TRIGGERnometry - The Truth about the Crusades

00:00:00.980 Crusading changes across time. It's not just a fixed civilizational war between X religion and Y religion.

00:00:08.840 At every point, this ought to have failed, but it doesn't. And so it looks a lot like a miracle.

00:00:14.440 Somehow we've got from, hey, let's have this movement where you go and attack enemies of Christ,

00:00:20.640 to, yay, let's go and destroy the biggest city in Christendom.

00:00:24.400 There's poetic justice in the fact that eventually this thing just, like, ends up in Christian-on-Christian violence.

00:00:30.660 This isn't a very triumphalist, heroic story, is it, Dan?

00:00:34.040 Did I say it was?

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00:01:06.660 Dan Jones, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:08.500 Thanks for having me.

00:01:09.080 You are obviously an incredibly famous and successful historian,

00:01:12.200 and we wanted to bring you on to talk about one of the things you're an absolute X-bomb, which is the Crusades.

00:01:17.160 However, while we were sitting here, the cameras weren't rolling,

00:01:20.020 we were just having a drink and making small talk.

00:01:22.040 We actually discovered that you have some very interesting thoughts about the modern world,

00:01:26.300 which will, so we'll park the Crusades for one second, if we even ever get to them, frankly.

00:01:30.680 And what we were talking about was a mutual friend of ours who's lived a long life,

00:01:36.260 and we were talking about the fact that in that time, you said a revolution had happened,

00:01:41.380 which is akin most of all throughout history to the Reformation.

00:01:45.700 What are you talking about?

00:01:46.820 Well, what I meant was that I, the context was that I believe we lived through a revolution

00:01:56.800 that will end up looking as significant in terms of human development as the industrial,

00:02:04.220 certainly the Industrial Revolution, maybe more significant than the Industrial Revolution,

00:02:08.340 and possibly even the Agricultural Revolution.

00:02:10.580 The first part of it, or the most obvious part of it, that's really affecting the way the world operates today

00:02:19.460 in lots of ways, politically, militarily, culturally, and so on, is a communications revolution.

00:02:26.820 And when I think about communications revolutions driving big periods of social and political,

00:02:32.840 geopolitical and geostrategic change, I always think about the elemental story of the Reformation, right?

00:02:40.580 It begins with the printing press.

00:02:43.520 You know, there can be no Reformation without a printing press.

00:02:46.700 The printing press enables a number of different things to happen.

00:02:49.900 On the one hand, the sort of the mechanics of the beginning of the Reformation are

00:02:53.320 the Catholic Church in the 15th century starts printing indulgences,

00:02:58.600 so mass-producing chits to get you through heaven fast for sale in an obviously corrupt way

00:03:05.460 that would be impossible without the printing press.

00:03:07.220 And the second thing that happens with the printing press in the 1450s onwards

00:03:11.320 is it just becomes, you know, there's an exponential increase in the amount of stuff you can publish,

00:03:18.960 the access to publishing, the speed with which ideas spread,

00:03:23.860 the speed with which people, Martin Luther being the most obvious, can become famous,

00:03:28.340 can become what we now think of as thought leaders.

00:03:30.560 And that, now obviously it's on a different scale to what we're experiencing in the modern world,

00:03:36.060 but the sort of principles are basically the same.

00:03:39.060 And people start piling in with all sorts of radical opinions

00:03:45.980 that start to drive to like the basic building blocks of how society,

00:03:50.960 certainly in the West, operates.

00:03:52.880 And that, you know, over the course of a couple of thought generations

00:03:58.420 ends up with the world really polarizing, first culturally and then politically.

00:04:06.180 And I think that, you know, we've seen something analogous.

00:04:10.540 History never repeats itself, but it does work in analogy.

00:04:16.260 And I think we've seen something analogous in our own lifetimes.

00:04:18.900 It's not the only feature of what we're seeing going on at the moment,

00:04:22.560 but that was sort of what I was getting at.

00:04:24.700 And then the context of our conversation, which you referenced,

00:04:29.720 we were talking about a mutual friend of ours,

00:04:32.980 was that the way that people,

00:04:36.760 the traditions, modes of debate, discussion,

00:04:43.300 like intellectual engagement and intercourse have changed over our life.

00:04:49.300 We're about the same age, but over our lifetimes as well.

00:04:52.120 So I find that sort of thing fascinating.

00:04:54.060 And in some ways, for me, that's like,

00:04:57.180 the point of studying history is not to find modern parallels

00:05:02.120 and to say, hey, X thing is just a version of Y thing.

00:05:05.400 But that's one of the sort of the fringe benefits of studying history

00:05:08.880 or one of the things that I think is...

00:05:10.200 Well, you say that, and not that I'd wish to disagree

00:05:12.400 with someone who's a professional historian,

00:05:13.760 but I think one of the things that comes out of learning history

00:05:18.480 is understanding the part of human nature that is recurring.

00:05:23.420 And human beings will often respond to similar stimuli in similar ways

00:05:27.140 because human beings remain fairly consistent over time,

00:05:30.060 I would argue, even though morals and whatever changes.

00:05:33.380 But what's interesting, so what you're really saying is,

00:05:35.240 in the 15th century, what you have is a set of what we might call,

00:05:39.800 I'm translating this into sufficiently abstract language

00:05:42.940 so that it can be applied to the modern world.

00:05:44.660 You have a set of increasingly corrupt institutions

00:05:47.840 that are being perceived as corrupt,

00:05:50.140 the ones that are in charge of things.

00:05:52.040 Then you have a change in the communication,

00:05:54.920 which means more people have access, A, to information,

00:05:57.860 but B, also to the disseminate,

00:05:59.760 they're more able to disseminate information.

00:06:01.820 And that creates an environment in which the orthodoxies

00:06:08.040 that have existed and been held in place up until this moment

00:06:11.120 are destroyed, or at least challenged very powerfully.

00:06:15.840 And there is a fragmentation of reality

00:06:18.940 in that more people now believe more different things

00:06:21.960 in the same space.

00:06:23.480 And from that, if I'm not mistaken,

00:06:25.480 follows two centuries of religious war.

00:06:27.280 So, the obvious question for us is, where are we headed?

00:06:33.560 That's the one question that you should never ask a historian,

00:06:36.240 because they're completely unqualified to tell you.

00:06:38.240 But the analysis, I think we're broadly saying the same thing.

00:06:44.060 I think you're slightly dog-whistling a little bit more

00:06:46.060 than I am to current trends, but that's fine,

00:06:49.500 because that's the job.

00:06:52.260 But I think, yeah, I brought this up,

00:06:55.240 and I think that there are obvious parallels

00:06:58.960 between what happens in a society

00:07:02.960 when you introduce a brand new way of communicating.

00:07:08.920 And it is interesting, if one has looked at the 15th century,

00:07:14.100 then to look at what's going on now with,

00:07:16.660 on a far greater and faster scale.

00:07:19.220 I mean, Gutenberg's press and the iPhone in your pocket

00:07:22.040 are not the same thing.

00:07:23.620 And there are, and this is the big point of doing history,

00:07:26.560 is not just to look at similarities,

00:07:28.320 it's to look at differences.

00:07:31.140 There are wild differences in what we're talking about.

00:07:34.540 What are they?

00:07:37.340 Well, there's a big difference between the printing press

00:07:41.900 and the volume of material that can be published

00:07:46.760 and the nature of social media.

00:07:50.720 And there is a big difference between the scale of globalization

00:07:58.940 in the world and the amount of,

00:08:01.380 the sort of range of interests that apply in our case

00:08:04.200 versus in the 15th century.

00:08:08.240 And there's a fundamental difference to living

00:08:10.380 in a sort of nuclear weaponized world.

00:08:13.100 A million different differences.

00:08:14.900 A million differences.

00:08:16.520 But the sort of, yes, the elemental bits of a communications revolution,

00:08:21.460 a new reformation is something that I'm kind of interested in.

00:08:24.760 For sure.

00:08:25.220 And the thing that I find interesting is that the words

00:08:29.460 that we use nowadays, they're not the same

00:08:34.020 as the words we used back then.

00:08:36.560 So, for instance, the word crusade,

00:08:39.100 it seems like everything now is a crusade.

00:08:42.060 We're going to have a crusade against sugar.

00:08:43.860 We're going to have a crusade against this,

00:08:45.620 a crusade against that.

00:08:47.320 But when you look back at the original meaning

00:08:49.660 of the word crusade, it's very different.

00:08:52.540 Yes.

00:08:52.800 So what I want to talk about is what was the original meaning

00:08:56.960 of the word crusade?

00:08:58.200 Right.

00:08:58.900 And what were the purposes of it?

00:09:01.980 And why did they happen?

00:09:03.260 Well, there's two parts to what you've just said.

00:09:09.960 The first is to do with the way that language and the English language

00:09:18.120 moves and evolves at the moment and the speed with which words

00:09:21.520 are detached from their original meaning or, you know,

00:09:25.500 uses analogy and then the analogy becomes the sort of fixed meaning

00:09:29.500 meaning within the word.

00:09:31.860 And there is also a kind of a current obsession

00:09:35.200 with renaming familiar things and giving them new terms.

00:09:39.080 So this, for example, is a podcast.

00:09:42.320 But in about 20 years ago, you might have called it a television show

00:09:45.860 because it's being filmed and it's just some people discussing.

00:09:48.720 Right.

00:09:48.880 OK.

00:09:49.260 But put that aside.

00:09:50.180 Let's go into the Middle Ages and talk about the idea

00:09:54.800 of what the crusade meant.

00:09:56.160 And when I wrote my book on the crusades, I called it crusaders.

00:10:00.800 And I called it crusaders for a good reason because it's much easier

00:10:04.740 to understand what the crusades meant and were in the Middle Ages

00:10:10.000 from the 11th century, certainly through the 15th,

00:10:14.160 even into the 16th century, if you think in terms of crusaders

00:10:18.040 rather than crusades themselves.

00:10:21.360 When we teach the crusades in schools and universities,

00:10:24.540 we typically think about numbered crusades.

00:10:26.340 The first crusade was, you know, the big land armies went to Jerusalem

00:10:29.140 to liberate it from the forces of Islam.

00:10:32.600 Second crusade to, you know, to revenge the fall of Edessa.

00:10:36.400 Third crusade to revenge the fall of Jerusalem to Saladin

00:10:38.900 and so on and so on and so on until we lose count after about nine crusades.

00:10:41.920 No one at the time was going, well, the fifth crusade's kicking off.

00:10:47.340 I'll get on board with that because I missed the fourth.

00:10:48.860 I mean, these are historians' terms.

00:10:52.660 To be a crusader was something real in the Middle Ages

00:10:55.960 because it meant that you'd taken the cross.

00:10:58.760 You were signed with the cross.

00:10:59.820 You'd been through a formal ceremony in which you'd made effectively

00:11:03.040 a contract with the church and, in a sense, with the Almighty.

00:11:08.300 And that contract was that you were going, you had promised formally

00:11:12.780 in front of other people to go and fight the enemies of Christ

00:11:18.020 as determined ultimately by the papacy or under secular pressure

00:11:23.220 from kings and such.

00:11:26.100 You had taken the mark of the cross, usually a strip of cloth

00:11:30.260 in the shape of a cross sewn to your clothes,

00:11:32.320 which is a public sign that you were going to do this.

00:11:34.400 And in return, you'd been offered some benefits, some worldly, let's say.

00:11:40.320 Your property was under the protection of the papacy

00:11:43.960 for the duration of your crusade.

00:11:47.120 And most importantly, you had bargained for the remission of your sins.

00:11:54.740 By going on crusade, by going to fight the enemies of Christ,

00:12:01.540 as crusades evolve, it can be in a number of different places,

00:12:05.220 you are buying remission of sins.

00:12:07.700 And therefore, you are buying a shortcut through purgatory.

00:12:11.140 It's like having this sort of fast track at the airport through security.

00:12:14.780 You know, you're not going to have to live through that waking hell

00:12:17.780 of queuing with everybody else.

00:12:20.060 Your path to heaven after you die is going to be shorter.

00:12:25.400 It's a form of penance.

00:12:27.500 So to make that oath is to distinguish yourself from other people.

00:12:34.180 And we should think about crusaders rather than crusades.

00:12:39.320 If we want to get a handle on what this thing really is, I believe.

00:12:42.980 And because people think it was motivated purely by religion.

00:12:49.940 But like you said yourself, there was also other factors at play here.

00:12:54.700 You know, there was a chance to make a name for yourself.

00:12:59.340 It was a chance for a young man to make his way in the world

00:13:02.260 to find some sense of purpose, money.

00:13:05.420 So I think one of the things I wanted to talk about is the way that we look

00:13:09.200 at it through a 21st century lens is actually a little bit of a distortion,

00:13:13.320 isn't it, from the medieval reality.

00:13:15.920 Yeah.

00:13:16.140 And there's another distortion which you've introduced in the question,

00:13:18.840 which is to view all crusades as the same.

00:13:21.480 Because the crusading movement changes radically from its inception,

00:13:28.340 I would argue, in the 1060s rather than 1090s,

00:13:31.220 which is when the first crusade happens.

00:13:32.720 The 1060s in the Iberian Peninsula is when lots of ideas that sort of froth around,

00:13:37.860 bubble around in the soup of crusading start to emerge.

00:13:43.520 It's radically different by the time you get to, let's say, even the 14th century.

00:13:47.140 Things have changed.

00:13:47.920 Even the 13th century has become very different.

00:13:50.680 So crusading changes across time.

00:13:54.020 It's not a fixed thing.

00:13:55.740 It's not just a fixed civilizational war between X religion and Y religion.

00:14:03.440 That's a component of crusading.

00:14:05.720 And probably in the academic debates over crusading,

00:14:09.700 which have gone on in the last 20 years or so,

00:14:13.440 there's been a drive to push out all idea that there's even an element of contest

00:14:19.560 between Islam and Christianity within crusading, which is preposterous.

00:14:22.960 But it is not the only element of crusading.

00:14:26.840 There are lots of political factors, regional factors, geographical factors,

00:14:30.020 and there are lots of factors that are purely individual,

00:14:32.780 which is to go back to this idea of the crusader.

00:14:35.200 You know, why I might choose to go on a crusade might be different

00:14:38.140 from why you might choose to go on a crusade,

00:14:40.060 and where I might choose to go on a crusade might be different

00:14:42.160 from where you choose and so on and when and so on and so forth.

00:14:46.420 So it's a very complex idea.

00:14:49.900 And to return, you know, to close the loop slightly on your first question,

00:14:54.920 that's why the sort of the use of a crusade against litter

00:15:01.560 or a crusade against, you know, whatever, diesel cars or whatever,

00:15:06.900 is not a very helpful idiom in English because it just suggests

00:15:11.300 that a crusade only means a sort of a passionate, zealous struggle

00:15:18.420 in the name of a single cause.

00:15:19.960 That's actually, that's quite a distortion of what crusading

00:15:23.000 in the Middle Ages actually is.

00:15:24.180 Well, I'm really keen to hear you break down how those movements evolved

00:15:29.540 over those three centuries or so.

00:15:32.000 But before you do, the one thing that I often think about

00:15:36.940 when we think about anything historic is just a failure of us

00:15:40.800 in the modern world to appreciate that while religion would not have been

00:15:44.280 the sole factor that was driving these people,

00:15:46.420 nonetheless, they clearly existed in a moral and ethical

00:15:50.840 and religious universe that is completely different from our own

00:15:54.520 in the sense that there are very few people in the modern world,

00:15:57.920 there are some, but very few who would go and fight and die

00:16:01.920 for a religious cause.

00:16:03.340 I don't imagine there's many people in this country

00:16:05.220 who would now go to a foreign country because it would give them

00:16:10.500 a faster route to heaven.

00:16:12.840 There's not many people left like that in the modern world.

00:16:14.900 So what is the...

00:16:15.660 Where do you mean?

00:16:16.660 What do you mean what I mean?

00:16:17.760 Where are you talking about?

00:16:18.720 In the West.

00:16:20.320 In the Christian world.

00:16:21.140 Yeah, I mean, all you have to go to is the Eastern Mediterranean.

00:16:23.740 Oh, oh.

00:16:24.040 And you see...

00:16:25.340 I was being diplomatic.

00:16:26.480 This is what I was saying.

00:16:27.060 There's not many people left.

00:16:28.260 There are, of course...

00:16:29.260 So the people who want to wage jihad, they're a pretty strong presence.

00:16:34.040 But in the Christian world, in the world in which we live,

00:16:37.540 this sense that you're going to fight and die for your God

00:16:40.640 or for the opportunity to get into heaven

00:16:42.920 or the opportunity to have your sins forgiven,

00:16:45.720 that seems preposterous to most people in the UK right now,

00:16:48.700 I would say, right?

00:16:49.800 So what was the world that they were living in when it came to religion?

00:16:52.720 Well, again, two parts to the question.

00:16:55.580 Yes, in the West today, and this is the story of maybe just 50, 60, 70 years,

00:17:05.540 the rapid secularisation of most Western societies, with exceptions,

00:17:15.060 has meant that it's now very difficult for us in 2024, 5, whatever,

00:17:25.580 to look back on the world of the Middle Ages

00:17:28.260 and really understand the mind world.

00:17:31.000 That for the most part, the mind world of England, of France in the Middle Ages,

00:17:39.540 would be to live in a theocracy closest in character to modern Saudi Arabia

00:17:45.480 in terms of the presence of religion in everyday life

00:17:50.320 and in politics and in the visibility of it.

00:17:53.200 That would, that's the norm that you've got to kind of try and factor your way into

00:17:56.760 when you think about the Middle Ages.

00:18:00.200 I think the second assumption that's baked into your question is

00:18:04.340 that people today would find it preposterous to go and fight and die for a religious cause,

00:18:12.020 but they might not find it preposterous to go and fight and die for another cause.

00:18:15.200 And I think that in that, you're underestimating just how unwilling people are

00:18:19.440 to fight and die for pretty much anything at the moment.

00:18:22.160 You know, if we go back to the beginning of the 20th century

00:18:24.540 with the mass mobilisation of European countries for the First World War

00:18:28.600 and indeed the Second World War later on,

00:18:32.060 the idea that there would be enthusiastic droves of ordinary people

00:18:36.780 signing up to go and fight and die for their country

00:18:39.840 would now be a hard sell in most Western European countries.

00:18:48.860 Probably less so in the United States because of the relative size of the military

00:18:52.620 and presence of the military in American society.

00:18:55.540 But certainly in Western European states,

00:18:58.060 this idea that you, what would you go and fight and die for?

00:19:01.880 What would you go and fight and die for?

00:19:03.200 Like, as a basic assumption, like, tomorrow, you know, you're leaving the kids,

00:19:06.360 you're leaving the wife, hop on the train, wave your hat, say,

00:19:09.460 I'll see you in six months, knowing that there's the possibility of going to die for.

00:19:13.040 I think, you know, one of the effects of having lived through a historically

00:19:18.500 almost unprecedented and extremely blissful period,

00:19:21.900 relatively blissful period of peace and prosperity in the West,

00:19:25.420 is that we have forgotten how anomalous we are in history

00:19:28.920 and how unlike most other generations in history we are.

00:19:33.200 Where there were a number of causes which were so sort of baked into character,

00:19:39.140 mind, world, culture, society, that it was assumed that if these were challenged,

00:19:44.940 we would, you know, everybody would have a duty to and would feel a responsibility

00:19:49.480 to rise up and fight for them.

00:19:52.040 I've only got to the assumptions of your question.

00:19:54.360 Now I've forgotten what the actual question was.

00:19:55.580 Well, actually, where I was going with it is coming back to the point you made to Francis,

00:19:59.700 which is it wasn't one thing.

00:20:01.840 It evolved over time.

00:20:03.540 The Crusaders were different people in the 30th century.

00:20:07.300 Absolutely.

00:20:07.800 So give us that.

00:20:08.800 You know, the first one starts.

00:20:10.880 Is that a purely religious war at that time?

00:20:13.540 Is that, you know, the Crusaders going to liberate Jerusalem?

00:20:16.600 That's why they're there?

00:20:17.620 Or is there even more complexity to it, even the first one?

00:20:20.360 You're going to get a historian's answer, which is it's much more complex and we have

00:20:23.660 to go back.

00:20:26.280 You did ask.

00:20:27.420 Yeah.

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00:21:35.460 Okay.

00:21:37.140 1090s, as is well known, 1095, Pope Urban II preaches the First Crusade, 1096, 7, 8, 9, they set

00:21:48.320 off, travel over land to Jerusalem, 15th of July, 1099, liberate Jerusalem, seize Jerusalem,

00:21:55.300 great massacres in Jerusalem, set up the Crusader states of Kingdom of Jerusalem, County of Odessa,

00:22:00.160 the Principality of Antioch, County of Tripoli.

00:22:02.780 Okay.

00:22:03.200 And just to interject very briefly, sorry, before we do, the narrative is this city is

00:22:08.940 a Christian city which must be freed from the Muslims who have occupied.

00:22:12.320 Is that broadly the narrative?

00:22:15.180 Christ's sepulchre is there.

00:22:16.340 We're going to come to this.

00:22:16.920 In order to understand what happens in the 1090s, I believe you've got to go back slightly

00:22:24.720 for a generation to the 1060s and you've got to go to the other end of Europe, which is

00:22:30.160 Spain, as we now call it, Spain and Portugal, the Iberian Peninsula.

00:22:33.080 At that point, for hundreds of years, there had coexisted, sometimes happily and sometimes

00:22:41.900 unhappily, a number of different states within the Iberian Peninsula, some of which were ruled

00:22:49.540 by Muslims and some of which were ruled by Christians.

00:22:53.260 Broadly speaking, it's Christians in the north, Muslims in the south.

00:22:56.940 And there'd been tension in and among, in between all of these different states, Christian

00:23:01.300 on Christian, Muslim on Muslim, Muslim Christian, you know, it's a messy place.

00:23:05.680 But during the 1060s, some of the features that we will later come to understand as belonging

00:23:12.900 to crusading start to emerge in these sort of overlapping conflicts in the Iberian Peninsula.

00:23:21.720 There is the idea that there are spiritual benefits to be gained and granted by the church

00:23:31.640 to combatants in that war that you can come from outside the region, fight in that war.

00:23:35.680 and earn some sort of spiritual benefit.

00:23:38.720 There is the idea that the war is not just a sort of political, territorial, economic war,

00:23:45.060 that it has some kind of religious flavor that is germane to whether you're on the Christian

00:23:52.260 side or the Muslim side.

00:23:54.600 And there's also relationships are built up between the secular rulers of the Christian states

00:24:03.460 in particular, and a form of Christian monasticism called Cluniac monasticism.

00:24:13.260 So, Reformed Benedictine monasticism based at Cluny.

00:24:18.180 Cluny is the sort of the grandmothership of a reformed type of monasticism.

00:24:23.800 And its importance for the story of the Crusades is that it produces Urban II, the Pope.

00:24:29.960 He comes out of an intellectual world in which there's been a close relationship between his part of the church,

00:24:37.580 secular rulers fighting wars against Muslims.

00:24:40.640 These wars in the Iberian Peninsula have had a dimension that is to do with combatants receiving spiritual benefits.

00:24:50.220 And the church has backed Christian rulers in that fight.

00:24:58.760 We come then to the 1090s, and the story is complex, but to cut it down to its bones,

00:25:08.100 there's an appeal made by the Byzantine emperor in Constantinople,

00:25:17.540 old capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, still thought of as the Roman Empire, Christian Empire.

00:25:24.960 And the emperor, Alexios II Comnenos, writes to the Pope and says,

00:25:30.820 I'm under constant attack, eastern frontiers, by the forces of Islam, Turkic, Seljuk Turks, among others.

00:25:41.520 I would welcome your assistance in...

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00:26:24.000 Urban II, who's Pope at the time, has a number of problems on his own doorstep,

00:26:31.460 which are to do with trying to revive, when you boil them down,

00:26:36.580 trying to revive the power of the papacy and bolster the power of the papacy

00:26:41.660 and the political and cultural influence of the papacy.

00:26:47.740 And the sort of mashing together of ideas comes to the grand idea that Urban has,

00:26:55.780 which is to preach a crusade, which is to say to the faithful Christians

00:27:00.540 of the Western European kingdoms, particularly France,

00:27:06.600 let's all go and help our Christian brother, the Byzantine emperor,

00:27:12.660 roll back his enemies in this, you know, in our brother kingdom.

00:27:17.760 And we will then go on to take back the city of Jerusalem from Christ's enemies

00:27:25.540 because the city of Jerusalem is where Christ's ministry and passion occurred.

00:27:29.580 It's where his tomb is in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

00:27:33.140 And it is a righteous thing to do for us to go and make sure that's back in Christian hands.

00:27:38.920 And the sermon he preaches at Clermont and the subsequent efforts of preachers

00:27:50.080 going around taking this message, you know, to the ordinary people of Europe

00:27:53.360 really fires people's imaginations.

00:27:56.900 And so it transpires that 1096-7, you start to see these big armies

00:28:05.780 coming out of Western Europe composed of some professional warriors,

00:28:12.540 but a lot of just sort of hangers-on, who want to claim this spiritual benefit,

00:28:17.600 who want to have remission of sins, and who are prepared to leave their homes

00:28:21.340 and travel thousands of miles away in pursuit of that.

00:28:26.600 One of these historical phenomenons that when, you know, you can explain it,

00:28:31.160 as I'm trying to do now, element by element, strand by strand,

00:28:33.980 and show the complexity of it, but sometimes when you, also when you stand back from it,

00:28:37.780 you go, and I will channel Joe Rogan here, that's wild.

00:28:44.140 That's wild.

00:28:45.880 It is wild.

00:28:46.800 And as a historian, I think sometimes you have to recognise that.

00:28:51.380 Sometimes our instinct as historians is to rationalise everything away,

00:28:57.000 and then often it's worth saying, you know what, this was like a fucking weird time.

00:29:01.800 And had the First Crusade failed, which by rights it should have done,

00:29:09.580 at a number of turns, that I think would have been the last of it.

00:29:14.720 But it doesn't fail.

00:29:16.520 They keep on succeeding.

00:29:18.200 They make their way, these armies, all the way across Europe,

00:29:21.960 various routes, but largely down the Danube,

00:29:24.120 across the Balkans, to Constantinople,

00:29:29.100 and then they move on, march all the way through,

00:29:32.160 to use the old-fashioned term, Asia Minor,

00:29:34.340 mostly modern Turkey,

00:29:37.200 down to the Amandas Mountains, down through Syria,

00:29:39.880 city after city, they're not defeated,

00:29:42.840 and they find their way all the way to Jerusalem,

00:29:44.680 besiege Jerusalem,

00:29:45.840 and in July 1099, Jerusalem falls.

00:29:48.080 I mean, at every point, this ought to have failed,

00:29:53.580 but it doesn't.

00:29:54.440 And so it looks a lot like a miracle.

00:29:56.840 It looks a lot like a miracle.

00:30:00.180 And from that point on,

00:30:06.360 you know, I think there's a strong argument to see 1099

00:30:08.920 as a real pivotal point in the Middle Ages.

00:30:13.780 People often say, what's the most important event?

00:30:16.380 They don't often say this.

00:30:18.060 Sometimes people say, what's the most important event

00:30:19.820 or, like, world-changing event of the Middle Ages?

00:30:21.860 And most people's pick would be 1348, the Black Death.

00:30:24.220 The global pandemic kills 50%, 60% of people in Europe.

00:30:28.860 There's a very strong argument that up there

00:30:32.620 with the Black Death is 1099, the fall of Jerusalem,

00:30:35.260 because it just sets the framework

00:30:37.040 for the political and military imaginations

00:30:41.540 of generation after generation after generation

00:30:43.700 of people in the West thereafter,

00:30:44.880 and arguably even today, you know,

00:30:46.780 this fact of having crusades built into our language

00:30:50.720 as a sort of, you know, a lazy idiom,

00:30:55.800 something we all think we understand.

00:30:58.400 This idea that it's, you know,

00:31:00.240 crusading is still layered onto cultural

00:31:03.320 and political and geopolitical conversations.

00:31:06.320 It's all the legacy of 1099.

00:31:07.680 But the interesting thing about that crusade

00:31:10.520 is that it could appear from the outside eye

00:31:12.720 to be a miracle.

00:31:13.640 What is also interesting is that it's almost,

00:31:19.140 it might have actually been better

00:31:21.960 if it hadn't ever succeeded.

00:31:23.840 That's what some historians think,

00:31:25.840 for the instabilities that it caused

00:31:27.920 and for the Second Crusade and so on and so forth.

00:31:31.040 So why then did the Second Crusade happen?

00:31:35.020 Because if we took, or if the Crusaders took Jerusalem,

00:31:40.300 then that's a happy ending, isn't it?

00:31:42.360 As I say that, and he raises his eyebrow in disbelief.

00:31:45.080 My eyebrows have a will of their own.

00:31:48.980 Well, it's not just the city of Jerusalem, right?

00:31:51.380 I mean, what's set up after the First Crusade

00:31:53.740 is four fragile states

00:32:01.680 built on a sort of, quote-unquote,

00:32:03.380 Western feudal model.

00:32:05.580 Kingdom of Jerusalem,

00:32:08.100 the County of Tripoli,

00:32:09.380 the Principality of Antioch,

00:32:10.780 and the County of Edessa.

00:32:13.780 Those sit on top of what is mostly now

00:32:17.240 Israel, Lebanon, Syria.

00:32:23.100 Maybe these terms will have changed

00:32:24.640 by the time that our viewers watch this.

00:32:26.320 It is a region of perpetual instability.

00:32:31.660 Those very fragile states,

00:32:34.160 with Jerusalem the city at their heart,

00:32:38.220 once set up, must be defended.

00:32:40.800 And that then is the, you know,

00:32:43.420 a constant factor

00:32:46.840 in the thinking of politicians

00:32:50.120 at the other end of the Mediterranean,

00:32:52.500 that it is a high duty

00:32:56.440 to help sustain the Crusader states.

00:33:03.340 The rough modern analogy

00:33:05.580 is what we've seen

00:33:07.440 from the 20th century

00:33:08.660 into the 21st century

00:33:09.860 is the belief,

00:33:12.760 in my opinion,

00:33:13.680 the correct belief

00:33:15.060 that the states of the West

00:33:18.680 and the United States,

00:33:19.980 but, you know,

00:33:21.240 Western European states as well,

00:33:24.900 have a sort of moral duty

00:33:26.920 to uphold and back

00:33:28.060 the existence of Israel

00:33:30.260 in that exact same region.

00:33:33.500 I'm not trying to open

00:33:34.280 that discussion now,

00:33:35.220 but I'm saying that

00:33:36.060 if you want a kind of mental analogy,

00:33:38.480 there's something there.

00:33:40.480 So from the 1090s onwards,

00:33:43.720 there is an awareness

00:33:44.820 in the, let's call it the West,

00:33:46.340 that these Crusader states

00:33:48.100 cannot exist

00:33:48.960 without Western support.

00:33:51.580 And there is therefore

00:33:52.900 a moral and political imperative

00:33:54.300 to support them.

00:33:55.660 Now, that belief

00:33:57.120 does wax and wane over time.

00:33:59.360 And then as now,

00:34:00.660 there is a sort of,

00:34:01.660 a kind of,

00:34:03.100 a desire among Western politicians,

00:34:05.980 kings and princes,

00:34:07.040 to just wish that they could

00:34:09.560 just sort of survive

00:34:10.360 with the minimum possible assistance.

00:34:12.880 And generally,

00:34:13.760 they're only spurred

00:34:14.600 into action by a disaster.

00:34:16.600 So to turn to the Second Crusade,

00:34:18.640 what happens in the 1140s

00:34:20.100 is the county of Edessa

00:34:22.020 is basically overrun

00:34:23.080 by a guy called Zengi.

00:34:29.360 After whom, in fact,

00:34:30.520 one of the,

00:34:31.560 so as we're talking today,

00:34:33.040 Syria has just been overrun

00:34:34.240 and Bashar al-Assad

00:34:35.080 has been kicked out of Syria

00:34:36.760 and one of the elements

00:34:39.080 within the new Syrian regime

00:34:45.300 named themselves after Zengi.

00:34:47.640 Anyway, just as an aside.

00:34:50.500 Zengi, a very brutal warlord,

00:34:53.920 overruns the county of Edessa

00:34:55.080 and there's a realisation

00:34:57.200 in the West

00:34:57.800 that really something

00:34:58.520 has to be done,

00:35:01.040 otherwise more trouble lies ahead.

00:35:02.920 So in the 1140s,

00:35:04.380 what you see is

00:35:05.240 another crusade

00:35:07.780 deliberately modelled

00:35:09.500 on the first.

00:35:11.320 It's cosplay, in a sense.

00:35:12.940 It's like we're going to take

00:35:13.580 the same route,

00:35:14.420 we're going to do the same things,

00:35:16.260 things are obviously going wrong

00:35:17.400 because we're very sinful,

00:35:19.200 God wants us to prove ourselves

00:35:22.680 righteous

00:35:24.420 and to atone for our sins.

00:35:26.520 So we're going to go

00:35:27.260 and do the first crusade again

00:35:28.640 and we're going to get Edessa back.

00:35:29.960 But there's a whole lot

00:35:30.600 of heel dragging

00:35:31.760 because by the time

00:35:32.800 the second crusade comes around,

00:35:34.440 it's no longer being run

00:35:35.500 by sort of nobles

00:35:37.340 or led by nobles.

00:35:38.720 Churchmen are being led

00:35:39.640 by kings

00:35:40.340 and of course,

00:35:41.060 the higher up the political ladder

00:35:42.560 you go,

00:35:43.060 the more diplomacy

00:35:45.120 and bureaucracy

00:35:46.000 you tend to find.

00:35:47.360 And ego.

00:35:48.280 And ego.

00:35:49.040 Well, you can find ego

00:35:50.000 at any level

00:35:50.580 of society,

00:35:52.020 I believe.

00:35:52.580 But the second crusade,

00:35:56.080 but it sounds like

00:35:58.000 the seeds of its own destruction

00:35:59.500 lay in the first crusade

00:36:00.680 because if the crusade,

00:36:01.680 the first crusade

00:36:02.400 basically succeeded

00:36:03.860 by fluke,

00:36:05.560 then...

00:36:05.960 Well,

00:36:06.420 a healthy measure of luck,

00:36:07.860 yeah,

00:36:08.000 but not totally by fluke.

00:36:09.040 Well, yeah,

00:36:09.480 look,

00:36:09.700 if your premise is

00:36:10.600 if the first crusade fails,

00:36:12.280 there isn't a second,

00:36:13.180 yes,

00:36:13.540 absolutely.

00:36:14.620 Absolutely.

00:36:15.260 I think if the first crusade fails,

00:36:17.480 nobody's sitting around going,

00:36:18.660 well,

00:36:19.020 what if another 30,000 of us

00:36:20.640 all walked over the land

00:36:21.740 to Jerusalem

00:36:23.220 and tried again?

00:36:24.480 Nah,

00:36:24.760 it's for the birds.

00:36:27.040 My point I think

00:36:27.880 I made already

00:36:28.380 is like

00:36:28.900 once the first crusade

00:36:31.200 has succeeded

00:36:32.780 and these crusader states exist,

00:36:34.360 yes,

00:36:34.960 there is now

00:36:35.760 a moral and political imperative

00:36:38.220 to defend what's been won.

00:36:40.040 So,

00:36:41.000 in the second crusade,

00:36:43.000 the county of Odessa

00:36:44.380 has been overrun

00:36:45.320 by this brutal warlord.

00:36:47.340 What happens from there?

00:36:49.580 Well,

00:36:50.020 the second crusade

00:36:50.680 is by and large

00:36:51.300 a failure

00:36:51.700 and Odessa

00:36:52.520 has never won back.

00:36:53.860 It's a short story.

00:36:55.900 Louis VII,

00:36:56.900 king of France,

00:36:57.580 most prominent leader

00:36:58.300 of the crusade,

00:36:59.820 goes along with his wife,

00:37:01.300 famous wife,

00:37:01.880 Eleanor of Aquitaine,

00:37:02.960 who will later marry

00:37:03.800 the English king,

00:37:04.620 Henry II,

00:37:05.260 and be the sort of matriarch

00:37:06.120 of the Plantagenet dynasty.

00:37:08.580 They take a long time

00:37:09.520 getting there.

00:37:10.520 Louis is almost

00:37:11.020 captured,

00:37:12.300 killed on the way.

00:37:13.460 They run out of money.

00:37:14.660 There's all sorts of scandal

00:37:15.600 that Eleanor of Aquitaine

00:37:16.800 is,

00:37:17.420 so it's said,

00:37:18.900 conducting an affair

00:37:19.800 with her uncle,

00:37:20.640 reigning the count of Tripoli

00:37:21.420 when she gets there.

00:37:22.280 I don't think that's true,

00:37:22.880 but that's what sort of,

00:37:23.660 that's the scandal,

00:37:24.880 the sort of skank merchants

00:37:26.020 put around.

00:37:27.680 Nothing is really done.

00:37:28.980 They waste a lot of money

00:37:29.660 and time

00:37:30.000 and all go home

00:37:30.660 with their tails

00:37:31.140 between their legs.

00:37:31.740 Second Crusade's a disaster.

00:37:32.740 There's one very important element,

00:37:35.480 however,

00:37:35.700 to the Second Crusade,

00:37:36.980 which is much more important

00:37:39.600 than what happens

00:37:40.720 out in the East.

00:37:43.180 And that is

00:37:44.220 that during the sort of lead up

00:37:47.320 to the Second Crusade,

00:37:50.280 a bunch of,

00:37:51.180 simplify,

00:37:52.400 a bunch of German knights

00:37:53.700 decide that really

00:37:55.200 Jerusalem's very far away

00:37:56.600 and couldn't they do something

00:37:59.660 a bit closer to them?

00:38:02.020 Isn't there a sort of

00:38:02.820 working from home protocol?

00:38:05.140 So,

00:38:06.180 they managed to get the Pope

00:38:08.380 to agree

00:38:09.580 that

00:38:10.700 since on the sort of,

00:38:12.720 you know,

00:38:13.140 since Charlemagne's time,

00:38:14.440 on the fringes

00:38:15.520 of what we now call

00:38:16.240 Germany,

00:38:17.180 roughly,

00:38:18.760 there are lots of

00:38:19.980 non-Christian people.

00:38:21.460 There are pagans,

00:38:22.320 Baltic pagans,

00:38:23.860 Prussia,

00:38:24.160 and so on.

00:38:28.220 Well,

00:38:28.800 since they're not Christian,

00:38:30.100 aren't they the enemies of Christ?

00:38:31.600 You know,

00:38:31.720 and since we want

00:38:32.320 their kind of lands

00:38:33.140 and resources,

00:38:34.080 can't they be categorized

00:38:35.180 as worthy people

00:38:35.840 to crusade against?

00:38:37.640 And they managed

00:38:38.420 to bend the Pope's arm

00:38:39.360 until they said yes.

00:38:41.760 Very,

00:38:42.300 very important

00:38:42.960 because now

00:38:44.000 the notion

00:38:45.700 of where you can go

00:38:46.700 on crusade

00:38:47.380 has expanded slightly.

00:38:49.140 It's only expanded slightly

00:38:50.200 so that

00:38:52.200 the main focus

00:38:53.580 of

00:38:54.340 crusading

00:38:55.980 on a sort of

00:38:56.440 high political level

00:38:57.320 is still

00:38:57.740 these crusader states

00:38:59.620 in

00:38:59.960 the East.

00:39:04.020 Spain's still going on.

00:39:05.400 You know,

00:39:05.640 we can still sort of

00:39:06.480 have that kind of

00:39:07.640 theatre.

00:39:08.720 Now there's a third theatre

00:39:10.000 and that's the Baltic.

00:39:11.300 Well,

00:39:11.480 now there's a third theatre.

00:39:13.280 There can easily be

00:39:13.980 a fourth

00:39:14.520 and a fifth

00:39:15.100 and a sixth.

00:39:16.620 It's like once

00:39:17.540 you make

00:39:18.780 alien,

00:39:21.160 what was it called?

00:39:21.980 Prometheus

00:39:22.420 or resurrection

00:39:23.080 or whatever it was.

00:39:23.820 Now the franchise

00:39:24.560 can expand

00:39:25.340 and believe,

00:39:25.960 you know.

00:39:26.360 So now there's

00:39:27.600 loads more

00:39:28.420 places,

00:39:28.820 there's a sort of

00:39:29.340 principle that's established.

00:39:30.680 It doesn't go very far

00:39:32.200 in the 12th century

00:39:33.520 but it's established

00:39:34.580 that crusading

00:39:35.360 can happen.

00:39:36.720 Crusading

00:39:37.120 isn't

00:39:37.820 Jerusalem.

00:39:40.000 Crusading is

00:39:40.960 enemies of Christ.

00:39:43.060 That becomes

00:39:43.660 very important

00:39:44.340 over the history

00:39:44.880 of crusading.

00:39:45.560 So that's what happens

00:39:47.360 with the second one.

00:39:48.740 They go back

00:39:49.480 with the tail

00:39:49.900 between the legs.

00:39:51.060 How do we get

00:39:51.660 to the next one?

00:39:53.080 What happens

00:39:53.600 in the intermediate period?

00:39:56.600 Well,

00:39:57.700 we've been looking

00:39:59.360 at things

00:39:59.700 from the Christian

00:40:00.200 perspective

00:40:00.780 hitherto.

00:40:04.720 Islamic

00:40:05.160 chroniclers,

00:40:07.100 students of

00:40:07.940 what's gone on

00:40:08.600 in this crusade

00:40:09.360 that seems so

00:40:10.760 important to the West,

00:40:12.100 when they sort of

00:40:13.080 deign to notice it,

00:40:15.520 the crooks

00:40:15.860 in the greater world

00:40:16.680 of Islam,

00:40:17.240 this is really

00:40:17.640 not that big

00:40:18.280 of a deal.

00:40:19.280 It's kind of

00:40:19.780 annoying.

00:40:23.600 They argue

00:40:24.640 that the reason

00:40:25.240 Jerusalem fell,

00:40:27.580 the reason

00:40:27.840 Jerusalem falls

00:40:28.740 in 1099

00:40:29.540 is because

00:40:30.240 the forces

00:40:30.720 of Islam

00:40:31.160 are at odds

00:40:32.420 with each other

00:40:32.980 and very broadly

00:40:34.060 speaking,

00:40:34.600 this means

00:40:34.980 there's a big

00:40:35.440 sectarian division

00:40:37.320 then as now

00:40:38.440 between the forces

00:40:39.440 of Sunni

00:40:39.900 and Shia

00:40:41.040 in broadly

00:40:42.880 speaking

00:40:43.060 the Middle East.

00:40:43.680 now it's

00:40:45.820 again

00:40:46.180 very broad strokes

00:40:47.140 Iran and Saudi Arabia

00:40:48.460 Shia and Sunni

00:40:49.700 then it's

00:40:52.320 effectively

00:40:52.980 Syria

00:40:53.760 Sunni

00:40:56.360 and Egypt

00:40:57.600 Fatimid Shiite

00:40:58.840 and because

00:41:00.420 they've been

00:41:00.980 loggerheads

00:41:01.920 the argument

00:41:02.720 goes

00:41:03.180 this is why

00:41:04.700 we were weak

00:41:05.260 and the Christians

00:41:05.780 found their way in.

00:41:07.900 Now what happens

00:41:08.800 over the

00:41:10.500 between the

00:41:12.080 Second and Third

00:41:12.580 Crusade

00:41:13.100 is that

00:41:14.160 after Zengid

00:41:15.040 there's a guy

00:41:15.320 called Nur al-Din

00:41:16.080 and after Nur al-Din

00:41:17.080 there's a guy

00:41:17.420 called Saladin

00:41:18.380 probably the most

00:41:19.900 famous name

00:41:20.600 a Kurdish general

00:41:22.080 who rises up

00:41:22.960 very short story

00:41:23.900 very long story short

00:41:24.960 to take control

00:41:27.060 as sultan

00:41:27.820 of

00:41:28.640 a combined

00:41:30.240 now Sunni

00:41:32.680 led

00:41:33.080 Syria

00:41:33.920 and Egypt

00:41:34.640 that means

00:41:35.960 that the

00:41:36.620 Crusader states

00:41:37.580 which have

00:41:38.260 hitherto been able

00:41:39.060 to play off

00:41:39.940 Syria

00:41:42.680 versus Egypt

00:41:43.580 effectively

00:41:44.080 are now

00:41:44.740 surrounded

00:41:45.100 and it's been

00:41:46.180 said for a very

00:41:46.700 long time

00:41:47.120 that when this

00:41:47.540 happens

00:41:47.960 bad things

00:41:49.520 will ensue

00:41:50.160 and bad things

00:41:50.920 do ensue

00:41:51.500 from a Christian

00:41:52.120 point of view

00:41:52.640 the bad thing

00:41:53.620 that ensues

00:41:54.240 is that on the

00:41:55.080 4th of July

00:41:55.740 1187

00:41:56.680 Saladin

00:41:57.340 leads a

00:41:58.920 gigantic army

00:42:00.020 into battle

00:42:00.600 against a very

00:42:01.180 big Christian

00:42:02.140 army led by

00:42:02.760 King Guy

00:42:03.300 the first king

00:42:03.860 of Jerusalem

00:42:04.380 near the

00:42:07.140 twin horns

00:42:08.000 of an extinct

00:42:08.380 volcano

00:42:08.920 at Hattin

00:42:09.680 the battle

00:42:10.240 of Hattin

00:42:10.720 4th of July

00:42:11.400 1187

00:42:12.040 sees the

00:42:12.480 Christians

00:42:12.720 absolutely

00:42:13.280 wiped out

00:42:14.000 wiped out

00:42:15.680 King Guy

00:42:16.300 is captured

00:42:17.220 the most

00:42:18.480 holy relic

00:42:19.200 in Christendom

00:42:20.300 the big

00:42:21.580 chunk

00:42:22.100 of the

00:42:22.860 true cross

00:42:23.560 supposed to be

00:42:24.940 the last

00:42:25.580 major remaining

00:42:26.280 fragment of the

00:42:26.900 cross on which

00:42:27.380 Christ was

00:42:27.760 crucified

00:42:28.160 is seized

00:42:30.280 never to be

00:42:30.900 seen again

00:42:31.420 as it turns

00:42:32.000 out

00:42:32.360 a lot of

00:42:33.280 the sort of

00:42:33.560 crack troops

00:42:34.300 of the

00:42:34.940 crusader

00:42:36.660 world army

00:42:38.920 the templars

00:42:39.840 and hospitallers

00:42:40.680 are taken

00:42:41.780 prisoner

00:42:42.160 and are

00:42:43.160 killed

00:42:43.700 or executed

00:42:45.080 by Saladin

00:42:45.740 and then in

00:42:47.160 October 1187

00:42:48.500 Jerusalem itself

00:42:50.000 is surrounded

00:42:50.640 and falls

00:42:51.420 without much

00:42:52.020 of a fight

00:42:52.600 and without

00:42:53.300 much of a

00:42:53.740 massacre

00:42:54.040 which is to

00:42:54.620 Saladin's

00:42:55.100 credit

00:42:55.340 and there's

00:42:56.360 a big

00:42:56.580 contrast

00:42:57.100 which is

00:42:57.440 drawn at

00:42:57.740 the time

00:42:58.080 between

00:42:58.360 Saladin's

00:42:58.880 capture of

00:42:59.220 Jerusalem

00:42:59.480 and the

00:42:59.720 first crusader

00:43:00.200 which is

00:43:01.180 violently

00:43:01.680 bloody

00:43:02.080 Jerusalem

00:43:03.620 falls

00:43:04.160 and this

00:43:06.120 is not

00:43:06.460 this is

00:43:06.900 like

00:43:07.280 okay

00:43:07.880 Odessa

00:43:08.260 was bad

00:43:08.880 but

00:43:09.140 wow

00:43:10.920 this is

00:43:11.460 existential

00:43:13.860 shockwaves

00:43:15.760 across

00:43:16.400 Christendom

00:43:16.940 and

00:43:18.000 from a

00:43:20.700 position

00:43:21.060 of

00:43:21.620 kind

00:43:22.220 of

00:43:22.980 oh god

00:43:25.360 it's

00:43:25.780 really

00:43:26.940 annoying

00:43:27.880 to have

00:43:28.420 to prop

00:43:28.840 up these

00:43:29.260 crusader

00:43:29.760 states

00:43:30.300 there's

00:43:30.780 there's

00:43:30.800 a

00:43:30.900 total

00:43:31.640 reversal

00:43:32.160 of

00:43:32.540 political

00:43:33.060 opinion

00:43:33.360 which is

00:43:33.700 it's

00:43:33.940 our

00:43:34.100 absolute

00:43:34.900 bounden

00:43:35.880 duty

00:43:36.440 to

00:43:37.600 save

00:43:38.420 these

00:43:39.140 crusader

00:43:39.520 states

00:43:39.860 and to

00:43:40.140 take

00:43:40.340 Jerusalem

00:43:40.720 back

00:43:41.180 and

00:43:42.460 the

00:43:42.760 third

00:43:43.420 crusade

00:43:44.100 probably

00:43:46.380 the best

00:43:46.800 known

00:43:47.240 after the

00:43:48.100 first

00:43:48.280 crusade

00:43:48.860 maybe even

00:43:49.480 the best

00:43:49.720 known

00:43:49.900 full stop

00:43:50.360 is led

00:43:51.280 by

00:43:51.760 Philip II

00:43:53.520 and

00:43:53.720 Philip Augustus

00:43:54.280 of France

00:43:54.780 great

00:43:55.540 kings

00:43:56.460 of medieval

00:43:56.980 France

00:43:57.400 Richard I

00:43:58.480 Richard the

00:43:58.940 Lionheart

00:43:59.500 king of

00:43:59.960 England

00:44:00.320 not one

00:44:01.500 of the

00:44:01.660 great

00:44:01.820 kings

00:44:02.080 of

00:44:02.200 England

00:44:02.420 of the

00:44:02.720 middle

00:44:02.880 ages

00:44:03.180 but

00:44:03.380 certainly

00:44:03.740 one of

00:44:05.440 the most

00:44:06.360 famous

00:44:06.720 international

00:44:07.220 statesmen

00:44:08.240 of the

00:44:08.980 middle

00:44:09.160 ages

00:44:09.500 and

00:44:11.220 various

00:44:12.060 others

00:44:12.380 and

00:44:12.840 they

00:44:13.860 take

00:44:14.340 their

00:44:14.720 armies

00:44:15.300 not

00:44:15.760 overland

00:44:16.340 they choose

00:44:16.680 new routes

00:44:17.200 and Richard

00:44:18.020 for example

00:44:18.580 goes by

00:44:19.020 sea

00:44:19.340 by

00:44:19.560 Sicily

00:44:20.120 and

00:44:20.500 Cyprus

00:44:21.880 and they

00:44:24.160 pitch up

00:44:24.660 in the

00:44:25.300 kingdom of

00:44:25.660 Jerusalem

00:44:26.060 Saladin

00:44:26.880 by now

00:44:27.280 has

00:44:27.640 Acre

00:44:28.180 up on

00:44:29.960 the

00:44:30.260 northern

00:44:30.660 Israeli

00:44:31.040 border

00:44:31.540 with

00:44:31.820 Lebanon

00:44:32.280 today

00:44:32.940 he's

00:44:33.820 taken

00:44:34.140 Acre

00:44:34.520 and is

00:44:34.780 now

00:44:34.980 besieged

00:44:35.580 so

00:44:35.860 Richard

00:44:36.460 and

00:44:36.740 Philip

00:44:37.000 Augustus

00:44:37.400 turn up

00:44:37.900 and join

00:44:38.300 in the

00:44:38.540 siege of

00:44:38.860 Acre

00:44:38.980 they take

00:44:40.520 it back

00:44:41.060 and then

00:44:41.960 they fall

00:44:43.100 out

00:44:43.340 and Philip

00:44:43.740 goes home

00:44:44.220 Richard

00:44:44.880 leads

00:44:45.780 a march

00:44:46.820 of his

00:44:47.120 army

00:44:47.500 all the

00:44:49.000 way down

00:44:49.560 the coast

00:44:50.620 with the

00:44:51.800 aim of

00:44:52.200 turning

00:44:52.720 inland

00:44:54.760 when he

00:44:55.100 gets to

00:44:55.720 Jaffa

00:44:56.400 now part

00:44:56.940 of Tel

00:44:57.320 Aviv

00:44:57.600 over the

00:44:59.500 Judean

00:44:59.780 hills

00:45:00.060 to

00:45:00.300 Jerusalem

00:45:00.660 he's

00:45:00.820 going to

00:45:00.980 liberate

00:45:01.280 Jerusalem

00:45:01.580 but he

00:45:01.780 never quite

00:45:02.160 gets there

00:45:03.820 falls just

00:45:05.520 short twice

00:45:06.420 but he

00:45:07.400 goes home

00:45:07.920 having shored

00:45:08.900 up a

00:45:10.060 reduced

00:45:10.860 but still

00:45:12.360 viable

00:45:12.900 kingdom of

00:45:13.480 Jerusalem

00:45:13.900 and the

00:45:16.020 third

00:45:16.220 crusade

00:45:16.840 gets

00:45:18.380 almost to

00:45:19.600 Jerusalem

00:45:20.020 but they

00:45:21.000 go home

00:45:21.400 with a

00:45:21.640 sense of

00:45:21.900 unfinished

00:45:22.220 business

00:45:22.720 and then

00:45:23.200 all fall

00:45:24.100 out

00:45:24.320 when they

00:45:24.580 get home

00:45:24.960 to the

00:45:25.320 West

00:45:25.500 it's

00:45:26.140 interesting

00:45:26.460 that you

00:45:26.740 said that

00:45:27.180 about

00:45:27.440 Richard

00:45:27.760 the

00:45:27.960 first

00:45:28.240 because

00:45:28.660 he's

00:45:29.740 one of

00:45:30.020 our

00:45:30.180 most

00:45:30.440 famous

00:45:31.320 ever

00:45:31.600 kings

00:45:32.000 in this

00:45:32.840 country

00:45:33.180 rightly so

00:45:33.720 why do you

00:45:36.400 say that?

00:45:36.880 well he's

00:45:37.400 very famous

00:45:38.180 because he

00:45:38.660 was a

00:45:40.580 great

00:45:40.860 crusading

00:45:41.540 hero for

00:45:42.220 those who

00:45:42.800 celebrate

00:45:43.520 and

00:45:44.920 one of

00:45:46.980 the most

00:45:47.180 famous men

00:45:47.680 in the

00:45:47.860 world of

00:45:48.160 his time

00:45:48.540 I said

00:45:49.040 he wasn't

00:45:49.280 a great

00:45:49.560 English

00:45:49.800 king

00:45:50.100 and I

00:45:52.740 meant that

00:45:53.100 because he's

00:45:53.500 basically an

00:45:54.020 absentee

00:45:55.060 he basically

00:45:57.020 guts

00:45:57.680 England's

00:45:58.880 finances

00:45:59.280 twice

00:45:59.880 wants to

00:46:00.420 pay for

00:46:00.660 the

00:46:00.800 crusade

00:46:01.240 and wants

00:46:01.560 to pay

00:46:01.800 for his

00:46:02.060 ransom

00:46:02.420 because he

00:46:02.760 gets

00:46:02.920 captured on

00:46:03.420 the way

00:46:03.680 back

00:46:04.180 I'm talking

00:46:06.720 about

00:46:06.880 England

00:46:07.180 not

00:46:07.420 the

00:46:07.560 broader

00:46:07.760 Plantagenet

00:46:08.260 empire

00:46:08.720 he's an

00:46:09.880 amazing

00:46:10.340 warrior

00:46:10.780 the greatest

00:46:11.720 general

00:46:12.060 of his

00:46:12.320 day

00:46:12.620 and he

00:46:13.320 dunks

00:46:13.820 repeatedly

00:46:14.520 on the

00:46:14.920 head

00:46:15.180 of

00:46:15.360 Philip

00:46:15.600 Augustus

00:46:16.280 one of

00:46:17.360 the

00:46:17.500 greatest

00:46:17.820 kings

00:46:18.140 of

00:46:18.280 France

00:46:18.520 for the

00:46:18.700 whole

00:46:18.840 Middle

00:46:19.060 ages

00:46:19.340 while

00:46:20.000 Richard

00:46:20.360 I

00:46:20.580 is

00:46:20.800 alive

00:46:21.240 Philip

00:46:21.740 Augustus

00:46:22.200 is a

00:46:22.480 chump

00:46:23.000 again

00:46:23.700 and again

00:46:24.160 and again

00:46:24.560 and again

00:46:25.060 and as

00:46:25.720 soon as

00:46:25.920 Richard's

00:46:26.180 dead

00:46:26.480 wow he

00:46:27.140 just

00:46:27.300 flourishes

00:46:27.680 into the

00:46:28.120 greatest

00:46:29.180 statesman

00:46:29.980 in the

00:46:30.180 West

00:46:30.500 that's

00:46:31.640 a

00:46:31.720 measure

00:46:31.940 of how

00:46:32.880 intimidating

00:46:34.560 a

00:46:36.180 politician

00:46:37.200 general

00:46:38.680 Richard

00:46:39.140 was

00:46:39.660 how

00:46:40.340 resilient

00:46:40.700 he

00:46:41.060 was

00:46:41.520 but if

00:46:43.300 you were

00:46:43.680 you know

00:46:44.560 for England

00:46:45.460 itself

00:46:45.960 he drains

00:46:47.800 it of

00:46:48.560 money

00:46:48.880 neglects

00:46:50.080 its

00:46:50.220 government

00:46:50.600 and leaves

00:46:51.860 his brother

00:46:52.220 John

00:46:52.620 not a

00:46:53.720 great guy

00:46:54.280 but

00:46:54.760 nevertheless

00:46:55.460 leaves him

00:46:56.620 with problems

00:46:57.180 which fester

00:46:57.760 until you have

00:46:58.300 Magna Carta

00:46:58.920 so I mean

00:47:00.080 Richard

00:47:00.400 that's what I

00:47:00.960 meant by

00:47:01.260 not a

00:47:01.600 great

00:47:01.920 English

00:47:02.720 king

00:47:03.080 not a

00:47:03.880 sort of

00:47:04.220 if we're

00:47:04.480 in the

00:47:04.700 realm of

00:47:05.100 medieval

00:47:05.540 English

00:47:05.860 kings

00:47:06.200 not a

00:47:07.960 Henry V

00:47:08.340 who's

00:47:09.480 a great

00:47:10.340 general

00:47:10.660 but also

00:47:11.160 has

00:47:11.420 you know

00:47:11.860 understands

00:47:12.260 how to

00:47:13.140 rule

00:47:14.220 a country

00:47:14.960 not a

00:47:15.740 Henry II

00:47:16.280 Richard's

00:47:16.740 father

00:47:17.020 not an

00:47:17.560 Edward III

00:47:18.100 you know

00:47:18.440 and so on

00:47:18.860 and so on

00:47:19.300 How was he

00:47:20.180 perceived at the

00:47:20.840 time in

00:47:21.580 England

00:47:21.860 was he seen

00:47:22.740 as this

00:47:23.220 great

00:47:23.780 warrior king

00:47:24.740 that everybody

00:47:25.580 respected and

00:47:26.520 adored and

00:47:27.080 admired

00:47:27.480 or was there

00:47:28.320 resentment when

00:47:29.120 people were

00:47:29.620 looking around

00:47:30.220 and seeing

00:47:30.860 resources being

00:47:32.000 drained

00:47:32.320 the country

00:47:32.820 being poorer

00:47:33.500 it's difficult

00:47:36.540 to pass

00:47:37.060 really because

00:47:37.780 you know

00:47:38.200 the great

00:47:39.680 issue of the

00:47:40.240 day is the

00:47:40.740 crusade

00:47:41.300 and there's

00:47:42.440 great popular

00:47:43.040 enthusiasm for

00:47:43.780 the crusade

00:47:44.480 there's also

00:47:46.960 a sense

00:47:48.220 that you

00:47:48.580 get

00:47:49.000 from

00:47:51.240 chronicles

00:47:52.360 of the

00:47:52.600 time where

00:47:53.580 you know

00:47:53.880 you have

00:47:54.280 these

00:47:54.660 it's noted

00:47:55.860 that Richard

00:47:56.440 says things

00:47:57.040 like I

00:47:57.840 would have

00:47:58.160 sold London

00:47:58.860 if I could

00:47:59.280 find a

00:47:59.680 buyer

00:47:59.960 you know

00:48:00.240 as soon as he

00:48:00.580 becomes king

00:48:01.120 there's this

00:48:02.280 whole process

00:48:02.900 of what

00:48:03.620 you could

00:48:04.200 call corruptly

00:48:04.960 selling off

00:48:05.660 offices

00:48:06.260 in order to

00:48:07.280 raise money

00:48:07.640 for the

00:48:07.920 crusade

00:48:08.240 but it's

00:48:08.460 very hard

00:48:08.860 to disentangle

00:48:09.500 that from

00:48:10.140 the crusade

00:48:12.020 is the most

00:48:12.420 important thing

00:48:12.940 in everybody's

00:48:13.640 mind

00:48:14.280 you know

00:48:15.780 his reputation

00:48:16.720 is for being

00:48:18.040 what he is

00:48:18.560 he's like

00:48:19.420 you know

00:48:22.140 there's debates

00:48:22.980 that are

00:48:23.360 let's take an

00:48:24.520 example from a

00:48:25.020 different period

00:48:25.540 of history

00:48:25.840 the debates

00:48:26.360 that are

00:48:26.640 currently so

00:48:27.140 fashionable

00:48:27.560 about Churchill

00:48:28.300 at the

00:48:28.960 moment

00:48:29.220 seek to

00:48:32.640 analyse

00:48:33.340 Churchill

00:48:34.020 almost as

00:48:34.720 if he

00:48:35.120 wasn't a

00:48:35.640 great war

00:48:36.160 leader

00:48:36.500 as if

00:48:36.980 there were

00:48:37.380 other

00:48:37.780 judgments

00:48:38.200 that could

00:48:39.040 be made

00:48:39.380 in isolation

00:48:40.040 about

00:48:40.400 Winston

00:48:40.720 Churchill

00:48:41.320 putting aside

00:48:43.240 for a

00:48:43.760 moment

00:48:43.980 the fact

00:48:44.400 that he

00:48:44.780 was one

00:48:45.940 of the

00:48:46.340 three great

00:48:47.360 leaders

00:48:47.720 of the

00:48:48.740 second world

00:48:49.300 war

00:48:49.520 facing down

00:48:50.280 Adolf Hitler

00:48:50.700 but put that

00:48:51.240 aside for a

00:48:52.100 moment

00:48:52.300 and let's

00:48:52.660 talk about

00:48:53.100 his

00:48:53.320 you know

00:48:53.940 a few

00:48:54.720 lines from

00:48:55.140 his writing

00:48:55.680 when he

00:48:56.040 was young

00:48:56.620 that seems

00:48:57.060 so

00:48:57.260 that's

00:48:58.040 preposterous

00:48:59.080 and I

00:49:00.080 think

00:49:00.280 something

00:49:00.680 similar

00:49:01.000 it's hard

00:49:03.880 it's hard

00:49:04.380 to

00:49:04.780 it would

00:49:07.240 have been

00:49:07.380 a very

00:49:07.580 difficult

00:49:07.820 question

00:49:08.080 for anyone

00:49:08.340 to answer

00:49:08.700 at the

00:49:08.900 time

00:49:09.120 what do

00:49:09.340 you think

00:49:09.540 of

00:49:10.080 Richard

00:49:10.280 as a

00:49:10.580 leader

00:49:10.720 put aside

00:49:11.160 the

00:49:11.300 crusade

00:49:11.740 he's a

00:49:13.540 great

00:49:13.720 crusading

00:49:14.260 king

00:49:14.580 so

00:49:16.080 the third

00:49:17.680 crusade

00:49:18.420 sort of

00:49:20.080 doesn't

00:49:20.740 at least

00:49:21.040 doesn't

00:49:21.440 succeed

00:49:21.940 is that

00:49:22.260 fair to

00:49:22.540 say

00:49:22.780 its original

00:49:25.620 metric for

00:49:26.280 success is

00:49:27.040 get back

00:49:27.460 Jerusalem

00:49:27.860 on that

00:49:28.360 metric

00:49:29.100 it fails

00:49:29.720 but

00:49:30.880 if the

00:49:32.000 second

00:49:32.380 metric for

00:49:33.180 success is

00:49:33.760 make sure

00:49:34.220 the whole

00:49:34.560 thing doesn't

00:49:34.980 fall into

00:49:35.360 the sea

00:49:35.800 and there's

00:49:36.140 nothing left

00:49:36.820 it succeeds

00:49:37.920 they take

00:49:38.940 Acre back

00:49:39.640 Acre

00:49:40.100 which becomes

00:49:41.300 then the

00:49:41.960 capital of

00:49:43.040 the kingdom

00:49:43.480 the effective

00:49:44.000 capital of

00:49:44.440 the kingdom

00:49:44.720 of Jerusalem

00:49:45.300 an incredibly

00:49:46.540 important

00:49:47.360 mercantile

00:49:48.720 state in

00:49:49.380 which

00:49:49.660 the power

00:49:51.580 house

00:49:52.120 merchant

00:49:54.060 states of

00:49:56.460 Europe

00:49:56.740 mostly

00:49:57.380 Italian

00:49:58.020 seafaring

00:49:58.680 cities

00:49:59.220 Pisa

00:50:00.000 Genoa

00:50:00.520 have their

00:50:02.100 own

00:50:02.280 quarters

00:50:02.900 Venice

00:50:03.600 have their

00:50:04.260 own

00:50:04.380 quarters

00:50:04.800 it's

00:50:08.060 smaller

00:50:08.700 it's a

00:50:09.500 sort of

00:50:09.800 coastal

00:50:10.120 literal

00:50:10.520 now

00:50:10.960 with a

00:50:11.320 series

00:50:11.640 of

00:50:12.000 trading

00:50:12.840 coastal

00:50:13.980 trading

00:50:14.320 cities

00:50:14.880 big

00:50:15.680 castles

00:50:16.360 manned by

00:50:16.800 the

00:50:16.940 templars

00:50:17.280 and

00:50:17.380 hospitallers

00:50:17.840 but it's

00:50:18.100 viable

00:50:18.440 now

00:50:19.460 and remains

00:50:20.320 viable

00:50:20.740 and

00:50:21.620 it's

00:50:23.060 shored up

00:50:23.680 so

00:50:24.040 from that

00:50:25.120 point of

00:50:25.460 view

00:50:25.700 does

00:50:26.760 Richard

00:50:27.040 does

00:50:27.560 the

00:50:27.700 third

00:50:27.880 crusade

00:50:28.340 no it

00:50:29.200 doesn't

00:50:29.400 take back

00:50:29.780 Jerusalem

00:50:30.060 so on

00:50:30.740 that

00:50:30.880 metric

00:50:31.520 it's

00:50:31.740 failed

00:50:32.020 but it

00:50:32.580 does

00:50:32.900 keep

00:50:33.840 things

00:50:34.420 propped

00:50:35.120 up

00:50:35.320 for a

00:50:35.620 bit

00:50:35.820 and it

00:50:36.200 instills

00:50:36.580 some sense

00:50:37.180 of pride

00:50:37.740 as well

00:50:38.200 which is

00:50:39.440 important

00:50:40.100 so there

00:50:42.580 isn't the

00:50:42.940 sense of

00:50:43.320 we tried

00:50:43.880 and failed

00:50:44.260 the sense

00:50:44.700 is we

00:50:45.060 had a

00:50:45.380 good

00:50:45.560 go

00:50:45.880 and we

00:50:46.220 got

00:50:46.360 some

00:50:46.540 decent

00:50:46.800 results

00:50:47.260 is that

00:50:47.580 broadly

00:50:48.140 where we

00:50:48.440 are

00:50:48.580 we don't

00:50:49.800 have

00:50:50.160 newspaper

00:50:50.900 columnists

00:50:51.540 particularly

00:50:52.100 I mean

00:50:52.800 yes

00:50:55.160 I think

00:50:55.760 people

00:50:56.280 what I'm

00:50:57.280 getting at

00:50:57.840 is it's

00:50:58.600 not an

00:50:59.040 overwhelming

00:50:59.480 catastrophic

00:51:00.080 failure

00:51:00.580 and therefore

00:51:01.300 everyone goes

00:51:01.880 okay

00:51:02.160 this is over

00:51:03.460 oh no

00:51:04.740 right

00:51:05.420 it's a

00:51:07.340 partial success

00:51:08.380 that leaves

00:51:08.780 unfinished

00:51:09.140 business

00:51:09.660 and is that

00:51:10.800 how we get

00:51:11.240 to the

00:51:11.460 fourth crusade

00:51:11.980 right

00:51:12.240 tell us

00:51:12.980 about that

00:51:14.600 the news

00:51:16.160 gets bad

00:51:16.720 the fourth

00:51:18.720 crusade

00:51:19.060 is pretty

00:51:19.640 weird

00:51:20.100 and not

00:51:22.140 in a good

00:51:22.460 way

00:51:22.760 so the

00:51:23.740 fourth

00:51:23.900 crusade

00:51:24.280 springs out

00:51:25.060 of the

00:51:25.680 sense of

00:51:26.060 unfinished

00:51:26.400 business

00:51:26.840 from

00:51:27.240 the third

00:51:27.940 that damn

00:51:29.160 we nearly

00:51:29.560 got there

00:51:30.080 okay let's

00:51:30.620 have another

00:51:31.080 go

00:51:31.500 no kings

00:51:32.560 involved

00:51:33.000 now

00:51:33.300 I think

00:51:33.660 that the

00:51:34.340 experience

00:51:34.940 of the

00:51:35.240 third

00:51:35.420 crusade

00:51:35.840 had rather

00:51:36.740 turned kings

00:51:37.500 off leading

00:51:38.680 these sort

00:51:39.080 of things

00:51:39.920 but you

00:51:40.880 have

00:51:41.120 effectively

00:51:42.420 a bunch

00:51:42.820 of hopped

00:51:44.080 up French

00:51:44.660 knights

00:51:45.040 at some

00:51:45.440 tournaments

00:51:45.820 who decide

00:51:46.580 yo we're

00:51:47.560 going to

00:51:47.740 go do

00:51:48.540 this

00:51:48.760 properly

00:51:49.160 and so

00:51:50.920 they

00:51:51.400 six beers

00:51:52.720 in

00:51:53.000 right

00:51:54.260 they get

00:51:56.180 they team

00:51:58.480 up with the

00:51:58.840 venetians

00:51:59.480 okay we're

00:52:00.740 going to go

00:52:00.940 do it

00:52:01.100 properly

00:52:01.400 we're going

00:52:02.140 to need

00:52:02.320 some ships

00:52:02.800 who makes

00:52:03.380 ships

00:52:03.700 venetians make

00:52:04.420 ships

00:52:04.720 they make a

00:52:05.740 pact with

00:52:06.060 the devil

00:52:06.420 effectively

00:52:06.940 and they

00:52:08.920 get the

00:52:09.420 city of

00:52:10.000 venus

00:52:10.100 wait wait

00:52:10.700 we can't

00:52:11.260 skip over

00:52:11.620 that what's

00:52:11.920 wrong with

00:52:12.160 venetians

00:52:12.580 what's

00:52:13.900 wrong with

00:52:14.460 the venetians

00:52:14.900 but I mean

00:52:15.320 they're tough

00:52:16.340 businessmen

00:52:17.080 they make a

00:52:18.180 pact with

00:52:18.600 the venetians

00:52:19.320 that the

00:52:19.940 venetians are

00:52:20.300 going to

00:52:20.440 build on the

00:52:20.880 ships to

00:52:21.220 take them

00:52:21.460 on crusade

00:52:22.120 the whole

00:52:23.840 of venice is

00:52:24.440 going to

00:52:24.680 turn its

00:52:25.260 hand to

00:52:26.440 ship building

00:52:27.140 for a year

00:52:27.800 and then

00:52:28.580 they're going

00:52:28.840 to go off

00:52:29.180 on crusade

00:52:29.780 and all the

00:52:30.520 french knights

00:52:31.000 have to do

00:52:31.380 is raise

00:52:31.820 the troops

00:52:32.320 to be on

00:52:34.460 those ships

00:52:34.960 this proves

00:52:37.340 easier said

00:52:37.900 than done

00:52:38.360 the ship

00:52:39.660 building gets

00:52:40.260 done by the

00:52:41.200 venetians

00:52:41.760 less so

00:52:43.380 the troop

00:52:43.860 raising

00:52:44.280 and so

00:52:44.980 when it

00:52:45.220 comes time

00:52:45.720 to depart

00:52:46.420 the venetians

00:52:48.080 are

00:52:48.480 and again

00:52:49.120 I'm simplifying

00:52:50.140 well it's our

00:52:51.820 crusade now

00:52:52.580 and here we

00:52:56.000 have if you

00:52:56.560 if you recall

00:52:57.100 when I was

00:52:57.420 talking about

00:52:57.700 the second

00:52:58.060 crusade

00:52:58.620 the idea

00:52:59.140 that

00:52:59.480 that's

00:53:00.720 emerged

00:53:01.080 in the

00:53:01.320 1140s

00:53:02.040 that

00:53:02.280 the enemies

00:53:04.000 of crusade

00:53:04.720 need not

00:53:05.160 necessarily

00:53:05.740 reside in

00:53:06.460 or around

00:53:07.140 Jerusalem

00:53:07.600 this is

00:53:08.020 when it's

00:53:08.360 like

00:53:08.560 it most

00:53:09.380 obviously

00:53:09.620 comes into

00:53:10.040 play

00:53:10.320 things go

00:53:11.980 pretty haywire

00:53:12.720 once the

00:53:13.100 venetians

00:53:13.480 take over

00:53:14.040 what we

00:53:15.600 call the

00:53:15.840 fourth

00:53:16.020 crusade

00:53:16.580 they basically

00:53:18.080 take this

00:53:18.840 crusading

00:53:20.260 fleet

00:53:20.760 to every

00:53:22.660 city they've

00:53:23.300 got beef

00:53:23.760 with

00:53:24.100 starting on

00:53:25.400 the coast

00:53:25.920 of

00:53:26.200 modern

00:53:27.660 Croatia

00:53:28.200 cities who

00:53:29.700 have defied

00:53:30.300 them

00:53:30.600 people who

00:53:31.220 have pissed

00:53:31.500 them off

00:53:31.960 Christians

00:53:32.520 sail up

00:53:33.900 attack these

00:53:35.300 cities

00:53:35.800 the inhabitants

00:53:37.380 of the

00:53:37.620 cities

00:53:37.840 hang

00:53:38.740 crosses

00:53:39.640 over the

00:53:40.320 city walls

00:53:41.060 what are

00:53:41.480 you doing

00:53:42.440 never mind

00:53:43.920 that

00:53:44.220 they sort

00:53:44.640 of attack

00:53:44.940 and burn

00:53:45.400 their enemies

00:53:46.060 and the

00:53:46.860 French

00:53:47.160 warriors

00:53:47.560 are happy

00:53:48.060 to do

00:53:48.380 this

00:53:48.580 because they

00:53:48.860 just want

00:53:49.220 to brawl

00:53:49.620 basically

00:53:50.040 the French

00:53:51.040 warriors

00:53:51.300 are no

00:53:51.600 longer

00:53:51.840 in charge

00:53:52.440 in charge

00:53:53.820 is a guy

00:53:54.220 called

00:53:54.440 Enrico

00:53:54.780 Dandolo

00:53:55.240 a sort

00:53:55.960 of blind

00:53:56.380 80 year

00:53:57.020 old

00:53:57.560 Venetian

00:53:59.780 dodge

00:54:00.160 but why

00:54:02.760 are the

00:54:03.080 French

00:54:03.400 wait

00:54:03.720 wait

00:54:04.040 sorry

00:54:04.240 I don't

00:54:04.520 get this

00:54:04.840 if I'm

00:54:05.220 a French

00:54:05.760 knight

00:54:06.140 it's not

00:54:06.560 hard

00:54:06.820 it's not

00:54:07.140 easy to

00:54:07.520 get

00:54:07.780 if I'm

00:54:08.480 a French

00:54:08.840 knight

00:54:09.100 and I've

00:54:09.440 said I

00:54:09.660 want to

00:54:09.880 go on

00:54:10.080 a crusade

00:54:10.700 you build

00:54:11.380 us some

00:54:11.700 ships

00:54:11.920 I'm going

00:54:12.300 to raise

00:54:12.580 the troops

00:54:13.060 and then

00:54:13.660 they sail

00:54:14.220 me to a

00:54:14.820 Christian

00:54:15.140 city in

00:54:15.740 modern day

00:54:16.260 Croatia

00:54:16.660 and have

00:54:17.180 a go

00:54:17.420 at them

00:54:17.780 why would

00:54:18.940 I do

00:54:20.000 that

00:54:20.220 some of

00:54:21.080 them go

00:54:21.320 home

00:54:21.660 so for

00:54:23.160 example

00:54:23.620 Simon

00:54:24.200 you're

00:54:24.620 French

00:54:24.940 twat

00:54:27.000 for some

00:54:28.100 of us

00:54:28.340 I see the

00:54:28.740 hundred

00:54:28.920 years war

00:54:29.340 they're not

00:54:32.680 in charge

00:54:32.940 anymore

00:54:33.220 sorry mate

00:54:34.180 this is our

00:54:35.400 crusade

00:54:35.800 now

00:54:36.060 they've been

00:54:36.840 like

00:54:37.420 what do

00:54:39.400 you call

00:54:39.740 it

00:54:39.960 a cuckoo

00:54:42.700 in the

00:54:42.960 nest

00:54:43.280 so the

00:54:45.040 ones that

00:54:45.360 don't want

00:54:45.700 to get

00:54:46.100 stuck in

00:54:46.580 to their

00:54:47.280 fellow

00:54:47.520 Christians

00:54:47.880 they go

00:54:48.240 home

00:54:48.560 and the

00:54:49.160 rest of

00:54:49.480 them

00:54:49.660 sacked

00:54:50.020 city

00:54:50.240 after city

00:54:50.720 on the

00:54:51.020 way

00:54:51.120 so

00:54:51.880 culminating

00:54:53.100 in

00:54:53.480 Venice's

00:54:54.860 well

00:54:56.000 they go

00:54:58.380 to

00:54:58.540 Constantinople

00:54:59.300 the greatest

00:55:01.280 Christian city

00:55:02.660 in the

00:55:02.960 Mediterranean

00:55:03.380 and

00:55:06.020 they

00:55:07.920 get

00:55:09.280 themselves

00:55:09.860 involved

00:55:10.800 in a

00:55:11.520 power

00:55:11.840 struggle

00:55:12.340 in

00:55:12.620 Constantinople

00:55:13.580 which

00:55:15.460 ends

00:55:16.100 with

00:55:16.580 and this

00:55:17.400 is a

00:55:17.620 very long

00:55:18.380 story short

00:55:19.020 which ends

00:55:19.880 with the

00:55:20.180 Venetian

00:55:20.700 fleet

00:55:21.100 sacking

00:55:21.600 and burning

00:55:22.260 Constantinople

00:55:23.260 and stealing

00:55:24.980 from

00:55:25.340 Constantinople

00:55:26.100 things that

00:55:26.700 you can

00:55:26.940 still see

00:55:27.320 in Venice

00:55:27.660 today

00:55:28.040 for example

00:55:28.920 if you go

00:55:29.260 to St

00:55:29.520 Mark's

00:55:30.540 you see

00:55:32.220 on the

00:55:32.520 outside

00:55:33.120 of St

00:55:33.520 Mark's

00:55:33.760 there's

00:55:33.900 four

00:55:34.060 beautiful

00:55:34.360 horses

00:55:34.800 well they're

00:55:35.780 replicas

00:55:36.180 inside

00:55:36.860 the real

00:55:37.640 horses

00:55:38.580 were stolen

00:55:39.520 from

00:55:39.820 Constantinople

00:55:40.460 in 1204

00:55:41.420 the excuse

00:55:44.880 might be

00:55:45.400 that yes

00:55:45.840 they're

00:55:46.020 Christians

00:55:46.380 but they're

00:55:46.800 the wrong

00:55:47.040 sort of

00:55:47.440 Christians

00:55:47.780 because they're

00:55:48.960 Orthodox

00:55:49.400 no offence

00:55:50.480 but yeah

00:55:50.960 like yeah

00:55:52.500 like these

00:55:53.260 are the wrong

00:55:53.820 they're Greeks

00:55:54.660 they're

00:55:55.040 yeah

00:55:56.140 we're

00:55:58.060 we're

00:55:58.120 we're

00:55:58.140 we're

00:55:58.160 we're

00:55:58.180 preparations

00:55:58.840 and they

00:55:59.480 depose

00:56:00.080 the Greek

00:56:00.760 emperor

00:56:01.000 of Constantinople

00:56:01.520 install a

00:56:02.120 Latin

00:56:02.400 emperor

00:56:03.200 Latin

00:56:03.720 patriarch

00:56:04.200 I mean

00:56:04.980 somehow

00:56:06.920 we've

00:56:07.360 got from

00:56:08.020 hey let's

00:56:09.520 have this

00:56:09.860 movement

00:56:10.700 where you

00:56:11.160 go and

00:56:11.440 attack

00:56:11.740 the

00:56:11.900 enemies

00:56:12.200 of Christ

00:56:13.420 and earn

00:56:13.800 spiritual

00:56:14.340 privileges

00:56:17.060 remission

00:56:18.020 of sins

00:56:18.520 to

00:56:18.980 yay

00:56:20.120 let's go

00:56:20.600 and destroy

00:56:21.160 the biggest

00:56:21.660 city

00:56:22.060 in

00:56:22.440 Christendom

00:56:22.920 now you

00:56:24.560 could also

00:56:24.980 say yes

00:56:26.020 but the

00:56:26.980 the whole

00:56:27.560 story of

00:56:28.300 of crusading

00:56:29.540 is a story

00:56:30.220 of like

00:56:30.780 absurd

00:56:31.340 and actually

00:56:32.240 quite offensive

00:56:33.040 like

00:56:35.380 theological

00:56:36.360 gymnastics

00:56:36.960 how could we

00:56:37.900 possibly even

00:56:38.560 have the idea

00:56:39.280 of crusading

00:56:39.880 how could it

00:56:40.440 be that

00:56:40.940 Jesus Christ

00:56:41.960 if we

00:56:43.620 remember

00:56:43.900 anything from

00:56:44.560 the ministry

00:56:45.020 and teachings

00:56:45.540 of Jesus

00:56:45.940 Christ

00:56:46.280 it tended

00:56:46.640 to be

00:56:46.960 things like

00:56:47.380 turn the

00:56:47.920 other cheek

00:56:48.400 how could we

00:56:50.040 go from

00:56:50.400 that to

00:56:51.140 what Christ

00:56:52.100 wants you

00:56:52.420 to do

00:56:52.660 more than

00:56:52.920 anything

00:56:53.220 else

00:56:53.520 is go

00:56:53.840 and attack

00:56:54.340 and kill

00:56:54.780 other human

00:56:55.260 beings

00:56:55.800 well that's

00:56:57.660 that's what

00:56:58.240 they managed

00:56:58.580 to do

00:56:58.860 in that

00:56:59.220 that's

00:56:59.540 baked into

00:57:00.120 the

00:57:00.440 theological

00:57:01.780 kind of

00:57:02.820 DNA

00:57:04.020 of crusading

00:57:04.880 so it's

00:57:05.180 already

00:57:05.460 like a

00:57:05.980 mad

00:57:06.800 paradox

00:57:07.480 so maybe

00:57:08.440 it's not

00:57:08.760 that

00:57:09.000 that bizarre

00:57:10.120 and maybe

00:57:10.540 it's even

00:57:10.980 sort of

00:57:11.420 ironic

00:57:11.780 or even

00:57:12.160 the poetic

00:57:12.680 there's poetic

00:57:13.520 justice

00:57:13.900 in the fact

00:57:14.340 that eventually

00:57:15.260 this thing

00:57:15.920 just like

00:57:16.780 ends up

00:57:17.240 in Christian

00:57:17.660 on Christian

00:57:18.080 violence

00:57:18.520 and this

00:57:18.900 by the way

00:57:19.300 isn't the end

00:57:19.640 because at least

00:57:20.380 in

00:57:20.680 at least

00:57:21.300 at least in the

00:57:21.960 fourth crusade

00:57:22.640 it's like

00:57:23.240 Latins versus

00:57:24.120 Greeks

00:57:24.520 it's bits of

00:57:25.820 the Christian

00:57:26.400 world who've

00:57:26.860 been at odds

00:57:27.500 for by now

00:57:28.720 several hundred

00:57:29.700 years

00:57:30.160 it's going to

00:57:31.000 get worse

00:57:31.700 spoiler alert

00:57:33.720 so how much

00:57:35.400 of this was

00:57:35.860 just simply

00:57:36.400 a power grab

00:57:37.140 by the

00:57:37.500 Venetians

00:57:38.080 going

00:57:38.520 you know

00:57:39.200 what

00:57:39.460 we want

00:57:40.440 this

00:57:40.700 we want

00:57:41.080 this

00:57:41.360 we want

00:57:41.740 this

00:57:42.100 we've got

00:57:43.220 this crusade

00:57:43.940 we're going

00:57:44.460 to take

00:57:44.860 it

00:57:45.080 because we

00:57:45.880 can

00:57:46.160 because we're

00:57:46.660 that rich

00:57:47.160 and we're

00:57:47.480 that powerful

00:57:48.080 and we

00:57:48.720 want to

00:57:49.620 consolidate

00:57:50.080 our wealth

00:57:50.680 and power

00:57:51.120 at the

00:57:51.800 expense

00:57:52.200 of these

00:57:52.520 other

00:57:52.720 cities

00:57:53.120 you know

00:57:56.740 when you

00:57:57.300 hear about

00:57:57.940 you're old

00:57:59.100 enough to

00:57:59.440 remember

00:57:59.760 Iraq war

00:58:01.400 yeah

00:58:02.080 Gulf War 2

00:58:03.000 yes

00:58:03.400 2003

00:58:04.200 the best

00:58:05.040 sequel

00:58:05.320 yes

00:58:05.620 yes like

00:58:07.040 Aliens

00:58:07.780 or Godfrey

00:58:08.280 Part 2

00:58:08.700 people would

00:58:10.960 go

00:58:11.240 it's all

00:58:12.280 about the

00:58:12.560 oil man

00:58:13.180 it's all

00:58:13.720 about the

00:58:13.980 oil

00:58:14.260 and you

00:58:15.120 you know

00:58:15.440 you might

00:58:15.760 if you were

00:58:16.020 a neocon

00:58:16.540 at that time

00:58:16.920 go no

00:58:17.300 this is

00:58:17.600 spreading

00:58:17.960 democracy

00:58:18.500 and then

00:58:19.540 like you

00:58:20.000 look back

00:58:20.340 and go

00:58:20.660 oh fuck

00:58:21.920 it was all

00:58:22.240 about the

00:58:22.540 oil

00:58:22.800 you know

00:58:23.500 what I mean

00:58:23.800 yeah

00:58:24.220 okay

00:58:24.780 the fourth

00:58:25.400 crusade

00:58:25.800 is that

00:58:26.160 like you

00:58:26.900 can

00:58:27.340 sort of

00:58:28.460 construct

00:58:28.740 the argument

00:58:29.380 of

00:58:29.800 these

00:58:30.660 crusades

00:58:31.180 you know

00:58:31.620 there was

00:58:32.080 a sort

00:58:32.360 of

00:58:32.500 it was

00:58:32.920 about

00:58:33.100 Jerusalem

00:58:33.580 it was

00:58:34.000 going

00:58:34.100 to be

00:58:34.240 this

00:58:34.420 it was

00:58:34.580 going

00:58:34.680 to be

00:58:34.820 that

00:58:35.040 and the

00:58:35.900 Venetians

00:58:36.220 just took

00:58:36.500 this over

00:58:36.900 and went

00:58:37.140 hog wild

00:58:37.680 this is

00:58:38.940 this is

00:58:39.440 that kind

00:58:40.120 of

00:58:40.380 like

00:58:41.200 it's that

00:58:43.680 cynical

00:58:44.060 in my

00:58:45.180 opinion

00:58:45.460 so we

00:58:46.620 have

00:58:47.000 now

00:58:47.760 the

00:58:48.180 moral of

00:58:49.260 the story

00:58:49.520 is never

00:58:49.960 trust an

00:58:50.400 Italian

00:58:50.720 or the

00:58:51.680 French

00:58:52.020 we're

00:58:52.480 working

00:58:53.700 our way

00:58:53.960 through

00:58:54.100 Europe

00:58:54.320 we're

00:58:55.280 not going

00:58:55.500 to say

00:58:55.660 anything

00:58:55.860 about

00:58:56.060 the

00:58:56.220 Germans

00:58:56.480 because

00:58:57.040 it's

00:58:57.240 self

00:58:57.420 evident

00:58:57.700 so you've

00:58:59.100 got

00:58:59.420 Venice

00:58:59.920 and it's

00:59:00.800 now

00:59:01.060 become

00:59:01.460 gorged

00:59:02.140 on the

00:59:02.800 wealth

00:59:03.240 of

00:59:03.660 other

00:59:04.140 cities

00:59:04.540 which

00:59:04.800 it has

00:59:05.120 effectively

00:59:05.640 plundered

00:59:06.300 is that

00:59:08.500 unfair

00:59:08.800 not

00:59:09.880 particularly

00:59:10.300 so where

00:59:12.420 do we

00:59:12.640 go from

00:59:13.100 how do

00:59:13.400 we get

00:59:13.680 to the

00:59:14.120 fifth

00:59:14.560 crusade

00:59:15.340 and beyond

00:59:17.320 and beyond

00:59:17.980 because

00:59:18.420 it's almost

00:59:19.640 entering

00:59:20.120 double digits

00:59:20.860 towards the

00:59:21.740 end isn't

00:59:22.100 it as a

00:59:22.540 movement

00:59:22.860 well we

00:59:23.320 just

00:59:23.480 stopped

00:59:24.000 being

00:59:24.220 numbered

00:59:24.540 yeah

00:59:24.880 a crusade

00:59:28.280 but is

00:59:29.000 what you

00:59:29.480 see in

00:59:29.740 it

00:59:29.800 well look

00:59:30.280 you get

00:59:31.340 so 20

00:59:32.000 years on

00:59:32.440 from

00:59:32.760 one of the

00:59:34.420 lessons of

00:59:34.820 history is

00:59:35.400 that people

00:59:35.880 are very

00:59:36.160 quick to

00:59:36.560 forget

00:59:36.900 why things

00:59:37.740 didn't

00:59:38.060 work

00:59:38.440 and it's

00:59:39.320 often said

00:59:39.840 the politicians

00:59:40.500 should read

00:59:41.220 more history

00:59:41.740 because then

00:59:42.200 they'd understand

00:59:42.920 you know

00:59:43.520 like the

00:59:44.020 past will

00:59:44.540 teach you

00:59:44.980 and that's

00:59:45.260 bullshit

00:59:45.620 lots of

00:59:46.980 politicians

00:59:47.320 read history

00:59:48.040 and they go

00:59:49.280 now I know

00:59:50.400 how not to

00:59:50.880 fuck it up

00:59:51.420 now I'm so

00:59:52.680 wise and

00:59:53.240 clever I won't

00:59:53.840 make the same

00:59:54.240 mistakes and

00:59:54.780 they do the

00:59:55.100 same thing

00:59:55.940 the version

00:59:57.780 of that

00:59:58.900 decade and

01:00:02.780 a bit on

01:00:03.280 from the

01:00:03.820 fourth crusade

01:00:04.500 there's

01:00:04.960 there's

01:00:05.340 still a

01:00:05.860 sense that

01:00:06.380 well

01:00:07.920 you know

01:00:09.300 we

01:00:09.540 Jerusalem

01:00:10.720 still hasn't

01:00:11.260 been won

01:00:11.560 back

01:00:11.960 and you

01:00:13.960 have the

01:00:14.400 rise to

01:00:15.840 power

01:00:16.560 of well

01:00:17.840 there's a

01:00:19.820 pope called

01:00:20.120 Innocent

01:00:20.420 the third

01:00:20.860 Innocent

01:00:21.240 the third

01:00:21.520 is maybe

01:00:22.380 the sort

01:00:23.520 of the

01:00:24.100 quote unquote

01:00:25.240 greatest of

01:00:25.940 the medieval

01:00:26.360 popes I

01:00:26.900 mean whose

01:00:27.880 whole program

01:00:28.980 of his

01:00:29.260 papacy is

01:00:29.900 about

01:00:30.320 bolstering

01:00:32.020 the power

01:00:33.560 of popes

01:00:34.520 over princes

01:00:35.180 and he

01:00:36.060 weaponizes the

01:00:37.300 crusade as a

01:00:38.040 tool of the

01:00:38.780 papacy which

01:00:39.320 he just

01:00:39.600 anywhere he

01:00:41.700 looks

01:00:42.020 right and

01:00:42.860 so Innocent

01:00:43.400 the third

01:00:43.740 for example

01:00:44.220 is the

01:00:44.620 pope who

01:00:45.180 tries to

01:00:47.540 sort of

01:00:47.860 prepare a

01:00:48.440 crusade

01:00:48.800 against

01:00:49.080 England

01:00:49.460 because he's

01:00:50.260 fallen out

01:00:50.620 with King

01:00:50.940 John

01:00:51.260 Innocent

01:00:52.100 the third

01:00:52.400 is the

01:00:52.700 pope who

01:00:53.140 sets the

01:00:54.200 groundwork

01:00:55.700 for the

01:00:56.220 Albigensian

01:00:56.820 crusade

01:00:57.320 a crusade

01:00:57.800 against

01:00:58.200 Cathars

01:00:58.980 basically

01:00:59.400 vegetarian

01:01:00.060 beatniks

01:01:00.800 in the

01:01:01.080 south of

01:01:01.460 France

01:01:01.860 Innocent

01:01:03.160 the third

01:01:03.460 massively

01:01:04.820 takes the

01:01:05.980 idea of

01:01:06.260 the crusade

01:01:06.660 and just

01:01:06.920 like yeah

01:01:07.580 any enemy

01:01:08.560 of mine

01:01:09.020 is a

01:01:09.280 valid target

01:01:09.860 of crusading

01:01:10.560 so we

01:01:11.640 start to

01:01:11.960 see the

01:01:12.320 metastasizing

01:01:13.200 of crusading

01:01:13.920 from the

01:01:14.380 very early

01:01:15.340 13th century

01:01:16.020 onwards

01:01:16.480 there is

01:01:18.420 still a

01:01:18.800 sort of

01:01:19.220 an idea

01:01:20.680 that well

01:01:21.800 the thrust

01:01:23.240 of this

01:01:23.580 movement

01:01:23.920 ought to

01:01:24.480 be towards

01:01:25.300 Jerusalem

01:01:25.900 but what's

01:01:26.380 the best

01:01:26.720 way to

01:01:27.080 get there

01:01:27.480 now

01:01:27.800 in the

01:01:28.820 fourth

01:01:29.000 crusade

01:01:29.420 the one

01:01:29.680 where

01:01:30.140 Constantinople

01:01:30.840 was burned

01:01:31.420 there had

01:01:32.060 been a

01:01:32.540 plan

01:01:33.000 which was

01:01:33.620 like

01:01:34.040 Constantinople

01:01:35.320 then on

01:01:35.700 to Alexandria

01:01:36.460 Nile Delta

01:01:37.420 and we'll go

01:01:38.520 through Egypt

01:01:39.380 and up to

01:01:40.360 Jerusalem

01:01:41.060 that way

01:01:41.580 evidently that

01:01:43.260 was abandoned

01:01:44.240 the fifth

01:01:46.160 crusade

01:01:46.640 takes this

01:01:47.240 idea

01:01:47.600 and revives

01:01:48.660 it

01:01:48.860 we're going

01:01:50.440 to have

01:01:50.740 a crusade

01:01:51.580 and it

01:01:52.260 takes place

01:01:52.980 in the

01:01:53.820 years around

01:01:54.400 1220

01:01:55.160 we're going

01:01:56.920 to have a

01:01:57.100 crusade

01:01:57.500 but we can't

01:01:58.440 go straight

01:01:58.860 to Jerusalem

01:01:59.380 that's proven

01:02:00.020 to be difficult

01:02:00.540 we're going

01:02:00.920 to go

01:02:01.180 through

01:02:01.860 Egypt

01:02:02.860 via the

01:02:04.580 Nile Delta

01:02:05.280 and there

01:02:07.040 is

01:02:07.580 it gets

01:02:13.040 really

01:02:13.380 grubby

01:02:13.860 and messy

01:02:14.340 there is

01:02:16.260 a very

01:02:16.680 long

01:02:17.260 series

01:02:17.720 of sieges

01:02:18.580 of cities

01:02:19.480 principally

01:02:20.800 the city

01:02:21.120 of Damietta

01:02:21.880 in the

01:02:22.540 Nile Delta

01:02:23.140 and attempts

01:02:24.280 to go up

01:02:24.980 the river

01:02:25.460 towards

01:02:26.220 Cairo

01:02:27.780 effectively

01:02:28.260 and hit

01:02:30.740 the Sultan

01:02:31.420 there

01:02:34.580 and once

01:02:35.380 you've softened

01:02:35.860 up Egypt

01:02:36.220 you can

01:02:37.040 make your

01:02:37.360 way into

01:02:37.760 the Holy

01:02:38.100 Land

01:02:38.440 and it

01:02:40.760 goes wrong

01:02:41.800 very wrong

01:02:43.020 the crusade

01:02:45.720 is a massive

01:02:47.100 loss of life

01:02:47.840 lots of

01:02:48.360 disease

01:02:48.720 there are

01:02:49.020 some sort

01:02:49.340 of picturesque

01:02:50.020 moments

01:02:50.380 like Francis

01:02:50.940 of Assisi

01:02:51.460 turns up

01:02:52.160 at the

01:02:52.460 fifth crusade

01:02:53.320 France of Assisi

01:02:56.000 turns up

01:02:56.440 at the

01:02:56.560 this is

01:02:58.040 what's a

01:02:59.380 good modern

01:02:59.800 example

01:03:00.300 just one

01:03:04.520 popped into

01:03:04.940 my mind

01:03:05.460 it's really

01:03:06.100 good

01:03:06.400 do you

01:03:07.920 remember

01:03:08.160 how big

01:03:08.680 football fans

01:03:09.220 are you

01:03:09.420 yeah I

01:03:09.700 know exactly

01:03:10.220 where you're

01:03:10.520 going with

01:03:10.820 this

01:03:11.060 I'm going

01:03:11.500 to Gaza

01:03:11.800 aren't I

01:03:12.100 yeah you

01:03:12.440 are

01:03:12.580 yeah

01:03:12.840 yeah

01:03:13.100 Raoul Moat

01:03:14.500 is running

01:03:16.740 a mock

01:03:17.200 in the

01:03:18.720 northeast

01:03:19.260 and Gaza

01:03:20.220 decides that

01:03:21.480 he's going to

01:03:21.800 go and talk

01:03:22.260 Moti down

01:03:22.920 and brings

01:03:23.280 him a

01:03:23.480 fishing rod

01:03:23.920 and some

01:03:24.740 Nuki Brown

01:03:25.380 and a

01:03:26.360 basket of

01:03:26.800 fried chicken

01:03:26.840 this won't

01:03:27.100 make any

01:03:27.600 sense if you

01:03:28.180 have American

01:03:28.800 subscribers

01:03:29.800 who are

01:03:30.200 like the

01:03:30.680 majority

01:03:31.080 carry on

01:03:32.040 Americans

01:03:32.600 there was

01:03:34.460 a guy

01:03:34.720 called

01:03:34.940 Gaza

01:03:35.260 put that

01:03:36.340 all

01:03:36.420 put a

01:03:36.660 lot

01:03:36.760 aside

01:03:37.200 France

01:03:38.180 of Assisi

01:03:38.460 turns up

01:03:38.900 at the

01:03:39.140 fifth

01:03:39.480 crusade

01:03:39.740 and says

01:03:40.020 he's going

01:03:40.480 to sort

01:03:41.980 it all

01:03:42.220 out by

01:03:42.600 converting

01:03:43.100 the

01:03:43.420 sultan

01:03:43.660 al-camil

01:03:44.200 to

01:03:44.560 Christianity

01:03:45.120 that's

01:03:47.220 what the

01:03:47.780 sultan

01:03:47.960 al-camil

01:03:48.360 says

01:03:48.600 fortunately

01:03:49.020 France

01:03:49.380 of Assisi

01:03:49.780 he barks

01:03:51.280 with laughter

01:03:51.740 rather than

01:03:52.540 barking

01:03:53.020 cut his

01:03:53.380 head off

01:03:53.680 but the

01:03:55.340 upshot of

01:03:56.180 the

01:03:56.580 fifth

01:03:57.200 crusade

01:03:57.660 is a

01:03:57.900 lot of

01:03:58.200 falling out

01:03:58.800 among

01:03:59.100 Christian

01:03:59.540 powers

01:03:59.920 and

01:04:00.720 everybody

01:04:01.360 goes home

01:04:02.040 having

01:04:02.280 achieved

01:04:02.800 vanishingly

01:04:03.920 little

01:04:04.420 and from

01:04:05.400 this point

01:04:05.840 on

01:04:06.060 things

01:04:06.480 just

01:04:07.900 start to

01:04:08.580 dissolve

01:04:08.980 and

01:04:09.780 there are

01:04:12.380 no

01:04:12.860 more

01:04:14.580 significant

01:04:15.380 the era

01:04:16.740 of the

01:04:17.700 you know

01:04:18.220 the sort

01:04:18.960 of first

01:04:19.500 through third

01:04:20.340 crusades

01:04:20.980 these big

01:04:22.160 for want

01:04:23.900 of a better

01:04:24.140 term

01:04:24.360 international

01:04:25.440 missions

01:04:29.880 led by

01:04:30.620 heads of

01:04:31.140 state

01:04:31.560 is by

01:04:32.920 and large

01:04:33.340 done

01:04:33.720 the most

01:04:35.300 significant

01:04:35.800 thing that

01:04:36.380 happens

01:04:36.840 is that

01:04:39.160 the sort

01:04:41.240 of analogous

01:04:41.960 is that

01:04:42.520 the

01:04:44.060 Holy Roman

01:04:45.960 Emperor

01:04:46.640 Frederick

01:04:47.160 Hohenstaufen

01:04:47.860 and I'm

01:04:48.320 choosing my

01:04:48.920 words carefully

01:04:49.480 because

01:04:49.900 he gets

01:04:51.200 deposed as

01:04:53.920 Holy Roman

01:04:54.420 Emperor

01:04:54.880 and excommunicated

01:04:56.260 four times

01:04:57.080 with fallings

01:04:58.080 out of the

01:04:58.360 papacy

01:04:58.680 but he

01:05:00.320 broke as a

01:05:00.880 peace deal

01:05:01.380 briefly

01:05:01.980 with Al-Kamil

01:05:03.220 the Egyptian

01:05:04.280 sultan

01:05:04.700 for power

01:05:05.900 sharing in

01:05:06.500 Jerusalem

01:05:06.840 I mean these

01:05:07.580 days you

01:05:07.960 would give

01:05:08.600 the guy

01:05:08.920 the Nobel

01:05:09.300 Peace Prize

01:05:09.940 his reward

01:05:10.900 alas is to

01:05:11.720 be excommunicated

01:05:12.560 four times

01:05:13.200 by the

01:05:13.480 papacy

01:05:13.880 but you

01:05:14.340 know what

01:05:14.760 people don't

01:05:15.640 always get

01:05:15.980 what they

01:05:16.220 deserve

01:05:16.620 so there's

01:05:19.300 a brief

01:05:19.780 moment

01:05:20.300 late 1220

01:05:21.160 through early

01:05:21.760 1240s

01:05:22.500 where Jerusalem

01:05:23.020 is accessible

01:05:24.140 and there's

01:05:24.820 power sharing

01:05:25.720 in Jerusalem

01:05:26.160 and that all

01:05:27.460 collapses in

01:05:28.000 the 1240s

01:05:28.740 and thereafter

01:05:29.760 all the

01:05:30.940 dynamics of

01:05:31.960 the politics

01:05:32.720 of the Middle

01:05:33.280 East start

01:05:33.660 to change

01:05:34.160 they start

01:05:35.260 to change

01:05:35.660 because

01:05:36.200 in

01:05:37.480 Egypt

01:05:39.320 there is

01:05:40.120 the rise

01:05:40.720 of a group

01:05:41.760 called the

01:05:42.000 Mamluks

01:05:42.560 originally

01:05:43.360 slave soldiers

01:05:44.560 the model

01:05:45.340 of the

01:05:45.540 Unsullied

01:05:46.040 in Game

01:05:46.360 of Thrones

01:05:46.820 who rise

01:05:48.080 up in a

01:05:48.340 palace coup

01:05:49.300 and become

01:05:50.520 the kind

01:05:50.860 of dominant

01:05:51.400 Islamic force

01:05:53.220 in the

01:05:54.440 region

01:05:54.760 and you

01:05:56.020 also have

01:05:56.360 the arrival

01:05:56.820 on the

01:05:57.180 scene

01:05:57.580 from way

01:05:58.820 way east

01:05:59.420 of the

01:05:59.780 Mongols

01:06:00.240 and the

01:06:02.600 great struggle

01:06:03.540 of those

01:06:04.060 years really

01:06:04.700 is Mongols

01:06:05.260 versus Mamluks

01:06:06.080 and what

01:06:07.220 had once

01:06:07.740 been

01:06:08.160 you know

01:06:09.220 a small

01:06:09.680 but significant

01:06:10.300 group of

01:06:11.160 Christian

01:06:12.060 crusader

01:06:12.520 states

01:06:12.860 is whittled

01:06:13.600 down to

01:06:14.160 just the

01:06:14.740 tiniest

01:06:15.260 sort of

01:06:16.040 little bit

01:06:17.060 on the

01:06:17.360 coast

01:06:17.680 effectively

01:06:18.100 a few

01:06:18.480 cities

01:06:18.920 and castles

01:06:20.020 and it

01:06:21.640 becomes more

01:06:22.780 and more

01:06:23.140 and more

01:06:23.460 untenable

01:06:24.040 until you

01:06:26.020 get to

01:06:26.400 the 1290s

01:06:27.420 early 1290s

01:06:29.200 and there's

01:06:30.640 almost nothing

01:06:31.100 left

01:06:31.480 the castles

01:06:32.180 and the cities

01:06:32.700 are being besieged

01:06:33.320 one by one

01:06:34.160 and eventually

01:06:35.760 Acre

01:06:36.320 the last

01:06:37.280 remaining

01:06:37.680 bastion

01:06:38.260 of the

01:06:39.720 crusader

01:06:40.300 states

01:06:40.740 in the

01:06:41.780 on the

01:06:42.560 mainland

01:06:42.860 that

01:06:45.140 that

01:06:45.400 falls

01:06:45.840 and is

01:06:46.120 evacuated

01:06:46.700 in a

01:06:46.960 sort

01:06:47.120 of

01:06:47.340 this

01:06:50.220 isn't a

01:06:50.660 very

01:06:50.860 triumphalist

01:06:51.680 heroic

01:06:52.280 story is

01:06:53.140 it

01:06:53.280 Dan

01:06:53.520 did I

01:06:54.640 say it

01:06:54.860 was

01:06:55.100 no you

01:06:55.520 didn't

01:06:56.000 but I'm

01:06:56.640 the reason

01:06:57.280 I asked

01:06:57.680 that question

01:06:58.240 is over

01:06:59.200 my lifetime

01:06:59.940 the story

01:07:00.680 of the

01:07:01.000 crusades

01:07:01.540 and the

01:07:01.840 public

01:07:02.120 consciousness

01:07:02.620 has evolved

01:07:03.240 so when

01:07:04.120 I was a

01:07:04.540 kid

01:07:04.780 you will

01:07:05.220 relate to

01:07:05.580 this

01:07:05.720 the

01:07:07.380 Robin Hood

01:07:08.560 movie

01:07:09.820 with Kevin

01:07:10.380 Costner

01:07:10.920 comes out

01:07:12.140 that's

01:07:12.440 plonked in

01:07:12.900 crusader

01:07:13.240 isn't it

01:07:13.720 exactly

01:07:13.980 and

01:07:14.660 crusades

01:07:15.480 are

01:07:15.760 something

01:07:16.120 cool

01:07:16.560 and

01:07:16.760 exciting

01:07:17.220 and

01:07:17.520 something

01:07:18.000 people

01:07:18.280 talk

01:07:18.660 about

01:07:19.020 in

01:07:19.620 that

01:07:19.840 way

01:07:20.120 now

01:07:20.960 it's

01:07:21.220 almost

01:07:21.480 like

01:07:21.840 a

01:07:22.060 stick

01:07:22.380 to

01:07:22.640 beat

01:07:22.860 the

01:07:23.020 Western

01:07:23.980 Europe

01:07:24.280 with

01:07:24.580 quite

01:07:24.800 often

01:07:25.060 in

01:07:25.240 discussions

01:07:25.700 and

01:07:25.960 debates

01:07:26.320 so

01:07:26.520 you

01:07:26.660 say

01:07:27.900 that

01:07:28.180 this

01:07:28.540 is

01:07:28.660 happening

01:07:28.900 but

01:07:29.060 what

01:07:29.240 about

01:07:29.460 the

01:07:29.660 crusades

01:07:30.240 there's

01:07:30.740 been

01:07:30.900 this

01:07:31.060 transformation

01:07:31.520 but

01:07:31.860 really

01:07:32.140 what

01:07:32.380 it

01:07:32.500 sounds

01:07:32.700 like

01:07:32.880 to

01:07:33.020 me

01:07:33.260 is

01:07:35.720 successful

01:07:36.200 set

01:07:36.740 of

01:07:37.140 invasions

01:07:38.360 or

01:07:38.500 whatever

01:07:38.700 you might

01:07:39.040 call it

01:07:39.520 it was

01:07:40.260 really

01:07:40.500 over the

01:07:41.040 course

01:07:41.280 of those

01:07:41.880 several

01:07:42.400 centuries

01:07:42.820 basically

01:07:43.820 a failure

01:07:44.280 ultimately

01:07:44.840 right

01:07:45.120 it's a

01:07:45.740 weird blip

01:07:46.280 yeah

01:07:47.240 ultimately

01:07:47.860 yeah

01:07:48.800 yes

01:07:50.020 it's a

01:07:51.300 weird

01:07:51.780 aberration

01:07:52.400 in the

01:07:53.060 longer

01:07:53.400 history

01:07:53.960 of

01:07:54.620 of that

01:07:56.920 region

01:07:57.280 really

01:07:57.800 and

01:07:58.660 to go

01:07:59.620 back to

01:08:00.020 a point

01:08:00.440 you guys

01:08:00.920 pressed

01:08:01.380 earlier

01:08:01.700 on

01:08:02.080 yeah

01:08:02.380 if the

01:08:02.680 first

01:08:02.880 crusade

01:08:03.320 in 1099

01:08:03.940 had gone

01:08:04.460 another way

01:08:05.020 we

01:08:05.220 wouldn't

01:08:05.700 be sitting

01:08:06.020 here

01:08:06.180 talking

01:08:06.440 about

01:08:06.640 something

01:08:07.560 else

01:08:07.880 and I

01:08:08.120 would

01:08:08.220 be

01:08:08.360 enjoying

01:08:08.600 that

01:08:08.800 as

01:08:08.960 well

01:08:09.120 but

01:08:09.300 we

01:08:09.700 wouldn't

01:08:09.820 be

01:08:09.940 talking

01:08:10.140 about

01:08:10.360 this

01:08:10.620 I

01:08:10.820 don't

01:08:11.020 think

01:08:11.340 and

01:08:12.900 part

01:08:13.180 of

01:08:13.300 those

01:08:13.680 problems

01:08:14.740 are

01:08:15.160 basically

01:08:16.580 structural

01:08:17.400 that it's

01:08:17.920 like

01:08:18.160 it's

01:08:18.480 very

01:08:19.500 difficult

01:08:19.900 terrain

01:08:20.320 very

01:08:20.640 far

01:08:21.020 away

01:08:21.480 very

01:08:22.960 expensive

01:08:23.520 and there's

01:08:23.940 a draining

01:08:24.620 of political

01:08:25.340 will

01:08:25.820 and

01:08:26.260 financial

01:08:27.040 economic

01:08:27.720 will

01:08:28.220 to support

01:08:29.020 these

01:08:30.400 places

01:08:30.920 there's

01:08:33.340 the fact

01:08:34.940 that

01:08:35.240 from

01:08:35.680 the

01:08:35.880 papacy

01:08:36.220 of

01:08:36.340 innocent

01:08:36.540 the

01:08:36.760 third

01:08:37.000 onwards

01:08:37.440 crusading

01:08:38.520 is abused

01:08:39.260 by popes

01:08:40.060 until

01:08:40.400 by the time

01:08:40.960 you're in the 14th century

01:08:42.100 you know

01:08:42.900 when you have a papal schism

01:08:45.260 so there are two

01:08:45.960 and sometimes three

01:08:46.720 popes

01:08:47.180 anyone fighting

01:08:48.360 any war

01:08:48.940 against anyone

01:08:49.560 in the west

01:08:50.200 can just like

01:08:50.920 ring up the pope

01:08:52.060 as it were

01:08:52.660 hey

01:08:53.740 can this be a crusade

01:08:55.180 sure

01:08:55.580 and so you've got

01:08:56.760 kind of

01:08:57.440 little petty

01:08:58.840 wars

01:08:59.480 between

01:08:59.840 Christian

01:09:00.460 kingdoms

01:09:01.420 in the

01:09:02.100 Iberian peninsula

01:09:04.920 and both sides

01:09:05.740 have got their pope

01:09:06.440 to call it a crusade

01:09:07.540 crusading

01:09:09.380 starts to become

01:09:10.320 so ubiquitous

01:09:12.320 that it's almost

01:09:12.960 meaningless

01:09:13.460 that's not to say

01:09:15.120 that the dream

01:09:15.980 dies

01:09:16.780 actually the dream

01:09:18.640 persists

01:09:19.560 increasingly a fantasy

01:09:21.720 but the dream

01:09:22.420 persists

01:09:23.060 so that

01:09:24.080 you know

01:09:25.280 throughout the 14th century

01:09:26.360 I mean

01:09:26.760 you start to see

01:09:28.060 the rise of the Ottomans

01:09:29.120 as the kind of

01:09:30.060 chief Islamic power

01:09:31.360 in the eastern Mediterranean

01:09:32.560 there's a

01:09:35.700 menace

01:09:36.700 to the

01:09:37.040 Christian states

01:09:37.880 in the Balkans

01:09:38.620 there are

01:09:40.140 repeated

01:09:40.920 attempts

01:09:41.780 to raise

01:09:43.960 kind of

01:09:44.480 multinational

01:09:45.200 Christian armies

01:09:46.160 and take them

01:09:46.760 to the east

01:09:47.420 and to sort of

01:09:48.800 hold back

01:09:49.700 the Ottomans

01:09:51.260 as it were

01:09:51.720 and

01:09:53.420 the legacy

01:09:55.220 of that

01:09:55.720 is still

01:09:56.460 sort of

01:09:57.020 dimly

01:09:57.600 maybe not

01:09:58.560 dimly imprinted

01:09:59.380 on the Balkans

01:09:59.980 today

01:10:00.300 again

01:10:01.740 you're old enough

01:10:02.280 to remember

01:10:02.600 the Yugoslavian

01:10:04.660 wars of the

01:10:05.220 late 20th

01:10:06.400 early 21st century

01:10:07.280 Broadway's smash hit

01:10:11.660 the Neil Diamond

01:10:12.420 musical

01:10:12.960 A Beautiful Noise

01:10:14.320 is coming to Toronto

01:10:15.800 the true story

01:10:16.840 of a kid from Brooklyn

01:10:17.900 destined for something more

01:10:19.440 featuring all the songs

01:10:20.580 you love

01:10:21.200 including America

01:10:22.300 Forever in Blue Jeans

01:10:23.660 and Sweet Caroline

01:10:24.860 like Jersey Boys

01:10:26.300 and Beautiful

01:10:26.920 the next musical

01:10:28.100 mega hit is here

01:10:29.220 the Neil Diamond

01:10:30.180 musical

01:10:30.740 A Beautiful Noise

01:10:31.980 now through June 7th

01:10:33.420 2026

01:10:34.200 at the Princess of Wales

01:10:35.660 Theatre

01:10:36.100 get tickets at

01:10:37.040 murbush.com

01:10:38.280 where was I going with that

01:10:43.120 impact of the

01:10:45.920 Crusades

01:10:46.340 is the sense

01:10:46.800 I was going with that

01:10:47.080 oh sure right

01:10:47.580 so

01:10:47.760 but the

01:10:48.780 the dream persists

01:10:50.020 so you have

01:10:50.760 well into the

01:10:53.040 15th century

01:10:53.680 arguably

01:10:54.160 well no

01:10:54.760 definitely

01:10:55.380 into the 16th century

01:10:56.940 great kings

01:10:58.860 like of England

01:10:59.660 like Henry V

01:11:00.560 even Henry V

01:11:01.540 believing that

01:11:03.260 if the conditions

01:11:04.480 are propitious

01:11:05.420 and they just sort of

01:11:07.160 get their kind of

01:11:07.920 house in order

01:11:08.540 at home

01:11:08.960 then they will

01:11:09.740 go on crusade

01:11:10.800 and this idea

01:11:11.680 that we'll take

01:11:12.260 Jerusalem becomes

01:11:13.920 or remains

01:11:15.220 at any rate

01:11:15.760 probably becomes

01:11:17.440 rather than remains

01:11:18.220 this dream

01:11:20.340 the ultimate

01:11:21.200 sort of goal

01:11:22.180 is to

01:11:24.680 take back

01:11:25.600 Jerusalem

01:11:25.980 in the Christian hands

01:11:26.720 such that even in 1917

01:11:28.420 Jerusalem fall

01:11:32.380 the Ottomans

01:11:33.260 Jerusalem falls

01:11:35.300 and Allenby goes

01:11:36.280 into Jerusalem

01:11:36.900 there's instructions

01:11:38.040 do not

01:11:39.180 call this

01:11:40.260 the last

01:11:41.400 crusade

01:11:42.320 what do the papers

01:11:43.500 say

01:11:43.940 the last crusade

01:11:45.580 and now

01:11:47.180 I mean

01:11:47.540 all the politics

01:11:49.400 of that region

01:11:49.840 have obviously changed

01:11:50.700 but the idea

01:11:51.540 of the crusade

01:11:52.260 is still imprinted

01:11:53.300 on the minds

01:11:53.940 of

01:11:54.260 lots of people

01:11:56.280 in the world

01:11:57.360 today

01:11:57.580 and it's not just

01:11:58.220 the crusade

01:11:58.760 against

01:11:59.220 diesel engines

01:12:01.060 or litter

01:12:02.100 or whatever

01:12:03.140 you see it

01:12:06.220 in the

01:12:07.120 manifestos

01:12:08.420 of people

01:12:08.880 like

01:12:09.500 Anders Brafik

01:12:10.840 is a good example

01:12:11.680 Norwegian mass murderer

01:12:12.940 you see it

01:12:14.920 repeatedly

01:12:15.540 I mean

01:12:16.020 when ISIS

01:12:16.840 Daesh

01:12:19.000 whatever you want

01:12:19.640 to call them

01:12:20.160 were at their

01:12:21.280 most

01:12:21.960 powerful

01:12:24.740 I suppose

01:12:25.680 during the

01:12:26.340 Syrian

01:12:29.980 Iraqi

01:12:30.460 crisis

01:12:31.260 a few years

01:12:32.940 ago

01:12:33.280 everything

01:12:34.320 is framed

01:12:35.020 propaganda

01:12:35.840 is framed

01:12:36.520 in terms

01:12:37.120 of the

01:12:37.400 crusades

01:12:37.960 I remember

01:12:39.460 being

01:12:40.020 I tell this

01:12:41.240 story in the

01:12:41.760 book I read

01:12:42.100 about the

01:12:42.320 crusades

01:12:42.600 in 19

01:12:43.120 just after

01:12:44.480 I finished

01:12:45.020 writing my

01:12:45.640 book about

01:12:46.000 the crusades

01:12:46.780 Easter

01:12:47.180 2019

01:12:47.660 I went

01:12:48.020 on holiday

01:12:48.400 to Sri Lanka

01:12:48.900 with my

01:12:49.220 family

01:12:49.560 and

01:12:52.140 we were

01:12:53.420 due to

01:12:54.000 stay

01:12:54.240 in a hotel

01:12:54.760 in Colombo

01:12:55.440 on Easter

01:12:56.540 Monday

01:12:57.340 the day

01:12:57.940 before we

01:12:58.260 came home

01:12:58.880 and on Easter

01:12:59.600 Sunday

01:13:00.020 I took a

01:13:00.460 tuk-tuk

01:13:00.840 through

01:13:01.120 Hikadua

01:13:01.680 a little

01:13:01.980 surf town

01:13:02.500 on Sri Lanka

01:13:03.360 south coast

01:13:04.040 and the

01:13:04.800 tuk-tuk

01:13:05.000 driver

01:13:05.280 turned around

01:13:06.040 and said

01:13:06.340 hey

01:13:06.560 you hear

01:13:06.780 what happened

01:13:07.040 in Colombo

01:13:07.540 no I didn't

01:13:08.240 hear

01:13:08.480 he goes

01:13:08.920 suicide bombers

01:13:09.880 blew up a load

01:13:10.460 of hotels

01:13:11.000 and churches

01:13:12.220 killed hundreds

01:13:13.020 of people

01:13:13.380 tell me friend

01:13:14.900 did they

01:13:15.360 grow up the

01:13:15.680 Shangri-la

01:13:16.120 so had

01:13:19.420 I been

01:13:19.920 one day

01:13:20.520 away from

01:13:21.440 my booking

01:13:22.640 for Easter

01:13:22.960 Sunday

01:13:23.300 rather than

01:13:23.660 Easter

01:13:23.820 Monday

01:13:24.160 I might

01:13:24.720 well have

01:13:24.960 been sitting

01:13:25.220 with my

01:13:25.500 kids

01:13:25.780 in the

01:13:26.540 breakfast

01:13:26.780 room

01:13:26.980 when suicide

01:13:27.480 bombers

01:13:27.800 blew up

01:13:28.160 that particular

01:13:28.640 hotel

01:13:29.080 only telling

01:13:29.920 this story

01:13:30.420 because when

01:13:31.380 the offshoot

01:13:32.140 of Al-Qaeda

01:13:32.700 ISIS put

01:13:34.080 out their

01:13:34.680 statement

01:13:36.860 claiming

01:13:37.240 responsibility

01:13:37.780 for it

01:13:38.420 they said

01:13:38.700 we attacked

01:13:39.420 crusaders

01:13:40.360 celebrating

01:13:40.960 their infidel

01:13:41.540 holiday

01:13:41.980 so the idea

01:13:44.140 that I mean

01:13:44.680 I would have

01:13:45.140 definitely

01:13:45.580 counted in

01:13:46.360 the minds

01:13:46.780 of the

01:13:47.120 suicide

01:13:47.460 bomber

01:13:47.720 on that

01:13:48.080 day

01:13:48.280 as a

01:13:48.720 crusader

01:13:49.280 so would

01:13:51.140 my

01:13:51.380 young

01:13:52.140 daughters

01:13:52.520 at that

01:13:52.880 time

01:13:53.260 so my

01:13:55.200 point is

01:13:55.560 that the

01:13:56.060 not just

01:13:57.560 the idiomatic

01:13:58.360 use of

01:13:58.960 crusading

01:13:59.480 but the

01:14:00.220 kind of

01:14:01.520 this idea

01:14:02.160 that this

01:14:02.980 is

01:14:03.160 I made a

01:14:03.960 joke about

01:14:04.300 the hundred

01:14:04.520 years war

01:14:04.940 not being

01:14:05.280 over earlier

01:14:05.920 well

01:14:06.500 the idea

01:14:08.480 that the

01:14:08.760 crusades

01:14:09.160 aren't over

01:14:09.620 is much

01:14:10.200 more serious

01:14:10.720 because it

01:14:11.400 is there

01:14:12.220 in the

01:14:12.500 minds

01:14:12.780 of lots

01:14:13.540 of people

01:14:13.760 today

01:14:14.080 it's so

01:14:14.760 interesting

01:14:15.200 how it's

01:14:15.860 because you

01:14:16.880 tell the

01:14:17.380 story

01:14:17.840 and the

01:14:18.660 story

01:14:19.260 fascinating

01:14:20.160 though it

01:14:20.540 is

01:14:20.800 as Constantine

01:14:21.400 said

01:14:21.640 seems one

01:14:22.680 of failure

01:14:23.420 it's actually

01:14:24.160 quite grubby

01:14:25.200 it's not

01:14:26.580 particularly

01:14:27.260 heroic

01:14:27.900 but it

01:14:29.200 has passed

01:14:30.140 into legend

01:14:30.980 and it's not

01:14:32.100 just passed

01:14:32.660 into legend

01:14:33.380 in the

01:14:34.640 Christian world

01:14:35.360 but it's also

01:14:35.820 the Islamic

01:14:36.440 world as

01:14:37.080 well

01:14:37.380 and the word

01:14:38.740 crusade

01:14:39.620 when you think

01:14:40.220 about crusaders

01:14:41.240 it conjures

01:14:42.940 up an

01:14:43.320 image

01:14:43.800 to the

01:14:44.720 point

01:14:45.080 where you

01:14:45.480 go and

01:14:45.900 watch

01:14:46.180 England

01:14:46.580 in a

01:14:46.980 world cup

01:14:47.480 final

01:14:47.840 there's

01:14:48.540 people

01:14:48.880 dressed up

01:14:49.440 as

01:14:49.580 crusaders

01:14:50.160 and I

01:14:50.560 never got

01:14:51.000 it

01:14:51.100 but now

01:14:51.360 I think

01:14:51.620 misery

01:14:52.120 and failure

01:14:52.680 of course

01:14:53.700 that's your

01:14:54.780 connection

01:14:55.140 I don't think

01:14:56.500 they might

01:14:57.140 agree

01:14:57.440 and I

01:14:58.680 wouldn't say

01:14:59.040 it to their

01:14:59.380 faces

01:14:59.600 well I

01:15:00.920 remember

01:15:01.160 now

01:15:01.360 I remember

01:15:01.700 being on

01:15:02.540 holiday

01:15:02.860 in a

01:15:04.020 I forget

01:15:06.420 which holiday

01:15:07.160 destination it

01:15:07.820 was but I

01:15:08.080 was in a

01:15:08.300 water park

01:15:08.800 it had so

01:15:09.740 many fancy

01:15:10.300 holidays

01:15:10.640 what can I

01:15:12.420 say

01:15:12.640 the books

01:15:12.940 are selling

01:15:13.240 well

01:15:13.540 it was

01:15:15.000 water slides

01:15:15.980 my kids

01:15:17.300 and I

01:15:17.460 like

01:15:17.620 water slides

01:15:18.100 and there

01:15:18.640 was somebody

01:15:19.060 an English

01:15:20.040 guy on

01:15:20.640 holiday abroad

01:15:21.320 and beneath

01:15:21.880 the scarlet

01:15:24.180 red of the

01:15:24.660 sunburn

01:15:25.120 you could

01:15:25.500 make out

01:15:26.060 a Templar

01:15:27.060 warrior

01:15:27.980 with a

01:15:29.240 red cross

01:15:30.080 and the

01:15:30.560 tunic

01:15:30.880 and the

01:15:31.200 sword

01:15:31.540 aloft

01:15:32.020 and some

01:15:32.400 sort of

01:15:32.620 deus vault

01:15:33.160 type

01:15:33.600 slogan

01:15:35.240 and I

01:15:37.000 said

01:15:37.240 I might

01:15:38.300 go and

01:15:38.580 explain to

01:15:39.000 the dude

01:15:39.280 that the

01:15:39.620 Templars

01:15:39.920 are actually

01:15:40.300 basically

01:15:40.640 culturally

01:15:41.080 French

01:15:41.600 and I

01:15:42.080 was heavily

01:15:42.600 dissuaded

01:15:43.140 from doing

01:15:43.600 that

01:15:43.880 my point

01:15:44.600 is that

01:15:45.020 yeah

01:15:45.200 a lot

01:15:45.800 of the

01:15:45.960 iconography

01:15:46.660 of

01:15:47.120 crusading

01:15:47.940 has been

01:15:49.120 adopted

01:15:50.220 by people

01:15:51.220 who fancy

01:15:52.960 that they

01:15:53.600 share an

01:15:54.260 interest

01:15:54.720 with what

01:15:55.040 they imagine

01:15:55.640 crusading

01:15:56.160 was all

01:15:56.540 about

01:15:56.920 and that

01:16:01.080 that's

01:16:01.460 yeah

01:16:02.540 like

01:16:03.140 and it

01:16:03.660 occurs

01:16:04.340 on

01:16:04.760 both

01:16:05.760 sides

01:16:06.780 but

01:16:07.020 there are

01:16:08.180 elements

01:16:08.640 whenever

01:16:09.120 history

01:16:10.360 sort of

01:16:11.040 generates

01:16:13.220 legend

01:16:13.700 it often

01:16:14.600 creates

01:16:15.200 things that

01:16:16.240 are picturesque

01:16:17.160 that you

01:16:17.960 can shut

01:16:18.520 your eyes

01:16:18.780 and think

01:16:19.040 you can

01:16:19.320 imagine

01:16:19.700 and

01:16:21.140 those

01:16:21.920 are

01:16:22.120 always

01:16:24.080 very

01:16:24.340 attractive

01:16:24.920 as

01:16:26.440 analogies

01:16:27.880 as symbols

01:16:28.460 as memes

01:16:29.160 particularly

01:16:30.920 in the

01:16:31.320 world

01:16:31.520 you know

01:16:31.800 the image

01:16:32.500 driven

01:16:32.840 meme world

01:16:33.480 we live in

01:16:33.960 today

01:16:34.260 and so

01:16:34.760 you know

01:16:34.980 I mentioned

01:16:35.300 Deus Vult

01:16:35.880 the idea

01:16:36.240 of the

01:16:36.460 Templar

01:16:36.800 holding

01:16:37.080 the sword

01:16:37.800 aloft

01:16:38.180 you see

01:16:38.840 that

01:16:39.080 shared

01:16:40.080 must be

01:16:41.080 shared

01:16:41.320 hundreds

01:16:41.740 of thousands

01:16:42.220 maybe millions

01:16:42.940 of times

01:16:43.460 every week

01:16:44.080 online

01:16:45.280 as a sort

01:16:46.280 of rallying

01:16:47.080 image

01:16:47.540 for people

01:16:48.140 today

01:16:48.780 who have

01:16:49.620 particular

01:16:50.120 ideas

01:16:50.700 about

01:16:50.980 relationships

01:16:51.640 between

01:16:52.960 Christians

01:16:53.560 and Muslims

01:16:54.100 in their own

01:16:55.260 countries

01:16:55.660 or internationally

01:16:56.600 and

01:16:57.780 the

01:17:00.260 minute

01:17:01.480 you start

01:17:02.760 to dig

01:17:03.060 into the

01:17:03.440 history

01:17:03.700 you see

01:17:03.960 that

01:17:04.100 yeah

01:17:04.280 there's

01:17:05.860 one view

01:17:06.380 that this

01:17:06.840 is just

01:17:07.120 a whole

01:17:07.540 failure

01:17:08.400 and a

01:17:08.780 mess

01:17:09.060 and if

01:17:09.320 you're

01:17:09.520 dumb

01:17:09.740 enough

01:17:10.020 to

01:17:10.280 share

01:17:12.360 a picture

01:17:13.200 of a

01:17:13.420 Templar

01:17:13.760 holding

01:17:14.060 a sword

01:17:14.540 and think

01:17:14.900 that it

01:17:15.180 stands

01:17:15.500 for

01:17:15.820 the

01:17:16.760 great

01:17:18.160 resilience

01:17:18.680 of

01:17:19.260 Christian

01:17:20.140 civilisation

01:17:20.940 you want

01:17:21.320 to ask

01:17:21.580 yourself

01:17:21.800 what happened

01:17:22.240 to the

01:17:22.460 Templars

01:17:22.900 between

01:17:23.340 1307

01:17:24.040 and

01:17:24.200 1314

01:17:24.800 which

01:17:25.140 they were

01:17:25.380 turned

01:17:25.680 on

01:17:25.940 by the

01:17:26.360 Christian

01:17:26.760 kings

01:17:27.000 and

01:17:27.160 burned

01:17:27.680 and

01:17:28.660 accused

01:17:29.000 of

01:17:29.180 heresy

01:17:29.560 and so

01:17:29.940 perhaps

01:17:30.340 not your

01:17:30.880 best

01:17:31.380 model

01:17:32.740 for

01:17:33.160 the

01:17:34.040 kind

01:17:34.260 of

01:17:34.400 resilience

01:17:34.840 and

01:17:35.160 unity

01:17:35.480 of the

01:17:35.760 Christian

01:17:36.000 world

01:17:36.300 in the

01:17:36.540 face

01:17:36.780 of

01:17:37.000 Islamic

01:17:37.340 assault

01:17:37.720 it was

01:17:37.980 just like

01:17:38.540 French

01:17:39.580 on

01:17:39.740 French

01:17:40.000 violence

01:17:40.560 but that

01:17:42.300 you know

01:17:42.720 what's not

01:17:43.360 to like

01:17:43.740 I think

01:17:46.280 you're very

01:17:46.580 down on the

01:17:47.020 French

01:17:47.280 we are just

01:17:49.860 comedically speaking

01:17:50.840 we have to be

01:17:51.560 Dan it's been an absolute pleasure

01:17:52.960 one thing we haven't talked about

01:17:54.640 perhaps we'll do another time

01:17:55.700 is your new book about

01:17:56.500 Henry V

01:17:57.060 who's a monarch about whom I actually know nothing

01:17:59.680 whatsoever

01:18:00.120 do you mate?

01:18:01.000 I've seen the play

01:18:01.740 but that's about it

01:18:02.660 something

01:18:03.420 well I mean

01:18:04.260 Henry V

01:18:04.700 even on his last military campaign

01:18:05.900 was reading

01:18:06.440 Chronicles of the First Crusade

01:18:08.600 he himself fancied being a crusader

01:18:10.480 so

01:18:11.140 it's all connected

01:18:12.240 well I look forward to reading it

01:18:13.900 thanks so much for coming in

01:18:15.100 we're going to go to

01:18:15.940 Substack for questions from our audience

01:18:17.880 before we do

01:18:18.680 as you know

01:18:19.560 the last question we always ask is

01:18:21.040 what's the one thing we're not talking about

01:18:22.880 as a society

01:18:23.800 that you think we should be?

01:18:24.980 I was thinking you were going to ask

01:18:26.420 does he have the

01:18:27.380 Knights Templar tattooed on his chest?

01:18:29.620 he's got everything else

01:18:30.520 no but I've been to

01:18:31.580 Razuk Tattoo in Jerusalem

01:18:32.980 which is supposedly

01:18:34.820 the oldest tattoo shop in Jerusalem

01:18:38.040 they claim to date back to the 14th century

01:18:40.500 and they do pilgrim tattoos

01:18:42.060 and this is a sort of 500 year old

01:18:46.280 the fragment of the stamp

01:18:47.280 and they do it broadly speaking

01:18:48.800 with the same method

01:18:49.440 that pilgrims have been getting tattooed in Jerusalem

01:18:51.100 not that I went as a pilgrim

01:18:52.260 I went as a historian

01:18:53.060 but I just like tattoos

01:18:54.080 so I got tattooed there

01:18:55.020 I don't know

01:18:56.160 like I feel like I've spent a lot of the time

01:18:58.740 in this last hour or so

01:19:00.480 like attacking the premises of your questions

01:19:02.600 you have

01:19:03.160 yeah

01:19:03.400 and I'm going to do that again

01:19:04.640 because this whole notion

01:19:05.780 that what's the thing we're not talking about

01:19:08.580 is like you're deliberately misunderstanding

01:19:10.720 like we started off talking about

01:19:12.600 the communications revolution

01:19:13.920 it's just slagging us off for no reason now

01:19:16.140 we haven't done anything wrong

01:19:18.240 this is where we began

01:19:19.000 I'm not slagging you

01:19:20.140 I'm disagreeing with you

01:19:21.200 and that's an important difference

01:19:23.120 go on go on

01:19:24.860 tell us why we're wrong

01:19:26.020 where I think you're wrong

01:19:27.780 and I think you're slightly cynically

01:19:29.540 sort of like clickbaiting people

01:19:31.660 and I understand why

01:19:32.580 because there's a commercial imperative

01:19:33.760 is to say that

01:19:35.140 there are

01:19:36.140 but we're being honest here

01:19:38.160 I'm sorry we're being honest

01:19:38.940 you've interviewed my mentor David Starkey

01:19:41.100 and he too would be honest with you

01:19:42.420 and if you sat back

01:19:43.360 yeah he'd be very fucking honest

01:19:44.440 yeah

01:19:44.760 so honest

01:19:45.440 if I'm being honest with you

01:19:47.280 if I learned anything from David

01:19:48.500 it's this

01:19:49.060 there is nothing under God's

01:19:52.000 like beady eye

01:19:54.460 that is not being discussed

01:19:55.840 right now

01:19:56.820 on the internet

01:19:57.540 so this idea

01:19:58.420 that we live in this age

01:19:59.680 of sort of information control

01:20:01.000 which are the things

01:20:01.740 we really need to talk about

01:20:02.720 aren't being talked about

01:20:03.500 is bollocks

01:20:04.780 everything's being talked about

01:20:06.360 the difficulty of navigating

01:20:07.940 the modern world

01:20:08.820 is finding out what's important

01:20:11.420 and what's not important

01:20:12.160 so I don't have an answer for you

01:20:14.260 I think we've talked a lot

01:20:15.500 and I've really enjoyed it as well

01:20:16.640 and what I do want to say

01:20:18.720 so maybe here's my answer

01:20:20.700 what's not done enough

01:20:24.560 is disagreement in a civil manner

01:20:28.740 and we began our conversation off camera

01:20:32.020 talking about how the idea between debate

01:20:35.220 and how discussion has moved

01:20:39.460 in the course of my lifetime

01:20:40.620 from debate to polemic

01:20:43.220 and people are either sort of violently agreeing

01:20:44.960 with each other

01:20:45.500 or just talking over the top of each other

01:20:47.020 and one thing I've enjoyed

01:20:47.900 in part today

01:20:49.680 is to be able to disagree with you guys

01:20:51.760 in like a friendly and constructive manner

01:20:55.340 so thank you for having me on your show

01:20:56.800 thank you very much

01:20:57.680 and go fuck yourself

01:20:58.460 no

01:21:00.760 I enjoyed talking to you

01:21:02.440 forget this

01:21:04.420 I had to do that

01:21:05.260 just for the comedic effect

01:21:06.340 but actually

01:21:07.000 we always love having people like you

01:21:09.800 who've got a very strong set of opinions

01:21:11.820 who are not going to agree for the sake of agreeing

01:21:14.840 and who recognize

01:21:15.780 that actually some of the best insights

01:21:17.500 I think happen

01:21:18.120 when people are happy to have their own opinion

01:21:21.200 and they're not offended by difference

01:21:23.180 yeah but here's the thing

01:21:24.080 it's like

01:21:24.680 and it's bad for business

01:21:26.300 and I'm serious about that

01:21:27.320 because what's more and more evident

01:21:29.640 is that

01:21:30.420 because the way that

01:21:32.440 information and discussion

01:21:34.300 is commercialized now

01:21:35.780 it relies on extremity

01:21:38.920 rather than agreement

01:21:39.900 right

01:21:40.500 I disagree with that

01:21:41.560 I mean look

01:21:42.000 our channel has

01:21:43.000 1.2 million subscribers

01:21:45.200 as this is going out

01:21:46.180 yeah

01:21:46.540 well

01:21:46.940 first time we mentioned it

01:21:48.180 on the table

01:21:48.900 yeah

01:21:49.240 we're doing pretty well

01:21:50.860 and the reason that

01:21:52.100 like all the feedback that we get

01:21:53.940 when people come up to us in the street

01:21:55.240 or email in is

01:21:56.140 I love the fact that you talk to different voices

01:21:58.460 and you let people speak

01:21:59.900 and you only

01:22:00.720 and look by the way

01:22:01.520 we've had robust debates with people on the show

01:22:03.760 but it's when we actually disagree

01:22:05.760 like if there's a genuine disagreement

01:22:07.940 about things that we both feel strongly

01:22:10.320 and we are confident enough

01:22:11.680 that we know enough to disagree on

01:22:13.200 I'd go toe-to-toe with you for an hour

01:22:15.540 in this context

01:22:16.560 you're the expert

01:22:17.360 I want to hear what you think

01:22:18.480 and if you want to pick away

01:22:19.400 at the foundations of our questions

01:22:20.640 that makes for a more entertaining show

01:22:22.160 for everybody else

01:22:22.860 so I think actually

01:22:24.340 you're 100% right

01:22:26.620 which is

01:22:27.580 stop there

01:22:28.180 no no

01:22:28.980 no we're not going to stop there

01:22:30.100 because I can't end on agreement

01:22:31.260 there is a model

01:22:34.260 for content creation

01:22:36.280 which is

01:22:37.280 you get the craziest people

01:22:39.220 from both sides

01:22:40.140 in a room together

01:22:41.020 and you let

01:22:42.060 it's a kind of modern

01:22:43.100 bear baiting type of situation

01:22:44.700 it's a freak show

01:22:45.820 it's a freak show

01:22:46.680 but also

01:22:47.980 there is

01:22:49.240 always something

01:22:50.440 to go against

01:22:51.400 with that model

01:22:52.160 if people are doing that

01:22:53.320 other people

01:22:54.440 are going to crave

01:22:55.100 the opposite of that

01:22:55.960 which is this

01:22:56.620 and that's why

01:22:58.020 we've had

01:22:58.580 the moderate levels

01:22:59.720 of success

01:23:00.180 that we've had

01:23:01.560 is because

01:23:02.380 we do actually

01:23:03.240 want to have a discussion

01:23:04.580 and if there is a disagreement

01:23:05.720 we'll explore it

01:23:06.580 but ultimately

01:23:07.340 it is about

01:23:08.460 finding out

01:23:09.320 what your opinion is

01:23:10.200 and you know

01:23:10.700 it's been a great pleasure

01:23:11.660 having you on the show

01:23:12.240 for that reason

01:23:12.720 yeah

01:23:13.060 thank you

01:23:13.440 so head on over

01:23:15.220 to Substack

01:23:15.840 we're going to ask

01:23:16.700 Dan your questions

01:23:18.040 and he's going to pick

01:23:19.080 at the premises

01:23:19.640 of your questions

01:23:20.420 as well

01:23:20.800 so you're going to see

01:23:21.740 what it feels like

01:23:22.560 it's not nice

01:23:23.380 did the children's crusade

01:23:28.940 have its own

01:23:29.480 Greta Thunberg figure

01:23:30.700 or was it all

01:23:31.980 led by adults

01:23:33.020 what was the scene

01:23:33.920 back in the day

01:23:34.640 during the crusades

01:23:35.500 with regard to

01:23:36.180 Christian conversion

01:23:37.160 throughout the

01:23:37.860 western world

01:23:38.720 we're going to see

01:23:52.880 our next time

01:23:57.120 we're going to see

01:23:59.180 Compétences Canada Ontario

01:24:00.900 s'accompagne

01:24:01.580 avec des programmes

01:24:02.260 dynamiques

01:24:02.820 et des compétitions

01:24:03.640 qui t'ouvrent des portes

01:24:04.720 vers plein d'opportunités

01:24:06.080 découvre le métier

01:24:07.520 qui te passionne

01:24:08.380 and leave your mark in your community.

01:24:10.880 For more information, skillsontario.com

01:24:13.780 and start building your future from today.

TRIGGERnometry - March 05, 2025

The Truth about the Crusades - Dan Jones

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