TRIGGERnometry - June 04, 2025


The Reality of South Africa's Farm Murders - Rob Hersov


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 13 minutes

Words per minute

154.04811

Word count

11,266

Sentence count

819

Harmful content

Misogyny

10

sentences flagged

Toxicity

47

sentences flagged

Hate speech

68

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Rob and Konstantin discuss the history of apartheid in South Africa and how it led to the rise of the white settler-colonialist regime. They also discuss the current political situation in the country, and the opposition to it by the Economic Freedom Fighters.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:01.000 There are two farm attacks every day in South Africa.
00:00:06.000 Two murders of farmers every week.
00:00:09.000 Being a South African farmer is the most dangerous profession in South Africa. 0.99
00:00:14.000 Julius Malema of the Economic Freedom Fighters.
00:00:17.000 This is the kill the boar game.
00:00:19.000 Right.
00:00:20.000 Has been jumping up and down in stadiums filled of 100,000 people,
00:00:23.000 all wearing red berets, shouting and singing, 1.00
00:00:26.000 kill the boar, kill the farmer, we will slit the throat of whiteness. 1.00
00:00:31.000 Where's this headed, Rob? 1.00
00:00:33.000 It's headed into the abyss.
00:00:36.000 Rob Herzog, welcome to Trigonometry.
00:00:38.000 Konstantin Francis, what an honor to be here, it really is.
00:00:41.000 It's a treat.
00:00:42.000 I've always wanted to be on your show and here I am.
00:00:44.000 Well, here you are.
00:00:45.000 And for sad reasons, unfortunately,
00:00:48.000 because what's happening in your country in South Africa has really shocked the world.
00:00:52.000 There was a big showdown in the White House with Donald Trump.
00:00:56.000 And we've been meaning to talk about this issue for a long time.
00:00:59.000 We both know people, have friends, fans of the show who are South African,
00:01:03.000 who've told us various things that are going on.
00:01:05.000 But first and foremost, I think, forgive me for saying it in this kind of crude way,
00:01:10.000 but I think apartheid happened and then it kind of got sorted out, as people might think.
00:01:16.000 And then I think most of the rest of the world kind of forgot about South Africa truthfully
00:01:20.000 and didn't really pay much attention.
00:01:22.000 And now people are paying attention because terrible things are happening.
00:01:26.000 So can you just talk to us about the history of the country,
00:01:29.000 how it got to where it's got to, why are we here and why are we having this conversation?
00:01:33.000 So South Africa was founded as a country, formed as a country in 1910,
00:01:38.000 the Union of South Africa.
00:01:39.000 And prior to that, very quick history, other than the Portuguese who arrived but didn't stay, 0.99
00:01:48.000 the Dutch East India Corporation arrived in 1652 in the Cape
00:01:54.000 and set it up as a trading station for their boats going to India.
00:01:58.000 And they didn't meet any black tribes in the Cape.
00:02:03.000 There were the Hottentots or the Strandlopers, the beach walkers who were itinerant, 1.00
00:02:09.000 a very ancient civilization.
00:02:11.000 And they settled, the Dutch settled there and basically moved inland, the Great Trek. 1.00
00:02:19.000 And at the Fish River, 600 kilometers from Cape Town,
00:02:22.000 was the first time they met the black tribes of Africa.
00:02:26.000 The white tribe of Africa met the black tribes of Africa. 0.73
00:02:29.000 And that's when cooperation, trade and wars began.
00:02:33.000 And as the Dutch moved inland on this Great Trek, 1.00
00:02:36.000 to get away from British rule that had arrived, 0.92
00:02:40.000 they encountered various different black tribes along the way.
00:02:44.000 And in some cases they fought, in other cases they made peace,
00:02:47.000 bought land, traded and moved on.
00:02:49.000 And then gold was discovered and everybody poured in.
00:02:53.000 And that's when things began to get more complicated.
00:02:56.000 So there were the two Boer republics, Boers are Afrikaners, means farmer,
00:03:01.000 but they're mostly Afrikaners, that were inland provinces,
00:03:06.000 the Orange Free State and the Transvaal.
00:03:09.000 Whereas the Cape and the KwaZulu-Natal, which was Natal was more British. 0.56
00:03:15.000 And that's when the first Anglo-Boer war began, having had the Anglo-Zulu wars already.
00:03:24.000 The second Anglo-Boer war was 1899 to 1902,
00:03:27.000 and you all know about that,
00:03:29.000 with the first use of what's called concentration camps,
00:03:31.000 because the British couldn't beat the Boers.
00:03:33.000 These were farmers that would provision themselves on a farm,
00:03:36.000 go out and fight the British, 1.00
00:03:38.000 and then go back to the farms to re-provision themselves.
00:03:41.000 And the only way the British could resolve that was to take the women and children off the farms, 1.00
00:03:47.000 burn the farms and put them in camps.
00:03:49.000 And in the camps they got dysentery and many of them died.
00:03:52.000 It was not a good situation.
00:03:54.000 Fast forward to 1910,
00:03:57.000 Union of South Africa.
00:03:59.000 South Africa then fights with the Allies in the First World War,
00:04:02.000 with the Allies in the Second World War.
00:04:04.000 And in 1948, the national government, mostly Afrikaners, wins the election.
00:04:10.000 And from 1948 to 1994, the Afrikaners, who were 60% of the white population of South Africa, rule the country. 0.82
00:04:21.000 And apartheid was introduced in that period, in the 1950s,
00:04:27.000 and then it was put into the Constitution.
00:04:30.000 And our country was driven by separateness.
00:04:34.000 So if you take the direct translation of apartheid,
00:04:37.000 there's no word hate in the word.
00:04:39.000 It's H-E-I-D. 0.96
00:04:41.000 It means separateness.
00:04:42.000 And it was all about separate development.
00:04:44.000 Fast forward to 1994,
00:04:48.000 the white minority government realized that apartheid's not sustainable.
00:04:53.000 And that was due mainly to international pressure,
00:04:56.000 but also to an internal reckoning that this just wasn't sustainable.
00:05:01.000 And we had a peaceful transition from white minority rule to democracy. 0.78
00:05:06.000 Enter Nelson Mandela, who'd been in jail for 27 years.
00:05:10.000 And from 1994 to 2008, the world basically said,
00:05:17.000 we've done it.
00:05:18.000 We've solved the problem.
00:05:19.000 Aren't we brilliant?
00:05:20.000 And look the other way.
00:05:22.000 But from 1994 to 2008, South Africa actually worked.
00:05:26.000 Nelson Mandela, as like a giant, like a saint, stood over South Africa.
00:05:31.000 And even though the ANC policies had been developed by the National Democratic Revolution in 1969,
00:05:40.000 when they were all trained in Russia,
00:05:42.000 there was deep communist and socialist ideology built into the ANC,
00:05:48.000 National Democratic Revolution.
00:05:50.000 Mandela strode over it and managed it rather effectively.
00:05:54.000 There was meritocracy.
00:05:55.000 The country grew at three, four percent a year.
00:05:58.000 500,000 jobs a year were added in that period.
00:06:02.000 And everything was going just fine.
00:06:04.000 Do you pause there for a second?
00:06:06.000 I want to ask you about Nelson Mandela because I came to Britain, I think, 95, 96.
00:06:12.000 And I didn't know who he was.
00:06:14.000 I just knew he was a saint.
00:06:16.000 This is kind of how he was treated.
00:06:18.000 And but I also knew that he had a violent past.
00:06:21.000 He was kind of considered a terrorist by many people.
00:06:23.000 But here he was having effectively united a country and held it together with his example of forgiveness and so on.
00:06:29.000 Can you talk a little bit about his contribution to where South Africa,
00:06:33.000 how South Africa transitioned from apartheid to where it was during that period?
00:06:37.000 He was a terrorist.
00:06:38.000 He was sent to jail for life on Robben Island as a terrorist for blowing up post offices, 0.81
00:06:46.000 for organizing armed rebellion and even announcing that women and children are going to get killed in the process.
00:06:52.000 And he went through a full legal process.
00:06:55.000 He was defended properly, was prosecuted properly, and he was sent to jail.
00:06:59.000 And even the international human rights and amnesty internationals, if it existed in those days, or the equivalent, did not pursue that case.
00:07:08.000 Sorry to jump in.
00:07:09.000 Were civilians ever, did he ever kill civilians?
00:07:12.000 Yes.
00:07:13.000 His organization did.
00:07:14.000 His organization did.
00:07:15.000 And he was part of formation of the military wing of the ANC, which is called Umkunte Wesizwe, the Spare of the Nation.
00:07:22.000 And we're going to get back to those.
00:07:24.000 We'll call it MK.
00:07:25.000 We're going to get back to that in a little while because it reappears.
00:07:29.000 So how does he go from that violent, terroristic activity?
00:07:33.000 He gets imprisoned.
00:07:34.000 Well, 27 years, mainly on Robben Island.
00:07:37.000 He was an extraordinary man because that's a long time to spend in prison.
00:07:42.000 And over that period of time, he won over a lot of the guards, a lot of the people around him.
00:07:49.000 And I think he, I won't say mellowed, it's the wrong word, but I think he realized as he got closer to release that he needed to deliver reconciliation to the country.
00:08:00.000 The country couldn't be torn apart any more than it was going forward.
00:08:06.000 And he took a view with de Klerk, both of whom were on the Nobel Peace Prize together, F.W. de Klerk, that the country needed truth and reconciliation.
00:08:16.000 And South Africa formed the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which basically said that if you come and admit the crimes that you did under apartheid in front of audience, in front of the parents whose child you might have killed, you would be forgiven.
00:08:34.000 And that was the bloodletting that was required to go forward in a peaceful way.
00:08:39.000 And a deal was done.
00:08:40.000 The constitution was developed together with the ANC, an incredible constitution, but it didn't factor a certain important thing into the constitution.
00:08:53.000 The constitution was that if somebody evil or malevolent or corrupt was elected president, the power that they would have to turn the country in the wrong direction, which we'll get to in 2008.
00:09:07.000 So Nelson Mandela held back a lot of the forces in South Africa from 1994 until he stepped down and Thabo Mbeki came in as president.
00:09:18.000 He held back the forces that wanted retribution, punishment, and managed the country in a way that held it all together and held it in the right direction.
00:09:28.000 And we had economic growth.
00:09:30.000 Before Francis jumps in, what is the racial breakdown of South Africa today?
00:09:35.000 So I think in the early nineties, the white population was 15 to 20% of the country.
00:09:42.000 It is now 7%.
00:09:44.000 And there are 5 million white South Africans made up of Afrikaners and Anglos.
00:09:53.000 The Afrikaners are the people that speak Afrikaans, have been there mostly since 1650.
00:10:00.000 And the Anglos arrived later. 0.99
00:10:03.000 The main group of Anglos arrived from Britain in 1820, the 1820 settlers.
00:10:08.000 So the two white South African tribes.
00:10:14.000 Then there's the coloreds. 0.96
00:10:17.000 And the coloreds are the mix of white and black or white and Indian.
00:10:23.000 You know, they're the combinations.
00:10:27.000 They're another 8%.
00:10:29.000 So whites 7%, coloreds 8%. 1.00
00:10:31.000 And Indians, people of Indian extraction, are 3%. 1.00
00:10:35.000 So about 18% of the country are not black.
00:10:39.000 And then the black South Africans, I think there are 26 different tribes.
00:10:44.000 There are 12 official languages in South Africa.
00:10:47.000 Official languages.
00:10:48.000 Wow.
00:10:49.000 But there are 26 different tribes.
00:10:52.000 The Gaza, the Zulu are the biggest. 1.00
00:10:54.000 Then Swana, Sutu, and on and on and on.
00:10:57.000 It's a country that's twice the size of France, 60 million people.
00:11:01.000 And the Western Cape has nothing whatsoever to do with the Northwest Proverbs or KwaZulu-Natal.
00:11:07.000 It's a very complex situation.
00:11:09.000 Many ethnicities, many cultures, and many languages.
00:11:13.000 You've already hinted, Rob, at how the seeds of South Africa's demise were kind of already sown in this constitution and the ANC.
00:11:23.000 And I think it's really important for people to understand.
00:11:26.000 Let's drill down on the politics of this because there is a communist element.
00:11:30.000 There is, you know, there is a spirit or a desire for retribution or revenge.
00:11:36.000 So what's really going on here with the politics of the ANC and similar parties like that?
00:11:43.000 So all the members of the ANC prior to 1994 were either part of the trade unions in South Africa
00:11:51.000 or were outside of South Africa, part of MK, the military wing, or being trained in Russia.
00:11:59.000 The vast majority of them were being trained in Russia, in Soviet Russia and then in USSR Russia.
00:12:06.000 And it comes through very clearly in the National Democratic Revolution document,
00:12:11.000 which is coming into play today on an accelerated basis as the noose tightens on South Africa.
00:12:20.000 But in 2008, a man got elected as president, Jacob Zuma, trained in Russia,
00:12:27.000 somebody that Thabo Mbeki didn't trust, didn't like, but didn't think was smart enough.
00:12:36.000 So it made him his vice president.
00:12:38.000 And when Zuma became president, having been trained in Russia, he began to play his cards
00:12:43.000 and instituted what is called state capture.
00:12:47.000 And I loved your expression the other day.
00:12:50.000 I re-watched one of your speeches that said the barbarians aren't at the gate, they're inside the gate.
00:12:56.000 Well, in South Africa, the barbarians have captured the commanding heights of the economy, 1.00
00:13:01.000 of our democracy, and of our culture.
00:13:05.000 And the noose is now really tightening.
00:13:07.000 But it began before Jacob Zuma.
00:13:11.000 Cyril Ramaphosa, our current president, was part of a cadre deployment,
00:13:16.000 CADRE, C-A-D-R-E.
00:13:18.000 South Africans call it CADRE.
00:13:20.000 I think it's pronounced cadre.
00:13:21.000 Cadre.
00:13:22.000 Cadre.
00:13:23.000 There was a cadre deployment commission formed, initially in secret,
00:13:27.000 but all the documents had been found,
00:13:31.000 which basically sought to impose into not just positions of power,
00:13:37.000 but even at the middle class, you know, the head of a sewage plant in a small town,
00:13:42.000 the head of an electricity department in some small province.
00:13:48.000 They replaced all of these mainly white, middle class people, 0.95
00:13:52.000 who were getting up in the morning and doing their jobs of maintaining the infrastructure.
00:13:57.000 Even those people were replaced by ANC loyalists.
00:14:01.000 And what happened from 2008, under Jacob Zuma's rule, was complete looting, rape and pillage of the country.
00:14:10.000 And that's when the economic decline began.
00:14:13.000 And how much of this is ideological, Rob?
00:14:15.000 And how much of this is corruption?
00:14:17.000 Because Africa has rampant corruption, as we know. 0.99
00:14:21.000 It's a very good question.
00:14:22.000 I mean, you've got to add, there's ideology, kleptocracy and inactocracy. 1.00
00:14:30.000 There's embarrassingly stupid, incompetent people being put in positions of power. 1.00
00:14:36.000 For example, South African Airways was the best airline in Africa, by far. 1.00
00:14:41.000 Profitable, well-run in 1994, when the country was handed over.
00:14:46.000 Under Jacob Zuma, whose puppet masters were some Indian brothers called the Guptas, 1.00
00:14:53.000 he appointed Dudu Mayeni as chairperson of South African Airways.
00:14:59.000 She was a school teacher, a failed school teacher.
00:15:02.000 Her only job as chairperson was to divert money to the ANC and to the Guptas. 0.99
00:15:09.000 So, it's a great question.
00:15:12.000 It's ideological, plus kleptocracy, plus ineptocracy.
00:15:21.000 It's all three together, which is a highly destructive, you know, it's like the witches boiling their stew.
00:15:28.000 It's because when I read about South Africa, as someone who has a Venezuelan background, the more I read about it, the more I go,
00:15:37.000 this is a very similar story to what I've experienced and what I've seen in a way that I didn't actually think it was when I first read about it on the surface.
00:15:49.000 So, people often say South Africa is the next Zimbabwe, but it's not.
00:15:54.000 And I can tell you why it's very different.
00:15:56.000 But it is much more likely the next Venezuela.
00:15:58.000 You're 100% right.
00:16:00.000 You know, in a moment of, in an emotional moment, this friend of mine, he was the ambassador to the, I won't say which country, ambassador in Africa and then an ambassador in South America, part of the ANC, an ANC member.
00:16:16.000 I think he's left the ANC now.
00:16:18.000 I think he'd had a brandy too many.
00:16:20.000 He said to me, you know, Rob, what you white guys will never, ever understand is sometimes we are grateful that Mugabe chased the white farmers out of Zimbabwe. 0.94
00:16:31.000 We know the country got destroyed. 0.68
00:16:33.000 We know everyone was forced into poverty, but we were happy to see the white people chased out. 1.00
00:16:38.000 And I just thought, wow, if this hatred exists under the surface, do we even stand a chance in this country?
00:16:45.000 And it's very worrying because I think what's happening is there are five million white South Africans and five and a half million colored South Africans.
00:16:55.000 88% of South Africans are Christians, conservative, church going, slow moving. 1.00
00:17:04.000 And even though democracy is moving in the right direction, in 2024, the ANC, for the first time in 30 years, lost its majority in a national election.
00:17:16.000 It had 70% in the beginning, dropped down to 60, was at 56% in May 2024, and the election happened 41%.
00:17:25.000 And they were forced to form a coalition with the main opposition, the Democratic Alliance.
00:17:31.000 And the Democratic Alliance is a centrist, pro-West, Judeo-Christian, free market.
00:17:39.000 I mean, I'd say they're more Democrat than Republican, if you look at them in the South African context.
00:17:46.000 But the ANC was forced to form a coalition with the Democratic Alliance, okay, and a whole lot of other smaller parties.
00:17:53.000 But even so, they're still trying to force through racist, socialist, and anti-American and anti-Semitic laws in South Africa.
00:18:04.000 Tell us about that, Rob. What are these laws? What's actually, because people will just say those are words.
00:18:09.000 What do you mean specifically? What are they instituting in law?
00:18:13.000 The news moves fast, and it's not just about keeping up, it's about seeing clearly.
00:18:18.000 In a world where headlines are constantly shifting and narratives change by the hour,
00:18:23.000 understanding how a story is being reported is just as important as what the story is.
00:18:28.000 That's why I use Ground News. It shows you how coverage of any story differs across the political spectrum,
00:18:35.000 helping you break out of echo chambers and actually see the full picture.
00:18:39.000 Take the recent landmark UK Supreme Court ruling on the legal definition of woman.
00:18:43.000 Using Ground News, we can see that CNN, which leans left, ran with,
00:18:48.000 UK Supreme Court says legal definition of woman excludes trans women.
00:18:52.000 The Spectator, which leans right, led with, the Supreme Court ruling is a victory for women. 0.99
00:18:57.000 Same story, two completely different takes.
00:19:00.000 Ground News makes these contrasts easy to spot by letting you compare headlines at a glance.
00:19:05.000 It also shows you ownership information, like the ownership status of both CNN and The Spectator.
00:19:11.000 My favorite feature is the blind spot feed.
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00:19:17.000 Stories you might not even realize you're missing, so you can stay informed without being trapped in a single world view.
00:19:23.000 Click the link in the description or head to ground.news slash trigonometry for 40% off their unlimited vantage plan, the same one we use.
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00:19:35.000 If you care about seeing every side of the story, join them today.
00:19:39.000 Since 1994, 114 race-based laws have been added to South Africa.
00:19:50.000 Since 1994, there are 140 mostly anti-white race-based laws in South African law.
00:19:58.000 In the early 90s, after 1994, a process called black economic empowerment was put into place.
00:20:07.000 And everyone accepted that. Corporates accepted it.
00:20:11.000 Everyone said, it's a good thing to empower the previously disadvantaged and bring them into the economy.
00:20:18.000 By the way, the same thing was done in the 1940s and 1950s, when most of the big businesses were owned by Anglos and not Afrikaners.
00:20:27.000 And a conscious decision was made.
00:20:28.000 We need to help the Afrikaners be part of the economy and allow them to build great businesses, which then happened.
00:20:35.000 So the same process was put in place.
00:20:37.000 Bring the previously disadvantaged, mainly black people, but coloreds and Indians, into the economy. 0.99
00:20:43.000 Let's have banks owned by black people. 0.98
00:20:46.000 And the law was that it started this way. 0.82
00:20:49.000 Any company that did business with the government would have to have 30% of its shareholding owned by previously disadvantaged people.
00:20:58.000 Fair enough, everyone accepted that.
00:21:01.000 It then moved from any company doing business with the government to any business.
00:21:07.000 To January 2025, we have the Equity Employment Amendment Act, which says that any business with 50 or more employees has to have a racial breakdown equal to where the country stands.
00:21:26.000 How are you going to have a technology department with only 7% white people, 8% colored, 2% to 3% Indian, and the rest black?
00:21:40.000 How do you manufacture that?
00:21:42.000 The government has gone from include previously disadvantaged in the economy, which have been accepted, to we're going to tell you who you can hire and who you can't fire.
00:21:54.000 That's just one element.
00:21:56.000 Another law that came out recently, signed by Cyril Ramaphosa.
00:21:59.000 Listen to these three wonderful words.
00:22:01.000 Expropriation without compensation.
00:22:04.000 That sounds familiar to me with my Soviet background.
00:22:06.000 Right.
00:22:07.000 So, I can go on.
00:22:09.000 This is about farmland, right?
00:22:10.000 No.
00:22:11.000 No?
00:22:12.000 No.
00:22:13.000 It's anything, if it's in the public interest.
00:22:15.000 But what's in the public interest?
00:22:17.000 Your house?
00:22:18.000 The watch of your arm?
00:22:19.000 My farm?
00:22:20.000 It's getting to a point, a point like Venezuela, where there's potentially economic genocide.
00:22:28.000 Wait, what's economic genocide?
00:22:30.000 My understanding of genocide is the deliberate extermination of a group of people.
00:22:35.000 So, if you take the full definition of genocide, there are ten elements to it.
00:22:42.000 There's classification, symbolization, dehumanization, organization, persecution, extermination, and denial.
00:22:50.000 I'm missing one or two.
00:22:52.000 And if you look at all of those, when it comes to South Africa, there are probably six or seven of those in process now.
00:22:58.000 If you apply for a job, you're racially classified.
00:23:03.000 It's all in place.
00:23:05.000 And now they're closing the noose.
00:23:07.000 Economically, what comes next?
00:23:10.000 Chasing people out of South Africa. 1.00
00:23:12.000 Getting people to leave their farms.
00:23:15.000 And there's a horrific thing going on in South Africa, which Donald Trump highlighted.
00:23:20.000 Farm attacks.
00:23:22.000 There are two farm attacks every day in South Africa.
00:23:28.000 Two murders of farmers every week.
00:23:32.000 And 20% of the murders involve rape and torture.
00:23:37.000 It is three times more likely as a South African farmer to be murdered than as a South African policeman.
00:23:46.000 And twice as likely as a South African policeman to be murdered than an average citizen.
00:23:50.000 Being a South African farmer is the most dangerous profession in South Africa. 0.99
00:23:55.000 And why is that happening?
00:23:57.000 Well, they're economic reasons.
00:23:59.000 Farmers are isolated.
00:24:01.000 You know, there's usually a husband, a wife, maybe a teenage son that know how to use a weapon.
00:24:06.000 Not sure you can trust your staff because they're scared, untrained.
00:24:10.000 And when we have load shedding, which means that electricity goes down.
00:24:15.000 Because our government, our ANC government, has broken and stolen all of our state-owned enterprises,
00:24:22.000 they were handed the most sophisticated economy in Africa in 1994.
00:24:25.000 And they've broken every single state-owned enterprise.
00:24:29.000 Our trains don't run on.
00:24:31.000 Our railways don't work.
00:24:32.000 There's sewage in the streets.
00:24:34.000 It's broken.
00:24:35.000 The South Africa is broken.
00:24:37.000 But farms are isolated.
00:24:39.000 If electricity goes down, those people that don't have solar or backup generators,
00:24:45.000 their alarm systems don't work.
00:24:47.000 They're vulnerable.
00:24:50.000 The farm attack situation, if you take 30,000 South African commercial farmers and 3 million American commercial farmers,
00:25:01.000 and you take a pro rata of the South African farmers murdered between 2020 and today,
00:25:07.000 235,000 American farmers would have been murdered in farm attacks between 2020 and today.
00:25:14.000 That's crazy.
00:25:15.000 You don't think that's some form of genocide?
00:25:17.000 Well...
00:25:18.000 And why is it happening?
00:25:19.000 This is what I was going to ask you, because before we were speaking with you,
00:25:22.000 I spoke to a friend of ours, actually a very good guy who supported our channel when we were in our infancy.
00:25:27.000 I used to have friends.
00:25:28.000 As did we.
00:25:30.000 We have new friends now.
00:25:32.000 And he's South African.
00:25:34.000 His family is still there.
00:25:36.000 And he told me that his uncle was a farmer who was murdered last year.
00:25:39.000 And I said to him, why is this happening?
00:25:44.000 Which is the question you were about to address.
00:25:46.000 And he said, well, first of all, South Africa is a very violent place.
00:25:52.000 Correct.
00:25:53.000 20,000 murders every year.
00:25:54.000 The farm murders, horrific as they are, are 100 a year or something along those lines out of 20,000.
00:26:01.000 So what he was saying is, it's very difficult to know whether it is because they're geographically isolated.
00:26:08.000 And as I understand it, most farmers in South Africa are white.
00:26:12.000 So it would look like that, even if it wasn't being targeted.
00:26:16.000 So what I want to get with you is, do you think this is specifically people being targeted because they're white?
00:26:23.000 It's not just white farmers are being murdered.
00:26:26.000 When I give you the farm numbers, it's white. 0.85
00:26:28.000 Right.
00:26:29.000 So I'm just, I don't know enough about it to know.
00:26:31.000 But the majority are white.
00:26:32.000 The majority are white.
00:26:33.000 Yeah.
00:26:34.000 So when you say this is genocide or the attempt to, or the path to genocide, what are you really saying?
00:26:39.000 Why is this happening?
00:26:41.000 So Julius Malema of the economic freedom fighters.
00:26:45.000 This is the kill the boar guy.
00:26:46.000 Right.
00:26:47.000 Yeah. 0.99
00:26:48.000 He's walking up and down in stadiums filled of a hundred thousand people, all wearing red berets, shouting and singing, kill the boar, kill the farmer. 0.98
00:26:56.000 And then in a separate interview, which is available on the internet, he says, we will slit the throat of whiteness, but not yet. 0.98
00:27:05.000 Why not Mashaba?
00:27:07.000 Why not Soli and all of that?
00:27:11.000 Because the mayor of DA in PE is a white man. 0.99
00:27:18.000 So these people, when you want to hit them hard, go after a white man. 0.99
00:27:25.000 They feel a terrible pain. 1.00
00:27:28.000 Because you have touched a white man.
00:27:31.000 Not because Mashaba and Soli will not be touched.
00:27:36.000 They will be touched.
00:27:38.000 Don Juan.
00:27:39.000 But we are starting with this whiteness. 0.96
00:27:43.000 We are cutting the throat of whiteness. 1.00
00:27:52.000 And this, the South African courts said, is not hate speech. 0.91
00:27:57.000 If that's not hate speech, what is hate speech?
00:28:00.000 So we have the EFF primarily, one settler, one bullet. 1.00
00:28:06.000 Kill the farmer, kill the boar. 1.00
00:28:08.000 And doing it intentionally on a consistent basis. 1.00
00:28:11.000 And it's not hate speech.
00:28:14.000 It's a liberation song.
00:28:16.000 And farm attacks and farm murders spike after these rallies and these songs.
00:28:21.000 So there is definitely an incentive created by this kind of behavior in the farm murders.
00:28:28.000 Some of it's economic.
00:28:30.000 You know, we have the highest unemployment in the world.
00:28:32.000 33% unemployment is the official rate.
00:28:36.000 60% youth unemployment in South Africa.
00:28:40.000 And all thanks to the ANC.
00:28:42.000 They have de-industrialized our economy.
00:28:44.000 And they've destroyed our hope and our future.
00:28:48.000 How much of it is also these parties saying the white man is to blame.
00:28:55.000 You go and take it because you deserve it.
00:29:00.000 It has been stolen from you, which is what I saw in Venezuela.
00:29:04.000 There's a lot of that narrative.
00:29:05.000 So from 1994 to 2008, there wasn't any of that.
00:29:10.000 From 2008 today, the ANC has de-industrialized our economy, destroyed our state-owned enterprises.
00:29:17.000 On every metric, every single metric you look at in South Africa, health, education, we have massively underperformed.
00:29:25.000 And if you look at GDP, since 2008 to today, we've grown at 1% a year on average.
00:29:35.000 And our population growth is 2% a year.
00:29:38.000 So the last 14 years, we've gone poorer.
00:29:41.000 And it's entirely due to the ANC, ideology, kleptocracy, ineptocracy.
00:29:48.000 31 years they've been in power, and now they're saying the fault is whiteness, apartheid, colonialism.
00:29:58.000 31 years later, you would think there's a sell-by date, an expiry date, at which you stop blaming your ex-wife, your ex-husband.
00:30:07.000 There's got to be an expiry date for people to stop blaming whiteness, apartheid and colonialism.
00:30:13.000 Surely now it's obvious it's the ANC to blame for what's happening in South Africa.
00:30:18.000 And yet, they turn the narrative on us.
00:30:21.000 And how much of this is also due to a population that is illiterate, uneducated, therefore easier to manipulate?
00:30:28.000 So someone in the State Department came to see me a year ago, and he was just wondering why South Africa couldn't fill out the fisheries agreement,
00:30:35.000 the AGOA agreement, fill out the forms and send them in.
00:30:38.000 And then he asked me a bigger question.
00:30:40.000 He said, do you think what's happening in South Africa is malevolence or incompetence?
00:30:47.000 I thought it was a great question.
00:30:49.000 I think it's both.
00:30:50.000 I think it's a real element of malevolence and a huge amount of incompetence.
00:30:55.000 It's very frustrating where we are.
00:31:00.000 And this morning, I was chatting to two friends last night, and I woke up this morning thinking, where do I stand on South Africa?
00:31:09.000 Because the days when I'm there and the sun is shining and I feel hopeful, but most days I actually think it's the beginning of the end.
00:31:17.000 Would I invest as a foreigner? Under no circumstances.
00:31:21.000 Today, South Africa is uninvestable as a foreigner. 1.00
00:31:25.000 As a South African, you've got money there.
00:31:27.000 You've got to put it to work.
00:31:29.000 And I think, you know, a million South Africans have left the country.
00:31:34.000 There are more dollar-born, sorry, more South African-born dollar billionaires outside of South Africa than in South Africa.
00:31:41.000 I think there are 35 dollar billionaires living outside of South Africa and five living in South Africa.
00:31:47.000 The two richest people in LA are born in South Africa, number one and number two.
00:31:52.000 And so it goes.
00:31:53.000 And I also think, and I've never mentioned this, I remember to say this, I think there are 300,000 British passport holders in South Africa.
00:32:02.000 And there are 300,000 South Africans inside the M25 in the UK.
00:32:08.000 You know, but there's also, there must be seeds of hope here because it must come to the point where, so for instance, in Venezuela, the only reason the government is still in power is by force. 0.95
00:32:20.000 That's literally the only reason because the entire public sees that it's complete bullshit that they've been fed. 0.56
00:32:27.000 Even if you're uneducated, even if you are not put in not literate, you can still see what is happening because it's undeniable. 0.96
00:32:34.000 Has South Africa got to that point yet?
00:32:37.000 Very, very, very good point no one has ever raised.
00:32:40.000 The army and police in South Africa, in 1994, we had by far the biggest, strongest, well-trained, best-trained army in Africa.
00:32:49.000 I was an infantry officer for two years in 83 and 84.
00:32:53.000 Our police were efficient and effective and they got the job done.
00:32:56.000 From 94 to today, both have fallen apart.
00:33:00.000 We don't have a single, we created the Roy Falk helicopter, was the most manoeuvrable helicopter in the world, 20, 25 years ago.
00:33:11.000 Okay, South Africa had a huge arms industry, collapsed, bankrupt.
00:33:15.000 So, in Venezuela, they can stay in power through use of force, through military and police. 0.99
00:33:21.000 South African military and police is pathetic and useless. 0.98
00:33:25.000 Our police only have the budget to go to the firing range once a year and shoot at a fixed target. 0.98
00:33:32.000 Okay, whereas the average South African that has a gun and a gun license, a lot of people that don't have gun licenses, is way better trained and there are more private, armed private security people in South Africa than the army and police put together.
00:33:50.000 So, there's no ability by the ANC government or by the EFF and MK, we're going to talk about them in a second, to have a coup d'etat or to create some military override to say, you will do what we say.
00:34:11.000 But what they've done is played the slow game, it's a Soviet playbook, and they've put in place, measure by measure by measure, year by year, to strangle us economically. 0.95
00:34:22.000 Corporate South Africa are either cowards, colluders, or most likely have been captured, because they're not standing up and saying anything.
00:34:33.000 I'm one of the very few businessmen standing up and speaking like I do.
00:34:37.000 But in their defense, you're worried about your safety.
00:34:42.000 And so they can quite easily say, why would I say something when my life is going to be in jeopardy or the lives of my children or my family?
00:34:51.000 But at what point do you take a stand?
00:34:53.000 If you boil a frog, you know, at what point does the frog say, I can't take it anymore?
00:35:00.000 We're getting to that point, but we haven't got there yet.
00:35:03.000 And so it's a slow, it's the long game.
00:35:06.000 This is what I was going to ask you, the way you feel things are headed.
00:35:09.000 You mentioned there's 300 South Africans within the M25 for people who are not in Britain.
00:35:14.000 That's basically in London, Greater London, I'd say.
00:35:17.000 And 300,000 British passport holders, and we see people now moving to the US, leaving South Africa.
00:35:27.000 Do you think we are going to see a refugee crisis with South Africa in our lifetimes,
00:35:33.000 people genuinely fleeing for their lives because things have become so bad?
00:35:37.000 Economically, yes.
00:35:39.000 But would the farm attacks spread to civil unrest in South Africa is really what we talk about.
00:35:46.000 Yeah.
00:35:47.000 We had civil unrest three years ago that started in Durban in the KwaZulu-Natal area and spread to Johannesburg.
00:35:54.000 The police and army did nothing to protect the citizens.
00:35:58.000 They stood back and the citizens had to take it into their own hands to stand up and defend against these criminals.
00:36:05.000 And it was orchestrated, was organized.
00:36:09.000 It was the beginning of an attempted coup and it failed because the average citizen was brave enough to stand up and protect their businesses,
00:36:17.000 protect their shopping malls and stand together.
00:36:20.000 And there were blacks, whites, Indians and colored standing together with their weapons to protect against these people, 0.93
00:36:26.000 with the police standing and watching from the sidelines.
00:36:29.000 So, I would say the one positive we have is it's almost impossible to have a coup.
00:36:37.000 If you look at the economic freedom fighters, they're about 8% of the vote.
00:36:41.000 The Red Beret, the dangerous, crazy guys, they're mostly up in the Northeast. 1.00
00:36:48.000 There's no support for them down in the Cape. 0.90
00:36:51.000 No support in the Northern Cape.
00:36:53.000 In fact, they came down to Cape Town to cause trouble and they were hounded or chased away by the local population.
00:36:58.000 So, the likelihood of civil unrest spreading across the country is very low.
00:37:04.000 The likelihood of coup d'etat is very low.
00:37:07.000 It's just economic strangulation that's taking place.
00:37:10.000 Well, this is what my friend said to me, the one whose uncle was murdered on his farm.
00:37:13.000 He said, look, I'm not sure that the farm genocide way of looking at it is entirely correct. 0.65
00:37:20.000 But the one thing I can tell you is I tell all my white male relatives there is no future for you in this country.
00:37:27.000 You have to leave. You have to leave. 0.73
00:37:29.000 And the other thing he and I discussed as well is I wanted to ask you about, Rob, is we, as you know, we've been pretty vocal about our opposition to DEI here in the West, diversity, equity and inclusion, mainly because I feel it was just factually unfair on principle.
00:37:47.000 Let's be honest. But also what it does is it institutionalizes incompetence because you're not hiring the best people, you're hiring people on other metrics.
00:37:56.000 That sounds like what's been happening in South Africa.
00:37:58.000 It's DEI as a country.
00:37:59.000 Right.
00:38:00.000 That's what Donald Trump said. He said South Africa is DEI as a country and it's getting worse.
00:38:05.000 Hmm. And you mentioned something before we started that I literally could not believe.
00:38:11.000 You said there are racial quotas in South Africa for sport.
00:38:16.000 For sport.
00:38:17.000 And the funny thing is about that, you know, whenever we talk about these racial quotas, we go, well, you wouldn't do that in sport, right?
00:38:27.000 Like you wouldn't do that in the NBA. You wouldn't do that in the Premier League because that's crazy.
00:38:32.000 You guys even have quotas in sport.
00:38:34.000 We do, including the Springbok rugby team, which is incredible because we're still winning.
00:38:39.000 Right.
00:38:40.000 But it's written and unwritten.
00:38:45.000 So there are the laws of the country, which are getting more and more racist and more and more socialist and being forced upon us in a quicker and quicker way.
00:38:54.000 And I think that's because the ANC are realizing they've lost their majority and they've got to get this stuff through as quickly as possible.
00:39:01.000 But at the sport level, my daughter, under 13, water polo, had to have from the Western Cape, which is the province that has white coloreds, but not a lot of black people.
00:39:19.000 There were no black tribes in the Cape, but they've come as economic migrants looking for opportunity.
00:39:26.000 And most of the private schools, boys and girls schools, struggle to find black people.
00:39:32.000 So if you go up country, 50, 60, 70% of the private schools are black boys, black girls.
00:39:39.000 But down in the Cape, it's 10, 15, 20% at the most because they struggle to find local parents who are able to get the scholarships or afford to come to the school.
00:39:49.000 So my daughter's under 13 water polo team had to have two girls of color. 1.00
00:39:56.000 And she lost her position as a result of that. 0.98
00:39:59.000 And then people will say water polo for 13-year-olds, what does it matter?
00:40:05.000 But if you multiply that over...
00:40:06.000 Extrapolate that across all sports in South Africa and you can see where we're heading.
00:40:10.000 And then you multiply that to stay-and-own businesses, to private businesses, to everything.
00:40:15.000 You are going to find yourself in a position where nothing works because the people in charge were not picked.
00:40:20.000 And no one's going to invest in South Africa.
00:40:22.000 If you're told who you have to hire, who you can and can't fire, the racial breakdown of your company, I mean, who's going to invest in our country? 0.99
00:40:31.000 And then you have expropriation without compensation hanging over your head like a sword of Damocles.
00:40:37.000 And the ANC government, who Cyril wrote it into law in January, said it'll be in the public interest and I doubt we're ever going to use it.
00:40:46.000 Then why have the law? And I use it as my expression is, it's a loaded gun on the bedroom table with children running around.
00:40:54.000 At some point, someone's going to pull the trigger.
00:40:57.000 But here's the piece we're missing.
00:41:00.000 The ANC, who are entirely responsible for destroying the country, have 40%.
00:41:09.000 The Democratic Alliance, the party I'd vote for, have 21%.
00:41:14.000 But next, just right behind them at 15%, is Jacob Zuma.
00:41:19.000 He's back again with his party on Kunta Weseezwe, remember?
00:41:24.000 Sphere of the nation, the military arm of the ANC.
00:41:27.000 He, not even a year before the May 2024 election, comes out of the woodwork and says,
00:41:33.000 I'm forming a party, I'm calling it on Kunta Weseezwe, and he gets 15% of the vote. Bang. 0.64
00:41:38.000 And behind him at 8-9% is Julius Malema, economic freedom fighters.
00:41:43.000 So if you add up ANC at 40%, MK at 15%, EFF at 10%, you're around 60% of the country are voting for racist and socialist policies.
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00:43:13.000 Here we go.
00:43:15.000 This is what I was going to ask you because I'm just, the thing I always try to do is listen to what our guests are saying and then go, what is the logical, what is the logical conclusion of all of this, right?
00:43:26.000 Right.
00:43:27.000 So, you've got a country that's, you mentioned the racial breakdown, it's about 80% black.
00:43:32.000 Yep.
00:43:33.000 More or less.
00:43:34.000 You mentioned your friend and former ANC member who told you, we look at Zimbabwe and we're kind of happy even though the country is ruined because effectively the white people have been chased out, killed, et cetera, right?
00:43:46.000 Exactly right.
00:43:47.000 Exactly right.
00:43:48.000 And you've got democracy with a country in which 80% of people are from the majority demographic, many of whom feel that way.
00:43:56.000 Where is this headed, Rob?
00:43:58.000 It's headed into the abyss.
00:44:00.000 Yeah.
00:44:01.000 I mean, I'm negative.
00:44:02.000 I'm negative.
00:44:03.000 I'm three out of 10 today about South Africa.
00:44:06.000 I called my wife a few days ago, having spent 10 days in America, and I said, for the sake of our, you know, for the sake of the next and the next generation, I think we need to set up a base in America and consider moving there.
00:44:20.000 Once our children have finished high school, get them into American universities and focus on building our next few generations in America.
00:44:31.000 I'm very negative about South Africa right now.
00:44:34.000 With my Venezuela head on, sorry to interrupt.
00:44:37.000 How much can we trust these statistics?
00:44:39.000 How corrupt is democracy?
00:44:42.000 That's also a very good question. 0.96
00:44:45.000 South Africa is a failed state.
00:44:50.000 It's got an economy that's collapsing.
00:44:54.000 Our fixed investment as a percent of GDP is 15%.
00:44:59.000 An emerging market country should be 25%. 1.00
00:45:02.000 We are being de-industrialized.
00:45:06.000 We've got big international companies, Exxon, Shell, leaving the country.
00:45:10.000 We've got foreign direct investment looking at South Africa and going, why would we bother?
00:45:16.000 It's over-regulated.
00:45:18.000 It's got, we're forced to give a third of our business on day one to somebody the ANC tells us to.
00:45:25.000 And by the way, it used to be previously disadvantaged.
00:45:28.000 It's now not colored, not Indian, and not black tribes that the ANC doesn't like.
00:45:35.000 So it's just their cronies.
00:45:37.000 And I read an amazing article the last few days that said over a trillion rand has been transferred to a hundred families only for the last 20 years.
00:45:48.000 So it's just kleptocracy for the elites at the highest level, but they're doing it slowly, but the country has hit a wall now.
00:45:58.000 If they were smart, they would actually allow economic growth through sensible policies so they could steal for a lot longer.
00:46:07.000 But the economy is hitting the wall.
00:46:10.000 And I say that if any South African have children that have finished their high school, finished university, they should leave the country. 1.00
00:46:18.000 What's the point of being in South Africa, being white colored or Indian, if you, if there's a glass ceiling, if you can't get jobs or can't play sport because of your pigmentation?
00:46:31.000 Go somewhere else.
00:46:33.000 The thing that worries me as well is just listening to it, if everything you're saying I'm sure is absolutely correct, which makes me think that if they have, if the government have that much of a stranglehold over the country, which they clearly do, why wouldn't they have that over democracy?
00:46:50.000 It is not in their interest to relinquish power.
00:46:53.000 So the stance that you're giving me, I don't believe them.
00:46:58.000 I don't believe them.
00:46:59.000 I just don't.
00:47:00.000 I get it.
00:47:02.000 Anyone who's logical and sensible, here's what I'm saying and says it doesn't make sense.
00:47:07.000 It doesn't make sense.
00:47:09.000 But here's why it does.
00:47:11.000 If there's just a small group of people, call them a hundred families, that want to steal as much as possible, it's not in their interest to have a functioning democracy or a functioning economy.
00:47:22.000 If you break, it's easier to steal.
00:47:26.000 And that's simply the malevolence of what the ANC is doing in this country.
00:47:32.000 There's now the government of national unity coalition of the ANC, the DA and a few other smaller parties.
00:47:40.000 The centrist poll in South Africa.
00:47:43.000 But the ANC are pushing through laws that are even more socialist and even more racist, despite being part of a coalition.
00:47:51.000 And the main opposition party, the Democratic Alliance, have to sue them in court.
00:47:57.000 So a government minister, an ANC government minister, will put in an act to become law, put it to parliament, okay?
00:48:07.000 And the DA have to sue them to stop it.
00:48:11.000 How much of a government of coalition is that?
00:48:14.000 We shouldn't even bother having a parliament.
00:48:17.000 We should just have the cabinet and the law.
00:48:21.000 And one thing worse, I think about 60 to 70% of the judiciary in South Africa has been captured.
00:48:31.000 In Turkey, when Erdogan got elected, what was the first thing he did?
00:48:34.000 Change the constitution.
00:48:36.000 He got more than 60% to change the constitution.
00:48:39.000 And the very first thing he did after that in Turkey, replaced 6,000 judges.
00:48:44.000 Why?
00:48:45.000 So that all decisions could go the way he wanted them to.
00:48:48.000 And exactly the same with the ANC.
00:48:50.000 Over the last six years, they have been replacing judges with their loyalists.
00:48:55.000 To the point where I'm estimating 60 to 70% of the lawyers, local, regional, national, are corrupted and captured by the ANC.
00:49:06.000 The fact that kill the Boer, one settler, one bullet, slit the throat of whiteness, was not hate speech, means that the judiciary isn't the judiciary we had hoped for. 0.90
00:49:25.000 I'm going to ask you a problematic question.
00:49:29.000 He's South African.
00:49:30.000 He's up for it.
00:49:31.000 Oh, Venezuela is doing a good job, guys.
00:49:34.000 Doesn't help with this accent.
00:49:36.000 Okay.
00:49:37.000 In Venezuela, there is a culture in South America which is, and you see it personally in football. 1.00
00:49:45.000 If I screw you over and you fall for my trick, you're the idiot, I'm smart. 1.00
00:49:51.000 And I've seen it right the way through South America and particularly in Venezuela. 1.00
00:49:55.000 I'm in Russia, by the way.
00:49:57.000 And you go, okay. 1.00
00:49:59.000 And I remember having an argument with my uncle and he made that point in going, oh, you English people, you're idiots because of blah, blah, blah. 1.00
00:50:05.000 And I'm like, yes. 0.99
00:50:06.000 And we take your attitude on the macro level and what we have is societal collapse because no one can trust each other and no one can do any form of business because there can't be any trust because everybody's trying to screw each other over.
00:50:18.000 So I guess my problematic question is, how much of this, of what we're seeing, okay, there's kleptocracy, there is the ideological element.
00:50:26.000 How much of this is also cultural as well, which is a big problem in Venezuela?
00:50:30.000 It's 100% cultural.
00:50:33.000 So if you look at South Africa, you could say, is it a geography issue, isolated country?
00:50:39.000 Is it a management issue?
00:50:41.000 Is it just being run badly?
00:50:43.000 Is it a racial issue?
00:50:45.000 Is it an ideological issue?
00:50:47.000 Or is it a cultural issue?
00:50:49.000 And it's all of these, but I think the one, the hardest one to talk about is actually the cultural issue.
00:50:57.000 And this is a big, this is a tough one.
00:51:02.000 When the 1820 settlers arrived from England, the port of Natal, Durban, and they met the first, the Zulus, the Zulus didn't have the written word, okay? 0.95
00:51:16.000 1820 is 100 years ago, not that long ago.
00:51:20.000 They didn't have the written word.
00:51:22.000 They were not subsistent farmers, but they were cattle grazing.
00:51:27.000 They weren't arable farmers like we have today, farming arable land with processes.
00:51:33.000 In those 200 years, how fast does it take a culture to catch up with another culture? 0.91
00:51:41.000 A more advanced culture, more civilized, whatever you want to call it, more mechanized, more industrialized.
00:51:47.000 I don't know what the right word is here, without getting into trouble.
00:51:52.000 I was on a black podcaster a couple of months ago, DJ Spoo, where the issue that I wanted to address with him was,
00:52:01.000 do you still need black economic empowerment?
00:52:04.000 At what point can we get back to merit, get rid of DEI, and actually compete on merit?
00:52:12.000 And he had someone else in the podcast, a surprise guest, another black podcaster, who said they need another 30 years. 0.99
00:52:20.000 I don't know where he came up with that.
00:52:23.000 So they've had 30 years to try and make the country move.
00:52:27.000 They failed to try and bring the previously disadvantaged people into the economy and give them a chance. 0.99
00:52:32.000 They need another 30 years before they can compete on merit?
00:52:35.000 That was their answer, not mine. 0.94
00:52:37.000 So what is it about the cultures in South Africa that's going to make this thing impossible? 0.99
00:52:43.000 We have a third world, a second world, and a first world, South Africa. 0.98
00:52:48.000 And the first world's been ground down.
00:52:52.000 I'm not hopeful.
00:52:54.000 No, you don't seem hopeful, but based on what you're saying, I don't see why you would be.
00:52:58.000 If you were a rational man listening to what you're saying, it does not look like it's tragically heading in the right direction.
00:53:04.000 And one of the things that's interesting as well is I want to talk a little bit about the Marxist stuff because I know from personal experiences there was a lot of Soviet infiltration of African countries.
00:53:18.000 I have family members that went there as part of the Soviet Union, etc.
00:53:22.000 I'm familiar with that.
00:53:23.000 But one of the other things is we talked very much at the beginning about the fact that the world stopped paying attention to South Africa, even as these terrible things were developing since 2008 in particular.
00:53:35.000 Do you think that's partly because actually at some level the rest of the world is going through a similar process at a lower scale in terms of things like DEI? 0.95
00:53:45.000 So when we see DEI in South Africa, we go, well, of course, these are colonial evil people, white people who are bad. 0.99
00:53:54.000 And they are now paying for the crimes that they should be rightly paying for. 0.96
00:53:57.000 So we won't say anything about this because I give you this counter example. 0.96
00:54:01.000 If, let's say, South Africa was still under a part, let's say it was ruled by a majority white people, let's say, and they were creating rules against black people, they were creating separateness, there was some chance about, you know, kill the black people, etc.
00:54:21.000 Do you think we'd have the same attitude? 0.91
00:54:23.000 Because I don't think so.
00:54:24.000 Not at all.
00:54:25.000 Not at all.
00:54:26.000 I mean, we would be attacked, we would be demonized, without a doubt.
00:54:31.000 Right.
00:54:32.000 Without a doubt.
00:54:33.000 Look, the one positive about South Africa, you asked for hope, is there's still free speech.
00:54:38.000 Hmm.
00:54:39.000 Saying what I do in South Africa has allowed a lot more people to get the courage to stand up and say similar things.
00:54:47.000 So I'm not, fortunately, not the only person saying these things.
00:54:50.000 I'm one of the only businessmen, but there are way more people now in media and law and journalists and podcasters saying the same thing.
00:54:58.000 There is still freedom of speech.
00:55:00.000 But if I was in Russia or China, speaking like I do, you wouldn't see me again.
00:55:07.000 No.
00:55:08.000 Whether I'd get re-educated or just disappear is a whole other matter. 0.96
00:55:12.000 So if you flipped it on its head, the example you've given, there's no way South Africa would be allowed to continue if it was, you know, kill the minorities, kill the other people. 0.84
00:55:25.000 There's no way.
00:55:27.000 It's, you know, the word genocide is a very difficult word to use because Donald Trump used it and he used it so intelligently.
00:55:36.000 Because he used it to bring the spotlight of the world on South Africa.
00:55:39.000 Okay.
00:55:40.000 He also didn't do a Zelensky on Silver Ramaphosa in the White House.
00:55:46.000 He was clever enough to pick the EFF, the kill the boy, the Julius Malema.
00:55:51.000 But he gave Silver Ramaphosa an opportunity to say, we don't condone it.
00:55:57.000 We shouldn't condone it.
00:55:59.000 And then a journalist asked, why hasn't he been arrested?
00:56:02.000 Why hasn't Julius Malema been arrested?
00:56:05.000 It's just, it's an absolute travesty that this is allowed to continue and only Donald Trump seems to notice and seems to care.
00:56:17.000 Britain, Europe, still talk about soft diplomacy and the ANC laugh at them, laugh at them.
00:56:25.000 We're isolated.
00:56:26.000 We're on our own.
00:56:27.000 A lot of the left think we deserve it.
00:56:29.000 And I think that's what you're saying.
00:56:31.000 Yeah.
00:56:32.000 And I think a lot of people will be listening to this conversation with that mindset because, look, let's be honest, apartheid was terrible as far as I understand.
00:56:40.000 And many of the things that happened to black people in the country we now call South Africa over the centuries were terrible, right?
00:56:47.000 So I think that the entire world has now come to a cultural point where we're all trying to reckon with these things that, you know, throughout history were considered actually pretty normal.
00:56:56.000 But in the last few centuries, thankfully, we've woken up to the idea we don't want to behave in this way.
00:57:02.000 And so you're left with this kind of thing.
00:57:04.000 But I just think the reason South Africa is ignored as much as it is, it seems to me, is that we in the rest of the Anglosphere just look at it and kind of go, well, you know, it's bad, but.
00:57:15.000 And it's in Africa.
00:57:16.000 It's in Africa. 0.84
00:57:17.000 Yeah, it's in Africa.
00:57:18.000 And also they kind of deserve it, really.
00:57:19.000 Like we deserve it.
00:57:20.000 It's a lot of that.
00:57:21.000 This is how a lot of Bruce people feel.
00:57:22.000 We deserve to be paying reparations and doing all these things.
00:57:25.000 Despite you were the first country to give up slavery.
00:57:27.000 Right.
00:57:28.000 Despite many countries continuing for another hundred years of slavery, don't get pointed out.
00:57:34.000 Yeah.
00:57:35.000 Yeah.
00:57:36.000 But talking of moving forward, what could you, other than Nelson Mandela, was there any, any reason that that period between 94 and 2008 was so much better than the current period?
00:57:49.000 Is there anything you can go back to and go, we were doing these things better?
00:57:53.000 Maybe if we stop doing this or go back to doing that, that you might be able to recover some sanity in South Africa?
00:57:59.000 So South Africa still has the best infrastructure in Africa.
00:58:02.000 There's more, there's a larger rail network in South Africa than the whole of Africa put together.
00:58:07.000 Our roads, despite all the potholes up country, I mean Cape, the Cape is a very different animal to the rest of South Africa.
00:58:13.000 So if you visit South Africa and you come to Cape Town, you go, what's the fuss all about?
00:58:17.000 Like being in a gorgeous Mediterranean country.
00:58:21.000 But if you go up country, it's very edgy.
00:58:23.000 You don't stop at red lights at night.
00:58:25.000 You use them as a yellow light and check there's nothing there and drive through.
00:58:29.000 It's very edgy up country.
00:58:31.000 So the infrastructure is there.
00:58:35.000 The country can be fixed and it can be turned around very, very quickly.
00:58:40.000 But we need a melee.
00:58:42.000 We need a melee who comes in. 0.99
00:58:44.000 We need a benevolent dictator. 0.96
00:58:46.000 And when I talk about a turnaround country, take a turnaround expert and businesses.
00:58:54.000 If you have a business that's failing, turnaround expert comes in.
00:58:58.000 In the first week, they fire management.
00:59:01.000 They call the debt holders and say, we're not paying interest for the next three years.
00:59:04.000 Take it or leave it.
00:59:05.000 They tell the equity holders, you've got five cents on the dollar.
00:59:08.000 Sit tight.
00:59:09.000 Maybe you'll get your money back one day.
00:59:11.000 They hive off the divisions of the company that will never make money and they do it immediately.
00:59:16.000 And they hone down on what can be fixed, what can work.
00:59:20.000 And they focus their attention on that.
00:59:22.000 The same needs to happen in South Africa.
00:59:25.000 We have 32 cabinet ministers, 32 cabinet ministers.
00:59:29.000 We have a minister of women. 0.86
00:59:31.000 What does a minister of women do in South Africa?
00:59:34.000 And all the ministers have deputy ministers, blue light brigade, security details, budgets.
00:59:40.000 The waste is off the charts.
00:59:43.000 Off the charts.
00:59:44.000 And we have state owned enterprises, electricity supply commission, the remnants of South African
00:59:50.000 Airways, Transnet, our rail network, all desperate for money.
00:59:56.000 Our post office.
00:59:57.000 I mean, who sends mail these days?
00:59:59.000 Our post office is requiring another 50 billion rand just to stay alive.
01:00:03.000 These should be sold off or closed down.
01:00:06.000 The country's fixable.
01:00:07.000 I can fix it.
01:00:08.000 Give me 100 days as a benevolent dictator and I can turn the country around.
01:00:13.000 And it's all the basic stuff.
01:00:15.000 It's all the stuff Javier Malay is doing.
01:00:17.000 But we need to do it in warp speed.
01:00:20.000 And unfortunately, democracy is working.
01:00:22.000 Our next election in 2029, I say unfortunately, because it's working too slowly.
01:00:27.000 In 2029, we have our next national election.
01:00:30.000 Our economy is not going to make it till then.
01:00:33.000 But at 2029, the ANC will be irrelevant.
01:00:37.000 So there's a whole blank sheet of paper.
01:00:40.000 There is the light at the end of the tunnel in 2029 if we can make it to there.
01:00:45.000 So why do you need a dictator? 0.97
01:00:46.000 Could this not be fixed democratically?
01:00:49.000 It's just too slow.
01:00:50.000 You know, we're running out of money.
01:00:52.000 We're hitting a debt ceiling.
01:00:53.000 We've hit the Laffer curve on taxes.
01:00:56.000 Well, the more tax they raise, the less money they receive.
01:01:00.000 And people are desperate.
01:01:02.000 You know, we're getting more racist, more socialist laws being implemented by the day.
01:01:07.000 And people are leaving.
01:01:09.000 Anyone with talent and opportunity is leaving the country or has left already.
01:01:14.000 And it's a tragedy because the people who suffer the most are not the ones who leave.
01:01:19.000 Of course, they suffer.
01:01:20.000 But it's the people who can't leave, who've got no choice.
01:01:23.000 And they're literally stuck there in a collapsing society.
01:01:27.000 And why am I doing this?
01:01:29.000 Okay, I don't need to do this.
01:01:31.000 I'm wealthy enough.
01:01:32.000 I can be the last chopper out of Saigon.
01:01:34.000 I can leave tomorrow.
01:01:36.000 I can go live in Miami.
01:01:37.000 I don't need to do this.
01:01:40.000 I'm doing it because every day the average citizen walks up to me and says,
01:01:44.000 thank you for giving us a voice.
01:01:46.000 I'm not doing it to be a hero.
01:01:48.000 My wife begged me to step down and stop doing it.
01:01:51.000 And she said to me, can trigonometry be your last international podcast?
01:01:56.000 And I just feel for her.
01:01:59.000 You know, it's not fun doing what I'm doing.
01:02:02.000 But South Africans are desperate. 0.97
01:02:04.000 There's a real element of desperation.
01:02:07.000 And one thing we haven't touched on yet is you've talked in, I think, with Dave Rubin
01:02:15.000 about the fact that the ANC has very strong links with Iran,
01:02:20.000 which is part of, in your telling at least, the explanation of why South Africa is so pro-Palestine,
01:02:27.000 anti-Israel, whatever way you want to call it, including the International Criminal Court and so on.
01:02:31.000 Can you talk about that?
01:02:32.000 Yes.
01:02:33.000 During apartheid, South Africa had very few allies.
01:02:36.000 South Africa is allied with Taiwan and the other pariah, Israel. 0.69
01:02:42.000 And we had military cooperation with the three of us.
01:02:49.000 ANC got support from Gaddafi, from Arafat, PLO, not Hamas, the PLO, and various other rogue,
01:02:57.000 what we consider rogue states, plus Russia and China, but mainly Russia.
01:03:04.000 The anti-apartheid movement wasn't just black people standing up.
01:03:11.000 A lot of white people put their lives at risk to support the anti-apartheid movement.
01:03:17.000 Some publicly and in South Africa and constitutionally.
01:03:20.000 Harry Oppenheimer, the richest man in South Africa at the time, was publicly vocal against apartheid.
01:03:26.000 And Helen Sussman, one of the greats in parliament, Jewish as well, stood against apartheid.
01:03:33.000 But within the ANC, there was a Jewish element, Ronnie Castrols, Joe Slovo,
01:03:39.000 who were hard-boiled communists that helped create the National Democratic Revolution
01:03:45.000 and were very, very pro the ANC.
01:03:49.000 And yet, today, the ANC supports Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and they're being paid by Iran to do so.
01:03:59.000 What's your basis for saying that, Rob? Just because people will ask.
01:04:02.000 Reports, it's detailed, it's known.
01:04:05.000 But there's also instinct, intuition, and things that are pretty obvious if you take a look.
01:04:12.000 Prior to the 2024 election, the ANC was bankrupt, couldn't pay its bills,
01:04:17.000 and the courts were going to take some of their buildings in return to the people that they owed money to.
01:04:25.000 And overnight, they had money. Overnight, they had money.
01:04:29.000 Naledi Pandil, who had married a Muslim and converted to Islam, was the foreign minister,
01:04:35.000 had many trips to Iran, back and forward.
01:04:38.000 And all of a sudden, the ANC had money.
01:04:40.000 Followed by the ANC then putting forward the ICJ case against Israel.
01:04:45.000 There's a lot of proof that it's the case.
01:04:50.000 The money came from Iran to the ANC.
01:04:54.000 Not directly to the case for the ICJ, but it didn't need to.
01:04:58.000 It's a well-known fact that Iran has been funding the ANC.
01:05:03.000 Wow. And you think that the case they put forward against Israel is tied to that money?
01:05:10.000 Absolutely. Without a doubt.
01:05:13.000 In addition, DERCO, the Department of International Relations and Cooperation,
01:05:20.000 has been captured by ANC Islamists.
01:05:23.000 Every senior member of our Foreign Affairs Department is an Islamist. 1.00
01:05:28.000 Abraham Rasool was the ambassador that South Africa sent to Washington, 0.94
01:05:33.000 and he publicly called Donald Trump a white supremacist and a racist, 0.58
01:05:38.000 and the Americans kicked him out. 0.59
01:05:39.000 This is our Department of Foreign Affairs.
01:05:42.000 So there's a big, and there's a small, I mean, our Muslim population in South Africa is 2%.
01:05:49.000 And they generally have been wonderful, moderate, decent people.
01:05:53.000 Until Iran started getting involved in South Africa through the ANC, 0.69
01:05:57.000 and that's when the troubles began.
01:05:59.000 We now have a much more radicalized Muslim population in South Africa, and a lot of anti-Semitism.
01:06:06.000 The Jewish population in South Africa, I think, has gone from 150,000 down to 40,000.
01:06:11.000 And the vast majority of Jews in South Africa have left.
01:06:16.000 And finally, the one thing we haven't talked about is the Soviet communist infiltration.
01:06:21.000 This is personal interest for reasons you'll know, given that you watch the show.
01:06:24.000 But what has been the impact of that on South Africa?
01:06:29.000 On South Africa, maybe talk a little bit about Africa more broadly,
01:06:32.000 because I know that, you know, the South Africans fought in Angola, for example,
01:06:35.000 where I know people who were there at the time from the Soviet side trying to stir things up.
01:06:40.000 So the minute the Cold War ended, Apartheid had no allies left. 0.65
01:06:47.000 Because during the Cold War, the South African government was an ally of the West.
01:06:54.000 And we were actively fighting communists in Angola, in Mozambique, in Africa.
01:07:00.000 And we had a very, very well-trained, whites only, very well-trained, successful military. 0.98
01:07:07.000 We had Danel, which was our arms manufacturing, long-range howitzers.
01:07:14.000 I mean, did a very good job militarily.
01:07:16.000 There was no threat from MK.
01:07:18.000 There was no real threat from the ANC.
01:07:19.000 The armed wing of the ANC was ineffective against the South African military and police.
01:07:24.000 But the Soviet influence was significant during the Cold War.
01:07:29.000 And then after the Cold War, till today, there's been Russian influence politically in South Africa,
01:07:38.000 backing Jacob Zuma, banking his MK party.
01:07:43.000 But from an economic side, it's limited.
01:07:46.000 Because everything that South Africa and Africa has in terms of minerals, resources, commodities, forestry, Russia has. 0.93
01:07:53.000 There's no real interest from Russia from an economic perspective in Africa.
01:07:58.000 It's more military and strategic.
01:08:00.000 China is way more influential in Africa because Africa has all the commodities, minerals and metals, that China needs.
01:08:11.000 And for its Belt and Road strategy.
01:08:13.000 And remember, Simonstown Naval Base, Cape Town, has for a very long time been very strategic.
01:08:21.000 It became less strategic when the Red Sea was open, when the Iran wasn't a threat and the Panama Canal was open. 0.96
01:08:29.000 But with the Red Sea and with the Houthis and with Suez under some pressure, South Africa becomes strategic again.
01:08:38.000 And South Africa is a springboard into Africa for the West.
01:08:43.000 You know, it's a Judeo-Christian country, primarily, English speaking, has a crumbling but still strong infrastructure,
01:08:52.000 and is the absolute ideal springboard into Africa.
01:08:56.000 It ought to be saved.
01:08:59.000 So is Russia active in South Africa?
01:09:02.000 It's active in funding Jacob Zuma and his MK party.
01:09:07.000 But it's not obviously as active as it is.
01:09:12.000 I think Russia's got other priorities and other problems.
01:09:14.000 But it does.
01:09:15.000 And that's a good thing for us.
01:09:16.000 And the ANC has got nowhere to run to.
01:09:18.000 You know, Russia's got its hands full with America and Ukraine. 0.93
01:09:21.000 China's got its hands full with America.
01:09:24.000 We know China's just going into deflation right now.
01:09:26.000 I don't know if you saw that a few days ago.
01:09:28.000 And Iran is running out of allies.
01:09:30.000 And they're going to be forced to do a deal with America or get hammered by Israel. 0.63
01:09:34.000 The ANC's got nowhere to run.
01:09:36.000 And I suppose that's a positive.
01:09:38.000 You know, maybe our opportunity is the external crisis or opportunity,
01:09:43.000 being Donald Trump and his administration focusing on South Africa,
01:09:48.000 making it a priority, which they've done, and putting pressure on the ANC.
01:09:53.000 Maybe this is our one chance.
01:09:55.000 And if we can make it through to 2029, I honestly believe that there will be a center,
01:10:00.000 pro-West, Judeo-Christian, free market, political party or coalition party that will win the day.
01:10:13.000 We've just got to make it through to 2029.
01:10:16.000 Rob, it's been an absolute pleasure.
01:10:18.000 Thank you so much for coming on the show.
01:10:20.000 Final question is always the same.
01:10:21.000 What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?
01:10:24.000 Before Rob answers the final question, at the end of the interview,
01:10:28.000 make sure you click the link in the description, go to our sub stack,
01:10:31.000 where you'll be able to see this.
01:10:33.000 Will communism lead to the downfall of South Africa, essentially?
01:10:37.000 Is South Africa heading for civil war?
01:10:40.000 I'm a South African and my family is still there, thankfully, in the Western Cape.
01:10:44.000 My question is really, do you feel hopeful for some kind of future for them?
01:10:48.000 Or should they make a plan B like Namibia? 0.98
01:10:51.000 What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?
01:10:55.000 The Islamification of Africa. 0.99
01:10:58.000 It's someone no one talks about and it really concerns me.
01:11:01.000 If you take a country like Burkina Faso,
01:11:04.000 which, as you know, is north of Ghana and Sierra Leone.
01:11:08.000 And as you know, the capital is Ouagadougou.
01:11:10.000 That was smooth.
01:11:11.000 Yeah.
01:11:13.000 The...
01:11:14.000 Ouagadougou.
01:11:15.000 Ouagadougou.
01:11:16.000 Ouagadougou.
01:11:17.000 Yeah.
01:11:18.000 I knew that.
01:11:19.000 And you know how to spell it.
01:11:20.000 It starts with an O.
01:11:21.000 Ouagadougou.
01:11:22.000 Of course.
01:11:23.000 How did you not know that, mate?
01:11:25.000 Ouagadougou.
01:11:26.000 And the capital of Madagascar, you know, is Antananariva.
01:11:29.000 I mean, these are easy questions.
01:11:30.000 But Burkina Faso, last generation, was 80% Christian and 20% Muslim.
01:11:36.000 This generation is 80% Muslim and 20% Christian.
01:11:40.000 And there's a powerful Islamification of Africa moving south. 0.98
01:11:45.000 And if you assume, rough numbers, that 10% are radicals of 1.4 billion Muslims.
01:11:55.000 If only 10% are radicals, that's only 140 million.
01:11:59.000 That's a hell of a lot of people.
01:12:01.000 And Africa's got some real problems ahead.
01:12:04.000 Already in Nigeria, already in Kenya, with radical Islam moving south. 0.58
01:12:10.000 And no one talks about it.
01:12:13.000 Join us on Substack, where we'll be having more uplifting and happy conversations.
01:12:19.000 You've pointed out how socialism is getting traction with South Africa's young people.
01:12:24.000 How do you get them to see that free enterprise and free markets, not slogans,
01:12:29.000 are actually what will lift people out of poverty?
01:12:31.000 So much time for 1 a Told Not Sharp.
01:12:32.000 Through the fall right with you.
01:12:33.000 And we all will be waiting for you.
01:12:34.000 I'll call thekämms from the back page in the back. 0.99
01:12:35.000 You will be asking me how solid science form is being measured.
01:12:36.000 And I'll let you get it.
01:12:37.000 I'll make the last conversation.
01:12:38.000 We'll be right back.