 to introduce

00:28:31.620 this little grey creature.

00:28:33.660 And he not only

00:28:34.620 introduced the grey squirrel

00:28:36.100 into his own estate,

00:28:37.240 but he presented grey squirrels

00:28:38.740 to other aristocratic friends

00:28:40.440 around the country.

00:28:41.980 And they're driving

00:28:43.620 the red squirrel extinct.

00:28:46.080 Partly by competition,

00:28:47.600 partly because

00:28:48.220 there's a disease

00:28:50.360 called squirrel pox,

00:28:51.420 which they're relatively

00:28:53.260 immune to,

00:28:54.180 having spent thousands

00:28:57.680 of years in America

00:28:59.180 getting immune to it,

00:29:00.200 and the red squirrel

00:29:01.040 is not.

00:29:02.400 And so red squirrels

00:29:04.400 are now confined

00:29:05.320 to a few places

00:29:06.400 in the north,

00:29:07.940 and even they're

00:29:09.180 being encroached

00:29:10.560 upon there.

00:29:11.460 Just kind of reverse

00:29:12.340 colonization,

00:29:13.320 by the way you've

00:29:13.860 described it.

00:29:14.340 Yes.

00:29:14.700 Richard,

00:29:17.000 you alluded a couple

00:29:18.040 of times to

00:29:18.960 the extinction

00:29:19.960 of the dinosaurs.

00:29:21.440 I thought actually

00:29:22.380 just for a lot

00:29:23.720 of young people,

00:29:24.520 and it would be

00:29:25.180 interesting to hear

00:29:25.820 Richard Dawkins

00:29:26.800 explain why

00:29:27.740 the dinosaurs

00:29:28.360 died out.

00:29:29.500 Can you talk us

00:29:30.960 through that whole process?

00:29:32.080 Well, it's pretty

00:29:32.900 clear now

00:29:33.580 that a huge

00:29:35.460 meteorite

00:29:36.740 or comet

00:29:37.540 hit the Earth

00:29:39.260 at a gigantic

00:29:41.140 relative speed.

00:29:42.100 I mean,

00:29:42.440 colossal relative speed,

00:29:43.480 tens of thousands

00:29:44.200 of miles per hour,

00:29:45.860 and an enormous

00:29:46.760 amount of energy

00:29:47.540 was released,

00:29:48.520 tidal waves,

00:29:50.080 great clouds

00:29:50.940 of dust

00:29:52.720 blocked out

00:29:53.760 the sun

00:29:54.160 for a large

00:29:55.500 number of years.

00:29:57.200 And so

00:29:58.780 a great majority

00:30:00.560 of species

00:30:01.100 went extinct,

00:30:01.880 including all

00:30:02.660 the dinosaurs

00:30:03.180 except birds,

00:30:04.480 which are dinosaurs.

00:30:05.440 and much

00:30:08.500 else besides.

00:30:09.720 And mammals

00:30:10.360 survived,

00:30:11.680 a few mammals

00:30:12.420 survived,

00:30:13.260 probably because

00:30:14.340 they were perhaps

00:30:15.500 hibernating underground,

00:30:17.140 something like that.

00:30:17.960 And so they came out

00:30:18.840 and then started

00:30:20.300 to blossom

00:30:21.560 into all

00:30:24.700 the different

00:30:25.040 species

00:30:25.380 that we know

00:30:26.300 today.

00:30:28.300 So that

00:30:29.100 was a major

00:30:29.840 catastrophe,

00:30:30.620 but it isn't always

00:30:31.520 major catastrophes.

00:30:32.520 It can be

00:30:33.060 slower than that.

00:30:34.600 And the impact

00:30:35.200 crater,

00:30:35.660 am I right

00:30:35.980 in thinking

00:30:36.320 that's what

00:30:36.800 the Caribbean

00:30:37.320 basin is,

00:30:38.120 basically?

00:30:38.660 It seems to have

00:30:40.540 hit in the

00:30:41.180 Yucatán,

00:30:42.100 in the

00:30:43.680 isthmus

00:30:44.320 between North

00:30:44.960 and South

00:30:45.300 America.

00:30:46.920 And

00:30:47.140 there's good

00:30:50.420 evidence for that.

00:30:51.720 And the evidence

00:30:52.500 for it

00:30:52.820 is very strong.

00:30:55.600 The geological

00:30:56.280 evidence is very

00:30:56.920 strong.

00:30:57.620 And why

00:30:58.100 did birds

00:30:58.960 survive?

00:31:01.460 I don't know

00:31:02.360 why.

00:31:03.120 I mean,

00:31:03.460 the ancestors

00:31:04.000 of birds

00:31:04.440 survived.

00:31:04.780 I don't

00:31:05.960 know.

00:31:06.340 Maybe

00:31:06.680 just something

00:31:07.320 happened to

00:31:08.980 be the

00:31:09.200 ancestors

00:31:09.480 of birds.

00:31:11.020 There may

00:31:11.740 have been

00:31:12.000 a particular

00:31:12.520 reason why

00:31:13.100 they did.

00:31:13.800 I guess

00:31:14.080 the reason

00:31:15.220 I ask

00:31:15.660 is you're

00:31:17.160 describing

00:31:17.620 giant tsunamis

00:31:19.100 and nuclear

00:31:20.220 winter

00:31:20.720 effectively.

00:31:24.160 How would

00:31:24.860 a bird

00:31:25.240 survive?

00:31:25.640 I have no

00:31:26.260 idea.

00:31:26.720 They wouldn't

00:31:27.240 have been

00:31:27.560 exactly what

00:31:28.500 you call

00:31:28.800 birds.

00:31:29.120 but yes,

00:31:31.020 I don't

00:31:31.960 know.

00:31:33.500 That's

00:31:34.020 really

00:31:34.240 interesting.

00:31:35.480 So birds

00:31:37.220 are a

00:31:37.520 dinosaur.

00:31:38.600 Now,

00:31:39.040 excuse me,

00:31:39.580 this may

00:31:39.880 seem like

00:31:40.240 an ignorant

00:31:40.580 question.

00:31:41.540 I've heard

00:31:42.300 time and

00:31:42.720 time again

00:31:43.060 that crocodiles

00:31:43.920 are very

00:31:44.480 closely related

00:31:45.420 to dinosaurs.

00:31:46.040 Is that

00:31:46.560 accurate?

00:31:47.660 Well,

00:31:47.920 not that,

00:31:48.380 no,

00:31:48.720 not that

00:31:49.180 close.

00:31:49.760 I mean,

00:31:50.080 they are

00:31:50.760 reptiles in

00:31:52.580 the same

00:31:52.920 region of

00:31:54.280 the reptiles,

00:31:55.560 but birds

00:31:56.360 are much

00:31:56.660 closer in

00:31:57.160 the sense

00:31:57.800 that there

00:31:58.840 are animals

00:31:59.420 that you

00:31:59.780 would call

00:32:00.280 dinosaurs,

00:32:01.300 definitely

00:32:01.640 you would

00:32:02.140 call dinosaurs,

00:32:03.000 which are

00:32:03.400 closer cousins

00:32:04.440 to birds

00:32:05.180 than they

00:32:05.760 are to other

00:32:06.340 things that

00:32:06.720 you would

00:32:06.920 call dinosaurs.

00:32:07.920 And so

00:32:08.140 what that

00:32:09.260 means is

00:32:09.720 that birds

00:32:10.160 spring from

00:32:10.820 the middle

00:32:11.220 of the

00:32:11.520 dinosaurs

00:32:11.960 rather than

00:32:12.640 being on

00:32:12.940 the outside

00:32:13.420 of the

00:32:13.740 dinosaurs.

00:32:14.360 Crocodiles

00:32:14.760 you could

00:32:15.000 push on

00:32:15.340 the outside

00:32:15.820 of the

00:32:16.140 dinosaurs.

00:32:17.340 Okay,

00:32:17.820 so the

00:32:18.240 birds are

00:32:18.660 coming from

00:32:19.020 the middle.

00:32:19.520 And are

00:32:20.340 there any

00:32:20.600 type of,

00:32:21.200 which bird

00:32:22.280 do you know

00:32:22.660 is a

00:32:23.120 closest

00:32:23.520 relation to

00:32:24.380 that middle

00:32:24.980 of the

00:32:25.280 dinosaurs?

00:32:25.900 All the

00:32:26.560 same.

00:32:27.080 All the

00:32:27.440 same?

00:32:27.720 Yes,

00:32:27.900 because they

00:32:28.260 all descended

00:32:29.080 from a

00:32:29.460 common

00:32:29.640 ancestor,

00:32:30.820 which would

00:32:32.380 have been

00:32:32.940 called a

00:32:33.300 bird.

00:32:34.120 Ah,

00:32:34.800 and do we

00:32:35.820 have a name

00:32:36.160 for this

00:32:36.440 particular

00:32:36.800 common

00:32:37.120 ancestor?

00:32:37.820 No,

00:32:38.140 we don't

00:32:38.360 know.

00:32:38.760 I mean,

00:32:39.440 there is a

00:32:40.440 famous fossil,

00:32:41.600 Archaeopteryx,

00:32:42.340 which is

00:32:42.680 thought to be

00:32:43.120 close to

00:32:43.600 the common

00:32:44.220 ancestor,

00:32:44.740 but it

00:32:44.960 probably isn't

00:32:45.420 actually the

00:32:45.900 common

00:32:46.080 ancestor.

00:32:47.000 So,

00:32:47.400 and they

00:32:47.700 all sprang

00:32:48.340 from the

00:32:48.660 common

00:32:48.840 ancestor.

00:32:49.740 And at

00:32:50.560 what point

00:32:51.260 did they

00:32:51.960 then,

00:32:52.500 what point

00:32:53.800 was the

00:32:54.280 main branch

00:32:54.960 where one

00:32:56.520 became a

00:32:57.120 predator,

00:32:57.540 one became

00:32:57.940 a prey,

00:32:58.400 is that how

00:32:59.440 it works,

00:33:00.080 or does it

00:33:00.960 work in a

00:33:01.400 different way

00:33:01.860 when it goes

00:33:02.360 into its

00:33:02.740 own separate

00:33:03.280 branches?

00:33:04.480 I'm not quite

00:33:05.180 sure what you're

00:33:05.700 asking.

00:33:06.440 You don't mean

00:33:07.160 specifically with

00:33:07.820 respect to

00:33:08.240 birds,

00:33:08.500 you mean in

00:33:09.040 general?

00:33:09.220 No,

00:33:09.520 in respect to

00:33:10.200 the birds,

00:33:10.940 in respect to

00:33:11.520 birds.

00:33:12.000 So,

00:33:12.400 how does it,

00:33:13.440 I guess my

00:33:14.120 layman's question

00:33:14.660 is,

00:33:14.920 I'll rephrase

00:33:15.400 that,

00:33:15.820 how does it

00:33:17.020 then split

00:33:17.720 off into

00:33:18.360 the vast

00:33:19.760 variety of

00:33:20.460 bird life

00:33:20.900 that we

00:33:21.160 see today?

00:33:22.020 Oh,

00:33:22.700 okay,

00:33:23.580 I mean,

00:33:23.900 that's a

00:33:24.440 general question

00:33:24.980 about all

00:33:25.520 animals,

00:33:26.140 yes.

00:33:27.620 Well,

00:33:28.540 something happens

00:33:30.180 to separate

00:33:31.120 a species

00:33:31.780 into two

00:33:32.580 different

00:33:33.180 sub-populations,

00:33:36.100 probably a

00:33:36.900 geographical

00:33:37.280 accident of

00:33:37.980 some sort,

00:33:38.800 it could be

00:33:39.460 something like

00:33:40.540 a river

00:33:41.180 changes course,

00:33:43.120 and so the

00:33:43.780 populations are

00:33:44.480 stranded on

00:33:45.080 either side,

00:33:45.860 and so they

00:33:46.180 no longer

00:33:46.660 interbreed with

00:33:47.340 each other

00:33:47.680 because they

00:33:48.060 can't,

00:33:48.540 because they

00:33:48.860 never meet

00:33:49.500 each other.

00:33:50.320 That means

00:33:50.760 they're free

00:33:51.100 to evolve

00:33:51.600 in different

00:33:52.040 directions,

00:33:53.640 and they

00:33:54.220 do,

00:33:55.000 and eventually

00:33:55.600 they evolve

00:33:56.120 so far apart

00:33:57.120 that when

00:33:58.120 eventually they

00:33:59.220 come together

00:33:59.760 again by some

00:34:00.500 other accident,

00:34:01.420 they can't

00:34:01.860 interbreed,

00:34:02.740 so some

00:34:04.280 sort of

00:34:04.620 geographical

00:34:05.300 accident of

00:34:06.260 that sort

00:34:06.740 is one way

00:34:07.940 for it to

00:34:08.280 happen.

00:34:09.080 It could be

00:34:09.580 that,

00:34:10.700 not that a

00:34:11.240 river changes

00:34:11.780 course,

00:34:12.200 but there

00:34:12.440 already is,

00:34:13.680 say,

00:34:14.340 an island off

00:34:15.300 the mainland,

00:34:16.180 and a

00:34:18.460 bird,

00:34:19.500 or yes,

00:34:20.820 maybe a bird

00:34:21.880 gets blown

00:34:22.960 off course

00:34:23.580 and lands

00:34:24.520 on the island

00:34:25.280 and just

00:34:25.700 makes it

00:34:26.120 there and

00:34:26.520 then settles

00:34:27.140 and reproduces

00:34:28.380 and starts

00:34:29.420 a population

00:34:29.980 there.

00:34:30.380 So now we

00:34:30.780 have a

00:34:31.020 population on

00:34:31.620 the island

00:34:32.100 and a

00:34:33.280 population on

00:34:34.640 the mainland

00:34:35.060 and they

00:34:35.680 don't meet.

00:34:37.760 So again,

00:34:38.300 they have the

00:34:39.280 opportunity to

00:34:40.180 evolve in

00:34:41.860 different

00:34:42.140 directions,

00:34:44.200 perhaps because

00:34:45.240 conditions on

00:34:45.880 the island

00:34:46.180 are different,

00:34:46.860 even if it's

00:34:47.400 not.

00:34:47.740 I mean,

00:34:47.860 just by

00:34:48.140 random

00:34:48.500 drift,

00:34:49.380 they can

00:34:49.720 evolve in

00:34:50.320 different

00:34:50.500 directions.

00:34:51.020 And then,

00:34:52.060 when much

00:34:52.560 later they

00:34:53.040 happen to

00:34:53.420 come together

00:34:53.880 again,

00:34:54.600 they've evolved

00:34:55.300 sufficiently apart

00:34:56.980 that they can

00:34:57.500 no longer

00:34:57.960 interbreed and

00:34:58.620 they are now

00:34:59.000 separate species.

00:35:00.400 So that

00:35:00.680 explains,

00:35:01.260 for instance,

00:35:01.740 why the

00:35:02.100 lemur can

00:35:02.560 only be

00:35:03.140 found on

00:35:03.580 the island

00:35:03.920 of

00:35:04.100 Madagascar.

00:35:06.180 Well,

00:35:06.740 lemurs

00:35:07.040 evolved in

00:35:07.660 Madagascar.

00:35:08.460 There were

00:35:09.840 early primates

00:35:11.780 in Madagascar,

00:35:12.860 early primates

00:35:13.620 in Africa

00:35:14.400 when Madagascar

00:35:15.980 split off.

00:35:17.980 And not

00:35:18.800 surprisingly,

00:35:20.200 the ones in

00:35:21.160 Madagascar

00:35:21.800 evolved in a

00:35:22.360 different way

00:35:22.860 from the

00:35:23.080 ones in

00:35:23.380 Africa.

00:35:24.260 So the

00:35:24.440 ones in

00:35:24.720 Africa

00:35:24.940 became

00:35:25.280 monkeys,

00:35:25.740 the ones

00:35:25.980 in Madagascar

00:35:27.260 became

00:35:27.700 lemurs,

00:35:28.280 and they

00:35:28.460 became lots

00:35:28.960 of different

00:35:29.260 sorts of

00:35:29.680 lemurs.

00:35:30.200 They

00:35:30.420 branched and

00:35:30.880 branched and

00:35:31.240 branched,

00:35:31.980 probably because

00:35:32.700 they were

00:35:33.180 isolated within

00:35:34.500 Madagascar,

00:35:35.320 different valleys,

00:35:36.320 different forests,

00:35:39.260 cultivated evolution

00:35:41.080 in different

00:35:41.540 directions within

00:35:42.340 Madagascar.

00:35:42.900 So there are

00:35:43.200 lots of

00:35:43.500 different species

00:35:44.220 of lemur in

00:35:45.420 Madagascar.

00:35:46.480 So how long

00:35:47.280 would this

00:35:47.640 process take

00:35:48.540 to get from

00:35:49.060 a common

00:35:49.420 ancestor to

00:35:50.400 then spring

00:35:50.860 into monkeys,

00:35:51.620 to then go

00:35:52.000 to lemurs,

00:35:53.020 and then to

00:35:53.960 go from a

00:35:55.000 common ancestor

00:35:55.680 of a lemur

00:35:56.180 into the

00:35:56.600 various different

00:35:57.240 ring-tailed

00:35:57.800 lemurs,

00:35:58.200 et cetera?

00:35:58.920 Well,

00:35:59.380 to just

00:35:59.880 diverge into

00:36:01.520 two different

00:36:02.400 reproductively

00:36:03.180 isolated populations

00:36:04.640 that can no

00:36:05.480 longer interbreed

00:36:06.680 with each other,

00:36:07.240 that could

00:36:07.580 take only

00:36:08.440 a few

00:36:09.380 tens of

00:36:09.860 thousands of

00:36:10.360 years,

00:36:10.780 or even

00:36:11.360 less.

00:36:12.300 And once

00:36:12.720 they're separated,

00:36:13.540 they then can

00:36:14.040 go on in

00:36:14.980 different directions

00:36:16.980 and branch

00:36:17.540 and branch

00:36:17.920 and branch

00:36:18.300 and branch

00:36:18.640 and branch.

00:36:19.100 So each

00:36:19.940 separate branch

00:36:20.680 may take

00:36:21.140 only a few

00:36:21.620 thousand years,

00:36:22.960 but when you

00:36:23.460 ask about the

00:36:24.700 production of

00:36:25.600 all the

00:36:26.500 different lemurs,

00:36:27.340 that took

00:36:27.700 millions of

00:36:28.160 years.

00:36:29.080 That's really

00:36:29.480 interesting,

00:36:30.340 because what

00:36:32.620 it then speaks

00:36:34.000 to as well is

00:36:34.800 when you think

00:36:35.260 about unintended

00:36:36.000 consequences is

00:36:37.940 his introduction,

00:36:38.960 for instance,

00:36:39.380 of invasive

00:36:39.840 species like

00:36:40.580 rats.

00:36:41.440 It talks about

00:36:42.140 unintended consequences,

00:36:44.440 for instance,

00:36:44.940 with the grey

00:36:45.440 squirrel introduced

00:36:47.040 into this country

00:36:48.020 and decimated the

00:36:49.060 red squirrel.

00:36:50.100 Does that worry

00:36:51.040 you as a scientist,

00:36:52.420 the fact that

00:36:53.080 we're looking at

00:36:54.500 gene technology

00:36:56.120 now and thinking

00:36:57.600 to yourself,

00:36:58.200 well, we're doing

00:36:59.340 all of these things

00:37:00.240 and we're doing

00:37:00.640 these experiments

00:37:01.380 and these types

00:37:02.080 of therapies,

00:37:02.700 but we don't

00:37:03.220 know what the

00:37:03.660 consequences may

00:37:04.600 be further

00:37:05.520 down the line.

00:37:07.160 Well, as I said,

00:37:07.900 the 19th century

00:37:08.800 Duke of Bedford

00:37:09.600 didn't even think

00:37:11.000 about the

00:37:11.380 consequences,

00:37:12.200 and I think

00:37:13.320 it's up to us

00:37:13.920 to think about

00:37:14.420 the consequences

00:37:15.060 of what we're

00:37:15.720 doing and to

00:37:17.480 try to guess,

00:37:19.320 look ahead and

00:37:20.080 guess what might

00:37:20.740 be the consequences

00:37:21.520 of things that

00:37:22.520 we're doing,

00:37:23.480 because it could

00:37:24.220 be that we

00:37:24.700 haven't a clue

00:37:25.320 what's going to

00:37:25.780 happen, and

00:37:26.540 there is the

00:37:28.080 precautionary

00:37:28.760 principle which

00:37:29.360 says we should

00:37:29.760 be very cautious

00:37:30.460 and careful

00:37:31.460 about what we

00:37:32.500 do, so we

00:37:33.760 don't fall into

00:37:34.540 the same error

00:37:35.980 as the Duke

00:37:36.480 of Bedford.

00:37:37.260 Are we being

00:37:38.020 sufficiently cautious,

00:37:39.400 Richard?

00:37:39.700 I mean, one

00:37:40.160 example people

00:37:40.860 might instantly

00:37:41.620 jump to is we

00:37:43.000 still are not

00:37:43.480 entirely sure

00:37:44.080 about the

00:37:44.400 origins of

00:37:44.900 COVID, and

00:37:45.380 there are some

00:37:45.880 people who

00:37:46.320 quite credibly

00:37:46.940 argue it may

00:37:47.660 have been a

00:37:48.080 gain-of-function

00:37:48.660 research-caused

00:37:50.740 error.

00:37:52.480 Yes.

00:37:52.980 Are we being

00:37:53.380 sufficiently cautious?

00:37:55.720 You're asking

00:37:56.360 me for a value

00:37:56.940 judgment.

00:37:58.060 Yes, I am.

00:37:58.640 I would be

00:37:59.880 I can only

00:38:02.220 say I hope

00:38:03.000 we are, but

00:38:04.660 I mean, who

00:38:04.980 is we?

00:38:05.560 Because we're

00:38:06.120 just a whole

00:38:06.460 lot of

00:38:06.680 different

00:38:06.900 individuals.

00:38:07.700 But humanity.

00:38:08.400 Yes, but

00:38:08.960 humanity is not

00:38:09.680 a single

00:38:10.360 decision-making

00:38:11.040 entity.

00:38:12.080 No.

00:38:12.460 And so there

00:38:13.560 may be plenty

00:38:14.100 of people who

00:38:14.600 are very

00:38:14.940 conscientious and

00:38:15.720 cautious, and

00:38:16.320 some people who

00:38:16.940 are not, and

00:38:17.920 it only takes

00:38:18.720 one individual,

00:38:19.780 or one group

00:38:20.420 of individuals,

00:38:21.760 to be

00:38:22.380 irresponsible, and

00:38:23.400 it can have

00:38:23.960 terrible

00:38:24.800 consequences.

00:38:25.380 Do you have

00:38:25.880 an opinion on

00:38:26.680 the gain-of-function

00:38:28.480 being a

00:38:29.180 potential

00:38:29.480 cause of

00:38:29.900 COVID?

00:38:32.820 No, I'd

00:38:33.840 rather not

00:38:34.340 say.

00:38:35.360 That's a yes.

00:38:38.220 That's very

00:38:38.880 interesting.

00:38:39.660 All right, well,

00:38:40.160 listen, let me

00:38:41.220 ask you some

00:38:41.760 more esoteric

00:38:43.300 questions.

00:38:43.820 One of the

00:38:44.220 things that I

00:38:44.840 see is

00:38:46.680 happening is

00:38:47.260 Jordan Peterson

00:38:47.820 keeps trying to

00:38:48.680 have a discussion

00:38:50.560 with you.

00:38:50.960 I don't know if

00:38:51.280 it's a debate or

00:38:51.980 a conversation, and

00:38:52.840 you tell us that

00:38:53.460 on your America

00:38:54.040 tour that's

00:38:54.460 actually going to

00:38:54.920 happen.

00:38:55.040 Well, yes, I've

00:38:55.920 already had a

00:38:56.920 long talk with

00:38:57.480 him, actually.

00:38:58.540 He came to

00:38:59.040 visit Oxford, and

00:38:59.800 we had a

00:39:00.640 meeting together

00:39:01.880 without an

00:39:02.420 audience, which

00:39:02.900 is a good

00:39:03.200 thing.

00:39:05.180 And that's

00:39:07.060 available, you

00:39:07.980 can listen to

00:39:08.540 it.

00:39:12.020 I don't know

00:39:12.620 what to say.

00:39:13.460 Well, let me

00:39:14.220 ask you a couple

00:39:14.800 of questions just

00:39:15.760 in that more

00:39:17.060 esoteric mindset.

00:39:19.500 Do you think

00:39:20.560 human beings are

00:39:21.500 special?

00:39:24.000 Well, obviously,

00:39:24.560 yes, they

00:39:25.140 are.

00:39:25.580 And what

00:39:25.940 makes them

00:39:26.400 special?

00:39:28.680 Language, culture,

00:39:31.300 technology, a

00:39:34.720 high level of

00:39:35.340 consciousness.

00:39:36.000 I mean, we're

00:39:36.640 hugely special.

00:39:38.820 What does

00:39:39.100 consciousness mean?

00:39:43.180 That's a

00:39:43.740 difficult question.

00:39:45.500 That's why I'm

00:39:45.980 asking.

00:39:46.180 It's something we

00:39:46.860 all know we

00:39:47.620 have, and we

00:39:50.460 take it on

00:39:51.480 trust that other

00:39:52.840 people have it.

00:39:53.460 I believe you

00:39:54.340 must have

00:39:54.700 consciousness

00:39:55.080 because I

00:39:55.620 have it, but I

00:39:56.120 can't prove it.

00:39:57.780 Do animals have

00:39:58.540 consciousness?

00:39:59.600 We are

00:39:59.980 animals.

00:40:01.440 Do non-human

00:40:02.380 animals have

00:40:03.980 consciousness?

00:40:04.160 Yes, I bet they

00:40:07.100 do because it

00:40:09.260 would have been

00:40:09.720 something that

00:40:10.240 evolved and

00:40:11.280 light didn't

00:40:13.580 suddenly come on

00:40:14.680 at some moment

00:40:15.660 when Homo

00:40:17.380 sapiens suddenly

00:40:18.160 burst into

00:40:18.740 existence.

00:40:19.740 So it would be

00:40:20.960 extremely surprising

00:40:21.840 if there were not

00:40:22.420 some consciousness

00:40:23.240 in other mammals.

00:40:26.120 At least.

00:40:26.500 Some consciousness.

00:40:28.300 Do you believe in

00:40:29.140 free will?

00:40:29.560 Do you believe

00:40:32.180 that we have

00:40:33.200 free will?

00:40:34.440 As Christopher

00:40:35.060 Hitchens said,

00:40:35.800 I have no

00:40:36.340 choice.

00:40:40.520 Christopher

00:40:41.000 Hitchens was

00:40:41.500 very good at

00:40:42.220 avoiding answering

00:40:43.100 the question in

00:40:43.860 that way.

00:40:44.200 I just avoided

00:40:44.620 it.

00:40:45.240 I hate that

00:40:45.900 question.

00:40:47.080 I think I'm

00:40:48.700 persuaded by

00:40:49.560 people that I've

00:40:50.560 read that

00:40:52.120 free will is

00:40:56.600 an illusion.

00:40:57.860 But it's a

00:40:58.320 very, very

00:40:58.740 powerful illusion.

00:41:00.000 We all feel

00:41:00.880 as if we've

00:41:01.560 got free will.

00:41:03.300 So you

00:41:04.440 believe that

00:41:05.220 the question

00:41:06.020 I'm asking

00:41:06.560 you now and

00:41:07.860 the answer

00:41:08.280 you're giving

00:41:08.780 me now is

00:41:09.280 predetermined?

00:41:10.700 I'm afraid I

00:41:11.340 do and I find

00:41:11.980 that very hard

00:41:12.560 to stomach.

00:41:13.520 But yes.

00:41:15.140 Well, it is

00:41:15.780 the logical

00:41:16.400 conclusion of

00:41:17.280 your beliefs.

00:41:18.640 I think it is.

00:41:19.440 That view

00:41:19.720 necessarily.

00:41:21.780 So do you

00:41:22.580 think that

00:41:23.120 do you

00:41:26.160 think that

00:41:26.500 I guess

00:41:27.540 here's a

00:41:28.060 question and

00:41:28.580 I don't mean

00:41:29.140 it as some

00:41:29.620 kind of got

00:41:30.020 you but do

00:41:30.460 you think

00:41:30.860 that to

00:41:31.240 believe that

00:41:33.560 people have

00:41:34.280 free will

00:41:34.960 is unscientific?

00:41:40.320 No.

00:41:41.660 Not

00:41:42.200 necessarily.

00:41:45.180 I wouldn't

00:41:45.960 say that.

00:41:47.260 Why not?

00:41:50.100 I think

00:41:50.840 because I

00:41:51.700 don't know

00:41:52.340 enough.

00:41:53.120 I'd prefer

00:41:56.940 not to say

00:41:57.760 something as

00:41:58.460 dogmatic as

00:41:59.400 that.

00:41:59.800 Sure.

00:42:00.340 I guess what

00:42:01.000 I'm asking

00:42:01.480 is if

00:42:03.160 if we are

00:42:06.960 the sum

00:42:07.600 total of

00:42:08.220 our genetics

00:42:08.800 and our

00:42:09.240 learned

00:42:09.460 behaviors and

00:42:10.140 our life

00:42:10.500 experiences and

00:42:11.280 all of those

00:42:11.780 things then

00:42:14.420 by definition

00:42:17.900 if you don't

00:42:18.580 believe something

00:42:19.280 other than

00:42:19.940 that you

00:42:21.620 don't you

00:42:22.380 wouldn't have

00:42:23.220 there's no

00:42:23.600 scientific

00:42:24.020 explanation for

00:42:24.880 free will

00:42:25.300 right?

00:42:26.560 There are

00:42:27.180 people who

00:42:27.620 think that

00:42:28.220 quantum

00:42:29.260 uncertainty

00:42:29.900 is the

00:42:31.600 get out

00:42:32.100 and physicists

00:42:34.440 I've talked to

00:42:35.100 say that

00:42:35.480 isn't the

00:42:35.940 case but I'm

00:42:37.480 not enough of a

00:42:38.140 physicist to

00:42:38.700 judge that.

00:42:39.140 What does

00:42:39.440 quantum

00:42:39.760 uncertainty

00:42:40.240 mean?

00:42:41.880 Oh well

00:42:43.740 Heisenberg's

00:42:44.780 indeterminacy

00:42:45.460 principle that

00:42:46.560 there is

00:42:47.820 I'm sure all

00:42:48.800 our viewers are

00:42:49.260 very familiar

00:42:49.760 with the

00:42:50.120 reason.

00:42:51.360 Well I'm not

00:42:52.460 because I'm not

00:42:52.980 a physicist.

00:42:53.640 Nor are they

00:42:54.140 is my point.

00:42:55.080 No I know

00:42:55.640 but it's no

00:42:56.420 good asking

00:42:56.900 me.

00:42:57.700 No I can't

00:42:58.260 I'm not a

00:42:59.000 physicist and

00:42:59.600 I'm not sure

00:43:00.100 even they

00:43:00.580 can.

00:43:02.880 It's a very

00:43:03.760 difficult thing.

00:43:05.720 Well you

00:43:06.020 probably heard

00:43:07.660 the sort of

00:43:08.660 joke of

00:43:10.000 Schrodinger's

00:43:11.620 cat.

00:43:12.440 Yes.

00:43:13.820 And you

00:43:14.660 have a

00:43:15.740 cat and

00:43:17.660 a mechanism

00:43:18.360 which is

00:43:19.380 triggered by

00:43:21.080 a radioactive

00:43:22.740 emission.

00:43:24.460 either the

00:43:28.480 cat is

00:43:28.860 dead or

00:43:29.680 not

00:43:30.600 dead.

00:43:32.040 And according

00:43:32.640 to one

00:43:34.400 interpretation

00:43:34.900 of quantum

00:43:35.840 theory because

00:43:36.640 of the

00:43:37.520 indeterminacy

00:43:38.100 principle the

00:43:39.260 cat is neither

00:43:40.220 alive nor

00:43:40.920 dead until

00:43:41.420 you open

00:43:41.900 the box

00:43:42.440 and look

00:43:43.520 at it.

00:43:45.580 And Schrodinger

00:43:46.760 posited this

00:43:48.240 thought experiment

00:43:49.740 as a way of

00:43:50.340 saying how

00:43:50.740 absurd the

00:43:52.200 Copenhagen

00:43:54.360 interpretation

00:43:55.000 of quantum

00:43:55.480 theory actually

00:43:56.380 is.

00:43:58.360 Because surely

00:43:59.360 common sense

00:44:00.100 says the

00:44:00.400 cat must be

00:44:00.980 alive or

00:44:01.500 dead.

00:44:02.800 And these

00:44:05.140 are profound

00:44:06.100 deep waters

00:44:06.900 which I'm not

00:44:07.600 qualified to

00:44:08.380 wade in.

00:44:08.900 I guess as

00:44:11.160 a very

00:44:12.440 prominent

00:44:12.960 biologist

00:44:14.680 though I

00:44:15.740 think the

00:44:16.680 reason I'm

00:44:17.160 asking you

00:44:17.660 about free

00:44:18.140 will is

00:44:18.620 having read

00:44:20.300 your work

00:44:20.740 extensively and

00:44:21.960 now having

00:44:22.620 asked you the

00:44:23.100 question it

00:44:23.920 seems to me

00:44:24.520 that it

00:44:25.300 inevitably

00:44:25.760 follows from

00:44:26.620 the system

00:44:27.300 of beliefs

00:44:29.480 that you

00:44:29.900 have that

00:44:31.100 as you

00:44:31.600 concede

00:44:32.400 free will

00:44:33.320 can't exist

00:44:35.120 right.

00:44:37.180 So the

00:44:37.940 reason I

00:44:38.320 asked you

00:44:38.820 whether it's

00:44:39.380 unscientific is

00:44:40.140 not because I

00:44:40.540 was trying to

00:44:41.000 get you to

00:44:41.380 say something

00:44:41.940 provocative or

00:44:43.080 dogmatic.

00:44:44.260 I'm just

00:44:45.120 trying to

00:44:46.120 understand how

00:44:48.800 human beings

00:44:49.620 might have

00:44:50.280 free will

00:44:50.920 within the

00:44:53.600 conventional

00:44:54.140 scientific

00:44:54.660 understanding of

00:44:55.440 human realities

00:44:56.720 and evolution

00:44:57.440 and so on.

00:44:57.820 To say that

00:44:58.420 something is

00:44:59.000 unscientific is a

00:45:00.500 pejorative which

00:45:01.260 I wouldn't wish

00:45:01.960 to go into.

00:45:05.520 My private

00:45:07.400 suspicion is

00:45:08.240 that we don't

00:45:09.640 have free

00:45:10.660 will but I

00:45:11.240 wouldn't wish

00:45:11.620 to condemn

00:45:12.960 somebody who

00:45:13.560 thought the

00:45:13.920 opposite.

00:45:15.660 So if we

00:45:16.500 don't have

00:45:16.980 free will

00:45:17.700 that sort

00:45:19.700 of takes

00:45:20.960 apart quite a

00:45:21.920 lot of the

00:45:22.360 things that we

00:45:22.980 do in society

00:45:24.040 like reward

00:45:25.140 and punishment

00:45:25.820 and...

00:45:26.740 Not everybody

00:45:27.320 thinks that.

00:45:28.640 There are some

00:45:29.140 people who

00:45:29.600 claim to be

00:45:31.140 to not

00:45:32.980 believe in

00:45:33.460 free will

00:45:33.920 and yet

00:45:34.240 who do

00:45:34.600 believe that

00:45:35.440 punishment

00:45:36.940 can be

00:45:37.400 justified.

00:45:38.740 I guess

00:45:38.960 what I'm

00:45:39.280 asking is

00:45:39.720 when I go

00:45:40.140 home today

00:45:40.600 to my

00:45:40.960 two-year-old

00:45:41.380 toddler

00:45:41.700 why would

00:45:43.700 I reward

00:45:44.580 or not

00:45:45.680 reward certain

00:45:46.400 behavior if

00:45:47.260 he has no

00:45:47.760 choice?

00:45:48.180 He's doing

00:45:48.840 what he's

00:45:49.280 doing.

00:45:50.000 I think

00:45:50.320 you'd have

00:45:50.640 to talk

00:45:50.940 to a

00:45:51.180 philosopher

00:45:51.440 about that.

00:45:51.980 I share

00:45:54.120 your puzzlement

00:45:55.020 about this

00:45:56.140 whole matter

00:45:57.020 and I don't

00:45:58.300 understand why

00:45:59.140 it is that

00:45:59.680 those philosophers

00:46:00.340 who call

00:46:00.720 themselves

00:46:01.080 compatibilist

00:46:01.940 and you

00:46:02.160 can look

00:46:02.440 that up

00:46:02.940 would

00:46:05.260 nevertheless

00:46:06.440 dispute the

00:46:08.060 view that

00:46:09.040 for example

00:46:11.060 punishment

00:46:11.720 would be

00:46:11.960 the extreme

00:46:12.320 case that

00:46:13.140 you can't

00:46:15.020 punish people

00:46:15.740 because

00:46:16.140 it was

00:46:19.120 the molecules

00:46:19.920 that did it

00:46:20.460 it's not my

00:46:21.000 fault.

00:46:21.960 Right.

00:46:23.180 The reason

00:46:23.800 I'm pressing

00:46:24.920 you on this

00:46:25.520 is A

00:46:26.060 curiosity

00:46:26.760 because you're

00:46:28.260 one of the

00:46:28.700 brightest minds

00:46:29.460 things that

00:46:29.760 our society

00:46:30.560 has produced

00:46:30.980 in a very

00:46:31.280 long time

00:46:31.760 but B

00:46:32.720 because I

00:46:33.220 think this

00:46:33.500 is why

00:46:33.720 Jordan wants

00:46:34.260 to continue

00:46:35.000 to have

00:46:35.400 these discussions

00:46:36.180 with you.

00:46:36.680 Well I don't

00:46:37.020 want to have

00:46:37.340 that discussion

00:46:37.860 that's more

00:46:38.400 important.

00:46:39.160 You may be

00:46:40.520 about to find

00:46:41.200 out that you're

00:46:41.780 going to have

00:46:42.140 it nonetheless

00:46:42.600 I'm afraid.

00:46:43.260 one of the

00:46:47.180 questions I

00:46:48.320 found really

00:46:49.600 interesting

00:46:50.100 reading your

00:46:51.040 book again

00:46:51.580 as somebody

00:46:52.160 who did

00:46:53.160 an arts

00:46:53.500 degree

00:46:53.840 it was

00:46:54.380 wonderful

00:46:54.960 and it

00:46:55.460 made science

00:46:56.100 accessible

00:46:56.680 which I

00:46:57.100 think is a

00:46:57.480 greatest

00:46:57.700 compliment

00:46:58.020 you can

00:46:58.320 pay a

00:46:59.200 scientific

00:46:59.540 book from

00:47:00.300 a layman's

00:47:00.860 perspective

00:47:01.220 of course.

00:47:03.040 How much

00:47:03.980 of things

00:47:05.800 like political

00:47:08.160 opinions or

00:47:09.420 viewpoints or

00:47:10.280 aligning to

00:47:10.960 one particular

00:47:11.720 side left

00:47:12.780 or right

00:47:13.440 or the way

00:47:14.540 that you see

00:47:15.240 the world

00:47:15.820 whether you're

00:47:16.560 more empathetic

00:47:17.460 whether you're

00:47:17.920 more pragmatic

00:47:18.640 for instance

00:47:19.200 how much of

00:47:19.920 that is to do

00:47:20.620 with genetics

00:47:21.300 and your genes

00:47:22.880 or do we know

00:47:24.620 for example?

00:47:25.060 Well it's an

00:47:25.380 interesting question

00:47:26.260 let's look at

00:47:28.780 how you might

00:47:29.280 answer that

00:47:29.760 question.

00:47:31.140 I suppose the

00:47:32.020 favoured way

00:47:32.780 would be to

00:47:33.400 look at

00:47:33.980 partitioning the

00:47:34.900 variants and

00:47:35.500 what that means

00:47:36.080 is you look at

00:47:36.640 variation in

00:47:38.080 anything you like

00:47:38.740 you happen to

00:47:39.500 have chosen

00:47:39.900 political opinion

00:47:40.700 but you could

00:47:41.160 take height

00:47:42.380 or weight

00:47:42.860 or musical

00:47:43.700 ability or

00:47:44.300 mathematical

00:47:44.640 ability

00:47:44.980 anything you

00:47:45.540 like

00:47:45.760 and you can

00:47:46.640 say we've

00:47:47.000 got this

00:47:47.360 population of

00:47:48.140 people who

00:47:49.260 vary in this

00:47:50.540 quality which

00:47:53.580 might be

00:47:53.960 intelligence or

00:47:54.620 it might be

00:47:54.940 musical ability

00:47:55.540 it might be

00:47:56.020 political opinion

00:47:56.660 and so on

00:47:57.100 and you divide

00:47:59.200 them up into

00:47:59.780 those who call

00:48:01.420 themselves left

00:48:02.080 and those who

00:48:02.420 call themselves

00:48:02.820 right

00:48:03.120 those who are

00:48:03.460 good at music

00:48:03.980 and those who

00:48:04.400 bad at music

00:48:04.960 those who good

00:48:05.360 at maths

00:48:05.740 and those who

00:48:06.100 bad at maths

00:48:06.700 and you say

00:48:07.780 is there anything

00:48:09.260 about this group

00:48:10.940 of people

00:48:11.400 genetically different

00:48:12.280 from that group

00:48:13.060 of people

00:48:13.320 are there some

00:48:14.120 genes that as it

00:48:15.260 were label that

00:48:15.980 group of people

00:48:16.520 rather than that

00:48:17.760 group of people

00:48:18.440 and that's analysis

00:48:23.220 of variants in one

00:48:24.200 form or another

00:48:24.800 and one way of

00:48:26.720 doing it one

00:48:27.220 rather powerful way

00:48:27.920 of doing it is

00:48:28.400 twin studies

00:48:29.300 because we know

00:48:30.680 that monozygotic

00:48:32.420 twins identical twins

00:48:33.500 have all the same

00:48:34.200 genes

00:48:34.620 give or take

00:48:36.580 some very very

00:48:37.100 minor differences

00:48:37.780 and we know

00:48:40.080 that fraternal

00:48:41.260 twins

00:48:41.600 non-identical

00:48:43.760 twins

00:48:44.180 don't

00:48:45.440 and we know

00:48:46.720 how much

00:48:47.580 they have

00:48:47.860 in common

00:48:48.460 genetically

00:48:48.900 so if you

00:48:50.020 compare the

00:48:50.840 similarity

00:48:51.500 in political

00:48:52.820 opinion

00:48:53.340 say

00:48:53.720 or musical

00:48:54.220 ability

00:48:54.660 of identical

00:48:56.500 twins

00:48:57.100 versus fraternal

00:48:58.560 twins

00:48:59.020 then

00:49:00.160 if the

00:49:00.880 identical

00:49:01.260 twins

00:49:01.820 are more

00:49:03.820 similar than

00:49:04.380 the fraternal

00:49:04.920 twins

00:49:05.180 that gives

00:49:05.840 you a clue

00:49:06.420 you get a

00:49:07.600 stronger clue

00:49:08.180 if you take

00:49:08.620 that minority

00:49:09.620 of identical

00:49:10.280 twins

00:49:10.800 who happen

00:49:11.660 to have been

00:49:12.020 brought up

00:49:12.460 separately

00:49:12.880 and there

00:49:13.240 are some

00:49:13.660 cases which

00:49:14.260 have been

00:49:14.560 intensively

00:49:15.180 studied

00:49:15.520 there are

00:49:17.480 people who

00:49:17.880 go around

00:49:18.260 looking around

00:49:18.820 the world

00:49:19.180 looking for

00:49:19.620 identical

00:49:19.980 twins

00:49:20.320 who have

00:49:20.520 been separated

00:49:21.080 at birth

00:49:21.500 for one

00:49:21.780 reason or

00:49:22.160 another

00:49:22.460 and there

00:49:23.620 are some

00:49:24.760 dozens of

00:49:25.480 cases that

00:49:26.540 have been

00:49:26.840 studied

00:49:27.360 and then

00:49:29.880 you say

00:49:30.340 and you

00:49:30.840 also look at

00:49:31.480 fraternal

00:49:31.960 twins

00:49:32.220 who have

00:49:32.420 been

00:49:32.560 separated

00:49:33.040 so you've

00:49:33.500 got four

00:49:34.100 categories

00:49:34.560 identical

00:49:35.000 together

00:49:35.520 identical

00:49:36.960 red

00:49:37.440 apart

00:49:37.840 fraternal

00:49:38.400 together

00:49:38.820 fraternal

00:49:39.540 red

00:49:39.740 apart

00:49:40.100 and you

00:49:40.400 do an

00:49:41.200 analysis

00:49:41.580 of those

00:49:42.040 four

00:49:42.320 categories

00:49:42.800 and from

00:49:43.720 that you

00:49:44.040 can calculate

00:49:44.840 the proportion

00:49:46.720 of the

00:49:47.220 variance

00:49:47.860 which can be

00:49:49.080 said to be

00:49:49.500 due to the

00:49:49.940 genes

00:49:50.280 it's called

00:49:50.580 the

00:49:50.740 heritability

00:49:51.540 as opposed

00:49:53.920 to the

00:49:54.700 environment

00:49:55.180 and you

00:49:55.780 can do

00:49:56.060 that for

00:49:56.440 all sorts

00:49:56.860 of different

00:49:57.400 qualities

00:49:58.900 and

00:50:00.060 I don't

00:50:02.380 know

00:50:02.580 whether that

00:50:03.280 it almost

00:50:03.760 certainly

00:50:04.020 has been

00:50:04.380 done

00:50:04.560 for political

00:50:05.020 opinion

00:50:05.460 it's been

00:50:06.360 done

00:50:06.540 for other

00:50:07.080 things

00:50:07.440 like IQ

00:50:08.280 and mathematical

00:50:09.540 ability

00:50:10.040 musical ability

00:50:10.720 and it

00:50:11.940 varies

00:50:12.720 but in

00:50:14.720 almost

00:50:15.060 everything

00:50:15.520 you'll

00:50:15.800 find

00:50:16.020 some

00:50:16.460 genetic

00:50:17.440 component

00:50:17.900 in some

00:50:18.300 cases

00:50:18.480 it's a

00:50:18.680 very

00:50:18.800 powerful

00:50:19.140 genetic

00:50:19.500 component

00:50:19.980 I mean

00:50:20.600 the question

00:50:21.180 it's a slightly

00:50:22.100 controversial

00:50:22.520 but I think

00:50:23.200 it's important

00:50:23.740 to ask

00:50:24.140 is what

00:50:24.420 about

00:50:24.600 sexuality

00:50:25.340 is sexuality

00:50:26.820 a genetic

00:50:27.820 component

00:50:28.280 because

00:50:28.620 people have

00:50:29.640 spoken about

00:50:30.620 this

00:50:30.900 but no

00:50:32.300 gene has

00:50:32.680 ever been

00:50:32.980 found

00:50:33.380 do you mean

00:50:34.060 sexual

00:50:35.060 preference

00:50:36.320 if you're

00:50:38.240 gay

00:50:38.500 yes it's been

00:50:40.480 looked at

00:50:40.920 and there is a

00:50:41.740 strong genetic

00:50:42.260 component

00:50:42.700 to it

00:50:43.040 yes

00:50:43.300 oh really

00:50:44.180 so how so

00:50:45.420 well how so

00:50:47.740 I mean

00:50:47.980 it's just that

00:50:48.700 twin studies

00:50:49.160 have been

00:50:49.700 done

00:50:50.040 and there's

00:50:50.700 a strong

00:50:51.000 tendency

00:50:51.420 for if

00:50:52.280 one identical

00:50:52.900 twin is

00:50:53.520 gay

00:50:53.800 that his

00:50:54.300 twin will

00:50:54.700 be gay

00:50:55.380 even if

00:50:55.800 they're

00:50:55.980 red apart

00:50:56.520 so that

00:50:57.400 suggests

00:50:59.280 that there

00:51:00.140 is a

00:51:00.420 it's not

00:51:01.180 absolute

00:51:01.680 it's not

00:51:02.440 deterministic

00:51:04.460 it's

00:51:05.120 a contribution

00:51:07.100 to the

00:51:07.600 variance

00:51:08.480 and

00:51:10.120 that's

00:51:12.520 all

00:51:12.680 that you

00:51:12.920 can say

00:51:13.320 which is

00:51:14.960 interesting

00:51:15.340 so you

00:51:15.760 you know

00:51:16.180 you're

00:51:16.460 looking at

00:51:16.840 these

00:51:17.100 twins

00:51:17.520 because it

00:51:19.180 then goes

00:51:19.740 back to

00:51:20.260 the point

00:51:20.860 of how

00:51:22.120 much of

00:51:22.680 life is

00:51:23.480 predetermined

00:51:24.680 almost

00:51:25.160 and how

00:51:26.080 much of

00:51:26.540 it is

00:51:26.980 under

00:51:27.460 our

00:51:27.600 not really

00:51:28.280 because

00:51:28.640 this is

00:51:29.400 just one

00:51:29.800 type of

00:51:30.160 predetermination

00:51:30.920 namely

00:51:31.420 genetic

00:51:31.880 you can

00:51:32.380 still believe

00:51:32.820 that everything

00:51:33.260 is predetermined

00:51:34.240 and leave

00:51:35.620 and then

00:51:36.140 ask the

00:51:36.940 sub

00:51:37.160 question

00:51:37.760 how much

00:51:38.200 of that

00:51:38.480 is

00:51:38.680 genetic

00:51:39.180 because

00:51:40.460 it could

00:51:42.300 be that

00:51:42.760 how you're

00:51:45.060 brought up

00:51:45.520 I mean

00:51:45.800 what food

00:51:46.560 you're given

00:51:46.920 what movies

00:51:48.220 you watch

00:51:48.600 all these

00:51:49.160 things could

00:51:49.600 have an

00:51:50.140 effect

00:51:50.460 I guess

00:51:51.380 the reason

00:51:51.680 we're digging

00:51:52.120 into all of

00:51:52.740 this with

00:51:53.020 you Richard

00:51:53.340 is

00:51:53.640 I think

00:51:54.960 it's

00:51:55.140 very

00:51:55.400 I think

00:51:57.000 I don't

00:51:57.520 think I've

00:51:57.880 met anybody

00:51:58.500 who lives

00:51:59.040 their life

00:51:59.640 as if

00:52:00.600 other people

00:52:01.280 don't have

00:52:01.820 free will

00:52:02.300 no I agree

00:52:02.760 with you

00:52:03.100 right

00:52:03.940 so we all

00:52:05.260 live our

00:52:05.620 life assuming

00:52:06.600 that other

00:52:07.080 people have

00:52:07.860 free will

00:52:08.340 even if

00:52:08.840 we don't

00:52:09.580 we ourselves

00:52:11.040 do as well

00:52:11.680 quite

00:52:12.000 but it's

00:52:13.060 easier to

00:52:13.540 see what

00:52:13.880 other people

00:52:14.340 as most

00:52:14.760 things are

00:52:15.260 right

00:52:15.500 so if

00:52:16.840 you behave

00:52:17.340 in a way

00:52:17.780 that is

00:52:18.160 unpleasant

00:52:18.580 for me

00:52:19.160 I'm going

00:52:20.220 to assume

00:52:20.640 you've made

00:52:21.080 that choice

00:52:21.680 in the same

00:52:22.720 way that

00:52:23.040 the reason

00:52:23.400 Francis asked

00:52:24.080 you about

00:52:24.340 politics

00:52:24.700 I assume

00:52:25.320 is that

00:52:26.480 that is an

00:52:28.200 area where

00:52:28.700 people almost

00:52:29.840 always act

00:52:30.860 as if people

00:52:31.660 that they don't

00:52:32.280 agree with

00:52:32.720 or people that

00:52:33.260 they do agree

00:52:33.760 with politically

00:52:34.360 are making

00:52:35.340 a choice

00:52:35.900 you know

00:52:36.540 people who

00:52:37.480 if I'm

00:52:38.260 left wing

00:52:39.080 the people

00:52:39.520 who are on

00:52:39.960 the right

00:52:40.380 there

00:52:40.760 they've made

00:52:41.480 a choice

00:52:41.960 to be evil

00:52:42.740 and if I'm

00:52:43.720 right wing

00:52:44.220 then the people

00:52:44.720 on the left

00:52:45.280 have made

00:52:45.660 the choice

00:52:46.200 to be evil

00:52:47.420 or stupid

00:52:47.920 or whatever

00:52:48.320 the right

00:52:49.460 language would

00:52:49.960 be

00:52:50.200 so it's

00:52:51.340 interesting

00:52:51.840 to me

00:52:52.400 that I

00:52:53.520 think we

00:52:53.960 live increasingly

00:52:54.960 in a world

00:52:55.640 that is

00:52:56.160 deterministic

00:52:57.980 people

00:52:58.720 are taught

00:52:59.940 to think

00:53:00.420 about the

00:53:00.860 world in

00:53:01.180 that way

00:53:01.520 and the

00:53:01.860 logical

00:53:02.200 conclusion

00:53:02.740 of their

00:53:03.120 beliefs

00:53:03.460 is that

00:53:04.280 and yet

00:53:05.300 we don't

00:53:05.780 seem to

00:53:06.140 actually

00:53:06.580 live in

00:53:07.140 that world

00:53:07.780 on a

00:53:08.520 psychological

00:53:09.560 way

00:53:09.940 no you're

00:53:09.960 quite right

00:53:10.340 we don't

00:53:10.780 we don't

00:53:11.840 and we

00:53:12.540 we may

00:53:14.020 philosophically

00:53:14.820 believe that

00:53:15.720 we are

00:53:16.060 deterministic

00:53:16.900 but yet

00:53:17.380 we behave

00:53:18.220 as though

00:53:18.560 and we

00:53:19.180 our whole

00:53:19.880 psychology

00:53:20.420 is geared

00:53:21.580 to the

00:53:22.460 assumption

00:53:22.760 that we're

00:53:23.180 not

00:53:23.460 and that

00:53:24.020 we and

00:53:24.400 other people

00:53:24.880 are free

00:53:25.760 and what

00:53:26.580 do you

00:53:26.760 make of

00:53:27.100 that

00:53:27.460 because

00:53:27.640 that's

00:53:27.860 quite a

00:53:28.360 contradiction

00:53:28.660 but that's

00:53:30.820 because you

00:53:31.200 haven't

00:53:31.740 answered it

00:53:32.240 it's quite

00:53:32.740 a contradiction

00:53:33.160 I will not

00:53:34.140 answer it

00:53:34.520 nor will

00:53:34.880 anybody else

00:53:35.460 in any

00:53:36.060 satisfactory

00:53:36.440 way

00:53:36.980 it's a

00:53:39.420 philosophically

00:53:40.100 difficult

00:53:40.460 problem

00:53:40.940 because the

00:53:42.140 thing that's

00:53:42.540 interesting

00:53:42.940 if we look

00:53:44.360 at it

00:53:44.620 is so

00:53:45.080 we believe

00:53:45.740 that we're

00:53:46.200 in control

00:53:46.740 of our

00:53:47.100 own destiny

00:53:47.560 but if

00:53:47.880 you look

00:53:48.140 at for

00:53:48.400 instance

00:53:48.640 somebody

00:53:49.040 who has

00:53:49.420 schizophrenia

00:53:50.120 a very

00:53:51.320 profound

00:53:51.680 mental

00:53:52.020 illness

00:53:52.300 we accept

00:53:52.980 that they

00:53:53.360 are not

00:53:53.760 in control

00:53:54.420 because of

00:53:55.740 the illness

00:53:56.400 so

00:53:58.180 yes

00:53:59.120 you're

00:53:59.500 right

00:53:59.800 it is

00:54:00.860 in

00:54:02.420 courts

00:54:02.960 of law

00:54:03.560 insanity

00:54:04.820 is

00:54:05.380 grounds

00:54:06.080 for

00:54:06.420 getting

00:54:06.800 off

00:54:07.120 but in

00:54:07.820 a way

00:54:08.420 you could

00:54:08.720 say that

00:54:09.240 anybody

00:54:10.540 who's

00:54:11.000 done

00:54:11.160 a murder

00:54:11.900 has the

00:54:12.400 same

00:54:12.700 grounds

00:54:13.400 for getting

00:54:13.780 off

00:54:13.980 as somebody

00:54:14.360 who does

00:54:14.700 it by

00:54:14.900 reason

00:54:15.140 of insanity

00:54:16.020 you could

00:54:16.880 make that

00:54:17.260 case

00:54:17.580 and I

00:54:18.520 don't

00:54:18.920 think

00:54:19.220 that

00:54:19.480 anybody

00:54:21.320 I don't

00:54:21.740 think

00:54:21.880 lawyers

00:54:22.180 have

00:54:22.360 woken

00:54:22.540 up

00:54:22.760 to

00:54:22.880 that

00:54:23.080 possibility

00:54:23.660 because

00:54:25.580 if we

00:54:26.640 can say

00:54:27.060 that one

00:54:27.480 person

00:54:27.840 is

00:54:28.020 profoundly

00:54:30.140 unwell

00:54:30.800 mentally

00:54:31.340 therefore

00:54:31.720 they're not

00:54:32.220 accountable

00:54:34.460 for their

00:54:35.720 own actions

00:54:36.800 absolutely

00:54:37.220 they cannot

00:54:37.680 be accountable

00:54:38.180 but nobody

00:54:38.420 is responsible

00:54:38.880 for their

00:54:39.120 actions

00:54:39.360 is what

00:54:39.580 you're

00:54:39.720 saying

00:54:39.960 that's

00:54:40.960 a logical

00:54:41.440 conclusion

00:54:42.120 of the

00:54:42.500 world

00:54:42.720 view

00:54:42.900 that's

00:54:43.500 why I'm

00:54:43.800 grilling you

00:54:44.220 on this

00:54:44.500 it's not

00:54:44.920 because

00:54:45.140 you're

00:54:45.340 asking

00:54:45.580 the wrong

00:54:46.020 person

00:54:46.580 no I

00:54:48.020 don't

00:54:48.240 believe

00:54:48.440 I am

00:54:48.780 actually

00:54:49.120 I don't

00:54:49.920 believe

00:54:50.100 I am

00:54:50.380 at all

00:54:50.940 the reason

00:54:51.620 I'm

00:54:51.920 asking

00:54:52.200 you

00:54:52.660 is that

00:54:53.660 we live

00:54:54.200 in a

00:54:54.460 world

00:54:54.740 in which

00:54:55.300 science

00:54:56.260 has won

00:54:56.860 science

00:54:58.920 is what

00:54:59.700 we teach

00:55:00.140 our children

00:55:00.600 in school

00:55:01.200 science

00:55:02.080 is how

00:55:02.520 we think

00:55:02.940 about

00:55:03.340 reality

00:55:04.160 science

00:55:04.660 is how

00:55:05.000 we think

00:55:05.440 about

00:55:05.860 everything

00:55:06.760 and yet

00:55:08.300 what

00:55:08.860 the point

00:55:09.340 I'm

00:55:09.660 making

00:55:09.940 to you

00:55:10.340 is

00:55:10.560 we all

00:55:11.320 live

00:55:11.500 our

00:55:11.700 lives

00:55:11.980 in a

00:55:12.260 way

00:55:12.620 that

00:55:13.320 is

00:55:13.500 counter

00:55:14.020 to

00:55:14.340 that

00:55:14.660 very

00:55:15.020 belief

00:55:15.340 system

00:55:15.780 quite

00:55:16.280 directly

00:55:16.740 is that

00:55:17.820 not

00:55:18.180 evidence

00:55:18.700 for example

00:55:19.520 of the

00:55:19.940 fact

00:55:20.280 that

00:55:21.180 if we

00:55:22.200 instinctively

00:55:23.020 all

00:55:23.420 know

00:55:23.900 that

00:55:24.480 other

00:55:24.960 people

00:55:25.320 do

00:55:25.620 have

00:55:25.860 a

00:55:26.020 choice

00:55:26.420 and

00:55:26.780 we

00:55:27.060 have

00:55:27.300 a

00:55:27.440 choice

00:55:27.660 about

00:55:27.920 our

00:55:28.100 own

00:55:28.280 decisions

00:55:28.640 at

00:55:28.880 some

00:55:29.040 level

00:55:29.340 does that

00:55:30.140 not

00:55:30.380 put

00:55:30.740 into

00:55:30.960 question

00:55:31.520 some

00:55:31.920 of

00:55:32.120 the

00:55:33.060 underlying

00:55:33.620 assumptions

00:55:34.060 of that

00:55:34.420 worldview

00:55:34.760 I don't

00:55:38.000 think so

00:55:38.720 because

00:55:39.220 the

00:55:40.660 worldview

00:55:41.120 you're

00:55:41.420 talking

00:55:41.740 about

00:55:42.040 the

00:55:42.200 scientific

00:55:42.500 worldview

00:55:42.860 is

00:55:43.340 looking

00:55:45.080 at

00:55:45.460 the

00:55:46.780 world

00:55:47.280 looking

00:55:47.720 at

00:55:47.900 physics

00:55:48.240 looking

00:55:48.580 at

00:55:48.740 biology

00:55:49.160 looking

00:55:49.540 at

00:55:49.740 genetics

00:55:50.140 looking

00:55:50.520 at

00:55:51.300 everything

00:55:53.420 that you

00:55:54.220 can measure

00:55:54.680 about

00:55:55.040 the

00:55:55.240 real

00:55:55.440 world

00:55:55.800 and

00:55:56.000 is

00:55:56.180 not

00:55:56.560 directly

00:55:59.420 talking

00:56:01.080 about

00:56:01.540 this

00:56:01.920 free

00:56:02.200 will

00:56:02.540 question

00:56:04.060 so

00:56:05.300 it's

00:56:05.820 not

00:56:06.000 undermining

00:56:06.520 the

00:56:07.240 scientific

00:56:07.840 worldview

00:56:08.520 I don't

00:56:09.000 think

00:56:09.400 it's

00:56:11.120 is it

00:56:11.980 not

00:56:12.140 undermined

00:56:12.600 so

00:56:12.800 the

00:56:13.160 reason

00:56:13.340 I'm

00:56:13.560 saying

00:56:13.780 this

00:56:13.980 is

00:56:14.120 the

00:56:14.280 scientific

00:56:14.680 worldview

00:56:15.220 as

00:56:16.480 you

00:56:16.720 concede

00:56:17.300 leads

00:56:17.800 to

00:56:18.000 a

00:56:18.160 deterministic

00:56:18.780 worldview

00:56:19.240 almost

00:56:20.500 certainly

00:56:21.040 not

00:56:21.700 that

00:56:22.060 you

00:56:22.220 say

00:56:22.440 that

00:56:22.600 there

00:56:22.760 are

00:56:22.860 some

00:56:23.040 people

00:56:23.300 who

00:56:23.440 have

00:56:23.580 a

00:56:23.720 quantum

00:56:24.000 best

00:56:24.340 right

00:56:24.680 so

00:56:25.500 then

00:56:25.820 if

00:56:27.140 you

00:56:27.300 undermine

00:56:27.760 the

00:56:27.940 deterministic

00:56:28.560 worldview

00:56:28.920 then

00:56:29.380 you're

00:56:29.580 necessarily

00:56:30.020 undermining

00:56:30.560 the

00:56:30.700 scientific

00:56:31.020 or

00:56:31.240 you

00:56:31.360 just

00:56:31.600 follow

00:56:31.820 the

00:56:32.020 chain

00:56:32.260 backwards

00:56:32.860 but

00:56:33.440 that

00:56:33.560 doesn't

00:56:33.900 mean

00:56:34.160 that

00:56:34.400 if

00:56:34.640 you're

00:56:34.860 studying

00:56:35.280 say

00:56:35.960 the

00:56:36.140 growth

00:56:36.420 of

00:56:36.600 wheat

00:56:36.840 and

00:56:37.000 you're

00:56:37.220 measuring

00:56:37.800 which

00:56:38.280 fertilizer

00:56:38.900 is

00:56:39.940 it doesn't

00:56:41.580 undermine

00:56:41.940 that

00:56:42.300 you can

00:56:42.600 go on

00:56:42.980 measuring

00:56:43.240 things

00:56:43.600 and go

00:56:43.880 on

00:56:44.020 looking

00:56:44.200 at the

00:56:44.420 effects

00:56:44.740 of

00:56:44.980 experiments

00:56:46.580 the

00:56:47.920 the

00:56:47.960 fact

00:56:48.200 that

00:56:48.400 you're

00:56:48.860 you're

00:56:49.320 philosophically

00:56:50.280 deeply

00:56:51.680 mired

00:56:52.180 in

00:56:52.400 this

00:56:52.640 problem

00:56:53.300 of

00:56:53.540 determinism

00:56:54.340 doesn't

00:56:54.700 alter

00:56:54.960 the

00:56:55.160 fact

00:56:55.320 that

00:56:55.440 you

00:56:55.540 can

00:56:55.680 measure

00:56:55.900 things

00:56:56.220 and

00:56:56.380 count

00:56:56.620 things

00:56:57.040 totally

00:56:57.440 agree

00:56:57.660 and

00:56:58.180 so

00:56:58.780 I

00:56:59.280 don't

00:56:59.460 think

00:56:59.620 it doesn't

00:57:00.420 affect

00:57:00.900 your

00:57:01.180 ability

00:57:01.580 to

00:57:01.900 measure

00:57:02.180 how

00:57:02.440 wheat

00:57:02.700 grows

00:57:03.040 with

00:57:03.280 different

00:57:03.620 types

00:57:03.880 of

00:57:04.040 fertilizer

00:57:04.640 but

00:57:05.380 I

00:57:05.520 think

00:57:05.840 I'm

00:57:07.960 not

00:57:08.100 saying

00:57:08.260 you

00:57:08.420 have

00:57:08.540 made

00:57:08.680 this

00:57:08.860 claim

00:57:09.020 but

00:57:09.200 a

00:57:09.340 lot

00:57:09.440 of

00:57:09.560 people

00:57:09.840 who

00:57:10.360 have

00:57:10.480 advanced

00:57:10.920 that

00:57:11.260 scientific

00:57:12.080 worldview

00:57:12.520 have

00:57:12.820 done

00:57:13.040 so

00:57:13.260 in

00:57:13.400 a

00:57:13.500 kind

00:57:13.640 of

00:57:13.800 all

00:57:14.100 encompassing

00:57:14.760 way

00:57:14.960 they

00:57:15.160 would

00:57:15.340 say

00:57:15.640 well

00:57:16.300 you

00:57:16.460 know

00:57:16.560 there's

00:57:16.800 no

00:57:16.940 such

00:57:17.180 thing

00:57:17.460 as

00:57:17.720 God

00:57:18.240 or

00:57:18.420 intuition

00:57:18.880 or

00:57:19.260 this

00:57:19.520 or

00:57:19.680 that

00:57:19.920 other

00:57:20.300 ways

00:57:20.600 of

00:57:20.740 knowing

00:57:21.120 what

00:57:21.700 people

00:57:22.040 might

00:57:22.260 describe

00:57:22.700 right

00:57:23.340 so

00:57:23.960 how

00:57:25.120 I guess

00:57:26.020 what I'm

00:57:26.280 getting at

00:57:26.760 is

00:57:26.860 how do

00:57:27.260 we

00:57:27.400 all

00:57:27.700 know

00:57:28.560 I

00:57:28.860 would

00:57:29.040 use

00:57:29.220 the

00:57:29.340 word

00:57:29.480 know

00:57:29.760 that

00:57:30.300 we

00:57:30.480 have

00:57:30.680 a

00:57:30.820 choice

00:57:31.120 and

00:57:31.320 other

00:57:31.500 people

00:57:31.760 have

00:57:31.960 a

00:57:32.080 choice

00:57:32.420 because

00:57:32.980 we

00:57:33.200 live

00:57:33.440 our

00:57:33.620 lives

00:57:33.920 that

00:57:34.180 way

00:57:34.500 as

00:57:34.800 you

00:57:34.940 concede

00:57:35.340 and

00:57:35.880 at

00:57:36.000 the

00:57:36.140 same

00:57:36.380 time

00:57:36.740 hold

00:57:36.980 the

00:57:37.100 philosophical

00:57:37.560 belief

00:57:38.000 that

00:57:38.160 that's

00:57:38.360 not

00:57:38.500 true

00:57:38.800 when

00:57:39.200 you

00:57:39.280 talk

00:57:39.420 about

00:57:39.600 other

00:57:39.860 ways

00:57:40.100 of

00:57:40.260 knowing

00:57:40.600 that

00:57:40.880 that

00:57:41.240 raises

00:57:42.080 alarm

00:57:42.700 bells

00:57:42.960 for

00:57:43.200 people

00:57:43.620 who

00:57:43.800 sort

00:57:43.940 of

00:57:44.040 things

00:57:44.980 like

00:57:45.340 women's

00:57:47.800 ways

00:57:48.000 of

00:57:48.160 knowing

00:57:48.460 and

00:57:48.760 ethnic

00:57:49.440 ways

00:57:49.700 of

00:57:49.840 knowing

00:57:50.080 no

00:57:50.540 that's

00:57:51.080 not

00:57:51.200 what

00:57:51.320 I

00:57:51.420 mean

00:57:51.660 I

00:57:52.580 don't

00:57:52.820 mean

00:57:53.000 ethnic

00:57:53.380 ways

00:57:53.700 of

00:57:53.860 knowing

00:57:54.120 what

00:57:54.420 I'm

00:57:54.560 saying

00:57:54.860 is

00:57:55.100 we

00:57:55.820 all

00:57:56.180 live

00:57:56.400 our

00:57:56.600 lives

00:57:57.080 in

00:57:57.760 adherence

00:57:58.280 to

00:57:58.500 a

00:57:58.680 belief

00:57:59.080 that

00:57:59.460 based

00:57:59.960 on

00:58:00.160 our

00:58:00.340 belief

00:58:00.560 system

00:58:00.920 is

00:58:01.080 false

00:58:01.460 isn't

00:58:02.760 that

00:58:02.960 quite

00:58:03.300 telling

00:58:03.780 it

00:58:04.620 is

00:58:04.840 interesting

00:58:05.280 it's

00:58:06.040 an

00:58:06.400 interesting

00:58:06.720 point

00:58:07.220 and

00:58:09.660 I

00:58:10.760 find

00:58:11.100 it

00:58:11.340 telling

00:58:11.800 and

00:58:12.260 worrying

00:58:12.640 and

00:58:13.240 it

00:58:13.620 doesn't

00:58:13.980 stop

00:58:14.380 me

00:58:14.700 having

00:58:15.400 a

00:58:15.720 scientific

00:58:16.560 worldview

00:58:17.100 of

00:58:17.640 the

00:58:18.700 rest

00:58:18.900 of

00:58:19.020 the

00:58:19.140 world

00:58:19.520 yes

00:58:20.880 the

00:58:21.480 rest

00:58:21.700 of

00:58:21.820 the

00:58:21.920 world

00:58:22.180 I

00:58:22.500 grant

00:58:22.840 you

00:58:23.000 I'm

00:58:23.160 not

00:58:23.300 suggesting

00:58:23.740 that

00:58:24.080 that

00:58:24.640 invalidates

00:58:25.540 the

00:58:25.700 theory

00:58:25.960 of

00:58:26.120 evolution

00:58:26.540 I'm

00:58:27.400 saying

00:58:27.760 what

00:58:28.480 it

00:58:28.640 may

00:58:28.920 invalidate

00:58:29.600 is

00:58:29.800 the

00:58:29.980 idea

00:58:30.380 that

00:58:30.640 all

00:58:30.940 there

00:58:31.160 is

00:58:31.380 to

00:58:31.540 understanding

00:58:32.140 the

00:58:32.360 world

00:58:32.580 is

00:58:32.760 a

00:58:32.900 scientific

00:58:33.240 method

00:58:33.680 I

00:58:38.300 don't

00:58:38.700 does that

00:58:38.920 make sense

00:58:39.340 not

00:58:39.720 really

00:58:40.380 it's

00:58:41.520 hard

00:58:41.720 for me

00:58:42.000 to

00:58:42.300 quite

00:58:44.220 follow

00:58:44.560 that

00:58:45.040 what

00:58:48.560 other

00:58:48.940 way

00:58:49.240 what

00:58:49.620 other

00:58:50.120 view

00:58:51.280 than

00:58:51.660 the

00:58:51.860 scientific

00:58:52.240 worldview

00:58:52.780 might

00:58:53.260 you

00:58:53.500 be

00:58:54.440 erecting

00:58:55.180 as

00:58:55.460 an

00:58:55.600 alternative

00:58:56.200 whatever

00:58:57.160 it

00:58:57.540 is

00:58:57.820 that

00:58:58.060 makes

00:58:58.440 us

00:58:58.820 experientially

00:59:00.320 know

00:59:00.820 that

00:59:01.460 we

00:59:01.640 have

00:59:01.880 choice

00:59:02.340 even

00:59:02.760 though

00:59:03.160 the

00:59:03.660 logical

00:59:04.060 conclusion

00:59:04.600 of

00:59:04.820 our

00:59:04.980 scientific

00:59:05.360 worldview

00:59:05.840 is

00:59:06.100 that

00:59:06.240 we

00:59:06.360 don't

00:59:07.280 ah

00:59:07.640 when you

00:59:08.160 say

00:59:08.300 we

00:59:08.480 know

00:59:08.700 we

00:59:08.860 have

00:59:09.000 choice

00:59:09.300 I

00:59:09.480 mean

00:59:09.740 that's

00:59:10.700 a

00:59:10.840 false

00:59:11.060 belief

00:59:11.400 isn't

00:59:11.760 it

00:59:11.920 so

00:59:12.120 is

00:59:12.340 it

00:59:12.600 well

00:59:13.300 that

00:59:13.520 you

00:59:13.880 live

00:59:14.200 your

00:59:14.440 life

00:59:14.700 according

00:59:15.060 to

00:59:15.220 that

00:59:15.400 the

00:59:15.640 premise

00:59:15.980 that

00:59:16.180 we're

00:59:16.660 basing

00:59:17.020 this

00:59:17.280 whole

00:59:17.640 discussion

00:59:17.980 on

00:59:18.300 the

00:59:19.020 premise

00:59:19.700 is

00:59:19.940 that

00:59:20.100 it

00:59:20.260 is

00:59:20.420 a

00:59:20.540 false

00:59:20.780 belief

00:59:21.220 it's

00:59:21.820 an

00:59:21.980 illusion

00:59:22.300 but

00:59:24.360 you

00:59:24.580 don't

00:59:24.840 live

00:59:25.020 your

00:59:25.160 life

00:59:25.380 as

00:59:25.540 if

00:59:25.720 it's

00:59:25.900 an

00:59:26.020 illusion

00:59:26.320 you

00:59:28.420 live

00:59:28.680 your

00:59:28.820 life

00:59:29.020 as

00:59:29.160 if

00:59:29.280 it's

00:59:29.460 true

00:59:29.800 you

00:59:30.420 look

00:59:30.700 at

00:59:30.860 somebody

00:59:31.180 who

00:59:31.340 steps

00:59:31.580 on

00:59:31.760 your

00:59:31.900 foot

00:59:32.120 and

00:59:32.280 you

00:59:32.400 think

00:59:32.680 what

00:59:34.200 an

00:59:34.400 arsehole

00:59:34.700 you

00:59:34.880 certainly

00:59:35.640 do

00:59:36.100 and

00:59:37.540 I

00:59:38.240 don't

00:59:38.700 think

00:59:38.920 I

00:59:39.060 have

00:59:39.240 a

00:59:39.400 problem

00:59:39.680 with

00:59:39.940 that

00:59:40.200 actually

00:59:40.640 I

00:59:41.000 don't

00:59:41.560 think

00:59:41.800 I

00:59:41.980 have

00:59:42.280 I

00:59:44.320 think

00:59:44.520 the

00:59:44.680 fact

00:59:44.860 that

00:59:45.040 it's

00:59:45.220 an

00:59:45.360 illusion

00:59:45.680 it

00:59:46.080 just

00:59:46.300 is

00:59:46.480 an

00:59:46.640 illusion

00:59:46.980 and

00:59:47.560 I

00:59:48.020 recognize

00:59:48.980 that

00:59:49.380 it

00:59:49.540 is

00:59:49.720 an

00:59:49.860 illusion

00:59:50.160 but

00:59:50.440 the

00:59:50.600 entire

00:59:50.900 world

00:59:51.240 operates

00:59:51.780 on

00:59:52.080 what

00:59:52.420 you

00:59:52.740 including

00:59:53.720 you

00:59:54.000 and

00:59:54.200 me

00:59:54.480 on

00:59:54.860 that

00:59:55.060 illusion

00:59:55.420 isn't

00:59:55.720 that

00:59:56.160 the

00:59:57.860 entire

00:59:58.180 world

00:59:58.440 you

00:59:58.580 mean

00:59:58.720 people

00:59:59.060 yes

00:59:59.540 yes

00:59:59.900 that's

01:00:00.260 not

01:00:00.420 the

01:00:00.540 entire

01:00:00.760 world

01:00:00.980 the

01:00:01.100 entire

01:00:01.320 world

01:00:01.480 societies

01:00:02.140 are

01:00:02.380 built

01:00:02.620 on

01:00:02.820 the

01:00:02.960 idea

01:00:03.320 that

01:00:03.580 we

01:00:03.840 have

01:00:04.000 choice

01:00:04.440 oh

01:00:04.720 yes

01:00:05.000 it

01:00:05.160 is

01:00:05.400 absolutely

01:00:06.020 and

01:00:06.540 don't

01:00:07.760 you

01:00:07.860 think

01:00:08.020 that's

01:00:08.560 revelatory

01:00:09.720 in some

01:00:10.120 way

01:00:10.300 I

01:00:11.280 think

01:00:11.520 if

01:00:12.240 it

01:00:12.800 could

01:00:12.960 worry

01:00:13.220 anybody

01:00:13.540 it

01:00:13.680 should

01:00:13.800 worry

01:00:14.020 all

01:00:14.260 of

01:00:14.380 humanity

01:00:19.540 that's

01:00:20.160 why

01:00:20.340 I'm

01:00:20.500 asking

01:00:20.800 you

01:00:21.100 the

01:00:21.260 question

01:00:21.560 as

01:00:21.720 I

01:00:21.820 say

01:00:21.940 you

01:00:22.080 are

01:00:22.220 one

01:00:22.400 of

01:00:22.520 the

01:00:22.660 sharpest

01:00:23.080 minds

01:00:23.380 our

01:00:23.620 societies

01:00:23.980 have

01:00:24.300 produced

01:00:24.580 you

01:00:25.240 are

01:00:25.560 and

01:00:27.160 I

01:00:27.500 think

01:00:27.840 it's

01:00:28.120 interesting

01:00:28.540 to

01:00:28.840 wrestle

01:00:29.080 with

01:00:29.320 these

01:00:29.500 questions

01:00:29.940 well

01:00:30.200 you

01:00:30.440 could

01:00:30.620 wrestle

01:00:30.920 with

01:00:31.140 a

01:00:31.280 philosopher

01:00:31.740 and

01:00:32.140 he

01:00:33.460 would

01:00:33.640 snow

01:00:33.840 you

01:00:34.000 with

01:00:34.220 jargon

01:00:35.140 which

01:00:36.320 I'm

01:00:36.460 not equipped

01:00:39.080 to do

01:00:39.840 but

01:00:40.700 talk to

01:00:41.840 a philosopher

01:00:42.240 and ask

01:00:42.620 them

01:00:42.780 about

01:00:43.160 compatibilism

01:00:44.160 don't ask

01:00:45.380 me what

01:00:45.620 that means

01:00:45.980 ask

01:00:46.280 them

01:00:46.520 we

01:00:47.040 will

01:00:47.680 do

01:00:47.840 that

01:00:48.000 and

01:00:48.200 thank

01:00:48.580 you

01:00:48.680 for

01:00:48.800 playing

01:00:49.060 along

01:00:49.360 by

01:00:49.560 the

01:00:49.640 way

01:00:49.820 and

01:00:50.100 exploring

01:00:50.500 this

01:00:50.740 argument

01:00:50.980 with

01:00:51.280 me

01:00:51.460 before

01:00:53.280 we

01:00:53.600 head

01:00:53.800 on

01:00:54.060 over

01:00:54.540 to

01:00:54.920 our

01:00:55.080 supporters

01:00:55.500 where

01:00:55.800 they

01:00:56.100 get

01:00:56.360 to

01:00:56.560 ask

01:00:56.880 their

01:00:57.420 questions

01:00:57.920 to

01:00:58.120 you

01:00:58.280 our

01:00:58.680 final

01:00:58.920 question

01:00:59.260 is

01:00:59.440 always

01:00:59.640 exactly

01:01:00.040 the

01:01:00.260 same

01:01:00.460 what's

01:01:01.000 the

01:01:01.100 one

01:01:01.240 thing

01:01:01.420 we're

01:01:01.580 not

01:01:01.780 talking

01:01:02.120 about

01:01:02.420 that

01:01:02.780 we

01:01:02.900 really

01:01:03.100 should

01:01:03.340 be

01:01:03.580 before

01:01:05.300 Richard

01:01:05.640 answers

01:01:06.000 the

01:01:06.180 final

01:01:06.480 question

01:01:06.920 when

01:01:07.600 the

01:01:07.820 interview

01:01:08.160 is

01:01:08.340 over

01:01:08.600 make

01:01:09.100 sure

01:01:09.260 you

01:01:09.440 click

01:01:09.740 the

01:01:09.900 link

01:01:10.100 in

01:01:10.420 the

01:01:10.540 description

01:01:10.940 to

01:01:11.480 see

01:01:11.680 this

01:01:12.080 we're

01:01:13.000 kind

01:01:13.180 of

01:01:13.280 seeing

01:01:13.480 a

01:01:13.620 resurgence

01:01:14.180 now

01:01:14.580 of

01:01:14.980 religion

01:01:15.480 does

01:01:16.420 that

01:01:16.600 worry

01:01:17.000 you

01:01:17.460 Joe Rogan

01:01:18.320 recently

01:01:18.660 had

01:01:18.900 Jordan

01:01:19.180 Peterson

01:01:19.480 as a

01:01:19.840 guest

01:01:20.120 and

01:01:20.740 they

01:01:20.880 discussed

01:01:21.320 you

01:01:21.540 briefly

01:01:21.940 how

01:01:22.660 do

01:01:22.840 you

01:01:23.000 answer

01:01:23.260 the

01:01:23.480 criticisms

01:01:23.980 that

01:01:24.360 your

01:01:24.660 supposed

01:01:25.100 fear

01:01:25.520 of

01:01:25.760 taking

01:01:26.060 psychedelics

01:01:26.860 is

01:01:27.120 unwarranted

01:01:27.700 how

01:01:28.520 would

01:01:28.740 you

01:01:28.880 respond

01:01:29.240 to

01:01:29.480 criticism

01:01:29.960 of

01:01:30.260 your

01:01:30.420 beliefs

01:01:30.780 as

01:01:31.060 reductionist

01:01:31.800 materialism

01:01:32.580 Elliot

01:01:33.600 says

01:01:34.520 in a

01:01:34.920 world

01:01:35.120 with

01:01:35.340 no

01:01:35.540 God

01:01:35.860 is

01:01:36.180 there

01:01:36.340 a

01:01:36.480 scientific

01:01:36.940 way

01:01:37.340 of

01:01:37.580 proving

01:01:38.060 objective

01:01:38.660 morality

01:01:39.220 well

01:01:41.600 I'm not

01:01:41.800 sure

01:01:41.940 we're

01:01:42.100 not

01:01:42.260 talking

01:01:42.520 about

01:01:42.760 it

01:01:42.900 I

01:01:43.060 mean

01:01:43.180 I

01:01:43.340 think

01:01:43.620 I

01:01:46.460 always

01:01:46.760 feel

01:01:47.120 that

01:01:47.400 questions

01:01:47.940 that

01:01:48.400 have

01:01:49.020 a

01:01:49.180 kind

01:01:49.360 of

01:01:49.440 eternal

01:01:49.820 significance

01:01:50.640 are

01:01:51.320 the

01:01:51.420 ones

01:01:51.600 we

01:01:51.740 should

01:01:51.880 be

01:01:52.020 talking

01:01:52.280 about

01:01:52.680 and

01:01:53.120 I'm

01:01:53.740 not

01:01:53.900 saying

01:01:54.120 we

01:01:54.620 haven't

01:01:55.020 but

01:01:55.220 many

01:01:55.800 people

01:01:56.140 do

01:01:56.720 get

01:01:57.360 so

01:01:57.560 preoccupied

01:01:58.160 with

01:01:58.340 immediate

01:01:58.680 human

01:01:59.020 concerns

01:01:59.480 that

01:01:59.720 they

01:01:59.880 forget

01:02:00.720 that

01:02:00.940 there's

01:02:01.140 a

01:02:01.240 universe

01:02:01.600 out

01:02:01.860 there

01:02:02.080 which

01:02:02.300 is

01:02:02.520 eternal

01:02:03.520 and

01:02:03.800 will

01:02:04.700 go on

01:02:05.060 long

01:02:05.220 after

01:02:05.460 humans

01:02:05.780 are

01:02:05.900 no

01:02:06.020 longer

01:02:06.220 here

01:02:06.400 and

01:02:06.560 did

01:02:06.720 go

01:02:06.900 on

01:02:07.080 long

01:02:07.240 before

01:02:07.480 humans

01:02:07.860 ever

01:02:08.220 came

01:02:08.640 so

01:02:09.500 subspecie

01:02:11.520 eternitatis

01:02:12.700 the

01:02:14.320 big

01:02:15.460 questions

01:02:16.040 are the

01:02:16.400 things

01:02:16.620 that I

01:02:16.940 think

01:02:17.140 we

01:02:17.300 should

01:02:17.520 be

01:02:18.020 talking

01:02:18.880 about

01:02:19.300 and

01:02:19.820 to a

01:02:20.220 large extent

01:02:20.600 actually

01:02:20.960 today

01:02:21.280 we

01:02:21.460 have

01:02:21.840 perfect

01:02:23.120 perfect

01:02:23.600 Richard Dawkins

01:02:24.260 thank you so much

01:02:24.920 head on over

01:02:25.600 to check out

01:02:26.780 Richard's answers

01:02:27.520 to your

01:02:28.140 questions

01:02:28.640 can you be a

01:02:31.320 scientist

01:02:31.660 and religious

01:02:32.380 or do you

01:02:32.780 think those

01:02:33.100 two

01:02:33.300 plenty of

01:02:33.740 people

01:02:33.940 are

01:02:34.380 there

01:02:48.280 that

01:02:48.820 are

01:02:49.280 in

01:02:53.880 the

01:02:54.620 way

01:02:58.620 and

01:03:02.800 in

01:03:03.200 a

TRIGGERnometry - August 25, 2024

The Reality of Sex & Gender, Evolutionary History & Free Will - Richard Dawkins

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