The Truth About Free Speech： TRIGGERnometry Highlights
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Summary
Free speech has been ebbing away on college campuses for many years now, and colleges seem increasingly able to take a joke literally. Kevin Kesson is a comedian who was recently invited to perform at a college in London, but the group that invited him asked him to sign a contract promising not to engage in racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, homophobia or anti-religion. What was he supposed to joke about?
Transcript
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well free speech has been ebbing away on college campuses of course for many years now colleges
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seem increasingly able to take a joke literally constant kissin is a comedian he's the host of
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the youtube show triggernometry he was recently invited to perform at a college in london but
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the group that invited him asked that he sign a contract promising not to engage in any way in
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quote, racism, sexism, classism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia,
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Islamophobia, anti-religion or anti-atheism. That's a long list. What was he supposed to joke
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about? Well, we've asked him to come on tonight to tell us. Mr. Kesson, thank you very much for
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coming on. Is that real? Did you make up that list? Is this a comedy bet? No, it's not. It's
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been very good for my comedy. But actually, if you go further into the contract, they also demanded
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And as you know, I was born in the Soviet Union,
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and getting this contract made me feel right at home.
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No one would suggest that every university and college is like this.
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But I think the reason that I made a stand on this issue is I don't want it to get worse.
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But it's so striking that this is being applied to comedians, these standards are being applied to all of us.
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We're all terrified. All of us live in fear and freedom really is evaporating.
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But comedians used to be the one group that by definition was allowed to be transgressive because that's the whole point of comedy, saying the thing everyone else is afraid to say.
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Is it ominous? Do you think that comedians aren't even allowed to practice?
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I think so. I think so. We're the canary in the coal mine. And I think this is why it's gone viral.
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I think it's nothing to do with comedy. This story, actually, the reason that people all around the world are tuning in and watching the video we recorded of of this is because it's not about comedy.
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It's about ordinary people up and down the country and here in Britain and in America feeling like they can't say what they think.
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I've had so many messages from people messaging me, all kinds of people, sometimes women going, you know what, I don't agree with radical feminism.
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And if I say that in the workplace tomorrow, I won't have a job anymore.
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So what it's coming to is the fact that everybody feels like we're we're all kind of under arrest.
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We are all all everything we say can and will be used against us in the court of public opinion.
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And they're coming for the comedians first because we're we're the ones that, as you say, are allowed to transgress.
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but everybody else feels it and that's why the story's got the resonance that it has
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it's not this is not sustainable this moment thank kevin constant thank you very much god
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bless you for what you're doing i appreciate it thanks for having me tucker
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i think freedom of speech is absolute and there should be no restrictions on it whatsoever
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um no hate speech laws i want to scrap all of those no public order legislation that
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target speech. No libel laws. I think there should be no restrictions whatsoever. And the best
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response to speech that is wrong or dangerous or racist or horrible is always more speech,
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never censorship, never laws, never putting someone in prison. So I'm a free speech absolutist
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because I think freedom of speech should be completely unfettered and let loose on the world.
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So you think, for instance, it should be acceptable for somebody, for instance, an imam to be able to go up on a street corner, stand on a pallet and say homosexuals should be murdered, for instance, for their...
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Yes. Yes. And I actually have defended imams who have horrible views about homosexuality or women or whatever else it might be, which a lot of free speech activists, they actually run out of steam when it comes to defending extreme Islamists.
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Right, and they suddenly think, oh, I can't do that.
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But I think, obviously, there is such a thing as incitement to violence,
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and that's not a free speech issue from the point of view that
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if you are inciting violence, you are conspiring in the commission of a crime.
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and then you are part of a criminal conspiracy of some description.
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But I think even when it comes to incitement to violence,
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we have to be really specific because that has become a very misused term.
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I was really struck that the Metropolitan Police this week or last week, they were talking about drill videos on YouTube.
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Lots of young black kids listen to it in London and elsewhere.
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Very violent music kind of praises gangs and stabbing attacks and guns and so on.
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It's like the new gangster rap scare, but in Britain instead of the US.
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And the police made this incredibly interesting statement where they said,
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we're taking down hundreds of these videos because we think they're dangerous. So I think
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that was an act of police censorship. And they said, even if there is no obvious act of violence
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that has been incited by these videos, we can still say that these videos incite violence.
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I thought that was really interesting because incitement to violence now means pretty much
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anything you want it to mean. It basically just means that you really hate this form of speech,
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whether it's a drill video, whether it's Jermaine Greer going to Cardiff University and arguing that trans people aren't real women,
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that's also described as incitement to violence.
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Pretty much any form of speech can now be described as incitement to violence.
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So even there, I think we have to be very specific.
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And I would like to see evidence that the speech in question directly contributed to an act of violence
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before I would be willing to sanction any form of punishment for that speech.
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but what's interesting about that is is that that has all that argument has always been with us if
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you think about the jamie bulger killings i mean 20 odd years ago that was blamed on computer video
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games if you think about the um the school students in boulder colorado they blamed it
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on marilyn manson yeah do you think you can ever attribute um you know an act of violence to a
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particular type of thought or oh yeah I think you can I think you know the guy Mark David Chapman
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who shot John Lennon was inspired to do so by J.D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye he really
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genuinely thought that Catcher in the Rye was giving him a message to kill John Lennon
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so you could argue that Catcher in the Rye caused the death of John Lennon or Charles Manson and his
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crazy family were inspired to kill all those people in Los Angeles by the White Album I mean
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they really genuinely believed deep in their heart that the white album by the beatles contained all
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these messages about race wars and the piggies in the capitalist society who needed to be slaughtered
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and so on they really believe that and of course you know countless numbers of people have killed
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because they read something in the bible or they believe something in the quran so it's unquestionable
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that ideas can encourage people to commit violent acts it's unquestionable that some people will
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look at a piece of art or read a book or hear a song and think to themselves, this work of art is
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telling me to do something really bad. But if you were to organize society on the basis that that
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might happen, then you are basically creating a lunatic asylum in which all of us are punished
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on the basis that one or two crazy people might do something stupid after reading Catcher in the
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Rye or listening to the White Album. And that would be a deeply unpleasant society because
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there's no end of cultural products or artistic things that could be said to inspire violence or
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hatefulness in one form or another so i but my issue with media effects theory which is this
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idea that video nasties cause mass killings or video games made the james bulger murder happen
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or in the modern version because the left the effects theory used to be very prominent on the
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right among kind of old christian women and merry white house types and very conservative um stiff
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people now it's kind of shifted to the left and it's very much more often the left now that argues
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about media effects theory and will say that lads mags if they're in shop uh on shop shelves will
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cause men to become rapacious and anti-women or violence against women in films will cause men
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to commit violence against women in real life so the left has utterly embraced the media effects
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theory. My problem with the media effects theory is that it presents all people as almost like
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animals who just look at something and then think I must act on that. And that is a very demeaning
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view of the vast majority of human beings who actually are perfectly capable of thinking for
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themselves and perfectly capable of making a decision about what they should do with their
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lives. So I would be very wary of any justification of censorship that was made on the basis that
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and then immediately feel that we have to commit a violent act on the back of it.
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I think their methods of peaceful direct action
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and, where appropriate, civil disobedience against unjust laws
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is the model by which all successful movements for social change have won through.
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But I'm curious about, there will have been other people
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who would have been watching Martin Luther King marching and seeing those movements
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who would not have had the courage or whatever it is that's driven you
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to risk your life and limb essentially for what you believe in what do you think it was that made
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you prepared to do that to be willing to risk your life essentially for for that well you're right i
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mean my school friends uh also saw the same images but didn't act um i guess i've just got quite a
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strong sense of right and wrong um perhaps an overdeveloped conscience um i don't like to see
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other people suffering you know I love freedom equality justice I love other people I put myself
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in their shoes if it was me who was being persecuted or unjustly treated I would want
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someone to help me so when I see others suffering I think well if I want others to help me in that
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situation then surely I have some responsibility to do something to try and help them and were you
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always like that were you like that as a kid if you saw something some injustice happening as a
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10 year old would you try to step in or defend people who can yeah yeah and I don't know exactly
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where it came from I suppose it's partly from my very strict quite fundamentalist Christian
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upbringing my parents instilled me in a very strong sense of you know follow your own conscience
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don't just go along with the mob think for yourself stand up for what is right even if
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it's unpopular. And, you know, from a religious point of view, be a good Samaritan. You know,
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don't walk by another side of the street when someone is suffering. So I guess that was
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part of the fact that impelled me to take up these human rights causes.
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I do not believe that I have stopped changing my mind about things. And so I think it's
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um you know the ability to hear other opinions um can mean that i might change my mind and uh or
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improve the way i argue or just get a new perspective on the world so even from an
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entirely personal point of view i think it's a peculiar idea to have in your head that you know
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you at any age say this is what i think and that's it i mean never will it ever change i mean
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obviously as you get older you're more accustomed to having developed and thought back right this
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But, I mean, nonetheless, we'll want to be open all the time.
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so you need to be able to take account of things that change.
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because this idea that you sort of say, right, this is what I think,
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It would mean that you'd read a book and nothing would occur.
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I mean, you know, you'd never be able to watch a podcast
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and your brain work because you'd say no no no no this is what I think and nothing else will you
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know so for me it's because we all don't we um want to access new ideas to stimulate ourselves
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to kind of test out and also because by the way there's a lot of problems in the world that need
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solving and we need as many people kind of addressing them as possible and you need to be
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open-minded to consider that I think as well that the intellectual life by the way is exciting and
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And I think that, you know, there's nothing more brilliant than when you read a novel or you read an...
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I've just read Andrew O'Hagan's essay on Grenfell in the London Review of Books.
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It's like something like 30,000, it might even be longer, 30,000 words, but it's like a little book.
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I mean, yes, I learned everything. It's the most perfect essay.
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It makes you think, it's shocking, it's moving, it reveals new information.
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and ideas are important because society cannot move on
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is that people who are brighter than us taking ideas from 2,000 years ago
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people who are not as bright as us but have got an absolutely sharp wit
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which is why, you know, identity politics is one of the great tyrannies of our time.
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But that's not to say that you don't want to have any knowledge
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of somebody's personal experience created by their identity,
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because that can give you a great insight as well.
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So, of course, the frustration of this kind of stratified,
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static, dead intellectual climate that we live in.
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We talk to people on the right, we talk to people on the left,
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it's the fact that we talk about free speech a lot.
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I think that's the number one issue that makes you a fascist.
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And I think, you know, we talk about the tone of the debate on the hard left
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is some of these terms like fascist, racist and stuff
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is that, you know, they seem to think that they're like,
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you know in Karate Kid, the crane kick, you know.
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They seem to think that that's always going to be the conversation ender.
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Problem is, is that you keep rolling it out every single day on Twitter,
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you know, every single day online for people that patently aren't.
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It's such an awful thing to be, like a genuine biological racist,
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which is probably the worst sort of view that you could hold.
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So once people see that applied to people that patently aren't,
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And that's what I think that they're running up against now.
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And in a way, and this is a problem for the left,
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I mean, it is very much the boy who cried wolf, isn't it?
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and now people are able to sort of shrug them off
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because they're now looking at it in a litany of things
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where people have, you know, again, it's this thing hyperbole.
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People have tried to get an idea across the line
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with emotion and guilt trips rather than with reason.
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And it's a good example of what you're talking about
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because, like, every time Francis calls Tommy Robinson
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far right on the show, we get a bunch of people going,
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he's not far right, he's just, you know, a normal guy.
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Right, and I think the reason people now think that way
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that no one really knows what a racist is anymore.
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and this is one of the problems in public life,
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is, like, do you remember when people get accused of being racist?
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but when people say that things are patently fucking racist, right,
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like, you know, Mel Gibson, I mean, those phone calls,
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if you've never, I mean, they're just mind-blowing, right?
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Me? You ask anyone in the tiny community of my wife, right, and they'll tell you I'm a lovely bloke.
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You know, a person that possibly depends on me being in work, weirdly, they will support, you know, my character.
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And one of the really unfortunate things that was going on, particularly in the U.S., was that the debate about freedom of speech just became a left-right culture war.
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And if you were in favour of freedom of speech, it's because you wanted to basically shout obscenities among minorities,
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and that the left were entirely just these kind of snowflakes who had no idea what free speech was.
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So we got together this series of speakers who we felt really excelled at kind of putting the kind of liberal to libertarian,
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So along with our own Brendan O'Neill, who spoke at a couple of events, Stephen Pinker from Harvard spoke,
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a guy called Camille Foster, spoken on our identity politics panel, Mark Lilla, a few others.
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And so the whole aim of it really was to try and be upfront in sort of tackling this problem of censorship,
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of protests against speakers, people dislike identity politics, etc.
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But to do it in such a way that drew out what we think is some of the more important arguments for it,
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which I think are classically liberal and even progressive,
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which at that particular time seemed to be almost entirely absent from the debate, it felt like.
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I mean, why is it, do you think, that the right wing, you know,
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the moment you talk about freedom of speech, everybody goes,
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And a lot of people would say that there's no problem with freedom of speech,
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particularly in this country, when you compare it with, I don't know,
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Why do you think people associate freedom of speech with the right wing?
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I think the first thing is to say that it feels like, broadly speaking,
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the kind of censorship on a kind of state level as well as the sort of censorship you see on a
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university campus just because of the way things are at the moment it tends to be people either on
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a campus could just be anyone who's kind of you know to the to the right of center effectively
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finding themselves being censored because of the political culture on most university campuses
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and then I think broadly speaking I think people think of censorship ultimately as something which
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is reserved for far-right nutcases and racists you know and that is there's there's some truth in
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that. But nevertheless, I think the other aspect to it is there has been this profound kind of
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confusion as to first of all, the fact that if you censor anyone in any circumstance, that there
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is a point in which that will be used against people you happen to agree with. And I think
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we're seeing that play out in relation to some kind of old feminist finding themselves on the
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receiving end of censorship, etc. But the other thing I think is the kind of the sort of historical
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illiteracy of it, really, it doesn't really take much for a political culture to change. And if you
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kind of create the means through which what are deemed to be extreme views can be snuffed out
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either by the state or by you know by campaigns or by university administrations or whatever
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it won't be long until those same tools are used against you and I think what's kind of interesting
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about kind of even characters on the kind of US alt-right or at least alt-light is they're
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increasingly kind of getting people shut down you know James Gunn this guy who was directing the
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Guardians of the Galaxy series effectively a bunch of kind of alt-light journalists dug up his old
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tweets and got him sacked because this dynamic say on social media where things you might have
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said jokes you might have made in the past that were offensive can be used to effectively get
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you sacked that cudgel can be swung by the other side just as easily so i think it's it tends to
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be it does i think it's a combination of where the political culture is at the moment but also
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unfortunately just an incredible kind of short sightedness on behalf of a lot of left wingers
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these days it feels like that's what i always say on that issue is like once you invent this weapon
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And I don't agree with it being used in either direction.
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they posted at three o'clock in the morning or whatever,
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That becomes the way that war, the culture was waged.
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that that's going on both sides now you know if you kind of compare the roseanne situation in the
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us where she obviously tweets this kind of pretty racist stuff effectively um and then instantly
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there's this very concerted effort to get a sack you saw the flip side of that with the james gun
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thing now we could argue who are those two people we find more amiable who we might agree with more
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and i'm sure where all of us would stand on that to be honest but nevertheless it's quite clear
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that as soon as you create this dynamic it will be exploited by the other side and it was i think
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the most um uh irritating thing about all of this is the fact that it's a lot often people who claim
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to be very radical who claim to be um about kind of really challenging the consensus etc who are
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very keen on censorship which to me is insane if you go about branding everyone you just like an
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extremist and insisting they be shut down then if you are someone who's trying to further radical
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ideas that's something which is an incredible threat to yourself and i think what it actually
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shows is that vast sections of the left today even though they like to pose as very radical
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I think the fact that they're so comfortable with censorship
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speaks to the fact that deep down, whether they realise it or not,
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they're not actually saying very much that's actually that challenging
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More often than not, they seem to be on the side of people
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So I think it's quite revealing on that level as well, to some extent.
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And do you think students have become more censorious?
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It's a tricky one, because the last thing I want to do
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is kind of smear all students, and I think this kind of...
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Where there was always other people in the room
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Could be people within a university administration
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who would say, look, we've invited this speaker,
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but you can't just on the basis of a small group of you
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because there are other people who want to hear this perspective,
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You know, university administrations would previously, you know,
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consider free speech to be a kind of guiding value
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You know, even up until about 10, 15 years ago,
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there would always be these arguments and these battles,
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but the extent to which these small groups of campaigners could succeed
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because there were at least enough people willing to stick up for freedom of speech.
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I think the big problem is that a lot of these student protesters,
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these kind of intense identitarians, people who are really thin-skinned,
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they've been given the moral authority in these situations.
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People even are really concerned about disagreeing with them
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because they know the abuse that could be hurled at them, etc.
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So there's an element, I think, of cowardice on behalf of a lot of university administrations, say.
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And I think in relation to students more broadly,
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I think there's a very strong conformist climate, which makes them more likely to either just keep their mouth shut or just kind of leave them to it.
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So I think that whilst these people have always kind of existed, I think the big change now is, unfortunately, there's just so little pushback against them.
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And I think that has allowed them to kind of chalk up more wins insofar as censoring people, but also for their ideas to become more and more strange and more and more extreme because there's no one really in the room to kind of temper and challenge them.
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So what you're saying really is not that students have become more censorious, it's that the silent majority has become increasingly more silent.
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I think so. I mean, you do start to see those things changing.
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I mean, because a lot of the work that we've been doing, particularly in the UK, has been directly with students.
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We've run kind of tours of universities, working with students to set up debates before.
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We've worked with them on developing our university rankings, which we've done over the last four years, which looks at free speech policies, etc.
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and there is a growing number of them of left right and neither who are increasingly appalled
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by this and they kind of recognize that a lot of this really holds them in contempt in particular
00:25:53.560
because if you're going around saying that we can't have this speaker on campus because it will hurt
00:25:57.280
you it will it will effectively either hurt you psychologically or you might be stupid enough to
00:26:02.700
be won over by it people are really reacting to that in a kind of visceral way and I also think
00:26:06.760
because of the fact that the bar for censorship on campus has been getting lower and lower I mean
00:26:11.000
up until about 10 years ago it was really only about kind of far right nutcases that this debate
00:26:15.720
was had out but you know as of a few years ago the stories you're seeing in the newspaper is
00:26:19.420
Birmingham University banning sombreros and I think this has created a kind of visual kickback
00:26:23.860
because it's cultural appropriation because it's cultural appropriation let's play this
00:26:26.920
this oppression bingo yeah what are some other examples of things that have happened I'm trying
00:26:31.820
to think so there's there's a lot around fancy dress which is quite interesting also cultural
00:26:35.180
appropriation it's a strange mix of cultural appropriation cultural insensitivity I guess
00:26:39.280
telling people they can't dress up as gangsters
00:26:52.780
what's interesting about a lot of these calls to censorship
00:26:55.140
I don't know who they've got in mind when they say that
00:26:57.900
the thing about when people are obsessed with this cultural appropriation issue
00:27:04.760
they're suggesting this will be offensive to XYZ group
00:27:07.960
i think it's the thing that really makes um not so much laugh but worry i guess is the fact that
00:27:12.980
you've even had it seems like so many kind of people in student unions who obviously do the
00:27:17.480
lion's share of this kind of censorship um on campus they almost have so little self-awareness
00:27:22.080
that you have ridiculous situations like no gangster costumes or things that we've been
00:27:25.580
saying seeing recently over the last couple of years which is free speech societies for instance
00:27:29.800
being blocked from being set up and i think my favorite example was a couple of years ago at
00:27:33.440
university of um oxford where a bunch of students got together in response to the kind of censorious
00:27:38.300
climate on campus and wanted to start a free speech magazine called no offense yeah and it
00:27:43.160
was banned from the freshers fair and reported to the police and i think that's just i think goes
00:27:48.960
to show the fact that so much that we see on campus it's so ridiculous yeah it's often tempting
00:27:53.120
i think whether you're a student there or actually just looking on to think why does it matter but i
00:27:56.520
think actually it speaks to how unchecked a lot of this has gone because we're not even talking
00:28:00.480
about things that anyone with a modicum of common sense
00:28:08.400
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