TRIGGERnometry - ＂The West Has Lost Its Confidence＂ - Frank Furedi

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00:00:30.820 Suddenly we find that, especially with COVID and the Ukrainian war, that suddenly the world is breaking up.

00:00:39.480 And everybody's looking, you know, what side they should be on.

00:00:43.400 They could pretend that, you know, it's us and the United States, we run the world.

00:00:48.480 And now all of a sudden you wake up one morning and you realize that you're just a large regional power.

00:00:55.480 And I think for those people, a lot of those people, that came as a bit of a shock and they basically began to sort of blame the West for the predicament they were in.

00:01:06.360 You know, you know, you can't blame the war on this single individual.

00:01:10.480 There's a whole system at play there.

00:01:12.700 There's a lot of interests that are at work.

00:01:14.960 And if Putin is taken out, then somebody else will replace him who might smile a little bit more than Putin does.

00:01:23.720 But essentially, things will pretty much remain the same.

00:01:27.960 One of my fears, you know, is not just simply what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

00:01:33.480 One of my fears is what will happen if Russia implodes, the Federation implodes.

00:01:37.280 It's because, you know, the Russian Federation is by no means as coherent and stable as it looks.

00:01:44.720 A lot of the republics, you know, sort of that exist within the Russian Federation are dying to get out of that Federation.

00:01:51.900 They're all looking somewhere else.

00:02:02.900 Hey, Francis, do you like journalism?

00:02:05.520 Of course!

00:02:06.100 So who's your favourite journalist then?

00:02:07.980 Superman.

00:02:08.940 What?

00:02:09.680 Superman.

00:02:10.720 Superman isn't a real person, Francis. 0.99

00:02:13.200 He's an alien, he's not a journalist, and more importantly, he's fucking fictional, mate. 0.92

00:02:18.200 If he was fictional, then why did Friedrich Nietzsche write about Superman, otherwise known as Übermensch, 0.99

00:02:25.000 in his seminal work, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, published in 1883,

00:02:29.780 but still widely quoted today by both students and intellectuals alike?

00:02:34.720 Sometimes, Francis, I feel as if I have no clue who you really are.

00:02:39.040 But if you do like journalism, then you have to check out the Epoch Times.

00:02:43.060 The Epoch Times, unlike most media organisations, is produced without the influence of any government, corporation or political party.

00:02:51.600 They distill a story down to the facts and get readers as close to the truth as they can.

00:02:57.080 The articles are free from the influence of big tech, corporate media and socialist and communist forces as well.

00:03:03.160 The Epoch Times believe the more facts you have at your disposal, the better able you are to preserve your rights.

00:03:10.000 Here's what the readers say about them.

00:03:12.020 The articles present a factual picture of the news from a conservative and American perspective.

00:03:17.220 I feel the Epoch Times is the only publication out there that gives me factual information about stories in the news

00:03:24.280 that other outlets and publications blatantly report with liberal political biases.

00:03:30.100 Go to epochtim.es forward slash trigonometry and click the link.

00:03:35.980 That's Epoch, Tim, E-P-O-C-H-T-I-M dot E-S slash trigonometry.

00:03:45.460 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:03:48.860 I'm Francis Foster.

00:03:50.140 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:03:51.280 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:03:56.660 Our brilliant guest today is an emeritus professor at the University of Kent

00:04:00.720 and a prolific author, not least of his latest book, which is this,

00:04:05.240 The Road to Ukraine, How the West Lost Its Way.

00:04:07.720 Frank Farady, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:04:09.260 Real pleasure to talk to you guys.

00:04:10.640 We've been meaning to have you on for a while and this is a good opportunity to do that.

00:04:14.700 Before we get into talking about your latest book, tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are,

00:04:19.540 what has been your journey through life, leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:04:23.340 Well, it all began in 1956 in the Hungarian Revolution, when my parents and I were very active fighting the Russians

00:04:31.660 and decided to leave when the revolution was crushed.

00:04:36.320 Ended up in Canada.

00:04:37.320 I grew up in Canada where I studied politics and decided to come to London to do my PhD.

00:04:44.540 The plan was to go back to Canada, but I just kind of never went back.

00:04:48.560 I realized I was a European and got involved in radical left politics at that stage in time, a student radical.

00:04:56.540 I'm one of those 60s persons that has no regrets.

00:05:00.040 I really enjoyed those years.

00:05:02.620 They were real good fun.

00:05:03.400 And then gradually, with the passing of time, the world changed.

00:05:08.200 I found myself being drawn more and more in a slightly different direction than even a greater direction

00:05:14.080 towards becoming much more interested in old classical liberal ideas.

00:05:22.840 And at the end of the day, I became very active politically and commented on political cultural issues

00:05:29.260 whilst being a professor at the university.

00:05:31.960 And today, I've got the honor of being called, in any day of the week, a Marxist by some people

00:05:40.400 and a fascist by other people.

00:05:42.380 But I just think I'm a regular guy, you know, sort of with strong views.

00:05:45.940 Well, welcome to the club.

00:05:47.160 I think we all get called that.

00:05:48.840 When was the last time you were called a Marxist, mate?

00:05:52.040 Exactly.

00:05:52.600 Yeah, that is true.

00:05:53.340 That doesn't happen to us too much.

00:05:55.840 A left-wing shill.

00:05:57.800 Yes, neoliberal shill.

00:05:58.980 That's just what your girlfriend calls you. 0.96

00:06:00.160 Anyway, Frank, you've got a book out, as smooth as that transition is, which is called The

00:06:05.540 Road to Ukraine. 0.59

00:06:07.020 And one of the things you talk about is our inability to understand the role of the past

00:06:13.460 in forming the present.

00:06:15.500 And you talk about how this conflict has its roots in World War I, which, let's be honest,

00:06:20.820 wasn't covered heavily in the mainstream media news coverage of this conflict.

00:06:25.460 So take it away.

00:06:27.720 Well, the way that I look at it is that in the First World War, everything became disrupted

00:06:32.700 in Europe, particularly all over the world.

00:06:35.920 So you had the Russian Revolution that kind of kicked in as a result of that.

00:06:41.700 You had the breakup of the different empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire,

00:06:47.460 the German Empire.

00:06:48.340 They're all kind of disintegrated.

00:06:50.640 And this led to a chain of events where all kinds of national ethnic conflicts became

00:06:57.220 very, very important.

00:06:58.300 They were all unresolved, which meant that nobody was surprised when the Second World War 0.98

00:07:03.660 broke out.

00:07:04.820 And people thought, well, that might bring things to an end.

00:07:08.720 History is probably going to become easier from here onwards.

00:07:11.800 But then the Cold War kicked in.

00:07:14.580 And what happened was that when the Cold War finished, and in particular when the Soviet 0.76

00:07:18.320 Union disintegrated, a lot of people imagined that that's history.

00:07:23.540 That's the past.

00:07:24.460 I mean, now living in a new world.

00:07:26.480 And they imagined that, you know, they had this fantasy that somehow Europe was going to

00:07:31.800 become peaceful.

00:07:33.180 Books were written with the title of how wars had become obsolete.

00:07:37.460 How we're not going to have a harmonious existence.

00:07:40.340 The Germans in particular imagined that they could somehow seduce the Russians by, through

00:07:47.900 economic trade, that somehow economic trade would lead to democracy and it would lead to

00:07:53.380 the liberalization of cultural life, both in China and in Russia.

00:07:58.180 And then all of a sudden we realized that wars, you know, which were not supposed to happen,

00:08:04.040 are very real and are very contemporary.

00:08:05.820 And what I'm arguing in the book is that by forgetting what history was about, I call it

00:08:11.360 historical amnesia, we somehow lost our way and failed to realize that there is a legacy

00:08:19.520 there.

00:08:19.880 There's a burden of history there that we've got to engage with a little bit more sort

00:08:24.660 of creatively than we're doing at the moment.

00:08:26.660 Otherwise, we're going to be caught unaware as we did when Russia invaded the Ukraine.

00:08:31.440 Isn't part of the problem, Frank, I know Konstantin always talks about this, is that we believe

00:08:36.580 in the West that everybody thinks like us.

00:08:39.260 And the reality is that they don't.

00:08:41.500 They have, they see the world in a different way.

00:08:43.480 They have different goals.

00:08:45.620 And as a result, they're going to do different things.

00:08:48.900 I think that's true.

00:08:49.740 And that need not be a problem.

00:08:51.080 I don't think there's any need for everybody to kind of talk to the same script.

00:08:57.680 So I've got no problem with that.

00:08:59.340 And when you go to Russia or when you go to East Europe, there's something nice in their

00:09:03.740 particular interpretation of the world, the way they see things.

00:09:08.420 But I think where there was a problem was imagining that somehow through the imperative of the market

00:09:16.900 and through economic relations, that somehow consumerism and capitalism would seduce everybody

00:09:23.820 to become just like we are.

00:09:27.280 And that somehow that would transcend their historical and cultural legacy.

00:09:31.460 And not really understand that when you sit down with a Russian or a Polish person or a Latvian person,

00:09:37.940 you're talking to somebody who sees the world from a very different perspective

00:09:41.020 than somebody living in Manchester.

00:09:44.340 Frank, so how has that manifested?

00:09:46.120 We talked, let's come back to World War I because you've got these huge empires that collapse.

00:09:51.880 They leave a lot of simmering national conflicts.

00:09:55.920 How is that related to the war in Ukraine?

00:09:58.400 I mean, I think I have an interpretation, but tell our audience.

00:10:02.380 Well, I think that the Ukraine became this battlefield for competing national interests.

00:10:08.480 And during the 20th century, it was dominated and invaded by a variety of different nations,

00:10:14.700 from the Germans to the Russians to the Czechs, the Hungarians went in there as well.

00:10:20.200 And the Ukraine wasn't really a nation, you know, in the sovereign sense of the term until much, much later,

00:10:27.280 even though in a very strong national movement in the Ukraine that hoped that after the First World War,

00:10:34.260 Ukraine would be given self-determination.

00:10:37.160 The Russians, the Soviet government promised them this new Ukrainian federation, which would be almost like a nation,

00:10:45.120 but it really wasn't.

00:10:46.860 But what's interesting is that when you go to Ukraine, it is like a very layered society with different historical interest in it.

00:10:55.400 And I remember, because I started off the book with my trip to the Ukraine,

00:10:59.680 and I was really walking around in a place in Transcarpathia, which I heard so much about from my parents.

00:11:08.540 And there are these different layers.

00:11:10.200 You see, you know, like you go to the church, and on the church door it says there's a mass for, in Slovakian,

00:11:18.220 on Monday, on Tuesday we have a mass for the Hungarians, on Wednesday it's for Ukrainians.

00:11:24.460 And it's even now, it's got these different layers of historical influences.

00:11:28.760 And I felt that when I went into Ukraine, I just stepped into history.

00:11:33.100 It really had an emotional, psychologically, you know, sort of unexpected impact on me,

00:11:39.840 because I felt that I was time-traveling.

00:11:42.980 I was going back and forth, at least in my own head,

00:11:45.980 because I was seeing traces of the past everywhere that I went that were not always Ukrainian,

00:11:52.040 but the Ukrainian was in there.

00:11:53.740 And I could really understand why it is that Ukraine had this very difficult predicament,

00:11:59.200 and is going to have that difficult predicament, unfortunately, for some time to come.

00:12:04.080 And you say that, and we're looking at the First World War,

00:12:07.180 what are the other parallels that you see between what happened with the First World War and the current situation, Frank?

00:12:12.980 Well, I think the main parallel with then and now is not so much the First World War,

00:12:20.800 but the years leading up to it.

00:12:22.540 Because the years leading up to it was, I'm talking about essentially from about 1910 to 1914,

00:12:29.000 were years when the old order was breaking down.

00:12:33.420 You know, we had this golden era in Europe,

00:12:35.440 and all of a sudden that golden era was coming to an end.

00:12:39.160 You had internal domestic tensions.

00:12:42.560 Can I just stop you there?

00:12:43.860 Because I don't think a lot of people will know about this.

00:12:46.140 What do you mean by a golden era in the early 20th century, Frank?

00:12:49.840 Well, the late Victorian era ends in the 19th century.

00:12:52.900 And if you go anywhere in Central Europe, you'll find these beautiful buildings.

00:12:56.220 And they were all essentially built between 1890 and 1905, roughly.

00:13:03.380 Because that's really when, due to the Industrial Revolution,

00:13:06.700 due to the relative economic prosperity, not for everybody,

00:13:11.200 but for the middle classes, really began to kick in.

00:13:14.460 That's the beginning of what we call consumerist society in Europe.

00:13:18.260 And everybody's saying, this is really incredible.

00:13:20.440 Now, some Bohemians feel upset because life's too easy,

00:13:24.220 and you have the new avant-garde kind of emerging at that time.

00:13:27.640 But by and large, this was an unprecedented era of peace.

00:13:31.720 I mean, decades and decades of peace in inverted commas in Europe.

00:13:35.580 And why does this start to break down?

00:13:37.560 I think it begins to break down because national tensions and rivalries,

00:13:44.060 principally between Britain and Germany.

00:13:46.740 But then also within that kind of context,

00:13:48.880 you have a lot of conflicts begin to emerge.

00:13:51.640 And nobody knows who's going to be on what side.

00:13:54.900 Because until that point, Britain, the British Empire,

00:13:58.460 is the hegemonic power in the globe.

00:14:00.240 But it's losing its economic muscles.

00:14:03.140 So what you then have is a situation where, for example,

00:14:06.860 new alliances get created.

00:14:08.580 And nobody knows who's going to be on what side.

00:14:10.480 So just to give you an example,

00:14:12.800 you know, sort of when the war breaks out,

00:14:16.100 Italy is not yet clear, you know,

00:14:19.060 whether they're going to be on the side of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Germany,

00:14:25.060 or whether they're going to be with England and France and America.

00:14:28.080 And at the very last minute, they change.

00:14:30.400 And you have all these, you know,

00:14:31.620 Turks begin to change. 0.99

00:14:32.920 Everybody's positioning themselves.

00:14:34.100 And so you have this kind of world

00:14:37.060 that you cannot predict how it's going to unfold.

00:14:40.340 And to me, the situation today is very similar

00:14:43.140 in the sense that that ethos of globalization

00:14:46.480 that we were led to believe would last forever,

00:14:49.580 where national interest and the nation state

00:14:51.600 would diminish significantly,

00:14:53.780 suddenly we find that,

00:14:55.920 especially with COVID and the Ukrainian war,

00:14:59.220 that suddenly the world is breaking up.

00:15:01.600 And everybody's looking, you know,

00:15:03.960 what side they should be on.

00:15:05.500 And people wonder whether, you know,

00:15:07.760 Taiwan should be defended or not defended. 0.99

00:15:10.680 People are wondering whether Europe should make an effort to pull together

00:15:14.680 or, you know,

00:15:15.760 are the Germans and the French just going to go their own way?

00:15:18.300 So it's a very kind of fluid, dynamic situation.

00:15:21.280 And it just so happens that in the middle of that,

00:15:23.840 you've got this war in the Ukraine.

00:15:25.520 And it just so happens that in the middle of that,

00:15:27.220 we discovered this week that Armenia and Azerbaijan,

00:15:32.140 which are not small, insignificant states,

00:15:35.680 are fighting a little mini war,

00:15:38.200 a kind of a sideshow,

00:15:39.220 which could turn out to be even more significant

00:15:41.160 than the war in the Ukraine itself.

00:15:44.000 And it's interesting where we're talking about that

00:15:46.740 because you're talking about, you know,

00:15:49.240 the decades of peace and prosperity.

00:15:51.820 And it seems that, well, it doesn't seem,

00:15:53.280 that's what we've enjoyed here.

00:15:54.740 Do you think that people get lulled into a sense of security,

00:16:00.960 thinking, you know, there's good times,

00:16:04.180 nobody's at war, therefore we've eliminated war?

00:16:07.660 I think there is that problem,

00:16:09.560 particularly in the Anglo-American world.

00:16:12.420 And in the book,

00:16:12.960 I talk about the geopolitical illiteracy

00:16:15.400 that you have in Britain,

00:16:17.020 where you have a foreign office,

00:16:18.200 where I meet guys from the foreign office

00:16:20.520 and they don't speak a foreign language.

00:16:22.420 Really?

00:16:22.680 Absolutely, yeah.

00:16:24.140 I mean, the foreign office was famous

00:16:25.520 for their, you know, Arab speakers.

00:16:28.460 The Times last week reported

00:16:30.260 that we haven't got enough Mandarin speakers

00:16:33.300 in the foreign office.

00:16:34.400 And this is obviously a very serious matter

00:16:37.140 because China is one of the big issues of our time.

00:16:40.400 So we have this geopolitical illiteracy

00:16:42.660 where people are not very good at

00:16:44.000 anticipating and calculating.

00:16:46.140 And I think that our elites have become uniquely ineffective

00:16:51.580 in dealing with geopolitical issues.

00:16:55.060 And what is the role of the Cold War

00:16:57.980 and the post-Cold War period and what's happened?

00:17:01.080 Because, you know, people argue that,

00:17:04.660 I mean, I have some difficulty with this argument,

00:17:07.920 but people do make the argument that, you know,

00:17:10.840 Russia wasn't treated the way it should have been treated

00:17:13.040 after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

00:17:14.900 We needed a Marshall Plan.

00:17:16.840 We needed to help Russia onto its feet. 0.95

00:17:19.420 And later, in fact, NATO started to encroach

00:17:22.500 on Russia's strategic interest.

00:17:25.000 And so, and this is the cause,

00:17:26.140 the sort of like Western arrogance

00:17:29.140 and lack of respect for Russia.

00:17:32.700 I wouldn't put it like that.

00:17:34.900 There is a Western influence there,

00:17:36.860 which wasn't very helpful.

00:17:38.320 And that happened in the Yeltsin period.

00:17:40.400 You had the major liberalization of the market

00:17:42.760 and you had the privatization of the nomenclatura,

00:17:47.220 the old Soviet elite,

00:17:49.660 who'd basically managed to appropriate for themselves

00:17:52.800 all the state's property,

00:17:55.220 all the state resources,

00:17:56.480 and essentially ripped it off.

00:17:59.800 Creation of the oligarchy.

00:18:01.200 Exactly.

00:18:02.240 So people don't often understand

00:18:04.320 that the West was quite complicit

00:18:06.040 in the creation of the oligarchy.

00:18:08.840 And I think in that sense,

00:18:11.360 you know, they probably imagined

00:18:12.740 that they would turn out to be,

00:18:14.020 you know, good old capitalists

00:18:15.400 like a Rockefeller was or whatever.

00:18:17.960 But what they didn't really understand

00:18:19.140 is that by doing that,

00:18:20.880 you essentially undercut the possibility

00:18:23.460 of a genuine democratic transition

00:18:26.340 because you created the basis

00:18:28.420 for an oligarchical society

00:18:30.280 and an oligarchical state.

00:18:32.360 And oligarchies in general in history

00:18:34.180 are very rarely open to democratic pressure.

00:18:37.600 They're not going to be particularly accountable.

00:18:39.620 So I think that was a problem.

00:18:41.840 Opportunity was lost at that particular moment

00:18:44.300 in terms of, you know,

00:18:46.240 having a much more,

00:18:48.620 both hands-off attitude,

00:18:50.220 but also I think not encouraging this kind of,

00:18:53.780 because a lot of the American other companies

00:18:55.620 went in there

00:18:56.300 to encourage the rise of the oligarchy.

00:18:59.040 So I think that was a tragedy.

00:19:00.900 And I think the second thing,

00:19:02.200 it's not so much that Russia needed a Marshall Plan.

00:19:06.100 I think that there should be much more of an effort

00:19:08.980 to try to bring Russia into NATO.

00:19:12.900 So for example, I remember I was involved,

00:19:15.860 after 9-11, I was involved in a NATO consultant group

00:19:20.560 consisting of Westerners and Russia, Russians.

00:19:23.920 And we were discussing how to deal with a common problem,

00:19:26.680 which was global Islamic terror, 0.72

00:19:29.820 which was as much a problem for them

00:19:31.520 as it was for the West.

00:19:33.540 And we had no problem cooperating.

00:19:37.600 Obviously, we had very different interests and all that.

00:19:40.340 But I kind of wish that we had created much more,

00:19:42.980 much more space where there could have been

00:19:47.260 sort of a kind of dialogue going on,

00:19:51.460 which might have limited the possibility

00:19:54.780 of what eventually then occurs,

00:19:56.820 where you have the unrestrained emergence

00:19:59.800 of grievance politics by Putin,

00:20:03.180 where his kind of Russian identity politics

00:20:06.200 is allowed to flourish.

00:20:08.020 And all that the West does is kind of watches it,

00:20:13.320 you know, sort of,

00:20:14.000 and doesn't really understand

00:20:16.000 that this is a very, very dangerous development.

00:20:19.200 But surely, Frank, as well, we didn't just watch

00:20:21.480 because I think it was during Tony Blair's regime,

00:20:25.660 we allowed billions of dirty Russian money 1.00

00:20:28.920 to flow into the city.

00:20:30.540 So we were also in cahoots.

00:20:32.880 It was in our interests as well.

00:20:35.340 Well, that's what I was getting at earlier on

00:20:36.880 when I was talking about the privatization

00:20:38.460 or the nomenklatura.

00:20:40.280 Because when you look at all the foreign energy companies

00:20:42.920 and the foreign investment bankers

00:20:45.060 and the way that foreign service provider,

00:20:47.540 the big four like KPMG,

00:20:49.020 all these big organizations went into Russia

00:20:52.580 because the way they looked at it,

00:20:54.720 they could clean up

00:20:55.460 and they did really, really well

00:20:57.040 out of that whole situation.

00:20:58.920 And they created what they thought

00:21:00.400 was just like a comprador,

00:21:02.700 subservient, oligarchical class

00:21:05.300 and not understanding that the state,

00:21:09.600 in essence, had not changed all that much.

00:21:12.720 It was privatized economically, but politically,

00:21:16.100 the layers of the state from the past

00:21:19.560 were still in place.

00:21:22.260 And although the KGB might have changed its name

00:21:25.420 and although the different institutions

00:21:27.820 looked, had a different facade,

00:21:30.420 the fundamentals of that state structure,

00:21:35.440 of that authority and structure remained

00:21:37.100 behind this liberalized, you know,

00:21:39.720 sort of economic visage.

00:21:41.800 Hey, Francis, do you like locals?

00:21:44.360 I live in London, mate, so obviously not.

00:21:46.940 The only pleasure I get from the locals

00:21:49.300 is when we share an intimate moment

00:21:51.200 as we watch a Japanese tourist

00:21:53.260 get trapped in a tube door.

00:21:55.000 That is good.

00:21:56.960 But I wasn't talking about the locals,

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00:22:02.800 You mean the one where you get phenomenal

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00:22:06.220 when you...

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00:22:12.760 like Jordan Peterson,

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00:22:22.780 Not just that,

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00:23:17.720 And people don't actually understand

00:23:20.640 that, you know,

00:23:21.440 at the high levels,

00:23:22.300 there's still, you know,

00:23:23.140 just like in the Soviet Union 0.56

00:23:24.400 and in the Russian Empire before,

00:23:26.320 there is no private property in Russia.

00:23:28.340 The oligarchs don't own 1.00

00:23:29.940 the assets that they own.

00:23:31.200 They can be taken away

00:23:32.220 just like that

00:23:33.280 if you displease the czar

00:23:34.900 or the president

00:23:35.840 or whoever is the general secretary.

00:23:37.400 But come back to grievance politics

00:23:41.920 and Russian identity politics.

00:23:43.820 What are you talking about, Frank?

00:23:45.860 Well, I think that what happened

00:23:48.360 was that many people

00:23:50.560 in the Russian elite,

00:23:52.940 you know, sort of resented

00:23:54.180 the fact that Russia

00:23:56.360 was now going to become

00:23:57.500 a second-rate regional power

00:24:00.160 rather than a global superpower.

00:24:02.400 And they never got over the fact

00:24:03.960 that there was this massive change

00:24:05.560 in the status.

00:24:07.200 Even though between you and me,

00:24:09.160 even before the end of the Cold War,

00:24:10.460 it was evident that

00:24:11.300 Russian omnipotence 1.00

00:24:13.360 was more apparent than real. 0.97

00:24:15.640 It was a very weak, failed state

00:24:18.120 even before that.

00:24:20.500 But nevertheless,

00:24:21.100 they could pretend

00:24:21.880 that, you know,

00:24:23.240 it's us and the United States.

00:24:24.580 We run the world.

00:24:26.080 And now, all of a sudden,

00:24:27.020 you wake up one morning

00:24:28.040 and you realize

00:24:29.640 that you're just a large regional power.

00:24:33.180 And I think for those people,

00:24:34.660 a lot of those people,

00:24:35.560 that came as a bit of a shock

00:24:37.540 and they basically began

00:24:39.040 to sort of blame the West

00:24:41.700 for the predicament they were in.

00:24:44.560 You know, Russia always had 1.00

00:24:45.480 this interesting culture

00:24:47.480 between the Russia-fires

00:24:49.360 and the Western,

00:24:50.720 you know, sort of people

00:24:52.000 that wanted to make Russia 0.95

00:24:53.480 look like the West.

00:24:55.100 If you read Dostoevsky or Tolstoy,

00:24:57.200 you will find those elements

00:24:59.840 already exist in the 19th century.

00:25:02.280 And I think at a certain point,

00:25:03.940 that kind of animus

00:25:05.840 against the West

00:25:06.820 converged with this attempt

00:25:08.900 to create this Russian mystique,

00:25:12.320 which then meant that

00:25:13.400 it provided a certain kind of

00:25:14.940 ideological understanding for them

00:25:17.960 that somehow, you know,

00:25:18.880 we were robbed.

00:25:20.400 And of course,

00:25:21.040 they were robbed,

00:25:22.260 but they were robbed

00:25:23.000 by themselves, right?

00:25:24.260 And of course,

00:25:25.180 by the West as well,

00:25:25.880 but principally,

00:25:27.480 it was a domestic accomplishment.

00:25:28.880 And as Konstantin said,

00:25:30.800 what they ended up doing

00:25:31.800 was keep the state intact

00:25:33.920 and then turn these oligarchs 0.99

00:25:36.320 into a modern high-tech group

00:25:38.140 of courtiers,

00:25:40.080 you know,

00:25:40.320 who are there at the pleasure,

00:25:42.460 you know,

00:25:42.760 of Putin

00:25:43.360 or whoever happens

00:25:45.060 to be in power.

00:25:46.060 Well, see,

00:25:46.560 this is why I have this issue

00:25:48.260 with this argument

00:25:49.060 about the West complicity.

00:25:50.360 I have no doubt

00:25:50.900 that Western corporations

00:25:52.060 profited massively

00:25:53.160 from the collapse

00:25:54.140 of the nation.

00:25:55.920 But is it,

00:25:56.940 I mean,

00:25:57.240 the way I look at it,

00:25:58.240 someone who grew up

00:25:59.380 in Russia during that period

00:26:00.520 is,

00:26:01.080 is it the West's fault 0.95

00:26:02.440 that Russia,

00:26:03.340 the Soviet Union

00:26:04.040 lost the Cold War?

00:26:04.980 Because that's what

00:26:05.520 we're really talking about.

00:26:06.440 The resentment politics

00:26:07.540 and the grievance

00:26:08.360 inevitably comes

00:26:10.160 from loss of status

00:26:11.620 and loss of power,

00:26:12.820 which is particularly

00:26:14.380 an acute issue

00:26:15.840 for Russians.

00:26:16.480 They always have been obsessed

00:26:17.780 with their role

00:26:18.800 in the world,

00:26:19.560 being powerful.

00:26:20.460 It's literally

00:26:20.880 the number one objective

00:26:22.440 for people in Russia

00:26:24.200 to think about it.

00:26:25.000 Is it our fault

00:26:27.060 that we won the Cold War

00:26:28.280 here in the West?

00:26:29.820 Well, I mean,

00:26:30.800 if the reality

00:26:31.580 is that Russia

00:26:32.480 lost the Cold War

00:26:34.900 a long time

00:26:35.780 before it did.

00:26:36.980 Yes.

00:26:37.680 And that was because,

00:26:38.820 number one,

00:26:39.360 it lost its moral authority.

00:26:41.700 That was already

00:26:42.460 the case

00:26:42.920 in the Stalinist era

00:26:44.480 where its ideological

00:26:46.820 and moral appeal

00:26:47.820 began to diminish.

00:26:50.120 Secondly,

00:26:51.200 it lost the Cold War

00:26:52.320 because it turned out

00:26:53.900 in the 1970s

00:26:55.200 that it had reached

00:26:57.480 a limit

00:26:57.960 in economic terms.

00:26:59.200 It couldn't really

00:27:00.040 make the transition

00:27:01.400 from a heavy

00:27:02.800 industry-based society

00:27:04.160 to one that was

00:27:05.500 technologically superior.

00:27:07.080 It couldn't really do that.

00:27:07.940 It could no longer compete

00:27:09.180 in any sense whatsoever

00:27:11.480 against the West

00:27:12.240 in economic terms.

00:27:13.900 Why was that, Frank?

00:27:15.260 Because in order to

00:27:16.740 make the transition

00:27:18.520 from heavy industry

00:27:20.160 to more sophisticated

00:27:21.880 technology,

00:27:23.340 you need to have

00:27:24.500 some kind of

00:27:25.040 system of incentive.

00:27:26.520 You need to have

00:27:27.640 much greater freedom

00:27:28.760 for people to experiment

00:27:30.040 than was possible

00:27:32.260 in the old Soviet regime.

00:27:34.660 And the Soviet regime

00:27:35.760 could build big roads

00:27:39.420 and railway systems

00:27:40.760 and heavy industry

00:27:41.980 because that just meant

00:27:42.820 they could throw

00:27:43.760 a lot of labor at it.

00:27:45.540 Hundreds of thousands

00:27:46.500 of people could be

00:27:47.340 thrown at it

00:27:48.020 without necessarily

00:27:49.100 having the technological

00:27:51.280 capacity to do this.

00:27:53.180 So the Russian economy

00:27:54.280 began to fall.

00:27:55.720 It still looked good

00:27:57.020 because where they wanted

00:27:59.600 to do really well,

00:28:01.400 for example,

00:28:01.920 in the nuclear sector

00:28:03.400 or the space technology sector,

00:28:05.960 they would prioritize

00:28:06.800 all their best people

00:28:07.880 and all their best resources

00:28:09.020 to make sure that

00:28:10.340 those sectors

00:28:10.980 of the economy worked.

00:28:12.380 But it was at the expense

00:28:14.340 of everything else.

00:28:15.080 So basically,

00:28:16.340 you could have Sputnik

00:28:17.780 being the first one

00:28:18.780 to go into space.

00:28:19.960 But if you go into

00:28:20.820 a shop in Russia,

00:28:22.680 you know,

00:28:22.940 you couldn't get

00:28:23.980 a watch that worked,

00:28:25.720 a Russian watch that worked

00:28:26.760 or a lighter

00:28:27.300 that actually had,

00:28:29.080 you know,

00:28:29.360 could create flames

00:28:30.420 never mind just making noise.

00:28:32.480 So that was the paradox

00:28:33.360 of the economy.

00:28:34.080 So that came to an end

00:28:34.920 in the 1970s.

00:28:36.020 And it just so happened

00:28:37.340 that when Reagan,

00:28:38.940 you know,

00:28:39.580 turned the screws

00:28:40.380 in terms of the arms rivalry,

00:28:42.900 that was the end of the,

00:28:43.940 you know,

00:28:44.080 and they knew that.

00:28:44.780 They already knew that,

00:28:45.940 you know,

00:28:46.660 even if Ambresonis was alive,

00:28:48.880 that it was only

00:28:49.480 a matter of time

00:28:50.380 before that was the end.

00:28:51.440 And the Russian Stalinist

00:28:53.640 elite themselves

00:28:54.660 had stopped believing in it.

00:28:56.160 And the way you knew

00:28:56.780 that was the case

00:28:57.580 was because they began

00:28:59.100 to send their children

00:29:00.100 to Oxford or to Yale.

00:29:02.660 You know,

00:29:02.920 they all got nice

00:29:04.440 Western degrees.

00:29:05.440 They weren't getting,

00:29:06.720 going to the University

00:29:07.400 of Leningrad or Moscow.

00:29:09.680 They were all going

00:29:10.120 to the West.

00:29:11.260 And that was the beginning

00:29:12.160 of the privatization

00:29:13.420 of this nomenclatura.

00:29:16.160 So, Frank,

00:29:17.140 at the core of this

00:29:18.320 is the Russian leadership

00:29:23.280 and the Chinese leadership,

00:29:24.520 they talk a lot nowadays

00:29:25.900 about a multipolar world.

00:29:28.280 You know,

00:29:28.640 we don't want to live

00:29:29.520 in a world that's dominated 0.90

00:29:30.660 by essentially

00:29:31.620 the Anglosphere,

00:29:32.600 basically America plus, 0.72

00:29:34.040 right?

00:29:34.240 And that is what

00:29:36.880 this is all about,

00:29:37.760 isn't it?

00:29:38.860 I think partially.

00:29:39.980 You have to remember

00:29:40.680 that we don't live

00:29:43.140 in a unipolar world anymore

00:29:44.980 because America,

00:29:47.000 although it's probably

00:29:48.800 the most powerful economy

00:29:50.760 even now,

00:29:51.580 at the moment,

00:29:53.220 more powerful than China, 0.88

00:29:55.020 and although it's got

00:29:56.360 this incredible soft power,

00:29:58.480 cultural influence

00:29:59.400 all over the world,

00:30:00.520 it is no longer hegemonic

00:30:02.500 in the way that he was

00:30:03.280 in the past.

00:30:04.760 So, we are seeing

00:30:06.040 the beginning

00:30:06.540 of a multipolar world

00:30:08.020 whereby you have

00:30:10.040 greater regionalism,

00:30:11.300 greater regional economic ties

00:30:12.840 taking place anyway.

00:30:14.620 And I think that

00:30:15.380 what's happened

00:30:16.140 is that Russia

00:30:17.680 and to a greater extent

00:30:19.240 China

00:30:19.720 are trying to figure out

00:30:21.840 how they could

00:30:22.540 insert themselves

00:30:23.540 into this new world

00:30:24.700 and gain greater power.

00:30:26.400 China is on the up

00:30:28.180 at the moment.

00:30:28.780 People don't realize it,

00:30:29.680 but it's doing

00:30:30.660 remarkably well

00:30:31.500 in geopolitical terms.

00:30:32.660 It's cleaning up

00:30:33.400 in the South Pacific.

00:30:35.480 For example,

00:30:36.260 I don't know if you heard,

00:30:37.060 but there's a place

00:30:37.960 called Solomon Island

00:30:39.060 which used to be run

00:30:40.340 by the Australians

00:30:41.400 and the Americans.

00:30:42.860 And the Chinese 0.97

00:30:43.220 just went in there,

00:30:44.260 bribed everybody,

00:30:45.760 and now they're like

00:30:46.540 the dominant power there.

00:30:47.800 And America wakes up

00:30:49.040 and realizes,

00:30:50.500 you know,

00:30:50.740 much, much too late.

00:30:52.340 Look what has happened.

00:30:53.900 China is very active

00:30:54.800 in Latin America

00:30:55.740 and in Africa.

00:30:56.960 It's very active in Europe.

00:30:59.240 Australia,

00:30:59.960 I mean,

00:31:00.220 when you go to Melbourne

00:31:01.960 or, you know,

00:31:03.020 any of these places,

00:31:04.840 you'll find that

00:31:05.600 it's got a massive

00:31:06.200 influence there.

00:31:07.560 So we are seeing

00:31:09.180 a much more fragmented

00:31:10.400 world order taking place.

00:31:12.400 And the really important question

00:31:13.760 that is indeterminate

00:31:15.560 at the moment

00:31:16.100 is where does Europe

00:31:17.280 fit into all this?

00:31:19.200 To what extent

00:31:19.820 can Europe

00:31:20.600 play a significant role?

00:31:23.940 Because at the moment,

00:31:24.800 Europe is allowing itself

00:31:26.160 to become

00:31:26.760 the bag man

00:31:28.000 for the United States,

00:31:29.000 essentially.

00:31:30.240 It's not taking

00:31:31.040 any initiative.

00:31:32.260 At the same time,

00:31:32.940 it's criticising

00:31:34.040 the Americans

00:31:34.600 for, you know,

00:31:35.980 taking the initiative.

00:31:36.740 But it's not doing anything

00:31:37.480 that could possibly

00:31:39.400 resemble the ambitions

00:31:41.460 of anybody

00:31:42.800 who wants global power.

00:31:44.340 But do you think

00:31:44.820 the problem is as well

00:31:45.820 is that it feels to me,

00:31:47.400 and look,

00:31:47.820 you all know far more

00:31:48.600 about this than I do,

00:31:49.980 but it feels to me

00:31:50.840 like in the West

00:31:51.980 and in Europe

00:31:52.560 in particular,

00:31:53.200 we're more divided

00:31:54.620 than ever.

00:31:55.700 We seem to be

00:31:56.460 at each other's throats, 0.55

00:31:57.880 you know,

00:31:58.760 there's political turmoil

00:32:00.500 happening,

00:32:02.160 we're entering

00:32:03.000 a cost-of-living crisis

00:32:04.460 all over Europe.

00:32:05.460 So I guess my question

00:32:06.920 to you is, Frank,

00:32:07.580 how can we possibly

00:32:08.480 lead the world

00:32:09.160 when we can't even

00:32:09.860 lead our own countries?

00:32:11.580 Well, you know,

00:32:12.240 my book,

00:32:13.040 one of the main points

00:32:14.180 of my book

00:32:14.780 is what I call

00:32:16.220 the moral disarmament

00:32:17.400 of the West.

00:32:18.040 And I think that's,

00:32:19.560 for me,

00:32:19.780 it's a really crucial concept

00:32:21.340 because what that really

00:32:22.240 gets at

00:32:23.620 is that in the West

00:32:25.160 there is no

00:32:27.280 commanding

00:32:28.720 moral system

00:32:30.920 of authority,

00:32:32.040 no moral imagination

00:32:34.020 where you're able

00:32:35.720 to give your people

00:32:36.800 a sense of meaning

00:32:38.440 about what it means

00:32:39.320 to be English

00:32:40.460 or what it means

00:32:41.140 to be French

00:32:41.880 or American.

00:32:43.300 And I think what has happened

00:32:44.220 is that we've become

00:32:44.980 detached from the past.

00:32:46.160 We talked about

00:32:46.720 the loss of historical sense

00:32:48.800 and what you're left with

00:32:50.160 is this very narrow

00:32:51.220 outlook

00:32:52.180 which is a combination

00:32:52.960 of technocratic ambition

00:32:55.220 and identity politics.

00:32:56.420 There are only two things

00:32:57.300 that are going at the moment

00:32:58.740 and what you're really describing

00:33:00.460 is probably

00:33:01.780 the biggest challenge

00:33:02.960 we face

00:33:03.380 because when you look

00:33:04.620 at the United States,

00:33:05.420 it's so polarized.

00:33:07.420 People are so much

00:33:08.800 at each other's throats.

00:33:10.380 It is like going

00:33:11.040 to two different countries,

00:33:12.380 you know,

00:33:12.540 where people literally

00:33:13.820 don't talk to each other anymore.

00:33:15.780 And we get a lot of that here

00:33:16.700 even in Britain

00:33:17.440 but nothing like

00:33:18.620 the same intensity.

00:33:20.140 But that's gradually

00:33:20.960 spreading all over Europe.

00:33:22.940 So that kind of

00:33:23.600 internal division

00:33:24.520 which is not mediated

00:33:26.660 by a common sense

00:33:27.880 that this is what we are,

00:33:30.000 you know,

00:33:30.500 sort of is a huge problem

00:33:31.800 which is why I think

00:33:32.720 as we're speaking

00:33:34.060 we got all this

00:33:34.880 unusual reaction

00:33:36.640 about the Queen's death

00:33:38.840 where suddenly

00:33:39.980 Queen Elizabeth

00:33:41.280 becomes this,

00:33:42.960 you know,

00:33:43.200 essentially she reminds us

00:33:44.980 that history

00:33:46.320 does matter,

00:33:47.540 that there is such a thing

00:33:48.820 as a historical legacy

00:33:50.680 and unless we take

00:33:51.820 that seriously

00:33:52.460 there's nothing,

00:33:53.880 there's no soul

00:33:54.540 on which we can flourish

00:33:55.620 as a society.

00:33:57.040 And that's a real challenge

00:33:59.400 for our society

00:34:00.400 like I said before

00:34:01.380 because you look at China

00:34:03.360 and you look at Russia 0.72

00:34:05.340 and it's far more easy

00:34:07.640 from the outside

00:34:08.960 for them to be unified

00:34:11.160 because they're totalitarian regimes.

00:34:13.700 Whereas what you have

00:34:15.000 with democracy

00:34:16.020 is that you have change

00:34:17.560 and you have free speech

00:34:19.560 and you have partisanship.

00:34:22.280 It's far more difficult,

00:34:23.820 isn't it,

00:34:24.260 to be cohesive

00:34:24.980 in those types of societies?

00:34:27.500 Up to that point

00:34:28.100 I think you're right

00:34:28.820 but I think there's a danger

00:34:30.380 of overstating

00:34:32.660 the capacity

00:34:33.460 of an authoritarian society

00:34:35.860 like Russia or China

00:34:37.020 to create this kind

00:34:38.840 of homogeneous outlook.

00:34:40.480 It looks like that

00:34:41.540 from the outside

00:34:42.200 but there are

00:34:42.860 very important

00:34:43.880 internal tensions

00:34:44.980 occurring there as well

00:34:46.600 and the influence

00:34:48.200 of the West

00:34:48.700 is quite important

00:34:49.860 among sections

00:34:50.540 of Russian

00:34:52.160 or Chinese society.

00:34:53.280 there are regional differences

00:34:55.080 and one of my fears

00:34:57.200 is not just simply

00:34:58.720 what Russia is doing

00:34:59.640 in Ukraine.

00:35:01.680 One of my fears

00:35:02.660 is what will happen

00:35:03.440 if Russia implodes,

00:35:04.620 the federation implodes

00:35:05.560 because

00:35:05.960 the Russian federation

00:35:08.080 is by no means

00:35:09.400 as coherent

00:35:10.140 and stable

00:35:11.500 as it looks.

00:35:13.000 A lot of the republics

00:35:14.400 that exist within

00:35:15.680 the Russian federation

00:35:17.120 are dying to get out

00:35:19.340 of that federation.

00:35:20.040 They're all looking

00:35:20.760 somewhere else.

00:35:21.700 Well, they're not Russian 0.99

00:35:22.440 ethnically for a start.

00:35:23.960 They're not Christian 1.00

00:35:25.100 very often,

00:35:26.040 etc., etc.,

00:35:26.700 which is one of the things

00:35:27.920 that started to happen

00:35:28.740 in the 90s

00:35:29.540 which is why you end up

00:35:31.560 with Putin

00:35:32.000 because the country

00:35:33.140 is collapsing.

00:35:34.020 Chechnya wants to separate.

00:35:35.180 It's just the beginning

00:35:35.900 and they are like,

00:35:37.200 we need to find

00:35:37.760 a strong man leader

00:35:38.560 who's going to crack down

00:35:39.540 and hold the country together.

00:35:42.340 So,

00:35:43.220 what do you think

00:35:44.840 is going to happen

00:35:45.840 with the war in Ukraine

00:35:46.820 and with Russia?

00:35:47.760 Well, in the book

00:35:49.860 I argue

00:35:50.460 that this is a typical

00:35:52.060 frontier war

00:35:53.240 and a frontier war

00:35:55.060 usually means

00:35:55.980 that there are

00:35:58.860 these inbuilt,

00:36:01.080 long,

00:36:02.700 historically rooted

00:36:03.700 sources of tension

00:36:05.940 and the way

00:36:07.300 that I look at it

00:36:08.240 is that for that reason

00:36:09.300 I think this war

00:36:10.140 is not going to end

00:36:10.700 anytime soon

00:36:11.520 because although

00:36:13.060 there's no doubt

00:36:14.420 there will be peace treaties

00:36:15.420 and sort of

00:36:17.540 they will decide

00:36:18.740 to have ceasefires

00:36:19.740 and everything else

00:36:20.620 that's not going to happen

00:36:22.900 because

00:36:23.380 this is a war

00:36:25.100 that Ukraine 0.91

00:36:26.120 cannot win

00:36:29.940 and Russia

00:36:30.640 cannot afford to lose.

00:36:32.620 I think Ukraine

00:36:33.200 came in a major

00:36:33.900 moral victory.

00:36:35.160 It's already done that

00:36:35.980 to some extent.

00:36:37.380 It can hold on

00:36:38.160 to all the territory

00:36:39.080 that Russia 0.72

00:36:40.560 tried to take away

00:36:41.360 from it

00:36:41.800 but at the end of the day

00:36:43.360 Ukraine is Ukraine 0.96

00:36:44.320 and it hasn't got

00:36:45.680 the power and the strength

00:36:46.660 even with Western support

00:36:48.700 to inflict

00:36:49.420 such a blow on Russia

00:36:50.680 that would completely

00:36:53.260 sort of mean

00:36:55.000 that that is really the end.

00:36:57.420 So the way that I see

00:36:58.340 it is that

00:36:59.100 the conflict

00:37:00.200 is going to continue

00:37:00.960 for some time to come

00:37:02.120 and

00:37:02.420 there's nothing

00:37:04.120 we can do

00:37:04.540 about it here and there

00:37:05.340 because it depends

00:37:06.360 upon the people

00:37:07.120 on the ground.

00:37:08.440 All that we can do

00:37:09.120 is hope

00:37:11.220 that somehow

00:37:12.660 a certain breeding space

00:37:14.540 can be created

00:37:15.160 for Ukraine

00:37:15.860 to recharge its battery

00:37:17.580 because it's losing

00:37:19.100 a lot of people.

00:37:20.100 It's losing a lot

00:37:21.680 of its resources

00:37:22.640 and hopefully

00:37:24.500 sort of

00:37:25.620 as the global order

00:37:28.260 reorganizes itself

00:37:29.860 it might be

00:37:31.260 a little bit more difficult

00:37:32.200 to start a new war

00:37:33.380 and that's what

00:37:34.320 I'm really hoping for

00:37:35.260 and I think the key thing

00:37:37.520 is

00:37:37.880 ensuring that

00:37:40.240 everything is done

00:37:41.140 possible

00:37:42.600 to make sure that

00:37:43.580 Ukraine's independence

00:37:46.300 and its capacity

00:37:47.740 to be a sovereign nation

00:37:49.340 is upheld

00:37:49.940 and protected.

00:37:51.640 I think that's

00:37:52.200 the key objective.

00:37:53.660 At the same time

00:37:54.540 I think that

00:37:55.280 we've got to be wary

00:37:56.540 of the possibility

00:37:57.480 of Russia disintegrating

00:37:58.780 and the corrosive

00:38:01.680 and explosive

00:38:02.860 consequences

00:38:03.640 that we'll have

00:38:04.200 in the Caucasian

00:38:05.020 and all the different

00:38:06.760 the Asian parts

00:38:07.820 of the federation

00:38:09.140 which could be

00:38:09.820 could unleash a dynamic

00:38:11.780 that will

00:38:12.320 kind of invite Iran 0.97

00:38:14.580 in

00:38:14.840 bring in Turkey 0.97

00:38:16.220 and God knows

00:38:17.420 what's going to happen

00:38:18.000 at that point.

00:38:19.300 So

00:38:19.780 we've touched on this

00:38:21.700 and there's going to be

00:38:22.700 a lot of people

00:38:23.380 who are very interested

00:38:24.500 in this

00:38:24.880 who've never had this

00:38:26.000 have never even

00:38:26.940 contemplated this thought

00:38:28.260 and I'm one of them.

00:38:29.540 Why might Russia

00:38:30.900 implode

00:38:31.700 and what are the countries

00:38:33.320 who want to break free

00:38:34.780 of Russia?

00:38:37.580 Well I think that

00:38:38.280 just about every

00:38:39.300 non-Russian

00:38:40.180 republic

00:38:41.380 you know

00:38:42.500 would rather

00:38:43.100 you know

00:38:44.400 sort of

00:38:44.940 move away

00:38:45.700 at a distance

00:38:46.960 and even Armenia

00:38:48.340 which

00:38:50.120 often

00:38:50.980 acts as a

00:38:51.900 Russian proxy state

00:38:53.280 even Armenia

00:38:55.400 doesn't

00:38:56.400 hasn't got a love affair

00:38:57.700 with Moscow

00:38:58.580 by any means.

00:38:59.300 so

00:39:00.120 the way

00:39:01.220 that I see it

00:39:01.920 is that

00:39:02.420 the Russian

00:39:04.580 Federation

00:39:05.260 is held

00:39:06.800 together by

00:39:07.700 essentially

00:39:08.720 coercive

00:39:10.620 authoritarian means

00:39:12.220 rather than

00:39:12.800 through any kind

00:39:13.500 of consensus

00:39:14.120 and there are

00:39:15.460 very few

00:39:15.980 mechanisms

00:39:16.500 for consensus

00:39:17.440 to be

00:39:18.100 achieved

00:39:19.060 all done by

00:39:19.740 negotiations

00:39:20.500 and bullying

00:39:21.140 it's like

00:39:21.640 that kind of

00:39:22.080 combination

00:39:22.780 and what's

00:39:24.400 happened in

00:39:24.920 most recent

00:39:25.720 period

00:39:26.200 is that

00:39:27.400 Turkey and Iran

00:39:28.580 for very

00:39:29.220 different reasons

00:39:30.640 are using

00:39:31.900 its influence

00:39:32.740 to try to

00:39:33.480 seduce and

00:39:34.260 attract people

00:39:34.980 to move in

00:39:36.120 their direction

00:39:36.900 pretty much in

00:39:38.780 the way that

00:39:39.380 you know

00:39:40.180 sort of

00:39:40.620 we had a

00:39:41.380 comparable

00:39:41.900 situation in

00:39:42.680 Kosovo

00:39:43.200 and elsewhere

00:39:43.700 where you have

00:39:44.340 different Islamic

00:39:45.700 powers

00:39:46.220 trying to

00:39:47.520 sort of

00:39:48.180 gain a degree

00:39:48.720 of influence

00:39:49.700 if not

00:39:50.100 hegemony

00:39:50.580 in that

00:39:51.040 part of

00:39:51.340 the world

00:39:51.740 so yeah

00:39:53.240 I've got

00:39:53.740 this very

00:39:54.040 bad feeling

00:39:54.800 that if

00:39:56.280 you have

00:39:56.620 something like

00:39:57.380 the

00:39:57.820 Balkan War

00:40:00.760 you know

00:40:01.320 Mark II

00:40:01.920 but this

00:40:02.500 time

00:40:02.780 within the

00:40:03.620 Russian

00:40:03.820 Federation

00:40:04.400 the

00:40:05.780 consequences

00:40:06.480 of that

00:40:06.820 will be

00:40:07.180 much more

00:40:07.900 drastic

00:40:09.360 dramatic

00:40:09.840 than what

00:40:10.380 happened

00:40:10.720 in the

00:40:12.080 old

00:40:12.280 Yugoslavia

00:40:12.940 And what

00:40:14.340 might those

00:40:14.820 consequences

00:40:15.460 be

00:40:15.900 geopolitically

00:40:17.240 Frank?

00:40:18.920 Well

00:40:19.520 I think

00:40:19.920 that

00:40:20.240 the way

00:40:21.600 that

00:40:21.760 I mean

00:40:22.480 one of

00:40:22.760 the things

00:40:23.040 I worry

00:40:23.380 about

00:40:23.560 is that

00:40:23.840 I will

00:40:24.100 put

00:40:24.300 Iran

00:40:24.640 in a

00:40:24.900 much

00:40:25.060 stronger

00:40:25.360 position

00:40:25.860 because

00:40:27.180 you know

00:40:27.700 Iran's 0.89

00:40:28.300 already been

00:40:28.800 made

00:40:29.200 an honorary

00:40:30.340 member

00:40:30.760 of this

00:40:31.420 club

00:40:32.340 that

00:40:32.700 China

00:40:33.240 and Russia

00:40:34.700 inhabits

00:40:35.240 so there's

00:40:35.860 this kind

00:40:36.100 of new

00:40:36.520 triangle

00:40:37.700 relationship

00:40:38.480 that's been

00:40:38.940 established

00:40:39.400 I don't

00:40:40.640 think that

00:40:40.900 would be

00:40:41.140 a very

00:40:41.420 good

00:40:41.580 result

00:40:41.980 if

00:40:42.440 Iran

00:40:42.920 strengthens

00:40:43.640 its

00:40:43.960 kind

00:40:44.520 of

00:40:44.640 position

00:40:45.000 and

00:40:45.320 stabilizes

00:40:46.560 itself

00:40:46.880 precisely

00:40:47.360 within Iran

00:40:48.680 things are

00:40:49.340 going awry

00:40:50.560 I think

00:40:51.620 that Turkey 0.57

00:40:52.120 is very

00:40:52.460 interesting

00:40:52.840 in this

00:40:53.220 respect

00:40:53.540 because

00:40:53.900 Turkey

00:40:54.320 is on

00:40:55.440 a roll

00:40:55.800 at the

00:40:56.120 moment

00:40:56.420 because

00:40:56.960 it's

00:40:57.580 needed

00:40:57.860 by

00:40:58.100 NATO

00:40:58.560 the NATO

00:40:59.920 really

00:41:00.200 relies on

00:41:00.800 Turkey

00:41:01.100 as this

00:41:01.500 intermediary

00:41:02.480 but at

00:41:03.960 the same

00:41:04.300 time

00:41:04.540 Turkey

00:41:04.820 has got

00:41:05.060 very

00:41:05.300 clear

00:41:05.780 distinct

00:41:06.460 interests

00:41:07.040 which

00:41:08.240 fundamentally

00:41:08.920 contradict

00:41:09.520 that of

00:41:10.260 Europe

00:41:10.660 and

00:41:11.220 European

00:41:12.520 powers

00:41:13.020 so

00:41:13.340 that's

00:41:14.140 what I

00:41:14.360 meant

00:41:14.540 earlier

00:41:14.860 on

00:41:15.040 when

00:41:15.140 we

00:41:15.260 talked

00:41:15.480 about

00:41:15.840 a

00:41:16.480 situation

00:41:16.900 not

00:41:17.180 unlike

00:41:17.560 before

00:41:17.920 First World

00:41:18.540 War

00:41:18.860 where we

00:41:19.720 simply

00:41:20.520 don't

00:41:20.820 know

00:41:21.000 who's

00:41:21.240 going

00:41:21.380 to

00:41:21.480 line

00:41:21.700 up

00:41:21.860 with

00:41:22.000 who

00:41:22.280 under

00:41:23.160 those

00:41:23.400 circumstances

00:41:24.080 and

00:41:26.080 I

00:41:26.680 suppose

00:41:26.940 the

00:41:27.120 question

00:41:27.500 because

00:41:28.100 I

00:41:28.280 remember

00:41:28.540 when

00:41:28.800 the

00:41:29.080 war

00:41:29.400 in

00:41:29.560 Ukraine

00:41:29.880 first

00:41:30.260 when

00:41:31.000 Russia

00:41:31.560 first

00:41:31.940 invaded

00:41:32.340 Ukraine

00:41:32.860 when

00:41:33.640 that

00:41:33.900 conflict

00:41:34.300 began

00:41:34.800 there

00:41:35.600 were

00:41:35.740 a lot

00:41:35.960 of

00:41:36.100 very

00:41:36.500 I

00:41:37.640 hope

00:41:37.960 they'll

00:41:38.140 forgive

00:41:38.380 me

00:41:38.540 for

00:41:38.680 saying

00:41:38.820 it's

00:41:38.940 very

00:41:39.100 naive

00:41:39.460 people

00:41:39.800 in

00:41:43.020 Putin

00:41:43.460 that's

00:41:44.040 what

00:41:44.180 we

00:41:44.360 need

00:41:44.520 to

00:41:44.660 do

00:41:44.940 and

00:41:45.220 they

00:41:45.660 thought

00:41:45.980 that

00:41:46.180 would

00:41:47.900 help

00:41:48.600 and

00:41:49.940 I

00:41:50.120 was

00:41:50.380 saying

00:41:50.800 to

00:41:50.960 them

00:41:51.100 you

00:41:51.320 do

00:41:51.480 realize

00:41:51.960 you

00:41:52.880 get

00:41:53.100 rid

00:41:53.240 of

00:41:53.320 Putin

00:41:53.440 it's

00:41:53.540 probably

00:41:53.720 not

00:41:53.860 going

00:41:53.960 to be

00:41:54.100 Nick

00:41:54.320 Clegg

00:41:54.600 that

00:41:54.780 comes

00:41:54.980 to

00:41:55.120 power

00:41:55.340 in

00:41:55.520 Russia

00:41:55.800 do

00:41:56.080 know

00:41:56.180 what

00:41:56.280 I

00:41:56.320 mean

00:41:56.520 so

00:41:57.960 either

00:41:58.220 you're

00:41:58.560 going

00:41:58.680 to

00:41:58.760 get

00:41:58.960 another

00:41:59.320 strong

00:41:59.740 man

00:42:00.040 leader

00:42:00.460 who's

00:42:00.840 going

00:42:01.000 to

00:42:01.100 need

00:42:01.260 to

00:42:01.440 assert

00:42:01.760 himself

00:42:02.200 even

00:42:02.720 more

00:42:03.000 to

00:42:03.180 prove

00:42:03.440 himself

00:42:03.780 because

00:42:04.020 he's

00:42:04.200 not

00:42:04.360 Putin

00:42:04.660 he

00:42:04.840 hasn't

00:42:05.040 proven

00:42:05.280 himself

00:42:05.660 or

00:42:06.600 there's

00:42:07.100 the other

00:42:07.360 scenario

00:42:07.780 which

00:42:08.060 you're

00:42:08.520 alluding

00:42:09.420 to

00:42:09.740 which

00:42:10.460 is

00:42:10.720 he's

00:42:10.940 not

00:42:11.160 strong

00:42:11.500 enough

00:42:11.800 to

00:42:12.040 hold

00:42:12.340 the

00:42:12.860 federation

00:42:13.340 it's

00:42:13.480 really

00:42:13.660 an

00:42:13.800 empire

00:42:14.140 what

00:42:14.420 Russia

00:42:14.760 is

00:42:15.020 today

00:42:15.320 the

00:42:15.600 Russian

00:42:15.940 empire

00:42:16.360 together

00:42:16.800 and

00:42:18.400 then

00:42:18.560 you

00:42:18.720 get

00:42:18.880 the

00:42:19.040 disintegration

00:42:19.860 of

00:42:20.420 this

00:42:20.580 country

00:42:20.880 which

00:42:21.180 has

00:42:21.460 an

00:42:21.800 awful

00:42:21.980 lot

00:42:22.220 of

00:42:22.320 nuclear

00:42:22.560 weapons

00:42:22.960 you're

00:42:24.520 right

00:42:24.760 and I

00:42:25.420 think

00:42:25.640 what

00:42:25.800 the

00:42:26.000 tragedy

00:42:26.400 is

00:42:26.860 and

00:42:27.440 this

00:42:27.600 goes

00:42:27.760 back

00:42:27.960 to

00:42:28.080 the

00:42:28.180 point

00:42:28.360 about

00:42:28.600 geopolitical

00:42:29.320 illiteracy

00:42:30.120 is

00:42:30.960 a lot

00:42:31.180 of

00:42:31.280 people

00:42:31.420 have

00:42:31.580 a

00:42:31.720 psychological

00:42:32.300 interpretation

00:42:33.180 of the

00:42:33.520 war

00:42:33.720 that

00:42:34.000 Putin

00:42:34.920 is

00:42:35.100 just

00:42:35.260 a 0.99

00:42:35.400 mad 1.00

00:42:35.600 person 0.92

00:42:36.100 and

00:42:36.940 if

00:42:37.100 you

00:42:37.220 remove

00:42:37.460 that

00:42:37.680 kind

00:42:37.920 of

00:42:38.120 cancerous

00:42:38.840 growth

00:42:39.240 on

00:42:40.200 Russian

00:42:40.700 society

00:42:41.300 then

00:42:41.560 it

00:42:41.700 would

00:42:41.780 be

00:42:41.860 really

00:42:42.080 cool

00:42:42.420 not

00:42:42.980 realizing

00:42:43.500 that

00:42:44.040 you

00:42:45.580 can't

00:42:46.100 blame

00:42:46.320 the

00:42:46.500 war

00:42:46.720 on

00:42:46.860 this

00:42:47.060 single

00:42:47.600 individual

00:42:48.100 there's

00:42:48.460 a

00:42:48.540 whole

00:42:48.720 system

00:42:49.180 at

00:42:49.480 play

00:42:49.680 there

00:42:49.980 a

00:42:50.660 lot

00:42:50.880 of

00:42:51.140 interest

00:42:51.920 that

00:42:52.220 are

00:42:52.420 work

00:42:52.780 and

00:42:52.940 if

00:42:53.200 Putin

00:42:54.000 is

00:42:54.260 taken

00:42:54.600 out

00:42:55.020 then

00:42:56.180 somebody

00:42:56.940 else

00:42:57.220 will

00:42:57.380 replace

00:42:57.840 him

00:42:58.120 who

00:42:58.840 might

00:42:59.280 smile

00:43:00.620 a little

00:43:00.800 bit more

00:43:01.100 than

00:43:01.280 Putin

00:43:01.560 does

00:43:01.920 but

00:43:02.500 essentially

00:43:03.060 things

00:43:03.740 will

00:43:03.980 pretty

00:43:04.360 much

00:43:04.540 remain

00:43:04.740 the

00:43:04.980 same

00:43:05.260 and

00:43:05.520 I

00:43:05.780 do

00:43:05.920 think

00:43:06.100 this

00:43:06.300 naivety

00:43:06.860 is

00:43:07.800 very

00:43:08.060 unhelpful

00:43:08.920 this

00:43:09.140 single

00:43:09.620 minded

00:43:09.880 focus

00:43:10.900 on

00:43:12.060 an

00:43:12.360 individual

00:43:12.800 or a

00:43:13.140 small

00:43:13.400 number

00:43:13.680 of

00:43:13.840 individuals

00:43:14.380 rather

00:43:14.820 than

00:43:15.000 the

00:43:15.120 fact

00:43:15.280 that

00:43:15.400 there's

00:43:15.540 a

00:43:15.660 whole

00:43:16.060 system

00:43:17.580 imperial

00:43:18.760 system

00:43:19.340 that's

00:43:19.940 running

00:43:20.160 that

00:43:20.360 society

00:43:20.860 that

00:43:21.080 has

00:43:21.680 got

00:43:21.880 a

00:43:22.000 common

00:43:22.240 interest

00:43:22.780 in

00:43:23.480 maintaining

00:43:23.860 the

00:43:24.120 status

00:43:24.400 quo

00:43:24.720 so

00:43:25.200 that

00:43:25.400 being

00:43:25.640 the

00:43:25.840 case

00:43:26.120 then

00:43:27.840 Ukraine

00:43:28.160 should

00:43:29.340 be

00:43:29.600 given

00:43:29.920 the

00:43:30.100 support

00:43:30.420 of

00:43:30.540 needs

00:43:30.760 to

00:43:30.960 remain

00:43:31.240 independent

00:43:31.780 and

00:43:32.340 hopefully

00:43:32.720 things

00:43:33.040 calm

00:43:33.320 down

00:43:33.600 over

00:43:33.820 time

00:43:34.200 even

00:43:34.680 though

00:43:34.940 they're

00:43:35.260 very

00:43:36.060 strong

00:43:36.460 pre-existing

00:43:37.360 interests

00:43:37.880 from both

00:43:38.360 sides

00:43:38.660 that are

00:43:38.940 in

00:43:39.040 conflict

00:43:39.380 what

00:43:40.580 should

00:43:40.800 the

00:43:40.960 West

00:43:41.160 do

00:43:41.500 what

00:43:42.240 should

00:43:42.440 we

00:43:42.640 do

00:43:42.840 in

00:43:42.960 this

00:43:43.120 country

00:43:43.380 what

00:43:43.600 should

00:43:43.760 the

00:43:43.900 Americans

00:43:44.240 do

00:43:44.580 what

00:43:44.820 should

00:43:45.000 Europe

00:43:45.300 do

00:43:45.640 in

00:43:46.880 order

00:43:47.140 to

00:43:47.780 manage

00:43:49.460 this

00:43:49.800 crisis

00:43:50.320 which

00:43:50.700 is

00:43:50.900 from

00:43:51.300 what

00:43:51.480 you're

00:43:51.720 saying

00:43:52.000 it's

00:43:52.160 really

00:43:52.340 a

00:43:52.480 global

00:43:52.820 crisis

00:43:53.300 what's

00:43:53.980 happening

00:43:54.280 here

00:43:54.600 what

00:43:55.340 should

00:43:55.560 the

00:43:55.700 West

00:43:55.880 do

00:43:56.260 to

00:43:57.020 mitigate

00:43:57.480 some

00:43:57.860 of

00:43:57.960 the

00:43:58.060 consequences

00:43:58.640 of

00:43:58.940 what's

00:43:59.180 happening

00:43:59.480 well

00:44:01.020 in

00:44:01.240 the

00:44:01.400 end

00:44:01.620 it

00:44:01.800 doesn't

00:44:02.180 it's

00:44:02.680 not

00:44:02.820 in

00:44:02.920 the

00:44:03.000 hand

00:44:03.220 of

00:44:03.340 the

00:44:03.460 West

00:44:03.760 entirely

00:44:04.560 in

00:44:05.000 the

00:44:05.120 beginning

00:44:05.340 of

00:44:05.520 the

00:44:05.540 war

00:44:05.740 I

00:44:05.880 got

00:44:06.000 a lot

00:44:06.220 of

00:44:06.340 criticism

00:44:06.840 because

00:44:08.080 I

00:44:08.340 argued

00:44:08.840 for

00:44:09.080 example

00:44:09.540 that

00:44:10.000 we

00:44:11.180 should

00:44:11.560 basically

00:44:12.700 tell

00:44:13.020 Russia

00:44:13.460 to

00:44:14.580 neutralize

00:44:16.020 the

00:44:16.200 airspace

00:44:16.800 so

00:44:17.040 that

00:44:17.200 basically

00:44:17.680 Russia

00:44:18.500 couldn't

00:44:18.800 control

00:44:19.280 the

00:44:19.500 air

00:44:19.800 unilaterally

00:44:21.180 and

00:44:21.380 indicate

00:44:21.740 that

00:44:21.920 the

00:44:22.060 West

00:44:22.280 would

00:44:22.440 be

00:44:26.740 sending

00:44:27.520 in

00:44:27.760 airplanes

00:44:28.260 with

00:44:28.620 military

00:44:29.660 supplies

00:44:30.380 if

00:44:31.480 not

00:44:31.700 in

00:44:31.800 the

00:44:31.900 whole

00:44:32.080 Ukraine

00:44:32.340 at

00:44:32.540 least

00:44:32.760 draw

00:44:33.040 lines

00:44:33.520 so

00:44:33.760 that

00:44:34.040 west

00:44:35.220 of

00:44:35.440 Kiev

00:44:35.700 you

00:44:36.200 would

00:44:36.340 have

00:44:36.700 a

00:44:38.440 no-go

00:44:40.540 area

00:44:41.100 where

00:44:41.400 this

00:44:41.720 could

00:44:41.880 be

00:44:42.080 done

00:44:42.440 I

00:44:43.200 got

00:44:43.320 a lot

00:44:43.520 of

00:44:43.620 criticism

00:44:43.940 for

00:44:44.180 saying

00:44:44.400 that

00:44:44.560 I'm

00:44:44.700 just

00:44:44.880 escalating

00:44:45.440 the

00:44:45.620 war

00:44:45.880 and

00:44:46.040 it

00:44:46.160 will

00:44:46.260 make

00:44:46.520 things

00:44:46.800 a little

00:44:46.980 bit

00:44:47.100 more

00:44:47.460 difficult

00:44:48.500 people

00:44:50.600 would

00:44:50.820 have

00:44:50.920 said

00:44:51.120 you

00:44:51.240 started

00:44:51.480 World

00:44:51.780 War

00:44:51.960 3

00:44:52.180 a little

00:44:53.840 bit

00:44:54.000 more

00:44:54.160 difficult

00:44:54.540 you

00:44:55.540 see

00:44:55.760 Frank

00:44:56.060 is

00:44:56.260 so

00:44:56.480 British

00:44:56.880 now

00:44:57.200 that's

00:44:57.600 his

00:44:58.040 definition

00:44:58.560 the

00:44:59.380 end

00:45:00.640 of

00:45:00.800 the

00:45:00.960 world

00:45:01.320 is

00:45:01.680 a

00:45:01.820 little

00:45:02.000 bit

00:45:02.180 more

00:45:02.360 difficult

00:45:02.620 I've

00:45:03.320 kind

00:45:03.540 of

00:45:03.640 learned

00:45:03.920 the

00:45:04.120 English

00:45:04.500 understatement

00:45:05.120 do you

00:45:07.480 have a

00:45:07.820 website

00:45:08.140 or do

00:45:08.800 you

00:45:08.940 plan

00:45:09.260 to

00:45:09.440 have

00:45:09.660 a

00:45:09.780 website

00:45:10.240 because

00:45:10.820 if

00:45:11.060 you

00:45:11.260 do

00:45:11.600 then

00:45:12.100 Easy

00:45:12.600 DNS

00:45:12.980 is

00:45:13.500 a

00:45:13.720 company

00:45:14.080 for

00:45:14.400 you

00:45:14.680 Easy

00:45:15.240 DNS

00:45:15.580 is

00:45:16.000 the

00:45:16.180 perfect

00:45:16.540 domain

00:45:16.940 name

00:45:17.300 registrar

00:45:17.840 provider

00:45:18.280 and

00:45:18.560 web

00:45:18.800 host

00:45:19.020 for

00:45:19.180 you

00:45:19.420 they

00:45:20.020 have

00:45:20.180 a

00:45:22.180 clients

00:45:22.460 whether

00:45:22.680 it

00:45:22.820 be

00:45:22.940 cancel

00:45:23.380 culture

00:45:23.880 de-platform

00:45:25.020 attacks

00:45:25.480 or

00:45:26.040 overzealous

00:45:26.940 government

00:45:27.440 agencies

00:45:28.140 he knows

00:45:29.280 about

00:45:29.560 that

00:45:29.900 so

00:45:30.460 will

00:45:30.620 you

00:45:30.780 in a

00:45:31.020 second

00:45:31.380 Easy

00:45:32.160 DNS

00:45:32.500 have

00:45:32.900 rock

00:45:33.240 solid

00:45:33.560 network

00:45:34.020 infrastructure

00:45:34.520 and

00:45:34.980 fantastic

00:45:35.560 customer

00:45:36.100 support

00:45:36.660 they're

00:45:37.200 in

00:45:37.380 your

00:45:37.680 corner

00:45:38.120 no

00:45:38.560 matter

00:45:38.800 what

00:45:39.220 the

00:45:39.400 world

00:45:39.660 throws

00:45:40.060 at

00:45:40.220 you

00:45:40.420 unless

00:45:40.980 it's

00:45:41.320 your

00:45:41.460 ex

00:45:41.660 girlfriend

00:45:42.000 in

00:45:42.520 which

00:45:42.720 case

00:45:43.060 you're

00:45:43.520 on

00:45:43.640 your

00:45:43.820 own

00:45:44.000 you

00:45:44.240 know

00:45:44.440 about

00:45:44.800 that

00:45:45.100 move

00:45:46.000 your

00:45:46.180 domains

00:45:46.640 and

00:45:46.840 websites

00:45:47.280 over

00:45:47.640 to

00:45:47.880 Easy

00:45:48.200 DNS

00:45:48.520 right

00:45:48.980 now

00:45:49.260 all

00:45:49.840 you've

00:45:50.060 got

00:45:50.220 to

00:45:50.380 do

00:45:50.560 is

00:45:50.700 go

00:45:50.840 to

00:45:51.080 easy

00:45:51.360 DNS

00:45:51.760 dot

00:45:52.160 com

00:45:52.460 forward

00:45:52.960 slash

00:45:53.240 triggered

00:45:53.600 that's

00:45:54.120 easy

00:45:54.400 DNS

00:45:54.800 dot

00:45:55.180 com

00:45:55.520 forward

00:45:56.040 slash

00:45:56.360 triggered

00:45:56.680 use

00:45:57.160 our

00:45:57.340 promo

00:45:57.620 code

00:45:57.960 which

00:45:58.200 is

00:45:58.340 also

00:45:58.580 triggered

00:45:58.940 and

00:45:59.380 get

00:45:59.560 50%

00:46:00.200 off

00:46:00.500 the

00:46:00.720 initial

00:46:01.040 purchase

00:46:01.580 sign up

00:46:02.240 for their

00:46:02.540 newsletter

00:46:03.140 access

00:46:03.780 of

00:46:04.080 easy

00:46:04.340 which

00:46:04.840 tells

00:46:05.120 you

00:46:05.280 everything

00:46:05.720 you

00:46:05.980 need

00:46:06.220 to

00:46:06.360 know

00:46:06.560 about

00:46:07.100 technology

00:46:07.820 privacy

00:46:08.540 and

00:46:09.140 censorship

00:46:09.700 so

00:46:11.380 I

00:46:11.640 was

00:46:11.800 accused

00:46:12.100 of

00:46:12.280 being

00:46:12.480 a

00:46:12.780 warmonger

00:46:13.400 and

00:46:13.700 the

00:46:14.800 point

00:46:15.600 that

00:46:15.760 I

00:46:15.880 made

00:46:16.220 was

00:46:16.460 that

00:46:16.720 if

00:46:16.920 you

00:46:17.220 basically

00:46:18.040 argue

00:46:18.460 that

00:46:18.660 every

00:46:18.860 time

00:46:19.180 you

00:46:19.520 help

00:46:19.840 Ukraine

00:46:20.300 it

00:46:21.260 kind

00:46:21.500 of

00:46:21.700 creates

00:46:22.360 the

00:46:22.540 risk

00:46:22.820 of

00:46:22.940 a

00:46:23.060 nuclear

00:46:23.340 war

00:46:23.740 then

00:46:24.400 you

00:46:24.500 might

00:46:24.640 as

00:46:24.720 well

00:46:24.820 give

00:46:24.980 up

00:46:25.200 because

00:46:25.520 what

00:46:25.720 he's

00:46:25.880 saying

00:46:26.220 that

00:46:26.560 Russia's 0.70

00:46:28.040 nuclear

00:46:28.580 blackmail

00:46:29.160 is going

00:46:29.520 to have

00:46:29.780 the last

00:46:30.240 word

00:46:30.480 on

00:46:30.620 everything

00:46:31.000 and

00:46:32.080 I

00:46:32.180 still

00:46:32.380 think

00:46:32.660 that

00:46:32.960 but

00:46:33.700 now

00:46:34.160 that

00:46:34.340 the

00:46:34.440 war

00:46:34.620 has

00:46:34.740 gone

00:46:34.880 on

00:46:35.040 for

00:46:35.200 so

00:46:35.460 long

00:46:35.840 what

00:46:36.920 I'm

00:46:37.060 really

00:46:37.220 worried

00:46:37.500 about

00:46:37.840 is

00:46:38.660 that

00:46:38.980 the

00:46:39.760 nature

00:46:40.120 of

00:46:40.280 the

00:46:40.400 war

00:46:40.560 has

00:46:40.760 changed

00:46:41.100 quite

00:46:41.380 dramatically

00:46:41.900 and

00:46:43.040 somehow

00:46:43.560 or

00:46:44.000 another

00:46:44.580 you

00:46:45.360 know

00:46:45.480 sort

00:46:45.740 of

00:46:46.000 we

00:46:46.360 need

00:46:46.560 to

00:46:46.720 kind

00:46:46.900 of

00:46:47.040 take

00:46:47.820 a

00:46:47.980 step

00:46:48.200 back

00:46:48.480 and

00:46:48.660 find

00:46:49.100 how

00:46:50.140 we

00:46:50.440 can

00:46:50.780 limit

00:46:51.360 the

00:46:51.640 damage

00:46:52.160 that's

00:46:52.600 being

00:46:52.820 created

00:46:53.280 within

00:46:54.360 Ukraine

00:46:54.720 itself

00:46:55.200 I

00:46:55.480 do

00:46:55.820 worry

00:46:56.120 about

00:46:56.500 the

00:46:57.380 consequences

00:46:57.980 of

00:46:58.160 this

00:46:58.280 for

00:46:58.460 Ukrainian

00:46:58.840 society

00:46:59.480 in the

00:46:59.900 long

00:47:00.100 run

00:47:00.320 because

00:47:01.100 they

00:47:01.280 need

00:47:01.460 a

00:47:01.580 bit

00:47:01.680 of

00:47:01.820 breathing

00:47:02.160 space

00:47:02.620 and

00:47:02.800 stability

00:47:05.200 and

00:47:05.480 get

00:47:05.760 their

00:47:05.960 act

00:47:06.180 together

00:47:06.580 so

00:47:07.560 that

00:47:08.140 seems

00:47:08.700 to me

00:47:08.980 to be

00:47:09.380 the

00:47:09.660 key

00:47:09.880 thing

00:47:10.140 I

00:47:10.240 think

00:47:10.360 the

00:47:10.680 West

00:47:11.040 people

00:47:12.640 in the

00:47:12.900 West

00:47:13.160 should

00:47:13.620 be

00:47:14.120 fighting

00:47:14.600 for

00:47:15.000 the

00:47:16.320 creation

00:47:16.660 of

00:47:17.020 I

00:47:17.440 suppose

00:47:17.840 lack

00:47:18.300 of a

00:47:18.500 better

00:47:18.640 expression

00:47:18.960 a red

00:47:19.360 line

00:47:19.740 that

00:47:20.680 Russia

00:47:21.040 knows

00:47:21.960 that

00:47:23.000 they

00:47:23.360 must

00:47:23.600 not

00:47:23.840 cross

00:47:24.320 as

00:47:25.640 a way

00:47:25.960 of

00:47:26.120 indicating

00:47:26.640 that

00:47:26.960 Russia

00:47:27.560 knows

00:47:27.940 that

00:47:28.100 if

00:47:28.200 they

00:47:28.280 cross

00:47:28.500 the

00:47:28.620 red

00:47:28.780 line

00:47:29.120 there

00:47:29.980 will

00:47:30.080 be

00:47:30.240 external

00:47:31.000 intervention

00:47:31.940 but

00:47:32.720 within

00:47:33.000 that

00:47:33.260 it's

00:47:33.600 going

00:47:33.720 to be

00:47:33.900 resolved

00:47:34.300 by

00:47:35.200 people

00:47:35.540 themselves

00:47:36.100 with

00:47:36.440 our

00:47:36.960 support

00:47:37.460 I

00:47:38.320 don't

00:47:38.480 want to

00:47:38.680 lecture

00:47:38.940 the

00:47:39.120 Ukrainians

00:47:39.600 telling

00:47:39.920 them

00:47:40.080 what

00:47:40.220 to

00:47:40.360 do

00:47:40.520 that

00:47:40.660 no

00:47:40.860 no

00:47:41.020 no

00:47:41.100 of

00:47:41.400 course

00:47:41.620 but

00:47:42.660 I

00:47:42.800 was

00:47:42.940 asking

00:47:43.220 about

00:47:43.480 the

00:47:43.640 West

00:47:43.860 because

00:47:44.160 the

00:47:44.380 West

00:47:44.600 is

00:47:44.940 the

00:47:45.200 deciding

00:47:45.620 factor

00:47:46.000 I

00:47:46.220 would

00:47:46.400 argue

00:47:46.700 Frank

00:47:47.020 because

00:47:47.500 if

00:47:48.140 the

00:47:48.260 West

00:47:48.440 doesn't

00:47:48.720 help

00:47:48.920 Ukraine

00:47:49.240 Ukraine

00:47:49.480 will

00:47:49.740 collapse

00:47:50.120 in a

00:47:50.500 day

00:47:50.760 and

00:47:51.520 if

00:47:51.660 the

00:47:51.800 West

00:47:52.100 wanted

00:47:52.520 to

00:47:52.800 for

00:47:53.280 Ukraine

00:47:53.620 to

00:47:53.800 win

00:47:53.980 you

00:47:54.140 say

00:47:54.340 Ukraine

00:47:54.700 can't

00:47:54.940 win

00:47:55.020 actually

00:47:55.260 Ukraine

00:47:55.580 could

00:47:55.840 win

00:47:56.100 if

00:48:05.200 we

00:48:06.100 talked

00:48:06.460 very

00:48:06.840 early

00:48:07.160 on

00:48:07.360 in

00:48:07.500 the

00:48:07.620 conversation

00:48:08.100 you

00:48:08.380 mentioned

00:48:08.840 that

00:48:09.180 Ukraine

00:48:09.660 never

00:48:09.940 really

00:48:10.160 had

00:48:10.400 a

00:48:10.700 strong

00:48:11.140 national

00:48:12.180 identity

00:48:12.740 there

00:48:12.980 was

00:48:13.100 a

00:48:13.200 strong

00:48:13.380 ethnic

00:48:13.760 identity

00:48:14.380 but

00:48:14.960 not

00:48:15.140 a

00:48:15.320 national

00:48:15.720 identity

00:48:16.300 I'd

00:48:17.120 argue

00:48:17.460 we're

00:48:18.840 starting

00:48:19.120 to see

00:48:19.640 the

00:48:20.380 formation

00:48:20.820 of a

00:48:21.320 very

00:48:21.520 strong

00:48:21.880 national

00:48:22.300 Ukrainian

00:48:22.760 identity

00:48:23.400 so

00:48:24.180 while

00:48:24.600 of course

00:48:25.000 they're

00:48:25.180 taking

00:48:25.460 losses

00:48:26.020 and

00:48:26.360 economies

00:48:26.880 being

00:48:27.200 damaged

00:48:27.620 and

00:48:27.860 the

00:48:28.020 industrial

00:48:28.520 heartlands

00:48:30.700 are also

00:48:31.100 to some

00:48:31.860 extent

00:48:32.100 being

00:48:32.360 affected

00:48:32.680 by the

00:48:33.100 war

00:48:33.320 this

00:48:34.420 could

00:48:34.900 be

00:48:35.300 the

00:48:35.520 beginning

00:48:35.860 of

00:48:36.120 the

00:48:36.560 emergence

00:48:36.940 of

00:48:37.220 an

00:48:37.540 actual

00:48:37.920 country

00:48:38.320 called

00:48:38.620 Ukraine

00:48:38.980 which

00:48:40.540 if it

00:48:41.040 is

00:48:41.240 given

00:48:41.560 the

00:48:41.800 support

00:48:42.160 it

00:48:42.320 needs

00:48:42.640 to be

00:48:43.320 part

00:48:43.640 of

00:48:43.780 the

00:48:43.980 EU

00:48:44.460 or

00:48:44.940 to be

00:48:45.340 some

00:48:45.580 sort

00:48:45.880 of

00:48:46.040 NATO

00:48:46.440 ally

00:48:47.020 or

00:48:47.260 something

00:48:47.560 like

00:48:47.840 that

00:48:48.120 it

00:48:48.600 could

00:48:48.840 be

00:48:49.060 just

00:48:49.400 a

00:48:50.120 normal

00:48:50.400 country

00:48:50.800 eventually

00:48:51.280 couldn't

00:48:51.580 it

00:48:51.760 well

00:48:52.700 I have

00:48:52.960 big

00:48:53.140 hopes

00:48:53.460 for

00:48:53.660 Ukraine

00:48:54.060 becoming

00:48:55.100 a

00:48:55.280 normal

00:48:55.480 country

00:48:55.940 and

00:48:56.760 you're

00:48:56.920 right

00:48:57.140 to

00:48:57.280 suggest

00:48:57.680 that

00:48:58.040 as a

00:48:58.480 result

00:48:58.740 of

00:48:58.900 this

00:48:59.060 experience

00:48:59.700 there's

00:49:00.740 an

00:49:00.860 unusual

00:49:01.260 degree

00:49:01.660 of

00:49:02.000 domestic

00:49:02.640 solidarity

00:49:03.260 within

00:49:03.860 Ukraine

00:49:04.440 and

00:49:04.640 there's

00:49:04.820 a

00:49:04.900 kind

00:49:05.100 of

00:49:05.840 even

00:49:06.040 a

00:49:06.240 certain

00:49:06.480 cultural

00:49:07.060 renaissance

00:49:07.580 that is

00:49:08.180 occurring

00:49:08.600 that you

00:49:09.020 can see

00:49:09.660 which is

00:49:10.020 really

00:49:10.300 very nice

00:49:11.760 to see

00:49:12.340 and by

00:49:12.820 the way

00:49:13.060 just

00:49:13.340 sorry to

00:49:13.760 interrupt

00:49:14.060 there is

00:49:14.500 a

00:49:14.740 mending

00:49:15.380 of the

00:49:15.820 thing

00:49:16.040 that was

00:49:16.360 always

00:49:16.620 at the

00:49:16.900 heart

00:49:17.100 of

00:49:17.220 Ukrainian

00:49:17.600 society

00:49:18.140 which

00:49:18.500 is

00:49:18.720 Western

00:49:19.400 Ukraine

00:49:19.920 and

00:49:20.520 Eastern

00:49:20.820 Ukraine

00:49:21.320 the

00:49:21.840 Russian

00:49:22.140 speakers

00:49:22.620 and

00:49:23.060 the

00:49:23.400 Ukrainian

00:49:23.780 speakers

00:49:24.320 the

00:49:24.880 people like

00:49:25.600 to

00:49:25.780 exaggerate

00:49:26.420 the

00:49:26.580 differences

00:49:26.940 between

00:49:27.320 the

00:49:27.480 two

00:49:27.620 they're

00:49:27.780 not

00:49:27.940 as

00:49:28.080 big

00:49:28.260 as

00:49:28.400 people

00:49:28.840 like

00:49:29.060 to

00:49:29.220 believe

00:49:29.520 but

00:49:29.940 nonetheless

00:49:30.340 that

00:49:31.300 doesn't

00:49:32.760 exist

00:49:33.100 anymore

00:49:33.500 in

00:49:33.740 anything

00:49:34.020 like

00:49:34.280 the

00:49:34.400 way

00:49:34.540 that

00:49:34.660 it

00:49:34.780 did

00:49:34.920 right

00:49:35.100 it

00:49:35.440 still

00:49:35.680 exists

00:49:35.940 but

00:49:36.120 as

00:49:36.420 you

00:49:36.540 say

00:49:36.720 not

00:49:36.900 in

00:49:37.020 the

00:49:37.120 way

00:49:37.240 that

00:49:37.440 it

00:49:37.580 did

00:49:37.740 and

00:49:38.160 there's

00:49:38.420 been

00:49:38.580 a

00:49:38.860 kind

00:49:39.460 of

00:49:39.560 coming

00:49:39.820 together

00:49:40.380 as a

00:49:41.660 result

00:49:41.960 of this

00:49:42.880 common

00:49:43.120 experience

00:49:43.840 so I

00:49:44.600 think

00:49:44.680 all

00:49:44.940 that

00:49:45.100 is

00:49:45.260 true

00:49:45.520 where

00:49:45.860 I

00:49:46.040 slightly

00:49:46.560 disagree

00:49:47.560 with

00:49:47.880 you

00:49:48.000 is

00:49:49.160 I

00:49:49.420 don't

00:49:49.620 think

00:49:49.820 that

00:49:50.080 the

00:49:50.300 West

00:49:50.560 can

00:49:50.800 win

00:49:51.020 the

00:49:51.160 war

00:49:57.940 if

00:49:58.660 it

00:49:58.800 goes

00:49:59.060 beyond

00:49:59.300 a

00:49:59.460 certain

00:49:59.660 point

00:50:00.180 then

00:50:01.060 we

00:50:01.220 are

00:50:01.440 talking

00:50:01.820 about

00:50:02.240 such

00:50:02.780 an

00:50:02.900 escalation

00:50:03.620 that

00:50:05.200 the

00:50:05.880 West

00:50:06.180 would

00:50:06.460 find

00:50:06.720 unthinkable

00:50:07.360 I

00:50:07.560 think

00:50:07.780 the

00:50:07.940 West

00:50:08.240 is

00:50:09.020 not

00:50:09.240 known

00:50:09.500 for

00:50:09.700 its

00:50:09.900 courage

00:50:10.280 and

00:50:10.500 its

00:50:10.660 bravery

00:50:11.020 and

00:50:11.340 its

00:50:11.580 spirit

00:50:12.020 of

00:50:12.200 sacrifice

00:50:12.900 and

00:50:13.860 I

00:50:13.980 cannot

00:50:14.180 see

00:50:14.580 the

00:50:16.320 West

00:50:16.600 doing

00:50:17.380 very

00:50:17.600 much

00:50:17.860 more

00:50:18.180 my

00:50:18.660 objective

00:50:20.240 as far

00:50:21.540 as the

00:50:21.760 West

00:50:21.940 is

00:50:22.140 concerned

00:50:22.480 is to

00:50:22.800 make

00:50:23.000 sure

00:50:23.360 that

00:50:24.480 its

00:50:25.640 support

00:50:26.200 its

00:50:26.440 economic

00:50:26.900 and

00:50:27.140 military

00:50:27.480 support

00:50:27.980 for

00:50:28.200 Ukraine

00:50:28.640 is

00:50:29.500 not

00:50:29.700 compromised

00:50:30.180 in

00:50:30.820 the

00:50:31.100 medium

00:50:31.960 term

00:50:32.400 and

00:50:32.920 that

00:50:34.000 kind

00:50:34.140 of

00:50:34.260 war

00:50:34.500 weary

00:50:34.880 sentiment

00:50:35.520 that's

00:50:36.460 beginning

00:50:36.700 to kick

00:50:37.100 in

00:50:37.260 many

00:50:37.520 parts

00:50:37.840 of

00:50:38.000 Europe

00:50:38.420 is

00:50:39.280 to

00:50:39.420 some

00:50:39.660 extent

00:50:40.100 contained

00:50:40.660 and

00:50:41.060 is

00:50:41.500 not

00:50:41.640 allowed

00:50:41.940 to

00:50:42.320 undermine

00:50:43.320 the

00:50:43.720 support

00:50:44.040 that

00:50:44.240 Ukraine

00:50:44.540 is

00:50:44.760 getting

00:50:44.960 I

00:50:45.100 think

00:50:45.200 that's

00:50:45.520 what

00:50:46.220 we

00:50:46.340 should

00:50:46.460 be

00:50:46.600 hoping

00:50:46.860 for

00:50:47.220 and

00:50:47.620 fighting

00:50:48.160 for

00:50:48.460 in

00:50:48.600 the

00:50:48.720 current

00:50:49.060 era

00:50:49.500 And

00:50:50.200 the

00:50:50.320 problem

00:50:50.600 as

00:50:50.760 you

00:50:50.880 touched

00:50:51.180 on

00:50:51.360 before

00:50:51.660 Frank

00:50:52.000 with

00:50:52.160 Ukraine

00:50:52.580 is

00:50:52.800 that

00:50:52.960 obviously

00:50:53.320 Ukraine

00:50:57.480 lives

00:50:57.780 but

00:50:58.540 Putin

00:50:58.880 can't

00:50:59.300 lose

00:50:59.520 either

00:50:59.840 he

00:51:00.100 can't

00:51:00.420 lose

00:51:00.620 face

00:51:01.040 Well

00:51:01.640 exactly

00:51:01.860 that's

00:51:02.620 what I

00:51:02.820 write in

00:51:03.080 the book

00:51:03.340 neither

00:51:03.720 side

00:51:04.020 can

00:51:04.160 afford

00:51:04.500 to

00:51:04.720 lose

00:51:05.040 which

00:51:05.980 is

00:51:06.120 why

00:51:06.520 it

00:51:07.740 seems

00:51:08.000 to me

00:51:08.260 that

00:51:08.380 this

00:51:08.560 is

00:51:08.700 a

00:51:08.880 war

00:51:09.080 that's

00:51:09.300 going

00:51:09.420 to

00:51:09.480 go

00:51:09.600 on

00:51:09.720 for

00:51:09.880 a

00:51:10.100 long

00:51:10.380 long

00:51:10.660 time

00:51:11.180 at

00:51:11.320 a

00:51:11.460 certain

00:51:11.700 point

00:51:12.200 something

00:51:13.340 is

00:51:13.640 going

00:51:13.800 to

00:51:13.880 happen

00:51:14.180 in

00:51:14.400 the

00:51:14.680 global

00:51:15.020 dynamic

00:51:15.720 that

00:51:16.920 will

00:51:17.200 essentially

00:51:18.100 till

00:51:18.540 the

00:51:18.760 balance

00:51:19.300 in

00:51:20.280 such

00:51:20.560 a

00:51:20.700 way

00:51:20.860 that

00:51:21.160 the

00:51:21.680 conflict

00:51:22.400 has

00:51:22.860 a

00:51:23.040 chance

00:51:23.560 of

00:51:23.740 being

00:51:23.920 resolved

00:51:24.540 but

00:51:25.500 I

00:51:25.620 don't

00:51:26.180 think

00:51:26.520 that's

00:51:26.640 going

00:51:26.760 to

00:51:26.800 happen

00:51:27.040 just

00:51:27.320 yet

00:51:27.580 because

00:51:27.880 at

00:51:28.060 the

00:51:28.200 moment

00:51:28.480 everybody

00:51:29.220 is

00:51:29.560 literally

00:51:29.800 positioning

00:51:30.300 and

00:51:30.560 even

00:51:30.840 you know

00:51:31.760 we talk

00:51:32.460 about the

00:51:32.780 West

00:51:33.000 helping

00:51:33.600 Ukraine

00:51:34.100 but

00:51:34.920 there's

00:51:35.140 almost

00:51:35.420 like a

00:51:35.840 vulture

00:51:36.200 like

00:51:36.580 approach

00:51:37.020 where

00:51:37.220 different

00:51:37.580 European

00:51:38.000 countries

00:51:38.660 are looking

00:51:39.620 for

00:51:39.880 opportunities

00:51:40.480 in this

00:51:40.960 war

00:51:41.140 it's not

00:51:41.360 like

00:51:41.640 everybody

00:51:42.300 has

00:51:42.500 altruistically

00:51:43.300 decided

00:51:44.400 that

00:51:44.780 we're

00:51:45.080 just

00:51:45.200 going

00:51:45.340 to

00:51:45.420 help

00:51:45.640 Ukraine

00:51:46.020 regardless

00:51:46.440 of its

00:51:46.780 consequences

00:51:47.260 people

00:51:47.560 are

00:51:47.720 looking

00:51:47.940 for

00:51:48.280 you know

00:51:49.240 sort

00:51:49.520 of

00:51:49.640 their

00:51:49.820 own

00:51:50.020 interest

00:51:50.440 and

00:51:50.660 they're

00:51:50.820 asking

00:51:51.040 the

00:51:51.220 question

00:51:51.460 well

00:51:51.780 what's

00:51:52.680 in it

00:51:52.860 for

00:51:53.040 us

00:51:53.380 you know

00:51:53.780 sort

00:51:54.000 of

00:51:54.120 and

00:51:54.220 that

00:51:54.400 kind

00:51:54.620 of

00:51:55.160 real

00:51:55.440 politic

00:51:56.000 is

00:51:57.360 never

00:51:57.600 far

00:51:57.960 from

00:51:58.160 this

00:51:58.320 under

00:51:58.720 the

00:51:58.940 surface

00:51:59.400 as at

00:52:00.140 the

00:52:00.260 moment

00:52:00.620 and

00:52:01.620 it's

00:52:01.800 also

00:52:02.060 you know

00:52:02.560 like you

00:52:03.240 said

00:52:03.380 real

00:52:03.580 politic

00:52:03.980 but

00:52:04.180 there's

00:52:04.740 also

00:52:04.960 people

00:52:05.280 making

00:52:05.580 money

00:52:05.880 out

00:52:06.120 of

00:52:06.240 this

00:52:06.460 as

00:52:06.660 well

00:52:06.900 absolutely

00:52:07.880 yeah

00:52:08.240 this

00:52:08.520 is

00:52:08.760 very

00:52:09.820 much

00:52:10.040 the

00:52:10.220 case

00:52:10.560 you know

00:52:10.960 sort

00:52:11.220 of

00:52:11.440 and

00:52:12.160 there's

00:52:12.360 been

00:52:12.480 a lot

00:52:12.660 of

00:52:12.780 discussions

00:52:19.520 sort

00:52:19.800 of

00:52:19.960 under

00:52:20.280 the

00:52:20.500 radar

00:52:20.760 you know

00:52:21.920 people

00:52:22.520 are

00:52:22.880 profiteering

00:52:23.560 from

00:52:23.860 the

00:52:24.040 arms

00:52:24.400 and

00:52:24.620 various

00:52:24.960 resources

00:52:25.700 and

00:52:25.920 supplies

00:52:26.320 that

00:52:26.540 is

00:52:27.640 being

00:52:27.820 sent

00:52:28.140 to

00:52:28.240 the

00:52:28.360 Ukraine

00:52:28.640 so

00:52:28.880 it is

00:52:29.500 just

00:52:29.800 like

00:52:29.980 any

00:52:30.140 other

00:52:30.300 war

00:52:30.660 you know

00:52:31.560 there is

00:52:31.900 a kind

00:52:32.200 of

00:52:32.320 surface

00:52:32.900 form

00:52:33.520 of

00:52:33.820 patriotism

00:52:34.980 altruism

00:52:35.700 and

00:52:35.940 heroism

00:52:36.420 but

00:52:36.600 under

00:52:36.800 the

00:52:37.000 surface

00:52:37.400 the

00:52:38.820 you know

00:52:39.400 the

00:52:39.560 war

00:52:39.800 profiteering

00:52:40.500 and

00:52:40.860 the

00:52:41.120 hustling

00:52:42.320 and

00:52:42.500 everything

00:52:42.720 else

00:52:43.060 that

00:52:43.280 still

00:52:43.580 goes

00:52:44.160 on

00:52:44.460 because

00:52:44.980 we're

00:52:45.260 also

00:52:45.580 energy

00:52:46.020 dependent

00:52:46.480 on

00:52:47.200 Russia

00:52:47.700 certainly

00:52:48.120 you know

00:52:48.520 not so

00:52:49.580 much

00:52:49.760 our

00:52:49.960 country

00:52:50.280 but

00:52:50.600 Germans

00:52:51.520 etc

00:52:52.120 etc

00:52:52.560 they

00:52:52.840 need

00:52:53.780 Russian

00:52:55.500 energy

00:52:55.940 and we

00:52:56.540 got to

00:52:56.740 understand

00:52:57.080 that

00:52:57.420 I mean

00:52:57.640 you have

00:52:58.060 to remember

00:52:58.460 that

00:52:58.780 there's

00:52:59.600 a danger

00:53:00.140 that if

00:53:00.740 things go

00:53:01.240 the way

00:53:01.520 they are

00:53:01.920 the German

00:53:02.680 economy

00:53:04.100 German

00:53:04.420 industry

00:53:04.940 is simply

00:53:06.260 going to

00:53:06.820 disintegrate

00:53:07.580 and there's

00:53:08.480 already

00:53:08.840 if you look

00:53:09.580 at the

00:53:09.900 German

00:53:10.820 economy

00:53:11.260 the middle

00:53:11.860 level

00:53:12.360 sort of

00:53:13.960 multinational

00:53:14.620 factories

00:53:15.200 are really

00:53:15.680 being hit

00:53:16.160 very very

00:53:16.600 hardly

00:53:16.900 on the

00:53:17.260 small

00:53:18.060 factories

00:53:18.600 that are

00:53:18.920 employing

00:53:19.300 five six

00:53:19.800 hundred

00:53:19.980 people

00:53:20.400 or

00:53:20.700 many

00:53:21.420 of them

00:53:21.640 are being

00:53:21.880 forced

00:53:22.320 to close

00:53:22.780 down

00:53:23.160 so there

00:53:24.260 is a

00:53:24.620 obviously

00:53:24.980 a cost

00:53:25.680 to this

00:53:26.140 and

00:53:27.040 I mean

00:53:27.260 the Germans

00:53:27.740 did this

00:53:28.180 to themselves

00:53:28.660 let's be

00:53:29.120 clear

00:53:29.440 yeah

00:53:29.860 I haven't

00:53:32.080 got very

00:53:32.320 much

00:53:32.500 sympathy

00:53:32.980 I'm just

00:53:34.920 simply saying

00:53:35.480 that they

00:53:35.920 are in

00:53:36.440 a predicament

00:53:37.120 yes

00:53:37.480 and

00:53:38.380 that's

00:53:39.080 going to

00:53:39.360 limit

00:53:40.100 their

00:53:41.160 flexibility

00:53:41.740 and their

00:53:42.520 willingness

00:53:42.920 to do

00:53:43.460 the right

00:53:43.840 thing

00:53:44.220 Frank

00:53:45.520 let me

00:53:45.900 ask you

00:53:46.200 something

00:53:46.440 that

00:53:47.160 a lot

00:53:49.680 of people

00:53:49.940 will find

00:53:50.340 a strange

00:53:51.160 question

00:53:51.680 but I

00:53:52.300 do think

00:53:52.940 is at

00:53:53.740 least a

00:53:54.200 valid

00:53:54.460 question

00:53:54.920 to ask

00:53:55.440 that's

00:53:55.960 normally

00:53:56.140 what I

00:53:56.500 do

00:53:56.640 mate

00:53:56.820 yeah

00:53:57.140 it's

00:53:57.600 true

00:53:57.880 would we

00:54:00.600 be here

00:54:01.480 without

00:54:03.040 all of

00:54:04.380 this

00:54:04.920 identity

00:54:07.760 politics

00:54:08.840 this

00:54:10.180 internal

00:54:10.780 strife

00:54:11.400 and

00:54:11.600 division

00:54:12.060 every

00:54:13.100 time an

00:54:13.540 American

00:54:13.880 president

00:54:14.320 gets

00:54:14.640 elected

00:54:15.080 either

00:54:15.540 he was

00:54:16.180 put there

00:54:16.700 by the

00:54:17.040 Russians

00:54:17.360 or it

00:54:17.980 was a

00:54:18.280 fake

00:54:18.660 election

00:54:19.160 or whatever

00:54:20.140 would we

00:54:20.840 be having

00:54:21.600 a war

00:54:22.580 in Ukraine

00:54:23.080 if the

00:54:24.160 West

00:54:24.500 hadn't

00:54:25.580 just

00:54:25.860 started

00:54:27.060 obsessing

00:54:27.640 about all

00:54:28.060 this

00:54:28.200 stuff

00:54:28.480 it's a

00:54:30.060 very good

00:54:30.360 question

00:54:30.840 and a

00:54:31.580 very difficult

00:54:32.140 one to

00:54:32.940 answer

00:54:33.340 I think

00:54:34.740 that

00:54:35.120 if

00:54:37.320 this was a

00:54:38.600 different

00:54:38.800 world

00:54:39.280 and if

00:54:40.760 we had

00:54:41.120 a stronger

00:54:41.920 sense of

00:54:42.820 purpose

00:54:43.860 and a

00:54:44.940 stronger sense

00:54:45.520 of who

00:54:45.800 we are

00:54:46.120 a greater

00:54:46.440 belief in

00:54:47.280 democracy

00:54:48.420 and sovereignty

00:54:49.260 essentially in

00:54:50.940 Western culture

00:54:51.700 and Western

00:54:52.140 way of

00:54:52.460 life

00:54:52.880 then I

00:54:53.920 think that

00:54:54.640 Western

00:54:55.660 societies

00:54:56.240 would be

00:54:56.620 far more

00:54:57.140 formidable

00:54:57.760 rather than

00:54:59.500 being so

00:55:00.300 weak

00:55:01.640 internally

00:55:02.240 and that

00:55:03.260 would have

00:55:03.540 made people

00:55:04.040 think twice

00:55:04.720 you have to

00:55:05.280 remember

00:55:05.620 that there

00:55:06.680 are many

00:55:06.960 people in

00:55:07.500 Moscow and

00:55:08.180 Beijing

00:55:08.540 who look at

00:55:10.660 the United

00:55:11.020 States in

00:55:11.540 particular

00:55:11.940 and they

00:55:13.220 see

00:55:13.680 tension

00:55:14.920 and conflict

00:55:15.660 and they

00:55:16.080 see

00:55:16.440 an army

00:55:18.000 that spends

00:55:19.260 more time

00:55:20.040 messing around

00:55:21.540 trying to

00:55:21.980 figure out

00:55:22.260 its

00:55:22.420 pronouns

00:55:22.960 than

00:55:24.140 sort of

00:55:24.900 taking its

00:55:25.580 military

00:55:26.280 mission

00:55:26.720 seriously

00:55:27.260 they look

00:55:28.500 at America

00:55:29.000 and they

00:55:29.320 find that

00:55:29.800 this is a

00:55:30.380 post-heroic

00:55:31.240 age

00:55:31.700 where courage

00:55:33.060 is conspicuously

00:55:34.240 absent in

00:55:35.020 terms of

00:55:35.580 the values

00:55:36.220 of American

00:55:37.420 society

00:55:38.000 and one

00:55:38.860 of the

00:55:39.020 points I

00:55:39.360 try to

00:55:39.600 make in

00:55:39.920 the book

00:55:40.320 is that

00:55:41.420 a lot

00:55:41.680 of people

00:55:42.020 in Europe

00:55:42.620 particularly

00:55:43.940 Germans

00:55:44.540 but also

00:55:45.080 others

00:55:45.420 they look

00:55:46.020 at the

00:55:46.360 Ukrainians

00:55:47.020 and they

00:55:48.000 ask themselves

00:55:48.580 the question

00:55:49.080 if we

00:55:49.500 were invaded

00:55:50.060 would our

00:55:51.800 people

00:55:52.240 fight back

00:55:53.860 the way

00:55:54.160 the Ukrainians

00:55:54.880 did

00:55:55.120 would they

00:55:55.440 have the

00:55:55.940 capacity

00:55:57.260 to withstand

00:55:59.200 that level

00:56:00.160 of shock

00:56:00.920 and attack

00:56:01.540 and a lot

00:56:02.960 of people

00:56:03.240 are saying

00:56:03.820 that in

00:56:04.380 their hearts

00:56:04.780 of hearts

00:56:05.300 they don't

00:56:06.340 think that

00:56:06.720 they would

00:56:07.040 I looked

00:56:07.740 at a

00:56:08.020 survey

00:56:08.380 of every

00:56:09.820 single

00:56:10.100 European

00:56:10.360 country

00:56:10.900 and the

00:56:11.800 survey

00:56:12.000 asked the

00:56:12.400 question

00:56:12.820 would you

00:56:13.260 fight

00:56:13.700 against

00:56:14.940 a foreign 0.60

00:56:15.500 invader

00:56:16.120 that was

00:56:17.280 the question

00:56:17.640 they asked

00:56:18.020 do you

00:56:18.180 know which

00:56:18.380 was the

00:56:18.620 country

00:56:19.040 that had

00:56:20.040 the highest

00:56:20.540 response rate

00:56:21.320 that they

00:56:21.580 would find

00:56:22.160 any idea

00:56:22.940 no

00:56:23.660 it was

00:56:24.340 Finland

00:56:24.640 yes

00:56:25.600 and that's

00:56:26.000 understandable

00:56:26.440 that makes

00:56:26.800 sense

00:56:26.940 they've done

00:56:28.020 it before

00:56:28.460 they've done

00:56:28.780 it before

00:56:29.140 it makes

00:56:29.600 perfect sense

00:56:30.340 and then

00:56:31.240 on the low

00:56:32.040 end

00:56:32.380 it would be

00:56:33.380 like the

00:56:33.680 Dutch

00:56:34.060 no jokes

00:56:35.540 about Dutch

00:56:36.040 courage

00:56:36.400 it was the

00:56:38.740 Dutch

00:56:39.000 and the

00:56:39.260 more

00:56:39.440 cosmopolitan

00:56:40.720 nations

00:56:42.300 and I

00:56:43.520 think that

00:56:44.080 when you

00:56:45.020 look at

00:56:45.960 this goes

00:56:46.620 back to

00:56:46.960 my point

00:56:47.340 about

00:56:47.500 moral

00:56:47.820 disarmament

00:56:48.600 when you

00:56:49.420 morally

00:56:49.680 disarm

00:56:50.340 you know

00:56:51.560 and the

00:56:53.180 first time

00:56:53.640 we ever

00:56:53.960 used the

00:56:54.360 term

00:56:54.520 moral

00:56:54.780 disarmament

00:56:55.480 was in

00:56:56.380 relation

00:56:56.720 to

00:56:56.960 France

00:56:57.320 in

00:56:57.540 1930s

00:56:58.440 where

00:56:58.580 it

00:56:58.660 just

00:56:58.800 basically

00:56:59.280 gave

00:57:00.440 up

00:57:00.740 you know

00:57:01.180 sort

00:57:01.440 of

00:57:01.600 allowed

00:57:02.060 the

00:57:02.280 Germans

00:57:02.580 to walk

00:57:03.020 into

00:57:03.200 Paris

00:57:03.680 you know

00:57:04.140 kind

00:57:04.340 of

00:57:04.440 more

00:57:04.620 or

00:57:04.700 less

00:57:04.920 when

00:57:05.540 you

00:57:05.660 kind

00:57:05.800 of

00:57:05.880 morally

00:57:06.140 disarm

00:57:06.680 in

00:57:06.860 the

00:57:06.940 way

00:57:07.060 that

00:57:07.180 we

00:57:07.300 did

00:57:07.640 then

00:57:08.460 being

00:57:08.700 able

00:57:08.980 to

00:57:09.380 militarily

00:57:10.460 and

00:57:10.800 physically

00:57:11.380 rearm

00:57:12.660 or

00:57:13.220 be firm

00:57:15.020 is problematic

00:57:16.140 I mean

00:57:16.580 I hope

00:57:16.820 I'm wrong

00:57:17.340 well

00:57:18.720 this is

00:57:19.340 I made

00:57:20.660 this point

00:57:21.100 the day

00:57:21.500 the invasion

00:57:22.060 happened

00:57:22.560 in my

00:57:23.380 opinion

00:57:23.660 it would

00:57:24.000 never

00:57:24.260 have

00:57:24.460 happened

00:57:24.700 if we

00:57:25.020 hadn't

00:57:25.260 spent

00:57:25.540 the last

00:57:26.000 six

00:57:26.320 years

00:57:26.720 obsessing

00:57:27.420 about

00:57:27.660 stuff

00:57:27.960 that

00:57:28.180 didn't

00:57:28.460 really

00:57:28.660 matter

00:57:28.980 but

00:57:30.500 I have

00:57:31.560 been

00:57:31.760 heartened

00:57:32.320 by the

00:57:32.780 West

00:57:32.980 response

00:57:33.480 actually

00:57:34.440 and I

00:57:35.500 suppose

00:57:35.700 the

00:57:35.880 question

00:57:36.180 for me

00:57:36.640 is

00:57:36.980 has

00:57:37.700 this

00:57:37.960 been

00:57:38.220 the

00:57:38.420 wake

00:57:38.680 up

00:57:38.840 call

00:57:39.100 that

00:57:39.260 we

00:57:39.380 needed

00:57:39.580 because

00:57:39.860 I

00:57:40.260 don't

00:57:40.500 believe

00:57:40.860 that

00:57:41.060 Vladimir

00:57:41.400 Putin

00:57:41.760 is

00:57:41.960 sitting

00:57:42.160 in

00:57:42.320 the

00:57:42.440 Kremlin

00:57:45.020 I

00:57:46.240 think

00:57:46.720 he

00:57:46.880 overestimated

00:57:47.660 the

00:57:47.940 weakness

00:57:48.240 and

00:57:48.480 division

00:57:48.780 of

00:57:48.980 the

00:57:49.120 West

00:57:49.400 I

00:57:49.980 think

00:57:50.160 he

00:57:50.300 overestimated

00:57:51.100 the

00:57:52.120 reaction

00:57:52.860 that

00:57:53.180 he

00:57:53.420 would

00:57:53.600 receive

00:57:54.020 both

00:57:54.920 from

00:57:55.200 within

00:57:55.620 Ukraine

00:57:56.000 and

00:57:56.220 from

00:57:56.520 externally

00:57:57.200 is

00:57:58.180 it

00:57:58.340 possible

00:57:58.800 that

00:57:59.260 this

00:57:59.880 is

00:58:00.080 the

00:58:00.280 spark

00:58:00.760 the

00:58:00.980 West

00:58:01.200 needed

00:58:01.520 to

00:58:01.760 wake

00:58:02.240 up

00:58:02.420 and

00:58:02.540 go

00:58:02.660 maybe

00:58:02.960 we

00:58:03.200 shouldn't

00:58:04.100 make

00:58:04.400 ourselves

00:58:04.700 energy

00:58:05.080 dependent

00:58:05.540 on

00:58:05.860 people

00:58:06.240 who

00:58:06.980 are

00:58:07.320 at

00:58:08.140 least

00:58:08.360 adversaries

00:58:09.320 let's

00:58:09.920 put it

00:58:10.180 that

00:58:10.360 way

00:58:10.620 right

00:58:11.160 this

00:58:11.920 is

00:58:12.120 maybe

00:58:12.560 the

00:58:12.780 moment

00:58:13.040 we

00:58:13.220 go

00:58:13.380 look

00:58:13.760 globalization

00:58:14.180 was

00:58:14.520 great

00:58:14.740 for

00:58:14.920 a

00:58:15.040 while

00:58:15.280 but

00:58:16.240 it's

00:58:16.700 not

00:58:16.840 working

00:58:17.160 in

00:58:17.320 this

00:58:17.460 current

00:58:17.700 climate

00:58:17.980 we've

00:58:18.240 got

00:58:18.340 to

00:58:18.440 have

00:58:18.660 food

00:58:18.920 security

00:58:19.400 we've

00:58:19.660 got

00:58:19.720 to

00:58:19.760 have

00:58:19.880 energy

00:58:20.160 security

00:58:20.680 we've

00:58:20.980 got

00:58:21.040 to

00:58:21.100 have

00:58:21.220 actual

00:58:21.580 security

00:58:22.180 we've

00:58:22.980 got

00:58:23.100 to

00:58:23.360 be

00:58:24.000 willing

00:58:24.280 to

00:58:24.540 work

00:58:25.140 in

00:58:25.640 a

00:58:25.780 different

00:58:26.040 way

00:58:26.280 in

00:58:26.420 this

00:58:26.560 new

00:58:26.760 world

00:58:27.040 and

00:58:27.200 part

00:58:27.480 of

00:58:27.580 that

00:58:27.740 means

00:58:28.120 we've

00:58:28.680 got

00:58:28.780 to

00:58:28.880 stop

00:58:29.100 obsessing

00:58:29.580 about

00:58:29.760 stuff

00:58:30.020 that

00:58:30.140 doesn't

00:58:30.380 matter

00:58:30.620 and

00:58:30.800 deal

00:58:30.940 with

00:58:31.040 it

00:58:31.140 do

00:58:31.220 think

00:58:31.360 that's

00:58:31.540 possible

00:58:31.920 possible

00:58:33.360 but

00:58:33.780 if

00:58:34.100 he

00:58:34.840 kind

00:58:35.120 of

00:58:35.240 rolled

00:58:35.580 the

00:58:35.740 film

00:58:35.940 backwards

00:58:36.380 when

00:58:37.480 the

00:58:37.620 war

00:58:37.780 broke

00:58:38.060 out

00:58:38.460 Putin's 0.59

00:58:39.880 assessment

00:58:40.220 of the

00:58:40.520 West

00:58:40.680 was

00:58:40.840 absolutely

00:58:41.100 correct

00:58:41.600 because

00:58:42.620 if you

00:58:42.920 remember

00:58:43.240 the

00:58:43.500 initial

00:58:43.840 reaction

00:58:44.320 in the

00:58:45.240 weeks

00:58:45.500 leading up

00:58:45.980 to the

00:58:46.160 invasion

00:58:46.560 and

00:58:47.100 on the

00:58:47.700 day

00:58:47.880 of

00:58:48.000 the

00:58:48.100 invasion

00:58:48.460 was

00:58:49.560 we

00:58:49.780 don't

00:58:50.140 really

00:58:50.320 want

00:58:50.460 to

00:58:50.540 help

00:58:50.740 the

00:58:50.900 Ukrainians

00:58:51.320 too 0.76

00:58:51.540 much

00:58:51.900 because

00:58:52.760 the

00:58:52.940 war

00:58:53.120 is

00:58:53.220 going

00:58:53.320 to

00:58:53.380 be

00:58:53.500 finished

00:58:53.840 in

00:58:53.980 a

00:58:54.060 couple

00:58:54.220 of

00:58:54.360 weeks

00:58:54.640 true

00:58:54.920 it's

00:58:55.540 pointless

00:58:55.920 and

00:58:56.500 in

00:58:57.120 the

00:58:57.240 book

00:58:57.380 I

00:58:57.500 mention

00:58:57.800 all

00:58:58.060 these

00:58:58.240 people

00:58:58.620 the

00:58:59.640 German

00:59:00.200 government

00:59:00.540 basically

00:59:00.920 telling

00:59:01.300 the

00:59:01.500 Ukrainian

00:59:01.900 ambassador

00:59:02.840 we're

00:59:03.100 not

00:59:03.160 going

00:59:03.260 to

00:59:03.320 help

00:59:03.540 you

00:59:03.780 because

00:59:04.360 in

00:59:04.480 a

00:59:04.520 couple

00:59:04.680 of

00:59:04.820 weeks

00:59:05.140 there's

00:59:05.880 not

00:59:06.000 going

00:59:06.120 to

00:59:06.140 be

00:59:06.240 a

00:59:06.340 Ukraine

00:59:06.740 so

00:59:07.480 you

00:59:07.600 had

00:59:07.720 this

00:59:07.900 very

00:59:08.140 kind

00:59:08.360 of 0.85

00:59:08.480 cowardly 0.64

00:59:09.680 extremely 0.99

00:59:10.800 opportunistic

00:59:12.600 reaction

00:59:13.120 by the

00:59:13.480 West

00:59:13.780 not

00:59:14.340 by

00:59:14.540 Britain

00:59:14.820 Britain

00:59:15.760 was

00:59:16.000 the

00:59:17.340 honorable

00:59:17.720 exception

00:59:18.260 the

00:59:19.060 two

00:59:19.260 good

00:59:19.460 countries

00:59:19.920 in

00:59:20.160 this

00:59:20.380 drama

00:59:20.780 at

00:59:21.020 that

00:59:21.220 point

00:59:21.520 are

00:59:21.820 Britain

00:59:22.120 and

00:59:22.320 Poland

00:59:22.660 and

00:59:23.920 the

00:59:24.060 Baltics

00:59:24.420 as

00:59:24.580 well

00:59:24.680 and

00:59:26.060 then

00:59:26.800 what

00:59:26.960 happens

00:59:27.380 is

00:59:28.180 that

00:59:28.560 when

00:59:29.200 people

00:59:29.620 in

00:59:29.740 the

00:59:29.840 West

00:59:30.040 see

00:59:30.340 that

00:59:30.540 the

00:59:30.700 Ukrainians

00:59:31.440 are

00:59:32.180 fighting

00:59:33.220 that

00:59:34.440 they're

00:59:34.680 not

00:59:34.880 rolling

00:59:35.340 over

00:59:35.760 and

00:59:36.140 that

00:59:36.820 contrary

00:59:37.380 to

00:59:37.660 their

00:59:37.800 expectation

00:59:38.400 the

00:59:39.320 Russian

00:59:39.580 army

00:59:39.940 is

00:59:40.300 making

00:59:40.660 one

00:59:41.020 blunderous

00:59:41.580 mistake

00:59:41.980 after

00:59:42.300 another

00:59:42.660 suddenly

00:59:43.900 what

00:59:44.220 you

00:59:44.360 have

00:59:44.640 is

00:59:44.780 a

00:59:44.920 situation

00:59:45.320 where

00:59:45.640 every

00:59:46.440 Western

00:59:46.840 leader

00:59:47.220 wants

00:59:47.520 to 0.99

00:59:47.680 hang

00:59:47.840 out

00:59:47.980 in

00:59:48.120 Kiev

00:59:48.560 and

00:59:50.040 wants

00:59:50.680 to

00:59:50.780 take

00:59:50.900 these

00:59:51.100 pictures

00:59:51.460 with

00:59:51.720 the

00:59:51.840 Ukrainian

00:59:52.300 president

00:59:52.860 and

00:59:53.700 at that

00:59:54.000 point

00:59:54.140 what

00:59:54.320 you

00:59:54.440 have

00:59:54.680 is

00:59:54.860 Ukraine

00:59:55.200 becomes

00:59:55.680 what

00:59:55.880 I

00:59:56.020 call

00:59:56.300 a

00:59:57.240 medium

00:59:58.440 to

00:59:58.740 which

00:59:58.960 Western

00:59:59.320 leaders

00:59:59.680 try to

01:00:00.240 gain

01:00:00.920 legitimacy

01:00:01.600 and

01:00:02.600 look

01:00:03.400 authoritative

01:00:03.960 standing

01:00:04.380 next to

01:00:04.840 him

01:00:05.040 which is

01:00:05.720 a little

01:00:05.900 bit

01:00:06.060 parasitic 0.74

01:00:06.680 because

01:00:07.000 they are

01:00:07.360 being

01:00:07.560 parasitic

01:00:08.180 on what

01:00:08.980 the

01:00:09.100 Ukrainians

01:00:09.520 are

01:00:09.680 doing

01:00:10.060 and

01:00:10.780 then

01:00:11.020 when

01:00:11.360 Biden

01:00:11.840 sees

01:00:12.520 that

01:00:13.500 Russia

01:00:13.800 is in

01:00:14.120 big

01:00:14.340 trouble

01:00:14.760 that's

01:00:16.120 at that

01:00:16.440 point

01:00:16.660 that the

01:00:16.980 West

01:00:17.160 starts

01:00:17.480 coming

01:00:17.760 together

01:00:18.160 and

01:00:18.360 NATO

01:00:18.640 is

01:00:18.840 reinvented

01:00:19.360 because

01:00:19.480 NATO

01:00:19.680 was a 0.97

01:00:20.040 zombie

01:00:20.360 organization

01:00:20.820 beforehand

01:00:22.140 so

01:00:22.400 NATO

01:00:22.700 is

01:00:22.920 reinvented

01:00:23.500 as

01:00:23.660 this

01:00:23.980 sort

01:00:24.980 of

01:00:25.100 credible

01:00:25.440 force

01:00:25.920 Europe

01:00:26.700 begins

01:00:27.120 to

01:00:27.420 in a

01:00:28.480 sense

01:00:28.800 talk

01:00:29.920 with

01:00:30.060 greater

01:00:30.300 unity

01:00:30.720 than

01:00:31.000 previously

01:00:31.500 not

01:00:31.800 completely

01:00:32.560 and

01:00:33.480 then

01:00:33.680 you

01:00:33.800 have

01:00:33.940 this

01:00:34.120 apparent

01:00:34.560 solidity

01:00:35.500 this

01:00:35.720 solidarity

01:00:36.300 in the

01:00:36.520 West

01:00:36.740 which

01:00:37.000 I

01:00:37.260 still

01:00:38.120 think

01:00:38.380 is

01:00:38.520 more

01:00:38.720 apparent

01:00:39.040 than

01:00:39.280 real

01:00:39.560 but

01:00:40.440 give

01:00:40.920 them

01:00:41.100 credit

01:00:41.380 where

01:00:41.580 it's

01:00:41.800 due

01:00:42.060 I

01:00:42.700 think

01:00:42.860 at

01:00:42.980 that

01:00:43.160 point

01:00:43.380 people

01:00:43.800 feel

01:00:44.140 that

01:00:44.320 on

01:00:44.460 balance

01:00:45.020 supporting

01:00:46.400 Ukraine

01:00:46.960 at this

01:00:47.560 particular

01:00:47.820 moment

01:00:48.180 in

01:00:48.400 time

01:00:48.740 is

01:00:49.360 far

01:00:49.700 better

01:00:50.560 choice

01:00:50.920 to

01:00:51.100 make

01:00:51.380 than

01:00:51.580 just

01:00:51.820 holding

01:00:52.120 back

01:00:52.460 in

01:00:52.600 the

01:00:52.680 way

01:00:52.860 we're

01:00:53.040 doing

01:00:53.280 beforehand

01:00:53.940 however

01:00:55.060 I

01:00:55.260 think

01:00:55.500 where

01:00:56.800 Constantine

01:00:57.640 you really

01:00:58.020 are right

01:00:58.600 is that

01:00:59.840 because of

01:01:00.280 what really

01:01:01.140 happened

01:01:01.660 globalization

01:01:03.980 not globalization

01:01:04.820 but globalist

01:01:05.680 ideology

01:01:06.280 becomes

01:01:07.040 no longer

01:01:07.740 credible

01:01:08.780 you have

01:01:09.900 the

01:01:10.180 fragmentation

01:01:10.820 of

01:01:11.420 regions

01:01:12.480 and the

01:01:13.660 reinsertion

01:01:15.420 of

01:01:15.640 pride

01:01:16.520 in the

01:01:16.840 nation

01:01:17.140 and national

01:01:17.620 sovereignty

01:01:18.060 and the

01:01:18.360 recognition

01:01:18.800 that in

01:01:19.860 economic

01:01:20.260 terms

01:01:20.880 you cannot

01:01:22.100 rely

01:01:23.000 on

01:01:23.920 God

01:01:24.300 or

01:01:24.500 somebody

01:01:24.900 in

01:01:25.300 America

01:01:25.760 to

01:01:26.400 provide

01:01:26.720 you

01:01:26.840 with

01:01:26.980 food

01:01:27.200 and

01:01:27.360 energy

01:01:27.700 or

01:01:28.000 even

01:01:28.240 with

01:01:28.440 vaccines

01:01:29.000 you

01:01:29.740 gotta

01:01:29.960 attend

01:01:30.400 to

01:01:30.560 those

01:01:30.760 things

01:01:31.040 yourself

01:01:31.580 and

01:01:32.340 I

01:01:32.440 think

01:01:32.540 that

01:01:32.760 has

01:01:32.960 really

01:01:33.140 created

01:01:33.580 a much

01:01:34.020 greater

01:01:34.440 understanding

01:01:35.780 that

01:01:36.720 the

01:01:36.920 nation

01:01:37.400 isn't

01:01:38.360 just

01:01:38.760 unimportant

01:01:39.860 as it

01:01:40.280 was

01:01:40.420 argued

01:01:40.680 earlier

01:01:41.020 on

01:01:41.200 the

01:01:41.320 national

01:01:41.680 borders

01:01:42.160 do

01:01:42.740 matter

01:01:43.140 and

01:01:44.000 that

01:01:44.220 we

01:01:44.420 have

01:01:44.620 to

01:01:44.900 be

01:01:45.520 much

01:01:46.160 more

01:01:46.400 self

01:01:46.660 sufficient

01:01:47.060 than

01:01:47.440 we

01:01:47.540 were

01:01:47.680 beforehand

01:01:48.180 and

01:01:49.140 that's

01:01:49.400 creating

01:01:49.760 an

01:01:50.380 interesting

01:01:50.840 global

01:01:52.340 dynamic

01:01:52.880 where

01:01:54.140 essentially

01:01:54.900 we're

01:01:55.060 going to

01:01:55.240 have

01:01:55.460 much

01:01:55.740 greater

01:01:56.040 emphasis

01:01:57.200 on

01:01:57.480 regions

01:01:58.040 looking

01:01:59.020 after

01:01:59.380 each

01:01:59.640 other

01:01:59.820 and

01:02:00.000 division

01:02:00.420 of

01:02:00.580 labor

01:02:00.800 established

01:02:01.280 within

01:02:01.580 regional

01:02:01.980 settings

01:02:02.480 and

01:02:03.420 that

01:02:03.600 might

01:02:04.120 sort

01:02:04.660 of

01:02:04.940 cross

01:02:05.600 fingers

01:02:06.040 crossed

01:02:06.620 create

01:02:07.440 a

01:02:07.600 greater

01:02:07.820 awareness

01:02:08.320 of

01:02:08.620 a

01:02:09.480 sovereign

01:02:09.860 political

01:02:10.720 outlook

01:02:11.300 and

01:02:12.040 also

01:02:12.400 the

01:02:13.200 kind

01:02:13.360 of

01:02:13.500 moral

01:02:13.980 values

01:02:15.240 that

01:02:15.560 are

01:02:15.900 usually

01:02:16.240 associated

01:02:16.800 with

01:02:17.020 patriotism

01:02:17.840 and

01:02:18.600 commitment

01:02:19.020 to your

01:02:19.360 nation

01:02:19.660 I think

01:02:19.980 that

01:02:20.580 would

01:02:20.700 be

01:02:20.800 a

01:02:20.920 really

01:02:21.060 positive

01:02:21.480 thing

01:02:21.900 and

01:02:22.140 you

01:02:22.700 can

01:02:22.820 see

01:02:23.000 a

01:02:23.140 bit

01:02:23.260 of

01:02:23.380 that

01:02:23.520 I

01:02:23.620 was

01:02:23.740 in

01:02:23.900 Finland

01:02:24.140 recently

01:02:24.740 and

01:02:25.500 I

01:02:25.600 just

01:02:25.760 love

01:02:26.060 the

01:02:26.240 fact

01:02:26.440 that

01:02:26.600 there

01:02:26.720 are

01:02:26.780 all

01:02:26.940 these

01:02:27.120 young

01:02:27.360 kids

01:02:27.720 volunteering

01:02:28.800 to

01:02:29.200 join

01:02:29.440 this

01:02:29.760 reserve

01:02:32.480 that

01:02:32.860 kind

01:02:33.760 of

01:02:33.840 attitude

01:02:34.140 if

01:02:34.340 you

01:02:34.440 see

01:02:34.560 a

01:02:34.700 bit

01:02:34.840 more

01:02:35.080 of

01:02:35.220 that

01:02:35.400 could

01:02:35.620 be

01:02:35.940 a

01:02:36.500 really

01:02:36.660 good

01:02:37.100 development

01:02:37.700 Because

01:02:38.520 what

01:02:38.700 will

01:02:38.860 happen

01:02:39.200 Frank

01:02:39.600 if

01:02:39.960 we

01:02:40.700 take

01:02:41.040 the

01:02:41.260 easy

01:02:41.540 way

01:02:41.780 out

01:02:42.040 or

01:02:42.220 the 0.99

01:02:42.360 coward's 0.93

01:02:42.800 way 1.00

01:02:42.920 out

01:02:43.040 or

01:02:43.160 however

01:02:43.420 way

01:02:43.740 you

01:02:43.880 want

01:02:44.040 to

01:02:44.140 say

01:02:44.360 it

01:02:44.500 and

01:02:44.620 we

01:02:44.780 don't

01:02:45.180 give

01:02:45.480 Ukraine

01:02:46.340 the

01:02:46.560 support

01:02:46.920 that

01:02:47.120 it

01:02:47.240 needs

01:02:47.560 what

01:02:48.180 do

01:02:48.300 you

01:02:48.420 think

01:02:48.620 will

01:02:48.780 happen

01:02:49.060 then

01:02:49.320 I

01:02:50.780 think

01:02:50.980 what

01:02:51.120 will

01:02:51.260 happen

01:02:51.580 is

01:02:52.040 that

01:02:52.460 Russia

01:02:54.280 well

01:02:54.540 if

01:02:54.680 that

01:02:54.800 would

01:02:54.920 happen

01:02:55.360 obviously

01:02:55.820 Russia

01:02:56.300 would

01:02:57.420 begin

01:02:57.800 to

01:02:58.120 imagine

01:02:58.700 that

01:02:58.940 it

01:02:59.080 can

01:02:59.240 recreate

01:02:59.680 the

01:02:59.880 Yalta

01:03:00.160 borders

01:03:00.640 and

01:03:01.520 that

01:03:01.640 would

01:03:01.780 have

01:03:01.900 all

01:03:02.080 kinds

01:03:02.300 of

01:03:02.420 negative

01:03:02.700 consequences

01:03:03.420 in the

01:03:04.240 Baltic

01:03:04.640 States

01:03:05.020 it

01:03:05.160 would

01:03:05.240 have

01:03:05.380 negative

01:03:05.700 consequences

01:03:06.300 in

01:03:06.620 East

01:03:06.920 Europe

01:03:07.260 but

01:03:08.140 more

01:03:08.320 importantly

01:03:08.920 it

01:03:09.780 would

01:03:09.900 send

01:03:10.140 out

01:03:10.280 a

01:03:10.460 signal

01:03:10.920 that

01:03:11.500 what

01:03:14.320 really

01:03:14.540 matters

01:03:14.900 is

01:03:15.140 your

01:03:15.280 power

01:03:15.660 your

01:03:16.120 might

01:03:16.520 rather

01:03:16.880 than

01:03:17.020 anything

01:03:17.300 else

01:03:17.680 and

01:03:17.920 I

01:03:18.100 think

01:03:18.300 that

01:03:18.560 would

01:03:19.020 then

01:03:19.160 create

01:03:19.440 a

01:03:19.580 situation

01:03:20.100 where

01:03:21.360 wars

01:03:22.220 and

01:03:22.440 militarization

01:03:23.340 of the

01:03:23.800 global

01:03:24.060 environment

01:03:24.620 would

01:03:25.780 gain

01:03:26.000 much

01:03:26.340 greater

01:03:26.620 traction

01:03:27.180 than

01:03:27.540 is

01:03:27.660 the

01:03:27.800 case

01:03:28.020 at

01:03:28.160 the

01:03:28.300 moment

01:03:28.640 my

01:03:29.780 big

01:03:30.680 worry

01:03:30.980 at

01:03:31.120 the

01:03:31.260 moment

01:03:31.600 is

01:03:32.040 not

01:03:32.180 Russia

01:03:32.580 you know

01:03:33.660 I mean

01:03:33.920 Russia

01:03:34.220 is

01:03:34.400 Russia

01:03:34.740 and

01:03:35.100 you know

01:03:36.420 fortunately

01:03:37.580 I'm not

01:03:37.960 living in

01:03:38.440 Riga

01:03:38.740 or

01:03:39.220 Tallinn 0.99

01:03:40.340 but

01:03:41.260 my

01:03:41.560 big

01:03:41.840 worry

01:03:42.240 is

01:03:42.540 the

01:03:42.840 way

01:03:43.660 that

01:03:43.820 our

01:03:44.000 societies

01:03:44.600 Britain

01:03:45.460 and

01:03:45.740 elsewhere

01:03:46.260 have

01:03:47.240 kind

01:03:47.380 of

01:03:47.480 lost

01:03:47.720 their

01:03:47.920 way

01:03:48.120 which

01:03:48.340 is

01:03:48.440 why

01:03:48.580 the

01:03:48.720 book

01:03:48.860 is

01:03:49.080 really

01:03:49.540 about

01:03:49.760 how

01:03:49.920 the

01:03:50.040 West

01:03:50.240 lost

01:03:50.540 their

01:03:50.720 way

01:03:50.920 and

01:03:51.120 the

01:03:51.400 way

01:03:51.580 in

01:03:51.720 which

01:03:51.940 they

01:03:52.900 simply

01:03:53.200 have

01:03:53.540 forgotten

01:03:54.580 what

01:03:54.860 they

01:03:55.040 are

01:03:55.260 what

01:03:55.440 they

01:03:55.580 are

01:03:55.680 about

01:03:56.020 and

01:03:56.480 not

01:03:57.160 having

01:03:57.400 a

01:03:57.760 robust

01:03:58.720 sense

01:03:59.140 of

01:03:59.260 national

01:03:59.600 purpose

01:04:00.060 I think

01:04:00.360 that's

01:04:00.740 what

01:04:01.240 haunts

01:04:01.620 me

01:04:01.800 all the

01:04:02.060 time

01:04:02.320 yeah

01:04:02.660 me

01:04:03.280 too

01:04:03.560 which

01:04:03.800 is

01:04:03.940 why

01:04:04.160 I

01:04:04.320 do

01:04:04.500 hope

01:04:04.800 this

01:04:05.060 is

01:04:05.240 the

01:04:05.440 spark

01:04:05.840 that

01:04:06.220 we've

01:04:06.500 needed

01:04:06.780 to

01:04:07.200 wake

01:04:07.700 up

01:04:07.880 from

01:04:08.080 our

01:04:08.260 super

01:04:08.500 and

01:04:08.680 I

01:04:08.800 think

01:04:08.980 some

01:04:09.600 people

01:04:09.960 are

01:04:10.160 starting

01:04:10.460 to

01:04:10.720 realize

01:04:11.120 we

01:04:11.440 don't

01:04:11.740 live

01:04:12.000 in

01:04:12.300 the

01:04:12.420 magical

01:04:12.800 rainbow

01:04:13.260 unicorn

01:04:13.820 world

01:04:14.300 that

01:04:14.640 we've

01:04:15.000 sort

01:04:15.500 been

01:04:15.740 dreaming

01:04:16.180 in

01:04:16.480 for

01:04:16.640 the

01:04:16.780 last

01:04:17.000 30

01:04:17.220 years

01:04:17.440 and

01:04:17.580 it's

01:04:17.800 been

01:04:18.360 a

01:04:18.500 luxury

01:04:18.780 and

01:04:18.960 a

01:04:19.080 privilege

01:04:19.360 that

01:04:19.560 we've

01:04:19.760 had

01:04:20.020 it's

01:04:20.800 been

01:04:20.940 a

01:04:21.080 great

01:04:21.380 few

01:04:21.820 decades

01:04:22.240 for

01:04:22.640 actually

01:04:23.560 most

01:04:23.920 of

01:04:24.080 the

01:04:24.180 world

01:04:24.420 frankly

01:04:24.820 however

01:04:25.760 in

01:04:26.260 order

01:04:26.420 to

01:04:26.680 maintain

01:04:27.120 that

01:04:27.380 world

01:04:27.680 you

01:04:27.880 have

01:04:28.100 to

01:04:28.240 be

01:04:28.380 willing

01:04:28.640 to

01:04:28.920 stand

01:04:29.160 up

01:04:29.360 for

01:04:29.500 it

01:04:29.640 and

01:04:29.860 we

01:04:30.080 haven't

01:04:30.420 been

01:04:30.580 so

01:04:30.860 I

01:04:31.480 hope

01:04:31.680 that's

01:04:31.920 what

01:04:32.020 happens

01:04:32.340 Frank

01:04:32.900 it's

01:04:33.100 been

01:04:33.260 a

01:04:33.480 great

01:04:33.800 conversation

01:04:34.240 I

01:04:34.380 hope

01:04:34.500 everybody

01:04:34.860 gets

01:04:35.380 the

01:04:35.560 book

01:04:35.800 here

01:04:45.500 not

01:04:45.660 talking

01:04:46.040 about

01:04:46.440 in

01:04:46.760 our

01:04:46.940 society

01:04:47.380 that

01:04:47.640 we

01:04:47.760 really

01:04:48.000 should

01:04:48.200 be

01:04:48.340 in

01:04:48.440 your

01:04:48.560 opinion

01:04:48.860 well

01:04:50.020 the

01:04:50.260 one

01:04:51.000 issue

01:04:51.200 I

01:04:51.380 feel

01:04:51.540 very

01:04:51.820 passionate

01:04:52.600 about

01:04:53.080 and

01:04:53.620 resent

01:04:54.380 that

01:04:54.600 it's

01:04:54.760 never

01:04:54.980 actually

01:04:55.360 discussed

01:04:56.600 in

01:04:56.760 its

01:04:56.940 own

01:04:57.160 terms

01:04:57.640 is

01:04:58.520 the

01:04:58.660 way

01:04:58.860 that

01:04:59.060 we're

01:04:59.460 infantilizing

01:05:00.420 our

01:05:00.680 society

01:05:01.220 and

01:05:01.540 the

01:05:01.860 way

01:05:02.020 that

01:05:02.340 adults

01:05:03.400 are

01:05:03.720 encouraged

01:05:04.420 to

01:05:04.660 behave

01:05:04.880 like

01:05:05.120 children

01:05:05.480 and

01:05:06.480 the

01:05:06.580 way

01:05:06.700 that

01:05:06.920 children

01:05:07.240 are

01:05:07.620 adultified

01:05:08.580 and

01:05:09.060 that

01:05:09.660 boundary

01:05:10.040 between

01:05:10.460 adulthood

01:05:11.380 and

01:05:11.700 childhood

01:05:12.100 is

01:05:12.280 lost

01:05:12.680 so

01:05:13.620 what

01:05:13.740 we have

01:05:15.500 a lot

01:05:16.260 of

01:05:16.400 biologically

01:05:17.020 mature

01:05:17.480 people

01:05:18.020 but

01:05:19.020 who

01:05:19.180 are

01:05:19.360 essentially

01:05:20.020 not

01:05:20.280 encouraged

01:05:20.720 to

01:05:21.100 take

01:05:21.500 themselves

01:05:21.880 seriously

01:05:22.440 and

01:05:22.840 have

01:05:23.500 that

01:05:23.700 sense

01:05:24.020 of

01:05:24.200 moral

01:05:24.500 and

01:05:24.720 intellectual

01:05:25.140 independence

01:05:25.720 that

01:05:26.080 we

01:05:26.220 need

01:05:26.540 and

01:05:27.100 we

01:05:27.220 need

01:05:27.400 that

01:05:27.620 precisely

01:05:28.220 for

01:05:29.420 dealing

01:05:29.860 with

01:05:30.040 the

01:05:30.180 challenges

01:05:30.620 that

01:05:30.820 we've

01:05:30.980 been

01:05:31.100 discussing

01:05:31.540 because

01:05:32.160 this

01:05:32.900 is

01:05:33.060 very

01:05:33.240 much

01:05:33.440 a

01:05:33.560 grown

01:05:33.780 up

01:05:33.940 issue

01:05:34.280 and

01:05:35.340 our

01:05:36.040 children

01:05:36.460 or

01:05:37.040 people

01:05:37.340 who

01:05:37.500 behave

01:05:37.700 childishly

01:05:38.440 are

01:05:39.140 not

01:05:39.320 going

01:05:39.480 to

01:05:39.580 be

01:05:39.700 in

01:05:39.800 a

01:05:39.920 position

01:05:40.340 to

01:05:41.340 give

01:05:41.500 a

01:05:41.640 lead

01:05:41.880 or

01:05:42.100 to

01:05:42.400 fight

01:05:43.360 back

01:05:43.720 against

01:05:44.020 all

01:05:44.320 the

01:05:44.560 bad

01:05:45.580 and

01:05:45.760 negative

01:05:46.080 developments

01:05:46.700 that

01:05:46.940 are

01:05:47.060 kicking

01:05:47.280 in

01:05:47.480 our

01:05:47.720 world

01:05:48.160 Frank

01:05:49.160 it's

01:05:49.600 been

01:05:49.820 a

01:05:50.160 pleasure

01:05:50.500 if

01:05:50.760 people

01:05:50.960 want

01:05:51.120 to

01:05:51.220 find

01:05:51.460 you

01:05:51.580 online

01:05:51.920 if

01:05:52.100 they

01:05:52.220 want

01:05:52.360 to

01:05:52.420 get

01:05:52.540 the

01:05:52.680 book

01:05:52.960 where's

01:05:53.340 the

01:05:53.420 best

01:05:53.580 place

01:05:53.860 to

01:05:54.000 do

01:05:54.140 that

01:05:54.360 well

01:05:54.800 the

01:05:54.920 book

01:05:55.080 you

01:05:55.180 can

01:05:55.220 get

01:05:55.340 on

01:05:55.460 Amazon

01:05:55.820 and

01:05:56.260 otherwise

01:05:56.960 I

01:06:12.400 or

01:06:13.220 all

01:06:13.340 all

01:06:14.240 of

01:06:14.380 them

01:06:14.480 go

01:06:14.640 out

01:06:14.800 at

01:06:14.940 7pm

01:06:15.380 UK

01:06:15.600 time

01:06:15.980 and

01:06:16.220 for

01:06:16.340 those

01:06:16.540 of

01:06:16.660 you

01:06:16.760 who

01:06:16.920 like

01:06:17.120 your

01:06:17.280 trigonometry

01:06:17.820 on

01:06:18.300 the

01:06:18.440 go

01:06:18.740 it's

01:06:19.340 also

01:06:19.600 available

01:06:19.980 as

01:06:20.200 a

01:06:20.320 podcast

01:06:20.860 take

01:06:21.480 care

01:06:21.800 and

01:06:22.320 see

01:06:22.560 you

01:06:22.700 soon

01:06:22.940 guys

01:06:23.340 nowadays

01:06:25.740 we

01:06:26.580 do

01:06:26.800 seem

01:06:27.080 more

01:06:27.300 risk

01:06:27.580 averse 0.66

01:06:28.040 and

01:06:28.280 we

01:06:28.420 seem

01:06:28.600 to

01:06:28.740 be

01:06:28.880 less

01:06:29.140 innovative

01:06:29.660 is

01:06:30.520 this

01:06:30.700 due

01:06:30.880 to

01:06:31.040 changes

01:06:31.380 in

01:06:31.600 society

01:06:32.200 family

01:06:32.980 education

01:06:33.740 child

01:06:34.180 rearing

01:06:34.540 and

01:06:34.880 also

01:06:35.180 the

01:06:35.560 loss

01:06:35.800 of

01:06:35.940 religious

01:06:36.260 faith

TRIGGERnometry - October 17, 2022

＂The West Has Lost Its Confidence＂ - Frank Furedi

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript