TRIGGERnometry - December 24, 2018


The Truths and Myths of the Gender Pay Gap


Episode Stats

Length

25 minutes

Words per Minute

189.68417

Word Count

4,923

Sentence Count

238

Misogynist Sentences

53

Hate Speech Sentences

19


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Trigonometry, we talk to economist and author Jonathan Pieper about the impact of the gender pay gap on real-world wage differences between men and women, and why it matters. We also talk about the lesbian wage premium and why lesbians make more than straight women.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is the
00:00:42.120 show for you if you're bored of people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing
00:00:46.860 about at trigonometry we don't pretend to be the experts we ask the experts
00:00:52.040 so what can you tell us about the impact of the differences between men and women
00:01:00.780 on things like the real world stuff like the gender pay gap for example
00:01:05.300 so this wasn't this talk wasn't recorded I probably should record it at some point but
00:01:10.860 I gave a talk for the Adam Smith Institute back in December and I talked a little bit
00:01:15.300 about where this kind of wage gap comes from and I hope I get all the details of the study right
00:01:19.420 But they were looking at people who scored very high on quantitative measures, like the SAT, men and women, who scored very, very high.
00:01:27.740 And they were looking at this kind of elite intellectual group.
00:01:30.660 And they asked the men and the women in this group, how many hours a week would you work optimally if you were, you know, if you had your druthers, which I don't know what druthers are, but they are a thing that you can have.
00:01:41.620 So if you had your druthers, how much, you know, how many hours a week would you work?
00:01:45.040 And I think far fewer women, it's like 30 or 40% fewer women,
00:01:49.700 said that they would work more than 40 hours a week.
00:01:52.360 And so if you ask women, I think this is the major difference here.
00:01:55.260 If you ask women, how much would you like to work in a week
00:01:59.260 and how much time would you like to spend with your family
00:02:00.900 and how much time would you like to spend with your kids,
00:02:02.920 women say, on average, I would like to spend more time with my family
00:02:06.060 and my kids and less time working than men say that they would like to.
00:02:12.480 And so that's kind of a, it's not very well appreciated,
00:02:17.640 but I do think it comes down a lot to personal preferences.
00:02:22.120 And men are also more willing to kind of work on call.
00:02:25.900 You know, there was this study that was done which showed that Uber drivers,
00:02:29.020 like men, were making 9% more as Uber drivers than women were
00:02:32.240 because they were willing to work more when the surge came.
00:02:34.640 They were willing to make more short trips.
00:02:36.720 They were essentially showing that they were more willing to take risks
00:02:40.140 and do jobs that were less appealing.
00:02:43.220 Another really interesting thing about men and women
00:02:45.500 in terms of the pay domain
00:02:48.840 is that lesbians make more than straight women do.
00:02:52.240 There's something called the lesbian wage premium.
00:02:54.480 Lesbian privilege.
00:02:55.400 That's what it is.
00:02:56.760 And lesbians make 9% more than straight women do.
00:03:00.760 And if you were kind of going with the kind of typical story
00:03:04.140 and you said, okay, well,
00:03:05.620 lesbians obviously don't present as gender typical.
00:03:08.800 they often come across as more butch, obviously.
00:03:12.080 I think everybody knows that.
00:03:14.220 Not on the internet.
00:03:15.360 Not on the internet.
00:03:16.100 You hear that?
00:03:16.660 It's the sound of a meltdown happening.
00:03:20.560 So, you know, this is what, this is idea like,
00:03:22.920 oh, you know, women are assertive and they act,
00:03:24.840 and I think that this is true to some extent,
00:03:26.920 that women who act assertive, they're called bitches,
00:03:29.260 you know, in whatever American black slang.
00:03:32.160 You say a man who acts dominant, he's bossed up,
00:03:35.320 whereas a woman who acts dominant is called a bitch, right?
00:03:38.160 I do think that that happens, but you would think that a woman who didn't act in a gender-typical manner, like some lesbians do, would make less money because they would be oppressed for not fitting in with the larger gender roles.
00:03:49.720 But no, they make more money, and I think it's because lesbians have some of these characteristics, like status-seeking, risk-taking kind of behavior, that more feminine straight women are less likely to have.
00:04:01.940 you've recently released a video uh um well jonathan pie has uh what you're talking about
00:04:12.940 the gender pay gap and it called uh widespread uh outrage i think is the right word to use
00:04:19.620 i mean it depends on who you look i mean it it followed off the back of the video we did about
00:04:24.680 the nazi pug yeah which i think probably caused more outrage it was unfortunate because we'd
00:04:28.700 written the video a few weeks before that it just so happened that the pug thing happened and then
00:04:34.040 we had to release this at this time because it was ready to go and it looked like we were being
00:04:37.640 deliberately provocative doing two consecutive uh pieces like that but because that was the
00:04:42.060 narrative actually it has been isn't it like you've gone all right like jonathan pie has gone all right
00:04:46.160 sure yeah but he's actually been criticizing the left for ages i mean hasn't he you both i mean you
00:04:51.500 have the two of you yeah absolutely i mean if you're familiar with the back catalogue uh jonathan
00:04:56.920 pi is a lefty who bashes the tories more than anyone else the tories and trump more than anyone
00:05:02.100 else so i mean if you're going to pick out these few videos where he's i mean he does attack the
00:05:06.080 left for where the left is going wrong because he cares about where the left is going wrong
00:05:09.560 so that makes sense uh to me um but the trouble is i suppose that the videos that cause uh
00:05:14.900 contention are the ones that people remember or know about and maybe they don't watch all all of
00:05:18.880 the other ones so they don't get that that perspective perhaps so on the gender pay gap
00:05:22.940 You made a video where Jonathan Pye interviews what he thinks is a feminist academic who's releasing a book.
00:05:30.660 And he's asking her, expecting her to provide the usual narrative about the gender pay gap.
00:05:34.480 Right, exactly.
00:05:34.800 And what he encounters and very quickly gets frustrated by is that she's more of a second-wave feminist than a third-wave feminist.
00:05:41.960 That's exactly right.
00:05:42.660 In other words, she's not into the whole victimhood thing that's now so popular, which is what you've been talking about.
00:05:47.900 Right, so it's a satire in the media as well.
00:05:49.600 The media have an expectation of a certain narrative that they have to produce.
00:05:52.400 And then when they're confronted with something they're not familiar with, they don't know what to do.
00:05:55.860 So it's a satirical piece.
00:05:56.960 Yeah. And what was the response to that?
00:05:59.360 OK, so.
00:06:02.180 Well, some people weren't.
00:06:04.520 I love that. I'm loving the body language.
00:06:06.520 Yeah, I know.
00:06:08.140 Some people weren't. I sort of stayed out of this one quite a bit when when the when people started attacking us on Twitter.
00:06:14.620 But yes, there was a bit of a backlash from certain feminist groups and from certain feminist figures.
00:06:20.600 and comedians more than anything.
00:06:23.340 I mean, I didn't get involved,
00:06:25.640 but I am aware of lots of threads that appeared on Facebook
00:06:29.400 in which I was described as an alt-right, anti-feminist,
00:06:32.320 all the rest of it,
00:06:33.200 because friends of mine keep sending me screenshots
00:06:34.740 and say, look what these people are saying about you.
00:06:37.760 It's good to have friends, eh?
00:06:38.940 Yeah, they seem to take a certain delight in it as well.
00:06:41.560 It is odd.
00:06:43.100 It's odd that, for a start, a piece of fiction,
00:06:46.700 a piece of satire can generate that kind of response.
00:06:50.600 um but it's also i'm up for the debate you know if anyone wants to email me and say why i'm wrong
00:06:55.900 great and we'll talk about it uh you know i'm and also what was very interesting on all these
00:07:00.460 threads i saw all these arguments not once did anyone present a coherent counter-argument to
00:07:04.760 any argument that was made in the video not once uh it was just ad hominem it was just you're
00:07:09.460 alt-right you're anti-feminist uh well i'm not uh and i always uh called myself a feminist always
00:07:15.260 have um i worry now that to use the word means that because the word is so currently being used
00:07:21.980 to describe a kind of victim-centered feminism uh whereas i believe feminism is about equality
00:07:26.800 and empowerment and unfortunately that makes me an old-fashioned kind of feminist but on the other
00:07:31.400 hand i shouldn't allow people to misappropriate the word so in a sense i should hold on to it
00:07:35.380 but um so that's what we were i mean the character in that uh video is as you say a feminist who
00:07:42.540 hates the fact, for instance, that the BBC have promoted an app for your phone that will help
00:07:48.060 women to speak up in meetings. And we make the point that this is horribly patronising. I mean,
00:07:53.180 some of my female friends found this the most disgusting thing, but it's hailed as the BBC
00:07:57.480 as this really progressive, wonderful thing. I would say that victim-centred feminism,
00:08:03.640 although the people who promote it are not, of course, misogynists, but the premise of it
00:08:07.180 is misogynist. The premise of it is that women are weaker and need extra protection. And that's
00:08:12.400 why i don't agree with it well the media concept of the gender cape the way they present it i don't
00:08:22.360 think they would ever elaborate on it that way but the way they present is essentially for every pound
00:08:26.580 that a man earns a woman earns whatever 77 83 cents in the states yeah that's the idea uh and
00:08:35.220 what you're saying is one what they're doing is essentially they're adding up the all the earnings
00:08:39.920 of men, on average, the adding of the earnings in women, averaging that and comparing the
00:08:44.020 two, and that doesn't reflect things like choices, time off work, career choices, you
00:08:49.940 know, things like that, right?
00:08:50.840 That's definitely true.
00:08:51.920 But even those statements, women are earning, you know, X amount of pence to the pound or
00:08:56.260 the dollar, those are just false.
00:08:58.300 You know, that is, well, that's essentially implying a question of equal pay, right?
00:09:02.140 You know, for every pound a man earns, a woman will earn X.
00:09:05.140 That's, no, that's not true.
00:09:06.920 You then have to ask yourself, what is the circumstance?
00:09:10.060 Because it could be that for every pound a woman earns who is a CEO at a bank, a man earns X percentage less, right?
00:09:17.520 So, you know, I think that statement in and of itself is extremely misleading, if not downright wrong.
00:09:23.740 So let's look at the figures in the U.K.
00:09:26.140 The most popular statistic used, well, not necessarily most popular, but the one you'll see perhaps on the big media screens is 18.4%.
00:09:36.140 that is the gender pay gap in the UK. That statistic is calculated by the Office for
00:09:40.560 National Statistics, which does a really good job of calculating the pay gap. But that combines
00:09:45.080 full-time workers and part-time workers. We know that women are significantly more likely to work
00:09:49.920 part-time and that those jobs tend to pay less. So I think in and of itself, that is a really
00:09:54.960 unfair calculation. You're not comparing like for like. If you just separate part-time workers from
00:10:00.840 full-time workers, that's all you've done. You still have not taken into account age, job,
00:10:04.920 background, children, anything. You get 9.1% pay gap for full-time workers, negative 5.1% pay gap
00:10:13.560 for part-time workers. So that's a pay gap in favor of women. So part-time workers who are female
00:10:18.240 actually out-earn their male counterparts. On average. Yes, exactly. So just by doing that one
00:10:23.560 thing, you've cut the pay gap in half for full-time, and you've actually shown that women
00:10:28.040 are doing better on average in part-time work. So that just goes to show how manipulated these
00:10:33.440 statistics can be when you just are taking one thing into account. Then when you start to go
00:10:39.400 into age, start to go into background, you know, the pay gap gets smaller and smaller and smaller.
00:10:45.060 So in the UK, women between the ages of 22 to 39 are basically earning the same as men. The pay gap
00:10:50.840 is negligible. In 2015, women aged 22 to 29 were earning slightly more, tiny percentage. Right now,
00:10:57.920 men are earning 2%, 2.5% more. That's a negligible statistic. So, you know, we can actually say that
00:11:05.360 the gender pay gap has been eradicated for men and women between the ages of 20 and 40. That's a huge
00:11:11.060 part of your working life. You know, that's absolutely fantastic. I think the pay gap that
00:11:16.200 still exists after that age has a lot to do with maternity leave and the fact that women take
00:11:21.680 years off work on average compared to men. It has to do with a lot of choices that women are making
00:11:27.260 in terms of jobs and work culture and what they value.
00:11:30.840 It has a lot to do with whether or not you're willing to work overtime,
00:11:33.940 willing to work weekends.
00:11:34.820 That feeds into job culture and all that.
00:11:37.420 None of those things, and job, the actual job that you choose to do,
00:11:41.640 none of those things are calculated in the pay gap.
00:11:43.900 So even the very basic statistics we have
00:11:47.080 are showing a pretty good picture for women.
00:11:49.900 The pay gap's the lowest it's ever been on record
00:11:51.840 since I started calculating it in the UK.
00:11:54.400 And, you know, that hasn't taken into account very important things.
00:11:57.820 So if that's the case and you're saying that it's negligible,
00:12:01.960 then why are we constantly getting bombarded with these facts and statistics
00:12:06.920 about how women are being out-earned by men,
00:12:10.280 we live in an unfair society, we live in a sexist society?
00:12:13.580 Why are we getting that story?
00:12:16.460 Well, I have two theories.
00:12:18.320 One's generous and one isn't.
00:12:20.300 Which one do you want first?
00:12:21.540 Let's go both.
00:12:22.240 Okay, I'll start.
00:12:23.380 I think the generous one is that it's 2018.
00:12:27.120 It's an important year.
00:12:28.200 It's 100 women.
00:12:29.120 100 women?
00:12:29.880 It's 100 years.
00:12:31.040 It's 100 years since women got the vote in the U.K.
00:12:34.880 And something still doesn't feel quite right.
00:12:37.620 You know, as a woman in 2018, you still recognize that a lot of the cards are sacked against you.
00:12:44.620 You know, look at domestic violence stats.
00:12:47.580 Look at rape statistics.
00:12:48.740 compare men and women walking home alone on any given evening.
00:12:53.400 You know, women have their car keys in their fingers and men don't.
00:12:57.480 Something still doesn't feel right, doesn't seem fair.
00:13:00.140 And I think that that very legitimate feeling that we can all pretty much agree on,
00:13:05.800 then people want to harness that and say, well, what are we going to do about it?
00:13:11.080 And unfortunately, people go to the gender pay gap
00:13:15.440 because they think it's something that they can really easily solve through legislation.
00:13:19.780 They think, well, I want to see results.
00:13:21.540 I want to get a law passed.
00:13:22.800 I want to get something done.
00:13:24.280 Let's focus on the gender pay gap because we can make the state make big business publish their pay gap figures.
00:13:30.500 You know, we can do something and say we got a win, we got a policy win.
00:13:34.300 But, of course, that has no meaningful impact on the things that I think women are still actually facing
00:13:39.220 and the disadvantages that we have in society.
00:13:42.820 So, I mean, that would be my generous reading of it,
00:13:44.880 that people just want to do something about the unfairness that they still see in the world.
00:13:49.100 So they latch on to the pay gap, even though that's not where we need to be latching on to.
00:13:53.280 If anything, we can say this seems to be going extremely well.
00:13:57.120 There are still some things we could do to help women in work for sure,
00:13:59.820 but this is not the major area.
00:14:01.800 We need to look at violence.
00:14:02.820 We need to look at Yarlswood Detention Center,
00:14:05.500 where immigrant women are kept and detained and treated horribly.
00:14:08.780 You know, that's what we need to look at.
00:14:09.940 But my last generous reading is that, you know, it's a lucrative and popular business
00:14:17.680 to be promoting victimhood culture.
00:14:21.060 And the larger the statistic, the more media attention you'll get.
00:14:26.260 You know, if you look at a lot of these articles across the spectrum, it's no particular publication.
00:14:31.060 You know, EasyJet was a really good example when businesses had to publish their pay gap
00:14:35.460 figures for the first time back in April.
00:14:37.040 you know every headline was easy jet has 52 percent gender pay gap massive um you had to
00:14:45.040 get to article six oh sorry paragraph six or seven um if it was in the article at all uh where it
00:14:51.040 said actually the reason that they have this pay gap is that they pay their pilots 100 grand a year
00:14:56.380 they pay the stewards 25 grand a year they six percent of their pilots are women 94 percent are
00:15:03.820 men. This is double the worldwide average of female pilots. They're actually doing really
00:15:08.620 well. They can't hire more female pilots because they don't exist. They implemented a program years
00:15:14.500 back with their own profits off their own back to bring in more women by 2020. This is a company
00:15:19.580 that is doing everything it can to encourage women, support women, and to pay them fairly
00:15:24.140 and equally. And this is the reason for their pay gap. But that was not at the top of the article.
00:15:28.860 That was, if you're lucky, at the bottom.
00:15:31.620 So those big statistics sell.
00:15:34.340 I think there's a real effort right now to press the reset button on the gender pay gap.
00:15:38.860 It really wasn't that long ago, you know, 40 years ago,
00:15:41.840 where you could see a genuine pay gap that was based on discrimination,
00:15:45.920 that women got paid less than men.
00:15:47.840 And that has closed so dramatically for a lot of reasons,
00:15:51.480 including the fact that women are getting better educated.
00:15:53.780 They're more educated than men on average, and they're going on to do those top jobs.
00:15:57.980 You know, they're extremely motivated.
00:15:59.420 There isn't that glass ceiling anymore.
00:16:01.660 And, you know, that pay gap has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking, which is great news.
00:16:06.520 It's a wonderful story to tell, especially young women.
00:16:09.560 And a lot of these groups that do very well perpetuating that victimhood mentality need to press a reset button.
00:16:16.640 They need to be able to say that something's still wrong here in order to have relevance.
00:16:20.040 And they've been really successful.
00:16:21.660 I mean, up until April, the pay gap, the biggest one you could come up with was 18.4%, but that's quite misleading.
00:16:29.320 You know, we've got this great story about 9.1%, negative 5.1%.
00:16:33.220 And then they get these big businesses without much context at all to publish their pay gap statistics.
00:16:39.000 And now they can say 52% gender pay gap, 70% gender pay gap.
00:16:44.780 It's as if, you know, the past 50 years didn't exist.
00:16:48.600 And that's great for them.
00:16:50.860 It's a really bad message for normal women
00:16:52.500 who are just going to work in the morning,
00:16:53.980 pouring a cup of coffee,
00:16:55.380 now thinking to themselves,
00:16:56.500 oh, I work for Easy Chat.
00:16:57.560 Are they discriminating against me?
00:16:59.280 No.
00:17:00.080 They want to perpetuate you.
00:17:01.360 They want to bring you up.
00:17:02.320 They want to propel you to top spots, actually.
00:17:05.440 But if you just read the headline,
00:17:07.240 a lot of people do,
00:17:08.860 you're going to have a pretty negative attitude.
00:17:11.080 So that's my slightly more skeptical perspective.
00:17:13.700 I think they're trying to push the reset button
00:17:15.300 to make this issue still relevant.
00:17:18.020 I think it's really terrible for young women,
00:17:20.220 especially to see this so the gender pay gap i think is a really really good example of how
00:17:31.360 statistics can be used to prove anything that you want them to prove at all because it all depends
00:17:37.060 on what we measure so if you want to make the gender pay gap seem massive then what you do is
00:17:44.320 you look at the earnings of all men and the earnings of all women and you compare them with
00:17:49.060 each other and surprise surprise you find out that women earn less than men but obviously what
00:17:54.520 that's not taking into account is the hours that men and women work the jobs that men and women do
00:18:00.240 and this fact that we've already mentioned you know in the past men and women weren't as equal
00:18:05.980 as they are today so if you look at the top rungs of careers where people have been working for 30
00:18:12.700 40 years they've reached the absolute top of their profession you are more likely to find men
00:18:17.580 in those positions so if you do that you take all men's wages all women's wages you find a very very
00:18:23.740 big gender pay gap but basically the more we compare like for like so the more you look at
00:18:29.220 men and women doing the same jobs for the same number of hours for the same level of experience
00:18:35.380 then the pay gap gets narrower and narrower and narrower and eventually comparing like for like
00:18:42.240 it disappears altogether there's no gender pay gap if you look at men and women who are both
00:18:47.720 doing the same job same length of time same number of hours each week and of course that's the case
00:18:54.480 I mean you just think about this for like a minute or two because for one thing it's illegal so if
00:18:59.780 you took two people who are doing the exact same job exact same hours exact same level and the man
00:19:06.320 was being paid more the woman could take this company the boss to court you know it would be
00:19:10.580 illegal. They would be breaking the law. But there's an even more common sense argument as
00:19:15.940 well. If bosses could get away with paying women substantially less for doing the exact same work
00:19:24.300 as men do, but just cheaper, why would any boss anywhere ever employ a man? Why would you get a
00:19:32.040 man to do the job? Well, it's interesting that you say that because we are recording this and
00:19:36.460 And by the time this goes out, it will be a couple of weeks from today, probably.
00:19:39.840 The guest whose episode we've just released is a lady called Dr. Pippa Malgram, who is a good friend and a wonderful person.
00:19:48.380 She is a former advisor to an American president, founder of her own company, et cetera.
00:19:52.940 And when we talked to her, we asked her about the pay gap as well.
00:19:55.460 And she said that as a speaker after her political career and all the rest of it, she actually had her own agent, speaking agent, say to her, your metrics are great.
00:20:04.620 You're getting better performances than your male counterparts, but we cannot get you the
00:20:08.640 same fees because you're a woman.
00:20:10.640 So there is some, I mean, not everyone is rational, not everyone, I mean, you say it's
00:20:17.500 illegal and it is, but people do illegal stuff all the time, right?
00:20:21.260 So there's probably a small element of discrimination that is part of what causes the gender pay
00:20:26.980 gap.
00:20:27.140 I totally hear your argument about these averages being useless, essentially, in measuring
00:20:31.580 the real gender pay gap.
00:20:33.220 but um so my question you think there's no discrimination against women at all in the
00:20:38.760 workplace i mean i i don't know the woman who you've you've um just interviewed and i'm really
00:20:44.280 looking forward to yeah i'll watch that interview with great interest but i i mean some personal
00:20:49.260 advice from me to her you know and i'm sure she's she probably won't watch and won't appreciate this
00:20:54.020 but if i was her i'd sack that that's exactly what she did well kipa's great she's not anyway
00:20:58.740 she's not someone who would whine or complain she took action sack that agent get yourself
00:21:03.100 But my point is she's a very, very accomplished, very powerful person who's made a great success of her life.
00:21:10.880 Not every person is, I'm not as accomplished or successful and I'm, you know, so not everyone is capable necessarily of that.
00:21:19.220 Not everyone is in a position where their value is so high that they can do that.
00:21:22.900 Definitely. Well, I think there's a couple of things to say here.
00:21:25.220 I mean, for one thing, I think that when we compare, I mean, so we hear on the news, you know,
00:21:32.480 about women who work at the BBC being paid a lot less than men.
00:21:36.460 So there was even a story about Martina Navratilova
00:21:39.880 when she was doing the commentary at the Wimbledon,
00:21:43.420 at the tennis, being paid less than, I can't, Bjorn Borg?
00:21:47.540 No, McEnroe, John McEnroe, doing,
00:21:51.400 or likewise, doing coverage of Wimbledon.
00:21:55.160 But then you stop and you look at this, you know,
00:21:56.980 McEnroe was a much bigger personality.
00:21:59.040 He was the one who was fronting the BBC's coverage.
00:22:02.480 he was doing 10 times as much of a live broadcast as Navratilova was. So again, you just were not
00:22:10.260 comparing like for like. And the way the story appears is like, oh, poor Martina Navratilova,
00:22:15.940 isn't it terrible? All this discrimination. So we had another story about Claire Foy and Matt
00:22:21.160 Smith in The Crown. You know, Claire Foy was being paid less than Matt Smith. Isn't this terrible?
00:22:26.800 She was in the lead role, et cetera, et cetera. Apart from before The Crown, who had heard of
00:22:31.120 Claire Foy, you know, not me, whereas Matt Smith had been Doctor Who. So when we talk about speakers,
00:22:37.520 celebrities, sports stars, their salaries are not worked out in the same way. I mean,
00:22:43.600 if you are working in McDonald's, and you say, you know, actually, I'd like to negotiate a bit
00:22:48.700 of a pay rise here. Good luck with that. They show you the door. But this is not to say that
00:22:53.920 I don't think there's any truth in what you're saying. I do think that there's a perhaps a
00:22:57.820 confidence issue for women, where they are less likely to push themselves forward, perhaps
00:23:03.420 undervalue themselves. You know, I've certainly been in cases, particularly when I speak at
00:23:09.480 American universities, and they'll ask me, well, what's your going rate? And I'm like, oh, my God,
00:23:14.440 I have no idea how to answer this question. And the fear is, if you, well, my fear is you pitch
00:23:20.700 yourself too high, they're going to say no, thank you and laugh. And you end up underselling myself
00:23:25.800 as a result but do you know what I think feminism today doesn't help women with that confidence
00:23:31.920 problem I think the more we hear it's so shit being a woman it's so awful the more you do then
00:23:39.140 begin to undervalue yourself you you think then when people undervalue you you think oh yes this
00:23:46.060 is just what life's like for being a woman because it's really awful and terrible so I think the best
00:23:52.660 thing feminism could do for women would be to say actually there's loads of opportunities out there
00:23:58.420 never been a better time to be a woman get out there take advantage of all these opportunities
00:24:04.440 don't sit at home underselling yourself
00:24:07.100 if you enjoyed this week as always follow us uh on trigger at trigger pod on twitter
00:24:14.080 instagram we're on facebook as well i'm constantin kitchen you can find me on twitter at
00:24:18.300 constance and kitchen uh i'm francis foster you can find me on twitter at failing human
00:24:22.560 um yeah send me abuse as well mostly people just do it about my face if you've enjoyed it uh please
00:24:29.620 give us a rating five stars say something nice uh tell a friend about it we are on itunes we are on
00:24:36.740 what's the new one the pocket one pocket cast i think is it pocket cast i can never get on that
00:24:41.620 yeah yeah producer doesn't know either we're screwed yeah he's just looking at us blankly
00:24:47.420 subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're building up our audience. And we'll be back next week with
00:24:51.840 another episode. Thanks very much. And you need to help you again for next week. Right. I'll see you soon.
00:24:55.940 Thanks. Bye.
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