TRIGGERnometry - ＂There's No Justification for Another Lockdown＂

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:00:40.500 for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our brilliant guest today

00:00:46.120 and very timely i dare say uh is a biochemical engineer and a corporate complex problem solver

00:00:52.000 iva cummings welcome to trigonometry great to be here guys it's great to have you thank you so much

00:00:57.740 for coming on the show. If people don't know who you are, just give them a little brief overview

00:01:02.220 of who are you, how are you, where you are. How do you find yourself sitting here talking to us?

00:01:07.380 Yeah, okay. Well, brief version, I'm a biochemical engineer originally. I'm around 30 years in

00:01:12.800 corporate kind of high volume manufacturer, medical device and electrofluidics, all kinds

00:01:18.060 of stuff. But my primary role has been as a complex problem solving leader, large teams

00:01:23.820 across the world and I've also been a technical manager with teams directly reporting to me

00:01:28.780 but again nearly always involved in problem solving multi-factor complex stuff so it's just

00:01:34.140 been my whole life and around eight years ago I had some blood test issues so I began to research

00:01:40.120 chronic disease and I discovered a lot that we have not been told so I got into that whole field

00:01:46.980 and then more recently in March the corona thing kind of happened and by April it was quite clear

00:01:53.540 that they weren't removing the lockdowns appropriately after we'd flattened the curve.

00:01:58.200 And I began to focus more and more on the virology, the epidemiology, you know, all aspects

00:02:03.720 of the science and indeed the lockdown so-called science.

00:02:07.360 And I've been on that now for many, many months, getting a lot of material out there just to

00:02:12.360 show people the data, the science, the logic, the rational approach, the balanced approach

00:02:17.880 and counter the unusual hysteria that's actually occurred.

00:02:23.540 And for anyone who's watching, who doesn't know who you are, I should say you're not one of these 5G David Icke people by any stretch of their imagination at all.

00:02:32.600 But there's a lot of misinformation flying about.

00:02:35.380 But you've obviously been interviewed on a bunch of mainstream shows and all that sort of thing.

00:02:40.520 So take us right back to the beginning, Ivan, because you mentioned the initial lockdown.

00:02:44.680 You mentioned flattening the curve.

00:02:46.560 Was that the right decision then?

00:02:49.240 Yeah, well, you can never make the perfect decision.

00:02:52.120 But I understood it then and supported it because as we came into late March, there was a lot of concern.

00:02:58.260 There was an enormous amount of fear.

00:02:59.940 The fear engine had already got a big head of steam.

00:03:03.920 So I said, well, OK, there's a lot of fear.

00:03:06.820 So why not do a short couple of weeks kind of lockdown and try and stymie the virus spread and make sure the hospitals don't overload?

00:03:14.720 Because if the hospitals overload, you get excess deaths by lack of care.

00:03:19.120 So that's a very lofty goal.

00:03:22.120 So why not do it? Now, I didn't believe it would make any real difference to lockdown because of the dormancy of viruses and because it was a high or virus that had been spreading for months and it was seasonally triggering, I figured, from my knowledge.

00:03:37.060 and also Professor Michael Levitt, the Nobel Prize winner, who I interviewed months ago and

00:03:42.980 met in London for our new coronavirus movie, interviewed him in 4K. He had done all the

00:03:49.500 calculations from the China situation in February, and he had seen that the curve of mortality and

00:03:55.320 impact follows a specific shape, kind of independent of lockdowns. And he had verified

00:04:01.760 that for the Italian data. So he was already working out that this was not what they perceived,

00:04:07.740 that the lockdowns would not do much that cause enormous economic damage, and that the curve

00:04:13.620 would be followed kind of regardless. So at the time, I thought lockdown is not going to do much

00:04:19.720 at this stage. But you know what, why not? And it was really in April, then I began to get more and

00:04:27.140 more concerned when there was no desire to take out the lockdowns once the curve had turned.

00:04:33.200 You know, the peak in the UK was, I think it was April 11th, and it was coming down and the

00:04:38.000 hospitals were beginning to empty out. So we were clearly in a seasonal virus, similar to a very bad

00:04:44.280 flu, and it was coming down following its pattern. So why not begin to take out the lockdowns?

00:04:50.940 But there was no desire to do that. In Ireland, there was a four-month plan put in at the end of

00:04:55.980 April. A four-month plan over the summer when our hospitals are emptying out. Kind of weird.

00:05:03.640 So I really dug in there. And Ivor, we're talking about lockdown. In London, we're just about to go

00:05:11.240 into a second lockdown. They're going to do a local lockdown that's going to come in as of

00:05:16.180 Saturday. Why is it that governments are still pursuing this policy if, as you claim, that it

00:05:23.500 simply doesn't work? Well, it will do something. But I agree at the moment, there is no justification

00:05:31.060 whatsoever. I think there's an engine driving this of fear and ideology. So there's a belief

00:05:39.380 system throughout the advisors and the government that lockdowns are a hammer that can crack the

00:05:46.380 not. There's five published papers now that have actually analyzed the data for Europe,

00:05:53.400 retrospectively real data, not Neil Ferguson modeling pie in the sky, but actual data,

00:05:59.200 and have come to the conclusion that I said. But it appears they're not interested in the

00:06:04.420 science of the data. They've got an ideology that lockdown helps, and they've got a fear

00:06:09.880 coming into the winter. Now, all of the science would suggest that this winter will be not

00:06:15.420 massively different than prior ones with or without lockdown, because these viruses go

00:06:21.400 through an enormous hump when they're new to a naive, immuno-naive population. But then you get

00:06:27.800 three key things that I always mention. There's many, but three key things. You get the passing

00:06:33.260 of the most susceptible, so that changes the curve. You get immunity building in the community,

00:06:40.080 you know, T cell mucosal and everything. And you have seasonal change coming into the summer and

00:06:47.400 out of the winter. So those three things kind of acted on the curve and brought it down.

00:06:51.980 As we come into the winter, we're going to see more respiratory challenges. And because we're

00:06:58.760 testing in a hyper fashion with PCR tests, we're going to see SARS-CoV-2 virus more often in the

00:07:07.060 winter. We know that from prior research on coronaviruses. So we're going to see things

00:07:11.720 happen. But the question is, are we in immediate threat of a rapid hockey stick rise like back in

00:07:19.920 March? And the fact is, look at the data for England. There's a steady rise. And in fact,

00:07:25.400 it's mostly in northern England that probably didn't get hit as much in the first wave.

00:07:29.640 it's completely controlled we know from spain who's way ahead of uk they've been flattening

00:07:37.160 now for around five or six weeks you know at around two deaths per million people per day

00:07:43.420 with the virus not necessarily driven directly from it and france has several weeks of flattening

00:07:50.000 so we can see what happens in our neighbors a flattening and the uk if people want to think

00:07:57.480 of it, in a real epidemic like back in March, you have a near vertical increase in impacts like we

00:08:03.180 saw. What we have now is a nearly horizontal steady increase. There's simply no justification

00:08:10.700 for lockdown type behavior that's more appropriate to a new virus coming into society with everyone

00:08:18.560 exposed and a massive rise before a fall. It just doesn't make sense now scientifically.

00:08:25.500 Ivor, but hold on.

00:08:26.480 You're talking about science.

00:08:27.800 If I put myself in the shoes of an ordinary person,

00:08:30.440 I mean, the polling shows that you talk about fear.

00:08:33.260 It seems to be working.

00:08:34.880 40% of the public in this country

00:08:36.740 think that we're not locking down hard enough.

00:08:40.320 There's widespread support

00:08:41.880 for many of the measures that we're seeing.

00:08:43.740 We're told that over 50,000 people

00:08:45.960 have now died with the coronavirus.

00:08:48.200 And with the width of thing,

00:08:49.840 which you mentioned is obviously there for debate,

00:08:52.280 but a lot of people have died.

00:08:53.620 We do seem to have excess deaths this year, right?

00:08:57.800 Isn't this, you know, a real health emergency?

00:09:01.000 Surely something must be done.

00:09:03.320 Well, what you described there, Constantine, exactly, it was a major issue.

00:09:08.740 The 50,000 were March, April, May.

00:09:12.820 That's a reality.

00:09:14.120 No one can deny that SARS-CoV-2 is a potent virus, especially for aged or, you know, immunocompromised, certainly.

00:09:22.260 But we're kind of talking about now where the UK is around one death per million people per day.

00:09:29.020 It's nothing like the actual epidemic.

00:09:32.580 So, you know, we either talk about the epidemic or we talk about now.

00:09:37.320 So UK had got a very soft 2019 season in terms of excess mortality.

00:09:44.080 And we see this in Sweden also and in Ireland figures.

00:09:47.580 therefore 2020 was going to have inevitably an increase especially with SARS-CoV-2 and that's

00:09:56.480 what we saw and it was tragic to give an example though for Ireland because I have more accurate

00:10:01.820 figures in Ireland we had around 1600 put down as deceased from SARS-CoV-2 back in March April

00:10:09.800 That was our epidemic. 95% of those people who died were never given an intensive care unit to

00:10:18.240 save them. And you might go, but wow, that's terrible. Well, no, it was an ethical decision

00:10:24.100 because the reality was that 95% were so aged or ill with other problems independent of COVID

00:10:32.020 that it wasn't appropriate to try and save them anyway. So not to take from any deaths, but

00:10:38.160 we have to have a perspective here. If 95% were that type of person, we have to have a sense of

00:10:45.220 perspective. And Ivor, what do you say to those people who go, look, hang on a second, this is a

00:10:50.320 new virus. We don't know what the long-term implications for the human body are. It's never

00:10:55.040 been exposed to this type of virus. There's lots of people who've lost a sense of taste, a sense

00:11:00.580 of smell for many, many months. There's a case about the divers that they went diving and their

00:11:05.300 lung capacity was reduced dramatically as a result yeah so the the long-term effects are are not

00:11:12.640 unique to SARS-CoV-2 so influenzas can leave very long-term effects as well and SARS-CoV-2 does

00:11:20.120 attack the vasculature or the vessels in the lungs so there will be long-term effects mostly they

00:11:26.140 will resolve and they'll be a very small percentage of people who will have significant ones but no

00:11:31.980 denies them. However, let's stick to the science. There's 40,000 publications now on SARS-CoV-2 since

00:11:42.100 February, March. There's a mountain of science published. There isn't one credible publication

00:11:48.640 showing an extraordinary exceptional effect that you just described. So in nine months,

00:11:55.620 plenty of time and everything's been researched and published on. I mean, you wouldn't believe

00:12:00.620 some of the papers and the weird stuff that they're looking into. But there's nothing really

00:12:05.220 on that. And I think that's quite telling, you know, that yes, there are long-term effects with

00:12:11.240 influenzas, with shingles, with many viruses, but no one ever before focused on them too closely.

00:12:18.040 Whereas now in this environment, every shred of negative impact is being exalted. That's my

00:12:26.000 perception. So I'm waiting for some published science on those effects and to compare it with

00:12:31.080 the published science on influenza long-term effects and make that compare. And Ivor, the one

00:12:38.640 thing that you pointed out, which I found very, very interesting, is one of the effects of lockdown

00:12:43.100 that people don't seem to be discussing is the fact that we're not intermingling with one another.

00:12:47.880 We're not socializing in groups. Our immune system isn't being challenged. If anything,

00:12:53.540 we're becoming weaker and more robust because we are effectively isolating ourselves.

00:12:57.720 Less robust.

00:12:58.640 Yeah, that's right, less robust.

00:13:00.860 And as a result of that, when the winter comes along,

00:13:04.380 more people are going to get very sick because their immune systems aren't as strong.

00:13:08.880 Yeah, well, in principle, that would apply from the science,

00:13:13.580 but quantifying it is very hard to say.

00:13:15.760 So I suspect that for all what was done all summer,

00:13:19.920 that people still went to the stores. They still did mix. So it may not be a very big effect.

00:13:27.240 But I did say in one of my videos, however, that in the summer, the most astonishing thing

00:13:33.640 almost in history for me happened. So right in the middle of the summer, when the hospitals were

00:13:40.580 empty, when the issue was down on the floor, as we predicted in March, April, you know, seasonal

00:13:46.580 virus, they brought in mandatory masks. So you've got to actually stop for a moment and think about

00:13:54.400 that. How on earth could you ever make a logic for bringing in mandatory masks at the nadir

00:14:00.580 in the summer? I mean, maybe in October, you might think about it. Maybe. Whatever about

00:14:07.140 the effectiveness of masks. But it was brought in around June, July. So I made the point that

00:14:13.480 there's no exit strategy for that. So essentially, de facto, a decision was made in the UK and

00:14:20.260 Ireland and across Europe to bring in face masks for the citizenry in perpetuity. Because there's

00:14:29.220 no exit strategy. If you take them in at the nadir and make them mandatory, how would you ever take

00:14:34.920 them out? So that's one point. But the other point I made was, to your point, that suppressing a safe

00:14:42.260 spread of a virus in the summer is going against all of evolution. We knew there were no impacts

00:14:48.180 in the population. So if anything, you'd want to have safe spread in the summer and some degree

00:14:54.860 of immunity gained in the population, which will actually protect grandma and grandpa in the coming

00:15:02.200 winter by getting more immunity in the safe summer. So if anything, the strategy should have

00:15:08.420 been to remove all restrictions all summer and just to illustrate that we had the situation i

00:15:16.660 think dorset and what's your other famous cornwall around two million people in the uk because they

00:15:23.860 couldn't really travel so easily piled into cornwall i think the population more than doubled

00:15:29.000 and you couldn't get a table booking anywhere i checked the veracity of this and for three and a

00:15:35.380 half months, Cornwall was overpacked. And a lot of that was before the masks. And guess what? In all

00:15:43.240 that time of three and a half months, there was no ICU action at all. And there were zero deaths.

00:15:51.000 So it just illustrates the point that it was exactly as we said in April, it's a seasonal

00:15:57.660 virus and the summer is going to be a long nothing burger. And that's the time to allow

00:16:03.760 evolution to work and then worry again when you come into next winter what kind of things you want

00:16:09.840 to do you talk about what kind of things you want to do and you mentioned masks uh very quickly i

00:16:15.840 want to ask you a couple of questions but the first one what is the science on masks do they

00:16:20.160 work to stop this spread of this disease okay there's no there's never a definitive answer in

00:16:26.300 science there's never any absolute proof uh really there's just evidence so i just say that there's

00:16:32.600 40 years of science that's been pretty much unanimous that masks don't really assist worth

00:16:38.920 a damn with influenza-type viral transmission. Many, many papers, and there's many, many studies.

00:16:47.040 Just so the listener understands, that all changed in May, June 2020, and there were a flurry of

00:16:55.620 low evidence strength papers came out associational studies suddenly saying that masks could be good

00:17:04.260 um so i'll hold judgment on it but my attitude is because i'm a person of science i would tend

00:17:11.740 to go with four decades of published science rather than four weeks of hurried low-grade

00:17:18.460 evidence papers that's just the way i roll sounds very conspiratorial to me uh no but well there's

00:17:28.520 no conspiracy it's just that the science the saying masks are useful is brand new and like

00:17:35.340 anything brand new and you got to be careful to uh take it with the preponderance of the evidence

00:17:41.880 in a balanced and proportionate scientific thinking manner so there's no real conspiracy

00:17:47.660 I was being sarcastic, Ivor. Sorry.

00:17:51.080 But don't worry about it. Those are the normal reaction to his jokes.

00:17:54.460 We're both comedians, but neither of us has been on stage for about eight months.

00:17:58.180 So the jokes are landing very, very flat at the moment.

00:18:00.840 Mate, don't bring me into this. That was your joke.

00:18:03.420 Yeah, you're responsible for it. It's your fault. Anyway.

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00:19:17.840 But let's talk about, I mean, one of the things you talked about was essentially that the governments of our different European countries are essentially mostly pursuing ideological policies as opposed to science-based policies.

00:19:30.480 while telling us they're following the science,

00:19:32.920 which is a bit of an absurdity in and of itself

00:19:34.820 because there's clearly no consensus on this issue among scientists.

00:19:38.800 But as two comedians, we obviously are not in a position

00:19:42.280 to judge the medical data or the scientific data.

00:19:46.220 Although we do.

00:19:46.980 Although we do, obviously.

00:19:48.600 But it doesn't seem to make any logical sense.

00:19:52.480 So let me just talk through where we were coming at it from.

00:19:55.200 First lockdown, we don't know what's going on.

00:19:57.420 It's a new disease.

00:19:58.320 the government is saying we need to lock down. Well, maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe an

00:20:03.500 overreaction is the right reaction, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, you know, in London,

00:20:10.260 for example, they're about to introduce as we record this tier two lockdown. Last week,

00:20:16.720 there was like one or two or three deaths. Literally, you could count the number of deaths

00:20:20.620 from COVID on one hand. And yet we're locking down. Increasingly, it feels like to a lot of

00:20:26.080 people none of this makes sense anymore it used to make sense now it doesn't make sense so why

00:20:32.780 surely it's not some plucky youtubers like us who are right about this and all the governments

00:20:38.580 of europe surely they're getting this right and we're just three idiots well yeah except um that's

00:20:46.560 not the case honestly with that said and we have professor michael levitt nobel prize winner we

00:20:55.400 We have Professor Carl Hennigan in the UK, Oxford Centre of Evidence-Based Medicine.

00:21:00.420 We have Professor John Lee.

00:21:03.240 We have Professor Sinatra Gupta from Oxford, you know, who's a mathematical epidemiologist.

00:21:10.140 We have Professor Carl Sikora.

00:21:12.320 We have Professor Beda Stadler, who I went to Switzerland a few weeks ago and interviewed for our movie, who's the vaccine pope of Europe.

00:21:20.180 He's an industry guy, and he's the Fauci of Switzerland.

00:21:23.180 and he's emeritus professor of immunology. I could actually go on for a long time with this list,

00:21:29.800 but one thing is common to them all. They're all on our side completely. So it's not the case that

00:21:37.340 it's just YouTubers. We have the Great Barrington Declaration now that's on the web. It's been

00:21:43.520 signed by around half a million people, set up by Professor Gupta from Oxford and two professors from

00:21:50.180 Stanford and Harvard, respectively, medicine, epidemiology, etc. And there's, I think,

00:21:57.760 35,000 scientists, doctors, and specialists have signed it specifically. And they're all

00:22:04.300 pushing for what I would push for, what makes scientific sense. If we can lock down the whole

00:22:11.580 country with 60 million people with some degree of success in viral transmission, of course we can

00:22:20.600 much easier protect the at-risk and we know exactly who they are. Exactly. We could put them

00:22:28.780 up in five-star hotels, you know, with concierge service, with PPA people, PPE protected people

00:22:37.420 serving them for a hundredth of the cost of what's being done. It's a no-brainer. And that's

00:22:44.060 what the Great Barrington Declaration, in essence, asks. Below 60, if you're reasonably healthy,

00:22:50.920 the risks are vanishingly small. Even in the epidemic, that was kind of the case. But now,

00:22:57.960 with the horizontal slow rise, it's a hundred times the case. They need to run the economy

00:23:04.700 and get the economy working again.

00:23:06.960 We need to get cancer diagnoses back.

00:23:10.120 There's a ton of death

00:23:11.160 that's going to occur due to that problem.

00:23:13.380 Depression, suicides,

00:23:15.560 economic catastrophe causes death and suffering

00:23:18.620 that will utterly eclipse coronavirus problems.

00:23:23.540 Even during the epidemic, never mind now.

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00:25:18.300 And Ivor, this is, I think, is a point that we talk about a lot. It's a point that has meant

00:25:23.340 that I've lost friends is a point that gets people very angry because the moment you mention it you

00:25:28.160 become a right-wing Nazi etc etc but people don't seem to understand what happens when there is an

00:25:34.980 economic crash not only to physical health but also to mental health. It's an absolute disaster

00:25:41.860 there are plenty of studies on this and people argue that they're associational data but yes

00:25:47.460 increased mortality and all kinds of bad things come from economic challenges and this economic

00:25:54.820 challenge is enormous and because we have five papers now and more actually analyses showing

00:26:02.000 that lockdown has a very limited benefit it's all cost the cost is enormous compared to the

00:26:09.040 supposed benefit so it's an own goal of of spectacular proportions and now they want to go

00:26:16.500 and kick the ball into their own net again and again. It's fascinating to watch. It's frightening

00:26:22.940 to watch. It's scary. I have five children. I'm focused on the next generation. You know, I'm

00:26:29.120 going to die. We're all going to die. And I mean, the average age in Ireland was 82 of the deceased,

00:26:37.160 sadly, and 84 was the median. And the latest figures brought out for coronavirus, the WHO

00:26:44.540 last night quietly put Professor John Ioannidis' analysis on their website very quietly. But his

00:26:53.560 infection fatality rate, which the WHO and everyone at the start when everyone went crazy

00:26:59.520 was thinking was a 3%, 4%, is actually 0.2% and 0.05% if you're below 70 years old. So the data

00:27:12.040 is all there now but everyone is acting like nothing was learned in the last six months

00:27:18.960 it's like a vacuum it's like we're back in march now facing into a genuine epidemic

00:27:25.100 it's like we learn nothing it's like they're i don't know like mice in a wheel they're just

00:27:31.340 trapped in some kind of hamster wheel okay so if that being the case why are we still

00:27:37.960 and it's not just the uk it's lots of other countries why are we still pressing ahead with

00:27:44.260 something that will guarantee our own economic destruction oh that's a big one so i roughly look

00:27:51.820 at it that there's two primary mechanisms of driving this one of them is local in country

00:27:58.880 so the government's got enormous fear back in march and they inflicted enormous fear on the

00:28:06.080 population you could argue it was justified because it was their strategy to get the population

00:28:10.940 fearful to use the media social media get people challenging other people amongst the community

00:28:16.800 and shaming them that's actually published and that was to make sure they follow the guidelines

00:28:21.700 so you could say okay i don't i don't think it's very honest or ethical but but okay we let it go

00:28:27.840 they did too good a job and they're still doing too good a job so the fear created in the population

00:28:35.040 now has gone into irrationality or arguably psychosis, given the actual data. And that

00:28:40.740 psychosis is being projected back on the governments that are now demanding the governments

00:28:45.740 do more, as you mentioned. So they've created this. In engineering, there's a lot of self-reinforcing

00:28:51.260 loops that can occur. They're catastrophic. In this case, it certainly is. They've created a

00:28:56.900 self-reinforcing loop that's catastrophic. But that's an in-country thing. And you could also

00:29:02.460 add to that a little extra nuance. The politicians who are realizing now the magnitude of the mistake,

00:29:09.600 if they don't lock down coming into the winter, and the winter turns out to be as I would expect,

00:29:17.360 people are going to ask a lot of questions. They're going to say, but hold on, we didn't

00:29:21.300 really lock down going into the winter. And it was kind of like a similar excess mortality to

00:29:25.320 previous years. And that means this is really a seasonal flu-like illness. We thought it was some

00:29:31.120 kind of crazy thing. So they're actually incentivized now to lockdown so they can

00:29:36.880 credit a normal winter. They can credit the lockdowns that they're doing. Do you see the

00:29:42.580 deceit? So there may be a big enough factor there in the people in politics who are more knowing

00:29:48.720 about this. They'll know they need a kind of placebo lockdown to cover the story. So that's

00:29:55.740 not conspiratorial. That's just politics. And I'm a long time in corporate politics. So that's why

00:30:00.640 recognize these things so easily. But then that's the in-country, and that's a huge engine that's

00:30:07.000 driving this. But we've got to keep in mind, too, that there are international engines, too. Like

00:30:13.700 the WHO has been very clear in driving all of these strategies from March, lockdowns. Their

00:30:20.420 own guidelines up to November 2019 said for pandemics, no isolation, no lockdowns. I have

00:30:27.720 the published paper november 2019 in february march they decided let's copy china you know i

00:30:34.960 don't know what their reasoning was but they decided that but they have kept pressure on and

00:30:39.740 that's international true to every advisory body in every country is coming down to do this kind

00:30:46.240 of stuff and the world economic forum has been very public very powerful international organization

00:30:53.060 I think your own Matt Hancock was enthusing about them back in 2018 and the fourth industrial

00:30:59.820 revolution and their great reset. They've been very public. This is an enormous opportunity,

00:31:06.580 apparently, this COVID crisis, to get their strategies implemented for tracking, tracing,

00:31:13.120 control, and stuff. And they're public, so it's not a conspiracy when they tell you.

00:31:17.720 So I could go on, but let's just say there is that second engine from the start of international organizations of great influence that's probably causing a lot of the similarity between countries, as well as a Me Too kind of thing going on between countries.

00:31:35.380 Sweden is the exception.

00:31:37.440 So Sweden has proved what I'm saying, and they've done it elegantly.

00:31:43.140 Firstly, they followed the traditional science on pandemics up to November 19.

00:31:49.040 They actually followed it perfectly, and it worked.

00:31:53.080 The second thing is they never brought in masks for the same reason I said.

00:31:57.520 Not a conspiracy.

00:31:58.840 They looked at the science, and they said there's potential downsides, and there's no strong evidence supporting it.

00:32:04.660 Therefore, we are going to stay scientific thinkers.

00:32:07.840 We're not doing it.

00:32:08.820 So they followed the science of 40 years and they had a lower mortality per million than UK and effectively the same as Ireland.

00:32:18.420 If you account for care home and age profiles and their soft 2019 flu season, that's what caused their big hit compared to the Nordics.

00:32:27.340 So we have all the data now and Sweden now are four to six weeks back, pretty close to all normal.

00:32:34.820 And I have the photos. People on buses, pretty packed, no masks, shopping. The distancing has fallen away for a month or two now because there's no driver for it. And their death rates and ICU rates are on the floor for months.

00:32:50.280 As you were talking there, Francis started staring longingly into the distance, maybe remembering one of those great moments being packed onto a bus.

00:32:58.660 I'm packed onto the Northern line with my head trapped under some sweaty businessman's armpit.

00:33:04.860 And you know what? I actually felt nostalgia for that memory.

00:33:07.880 I think I'm going insane after being locked down here for so long.

00:33:12.040 But so we've seen that the Swedish model works.

00:33:17.480 We've seen that actually that is a way to deal with it.

00:33:22.960 When are we going to get out of this, Ivor?

00:33:24.760 Because I'm going to be honest with you.

00:33:26.200 I was looking at the situation, and to myself, I think there's three options.

00:33:30.820 We either adopt the Swedish model, number one.

00:33:33.240 Number two, we have a vaccine.

00:33:36.260 And from what, I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm not a virologist,

00:33:40.880 the last truly great pandemic was the HIV-AIDS virus.

00:33:45.440 They isolated the HIV virus, I think it was in 83 or 84.

00:33:49.760 They've never managed to find a vaccine to combat that.

00:33:53.000 They've never had a vaccine against a coronavirus.

00:33:56.200 So there's a vaccine option, which is looking tenuous at best.

00:34:00.340 Or number three, we just carry on with this to what to the economy doesn't exist anymore.

00:34:08.240 Yeah, that's why I've been despairing for months, particularly since the mandated masks, which made zero scientific sense, regardless of their efficacy, as I said.

00:34:18.620 I'll have to say that again, because that was a dark day for me because I realized then they've gone nuts.

00:34:23.880 and it's just getting worse now.

00:34:27.060 It's almost like they held on to the winter

00:34:29.220 to just get back some mortality in ICU action

00:34:32.820 so they could do this again.

00:34:34.580 It's just like bizarre.

00:34:36.760 But yeah, there's no exit strategy

00:34:38.540 because the vaccine,

00:34:40.660 you know, there's loads of really great vaccines

00:34:42.820 and then the influenza vaccine,

00:34:45.820 you know, it's 20, 30% effectiveness

00:34:48.360 and there's some studies that show

00:34:49.940 it doesn't really leave a mark

00:34:51.240 on elderly mortality anyway.

00:34:52.920 so coronavirus vaccine they've never been able to do one for 30 years now they may do it it's

00:35:00.200 probably easier than aids or hiv because hiv is a shape shifter shifter virus um that interacts

00:35:07.020 with the immune system and changes its profile whereas to be honest this coronavirus is more

00:35:11.300 kind of a classic coronavirus just a high impact one but the problem is if they get a vaccine and

00:35:17.420 it's like the flu vaccine which would be a an amazingly good result because it takes six years

00:35:22.820 to safely develop a vaccine and they've like had eight or nine months. But if they achieved the

00:35:28.180 safety and efficacy of flu vaccine, let's say it's 30 percent effective, it's not going to move any

00:35:34.580 needle. And there's publications coming out now, even from some of the vaccine companies or companies

00:35:39.660 that it probably won't affect transmissibility and transmission. It'll just minimize the actual

00:35:45.940 impacts in the elderly or whoever so again it's just not going to move the needle a huge amount

00:35:52.800 and it could be out next summer so your question is very valid like what are we doing now it's not

00:35:59.080 like waiting for a magic vaccine because in industry if you did project management

00:36:05.300 and and tried to say to the management team oh we're doing this to get to that you'd be

00:36:11.860 eviscerated they'd say look that's great if you get that later but that's not going to make a huge

00:36:16.360 difference so what do we do now and what we do now is the swedish model i mean there's just there's

00:36:23.440 no question about it unless the icus and hospitalizations and mortality actually start

00:36:31.240 going up to genuine epidemic levels in which case you might need to do emergency measures

00:36:36.220 short of that it just makes no sense and like there's no way out well the phrase it makes no

00:36:44.240 sense is a phrase that the two of us have been uttering for months now because it doesn't make

00:36:49.140 any sense and the worry for us as well is uh if we're prepared to do things now that as you talk

00:36:55.940 about mars for example they don't have any scientific basis until very recently and not

00:37:00.880 very strong evidence on that. So how do we know that it's time to end this? Because you could

00:37:07.260 argue, for example, look, we've got everyone wearing masks, right? Everyone is social distance,

00:37:12.380 everyone is using hand sanitizer, everyone's keeping to their bubbles. Well, that's a great

00:37:17.880 way to stop people dying of other diseases, isn't it? So why don't we just carry on like this for

00:37:23.900 the rest of our lives? Because you don't want granny to die of the flu. You don't want granny

00:37:28.940 need to die of this or that or what if there's another thing why don't we just preventatively

00:37:33.180 continue wearing masks continue social distancing continue not shaking hands continue with all of

00:37:39.080 this right and every now and again why would we why don't we just have a preventative lockdown

00:37:43.160 once a year just to make sure like where does this end yeah there is no end there is no logic

00:37:49.840 as we've discussed it it just makes no sense we're back to that phrase again it makes no sense

00:37:55.460 So we've changed our whole history of humankind, our culture, our traditions, our freedoms.

00:38:01.780 We've completely turned on its head everything we wear to become a people terrified of viruses

00:38:10.880 that were always there and always causing trouble every winter.

00:38:15.180 We've done all that in this past six months.

00:38:18.680 And now where we are makes no sense.

00:38:21.540 i i'm not often speechless but i just i've been pinching myself every day for six months or more

00:38:29.800 now every day for a moment it flashes through my head this is not real and then i realize it is

00:38:35.640 real that's how disbelieving i am as a 30-year technical master and problem-solving master in

00:38:43.060 many different fields i cannot believe it anymore i don't know where it's going it's just

00:38:50.920 Sweden is the only possible model and that was clear in March it was clear in March

00:38:58.700 and it's since been borne out by the data with absolute clarity and either how much of this

00:39:06.220 is political caridus in that you know governments don't want to be seen to adopt the Sweden model

00:39:13.420 because if there is a slight spike they're going to be labeled as murderers especially

00:39:17.660 of the conservative government, uncaring, unfeeling, yada, yada, yada.

00:39:22.020 Yeah, that's part of like the first engine I described earlier.

00:39:25.540 That's definitely, you know, we got a devil's brew in there between the governments, the

00:39:30.760 politicians, the advisors, the conflicted parties, you know, in academia and science

00:39:36.300 and the people, the citizenry, that whole self-reinforcing kind of negative loop, destructive

00:39:44.060 loop. That's running now. You need a leader. You need a Churchill or something to come in and

00:39:49.380 actually smash that loop and stand in front of a microphone and say some of the stuff we're saying

00:39:55.040 and say, guys, I'm calling it. Refer to the Sweden data. Show a couple of graphs. Say, guys,

00:40:02.080 we got it wrong. But what modern politician is going to do that? The answer is none of them.

00:40:08.120 None of them are statesmen or stateswomen anymore. Well, not none. But let's be honest,

00:40:13.400 We don't have the people of the caliber of the 40s and 50s.

00:40:16.760 We're not within a million miles of it.

00:40:19.440 And I mean, I saw, you know, I could say it's a bit harsh, but I saw this cartoon meme and it showed the young soldiers, American jumping off at maybe Utah Beach or one of the beaches.

00:40:32.200 And they're all jumping out with rifles.

00:40:34.340 And it says 1944, Americans jumping to sudden or to almost certain death.

00:40:41.820 And then it shows a guy cowering under a desk with a mask on and it says Americans, you know, 2020 terrified of a virus with a 99.9% survival rate. And that contrast in those two pictures brings it home to how far we've fallen.

00:41:00.520 I mean, when you actually think of it in those terms, we've given away everything we stand for based on one virus that has a 99.9% survival rate.

00:41:15.760 And to be honest, it's a thousand times more dangerous to the over 70s who are ill than to, you know, middle aged or young people.

00:41:23.700 This was raised by British professors.

00:41:26.060 Like you just keep asking, what have we done?

00:41:29.600 I mean, it's like, Father, what have I done?

00:41:32.160 It's biblical, I think.

00:41:35.120 One of the things as well, I mean, you talk about politics, Francis,

00:41:38.780 is that we in this country, I don't know whether it's also the case in Ireland

00:41:42.560 and elsewhere in Europe, but we have an opposition that is even more keen

00:41:47.340 on these measures than the government.

00:41:49.840 And so what that means is people like us, and look, let's be honest,

00:41:53.880 statistically speaking, those of us who are skeptical about the measures

00:41:56.820 the government is implementing now. We're in the minority, according to the polls. If you believe

00:42:01.080 the polls, we are in the minority. But nonetheless, there is no receptacle for that dissatisfaction.

00:42:07.100 We don't have an election until 2024. I imagine if we're still wearing masks, then it might be a

00:42:12.400 bit more of an issue than it is now. But really, right now, there is no one who is going to,

00:42:17.880 not only you talk about the caliber of politicians, and that's something we've discussed on the show

00:42:23.080 for many months as well.

00:42:25.020 There's nobody of that caliber.

00:42:26.680 But in addition to that,

00:42:28.160 everybody in politics seems to agree on this issue

00:42:31.420 with one or two exceptions.

00:42:33.480 And therefore, there's absolutely no representative group

00:42:36.980 that would actually talk about this stuff

00:42:38.960 in the way that the three of us are doing now.

00:42:42.480 Yeah, and that's unfortunately not to be fatalistic,

00:42:46.040 but that's the tragedy here.

00:42:48.120 And we know from the start,

00:42:49.820 I mean, the CEO of YouTube said

00:42:51.540 anyone who goes against who guidance which we now know was catastrophically wrong and that's just

00:42:58.080 the reality and they're changing a little uh anyone gets taken down and professor knut with

00:43:04.560 kowski uh professor wolder darg you know a whole load of people who are saying what i'm saying now

00:43:11.700 but they were saying it in march they knew it in advance they were taken down off youtube and ever

00:43:18.000 since then, you're not even allowed to have the discussion. Did you notice that? The discussion

00:43:23.140 in Ireland is never allowed on the mass media. It's literally not allowed. So what kind of

00:43:30.340 democracy have we got now that you can't even discuss the biggest issue of the day? You're

00:43:35.220 not allowed to discuss it. I mean, that's then that's not democracy is gone. You know, it's not

00:43:42.060 like the 10% who actually understand this, who want to change things for the better, for the

00:43:46.680 future of society, it's not like you have to give them the conch all the time or give them the

00:43:52.420 authority to decide. But they should be allowed on the radio and television to discuss it.

00:43:58.540 I mean, last night, I'll give you an example. This is how bad it is in Ireland, right? I don't know

00:44:04.760 which is worse now, England or Ireland, but this is how bad it is in Ireland. We had a professor

00:44:08.860 last night who's been scaremongering for eight months. And as far as I'm concerned, he's unhinged.

00:44:15.220 I mean, or something's wrong with him in his brain.

00:44:20.080 So last night he came out and he was asked, well, if we don't lock down and do all this stuff, what would the impact be?

00:44:26.740 Is it being exaggerated?

00:44:28.760 And he said, well, if we don't, it'll be refrigerator trucks, mass graves, and maybe up to 30,000 people die in Ireland.

00:44:39.860 Now, we had a total of less than 1,000 die in the actual epidemic.

00:44:42.880 And he said 30,000.

00:44:44.520 You know where that comes from. He's still quoting from Ferguson's ridiculous model that's been debunked totally. 30,000 people. So I simply drew Ireland's epidemic. I had to scale it down in a graph right down to allow room for his absurdity. And I showed what he was saying.

00:45:04.520 it's absurd we know from spain and france that we're getting nothing like the original wave and

00:45:12.880 it's leveled out there and he's saying we're going to get something 20 times bigger than the original

00:45:20.060 actual epidemic and that's on prime time television and no one countered them like

00:45:26.580 oh it's just this is surreal it's surreal for a technical person to even see this

00:45:33.320 it's insane i mean i don't know i don't know guys and i mean going to the virus itself there's

00:45:43.760 at first we were told all this you know in naturally evolved from you know a combination

00:45:48.400 of a bat and a pangolin and then it seems that it might have actually been come from a lab from

00:45:54.400 the Wuhan lab. What do we know about the actual chemical makeup of this virus? Is it artificially

00:46:00.240 created or is it naturally evolving? Yeah. I mean, I read a couple of papers back then and there was

00:46:06.960 a French professor who insisted because of the sequences that were in there wouldn't have

00:46:11.900 happened naturally. And I quickly moved away from it because I made a decision. It's like 5G and

00:46:17.640 stuff. I'm not even going there. I'm not even going to look up any science there. I'm just not going

00:46:22.680 near it. So I just decided whether or not it was a gain of function. So we have the technology for

00:46:29.020 decades to do something like that, which you assume that no one would ever do it. But if it

00:46:34.700 was, say, made in Wuhan and that stuff, and it was mistakenly let out, it doesn't really change

00:46:42.400 the reality now. So for me, the reality is what we've been talking about. What is the impact and

00:46:49.440 is our response scientific and proportional? That's the game I'm in. Only based on published

00:46:55.160 data, government sources, verifiable data. That's where I'm staying. So I could speculate about

00:47:01.360 whether it was made or whether it was a freak in nature. But to be honest, it doesn't really

00:47:07.100 matter what it was. It's the destruction of our society that's the problem now. And technically,

00:47:12.020 it doesn't matter where it came from. You talk about the destruction of our society,

00:47:17.040 and we touched on it briefly.

00:47:18.860 We've had Dr. Carol Sikora on the show

00:47:21.700 and he talked about some of the stuff

00:47:23.660 that you talk about vis-a-vis cancer.

00:47:26.540 But there's a bigger issue at stake

00:47:27.920 when we talk about the impact of focusing

00:47:30.960 all our resources seemingly on this one virus.

00:47:34.260 And when I say that, just for people listening,

00:47:36.540 I have many friends who are doctors.

00:47:38.820 These are people who save lives on a daily basis

00:47:41.220 who were off work.

00:47:42.980 They were forced not to work for many months

00:47:45.640 in their primary role doing surgeries doing brain surgeries all that sort of thing and instead

00:47:52.380 everybody was thrown into dealing with covid as a result of which there's a backlog of of operations

00:47:59.140 there's a backlog of cancer and you know francis mentioned mental health you mentioned the economic

00:48:04.900 impact of poverty all of this other stuff do we is there any estimate scientifically at what some

00:48:13.700 of the impacts might be if we carry on like this yeah there's a publication from it's uk big

00:48:23.220 university i'm pretty sure they were putting down that long term the death impacts could be like 200

00:48:30.600 k but that paper was kind of claiming they saved 350 k you know from ferguson's modeling now we

00:48:38.540 know that's not true 44 000 excess deaths in england with sars cov2 it might have been a bit

00:48:45.840 higher without lockdowns you know but those savings were illusory they were never real

00:48:52.320 so that's the 200k figure but again i'm not sure that they do it in qualies or quality adjusted

00:48:58.180 life years but remember that a lot of these deaths are going to be people in their 50s and 60s and

00:49:02.980 middle-aged people so there's vastly more life lost for each person who's affected right as we

00:49:08.700 described so you're saving a couple of years of granny and in the process you're killing off a

00:49:14.860 father of three a mother of two someone in their 20s who kills themselves because of depression

00:49:20.340 yeah etc etc you're you're trading people who were look obviously any death is a tragedy someone in

00:49:27.180 their 80s deserved to live as long as they possibly could but the point is we're in the

00:49:32.240 situations where there are trade-offs and what we've chosen to do is we're trading an extra year

00:49:37.540 or two or three for someone who may be very ill already versus someone in the prime of their life

00:49:43.460 yeah and i'd say an extra year or two or three professor levitt has done estimates of this and

00:49:50.960 i'd say that's hugely generous and again i bring you back to ireland as a typical case

00:49:56.500 we have the data 95 of them were so moribund or heading towards death already that they didn't

00:50:05.200 give them icu 95 so when you think about that you're not talking about all the people who died

00:50:11.740 had a few years each no way you know it just don't it's irrational so the cost there's another

00:50:19.480 paper came out that reckons it's a few million dollars possibly per kind of life year extended

00:50:26.340 those kinds of numbers and in the uk the nice organization nice they've got a guideline not

00:50:33.820 to spend more than 20 000 sterling per quality adjusted life year saved for medications because

00:50:39.960 you got to make trade-offs like you say this has been done for decades that's how the medical

00:50:44.260 system works i reckon you're talking i don't know somewhere like a million per quality adjusted life

00:50:50.960 you're saved, which is like, you know, 20K is the guideline. It's 50 times that. But no one seems

00:50:58.440 to care. You know something, guys? No one's actually done a proper cost-benefit of lockdown

00:51:04.560 using the data. And if they did, they'd get figures like I just mentioned. But no one's

00:51:09.080 actually really done it. Just one or two papers and they're ignored. So they did the biggest

00:51:13.580 intervention. They broke with all of our history of science on pandemic management, did this

00:51:20.540 enormous, weird thing that came out of China, no less, and then would not go back and look

00:51:28.580 and see, well, did it work?

00:51:30.180 Like, so we'll know the next time.

00:51:32.160 Would you think they'd be interested?

00:51:33.860 The fact they never went back and even explored the data.

00:51:37.900 In fact, anyone who talks about the data is not allowed on the radio.

00:51:42.100 That gives you your answer.

00:51:44.120 I mean, that gives you your answer.

00:51:47.700 This is encouraging and positive, isn't it?

00:51:49.760 Happy time.

00:51:50.540 Happy times. I mean, it does make you think that this could potentially go on indefinitely.

00:51:59.900 We know that there's a very real precedent with governments that once they have taken away civil liberties and rights,

00:52:05.720 they don't really like to give them back. An example is raising taxes, a classic one. They never lower them.

00:52:12.480 Do you worry that there's some civil liberties that have been taken away from us that they're not going to be wanting to give back anytime soon?

00:52:19.580 I have no doubt that unless pushed, they won't give anything back because that's as you describe this in the summer, clearly in June, they could have taken down the emergency powers and watched carefully like a proper government and proper scientists for any sign of trouble where they could reintroduce them.

00:52:43.040 That would be logical and it would respect our freedoms and our democracy and rights.

00:52:50.740 But they didn't do that.

00:52:52.280 And I knew, again, in July, when mandatory masks came in and new laws to wear masks with no exit strategy, flying in the face of all, every scientific kind of edict or not edict principle.

00:53:06.560 I realized then we're remorselessly caught in some crazy train ride into anti-science and God knows where it's going to go.

00:53:18.560 But I agree wherever this train is going, unless people push back or like the Great Barrington Declaration, GB declaration dot org, you can sign there unless the medical people and the scientists and I know scores of them in Ireland, doctors who are pulling their hair out, agree with me entirely on what I said.

00:53:37.900 but they're afraid for their jobs if they actually three doctors have gotten big trouble

00:53:42.640 just for discussing this in ireland already uh two of them lost their jobs so all the doctors are

00:53:49.640 kind of scared to even say the truth it's a weird situation right well either one of the things that

00:53:56.840 i'm sort of experiencing is we're having this conversation and i was very careful i think to

00:54:01.220 distance us from genuine conspiracy people, David Ikes, etc. But I do feel like I would someone to

00:54:09.240 pass the joint and give me that tinfoil hat right now, because the way we're talking, we are sort

00:54:14.180 of discussing it in very conspiratorial terms. But as you look around, I mean, if you if you're

00:54:18.720 objective and logical, that's what you see. And there's another element to all of this stuff that

00:54:24.080 I would add, which is big tech censorship, you alluded to briefly with YouTube. But you know,

00:54:29.260 And when we had Peter Hitchens on, who, you know, he's obviously, you know, someone who divides opinion in this country, certainly.

00:54:36.260 But you have to say he's one of the people who's been vindicated throughout this whole episode.

00:54:40.900 And when we had him on, YouTube shadow banned that video.

00:54:44.800 So it was impossible to find on YouTube without having the direct link.

00:54:48.920 We kicked up a big stink.

00:54:50.160 It was in many, many papers.

00:54:52.220 It was covered all over the place and they eventually relented.

00:54:55.060 The Great Barrington Declaration that you talk about, same thing.

00:54:57.980 uh and and on and on it goes so someone somewhere made the decision that basically the arbiter of

00:55:03.980 scientific and medical truth is now susan wachicki at youtube she knows best and none of the rest of

00:55:10.500 us are supposed to be talking about this what do you make of our ability to do science and make

00:55:15.260 correct medical uh economical and other decisions uh based on the evidence going forward in that

00:55:21.320 sort of informational environment yeah that's and i've seen many examples i wasn't aware of that one

00:55:28.820 and i thought hitchens actually might be let go because he wasn't an epidemiologist saying the

00:55:34.940 wrong thing they kill those guys quick but either way the censorship by tech giants

00:55:40.320 is just so profoundly dangerous to the future of society i don't think i'm overstating it

00:55:47.540 I'm under no illusions on things like this. It's it's of profound concern and should be to everyone.

00:55:54.680 But of course, because of what they're doing, everyone doesn't even get to hear about it.

00:55:59.400 It's just so dangerous because science fundamentally is based on discord.

00:56:05.180 And you must have arguments and counterpoints open and uncensored in anything scientific,

00:56:12.040 or you're going to get groupthink and you're going to get very very bad scenarios developing

00:56:17.720 you know consensus that's not correct and that can have enormously damaging consequences

00:56:24.440 so science is very important for society look look what we're doing based on science in the

00:56:29.940 last six months so it what can i say it's very frightening now the good sign was that google

00:56:36.060 stopped kind of suppressing in europe the great barrington declaration when people complained

00:56:41.680 yeah but i mean come on that's not you know going to make me a lot happier why did they do it in the

00:56:48.060 first place why did they feel they needed to that's the other question a bunch of scientists

00:56:53.580 are getting together saying we should protect the elderly but back off on the young healthy

00:56:58.060 it's not like they were saying you know we want to do something insane i mean that's

00:57:04.420 why do they need to censor that just to follow up quickly on that you talk about science thrives

00:57:10.840 on discord in other words the whole process of science is someone comes up with a with a hypothesis

00:57:17.020 you test it you someone else comes along goes no that's bullshit here's the way you do it and that's

00:57:22.100 how society moves forward by extremely sequentially exposing the fallacies in the previous ways of

00:57:28.700 thinking so what do you make of this phrase that we've all been we've had rammed down our throats

00:57:35.420 we're following the science yeah when someone says that um you have to be immediately suspicious now

00:57:45.400 it's like when the cholesterol industry i was involved in that stuff for a couple of years

00:57:50.620 and when they say we're following the science on cholesterol causing heart disease well come on

00:57:56.560 like if you look at the science it's vaguely connected as a proxy for other disease states

00:58:02.600 but they were saying that for decades we published we're following the science it was all rot

00:58:08.260 so it's similar to that i mean this one is much more impactful and when they say following the

00:58:14.780 science it's just to pacify the great unwashed you know to give them the impression that this

00:58:21.360 is not just politics it's all sciencey and stuff but the great unwashed sadly are so innumerate

00:58:28.320 and so lacking in scientific capability, it appears, that you kind of got 80 or 90% of them,

00:58:35.640 even if you treat them like idiots. I mean, it's quite sad. I mean, basic logic. I'll give you an

00:58:41.280 example, right? Someone close to me who is not sciency, accountant, doesn't watch any of my

00:58:48.040 metabolism and my scientific videos on, you know, chronic disease and all this stuff, never watches

00:58:54.000 them. Couldn't be bothered. And that person said to me in April, Ivor, is this is this kind of

00:59:00.980 bullshit, this thing? And I laugh and I says, why have you been watching my videos? Because I'd

00:59:06.780 interviewed like Wall Street risk managers who showed how Italy, the lockdown did not affect

00:59:11.360 the curve, blah, blah, blah. And I was surprised that this person was watching. He said, no, no,

00:59:15.420 no, never watch those. I said, how do you figure? And he says, well, I kind of realized we're in

00:59:21.600 the middle of the epidemic, or even we're coming out of it, maybe. He said, I don't know anyone

00:59:26.420 who knows anyone who knows anyone who's died. To be honest, I don't really even know anyone who

00:59:34.140 has it or had it. He said, what kind of epidemic is that? And I said, very good. So you're using

00:59:41.260 logic. You may not be scientific. And then I said, but is that it like? And he said, no,

00:59:46.120 there's another thing and this is really good he likes shopping but a lot of the stores are closed

00:59:52.380 so he's actually going around to all the generic food stores and supermarkets because there were

00:59:57.080 no electronics open all you know and he said i noticed that no one got sick in the stores and

01:00:03.120 they're not locked down at all they're eight to ten hours a day no masks all the great unwashed

01:00:09.340 flowing in and out of the store indoors for a respiratory virus none of them are getting sick

01:00:14.820 certainly none of them died i even asked some of the older ones and they don't know anyone who

01:00:19.100 knows anyone he said they're not locked down at all pretty much and nothing happened to them so

01:00:25.820 how can the lockdown be doing something and i said fair play to you so based on logic alone

01:00:31.880 he actually worked out the truth with no science but that's rare that's rare he's a smart guy

01:00:39.940 I mean it just seems that we're it doesn't seem if we are in absolutely dire straits

01:00:49.040 and we have a political system that is unwilling to make difficult choices to do the right thing

01:00:57.420 we're heading towards another lockdown do you think we're going to be out of this next year

01:01:02.620 and we're going to go back to normal life or do you think again that's wishful thinking

01:01:08.180 yeah well i'm a brutal realist uh like i said i'm a corporate guy for a long time i think there's

01:01:15.880 hope that with barrington and today for example in ireland someone spent i don't know probably

01:01:22.400 20 grand on a full page advert in the irish times basically kind of saying a mild version of what

01:01:29.220 i'm saying and apparently it's a doctor who sold a company and has money but the irish times did

01:01:35.120 printed that's a good sign we are seeing pushback in the media increasingly along the lines of what

01:01:42.240 i've been describing for people today maybe not as strong you know baby steps but it's beginning

01:01:48.940 to happen the uk the telegraph the spectator talk radio are fantastic and julianne and allison and

01:01:56.040 the guys we're seeing more coverage of the scientific reality now it's still probably only

01:02:03.500 10% and 90% is pure hysteria and psychosis. But if that could build, I think we could have some

01:02:12.920 hope. I wish we'd done it a couple of months ago in the summer, because now they've actually got

01:02:18.640 some ICU action and hospitalization and a bit of mortality as currency. But in the summer,

01:02:26.960 no one really pushed enough. But I think, yeah, there's a hope. And I think there's leaders all

01:02:31.880 around the world. And I'm hearing it now. And I'm connected to major business leaders who are

01:02:36.420 realizing now that this has gone too far and that the science is basically largely junk on all of

01:02:43.080 this. Largely, not completely, largely. And I think they're going to start flexing some muscle.

01:02:49.700 So, you know, we live in hope and die in despair. But I think if people show courage,

01:02:56.620 So I know scores of doctors who know this, and the vast majority won't speak up.

01:03:02.300 But if people could show courage and leadership, then we'd have a huge surge.

01:03:08.340 So that's what I ask of you people of science and medicine, logic, mathematicians, all the

01:03:15.220 smart people out there who have worked out what I said today, you know, speak up, because

01:03:21.440 if you don't speak up, your children will pay for it.

01:03:24.380 And mark my words, they will pay with a less free world and all kinds of negative implications in the future.

01:03:32.100 Because if we become a society that's based on a rationality, we can't even predict the future anymore.

01:03:39.660 You know, this is such a big, big stakes game.

01:03:44.260 It's enormous.

01:03:45.580 We're going to call this episode of Trigonometry, We Live and Hope and Die and Despair.

01:03:50.140 uh to quote you either but listen mate thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us we

01:03:55.760 appreciate your thoughts uh before we let you go we always have a one final question which is

01:04:01.200 what is the one thing we're not talking about as a society that we really should be

01:04:05.940 so i'm a root cause expert root cause guy so what's the root cause of challenges in the modern

01:04:13.620 world that doesn't get enough coverage and the one that always occurs to me

01:04:17.540 is the fusion of corporate and state so corporates and government i think that corporates particularly

01:04:27.260 the super big companies and we talked about censorship we need to be having the conversation

01:04:32.720 about separating them from the instruments of state and governments because it's always the

01:04:40.420 last 10 or 20 years we have drifted very badly and we know now that there's one pharma lobbyist

01:04:46.280 more than one pharma lobbyist for every member of Congress in Washington now. It's an industry

01:04:51.620 and the revolving door between the FDA and pharmaceutical companies of the top positions.

01:04:57.520 And I could go on. That's the big issue, I think, is corporates can make money. I'm a capitalist.

01:05:03.700 I'm a corporate guy. But they should be removed more from government than they've become. And

01:05:12.060 it's the same with banking and everything. I think that's the big issue, that if we dealt with that

01:05:17.140 issue and they all made all their money and dodged their tax and all had a good time, fine with that,

01:05:22.360 but we were able to remove them from government, sovereign governments, I think we'd solve a lot

01:05:28.440 of problems coming down the road that are not even defined yet. Perfect. Ivor, thanks so much

01:05:33.020 for coming on. Where can people follow you? You've had a series of super viral videos with graphs,

01:05:39.180 with detailed data showing a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about in terms of the

01:05:43.820 coronavirus and other things. Where can people follow you? Where can they watch your stuff?

01:05:48.320 What do you recommend people do? I just say Google Ivor Cummins and on the front page,

01:05:54.620 well, unless I get censored, you get my YouTube and thefatemperor.com. And that's my website.

01:06:01.660 And I'm on Twitter, very active. But YouTube mainly, if you go down my timeline, the titles

01:06:06.020 to give you an idea.

01:06:07.320 I have a ton of videos out there

01:06:08.980 and they're all for free.

01:06:10.360 And a lot of them

01:06:11.160 the last six months, yes,

01:06:12.300 I've covered all the nuances

01:06:13.820 of what we talked about today.

01:06:17.080 Thank you so much, Ivor.

01:06:19.780 And if you have enjoyed...

01:06:21.840 Oh, sorry.

01:06:22.660 I've got to do it to the top.

01:06:23.900 So thank you so much, Ivor.

01:06:25.680 And if you have enjoyed the show,

01:06:27.880 what am I talking about?

01:06:29.260 I don't know where I went with this.

01:06:31.060 He's got COVID

01:06:32.000 and we're throwing him

01:06:34.000 into a care home immediately.

01:06:35.620 I do.

01:06:36.020 i talked so much i think i've almost i've almost lulled you into a yes yeah it's all right he's

01:06:43.140 got some kind of brain condition we're gonna throw him into a hospital uh hopefully i never

01:06:47.080 have to see him again uh but in the meantime if you've enjoyed the show uh thank you for watching

01:06:51.860 remember to hit subscribe click like share this video with others and we will see you very soon

01:06:57.320 with another episode or a live stream all of them go out at 7 p.m uk time see you soon don't say

01:07:03.600 anything you can do.

TRIGGERnometry - October 21, 2020

＂There's No Justification for Another Lockdown＂ - Ivor Cummins

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