TRIGGERnometry - ＂There is No Genocide, No Apartheid, No Occupation＂

00:00:00.720 Is a two-state solution, is that even possible?

00:00:03.360 I've heard some people referring to it as the two-state delusion.

00:00:07.020 And until we deal with indoctrination and with incentivization to terror,

00:00:11.540 I would also agree that there is nothing to talk about in the context of this empty phrase.

00:00:16.840 The context for the use of both genocide, apartheid, and many other terms that have a legal origin,

00:00:25.120 but no legal basis in terms of their application to Israel.

00:00:28.400 The use of the term genocide is unbelievably pernicious.

00:00:33.680 Their military tactic of using civilians as human shields to drive up the civilian casualty count,

00:00:39.960 which forms part of their overall strategy of using public opinion and pressure on Israel

00:00:44.700 to try and achieve its aim of survival.

00:00:47.380 This doesn't happen overnight.

00:00:49.220 It is as a result of generations of brainwashing,

00:00:51.960 and I say that the international community is complicit in it.

00:00:56.240 Natasha, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:00:57.840 We've got a lot to talk about.

00:00:59.460 You've been one of the people giving legal context on many of the discussions around Israel and Palestine

00:01:05.320 over the last many months.

00:01:08.000 And what we really wanted to do with you is just to kind of ask you the normal person's question about...

00:01:15.320 Because, you know, most people are just like,

00:01:16.600 they look at their phone or they turn on the TV for 20 minutes at the end of the day,

00:01:20.440 and they, you know, genocide, apartheid, like all of these linguistic terms.

00:01:24.220 And no one really knows what they mean, and some people are using it,

00:01:27.360 and some people are saying that's not what's happening.

00:01:30.100 So first and foremost, can you talk to us about the genocide conversation that's being had,

00:01:35.380 and what your perspective as a lawyer is on all of that?

00:01:37.860 I think the first thing to understand is the context for the use of both genocide, apartheid,

00:01:43.760 and many other terms that have a legal origin,

00:01:47.620 but no legal basis in terms of their application to Israel.

00:01:51.520 I'd say no legal or factual basis.

00:01:53.300 And the reasons that these terms are being deployed.

00:01:57.040 I've talked about this in other contexts as the modern blood libel.

00:02:01.120 So if you think about scholars who talked about the evolution of anti-Semitism,

00:02:07.420 something that started in the Middle Ages with a focus on the Jews as a religion evolved.

00:02:13.560 And when science took over from religion as the order of the day,

00:02:17.200 the hatred of the Jews, anti-Semitism,

00:02:19.680 manifested itself in a hatred of the Jewish race.

00:02:21.860 And that was a time when the pseudoscience of eugenics was used in order to justify that hatred.

00:02:28.960 But today, we've moved away from that in the context of international law and human rights being the order of the day.

00:02:37.140 The late, great former chief rabbi of the United Kingdom, Lord Jonathan Sachs,

00:02:42.060 talked about how anti-Semitism today manifests itself in a hatred of the Jewish state

00:02:47.600 in that context of international law and human rights.

00:02:51.220 And what we see with the terms that you've raised is modern blood libels being deployed.

00:02:57.700 So while in the 18th or even before that, you know, in the Middle Ages,

00:03:02.140 Jews were accused of killing Christian children to use their blood for religious rituals.

00:03:08.260 Today, we have these notions of Israel targeting children, which is abhorrently false.

00:03:14.140 We have these notions of genocide being propagated, another blood libel.

00:03:20.200 We can come on to apartheid perhaps in due course.

00:03:23.060 Let's stick with genocide, though, because I hear what you're talking about.

00:03:26.240 I understand why you link it to blood libel and anti-Semitism.

00:03:29.040 But what I'm trying to get at is if I'm an average Gen Z with TikTok and I open my TikTok and I see kids being blown up in Gaza,

00:03:37.480 and then I hear someone saying genocide, and then I see these pictures every day on my TikTok for eight months.

00:03:44.800 You merge those two things together in someone's head who doesn't know much about what's going on.

00:03:50.080 And a fairly reasonable, uneducated, uninformed, but fairly reasonable person might then be like,

00:03:57.040 well, I don't know what genocide means exactly, but it seems like killing lots of people who, by definition, would be innocent if they're kids.

00:04:05.100 So you say that's not what's happening.

00:04:07.320 Can you just explain more of that?

00:04:09.520 In terms of, I'll come back on to the legal definition of the term, because I completely accept what you say,

00:04:14.540 which is that the images that so many people are basing these false conclusions on are horrific,

00:04:20.520 and they need to be understood in their proper context.

00:04:22.640 So this is footage coming out of Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas and is serving a very clear propaganda aim of an internationally prescribed terrorist organization

00:04:33.680 that is abusing its own people and using civilians as human shields and celebrating any civilian casualties in Gaza.

00:04:41.820 So quite apart from the fact that we will not know the story behind the images that you're referring to,

00:04:48.420 simply because Hamas controls Gaza absolutely, and no information that is not approved by Hamas is making it out into the international discourse at the moment.

00:04:59.780 Quite apart from that, the attribution of these horrific images is to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist organizations,

00:05:09.720 because this is their aim.

00:05:11.160 They have, at the moment, only one objective, and that is survival.

00:05:17.240 And the way that they ensure, in their minds, their survival and their ability to continue to threaten Israeli civilians

00:05:24.800 and carry out this threat, specific threat of conducting the 7th of October over and over again,

00:05:31.000 the way that they seek to ensure being able to do that is by driving up international pressure against Israel

00:05:37.180 with these propaganda images and messages.

00:05:40.060 And the use of the term genocide is unbelievably pernicious.

00:05:45.380 This was a term that was coined, in fact, to give terminology to the Jewish experience in the Holocaust,

00:05:50.880 to provide a legal lexicon to describe the targeting of Jews as Jews by the Nazis.

00:05:59.420 The definition of genocide is specific to include the intention to eradicate a group,

00:06:05.820 an ethnic, religious or racial group, in whole or in part.

00:06:09.260 And it's that intention to eradicate part or whole of a group,

00:06:14.140 which is certainly what Israel, well, certainly what the Jews experienced in the Holocaust,

00:06:19.300 certainly what the acts of genocide on the 7th of October were aimed at.

00:06:24.840 Hamas and other terrorists that crossed the border were clear about their intention.

00:06:28.360 And intention is central to the whole concept of the international crime of genocide.

00:06:33.360 That this is now being used as an allegation against Israel is the epitome of a blood libel.

00:06:38.540 It is inverting reality.

00:06:40.300 Is it though, Natasha, sorry to interrupt, but when Piers Morgan was sitting in that very chair only a couple of weeks ago,

00:06:44.980 he said, look, I don't think what Israel is doing is genocide,

00:06:47.200 but there are people in the Israeli government who are using genocidal rhetoric about cleansing Gaza of the Palestinians, etc.

00:06:55.760 Would you not accept that maybe one of the reasons people are sometimes persuaded to that point of view is some of the things that Israeli officials are saying?

00:07:02.580 I think we need to be clear about the quotes that people have deployed to advance that argument.

00:07:08.380 The vast majority have been utterly misrepresented, in particular, those that have been made by any members of the War Cabinet

00:07:14.840 or anyone with an input to policy, including military officials.

00:07:19.040 One of the prime examples of this was the way that South Africa's application to the International Court of Justice,

00:07:25.080 which made this obscene allegation of genocide, was misrepresenting these quotations.

00:07:30.740 For example, suggesting that these Israeli officials were talking about all Palestinians,

00:07:36.480 when it's very clear from the original Hebrew, from the context of which these quotes were taken from,

00:07:41.500 that they are talking about Hamas.

00:07:43.280 And it is entirely legitimate to talk about eradicating Hamas because of the threat that they pose,

00:07:49.060 not just to Israel, of course, but the threat that they also pose to our Western liberal democratic values.

00:07:55.800 I think we have to fundamentally understand that Israel is not just fighting its own war against Islamist extremist groups,

00:08:02.680 but is also fighting on behalf of the West in many respects.

00:08:05.620 But when you take into account the way that both the images, the quotations,

00:08:10.720 and the facts on the ground have been so badly misrepresented,

00:08:14.380 I mean, all of this ultimately feeds into what we have seen in terms of this blood libel taking hold.

00:08:19.600 And I agree with you, Konstantin, it is extremely effective.

00:08:25.020 And it is based not just on what we've seen over the last eight months, nine months now,

00:08:29.960 but on decades of anti-Israel propaganda.

00:08:34.760 Already in 1975, we had the United Nations passing that infamous Zionism is racism resolution.

00:08:41.920 We have had deeply ingrained anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist propaganda pervasive throughout the Middle East,

00:08:49.800 throughout the Soviet Union, of course, in the past,

00:08:52.860 and now increasingly on our television screens on a daily basis because of the tragedy that is unfolding in the Gaza Strip,

00:08:59.880 a tragedy that I have to insist and reiterate,

00:09:04.060 is ultimately fully, wholly, entirely the responsibility of Hamas and their apologists around the world.

00:09:10.960 And if we unpack that for just one moment,

00:09:13.900 we need to come to terms with the international community's responsibility

00:09:18.800 for what we have seen on the 7th of October and subsequent.

00:09:23.200 Because 3,000 terrorists don't just wake up one morning and decide that it's a good day to slaughter Jews.

00:09:30.380 It takes something extra special to brainwash thousands of people

00:09:37.040 to commit the sort of atrocities that we saw on the 7th of October.

00:09:40.360 And I know that you've had previous, you know, apologists for Hamas on with you

00:09:46.080 who've denied rape that occurred, who've denied what was not only celebrated by Hamas

00:09:53.960 and documented by them, but also transmitted around the world,

00:09:58.820 sometimes live-streamed from the very victims' phones

00:10:03.340 who were suffering these unspeakable atrocities.

00:10:08.460 But what is it, I think we have to ask ourselves,

00:10:11.060 that causes people to be capable of such medieval barbarism?

00:10:15.700 This doesn't happen overnight.

00:10:17.340 It is as a result of generations of brainwashing.

00:10:20.280 And I say that the international community is complicit in it

00:10:23.360 because we have been funding UNRWA.

00:10:25.560 UNRWA and three-quarters of those terrorists, according to UNRWA statistics,

00:10:29.820 the UN statistics...

00:10:30.120 Can I just stop you there?

00:10:31.060 Because there'll be people listening who go,

00:10:32.740 I don't know what UNRWA is, what is this?

00:10:34.660 So if you could just explain that for the layman, and by layman I mean me.

00:10:38.300 The UN Relief and Works Agency is a special body that was set up.

00:10:42.940 In fact, if you read the book that Inat Wilf and Ali Schwartz wrote

00:10:46.240 called The War of Return, it is a seminal piece of work that documents

00:10:50.500 how and why UNRWA was established and with what motivation, what the aims were.

00:10:57.920 Essentially, it was established to perpetuate this phenomenon of refugee status

00:11:03.100 amongst Palestinians uniquely, that it is passed down generation to generation.

00:11:07.960 So there is a general UN body that looks after refugees all around the world.

00:11:12.340 And then separately, there is UNRWA, and they run schools

00:11:16.320 that teach the Palestinian Authority-approved curriculum.

00:11:20.460 From kindergarten up, these children have been indoctrinated to believe

00:11:25.120 that the highest calling in life is to become a martyr

00:11:27.720 and to kill as many Jews as possible.

00:11:29.680 Are you saying they teach this in their schools?

00:11:31.680 I do. And that is well documented by NGOs.

00:11:34.140 Impact SE has done many, many studies of textbooks.

00:11:37.500 It's been recognised by governments around the world.

00:11:39.800 Now, some of these textbooks existed elsewhere in the Arab world.

00:11:43.500 Saudi Arabia has done a phenomenal amount of work to de-radicalise

00:11:47.220 and to address and entirely reform the content in its textbooks.

00:11:51.700 But you will have a Palestinian Authority-approved curricula

00:11:55.660 taught in UN-run schools that teaches mathematics

00:11:58.940 according to how many Jews are killed, you know, plus a few more,

00:12:03.780 or teachers' physics according to how a slingshot might be used

00:12:08.100 to fire rocks or stones at Israelis.

00:12:11.400 I mean, that is pervasive.

00:12:13.660 Not only that, they celebrate the so-called martyrs,

00:12:16.900 they name football teams after them, schools even.

00:12:20.120 So if you are familiar with what has been happening over many decades now,

00:12:24.260 then the atrocities of the 7th of October and what happened,

00:12:29.260 albeit shocking that 3,000 terrorists managed to break Israeli defences

00:12:35.080 and cross the borders, the repercussions of that,

00:12:38.440 what followed has been in no way surprising.

00:12:41.540 Because those of us that were alive to these issues

00:12:43.960 had our eyes open not just to the textbooks and what is taught in schools

00:12:48.100 or on television, children's programmes or the nursery rhymes and songs

00:12:53.600 or what has been found now in the context of these operations in Gaza in homes,

00:12:59.160 quite apart from the many, many copies of Mein Kampf,

00:13:02.400 board games that talk about attacking Israelis,

00:13:06.900 you know, children's books, nursery rhymes.

00:13:09.980 It is a whole culture that has been developed

00:13:12.620 to underpin what happened on the 7th of October.

00:13:15.940 And the only reason that that hasn't happened prior

00:13:19.480 is because of the very stringent security measures that Israel has taken.

00:13:24.140 And there are many, many who criticise a lax approach,

00:13:28.680 an over-degree of confidence,

00:13:30.340 even a naivety by the government of Israel

00:13:33.680 to believe that Hamas might have put aside its genocidal aims

00:13:38.180 because they didn't participate in barrages of rockets in 2021

00:13:42.920 that were in fact fired by a separate Palestinian terrorist organisation,

00:13:47.620 Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

00:13:49.420 They were fired from Gaza into Israel, onto Israeli civilian communities.

00:13:53.420 That was the last major exchange between Gaza and Israel.

00:13:57.580 Hamas didn't engage.

00:13:59.060 And there were many in Israel that thought,

00:14:00.680 oh, well, maybe they've ordered their priorities differently.

00:14:04.260 Maybe now they are finally looking at state building.

00:14:06.860 They are finally looking at the interests of their people.

00:14:09.520 Well, in the context of what has followed,

00:14:12.260 that was devastatingly naive

00:14:14.280 because Hamas, from the very inception of their charter,

00:14:18.460 have had their genocidal aims on full display for the world to see.

00:14:23.000 These are not in any way hidden.

00:14:25.340 On the contrary, these are celebrated.

00:14:27.920 And in that context,

00:14:29.600 when you understand the educational aspects,

00:14:32.980 the indoctrination,

00:14:34.460 and also separately,

00:14:35.740 and this is the other major factor to take into account,

00:14:37.880 the incentivisation to terror,

00:14:40.900 then I think everything starts to make an awful lot more sense.

00:14:44.280 And what I mean when I say incentivisation

00:14:46.280 is the terror salaries that are paid

00:14:48.880 by the so-called moderates in this equation,

00:14:51.520 the Palestinian Authority.

00:14:52.960 So this is the autonomy that governs the West Bank,

00:14:56.920 because it's important to understand

00:14:57.900 that the Palestinians have autonomy.

00:14:59.820 We can come on to the separate blood libel of occupation

00:15:03.880 and why that is entirely false.

00:15:05.420 But as a matter of fact,

00:15:07.680 the Palestinians have autonomy in the West Bank

00:15:09.820 since the Oslo Accords in the 90s,

00:15:12.360 and they have self-governance in the Gaza Strip

00:15:14.780 since Israel's withdrawal in 2005.

00:15:17.700 But the Palestinian Authority,

00:15:19.760 that so many people now are touting

00:15:21.780 as the potential future rulers of Gaza,

00:15:24.260 that are presented as the moderates in this equation,

00:15:27.300 they pay the salaries of terrorists,

00:15:31.480 no matter what banner they coalesce under,

00:15:33.920 including the Hamas terrorists,

00:15:35.980 the Nuchba force,

00:15:37.560 individuals who planned and executed the 7th of October.

00:15:41.340 They pay the salaries of these terrorists

00:15:43.680 dependent on how many Jews they have slaughtered,

00:15:46.180 dependent on the severity of their sentence.

00:15:48.240 And the organisers of the 7th of October,

00:15:52.200 some of whom were released in the 2011 Gilad Shalit deal,

00:15:56.160 Ali Kadhi included,

00:15:57.920 by all accounts planned for two years

00:16:00.660 what was executed on the 7th of October

00:16:03.480 while he was collecting a monthly stipend.

00:16:06.120 He didn't have to work.

00:16:07.220 He was looked after by the Palestinian Authority

00:16:09.320 and went through the meticulous planning process.

00:16:12.520 So when you start to understand

00:16:14.280 the indoctrination and the incentivisation to terror,

00:16:18.060 the two eyes, if you will,

00:16:19.580 let's call them the two eyes,

00:16:21.920 which are critical to everything

00:16:24.520 that we have seen over the last nine months,

00:16:26.840 critical to understanding the situation on the ground,

00:16:29.820 but also where it is

00:16:31.660 that people are having the wall pulled over their eyes

00:16:33.620 when they look at these horrific images

00:16:35.160 coming out of Gaza

00:16:36.020 and they don't understand the context.

00:16:38.640 Another aspect of that context

00:16:40.360 when we talk about the images,

00:16:42.560 is Hamas,

00:16:44.400 I mentioned that they use civilians as human shields.

00:16:47.060 They use, of course,

00:16:48.420 mosques, schools, hospitals,

00:16:50.660 and by all accounts,

00:16:51.960 every second house in the Gaza Strip

00:16:54.080 as part of their terror infrastructure.

00:16:56.280 So when you hear people talking

00:16:57.680 about the widespread destruction in Gaza,

00:17:00.080 there is a reason for that.

00:17:02.520 And that is because

00:17:03.600 all of Gaza over 16 years

00:17:05.920 had been turned into a terror base for Hamas.

00:17:08.960 The thousands, if not hundreds of kilometers

00:17:11.680 of terror tunnels that they have built,

00:17:13.540 which, of course,

00:17:14.300 they do not use to protect civilians.

00:17:16.920 They put their forces in the terror tunnels

00:17:18.660 and their civilians on top of them

00:17:19.980 to protect their terror infrastructure.

00:17:22.220 But when you consider how widespread

00:17:25.060 the Hamas terror infrastructure is in the Gaza Strip,

00:17:28.940 you start to see those photographs

00:17:30.740 in a bit of a different context.

00:17:32.740 But why is it important, then,

00:17:34.820 that Israel waited for so long

00:17:37.640 after the 7th of October

00:17:39.120 before going into Gaza?

00:17:40.760 Why is it important that it has taken

00:17:43.160 this war in stages,

00:17:45.420 that it has moved so slowly and meticulously?

00:17:48.220 Because it has afforded the opportunity

00:17:49.980 for as many civilians as possible

00:17:51.660 to evacuate these areas,

00:17:54.080 which had to be targeted

00:17:55.440 because they are the terror infrastructure of Hamas.

00:17:59.680 We've heard people talking about

00:18:01.520 how impossible it is in the context

00:18:03.340 just before Israel began the Rafa operation,

00:18:06.560 how impossible it was

00:18:07.600 to afford these civilians an opportunity to move.

00:18:12.080 Many of them had already moved before.

00:18:14.820 Well, about a million of them

00:18:16.500 were successfully moved

00:18:18.720 or assisted with moving

00:18:20.160 away from that new location

00:18:23.140 of intense fighting between Israel

00:18:25.060 and the terrorist forces, terrorist army.

00:18:28.560 I think it's important that we understand

00:18:30.500 that the battalions and brigades

00:18:32.440 that Hamas has established

00:18:34.580 within this terror statelet

00:18:36.980 that Israel is engaged in fighting with,

00:18:39.520 doing its utmost at every stage

00:18:41.760 to prevent civilian casualties

00:18:43.300 and, as we see very tragically,

00:18:45.320 losing soldiers in the process.

00:18:46.980 It is sacrificing its own

00:18:49.180 in order to try and minimise harm

00:18:52.360 to Palestinian civilians.

00:18:54.220 Otherwise, this war would have been over

00:18:55.420 a long time ago.

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00:19:29.240 What do you say to those people?

00:19:30.720 Because I remember I went on social media

00:19:32.840 a couple of weeks ago,

00:19:34.860 and maybe a little bit longer than that,

00:19:36.440 and it seemed on Instagram

00:19:38.180 every other post on a story

00:19:40.080 was talking about Rafa,

00:19:41.860 the refugee camps,

00:19:43.240 raising awareness.

00:19:45.380 What is going on in Rafa?

00:19:47.260 And because there will be people

00:19:49.280 arguing that that is a refugee camp,

00:19:51.460 and by bombing it,

00:19:52.560 that is a war crime.

00:19:54.580 What you have to understand

00:19:55.480 is the terminology of a refugee camp here

00:19:57.540 is also deeply misleading.

00:19:59.080 These are towns

00:20:00.080 that have been established.

00:20:02.220 They still carry that term

00:20:04.340 for historical reasons.

00:20:06.460 So firstly,

00:20:07.500 we're not talking about

00:20:08.720 tent cities here.

00:20:10.880 Where we are talking about

00:20:12.940 tent encampments

00:20:14.640 as a result of civilians

00:20:16.320 having been evacuated,

00:20:17.760 unfortunately,

00:20:18.160 we also have footage

00:20:19.580 of terrorists

00:20:20.940 spying from within

00:20:21.980 those supposedly

00:20:23.300 safe areas also.

00:20:25.540 But this idea

00:20:27.100 that the world

00:20:29.000 seemed to support Israel

00:20:30.400 in the first few weeks

00:20:31.380 of this war

00:20:31.940 understood Israel's

00:20:33.500 war objectives,

00:20:34.160 which were

00:20:34.880 to defeat Hamas,

00:20:37.160 prevent them from ever

00:20:38.180 posing a threat

00:20:39.140 as they did on the 7th of October

00:20:40.620 again,

00:20:41.120 and recover the hostages.

00:20:42.860 And while those aims

00:20:44.680 seemed to carry,

00:20:46.180 garner international support

00:20:47.980 at the outset,

00:20:49.020 the moment it came to Rafa,

00:20:51.460 those aims were thrown

00:20:52.680 out of the window.

00:20:53.740 This notion

00:20:54.640 that Hamas could be defeated

00:20:56.100 without Israel

00:20:57.020 going into Rafa

00:20:58.420 as it had done

00:20:59.160 with other parts

00:20:59.800 of the Gaza Strip

00:21:00.700 was simply nonsensical.

00:21:03.740 So I think,

00:21:04.640 again,

00:21:05.000 you've got logic

00:21:06.020 and facts

00:21:07.100 been left behind

00:21:08.660 and people

00:21:09.740 feeling under

00:21:10.500 increasing pressure

00:21:11.340 if we're talking

00:21:11.800 about policy makers

00:21:12.880 to adopt

00:21:14.120 this propaganda

00:21:15.240 narrative,

00:21:16.300 these falsehoods,

00:21:17.660 which in the context

00:21:19.520 as I've described

00:21:20.420 of, you know,

00:21:21.680 decades

00:21:22.340 of the groundwork

00:21:24.060 being laid for this,

00:21:25.680 of this being

00:21:26.180 essentially

00:21:26.820 the oldest hatred

00:21:27.700 in the world

00:21:28.360 in a modern

00:21:29.400 manifestation,

00:21:31.120 the new acceptable

00:21:32.040 face of anti-Semitism.

00:21:33.240 I mean,

00:21:33.380 that underpins

00:21:34.420 why you've got

00:21:35.860 I think so many people

00:21:37.180 taking leave

00:21:37.680 of their senses.

00:21:39.160 When you actually

00:21:39.680 listen to the experts here

00:21:41.220 and actually Rafa

00:21:42.180 is a case in point,

00:21:43.320 John Spencer,

00:21:44.660 who is the head

00:21:45.960 of Urban Armed Conflict

00:21:47.280 at West Point,

00:21:48.800 has written

00:21:49.440 and spoken extensively

00:21:50.720 about the measures

00:21:51.520 that Israel has taken,

00:21:52.700 including in Rafa,

00:21:54.160 to prevent

00:21:54.680 civilian casualties.

00:21:56.400 Now he talks about it

00:21:57.560 from the perspective

00:21:58.260 of a professional soldier

00:22:00.240 and he's also been embedded

00:22:01.680 with the IDF

00:22:02.660 on the ground in Gaza.

00:22:04.180 But if you step back

00:22:05.200 from that,

00:22:05.860 and, you know,

00:22:06.500 I'm not a professional soldier

00:22:08.100 but I am a lawyer

00:22:08.880 and I have dealt

00:22:11.100 with the law

00:22:11.860 of armed conflict

00:22:12.900 for many a year,

00:22:15.180 there are key rules

00:22:16.660 of international law

00:22:18.220 that govern

00:22:18.960 how armies

00:22:19.960 conduct their operations,

00:22:21.520 including in Rafa.

00:22:23.260 Amongst them,

00:22:24.100 the key principles

00:22:24.980 are necessity,

00:22:27.420 distinction,

00:22:28.800 proportionality

00:22:29.600 and precaution.

00:22:31.300 And what we see

00:22:32.980 in terms of

00:22:33.460 the misrepresentations,

00:22:34.440 I'm afraid,

00:22:35.100 is both the factual

00:22:35.920 situation on the ground

00:22:37.060 being misrepresented

00:22:39.800 but also the applicable law.

00:22:42.000 A case in point

00:22:42.800 is the principle

00:22:43.600 of proportionality.

00:22:45.180 It is perhaps

00:22:45.840 the most misrepresented,

00:22:48.580 or indeed misunderstood,

00:22:49.920 aspect of international law,

00:22:51.820 period.

00:22:52.940 And proportionality

00:22:53.680 is not about

00:22:54.540 totting up casualty figures.

00:22:56.600 It is not about

00:22:57.320 comparing figures

00:22:58.760 on both sides.

00:22:59.700 That would be

00:23:00.280 utterly macabre.

00:23:01.780 It's not how

00:23:02.300 international law works

00:23:03.260 but also

00:23:03.820 it would simply

00:23:04.920 incentivize Hamas

00:23:05.900 to continue

00:23:06.580 their tactic,

00:23:10.200 their military tactic

00:23:11.500 of using civilians

00:23:13.160 as human shields

00:23:13.860 to drive up

00:23:15.240 the civilian casualty count

00:23:16.380 which forms part

00:23:17.000 of their overall strategy

00:23:18.060 of using public opinion

00:23:20.000 and pressure on Israel

00:23:21.260 to try and achieve

00:23:22.320 its aim of survival.

00:23:23.200 But when you consider

00:23:25.020 what proportionality

00:23:25.840 actually means

00:23:26.720 in international law

00:23:27.760 which is a requirement

00:23:29.080 on the individual

00:23:30.420 military commander

00:23:31.420 to conduct

00:23:32.500 a balancing exercise

00:23:33.860 to weigh up

00:23:35.080 the anticipated

00:23:36.440 military advantage

00:23:38.380 of a strike,

00:23:39.300 a strike that is necessary

00:23:40.740 and that also distinguishes

00:23:42.360 between civilians

00:23:43.160 and combatants,

00:23:44.580 to weigh up

00:23:45.320 the anticipated

00:23:46.120 military advantage

00:23:47.280 of a strike

00:23:47.860 against the expected

00:23:49.020 civilian

00:23:49.700 or collateral damage.

00:23:51.220 Now there's no

00:23:51.780 strict formula for that.

00:23:53.200 It will vary

00:23:54.140 on a case-by-case basis

00:23:55.420 but the idea

00:23:56.540 that anyone

00:23:57.200 outside of that

00:23:59.140 calculation process

00:24:00.660 who does not know

00:24:02.020 the significance

00:24:02.760 of whatever target

00:24:04.060 was the subject

00:24:05.180 of a strike,

00:24:06.120 who does not know

00:24:07.040 even the numbers

00:24:08.040 in terms of

00:24:08.980 real casualty figures

00:24:10.300 that came out,

00:24:11.180 the idea that anyone

00:24:12.060 on YouTube

00:24:13.900 or, you know,

00:24:14.980 a podcaster

00:24:15.680 or on social media

00:24:17.740 can determine

00:24:18.600 whether or not

00:24:19.740 the principle

00:24:20.260 of proportionality

00:24:21.220 has been upheld

00:24:22.320 is ludicrous

00:24:23.760 and legally illiterate.

00:24:26.000 Ultimately,

00:24:27.240 those that know

00:24:28.300 how the Israeli

00:24:29.080 defence forces work

00:24:30.160 and know what role

00:24:31.420 military lawyers play

00:24:32.900 understand the importance

00:24:34.500 that Israel places,

00:24:36.100 not just on upholding

00:24:37.440 international law

00:24:38.180 but I have to stress

00:24:39.300 also going way above

00:24:40.960 the requirements

00:24:41.620 of the laws of armed conflict

00:24:42.840 and other military

00:24:43.980 professionals

00:24:44.420 in other armies

00:24:45.400 will frequently say,

00:24:47.480 you know,

00:24:47.740 the British army,

00:24:48.680 we wouldn't be

00:24:49.820 in a position

00:24:50.320 to uphold

00:24:50.800 the standards

00:24:51.320 that Israel is

00:24:52.120 in this unprecedented

00:24:53.820 military context,

00:24:57.180 you know,

00:24:57.340 urban armed conflict

00:24:58.180 where their enemy

00:24:59.420 has spent 16 years

00:25:00.620 embedding themselves

00:25:01.280 in civilian infrastructure.

00:25:02.680 That is unprecedented.

00:25:04.360 And the way

00:25:05.120 that Israel weighs up

00:25:06.480 these delicate exercises

00:25:08.460 and has banks

00:25:10.540 of targets

00:25:11.200 approved by the

00:25:12.020 military advocate

00:25:12.620 general corps,

00:25:13.280 the army lawyers

00:25:14.140 in advance,

00:25:15.260 is critical

00:25:16.000 to the way

00:25:16.700 any law-abiding

00:25:17.720 state and army

00:25:19.180 needs to conduct

00:25:20.140 its armed conflict.

00:25:21.380 But Israel goes

00:25:22.080 even above that

00:25:22.920 because it issues

00:25:24.720 warnings of strikes

00:25:26.040 before these happen.

00:25:28.140 These are warnings

00:25:28.720 that of course

00:25:29.360 give Hamas

00:25:29.940 the opportunity

00:25:30.560 to ready themselves

00:25:32.400 as well as civilians

00:25:33.520 the opportunity

00:25:34.200 to escape.

00:25:35.660 These are warnings

00:25:36.320 delivered by loudspeaker,

00:25:38.920 by text message

00:25:39.940 to individual householders,

00:25:41.520 by phone calls,

00:25:42.760 by leaflets,

00:25:44.020 by setting up

00:25:44.700 humanitarian corridors,

00:25:46.000 with indications

00:25:46.880 of where civilians

00:25:47.980 should flee through.

00:25:50.100 Now all of that

00:25:51.280 does take

00:25:52.180 the principle

00:25:53.160 of precaution

00:25:53.820 that Israel

00:25:54.320 is adopting

00:25:55.920 to I think

00:25:57.000 unprecedented levels

00:25:58.140 in the history

00:25:58.680 of armed conflict.

00:25:59.900 But the flip side

00:26:00.740 of it is

00:26:01.180 what is Hamas doing

00:26:02.140 in this context?

00:26:03.380 Despite these

00:26:04.600 unprecedented measures

00:26:05.520 that Israel is taking,

00:26:06.840 we have reports

00:26:07.740 of Hamas

00:26:08.340 shooting civilians

00:26:09.740 as they sought

00:26:10.580 to flee

00:26:11.160 according to these

00:26:12.460 instructions

00:26:12.960 right at the start

00:26:14.000 of this war.

00:26:14.740 We've had reports

00:26:15.680 of them bombing,

00:26:17.160 fleeing convoys

00:26:18.180 of civilians.

00:26:19.480 And when we come

00:26:20.120 to think about

00:26:20.820 the images

00:26:21.440 that you have rightly raised

00:26:23.260 and these casualty figures

00:26:25.340 which are being touted

00:26:26.600 around the world,

00:26:27.460 this is an important

00:26:28.300 matter of context,

00:26:30.560 factual input

00:26:31.340 to take into consideration

00:26:32.460 because those images

00:26:33.900 and these

00:26:34.880 propaganda,

00:26:36.660 Hamas propaganda

00:26:37.300 casualty figures

00:26:38.160 that are being

00:26:38.760 circulated

00:26:40.300 without qualification,

00:26:41.880 they don't provide

00:26:43.040 the context.

00:26:43.640 They don't tell you

00:26:44.740 how many civilians

00:26:46.080 and how many combatants

00:26:47.240 out of those total numbers.

00:26:48.920 They also don't tell you

00:26:49.780 how these civilians

00:26:50.620 or combatants

00:26:51.860 are said to have been killed

00:26:53.180 and how many of them

00:26:54.360 have been shot

00:26:54.960 by Hamas

00:26:55.640 or how many of them

00:26:56.800 have been killed

00:26:57.580 by Hamas

00:26:58.760 or Palestinian Islamic

00:26:59.880 Jihad rockets

00:27:00.740 that fall short

00:27:01.780 in the Gaza Strip

00:27:02.640 killing civilians

00:27:04.120 indiscriminately

00:27:04.760 because unlike

00:27:05.620 the targeted strikes

00:27:06.900 that Israel conducts

00:27:08.140 which is subject

00:27:08.700 to that proportionality analysis

00:27:10.260 and subject to distinction,

00:27:13.120 precaution,

00:27:14.180 military necessity,

00:27:16.900 Hamas's rockets

00:27:17.560 fall indiscriminately.

00:27:19.000 They kill civilians,

00:27:19.900 they kill aid workers.

00:27:21.520 More recently,

00:27:22.360 Fatah,

00:27:23.100 the Palestinian authority

00:27:24.740 in the West Bank,

00:27:25.700 again the so-called

00:27:26.200 moderates in this equation,

00:27:27.080 have accused Hamas

00:27:28.200 of deliberately

00:27:28.960 shooting aid workers

00:27:30.240 in order to manufacture

00:27:31.880 a humanitarian crisis

00:27:33.420 in Gaza.

00:27:34.640 They have also,

00:27:36.180 Hamas has now

00:27:37.660 in the last few weeks

00:27:38.680 been videoed

00:27:39.920 attacking civilians

00:27:41.780 who are seeking

00:27:42.780 either to access aid

00:27:46.300 or even distribute it.

00:27:48.560 So one of the other

00:27:49.460 massive canards here

00:27:50.780 is that Israel

00:27:51.300 is restricting

00:27:51.980 humanitarian assistance

00:27:53.400 into the Gaza Strip.

00:27:54.620 I mean,

00:27:54.800 you just need to look

00:27:55.720 at the stats

00:27:57.000 that are put out

00:27:57.880 by Kogat.

00:27:59.060 Kogat is the unit

00:28:00.140 of the Israeli

00:28:00.640 defence forces

00:28:01.460 that is responsible

00:28:02.700 for the provision

00:28:03.680 of the civilian communities

00:28:06.560 in any armed conflict.

00:28:08.640 Natasha,

00:28:09.080 so I suppose

00:28:10.520 the next question

00:28:11.360 for me is

00:28:12.320 when you fight a war

00:28:14.300 there are various

00:28:14.980 aspects to war.

00:28:16.880 There's obviously

00:28:17.440 the conflict

00:28:17.940 but there's also

00:28:18.540 the propaganda war,

00:28:20.020 the perceptions

00:28:20.640 of both

00:28:21.340 of the participants

00:28:22.880 in the war.

00:28:23.940 Do you think

00:28:25.000 that Israel

00:28:26.400 is losing

00:28:27.000 the propaganda war?

00:28:28.120 I don't think

00:28:30.420 that's a difficult

00:28:30.880 question to answer

00:28:31.500 at all.

00:28:32.440 I mean,

00:28:32.660 you just need

00:28:33.060 to look at

00:28:33.600 how public opinion

00:28:34.620 has embraced

00:28:36.980 wholly

00:28:37.440 the narrative

00:28:39.360 of the terrorists

00:28:40.820 here.

00:28:41.620 No,

00:28:41.800 absolutely.

00:28:42.360 And I was interviewed

00:28:44.140 very early on,

00:28:45.620 I think even

00:28:46.120 on the 8th of October

00:28:49.000 when the world

00:28:51.940 was seemingly

00:28:52.960 with Israel

00:28:53.560 and I said

00:28:55.520 to the Sky

00:28:56.820 presenter,

00:28:57.420 remember this time

00:28:58.360 because it won't

00:28:59.740 last long

00:29:00.320 and at some point

00:29:02.460 in the not too

00:29:03.420 distant future

00:29:04.280 the propaganda

00:29:05.920 narrative will

00:29:06.700 have taken over

00:29:07.520 and we will

00:29:08.860 have forgotten

00:29:09.460 not just how

00:29:10.960 this recent

00:29:12.640 war began

00:29:13.420 but also

00:29:14.860 the 76 years

00:29:17.400 that came

00:29:17.840 before it

00:29:18.560 because the 7th

00:29:20.220 of October

00:29:20.700 wasn't new.

00:29:23.220 This is

00:29:23.600 just the latest

00:29:25.120 in a long line

00:29:26.540 of genocidal acts

00:29:27.700 that were committed

00:29:28.220 against Jews

00:29:28.880 in the Middle East

00:29:30.220 even before

00:29:30.840 the establishment

00:29:31.500 of the State of Israel,

00:29:33.020 the Hebron Massacre

00:29:34.320 in 1929.

00:29:36.900 I mean,

00:29:37.040 there was no

00:29:38.140 propaganda narrative

00:29:41.260 then on,

00:29:42.880 you know,

00:29:43.480 there being

00:29:44.120 an opposition

00:29:44.900 to the existence

00:29:45.580 of Israel.

00:29:46.280 No, Jews have been

00:29:46.920 killed because they are

00:29:47.660 Jews for thousands

00:29:49.840 of years.

00:29:51.240 But of course

00:29:52.240 all of that

00:29:52.840 has been eradicated

00:29:54.320 by what we have

00:29:55.680 seen in terms

00:29:57.140 of the social media

00:29:57.840 discussions,

00:29:58.740 in terms of,

00:29:59.880 you know,

00:30:00.140 the Al Jazeera narrative

00:30:01.320 which has been

00:30:02.660 circulated as though

00:30:04.640 it is a responsible

00:30:05.700 news agency,

00:30:06.620 without regard

00:30:08.160 for the fact

00:30:08.680 that it is

00:30:09.100 the Hamas

00:30:09.820 propaganda arm.

00:30:12.300 So undoubtedly,

00:30:13.160 yes,

00:30:13.580 that propaganda

00:30:14.280 law at war,

00:30:15.740 forgive me,

00:30:16.360 has indeed,

00:30:18.060 I think,

00:30:18.560 already been lost.

00:30:19.280 But that's not

00:30:19.700 to say

00:30:20.280 that those of us

00:30:21.580 that know better

00:30:22.260 shouldn't continue

00:30:23.220 to be standing up

00:30:24.100 for the truth

00:30:25.100 and the reality

00:30:25.960 and seeking to do

00:30:27.520 our utmost

00:30:28.060 to educate

00:30:28.880 against that

00:30:29.760 very propaganda.

00:30:30.480 Do you think

00:30:31.180 one of the reasons

00:30:31.900 if we follow

00:30:32.820 the logic

00:30:33.320 of everything

00:30:33.860 you're saying,

00:30:34.460 let's just,

00:30:34.880 for the sake

00:30:35.220 of argument

00:30:35.620 as we do

00:30:36.000 with all our guests

00:30:36.640 to interrogate

00:30:37.980 the argument

00:30:38.440 and assume

00:30:38.820 everything you're

00:30:39.320 saying is true,

00:30:40.320 part of the problem

00:30:41.240 I see is

00:30:42.020 the logic

00:30:42.880 of what you're

00:30:43.340 saying is this,

00:30:44.640 Gaza is run

00:30:46.080 by Hamas,

00:30:46.640 Hamas are terrorists,

00:30:47.540 they've spent 16

00:30:48.720 years building up

00:30:49.600 terrorist infrastructure

00:30:50.460 everywhere,

00:30:51.220 they've made it

00:30:52.080 essentially so that

00:30:53.040 the entire area

00:30:54.520 of Gaza

00:30:55.140 is a terrorist base,

00:30:57.100 every mosque,

00:30:57.720 every hospital,

00:30:58.640 every area,

00:30:59.980 every tunnel

00:31:00.520 can be and is

00:31:01.660 being used for that.

00:31:03.420 The logical

00:31:04.320 conclusion of that,

00:31:05.860 following international

00:31:06.840 law,

00:31:07.660 proportionality

00:31:08.440 and all the rest

00:31:09.040 of it,

00:31:09.680 Israel is going

00:31:10.280 to have to

00:31:10.640 flatten all of Gaza

00:31:11.520 and some people

00:31:13.940 would say

00:31:14.340 is flattening

00:31:15.240 all of Gaza

00:31:15.800 because they have

00:31:17.540 the objective

00:31:18.340 of eliminating Hamas

00:31:19.640 but if Hamas

00:31:20.240 controls everything

00:31:21.040 and is using

00:31:21.600 every facility

00:31:22.340 in Gaza

00:31:22.740 to do so,

00:31:23.860 the inevitable

00:31:24.400 consequence is

00:31:25.400 you're going

00:31:26.000 to have no buildings

00:31:26.780 left,

00:31:27.460 you're just

00:31:27.700 going to have

00:31:27.980 rubble

00:31:28.380 and millions

00:31:29.240 of people

00:31:29.720 displaced

00:31:30.500 and however

00:31:31.620 proportional or

00:31:32.760 appropriate that

00:31:33.560 might be in the

00:31:34.500 context of whatever,

00:31:36.700 it's kind of hard

00:31:37.240 to win a propaganda

00:31:38.020 war on that basis

00:31:38.840 if your objective

00:31:39.520 is to flatten

00:31:40.120 an entire area

00:31:41.340 and move it

00:31:41.960 to all the people

00:31:42.920 there nowhere

00:31:44.020 because they're

00:31:44.520 not being allowed

00:31:45.120 into Egypt

00:31:45.680 or into

00:31:46.080 neighboring countries.

00:31:48.000 Well,

00:31:48.040 I'm not suggesting

00:31:48.540 that Israel

00:31:48.900 should be winning

00:31:49.460 a propaganda war

00:31:50.220 here.

00:31:50.580 I'm saying

00:31:50.940 that we need

00:31:51.320 to defeat

00:31:51.840 the propaganda

00:31:52.840 war that is

00:31:53.400 subverting

00:31:54.200 what I'm saying

00:31:54.940 is I don't

00:31:55.480 see how

00:31:55.900 if we're

00:31:56.960 following the

00:31:57.440 logic of what

00:31:57.960 you're saying

00:31:58.500 then that has

00:31:59.800 to be Israel's

00:32:00.460 military objective.

00:32:01.740 I don't see

00:32:02.500 how that's ever

00:32:04.140 going to be

00:32:04.500 palatable to

00:32:05.220 people who

00:32:06.240 are looking

00:32:07.260 at that situation.

00:32:08.040 Well,

00:32:08.600 the logical

00:32:09.700 conclusion is

00:32:10.600 I accept

00:32:11.160 that Israel

00:32:11.640 is stuck

00:32:12.020 between a rock

00:32:12.600 and a hard

00:32:12.940 place

00:32:13.320 because the

00:32:15.460 situation has

00:32:16.020 got so bad

00:32:16.800 in the Gaza

00:32:17.620 Strip that

00:32:18.720 it is having

00:32:19.300 to make

00:32:19.680 very difficult

00:32:20.280 decisions

00:32:20.760 and this war

00:32:22.760 has been

00:32:23.140 dragged out

00:32:23.940 not just

00:32:25.020 because of

00:32:25.900 the enormous

00:32:26.240 precautions

00:32:26.680 that Israel

00:32:27.060 is taking

00:32:27.480 but also

00:32:28.100 because of

00:32:28.820 the repercussions

00:32:29.460 of what you've

00:32:31.080 described as

00:32:31.520 the propaganda

00:32:31.980 war.

00:32:32.620 Undoubtedly,

00:32:33.520 and this has

00:32:33.800 been remarked

00:32:34.280 on by many

00:32:35.120 officials,

00:32:36.160 American pressure

00:32:37.180 on Israel

00:32:37.740 has drawn

00:32:39.020 this conflict

00:32:39.700 out.

00:32:40.240 It has said

00:32:40.760 you have to

00:32:41.840 pull this

00:32:42.400 tooth

00:32:43.180 very,

00:32:44.440 very slowly

00:32:45.260 and that

00:32:46.920 has caused

00:32:47.520 more casualties

00:32:48.860 undeniably

00:32:49.520 on both sides

00:32:50.480 because of

00:32:51.300 the manner

00:32:51.620 in which Israel

00:32:52.260 has been

00:32:52.680 held back

00:32:53.380 from achieving

00:32:54.860 some of its

00:32:55.860 military objectives

00:32:56.640 here.

00:32:57.300 I completely

00:32:57.920 accept what

00:32:58.380 you're saying

00:32:58.920 but those

00:32:59.400 are the realities

00:33:00.100 of the situation

00:33:01.180 and I come

00:33:02.120 back to my

00:33:02.580 earlier point

00:33:03.060 about the

00:33:03.360 international

00:33:03.720 communities

00:33:04.240 contribution

00:33:06.460 here.

00:33:07.440 That is the

00:33:08.080 unfortunate

00:33:08.600 result of

00:33:10.580 what happened

00:33:11.860 after Israel's

00:33:12.580 withdrawal in

00:33:13.540 2005 from

00:33:14.420 the Gaza Strip

00:33:15.080 when again

00:33:16.460 this is also

00:33:17.600 not just about

00:33:18.640 Hamas firing

00:33:19.880 onto Israeli

00:33:20.420 civilians

00:33:20.840 it's also about

00:33:21.920 what they do

00:33:22.320 to their own

00:33:22.760 people.

00:33:24.160 In 2007

00:33:25.660 when they

00:33:26.600 violently took

00:33:27.440 over the Gaza

00:33:27.940 Strip

00:33:28.160 they threw

00:33:28.500 their opposition

00:33:29.040 Fatah members

00:33:29.880 off of the

00:33:30.640 roofs of

00:33:30.960 buildings.

00:33:32.100 They have

00:33:32.440 used children

00:33:33.240 to dig

00:33:34.480 the tunnels

00:33:35.100 some of

00:33:35.760 whom have

00:33:36.020 died.

00:33:37.100 They have

00:33:37.720 subjugated

00:33:39.100 their people

00:33:41.020 for 16

00:33:42.200 years.

00:33:42.860 They are also

00:33:43.600 executing them

00:33:44.400 in the street.

00:33:44.860 I mean all of

00:33:45.260 this is an

00:33:45.620 important facet

00:33:47.100 of what it

00:33:47.700 is that you're

00:33:48.800 rightly picking

00:33:49.440 up on in

00:33:49.940 terms of

00:33:50.240 how on earth

00:33:51.060 where do we

00:33:51.700 go from

00:33:52.060 here.

00:33:52.440 But the

00:33:53.080 starting point

00:33:53.680 has to be

00:33:54.380 and I think

00:33:54.760 this has been

00:33:55.240 proven to be

00:33:56.300 correct now

00:33:56.940 on multiple

00:33:57.400 occasions

00:33:57.900 if you are

00:33:59.340 going to have

00:34:00.120 any chance

00:34:00.940 of releasing

00:34:01.860 further

00:34:02.320 hostages

00:34:02.880 then you

00:34:04.000 have to

00:34:04.360 apply

00:34:04.580 military

00:34:04.880 pressure

00:34:05.160 to Hamas.

00:34:06.320 Only in

00:34:06.640 the last

00:34:06.920 few days

00:34:07.540 even Associated

00:34:08.720 Press I

00:34:09.120 think had

00:34:09.400 been

00:34:09.620 acknowledging

00:34:10.160 that Netanyahu

00:34:11.320 was correct

00:34:11.920 in this

00:34:12.200 respect.

00:34:12.720 It achieved

00:34:13.280 the first

00:34:14.140 deal at

00:34:15.000 the end

00:34:15.380 of what

00:34:16.680 it was

00:34:16.900 in November.

00:34:18.560 The ceasefire

00:34:19.280 fell apart

00:34:19.960 on the 1st

00:34:20.800 of December

00:34:21.280 and it

00:34:22.780 has on

00:34:23.880 several occasions

00:34:24.680 now caused

00:34:25.880 Hamas to

00:34:26.580 come to the

00:34:26.980 negotiating table

00:34:27.980 because they

00:34:29.060 are starting

00:34:29.520 to feel

00:34:30.080 the military

00:34:30.960 pressure.

00:34:31.740 On each

00:34:32.040 of those

00:34:32.280 occasions

00:34:32.600 however lots

00:34:33.380 of the

00:34:33.580 international

00:34:34.020 rhetoric

00:34:34.480 that we

00:34:35.280 have been

00:34:35.520 talking about

00:34:36.220 which plays

00:34:36.880 into Hamas's

00:34:37.560 hands

00:34:38.040 seems to

00:34:39.080 have in

00:34:40.620 various respects

00:34:41.480 caused those

00:34:42.940 negotiations

00:34:43.580 to fail.

00:34:45.040 But I

00:34:46.240 completely accept

00:34:47.160 the difficulties

00:34:48.560 of the situation

00:34:49.260 that you're

00:34:49.580 presenting.

00:34:50.780 This is

00:34:51.380 in many

00:34:52.840 respects a

00:34:54.040 lose-lose

00:34:54.480 situation for

00:34:55.180 Israel and

00:34:56.040 it is because

00:34:57.200 the IDF

00:34:58.260 in particular

00:34:58.740 is so

00:34:59.120 committed

00:34:59.520 to minimising

00:35:01.100 civilian

00:35:01.500 casualty

00:35:02.140 and to

00:35:02.540 doing its

00:35:03.260 utmost

00:35:03.880 that Hamas

00:35:05.480 has been

00:35:05.740 taking advantage

00:35:06.440 of this.

00:35:07.300 Sure but

00:35:07.700 I guess what

00:35:08.500 I'm saying

00:35:08.900 Natasha and

00:35:09.400 I think

00:35:09.700 you're a

00:35:10.000 very smart

00:35:10.520 and clearly

00:35:11.040 very logical

00:35:11.860 person you

00:35:12.420 must see

00:35:12.760 what I'm

00:35:13.080 saying.

00:35:14.120 If the

00:35:14.500 end result

00:35:15.160 of what

00:35:15.860 Israel has

00:35:17.120 to do

00:35:17.640 in this

00:35:18.600 line of

00:35:18.980 argument

00:35:19.300 is to

00:35:19.800 destroy

00:35:20.280 all of

00:35:20.660 Gaza

00:35:20.960 you can

00:35:21.780 see why

00:35:22.220 there'd

00:35:22.440 be a lot

00:35:22.820 of people

00:35:23.160 who'd be

00:35:23.460 uncomfortable

00:35:23.860 about that.

00:35:24.740 Well I

00:35:25.000 don't think

00:35:25.760 Israel has

00:35:26.120 ever said

00:35:26.560 that is

00:35:27.240 what it

00:35:27.520 is intended

00:35:27.900 to do.

00:35:28.380 But the

00:35:28.400 logical conclusion

00:35:28.960 of your

00:35:29.420 argument is

00:35:30.260 that that's

00:35:30.780 what's going

00:35:31.060 to happen.

00:35:31.540 I also

00:35:32.260 don't quite

00:35:32.700 accept that

00:35:33.160 because you

00:35:33.960 and I

00:35:34.320 neither of

00:35:35.000 us know

00:35:35.700 the intricate

00:35:37.780 nature of

00:35:39.100 the situation

00:35:39.540 on the ground

00:35:39.960 to be able

00:35:40.240 to make

00:35:40.480 that assessment.

00:35:41.520 We in

00:35:42.640 many respects

00:35:43.180 have to

00:35:43.520 accept what

00:35:43.940 Israel is

00:35:44.340 saying which

00:35:44.780 is that there

00:35:45.240 are military

00:35:46.340 plans that it

00:35:47.140 can follow

00:35:49.000 through on

00:35:49.780 in pursuit

00:35:50.540 of those

00:35:51.000 objectives.

00:35:51.600 One

00:35:53.200 aspect of

00:35:54.080 this that

00:35:54.340 you actually

00:35:54.860 did touch

00:35:55.340 on that

00:35:55.740 would make

00:35:56.040 it clearly

00:35:56.440 a lot

00:35:56.700 easier to

00:35:57.180 do is

00:35:58.560 the

00:35:59.400 possible

00:36:00.000 evacuation

00:36:03.120 of civilians

00:36:03.940 through to

00:36:04.880 Egypt.

00:36:05.660 That's

00:36:06.000 something that

00:36:06.380 I just

00:36:06.880 don't hear

00:36:07.260 people talking

00:36:07.860 about.

00:36:08.620 It was

00:36:09.000 actually in

00:36:10.740 accordance with

00:36:11.200 Egypt's

00:36:11.600 obligations under

00:36:12.360 international law

00:36:13.200 under separate

00:36:14.200 convention on

00:36:15.040 refugees, the

00:36:16.080 African Union

00:36:16.680 Convention on

00:36:17.280 Refugees which

00:36:18.120 Egypt acceded to

00:36:19.000 in 1980 which

00:36:20.320 has a much

00:36:20.700 broader definition

00:36:21.480 of refugee than

00:36:23.140 the international

00:36:24.460 convention.

00:36:25.480 Egypt has an

00:36:25.940 obligation to

00:36:26.580 facilitate the

00:36:27.920 passage across

00:36:29.620 the Rafa border

00:36:30.560 for all of those

00:36:32.060 civilians that are

00:36:32.660 fleeing civil

00:36:33.200 disorder and it

00:36:34.040 has done for the

00:36:34.680 last eight, nine

00:36:35.700 months and it

00:36:36.740 has failed to

00:36:38.020 do so.

00:36:38.380 Now why would

00:36:38.800 that be a game

00:36:39.380 changer?

00:36:40.420 And I'll come

00:36:41.580 on to why this

00:36:42.160 is so significant

00:36:43.440 that nobody's

00:36:44.080 talking about

00:36:44.460 this.

00:36:44.900 It would be a

00:36:45.420 game changer

00:36:45.860 because in

00:36:46.740 Egyptian Rafa

00:36:47.480 which is just

00:36:48.380 the other side

00:36:48.880 of the border

00:36:49.360 which is the

00:36:51.480 start of the

00:36:52.320 Sinai Desert

00:36:52.900 you have

00:36:53.920 unlimited space

00:36:55.200 to create a

00:36:57.060 safe zone where

00:36:58.560 you can take

00:36:59.540 civilians away

00:37:00.220 from Hamas

00:37:00.840 where you can

00:37:01.840 provide them

00:37:02.320 with humanitarian

00:37:02.880 assistance which

00:37:03.780 is not diverted

00:37:04.560 to Hamas and

00:37:05.900 you can protect

00:37:06.620 them both from

00:37:07.980 Palestinian aggression

00:37:09.840 and from Israel's

00:37:11.820 military activities

00:37:12.960 in the Gaza

00:37:13.740 Strip.

00:37:14.680 The reason I

00:37:15.460 find it impossible

00:37:16.260 to understand

00:37:18.260 or give credit

00:37:20.720 let me say

00:37:21.620 to people who

00:37:22.420 suggest that

00:37:23.040 they are

00:37:23.600 standing up

00:37:24.660 and defending

00:37:26.340 the Palestinians

00:37:27.000 when they

00:37:28.180 attack Israel

00:37:29.560 or they call

00:37:30.720 for an immediate

00:37:31.360 ceasefire

00:37:32.000 before the

00:37:33.160 hostages have

00:37:33.840 been released

00:37:35.060 or before Hamas

00:37:36.360 has been

00:37:37.300 destroyed.

00:37:38.580 If these people

00:37:39.720 truly held the

00:37:41.000 interests of the

00:37:41.640 Palestinians at

00:37:42.540 heart then they

00:37:43.740 would be calling

00:37:44.360 as I have

00:37:45.400 done since

00:37:46.580 October for

00:37:47.500 Egypt to comply

00:37:48.280 with its

00:37:48.640 international law

00:37:49.440 obligations

00:37:50.340 because all of

00:37:51.660 the difficulties

00:37:52.360 that you

00:37:52.880 describe in

00:37:54.220 the logical

00:37:54.680 conclusion of

00:37:55.380 what Israel

00:37:55.740 has to do

00:37:56.500 are significantly

00:37:57.700 mitigated by

00:37:58.600 that because

00:37:59.600 these civilians

00:38:00.160 are taken out

00:38:00.780 of harm's way

00:38:01.500 and then Israel

00:38:02.520 is in a much

00:38:03.080 better position

00:38:04.180 to specifically

00:38:05.340 target Hamas

00:38:06.680 terror infrastructure

00:38:07.640 and specifically

00:38:08.900 the terrorists

00:38:09.720 because if

00:38:10.780 for the sake

00:38:11.780 of argument

00:38:12.260 it is successful

00:38:13.060 in eliminating

00:38:13.820 these terrorists

00:38:14.660 then the

00:38:16.880 structures that

00:38:18.160 you have in

00:38:18.600 place are

00:38:19.960 significantly less

00:38:21.320 important.

00:38:22.920 So then why

00:38:23.620 doesn't Egypt

00:38:25.800 do that?

00:38:27.560 You'll have to

00:38:28.120 ask the Egyptians

00:38:29.080 I'm afraid.

00:38:29.720 Well not many

00:38:30.020 countries would

00:38:30.660 want to take

00:38:31.160 millions of

00:38:31.800 refugees.

00:38:32.620 I mean the UK

00:38:33.140 wouldn't want to

00:38:34.020 take millions of

00:38:34.760 refugees from

00:38:35.500 France mainly

00:38:36.900 because we don't

00:38:37.320 like the

00:38:37.620 France but you

00:38:38.900 know what I

00:38:39.200 mean right?

00:38:39.720 So like that's

00:38:40.360 a fairly reasonable

00:38:41.060 thing for a

00:38:41.620 country not to

00:38:42.200 want to do.

00:38:42.740 But the

00:38:42.920 suggestion isn't

00:38:43.560 that Egypt

00:38:44.120 embraces these

00:38:45.600 refugees say as

00:38:46.800 you know Israel

00:38:47.860 did with refugees

00:38:48.680 from the Arab

00:38:49.280 world and give

00:38:51.100 them citizenship

00:38:51.700 and take them

00:38:52.540 into their

00:38:53.240 communities.

00:38:54.180 Absolutely not.

00:38:55.560 The suggestion

00:38:56.260 has always been

00:38:57.220 that they provide

00:38:58.040 a safe zone

00:38:59.660 away from

00:39:00.760 Hamas and

00:39:02.740 that when

00:39:03.260 Hamas is

00:39:03.800 destroyed that

00:39:05.040 there is every

00:39:06.180 intention and

00:39:07.360 opportunity for

00:39:07.960 these civilians

00:39:08.380 to return.

00:39:09.760 So that's the

00:39:10.460 difficulty aspect.

00:39:11.060 Return from what

00:39:11.320 will return to

00:39:12.420 a Gaza Strip

00:39:13.000 that will have

00:39:13.520 to be rebuilt

00:39:14.240 with international

00:39:15.840 cooperation but

00:39:17.260 significantly also

00:39:18.260 with the input

00:39:19.040 of those

00:39:19.860 neighboring states

00:39:20.800 that understand

00:39:21.320 the importance

00:39:21.860 of de-radicalization.

00:39:23.180 I mentioned

00:39:23.840 Saudi in the

00:39:24.460 textbooks earlier.

00:39:26.620 The UAE of

00:39:28.580 course has a

00:39:30.620 significant track

00:39:31.260 record and

00:39:31.640 understands what

00:39:32.840 it is that

00:39:33.200 needs to be

00:39:33.640 done in terms

00:39:34.320 of de-radicalization

00:39:35.780 or de-Nazification

00:39:37.160 if you will

00:39:37.880 because that

00:39:38.700 went hand

00:39:39.420 in hand

00:39:39.820 with the

00:39:40.120 Marshall Plan

00:39:40.760 with the

00:39:41.020 rebuilding of

00:39:41.640 Germany.

00:39:42.400 But that's

00:39:43.060 critical and

00:39:43.700 as long as

00:39:44.720 we sitting

00:39:45.940 here, the

00:39:46.480 international

00:39:46.840 community,

00:39:47.980 refuse to

00:39:48.600 accept that

00:39:49.440 the significant,

00:39:51.440 pivotal,

00:39:52.600 critical role

00:39:53.480 that indoctrination

00:39:54.900 has played

00:39:55.820 and that

00:39:56.820 incentivization to

00:39:57.940 terror plays

00:39:58.820 in perpetuating

00:40:00.500 this conflict,

00:40:01.880 then I'm

00:40:03.000 afraid we're not

00:40:04.000 going to get

00:40:04.520 to any of

00:40:06.160 the logical

00:40:06.500 conclusions that

00:40:07.300 you set out

00:40:08.040 because this

00:40:09.280 is not going

00:40:10.440 to be defeatable.

00:40:11.400 That has to be

00:40:12.200 the major shift

00:40:12.800 now.

00:40:13.580 And look,

00:40:14.220 it's a great

00:40:14.720 point but let's

00:40:16.120 also be honest

00:40:16.780 about this.

00:40:17.360 It's not just

00:40:18.020 about what's

00:40:18.660 happening in

00:40:19.440 Gaza or

00:40:19.980 Arafa.

00:40:20.480 You look at

00:40:21.320 Iran.

00:40:22.040 Iran are funding

00:40:22.840 a lot of these

00:40:23.780 terrorist

00:40:24.200 organizations.

00:40:25.100 You have

00:40:25.340 Lebanon as

00:40:26.660 well with

00:40:27.420 Hezbollah.

00:40:28.680 I mean, it's

00:40:30.040 not just as

00:40:30.840 simple.

00:40:31.280 I'm not saying

00:40:31.740 you're saying

00:40:32.300 this by the

00:40:32.720 way, but as

00:40:33.600 Palestine, we

00:40:34.500 I mean, how

00:40:35.260 do you deal

00:40:36.260 with that, with

00:40:37.080 countries who

00:40:38.720 are overt in

00:40:40.380 their rhetoric

00:40:41.020 when it comes

00:40:41.860 to saying that

00:40:42.680 they want

00:40:43.320 Israel wiped

00:40:44.400 off the map?

00:40:45.580 Well, you take

00:40:45.960 them seriously

00:40:46.460 for starters.

00:40:48.100 And the

00:40:49.280 unprecedented

00:40:49.920 step that we

00:40:50.980 saw of Iran

00:40:52.220 firing on

00:40:53.600 Israel directly.

00:40:54.560 You're absolutely

00:40:55.340 right, Francis,

00:40:56.160 that it's used

00:40:56.900 proxies to

00:40:58.520 attack not just

00:40:59.160 Israel but also

00:40:59.820 Western interests

00:41:00.500 around the world

00:41:01.320 for decades.

00:41:02.740 and the

00:41:04.440 manner in

00:41:06.440 which the

00:41:07.000 Lebanon

00:41:07.460 government has

00:41:08.720 failed to

00:41:10.200 prevent

00:41:10.720 Hezbollah

00:41:11.540 from firing

00:41:12.320 onto Israeli

00:41:13.220 civilians in

00:41:14.080 the north of

00:41:14.720 the country

00:41:15.100 for the last

00:41:15.560 nine months.

00:41:16.320 Again, something

00:41:17.200 nobody ever

00:41:17.760 speaks about.

00:41:19.000 Tens of

00:41:19.460 thousands of

00:41:20.340 Israeli civilians

00:41:21.020 have been

00:41:21.300 evacuated, have

00:41:22.140 spent nine

00:41:22.780 months away

00:41:23.240 from their

00:41:23.600 homes.

00:41:24.380 They cannot

00:41:24.960 return to

00:41:25.600 the north

00:41:25.960 because it

00:41:26.360 is under

00:41:26.660 constant fire

00:41:27.600 by Hezbollah

00:41:28.920 terrorists,

00:41:29.580 another Iranian

00:41:30.220 proxy, in the

00:41:31.500 north of the

00:41:31.960 country.

00:41:32.980 That is in

00:41:33.680 breach of a

00:41:35.380 UN resolution

00:41:36.060 1701 which

00:41:37.680 promised that

00:41:38.940 there would be

00:41:39.480 no Hezbollah

00:41:41.240 presence south

00:41:42.600 of what was

00:41:43.340 called the

00:41:43.680 Blue Line,

00:41:44.260 the Litani

00:41:44.680 River,

00:41:45.620 threatening the

00:41:46.500 north of

00:41:46.940 Israel.

00:41:48.020 There was even

00:41:48.740 a UN force,

00:41:50.160 UNIFIL, that

00:41:50.900 was set up in

00:41:51.680 order to ensure

00:41:53.120 that that

00:41:53.900 provision was

00:41:54.460 met.

00:41:54.860 I mean, the

00:41:55.560 international

00:41:55.980 community has

00:41:56.660 become a

00:41:57.660 laughingstock in

00:41:58.400 the context of

00:41:59.320 these reassurances

00:42:00.800 which were

00:42:01.360 never followed

00:42:01.860 up.

00:42:02.580 And what

00:42:03.040 you're describing

00:42:03.680 in the context

00:42:04.340 of the wider

00:42:04.960 war against

00:42:05.820 the world's

00:42:06.580 foremost state

00:42:07.520 sponsor of

00:42:08.140 terrorism, Iran,

00:42:09.380 is significant

00:42:10.240 because instead

00:42:10.920 of stringent

00:42:12.700 sanctions, we

00:42:13.740 have seen a

00:42:14.980 willingness to

00:42:16.080 negotiate with

00:42:18.460 an entity that

00:42:19.380 has taken

00:42:20.180 American hostages,

00:42:21.920 that has

00:42:22.360 threatened British

00:42:23.940 nationals, as

00:42:25.340 well as posing

00:42:26.640 this existential

00:42:28.220 threat, let's

00:42:29.600 call it what it

00:42:30.120 is to Israel.

00:42:31.020 This brings me

00:42:31.600 to a question

00:42:32.180 that is very

00:42:32.740 professionally

00:42:33.240 insulting to

00:42:34.020 you, but not

00:42:34.520 personally insulting

00:42:35.320 I hope, which

00:42:35.900 is, isn't

00:42:36.860 international law

00:42:37.840 just a thing,

00:42:38.740 just like a fig

00:42:39.400 leaf we put

00:42:40.040 over the fact

00:42:40.600 that the world

00:42:41.120 is governed by

00:42:41.740 real politic and

00:42:43.300 ultimately no one

00:42:44.340 really cares because

00:42:45.140 there's no

00:42:45.500 enforcement mechanism?

00:42:47.000 Well, when I

00:42:47.400 was at university

00:42:48.240 many, many

00:42:49.340 moons ago and

00:42:50.400 was studying

00:42:51.340 international

00:42:51.820 law for the

00:42:52.360 first time, I

00:42:53.820 was told that

00:42:54.460 most states

00:42:55.360 adhere to most

00:42:56.680 international law

00:42:57.740 most of the

00:42:58.700 time.

00:42:59.020 And therefore

00:42:59.640 it is a net

00:43:00.200 good.

00:43:02.020 I, we

00:43:03.420 could have a

00:43:03.800 whole separate

00:43:04.340 session on, you

00:43:05.040 know, the

00:43:05.260 merits of

00:43:05.960 international law.

00:43:07.560 Is it a legal

00:43:08.400 system?

00:43:09.000 Is it essentially

00:43:09.620 international

00:43:10.140 diplomacy and

00:43:11.840 politics?

00:43:12.900 But the fact of

00:43:13.820 the matter is

00:43:14.560 that so much of

00:43:15.540 the last nine

00:43:16.960 months have been

00:43:17.760 discussed in the

00:43:18.700 context of

00:43:20.260 international legal

00:43:21.680 terminology.

00:43:22.740 But this is what

00:43:23.280 I'm saying.

00:43:23.680 I'm sorry to

00:43:24.140 interrupt.

00:43:24.420 This is exactly

00:43:25.020 what I'm saying.

00:43:25.660 I feel like all

00:43:27.080 it is, is an

00:43:28.240 opportunity for

00:43:29.020 soundbiteism from

00:43:30.320 you, you, you, you

00:43:31.680 clearly are pro

00:43:32.520 Israel.

00:43:32.800 So you will say,

00:43:33.760 you know, Hezbollah,

00:43:35.180 Egypt, they're all

00:43:36.240 in, in breach of

00:43:37.020 their obligations

00:43:37.820 under various

00:43:38.500 aspects of

00:43:39.040 international law.

00:43:39.760 And the pro

00:43:40.660 Palestine people

00:43:41.900 will say, well,

00:43:42.520 Israel is the

00:43:43.280 only state that

00:43:44.040 hasn't complied

00:43:44.740 with its UN

00:43:45.460 resolution, X, Y,

00:43:47.100 Z, whatever.

00:43:47.720 And everyone just

00:43:48.560 uses it basically

00:43:50.040 to back up their

00:43:50.860 argument.

00:43:51.200 And no one

00:43:51.980 actually cares

00:43:52.780 because it's not

00:43:53.680 a law like the

00:43:54.980 law of this land

00:43:55.660 where if you

00:43:56.040 don't follow it,

00:43:56.640 someone's going to

00:43:57.080 come and put you

00:43:57.560 in prison.

00:43:58.540 I do disagree.

00:43:59.820 Okay.

00:44:00.420 I do care about

00:44:01.360 it because I think

00:44:02.480 it is being

00:44:02.920 misrepresented.

00:44:04.920 And that is

00:44:05.760 critical.

00:44:06.400 I mean, I

00:44:06.960 completely understand

00:44:07.620 what you're saying.

00:44:08.140 The difference is

00:44:08.700 that I've given

00:44:09.480 you chapter and

00:44:10.040 verse.

00:44:10.500 And when people

00:44:11.140 say Israel breaks

00:44:11.820 international law

00:44:13.060 or UN resolutions,

00:44:14.180 invariably they can't

00:44:15.000 name one because

00:44:15.740 there isn't a

00:44:16.540 single UN

00:44:17.880 Security Council

00:44:18.920 chapter seven

00:44:19.980 resolution, which

00:44:20.780 is the only

00:44:21.340 resolution that

00:44:22.460 is ever legally

00:44:23.240 binding, that

00:44:24.160 Israel is in

00:44:25.480 breach of.

00:44:26.460 People are using

00:44:27.740 international legal

00:44:29.400 terminology, but

00:44:30.660 they are abusing

00:44:31.380 it.

00:44:31.820 And this is the

00:44:32.360 whole concept of

00:44:33.180 lawfare, right?

00:44:34.280 This is, I say,

00:44:35.520 an abuse of

00:44:36.280 international law,

00:44:37.060 not its proper

00:44:37.900 application.

00:44:38.680 And that feeds

00:44:39.500 into the question

00:44:40.160 that you're posing

00:44:40.900 because it

00:44:41.700 undermines the

00:44:43.140 international legal

00:44:44.100 order.

00:44:44.780 It undermines the

00:44:45.380 credibility of

00:44:46.060 international law.

00:44:47.360 And international law

00:44:48.360 does exist and it

00:44:49.580 provides a framework

00:44:50.640 for states to be

00:44:51.920 able to interact

00:44:52.660 with each other

00:44:53.340 in a, you know,

00:44:55.500 in a mutual

00:44:56.060 understanding,

00:44:57.560 context, framework,

00:44:59.320 which is important.

00:45:01.200 It's extremely

00:45:01.700 significant for the

00:45:02.500 way that we

00:45:02.980 conduct ourselves

00:45:04.340 internationally and

00:45:05.440 for the proper

00:45:06.760 maintenance of

00:45:07.520 international diplomacy.

00:45:08.800 But it is being

00:45:09.280 subverted.

00:45:10.960 International law is

00:45:11.540 being turned on its

00:45:12.200 head with these

00:45:13.600 modern blood

00:45:14.080 libels.

00:45:14.780 And we come back

00:45:15.360 to, you know,

00:45:15.880 what started this

00:45:16.840 discussion in terms

00:45:17.560 of genocide and

00:45:18.660 apartheid.

00:45:19.100 These are both

00:45:19.500 international legal

00:45:20.740 terms that have a

00:45:21.580 clear meaning which

00:45:22.900 are being lied

00:45:24.740 about.

00:45:25.520 Well, let's talk

00:45:25.940 about apartheid.

00:45:26.880 So can you tell us

00:45:27.840 what apartheid means

00:45:28.960 and why that doesn't

00:45:30.420 apply to what's

00:45:31.160 happening?

00:45:31.580 Because, again,

00:45:32.960 that's something people

00:45:33.640 are often confused

00:45:34.440 about.

00:45:35.440 Well, it references

00:45:36.900 the state of affairs

00:45:38.260 in South Africa

00:45:39.060 where you had a part

00:45:40.780 of the community

00:45:41.600 that was treated

00:45:42.300 as other.

00:45:43.980 And in South Africa

00:45:45.060 there was racial

00:45:46.060 discrimination

00:45:46.600 against the blacks.

00:45:48.780 They did not have

00:45:49.820 equal rights

00:45:50.660 to the whites.

00:45:51.940 The reason that

00:45:52.860 apartheid is being

00:45:54.240 deployed falsely

00:45:55.380 against Israel

00:45:56.040 is because

00:45:56.720 in the international

00:45:58.160 legal context

00:45:59.340 apartheid by

00:46:00.540 precedence

00:46:01.320 has consequences.

00:46:03.540 Apartheid means

00:46:04.440 sanctions.

00:46:05.640 That is what

00:46:06.140 happened to South

00:46:06.900 Africa.

00:46:07.700 And that's the

00:46:08.260 reason it's being

00:46:08.800 deployed against Israel

00:46:09.760 because of the

00:46:10.480 boycott divestment

00:46:11.660 sanctions movement

00:46:12.640 intention to try

00:46:14.820 and legitimize

00:46:15.600 its position

00:46:16.420 to boycott

00:46:17.320 the only Jewish

00:46:17.960 state.

00:46:18.880 Do Palestinians

00:46:19.420 and Gaza

00:46:20.080 and the West Bank

00:46:20.700 have the same

00:46:21.240 rights as Israelis?

00:46:22.580 Well, that's not

00:46:23.320 a proper comparison

00:46:24.740 because I explained

00:46:26.560 that the Palestinians

00:46:28.160 have an autonomy

00:46:29.240 in the West Bank.

00:46:30.100 They have self-governance

00:46:30.840 in Gaza.

00:46:31.900 So what you have

00:46:32.920 is, let's talk

00:46:34.320 about Israel

00:46:34.840 for starters,

00:46:35.940 you do have

00:46:36.720 equality between

00:46:37.480 all Israeli citizens,

00:46:38.940 Arabs and Jews.

00:46:40.880 Arab Israelis

00:46:42.000 serve in every

00:46:42.800 area of Israeli

00:46:44.180 society.

00:46:44.820 They're in the

00:46:45.740 police.

00:46:46.460 They're also in

00:46:46.960 the army.

00:46:48.020 They serve as

00:46:49.100 doctors, as

00:46:50.200 lawyers, as

00:46:51.260 school teachers.

00:46:52.880 I worked at the

00:46:53.420 Israeli Supreme

00:46:54.080 Court under the

00:46:55.760 former Chief Justice

00:46:56.480 Miriam Naor.

00:46:57.320 One of the other

00:46:57.880 judges was an Arab.

00:46:59.480 He put both an

00:47:00.900 Israeli president

00:47:01.640 and a prime

00:47:02.400 minister, both of

00:47:03.160 them Jewish,

00:47:04.100 behind bars.

00:47:05.500 So the notion

00:47:06.940 that there is any

00:47:08.040 lack of equality

00:47:09.580 within Israel

00:47:10.380 is simply not

00:47:12.000 correct.

00:47:12.980 Anyone who's

00:47:13.560 actually gone to

00:47:14.680 visit Israel

00:47:15.180 will probably

00:47:15.760 see the

00:47:16.780 diversity that

00:47:17.860 exists, and

00:47:18.900 especially Muslims,

00:47:20.420 Jews, Christians

00:47:21.140 living side by

00:47:23.040 side and getting

00:47:23.800 on with their

00:47:24.300 lives.

00:47:25.160 It's important in

00:47:26.100 that context to

00:47:26.780 recognize that, in

00:47:27.800 fact, it's only in

00:47:28.880 Israel that Arabs

00:47:30.440 were able to live as

00:47:31.520 free citizens of a

00:47:32.520 democracy.

00:47:32.940 They are the only

00:47:33.820 free Arabs in the

00:47:34.620 Middle East.

00:47:35.700 And that is really

00:47:37.060 without question.

00:47:37.740 you can talk about

00:47:38.740 divisions within

00:47:39.860 Israeli society, you

00:47:41.420 can talk about, you

00:47:42.900 know, the history of

00:47:44.180 Israel being attacked

00:47:45.620 since its very

00:47:46.820 existence by

00:47:47.800 surrounding Arab

00:47:48.440 states, and what

00:47:49.620 that means in terms

00:47:50.760 of the way that

00:47:51.500 individuals conduct

00:47:52.940 themselves or

00:47:54.060 prejudices that they

00:47:55.120 may hold both

00:47:56.660 sides.

00:47:57.320 But you cannot say

00:47:58.800 that there is a

00:47:59.560 legal system that

00:48:01.120 differentiates between

00:48:02.400 Arab and Jew and

00:48:04.500 that treats them

00:48:05.160 unequally.

00:48:05.900 as a matter of

00:48:07.160 law, that is

00:48:07.660 simply not the

00:48:08.140 case.

00:48:08.640 May I just come

00:48:09.180 on to what you've

00:48:09.960 asked about the

00:48:10.740 rest of the

00:48:11.360 Palestinian-controlled

00:48:12.540 territories?

00:48:14.220 Well, they're not

00:48:14.740 fully controlled by

00:48:15.920 the Palestinians,

00:48:16.800 let's be honest,

00:48:17.480 right?

00:48:17.780 Israel is able to

00:48:19.660 prevent people from

00:48:21.340 leaving that area or

00:48:22.440 going to that area.

00:48:23.520 Israel has military

00:48:24.420 control of both

00:48:25.400 those areas.

00:48:26.340 West Bank is a

00:48:27.360 whole other

00:48:27.900 conversation about

00:48:28.680 what Israel is

00:48:29.240 doing there,

00:48:29.680 right?

00:48:30.460 Right.

00:48:30.780 Well, let's be

00:48:31.800 clear about the

00:48:32.580 areas we're talking

00:48:33.340 about.

00:48:33.920 Even if we're

00:48:34.360 looking at Gaza,

00:48:35.040 and you will

00:48:35.820 frequently hear

00:48:36.400 people say that

00:48:37.560 Israel controls

00:48:38.420 Gaza absolutely.

00:48:39.320 Clearly, that's not

00:48:39.860 the case because

00:48:40.500 Hamas built a terror

00:48:42.020 state there for the

00:48:43.260 last 16 years.

00:48:44.100 That would not have

00:48:44.660 been possible if

00:48:45.300 Israel controlled it.

00:48:46.580 We have seen since

00:48:47.640 Israel became active

00:48:50.440 in Rafah and took

00:48:52.340 part of the Rafah

00:48:53.640 crossing, which is the

00:48:54.520 border between Gaza

00:48:55.580 and Egypt, we've seen

00:48:57.180 the magnitude of the

00:48:58.200 tunnels that existed,

00:49:00.060 which meant that

00:49:01.100 essentially those

00:49:02.020 weapons from Iran that

00:49:03.420 you have referred to

00:49:05.060 Iranian support for

00:49:06.280 Hamas and other

00:49:07.220 terror proxies, were

00:49:08.480 flowing freely into the

00:49:09.600 Gaza Strip through

00:49:10.340 Egypt.

00:49:10.920 So that's not the

00:49:11.760 case with respect to

00:49:12.620 Gaza.

00:49:13.120 Israel has had no

00:49:13.860 control there since the

00:49:14.740 withdrawal.

00:49:15.480 With respect to the

00:49:16.140 West Bank, Area A is

00:49:17.940 entirely controlled by

00:49:19.140 the Palestinian

00:49:19.700 Authority.

00:49:20.840 Area B is under

00:49:21.620 joint control.

00:49:22.860 So the Palestinians have

00:49:24.040 civil control and Israel

00:49:25.040 does maintain military

00:49:26.920 presence there for good

00:49:28.840 reason, which we can

00:49:29.760 come on to in due

00:49:30.800 course.

00:49:31.260 But the reason that

00:49:32.520 these two territories

00:49:33.960 are significant, and

00:49:35.500 it's important to

00:49:36.160 understand that they

00:49:36.820 have self-governance

00:49:37.960 and autonomy, is

00:49:39.580 because the likes of

00:49:40.580 Amnesty International or

00:49:42.360 Human Rights Watch, when

00:49:43.780 they have produced these

00:49:44.640 reports which falsely

00:49:45.720 accuse Israel of

00:49:46.680 apartheid, they also

00:49:48.660 falsely allied the

00:49:51.180 Palestinians living in

00:49:52.980 these areas with the

00:49:54.420 Israeli Arabs.

00:49:55.740 And they say that as a

00:49:57.060 result of those

00:49:58.320 Palestinians not having

00:49:59.120 Israeli citizenship, there

00:50:00.300 is a system of

00:50:01.200 apartheid, that is a

00:50:03.940 grotesque false

00:50:05.460 portrayal of what the

00:50:08.460 situation is on the

00:50:09.780 ground.

00:50:10.520 And the reason it's so

00:50:12.100 very objectionable is

00:50:13.560 that the Palestinian

00:50:14.380 Authority in the West

00:50:16.640 Bank was created with

00:50:18.560 international backing.

00:50:20.140 It was the result of the

00:50:21.760 Oslo Accords, the Oslo

00:50:23.340 process, that Israel

00:50:25.120 created together with the

00:50:27.340 newly formed Palestinian

00:50:28.540 Authority.

00:50:29.060 that division between

00:50:30.740 areas A, B, and C in the

00:50:32.600 West Bank.

00:50:33.320 And it's also important to

00:50:34.660 note that without

00:50:36.080 Israeli security

00:50:37.040 cooperation with the

00:50:38.740 Palestinian Authority in

00:50:40.440 areas, well, primarily in

00:50:42.320 area B, because the PA

00:50:44.740 control area A entirely,

00:50:47.240 without Israeli security

00:50:48.360 cooperation, there would

00:50:49.560 be nothing to prevent a

00:50:51.100 Hamas takeover of the

00:50:53.000 Palestinian Authority in the

00:50:54.080 same way that they took

00:50:54.780 over the Gaza Strip,

00:50:55.940 throwing their opposition

00:50:56.840 Fatah members off of the

00:50:58.180 roofs of buildings.

00:50:59.620 So again, that's

00:51:00.140 something that people

00:51:00.780 don't seem to be

00:51:02.340 particularly interested in

00:51:03.360 when they are engaging in

00:51:05.060 these false tropes and

00:51:06.240 apartheid is included

00:51:07.880 there.

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00:52:09.300 Natasha, this is a pretty

00:52:11.940 unpleasant question, but I

00:52:13.060 think it needs to be asked.

00:52:14.100 Do you think Israel has a

00:52:15.080 long-term future when we see

00:52:16.760 what is happening in the

00:52:17.720 region, when we see the

00:52:20.700 outcomes of the war, the

00:52:21.740 way the war is being

00:52:23.060 represented, when you see

00:52:24.300 other countries like Iran

00:52:26.480 openly saying that they want

00:52:28.520 to destroy Israel as well as

00:52:30.820 Lebanon and other countries

00:52:32.140 as well?

00:52:33.280 I don't think that Israel

00:52:34.560 has a choice.

00:52:36.120 So not just for the

00:52:38.180 Israelis that are living

00:52:38.960 there, but also for the

00:52:40.320 Jewish people around the

00:52:41.240 world.

00:52:42.040 Because Israel's, one of its

00:52:44.760 key functions is as a safe

00:52:47.220 haven.

00:52:48.060 Because we all know what

00:52:49.160 has been happening to

00:52:50.280 Jewish communities in the

00:52:51.360 last nine months as a

00:52:52.840 result of this surge of

00:52:55.040 anti-Semitism under the

00:52:57.080 guise of this modern

00:52:58.520 subset of anti-Semitism,

00:52:59.580 anti-Zionism.

00:53:00.940 We can all see the

00:53:02.340 attacks that Jewish

00:53:03.420 communities are being

00:53:04.080 subject to and the

00:53:05.540 increased rate at which

00:53:06.860 many of these communities

00:53:08.160 are moving to Israel.

00:53:09.700 So Israel doesn't have a

00:53:10.740 choice in terms of long-term

00:53:11.780 survival, either for the

00:53:13.640 existing Israeli citizens or

00:53:15.320 for the Jewish diaspora.

00:53:17.860 It certainly made it

00:53:19.460 through extremely difficult

00:53:21.320 periods in the past.

00:53:22.800 If you think about the

00:53:23.720 formation of the state of

00:53:24.820 Israel, when David Ben-Gurion

00:53:26.540 declared the state on the

00:53:27.540 14th of May, 1948, it was

00:53:31.080 a fledgling state.

00:53:32.500 Yes, the Jewish Yeshuv had

00:53:34.860 for many decades already

00:53:35.760 been building up the state

00:53:36.960 institutions in anticipation

00:53:38.300 of declaring itself a

00:53:40.280 state, but it was

00:53:41.900 outnumbered, outgunned, it

00:53:43.680 was immediately attacked in

00:53:45.880 a promised war of

00:53:47.140 annihilation by its

00:53:48.180 neighbors and upon the

00:53:50.200 British withdrawal.

00:53:51.360 And even before that, they

00:53:52.480 had been confiscating arms

00:53:53.900 from the local Jewish

00:53:55.200 community.

00:53:55.920 So it was essentially left

00:53:56.820 completely defenseless, and

00:53:58.780 it managed to survive.

00:54:00.260 And it has fought

00:54:01.140 subsequent wars of

00:54:02.620 intended annihilation, and

00:54:04.020 it has managed to

00:54:04.820 survive.

00:54:05.980 So I don't think, when you

00:54:07.720 have no choice, you know,

00:54:09.360 this isn't, we've heard

00:54:11.180 previous comparisons, this

00:54:12.660 isn't the West fighting a

00:54:13.920 war in Iraq or a war in

00:54:15.500 Afghanistan.

00:54:16.760 These are, this is an army

00:54:18.000 of conscripts, doctors,

00:54:20.940 lawyers, engineers, teachers,

00:54:22.600 plumbers, carpenters, who

00:54:26.240 when the country was

00:54:27.460 under attack, didn't wait

00:54:30.160 to be caught, because they

00:54:32.220 know the importance of

00:54:34.380 putting on their uniform and

00:54:35.500 defending their families.

00:54:37.100 This is not a country that

00:54:38.580 has a choice.

00:54:39.920 You know, we've seen

00:54:40.600 similar, I would say,

00:54:41.900 bravery amongst Ukrainians

00:54:43.400 who are defending their very

00:54:45.480 lives and their, the lives

00:54:46.960 of their nearest and

00:54:47.700 dearest.

00:54:48.540 And when one is faced with

00:54:49.980 that kind of existential

00:54:50.940 threat, then these

00:54:52.540 questions as to, you know,

00:54:53.580 whether or not Israel will

00:54:54.420 give up, or whether it can

00:54:56.320 actually succeed, become a

00:54:58.340 great deal less important.

00:55:00.240 And when we see the way

00:55:01.680 that, that Israel has

00:55:02.900 unified, I know neither of

00:55:04.600 you have been since the

00:55:05.960 7th of October, I've had the

00:55:07.460 opportunity now to go on a

00:55:08.500 number of occasions, and to

00:55:10.260 see the way the country has

00:55:11.300 come together, and not just

00:55:13.560 Jewish Israelis, the way that

00:55:15.540 Arab Israelis have said,

00:55:18.120 I have no other country, is, I

00:55:24.400 think, a remarkable indication

00:55:26.760 of the strength of the will

00:55:30.000 and of the dedication that

00:55:32.200 Israeli citizens have to

00:55:35.060 defend themselves against this

00:55:36.820 unspeakable horror, to push

00:55:40.160 back against these forces of

00:55:41.420 darkness.

00:55:42.360 I mean, a lot, there's been a

00:55:43.200 lot of talk about forces of

00:55:44.900 light and darkness.

00:55:45.660 It's undeniable that the death

00:55:49.740 cult that is Hamas celebrates

00:55:51.900 death.

00:55:53.240 You see mothers who have

00:55:56.540 children who have become

00:55:58.420 martyrs, in their words, who

00:56:01.720 have killed themselves in order

00:56:04.800 to slaughter Jews, and you see

00:56:06.800 that being celebrated, not by

00:56:08.460 all, but you do see instances of

00:56:11.420 that being celebrated.

00:56:12.260 that is the complete inverse of

00:56:15.280 what we see when Israelis are

00:56:17.440 putting on uniform, not just to

00:56:18.980 defend their own families, but

00:56:21.680 also to do their utmost, to

00:56:23.620 protect civilians in the context

00:56:25.320 of the war that they're fighting

00:56:26.500 in Gaza.

00:56:27.280 And it's also, as well, you look

00:56:28.780 at the United States, and the

00:56:30.640 United States has always been a

00:56:31.780 great ally of Israel, but there

00:56:34.760 seems to be more of a hesitancy

00:56:36.280 now to support Israel from within

00:56:39.740 the United States than there has

00:56:41.560 been previously, hasn't there?

00:56:43.360 Politics plays a significant role

00:56:44.680 in this.

00:56:45.600 And it's extremely troubling when

00:56:48.020 you see, you know, the Biden

00:56:49.600 administration coming out with

00:56:51.200 comments that they then suddenly

00:56:53.880 walk back.

00:56:54.680 Say, for example, this reference to

00:56:55.900 indiscriminate bombing, which was

00:56:57.640 then very quickly walked back by

00:56:59.120 spokespeople.

00:57:00.720 But you see an awful lot of that...

00:57:01.980 Was that Biden who said that

00:57:03.100 himself?

00:57:03.500 Yes.

00:57:04.180 And I appreciate when he's not

00:57:05.280 talking off an autocue, he can

00:57:06.700 sometimes, you know, say the wrong

00:57:09.200 thing as far as...

00:57:10.220 I mean, that's very loyalist.

00:57:11.200 So gently put.

00:57:13.080 As far as his handlers are

00:57:14.060 concerned.

00:57:15.580 But the problem is that that sort

00:57:18.980 of rhetoric, unintended as it may

00:57:21.860 have been by the leader of the free

00:57:23.740 world, has dire consequences.

00:57:26.000 We spoke about Iran's direct strike

00:57:28.000 on Israel a little earlier.

00:57:29.740 Well, the context of the weeks

00:57:34.220 leading up to Iran taking that

00:57:36.320 unprecedented move of increasingly

00:57:39.040 troubling American rhetoric,

00:57:41.600 criticizing Israel, many, many have

00:57:44.860 said had an undeniable impact and

00:57:48.420 input into Iran's feeling of

00:57:50.640 confidence of striking Israel

00:57:51.860 directly in that fashion.

00:57:53.340 So the position that is taken by

00:57:56.380 politicians around the world, which

00:57:58.580 is undeniably impacted by focus

00:58:01.960 groups and polling numbers and is

00:58:04.240 driven by the propaganda war, which

00:58:07.320 you're both very alive to, that

00:58:11.000 inevitably has that knock-on impact on

00:58:13.900 not just Israel's ability to defend

00:58:16.220 itself properly, you know, and that

00:58:17.920 comes into play when we're talking

00:58:19.020 about arms embargoes or additional

00:58:20.500 pressure or the Americans, you know,

00:58:23.340 for some time saying don't go into

00:58:25.020 rafa, don't finish the job that we've

00:58:26.820 been backing you for months to complete.

00:58:29.240 But it also inevitably encourages

00:58:31.980 Israel's enemies, Iran, certainly, but

00:58:35.080 also Hamas.

00:58:36.560 The notion that still after month nine,

00:58:40.280 they could be maintaining that

00:58:43.260 they're not going to agree to release

00:58:46.360 hostages in exchange for, you know, pauses

00:58:49.980 in the fighting is, I think, undeniably as a

00:58:53.320 result of the encouragement, the sucker

00:58:55.600 that they have been provided, and the

00:58:57.620 language that we have heard extremely

00:59:00.260 disappointingly, extremely misguidedly

00:59:02.020 coming out of prominent politicians

00:59:04.640 around the world.

00:59:05.200 In fact, I think David Cameron even

00:59:06.520 acknowledged this when he was foreign

00:59:07.880 secretary.

00:59:09.180 He said that what had been happening in

00:59:13.220 terms of, and I see it in the context of

00:59:15.460 these calls for an immediate ceasefire,

00:59:17.340 right, that is exactly what Hamas is

00:59:19.160 seeking to achieve.

00:59:20.180 When you think about that rhetoric in the

00:59:23.540 round, the foreign secretary was clear that

00:59:27.740 this inevitably impacted Iran's calculation and

00:59:32.320 its willingness to engage Israel directly in

00:59:34.480 that fashion.

00:59:35.720 And Natasha, so with everything we've

00:59:37.600 discussed, before we ask you our last

00:59:39.880 question, I suppose the most obvious

00:59:42.360 question is, you mentioned your trips to

00:59:44.960 Israel.

00:59:45.440 We know what the situation is and the

00:59:47.780 sentiment is in Gaza and elsewhere.

00:59:50.760 We see what the international context is.

00:59:53.460 You put all that together, is a two-state

00:59:57.560 solution even going to, I mean, there's

00:59:59.480 clearly no appetite for it in Israel anymore.

01:00:01.460 I don't think there's any appetite for it in

01:00:02.840 Gaza, really, from what I understand.

01:00:04.780 Is that even possible?

01:00:06.740 There has been an appetite amongst broad

01:00:10.060 swathes of the political spectrum in Israel for it.

01:00:13.380 That has to be seen, of course, in the context

01:00:15.880 though of Israelis having spent generations

01:00:18.680 now witnessing every security concession made

01:00:22.580 leading to blood on the streets.

01:00:25.240 Oslo gave us an intifada.

01:00:28.120 And, you know, I would encourage you and

01:00:30.700 viewers just to Google image search Israel bus

01:00:34.660 bombings to get a sense of the endless number

01:00:38.980 of suicide attacks that were ripping through

01:00:45.120 Israeli communities after that peace

01:00:49.600 agreement, which is still hailed, was signed.

01:00:52.660 You know, one of the foremost commitments under

01:00:55.460 that would have been renouncing terror.

01:00:57.920 That's never something that the Palestinian

01:00:59.680 leadership engaged in.

01:01:00.880 So, despite that, I think you have seen

01:01:04.860 significant parts of the Israeli public

01:01:08.420 broadly supportive of the notion of a

01:01:12.260 two-state solution.

01:01:13.280 Even now?

01:01:13.800 Even, well, I'm going to take this in stages

01:01:15.740 if I may.

01:01:16.920 Even in the light of the realities of the

01:01:20.540 situation, I think it was, you know, the

01:01:22.580 broad consensus would have been, well, look,

01:01:24.300 obviously it's not possible unless the

01:01:26.340 Palestinians renounce their genocidal

01:01:28.120 intent towards us while they are saying

01:01:31.860 Hamas and the Palestinian Authority also

01:01:34.120 that the Palestinian future state will be

01:01:36.660 used as a launching pad to conduct its

01:01:38.780 genocidal war against the rest of Israel.

01:01:40.980 You know, that obviously needs to change.

01:01:42.540 But in principle, the hope was there.

01:01:45.280 And, of course, if Israel had been living

01:01:46.400 next to Switzerland, there would have been

01:01:47.780 a two-state solution 76 years ago.

01:01:51.220 What you're talking about now is, of course,

01:01:53.960 a different set of state of affairs because

01:01:55.840 the Israeli public has been through a

01:01:58.960 trauma.

01:01:59.880 It has had that naivete which suggested

01:02:02.940 that Hamas might be reformable, beaten

01:02:06.780 out of it in the most brutal way imaginable.

01:02:10.280 And now we're faced with this phrase,

01:02:14.360 two-state solution.

01:02:16.740 I would suggest an empty phrase.

01:02:19.280 I've heard some people referring to it as

01:02:21.280 the two-state delusion.

01:02:22.520 And until we deal with indoctrination

01:02:25.680 and with incentivization to terror,

01:02:28.060 I would also agree that there is nothing

01:02:30.660 to talk about in the context of this empty

01:02:32.760 phrase.

01:02:33.560 But I think there's an additional question

01:02:34.900 that we need to ask ourselves, and that

01:02:36.560 is what is the damage of continuing to

01:02:39.920 promote a two-state delusion at the expense

01:02:44.160 of doing the hard work of forging a possible

01:02:48.420 future peaceful solution?

01:02:50.280 And when I say the hard work, I mean, it

01:02:52.440 starts with

01:02:53.440 getting rid of the indoctrination, getting

01:02:56.060 rid of the

01:02:56.420 incentivization to terror.

01:02:58.100 That's the starting point.

01:02:59.800 And then you have to take generations,

01:03:02.120 at least a generation,

01:03:03.560 to allow that new generation to grow up

01:03:06.820 without being indoctrinated, to want to kill

01:03:10.260 all the Jews.

01:03:11.840 And at that point, you can start to talk

01:03:13.760 about what the potential possible solutions

01:03:16.440 are.

01:03:16.740 It's never going to arise out of a handshake

01:03:19.100 in the Rose Garden of the White House

01:03:20.720 or an American president signing a piece

01:03:22.720 of paper, albeit that the Abraham Accords

01:03:25.580 under the previous administration sent shockwaves,

01:03:29.580 I think, through those of the political

01:03:32.840 establishment that subscribe to the mantra of

01:03:37.680 former Secretary of State John Kerry.

01:03:39.460 In 2016 at the Saban conference, he said,

01:03:43.000 Mark my words, there will never be a separate

01:03:46.240 peace between Israel and the Arab world without

01:03:48.140 a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

01:03:50.840 Well, he looks a little bit silly now.

01:03:53.340 And so do all of those that subscribe to that

01:03:56.080 false approach.

01:03:59.060 What the Abraham Accords shows us is that

01:04:02.100 people-to-people cooperation, which existed for

01:04:05.060 a significant time before those pieces of paper

01:04:08.000 were signed, economic links and de-radicalization

01:04:12.580 hold the key to future peace in the Middle East.

01:04:18.100 They held the key to peace in the Middle East

01:04:19.680 in the context of the Abraham Accords,

01:04:20.920 and I think they do so with respect to Israel

01:04:23.540 and the Palestinian Arabs also.

01:04:24.820 But that can never be based on a rewriting of history,

01:04:30.560 on this propaganda war.

01:04:32.000 So we have to be clear that when people say,

01:04:36.020 you know, there was a Palestine and they had their

01:04:38.680 land taken away from them, you cannot have a peace,

01:04:43.760 a future peaceful solution which is based on a rewriting

01:04:46.820 of history or false information like that.

01:04:49.340 I am the granddaughter of Palestinians.

01:04:52.200 The British mandate in Palestine, in which there was

01:04:55.020 a local Arab and a local Jewish population,

01:04:57.860 is not in any way, of course, the way it is presented

01:05:01.420 by some as a prior Palestinian state.

01:05:04.400 That is simply a misrepresentation of history.

01:05:07.180 It is false.

01:05:08.240 But what this propaganda war has left us with

01:05:12.080 is this very simple, soundbitey, false narrative

01:05:17.240 which underpins the promotion of this idea

01:05:21.480 of a two-state solution.

01:05:23.480 But if we come from the right starting point,

01:05:26.180 which includes that this idea of an occupation

01:05:29.300 is a misapplication of international law

01:05:31.760 and it is not accurate.

01:05:34.360 I don't know if we've got time to go into it now,

01:05:37.120 but there are really fundamental aspects

01:05:40.980 of international law that are being inverted

01:05:43.700 and ridden over roughshod.

01:05:45.720 And actually, it's probably important

01:05:47.000 to just go into it briefly.

01:05:49.200 There is a critical rule of customary international law

01:05:53.400 that determines the borders of newly emerging states

01:05:56.900 at their moment of independence.

01:05:58.880 It is called uti possedetis iuris.

01:06:01.380 It's supplied universally wherever there is no agreement

01:06:04.360 to the contrary.

01:06:05.480 So it's the default rule.

01:06:07.020 And in Israel's case in 1948,

01:06:09.340 it determined that the pre-existing administrative lines

01:06:13.240 of the British mandate that preceded the state of Israel

01:06:16.060 became Israel's international borders

01:06:19.240 when it declared independence.

01:06:21.280 This is the rule that the pre-existing administrative lines

01:06:23.680 become the new lines,

01:06:24.700 the new borders of the state.

01:06:26.280 And the reason that it was introduced

01:06:28.180 was to promote stability and certainty

01:06:30.580 and to prevent fracticidal struggles.

01:06:34.440 The International Court of Justice outlined

01:06:37.240 these justifications for it

01:06:39.440 when it recognized that it had become established.

01:06:41.900 It was introduced in the 19th century,

01:06:43.740 applied in South America with the withdrawal of the Spanish.

01:06:46.740 It's supplied in Asia and Africa,

01:06:48.920 also to the dissolution of the former communist federations.

01:06:52.460 Ukraine's borders followed uti possedetis iuris.

01:06:57.940 And that's quite a critical comparison

01:06:59.640 because I think the three of us would agree

01:07:02.300 that Russia has been in occupation of Crimea from Ukraine.

01:07:07.380 Why is that?

01:07:08.820 Because Crimea was part of Ukraine

01:07:10.920 according to the rule of uti possedetis iuris

01:07:13.200 at Ukraine's formation.

01:07:16.100 Well, in the same way when Israel came into existence,

01:07:19.240 the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gaza

01:07:22.160 fell within that territory

01:07:24.600 of the administrative lines of the pre-existing British mandate.

01:07:28.320 And that's critical

01:07:29.040 because immediately in this war of annihilation

01:07:31.840 that I've described,

01:07:32.620 Jordan occupies the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Israel

01:07:35.800 and Egypt occupies Gaza.

01:07:38.800 And that occupation ended in 1967

01:07:40.720 when Israel recovered that territory.

01:07:42.860 That's when this allegation of occupation

01:07:46.940 for many people is dated from.

01:07:49.600 The problem with that

01:07:50.380 is you cannot occupy

01:07:51.780 what is already your own sovereign territory.

01:07:53.920 If Ukraine was to retake Crimea and hold it,

01:07:57.700 no one would say that was occupation of Crimea.

01:08:00.100 From Russia, indeed.

01:08:01.600 Right.

01:08:02.060 Okay.

01:08:02.440 And that is a stark parallel and comparison.

01:08:04.420 Now, what Israel did in 1967

01:08:06.140 is it applied its law, administration and jurisdiction

01:08:09.840 in full over East Jerusalem.

01:08:12.300 It reunited the city,

01:08:13.660 but it didn't do so in the West Bank.

01:08:16.180 Instead, it applied a temporary framework.

01:08:18.800 Why?

01:08:19.460 Because under the Land for Peace formula,

01:08:22.300 it expected that it would give up

01:08:24.360 some of the West Bank or Judea and Samaria

01:08:27.000 to Jordan in pursuit of peace.

01:08:29.620 But when the 1994 peace agreement with Jordan

01:08:31.760 finally came about,

01:08:33.240 Jordan didn't want anything to do with the West Bank.

01:08:35.140 So this temporary administrative framework

01:08:37.480 that Israel established in 1967

01:08:39.040 held until the Oslo Accords

01:08:41.680 and the creation of areas A, B and C

01:08:43.420 that we've described.

01:08:44.840 But the application of this term occupation

01:08:47.760 is it's another blood libel

01:08:49.120 because it has no basis in international law.

01:08:51.780 It is used as a political term

01:08:53.080 and the preface to it,

01:08:55.880 this illegal occupation,

01:08:57.520 which is so often referred to,

01:08:59.060 is also only ever applied to Israel.

01:09:01.460 There is no concept of illegal,

01:09:03.500 a broadest concept of illegal occupation

01:09:05.240 in international law.

01:09:06.120 And in all the instances,

01:09:08.560 situations of real occupation

01:09:10.280 in the context of that

01:09:12.800 which is envisaged by the Geneva Conventions

01:09:15.200 and the context of, you know,

01:09:17.140 the real transfer of populations

01:09:19.000 in Cambodia, Vietnam,

01:09:21.980 in Nagoro-Karabakh,

01:09:23.540 in northern Cyprus,

01:09:25.660 none of these cases

01:09:27.720 has this allegation

01:09:29.980 of illegal occupation

01:09:31.260 or illegal settlements even

01:09:32.580 been advanced.

01:09:34.060 So this is another example

01:09:35.440 of a modern blood libel

01:09:36.700 being deployed against Israel

01:09:38.720 in order to shape the discussion,

01:09:42.080 in order to shape

01:09:42.800 the international politics

01:09:44.020 and diplomacy,

01:09:45.200 in order then to put pressure on Israel.

01:09:47.400 And we've seen the consequences of that,

01:09:49.240 I'm afraid,

01:09:49.840 in so many respects.

01:09:51.420 This is what led to the 7th of October.

01:09:53.360 Natasha, it's been a wonderful interview.

01:09:56.060 Thank you for coming on.

01:09:57.180 Before we head over to our locals

01:09:58.640 where our supporters

01:10:00.560 put their questions to you,

01:10:02.460 our final question is always the same.

01:10:04.140 What is the one thing

01:10:04.780 we're not talking about

01:10:05.760 that we really should be?

01:10:08.140 Before Natasha answers,

01:10:09.620 when the interview is over,

01:10:11.120 make sure you click the link

01:10:12.200 in the description

01:10:12.860 and head over to our locals

01:10:14.360 to see this.

01:10:15.800 Keir Starmer is on record

01:10:16.860 as saying he wants to pass a law

01:10:18.620 to ban Islamophobia.

01:10:21.360 What are your thoughts on Islamophobia?

01:10:22.360 on Islamophobia being banned?

01:10:24.520 People are talking,

01:10:25.420 oh, we need to come crack down

01:10:27.040 harder on anti-Semitism.

01:10:29.660 I mean, where do you stand on that?

01:10:32.000 What are your views

01:10:32.840 on the three European states,

01:10:34.500 that's Ireland, Norway and Spain,

01:10:36.180 who have recognised

01:10:37.020 the Palestinian state recently

01:10:38.520 and the declaration

01:10:39.240 of the current government

01:10:40.340 in their election manifesto

01:10:41.820 to do likewise?

01:10:42.600 I don't pretend to be across

01:10:45.820 all of your content,

01:10:46.920 so if you have covered this,

01:10:48.580 please, please come back to me.

01:10:50.560 You're not getting booked again.

01:10:51.460 But, I'll do my homework

01:10:55.660 between now and then.

01:10:58.560 But that being said,

01:11:00.500 there is something that I think

01:11:02.020 is not getting enough attention.

01:11:04.160 And it's the phenomenon

01:11:05.260 that we're seeing

01:11:05.980 across our universities.

01:11:07.140 Now, we've seen it

01:11:08.420 in the context

01:11:08.920 of these encampments

01:11:09.980 and the vicious anti-Semitism

01:11:12.000 that we've seen,

01:11:13.180 you know, many of them

01:11:14.220 essentially pro-Hamas encampments.

01:11:16.880 But I think we really need

01:11:18.000 to be asking ourselves,

01:11:19.660 how have we enabled

01:11:20.940 or allowed, facilitated

01:11:22.720 a generation of young people

01:11:25.260 to have grown up

01:11:26.760 with what seems a vacuum,

01:11:29.080 a complete lack of appreciation

01:11:30.620 of the freedoms

01:11:32.660 that we enjoy,

01:11:34.400 Western, liberal,

01:11:35.580 democratic values.

01:11:37.620 And that vacuum

01:11:39.320 which seems to have been

01:11:40.540 taken over by extremists,

01:11:44.320 by the supporters of terrorists,

01:11:46.600 where you have seen

01:11:47.460 these young people

01:11:48.320 find a common purpose

01:11:49.780 in, you know,

01:11:50.840 coming together in tents

01:11:52.020 and feeling as though

01:11:53.760 they are fighting for something,

01:11:56.240 feeling that unity

01:11:57.400 without properly processing

01:12:00.140 that they are standing up

01:12:01.960 in defence of internationally

01:12:03.020 prescribed terror organisations.

01:12:05.180 And I think we have

01:12:06.200 to ask ourselves

01:12:07.020 as societies

01:12:07.900 some extremely hard questions

01:12:10.700 about how we have allowed

01:12:12.700 that to happen.

01:12:14.300 If it is something endemic

01:12:15.680 in our education systems,

01:12:17.540 even before higher education,

01:12:20.120 then that is something

01:12:21.180 that we need to be

01:12:22.680 far better able to talk about

01:12:24.820 and then ultimately grapple with

01:12:26.340 because that's critical

01:12:27.520 for the future

01:12:28.280 of the United States

01:12:29.920 Europe, the UK,

01:12:32.120 not least, you know,

01:12:33.560 the impact that it has

01:12:34.500 necessarily on discussions

01:12:35.580 in the Middle East.

01:12:37.180 Natasha, thank you very much.

01:12:38.420 Head on over to Locals

01:12:39.540 where we ask Natasha

01:12:40.600 your questions.

01:12:43.080 If there was no ICC

01:12:44.540 and ICF,

01:12:45.960 do you think Hamas

01:12:46.720 would still use women

01:12:47.580 and children as shields

01:12:48.580 knowing that it is not

01:12:49.880 a deterrent in Israel

01:12:50.840 attacking,

01:12:51.720 nor would it help

01:12:52.500 to turn Israel's allies

01:12:53.860 against them?

01:12:54.480 Thank you.

01:12:54.540 Thank you.

01:12:59.920 Thank you.

01:13:01.720 Thank you.

01:13:04.760 Thank you.

01:13:17.460 Thank you.

TRIGGERnometry - July 14, 2024

＂There is No Genocide, No Apartheid, No Occupation＂ - Natasha Hausdorff

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