TRIGGERnometry - The Rise of the Right is the Left's Fault

00:00:00.800 There is something deeply, deeply rotten in the state of Denmark.

00:00:04.920 What you stand for here on trigonometry is correct.

00:00:08.140 Almost everything that I dislike about the rise of the right in America and here and in Europe,

00:00:14.600 I can say is probably the fault of the left.

00:00:18.240 The left's greatest sin, it seems to be, and I speak as a sort of leftist,

00:00:22.080 is that it would rather be right than effective.

00:00:24.360 There's not even a Wizard of Oz operating the levers in the background.

00:00:27.980 There's just nobody.

00:00:28.740 You must be very uncomfortable with police enforcing speech.

00:00:32.440 Oh, absolutely. It's absurd.

00:00:34.580 To start to get afraid of a word is a very bad thing psychologically.

00:00:39.740 Why?

00:00:40.100 Because you're not facing the truth behind the word.

00:00:44.020 Stephen Fry, it's a dream come true for us.

00:00:47.020 Shush.

00:00:48.760 It's so great to have you on the show.

00:00:51.300 You were one of our absolute favorite guests to get on seven years ago now when we started the show.

00:00:57.220 So it's a real honor for us. Thank you so much for being here.

00:00:59.620 I want to read you a quote. I don't normally do this from a man Francis and I both greatly respect.

00:01:04.840 It's this.

00:01:05.640 It's now very common to hear people say, I'm rather offended by that, as if that gives them certain rights.

00:01:10.960 It's actually nothing more than a wine.

00:01:13.140 I find that offensive. It has no meaning.

00:01:15.060 It has no purpose. It has no reason to be respected as a phrase.

00:01:17.680 I'm offended by that. Well, so fucking what?

00:01:21.140 That was me, wasn't it?

00:01:22.180 That was Stephen Fry.

00:01:23.220 Yes, I remember writing that.

00:01:24.120 So that was a good, close to 20 years ago now.

00:01:27.140 It's become one of those internet postcards.

00:01:28.960 It has.

00:01:29.140 Usually, you know, there's a sunrise or a dew on the end of a blade of grass and the wet nose of a fallow deer.

00:01:38.720 But, yes, I mean, I kind of mean it.

00:01:45.300 And I mean it as one always should for these things, directed inwards.

00:01:50.360 I mean, that's to say I have to accept that if I'm offended, it doesn't really mean anything.

00:01:56.060 It's sad to be offended if I'm offended on the basis of my looks, my race, my sexuality, my manner, my work, almost anything.

00:02:07.380 I can be slightly offended if someone is rude about it.

00:02:11.060 But that's because it's rude.

00:02:12.960 But rudeness is not a crime.

00:02:15.000 It's just a solacism, if you like.

00:02:17.740 And I think one of the – I was thinking as I walked here, what are we going to talk about?

00:02:23.520 Do I believe in free speech?

00:02:25.040 Well, how can one say one doesn't believe in free speech?

00:02:27.500 But is free speech the acme of everything that we have to aim for in life?

00:02:33.140 Why is free speech important?

00:02:35.880 Why do we value it?

00:02:37.380 We value it because it's just, it's fair, it's reasonable, and it's fair, and it makes for a fairer world.

00:02:46.400 And that tells us that justice and fairness are actually the end point.

00:02:51.340 Freedom of speech is not an end point.

00:02:53.820 You don't say, I want a society where everyone can speak freely.

00:02:57.100 You say, I want a society where everyone can speak freely because it leads to a society where people are happier and there is more equity and justice in the world.

00:03:04.680 I don't mean necessarily I'm going to say that free speech is the aim of every social justice warrior, as they used to be called, you know, back in the dark days of Twitter.

00:03:13.980 SJWs, SJWs, libtards, and all the insults that used to be directed at people like me, and probably rightly.

00:03:22.800 But, and I think that's best shown in the difference between Europe and America.

00:03:28.780 In America, it really is the most important thing, free speech.

00:03:32.260 Or at least it's put forward as the most important thing.

00:03:35.760 Free speech is the shining summit to which a nation must, you know, bend its efforts and to which we must all climb.

00:03:47.300 And finally, we've got there, our speech is entirely free.

00:03:51.820 Is that really the golden, is that the golden point?

00:03:55.340 I don't think it is.

00:03:56.900 The golden point is something else.

00:03:59.080 Comity, amity, happiness, joy, friendship, all the things that are really very difficult to achieve.

00:04:06.100 And free speech is one of the, one of the roots that you get to, isn't it?

00:04:11.680 I mean, I'm suggesting this.

00:04:13.080 No, I think you're making really good points in some ways, and some I disagree.

00:04:18.560 And here's why.

00:04:19.940 I think that what you're talking about is that free speech in and of itself does not produce a good society.

00:04:26.920 I think that's true.

00:04:28.260 The question, though, is you said offense is not a crime.

00:04:33.100 But in a society that tries to regulate through the law, as ours increasingly does, I would put it to you,

00:04:39.620 what people say to produce friendliness and amity and all these other things.

00:04:45.040 You end up with the sort of situation that we have in this country with the police routinely knocking on people's doors for a tweet.

00:04:51.180 And I think the reason free speech has become such a calling card for a lot of people, especially in America, is that contrast.

00:04:58.540 And they're going, well, if this is the choice, if I get to live either in a society where the police will knock on my door or in a society where everyone says what they want and it's pretty ugly,

00:05:08.900 I'd rather the ugly but free world than the artificial, cozy conformity enforced by the state.

00:05:15.560 I agree.

00:05:15.980 I wonder if that's a false choice, though.

00:05:17.540 I mean, it's a bit like saying either you don't allow arms or you allow arms, you know, the gun laws in America.

00:05:25.040 Well, yes, but you don't allow individual citizens to own belt-fed mortars and nuclear weapons.

00:05:31.360 So there is a limit you put on the arms they can own.

00:05:34.280 There is a, you know, that's what lawmaking is about.

00:05:36.940 It's about saying thus far and no farther.

00:05:40.140 And unfortunately, people tend to come out with slippery slope arguments, which are fallacies, or at least always were fallacies.

00:05:48.000 It's one of the primary Aristotelian logical fallacies, the slippery slope.

00:05:52.000 Yet people use it all, oh, once you go down that path.

00:05:55.320 Well, we're human beings and we have will.

00:05:58.260 Once we go down that path, we stop.

00:06:00.780 Or the path bifurcates.

00:06:02.520 Or we make another choice.

00:06:04.200 We rethink.

00:06:05.640 It's very easy for the rhetoric to run away with itself when it comes to these extremes.

00:06:13.360 But what I'm saying is I don't think in the UK now we are in the realm of rhetoric anymore.

00:06:18.220 No, I agree.

00:06:18.880 You must be very uncomfortable with police enforcing speech.

00:06:22.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:06:22.760 It's absurd.

00:06:23.860 Absolutely absurd.

00:06:24.800 And I spent, I'm not wishing to paint myself as a hero, but there was a case.

00:06:29.620 I won't say what it was because I, you know, I insisted on it being private.

00:06:33.780 But I intervened and paid for somebody's legal fees all the way to a judge in a high court because they were threatened with prison for a tweet.

00:06:45.560 An innocent joke was ridiculous.

00:06:48.480 And I said, look, I got in touch with his lawyer and said, I'll fund his case because I really thought it was absurd.

00:06:57.800 But then at the same time, I didn't want to do it publicly because it looked like a gesture and a boasting and so on.

00:07:04.680 But yes, it does matter to me that things have become absurd.

00:07:09.000 But what it's the equivalent of, it seems to me, is the Victorians arresting someone for saying arse in the theatre.

00:07:22.320 Things they did.

00:07:23.680 Because the Victorians had their own political correctness, which wasn't called that, their own wokeness, whatever.

00:07:33.820 They called it decency.

00:07:36.100 And it was at its most extreme, we know, we laugh at the fact they covered up piano legs.

00:07:42.240 People weren't allowed to say certain things.

00:07:44.500 They just weren't.

00:07:45.500 They couldn't say them in the theatre.

00:07:46.860 They couldn't say them in public.

00:07:48.000 They couldn't say them in print.

00:07:49.320 They'd be arrested for either sexual, usually, references that the Victorians found utterly distasteful and wrong, morally wrong to them.

00:08:02.980 Or occasionally political ones, you know, political sedition and pamphleting and so on was punished very, very severely.

00:08:11.420 Indeed, there was no free speech in this particular area.

00:08:15.520 And it loosened.

00:08:19.080 It loosened after the First World War in particular.

00:08:22.180 But nonetheless, it carried over to my youth.

00:08:26.600 If I was in the company of a great aunt, there's certain things I wouldn't say.

00:08:32.460 I wouldn't say, fuck and cunt.

00:08:34.680 I just wouldn't.

00:08:35.820 She'd be absolutely horrified.

00:08:38.620 It would be so rude and so unpleasant.

00:08:41.380 And I sometimes think the same when I'm in a taxi and the driver says, God, Stephen, you can't say anything these days, can you?

00:08:49.260 And I want to say to him, here you're in a safe space, as people like to say.

00:08:54.580 You're in a cab with me.

00:08:56.160 You can say anything.

00:08:57.180 What is there that you wanted to say in the past, in the last month, in the last year, that you haven't been able to say?

00:09:05.680 No, but you know what I mean.

00:09:06.840 No, tell me.

00:09:07.880 Say it.

00:09:08.440 Because it's absolutely safe.

00:09:09.800 It will go no further.

00:09:11.220 Well, and they won't say.

00:09:13.620 Because they know what they want to say is actually disgusting, probably, to most people.

00:09:18.600 It's a joke of some sexual nature or racial nature that is actually the equivalent of saying, come to your great aunt.

00:09:26.440 It's just bad manners.

00:09:28.320 It really is that simple.

00:09:30.420 It's terrible manners.

00:09:32.360 It's inconsiderate to speak like that to people who are going to be.

00:09:36.000 And yes, I say this.

00:09:37.120 So what if you're offended?

00:09:38.520 But at the same time, you recognize it.

00:09:43.380 And a decent person doesn't want to offend people.

00:09:45.900 Why would you need to do that?

00:09:49.580 Can I just push back there?

00:09:51.720 You don't want to offend people.

00:09:54.060 But sometimes, Stephen, the truth is offensive.

00:09:56.480 Yes, it can be.

00:09:57.840 And the offense is just a byproduct of you being honest.

00:10:03.360 Yes, I agree.

00:10:06.760 I agree.

00:10:07.800 But most of the time, you're able to temper your speech according to the person you're speaking to, in the same way that you dress according to, you know, the situation.

00:10:25.260 Well, we've both failed on that front.

00:10:27.020 You have to have done.

00:10:28.340 Exactly.

00:10:28.780 But, you know, you go for a job interview or you go to a club where they insist on wearing you a tie, which I've got a lunch in later.

00:10:38.280 And you accept.

00:10:43.360 Those are the rules of the game.

00:10:49.680 And without it, then the game won't work.

00:10:54.420 But that is the everyday experience of most people.

00:11:00.740 They just, they're not going to be rude for any, you know, just for the sake of it.

00:11:06.260 Because I can be and I've got the right to be.

00:11:08.480 So I'm going to say this about Jews or this about Islamic people or this about gay people.

00:11:14.720 I'm going to say this.

00:11:15.960 All right, if you must.

00:11:18.760 Fine.

00:11:19.280 But it's, I'm going to think, very poorly, obvious.

00:11:24.620 I'm going to think you're an utter arsehole behaving like that.

00:11:27.420 But if you've got important things to say, much as I don't follow, agree with almost everything he stands for,

00:11:37.040 if Nigel Farage wants to talk about immigration in certain ways,

00:11:41.540 he's got every right to as a politician.

00:11:44.400 And he probably has a point for millions of people.

00:11:48.080 And the left is miserable at countering that.

00:11:55.820 They just go on about, you know, they call it racism.

00:12:00.400 Well, I don't know.

00:12:03.600 I don't know.

00:12:05.660 I don't know how helpful that is.

00:12:07.480 Because most of the time, the left, the left's greatest sin seems to me, and I speak as a sort of leftist,

00:12:15.340 is they would rather be right than effective.

00:12:18.160 And that to me is, I'm very English in that regard.

00:12:22.440 I come from the empirical tradition.

00:12:24.340 And things should work.

00:12:26.840 Things should have an effect.

00:12:28.400 And if it's simply just the usual screams of racism and so on, then that's not going to help.

00:12:42.080 It's not going to help stop the rise and rise of reform.

00:12:45.940 It's not going to stop the terrible deaths of immigrant families coming in on rickety boats across the channel.

00:12:56.660 It's not going to help anything.

00:12:59.840 And almost everything that I dislike about the rise of the right in America and here and in Europe,

00:13:08.540 I can say is probably the fault of the left.

00:13:12.960 There was a period not that long ago, which you were both old enough to remember,

00:13:18.980 when at the top of the wheel of fortune were Clinton and Blair and the third way

00:13:24.560 and the kind of social democratic politics that looked set fair.

00:13:32.260 And they're now at the bottom of the wheel.

00:13:34.780 And they screwed up.

00:13:35.820 They screwed up in all kinds of ways.

00:13:39.200 They had the wind of economic fortune at their backs.

00:13:44.000 They had everything really to make the 90s and early 2000s a very prosperous time for the West.

00:13:51.120 And the fall of Russia and the Soviet bloc and the melting of the ice of that extraordinary hegemony

00:14:00.060 seemed to lead to the famous, you know, remarks,

00:14:05.600 Fukuyama and the end of history and all that.

00:14:09.980 But, you know, as we know, it failed.

00:14:12.300 And part of the reason it failed is that it only spoke to itself.

00:14:16.540 And its language became more and more alien to most people, I think.

00:14:25.640 And I think that's a very profound point because you see a lot of what is happening on the left,

00:14:29.680 and I say as someone who comes from the left,

00:14:31.560 and you see these kind of speech codes.

00:14:34.980 And now in Parliament, you see a Labour MP, Tahir Ali, talking openly about blasphemy laws.

00:14:42.280 Yeah.

00:14:42.860 And you go, and I find that, as somebody who has experienced a communist country,

00:14:48.500 I find that utterly terrifying.

00:14:50.080 You look at Scotland, a left-wing government, criminalising public performance.

00:14:55.740 This is terrifying, Stephen.

00:14:57.320 It is.

00:14:57.780 It is.

00:14:58.340 It's monstrous.

00:14:59.240 And it must be opposed.

00:15:00.300 And it must be opposed loudly.

00:15:03.540 And, you know, it is, in a strange way, up to people like you and me,

00:15:09.940 who are supposedly from the left.

00:15:11.160 I'm not saying your voice isn't powerful too, Constantine, because it is, obviously.

00:15:14.700 But, yeah, it's extraordinary to think we've come so quickly from a time when the blasphemy laws were being lifted

00:15:25.060 to a time when they're about to be, you know, pushed down our throats again.

00:15:31.480 I got involved with the blasphemy laws being lifted in Ireland, funnily enough,

00:15:35.920 because I did an interview with, do you remember Gabe Byrne?

00:15:39.360 Yes, I remember Gabe, yeah.

00:15:40.760 Very famous talk show.

00:15:42.180 Yeah.

00:15:42.320 And when he stepped down from the Late Late Show in Dublin and started to do this very personal interview show

00:15:49.580 about what people believed, and I did one rather pleasingly in number one Merrion Square,

00:15:57.080 which is where Oscar Wilde grew up as a boy.

00:16:01.160 And he talked about my atheism and so on, because it was a Sunday programme for Ireland,

00:16:08.640 and so it was basically a spiritual religious slot that he was occupying for the television.

00:16:15.340 And he said, now suppose, Stephen, suppose, suppose you die and you open your eyes and there's God.

00:16:25.440 What do you say to him?

00:16:27.540 If you're wrong, there he is.

00:16:29.320 And so I came out with a very standard theodicy, as it's called, the argument from evil.

00:16:38.580 I said, I'd say to him, how fucking dare you?

00:16:42.780 Bone cancer in children?

00:16:44.800 What were you thinking of?

00:16:46.280 You made this cosmos and this world, and you were allowed for this absolutely undeserved pain and so on.

00:16:52.380 And I went on and on like that.

00:16:55.200 Anyway, it went viral, this thing I said on his programme, and somebody went to the police

00:17:03.800 and said, he is breaking Ireland's blasphemy laws, which hadn't changed since the days

00:17:10.520 when the church basically ran the country, and he should be taken to court.

00:17:15.900 And it was all very Irish, because I said, yes, I suddenly pictured myself, pale but resolute,

00:17:24.500 gripping the dock and speaking up for my right to offend the religious.

00:17:32.980 And it turned out, of course, that the man who had gone to the police was actually an Irish barrister

00:17:39.020 who did it in order to test the blasphemy laws and to prove that they were ridiculous

00:17:43.640 and to force them to be changed, which they then were.

00:17:47.140 So Ireland got rid of them.

00:17:49.020 So that's how, and that was only, I don't know, eight years ago.

00:17:51.540 Well, I remember this.

00:17:52.560 Yes, you remember that, do you?

00:17:53.780 I remember that video that you did, the interview that you did, and I remember that clip,

00:17:57.280 which is, I think, exactly what we've been talking about on the show the entire time since we started it,

00:18:05.900 which is, when I was growing up, the people that I looked up to were the people who were challenging the orthodoxy

00:18:12.980 and saying the restrictions around humour, the restrictions around speech,

00:18:18.100 whether it was the life of Brian or any of this other stuff,

00:18:22.460 and, you know, Bill Hicks and George Carlin, people like that in America,

00:18:25.820 challenging the people who were saying, no, you can't say that, you can't do this,

00:18:29.240 you can't joke about that.

00:18:31.200 And then, without me changing my position or Francis changing his,

00:18:34.780 or I assume you changing yours,

00:18:36.800 suddenly the restrictions around speech were coming from an entirely different place.

00:18:41.300 This is what's happened, and this is why a lot of people, you know, you say,

00:18:45.420 well, I'm a kind of...

00:18:46.540 And that's why people don't really know where they are anymore.

00:18:49.700 No, they don't. You're right.

00:18:50.900 These cosy little partitions no longer apply, do they?

00:18:54.680 But it's interesting you mentioned someone like Bill Hicks,

00:18:56.640 who, you know, I hope people remember or look for on YouTube or wherever else his work is available,

00:19:02.420 because, unlike Dave Chappelle say,

00:19:05.820 not that Dave Chappelle has no right to say whatever he wants to say as a comedian,

00:19:09.380 I'm not going to argue with that,

00:19:11.340 but it's a pity that in order to show that they are supremely free in their speech,

00:19:17.300 a lot of comedians today will punch low.

00:19:21.280 They'll go for...

00:19:22.320 I mean, does no one have sympathy for some poor child

00:19:25.540 who believes that they're born into the wrong body as far as gender is concerned

00:19:29.560 and is trying very hard to live a life that they believe that somehow they're...

00:19:33.780 You know, this has happened in history for thousands of years.

00:19:37.000 There have been a certain proportion of people born like that, transgender.

00:19:40.940 Now, you know, to go into the whole transgender argument,

00:19:43.520 it will take us down some very dark and smelly alleys, I know,

00:19:47.000 but essentially, whatever one's view about real biological sex and gender,

00:19:53.020 not to have sympathy or indeed some admiration for the bravery of children

00:19:58.120 who turn up at school in different clothing and argue their, you know, their feelings.

00:20:04.160 You know, we can say that there are all kinds of reasons

00:20:07.780 why they should wait before puberty blockers come

00:20:10.600 or whatever it is that, you know, we disagree with

00:20:13.440 in terms of the transgender wokeness, if we want to call it that,

00:20:17.000 but nonetheless, not to have any sympathy for it

00:20:19.040 and to use them as the butt of your humour.

00:20:23.820 Bill Hicks used himself as the butt and you as the butt,

00:20:28.220 not some poor minority group that is already mocked enough in life.

00:20:34.680 And that seems to me the shame is that free speech champions

00:20:38.520 should be championing free speech,

00:20:41.040 which makes people feel deeply uncomfortable about who they are

00:20:44.440 because that's what satire is.

00:20:46.040 No, he's not the problem, she's not the problem, they're not the problem,

00:20:49.700 you are the fucking problem and I am the fucking problem.

00:20:53.020 Don't you get that?

00:20:54.540 It's our fault.

00:20:56.100 If the world is going to shit, it's because of me and it's because of you.

00:21:00.120 It's not because of them.

00:21:01.300 And that seems to me to be so important.

00:21:04.920 And that's what Jonathan Swift and all the great satirists understood

00:21:08.020 is the revolting nature of the individual human being

00:21:11.520 and their hypocrisy and their inability to face the blame for, you know,

00:21:19.400 and necessity cause and blame,

00:21:22.220 the Aristotelian qualities that we have to think about,

00:21:25.640 where, you know, where the problems in the world come from.

00:21:30.540 And I do think, you know, Chesterton, who was a great hero of mine

00:21:35.620 and a great hero of the right, you know, Chesterton's hedge,

00:21:38.280 I'm sure is something you've talked about in this world of disruption and so on.

00:21:42.260 And he's like a sort of Burkean figure in old conservatism, if you like.

00:21:47.220 And he wrote a letter to the newspapers when they said,

00:21:52.120 he said, I noticed you have been publishing a lot of correspondence

00:21:57.280 about the nature of the world and it's having gone to the dogs.

00:22:02.060 Everything being wrong with it.

00:22:03.280 And a lot of things have been blamed,

00:22:04.700 but I'm in a happy position to explain to you

00:22:08.600 why the world has gone to the dogs.

00:22:12.260 And it's my fault.

00:22:13.580 It's because of me.

00:22:14.600 I'm very surprised that other readers

00:22:17.080 haven't written a similar letter yet.

00:22:20.620 Stephen, but just to dig into that a little bit.

00:22:23.980 Yeah.

00:22:24.440 I don't, I, look, what you've just said is 100% true

00:22:28.520 and not enough of us look inwards enough

00:22:31.740 and improve ourselves first before trying to affect the world.

00:22:35.640 I completely agree with this.

00:22:37.180 But I also think that there is a little bit of nuance

00:22:39.600 to add to your analysis of Chappelle and Hicks and so on.

00:22:42.680 Because, look, Bill Hicks was very openly mocking of Christians, for example.

00:22:46.560 He wasn't saying, I'm the problem.

00:22:48.000 He was saying, you guys are stupid.

00:22:50.000 You're the problem, right?

00:22:51.140 Absolutely.

00:22:51.700 He was doing that.

00:22:52.660 And when it comes to Chappelle,

00:22:55.480 he's perfectly capable of defending himself.

00:22:57.320 But just the ideas level analysis, I would argue,

00:23:00.920 is it's perfectly possible to have both things in your head at once.

00:23:06.060 On the one hand, you can have compassion with anyone

00:23:08.460 who feels that they are in the wrong body,

00:23:11.080 or frankly, their sexuality is different to the majority of people

00:23:15.620 for which they are attacked and mocked and bullied in school

00:23:18.120 and all those things.

00:23:19.420 And at the same time, also recognize that some of the people

00:23:23.160 who are now or have been, maybe not now anymore,

00:23:25.900 but have been, in charge or at the forefront of telling comedians

00:23:30.500 you can't joke about this, telling people you can't say about this,

00:23:33.680 saying to people you can't have the opinion about biology that you do

00:23:38.760 because that's transphobic, when it's simply an opinion about biology.

00:23:42.280 You can't have this opinion about a child's ability to make decisions

00:23:46.000 about long-term medical interventions, right?

00:23:48.500 To mock that while holding the compassion and empathy for the child,

00:23:54.440 we can do both of those, can't we?

00:23:56.340 Yeah, we can.

00:23:57.180 You're absolutely right.

00:23:58.480 You're absolutely right.

00:23:59.580 And on the other hand, the only times I remember being told

00:24:04.700 what I can say on television were in the past

00:24:08.600 when you would sit with a journalist, and not journalist, sorry.

00:24:13.220 I don't know if that's Freudian or what it is.

00:24:14.880 You would sit with a lawyer.

00:24:15.740 Maybe journalists are, as Shelley called poets,

00:24:22.240 the unacknowledged legislators of the world.

00:24:24.220 Maybe that's journalists.

00:24:25.260 But anyway, you'd sit with a lawyer, BBC lawyer, ITV lawyer,

00:24:28.340 and he'd say, you can say two wanks or one fuck.

00:24:33.580 You can't say, I'm sorry, absolutely not.

00:24:37.820 Yeah, shit, you can, I'll allow you three shits in the half hour,

00:24:42.160 but no more, and please space them out.

00:24:43.920 Literally, that's being told what to say.

00:24:49.360 I've never been told what to say in, you know,

00:24:52.900 I'm aware of cancellation in the things that happen

00:24:56.840 as a result of people apparently saying things,

00:24:59.620 but I've never been aware of someone saying,

00:25:01.940 you can't say that.

00:25:03.120 But do you think that's because of the views that you have,

00:25:05.740 which align not entirely, but largely,

00:25:08.860 with the orthodoxy that exists in that world now?

00:25:11.120 To some extent, I suppose, and yes, I've never wanted to say,

00:25:15.340 you know, you fucking X, Y, or Z about some racial minority

00:25:20.740 or anything else.

00:25:21.700 But I'll give you a different example.

00:25:22.700 Sorry to interrupt.

00:25:23.720 For example, during the pandemic, there were people who were saying

00:25:27.020 COVID probably came from a lab in China.

00:25:29.000 And this was banned on YouTube.

00:25:31.300 If we had said it on our channel, our channel would have been taken down.

00:25:34.280 The US Congress just did a report saying, lo and behold,

00:25:38.040 it came from a lab in China.

00:25:39.080 It came from a lab in China.

00:25:39.800 Big surprise.

00:25:40.420 Yeah, I know.

00:25:41.060 That was just extraordinary and so destructive to everything that,

00:25:49.520 whether YouTube should be like that.

00:25:51.400 But yes, YouTube as a platform or whatever it likes to call itself,

00:25:54.560 it is extraordinary that you couldn't say that.

00:25:58.020 I don't know what they were reacting against or why.

00:26:00.400 I suppose it was, yeah, it was Fauci and his gang,

00:26:07.540 or it was the politicians who were trying to be, I don't know,

00:26:12.320 trying to keep China on side.

00:26:14.480 I don't know what their excuse would be for laying down such a bizarre,

00:26:20.740 absurd diktat.

00:26:23.120 I mean, it's very, very odd.

00:26:25.280 Yeah, those things are, you know.

00:26:26.880 What I'm getting at, Stephen, is this idea that a lot of people

00:26:31.300 position the conversation about freedom of expression as,

00:26:35.500 in a way that you sort of did there,

00:26:37.560 which is I've never wanted to say these people are immigrants.

00:26:39.120 No, I agree.

00:26:39.860 That's not good enough.

00:26:40.580 But that's not really what we're talking about.

00:26:42.700 We're talking about the ability of people to express very legitimate concerns

00:26:46.860 that you may disagree with, but nonetheless, as you said,

00:26:50.000 with Nigel Farage about immigration or about where COVID came from

00:26:53.820 or about medicalisation of transgender kids,

00:26:57.220 all sorts of things like that where it's a substantive debate.

00:27:01.040 Yes, it is.

00:27:01.480 It's just a debate about what's true,

00:27:04.160 and surely we've got to be able to have that debate

00:27:06.480 without people jumping in and saying,

00:27:08.120 you can't say this, because I'd much rather they were telling us not to say cunt

00:27:12.340 and you fuck only twice per interview,

00:27:15.520 but we could actually have the debate.

00:27:17.540 Yes.

00:27:17.900 Do you see what I'm saying?

00:27:18.400 I do understand.

00:27:19.720 I do understand what you're saying, and it is very important.

00:27:22.720 And it is also, there's something deeply patronising about the fact

00:27:27.800 that it's really saying,

00:27:29.100 it's OK for intelligent, educated people to have the debate

00:27:34.100 in a debate-y sort of way,

00:27:35.820 but the problem is it leads to all kinds of ordinary people out there.

00:27:40.260 The can-eye will bark all kinds of ugly things,

00:27:45.220 and that's what we're stopping.

00:27:47.360 Because that is no way to legislate for anything,

00:27:51.840 or it's no way to run a Welk stall, as the old phrase goes.

00:27:55.680 Yeah, I mean, you are right.

00:27:57.100 You know, what you stand for here on Trigonometry is correct.

00:28:01.960 There is something deeply, deeply rotten in the state of Denmark,

00:28:06.240 as Hamlet puts it.

00:28:08.120 There is something amiss in our polity that we have to face,

00:28:14.560 and that people, I was going to say people who have influence,

00:28:21.700 but then that means influencers.

00:28:24.560 I'm not sure it does.

00:28:25.860 No, it probably doesn't.

00:28:27.320 That's a separate thing.

00:28:29.640 But, you know, people like you and people in politics

00:28:33.420 and people who...

00:28:36.860 I mean, isn't the problem also that there is no locus of authority anymore

00:28:43.380 whom we can admire and respect?

00:28:47.900 You know, I used to say, as a sort of joke,

00:28:49.880 when the Queen and David Attenborough died,

00:28:51.480 then there's nothing left for us to look up to in the world,

00:28:54.800 if you're British, in terms of just sort of,

00:28:57.280 oh, bless, you know, someone...

00:28:58.880 Because there's certainly no one...

00:29:00.280 There's no...

00:29:01.400 I don't know how you'd put it.

00:29:03.560 There's not even a Wizard of Oz operating the levers in the background.

00:29:07.360 There's just nobody.

00:29:09.280 And...

00:29:09.800 But isn't that their fault, Steve?

00:29:12.220 Oh, yes.

00:29:12.760 It is their fault.

00:29:13.620 Yeah.

00:29:14.100 Because they've betrayed our trust.

00:29:15.740 Absolutely.

00:29:16.400 I'm saying that it is the failure of the left.

00:29:18.080 It's the failure of authority.

00:29:19.420 It's the failure of the establishment, or whatever one wants to call it.

00:29:23.520 It is...

00:29:24.540 And, of course, media, we still...

00:29:28.560 You and I probably still look at newspapers.

00:29:30.600 But nobody else does that.

00:29:32.960 They are completely irrelevant, really.

00:29:37.040 And so you have this peculiar situation

00:29:40.760 that newspapers are, to some extent,

00:29:44.320 constrained by their responsibilities as publishers,

00:29:49.160 whereas the enormous platforms like Facebook and Instagram,

00:29:53.980 TikTok and the YouTube and the X,

00:30:00.860 have no responsibility in that regard at all.

00:30:03.600 They are platforms and they take no responsibility.

00:30:08.280 And they are beacons of free speech,

00:30:10.360 which, apparently, if you're Elon Musk

00:30:12.620 and have a loud hailer the size of whales

00:30:16.000 and you stand in a public square

00:30:17.900 where everybody else is this big,

00:30:20.560 that's free speech, apparently.

00:30:24.320 But let's call...

00:30:27.180 Let's call the channels of communication that we have rivers.

00:30:34.700 And they flow...

00:30:37.000 And they used to be mighty rivers

00:30:38.640 with grand bridges and structures

00:30:40.480 and they were the Times newspaper and the BBC.

00:30:43.780 And the river was something you could swim in

00:30:46.740 and you could occasionally find it...

00:30:50.680 You know, a little turd would float along.

00:30:52.740 And you'd think, oh, that's unpleasant.

00:30:55.120 But generally speaking,

00:30:56.780 the rivers of discourse were...

00:31:00.280 You could live with them.

00:31:02.180 You could swim and splash about

00:31:03.660 and see other people and wave at them.

00:31:06.040 And some would be at the other bank

00:31:07.340 and you thought they were a bit odd

00:31:09.220 and they thought you were a bit odd.

00:31:10.920 But now all those rivers are contaminated

00:31:14.380 just as British rivers are.

00:31:16.040 They're absolutely full of nothing but raw sewage.

00:31:18.920 And everybody else who's swimming in the river

00:31:21.880 is the enemy and you hate them

00:31:23.540 and they hate you.

00:31:24.800 And there is no clean water anymore, anywhere.

00:31:29.400 Everything is polluted.

00:31:31.080 And this is true where it upsets me more

00:31:35.460 in a strange kind of way

00:31:36.740 is in art, if you like,

00:31:41.200 or at least the creative industries

00:31:43.060 or whatever we like to call it.

00:31:44.640 that if you tried to write a play or a novel

00:31:50.760 that was set here today

00:31:53.500 in Britain or in the West now,

00:31:58.340 it would be impossible

00:31:59.980 not to address the discourse.

00:32:03.920 In other words, every character in the book

00:32:06.060 represents a point of view in the discourse,

00:32:09.720 the cultural discourse

00:32:10.860 that we all sort of understand

00:32:13.220 but can't quite name this world

00:32:15.040 of wokeness but also anti-wokeness

00:32:18.320 and all the terrors and embarrassments

00:32:22.960 that it invokes.

00:32:25.240 And that's why the last four books I've written

00:32:29.460 have been set in the world of Greek mythology.

00:32:33.180 Because as Wagner pointed out,

00:32:35.920 if you set a drama in the present day,

00:32:39.020 it is about the bourgeois and the aristocracy

00:32:43.560 and the working class.

00:32:44.660 He was writing in the 1880s.

00:32:46.040 It's about the death of kings.

00:32:49.000 It's about now, where we are.

00:32:51.380 And so you look at it and it dates instantly.

00:32:53.760 But if you set it in the world of myth,

00:32:56.080 it's pure humanity.

00:32:57.800 It's father-daughter.

00:32:59.200 It's revenge.

00:33:00.720 It's loyalty.

00:33:01.800 It's honour.

00:33:02.440 It's betrayal.

00:33:03.540 It's faithfulness.

00:33:04.540 It's all the pure elements

00:33:06.600 of what it is to be human

00:33:07.840 can be discussed

00:33:09.000 without the fucking discourse,

00:33:11.800 without the horror of having to say,

00:33:13.980 is he gay?

00:33:14.520 Is he straight?

00:33:15.200 Is she this?

00:33:15.940 Is she that?

00:33:16.760 What do they stand for?

00:33:18.020 Where do they, you know,

00:33:18.900 what do they believe in terms of now?

00:33:21.900 Because now is, you know,

00:33:23.420 again, to have the river,

00:33:25.380 now is just one little moment

00:33:27.840 of a moving river.

00:33:28.740 And morality is not a permanent thing.

00:33:34.020 It's manners.

00:33:34.880 It's mores.

00:33:35.520 It is custom.

00:33:37.180 And it was the custom for it to be perfectly okay

00:33:40.280 to stir sugar into tea.

00:33:44.840 Our ancestors would do that,

00:33:46.680 knowing that they'd both been plucked by slaves.

00:33:50.120 And it was fine.

00:33:51.500 Sorry, that's all I'm saying.

00:33:52.160 But now it isn't.

00:33:53.300 It's now immoral.

00:33:54.560 But because the river moves, yeah.

00:33:56.740 Do you think, Stephen,

00:33:58.180 part of the problem is,

00:33:59.600 is the way that language has changed.

00:34:02.340 Now, of course, language always changes.

00:34:04.420 Yeah.

00:34:04.680 But if you look at words like safety, for instance,

00:34:07.660 safety on a university campus,

00:34:10.060 a safe space,

00:34:11.340 effectively means that

00:34:13.380 I don't want to hear certain viewpoints

00:34:15.340 because they make me feel uncomfortable.

00:34:17.040 You talk to the older generation,

00:34:19.140 safety means prevention of physical harm.

00:34:21.300 Yes.

00:34:22.180 Do you think part of the problem

00:34:23.500 is that we're now having conversations

00:34:25.560 where we're using words,

00:34:27.320 but for different people

00:34:28.880 on different ends of the political spectrum,

00:34:31.080 these words have totally different meanings.

00:34:33.560 So it's a fundamental problem

00:34:36.400 because if we can't agree on the meaning of language,

00:34:38.900 how can we possibly have

00:34:40.460 any type of productive conversation?

00:34:42.040 This has always been the case.

00:34:43.660 I mean, I remember Margaret Thatcher saying,

00:34:45.700 quite astonishingly,

00:34:46.960 when she banned a program by Thames TV,

00:34:50.760 a documentary about the IRA figures

00:34:56.780 being assassinated in Gibraltar

00:34:58.660 called Death on the Rock.

00:35:00.100 I don't know if I remember.

00:35:00.740 Anyway, it was a Thames TV.

00:35:02.600 And she had sort of said

00:35:04.860 that the program prejudged something.

00:35:07.540 She said,

00:35:08.100 and that it broke the national security.

00:35:13.280 And she said,

00:35:14.140 if something like that happens,

00:35:15.560 then freedom dies, she said.

00:35:18.600 I remember thinking,

00:35:20.660 your interpretation of the word freedom

00:35:23.120 is very different from mine, Prime Minister.

00:35:26.200 And this is the problem.

00:35:27.620 I mean, you know,

00:35:28.100 you go back to philosophers like T.E. Hume,

00:35:30.380 the philosopher, poet,

00:35:31.840 who talked about capital letter moralists,

00:35:34.740 you know,

00:35:34.980 who use words like justice, mercy, freedom

00:35:37.660 with capital letters.

00:35:38.760 But he said that that's like presenting someone

00:35:42.180 with a currency note that says three and a half pounds.

00:35:46.880 We don't recognize it.

00:35:48.580 It's not legal tender

00:35:50.800 to just to use words in that manner

00:35:54.700 that aren't an agreed exchange.

00:35:56.760 And you can't agree the exchange of word freedom.

00:35:59.760 It's obviously freedom from or freedom to.

00:36:02.140 And it's similar,

00:36:07.040 justice, mercy, decency.

00:36:10.940 So I remember precisely the same thing.

00:36:13.280 What safety meant to Mrs. Whitehouse

00:36:17.980 was not saying these disgusting things on television

00:36:23.040 that children would be exposed to.

00:36:25.040 And it was unsafe for children

00:36:26.800 to hear and see sexual references on television.

00:36:30.300 I mean, this was a massive thing.

00:36:32.360 And it was, you know,

00:36:33.280 and things were censored as a result all the time.

00:36:37.040 And as you say,

00:36:38.080 that's to us now,

00:36:39.140 that's easy.

00:36:40.080 Well, who cares?

00:36:41.220 I would rather live in a world

00:36:43.060 in which you, as you say,

00:36:44.160 you can't say fucking cunt on television

00:36:45.920 than one in which you can't debate

00:36:47.520 an issue openly and so on.

00:36:51.800 And I generally agree with you,

00:36:54.640 but it'd be nice to live inside.

00:36:56.340 We'd be free to do both, obviously.

00:36:59.520 It's, yeah,

00:37:00.840 it's always been the case

00:37:01.860 that words have had different meanings

00:37:03.380 to different people.

00:37:04.320 And I think the safety is a good example,

00:37:07.620 but it's not new.

00:37:09.620 And you want to protect children

00:37:12.040 was always the thing

00:37:13.900 about sexual references on television.

00:37:15.840 And it still is.

00:37:16.700 For most people,

00:37:17.560 a lot of people are still very prudish

00:37:19.820 about all kinds of things appearing on television.

00:37:22.220 And there are warnings,

00:37:23.540 trigger warnings,

00:37:24.280 as we call them now.

00:37:26.080 And of course,

00:37:27.200 that is kind of makes the,

00:37:29.640 you know,

00:37:30.720 the hackles rise

00:37:31.580 when you hear that.

00:37:33.180 But in fact,

00:37:33.880 there always were trigger warnings,

00:37:36.060 but they were just of a different nature

00:37:38.060 and they didn't use the word trigger.

00:37:40.200 So that being the case,

00:37:42.140 so let's take another word,

00:37:43.500 kindness.

00:37:44.480 Because a lot of time

00:37:45.660 when people talk about kindness,

00:37:47.060 it actually means

00:37:48.600 don't challenge me.

00:37:49.960 Don't make me feel uncomfortable.

00:37:52.160 It's not kind for you

00:37:53.580 to say these things

00:37:54.740 or to challenge me

00:37:55.560 or to disagree with me.

00:37:57.280 And to me,

00:37:57.800 that's not the meaning of the word.

00:37:59.700 No.

00:38:00.660 No, I agree.

00:38:01.740 And the word empathy

00:38:02.700 has been sort of raped.

00:38:06.160 Well, we're all now cancelled.

00:38:08.420 The word rape has also had an evolution.

00:38:12.080 Yeah, it's a good word.

00:38:13.200 It means disease.

00:38:14.020 By the way,

00:38:14.400 this video has been demonetised

00:38:16.040 about 73 times by now.

00:38:19.180 Stephen Fry is our dream guest

00:38:20.800 and we will make zero money

00:38:22.520 from this episode.

00:38:23.760 Thank you.

00:38:24.180 Yeah, no, I'm sorry about that.

00:38:25.860 No, yeah.

00:38:26.340 I mean, you have to...

00:38:30.340 I'm always very keen

00:38:34.180 when I'm in America

00:38:34.900 to say died

00:38:35.980 when someone says

00:38:37.380 I hear so-and-so passed.

00:38:41.220 Oh, you mean died?

00:38:43.080 Very important to get that across,

00:38:44.900 you know,

00:38:45.120 because there is the euphemistic element

00:38:47.340 and rape is an important word

00:38:49.020 but it means to seize

00:38:49.920 and obviously we use words like raptor

00:38:51.700 to describe birds that seize,

00:38:54.620 you know,

00:38:54.940 raptors

00:38:55.460 and velociraptors

00:38:56.940 and so on

00:38:58.520 and rapine

00:38:59.300 and so on.

00:39:03.180 And

00:39:03.660 to start to get afraid of a word

00:39:06.540 is a very bad,

00:39:08.360 I think,

00:39:08.880 very bad thing psychologically.

00:39:10.320 Why?

00:39:10.900 Why, Stephen?

00:39:11.420 Because

00:39:12.880 I don't think...

00:39:14.640 Because you're not facing the truth

00:39:15.640 behind the word.

00:39:16.520 Thank God.

00:39:17.320 And it's really essential,

00:39:19.200 you know,

00:39:19.560 when one does.

00:39:20.840 It's, you know,

00:39:24.520 things like

00:39:26.360 death and difficulty

00:39:28.360 and poverty

00:39:30.960 and distress

00:39:32.020 and distress

00:39:32.040 and the real truth

00:39:34.440 of the agonies

00:39:35.560 and the things

00:39:36.840 that can happen

00:39:37.440 to human beings

00:39:38.180 can't be covered up

00:39:39.580 and brushed over

00:39:40.380 and they're difficult

00:39:43.040 for people to hear

00:39:44.520 and to handle

00:39:45.160 and so,

00:39:46.740 as you say,

00:39:47.360 they'd rather just

00:39:48.280 everything get smothered

00:39:49.360 in empathy

00:39:50.240 and kindness

00:39:50.940 and I agree.

00:39:52.780 I mean,

00:39:53.200 it's...

00:39:54.280 The awful pedantic

00:39:57.060 figure in me

00:39:58.500 loves the word kind

00:39:59.520 because it is

00:40:00.320 a really interesting word.

00:40:02.540 In Chaucer's day

00:40:03.300 it meant nature.

00:40:04.700 Nature.

00:40:05.360 And it still does

00:40:06.060 to some extent.

00:40:07.540 Their own kind.

00:40:10.080 Their kind

00:40:11.100 is related to kin.

00:40:12.740 Your kin.

00:40:14.860 Your kind.

00:40:16.780 Mankind.

00:40:18.840 You know,

00:40:19.280 humankind.

00:40:20.600 Fishkind,

00:40:21.340 if you wanted

00:40:21.740 to put it that way.

00:40:23.400 And so,

00:40:24.720 when you're talking

00:40:25.600 about being kind,

00:40:27.700 it is sort of

00:40:28.680 being connected

00:40:30.140 to the nature

00:40:32.760 of things.

00:40:34.300 To who we all are.

00:40:37.420 It's not just

00:40:38.200 patting people

00:40:38.780 on the head

00:40:39.320 and saying,

00:40:39.880 it's all right.

00:40:40.420 There, there.

00:40:41.400 It's okay.

00:40:43.720 Obviously,

00:40:44.720 a lot of it

00:40:46.700 is personal

00:40:48.520 and selfish.

00:40:49.380 We talk about

00:40:50.060 abstract things

00:40:50.820 all the time.

00:40:52.300 Ideas.

00:40:53.440 But our human lives

00:40:55.040 are about meeting

00:40:55.920 the eyes of other people

00:40:56.940 you see in the street,

00:40:58.760 in the, you know,

00:40:59.560 in the pub,

00:41:00.980 down the road,

00:41:01.720 or people you work with,

00:41:02.860 people in the office

00:41:03.940 and so on,

00:41:04.520 and how you deal with them

00:41:05.520 and how you relate to them.

00:41:07.140 And most of us

00:41:08.360 want to see

00:41:09.020 in the eyes of others

00:41:10.060 something

00:41:11.160 that reflects

00:41:12.260 well on us.

00:41:13.340 We are

00:41:14.080 basically narcissistic.

00:41:16.340 We look at,

00:41:16.760 we look at for our reflection

00:41:18.120 in someone else's

00:41:19.540 pupils

00:41:20.240 and we want to see back

00:41:22.000 that we're liked

00:41:23.060 and we're valued

00:41:23.820 and we're understood

00:41:24.820 and we're appreciated

00:41:26.020 and we're not,

00:41:28.140 you know,

00:41:28.580 subject to the contempt

00:41:29.820 and dislike

00:41:30.700 of other people.

00:41:32.300 You know,

00:41:32.880 popularity.

00:41:33.620 We're like when you're children.

00:41:34.580 Oh my God,

00:41:35.080 I'm unpopular.

00:41:35.880 It's the worst feeling

00:41:36.840 in the world.

00:41:38.220 We want,

00:41:38.840 I mean,

00:41:39.280 some people are very good

00:41:40.260 at saying,

00:41:40.620 I don't give a fuck

00:41:41.240 what people think of me

00:41:42.120 and I'm very impressed

00:41:44.300 if they really believe that.

00:41:45.780 But most of us

00:41:46.540 want that feeling

00:41:48.800 of reciprocal appreciation

00:41:52.620 and being liked

00:41:54.060 and liking

00:41:54.940 and so on

00:41:56.180 in a very simple way.

00:41:57.720 And so I suppose

00:42:00.980 the trouble is

00:42:02.900 you have to get into

00:42:05.340 some sort of psychological,

00:42:06.760 which can often be

00:42:07.500 very impertinent,

00:42:09.160 suggestion

00:42:10.940 that when people

00:42:13.140 ask others to be kind,

00:42:15.740 what they really need

00:42:17.020 is to be kind to themselves

00:42:18.200 and forgive themselves

00:42:19.200 for whatever it is

00:42:20.860 that they feel bad about.

00:42:22.060 Because mostly

00:42:23.360 we do feel bad

00:42:25.200 about things.

00:42:26.100 I mean,

00:42:26.340 I don't know about you,

00:42:27.300 it's,

00:42:28.860 when I try and get to sleep

00:42:30.300 at night,

00:42:31.480 I spend a fair amount

00:42:33.300 of time thinking,

00:42:33.960 oh God,

00:42:34.460 why did I say that?

00:42:36.260 Well,

00:42:36.540 I made such a fool

00:42:38.240 of myself.

00:42:38.900 Why did I do that?

00:42:39.940 Why didn't I

00:42:41.080 try a bit harder?

00:42:42.720 Why was I lazy here?

00:42:44.100 Why was I,

00:42:44.560 you know,

00:42:45.000 I mean,

00:42:46.820 I don't want to overstate it

00:42:48.780 as if I'm some kind

00:42:49.540 of trying to be a saint

00:42:50.420 all the time,

00:42:51.120 but there is

00:42:52.340 this impulse,

00:42:55.620 there is Jiminy Cricket

00:42:56.680 on our shoulder

00:42:57.400 whispering,

00:42:58.240 saying,

00:42:58.540 you're fucked up,

00:42:59.280 you know,

00:42:59.520 you're bad,

00:43:00.660 you're a bad person,

00:43:01.680 why are you like this?

00:43:02.920 Come on,

00:43:03.840 you can be better.

00:43:05.160 This deontic,

00:43:06.620 if you like,

00:43:07.500 sense of,

00:43:08.360 of an obligation

00:43:09.480 to be better than one is,

00:43:10.980 of a duty,

00:43:12.120 of a kind of moral need

00:43:14.940 to be good,

00:43:19.500 to be virtuous

00:43:20.220 in some way.

00:43:22.500 And I think

00:43:25.940 to get dragged

00:43:30.120 into abstract ideas

00:43:31.580 of what is right

00:43:32.360 and wrong

00:43:32.780 in politics

00:43:33.520 or in culture

00:43:34.340 or in society,

00:43:35.700 I mean,

00:43:37.540 I think these are all

00:43:38.240 important,

00:43:39.720 but I tend to,

00:43:42.580 I suppose it's because

00:43:43.640 English literature

00:43:44.720 and novels

00:43:46.020 and plays

00:43:46.840 and art

00:43:47.520 to me

00:43:48.360 are mankind's

00:43:49.800 supreme way

00:43:50.600 of expressing

00:43:51.160 all these things,

00:43:52.100 not political writing,

00:43:53.580 not history,

00:43:54.480 although those are interesting.

00:43:55.820 I mean,

00:43:55.980 we know more

00:43:56.820 about the First World War

00:43:58.200 because of the few poems

00:43:59.740 of Wilfred Owen

00:44:00.480 than of every single

00:44:01.980 history book

00:44:02.580 written about

00:44:03.140 the First World War

00:44:03.920 because we know

00:44:04.840 what it's like

00:44:05.400 to be there.

00:44:06.320 We can feel

00:44:07.200 and smell

00:44:07.940 and hear

00:44:08.600 the entire experience.

00:44:11.500 And again,

00:44:13.000 to Chesterton,

00:44:13.820 the thing that I always

00:44:14.740 return to

00:44:15.780 is his refusal

00:44:17.600 to respect

00:44:19.200 abstract statements

00:44:20.800 and he makes it funny.

00:44:22.600 So here's

00:44:23.500 a very good example.

00:44:24.520 He begins an essay.

00:44:26.460 I read the other day

00:44:27.700 the following statement.

00:44:30.380 At the trumpet call

00:44:31.760 of Ibsen and Shaw,

00:44:33.660 modern woman

00:44:34.520 rises to take

00:44:35.680 her place

00:44:36.180 in society.

00:44:38.000 And I thought to myself,

00:44:38.880 well,

00:44:38.980 that's very good news.

00:44:41.200 Who do I know

00:44:42.360 who's a modern woman?

00:44:43.840 Mrs. Button.

00:44:44.760 She comes in

00:44:45.360 from Clapham

00:44:45.980 every day

00:44:46.520 to scrub the floors

00:44:47.720 and clean the house

00:44:49.500 and beat the carpets.

00:44:51.940 And she's 38.

00:44:54.420 She has five children

00:44:55.720 and she's as modern

00:44:57.600 a woman

00:44:57.900 as I can think of.

00:44:58.780 She takes the bus

00:44:59.580 or the train

00:45:00.220 and she comes here.

00:45:01.640 So I say to myself,

00:45:02.660 at the trumpet call

00:45:03.920 of Ibsen and Shaw,

00:45:05.420 Mrs. Button

00:45:06.100 rises to take

00:45:07.260 her place

00:45:07.720 in society.

00:45:08.720 And I realize

00:45:09.480 the statement

00:45:09.920 is not only nonsense

00:45:10.880 but it's pernicious nonsense

00:45:12.360 because of course

00:45:13.520 what he was responding to

00:45:14.620 was some airy article

00:45:16.060 by some

00:45:16.580 Bloomsbury idiot

00:45:17.920 saying that

00:45:19.600 Ibsen and Shaw

00:45:20.480 had changed the world.

00:45:21.380 But as a model

00:45:23.900 of thinking

00:45:24.640 I think it's superb.

00:45:26.440 Just don't trust

00:45:27.460 these abstract statements

00:45:28.740 about people feel

00:45:29.940 that well okay

00:45:30.820 I think of a person

00:45:32.100 Mrs. Button

00:45:33.060 or Mr. Button

00:45:34.020 and is that really true

00:45:35.580 what you're saying?

00:45:36.640 I don't think it is.

00:45:37.940 You're talking about

00:45:38.700 this very small

00:45:39.620 narrow band

00:45:40.260 of what used to be called

00:45:41.720 in the 90s

00:45:42.840 the chattering classes

00:45:43.880 and then became

00:45:44.720 the wokarati

00:45:45.660 or some other

00:45:46.880 hideous name

00:45:47.640 for us.

00:45:48.320 The elite of course

00:45:51.020 is the one

00:45:51.420 that people like

00:45:51.960 to use now

00:45:52.620 mostly billionaires

00:45:54.040 call people the elite

00:45:55.200 and I think

00:45:59.320 we should really

00:46:00.020 remember

00:46:00.700 that we don't

00:46:01.480 speak for humanity

00:46:02.520 we don't

00:46:03.540 you know

00:46:03.920 the abstract statements

00:46:05.760 we make about

00:46:06.580 truth and freedom

00:46:07.460 and so on

00:46:08.160 are very interesting

00:46:09.780 and they make

00:46:10.320 a good essay

00:46:11.040 whether it's

00:46:11.700 an oral essay

00:46:12.760 like a podcast

00:46:13.820 or a conversation

00:46:15.080 but the experience

00:46:17.300 of the individual

00:46:18.240 I come back

00:46:19.120 to this

00:46:19.400 empirical way

00:46:20.220 of thinking

00:46:21.040 you know

00:46:21.520 and that's

00:46:23.000 what comedians

00:46:23.640 do

00:46:23.920 you know

00:46:24.680 Woody Allen

00:46:28.580 sort of thing

00:46:29.180 not only

00:46:30.040 am I not sure

00:46:31.180 that there's a god

00:46:32.080 I'm pretty sure

00:46:32.980 that you can't

00:46:35.000 get a dentist

00:46:35.560 on Saturdays

00:46:36.520 it's the real world

00:46:38.580 where things

00:46:39.220 are messy

00:46:40.100 and confusing

00:46:41.440 is

00:46:43.360 it doesn't

00:46:44.940 follow the

00:46:45.700 lines of argument

00:46:47.060 that journalists

00:46:49.120 and podcasters

00:46:50.500 with all respect

00:46:51.120 necessarily

00:46:51.860 feel are the

00:46:53.400 vital

00:46:53.960 kind of

00:46:54.860 currents

00:46:55.340 of human

00:46:57.280 discourse

00:46:57.740 because I think

00:46:58.420 for most people

00:47:00.100 these things are

00:47:00.780 you know

00:47:01.180 in the same way

00:47:02.080 that most people

00:47:02.640 are not monstrous

00:47:03.640 in Hungary

00:47:05.940 or in

00:47:06.740 some other country

00:47:08.680 whose leader

00:47:10.500 we may distrust

00:47:11.440 and

00:47:13.180 it's

00:47:15.820 only

00:47:16.700 it's only

00:47:18.220 in

00:47:18.500 when you're

00:47:19.440 reading

00:47:19.880 and

00:47:20.300 it's the

00:47:23.240 problem

00:47:24.260 of

00:47:24.660 you know

00:47:27.220 the

00:47:27.480 Facebook

00:47:28.460 thing

00:47:29.780 a two word

00:47:31.900 algorithm

00:47:32.400 that

00:47:33.620 when

00:47:35.600 you know

00:47:36.660 it started

00:47:37.060 to get

00:47:37.340 100 million

00:47:37.920 300 million

00:47:38.540 500 million

00:47:39.340 a billion

00:47:39.940 users

00:47:40.680 from

00:47:41.240 2006

00:47:42.400 7

00:47:42.840 8

00:47:43.120 9

00:47:43.420 as it

00:47:43.720 was

00:47:43.880 growing

00:47:44.300 out of

00:47:45.380 only

00:47:45.720 Ivy League

00:47:46.200 universities

00:47:46.780 then into

00:47:47.260 all universities

00:47:47.980 then into

00:47:48.780 world universities

00:47:49.720 then into

00:47:50.200 ordinary people

00:47:51.000 suddenly all

00:47:52.000 this server

00:47:52.600 expense

00:47:53.200 in those

00:47:53.680 days

00:47:53.980 you know

00:47:54.280 Moore's Law

00:47:54.680 hadn't made

00:47:55.260 servers quite as

00:47:56.480 reliable

00:47:56.980 and cheap

00:47:58.080 as they are

00:47:58.640 now

00:47:58.980 they had to

00:48:00.200 pay for

00:48:00.480 itself

00:48:00.720 so they had

00:48:01.120 to have

00:48:01.320 advertising

00:48:01.840 and that's

00:48:02.360 all reasonable

00:48:02.900 and in order

00:48:04.540 to get

00:48:04.860 advertising

00:48:05.360 this was a

00:48:05.880 whole new

00:48:06.260 model for

00:48:06.820 advertising

00:48:07.400 Facebook

00:48:07.940 they asked

00:48:10.260 a very

00:48:10.520 simple

00:48:10.840 question

00:48:11.880 of their

00:48:13.520 electronic

00:48:15.120 circuits

00:48:15.800 by putting

00:48:16.480 in an

00:48:16.780 algorithm

00:48:17.160 that said

00:48:18.360 quite reasonably

00:48:19.200 maximize

00:48:20.120 engagement

00:48:20.940 that as

00:48:22.620 long as

00:48:23.140 Facebook

00:48:23.940 maximized

00:48:24.940 engagement

00:48:25.480 it would

00:48:26.080 get eyeballs

00:48:26.840 and clicks

00:48:27.640 for the

00:48:28.420 advertisers

00:48:28.920 which is

00:48:29.500 what the

00:48:29.740 advertisers

00:48:30.140 wanted

00:48:30.580 and to

00:48:32.200 give

00:48:32.560 you know

00:48:33.140 all

00:48:34.320 possible

00:48:35.420 allowances

00:48:37.360 to

00:48:37.860 Zuckerberg

00:48:38.480 whatever

00:48:38.700 one may

00:48:39.240 think

00:48:39.440 of him

00:48:39.660 he probably

00:48:40.220 didn't

00:48:40.680 realize

00:48:41.100 as nobody

00:48:41.820 else did

00:48:42.400 at the

00:48:42.740 time

00:48:43.140 that if

00:48:44.000 you say

00:48:44.320 maximize

00:48:44.800 engagement

00:48:45.500 to a

00:48:46.020 little

00:48:46.300 robotic

00:48:47.460 algorithm

00:48:48.680 it will

00:48:50.160 discover

00:48:50.600 almost

00:48:51.700 instantly

00:48:52.300 that means

00:48:53.140 maximize

00:48:53.740 hatred

00:48:54.520 outrage

00:48:55.740 fury

00:48:56.740 you know

00:48:58.160 misery

00:48:58.960 envy

00:48:59.920 resentment

00:49:00.700 basically

00:49:01.360 entire

00:49:02.460 Pandora's

00:49:03.840 box

00:49:04.180 and that's

00:49:06.180 what leapt

00:49:06.560 out

00:49:06.880 in you

00:49:07.420 know

00:49:07.540 you can

00:49:08.320 say

00:49:08.560 when it

00:49:08.840 was

00:49:09.120 almost

00:49:09.480 2012

00:49:10.060 13

00:49:10.980 14

00:49:11.420 it

00:49:11.700 started

00:49:12.020 to

00:49:12.240 happen

00:49:12.520 which

00:49:13.540 was

00:49:13.680 also

00:49:13.900 the

00:49:14.100 time

00:49:14.340 most

00:49:14.540 children

00:49:14.880 got

00:49:15.460 phones

00:49:16.440 smartphones

00:49:17.000 suddenly

00:49:18.200 the majority

00:49:18.720 of children

00:49:19.220 had them

00:49:19.620 by then

00:49:20.020 so

00:49:21.920 we are

00:49:24.440 living in

00:49:24.940 a world

00:49:25.300 in which

00:49:26.200 engagement

00:49:26.960 has been

00:49:27.360 maximized

00:49:27.880 in other

00:49:28.240 words

00:49:28.440 fury

00:49:28.820 has been

00:49:29.220 maximized

00:49:29.820 and people

00:49:30.240 have been

00:49:30.640 so in

00:49:31.560 the same

00:49:31.880 way that

00:49:32.200 people say

00:49:32.660 kindness

00:49:33.040 is just

00:49:33.460 protect me

00:49:34.140 and be

00:49:34.600 nice to

00:49:35.020 me please

00:49:35.660 and make

00:49:37.140 me feel

00:49:37.460 warm and

00:49:37.960 cozy

00:49:38.340 in a way

00:49:41.460 people also

00:49:42.040 saying

00:49:42.480 privilege my

00:49:43.440 outrage

00:49:44.020 allow me to

00:49:44.740 be disgusted

00:49:45.500 and outraged

00:49:46.160 by everybody

00:49:46.720 else

00:49:47.120 allow me to

00:49:48.000 be furious

00:49:48.620 allow me to

00:49:49.280 express my

00:49:50.040 absolute

00:49:50.440 hatred of

00:49:51.100 everything

00:49:51.480 and yes

00:49:52.240 you're

00:49:52.780 allowed to

00:49:53.460 but do

00:49:54.040 really

00:49:54.560 that's like

00:49:55.760 saying let

00:49:56.260 me you know

00:49:57.240 forget

00:49:57.620 laboratories

00:49:58.060 let me

00:49:58.460 shit in

00:49:58.760 the corner

00:49:59.200 the results

00:50:01.060 will not

00:50:01.540 be pleasant

00:50:02.060 it's a very

00:50:03.180 good point

00:50:03.860 and particularly

00:50:04.460 the point

00:50:06.640 you made

00:50:07.040 about getting

00:50:08.060 carried away

00:50:08.820 with ideas

00:50:09.800 that sound

00:50:10.940 good but

00:50:11.400 actually

00:50:11.660 increasingly

00:50:12.060 don't apply

00:50:12.660 to real

00:50:13.020 people

00:50:13.300 I gratefully

00:50:14.680 accept the

00:50:15.300 rebuke

00:50:15.780 it wasn't a

00:50:16.560 rebuke

00:50:16.800 I'm as guilty

00:50:18.160 as anybody

00:50:18.820 else

00:50:19.200 we all are

00:50:19.420 absolutely

00:50:20.900 Stephen

00:50:21.520 we've got to

00:50:22.360 wrap up

00:50:22.660 because we

00:50:22.960 want to

00:50:23.240 respect your

00:50:23.740 time

00:50:24.060 but before

00:50:24.760 we ask you

00:50:25.300 our last

00:50:25.620 question

00:50:25.920 and go to

00:50:26.400 Substack

00:50:26.780 and ask you

00:50:27.260 questions from

00:50:27.780 our supporters

00:50:28.380 the one thing

00:50:29.420 that strikes me

00:50:30.000 most about you

00:50:30.860 as we sit

00:50:31.420 across from

00:50:32.000 each other

00:50:32.360 is I think

00:50:33.440 you're

00:50:34.120 incredibly

00:50:35.400 and given

00:50:36.160 your family

00:50:36.960 background

00:50:37.340 this might

00:50:38.080 sound strange

00:50:38.520 but you're

00:50:38.780 incredibly

00:50:39.200 British

00:50:39.600 in the most

00:50:40.780 amazing way

00:50:41.460 and I think

00:50:41.800 you'd be

00:50:42.140 recognized

00:50:42.700 around the

00:50:43.160 world as

00:50:43.640 actually being

00:50:44.160 incredibly

00:50:44.720 British

00:50:45.120 so the

00:50:46.080 question I

00:50:46.500 want to

00:50:46.700 ask you

00:50:47.240 is

00:50:48.440 what does

00:50:49.320 it mean

00:50:49.720 to be

00:50:50.020 British

00:50:50.300 it's an

00:50:51.880 excellent

00:50:52.220 question

00:50:52.800 and you

00:50:54.120 know

00:50:54.320 one's mind

00:50:55.060 travels

00:50:55.920 backwards

00:50:56.260 and forwards

00:50:56.760 over

00:50:57.100 various

00:50:58.020 you know

00:50:58.620 the famous

00:50:59.060 George Orwell

00:50:59.840 you know

00:51:00.500 vicar on the

00:51:01.520 bicycle

00:51:01.900 and the warm

00:51:02.520 beer and the

00:51:03.140 cricket

00:51:03.400 and there's

00:51:05.060 an element

00:51:05.440 of that

00:51:05.940 and I think

00:51:07.100 I'll start

00:51:08.420 off with

00:51:08.780 as you say

00:51:09.240 given my

00:51:09.700 family background

00:51:10.380 I think

00:51:11.120 growing up

00:51:12.340 in a very

00:51:12.740 traditional

00:51:13.320 English way

00:51:14.040 in a country

00:51:15.020 house sent

00:51:15.880 away to

00:51:16.260 school with

00:51:17.120 other English

00:51:17.820 boys but

00:51:19.280 being coming

00:51:20.980 from a Jewish

00:51:21.820 family at least

00:51:22.320 half Jewish

00:51:22.900 and realizing

00:51:24.880 quite early on

00:51:25.500 that I was

00:51:25.780 gay in a

00:51:26.400 world in

00:51:27.120 which you

00:51:27.560 know I

00:51:27.920 was interested

00:51:29.120 enough in

00:51:29.680 literature and

00:51:30.260 reading around

00:51:30.840 to know that

00:51:31.760 meant prison

00:51:32.560 and exile and

00:51:33.480 disgrace and

00:51:34.200 stigma and

00:51:34.760 shame so

00:51:36.620 it's almost as

00:51:37.820 if I adopted

00:51:38.480 overdid it I

00:51:39.940 mean I look at

00:51:40.440 myself psychologically

00:51:41.360 I'm a member

00:51:43.480 of the Garrick

00:51:44.160 Club I'm

00:51:44.580 actually wearing

00:51:45.000 his tie at

00:51:45.520 the moment

00:51:45.740 the MCC

00:51:46.580 the Beefsteak

00:51:47.440 the Athenaeum

00:51:48.560 the Saville

00:51:49.120 Club

00:51:49.460 I mean it's

00:51:50.720 unbelievable

00:51:51.280 the Oxford and

00:51:52.080 Cambridge Club

00:51:52.680 the Arts Club

00:51:53.800 the Chelsea

00:51:55.560 Arts Club

00:51:56.540 as well

00:51:56.920 it's just

00:51:57.260 showing off

00:51:57.700 you are the

00:52:01.040 liberal elite

00:52:01.520 it's more than

00:52:04.000 showing off

00:52:04.460 it's actually

00:52:05.060 revealing something

00:52:06.080 deeply tragic

00:52:07.120 this absolute

00:52:08.840 desperate need

00:52:10.580 to be accepted

00:52:11.900 and to feel

00:52:12.760 that the doors

00:52:13.880 of society

00:52:14.560 are open to

00:52:15.300 me

00:52:15.520 of course

00:52:16.320 they're open

00:52:16.720 to me

00:52:17.020 I mean I

00:52:17.440 don't know

00:52:17.780 why I keep

00:52:18.420 needing

00:52:18.780 but for some

00:52:20.440 reason I have

00:52:21.260 this sense

00:52:24.420 I mean I wrote

00:52:25.640 about it in

00:52:26.100 an autobiography

00:52:26.700 and the way I

00:52:27.200 put it was

00:52:28.040 that like a lot

00:52:30.020 of adolescence

00:52:30.940 but unfortunately

00:52:31.620 as an adult

00:52:32.620 I've still

00:52:34.040 taken it

00:52:34.600 I was pulled

00:52:35.860 apart by

00:52:37.380 this

00:52:37.980 this

00:52:39.280 this tension

00:52:40.260 this

00:52:40.720 these

00:52:41.440 contradictory

00:52:42.060 impulses

00:52:43.260 one

00:52:44.380 was to

00:52:45.860 stand alone

00:52:46.600 to be

00:52:47.400 you know

00:52:47.820 the Ibsen

00:52:48.880 hero

00:52:49.240 the stands

00:52:49.900 strongest

00:52:50.280 who stands

00:52:50.840 most alone

00:52:51.500 you know

00:52:51.920 that

00:52:52.140 that thing

00:52:53.620 of being

00:52:54.040 the individual

00:52:54.800 different

00:52:55.680 apart

00:52:56.540 but at the

00:52:58.140 same time

00:52:59.020 yearning

00:52:59.680 to belong

00:53:01.100 so to be

00:53:02.420 apart from

00:53:03.100 and to be

00:53:03.540 a part of

00:53:04.280 were my

00:53:05.340 two things

00:53:06.480 that pulled

00:53:06.960 pulled me

00:53:07.580 so I wanted

00:53:08.640 to look down

00:53:09.360 on people

00:53:09.920 who were there

00:53:10.320 they're playing

00:53:10.760 their rugby

00:53:11.240 and doing

00:53:12.500 their thinking

00:53:13.460 ordinary thoughts

00:53:14.440 being conventional

00:53:15.520 imagining a life

00:53:18.220 with mortgages

00:53:19.360 and owning

00:53:20.080 owning garden

00:53:21.440 hoses

00:53:21.840 and lawn

00:53:22.700 nose

00:53:23.020 and I wanted

00:53:24.640 to be apart

00:53:25.260 from that

00:53:25.760 but another

00:53:27.260 element of

00:53:28.240 being just so

00:53:28.940 wanted to be

00:53:29.660 embraced by the

00:53:30.400 world

00:53:30.660 and to be

00:53:31.900 to belong

00:53:32.620 and I

00:53:34.000 think that

00:53:34.600 is a

00:53:35.220 strangely

00:53:35.520 English

00:53:35.920 thing

00:53:36.320 or at least

00:53:36.820 a certain

00:53:37.180 kind of

00:53:37.620 Britain

00:53:37.840 has that

00:53:38.620 this need

00:53:39.180 to stand

00:53:40.240 apart

00:53:40.720 and I'm

00:53:41.740 not

00:53:41.980 I don't

00:53:42.580 belong to

00:53:42.980 any of that

00:53:43.400 nonsense

00:53:43.740 I don't

00:53:44.300 believe in

00:53:44.720 this

00:53:45.000 and I'm

00:53:45.520 different

00:53:45.940 and to

00:53:47.080 say

00:53:47.320 but also

00:53:48.180 to

00:53:48.460 join

00:53:50.400 but what

00:53:51.560 it is

00:53:51.880 to be

00:53:52.140 British

00:53:52.500 I mean

00:53:53.980 we used

00:53:55.260 to

00:53:55.520 I grew up

00:53:56.600 believing

00:53:56.920 that it

00:53:57.200 was fair

00:53:57.820 play

00:53:58.180 and I

00:54:00.340 think that

00:54:00.680 is still

00:54:01.100 a part

00:54:01.500 of

00:54:01.640 you know

00:54:02.020 British

00:54:03.340 and the

00:54:03.780 Anglo-Saxon

00:54:04.460 tradition

00:54:04.880 because the

00:54:05.260 Australians

00:54:05.700 call it

00:54:06.400 a fair

00:54:06.740 shake

00:54:07.220 you've got

00:54:07.800 to have

00:54:07.960 a fair

00:54:08.300 shake

00:54:08.740 you know

00:54:09.060 decent

00:54:09.560 you know

00:54:10.260 equity

00:54:10.640 in that

00:54:11.080 sense

00:54:11.340 not social

00:54:11.920 justice

00:54:12.300 warrior

00:54:12.600 equity

00:54:13.000 but just

00:54:14.440 you know

00:54:14.800 it's not

00:54:15.200 something's

00:54:15.800 not fair

00:54:16.360 and that's

00:54:16.820 as a

00:54:17.080 child

00:54:17.460 we all

00:54:18.120 know

00:54:18.320 children

00:54:18.720 scream

00:54:19.580 when things

00:54:20.320 aren't

00:54:20.560 fair

00:54:20.840 and we

00:54:21.560 are enraged

00:54:22.920 by injustice

00:54:23.560 and we

00:54:24.240 should be

00:54:24.620 we shouldn't

00:54:25.100 ever lose

00:54:25.580 that I'm

00:54:25.980 sure

00:54:26.240 and I

00:54:28.860 think

00:54:29.300 a certain

00:54:33.640 this is

00:54:36.240 impossible

00:54:36.580 to say

00:54:37.120 because it

00:54:38.420 sounds the

00:54:38.900 opposite

00:54:39.240 but a

00:54:39.760 certain

00:54:39.940 modesty

00:54:40.460 is important

00:54:41.180 a certain

00:54:42.320 sense that

00:54:43.100 one isn't

00:54:43.460 quite good

00:54:43.900 enough

00:54:44.260 and that

00:54:44.760 one should

00:54:45.180 be better

00:54:45.660 is an

00:54:47.180 important part

00:54:47.840 of being

00:54:48.120 British

00:54:48.440 and

00:54:48.940 disliking

00:54:50.000 showing off

00:54:50.620 and braggatism

00:54:51.400 and general

00:54:52.000 sort of

00:54:52.320 braggadocio

00:54:52.900 if you like

00:54:53.420 and that's

00:54:54.100 why we

00:54:54.360 find Trump

00:54:55.000 so incomprehensible

00:54:55.900 I mean

00:54:56.240 a lot

00:54:57.320 of what

00:54:57.520 he says

00:54:57.880 and what

00:54:58.100 he stands

00:54:58.520 for

00:54:58.700 we can

00:54:59.020 completely

00:54:59.440 understand

00:54:59.980 why people

00:55:00.540 vote for

00:55:01.420 him

00:55:01.600 but just

00:55:02.300 at a

00:55:02.600 simple

00:55:02.900 personal

00:55:03.360 human

00:55:03.680 level

00:55:03.980 the idea

00:55:04.540 that a

00:55:04.840 British

00:55:05.060 person

00:55:05.500 could ever

00:55:06.340 vote for

00:55:06.820 someone

00:55:07.120 who was

00:55:07.520 so full

00:55:08.000 of

00:55:08.140 themselves

00:55:08.540 it's

00:55:09.400 just

00:55:09.640 so

00:55:10.000 oh my

00:55:10.500 god

00:55:10.780 you

00:55:10.940 cannot

00:55:11.320 talk

00:55:11.700 like

00:55:11.920 you heard

00:55:12.700 him saying

00:55:13.100 he's so

00:55:13.500 good

00:55:13.720 at this

00:55:14.140 and he's

00:55:14.520 the best

00:55:14.940 at that

00:55:15.460 no one

00:55:16.280 would be

00:55:16.600 acceptable

00:55:17.080 in British

00:55:17.660 society

00:55:18.140 in a pub

00:55:18.860 if someone

00:55:19.180 said

00:55:19.340 I'm the

00:55:19.900 best

00:55:20.200 that ever

00:55:20.580 excuse me

00:55:23.960 in the same

00:55:24.840 way that we

00:55:25.300 couldn't have

00:55:25.720 a prime

00:55:26.000 minister

00:55:26.260 who said

00:55:26.760 let us

00:55:27.080 pray

00:55:27.400 or god

00:55:28.380 will

00:55:28.620 you know

00:55:29.020 you know

00:55:29.560 Tony Blair

00:55:30.080 is probably

00:55:30.400 the most

00:55:30.680 religious

00:55:30.980 prime minister

00:55:31.440 we've had

00:55:31.760 for a while

00:55:32.220 but we

00:55:34.260 just would

00:55:34.760 not accept

00:55:35.340 that

00:55:35.740 and there's

00:55:36.620 a fantastic

00:55:37.260 moment

00:55:37.540 here's what

00:55:38.560 it is

00:55:38.840 to be

00:55:39.080 British

00:55:39.460 Kipling

00:55:41.320 great

00:55:42.880 great writer

00:55:43.820 no accident

00:55:45.100 Nobel Prize

00:55:46.040 winner

00:55:46.280 obviously

00:55:46.960 unfortunately

00:55:47.560 associated

00:55:48.240 with Empire

00:55:49.280 and the Raj

00:55:49.900 in ways

00:55:50.580 that have

00:55:50.960 made him

00:55:51.660 a little bit

00:55:52.080 unacceptable

00:55:52.540 to some

00:55:53.060 people

00:55:53.380 but if

00:55:54.560 you read

00:55:54.940 him

00:55:55.120 you think

00:55:55.620 this is

00:55:56.100 a truly

00:55:56.780 great

00:55:57.140 writer

00:55:57.480 and

00:55:58.140 T.S.

00:55:59.020 Eliot

00:55:59.180 and many

00:55:59.620 others

00:56:00.000 were you

00:56:00.500 know

00:56:00.620 built up

00:56:01.700 his reputation

00:56:02.320 when it

00:56:02.680 had fallen

00:56:03.560 down a bit

00:56:04.420 there's a scene

00:56:04.980 in one of

00:56:05.360 his novels

00:56:06.240 a kind of

00:56:06.740 almost comic

00:56:07.360 novel of

00:56:07.800 school days

00:56:08.260 called Storky

00:56:08.960 and Co

00:56:09.400 hugely popular

00:56:10.860 and it was

00:56:12.040 kind of based

00:56:12.620 on his own

00:56:13.180 childhood

00:56:13.780 he represents

00:56:14.960 himself as a

00:56:15.760 character called

00:56:16.220 Beatle

00:56:16.660 he's very

00:56:17.120 short-sighted

00:56:18.220 because Kipling

00:56:18.980 was almost

00:56:19.400 blind

00:56:19.760 there's a

00:56:22.280 moment when

00:56:22.740 a politician

00:56:23.560 comes

00:56:24.060 to the

00:56:25.500 school

00:56:25.780 and we

00:56:26.720 know that

00:56:27.160 what happens

00:56:27.640 to Storky

00:56:28.260 and his

00:56:28.760 friends

00:56:29.220 they're

00:56:29.680 wonderfully

00:56:30.180 naughty

00:56:33.180 children

00:56:33.700 I mean

00:56:34.220 they're very

00:56:34.540 disrespectful

00:56:35.180 they're absolute

00:56:36.780 renegades

00:56:37.420 as children

00:56:38.700 Storky

00:56:39.180 and Co

00:56:39.480 at their

00:56:39.800 school

00:56:40.080 but we

00:56:40.680 know that

00:56:41.060 they then

00:56:41.420 joined the

00:56:41.780 army

00:56:41.960 and that

00:56:42.320 two of

00:56:43.800 them are

00:56:44.020 killed

00:56:44.340 and that

00:56:44.880 they're

00:56:45.740 kind of

00:56:46.900 soldiers

00:56:47.640 and that

00:56:49.980 they probably

00:56:51.240 are

00:56:51.960 patriotic

00:56:53.060 they believe

00:56:54.220 in their

00:56:55.120 country

00:56:55.500 and therefore

00:56:56.180 I suppose

00:56:56.740 empire

00:56:57.260 anyway

00:56:58.820 a politician

00:56:59.480 comes

00:57:00.080 and speaks

00:57:01.420 to them

00:57:01.840 at speech

00:57:02.520 day as they

00:57:03.100 do at these

00:57:03.600 schools

00:57:03.900 and he

00:57:05.360 points to

00:57:05.880 the flag

00:57:06.440 and says

00:57:06.860 the flag

00:57:07.400 my boys

00:57:08.040 and Storky

00:57:09.840 and his

00:57:10.180 friends

00:57:10.600 start to

00:57:11.820 hiss

00:57:12.300 they hiss

00:57:14.220 him down

00:57:14.780 they cannot

00:57:15.620 bear

00:57:16.380 that someone

00:57:17.460 should

00:57:17.700 talk

00:57:18.420 in that

00:57:19.540 way

00:57:19.860 sentimental

00:57:20.520 way

00:57:21.040 about

00:57:21.340 country

00:57:21.860 it's a

00:57:22.520 private

00:57:22.880 thing

00:57:23.260 you may

00:57:24.580 have

00:57:24.840 feelings

00:57:25.260 about

00:57:25.600 your

00:57:25.800 country

00:57:26.220 you may

00:57:27.040 have

00:57:27.320 pride

00:57:28.000 and

00:57:28.320 something

00:57:29.360 but for

00:57:30.060 someone

00:57:31.500 to talk

00:57:32.260 about it

00:57:32.800 is just

00:57:34.040 bad taste

00:57:35.140 and that

00:57:36.920 sense of

00:57:37.400 English

00:57:37.640 bad taste

00:57:38.240 that you

00:57:38.580 don't

00:57:39.180 parade

00:57:39.920 such

00:57:41.240 feelings

00:57:41.800 like

00:57:42.940 patriotism

00:57:43.640 and to

00:57:44.300 this day

00:57:44.780 I think

00:57:45.100 if a

00:57:45.340 politician

00:57:45.680 went on

00:57:46.100 about the

00:57:46.440 glory

00:57:46.680 of the

00:57:46.940 country

00:57:47.280 like

00:57:47.980 when

00:57:48.240 Michael

00:57:48.660 Patillo

00:57:48.960 in a

00:57:49.180 very

00:57:49.320 short

00:57:49.580 period

00:57:49.840 when he

00:57:50.120 was

00:57:50.240 defence

00:57:50.580 secretary

00:57:50.900 did that

00:57:51.780 wrapped himself

00:57:52.500 in the

00:57:52.860 flag

00:57:53.960 and to

00:57:54.840 people

00:57:55.140 of right

00:57:55.600 and left

00:57:56.000 it was

00:57:56.300 just

00:57:56.660 distasteful

00:57:57.720 and I

00:57:58.660 think

00:57:58.980 that is

00:58:00.000 a problem

00:58:00.600 for the

00:58:00.940 British

00:58:01.160 because

00:58:01.620 whatever

00:58:02.400 the British

00:58:02.780 values

00:58:03.520 may be

00:58:04.500 they are

00:58:05.340 under threat

00:58:06.060 as they

00:58:07.340 are

00:58:07.540 western values

00:58:08.300 generally

00:58:08.760 are under

00:58:09.240 threat

00:58:09.620 deeply

00:58:10.240 under threat

00:58:10.960 and

00:58:12.020 to defend

00:58:13.640 them

00:58:13.960 means

00:58:14.560 to speak

00:58:15.820 in a

00:58:16.100 very

00:58:16.300 un-British

00:58:16.820 way

00:58:17.140 and

00:58:18.220 that

00:58:18.940 makes

00:58:19.180 us

00:58:19.340 uncomfortable

00:58:19.880 in America

00:58:21.720 they don't

00:58:22.100 have that

00:58:22.400 problem

00:58:22.680 they talk

00:58:23.380 about

00:58:23.600 freedom

00:58:23.960 and

00:58:24.200 America

00:58:24.640 and the

00:58:25.480 flag

00:58:25.920 and they're

00:58:26.480 very happy

00:58:27.440 to do it

00:58:28.060 but we

00:58:29.300 find that

00:58:29.700 fairly

00:58:29.940 preposterous

00:58:30.620 but maybe

00:58:32.340 it's time

00:58:33.380 for me to

00:58:34.060 change

00:58:34.440 and to

00:58:34.700 be less

00:58:35.040 British

00:58:35.380 and to

00:58:36.300 wave

00:58:36.620 the flag

00:58:37.440 in

00:58:38.680 not in

00:58:39.660 terms of

00:58:40.240 empire

00:58:40.800 and past

00:58:41.720 greatness

00:58:42.200 and silly

00:58:43.760 things

00:58:43.960 but in

00:58:44.300 terms of

00:58:44.700 values

00:58:45.360 which include

00:58:47.200 free speech

00:58:47.780 which include

00:58:48.700 respect and

00:58:51.140 affection

00:58:51.960 for the

00:58:52.420 underdog

00:58:53.000 self-mockery

00:58:54.900 and an

00:58:56.420 ability

00:58:56.840 to

00:58:58.020 consider

00:59:00.820 other people

00:59:01.440 from inside

00:59:02.180 if you can

00:59:02.940 I suppose

00:59:03.700 Stephen

00:59:04.900 it's been

00:59:06.360 I don't know

00:59:06.880 if that helps

00:59:07.420 no it don't

00:59:08.160 it's a wonderful

00:59:09.460 way to finish

00:59:10.280 the interview

00:59:10.700 the final

00:59:11.320 question is

00:59:11.800 always the

00:59:12.140 same

00:59:12.340 what's the

00:59:13.100 one thing

00:59:13.560 we're not

00:59:13.860 talking about

00:59:14.480 that we

00:59:14.840 really should

00:59:15.300 be

00:59:15.540 ah

00:59:16.040 well

00:59:17.080 I mean

00:59:18.820 that's really

00:59:19.760 it's almost

00:59:20.200 like being in

00:59:20.780 the cab

00:59:21.220 saying go on

00:59:21.800 you're free

00:59:22.080 to say

00:59:22.360 absolutely

00:59:22.780 what haven't

00:59:23.780 you spoken

00:59:24.260 about

00:59:24.680 I suppose

00:59:28.340 I would

00:59:28.800 say

00:59:29.320 and it's

00:59:32.020 special

00:59:32.640 pleading

00:59:33.060 to some

00:59:33.700 extent

00:59:34.100 art

00:59:36.640 literature

00:59:37.580 creativity

00:59:38.500 what

00:59:39.440 people

00:59:40.140 say

00:59:40.820 create

00:59:43.500 in

00:59:44.140 music

00:59:45.140 it can be

00:59:45.740 lyrics of

00:59:46.340 songs

00:59:46.660 it can be

00:59:47.080 anything

00:59:47.420 that the

00:59:48.120 way we

00:59:48.560 speak to

00:59:49.040 each other

00:59:49.420 the way

00:59:49.840 we uncover

00:59:50.540 the truth

00:59:51.080 about who

00:59:51.540 we are

00:59:51.960 about the

00:59:52.640 fact that

00:59:52.980 we die

00:59:53.540 we live

00:59:54.220 that there's

00:59:54.980 pain and

00:59:55.600 there's

00:59:55.820 betrayal

00:59:56.260 and there's

00:59:56.800 dishonor

00:59:57.340 and there's

00:59:57.780 honor

00:59:58.080 all these

00:59:59.020 difficult things

01:00:00.000 are very hard

01:00:01.620 to talk about

01:00:02.380 in an abstract

01:00:05.300 way

01:00:05.720 but art

01:00:07.440 reifies and

01:00:08.600 embodies these

01:00:09.500 things through

01:00:10.100 people and

01:00:10.760 through ideas

01:00:11.900 or images

01:00:12.440 and remind us

01:00:14.760 that we die

01:00:16.360 which is very

01:00:17.520 important

01:00:17.980 so I

01:00:18.640 so I

01:00:18.660 suppose

01:00:19.020 art

01:00:20.160 probably

01:00:21.760 should come

01:00:22.600 into your

01:00:23.040 conversation

01:00:23.600 more

01:00:23.940 and it's

01:00:25.660 difficult

01:00:26.140 because it

01:00:26.520 sounds

01:00:26.840 elitist

01:00:27.660 but it's

01:00:29.400 important

01:00:29.860 art and

01:00:30.420 literature

01:00:30.740 and popular

01:00:31.420 culture

01:00:31.800 if you like

01:00:32.260 just

01:00:32.480 the

01:00:33.000 you know

01:00:33.600 the

01:00:33.800 discourse

01:00:34.140 the fact

01:00:34.560 that the

01:00:34.860 discourse

01:00:35.160 is so

01:00:35.660 constipated

01:00:36.640 by self

01:00:37.520 consciousness

01:00:37.980 and inability

01:00:38.980 to express

01:00:39.860 perhaps

01:00:40.820 head on over

01:00:42.320 to Substack

01:00:42.980 where we'll

01:00:43.440 carry on the

01:00:43.980 conversation

01:00:44.480 with Stephen

01:00:45.060 I'd be

01:00:47.480 fascinated to

01:00:48.180 have Stephen's

01:00:48.740 take on

01:00:49.140 Jordan Peterson

01:00:49.960 with him who

01:00:50.800 took part in

01:00:51.540 the 2018

01:00:52.200 Monk debate

TRIGGERnometry - December 18, 2024

The Rise of the Right is the Left's Fault - Stephen Fry

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