TRIGGERnometry - They Arrested And Strip Searched Me... - Lois McLatchie Miller

00:00:00.800 I was arrested for holding one of the most basic fundamental truths that we've known forever.

00:00:06.340 Children are not born in the wrong body.

00:00:09.200 Their immediate instinct was to call us fascists.

00:00:12.100 And Chris asked, well, what about our free speech?

00:00:13.760 We have a right to freedom of speech here, don't we?

00:00:15.760 And the police said, it doesn't work like that here.

00:00:17.600 And we were arrested, strip searched, put in cells for a few hours.

00:00:23.020 Why were you strip searched?

00:00:24.740 If I get criminal charges, it will change my life quite substantially.

00:00:28.820 It's quite a high cost for free speech.

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00:01:20.580 It's McClatchy Miller.

00:01:21.420 Welcome to the show.

00:01:22.280 Thank you.

00:01:23.120 Good to have you on.

00:01:24.280 We wanted to have you on for a while, but particularly more recently because of an incident you were involved in.

00:01:29.800 So you're someone who campaigns on a number of issues, one of them being trans ideology.

00:01:36.140 It's an issue we haven't talked about for quite some time, really, because initially in the journey of trigonometry,

00:01:42.920 we were just investigating it and kind of going, like, you know, trans women are real women.

00:01:47.920 What does that mean?

00:01:48.540 And how does it work?

00:01:49.280 And all of that.

00:01:50.220 And then I think it's fair to say over time we came to what we thought was a pretty reasonable position on that.

00:01:55.540 And over time the country came to, Britain at least, came to what is a pretty reasonable position on that.

00:02:00.240 You know, outlawing puberty blockers, defining what a woman is. 1.00

00:02:04.600 Finally, we know.

00:02:05.980 Good.

00:02:06.280 We've discovered that.

00:02:08.720 And now we don't really talk very much about it because we sort of feel that it's been dealt with.

00:02:13.600 But you had an incident recently which shows how much more there is going on around that and speech and so on.

00:02:19.640 So tell us about your work and what happened.

00:02:21.680 Yeah, well, I was arrested for holding one of the most basic fundamental truths that we've known forever.

00:02:27.960 Children are not born in the wrong body.

00:02:31.280 And it's one of the most important messages of our day.

00:02:34.120 And you're right to say that the UK has come a really long way legally and politically on this issue.

00:02:39.720 But I think sometimes we can just look at the news stories or our own Twitter feed and think that we have won and not realise what's going on up in the streets.

00:02:48.620 And so my friend, Billboard Chris, who has been working on this for a long time, his methodology is to go out, to take the conversation outside and to meet people in their daily lives and to have a conversation about what's going on when it comes to the horrors of child transition and what we can do to keep children safe.

00:03:05.300 So he does this all over the world.

00:03:07.060 I joined him.

00:03:08.760 I've joined him quite a few times.

00:03:10.380 And I joined him in Brussels about six weeks ago.

00:03:14.500 We've done this in woke cities before.

00:03:16.500 We did it in Melbourne, Australia, one of the most famously woke cities of all.

00:03:19.700 We were out in Geneva.

00:03:21.660 Typically, even in these places, it's about nine to one support.

00:03:25.240 You wouldn't know it, but a lot of people, they walk past, at least they give you a thumbs up or normally it's a dad, the kind of middle-aged dads really kind of get on board with what we're saying.

00:03:34.680 And either stop to give us our support vocally or at least just make it known to you.

00:03:40.320 But Brussels was the first time, and it was the first time for Chris also, that he'd actually be four to one against.

00:03:46.500 It was as if we'd gone into this vortex where, and if you think about Brussels, obviously, a lot of people who go to Brussels go there because they want to be part of the EU.

00:03:54.920 So it's a city of activists, a city of people with an agenda.

00:03:58.080 And it was about four to one against this message.

00:04:02.680 I got the impression a lot of people had never even seen such a message.

00:04:05.400 I think we're very lucky in the Anglosphere that we get quite a balanced media spectrum on this issue.

00:04:13.560 If you look from the Telegraph to the Guardian, there's quite a range of opinion on things like purity blockers.

00:04:18.660 But I got the impression that out there in Brussels, in the European media, they just had not been exposed to this kind of thinking before.

00:04:26.260 They had not come across these arguments.

00:04:27.720 And their immediate instinct was to call us fascists and to yell at us and to describe us as Nazis and the most horrible people in the world just because we wanted to keep children safe from puberty blockers.

00:04:41.820 So we started to get kind of a little bit of a crowd around us. 0.95

00:04:45.500 A lot of them were shouting kind of shame on you, being very aggressive, saying, you know, I have a trans daughter and what you're doing is, you know, going to murder lots of people.

00:04:54.080 And we're saying, no, we're actually here to keep children safe.

00:04:57.060 Let's talk about what's going on.

00:04:58.580 Let's talk about the science behind this.

00:04:59.820 Let's talk about how we can compassionately care for kids who have confusion.

00:05:03.740 As the crowd grew, there was two men particularly who were being very aggressive to me.

00:05:07.160 And they were middle-aged dads, kind of, you know, as a stereotype, but I don't know if they had children.

00:05:12.380 But that was their, normally they were for us, but they started kind of getting in my face, trying to take me away from Chris, trying to mess with the equipment, yelling at me.

00:05:22.740 And I didn't understand it all because it was in Dutch, but I got the impression, given some of the English swear words that were coming out, that it probably wasn't the nicest thing that they were saying.

00:05:30.520 And so eventually we had to call the police for our own safety.

00:05:33.640 And when the police arrived, they took a look at this scene with two people with signs and the recording equipment and this gathering mob shouting and yelling.

00:05:43.500 And their instinct was, of course, to arrest the two peaceful people and not the crowd who were yelling abuse.

00:05:51.800 It was quite an interesting little 20, 30 minutes we had with the police explaining what was going on.

00:05:57.560 I showed them the cameras.

00:05:59.560 They were just talking to people, having conversations.

00:06:01.780 And they're like, oh, you need a permit to protest.

00:06:04.180 And I said, no, we're not protesting.

00:06:05.380 We would have bought 50 people if we were protesting.

00:06:07.140 Here's our equipment.

00:06:07.860 Here's the workers on Twitter, doing, you know, showing him examples.

00:06:12.080 And I said, you wouldn't need a permit to have a conversation about the environment or about Israel and Gaza or any of these controversial issues.

00:06:18.380 So why do I need a permit to be here today?

00:06:22.420 And Chris asked, well, what about our free speech?

00:06:24.180 We have a right to freedom of speech here, don't we?

00:06:25.700 And the police said, it doesn't work like that here, which was, I want to think that he didn't speak English well enough to express that point.

00:06:34.520 But it was quite chilling to hear, oh, it doesn't work like that here in the heart of democracy, in the home of the EU, in Brussels, of all places.

00:06:41.760 You do not get a claim to free speech.

00:06:44.620 They tried to take our camera equipment away, said that we weren't allowed to film.

00:06:47.920 That's not true at all.

00:06:49.460 And eventually they gave us an ultimatum, either take down our signs and obey the mob that was shouting at us, or keep our signs on, keep upholding this true message, and we would have to go down to the police station.

00:07:01.220 So ultimately that's what we decided to do.

00:07:03.620 We went to the police station, we were arrested, strip searched, put in cells for a few hours.

00:07:09.840 Why were you strip searched?

00:07:10.860 I actually don't know.

00:07:12.940 I guess this was the procedure.

00:07:15.200 I didn't, I've never been arrested before, and so when they took us to be searched, I didn't question that this was an abnormal.

00:07:23.120 It seems kind of excessive, given the nature of the alleged offence.

00:07:27.800 Yeah, I think so as well.

00:07:29.180 And yeah, I have quite a few questions about things that happened, the way the police acted that day.

00:07:34.220 I do believe they did go to foreign and several fronts, but the strip searching especially, I think, was unnecessary.

00:07:42.140 So they take you to the police station, and what were you arrested for?

00:07:45.540 It actually changed over time.

00:07:48.000 When we were outside, we were told that this was an administrative matter, that we might get fined, that it was about not having permits.

00:07:55.640 And we didn't think that that was right, and we thought it was challenging.

00:07:57.720 We challenged it, but ultimately, it wasn't a criminal charge.

00:08:01.960 When we went to the police station, we were then told that it would be a criminal charge, that we were being charged with disturbing the peace, which they really should have told us beforehand.

00:08:11.680 At that point, I kind of mentally remember accepting that, okay, if I get criminal charges, okay, it's going to make travel difficult, it's going to make work difficult, it will change my life quite substantially.

00:08:25.560 It's quite a high cost for free speech.

00:08:27.840 But I did kind of just internally accept it.

00:08:29.660 I actually became a different person for those few hours.

00:08:32.180 I was so calm.

00:08:32.960 I'm not, I ask my husband, I'm a panicker.

00:08:34.820 I'm not, you know, calm by nature, but I think, I don't know, God was with me, or I just kind of got this kind of attitude, knowing that I was right, knowing that the police were wrong in this situation.

00:08:47.540 I just, I became very calm.

00:08:49.060 I thought through the cost, and I was like, okay, I suppose that is the cost of what it is.

00:08:53.060 Fortunately, over the next few hours, that got bumped down again to the administrative fund, and at the end, we left with nothing.

00:08:59.700 So they can still decide to fine us within the next six months, but I doubt they will, and it won't be a criminal charge.

00:09:05.460 The thing that I found really interesting about the case is these men were behaving in a very physically aggressive manner.

00:09:10.880 You're obviously a woman, but nothing happened to them.

00:09:14.580 I know, I know.

00:09:16.160 Actually, when they were being very threatening, there was one man in particular, he was trying to walk me back.

00:09:20.660 He walked me back into this public square.

00:09:22.420 He was trying to isolate me from Chris.

00:09:24.500 And I remember looking around and looking for other men who were watching, because there were a lot of people watching.

00:09:31.040 And wow, they were like, can you help me?

00:09:32.960 And even these grown men that were watching said, they kept, I mean, some of them were just filming.

00:09:39.180 And they just shook their heads, and they didn't help.

00:09:41.480 And I thought that was very unprogressive for such a progressive society.

00:09:45.500 I think he was a lot larger than me.

00:09:47.520 He was a lot taller.

00:09:48.220 Just the visuals of it worked in my favor in that sense.

00:09:52.100 Like, they should have been helped.

00:09:53.360 But I guess because I had this message on that changed the calculation of who was a victim, who was a victor.

00:09:59.140 And they didn't help.

00:10:01.040 It must have been a profoundly shocking event to happen to you.

00:10:04.420 Because when you went out to essentially record social media content, I think the last thing that you would have expected, look, let's be honest, it's a contentious issue even now.

00:10:14.920 You're going to expect some kind of aggro.

00:10:16.620 But to be arrested by the police?

00:10:19.460 I know.

00:10:20.020 I know.

00:10:20.660 I think this speaks to a larger trend across Europe.

00:10:23.520 And we do get kind of confident in our message when it's on the gender issue because we've had so many wins in the UK.

00:10:29.880 But when you look across the continent, in Finland, we have a case.

00:10:34.500 I work for a legal organization called ADF International.

00:10:37.140 We've had a case there for the last five years where a politician is on criminal charges charged under war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Finnish criminal code.

00:10:45.280 Because in 2019, she tweeted a question as to whether her church should really be sponsoring the pride parade.

00:10:51.860 That has led to five years on criminal charges going up to the Supreme Court.

00:10:56.660 That's just one example.

00:10:57.580 I mean, across the continent, we see that there is still this censorship on this issue, particularly when it comes to kids.

00:11:05.380 And there is, I think, especially on the continent, still a feeling of two camps without nuance.

00:11:11.620 In the UK, we kind of have managed to pull out some of the more sensitive issues from this.

00:11:16.960 Some people would say, well, you know, it's different if there's adults, but if it's children, they shouldn't be able to make these decisions at such a young age.

00:11:23.360 Or we have a little bit more of a color to the debate.

00:11:25.360 Whereas I think in Europe, it's still very polarized as to who's right, who's wrong.

00:11:30.500 And if you're not on my team, then you're on the other team and you're a bad person.

00:11:33.680 When I was reading about your case, it kind of reminded me about a lot of countries on the continent's reaction to COVID in that they are far more authoritarian.

00:11:45.320 We just don't really realize it.

00:11:48.000 Because when you look at the French's reaction and the Belgians and all the rest of it, and then when I saw the police's reaction to you and Chris, that is very authoritarian.

00:11:57.820 Yeah, it was. Yeah. I actually lived in Austria during the COVID pandemic, and they made it a criminal offense not to get vaccinated, and they treated those who disagreed very poorly.

00:12:09.220 You would get thrown out of shops and things if you didn't have the right papers to show that you had, you know, had second or third shots, etc.

00:12:15.520 So many jokes.

00:12:16.380 I am suppressing all the jokes.

00:12:18.800 I know.

00:12:19.800 And the boy, you will not say that, yeah.

00:12:22.560 That's where the papes are supposed to be. 0.66

00:12:24.180 We'll do that on Substack.

00:12:27.780 So yeah, I think that that culture still has such a presence there.

00:12:33.360 And it was ironic that we were being called fascists and Nazis when we were there, you know, as dissidents, really, to this cultural lie that children can make these horrific decisions

00:12:45.780 about their bodies at a very young age.

00:12:48.020 You know, we're giving a positive message.

00:12:49.340 These kids are beautiful.

00:12:50.580 They don't need drugs and scalpels.

00:12:51.760 They just need love and affirmation to, you know, love the skin that they're in and to flourish and thrive as the kids that they're meant to be.

00:13:00.120 Whereas, you know, there's this cultural lie that they should be taking puberty blockers and hormone therapies and even going through surgeries to maim their bodies in order to be right, to be correct.

00:13:10.420 And so, like, the irony of us being told that we are the fascists was really troubling.

00:13:15.740 But I think one little ray of hope in the whole experience for me was when there was, when we were really surrounded at the maximum and there was, I don't know, a crowd, I had terrible estimate numbers, maybe 40 people around us.

00:13:26.740 And they were all, a lot of them were dressed in black.

00:13:29.060 A lot of them were yelling, shame on you.

00:13:30.380 But there was this one older lady that was in the crowd. 1.00

00:13:33.220 And no one else saw it, but she just gave me a wink and a thumbs up. 0.97

00:13:36.860 And I think I knew in the back of my mind that when this was all over, I would have support from, like, the free speech community and things like that.

00:13:44.180 But at that moment, nobody knew it.

00:13:45.500 Nobody was, like, with us.

00:13:47.000 And just having that one person gave us a little, like, reminder that we're not crazy, that a lot of people do support us.

00:13:53.940 It really gave us, like, encouragement and strength to go on.

00:13:56.640 And also, as well, there was another sinister element to it, which Billboard Chris, they kept the signs.

00:14:02.040 Yes, I know.

00:14:03.360 Yeah.

00:14:03.660 So that, and these signs are, they're not that cheap.

00:14:05.860 I think they kept about 250 pounds worth of our property and sent them to destruction, which is hopefully something else that can be challenged.

00:14:14.120 But, yeah, I mean, literally stealing the truth and burning it, there's something very symbolic and bitter about that.

00:14:20.500 And did they explain why they kept the signs?

00:14:23.100 They just, we asked them several times.

00:14:25.580 They just said, no, this is the way that it has to be.

00:14:28.240 I got the sense that, I mean, there was about 15 police officers came for us, four policemen.

00:14:34.400 And some of them, one particular man was very aggressive and hostile.

00:14:38.360 But some of them were not, and they were just following orders.

00:14:42.180 You know, they were just doing their jobs.

00:14:43.660 And I actually don't think that they thought that we were particularly bad people.

00:14:46.560 But you could see that they were just told to do these things, and they didn't really question why.

00:14:51.440 And I don't know which one's more concerning.

00:14:53.960 Right.

00:14:54.520 The ones who were, you know, aggressive and hostile are the ones who just didn't speak up and question what was happening.

00:14:58.920 Well, this idea, it's a very sinister framework that we have.

00:15:03.300 We've seen this in the UK as well, where effectively, if you are opposing something or making a statement about something, which other people choose to respond to by being violent or aggressive, the person who is simply there making a view known about trans issues or Israel or Palestine or whatever, they are then accused of being the ones that are breaching the peace because it's easier for the police to arrest one person than to break up a mob of violent people.

00:15:32.580 Yeah, that's absolutely true.

00:15:34.140 And I think we even see across different issues, sometimes it's the police want to just diffuse a situation.

00:15:40.000 And you can almost kind of have some sympathy for them in that they haven't maybe had the free speech training that they need in order to know how to respond to that situation.

00:15:47.240 But other times, it does seem just purely ideological.

00:15:50.940 I think for me, the most concerning examples of censorship that we've seen in the West lately are those who've been criminalized, prosecuted, and even convicted for praying silently in their heads near abortion facilities.

00:16:02.760 So I've worked on several of these cases.

00:16:05.440 And, you know, the first one, probably the most famous, Isabel von Spruce.

00:16:10.040 She was, you know, arrested in this iconic viral video.

00:16:13.680 And there was nobody around that day.

00:16:15.640 In fact, that first day that she went out to pray and she was arrested, the abortion clinic was closed.

00:16:21.200 So there was nobody around even to be, you know, offended or to be hostile to her.

00:16:26.620 She was just standing there with a thought in her head, a pro-life thought, a thought that went against the authorities of the day.

00:16:32.320 And she was arrested for that. 0.94

00:16:34.340 And it wasn't just once she was arrested twice.

00:16:37.160 We saw Adam Smith-Connor, the army veteran down in Bournemouth, who was later mentioned by J.D. Vance in his iconic speech in Munich.

00:16:44.380 He was arrested and criminalized and found guilty for three minutes of silent prayer near an abortion facility.

00:16:50.620 Again, nobody was offended.

00:16:52.160 Nobody actually took hostility or complained about this.

00:16:55.260 It was the police, it was the authorities that didn't want someone to just have this opinion.

00:17:00.520 I think that is when censorship is at its most concerning, is when it's not even responding to a potential flare-up.

00:17:08.660 It is just censorship for censorship's sake.

00:17:10.720 If you're watching this interview, chances are you already know how important it is to think for yourself.

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00:19:16.820 Lois, I want to give you a chance to address what I think will be a natural inclination

00:19:20.640 for a lot of people to say, look, people will always say something like this.

00:19:24.500 Well, I don't agree with you being arrested, but why are you going out there with these signs?

00:19:29.820 Why are you standing outside of an abortion clinic praying?

00:19:32.860 Have you got nothing better to do?

00:19:35.180 You can see where I'm going, right?

00:19:36.620 Yeah, I mean, why pray there?

00:19:39.300 Well, my answer to that is why pray anywhere?

00:19:42.980 You can pray or think a thought or express a view on any square mile in Britain or the West.

00:19:49.220 That is something that we fought for, we died for.

00:19:51.300 And it's the most fundamental principle of a democracy.

00:19:54.540 When you give up on that and say it's too much trouble to speak the truth, to have a conversation

00:20:00.140 that's merely meaningful, then you've given up on the entire idea and they may as well just censor

00:20:04.840 illegally because you've censored yourself anyway.

00:20:08.280 I mean, there's very practical reasons for why I went out, for why Isabel or Adam pray.

00:20:12.740 I mean, pro-life people for generations have stood near clinics to offer help and support

00:20:18.820 and alternatives to women who would like to seek other support than to have an abortion.

00:20:23.280 And that, unfortunately, is no longer possible under the current laws.

00:20:26.020 Although it should, of course, be possible at least to stand silently, at least to think

00:20:29.360 a thought to pray a prayer.

00:20:30.820 So there's practical reasons, but there's also just the fundamental need to preserve your

00:20:37.980 right to say anything in a democracy.

00:20:39.900 And it might be the issue that you don't like today.

00:20:41.960 Maybe you don't care about the pro-life cause.

00:20:43.620 Maybe it doesn't bother you about, you know, kids being related through transgender surgeries.

00:20:47.900 But if these causes at the kind of, you know, the first line of defense fall, then it will be your cause

00:20:55.220 very soon that is censored on the grounds, you know, in areas of Britain.

00:20:59.000 So we have to all stand together or fall together.

00:21:01.380 I'm getting at something slightly different, though, which is a lot of people might even somewhat

00:21:07.500 agreeing with what you're putting forward, just feel like you're making trouble on purpose.

00:21:13.500 And do you see what I'm saying?

00:21:17.660 I'm not saying I agree with this point of view, but I do.

00:21:20.220 I can hear that.

00:21:21.840 Sure.

00:21:22.160 Yeah.

00:21:22.660 That's a provocative gesture.

00:21:24.200 Yeah.

00:21:24.520 It's like you go out and into the public and say something that you know is controversial,

00:21:29.640 even though you believe it to be true.

00:21:32.680 You are naturally then going to produce an angry response.

00:21:35.780 And isn't it, some people might say, the police's job to kind of deal with that and prevent you from being hurt?

00:21:42.460 I mean, arresting you, this argument falls apart pretty quickly, but I'm trying my best to steal money.

00:21:47.900 Sure, sure.

00:21:49.300 Well, I guess that when an issue is particularly important, and you can think of different issues throughout history

00:21:54.800 that have been overturned through conversations, through advocacy, you know, we can think of slavery.

00:21:59.520 It was so normal, you know, back in the day, it was what society was built on.

00:22:03.660 But it was through conversations, it was through speaking up, that things like that fell.

00:22:08.340 And now we are faced with controversial issues of our day.

00:22:11.280 But why are they controversial?

00:22:12.260 Often because they involve an element of right and wrong.

00:22:15.700 And if we cannot grapple with those ideas amongst ourselves in the public square,

00:22:23.140 then we're just going to leave it to what politicians?

00:22:25.760 They depend on votes, they depend on it.

00:22:27.600 If we cannot get these messages of truth out, then we can never challenge things that are wrong.

00:22:32.300 And I think it's wrong.

00:22:33.660 To tell a kid that they're born in the wrong body.

00:22:35.720 I think it's wrong to entice them along a path that will give them permanent bodily damage

00:22:41.840 and lead them into something that is often, you know, linked to serious mental health consequences as well.

00:22:51.340 I think it's so wrong to fish kids along that path.

00:22:53.280 And we cannot speak out about it.

00:22:54.380 We cannot have those conversations one-to-one in public.

00:22:57.580 Then we can never get that message across.

00:22:59.980 That's why it's vital.

00:23:00.600 So you're bringing the conversation, you're forcing the conversation about these issues into the public debate,

00:23:05.280 which is a fair enough point, I suppose.

00:23:08.360 It's interesting.

00:23:09.220 The thing about the wrong body, I did an interview with a big Russian YouTuber, 1.00

00:23:13.500 and he challenged me on this because he turned out not to agree with my view on it.

00:23:17.540 And in Russian, it's not the wrong body.

00:23:22.600 The phraseology, because of the way Russian works, it has to be someone else's body. 0.77

00:23:27.540 And when I heard him say it in Russian, I was like, this makes even less sense than it does in English.

00:23:31.620 Ironically, he cut out that whole discussion from the interview.

00:23:36.160 But look, why do you think people are so angry about you making this statement in public?

00:23:42.980 Like, I mean, people might disagree, but why does it make them violently angry, do you think?

00:23:48.740 I think when it comes to something as harmful, as potentially damaging, if I am right, if the science is right, if my message is true,

00:23:58.560 then it means that a lot of people have participated in something that has actually been extremely harmful for either their kids

00:24:04.200 or they've supported it for other people's children, and that's really hard to reconcile with.

00:24:07.960 And I can totally understand that that's a very sensitive issue, but we can't therefore, because it has been done,

00:24:15.680 just perpetuate this on forever because we don't want to reckon with what has gone wrong.

00:24:19.820 And I understand that a lot of people have acted under false information or false understandings of what the right thing to do is.

00:24:26.420 But if we're not open to being challenged about having potentially done the wrong thing,

00:24:32.000 we'll never be able to stop that for someone else's child happening.

00:24:34.480 So there was somebody who came who was aggressive to us.

00:24:38.360 Who was, who said I had a, her kind of refrain was, I have a trans daughter.

00:24:43.120 And so obviously she's committed to that worldview.

00:24:45.600 And if she got it wrong, if I'm right, then she has caused harm to her child.

00:24:52.000 So it's difficult. It's sensitive. It can make people angry, I think, because of that.

00:24:56.200 But that's not a reason not to have the conversation. That's not a reason to suppress the truth.

00:25:00.260 I agree. I think also the thing is as well, I think people have realised,

00:25:05.640 looking back on social justice movements, you know, gay rights, etc, etc.

00:25:11.500 You know, we got a lot of stuff wrong. We got a lot of stuff wrong.

00:25:15.080 And so I think people overcorrected on this particular issue and they see it as a moral crusade

00:25:20.880 without actually looking at the facts of what is actually going on.

00:25:24.860 Yeah. Yeah. We're often blind to our own. We kind of, a lot of people, and, you know,

00:25:30.880 we're all guilty of this, will come up with our ideology first and find the facts to sit in the narrative.

00:25:34.940 But I think with, and we've been so privileged in the UK to see the evidence that's come out of the Tavistock Clinic,

00:25:41.820 the link between children who think they're transgender and who have autism.

00:25:45.720 I think it was 90, according to Hannah Barnes's book, 97.5% of kids at the Tavistock Clinic

00:25:51.740 had some other situation going on, like bullying, anxiety, depression, etc.

00:25:57.320 And over a third of them had autism, whereas only less than 2% of kids in the country have autism.

00:26:03.460 Not anymore, Lose.

00:26:06.280 Everyone's got autism now.

00:26:07.760 Poor ADHD.

00:26:08.260 Yeah.

00:26:09.240 Kids.

00:26:10.000 It's for adults, that's right.

00:26:12.520 But, yeah, so we've seen this evidence in bulk.

00:26:16.820 We've seen how that's had a result at the Supreme Court.

00:26:20.340 We don't really have an excuse not to know the facts and the science anymore.

00:26:24.780 And I can't remember exactly what your question was.

00:26:27.340 Sorry, that's my bad. 0.64

00:26:28.600 I sat right to you with my silly joke.

00:26:29.860 It's essentially, when we look at previous social justice movements, civil rights,

00:26:34.600 we look back and go, oh, we kind of made a few mistakes on this one.

00:26:38.980 So this is an overcompensation, I think, as well, Frances.

00:26:41.040 Right.

00:26:41.460 Yeah.

00:26:42.080 So, yeah, so we're scared to challenge dominant thinking.

00:26:46.880 We're scared to challenge the kind of wave of if you can identify as this and that.

00:26:51.760 The other, why can't you identify as a boy?

00:26:53.540 Why can't you identify as a girl?

00:26:55.860 But, yeah, it's easy to get on the boundary.

00:26:58.020 Sorry to interrupt.

00:26:58.840 I think what Frances is saying is something else, which is a lot of people are aware that

00:27:03.220 they might feel that they ended up on, you might be a little young to feel like this,

00:27:09.420 but a lot of people might feel that there were periods in the past when the majority of society,

00:27:15.620 the dominant worldview was insufficiently compassionate and understanding and willing to incorporate

00:27:25.140 perspectives of people who were not like them.

00:27:27.380 And there's a fear of making those mistakes again, which is, I think, where maybe some

00:27:32.660 of the motivation is also coming from.

00:27:34.280 Yeah, exactly.

00:27:34.980 And I think there is, amongst the kind of boomer generation, more of a propensity to that

00:27:41.300 view to not speak out.

00:27:42.600 You see a lot of support, I guess, amongst that generation for being on the right side

00:27:47.760 of history and not questioning whether this really is the right side of history if we

00:27:53.400 really have gone too far.

00:27:54.640 There's got to be a point which kind of liberalism kind of hits the buffers and we see the harms.

00:28:00.040 And it's OK to course correct and to say that, you know, if, yeah, to course correct and

00:28:06.380 come back and say, we've gone too far.

00:28:08.260 We're harming kids.

00:28:09.280 We're harming people.

00:28:10.480 Let's see, you know, if we can bend back a little bit into something that's safer.

00:28:14.000 I'm actually genuinely proud of, because I think Britain has actually led the world in

00:28:20.360 this conversation, in this discussion.

00:28:22.400 And look, there's, of course, there's toxic elements to it.

00:28:24.680 But the fact that you had brave people on the left like J.K.

00:28:27.720 Rowling, female Labour MPs or former Labour MPs, and I like Rosie Duffield, showed that it

00:28:34.840 wasn't a bipartisan issue.

00:28:36.940 This was about children's safety.

00:28:39.100 It was about female rights. 1.00

00:28:42.240 The problem, I think, comes when people classify it as a left or right issue.

00:28:47.360 Yeah.

00:28:48.140 And that's very much the case in America.

00:28:50.260 Is that the case across Europe?

00:28:51.860 I think more so, yeah.

00:28:54.180 And yeah, we've been so lucky to have these immense spokespersons on both sides.

00:28:58.580 But I think a lot of the people that were in Brussels that day accused us of being American,

00:29:02.540 and actually neither of us are, although we both sound American.

00:29:04.820 I am Scottish and Chris is Canadian. 0.97

00:29:07.780 But the initial reaction was like, oh, you're American fascist.

00:29:10.860 And they obviously have only ever seen this debate through the prism of the kind of extremes

00:29:15.160 or the more American polarized version of it, which when reported on in Europe is reported

00:29:22.960 on as good and evil, with the Democrats being the side of the good in a lot of European media.

00:29:28.020 And so that kind of narrative shape has infected a lot of the thinking and reduced willingness

00:29:34.040 to look at the actual science and evidence and to come up with people's own opinions.

00:29:38.380 And do you know what the EU's approach to this is?

00:29:41.020 Because that would be genuinely fascinating.

00:29:43.220 Yeah.

00:29:43.560 So I think the EU itself doesn't have competence on this area.

00:29:46.560 It's a nationwide, it's a national issue, which ultimately is good,

00:29:50.960 allowing countries to make their own mind up on it.

00:29:54.260 And I mean, the EU can obviously show some ideological favoritism when it comes to,

00:30:02.700 I believe, there was just a few weeks before we went to Brussels.

00:30:05.060 In fact, I'd actually, Chris had tweeted about this scene coming out for me,

00:30:10.160 I think it's Ursula von der Leyen's Twitter with trans pride flags.

00:30:14.960 And that had actually sparked us into thinking, oh, it might be worth going to Europe

00:30:18.660 to have some of these conversations on the street and to meet with some European politicians

00:30:21.920 and to challenge some of this thinking.

00:30:24.440 So clearly there is a kind of ideological bias within the institution.

00:30:27.540 But thankfully, that doesn't set policy at the moment within nations.

00:30:31.620 And I also think as well, I mean, Europe is coming to its own reckoning with a lot of progressive policies,

00:30:37.840 for instance, mass immigration, which is proven, unfortunately, to create a lot of social problems.

00:30:44.920 I think more and more people are starting to wake up and realize just because something sounds good

00:30:49.920 doesn't mean it actually is good or has positive real world implications.

00:30:53.940 Yeah, I think that's right.

00:30:55.780 I think there is a stream towards that.

00:30:58.420 It's tough because we have to bend back a lot of the kind of journey to extreme liberalism that brought us here.

00:31:04.540 I think there was, this might be a bit controversial, but in the kind of 60s, in the sexual revolution,

00:31:12.600 we had this kind of birth of feminism or this spurt of feminism, let's say, 1.00

00:31:17.660 which said women are just as good as men, if not better. 0.99

00:31:21.680 Women can do anything a man can do. 1.00

00:31:23.440 A woman can be a CEO and a boss and behave like a man and have, you know, 1.00

00:31:27.800 like a certain commitment like a man would do in a stereotypical situation

00:31:32.060 and be this kind of Carrie Bradshaw, sex in the city, male-dominant lifestyle. 1.00

00:31:37.820 And that kind of thinking of women and men are just interchangeable, we can act like a man,

00:31:43.960 has kind of led us on this path to now say, I mean, if a woman can have everything a man can have, 0.73

00:31:49.700 a woman can be a man, why can't a man just literally be a woman? 1.00

00:31:52.760 Why can't a woman just literally be a man? 1.00

00:31:54.700 And it's tough to reckon with.

00:31:56.120 And I know a lot of the people who have championed this cause are feminists, 0.92

00:31:59.040 so I know it's a tricky thing to reckon with.

00:32:01.280 But I think we have disintegrated so much what it means positively to be a woman,

00:32:07.800 what it means positively to be a man, and celebrate the differences between them,

00:32:10.800 the kind of complementary differences, that we struggle to unpick socially

00:32:15.880 why it is that this ideology doesn't work.

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00:34:22.220 It's kind of on brand for me,

00:34:24.380 but I'm only asking because it doesn't make much sense.

00:34:27.260 I don't understand the logic of we told women they could be everything that a man is 0.98

00:34:33.300 to then some people thinking, well, you can actually become a man.

00:34:37.800 That doesn't make sense to me because one is about, well, look at you.

00:34:42.120 Like, you have a career.

00:34:43.380 You're out there working just as much as your husband is, right?

00:34:46.200 You're doing all these things. 0.99

00:34:47.780 But I don't understand the leap from that to, well, suddenly I want to cut my breasts off. 0.99

00:34:52.040 That's a little bit far for me.

00:34:53.640 No, I mean, and there's incredible, like, I'm very grateful for the opportunities I have, absolutely.

00:34:58.620 But I think there's an ideology which has said

00:35:01.060 and has disintegrated the things that women used to celebrate being a woman for. 1.00

00:35:05.760 So you very seldom hear motherhood being celebrated today,

00:35:09.280 or even though motherhood is an intrinsic part of being a woman

00:35:11.800 and something only a woman can do. 1.00

00:35:13.280 That doesn't mean that every woman has to be a mother, 0.80

00:35:14.940 but it is a wonderful part of being a mom and to be involved in family life.

00:35:19.660 These things are kind of seen as second-class women now, 1.00

00:35:23.160 whereas the first-class women are seen as the ones who are out there being CEOs and boss babes. 1.00

00:35:27.680 And again, there's nothing morally wrong with either of these things,

00:35:29.860 but I think we've just disintegrated the celebration of the uniqueness of being a woman

00:35:35.260 and then also the uniqueness of being a man.

00:35:37.860 And there's things that men can do that women can't do. 0.66

00:35:40.820 There's strengths that men have physically, but also, you know, in different areas of life

00:35:44.780 that women don't have. 1.00

00:35:46.280 There are biological differences.

00:35:47.580 There are psychological differences.

00:35:49.200 You see that in parenting, right?

00:35:50.340 A woman will be much more the nurturing parent to the small newborn, 0.98

00:35:54.620 and the dad is the one that's more likely to be throwing them up,

00:35:56.480 teaching them different skills.

00:35:58.420 So men and women are different, and that's a good thing, 1.00

00:36:00.720 and there's lots to be celebrated from that.

00:36:02.780 By erasing that, by saying they're just the same, they're just...

00:36:06.640 Anyone can do anything.

00:36:09.320 Then everything is interchangeable.

00:36:11.200 Everything is interchangeable.

00:36:11.480 That makes more sense.

00:36:12.460 And I think that has led us on a path, you know, over many decades now,

00:36:16.180 to have this ideology of, like, well, if we now have the technology

00:36:20.000 that if someone really wants to be a man,

00:36:21.800 instead of saying this woman is a great, has great leadership skills,

00:36:26.900 she said, well, she has a great leadership skill, so she should be a man,

00:36:29.340 and therefore make the technological leap to be a man.

00:36:32.280 And so, yeah, we've kind of ended up with this confusion of gender,

00:36:34.980 this wreck of what it means to have kind of a human difference in biological sex

00:36:42.200 that I think we've lost a lot.

00:36:45.000 Look, I completely agree.

00:36:46.900 Back to the kitchen, you go.

00:36:50.940 But to me, look, the women's rights aspect of this conversation 0.93

00:36:54.980 is obviously important.

00:36:56.980 You know, talking about feminism, very interesting. 0.95

00:37:00.420 But to me, the most important thing about this conversation is the kids.

00:37:04.440 Yeah.

00:37:04.820 And what is happening to the kids, because as somebody who worked with children

00:37:09.920 for 12 years, this idea that a child can identify as another gender

00:37:16.280 and suddenly they're able to consent to all these medical interventions,

00:37:21.120 to surgeries, to me was quite frankly demented.

00:37:24.620 Yeah.

00:37:25.220 Yeah, it absolutely is.

00:37:27.100 And in the UK, although we've gotten rid of puberty blockers for now,

00:37:31.660 we still have this upcoming drug study, drug trial, which will allow,

00:37:37.680 it's capless and allows basically, it's a gateway to allow any children

00:37:42.620 who want to experiment with puberty blockers to join this drug trial

00:37:45.700 and have access to them and still have this bodily harm done to them.

00:37:49.820 Even the puberty blockers, they can cause, you know, bone density damage,

00:37:52.860 heart problems, as well as the psychological effects

00:37:55.860 and the long-term pathway to harmful surgeries.

00:37:59.220 Just to stop, what about the sterilisation aspect of it?

00:38:02.420 Is that also a thing?

00:38:04.220 Yeah, if it goes on long enough, and obviously, of course,

00:38:06.660 one thing leads to another, which will take it, but sterilisation can, yeah,

00:38:10.260 occur after prolonged use of puberty blockers.

00:38:13.460 So what you're effectively saying is, I thought that we'd put this conversation

00:38:17.700 to bed and actually kids and puberty blockers, that is never going to happen again

00:38:22.700 because of the Cass report.

00:38:23.700 Unfortunately not. I mean, it is, it was great to see the Labour government come in

00:38:29.080 and put in that puberty plan and Hamza Yusuf from Scotland, also, you know,

00:38:33.040 quite a left-wing politician.

00:38:34.820 He banded up in Scotland under his leadership as well.

00:38:37.800 So that was exciting to see.

00:38:39.280 But with this drug trial coming in in the UK, that will allow this to continue.

00:38:43.860 And so I have a concern that we're not quite at the victory moment that we think we're at yet.

00:38:49.400 We still have a lot of work to do. We still have to, I would like to see this drug trial cancelled.

00:38:55.460 But I'd like to see this conversation continue so that nobody forgets about this damage that can happen,

00:39:01.320 you know, this sterilisation of kids, the harm to their bodies, the harm to their psychology,

00:39:05.200 and just that fundamental lie that they're not who they're meant to be.

00:39:09.020 But I don't understand, right? There was, a report came in,

00:39:13.760 it advised that puberty blockers should be banned.

00:39:15.700 And this is by one of the most prestigious paediatricians in the country.

00:39:22.560 I thought we'd won. What do you mean that there's a drug trial now?

00:39:26.440 How's this been allowed to happen?

00:39:27.960 A lot of people don't know about it.

00:39:29.620 And so maybe it hasn't had the scrutiny that it deserves.

00:39:33.000 It hasn't come into force yet.

00:39:35.000 But I'm very, very concerned about it.

00:39:36.680 And it's not even just the cast report.

00:39:37.980 We then, only a few months ago, had an American version of the same,

00:39:41.160 saying the same thing as the cast report.

00:39:42.420 And we've had the same evidence come out of Sweden, Finland,

00:39:46.580 across many of the kind of northern European countries.

00:39:49.360 They've produced these reports as well that show that it can be harmful to have these drugs.

00:39:54.960 And yet somewhere underneath, there's still a push.

00:39:57.240 There's still a movement to try and liberalise this law for kids.

00:40:04.840 And so we have to stand really firm.

00:40:06.400 We have to keep having this conversation.

00:40:08.100 We have to keep talking about the harms that this can endure

00:40:10.780 and talk about how perfect and beautiful kids are in their own bodies

00:40:14.200 in order to prevent this coming and prevent us turning back the clock.

00:40:17.500 The victory isn't sealed.

00:40:18.680 We have to keep going.

00:40:19.940 And you say that there's been this push.

00:40:22.100 I mean, is it organisations like Mermaids?

00:40:25.060 I mean, where is this coming from?

00:40:27.020 Surely every right-thinking person now looks at this and goes,

00:40:30.320 this is an abomination.

00:40:31.120 I think there's still, I mean, a lot of the PR kind of battle has been won on this issue.

00:40:37.440 But I think there's still a lot of people within places of power

00:40:40.560 who withhold a different view that are maybe just biding their time.

00:40:44.760 Winning the PR battle is so strong, but it isn't everything.

00:40:48.980 I mean, that is, look, the work that has been done on this by lots of different people,

00:40:55.320 gender-critical feminists and paediatricians and everybody, 0.67

00:40:59.020 it's been incredible.

00:41:00.280 But it's slightly disheartening to hear that it's continuing

00:41:04.640 and that there are these people in positions of power

00:41:07.640 who are still pushing this narrative.

00:41:09.940 Yeah, I know.

00:41:10.920 It's very disheartening because it seems so obviously true, right?

00:41:14.280 It seems like the most important message of our generation

00:41:16.960 and the most critical message,

00:41:19.020 children shouldn't be having these harmful drugs.

00:41:21.600 And the point of this trial is to establish whether it's harmful or not?

00:41:25.280 Yeah, the CAST report actually unfortunately left the door open for this.

00:41:28.640 It said that there can be studies carried out to test further

00:41:31.800 if the puberty blockers cause harm.

00:41:34.500 Now, the U.S. study from the Department of Health and Human Services

00:41:38.100 said that there shouldn't be a trial.

00:41:39.800 They said that this stuff was so dangerous and so immoral

00:41:42.540 that it wouldn't be right to test it on kids.

00:41:44.180 This is like human experiments really, isn't it?

00:41:46.080 Yeah, it's human guinea pigs.

00:41:47.620 Yeah.

00:41:47.880 And so the U.S. report has said don't do it,

00:41:50.020 but the CAST report said it is okay to do it.

00:41:52.400 And so we've been left in this difficult situation in the U.K.

00:41:55.000 So we need, you know, someone firmer and stronger to come in and say no,

00:41:59.800 to look at this evidence and say we don't even want to test this.

00:42:02.960 It isn't right to test it on a child.

00:42:04.940 No child can fully consent to that.

00:42:06.600 They can't consent to being infertile at 30 years old.

00:42:09.840 You know, when I was in Australia talking to Melbourne students

00:42:12.820 who were very woke, they, you know, at 18 were like,

00:42:16.660 I don't care, I don't want to have kids anyway.

00:42:19.240 But when people get to, you know, 30, 35,

00:42:21.760 they're saying give me kids or give me a divorce.

00:42:23.440 You know, it's a total change in lifetime.

00:42:26.400 It's at 18 to 35, you're almost a different person

00:42:29.700 in terms of your views and your desires.

00:42:32.880 And especially if you're taking these drugs at a younger age than 18,

00:42:35.840 if you're taking them at 13 or 12,

00:42:37.540 how are you ever going to know what you want?

00:42:39.920 It's incredible.

00:42:40.700 It's unfair to put that responsibility on a child.

00:42:42.880 And that's why all these drug studies must end.

00:42:45.280 And especially, you know, we have to not only continue this in the U.K.,

00:42:48.460 but around the world, we want to see puberty blockers

00:42:50.440 banned in every single country.

00:42:52.000 And how many kids are involved in this trial?

00:42:54.780 So it's capless.

00:42:55.960 So, I mean, it's not begun yet, but once started,

00:42:59.800 there's currently no cap on how many children can take part.

00:43:02.800 So potentially hundreds of kids can take it and...

00:43:06.280 But there is still time for it to be prevented from going ahead.

00:43:10.560 Well, I hope people are listening to that and learning about that.

00:43:14.920 Lois, the other part of your work that we wanted to talk about,

00:43:18.080 and look, we've had, for full disclosure, on the subject of abortion,

00:43:23.040 we had Anne Furedi, who is very supportive of that being available

00:43:27.120 to women in this country.

00:43:28.720 And we've had your husband, Callum Miller, on the show to talk about

00:43:32.000 the pro-life position or anti-abortion position,

00:43:34.920 whatever you might want to call it.

00:43:36.620 And I can't say that either Francis or I came away from those two discussions

00:43:41.740 with, like, a position firmly in one camp or the other.

00:43:45.760 I won't tell Callum.

00:43:47.680 Well, he's probably watching.

00:43:50.040 But at the same time, you know, my view has always been that

00:43:54.420 kind of where we were in Britain was a very unpleasant and messy,

00:43:59.660 unfortunate compromise that was probably broadly reflective

00:44:03.240 of the wishes of the people of this country.

00:44:05.460 And while, you know, people who are very pro-life like you would not like it,

00:44:09.240 there were also very kind of firm pro-abortion campaigners

00:44:12.460 that might not like it.

00:44:13.320 It was kind of a settled issue in this country.

00:44:16.560 You might not think that's a good thing, but you get what I'm saying, right?

00:44:20.060 And now, what we've got now, the Labour government is just basically

00:44:25.860 decriminalized abortion up until birth.

00:44:29.160 Yeah.

00:44:29.480 And I'm someone who really doesn't want to be talking about this issue.

00:44:32.520 You know, it's not an issue I'm particularly keen to get involved in. 0.99

00:44:37.220 I'm going, what the fuck are you doing? 0.99

00:44:39.060 Yeah, I know. 1.00

00:44:40.280 What was going on?

00:44:41.240 I think a lot of people feel like that.

00:44:43.220 It's crazy.

00:44:44.060 Yeah.

00:44:44.560 That is crazy.

00:44:45.640 Yeah.

00:44:46.060 Up to birth.

00:44:46.640 What are you talking about?

00:44:48.960 So what happened?

00:44:50.580 Yeah.

00:44:51.820 Yeah.

00:44:52.440 So, I mean, I think a lot of people have reacted like you reacted

00:44:55.480 because we had, as you say, an abortion lot, 24 weeks.

00:44:58.560 Most people in the country didn't actually know when it was.

00:45:01.600 I mean, they knew it was somewhere in the middle.

00:45:03.020 24 weeks is actually quite high for the average person.

00:45:05.480 According to polling, when finding out it's 24 weeks, which is double the EU average,

00:45:10.960 most EU countries are at 12 to 15 weeks, 70% of women actually wanted to see that lowered

00:45:15.500 because at 24 weeks, it's a viable child.

00:45:17.500 There's a lot of characteristics which people would want to protect.

00:45:20.040 And so, actually, the majority of people wanted it lowered and only 1% of women actually wanted 1.00

00:45:26.480 to see abortion up to birth.

00:45:28.400 And yet, now we have this situation which was catalyzed during COVID because they introduced

00:45:34.980 pills by post-abortion.

00:45:36.320 So this was a scheme where within the first 10 weeks of pregnancy, you could call up an abortion

00:45:41.680 provider, say, in less than 10 weeks, and you would receive pills to do your own abortion

00:45:45.940 in your own bathroom, which actually seems to me like one of the reasons that we brought

00:45:50.620 in abortion in the first place was to avoid women doing it to themselves, by themselves.

00:45:54.960 It doesn't seem safe or dangerous to me.

00:45:56.560 In fact, there was a lot of investigations to show that it increased the likelihood of people

00:46:00.620 needing an ambulance, needing medical care after.

00:46:02.980 But this is the situation that was brought in.

00:46:05.100 Unfortunately, it's both easy to mistake how far you want in a pregnancy.

00:46:11.880 It's also quite easy to lie about how far you are on in a pregnancy.

00:46:16.160 And so, there were some cases of women who would call up at 33, 35 weeks, really near the

00:46:22.940 end of pregnancy, say that they're less than 10 weeks after a short conversation, receive

00:46:27.100 these pills, and carry out an abortion on a viable, healthy baby in a very horrific circumstance.

00:46:33.120 Of course, you need to birth that child after you've taken those pills.

00:46:37.300 There was a very famous case called Carla Foster, who birthed her dead baby.

00:46:41.720 She later called her Lily.

00:46:42.980 She talked about the traumatic experience it was.

00:46:44.960 And she did face prosecution for what she had done to this child, because an abortion at 33 to 35 weeks 0.97

00:46:50.960 was illegal.

00:46:51.400 Instead, my response to the tragedy of what happened to Carla and her baby, and for the few others

00:46:58.720 that it affected, in terms of other women engaging in this illegal action, was, my goodness, 0.98

00:47:05.380 we need to end pills by post-abortion. 0.85

00:47:07.900 So, to protect women, the law is there not to criminalize, but also to protect. 0.99

00:47:12.720 To protect women from being in this situation, no one should be delivering their dead child 1.00

00:47:16.260 alone in their bathroom.

00:47:17.120 This is horrific.

00:47:19.140 And no child should have to face, at that stage, very pain-capable, very sentient, would

00:47:24.200 have faced a horrific death as a baby at 35 weeks as well.

00:47:29.560 So, that's what I thought.

00:47:31.620 You know, protect the law, strengthen the law.

00:47:33.440 Other people thought, well, let's get rid of the law so that women who do this at this 1.00

00:47:37.900 stage don't face prosecution.

00:47:40.280 And so, what we will likely see now is, instead of this affecting a small percentage of women

00:47:45.380 who take this action towards the end of their pregnancy, it's now not criminalized.

00:47:49.740 There's no law to deter women from engaging in this. 1.00

00:47:53.680 So, it could be that we see an increase now in these babies being lost at this very late

00:47:59.960 stage in pregnancy.

00:48:01.040 It's also horrible for the women. 1.00

00:48:02.420 And I know people who've had the miscarriage fairly early on in the pregnancy, for whom

00:48:07.660 that and the process, I won't go into details, but very, very physically challenging, sometimes

00:48:14.620 life-threatening, actually.

00:48:18.640 Even if you think abortion should be available to whatever point, I don't think you'd want 0.89

00:48:23.620 to encourage people to do it themselves without medical support in this way, where there's

00:48:29.320 also, as you say, no verification of the age of the baby.

00:48:32.140 I just, I don't, this isn't right.

00:48:35.360 Yeah, I know.

00:48:36.240 This really isn't right.

00:48:37.220 I know.

00:48:37.880 I know. 0.97

00:48:38.440 And so, now we're in this ridiculous scenario where you can do it to yourself at the latest

00:48:42.440 and most dangerous stage of pregnancy, but a doctor can't help you.

00:48:45.560 And so, obviously, the next step for that movement is going to say, well, we must legalize

00:48:49.120 it for doctors as well.

00:48:50.380 And therefore, we just have no abortion law left in this country.

00:48:52.880 It will be up to 40 weeks for any reason.

00:48:55.280 Which actually is very much out of step with the majority of polling.

00:48:58.800 Very few people think it should be for any reason at all.

00:49:01.420 Very, very few people think it should be up to birth.

00:49:04.240 You know, if you think about, if you've seen a newborn baby, it doesn't look very different

00:49:07.460 the day before.

00:49:08.140 It's just in a geographically different place than its mother's womb.

00:49:10.380 But to say, you know, on that day, a baby in that morning waking up could be killed or

00:49:16.660 could be born, you know, on one day, it's, I think it's actually good for us as a nation

00:49:22.320 to be face to face with the level of evil this is, the level of depravity this is, that

00:49:29.120 we've allowed ourselves to kill babies at this stage.

00:49:32.700 I think we needed that wake up call.

00:49:34.600 And maybe now we can kind of reconsider, is this really what we want?

00:49:37.760 Do we?

00:49:38.120 I can't imagine.

00:49:39.140 Look, I think it's very important to distinguish between legalizing abortion, which is not what's

00:49:44.440 happened, right?

00:49:45.600 But you explained it very well.

00:49:48.340 But nonetheless, I can't imagine the majority of people in Britain or even a significant

00:49:53.280 minority of people in Britain want women to be getting a pill through the post that they

00:49:59.180 take.

00:49:59.820 And even if the baby is almost ready to be born, do you want to prosecute women for it? 0.99

00:50:08.840 You probably should just not allow people to do have an abortion by post.

00:50:12.660 That's probably what you actually should deal with.

00:50:15.640 But I just, I don't understand how this has happened.

00:50:20.500 I think it's really terrible.

00:50:22.400 I think it's really terrible as well.

00:50:23.980 I mean, at that stage in pregnancy, you have to give birth to the child anyway.

00:50:27.520 People kind of think that abortion is like a magic pill that just disappears the child.

00:50:31.280 You have to deliver that child dead or alive.

00:50:34.440 So why not?

00:50:35.240 If you don't, if you're in a situation where you cannot take care of that child, can you

00:50:38.860 not allow them to live and find, you know, adoption is an option?

00:50:42.580 Can we allow them a chance at life? 0.99

00:50:44.200 Do we have to kill the child at that stage? 0.99

00:50:45.780 It's perfectly healthy, perfectly viable. 0.97

00:50:47.260 It's so difficult to come face to face with.

00:50:52.160 And yet here we are as a nation.

00:50:53.300 That's what we've decided that we want.

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00:52:08.340 You know, for a society that is obsessed with mental health and constantly bangs on about

00:52:17.320 mental health to the point where everybody is now sick of it, you go, do you not worry

00:52:23.340 about the mental health of a mother who is maybe weeks or even days away from having a

00:52:29.200 baby and then orders those pills? 1.00

00:52:31.980 Right.

00:52:32.660 If that's not a cry for help, I don't actually know what is.

00:52:35.660 Yeah.

00:52:36.120 In fact, a pro-choice scholar, David Ferguson from Australia, he's one of the leading pro-choice

00:52:40.600 scholars, but he's passed away now.

00:52:42.260 But he did research on mental health and abortion and showed that actually abortion can increase

00:52:48.600 someone's risk to suicidality by 70 percent and drug abuse by almost 300 percent.

00:52:53.460 You know, it's an incredible, it was an incredibly traumatic event to go through.

00:52:58.560 I think in our kind of propaganda and our rhetoric today, we minimize this as just, oh, it's

00:53:04.620 just someone's choice.

00:53:05.440 It's just a pill that they take.

00:53:06.840 You know, it's just like getting a tooth pulled is what I've been told multiple times.

00:53:10.220 It's not.

00:53:10.760 It's a incredibly traumatic life event which ends the life of one of the people involved.

00:53:15.820 And I think because we don't take it seriously, we've allowed ourselves to get to the situation

00:53:20.660 because if it's not a life, if it's not a life, then it wouldn't matter, right?

00:53:25.500 If it's not a life, then it doesn't matter if it's 24 weeks or 40 weeks.

00:53:30.100 But if it is, then this is the most serious and grave situation that we find ourselves in.

00:53:36.180 And I think we have to reckon with that as a nation and think, do we want this?

00:53:40.420 Do we want abortion after birth? 1.00

00:53:41.420 Do we think that babies do not count because they are smaller or weaker or more dependent

00:53:45.620 on their mother?

00:53:46.740 Is that the kind of human rights framework that we subscribe to?

00:53:50.100 Or do we want to have to give people a bit more value just based on the fact that they're

00:53:55.000 human, just based on the fact that they are, you know, a member of our species, a member

00:53:58.680 of our race?

00:53:59.180 Can we protect them and find better for those babies and for their mothers instead?

00:54:03.780 But, and I take the point about the baby, but I think my point was something else,

00:54:07.800 which is, if, look, having a child, and I've seen friends go through it, and it's profoundly

00:54:14.060 stressful, particularly for the mother, you know, postpartum depression, hormones all

00:54:19.000 over the place.

00:54:21.300 There should be a mental health intervention if a woman is saying with a matter of weeks 1.00

00:54:27.720 to go that she wants to abort her baby. 1.00

00:54:30.440 There is something very serious happening mentally. 1.00

00:54:32.860 That woman needs support, not here's some pills and go into a bathroom and kill your 1.00

00:54:37.560 kid. 1.00

00:54:38.080 Exactly, exactly.

00:54:39.340 And I think because abortion has become so trivialised, I think, you know, even this is

00:54:43.760 the most extreme case of it, but I think all along the journey with abortion is often seen

00:54:48.120 as just a, oh, you're in trouble or you're distressed, you're worried about this pregnancy,

00:54:52.040 let's take an abortion pill. 1.00

00:54:53.000 You know, it's seen as just a really quick reliever, a really quick solution.

00:54:56.260 And that, you know, that can be a cry for help early in pregnancy as well, but especially

00:55:01.740 late on.

00:55:02.540 You're absolutely right.

00:55:03.460 If they have carried this child for 35 weeks and they want to just take a pill to end their 0.98

00:55:09.820 life, it does make no sense.

00:55:11.560 And we should have much more serious mental health safeguarding within this kind of area

00:55:17.080 or this kind of industry, this abortion industry. 0.85

00:55:19.260 But I think because, like, ideologically, it has been reduced so much to just a woman's

00:55:27.000 rights issue, it has been reduced to, you know, it's my body, my choice, it's just a pill,

00:55:30.900 it's just like getting a tooth pulled.

00:55:32.180 Because it has become, you know, such a, been diminished so much, they don't have those mental

00:55:37.580 health safeguards in place, don't have those physical health safeguards in place, or those

00:55:41.260 legal safeguards to protect women from going through this experience.

00:55:44.080 And it also says something, I mean, horrifically antenatal about our culture. 0.98

00:55:49.260 The fact that this is deemed acceptable is, it's quite frankly, disgusting.

00:55:54.020 Yeah, an anti-mother, right? 0.83

00:55:55.760 Yeah.

00:55:56.160 So I guess putting out the message that this is better than becoming a mother.

00:55:59.700 And I think, you know, we really lack a lot of support for mums and for babies in those

00:56:05.280 early stages.

00:56:06.000 There's a lot more that we can be doing in our society, in our community to help mothers,

00:56:11.200 you know, be in community with each other, be meeting other mums, be, you know, not stressed

00:56:16.680 about having to go back to work straight away, but instead of be supported to take the time

00:56:19.800 off that they need.

00:56:21.000 There's so much more we can be doing to help and support mothers and babies.

00:56:24.040 But instead, what we often just offer is, you know, is your body your choice, so it's

00:56:27.700 your problem your choice.

00:56:28.720 Like, you want to have this baby, you're on your own, or you just take an abortion pill. 0.70

00:56:31.640 We don't have that support that would be so much better.

00:56:34.240 And do you think this is a case of just people trying to solve a legal problem so they make

00:56:39.280 a law that's probably not very smart?

00:56:41.760 Or is there kind of an extreme ideological bent to all of this?

00:56:45.520 I think there's an ideological bent.

00:56:46.860 I think it's clear that on the kind of pro-abortion lobby side, there can't be anything wrong with 0.88

00:56:54.560 abortion because then if one thing is wrong with abortion, then everything is wrong.

00:56:58.140 It's one of those black and white issues.

00:56:59.480 But that's a very extreme framing of it, Lois, surely, because I think, and the polling

00:57:05.400 to which you refer probably shows all of this, probably, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I

00:57:09.600 imagine most people in this country support abortion being available at some point.

00:57:13.280 Sure.

00:57:13.640 Right?

00:57:13.960 Is that fair?

00:57:14.420 Yeah, sure.

00:57:15.160 And most people recognize that it is a women's rights issue to some extent.

00:57:19.320 Sure.

00:57:19.700 Because it affects women in a very profound way, right?

00:57:22.660 But on the other hand, the woman is not the only person involved.

00:57:25.920 And so what you're trying to do is find some sort of compromise, right, which is where

00:57:31.800 I think most of the country is at.

00:57:33.380 Is that a fair observation?

00:57:35.280 Right?

00:57:35.580 But this is extreme.

00:57:37.060 Yeah.

00:57:37.400 This is really extreme.

00:57:38.920 Yeah.

00:57:39.240 And so I'm just trying to understand, is it because they were like, well, look, actually,

00:57:44.620 well, you know, even when I think about it, do I want this woman who's probably in a really 1.00

00:57:49.320 terrible state of mind, who's made a bad decision, a terrible decision for her that's going

00:57:54.240 to affect her for the rest of her life, do I want her to then also go to prison for it? 1.00

00:58:00.180 When you frame it like that, I don't know.

00:58:03.400 What I'd rather is she, if you're going to have an abortion, you have medical support, 1.00

00:58:08.760 you have counseling around that, you have all the things there to make sure that you,

00:58:13.820 you know, physically, medically, in other ways, you're supported.

00:58:17.200 That's what I'd prefer.

00:58:18.260 So do you think they just hadn't considered this aspect of it, or is the Labour government 0.99

00:58:23.360 really kind of like, oh, let's just, you know, allow women to kill babies? 1.00

00:58:27.220 Well, no, we agree more than you think, because I also think this isn't the average person's 0.97

00:58:31.160 wish.

00:58:31.440 I don't think the average person was working on this.

00:58:33.520 But I think that there is a pro-abortion lobby that would take a more extreme view.

00:58:38.880 And you think they've influenced this decision?

00:58:40.580 Yeah, I think, to me, it seems like a clear pathway to go from pills by post to legalizing

00:58:48.100 abortion, or sorry, decriminalizing abortion for women at the end of pregnancy, and then

00:58:52.880 decriminalizing it for doctors.

00:58:54.420 There's a clear kind of pathway.

00:58:55.140 We can't let women do this by themselves. 1.00

00:58:56.800 We've got to have medical help there.

00:58:58.520 You can see the kind of slope.

00:59:00.200 This is crazy.

00:59:01.220 This is insane, though.

00:59:02.840 Yeah.

00:59:03.240 This isn't right.

00:59:04.320 This is not acceptable.

00:59:05.580 Yeah.

00:59:07.100 This is crazy.

00:59:08.020 No, I know I keep repeating myself.

00:59:09.420 I literally haven't, this is completely unacceptable.

00:59:12.640 I know.

00:59:14.300 So, do you sense that there's a potential for any kind of amendments to this going forward?

00:59:20.780 Is this being looked at, or is this now, you know, they've decided and this is where

00:59:23.960 we are?

00:59:24.420 Well, I've been encouraged, as you said at the start, a lot of people who have never really

00:59:30.140 engaged in this issue suddenly have kind of formed an opinion in the last few weeks

00:59:33.800 and seen the extremity of where we're at.

00:59:36.200 I don't know if I'm speaking that, and I include politicians in that from different

00:59:40.000 parties.

00:59:41.280 And I think, you know, it's, I don't think the matter is settled.

00:59:45.200 I think it's going to be something that's discussed in upcoming elections.

00:59:48.720 I think parties will be thinking right now how they want to respond to this in their

00:59:52.460 manifesto, for example, because it had, I think they won the political battle, but I

00:59:58.940 don't think they won the PR battle.

01:00:00.240 I don't think they won the nation over to this idea that it should be all the way up to

01:00:03.840 birth.

01:00:04.040 I tell you, Lo, you know, someone who understands public communication a little bit, if you

01:00:08.880 get normal people to recognize what's happened here and to fully understand it, whoever passed

01:00:14.400 this is going to have no support whatsoever.

01:00:16.100 This is not going to be popular with the public when they get what's happened.

01:00:18.900 Yeah.

01:00:19.340 The ordinary British person isn't going to be on board with this.

01:00:22.480 Yeah.

01:00:22.720 They just aren't.

01:00:23.380 It's already not popular.

01:00:24.780 Again, you know, polling shows only 1% of women actually support abortion up to birth,

01:00:29.140 which is, I mean, obvious when you think about it.

01:00:31.380 Very few support abortion up to birth.

01:00:33.500 So I think they did push their luck on going this far.

01:00:36.440 24 weeks was already extreme.

01:00:37.960 24 weeks was already one of the most liberal in the world.

01:00:40.520 To go up to 40 was too far.

01:00:43.440 And I think this opens the conversation again for where do we want to put this?

01:00:47.080 Where do we want to start protecting life?

01:00:48.660 But it's also recklessly irresponsible because you're just going to dish out these pills to

01:00:54.680 women who are, let's say, eight months pregnant. 0.98

01:00:57.880 You don't know what the psychological state of this woman is. 1.00

01:01:00.680 Maybe she can't consent. 1.00

01:01:02.700 Maybe she's so depressed, which happens to a lot of women. 0.97

01:01:06.100 Maybe she's in a position where she simply can't consent for whatever reason to be taking

01:01:11.600 these pills.

01:01:12.540 She takes the pill.

01:01:14.320 Yeah.

01:01:14.880 I mean, that's a potential lawsuit, surely.

01:01:17.720 Yeah.

01:01:18.180 Well, I mean, what about, you know, this is the case at the start, you know, even if they

01:01:22.080 aren't at the end of their pregnancy, if they're calling up for pills at any stage, how do you

01:01:26.520 know that that's not an 18-year-old sitting with her 45-year-old boyfriend across the

01:01:30.680 table who's also listening to the phone?

01:01:32.800 And the abortion fighter says, is this all because, is this all your own idea?

01:01:36.900 And she says, yes, yes.

01:01:37.880 Well, while he's going.

01:01:38.800 While he's going, yes, exactly.

01:01:40.120 So when we brought in this way to get an abortion pill with such little safeguarding, with such

01:01:47.380 little care or prevention of, you know, abuses, it used to be that if you would go in to get

01:01:53.740 your abortion pill, you'd have a bit of counselling and they'd be able to ask you on your own,

01:01:56.640 is anyone influencing you to do this?

01:01:58.300 Can you lie there?

01:01:59.100 Yes.

01:01:59.860 It's not fail-safe.

01:02:00.760 Absolutely not.

01:02:01.780 But at least it's a little bit more than, you know, a quick phone call with someone you've

01:02:05.520 never met just, you know, when you're just trying to get a hold of these pills.

01:02:08.920 So when we reduced abortion pills, just to, you know, getting, it's almost like getting

01:02:14.160 a paracetamol through the post, you know, it's... 0.97

01:02:15.820 Look, during COVID, all kinds of crazy shit happened. 0.97

01:02:18.440 It was, a lot of it was completely unacceptable. 0.98

01:02:20.180 But you kind of go, it was COVID, you know, there's lots of arguments about a woman stuck 0.99

01:02:24.320 with her abusive boyfriend.

01:02:26.020 You can kind of like imagine it.

01:02:28.040 COVID's over.

01:02:29.780 And now we should be repealing the things that were extremely...

01:02:34.000 But instead, politicians doubled down and they made this permanent.

01:02:37.060 Doesn't make any sense.

01:02:38.100 Sorry, Frances.

01:02:38.600 Do you think this is a cost-cutting exercise?

01:02:40.980 So like, if you think about every time, let's say a woman's eight months pregnant, she wants 1.00

01:02:46.060 to, she wants to kill her baby. 1.00

01:02:48.220 Let's just be honest. 1.00

01:02:48.820 That's what it is.

01:02:50.100 And they go to a doctor.

01:02:51.780 It's actually far cheaper for them not to have to go to a GP and a GP will talk to this

01:02:56.800 person and go, actually, this woman is...

01:02:58.740 Well, she can't go to a doctor if the baby is eight months, right?

01:03:01.820 At this point?

01:03:03.500 Yeah.

01:03:04.060 So it would...

01:03:04.680 She wouldn't be able to get a doctor after 24 weeks to... 1.00

01:03:07.520 Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

01:03:08.140 Well, there's some situations, but they're rare.

01:03:10.360 Okay.

01:03:10.840 So...

01:03:11.360 But you just go, nothing about this makes sense.

01:03:13.780 And look, I know this is going...

01:03:15.820 People are going to get upset about this, but I just imagine if you're the father of that

01:03:20.240 child.

01:03:20.940 Yeah.

01:03:21.580 And then you find out that your eight-month-old baby has effectively been killed.

01:03:26.320 I...

01:03:26.680 I don't know what I would do.

01:03:31.120 That would feel...

01:03:32.200 Well, it's...

01:03:32.840 That's the death of my child.

01:03:34.240 Yeah.

01:03:35.320 Yeah.

01:03:36.040 I think that's...

01:03:37.360 I think abortion culture has really impacted men and fatherhood as well.

01:03:42.440 Just something that just doesn't come up as often.

01:03:44.160 And I understand why.

01:03:45.000 I mean, I understand that.

01:03:45.720 Sorry, Liz.

01:03:45.840 I now keep interrupting.

01:03:46.740 What's abortion culture? 1.00

01:03:48.880 The idea that it should be prominent and normal, like that Lily Allen laughing about

01:03:54.440 having her five abortions is just a regular occurrence, that it's your body, your choice,

01:03:59.540 and no one can question it.

01:04:01.040 The cultural presumption that abortion is okay and even good kind of backfired on both men

01:04:09.600 and women, because it used to be that, and this is obviously, you know, an ideal scenario 1.00

01:04:13.360 and it didn't always work out like this, but it used to be that if you got a girl pregnant, 0.94

01:04:17.460 you would probably marry her, you would take responsibility, you'd become parents, mother

01:04:21.160 and father.

01:04:21.540 With the advent of my body, my choice, it really became your body, your choice, your issue,

01:04:27.560 your problem, you're on your run.

01:04:28.540 If you want to keep this baby, it's on you.

01:04:30.840 And so that allowed the disintegration of that fatherhood responsibility.

01:04:35.860 It allows men to abandon their responsibility, is what you're really saying. 0.67

01:04:39.080 It allows men to abandon, and it also now kind of enforces that abandonment,

01:04:43.720 because men have no say whether their child is aborted.

01:04:48.620 And, you know, it's a sense to them on, and I can understand, you know,

01:04:51.580 people feel like it's a woman's body. 1.00

01:04:52.860 I understand that they have carried the hardship of the pregnancy.

01:04:56.100 But in disintegrating this idea that it was meant to be together,

01:04:59.220 it was meant to be a joint responsibility.

01:05:00.860 It's actually atomized and isolated both parts, which makes it much harder on both.

01:05:06.480 And I just feel that this is a part of the conversation that's not being talked about,

01:05:11.260 because particularly for men, if eight months old and the baby is killed,

01:05:16.800 that's, and then there's, what are you left with?

01:05:20.060 There's no recourse to any type of justice or anything.

01:05:24.740 You're just left with the knowledge that your baby has been killed.

01:05:27.320 And what do you do?

01:05:28.240 You just get up and go to work the next day and carry on as if nothing has happened?

01:05:31.520 Right.

01:05:32.100 That's a profound grief that's going to be impacted upon you.

01:05:35.220 Yeah.

01:05:35.720 And there's a kind of psychological dissonance as well.

01:05:38.120 I know at least in Scotland, maybe in England as well,

01:05:40.320 you can now get a kind of death certificate if you have a miscarriage in your pregnancy,

01:05:45.460 even before 24 weeks.

01:05:47.400 To acknowledge the pain.

01:05:48.560 To acknowledge the pain and suffering.

01:05:49.540 To acknowledge the loss of that life,

01:05:50.940 to acknowledge that there was a child that was there and now there isn't.

01:05:54.600 So, you know, you can have this.

01:05:57.280 Our society, our government grants this recognition to some children,

01:06:01.620 but others, because of a decision that was made,

01:06:04.320 they're just a clump of cells.

01:06:06.060 Our human dignity or human worth can't just depend on whether we are wanted.

01:06:09.620 It's got to depend on something more than that.

01:06:12.000 You know, it's interesting.

01:06:12.740 I've never thought about this, but you kind of,

01:06:14.840 when you mentioned men taking responsibility,

01:06:16.960 I never thought about it this way, but people might not know this about me.

01:06:20.400 So I was born when my mum was 18.

01:06:22.540 She'd just turned 18 four days before.

01:06:25.500 And my dad was 20.

01:06:26.720 They met at university, probably had a one-night stand or whatever.

01:06:29.540 And, you know, they could have had a different option in my case.

01:06:36.460 But my dad did take responsibility.

01:06:39.000 My parents' marriage, you know, not necessarily the best one.

01:06:43.260 But nonetheless, four children, all in the, you know,

01:06:48.140 happy and unhappy in their own different ways.

01:06:49.820 But, like, I might not have been here.

01:06:53.700 Yeah.

01:06:54.580 The world doesn't get constant kissing.

01:06:55.940 Yeah, well, a lot of people would be happy about that.

01:06:58.300 So you've all missed out.

01:07:00.040 No, but, like, I think that's a very profound point, actually.

01:07:05.300 And I've always felt, it's not that I was ever likely to be in that position,

01:07:08.840 but I'd always nonetheless felt that if I was in a position

01:07:11.540 where a child was coming into the world because of me,

01:07:14.440 ultimately it was my responsibility.

01:07:17.160 Yeah, right.

01:07:17.340 I think it's a very unhealthy society that doesn't teach men that.

01:07:21.620 It doesn't expect that of them, but also does not create the conditions

01:07:24.720 for that to also then be reciprocated with, as you say,

01:07:28.240 them having some input into that decision being made as well.

01:07:32.060 Now, I would hope, nonetheless, and maybe you can tell us, Lois,

01:07:35.240 that in most situations, nonetheless, it is the two potential parents

01:07:39.260 who are having that discussion.

01:07:41.580 Is that?

01:07:41.940 It depends.

01:07:42.680 I mean, there's no way to measure.

01:07:44.260 There's no way to gather data on that kind of thing.

01:07:47.300 So, you know, whether it's together or a lot of girls will, 0.92

01:07:50.480 I mean, because it's so diminished and demeaned,

01:07:53.020 a lot of girls will just do it by themselves. 1.00

01:07:55.100 I see what you're saying.

01:07:55.720 I've got the encouragement of friends.

01:07:56.660 I've got a good friend who had an abortion at 19,

01:07:59.120 effectively because her friends told her to

01:08:00.740 and told her it would be no big deal.

01:08:02.900 And that was, you know, one of the most profound regrets of her life.

01:08:06.380 And so, yeah, when you were talking, Constantine,

01:08:08.360 I was thinking as well that it's just kind of baked into society

01:08:11.900 from a young age because instead of having that,

01:08:14.260 expectation of fatherhood and responsibility,

01:08:17.340 at schools now we have a lot of sex ed.

01:08:19.840 We don't have any family ed.

01:08:21.020 We don't have, we get told consistently how to avoid pregnancy,

01:08:24.600 but nothing about...

01:08:25.400 Well, it's because then you're moralizing.

01:08:27.220 You're telling people the stable family with the mom and the dad

01:08:30.840 is like, you know, you're excluding people

01:08:33.380 and all this other stuff.

01:08:35.520 Which, of course, yes, I'm somewhat sensitive

01:08:37.840 to making sure everyone's included.

01:08:39.180 But also there is a typical way of doing this thing that works.

01:08:44.440 And that also ought to be communicated somehow, it seems to me.

01:08:48.140 Yeah.

01:08:48.440 And I was very fortunate, I guess,

01:08:50.200 because I was brought up in the culture,

01:08:51.600 A, in the culture, but also in a family

01:08:53.080 where these things were kind of, you know, made manifest to me.

01:08:56.160 Yeah.

01:08:56.820 But I can totally see how absent that,

01:08:59.900 in a society where technologically everything is now so easy

01:09:03.020 and just, oh, you know, you order a delivery

01:09:06.380 and an abortion pill in the same transaction.

01:09:09.140 Yeah.

01:09:10.860 It's not good.

01:09:12.080 Yeah.

01:09:12.420 It's not good, Lois.

01:09:13.360 It's not.

01:09:14.680 It's not.

01:09:15.400 It's not good at all.

01:09:16.880 Yeah.

01:09:17.320 And I think you're right in terms of the, you know,

01:09:19.420 we're scared to speak about a mom and a dad being best for a child.

01:09:23.980 But, again, it's kind of prioritizing adult wants and desires

01:09:29.660 and needs above what's good and healthy and right

01:09:32.660 and statistically appropriate.

01:09:34.400 You know, like having a father in the picture in the home

01:09:37.480 is going to prevent that child by many hundreds of percentage points

01:09:40.740 from committing crime, from failing out at school.

01:09:44.380 It's going to have a much better chance of going into university,

01:09:48.520 having a stable appointment, good health.

01:09:49.820 You know, like the statistics are just so clear and obvious.

01:09:52.220 The data is there about good fathers and good mothers.

01:09:54.760 And I appreciate that there'll be situations, of course,

01:09:57.140 that a woman will have no choice but to go alone 0.95

01:09:59.980 and we should give her all the support that she needs.

01:10:01.600 And there'll be situations where dads are cut out of the picture

01:10:03.920 without their, and that's really tough as well.

01:10:06.180 But I think we should at least talk about how we can promote

01:10:10.060 and help families to have that ideal scenario

01:10:12.860 and to support their child in the best way.

01:10:14.800 Yeah.

01:10:14.960 And by the way, just to, sorry, Francis, just on, I want,

01:10:17.820 I know people who are same-sex couples

01:10:19.560 who are bringing up children brilliantly.

01:10:22.220 And so this is why it's difficult,

01:10:23.680 because I certainly don't want to say, you know,

01:10:26.760 these types of couples can't raise a child properly.

01:10:29.940 And that is what a lot of people hear.

01:10:32.340 But at the same time, there's got to be room to say

01:10:34.500 that the typical way of this, the way that this is done,

01:10:37.300 is like a mom and a dad.

01:10:39.280 And that's something that we might want to tell children

01:10:42.520 at some point.

01:10:43.300 We might also tell them that, you know, in some occasions,

01:10:46.600 some people are different, they might do this.

01:10:48.120 But broadly speaking, we should also be communicating that.

01:10:52.960 That seems to me like the right balance.

01:10:55.800 The problem with this inclusion agenda

01:10:57.940 is that it's become exclusion.

01:10:59.960 If it was about inclusion, which is like,

01:11:02.220 look, this is kind of how we normally do it,

01:11:04.620 but this thing also happens, and we are aware of that

01:11:07.380 and accepting of that and tolerant of that,

01:11:09.560 that's fine by me, at least.

01:11:11.940 But we've gone too far now, it seems to me,

01:11:14.120 to the point where we're just excluding the norm

01:11:17.100 and celebrating only the non-typical way of being.

01:11:21.660 Yeah.

01:11:22.580 I mean, Katie Faust is one of the best writers out there on this.

01:11:25.620 She was raised by two lesbian moms.

01:11:27.720 I didn't know that about Katie.

01:11:28.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:11:29.480 And she now does a lot of work challenging the...

01:11:34.140 She takes a child-first approach,

01:11:36.000 which I think is really helpful.

01:11:37.680 And so is it...

01:11:40.240 Are there intrinsic desires in adults to have children?

01:11:44.080 And is that a lovely thing?

01:11:44.900 Yes, absolutely.

01:11:45.740 And I don't want to diminish that at all,

01:11:47.060 but is it right to deprive a child of a father

01:11:50.700 or deprive a child of a mother?

01:11:51.860 That's really hard on the child,

01:11:53.160 and we can't be blind to what that does

01:11:56.400 for a newborn baby to be taken away from a mother,

01:11:58.540 for example, in a surrogacy situation,

01:12:00.440 and be deprived of that mother

01:12:01.540 to fulfill the well-meaning desires of another couple.

01:12:05.440 I think that's something that we have to challenge

01:12:07.060 a little bit or unbiases on.

01:12:08.800 But you're right also that if you look

01:12:09.960 at a children's library these days,

01:12:11.200 you'd think that that was the average situation

01:12:12.780 and that the children with a mom and dad are not normal.

01:12:15.660 And yeah, I think there just has to be

01:12:17.240 a lot more of an open conversation on this,

01:12:19.220 and people are very scared, and it's difficult.

01:12:21.940 You don't want to offend people,

01:12:22.960 but we have to talk about the data.

01:12:24.580 Oh, look, this is a very uncomfortable conversation

01:12:26.460 to be having.

01:12:27.100 We're talking about the sex ed thing.

01:12:28.780 What we don't teach women is about their fertility. 1.00

01:12:31.780 Yep.

01:12:32.160 And how fertility decreases over age

01:12:34.380 until they come to a point

01:12:35.380 when it becomes very unlikely, then impossible.

01:12:37.600 Yeah.

01:12:38.740 And with some women, you know, 1.00

01:12:41.300 the older they get,

01:12:42.640 fertility sometimes falls off a cliff.

01:12:44.760 It's just an unfortunate truth.

01:12:47.760 And sometimes a woman has an abortion early on. 1.00

01:12:50.740 That may be one of the few chances

01:12:52.220 she actually has of having a child.

01:12:54.980 And it would be,

01:12:56.240 I'm sure there are women out there 1.00

01:12:57.540 who had an abortion

01:12:58.860 and then subsequently tried to have kids,

01:13:00.960 couldn't have it later on in life.

01:13:02.780 I mean, not only the regret

01:13:04.780 that they must feel,

01:13:06.040 it must be awful.

01:13:07.040 Awful.

01:13:07.460 Yeah, you're right.

01:13:08.340 We came across, you know,

01:13:09.640 a story in a Facebook forum

01:13:11.600 or something like that

01:13:12.240 where it was a 34-year-old woman 0.96

01:13:13.800 who was posting about,

01:13:15.500 should I get an abortion? 1.00

01:13:16.220 I just feel like I'm so young

01:13:17.300 to have a child.

01:13:18.300 What?

01:13:18.700 And my partner and I,

01:13:19.660 we've only been together seven years.

01:13:20.820 And it's,

01:13:23.360 I mean,

01:13:23.620 I think we have an infantilisation

01:13:24.900 of like kind of 20s and 30s,

01:13:27.000 don't we?

01:13:27.320 If you get to 34

01:13:28.320 and you think you're still too young

01:13:29.440 to have a child,

01:13:30.620 too young, gosh.

01:13:32.780 You're one year away

01:13:33.540 from having a geriatric pregnancy,

01:13:35.560 as unpleasant as that term

01:13:36.980 might be for people.

01:13:38.200 It's true.

01:13:38.720 And a lot of people don't realise that.

01:13:39.860 And I think, you know,

01:13:40.720 we're plugged,

01:13:41.760 even on the tube right now in London,

01:13:44.900 there's adverts for IVF.

01:13:47.020 And the Scottish government

01:13:47.800 are actually promoting programmes

01:13:49.060 trying to get girls 1.00

01:13:50.180 at universities

01:13:50.780 to donate eggs for money

01:13:53.140 so that older people 1.00

01:13:54.240 can have children.

01:13:56.060 And we're kind of locked

01:13:57.420 into this weird

01:13:58.220 kind of technological dystopian,

01:14:00.100 like,

01:14:00.380 oh, leave it too late

01:14:01.140 because you want to do

01:14:01.720 other things first.

01:14:02.440 And don't worry,

01:14:02.900 we'll fix it with technology

01:14:03.860 when you're ready in your 40s.

01:14:05.620 Very few people are told

01:14:06.520 that IVF most times doesn't work.

01:14:08.600 It's very expensive

01:14:09.520 and very hard to go through,

01:14:11.380 especially on a woman's body. 0.99

01:14:12.740 It's, you know,

01:14:13.080 it's extremely challenging.

01:14:15.200 We're not told

01:14:15.700 any of this reality.

01:14:16.440 We just promoted it as,

01:14:17.860 don't worry,

01:14:18.140 that's the solution.

01:14:19.020 Once you've kind of

01:14:19.600 done your career thing

01:14:20.460 and you're ready

01:14:20.840 to settle down.

01:14:22.000 But the structures of society

01:14:23.040 kind of pushes in that way,

01:14:24.160 don't they?

01:14:24.440 You're kind of,

01:14:25.240 by the time you're

01:14:26.340 hitting your 30s,

01:14:27.400 you spent most of your 20s

01:14:29.260 in education

01:14:30.580 and then, you know,

01:14:31.720 going through the grad programmes

01:14:32.980 and the internships

01:14:33.520 and the early career.

01:14:35.140 There isn't really,

01:14:36.760 in the structures

01:14:37.260 of society right now,

01:14:38.300 we're not encouraged

01:14:39.100 to settle down earlier

01:14:40.500 and to think about,

01:14:41.500 can we push some

01:14:42.220 of that stuff later

01:14:43.140 because we can do it later

01:14:44.200 and we can have,

01:14:45.320 it's more easier

01:14:45.860 to have kids earlier.

01:14:46.840 I think, yeah,

01:14:48.040 that's another thing

01:14:48.580 we have to be talking about

01:14:49.560 and being more honest about

01:14:50.660 and the statistics

01:14:51.780 because even after 30,

01:14:52.800 it starts to fall

01:14:53.380 and then 35 and then 40

01:14:54.380 and trails off.

01:14:56.340 And on that note,

01:14:57.600 before we head to Substack

01:14:59.120 where our audience

01:14:59.700 get to ask you their questions,

01:15:00.860 what is the one thing

01:15:01.500 we're not talking about

01:15:02.480 that we should be?

01:15:03.180 I've prepared for this

01:15:03.820 for five years.

01:15:06.120 That is a joke,

01:15:07.320 but it's not a joke.

01:15:07.980 I think,

01:15:10.600 I hear a lot right now

01:15:12.320 on the right

01:15:12.860 about the need

01:15:14.940 for restoring a Christian West,

01:15:17.340 for restoring a Christian society,

01:15:18.440 especially in the context

01:15:19.120 of immigration

01:15:19.620 is often kind of now

01:15:20.520 used as a buzzword

01:15:21.780 of we want to have

01:15:23.140 a Christian nation.

01:15:24.700 What I think we're not

01:15:25.460 talking about within that

01:15:26.500 is that a Christian nation

01:15:28.460 is a nation of Christian people

01:15:29.920 and a lot of us,

01:15:32.040 I don't know

01:15:32.600 if there's a reckoning yet

01:15:33.540 of what that means personally

01:15:35.140 in our personal lives.

01:15:37.080 I think, for example,

01:15:38.580 the Tory party,

01:15:39.540 we saw it kind of fall apart

01:15:40.980 from being a party

01:15:42.440 that valued conservatism,

01:15:44.120 but then when it left

01:15:45.380 that moorings of why,

01:15:47.000 of that kind of basis

01:15:47.820 of faith and Christianity,

01:15:49.740 it started promoting

01:15:50.760 all sorts of liberal ideals

01:15:52.240 and then eventually

01:15:53.040 just disintegrated

01:15:53.900 as something that doesn't

01:15:54.560 promote conservatism at all

01:15:55.660 over the last 14 years.

01:15:56.520 They were the ones

01:15:56.920 that brought in the prayer bans

01:15:58.020 and pills by post-abortion

01:15:59.740 and various other measures

01:16:01.220 that were very anti-Christian.

01:16:03.760 And so I think

01:16:04.520 we have to recognize

01:16:05.380 that on the right

01:16:07.400 in the UK,

01:16:08.500 if we are trying

01:16:09.520 to put in conservatism

01:16:10.880 without Christ,

01:16:12.060 that is also just going

01:16:12.900 to be baseless

01:16:13.400 and more or less

01:16:14.100 and drift at some point.

01:16:15.640 I think we have to get back

01:16:16.420 to those Christian ideals

01:16:17.340 and apply them

01:16:18.820 in our personal lives first.

01:16:20.140 We can't be out there

01:16:21.120 promoting marriage

01:16:21.760 and family and babies

01:16:23.160 and then have

01:16:23.820 our right-wing politicians

01:16:24.820 really sleeping around

01:16:26.080 being unfaithful

01:16:26.680 to their partner

01:16:27.160 and not promoting this

01:16:28.500 in their personal lives.

01:16:29.480 So I think we have

01:16:30.260 a lot of work to do.

01:16:31.060 I think that's why

01:16:34.060 we're failing.

01:16:34.720 We know some of these people.

01:16:36.320 Good luck with that.

01:16:37.520 But I think that's

01:16:38.120 why we're failing.

01:16:38.960 I think unless we adopt

01:16:40.200 this properly wholesale,

01:16:42.420 we're not going to be changed.

01:16:43.260 This is a thing

01:16:44.220 not to get it

01:16:45.040 not too far into,

01:16:46.140 but there are a lot of

01:16:46.900 supposedly Christian

01:16:51.700 or moral people

01:16:52.580 who are not very Christian

01:16:53.600 or moral

01:16:53.960 and a lot of non-Christian

01:16:55.100 people who actually

01:16:55.960 do stick with those values.

01:16:57.620 The values are important.

01:16:58.740 That's what really matters.

01:16:59.860 Then we get into

01:17:01.360 a whole argument

01:17:01.940 about where do you get them

01:17:02.880 blah, blah, blah.

01:17:03.440 Let's say that for another time.

01:17:05.060 Head on over to Substack

01:17:05.940 where we continue

01:17:06.560 the conversation.

01:17:09.180 What is your opinion

01:17:10.220 on how society

01:17:11.300 should deal with

01:17:11.920 cancel culture

01:17:12.620 as a consequence

01:17:13.680 of distasteful

01:17:15.280 but free speech?

01:17:16.720 How can we support

01:17:17.560 families better

01:17:18.260 so an unexpected pregnancy

01:17:19.900 is not seen

01:17:20.740 as the end of the world?

01:17:29.860 What are we do?

01:17:39.160 What are we do?

01:17:53.640 How can we approach

TRIGGERnometry - August 31, 2025

They Arrested And Strip Searched Me... - Lois McLatchie Miller

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