TRIGGERnometry - The Truth About TRIGGERnometry

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00:00:15.560 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:18.460 I'm Francis Foster.

00:00:19.700 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:00:21.000 And a very warm welcome to our special first episode

00:00:24.200 from the new studio on the set you can see behind us.

00:00:27.180 We've done a great interview about all things to do with the past,

00:00:31.620 the present and the future of the show,

00:00:33.800 including talking about our personal lives

00:00:35.760 and some of the background to where the show comes from,

00:00:38.160 including Francis' worst ever gig.

00:00:40.560 And then at the back, I heard the word yid, yid, yid, yid.

00:00:45.980 And Constantine gets a little bit emotional.

00:00:49.080 It was the end of a very difficult 10 days.

00:00:52.300 And I went into my room when it got confirmed and I started crying.

00:00:55.500 We talk about the lowest lows and the highest highs in the history of the show.

00:01:00.140 Enjoy.

00:01:06.600 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:09.660 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:11.360 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:12.540 And welcome to our first interview in our brand new studio.

00:01:18.020 We're going to be doing things a little bit differently this week

00:01:20.280 because what we're going to be doing is interviewing each other

00:01:23.200 about the journey of trigonometry.

00:01:26.040 Indeed.

00:01:26.740 We're going to talk about where we've come from

00:01:28.860 and possibly where we're going as well.

00:01:30.920 But the first thing to say is apologies for these terrible moustaches.

00:01:34.520 We are raising money for Prostate Cancer UK.

00:01:37.660 The donation box will be there somewhere.

00:01:39.980 Anton will probably get it sorted by the time this goes out.

00:01:42.720 So if you can support this great cause, please do.

00:01:45.740 Because, you know, men need support.

00:01:47.620 Exactly.

00:01:48.400 Particularly white men.

00:01:49.840 Anyway.

00:01:50.520 Good.

00:01:50.980 Well done, mate.

00:01:52.560 But anyway, I've been looking forward to this.

00:01:55.720 I've been really looking forward to this because it's a chance.

00:01:58.640 It's therapy, isn't it?

00:02:00.160 Is it?

00:02:00.400 That's what this is.

00:02:00.980 Yeah, of course it is.

00:02:01.600 Okay, mate.

00:02:02.200 We're both on the couch.

00:02:03.520 You know, it'll appeal to you because it's free.

00:02:06.080 Anyway, I can't believe I said that.

00:02:08.280 Yeah, so we started.

00:02:09.480 I deliberately didn't laugh to make it awkward.

00:02:11.460 Yeah.

00:02:11.940 Well done.

00:02:12.460 Thank you very much.

00:02:13.380 Rather like my gig on Wednesday night.

00:02:14.920 Now, we started Trigonometry in 2018.

00:02:18.960 April 2018.

00:02:20.700 But I think one of the things that people don't really know is a lot of the background stuff.

00:02:25.460 Because, you know, we haven't talked about it very much.

00:02:27.980 But let's start with where we were before we started the show.

00:02:32.080 So you were a working comedian.

00:02:34.420 Yes.

00:02:34.760 Mostly hosting shows rather than doing sets.

00:02:37.340 You were doing sets as well.

00:02:38.260 But you focused on hosting shows at, you know, some of the best clubs in London, admittedly.

00:02:43.080 But you were performing there.

00:02:45.860 You weren't travelling so much around the country.

00:02:47.880 You weren't doing your own shows to your own audience, which neither of us had at the time.

00:02:52.860 What was that like?

00:02:54.480 It was, on the one hand, it was quite good.

00:02:57.260 Because I worked really hard to get to that point.

00:03:00.880 Comedy is fiercely competitive.

00:03:02.960 It's not fair.

00:03:03.960 So by hook or by crook, by working really hard, I got to the point where I was playing some of these really great clubs on a Friday and Saturday night to hundreds of people every night.

00:03:14.200 I was an emcee because there was a part of it that I really enjoyed.

00:03:18.460 It was unscripted, so you can be improvisational.

00:03:22.080 You can have fun with the audience.

00:03:23.440 No gig is ever the same.

00:03:25.260 It meant that I didn't have to travel.

00:03:27.260 But what it was, effectively, was a cul-de-sac.

00:03:30.240 And once in comedy, once you get pigeonholed as being an emcee or a host, that's really it.

00:03:36.260 You just get known as being an emcee, which is actually quite narrow-minded and stupid of the industry and the people in it.

00:03:43.760 Because some of the best comedians were emcees.

00:03:46.920 Daniel Kitson is a good example.

00:03:48.620 Michael McIntyre did a lot of emceeing.

00:03:51.080 So it's, at one point, ridiculous.

00:03:54.160 But also, that's what it was like.

00:03:56.180 But also, I would argue you pigeonholed yourself.

00:03:58.980 Wouldn't that be fair to say?

00:04:00.340 Because you kept doing these emceeing gigs.

00:04:02.720 It meant that you didn't have time to go out and try as much new material, to play in front of a different audience, stuff like that.

00:04:10.180 So I'd push back on that.

00:04:11.760 And the reason I'd push back on that is because I don't come from a wealthy family, which means I had to earn money.

00:04:19.200 I'm not saying you were wrong to do it.

00:04:20.880 But what I mean is, I think partly the reason you ended up in that position is you put yourself in that position.

00:04:26.740 Maybe for very good reasons.

00:04:28.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:04:28.820 Look, it was for very good reasons.

00:04:31.860 But the reality is, comedy is a rich man's game.

00:04:35.680 It is.

00:04:36.380 Life is a rich man's game.

00:04:38.180 But particularly if you want to get ahead in the comedy industry, you've got to be able to go up to Edinburgh four or five times.

00:04:43.520 If you want to get noticed, really, you need to spend 10 grand a pop.

00:04:46.680 That was never an option for me.

00:04:48.220 I had to earn money.

00:04:50.160 But yeah, there was an element of that.

00:04:52.020 There was an element of that, of not wanting to travel.

00:04:55.620 And as a result, it was a shortcut.

00:04:58.240 But like all shortcuts, it inevitably leaves somewhere where you don't want to be.

00:05:03.420 Well, there's another part to your story.

00:05:05.360 Because not only were you doing, you were emceeing, hosting these shows six nights a week.

00:05:09.840 So you were there the whole night.

00:05:11.680 So basically every night, you're around rowdy, drunk people performing comedy.

00:05:16.280 And then, quite often, you would then go and do the radio overnight.

00:05:21.140 Yeah.

00:05:21.680 Right?

00:05:22.120 I did talk sport radio.

00:05:24.820 So I did two overnights at talk sport, which meant some days I would do a full day teaching.

00:05:31.160 Then I'd go and emcee a gig.

00:05:33.080 Sometimes emcee two gigs back to back.

00:05:35.520 And then I'd go and do overnight radio till about five in the morning.

00:05:39.400 Right.

00:05:39.500 And sometimes you'd do that, and then you'd go to bed.

00:05:43.380 Yeah.

00:05:43.680 And then you'd wake up, and you'd go and teach.

00:05:46.600 Yeah.

00:05:47.140 Because you were still a part-time teacher at this point.

00:05:49.340 Yeah.

00:05:49.620 So I'd go in, and I'd teach, and I was a part-time teacher.

00:05:52.900 Or I'd do breakfast shows at talk radio, where the cab came at half five, quarter past five.

00:06:00.380 And then you've got to be in the studio at half six.

00:06:03.960 And if you've been emceeing the night before, particularly if it's rowdy, you don't get to fall asleep till about two o'clock in the morning because you're all adrenalineed up out of your eyeballs.

00:06:13.680 Yeah.

00:06:14.020 It was relentless.

00:06:15.960 But that's what you've got to do in that industry if you want to succeed.

00:06:19.580 Or if you just want to survive.

00:06:21.220 Yeah.

00:06:21.580 If you want to survive.

00:06:22.780 Exactly.

00:06:23.840 And the problem with that particular model is that it's not sustainable.

00:06:28.760 You can't have a good life.

00:06:30.680 Your relationships suffer.

00:06:32.380 Your health suffers.

00:06:34.300 And I remember at one point, I got an eczema flare-up that's so bad that it looked like I had red blotches.

00:06:43.700 You know how AIDS patients at the end stage, they used to get something called...

00:06:47.360 Not really, mate.

00:06:48.280 ...carpozy sarcoma?

00:06:49.860 Yeah.

00:06:50.220 But that's what?

00:06:50.900 They were dark red blotches.

00:06:53.120 Dark red.

00:06:53.660 And I remember being on the tube because I was so run down and tired.

00:06:59.220 And there was this girl opposite me and she was looking at me and I'm like, oh, she likes me.

00:07:03.180 And no, she was just staring at my arm, which was covered with these red blotches.

00:07:06.200 She's going, oh, sexy, isn't it, it's patient?

00:07:08.040 Yeah, yeah.

00:07:09.120 And in fact...

00:07:10.040 Yum, yum, yum.

00:07:10.880 Exactly.

00:07:11.480 And in fact, it got so bad with my eczema on my skin and I was shedding skin.

00:07:16.600 This isn't probably what people tuned in for, that my girlfriend said to me, could you not sleep on my side of the bed?

00:07:23.820 Because that's how bad my skin was.

00:07:26.980 So I was really unwell.

00:07:29.100 I was working frenetically.

00:07:31.840 And also I was very frustrated because, you know, I would go to a gig, I would do very well.

00:07:37.380 But, you know, I was starting to open for people, but nobody in the industry wanted to sign me.

00:07:43.420 No one showed any attention whatsoever.

00:07:45.520 You were never going to be on TV.

00:07:46.980 I was never going to be on TV.

00:07:48.480 I was never going to have, in inverted commas, a mainstream career.

00:07:52.640 And it felt that I...

00:07:54.480 Why?

00:07:55.500 Why?

00:07:55.860 Because I was a straight white dude in his mid-30s at that point when the industry was all about diversity.

00:08:04.420 I was also as well, didn't have, didn't share the same political views as people in that industry.

00:08:09.780 You were fairly, you were fairly circumspect about that at that point.

00:08:13.960 Yeah.

00:08:14.140 Right?

00:08:14.540 You weren't expressing your political opinions openly, I think.

00:08:17.640 No, I wasn't expressing my political opinions openly.

00:08:20.140 But I didn't share, you know, the comedy industry's hyper-liberal attitudes to culture, to gender, to all these things.

00:08:28.720 Right?

00:08:28.880 And what's very interesting about that is when I was 18, 19, you could say that I had liberal slash even woke opinions.

00:08:37.200 But the way that the culture shifted was in the industry, I was sort of known as a small C conservative or conservative or right-leaning when I've never considered myself like that at all.

00:08:49.300 And I got really frustrated because I saw the hypocrisy and the bias within comedy where people who have left-wing liberal opinions will get platformed, will get given a chance to shine.

00:09:04.800 It doesn't matter how ridiculous these opinions are.

00:09:08.300 Right?

00:09:08.380 And you can see it, you know, right the way through the BBC.

00:09:11.640 You know, Frankie Ball's New World Order isn't really a comedy show.

00:09:14.980 It's more like a left-wing propaganda, you know, fanzine that you might find in the old school Soviet Union.

00:09:21.560 You know, with people sitting around and talking.

00:09:23.820 And the comedy industry says they want diversity.

00:09:26.900 They don't want diversity.

00:09:28.040 They want people of all races, genders and ages and colours to be on stage having the exact same opinion.

00:09:35.920 So here you are basically in the comedy industry, in a cul-de-sac creatively, in a cul-de-sac financially, in a cul-de-sac in every way.

00:09:43.340 Your health is going down the toilet.

00:09:45.620 You're barely sleeping.

00:09:47.060 You're doing overnight radio.

00:09:48.360 You're teaching.

00:09:49.560 And you're not really in love with teaching anymore, I think, at this point.

00:09:52.260 It's fair to say.

00:09:52.980 And then I come along and I'm like, hey, let's do a podcast that's going to get us cancelled.

00:09:59.220 Well, here's the thing.

00:10:00.840 I originally, you said, do you want to do a podcast?

00:10:03.480 And I was like, no, because I had a podcast.

00:10:05.500 It didn't work out.

00:10:06.600 It was very good.

00:10:07.220 But we were in our different ways for a multitude of reasons.

00:10:10.280 It just didn't work.

00:10:10.900 Well, people, given that we've had Nick on the show.

00:10:13.700 Yeah.

00:10:14.020 Right.

00:10:14.260 We might say that you did a podcast with Nick Dixon, one of our recent guests.

00:10:18.560 And it didn't work out because creatively you just didn't gel.

00:10:20.880 Yeah, exactly.

00:10:21.640 And so that happened.

00:10:24.040 And then I got offered a podcast with TalkSport.

00:10:28.140 We had a pilot.

00:10:28.940 And this is what's interesting.

00:10:30.080 This is what people don't know about radio and TV.

00:10:32.920 So we did a pilot for them.

00:10:34.520 And the guy and the head of TalkSport went, this is brilliant.

00:10:38.080 This is exactly what is needed in sports radio.

00:10:41.140 It's three comedians talking about comedy.

00:10:44.240 This is exactly what's needed.

00:10:46.020 He then gave us about a list of 12 changes, which we incorporated.

00:10:50.240 We gave him another version of the pilot.

00:10:52.420 And he went, no, I don't like it.

00:10:54.060 And that was it.

00:10:54.680 And that's what you're faced with in the industry, where you have great ideas and people at the top are fucking clueless and they've got no idea.

00:11:03.040 Now, of course, there's exceptions and there's people who have talent.

00:11:05.400 Of course there are.

00:11:06.040 But there's a lot of people in that industry, both from radio, all different types of broadcasting, who don't have a clue what they're doing.

00:11:16.180 And then there was this sense of frustration.

00:11:17.540 You went to me, do you want to do a podcast?

00:11:19.260 And I thought to myself, it's a lot of work.

00:11:22.780 It's a hell of a lot of work to do a podcast.

00:11:25.220 It's a hell of a lot of work to do a YouTube show.

00:11:27.280 If you're going to do it, you've got to be all in.

00:11:29.400 You've got to do it properly.

00:11:31.140 You've got to be consistent.

00:11:32.320 You've got to bring something new to the table as well.

00:11:35.660 This is what people don't realise.

00:11:37.300 When comedians release a comedy podcast, they're like, oh, why is no one listening to my comedy podcast?

00:11:42.280 It's funny.

00:11:42.720 Well, it may be funny, but what's different about it?

00:11:45.760 Are you just going to be another maker of jeans on the market?

00:11:48.660 Well, there's loads of people who make jeans.

00:11:50.380 What's different about your jeans?

00:11:52.560 So when we talked about trigonometry and you were saying to me, well, I think that this has got legs and whatever else,

00:12:01.460 because we're talking to people, interesting people, I thought to myself, actually, that's something different.

00:12:10.160 That's something that people can get on board with.

00:12:12.660 And as well, a watershed moment for me was a whole Brexit referendum where Brexit happened.

00:12:18.560 And then the next day I saw a whole cohort of people in my industry who now came out and thought it was acceptable to demonise, to mock, to smear people with different political opinions.

00:12:35.600 And not only that, and they would disagree with this, but it's true, they found it absolutely acceptable to be racist to white men, but particularly old white men.

00:12:46.320 And they would say things like, oh, what does it matter?

00:12:48.980 He's just an old white man.

00:12:50.500 And for you, that was particularly painful because you voted remain, but your dad, who is a straight old white man, presumably.

00:12:58.520 That's how he identifies.

00:12:59.740 He, him.

00:13:00.680 He, him.

00:13:01.760 He voted leave, I think, right?

00:13:03.480 Yeah, he voted leave.

00:13:04.280 And he's not someone who is in any way any of those things.

00:13:07.440 He's not racist.

00:13:08.320 He's not bigoted or whatever.

00:13:09.640 Yeah.

00:13:09.760 So to you, it was a very visceral reaction, I think.

00:13:12.360 Yeah.

00:13:12.900 And my dad married a woman of colour in the, my mother, who's Latin American.

00:13:18.340 Brown bird.

00:13:18.920 Brown bird, mate.

00:13:20.080 Fucking brown, fucking ethnic, right?

00:13:22.940 I can say it.

00:13:23.560 She's my mum.

00:13:24.280 Pronouns, she, her.

00:13:25.880 And when it wasn't cool in the 70s, when there was no Snapchat filter or, you know, hashtag mixed race or whatever,

00:13:33.840 all of these different things.

00:13:35.460 So this is not a man who's intolerant.

00:13:37.560 This is a man who doesn't like the-

00:13:41.240 Foreigners.

00:13:41.840 Yeah, exactly.

00:13:42.880 Different foreigners.

00:13:43.900 Do you know what I mean?

00:13:45.200 Just doesn't like Polish people, mate.

00:13:47.240 Exactly, mate.

00:13:48.100 Brown bird's good.

00:13:49.220 Poles are wrong.

00:13:50.160 No, who just disagreed with the politics of the European Union.

00:13:53.400 Right, right.

00:13:54.220 And which, to me, is a perfectly legitimate political position.

00:13:57.480 So, Mike, what I'm getting at with you is, you're knackered, you're working overtime, you're not necessarily-

00:14:02.940 You've got to a decent place, but you're not going any further.

00:14:06.280 Yeah.

00:14:06.380 And then you feel out of kilter with the rest of the comedy circuit that you're operating in, which is your world at this point, right?

00:14:15.540 Because really, when you're a comedian, the way- I don't know whether it's the sort of people that are attracted to comedy,

00:14:21.280 or whether comedy makes you this way, but people won't necessarily get this,

00:14:25.740 but when you are a comedian, your whole life becomes that.

00:14:28.240 Oh, right.

00:14:28.820 And I'm sure we'll talk about that when we talk about my experience,

00:14:31.060 but you are all in, all your quote-unquote friends are in comedy, your whole life is in comedy,

00:14:36.480 and suddenly this world that you've been living in for the last 10 years,

00:14:40.200 it becomes a place that you consider intolerant, wrong, in which you feel out of place,

00:14:46.260 you're not necessarily feeling like you're going anywhere,

00:14:48.900 and at this point, I come along, and we go, okay, let's do this, right?

00:14:52.180 Yeah.

00:14:52.500 And I don't know if you remember this, but you said, when I suggested it to you, you agreed,

00:14:56.440 and then the next day you called me up, and you said that you'd had a nosebleed,

00:15:01.500 which again is a reflection of your health at this point, right?

00:15:05.380 And you said, you know what, Constance, maybe you should just do this yourself.

00:15:08.640 Do you remember this?

00:15:09.240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I had a nosebleed, and it was so bad,

00:15:13.820 it needed my girlfriend to help staunch the bleeding,

00:15:18.180 because it was- I was- at that point, I've actually forgotten about this,

00:15:22.200 I was getting regular nosebleeds at the time.

00:15:24.300 I remember I took my girlfriend to the theatre as a treat for her,

00:15:27.520 and I had to leave at one point, because I had to go to the bathroom,

00:15:31.000 because my nose was bleeding so heavily,

00:15:32.920 which isn't a good look for a man in his early to mid-30s, you know?

00:15:37.300 He's getting younger by the sentence, isn't he?

00:15:39.660 He started off mid-30s, now he's early 30s.

00:15:41.960 Yeah, exactly.

00:15:42.580 It was three years ago, you were late 30s by that point already.

00:15:45.320 No, I wasn't, I wasn't, anyway.

00:15:46.620 Right, so your health wasn't great, and you called me up,

00:15:49.340 and you were like, you know what, I'm not sure I can do this.

00:15:52.160 And it's because it's capacity, I just didn't have any capacity.

00:15:56.740 No, I know, I know.

00:15:57.700 I just didn't have the capacity for something new,

00:16:00.580 for a new project, for wanting to take something on like this.

00:16:04.380 And you were like, and you were said to me,

00:16:06.360 okay, that's cool, go away and think about it.

00:16:08.520 And I remember speaking to my girlfriend at the time,

00:16:10.840 bless her, lovely person, and she said to me,

00:16:14.200 you know, I like Constantine, steak.

00:16:16.200 Like, I think you should do this,

00:16:19.100 and I think it would be good for you.

00:16:20.920 And from then, when we started doing it,

00:16:25.580 I remember our first interview,

00:16:27.360 we got some great advice, actually, from Simon Cain,

00:16:29.780 who's a big fan of the show, who's a podcaster himself.

00:16:32.980 He said to us, record a dummy episode, essentially.

00:16:38.580 You know, so we got Finn Taylor in,

00:16:39.960 he was a marvellous comedian.

00:16:40.960 We sat down, we talked.

00:16:42.840 And then you, because I...

00:16:44.040 And it all, it looked terrible, it sounded terrible.

00:16:46.500 Everything about it was terrible.

00:16:47.900 Yeah, everything about it was shit.

00:16:49.260 And we couldn't put it out.

00:16:50.420 No, we couldn't put it out.

00:16:51.980 But I remember the conversation being quite interesting.

00:16:54.200 Yeah, the conversation was interesting.

00:16:55.760 Yeah, and then, but you, I was like, is this, is this good?

00:16:59.240 And you were like, no, visually,

00:17:00.400 because you were very much a child of Ruben and Rogan.

00:17:03.320 You were like, no, we have to change this.

00:17:04.820 It has to look good.

00:17:05.660 It has to look professional.

00:17:06.680 See, I've never really consumed YouTube

00:17:08.940 in any shape or form at that point.

00:17:10.440 I just didn't have the time and that wasn't my world.

00:17:13.360 And you were like, no, we have to do this.

00:17:15.200 And I remember you banging on about lapel mics.

00:17:16.920 I was like, what?

00:17:17.700 I don't understand.

00:17:18.600 Why can't we just have microphones?

00:17:20.460 You know, when we go and do radio, that's how it was.

00:17:23.120 How is this different to radio?

00:17:25.320 And that's where the journey started.

00:17:28.600 And from then on in, it's, and we'll go into it more.

00:17:31.480 It's just been an absolute rollercoaster

00:17:34.380 of things that are really bizarre and surreal.

00:17:37.740 From you appearing...

00:17:38.740 Hold off on that.

00:17:40.240 Yeah.

00:17:40.380 We'll get to the later bits first.

00:17:43.920 Let me talk about my situation before leading into it.

00:17:48.700 So I started doing comedy around mid-2015, 2015.

00:17:55.600 I did like a short course about how to write jokes and stuff.

00:17:59.360 And then I started doing it.

00:18:00.380 And I think towards probably about 2016, 2017,

00:18:08.000 I started watching a lot of Ruben, Rogan,

00:18:11.820 and just I became aware politically that something was happening.

00:18:15.380 And I remember, and this will sound really odd,

00:18:17.880 because I voted Remain and...

00:18:20.300 Because we're good people.

00:18:21.140 Because we're, you know, that used to be the joke

00:18:23.500 that we used to make three years ago,

00:18:25.040 keep up with the material.

00:18:26.080 But I...

00:18:28.080 So I still had that very liberal mindset in many ways.

00:18:31.140 And I still do to this day.

00:18:32.520 You know, I'm genuinely a liberal in the traditional sense of it.

00:18:35.920 But I remember during the run-up to the Brexit referendum,

00:18:40.100 I probably watched,

00:18:41.780 and a lot of people who hate us are going to take this bit

00:18:44.160 and run with it,

00:18:45.100 I probably watched every single speech that Nigel Farage gave

00:18:48.320 in the lead-up to that campaign.

00:18:50.320 Because I think at some level,

00:18:52.940 I was already starting to realise

00:18:54.560 that there was a piece missing in my picture of the world.

00:18:58.860 And I've always been someone who's very curious about

00:19:01.620 life and politics and the world.

00:19:04.100 And I was trying to get to what the truth is,

00:19:06.920 even if it doesn't necessarily accord with what I already believe.

00:19:09.400 So I started watching it.

00:19:10.620 And the more I did, you know,

00:19:12.000 and I was terrified of this.

00:19:13.180 I was terrified of what I was going through.

00:19:16.200 Because I remember I watched Dave Rubin for two years

00:19:19.140 before I clicked subscribe on his YouTube channel.

00:19:22.640 Why?

00:19:23.100 Because I was afraid of what other comedians would,

00:19:25.940 if they knew, if I liked his Facebook page,

00:19:29.080 if they saw this.

00:19:29.840 That's how the comedy industry works.

00:19:31.840 Everybody's watching everybody

00:19:33.060 and you're worried about the repercussions.

00:19:34.740 So at that point,

00:19:36.820 I was terrified just to admit that I'm looking at something,

00:19:40.920 the wrong think thing, you know.

00:19:42.920 But my life at that point was probably as hard as yours.

00:19:48.440 I was working in some ways,

00:19:51.320 I was going to say even harder.

00:19:52.840 It's not fair to say that even harder.

00:19:54.600 But I was doing other things that made my life harder,

00:19:57.400 which is you were gigging mainly in London.

00:19:59.780 I was not living in London

00:20:01.240 and I would be gigging in London and elsewhere.

00:20:03.280 So my typical day before trigonometry

00:20:05.780 would be do a full day of work

00:20:07.720 because I was not making enough money to live off

00:20:10.460 because it takes years in comedy to get to that point.

00:20:13.200 I'd do a full day of work,

00:20:14.720 jump in the car,

00:20:16.020 drive for two hours,

00:20:18.180 do five minutes or 10 minutes

00:20:19.680 of some shitty gig with two people in the audience,

00:20:22.200 drive home for two hours,

00:20:23.480 get home for midnight.

00:20:24.660 You can't sleep because your adrenaline is,

00:20:26.540 you know, keeping you awake.

00:20:28.160 You eat some shit, right?

00:20:30.440 You go to bed at two,

00:20:31.640 wake up at 11 feeling like you've been smashed in the head

00:20:34.140 with a mallet all night, right?

00:20:36.300 And then go again.

00:20:37.760 What was your worst ever gig?

00:20:39.100 Like, see, it's interesting

00:20:41.600 because I don't really remember these bad gigs

00:20:47.100 because I'll be honest with you

00:20:48.780 and we'll get to it later.

00:20:50.120 Even when our life was starting

00:20:52.440 to really get good in many ways,

00:20:55.260 you know, the bit I really remember

00:20:56.980 was not a bad gig.

00:20:58.200 It was a great moment in my life,

00:21:00.220 which when I, you know,

00:21:01.580 jumping ahead a little bit,

00:21:02.560 when Trigonometry was going well,

00:21:04.480 my contract situation had already happened

00:21:06.500 and I was opening for Jeff Norcott,

00:21:08.240 who's since become a good friend

00:21:09.440 and he was always very supportive to me.

00:21:11.520 And, you know, for people who are not aware,

00:21:13.400 at this point, for me,

00:21:14.380 opening for Jeff was like a huge opportunity.

00:21:17.180 Of course it is.

00:21:18.240 And so, and other things were already happening

00:21:20.360 and Trigonometry was doing well.

00:21:22.000 And this was the day

00:21:23.000 when I opened for Jeff two nights in a row.

00:21:25.400 This was incredible, right?

00:21:26.920 So what happened was,

00:21:28.040 we did two recordings in London,

00:21:29.580 then I drove to Bristol and opened for gig for Jeff

00:21:32.840 at my old school theater in my school.

00:21:36.160 That was a great moment for me.

00:21:37.920 Stayed the night in Bristol.

00:21:39.200 Next day, drive to Plymouth,

00:21:40.560 which is another three hours drive.

00:21:42.740 Do a gig for him there.

00:21:44.300 Leave as soon as I've done my spot.

00:21:46.260 Drive back to London for three and a half hours.

00:21:48.720 I get to my mate's house,

00:21:50.040 who I haven't seen for a year.

00:21:51.140 He allowed me to stay with him probably around 1 a.m.

00:21:54.540 He's already in bed.

00:21:55.600 So is his missus.

00:21:56.680 I go to bed.

00:21:57.880 I wake up at 6 a.m.

00:21:59.580 So five hours later,

00:22:01.300 don't see my mate that I'm staying with either.

00:22:03.960 And I go to the battle of ideas the next day.

00:22:06.360 Wow.

00:22:06.820 And that to me was a really exciting weekend.

00:22:10.280 That was success.

00:22:11.060 That was success.

00:22:12.200 But that was worse than any gig that I've died at

00:22:15.540 because the emotional and physical toll

00:22:19.060 that that takes on you.

00:22:20.480 Imagine that,

00:22:21.200 driving eight hours in the space of two days,

00:22:24.140 doing two gigs and getting about,

00:22:25.940 I don't know, five, six hours sleep a night.

00:22:28.420 And that was the pinnacle of my career at the time.

00:22:31.860 It was success.

00:22:32.860 Yeah.

00:22:33.120 So to me,

00:22:34.120 some people not laughing or someone tackling me,

00:22:37.480 that was nothing as bad as what I was doing to myself

00:22:40.340 every day.

00:22:43.220 So I don't really,

00:22:45.680 maybe it's because I haven't done comedy for a while as well.

00:22:48.620 Like the memory of those shit gigs that I used to do,

00:22:51.840 it really doesn't exist for me in the same way.

00:22:54.060 What I remember is driving myself to the brink of exhaustion,

00:22:57.740 just doing the show and trying to make it work

00:23:01.560 and, you know,

00:23:02.340 always trying to improve and the gigs and the this and the that,

00:23:05.580 you know,

00:23:06.160 that was the thing that was actually the worst in many ways,

00:23:09.760 you know.

00:23:11.360 What about you?

00:23:12.140 I mean,

00:23:13.220 my worst ever gig.

00:23:14.940 This,

00:23:15.060 this is a,

00:23:16.020 this is a story.

00:23:18.180 This is a beautiful story.

00:23:20.140 So,

00:23:20.680 uh,

00:23:21.000 my 10th gig I did at the local pub.

00:23:23.760 It was,

00:23:24.460 it was known as the Grove in South Wimbledon.

00:23:26.500 It was my local pub.

00:23:27.620 It was rough.

00:23:28.820 I got my first pint ever served to me there whilst dressed in my dad's

00:23:33.140 leather jacket.

00:23:33.960 Okay.

00:23:34.660 16 years old,

00:23:35.960 feeling incredible.

00:23:37.300 Legend.

00:23:37.780 Exactly.

00:23:38.500 We went in,

00:23:39.220 I did a,

00:23:39.680 I did a,

00:23:40.280 I did a gig there.

00:23:41.520 It was a 10 minute open spot in the middle and I got up.

00:23:46.180 And because it was my local pub,

00:23:47.960 because of the people were people that I grew up with.

00:23:50.320 I knew who they were.

00:23:51.420 There was,

00:23:51.680 you know,

00:23:52.320 South London,

00:23:53.400 you know,

00:23:53.940 mixed crowd,

00:23:55.000 you know,

00:23:55.620 working class,

00:23:56.380 Irish,

00:23:56.840 blah,

00:23:56.980 blah,

00:23:57.140 blah.

00:23:57.280 I was like,

00:23:57.660 I've got this.

00:23:58.400 And I riffed,

00:23:59.220 I riffed for 10 minutes and I smashed it and I came off and I was just like,

00:24:03.620 I'm,

00:24:03.880 I'm a genius.

00:24:05.100 And the promoter saw me and went,

00:24:07.100 that was brilliant.

00:24:08.500 He goes,

00:24:09.100 you need to do bigger gigs.

00:24:10.420 He goes,

00:24:10.680 how long have you been going?

00:24:11.740 I went,

00:24:12.220 I've done 10 gigs.

00:24:13.300 He was,

00:24:13.880 then he looked at me and was like,

00:24:15.100 wow,

00:24:15.280 this is almost like a prodigy.

00:24:16.920 You're going to do this gig.

00:24:18.440 I'm like,

00:24:18.940 great.

00:24:19.300 He goes,

00:24:19.680 it's in the lava lounge in Bournemouth.

00:24:22.480 So for our non-British viewers,

00:24:25.040 Bournemouth is a,

00:24:25.940 is a sort of party town where a lot of,

00:24:28.100 uh,

00:24:28.360 what we call hen nights and stag nights,

00:24:30.200 which is a bachelorette and bachelor parties go to,

00:24:33.020 right?

00:24:33.160 Yeah,

00:24:33.600 exactly.

00:24:34.040 So he goes,

00:24:34.640 this is where you see this way.

00:24:36.460 Yeah.

00:24:36.740 The lava lounge.

00:24:37.600 And to me,

00:24:38.200 I'm like,

00:24:38.720 great.

00:24:39.920 300 people in this place.

00:24:41.480 This is going to be amazing.

00:24:42.500 I drove down with the comedians.

00:24:44.380 Uh,

00:24:44.580 one of whom is actually a guy called Kevin Shepard,

00:24:47.440 lovely guy.

00:24:48.000 And he was talking to me and he was talking to me and I noticed that Kevin,

00:24:52.780 Kev showed a little,

00:24:53.840 a few signs of trepidation.

00:24:55.440 He wasn't looking that comfortable and I'm like,

00:24:58.100 Oh,

00:24:58.360 what's going on?

00:24:59.140 And he was like,

00:24:59.520 he was going to me.

00:25:01.100 It's,

00:25:01.640 this isn't an easy gig,

00:25:02.980 Francis.

00:25:03.320 I'm like,

00:25:03.760 Oh,

00:25:03.920 I'll be fine,

00:25:04.560 mate.

00:25:05.080 Just did 10 minutes to 30 people in a pub and I smashed it.

00:25:08.540 300.

00:25:09.520 It's going to be 10 times better.

00:25:11.720 Anyway,

00:25:12.340 we got to the,

00:25:13.000 we got to the gig.

00:25:15.500 Kevin went on.

00:25:16.660 Uh,

00:25:16.960 the MC went on,

00:25:18.000 did okay.

00:25:19.180 Kevin went on,

00:25:20.100 opened,

00:25:20.700 did okay.

00:25:21.380 There was a break.

00:25:22.360 I remember looking out and there was 300 people.

00:25:26.100 There was about,

00:25:27.500 and they're all stagging hens.

00:25:28.820 So there were 288 stags and 12 hens.

00:25:33.880 And I immediately thought this is creating an atmosphere.

00:25:37.460 Yeah.

00:25:37.840 And it's not a pleasant one.

00:25:39.560 No,

00:25:39.760 I bet you thought this is my crowd.

00:25:40.940 So anyway,

00:25:44.140 they brought me to the stage and I went on and they looked at me and I looked at them and I realized they weren't really on board.

00:25:51.680 And,

00:25:52.240 uh,

00:25:52.660 I said my first joke and it got polite laughter.

00:25:55.780 I said my second joke and it didn't get much.

00:25:59.800 And then all of a sudden I heard this low rumble of discontent,

00:26:03.760 this booing,

00:26:05.200 this,

00:26:05.620 this booing.

00:26:06.480 And I went,

00:26:07.160 stop.

00:26:07.600 And I said to them,

00:26:08.560 stop,

00:26:08.980 stop.

00:26:09.300 Don't boo.

00:26:09.820 Not,

00:26:10.680 not a good move.

00:26:12.100 Not a power move,

00:26:13.500 is it?

00:26:14.340 Please don't boo.

00:26:15.600 Let me tell my next joke.

00:26:20.800 So just imagine the scene,

00:26:22.840 right?

00:26:23.680 It's a nightclub in Bournemouth,

00:26:25.220 300 stagging heads.

00:26:27.440 And there's these very angry drunk men dressed in mankinis looking at me and people coked out of their eyeballs whilst dressed as Spider-Man getting more and more angry.

00:26:39.200 And I went and,

00:26:40.960 and,

00:26:40.980 and I had a little setup and I went,

00:26:42.920 so I look Jewish.

00:26:44.140 And then at the back,

00:26:45.480 I heard the word Yid,

00:26:47.560 Yid,

00:26:48.380 Yid,

00:26:49.220 Yid until 300 people were all there chanting the word Yid.

00:26:54.960 Now,

00:26:55.140 I don't know if you've ever had a very angry man who's morbidly obese in a mankini chant the word Yid at you.

00:27:03.460 But it's an interesting way to spend an evening.

00:27:06.600 The funniest thing about that is you're not even Jewish.

00:27:08.320 Yeah,

00:27:08.660 I'm not even Jewish,

00:27:09.420 but I've been anti-Semitically heckled off the stage.

00:27:12.720 So I was just getting heckled,

00:27:15.340 boos,

00:27:15.960 you're shit,

00:27:16.800 get off,

00:27:17.700 fuck you,

00:27:18.640 Spurs are shit.

00:27:19.520 I don't even support Spurs.

00:27:21.700 The Tottenham Hotspur.

00:27:24.160 So I put the mic back and then I walked off utterly devastated.

00:27:29.800 I feel as my whole world was collapsing around me.

00:27:33.240 And my,

00:27:33.860 this was my 11th gig.

00:27:35.200 And then I walked up onto,

00:27:37.060 I walked up to the green room and the MC,

00:27:41.180 who's a guy called James Redman,

00:27:42.560 who was very big.

00:27:43.300 He was a heartthrob in soaps about 10 years before that.

00:27:46.860 He played Finn in Hollyoaks.

00:27:48.220 He just came up to me and he just held me as I was just shaking in the green room,

00:27:53.500 just literally convulsing with just shock and just sadness as this,

00:28:00.800 just shame overcame my body.

00:28:02.860 And I remember thinking at the time going,

00:28:04.420 there's a lot of women who I went to school with who would pay a lot of money for this moment.

00:28:09.720 I just remember thinking that.

00:28:11.480 And then this was the worst bit.

00:28:13.020 The headliner is called Terry Alderton.

00:28:14.980 He's a very good comedian.

00:28:16.140 Brilliant comedian.

00:28:17.460 Brilliant impressionist.

00:28:18.760 Went on and did a 10 minute impersonation of me on stage.

00:28:24.080 And all I could hear backstage was the words,

00:28:28.100 please let me tell my joke.

00:28:32.040 I mean,

00:28:32.640 he was not being a dick.

00:28:33.640 He had to do that.

00:28:34.540 He had to do it.

00:28:35.160 That's the only way you address that situation.

00:28:36.840 But for you,

00:28:37.440 it would have been bad.

00:28:38.060 Yeah.

00:28:38.340 And he took the roof off.

00:28:40.180 Yeah,

00:28:40.400 of course.

00:28:40.600 And then seeing that and everything that happened.

00:28:44.480 And I remember,

00:28:45.620 bless him,

00:28:45.960 he came up to me and he put his hands around my face and went,

00:28:50.120 I'm sorry.

00:28:51.640 I had to do that.

00:28:52.700 That was the only way I was going to get them back.

00:28:54.720 It happens to everyone.

00:28:56.080 Yeah.

00:28:56.380 You're going to be fine.

00:28:58.060 Go to bed.

00:28:59.080 Do a gig tomorrow.

00:29:00.460 You'll be grand.

00:29:01.720 And bless him for saying that.

00:29:03.180 But he had to do that.

00:29:05.060 But it's...

00:29:05.740 Yeah.

00:29:05.860 You reminded me of a gig that...

00:29:07.820 Do you know what?

00:29:08.580 My worst gig is a gig I didn't even do.

00:29:10.780 Really?

00:29:11.160 Yeah.

00:29:11.680 So do you remember there was a...

00:29:12.880 There's a guy...

00:29:13.860 I won't name names because there's no point.

00:29:15.800 But there's a guy who used to run open mic type gigs in London.

00:29:19.160 Yeah.

00:29:19.940 And I turned up and it just looked like a cafe.

00:29:23.640 There was no stage.

00:29:24.540 There was no microphone.

00:29:25.680 Yeah.

00:29:26.060 And there was no audience.

00:29:27.000 Yeah.

00:29:27.280 And I turned up and I went,

00:29:28.680 hey...

00:29:28.920 And I always,

00:29:29.660 you know,

00:29:29.860 from the very beginning,

00:29:30.620 I always tried to be professional.

00:29:31.760 Yeah.

00:29:31.980 So I turned up,

00:29:32.820 but you know,

00:29:33.540 I was like,

00:29:34.340 hey,

00:29:34.580 how are you doing?

00:29:35.180 Nice to meet you.

00:29:35.700 I'm constant in.

00:29:36.640 So I'm looking forward to this gig.

00:29:38.260 And he looked at me and went,

00:29:39.960 it's good that you're enthusiastic,

00:29:42.020 but can you go outside and see if anyone wants to watch the show?

00:29:45.860 And I looked around.

00:29:47.280 I looked at the situation.

00:29:48.820 I walked outside and I just got in my car and drove away.

00:29:52.680 And do you know what?

00:29:53.620 That's the smartest thing you've ever done.

00:29:55.560 I know,

00:29:55.920 man.

00:29:56.500 I know.

00:29:57.780 So that was the world we were coming from.

00:30:00.440 And then we start trigonometry.

00:30:03.340 And at the beginning,

00:30:04.840 it was funny because you said to me,

00:30:10.560 Constantine,

00:30:11.140 I think we're going to need a producer.

00:30:13.120 And I said,

00:30:14.060 what for?

00:30:14.980 Like,

00:30:15.320 that's how little I know.

00:30:16.420 I was just like,

00:30:17.020 well,

00:30:17.140 you get a camera,

00:30:17.920 you get a microphone,

00:30:18.860 and you just,

00:30:19.600 you know,

00:30:19.780 I had no idea what to do.

00:30:21.140 And neither did you.

00:30:21.820 Neither of us did.

00:30:23.020 So Anton,

00:30:24.620 who is our producer,

00:30:26.600 wasn't around at this time.

00:30:27.960 We will get to how we got Anton on board.

00:30:31.340 I mean,

00:30:31.840 he was around,

00:30:32.520 but we just didn't know him.

00:30:33.280 We just didn't know him.

00:30:34.060 Exactly.

00:30:34.820 Thankfully.

00:30:35.880 So we started with,

00:30:37.880 we borrowed a camera of one of your mates.

00:30:41.800 Yes,

00:30:42.220 we did.

00:30:42.580 We borrowed a camera of one of my mates.

00:30:44.260 We borrowed my wife's camera.

00:30:46.140 Yeah.

00:30:46.520 That she had.

00:30:47.300 Yeah.

00:30:48.180 And we bought some shitty tabletop microphones

00:30:51.420 for like 20 quid each.

00:30:52.600 Yeah.

00:30:53.020 Right.

00:30:54.280 And we hired this like 18 or 19 year old girl.

00:30:59.560 Yeah.

00:31:00.000 Who was a producer for us

00:31:01.760 who didn't know what she was doing.

00:31:03.060 Either.

00:31:03.540 No.

00:31:03.760 Either.

00:31:04.180 Just like us.

00:31:05.160 And one of the first episodes we recorded

00:31:07.440 was with Pippa Malgram,

00:31:08.460 who's still to this day,

00:31:09.380 one of our great guests.

00:31:11.480 But because of,

00:31:12.660 of everyone not knowing what to do,

00:31:14.720 we lost most of that episode.

00:31:16.760 Yeah.

00:31:16.960 Do you remember that?

00:31:17.780 Yes,

00:31:18.100 I do remember that.

00:31:19.740 And that was the level

00:31:21.240 at which we were operating at the time.

00:31:22.820 And I was scrimping and scraping

00:31:24.020 to get guests

00:31:24.800 because I had a few contacts.

00:31:27.820 And we just started doing it.

00:31:29.380 Yeah.

00:31:29.980 And we just started doing it.

00:31:31.580 In addition to all the stuff

00:31:32.900 that we just talked about.

00:31:33.900 Yeah.

00:31:34.060 You were still doing the MCing

00:31:35.420 and the radio and the teaching.

00:31:36.560 Yeah.

00:31:36.840 I was still doing all the gigs

00:31:37.980 and all this other shit.

00:31:39.160 And we've now added this new podcast

00:31:42.020 that we have no idea what to do with

00:31:43.600 to the list of things that we do.

00:31:45.020 And we were both in relationships,

00:31:46.020 long-term relationships.

00:31:47.080 So we were trying to keep those afloat as well.

00:31:49.440 And we didn't,

00:31:50.080 and we were putting our money into it.

00:31:51.900 And we had no money.

00:31:53.080 Yeah.

00:31:53.300 I certainly had no money.

00:31:54.800 Yeah.

00:31:54.900 So we were literally putting money

00:31:56.500 that I couldn't afford into this thing.

00:31:58.960 Yeah.

00:31:59.060 And look, the comedy club

00:32:00.300 that I was working at the time

00:32:01.260 very graciously and very generously

00:32:02.920 donated their space.

00:32:04.180 Yeah.

00:32:04.440 Yeah.

00:32:04.620 They actually used the space.

00:32:05.580 Yeah.

00:32:05.880 So we were very lucky with that

00:32:07.420 because without that,

00:32:09.040 I'm not sure how we would have started.

00:32:10.620 But anyway,

00:32:11.080 so we started off.

00:32:12.440 The first episode

00:32:13.400 is Gideon Rackman.

00:32:14.700 Ha!

00:32:15.660 So Gideon came in.

00:32:16.940 God bless him.

00:32:17.860 He was great.

00:32:18.520 He was great.

00:32:18.980 He comes in,

00:32:20.120 sits down.

00:32:20.960 We're around this table

00:32:21.900 where you can't see our faces.

00:32:23.260 Yeah.

00:32:23.500 It's from the side.

00:32:24.400 It looks like a seance.

00:32:25.560 Yeah, it looks like a seance.

00:32:26.640 Terribly lit.

00:32:27.820 Blah, blah, blah.

00:32:28.760 We start recording.

00:32:30.020 Within about,

00:32:30.840 I don't know,

00:32:31.160 a couple of minutes,

00:32:32.500 there's a horn beeping outside.

00:32:34.240 Yeah.

00:32:34.520 And it's ridiculously loud.

00:32:36.100 Yeah.

00:32:36.380 So I'm like all pumped up.

00:32:37.920 I go outside to deal with it.

00:32:40.500 And there's a woman

00:32:41.340 trying to attach

00:32:44.020 one of those like

00:32:44.800 anti-theft devices

00:32:45.920 to a steering wheel.

00:32:47.280 And in the process,

00:32:48.020 she keeps pressing

00:32:48.820 on the thing.

00:32:50.720 Right?

00:32:51.200 And I go up to her,

00:32:52.200 in my opinion,

00:32:52.920 quite politely and go,

00:32:53.880 hey, excuse me,

00:32:54.980 are you going to be much longer

00:32:56.500 because we're recording

00:32:57.480 a podcast next door?

00:32:58.700 And she gets very angry with me.

00:33:00.680 Yeah.

00:33:01.240 And at this point,

00:33:02.140 two other people

00:33:02.760 who turn out to be her parents

00:33:04.000 come out of the house

00:33:05.220 and they like,

00:33:06.480 their experience

00:33:07.160 is I'm harassing their daughter.

00:33:08.780 Yeah.

00:33:09.140 So they basically

00:33:09.900 chase me down the street.

00:33:14.940 And it turned out

00:33:17.040 they'd just come from a funeral

00:33:18.200 so they were understandably

00:33:19.600 quite upset.

00:33:20.400 Yeah.

00:33:20.780 And then we had to write

00:33:22.760 a letter of apology.

00:33:23.880 And give them chocolates.

00:33:25.080 And give them chocolates.

00:33:25.900 And that's how the show started.

00:33:27.360 That was day one.

00:33:28.260 Yeah.

00:33:28.540 We were already

00:33:29.300 pissing people off.

00:33:30.420 Yeah.

00:33:30.780 From day one.

00:33:32.140 Inadvertently,

00:33:32.640 but still pissing people off.

00:33:34.400 And then we got,

00:33:35.600 we started to,

00:33:36.720 thanks to you,

00:33:37.160 we got some,

00:33:37.760 you know,

00:33:38.000 really good guests

00:33:38.900 in.

00:33:39.100 So Pippa came in,

00:33:40.000 although we lost that.

00:33:41.440 Andrew Doyle came in.

00:33:42.980 Yeah.

00:33:43.180 That wasn't thanks to me,

00:33:44.180 actually.

00:33:45.000 You got Andrew Doyle in.

00:33:46.340 Did I get Andrew Doyle?

00:33:47.000 Well,

00:33:47.320 we wanted to get Andrew in

00:33:48.620 and you were the one

00:33:49.220 that had his details somehow.

00:33:50.860 And as we talked about

00:33:51.960 at the live show

00:33:52.580 with Andrew

00:33:53.360 a couple of months ago,

00:33:55.380 he thought we were

00:33:56.360 trying to stitch him up

00:33:57.080 because he didn't know us

00:33:57.900 at the time, right?

00:33:58.940 So we get Doyle in,

00:33:59.960 we get Gideon in,

00:34:00.820 we get Pippa in,

00:34:01.920 we get Liam Halligan in.

00:34:02.920 And I had to work really hard

00:34:03.900 to get Liam in,

00:34:04.780 you know.

00:34:05.220 We got David Pilling in.

00:34:06.500 David Pilling was great.

00:34:07.700 And gradually,

00:34:08.380 we start doing stuff.

00:34:09.960 And, you know,

00:34:10.700 Peter Tatchell came in.

00:34:11.900 Yeah, he did.

00:34:12.340 You know,

00:34:12.520 that was a big guest

00:34:13.400 at the time for us.

00:34:15.020 And then all of that's happening.

00:34:18.120 And then our producer says,

00:34:21.080 you know what?

00:34:21.540 I really don't want to do this.

00:34:23.120 Yeah.

00:34:23.340 This was like five episodes

00:34:24.440 in or something.

00:34:25.180 Yeah.

00:34:25.420 She was like,

00:34:26.000 you know what?

00:34:27.380 This isn't for me.

00:34:28.520 I don't really enjoy this.

00:34:30.320 Kudos to her.

00:34:31.320 Instead of,

00:34:31.840 you know,

00:34:32.180 being,

00:34:33.040 you know,

00:34:33.560 because she was only 19,

00:34:34.840 but she had,

00:34:35.460 you know,

00:34:35.760 she had the stuff

00:34:37.660 to come up to us.

00:34:38.420 I was going to say cojones,

00:34:39.260 wrong way of saying that.

00:34:40.680 She had the stuff

00:34:41.220 to come up to us

00:34:41.920 and say,

00:34:42.240 look,

00:34:42.840 this isn't for me.

00:34:43.620 So we're like,

00:34:44.320 okay.

00:34:45.080 Yeah.

00:34:45.380 But the one thing

00:34:46.300 I do remember about that

00:34:47.520 is in the last episode

00:34:49.140 we ever recorded with her,

00:34:51.080 she so didn't give a shit

00:34:52.660 that she was sitting

00:34:53.400 in the corner

00:34:53.900 just typing.

00:34:54.980 And I remember

00:34:55.540 sitting there seething

00:34:56.700 at the fact

00:34:57.320 that we were still paying her.

00:34:58.940 And instead of

00:34:59.900 paying attention

00:35:00.840 to the episode,

00:35:01.740 she was just like

00:35:02.520 doing admin

00:35:03.140 and I could hear the keys

00:35:04.460 and every time

00:35:04.960 she pressed the key,

00:35:05.700 I was like.

00:35:06.480 Really?

00:35:07.040 I don't even remember that.

00:35:08.360 What episode was that with?

00:35:10.700 Would it be

00:35:11.120 Jeremy Shapiro maybe?

00:35:12.340 Oh,

00:35:12.540 was it Jeremy Shapiro?

00:35:13.840 It might have been.

00:35:14.360 I don't remember.

00:35:14.920 But my point is,

00:35:15.960 like,

00:35:16.780 it was not a good situation.

00:35:18.060 No, no.

00:35:18.520 So now,

00:35:19.060 having just started

00:35:20.160 and just got the ball rolling,

00:35:21.880 our producer basically says,

00:35:23.100 I don't want to work

00:35:23.700 with you anymore.

00:35:24.960 So then,

00:35:25.640 we found

00:35:26.320 another producer

00:35:27.160 who you'd worked with before.

00:35:28.540 Yep.

00:35:28.760 And he had a studio

00:35:31.340 that was professional

00:35:32.660 and he had the right,

00:35:35.520 his cameras are probably

00:35:36.640 more expensive

00:35:37.240 than the ones we use

00:35:38.020 to this day.

00:35:38.620 Yeah.

00:35:39.000 Right?

00:35:39.460 Great cameras.

00:35:40.400 Yeah.

00:35:40.680 He was very skilled

00:35:41.520 in terms of,

00:35:42.480 you know,

00:35:42.740 technically he knew

00:35:43.460 what he was doing

00:35:44.180 and we were like,

00:35:45.360 well,

00:35:45.500 look,

00:35:45.940 we can,

00:35:46.540 it's embarrassing,

00:35:48.360 but we were like,

00:35:48.880 look,

00:35:49.440 we can maybe afford

00:35:50.680 to pay you 500 pounds

00:35:51.840 a month to edit

00:35:52.620 four episodes

00:35:53.300 and record,

00:35:55.100 which was really

00:35:56.200 ridiculous money.

00:35:57.060 Yeah.

00:35:57.500 And he was doing it,

00:35:59.000 you know,

00:35:59.420 on the promise

00:36:00.140 that it might one day

00:36:01.040 become something.

00:36:01.760 Yeah.

00:36:02.240 So we go there

00:36:03.040 and that's where

00:36:04.640 the show really starts

00:36:06.180 taking off

00:36:06.720 because we get Sargon in.

00:36:08.620 Yeah.

00:36:08.920 We get Diana Fleischman in.

00:36:10.580 We get Dr. Linda Papadopoulos in.

00:36:12.700 Yeah,

00:36:13.000 we get Brendan O'Neill in.

00:36:14.840 Brendan,

00:36:15.480 Claire Fox.

00:36:16.300 Yeah.

00:36:17.260 Eric Kaufman.

00:36:18.700 Yeah.

00:36:18.800 David Goodhart.

00:36:19.920 Yeah.

00:36:20.400 And Matt Goodwin.

00:36:21.200 Matt Goodwin.

00:36:22.600 Fucking hell,

00:36:23.240 these are great guests.

00:36:24.220 Yeah.

00:36:24.540 Like if we got a lineup

00:36:25.760 like that this month,

00:36:27.160 we'd be really pleased with that.

00:36:28.520 That's an incredible lineup.

00:36:30.160 And bear in mind,

00:36:31.420 I remember when I read

00:36:32.720 about Eric Kaufman

00:36:33.880 because I read him

00:36:34.800 and then I recommended him

00:36:35.940 to you and said,

00:36:37.220 look,

00:36:37.320 we need to get this guy

00:36:38.140 and this guy's talking.

00:36:39.740 You know,

00:36:39.980 these were guys

00:36:40.800 on the fringes,

00:36:41.720 particularly like,

00:36:42.540 I mean,

00:36:42.900 you on the fringes,

00:36:43.640 they're far more well known now.

00:36:44.880 Yeah.

00:36:45.340 But Matt Goodwin

00:36:46.240 and we made them.

00:36:47.420 Yeah,

00:36:47.560 we made them.

00:36:48.700 Exactly.

00:36:49.700 But all these people,

00:36:51.020 no,

00:36:51.260 they weren't really

00:36:52.080 in the culture war,

00:36:53.580 as it were.

00:36:54.080 No,

00:36:54.400 well,

00:36:54.520 Sargon was.

00:36:55.040 Sargon was

00:36:55.660 and so was Brendan O'Neill,

00:36:56.700 but the rest of them,

00:36:57.680 you know,

00:36:57.960 really weren't.

00:36:59.060 Yeah.

00:36:59.480 And then we brought them in

00:37:00.520 and then we had a conversation

00:37:01.820 and you could feel

00:37:04.920 something was starting

00:37:05.880 to happen.

00:37:06.500 Ella Whelan.

00:37:07.180 Ella Whelan,

00:37:07.840 yeah.

00:37:08.220 Tom Slater.

00:37:09.220 Tom Slater.

00:37:09.920 We got a lot of the spikes

00:37:11.780 growing at that time

00:37:12.680 and they were great.

00:37:13.720 They were great.

00:37:14.160 They were really good.

00:37:15.320 And,

00:37:15.580 you know,

00:37:15.880 at the time,

00:37:16.380 I think one of the things

00:37:17.540 that I remember as well

00:37:18.520 is almost all of them

00:37:20.240 said,

00:37:21.460 I really enjoyed that.

00:37:23.220 That was great questions.

00:37:24.820 Yeah.

00:37:25.660 And I was almost

00:37:27.100 slightly shocked

00:37:27.640 because we were very new

00:37:28.540 to doing it,

00:37:29.220 you know,

00:37:29.380 and let's be honest as well.

00:37:31.140 I think,

00:37:31.860 if you don't mind me saying,

00:37:33.080 you in particular,

00:37:33.920 me,

00:37:34.160 I was probably further down

00:37:35.400 than the red pill rabbit hole

00:37:36.680 at this point.

00:37:37.700 You were quite scared.

00:37:38.740 Of course.

00:37:39.500 Like when we interviewed Sargon,

00:37:40.780 I remember sitting next to you

00:37:42.100 and I could feel the fear

00:37:43.280 coming off you

00:37:44.060 because you were uncomfortable.

00:37:45.740 Oh,

00:37:45.960 absolutely.

00:37:46.640 I was very uncomfortable

00:37:47.720 talking to Sargon

00:37:48.740 because I don't like him.

00:37:50.600 I'm joking,

00:37:51.580 Carl.

00:37:51.880 I like you very much.

00:37:52.860 No,

00:37:53.140 it's,

00:37:53.600 the reason was

00:37:54.540 is because Carl to me

00:37:55.700 was dangerous.

00:37:57.100 Carl could end my career.

00:37:59.280 There are people

00:37:59.940 who still dislike

00:38:01.780 trigonometry

00:38:02.600 and me

00:38:03.300 because we interviewed Carl.

00:38:04.700 I don't care anymore.

00:38:05.580 They can have their opinion,

00:38:06.760 whatever,

00:38:07.360 they're entitled to it.

00:38:08.180 Yeah.

00:38:08.740 But I was genuinely terrified.

00:38:10.440 Kate Andrews.

00:38:11.520 Yeah.

00:38:12.140 We had Kate Andrews in there.

00:38:13.560 And it was a brilliant interview.

00:38:14.640 It was a great interview.

00:38:15.680 So this is a point

00:38:16.680 where the show

00:38:17.120 is actually starting to take off

00:38:18.500 and I think one of the last interviews

00:38:20.340 we did was actually

00:38:21.060 with Jeff Norcott.

00:38:22.060 It was.

00:38:22.900 It was the last one

00:38:24.080 we recorded in that studio.

00:38:25.240 Nicholas Gruen as well

00:38:26.260 we had in there.

00:38:27.160 Yeah.

00:38:27.360 And the reason I say

00:38:28.600 the last interview

00:38:29.380 because as we were

00:38:31.680 really starting

00:38:32.840 to do well

00:38:33.560 it became very clear

00:38:36.220 that our producer

00:38:37.440 again was not

00:38:38.540 on board

00:38:39.160 with what we were doing

00:38:40.000 to the point where

00:38:41.380 when we interviewed

00:38:43.860 and he's a lovely guy

00:38:45.100 bless him

00:38:45.520 but when we interviewed

00:38:46.480 Kate Andrews

00:38:47.140 I remember

00:38:47.520 after the interview

00:38:48.320 was finished

00:38:48.800 he cornered her

00:38:50.600 and started explaining

00:38:51.580 to her

00:38:51.900 why she was wrong

00:38:52.600 about everything.

00:38:53.820 Do you remember?

00:38:54.660 Yeah I do remember

00:38:56.160 and bear in mind

00:38:56.800 actually

00:38:57.300 that guy

00:38:59.040 the producer

00:38:59.740 who I've still got

00:39:01.160 a lot of love for

00:39:01.820 and I'm still in contact with

00:39:02.860 he's a very very intelligent guy

00:39:04.900 with you know

00:39:05.520 very strong opinions

00:39:06.520 of the world

00:39:07.060 but I don't think

00:39:08.680 he understood

00:39:09.520 like because he was also

00:39:10.560 in really great

00:39:11.400 we always get producers

00:39:12.780 who are in great shape

00:39:13.620 don't we

00:39:13.940 just muscly men

00:39:14.860 that he didn't really

00:39:16.920 understand

00:39:17.500 that a muscly dude

00:39:19.460 cornering a little woman

00:39:20.960 and basically

00:39:22.200 you're wrong about this

00:39:24.100 might be a bit intimidating

00:39:25.260 and I remember that

00:39:26.420 because Kate then went

00:39:27.620 well I'm going to leave now

00:39:29.060 and then she walked downstairs

00:39:30.800 and she literally

00:39:31.740 ran out the door

00:39:32.660 and that's the last time

00:39:34.060 I've ever seen Kate.

00:39:35.300 Yeah

00:39:35.740 so that was part of it

00:39:37.480 so he clearly wasn't aligned

00:39:38.760 and I think because

00:39:39.440 he wasn't aligned

00:39:40.120 it meant that he was starting to

00:39:41.800 you know

00:39:42.740 not take it quite as seriously

00:39:44.040 as we'd hoped

00:39:44.660 and look

00:39:45.500 it was unfair of us

00:39:46.940 to expect him

00:39:47.620 to be doing

00:39:48.340 a super professional job

00:39:50.020 when we're paying him peanuts

00:39:51.240 but that was all

00:39:52.060 that we could afford

00:39:52.700 to pay him

00:39:53.220 but at the same time

00:39:54.740 it was starting to get to a point

00:39:56.080 where it was unworkable

00:39:56.960 and I think

00:39:57.840 in characteristic KK style

00:39:59.660 I exploded at one point

00:40:01.080 and I went

00:40:01.800 look

00:40:02.020 this isn't working

00:40:03.040 you know

00:40:03.480 when are you going to do this

00:40:04.460 and he didn't like that

00:40:05.940 and basically

00:40:06.680 we went from

00:40:07.780 oh the show's taking off

00:40:09.240 to we've lost our studio

00:40:10.700 we've lost our equipment

00:40:12.020 and we've lost our producer

00:40:13.260 and we're back to zero.

00:40:15.060 I remember

00:40:15.460 because

00:40:15.920 it happened over Peter Hitchens

00:40:17.780 because Peter was meant to come in

00:40:19.060 and he rescheduled

00:40:19.680 we booked Peter

00:40:20.260 and he cancelled

00:40:21.400 the producer cancelled

00:40:22.480 and Peter was the biggest guest

00:40:24.100 probably to that point

00:40:25.020 that we would ever go

00:40:25.800 of course

00:40:26.300 and you worked really hard

00:40:28.060 to be fair to you

00:40:28.700 to get Peter on

00:40:29.480 and you know

00:40:30.620 because look

00:40:31.920 to be fair to Peter

00:40:32.900 he didn't know who we were

00:40:33.880 he had a reputation

00:40:34.740 to protect

00:40:35.180 so he was very cagey

00:40:36.720 about coming on

00:40:37.360 understandably so

00:40:38.460 I knew

00:40:40.440 that it was unsustainable

00:40:41.920 but in my mind

00:40:42.800 I'm like

00:40:43.240 we just need to bank episodes

00:40:44.520 we're going

00:40:45.200 we're on a roll

00:40:45.960 we need to bank episodes

00:40:47.240 we need to bank episodes

00:40:48.520 we need to bank episodes

00:40:49.600 and then

00:40:51.360 we'll be able to move

00:40:52.900 you know

00:40:53.520 my socially conservative

00:40:54.900 let's get all the points

00:40:56.560 I just couldn't hold it in that far

00:40:57.940 it was just getting too much for me

00:40:59.480 yeah

00:40:59.660 let's keep everything

00:41:00.740 let's make

00:41:01.420 before we make the move

00:41:03.060 then you explode it

00:41:04.380 and I'm like

00:41:04.780 well we've got

00:41:05.440 three episodes

00:41:06.860 and I remember

00:41:08.340 just being there going

00:41:09.440 how are we going to get out

00:41:12.020 of this one

00:41:12.660 and then what we did

00:41:14.800 is we went back

00:41:15.960 to the comedy club

00:41:16.880 didn't we

00:41:18.940 what about Munira

00:41:19.700 of course

00:41:21.520 so what we did

00:41:22.760 is we had a mate

00:41:23.680 of mine at the time

00:41:24.860 who had a house

00:41:25.480 actually around the corner

00:41:26.440 from that studio

00:41:27.260 and we used his house

00:41:28.800 a lovely house

00:41:29.960 to record an episode

00:41:30.800 with Munira

00:41:31.320 which at the time

00:41:32.100 we were very happy about

00:41:33.620 but also

00:41:34.820 he was like

00:41:37.380 just in a random room

00:41:39.080 in his house

00:41:39.700 and there was like

00:41:40.260 a helicopter flying overhead

00:41:41.580 do you remember that

00:41:42.120 yeah

00:41:42.340 and at the time

00:41:44.200 it didn't do particularly well

00:41:45.420 that episode

00:41:45.920 it did alright

00:41:46.580 you got 12,000 views

00:41:48.380 I remember it

00:41:48.980 yeah

00:41:49.240 it's now on over 100

00:41:50.680 I think

00:41:51.020 because Munira

00:41:51.660 has since been

00:41:52.320 a bit of a public figure

00:41:53.420 and there's been

00:41:54.320 controversy involving her

00:41:55.260 so we recorded

00:41:56.120 one episode

00:41:56.700 in someone's house

00:41:57.400 and we realised

00:41:57.920 that wasn't going to work

00:41:58.760 so we went back

00:42:00.040 to the comedy club

00:42:00.880 where we were before

00:42:01.680 and in that process

00:42:03.100 we started looking

00:42:04.120 for a new producer

00:42:04.940 yeah we did

00:42:05.880 and this is where

00:42:08.220 talk radio came in

00:42:09.620 because

00:42:09.920 I had a producer

00:42:12.220 at talk radio

00:42:13.020 who was really good to me

00:42:14.800 and a super lovely guy

00:42:15.920 called Andrew

00:42:16.960 Andrew Spence

00:42:18.060 and I contacted Andrew

00:42:20.160 and I said to him

00:42:21.120 Andrew

00:42:21.480 we need to find

00:42:23.260 a producer

00:42:24.800 and he goes

00:42:26.280 I think I've got the guy

00:42:28.020 for you

00:42:28.400 and I went

00:42:29.500 and he went

00:42:30.020 what's his name

00:42:31.100 he went

00:42:31.440 Anton

00:42:32.000 I remember thinking

00:42:33.040 it's a bit of a weird name

00:42:34.320 right

00:42:35.120 and he goes

00:42:35.860 genuinely what I thought

00:42:37.560 he goes

00:42:38.100 but I think

00:42:38.840 that he'd be perfect

00:42:39.760 for you

00:42:40.180 and I was like

00:42:41.320 okay brilliant

00:42:42.020 so we went to meet him

00:42:44.220 in a burger restaurant

00:42:46.200 we did

00:42:46.740 yeah

00:42:47.220 and so we went to meet

00:42:48.660 we didn't know

00:42:49.180 he was vegetarian

00:42:49.900 at the time

00:42:50.540 now to be fair to us

00:42:51.560 when we found out

00:42:52.240 we still kept taking him

00:42:53.260 there

00:42:53.400 to a steak restaurant

00:42:54.860 we took him

00:42:55.300 to a steak restaurant

00:42:56.280 you've got to look after him

00:42:57.560 yeah exactly

00:42:58.240 come on mate

00:42:58.700 get some protein in you

00:42:59.780 yeah

00:43:00.080 and spoke to him

00:43:01.180 whilst literally eating

00:43:02.460 animal in front of him

00:43:03.640 but here's the thing

00:43:05.960 right

00:43:06.780 so we met him

00:43:08.560 this is the end of 2018

00:43:09.640 by the way

00:43:10.180 this is

00:43:10.480 all of this so far

00:43:11.840 has happened in the space

00:43:13.200 of about six months

00:43:14.080 yeah

00:43:14.420 six months

00:43:15.620 in six months

00:43:16.720 we've lost two studios

00:43:17.940 and two producers

00:43:18.860 yeah

00:43:19.200 and then we met Anton

00:43:21.520 yeah

00:43:22.040 and then

00:43:22.740 we were both

00:43:25.140 really taken with him

00:43:26.100 we were both really taken

00:43:27.440 and we were saying

00:43:28.340 look

00:43:28.560 I think

00:43:30.160 this is the final part

00:43:31.500 and by the way

00:43:32.600 I think he was taken with us

00:43:34.280 because

00:43:35.000 by this point

00:43:36.120 I was

00:43:37.200 absolutely

00:43:38.580 I wasn't convinced

00:43:40.100 I wasn't certain

00:43:41.160 I was just

00:43:42.260 I just knew

00:43:43.480 I knew

00:43:44.620 and I always said this to you

00:43:46.140 if the two of us

00:43:47.340 stick together

00:43:48.420 and we

00:43:49.080 we don't

00:43:50.180 ever fall out

00:43:50.940 between us

00:43:51.600 over stuff

00:43:52.220 this will be a success

00:43:53.600 yeah

00:43:53.960 and I think

00:43:54.780 it's fair to say

00:43:55.660 that I sold you on that

00:43:56.720 as well Anton

00:43:57.200 right

00:43:57.520 yeah

00:43:58.280 because I knew

00:43:59.240 I knew this was going to work

00:44:00.760 by that point

00:44:01.460 I knew

00:44:01.880 because I just thought

00:44:03.280 look at how little we have

00:44:05.000 yeah

00:44:05.380 we have fuck all

00:44:06.100 we have two comedians

00:44:07.020 who don't have any profile at all

00:44:08.720 yeah

00:44:08.920 no equipment

00:44:09.640 no nothing

00:44:10.860 no studio

00:44:11.580 no money

00:44:12.300 no money

00:44:12.860 well negative money

00:44:14.080 yeah

00:44:14.360 right

00:44:14.660 and yeah it's working

00:44:16.540 yeah

00:44:17.000 I just knew it was going to work

00:44:18.140 yeah

00:44:18.400 so we get Anton on board

00:44:19.740 and we just about start

00:44:22.060 the process

00:44:22.640 again we offered him

00:44:23.640 the same 500 quid a month

00:44:25.140 yeah

00:44:25.240 and he was working

00:44:27.640 a bunch of different jobs

00:44:28.740 at the time

00:44:29.320 and doing all that

00:44:30.500 and this is the point

00:44:32.000 where my contract happens

00:44:33.220 the very end of 2018

00:44:34.900 right

00:44:35.900 we've just moved

00:44:37.180 to the new studio

00:44:37.880 we've just got our feet

00:44:38.800 under the table

00:44:39.340 yeah

00:44:39.540 and then

00:44:40.540 for people who are new

00:44:41.900 to the show

00:44:42.500 I get offered to do this gig

00:44:44.320 for charity

00:44:45.160 at one of the woke

00:44:46.460 wokest colleges

00:44:47.440 in this country

00:44:48.860 and they say

00:44:50.440 that they have a

00:44:51.140 zero tolerance policy

00:44:52.220 on racism

00:44:52.820 sexism

00:44:53.380 classism

00:44:53.920 ageism

00:44:54.300 ableism

00:44:54.660 homophobia

00:44:55.200 biphobia

00:44:55.760 transphobia

00:44:56.260 xenophobia

00:44:56.700 etc

00:44:57.060 and I turn it down

00:44:58.960 and I tweet about it

00:44:59.920 and a couple of our guests

00:45:02.000 retweet it

00:45:02.640 and then it goes super viral

00:45:03.880 super viral

00:45:05.160 it goes all around the world

00:45:06.860 this is the thing

00:45:07.360 I always say about it

00:45:08.220 it was the second biggest story

00:45:10.060 on the BBC

00:45:10.860 on the day

00:45:12.280 that Theresa May

00:45:13.160 the then prime minister

00:45:14.080 of this country

00:45:14.640 was nearly removed from office

00:45:16.080 by her own party

00:45:17.480 I remember that

00:45:19.180 and the story

00:45:20.660 about some unknown comedian

00:45:22.380 turning down some shitty

00:45:23.460 unpaid gig

00:45:24.160 from some stupid college

00:45:25.420 was the number two story

00:45:26.960 wow

00:45:27.700 in the country

00:45:28.480 at the time

00:45:29.060 and I was getting messages

00:45:30.380 from all over the world

00:45:31.260 and that was

00:45:33.280 an insane experience

00:45:34.680 from someone

00:45:35.300 who was not in any way

00:45:36.200 a public figure

00:45:36.880 at the time

00:45:37.440 because

00:45:38.860 I don't think many people

00:45:40.880 ever had this experience

00:45:41.820 but you're basically

00:45:42.800 you can't sleep

00:45:44.200 yeah

00:45:44.580 you're getting

00:45:46.240 hundreds of messages

00:45:47.520 every day

00:45:48.740 you wake up at six

00:45:50.420 in the morning

00:45:50.900 and your Twitter DMs

00:45:52.480 you had a thousand people

00:45:53.720 on Twitter yesterday

00:45:54.580 and now

00:45:55.100 it's just like

00:45:55.980 thousands of people

00:45:57.500 following you

00:45:58.040 every few hours

00:45:58.880 yeah

00:45:59.180 and you're getting

00:46:00.420 like messages

00:46:01.320 from the Today Program

00:46:02.780 Times

00:46:03.580 Sunday Times

00:46:04.540 Telegraph

00:46:05.440 Spectator

00:46:06.360 Guardian

00:46:06.860 whatever

00:46:07.180 you're getting phone calls

00:46:08.040 suddenly people know

00:46:08.820 your phone number

00:46:09.540 yeah

00:46:09.980 and it's just non-stop

00:46:12.140 and it was like that

00:46:13.140 for about a week and a half

00:46:14.380 yeah

00:46:14.680 until eventually

00:46:16.000 I got a call from

00:46:17.580 my agent

00:46:18.500 which I luckily

00:46:19.540 had an agent at the time

00:46:20.760 to manage all of this craziness

00:46:22.920 and she said

00:46:24.380 good morning Britain

00:46:27.060 want you to come on

00:46:27.960 and talk about this

00:46:28.700 and it's funny to me

00:46:30.880 to talk about it now

00:46:31.720 because today

00:46:32.700 like I get a message

00:46:34.400 from good morning Britain

00:46:35.280 every few weeks now

00:46:36.220 saying do you want to come on

00:46:37.340 and talk about this

00:46:38.020 or that

00:46:38.360 and I

00:46:38.760 I sometimes don't even answer anymore

00:46:40.700 I'm just not interested

00:46:41.780 but then

00:46:43.180 I remember

00:46:43.820 when it got confirmed

00:46:44.840 it was the end

00:46:48.300 of a very difficult

00:46:49.440 10 days

00:46:50.220 and I went into my room

00:46:52.400 when it got confirmed

00:46:53.200 and I started crying

00:46:54.080 it's the last time

00:46:55.600 I've cried I think

00:46:56.300 because

00:46:56.760 you know

00:46:58.140 all of that stuff

00:46:59.080 that we've been talking about

00:47:00.200 and the things

00:47:00.660 I've been feeling

00:47:01.360 about the importance

00:47:02.720 of freedom of expression

00:47:03.700 the fact that society

00:47:04.880 is going in the wrong direction

00:47:06.160 I was talking about

00:47:07.840 all of this

00:47:08.340 and the world around me

00:47:09.460 the comedy industry

00:47:10.380 the people we're around

00:47:11.320 they were

00:47:12.680 they were saying

00:47:13.420 oh this is all bullshit

00:47:14.320 you're just making this up

00:47:15.760 none of this is true

00:47:16.620 you know

00:47:17.320 and I felt

00:47:17.960 you know

00:47:18.320 I hate to use this term

00:47:19.140 but I felt very gaslit

00:47:20.400 by the entirety

00:47:22.260 of my surroundings

00:47:23.120 and I remember

00:47:23.800 my wife came in

00:47:25.860 and saw me crying

00:47:27.300 and she's

00:47:27.960 you know

00:47:28.460 I just

00:47:28.880 I

00:47:29.640 it was that

00:47:30.500 10 days of

00:47:31.540 just this

00:47:32.820 endless

00:47:33.600 stream of

00:47:35.180 whatever that was happening

00:47:36.260 the stress

00:47:36.880 the tension

00:47:37.480 the worries

00:47:38.660 the whatever

00:47:39.140 and plus

00:47:40.260 that feeling

00:47:40.820 of vindication

00:47:41.520 that's what it was

00:47:43.260 I just felt like

00:47:44.320 finally

00:47:46.200 the

00:47:47.740 this

00:47:48.560 idea that I had

00:47:50.080 in my head

00:47:50.600 it's

00:47:51.280 it's not just

00:47:52.200 me being deluded

00:47:53.140 you know

00:47:54.220 I'm actually

00:47:54.880 people are recognizing

00:47:55.980 the truth

00:47:56.500 in what I've been

00:47:57.120 talking about

00:47:57.700 and

00:47:59.500 then I went on

00:48:00.780 Good Morning Britain

00:48:01.340 the next day

00:48:01.920 and it's a weird experience

00:48:02.920 because

00:48:03.280 they book you a hotel

00:48:04.920 in central London

00:48:05.880 they get you a taxi

00:48:06.800 they drive you over

00:48:07.700 you turn up

00:48:08.320 and

00:48:10.300 you get to this

00:48:11.300 posh hotel

00:48:12.100 you know

00:48:12.800 and really

00:48:13.320 you want to be

00:48:14.220 you know

00:48:14.480 you have a

00:48:15.180 have a meal

00:48:16.200 have a glass of wine

00:48:17.380 go to bed

00:48:17.880 wake up fresh

00:48:18.540 the next morning

00:48:19.020 but you can't

00:48:19.840 because your brain

00:48:21.020 is racing

00:48:21.460 so all that happens

00:48:22.720 is you're lying there

00:48:24.160 all night

00:48:24.800 and you're just

00:48:25.420 all of the shit

00:48:27.240 is just running

00:48:27.860 in your head

00:48:28.340 like you're just

00:48:28.940 over and over

00:48:29.720 and over

00:48:30.240 and over

00:48:30.560 and you're rehearsing

00:48:31.220 you're thinking

00:48:31.580 what am I going to say

00:48:32.280 and what if this

00:48:32.800 and what if that

00:48:33.360 and what if that

00:48:33.940 and

00:48:35.160 I hate

00:48:36.540 going back to that

00:48:37.880 interview

00:48:38.460 my first time

00:48:39.600 at Good Morning Britain

00:48:40.300 because

00:48:40.800 it's

00:48:42.020 I come across

00:48:42.980 very angry

00:48:43.660 and I did

00:48:45.160 and I was very angry

00:48:46.300 because

00:48:46.760 it was that vindication

00:48:48.400 plus Rebecca Reed

00:48:49.640 who I'm actually

00:48:50.200 quite good friends

00:48:50.940 with since

00:48:51.740 but you know

00:48:52.560 she opened it

00:48:53.320 by completely

00:48:53.840 misrepresenting

00:48:54.780 what had happened

00:48:55.520 and saying that

00:48:56.460 these students

00:48:57.260 thought I wasn't funny

00:48:58.200 when actually

00:48:58.680 they just

00:48:59.260 they had nothing

00:49:00.140 they thought I was funny

00:49:01.120 and that's why

00:49:01.460 but anyway

00:49:01.960 long story short

00:49:03.100 so I'm not

00:49:04.060 well

00:49:04.860 I did as well

00:49:06.180 as I could have done

00:49:06.900 but I'm really

00:49:08.080 not very proud of it

00:49:09.080 because I feel like

00:49:11.160 I don't come across

00:49:12.320 well in that

00:49:12.880 you know

00:49:13.500 but that was a huge

00:49:14.620 moment for the show

00:49:15.420 yeah it was

00:49:16.440 it was

00:49:16.800 it changed the show

00:49:17.800 and then you went on Tucker

00:49:18.760 yeah

00:49:19.280 and I remember

00:49:20.980 Alistair Williams

00:49:21.860 who is now

00:49:22.540 he was a former guest

00:49:23.840 who was a brilliant

00:49:24.460 comedian Alistair

00:49:25.540 going to me

00:49:26.600 it's so exciting

00:49:27.760 that Constantine's

00:49:28.580 on Tucker Carlson

00:49:29.680 did you know

00:49:30.880 who Tucker was

00:49:31.480 at this point

00:49:31.700 no

00:49:31.920 I didn't know

00:49:32.860 I didn't know

00:49:33.580 I didn't

00:49:33.980 it was so

00:49:36.340 removed

00:49:37.220 from the realms

00:49:38.760 of what I knew

00:49:40.560 and my life

00:49:42.160 that I couldn't

00:49:43.060 really process it

00:49:44.020 and the thought

00:49:45.520 of you being

00:49:46.120 on Tucker Carlson

00:49:46.920 it didn't mean

00:49:47.540 anything to me

00:49:48.240 he was just going

00:49:49.080 I can't believe

00:49:49.640 he's on Tucker

00:49:50.280 I can't believe

00:49:51.900 he's on Tucker

00:49:52.260 biggest show

00:49:52.560 in America

00:49:52.940 yeah

00:49:53.220 and also

00:49:54.060 I didn't know

00:49:55.860 what you were going

00:49:56.580 through at the time

00:49:57.360 I just didn't know

00:49:58.460 I didn't know

00:49:59.580 the storm

00:50:02.220 and to an extent

00:50:03.440 I've never experienced that

00:50:04.620 I've experienced

00:50:05.980 some parts of it

00:50:07.040 to a very

00:50:08.840 very minor degree

00:50:09.680 but I've never experienced

00:50:10.940 that type of thing

00:50:12.540 and then the reaction

00:50:13.540 that the comedy industry

00:50:14.480 had to you

00:50:15.120 that was the shock to me

00:50:16.420 that was the biggest shock

00:50:17.840 to me

00:50:18.200 because

00:50:18.800 and you're going to laugh

00:50:20.380 very hard

00:50:20.940 but I was so naive

00:50:22.920 when I turned down

00:50:24.540 that contract

00:50:25.060 I actually

00:50:26.220 I mean

00:50:26.860 it's ridiculous

00:50:27.640 how naive it now sounds

00:50:28.760 but I thought

00:50:29.480 I was taking one

00:50:31.420 for the team

00:50:31.940 I thought

00:50:33.080 I was

00:50:33.820 speaking out

00:50:35.620 for team comedy

00:50:36.300 that's what I thought

00:50:39.300 that's what I thought

00:50:40.700 I thought

00:50:41.040 this is

00:50:41.460 this is what

00:50:42.200 all comedians

00:50:43.080 can get behind

00:50:43.780 you know

00:50:44.700 the idea

00:50:45.600 that we should be able

00:50:46.220 to do jokes on stage

00:50:47.420 and the only censors

00:50:48.900 are ourselves

00:50:49.960 and the audience

00:50:50.600 I thought

00:50:51.800 I'm standing up

00:50:53.380 for us

00:50:54.540 for us

00:50:56.260 the comedy world

00:50:57.060 that's what I thought

00:50:57.740 and what I quickly realised

00:50:59.860 is actually

00:51:00.600 most of the comedy circuit

00:51:03.060 hated me for it

00:51:05.100 they hated me

00:51:06.500 for standing up

00:51:07.780 for free speech

00:51:08.940 in comedy

00:51:10.160 maybe not most

00:51:12.300 I wouldn't say most

00:51:13.740 a lot

00:51:14.340 a lot of people

00:51:15.080 a lot

00:51:15.420 a very vocal

00:51:16.720 and powerful minority

00:51:18.060 yeah

00:51:18.400 I would say

00:51:18.880 but they're so powerful

00:51:20.380 that they might as well

00:51:21.480 be the majority

00:51:22.140 yeah

00:51:22.440 because they're all

00:51:22.960 the TV commissioners

00:51:24.000 they're all the

00:51:24.540 yeah of course

00:51:25.720 they're all the people

00:51:26.700 who run Edinburgh

00:51:27.500 they're all the people

00:51:28.200 who control everything

00:51:29.260 right

00:51:29.600 so

00:51:30.760 that was

00:51:32.080 one of the reasons

00:51:33.300 that I was crying

00:51:34.420 before going on GMB

00:51:35.440 because

00:51:35.800 I didn't expect that

00:51:37.300 no

00:51:37.600 I thought

00:51:38.720 well

00:51:39.080 first of all

00:51:39.700 I never expected it

00:51:40.640 to go viral

00:51:41.080 in the first place

00:51:41.700 but when it did

00:51:42.440 I was like

00:51:43.040 well great

00:51:43.420 I've done something good

00:51:44.360 for the comedy world

00:51:45.180 for the comedy industry

00:51:46.260 and then to see

00:51:47.920 the comedy industry

00:51:49.100 actually be angered

00:51:51.520 by this

00:51:52.120 and misrepresent you

00:51:53.520 and misrepresent me

00:51:54.440 and actually

00:51:54.940 you know what

00:51:55.780 I think probably

00:51:56.660 quite a lot of it

00:51:57.460 was just jealousy

00:51:58.260 completely

00:51:59.240 quite a lot

00:52:00.120 was just jealousy

00:52:00.760 but I think also

00:52:01.580 a big part of it

00:52:02.320 was ideological too

00:52:03.280 which is

00:52:04.060 I'd done the wrong thing

00:52:05.660 you know

00:52:06.460 comedians are not

00:52:07.680 supposed to be

00:52:08.240 about free speech

00:52:08.880 we're supposed to be

00:52:09.480 about avoiding

00:52:10.100 hurting people's feelings

00:52:11.120 and that was a shock

00:52:13.360 which is why

00:52:14.280 no matter what

00:52:15.560 someone's political

00:52:16.340 beliefs are

00:52:17.160 I always have

00:52:18.520 a tremendous amount

00:52:19.320 of empathy

00:52:19.820 for people who

00:52:21.100 find themselves

00:52:21.820 going from

00:52:22.820 obscurity

00:52:23.900 to being in the

00:52:25.080 public eye

00:52:25.600 in that way

00:52:26.120 I don't care

00:52:27.260 who you are

00:52:27.900 I am one of the

00:52:29.100 most mentally

00:52:29.820 resilient people

00:52:30.640 I would say

00:52:31.640 on this planet

00:52:32.180 genuinely

00:52:33.120 I am

00:52:34.440 I've been through

00:52:35.600 a lot

00:52:35.940 and I've learnt

00:52:36.500 a lot

00:52:36.780 and I've done

00:52:37.180 a lot of

00:52:37.540 personal development

00:52:38.260 stuff

00:52:38.600 I'm very mentally

00:52:39.860 resilient

00:52:40.260 I don't care

00:52:41.260 who you are

00:52:41.840 that is

00:52:42.600 difficult

00:52:43.400 it is very

00:52:44.380 difficult

00:52:44.760 and there will

00:52:46.120 be people

00:52:46.460 who can't

00:52:47.200 handle it

00:52:48.000 you know

00:52:48.740 they just can't

00:52:49.600 so when I see

00:52:50.740 people being

00:52:51.520 demonised

00:52:52.260 or treated

00:52:53.700 in this way

00:52:54.160 even when they've

00:52:54.720 done something

00:52:55.040 wrong in the

00:52:55.540 public eye

00:52:55.960 there's a lot

00:52:56.440 of me that

00:52:57.440 I just feel

00:52:58.100 empathy for them

00:52:58.740 because I know

00:52:59.260 how difficult

00:52:59.660 that is

00:53:00.120 yeah

00:53:00.540 and you

00:53:01.260 stop

00:53:02.000 what happens

00:53:03.540 and this is

00:53:04.360 something that

00:53:04.800 I've experienced

00:53:05.500 is that you

00:53:06.560 become a public

00:53:07.340 figure

00:53:07.720 and you're

00:53:08.380 not

00:53:08.640 Constantine

00:53:09.820 anymore

00:53:10.160 you're

00:53:10.780 Constantine

00:53:11.280 kissing

00:53:11.640 and you're

00:53:12.620 a public

00:53:12.980 figure

00:53:13.320 and then

00:53:13.780 you become

00:53:14.500 a public

00:53:15.000 figure

00:53:15.320 for people

00:53:15.740 to comment

00:53:16.180 criticise

00:53:16.860 but it's

00:53:17.220 not really

00:53:17.620 you

00:53:17.900 no it's

00:53:18.220 not you

00:53:18.560 they're

00:53:19.060 criticising

00:53:19.820 a construction

00:53:21.420 an image

00:53:22.420 an avatar

00:53:23.480 and it's

00:53:25.040 very surreal

00:53:26.000 and very

00:53:27.000 bizarre

00:53:27.460 and I

00:53:29.180 remember

00:53:29.500 watching you

00:53:31.440 go through

00:53:32.000 that

00:53:32.320 and also

00:53:34.060 feeling that

00:53:34.700 there wasn't

00:53:35.300 I didn't know

00:53:36.660 what I could

00:53:37.660 do

00:53:38.000 or what I

00:53:39.300 could say

00:53:39.880 well you were

00:53:40.460 very supportive

00:53:41.060 actually

00:53:41.500 was I

00:53:42.080 yeah you were

00:53:42.480 great

00:53:42.720 you were

00:53:43.020 great

00:53:43.180 you

00:53:43.460 and I

00:53:43.880 think

00:53:44.140 I hope

00:53:45.160 you won't

00:53:45.420 mind me

00:53:45.720 saying this

00:53:46.140 but Simon

00:53:46.540 Brodkin

00:53:47.000 who's

00:53:47.560 Lee Nelson

00:53:48.200 and I don't

00:53:48.920 think it was

00:53:49.300 because he

00:53:49.720 was necessarily

00:53:50.160 ideologically aligned

00:53:51.340 with trigonometry

00:53:52.000 I don't think

00:53:52.380 he is

00:53:52.760 it's just

00:53:54.000 him and I

00:53:54.640 gigged the week

00:53:55.300 before and he

00:53:55.980 really liked me

00:53:56.720 and he thought

00:53:57.440 I was good

00:53:57.920 and he's a very

00:53:58.960 famous comedian

00:53:59.620 so at the time

00:54:00.360 for him to reach

00:54:01.060 out to me

00:54:01.560 he spent hours

00:54:02.480 on the phone

00:54:02.900 with me

00:54:03.220 just like

00:54:04.080 reassuring me

00:54:05.140 and consoling me

00:54:05.940 and I got

00:54:06.320 you know

00:54:06.860 I won't name

00:54:07.440 all the names

00:54:07.860 there was a lot

00:54:08.320 of famous comics

00:54:08.940 that got in touch

00:54:09.540 with me

00:54:09.820 and were like

00:54:10.780 keeping my

00:54:11.780 spirits up

00:54:12.420 and you know

00:54:13.220 but yeah

00:54:13.900 your support

00:54:14.440 and the support

00:54:14.940 of a lot of

00:54:15.320 other people

00:54:15.720 really

00:54:16.000 there were

00:54:16.400 lots of people

00:54:17.300 also who were

00:54:17.900 very supportive

00:54:18.460 I shouldn't

00:54:19.320 lose track of that

00:54:21.040 you know

00:54:21.560 and Simon

00:54:21.980 in particular

00:54:22.520 was really

00:54:23.160 really great

00:54:23.860 but anyway

00:54:25.500 that obviously

00:54:26.400 gave the show

00:54:27.120 a big boost

00:54:27.800 and we went

00:54:30.040 this is the very

00:54:30.860 end of 2018

00:54:31.760 and then

00:54:33.780 at this point

00:54:35.740 I think

00:54:36.960 we were starting

00:54:37.620 to get to a point

00:54:38.460 where I think

00:54:38.940 we'd started

00:54:39.460 a patron

00:54:39.980 when we got

00:54:40.760 kicked out of

00:54:41.460 when we left

00:54:42.660 our previous studio

00:54:43.540 and people

00:54:44.680 started supporting

00:54:45.440 us

00:54:45.860 and

00:54:46.740 our first

00:54:48.340 like this was

00:54:49.060 the first time

00:54:49.660 we'd ever actually

00:54:50.440 not

00:54:51.560 we were not

00:54:52.500 taking money

00:54:53.040 out of trigonometry

00:54:53.740 at this point

00:54:54.240 but people were

00:54:55.300 starting to give us

00:54:56.060 money

00:54:56.320 and the money

00:54:57.980 that we were

00:54:58.340 paying Anton

00:54:59.000 the generous

00:54:59.860 500 quid a month

00:55:00.880 was actually

00:55:01.980 not coming from

00:55:02.620 us anymore

00:55:03.040 for the first time

00:55:03.760 no

00:55:03.900 we weren't

00:55:04.580 losing money

00:55:05.440 doing trigonometry

00:55:06.080 no I think

00:55:06.820 we still were

00:55:07.340 actually no

00:55:07.900 because then

00:55:08.440 there was

00:55:08.800 there was other

00:55:09.380 costs

00:55:09.760 oh yeah

00:55:10.180 there was

00:55:10.500 other costs

00:55:10.980 but then what

00:55:12.040 happened is

00:55:12.600 a couple of

00:55:13.260 people came in

00:55:13.920 one of them

00:55:14.880 who messaged

00:55:17.060 us saying

00:55:17.540 guys I love

00:55:19.160 what you do

00:55:19.660 I want to

00:55:20.620 support you

00:55:21.240 and I think

00:55:22.460 the subtext

00:55:23.220 was your show

00:55:23.780 looks and sounds

00:55:24.400 shit

00:55:24.720 what can I do

00:55:25.500 and he bought

00:55:26.740 us

00:55:27.100 cameras

00:55:28.620 he bought us

00:55:29.120 new cameras

00:55:29.620 what about

00:55:30.280 microphones

00:55:30.740 did he buy

00:55:31.120 microphones as

00:55:31.700 well

00:55:31.820 no cameras

00:55:32.740 it was just

00:55:33.520 cameras

00:55:33.920 right

00:55:34.460 it was just

00:55:34.920 cameras

00:55:35.280 and I think

00:55:36.980 we ourselves

00:55:37.660 put more money

00:55:38.560 into it

00:55:39.020 and bought

00:55:39.420 lapel mics

00:55:39.980 for the first

00:55:40.440 time as well

00:55:41.000 not these ones

00:55:41.720 because these

00:55:42.040 are much better

00:55:42.500 no no yeah

00:55:43.120 they were

00:55:43.700 massive

00:55:44.320 they were

00:55:44.600 this big

00:55:45.180 yeah

00:55:45.480 and we got

00:55:46.760 those

00:55:47.160 and then we

00:55:48.760 started recording

00:55:49.480 at the new

00:55:50.720 space

00:55:51.080 right

00:55:52.000 yeah

00:55:52.320 and then

00:55:53.540 and that's

00:55:54.340 where we got

00:55:55.000 you know

00:55:55.340 we made

00:55:55.660 progress

00:55:55.980 that's where

00:55:56.360 we got

00:55:56.640 Douglas

00:55:57.020 yeah

00:55:57.480 eventually

00:55:57.880 for a second

00:55:58.440 time

00:55:58.760 yeah

00:55:59.000 right

00:55:59.480 we had a lot

00:56:01.040 of our

00:56:01.260 Peter Hitchens

00:56:02.000 Peter Hitchens

00:56:02.600 yeah

00:56:03.340 we got Hitch

00:56:04.020 in there

00:56:04.380 we got

00:56:04.780 Starkey

00:56:05.420 yeah we

00:56:06.740 we had

00:56:07.100 Starkey

00:56:07.700 in there

00:56:08.140 we had

00:56:08.660 Zuby

00:56:09.100 Zuby

00:56:09.980 Dinah

00:56:11.580 Fleischman

00:56:12.100 again

00:56:12.360 Anaya

00:56:12.880 yeah

00:56:13.520 Jeffrey Miller

00:56:15.460 Jeffrey Miller

00:56:16.360 who was great

00:56:16.960 yeah

00:56:17.400 we did a lot

00:56:18.540 Mike Martin

00:56:19.160 like a lot

00:56:19.760 of our great

00:56:20.600 interviews were

00:56:21.160 done in that

00:56:21.580 and Ella Hill

00:56:22.840 yeah

00:56:23.260 that was a

00:56:24.160 brilliant

00:56:24.420 that is

00:56:24.820 I don't know

00:56:26.160 what other

00:56:26.600 interviews we're

00:56:27.040 going to do

00:56:27.440 I suspect

00:56:28.120 that will be

00:56:29.860 one of

00:56:30.180 interviewing Ella

00:56:31.220 in that way

00:56:31.920 will be one of

00:56:33.260 the most

00:56:33.660 things that I'm

00:56:35.420 most proud of

00:56:36.060 in my life

00:56:36.620 decades from now

00:56:38.620 yeah

00:56:38.940 decades from now

00:56:39.960 I mean

00:56:41.200 Ella is brilliant

00:56:42.640 is an important

00:56:43.760 subject that no one

00:56:44.560 wanted to talk about

00:56:45.440 and we interviewed

00:56:46.720 the survivor

00:56:47.320 of a group

00:56:48.960 of mass rape

00:56:50.660 basically

00:56:51.180 yeah

00:56:51.560 and it was funny

00:56:52.860 yeah

00:56:53.400 like I

00:56:54.940 I'm so proud

00:56:56.060 of that

00:56:56.340 yeah

00:56:56.580 it's an

00:56:57.460 incredible

00:56:57.840 interview

00:56:58.240 it's an

00:56:58.760 incredible

00:56:59.100 interview

00:56:59.540 and that

00:57:01.360 period

00:57:01.880 where

00:57:02.540 it was

00:57:03.220 between

00:57:03.880 the

00:57:04.160 lockdowns

00:57:04.960 where we

00:57:05.740 came out

00:57:06.320 and we

00:57:06.700 did

00:57:07.040 in-person

00:57:08.060 interviews

00:57:09.260 that was a

00:57:09.760 very special

00:57:10.400 time

00:57:10.760 we interviewed

00:57:11.240 Lawrence again

00:57:11.900 I think that's

00:57:14.280 on something

00:57:14.760 ridiculous

00:57:15.240 like half a

00:57:15.940 million views

00:57:16.440 yeah

00:57:16.600 and the first

00:57:17.120 time we

00:57:17.440 interviewed

00:57:17.620 Lawrence as

00:57:18.140 well

00:57:18.260 and Lawrence

00:57:18.880 has gone

00:57:19.220 in his own

00:57:19.580 direction

00:57:19.860 since but at

00:57:20.480 the time

00:57:20.800 it was a

00:57:21.280 it was a

00:57:22.040 great moment

00:57:22.560 yeah it was

00:57:23.120 it was a great

00:57:23.620 moment

00:57:23.980 and people

00:57:24.540 were reaching out

00:57:25.240 to us saying

00:57:25.760 oh I love

00:57:26.260 your show

00:57:26.600 and these

00:57:26.880 are like

00:57:27.140 people that

00:57:27.660 we would

00:57:28.200 you know

00:57:28.920 respect

00:57:29.240 yeah

00:57:29.700 so we

00:57:30.660 interviewed

00:57:31.040 Lawrence

00:57:31.720 I sure

00:57:33.860 can be

00:57:34.660 it was

00:57:35.380 it was a

00:57:35.860 brilliant

00:57:36.120 time

00:57:36.500 and still

00:57:37.980 to contextualize

00:57:39.260 it

00:57:39.480 you were still

00:57:40.720 teaching

00:57:41.080 yeah

00:57:41.560 you were still

00:57:42.020 doing overnight

00:57:42.540 radio

00:57:42.960 you were still

00:57:43.800 I think

00:57:44.320 no at this

00:57:45.200 point because

00:57:45.880 this was

00:57:46.460 we haven't even

00:57:47.720 touched on

00:57:48.180 lockdown

00:57:48.480 yeah well we

00:57:49.300 haven't got to

00:57:49.780 lockdown yet

00:57:50.280 hold on

00:57:50.860 yeah

00:57:51.120 so

00:57:51.800 before lockdown

00:57:52.680 so before lockdown

00:57:53.880 you were still

00:57:54.760 teaching

00:57:55.060 yeah I was still

00:57:55.780 teaching one day

00:57:56.480 a week

00:57:56.800 yeah

00:57:57.100 I wasn't doing

00:57:58.140 the radio anymore

00:57:58.740 I'd quit the radio

00:57:59.480 at that point

00:58:00.020 right

00:58:00.180 but I was still

00:58:01.100 teaching

00:58:01.560 and gigging

00:58:02.140 six nights a week

00:58:02.720 and I was gigging

00:58:03.240 six nights a week

00:58:03.880 right

00:58:03.900 and I was

00:58:04.760 the thing I talked

00:58:05.980 about with Jeff

00:58:06.680 he was during

00:58:07.600 that period

00:58:08.040 yeah

00:58:08.300 record two interviews

00:58:09.460 drive to another

00:58:10.100 city do a gig

00:58:10.920 wake up the next

00:58:11.820 day drive to

00:58:12.460 another city do a

00:58:13.300 gig drive back

00:58:14.260 to London

00:58:14.720 wake up after

00:58:15.860 five hours sleep

00:58:16.440 go to the battle

00:58:17.120 of ideas

00:58:17.540 all day there

00:58:18.580 go to bed

00:58:19.460 wake up next

00:58:20.160 day gig

00:58:21.020 yeah

00:58:21.520 yeah

00:58:22.160 and that

00:58:23.340 that was brutal

00:58:24.420 yeah

00:58:24.800 that was the treadmill

00:58:25.720 that we were on

00:58:26.460 that was absolutely brutal

00:58:28.180 that's what we were doing

00:58:29.260 and then

00:58:30.040 COVID hit

00:58:32.060 yeah

00:58:32.600 I remember when COVID hit

00:58:34.800 I was at the top secret

00:58:35.840 comedy club

00:58:36.540 probably the best comedy club

00:58:38.360 in the UK

00:58:39.920 love it to pieces

00:58:41.200 and I was doing it

00:58:43.500 and I was emceeing

00:58:44.460 a gig

00:58:45.380 and I think it was on Monday

00:58:47.600 I can't remember the exact date

00:58:49.240 I think it was the 31st of March

00:58:50.520 but someone will probably correct me

00:58:51.700 on when it was

00:58:52.240 and Boris Johnson

00:58:54.000 had just told everyone

00:58:54.900 to go home

00:58:55.540 to literally go home

00:58:56.700 the society was shutting down

00:58:58.480 and it was the last gig

00:59:00.420 that we were

00:59:01.640 I was

00:59:02.140 I was there

00:59:02.680 and

00:59:03.840 the gig

00:59:05.300 carried on

00:59:06.020 because the next day

00:59:06.820 it was done

00:59:07.280 and

00:59:08.840 I remember the emcee

00:59:11.000 didn't turn up

00:59:11.720 because she couldn't get an Uber

00:59:13.340 so

00:59:14.620 I

00:59:15.180 effectively

00:59:15.960 closed the gig

00:59:16.940 myself

00:59:17.340 so I emceed it

00:59:19.000 and then I did 20 minutes

00:59:20.020 at the end

00:59:20.440 to close the gig

00:59:21.420 and it was just

00:59:23.540 it felt like end of days

00:59:25.040 and I remember

00:59:26.760 there were this lovely

00:59:27.520 sweet old couple

00:59:28.560 who came to watch

00:59:30.060 the gig

00:59:30.540 and afterwards

00:59:30.980 they walked past me

00:59:32.620 and they were like

00:59:33.020 we really enjoyed this

00:59:34.260 and I remember thinking

00:59:35.000 to myself

00:59:35.960 what are you doing here

00:59:36.960 what are you doing here

00:59:39.120 this

00:59:39.400 this is dangerous

00:59:40.480 legitimately dangerous

00:59:41.820 what you're doing

00:59:42.440 why are you here

00:59:44.060 and it was weird

00:59:46.200 there was just

00:59:46.820 an air of

00:59:47.620 terror

00:59:48.520 in the room

00:59:49.160 but also

00:59:50.140 a feeling of

00:59:51.200 we need to be here

00:59:52.500 because we don't know

00:59:53.460 when we're going to be able

00:59:54.000 to do this again

00:59:54.800 and it was a very

00:59:57.660 very bizarre time

00:59:59.060 how was that for you

01:00:01.740 well

01:00:02.640 you know

01:00:03.260 I've been proven right on it

01:00:04.280 I said it's just a bit of flu

01:00:05.300 doesn't it

01:00:05.680 I mean

01:00:07.080 that was my attitude

01:00:08.000 I think

01:00:08.400 the two of us

01:00:09.220 I think I'm much more risk

01:00:10.300 hungry

01:00:11.480 and you're much more risk averse

01:00:12.800 so you've been proven right

01:00:15.100 over the last couple of years

01:00:16.120 but again

01:00:17.220 to emphasise

01:00:17.940 when lockdown hit

01:00:19.500 we hadn't taken any money

01:00:23.640 for us

01:00:24.920 in any way

01:00:26.000 we still were putting

01:00:27.020 our own money into it

01:00:28.040 the only thing was

01:00:29.220 that was the thing

01:00:30.640 that really was horrible

01:00:31.640 about lockdown

01:00:32.600 what happened was

01:00:33.460 we had just got

01:00:35.220 our first big sponsor

01:00:37.240 which was QT

01:00:38.680 if you remember

01:00:39.280 advertising QT

01:00:40.260 and they agreed to pay us

01:00:41.800 an amount

01:00:42.420 which meant

01:00:42.980 that we could

01:00:43.500 increase Anton's salary

01:00:44.800 and for the first time

01:00:46.460 in the history of the show

01:00:47.740 nearly two years

01:00:49.820 after we started

01:00:53.420 we could actually

01:00:55.180 take a little bit

01:00:56.280 of money

01:00:56.580 for ourselves

01:00:57.500 I was so thrilled

01:00:58.620 at that

01:00:58.940 and I remember

01:01:00.120 in early April

01:01:01.640 just before lockdown

01:01:02.660 I sent my second

01:01:03.980 our second invoice

01:01:05.020 to QT

01:01:06.920 to our sponsor

01:01:08.040 to get the second

01:01:09.180 batch of money

01:01:10.380 and he wrote back

01:01:11.860 saying

01:01:12.140 I've just laid off

01:01:12.920 half my team

01:01:13.600 I'm sorry

01:01:14.220 I can't see this through

01:01:15.400 so having just started

01:01:17.820 to get to a point

01:01:19.160 where actually

01:01:20.000 we could afford

01:01:20.920 to do this full time

01:01:22.000 because it's not about

01:01:22.680 putting money in the bank

01:01:24.100 it was about

01:01:24.660 allowing us

01:01:25.380 just to do this

01:01:26.260 right

01:01:26.800 that was what

01:01:27.280 we needed the money for

01:01:28.240 and it's gone

01:01:29.480 and lockdown's hit

01:01:31.640 and the comedy club

01:01:33.640 where we were recording

01:01:34.320 said you can't record

01:01:35.360 and you remember

01:01:36.840 people were very

01:01:37.620 very scared

01:01:38.120 about COVID

01:01:38.620 at the time

01:01:39.180 of course

01:01:39.660 understandably so

01:01:40.640 understandably so

01:01:41.380 so

01:01:42.060 no guest would come in

01:01:44.400 and we had to do

01:01:45.660 everything remotely

01:01:46.320 yeah

01:01:46.860 right

01:01:47.480 I remember

01:01:48.840 being locked

01:01:50.580 being in my flat

01:01:51.960 and going from

01:01:53.480 gigging six nights

01:01:54.460 a week

01:01:54.800 working

01:01:55.360 working

01:01:55.800 working

01:01:56.200 to build this career

01:01:57.080 to build relationships

01:01:58.120 to get to the point

01:01:59.540 where I was constantly

01:02:00.220 working

01:02:00.720 where I was earning

01:02:02.200 okay money

01:02:03.460 for the first time

01:02:04.280 in my life

01:02:04.880 okay money

01:02:06.360 I'm not talking

01:02:07.620 big money

01:02:08.140 I'm talking

01:02:08.740 okay money

01:02:09.660 and overnight

01:02:11.320 it was gone

01:02:13.200 and we were making

01:02:15.260 I was at that point

01:02:15.940 I was making

01:02:16.340 500 quid a month

01:02:17.460 from trigonometry

01:02:18.140 yeah

01:02:18.440 I'd quit my teaching job

01:02:20.180 yeah

01:02:20.460 and I was living

01:02:21.680 on 500 quid a month

01:02:23.040 yeah

01:02:23.400 which didn't cover rent

01:02:25.240 yeah

01:02:25.600 which didn't cover bills

01:02:26.600 yeah

01:02:26.860 which didn't cover food

01:02:28.020 yeah

01:02:28.280 which didn't cover

01:02:29.140 any of that

01:02:29.800 yeah

01:02:30.020 and I remember

01:02:30.800 looking around

01:02:31.920 the four walls

01:02:33.460 of my little flat

01:02:35.240 in the Haringame

01:02:36.760 going

01:02:37.140 I'm fucked

01:02:38.960 I can't go

01:02:40.460 go back to teaching

01:02:41.360 that's done

01:02:42.960 stand-up's finished

01:02:44.800 possibly forever

01:02:45.940 is this the start

01:02:47.340 of a new world

01:02:47.940 where

01:02:48.220 this virus

01:02:49.480 spreads everywhere

01:02:50.220 and is deadly

01:02:50.880 and what

01:02:51.500 what are we gonna do

01:02:52.520 and I just remember

01:02:55.680 just being

01:02:56.380 overwhelmed

01:02:57.260 by this sense

01:02:58.160 of complete

01:02:59.040 hopelessness

01:02:59.860 and I remember

01:03:01.080 sinking into

01:03:02.640 a feeling of despair

01:03:03.600 and that's when

01:03:04.640 you decided to

01:03:05.280 break up with

01:03:05.700 your girlfriend

01:03:06.100 yeah

01:03:06.560 yeah

01:03:07.560 and then

01:03:08.940 yeah

01:03:09.240 and then

01:03:09.960 you know

01:03:10.780 and there was

01:03:11.240 a number of things

01:03:12.280 in my life

01:03:12.860 that didn't work

01:03:13.800 and we broke up

01:03:15.180 and it

01:03:15.560 it was

01:03:16.380 it was the right

01:03:16.940 thing for both

01:03:17.660 of us

01:03:18.180 but

01:03:19.340 but just

01:03:21.220 looking around

01:03:23.440 and realizing

01:03:24.340 that everything

01:03:25.300 had changed

01:03:25.920 and I remember

01:03:27.040 comedians going

01:03:27.760 oh this is only

01:03:28.580 going to be

01:03:28.920 two or three weeks

01:03:29.920 and I knew

01:03:31.600 everything had

01:03:32.520 changed

01:03:33.300 I remember

01:03:34.420 being in bed

01:03:35.200 one day

01:03:35.700 and going

01:03:37.060 and this was

01:03:38.200 early April

01:03:39.020 and going

01:03:40.320 no this is

01:03:41.240 this is permanent

01:03:42.100 because the way

01:03:43.000 I saw it

01:03:43.460 there were only

01:03:43.820 three ways out

01:03:44.560 of this

01:03:44.820 either we had

01:03:45.340 a vaccine

01:03:45.900 there was

01:03:46.700 there had been

01:03:47.020 at that point

01:03:47.600 no vaccine

01:03:48.100 against the

01:03:48.520 coronavirus

01:03:48.880 or

01:03:50.540 what happens

01:03:53.340 is the virus

01:03:54.420 is not as

01:03:55.420 potent as we

01:03:56.060 thought

01:03:56.360 and at that

01:03:57.280 time it

01:03:57.660 got into

01:03:58.060 the care

01:03:58.440 homes

01:03:58.800 and it

01:03:59.100 was really

01:03:59.440 bad at the

01:03:59.940 time

01:04:00.060 yeah

01:04:00.280 and thousands

01:04:01.360 of people

01:04:01.800 were dying

01:04:02.240 every week

01:04:02.800 from it

01:04:03.120 and I was

01:04:03.380 like well

01:04:03.660 that's not

01:04:04.080 going to

01:04:04.320 happen

01:04:04.600 or the

01:04:05.940 government

01:04:06.240 are just

01:04:06.640 going to

01:04:06.900 let it

01:04:07.180 rip

01:04:07.440 and that

01:04:08.700 wasn't

01:04:08.940 going to

01:04:09.160 happen

01:04:09.400 either

01:04:09.720 so

01:04:10.160 and then

01:04:11.380 do you

01:04:11.580 remember

01:04:11.860 Boris Johnson

01:04:12.620 got burial

01:04:13.160 with it

01:04:13.540 and was

01:04:13.800 hospitalized

01:04:14.340 and then

01:04:16.640 that's when

01:04:17.220 I was thinking

01:04:17.720 no this

01:04:18.180 is

01:04:18.440 this is

01:04:20.260 really serious

01:04:21.580 and everything

01:04:22.880 has changed

01:04:23.460 and I remember

01:04:24.520 talking to a

01:04:25.160 friend of mine

01:04:25.700 who made the

01:04:26.460 point that

01:04:27.040 what we're

01:04:28.360 going to have

01:04:28.880 now is

01:04:29.700 it's going to

01:04:30.160 be like AIDS

01:04:30.820 there was a

01:04:31.380 pre-AIDS world

01:04:32.000 and there's a

01:04:32.420 post-AIDS world

01:04:33.200 and that's what

01:04:34.400 it was going to

01:04:34.760 be like with

01:04:35.180 COVID

01:04:35.420 there's going to

01:04:35.820 be pre-COVID

01:04:36.520 and post-COVID

01:04:37.240 and that's the

01:04:37.920 way it is

01:04:38.360 and that's

01:04:38.860 what's proven

01:04:39.300 to be

01:04:39.660 well here's

01:04:40.720 the thing

01:04:41.080 with lockdown

01:04:42.040 and COVID

01:04:42.560 is for all

01:04:43.860 the terrible

01:04:44.440 stuff that

01:04:44.940 you know

01:04:45.540 we've talked

01:04:45.940 about it on

01:04:46.360 the show

01:04:46.640 a lot

01:04:46.980 I think

01:04:50.400 it's fair

01:04:50.760 to say

01:04:51.260 that COVID

01:04:52.860 saved us

01:04:54.800 and made us

01:04:56.060 I can tell you

01:04:57.680 COVID saved my

01:04:58.380 marriage for example

01:04:59.140 if I had

01:05:00.380 continued working

01:05:01.340 in that way

01:05:02.000 that we were

01:05:02.460 just talking

01:05:02.900 about

01:05:03.240 it was going

01:05:04.520 downhill

01:05:04.980 rapidly

01:05:05.680 because I

01:05:06.280 just wasn't

01:05:06.860 I wasn't

01:05:07.480 spending any

01:05:08.200 time with my

01:05:08.660 wife because

01:05:09.020 I just didn't

01:05:09.440 have any

01:05:09.740 energy to do

01:05:10.400 it

01:05:10.560 and emotionally

01:05:11.420 I wasn't

01:05:11.860 there

01:05:12.040 I wasn't

01:05:12.300 present

01:05:12.560 because I

01:05:12.880 was constantly

01:05:13.440 on my way

01:05:14.400 somewhere

01:05:14.780 on my way

01:05:15.840 you know

01:05:16.260 we were

01:05:16.540 sitting last

01:05:17.820 night just

01:05:18.300 talking

01:05:18.660 and I

01:05:19.000 remembered

01:05:19.400 driving home

01:05:20.640 from a gig

01:05:21.780 and I literally

01:05:23.120 felt that I had

01:05:24.360 so little time

01:05:25.120 I got an empty

01:05:26.340 water bottle

01:05:26.840 and I peed

01:05:27.820 into it while

01:05:28.400 driving on the

01:05:29.060 motorway

01:05:29.420 do you know

01:05:29.940 how fucking

01:05:30.240 dangerous that is

01:05:31.140 depends how big

01:05:32.300 your dick is

01:05:32.760 I suppose

01:05:33.120 well not for me

01:05:34.020 but yeah

01:05:34.480 but no

01:05:35.960 yeah

01:05:36.260 yeah

01:05:37.020 but it's also

01:05:38.000 a reflection

01:05:38.460 of a state

01:05:38.980 of mind

01:05:39.300 I just couldn't

01:05:39.820 fit it

01:05:40.080 anyway

01:05:40.320 it's a reflection

01:05:42.560 of a state

01:05:43.000 of mind

01:05:43.380 and it's a reflection

01:05:44.220 of where you are

01:05:45.080 and you're not

01:05:45.840 you're not a good

01:05:46.520 partner

01:05:46.940 no

01:05:47.480 to anyone

01:05:48.640 in that situation

01:05:49.520 no

01:05:50.040 I'm frankly

01:05:50.720 when I think

01:05:51.180 back to it

01:05:51.620 I'm amazed

01:05:52.100 like we've

01:05:53.520 we held this

01:05:54.100 together

01:05:54.440 we held our

01:05:55.120 relationship

01:05:55.560 well not in your

01:05:56.400 case but you know

01:05:57.140 it was really

01:05:59.560 really tough

01:06:00.140 and the fact

01:06:00.980 that lockdown

01:06:01.420 happened

01:06:01.940 and hey

01:06:03.540 you know

01:06:04.000 you want a gig

01:06:04.540 well you can't

01:06:05.360 yeah

01:06:05.600 you want to do

01:06:06.640 this you can't

01:06:07.480 yeah

01:06:07.700 so you might as

01:06:08.560 well do

01:06:09.960 what we started

01:06:11.300 doing which is

01:06:11.940 live streams

01:06:12.400 which we'd been

01:06:12.960 doing like once

01:06:13.680 a week up to

01:06:14.160 that point

01:06:14.580 and even then

01:06:15.260 sporadically

01:06:15.900 sporadically

01:06:16.640 and we just

01:06:17.200 look we just

01:06:17.800 went look we've

01:06:18.340 got nothing else

01:06:18.820 to do let's do

01:06:19.720 two interviews

01:06:20.300 a week and

01:06:21.560 let's do live

01:06:22.680 streams and then

01:06:23.940 we got Anton

01:06:24.540 on board with the

01:06:25.220 live streams over

01:06:25.920 time as well and

01:06:27.000 it just became a

01:06:28.340 thing that people

01:06:28.980 and now we call

01:06:29.720 them raw

01:06:30.260 it's a separate

01:06:31.580 show which will

01:06:32.920 probably go further

01:06:33.840 and further in its

01:06:34.540 own direction over

01:06:35.280 time while the

01:06:36.160 interviews go further

01:06:37.340 and we'll talk

01:06:37.820 about that later

01:06:39.040 on you know

01:06:40.620 and that was a

01:06:42.980 huge moment for

01:06:43.680 us and that was

01:06:44.800 the first time

01:06:45.580 when we actually

01:06:46.540 started to make

01:06:47.440 enough money

01:06:47.940 cover our costs

01:06:49.220 and so that we

01:06:50.220 could do the full

01:06:50.780 time

01:06:51.040 yeah

01:06:51.380 yeah

01:06:51.980 and even then

01:06:53.120 there was a

01:06:53.580 perception in the

01:06:54.280 industry that we

01:06:55.100 were making a lot

01:06:55.740 of money at that

01:06:56.260 point we were

01:06:56.760 no no no

01:06:57.540 we were paying

01:06:59.120 I think we went

01:07:01.160 from paying Anton

01:07:01.860 500 quid to paying

01:07:02.920 him a thousand

01:07:03.380 quid a month

01:07:03.860 for full-time

01:07:04.860 work

01:07:05.240 yeah

01:07:05.580 it was full-time

01:07:06.880 yeah

01:07:07.160 it was insane

01:07:07.960 I remember

01:07:08.360 literally sitting

01:07:09.520 down right before

01:07:10.700 lockdown because at

01:07:11.440 this point we were

01:07:11.900 already thinking we

01:07:12.620 need to go full-time

01:07:13.500 we were in a steak

01:07:15.440 restaurant ironically

01:07:16.420 yeah

01:07:16.900 with Anton being a

01:07:17.960 vegetarian and I

01:07:19.060 remember saying I

01:07:19.740 mean it's ridiculous

01:07:20.500 and we laugh about it

01:07:21.560 saying this now I

01:07:22.980 said to him Anton what

01:07:24.140 is the least amount

01:07:25.040 of money we need to

01:07:25.880 pay you to do this

01:07:26.900 yeah

01:07:27.360 because that's the

01:07:28.620 situation yeah

01:07:29.560 we needed to take it

01:07:30.900 full-time but we

01:07:31.700 couldn't afford to

01:07:32.440 yeah

01:07:32.720 and Anton came

01:07:33.800 up with some

01:07:34.280 ridiculous figure

01:07:35.100 like a thousand

01:07:35.820 pounds which you

01:07:36.520 can't live off in

01:07:37.220 central London

01:07:37.780 no

01:07:38.120 right

01:07:38.700 that doesn't even

01:07:39.560 cover rent

01:07:40.040 no but that was

01:07:41.220 that was the

01:07:42.060 moment when we

01:07:44.640 sort of went okay

01:07:45.600 we're doing this

01:07:46.600 yeah we're doing

01:07:47.520 this and actually

01:07:48.620 my second appearance

01:07:49.980 of Good Morning

01:07:50.500 Britain I'm very

01:07:51.840 pleased with because

01:07:52.800 it ties into the

01:07:53.780 story of Anton

01:07:54.520 joining us because

01:07:55.340 he was doing part-time

01:07:56.600 work at the time

01:07:57.360 and I just did this

01:07:59.560 thing with what's

01:08:01.640 his face Adil Ray

01:08:02.620 and Dr.

01:08:06.300 Shola where I

01:08:08.560 mean you know

01:08:09.620 they got wrecked

01:08:10.320 yeah they got

01:08:11.140 absolutely wrecked

01:08:12.180 by what I'd said

01:08:12.960 and it was really

01:08:13.620 good and I was

01:08:14.360 calm and I was

01:08:15.000 measured and I was

01:08:15.700 funny and I was

01:08:16.440 playful but I

01:08:17.360 absolutely destroyed

01:08:18.340 them right and I

01:08:20.080 sent a message to

01:08:21.140 Anton saying Anton I

01:08:21.940 think we need to make

01:08:22.580 a video of this this

01:08:23.760 was like what in the

01:08:24.600 morning first thing

01:08:25.800 8 a.m.

01:08:27.680 and Anton had just

01:08:28.740 got to work yeah and

01:08:30.140 he'd got in and

01:08:31.060 this is the story that

01:08:32.100 he always loves to

01:08:32.960 tell which is

01:08:33.320 hilarious he gets in

01:08:34.260 he sits down at his

01:08:35.660 desk he gets the

01:08:36.780 message from me having

01:08:37.740 just like made a

01:08:38.560 coffee for himself and

01:08:40.160 I go Anton we've got

01:08:40.960 this thing that if we

01:08:41.620 put it out it could go

01:08:42.540 viral and he goes

01:08:45.180 back to his desk

01:08:45.900 picks up all his

01:08:46.880 shit at his job and

01:08:47.980 just walks out and

01:08:49.040 he goes I'll be back

01:08:49.960 and he didn't come

01:08:51.540 back that day and I

01:08:52.740 think that's kind of

01:08:53.460 when you knew you

01:08:54.060 were all in right

01:08:54.720 and then lockdown

01:08:57.660 and then that's when

01:08:59.160 the show really took

01:08:59.900 off yeah and the

01:09:00.860 show took off over

01:09:01.680 lockdown the first

01:09:02.900 lockdown the first

01:09:03.920 lockdown and the

01:09:05.360 thing that really

01:09:06.520 meant that we could

01:09:08.940 really take our foot

01:09:10.160 and put our foot on

01:09:11.360 the gas was that we

01:09:12.480 embrace remote

01:09:13.240 interviews because

01:09:14.380 before then we'd

01:09:15.200 been like remote

01:09:15.840 interviews were crap

01:09:16.840 and they're not as

01:09:17.580 good as in person

01:09:18.340 and we know that to

01:09:19.380 be the case

01:09:19.780 they're not as

01:09:20.240 good as in person

01:09:20.800 that's just the

01:09:21.260 simple truth of it

01:09:22.040 but every interview

01:09:23.500 was a remote

01:09:24.040 interview no one

01:09:25.480 was doing in person

01:09:26.400 so all of a sudden

01:09:27.960 you could do a

01:09:29.360 remote interview and

01:09:30.300 then we got some

01:09:31.000 really big guests

01:09:31.860 Scott Adams came

01:09:32.620 on we got

01:09:34.100 Gadsad we got

01:09:35.780 some huge people

01:09:37.220 on and you know

01:09:40.020 Deborah So

01:09:40.720 Deborah came on

01:09:41.700 all these people

01:09:42.660 that we'd been

01:09:43.200 watching on Rogan

01:09:44.260 and Ruben all of

01:09:45.580 a sudden were

01:09:46.220 appearing on our

01:09:47.980 show and it was

01:09:49.340 really really

01:09:50.440 really exciting

01:09:51.520 for us

01:09:52.100 yeah for us

01:09:52.780 not for them

01:09:53.260 but what I also

01:09:55.200 mean is the

01:09:56.320 reason I bring it

01:09:57.020 up is when the

01:09:58.020 first lockdown it

01:09:58.720 only lasted a

01:09:59.360 couple of months

01:09:59.880 but it radically

01:10:01.420 transformed the

01:10:02.200 show yeah it

01:10:03.080 meant that we all

01:10:04.080 went full-time at

01:10:04.840 this point again

01:10:05.740 not making much

01:10:06.560 money but we had

01:10:07.440 enough money just

01:10:08.420 to make just to

01:10:09.600 not have to do

01:10:10.620 other things that's

01:10:11.720 all it was yeah

01:10:12.520 right just just so

01:10:14.020 we could not have

01:10:15.300 to do other things

01:10:16.000 and that's the

01:10:17.100 point at which we

01:10:17.820 went back to the

01:10:18.500 comedy club right

01:10:19.200 as the first

01:10:19.680 lockdown finished

01:10:20.480 and we interviewed

01:10:22.560 Laurence Fox again

01:10:23.480 and we interviewed

01:10:24.260 Zuby this was the

01:10:25.080 BLM you know hype

01:10:26.680 situation Aisha

01:10:28.180 Canby in Iafal

01:10:29.280 Aaron Iman a lot

01:10:30.540 of people who were

01:10:31.200 critical of this

01:10:31.900 movement and we

01:10:33.460 and we were frankly

01:10:34.340 at this point we

01:10:35.140 were like okay we

01:10:36.220 know what we're

01:10:36.700 doing yeah we

01:10:37.860 know what we

01:10:38.400 believe we know

01:10:39.360 who we want to

01:10:39.940 talk to and we

01:10:40.940 don't really care

01:10:41.600 what other people

01:10:42.120 think about it

01:10:42.660 yeah and so and

01:10:44.100 so we and so

01:10:44.780 that and that was

01:10:46.000 a really really

01:10:46.900 exciting moment

01:10:47.740 because we could

01:10:49.280 you could feel

01:10:50.400 that you know that

01:10:51.240 everything was really

01:10:52.540 starting to motor

01:10:53.740 and do really well

01:10:54.680 and then we got

01:10:58.040 asked to leave

01:10:58.700 yeah we were asked

01:10:59.900 to leave for a

01:11:01.100 variety of different

01:11:02.140 reasons and

01:11:02.920 look the reason

01:11:04.620 what you you feel

01:11:05.640 hesitant to talk

01:11:06.460 about it is that

01:11:07.420 the club and the

01:11:09.460 people there have

01:11:10.620 done us a lot of

01:11:12.040 good things

01:11:12.620 yeah and we

01:11:13.380 will always be

01:11:14.160 eternally grateful

01:11:14.940 to them for doing

01:11:15.640 that but also the

01:11:17.680 way we left was

01:11:19.300 unpleasant yeah and

01:11:20.800 I think was unfair

01:11:21.840 yeah right yeah

01:11:22.840 and I think we got

01:11:24.740 kicked out of their

01:11:25.680 due to a combination

01:11:26.460 of political

01:11:27.920 differences which we

01:11:28.800 always knew were

01:11:29.360 going to be the

01:11:29.780 case a little bit

01:11:31.360 of jealousy a little

01:11:32.660 bit of just lockdown

01:11:33.580 sending everybody

01:11:34.400 mental yeah but it

01:11:35.500 was very unpleasant

01:11:36.180 yeah it was

01:11:37.140 especially for you

01:11:37.900 yeah because these

01:11:39.380 were your friends

01:11:39.940 yeah because it was

01:11:40.900 unpleasant it was

01:11:41.640 unpleasant for me

01:11:42.540 and and then I

01:11:44.140 remember thinking

01:11:45.180 that we went in

01:11:47.560 we recorded it and

01:11:49.040 we had to leave

01:11:49.820 and just feeling this

01:11:51.680 sense of devastation

01:11:52.920 feeling a sense of

01:11:53.840 shock feeling a sense

01:11:56.100 of bereavement or

01:11:57.780 almost because I had

01:11:58.720 been a community

01:11:59.380 so that happened so I

01:12:02.300 was thinking to

01:12:02.900 myself right well just

01:12:04.000 imagine this for people

01:12:05.020 watching hold on before

01:12:05.960 you say how you like

01:12:07.020 we've just got to a

01:12:09.020 point yeah just got to

01:12:10.620 a point where we can

01:12:11.720 actually we're not

01:12:12.740 making money yeah and

01:12:15.360 I keep mentioning

01:12:16.380 money not because I'm

01:12:17.260 Jewish but just because

01:12:17.940 it's what makes any

01:12:19.460 anything work you need

01:12:20.580 money to make things

01:12:21.300 work right we just

01:12:22.860 started making enough

01:12:24.200 money to pay everybody

01:12:25.880 just enough to cover

01:12:27.880 their basic costs so we

01:12:29.000 could do this full time

01:12:29.940 and make it what it

01:12:30.860 needs to be we're just

01:12:32.840 we've got these big

01:12:33.720 guests the show's

01:12:34.660 exploding it's growing

01:12:35.740 and now we've lost our

01:12:37.420 studio again yeah in

01:12:38.700 the middle of a

01:12:39.280 fucking pandemic and

01:12:40.260 lockdown yeah so we've

01:12:41.620 lost our studio we've

01:12:43.280 lost everything I then

01:12:45.240 get a call from my

01:12:46.220 landlady going we're

01:12:47.400 gonna need you to leave

01:12:48.180 the flat so I not only

01:12:51.100 that I lost my flat

01:12:52.300 and then I remember

01:12:55.160 just just looking around

01:12:57.480 going right they've

01:12:58.560 taken my career's gone

01:13:00.440 I'm no longer at the

01:13:03.160 comedy club that I used

01:13:04.300 to be my relationship

01:13:06.260 has ended and they

01:13:08.000 turn in the flat I

01:13:09.140 can't live in my flat

01:13:10.080 anymore oh you've got

01:13:11.080 left as me yeah and

01:13:12.400 that's depressing and

01:13:13.820 I was thinking anything

01:13:15.060 else yeah anything else

01:13:16.940 yeah and just and going

01:13:18.880 right and then I moved

01:13:19.820 in with a friend as a

01:13:21.360 stopgap and then I

01:13:23.140 remember calling you up

01:13:24.120 I go look I think I've

01:13:25.860 got an idea I've got an

01:13:28.060 idea you went like well

01:13:29.140 what is it what's the

01:13:29.960 solution I go look why

01:13:31.460 don't we rent a flat in

01:13:32.680 London we rent a flat

01:13:34.380 for myself and Anton

01:13:36.860 and we just turn the

01:13:38.640 living room into a

01:13:39.360 studio and then when

01:13:41.880 it's not a studio we'll

01:13:43.040 put everything away and

01:13:44.100 it becomes a living room

01:13:44.940 and that way we're not

01:13:46.100 beholden to people that

01:13:47.540 way we don't have to ask

01:13:48.580 the people that way we're

01:13:49.380 not dependent on

01:13:50.180 favors that all of these

01:13:51.660 different things all of

01:13:54.380 these different things

01:13:55.320 yeah and so after a few

01:13:57.800 weeks of non-stop

01:13:58.860 looking you worked really

01:13:59.980 hard you found a place

01:14:01.060 we moved in we got it

01:14:04.220 designed yeah the way we

01:14:05.820 wanted we threw basically

01:14:07.960 all the money we had at

01:14:09.000 it yeah because we just

01:14:09.640 knew it needed to be

01:14:10.460 right same same as my

01:14:12.020 approach has always been

01:14:12.820 it needs to look good and

01:14:13.960 needs to sound good yeah

01:14:14.960 and it needs to be a good

01:14:16.020 experience for the guest

01:14:16.960 and I remember the first

01:14:20.360 we got these chairs that

01:14:21.300 we're sitting in now and

01:14:22.360 the first time we walked

01:14:23.440 into that studio we sat

01:14:24.800 down Douglas Murray sat

01:14:26.940 down across from us and I

01:14:29.360 just for the first time I

01:14:31.840 just thought wow I have

01:14:35.500 the freedom to ask this

01:14:36.660 great man who I respect so

01:14:38.720 much who we are becoming

01:14:40.420 closer and familiar with

01:14:42.780 anything I want yeah I

01:14:45.140 don't have to worry about

01:14:46.260 some woke comedian behind

01:14:47.520 that door right there in

01:14:48.820 this tiny room you know

01:14:50.480 overhearing me ask the wrong

01:14:51.860 question or whatever I can

01:14:53.860 just say what I think and

01:14:56.040 ask him what he thinks and

01:14:57.960 we can have a conversation

01:14:58.980 and that's when the

01:14:59.880 drilling started and that's

01:15:01.000 when the drilling started

01:15:02.060 yeah yeah that's when the

01:15:06.100 drilling started because

01:15:07.040 there's a there's a you know

01:15:08.080 you're doing the show in a

01:15:09.520 residential space is

01:15:10.540 difficult it's going to

01:15:11.420 cause challenges but

01:15:12.880 nonetheless that was a

01:15:14.300 brilliant first interview

01:15:15.220 it was we had some issues

01:15:17.300 with the sound which we

01:15:18.240 ended up getting around and

01:15:20.160 then it just I think it's

01:15:21.340 steamroll from there it's

01:15:23.060 and then we started doing

01:15:24.020 raw together we used to do

01:15:26.020 it remotely or in my little

01:15:27.940 office at home or whatever

01:15:29.020 we started doing it properly

01:15:31.020 with the good cameras with

01:15:32.360 the right equipment streaming

01:15:33.640 live four nights a week and

01:15:36.560 and that's kind of where it

01:15:39.580 went and went and went to the

01:15:41.840 point where for the first

01:15:44.380 time we actually didn't get

01:15:46.120 kicked out of the studio yeah

01:15:47.560 we moved ourselves yeah yeah

01:15:49.700 because what happened was the

01:15:53.040 flat was great it was lovely but

01:15:55.140 the reality is we had outgrown

01:15:56.220 it yeah and and also you know

01:15:57.860 when we talk people think we're

01:15:59.020 super successful and rich and

01:16:00.660 whatever which we're really not

01:16:01.720 like at the last studio like

01:16:03.600 two months ago we would record

01:16:06.140 the interview in the very room

01:16:07.520 where I would sleep on the

01:16:08.460 sofa yeah you would literally

01:16:09.700 sleep I was sleeping on the

01:16:10.740 I remember saying to one on one

01:16:12.280 of our calls because we do these

01:16:13.560 monthly calls with our top

01:16:15.400 supporters from locals and

01:16:17.720 patreon and subscribe star etc and

01:16:20.340 I remember saying you know I was

01:16:22.220 sleeping on the sofa and one of

01:16:23.240 them laughed he laughed like it

01:16:25.940 was like a joke a joke but two

01:16:28.620 months ago that's what it was

01:16:29.820 yeah Anton had his little room

01:16:31.320 which was packed with all our

01:16:32.500 equipment you could barely walk

01:16:33.700 around it you had your little

01:16:35.360 room yeah and then the living

01:16:36.740 room I would sleep in yeah you

01:16:38.680 know and look like a studio and

01:16:40.760 it looked like a studio it looked

01:16:41.860 like a studio with two bedrooms

01:16:43.380 attached to it yeah and when we

01:16:44.900 wanted to have lunch yeah

01:16:46.380 initially we ate our food off

01:16:47.880 little stools yeah then we got

01:16:49.920 like a portable table that we would

01:16:51.660 put up and then have to get rid

01:16:52.840 of just to have enough space in

01:16:54.200 the studio to put the equipment

01:16:55.340 in do you know I used to do

01:16:56.660 actually Anton I'm sorry about

01:16:58.160 this I shouldn't admit this

01:16:59.380 every time Anton went out on a

01:17:01.460 date I made sure that I put just

01:17:03.080 a picture of Lawrence Fox on his

01:17:04.520 bed just when he came

01:17:05.520 you're such a cunt you always have

01:17:12.340 been haven't you yeah just bring

01:17:14.960 oh you know this is so romantic

01:17:18.900 it was bad enough his room was

01:17:22.900 filled with like lights and studio

01:17:24.640 equipment or whatever do you

01:17:26.780 remember that not just going back

01:17:28.900 for a second that Anton used to

01:17:30.160 carry the entire studio on his back

01:17:31.900 yeah yeah in a previous studio

01:17:33.500 because we couldn't leave anything

01:17:34.540 there we had to just he would get

01:17:36.680 all this and he would be this

01:17:37.700 massive bag yeah on his back yeah

01:17:39.580 and then two little suitcases yeah

01:17:41.300 like a tech turtle yeah turning up

01:17:43.820 and then just unloading and then

01:17:45.660 so finally we were like okay look

01:17:47.780 we got a bit of a nudge in that

01:17:50.460 they were doing massive renovation

01:17:52.080 at the old place and not only not

01:17:54.580 only in the building but also in the

01:17:56.920 road they literally digging up the

01:17:58.860 entire road yeah so I was having to

01:18:01.200 negotiate yeah with Polish builders

01:18:03.620 who could not give less of a fuck yeah

01:18:05.740 but also it was an incredibly rough

01:18:07.260 council estate in East London do you

01:18:09.220 remember when Tim Stanley came Tim

01:18:10.920 Stanley came in we interviewed him

01:18:12.600 it was all great and then he walked

01:18:13.760 out and we just heard like a mental

01:18:15.660 homeless man assaulting him outside

01:18:17.360 well no yeah but not yeah but

01:18:19.160 shouting yeah yeah not literally

01:18:20.560 Tim Stanley trying to get away yeah

01:18:26.080 and there was well first day we moved

01:18:27.520 in there you nearly got mugged yeah I

01:18:29.340 did and then some guy came up to my

01:18:31.280 wife and said oh do you want to come

01:18:32.720 with me I'm a nice clean boy so it was

01:18:36.560 a rough council it was not the greatest

01:18:38.100 place to you know like I remember

01:18:39.600 waiting outside for Douglas Murray just

01:18:41.360 walking past looking around yeah but

01:18:43.580 anyway so and now we've moved to this

01:18:46.860 place where we can have this beautifully

01:18:48.720 designed set for the main interviews

01:18:51.160 yeah and a separate set for all that

01:18:53.000 we're still working on that's going to

01:18:54.220 be different to what it's been so far and

01:18:57.140 I think we should talk about I know we've

01:18:59.320 gone for quite a long time but I think

01:19:00.940 we should talk about where we're going

01:19:03.540 with the show and one of the things that

01:19:05.220 I think we were really keen to do you

01:19:07.680 know is to bring the idea of honest

01:19:09.760 conversations with fascinating people

01:19:11.520 more and more to the forefront of what

01:19:15.100 we do because I think as the show has

01:19:16.620 evolved initially you know the name

01:19:18.400 trigonometry a lot of people are very

01:19:19.700 confused about why we called it that you

01:19:22.460 know I think a lot of people think it's

01:19:24.180 about triggering the libs or whatever

01:19:25.800 people talk about actually it was very

01:19:29.100 much in many ways a trigger warning he

01:19:31.460 was saying look we're going to try and

01:19:32.880 have an honest conversation about

01:19:34.100 difficult subjects and you might find

01:19:36.240 this offensive that it was sort of a

01:19:38.260 defense making is more almost and look

01:19:40.700 we've got to let's be honest as well we

01:19:42.500 were also angry yeah we were we were

01:19:44.480 angry well I was angry at being in a in

01:19:47.320 an industry where I felt misrepresented I

01:19:50.660 think we both did let me speak you can

01:19:52.380 speak for yourself but I've certainly

01:19:53.620 felt misrepresented condescended look down

01:19:58.260 upon sneered at all of these things just

01:20:01.540 because I thought differently and I was

01:20:04.220 fucking done

01:20:06.240 so there was a part of trigonometry

01:20:08.140 which was fuck you at least 100% 100% and

01:20:11.620 I was the same especially after that

01:20:13.220 contract yeah especially after I realized

01:20:15.700 that actually these other people in

01:20:17.960 comedy who I thought idealistically

01:20:20.560 admittedly were this was my team and

01:20:24.620 they were liberal which they're not yeah

01:20:26.240 in the old school sense and they're not

01:20:28.140 liberal they're authoritarians no they're

01:20:30.000 authoritarians you want to shut people up

01:20:31.860 they want to shut down discussion they

01:20:33.780 definitely don't want you to be allowed to

01:20:35.360 have your opinion and and and by the way

01:20:37.740 they hate you for being successful yeah

01:20:39.360 they hate you for being successful yeah

01:20:41.160 you know so there was a big part of it

01:20:44.380 there was there was that fuck you

01:20:45.820 initially and I think you and I have

01:20:47.100 moved on quite a lot yeah we don't feel

01:20:49.260 that way and that's why I think the

01:20:52.440 slogan of honest conversations was

01:20:53.860 fascinating people is in many ways much

01:20:55.960 more representative of the future

01:20:57.420 direction of trigonometry than the word

01:20:59.020 trigonometry yeah you know so you people

01:21:01.560 will see more of that I think coming in

01:21:03.600 and eventually that may even end up

01:21:06.520 being the name of the show yeah I think

01:21:08.760 trigonometry the show and the the title

01:21:12.760 of the show has been brilliant and it's

01:21:15.900 summed up a moment but that moment was

01:21:18.480 very much you know 2018 2019 2020 I think

01:21:24.020 as we want to be moving on what we want

01:21:26.320 to do we've always strived to do this

01:21:29.020 which is bring you know people from the

01:21:31.700 left people who we might who we disagree

01:21:34.220 with but we want it to be a more open

01:21:38.320 place for these people to come but see I

01:21:40.280 mean you say that people from the left

01:21:41.700 people we disagree with we just

01:21:43.040 interviewed will store who's on the left

01:21:44.800 did we disagree with him no no no no no do

01:21:47.360 you know what I mean yeah like so I think

01:21:49.060 we shouldn't put ourselves in this trap I

01:21:51.340 don't think we disagree with people on the

01:21:53.640 left you are of the left yeah I am very

01:21:56.780 open to a large number of important ideas

01:21:59.500 that the left focuses on I just think

01:22:02.400 we're not on board with this woke nonsense

01:22:04.340 okay so progressivism yeah we're not on I'm

01:22:06.680 not on board with progressivism I'm not

01:22:08.280 on board with pretending that things are

01:22:10.720 true that aren't true you know and that's

01:22:12.660 all I've ever cared about are the thing

01:22:14.680 that unites us more than anything is

01:22:16.560 intellectual curiosity yeah yeah we want

01:22:19.480 to get to the truth no matter which side

01:22:21.320 it's on yeah right which to me is why the

01:22:23.500 slogan is much more representative of who

01:22:25.640 we are now than the word trigonometry yeah

01:22:27.660 and also as well because emotionally I'm

01:22:30.400 not I'm not angry no like I used to be I

01:22:33.960 don't feel frustrated I don't feel unheard I

01:22:38.080 don't it would be incredibly hypocritical

01:22:41.120 and duplicitous of me to claim any of these

01:22:43.200 emotions when the reality is that none of

01:22:46.020 that applies anymore and trigonometry came

01:22:49.460 from us being in that space feeling those

01:22:54.280 things it was a kickback it had its

01:22:57.260 elements in punk and all the rest of it

01:22:58.940 and that's why yeah when the logo was

01:23:00.860 designed it had those things it actually

01:23:03.600 woven into it but I think now as we move

01:23:06.060 on we want to move past that yeah we want

01:23:08.260 to actually broaden even more the

01:23:11.140 conversation yeah we want to talk to a

01:23:13.180 wider range of voices well look this is

01:23:15.840 something you and I have always actually

01:23:16.980 been really interested I mean if you think

01:23:18.200 about the three of us and our favorite

01:23:20.040 episodes they're not really there is we've

01:23:24.340 done some great episodes that are you know

01:23:26.820 woke idiots this and work because they are

01:23:29.660 idiots and they're dangerous idiots and and

01:23:31.880 we'll continue to point that out because I

01:23:33.960 think it's important I think it's important

01:23:35.600 to defend you know civil liberties and

01:23:40.520 Western enlightenment values they need to

01:23:42.980 be defended and if they're not defended

01:23:44.860 this world will change in a bad way I

01:23:47.860 I feel very strongly that's why you know

01:23:49.900 in my book this is what I talk about

01:23:51.360 that's why it's called an immigrant's love

01:23:52.680 letter to the West it's very important to

01:23:54.460 protect and preserve these things but in

01:23:56.460 addition to that look at our favorite

01:23:58.060 interviews there with evolutionary

01:23:59.320 biologists with scientists with people

01:24:01.600 who can explain a lot about what's

01:24:03.520 happening in society not in terms of the

01:24:05.260 culture war but actually just in terms of

01:24:07.780 how people behave how human beings are

01:24:09.780 wired why they do what they do and so

01:24:12.660 that's what I've always seen the future of

01:24:15.980 the show as you know a lot of people think

01:24:18.200 that we're just these culture warriors I

01:24:20.120 don't feel that way at all I feel the great

01:24:22.160 privilege of doing the show is we get to

01:24:24.320 talk to people who are just interesting who

01:24:26.460 are just successful who who have a mindset

01:24:28.740 that anyone in their right mind would love

01:24:31.280 to emulate that have an ability to dissect

01:24:34.320 you know and you know separate bullshit from

01:24:37.380 the truth and present it in an articulate

01:24:39.100 interesting way that's what the show will

01:24:41.580 be about and and I keep saying this I

01:24:43.960 don't know if it's true but I suspect 10

01:24:45.700 15 years from now if the show is still

01:24:47.200 going which I hope it will be and I'm

01:24:49.000 sure will be we'll be pushing back against

01:24:51.600 people on the right yeah we do all the

01:24:53.160 time I mean I've just been having

01:24:55.260 arguments with people on the right who

01:24:57.300 are going too far in my opinion on this

01:24:59.620 obsession with you know conspiracy theories

01:25:02.200 about the vaccine people who say oh the

01:25:04.020 vaccine is not at all about health I'm

01:25:06.500 just going you're fucking mental yeah do

01:25:09.000 you know what I mean of course there are

01:25:10.460 a lot of things that have happened in

01:25:12.000 relation to COVID that I think are very

01:25:14.040 suspicious and suspect but let's not go

01:25:16.980 down the rabbit hole that far let's not

01:25:19.560 go into you know retweeting David Icke or

01:25:21.600 whatever so I'm gonna be pushing back I

01:25:25.280 think against all the people who I just

01:25:27.060 think are just wrong yeah yeah you know

01:25:30.340 and if they're on the right we'll push

01:25:31.940 back against them and if they're on the

01:25:33.320 left we'll push against them and but it's

01:25:35.060 like anything once you you talk about a

01:25:37.260 subject too much it becomes hack in order

01:25:40.100 to use a comedy term we you know and it

01:25:42.480 becomes boring and stayed and a lot of

01:25:44.960 what we were talking about in 2018 has

01:25:47.200 now filtered into the mainstream or is

01:25:49.280 beginning to certainly and now everybody's

01:25:51.660 talking about it but that's a sign for

01:25:54.540 us as well that there's other things to

01:25:56.960 talk about now things that are not getting

01:25:58.780 addressed let's leave it there because in

01:26:01.440 the follow-up episode to this one we're

01:26:03.000 going to talk about the actual issues

01:26:04.340 that we are interested in what's going

01:26:06.060 on in the world what we want to cover

01:26:07.420 going forward etc but for now that has

01:26:10.140 been the past the present and the future

01:26:12.580 of trigonometry take care and we'll see

01:26:15.080 you in in a few days time with a follow-up

01:26:17.100 to this take care and see you soon guys

01:26:19.260 we hope you've enjoyed this incredible

01:26:22.200 interview remember to subscribe and hit the

01:26:24.940 bell button so that you never miss another

01:26:27.520 fantastic episode and if you believe that

01:26:30.160 the work we do here at trigonometry is

01:26:32.500 important support us by joining our locals

01:26:34.980 community using the link below

TRIGGERnometry - November 15, 2021

The Truth About TRIGGERnometry

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