TRIGGERnometry - The Truths and Myths of the Gender Pay Gap

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is the

00:00:42.120 show for you if you're bored of people arguing on the internet over subjects they know nothing

00:00:46.860 about at trigonometry we don't pretend to be the experts we ask the experts

00:00:52.040 so what can you tell us about the impact of the differences between men and women

00:01:00.780 on things like the real world stuff like the gender pay gap for example

00:01:05.300 so this wasn't this talk wasn't recorded I probably should record it at some point but

00:01:10.860 I gave a talk for the Adam Smith Institute back in December and I talked a little bit

00:01:15.300 about where this kind of wage gap comes from and I hope I get all the details of the study right

00:01:19.420 But they were looking at people who scored very high on quantitative measures, like the SAT, men and women, who scored very, very high.

00:01:27.740 And they were looking at this kind of elite intellectual group.

00:01:30.660 And they asked the men and the women in this group, how many hours a week would you work optimally if you were, you know, if you had your druthers, which I don't know what druthers are, but they are a thing that you can have.

00:01:41.620 So if you had your druthers, how much, you know, how many hours a week would you work?

00:01:45.040 And I think far fewer women, it's like 30 or 40% fewer women, 1.00

00:01:49.700 said that they would work more than 40 hours a week.

00:01:52.360 And so if you ask women, I think this is the major difference here.

00:01:55.260 If you ask women, how much would you like to work in a week 1.00

00:01:59.260 and how much time would you like to spend with your family

00:02:00.900 and how much time would you like to spend with your kids,

00:02:02.920 women say, on average, I would like to spend more time with my family 0.55

00:02:06.060 and my kids and less time working than men say that they would like to.

00:02:12.480 And so that's kind of a, it's not very well appreciated,

00:02:17.640 but I do think it comes down a lot to personal preferences.

00:02:22.120 And men are also more willing to kind of work on call.

00:02:25.900 You know, there was this study that was done which showed that Uber drivers,

00:02:29.020 like men, were making 9% more as Uber drivers than women were

00:02:32.240 because they were willing to work more when the surge came.

00:02:34.640 They were willing to make more short trips.

00:02:36.720 They were essentially showing that they were more willing to take risks

00:02:40.140 and do jobs that were less appealing.

00:02:43.220 Another really interesting thing about men and women

00:02:45.500 in terms of the pay domain

00:02:48.840 is that lesbians make more than straight women do. 1.00

00:02:52.240 There's something called the lesbian wage premium. 1.00

00:02:54.480 Lesbian privilege. 1.00

00:02:55.400 That's what it is.

00:02:56.760 And lesbians make 9% more than straight women do. 0.97

00:03:00.760 And if you were kind of going with the kind of typical story

00:03:04.140 and you said, okay, well,

00:03:05.620 lesbians obviously don't present as gender typical. 1.00

00:03:08.800 they often come across as more butch, obviously. 0.99

00:03:12.080 I think everybody knows that. 0.83

00:03:14.220 Not on the internet.

00:03:15.360 Not on the internet.

00:03:16.100 You hear that?

00:03:16.660 It's the sound of a meltdown happening.

00:03:20.560 So, you know, this is what, this is idea like,

00:03:22.920 oh, you know, women are assertive and they act, 1.00

00:03:24.840 and I think that this is true to some extent, 0.99

00:03:26.920 that women who act assertive, they're called bitches, 1.00

00:03:29.260 you know, in whatever American black slang. 0.99

00:03:32.160 You say a man who acts dominant, he's bossed up, 1.00

00:03:35.320 whereas a woman who acts dominant is called a bitch, right? 1.00

00:03:38.160 I do think that that happens, but you would think that a woman who didn't act in a gender-typical manner, like some lesbians do, would make less money because they would be oppressed for not fitting in with the larger gender roles. 1.00

00:03:49.720 But no, they make more money, and I think it's because lesbians have some of these characteristics, like status-seeking, risk-taking kind of behavior, that more feminine straight women are less likely to have. 1.00

00:04:01.940 you've recently released a video uh um well jonathan pie has uh what you're talking about

00:04:12.940 the gender pay gap and it called uh widespread uh outrage i think is the right word to use

00:04:19.620 i mean it depends on who you look i mean it it followed off the back of the video we did about

00:04:24.680 the nazi pug yeah which i think probably caused more outrage it was unfortunate because we'd

00:04:28.700 written the video a few weeks before that it just so happened that the pug thing happened and then

00:04:34.040 we had to release this at this time because it was ready to go and it looked like we were being

00:04:37.640 deliberately provocative doing two consecutive uh pieces like that but because that was the

00:04:42.060 narrative actually it has been isn't it like you've gone all right like jonathan pie has gone all right

00:04:46.160 sure yeah but he's actually been criticizing the left for ages i mean hasn't he you both i mean you

00:04:51.500 have the two of you yeah absolutely i mean if you're familiar with the back catalogue uh jonathan

00:04:56.920 pi is a lefty who bashes the tories more than anyone else the tories and trump more than anyone

00:05:02.100 else so i mean if you're going to pick out these few videos where he's i mean he does attack the

00:05:06.080 left for where the left is going wrong because he cares about where the left is going wrong

00:05:09.560 so that makes sense uh to me um but the trouble is i suppose that the videos that cause uh

00:05:14.900 contention are the ones that people remember or know about and maybe they don't watch all all of

00:05:18.880 the other ones so they don't get that that perspective perhaps so on the gender pay gap 0.97

00:05:22.940 You made a video where Jonathan Pye interviews what he thinks is a feminist academic who's releasing a book. 0.97

00:05:30.660 And he's asking her, expecting her to provide the usual narrative about the gender pay gap.

00:05:34.480 Right, exactly.

00:05:34.800 And what he encounters and very quickly gets frustrated by is that she's more of a second-wave feminist than a third-wave feminist. 0.98

00:05:41.960 That's exactly right.

00:05:42.660 In other words, she's not into the whole victimhood thing that's now so popular, which is what you've been talking about.

00:05:47.900 Right, so it's a satire in the media as well.

00:05:49.600 The media have an expectation of a certain narrative that they have to produce.

00:05:52.400 And then when they're confronted with something they're not familiar with, they don't know what to do.

00:05:55.860 So it's a satirical piece.

00:05:56.960 Yeah. And what was the response to that?

00:05:59.360 OK, so.

00:06:02.180 Well, some people weren't.

00:06:04.520 I love that. I'm loving the body language.

00:06:06.520 Yeah, I know.

00:06:08.140 Some people weren't. I sort of stayed out of this one quite a bit when when the when people started attacking us on Twitter.

00:06:14.620 But yes, there was a bit of a backlash from certain feminist groups and from certain feminist figures. 1.00

00:06:20.600 and comedians more than anything.

00:06:23.340 I mean, I didn't get involved,

00:06:25.640 but I am aware of lots of threads that appeared on Facebook

00:06:29.400 in which I was described as an alt-right, anti-feminist,

00:06:32.320 all the rest of it,

00:06:33.200 because friends of mine keep sending me screenshots

00:06:34.740 and say, look what these people are saying about you.

00:06:37.760 It's good to have friends, eh?

00:06:38.940 Yeah, they seem to take a certain delight in it as well.

00:06:41.560 It is odd.

00:06:43.100 It's odd that, for a start, a piece of fiction,

00:06:46.700 a piece of satire can generate that kind of response.

00:06:50.600 um but it's also i'm up for the debate you know if anyone wants to email me and say why i'm wrong

00:06:55.900 great and we'll talk about it uh you know i'm and also what was very interesting on all these

00:07:00.460 threads i saw all these arguments not once did anyone present a coherent counter-argument to

00:07:04.760 any argument that was made in the video not once uh it was just ad hominem it was just you're

00:07:09.460 alt-right you're anti-feminist uh well i'm not uh and i always uh called myself a feminist always

00:07:15.260 have um i worry now that to use the word means that because the word is so currently being used

00:07:21.980 to describe a kind of victim-centered feminism uh whereas i believe feminism is about equality 0.97

00:07:26.800 and empowerment and unfortunately that makes me an old-fashioned kind of feminist but on the other

00:07:31.400 hand i shouldn't allow people to misappropriate the word so in a sense i should hold on to it

00:07:35.380 but um so that's what we were i mean the character in that uh video is as you say a feminist who 1.00

00:07:42.540 hates the fact, for instance, that the BBC have promoted an app for your phone that will help

00:07:48.060 women to speak up in meetings. And we make the point that this is horribly patronising. I mean, 0.99

00:07:53.180 some of my female friends found this the most disgusting thing, but it's hailed as the BBC

00:07:57.480 as this really progressive, wonderful thing. I would say that victim-centred feminism, 0.97

00:08:03.640 although the people who promote it are not, of course, misogynists, but the premise of it

00:08:07.180 is misogynist. The premise of it is that women are weaker and need extra protection. And that's 0.82

00:08:12.400 why i don't agree with it well the media concept of the gender cape the way they present it i don't

00:08:22.360 think they would ever elaborate on it that way but the way they present is essentially for every pound

00:08:26.580 that a man earns a woman earns whatever 77 83 cents in the states yeah that's the idea uh and

00:08:35.220 what you're saying is one what they're doing is essentially they're adding up the all the earnings

00:08:39.920 of men, on average, the adding of the earnings in women, averaging that and comparing the

00:08:44.020 two, and that doesn't reflect things like choices, time off work, career choices, you

00:08:49.940 know, things like that, right?

00:08:50.840 That's definitely true.

00:08:51.920 But even those statements, women are earning, you know, X amount of pence to the pound or 1.00

00:08:56.260 the dollar, those are just false.

00:08:58.300 You know, that is, well, that's essentially implying a question of equal pay, right?

00:09:02.140 You know, for every pound a man earns, a woman will earn X. 1.00

00:09:05.140 That's, no, that's not true.

00:09:06.920 You then have to ask yourself, what is the circumstance?

00:09:10.060 Because it could be that for every pound a woman earns who is a CEO at a bank, a man earns X percentage less, right? 0.63

00:09:17.520 So, you know, I think that statement in and of itself is extremely misleading, if not downright wrong.

00:09:23.740 So let's look at the figures in the U.K.

00:09:26.140 The most popular statistic used, well, not necessarily most popular, but the one you'll see perhaps on the big media screens is 18.4%.

00:09:36.140 that is the gender pay gap in the UK. That statistic is calculated by the Office for

00:09:40.560 National Statistics, which does a really good job of calculating the pay gap. But that combines

00:09:45.080 full-time workers and part-time workers. We know that women are significantly more likely to work

00:09:49.920 part-time and that those jobs tend to pay less. So I think in and of itself, that is a really

00:09:54.960 unfair calculation. You're not comparing like for like. If you just separate part-time workers from

00:10:00.840 full-time workers, that's all you've done. You still have not taken into account age, job,

00:10:04.920 background, children, anything. You get 9.1% pay gap for full-time workers, negative 5.1% pay gap

00:10:13.560 for part-time workers. So that's a pay gap in favor of women. So part-time workers who are female 1.00

00:10:18.240 actually out-earn their male counterparts. On average. Yes, exactly. So just by doing that one

00:10:23.560 thing, you've cut the pay gap in half for full-time, and you've actually shown that women 1.00

00:10:28.040 are doing better on average in part-time work. So that just goes to show how manipulated these

00:10:33.440 statistics can be when you just are taking one thing into account. Then when you start to go

00:10:39.400 into age, start to go into background, you know, the pay gap gets smaller and smaller and smaller.

00:10:45.060 So in the UK, women between the ages of 22 to 39 are basically earning the same as men. The pay gap

00:10:50.840 is negligible. In 2015, women aged 22 to 29 were earning slightly more, tiny percentage. Right now,

00:10:57.920 men are earning 2%, 2.5% more. That's a negligible statistic. So, you know, we can actually say that

00:11:05.360 the gender pay gap has been eradicated for men and women between the ages of 20 and 40. That's a huge

00:11:11.060 part of your working life. You know, that's absolutely fantastic. I think the pay gap that

00:11:16.200 still exists after that age has a lot to do with maternity leave and the fact that women take 1.00

00:11:21.680 years off work on average compared to men. It has to do with a lot of choices that women are making 0.93

00:11:27.260 in terms of jobs and work culture and what they value.

00:11:30.840 It has a lot to do with whether or not you're willing to work overtime,

00:11:33.940 willing to work weekends.

00:11:34.820 That feeds into job culture and all that. 0.92

00:11:37.420 None of those things, and job, the actual job that you choose to do,

00:11:41.640 none of those things are calculated in the pay gap.

00:11:43.900 So even the very basic statistics we have

00:11:47.080 are showing a pretty good picture for women. 0.99

00:11:49.900 The pay gap's the lowest it's ever been on record

00:11:51.840 since I started calculating it in the UK.

00:11:54.400 And, you know, that hasn't taken into account very important things.

00:11:57.820 So if that's the case and you're saying that it's negligible,

00:12:01.960 then why are we constantly getting bombarded with these facts and statistics

00:12:06.920 about how women are being out-earned by men,

00:12:10.280 we live in an unfair society, we live in a sexist society?

00:12:13.580 Why are we getting that story?

00:12:16.460 Well, I have two theories.

00:12:18.320 One's generous and one isn't.

00:12:20.300 Which one do you want first?

00:12:21.540 Let's go both.

00:12:22.240 Okay, I'll start.

00:12:23.380 I think the generous one is that it's 2018.

00:12:27.120 It's an important year.

00:12:28.200 It's 100 women. 1.00

00:12:29.120 100 women? 1.00

00:12:29.880 It's 100 years.

00:12:31.040 It's 100 years since women got the vote in the U.K.

00:12:34.880 And something still doesn't feel quite right.

00:12:37.620 You know, as a woman in 2018, you still recognize that a lot of the cards are sacked against you.

00:12:44.620 You know, look at domestic violence stats.

00:12:47.580 Look at rape statistics.

00:12:48.740 compare men and women walking home alone on any given evening.

00:12:53.400 You know, women have their car keys in their fingers and men don't. 1.00

00:12:57.480 Something still doesn't feel right, doesn't seem fair.

00:13:00.140 And I think that that very legitimate feeling that we can all pretty much agree on,

00:13:05.800 then people want to harness that and say, well, what are we going to do about it?

00:13:11.080 And unfortunately, people go to the gender pay gap 0.99

00:13:15.440 because they think it's something that they can really easily solve through legislation.

00:13:19.780 They think, well, I want to see results.

00:13:21.540 I want to get a law passed.

00:13:22.800 I want to get something done.

00:13:24.280 Let's focus on the gender pay gap because we can make the state make big business publish their pay gap figures. 1.00

00:13:30.500 You know, we can do something and say we got a win, we got a policy win.

00:13:34.300 But, of course, that has no meaningful impact on the things that I think women are still actually facing

00:13:39.220 and the disadvantages that we have in society.

00:13:42.820 So, I mean, that would be my generous reading of it,

00:13:44.880 that people just want to do something about the unfairness that they still see in the world.

00:13:49.100 So they latch on to the pay gap, even though that's not where we need to be latching on to.

00:13:53.280 If anything, we can say this seems to be going extremely well.

00:13:57.120 There are still some things we could do to help women in work for sure, 1.00

00:13:59.820 but this is not the major area.

00:14:01.800 We need to look at violence.

00:14:02.820 We need to look at Yarlswood Detention Center,

00:14:05.500 where immigrant women are kept and detained and treated horribly.

00:14:08.780 You know, that's what we need to look at.

00:14:09.940 But my last generous reading is that, you know, it's a lucrative and popular business

00:14:17.680 to be promoting victimhood culture.

00:14:21.060 And the larger the statistic, the more media attention you'll get.

00:14:26.260 You know, if you look at a lot of these articles across the spectrum, it's no particular publication.

00:14:31.060 You know, EasyJet was a really good example when businesses had to publish their pay gap

00:14:35.460 figures for the first time back in April.

00:14:37.040 you know every headline was easy jet has 52 percent gender pay gap massive um you had to 0.94

00:14:45.040 get to article six oh sorry paragraph six or seven um if it was in the article at all uh where it

00:14:51.040 said actually the reason that they have this pay gap is that they pay their pilots 100 grand a year

00:14:56.380 they pay the stewards 25 grand a year they six percent of their pilots are women 94 percent are

00:15:03.820 men. This is double the worldwide average of female pilots. They're actually doing really 0.91

00:15:08.620 well. They can't hire more female pilots because they don't exist. They implemented a program years 1.00

00:15:14.500 back with their own profits off their own back to bring in more women by 2020. This is a company

00:15:19.580 that is doing everything it can to encourage women, support women, and to pay them fairly

00:15:24.140 and equally. And this is the reason for their pay gap. But that was not at the top of the article.

00:15:28.860 That was, if you're lucky, at the bottom.

00:15:31.620 So those big statistics sell.

00:15:34.340 I think there's a real effort right now to press the reset button on the gender pay gap. 0.99

00:15:38.860 It really wasn't that long ago, you know, 40 years ago,

00:15:41.840 where you could see a genuine pay gap that was based on discrimination,

00:15:45.920 that women got paid less than men.

00:15:47.840 And that has closed so dramatically for a lot of reasons,

00:15:51.480 including the fact that women are getting better educated. 1.00

00:15:53.780 They're more educated than men on average, and they're going on to do those top jobs.

00:15:57.980 You know, they're extremely motivated.

00:15:59.420 There isn't that glass ceiling anymore.

00:16:01.660 And, you know, that pay gap has been shrinking and shrinking and shrinking, which is great news.

00:16:06.520 It's a wonderful story to tell, especially young women.

00:16:09.560 And a lot of these groups that do very well perpetuating that victimhood mentality need to press a reset button.

00:16:16.640 They need to be able to say that something's still wrong here in order to have relevance.

00:16:20.040 And they've been really successful.

00:16:21.660 I mean, up until April, the pay gap, the biggest one you could come up with was 18.4%, but that's quite misleading.

00:16:29.320 You know, we've got this great story about 9.1%, negative 5.1%.

00:16:33.220 And then they get these big businesses without much context at all to publish their pay gap statistics.

00:16:39.000 And now they can say 52% gender pay gap, 70% gender pay gap. 0.84

00:16:44.780 It's as if, you know, the past 50 years didn't exist.

00:16:48.600 And that's great for them.

00:16:50.860 It's a really bad message for normal women 1.00

00:16:52.500 who are just going to work in the morning,

00:16:53.980 pouring a cup of coffee,

00:16:55.380 now thinking to themselves,

00:16:56.500 oh, I work for Easy Chat.

00:16:57.560 Are they discriminating against me?

00:16:59.280 No.

00:17:00.080 They want to perpetuate you.

00:17:01.360 They want to bring you up.

00:17:02.320 They want to propel you to top spots, actually.

00:17:05.440 But if you just read the headline,

00:17:07.240 a lot of people do,

00:17:08.860 you're going to have a pretty negative attitude.

00:17:11.080 So that's my slightly more skeptical perspective.

00:17:13.700 I think they're trying to push the reset button

00:17:15.300 to make this issue still relevant.

00:17:18.020 I think it's really terrible for young women,

00:17:20.220 especially to see this so the gender pay gap i think is a really really good example of how 0.50

00:17:31.360 statistics can be used to prove anything that you want them to prove at all because it all depends

00:17:37.060 on what we measure so if you want to make the gender pay gap seem massive then what you do is

00:17:44.320 you look at the earnings of all men and the earnings of all women and you compare them with 0.54

00:17:49.060 each other and surprise surprise you find out that women earn less than men but obviously what 0.83

00:17:54.520 that's not taking into account is the hours that men and women work the jobs that men and women do

00:18:00.240 and this fact that we've already mentioned you know in the past men and women weren't as equal

00:18:05.980 as they are today so if you look at the top rungs of careers where people have been working for 30

00:18:12.700 40 years they've reached the absolute top of their profession you are more likely to find men

00:18:17.580 in those positions so if you do that you take all men's wages all women's wages you find a very very

00:18:23.740 big gender pay gap but basically the more we compare like for like so the more you look at

00:18:29.220 men and women doing the same jobs for the same number of hours for the same level of experience

00:18:35.380 then the pay gap gets narrower and narrower and narrower and eventually comparing like for like

00:18:42.240 it disappears altogether there's no gender pay gap if you look at men and women who are both

00:18:47.720 doing the same job same length of time same number of hours each week and of course that's the case

00:18:54.480 I mean you just think about this for like a minute or two because for one thing it's illegal so if

00:18:59.780 you took two people who are doing the exact same job exact same hours exact same level and the man

00:19:06.320 was being paid more the woman could take this company the boss to court you know it would be 1.00

00:19:10.580 illegal. They would be breaking the law. But there's an even more common sense argument as

00:19:15.940 well. If bosses could get away with paying women substantially less for doing the exact same work 1.00

00:19:24.300 as men do, but just cheaper, why would any boss anywhere ever employ a man? Why would you get a 0.97

00:19:32.040 man to do the job? Well, it's interesting that you say that because we are recording this and

00:19:36.460 And by the time this goes out, it will be a couple of weeks from today, probably.

00:19:39.840 The guest whose episode we've just released is a lady called Dr. Pippa Malgram, who is a good friend and a wonderful person.

00:19:48.380 She is a former advisor to an American president, founder of her own company, et cetera.

00:19:52.940 And when we talked to her, we asked her about the pay gap as well.

00:19:55.460 And she said that as a speaker after her political career and all the rest of it, she actually had her own agent, speaking agent, say to her, your metrics are great.

00:20:04.620 You're getting better performances than your male counterparts, but we cannot get you the 1.00

00:20:08.640 same fees because you're a woman. 1.00

00:20:10.640 So there is some, I mean, not everyone is rational, not everyone, I mean, you say it's

00:20:17.500 illegal and it is, but people do illegal stuff all the time, right?

00:20:21.260 So there's probably a small element of discrimination that is part of what causes the gender pay 1.00

00:20:26.980 gap.

00:20:27.140 I totally hear your argument about these averages being useless, essentially, in measuring

00:20:31.580 the real gender pay gap.

00:20:33.220 but um so my question you think there's no discrimination against women at all in the

00:20:38.760 workplace i mean i i don't know the woman who you've you've um just interviewed and i'm really

00:20:44.280 looking forward to yeah i'll watch that interview with great interest but i i mean some personal

00:20:49.260 advice from me to her you know and i'm sure she's she probably won't watch and won't appreciate this

00:20:54.020 but if i was her i'd sack that that's exactly what she did well kipa's great she's not anyway 1.00

00:20:58.740 she's not someone who would whine or complain she took action sack that agent get yourself 1.00

00:21:03.100 But my point is she's a very, very accomplished, very powerful person who's made a great success of her life.

00:21:10.880 Not every person is, I'm not as accomplished or successful and I'm, you know, so not everyone is capable necessarily of that.

00:21:19.220 Not everyone is in a position where their value is so high that they can do that.

00:21:22.900 Definitely. Well, I think there's a couple of things to say here.

00:21:25.220 I mean, for one thing, I think that when we compare, I mean, so we hear on the news, you know,

00:21:32.480 about women who work at the BBC being paid a lot less than men.

00:21:36.460 So there was even a story about Martina Navratilova

00:21:39.880 when she was doing the commentary at the Wimbledon,

00:21:43.420 at the tennis, being paid less than, I can't, Bjorn Borg?

00:21:47.540 No, McEnroe, John McEnroe, doing,

00:21:51.400 or likewise, doing coverage of Wimbledon.

00:21:55.160 But then you stop and you look at this, you know,

00:21:56.980 McEnroe was a much bigger personality.

00:21:59.040 He was the one who was fronting the BBC's coverage.

00:22:02.480 he was doing 10 times as much of a live broadcast as Navratilova was. So again, you just were not

00:22:10.260 comparing like for like. And the way the story appears is like, oh, poor Martina Navratilova, 0.99

00:22:15.940 isn't it terrible? All this discrimination. So we had another story about Claire Foy and Matt

00:22:21.160 Smith in The Crown. You know, Claire Foy was being paid less than Matt Smith. Isn't this terrible?

00:22:26.800 She was in the lead role, et cetera, et cetera. Apart from before The Crown, who had heard of

00:22:31.120 Claire Foy, you know, not me, whereas Matt Smith had been Doctor Who. So when we talk about speakers,

00:22:37.520 celebrities, sports stars, their salaries are not worked out in the same way. I mean,

00:22:43.600 if you are working in McDonald's, and you say, you know, actually, I'd like to negotiate a bit

00:22:48.700 of a pay rise here. Good luck with that. They show you the door. But this is not to say that

00:22:53.920 I don't think there's any truth in what you're saying. I do think that there's a perhaps a

00:22:57.820 confidence issue for women, where they are less likely to push themselves forward, perhaps 0.98

00:23:03.420 undervalue themselves. You know, I've certainly been in cases, particularly when I speak at

00:23:09.480 American universities, and they'll ask me, well, what's your going rate? And I'm like, oh, my God,

00:23:14.440 I have no idea how to answer this question. And the fear is, if you, well, my fear is you pitch

00:23:20.700 yourself too high, they're going to say no, thank you and laugh. And you end up underselling myself

00:23:25.800 as a result but do you know what I think feminism today doesn't help women with that confidence 1.00

00:23:31.920 problem I think the more we hear it's so shit being a woman it's so awful the more you do then 0.99

00:23:39.140 begin to undervalue yourself you you think then when people undervalue you you think oh yes this 0.99

00:23:46.060 is just what life's like for being a woman because it's really awful and terrible so I think the best 1.00

00:23:52.660 thing feminism could do for women would be to say actually there's loads of opportunities out there 1.00

00:23:58.420 never been a better time to be a woman get out there take advantage of all these opportunities 0.99

00:24:04.440 don't sit at home underselling yourself

00:24:07.100 if you enjoyed this week as always follow us uh on trigger at trigger pod on twitter

00:24:14.080 instagram we're on facebook as well i'm constantin kitchen you can find me on twitter at

00:24:18.300 constance and kitchen uh i'm francis foster you can find me on twitter at failing human

00:24:22.560 um yeah send me abuse as well mostly people just do it about my face if you've enjoyed it uh please

00:24:29.620 give us a rating five stars say something nice uh tell a friend about it we are on itunes we are on

00:24:36.740 what's the new one the pocket one pocket cast i think is it pocket cast i can never get on that

00:24:41.620 yeah yeah producer doesn't know either we're screwed yeah he's just looking at us blankly

00:24:47.420 subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're building up our audience. And we'll be back next week with

00:24:51.840 another episode. Thanks very much. And you need to help you again for next week. Right. I'll see you soon.

00:24:55.940 Thanks. Bye.

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TRIGGERnometry - December 24, 2018

The Truths and Myths of the Gender Pay Gap

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