TRIGGERnometry - September 25, 2024


"They're Lying About Your History" - Rafe Heydel-Mankoo


Episode Stats

Length

57 minutes

Words per Minute

184.10986

Word Count

10,556

Sentence Count

124

Misogynist Sentences

5

Hate Speech Sentences

38


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode, Francis and Raph talk to the brilliant historian, academic and author, Prof. Rafe Steiner, about some of the most common myths and misconceptions about the history of the UK and its history in general.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.840 The way that British people now talk about their own history,
00:00:04.860 for anyone who's actually educated about history,
00:00:06.920 just seems completely absurd.
00:00:08.640 Why is it that it's only the British who are the bad guys?
00:00:11.800 I don't think there was ever before a case of a country
00:00:15.040 deliberately making itself poorer
00:00:17.300 in order to advance a moral objective for the greater good.
00:00:21.700 We've had decades of the gradual erosion of belief in nation,
00:00:26.460 belief in the family, belief in our history.
00:00:29.140 Not only the genius of the West,
00:00:31.800 but actually in the exceptionalism of the West.
00:00:35.460 Nothing has done more to lift the world out of poverty
00:00:37.820 than colonialism and capitalism.
00:00:40.400 And that's something you can't say today,
00:00:41.900 but that's the reality.
00:00:44.820 Rafe, so great to have you on.
00:00:46.920 We always love having historians on.
00:00:49.080 And with you in particular,
00:00:50.060 the thing we really wanted to discuss is
00:00:51.920 Francis and I both have always been interested in history
00:00:54.420 and we both have a slightly outsider perspective,
00:00:56.640 having lived in other countries.
00:00:57.860 And so the way that British people now talk about their own history,
00:01:03.080 for anyone who's actually educated about history,
00:01:05.180 just seems completely absurd.
00:01:07.140 And we were hoping that you could go through some of these myths
00:01:10.240 that we're all now being asked to believe with us
00:01:12.320 and just debunk them for us.
00:01:14.260 And what would you say are the things
00:01:15.560 that we're being lied to about the most?
00:01:17.960 Everything.
00:01:18.320 I mean, unfortunately, we're in a position now
00:01:21.100 where we've seen a complete capture
00:01:24.140 of our educational establishment by the left.
00:01:27.220 You know, I was just reading a report just a few days ago
00:01:29.500 where in American academics,
00:01:32.020 only 4% of historians are Republican voters,
00:01:35.700 if you can imagine that.
00:01:37.540 You know, I think only 1% of Harvard University now
00:01:41.280 have right-leaning academic professors in the humanities.
00:01:44.120 So we've seen something we've never seen before.
00:01:46.740 And as a result of that,
00:01:48.100 we've got, you know,
00:01:49.000 one or two generations of students
00:01:51.460 who have been raised with left-leaning views on history.
00:01:56.060 What does that mean, Raph?
00:01:56.880 What's a left...
00:01:57.440 Because, see, this is a thing I don't like
00:01:59.220 that we got into the politics of it straight away
00:02:01.660 because, to me,
00:02:02.900 I understand history isn't an objective science.
00:02:05.820 But I don't really care
00:02:07.560 if there's a lot of Republicans or Democrats.
00:02:10.400 I just want people teaching history,
00:02:13.140 broadly speaking, as it happened,
00:02:14.840 and then they can have their own view on it.
00:02:16.340 But we don't seem to have that.
00:02:17.620 It's almost impossible
00:02:18.480 to have pure objectivity in history.
00:02:20.600 The best you can hope for is a balance.
00:02:22.560 Okay.
00:02:23.000 And that's the point here.
00:02:24.300 No one wants to have the spectrum swing either way.
00:02:27.640 But when I was at university,
00:02:28.720 there was about a 2-1 balance.
00:02:30.560 There were two liberals
00:02:31.280 for every conservative in history.
00:02:32.700 So you knew where your historian professors stood
00:02:36.300 and you could basically evaluate on your own grounds.
00:02:39.680 But now there's no gauge.
00:02:40.800 There's no one else to go to
00:02:41.760 to get an alternative view on history.
00:02:44.420 And I think it's fundamentally important
00:02:46.120 because history is one of the key elements
00:02:49.240 that grounds a society and a people to place.
00:02:52.620 It fosters that sense of identity
00:02:54.440 and of belonging and of pride.
00:02:57.420 And if you undermine that,
00:02:59.020 then essentially you sever that connection
00:03:00.960 between people and place.
00:03:03.120 And at a time like today,
00:03:04.860 when you have globalization
00:03:05.880 and you have the threats that we see around us,
00:03:08.520 I think it's fundamentally important
00:03:10.060 that people have a notion
00:03:11.660 of who they are as a people.
00:03:13.140 And also that they are equipped
00:03:14.700 with the knowledge to be able
00:03:16.280 to identify the purveyors of false history,
00:03:19.780 to identify history
00:03:21.440 that they can quite clearly see
00:03:22.840 is either fake or biased.
00:03:25.020 And I'm afraid because of our education system
00:03:27.500 where children now leave school
00:03:28.940 at the age of 14,
00:03:29.980 I mean,
00:03:30.780 where they stopped learning history
00:03:31.820 at the age of 14,
00:03:32.900 they simply don't have the necessary skills
00:03:35.580 or knowledge
00:03:36.280 to be able to identify bad history.
00:03:40.460 And that's why we're seeing
00:03:41.180 the perpetuation of all these myths.
00:03:43.120 And so it's very easy
00:03:44.240 to hoodwink people
00:03:45.860 about, say,
00:03:46.620 the evils of Winston Churchill
00:03:48.120 or Britain's role in slavery
00:03:50.100 or the exclusively bad side of colonialism
00:03:53.640 if people simply don't have
00:03:55.360 the knowledge and skill set
00:03:56.540 to be able to rationally evaluate
00:03:58.980 what they're being told.
00:04:00.560 So if by some miracle
00:04:01.980 one of these 14-year-olds
00:04:03.700 is tuned in
00:04:04.560 and they're watching
00:04:05.320 or listening to this,
00:04:07.080 what can you give them
00:04:08.660 as a kind of methodology
00:04:10.920 to look at Britain
00:04:12.540 and the West more broadly
00:04:14.120 and its history
00:04:14.880 and go,
00:04:15.880 this is how I put these things
00:04:17.060 into perspective,
00:04:17.960 this is how I balance things up?
00:04:19.380 What should be the core things
00:04:21.180 that people should know?
00:04:22.840 Well,
00:04:23.500 if they are very, very scholarly,
00:04:25.480 they should read
00:04:26.040 the primary sources.
00:04:27.300 I mean,
00:04:27.400 that's the best way.
00:04:28.200 If you want to have
00:04:28.880 an unbiased,
00:04:30.140 unvarnished approach to history,
00:04:32.160 always go back
00:04:32.960 and read original sources
00:04:34.180 or read memoirs,
00:04:36.000 read autobiographies
00:04:36.920 if it comes to that
00:04:37.700 about people.
00:04:39.000 But read as much as you can
00:04:40.720 but also try as much as you can
00:04:42.880 to search out on the internet
00:04:44.900 things like the History Reclaimed website.
00:04:47.960 I know you've had Andrew Roberts
00:04:49.100 on your show recently
00:04:50.140 but Nigel Bigger is on there,
00:04:52.040 Niall Ferguson.
00:04:53.680 Not just to exclusively read that
00:04:55.440 but read that in the context
00:04:57.040 of what else you've read
00:04:58.060 and what else you've been taught
00:04:59.140 on the left
00:04:59.580 and I think only by viewing
00:05:00.820 both sides of the argument
00:05:02.160 can you hope to come somewhere
00:05:03.520 near to the accurate record.
00:05:05.120 Rafe,
00:05:07.000 so we've spoken
00:05:08.620 and we've touched
00:05:09.680 around the subject
00:05:10.780 of myths
00:05:12.040 and whatever else.
00:05:13.080 What are these myths
00:05:14.340 that we are being told
00:05:15.460 and that we've been asked
00:05:16.660 to swallow
00:05:17.140 as a population?
00:05:18.960 Well,
00:05:19.260 myths is a good term to use
00:05:20.720 because all societies
00:05:21.900 have their foundational myths,
00:05:23.640 right?
00:05:24.000 So,
00:05:24.400 for example,
00:05:25.480 you know,
00:05:25.680 we're in London,
00:05:26.420 well,
00:05:26.580 I live in London
00:05:27.280 that was supposedly founded
00:05:28.740 by King Ludd
00:05:30.540 after defeating the giants
00:05:32.320 of Gog and Magog
00:05:33.360 and,
00:05:33.700 you know,
00:05:33.820 that linked us
00:05:34.460 to the classical world
00:05:35.440 when you had the idea
00:05:36.200 of Brutus of Troy
00:05:37.080 coming over.
00:05:38.080 So those myths,
00:05:38.800 you know,
00:05:39.080 provide an important
00:05:40.520 sort of narrative
00:05:41.380 and a fantasy story
00:05:42.860 that gives a romance
00:05:44.720 to history.
00:05:45.640 What we're seeing now
00:05:46.360 are new myths
00:05:46.960 being created.
00:05:47.980 So you have Sadiq Khan
00:05:49.100 saying that London
00:05:50.360 was built by immigrants,
00:05:51.920 right?
00:05:52.160 Complete nonsense
00:05:53.160 given the fact
00:05:53.840 that immigrants
00:05:54.380 only started to arrive here
00:05:55.500 in the post-war period
00:05:57.080 apart from the Irish,
00:05:58.400 but the Irish are part
00:05:59.400 of the British Isles.
00:06:01.320 You had,
00:06:01.960 you know,
00:06:02.580 Rishi Sunak
00:06:03.720 producing a 50-pence coin
00:06:05.220 saying diversity
00:06:06.040 built Britain.
00:06:07.000 Again,
00:06:07.400 completely factually
00:06:08.220 inaccurate
00:06:08.680 to state that.
00:06:10.100 You've got now
00:06:10.800 BBC,
00:06:11.860 for example,
00:06:13.140 putting out this book
00:06:14.120 Horrible Histories
00:06:15.020 that claims that
00:06:16.100 black sub-Saharan Africans
00:06:18.280 have been present
00:06:19.060 in Britain
00:06:19.480 for a millennia.
00:06:20.740 You have
00:06:21.260 The Guardian
00:06:22.060 claiming that
00:06:22.840 Roman emperors
00:06:23.520 were black.
00:06:24.120 You know,
00:06:24.200 these are the myths
00:06:24.820 that we're being told
00:06:25.660 that Nelson
00:06:26.480 was in favour
00:06:27.980 of slavery
00:06:28.620 on the basis
00:06:29.480 of one single letter
00:06:30.700 which has now proved
00:06:31.680 to have been edited
00:06:32.960 after his death.
00:06:34.680 And, of course,
00:06:35.520 you know,
00:06:35.820 you have the war
00:06:37.400 and the attack
00:06:38.080 on essentially
00:06:38.820 every single hero
00:06:40.780 that symbolises,
00:06:41.820 in my view,
00:06:42.520 the great maverick spirit
00:06:43.800 of the British.
00:06:44.620 So, you know,
00:06:44.980 be it Nelson,
00:06:45.700 be it Drake,
00:06:46.360 be it Churchill.
00:06:47.460 These are the myths.
00:06:48.440 The myths that we have
00:06:49.540 in our society today
00:06:51.080 are targeted merely
00:06:52.500 at, really,
00:06:53.520 at undermining,
00:06:55.240 I think,
00:06:55.780 the foundations
00:06:56.920 for Britain's pride
00:06:58.620 in itself,
00:06:59.300 in its accomplishments
00:07:00.080 and its achievements
00:07:01.460 and in the heroism
00:07:02.560 of its figures.
00:07:03.780 But we also have
00:07:04.920 to acknowledge,
00:07:05.640 for instance,
00:07:06.160 everyone can take a drink,
00:07:07.000 my mother's Venezuelan,
00:07:08.540 and the way that people
00:07:09.600 in South America
00:07:10.440 look at Francis Drake
00:07:11.780 isn't particularly favourable.
00:07:14.660 So there's two signs
00:07:15.820 if we're being fair.
00:07:16.700 With Drake,
00:07:17.520 there certainly is,
00:07:18.340 but there's the idea
00:07:19.060 that there are
00:07:19.540 no redeeming qualities.
00:07:20.900 You know,
00:07:21.000 you can call it
00:07:23.280 generational chauvinism,
00:07:25.740 the idea that we're going
00:07:26.940 to judge everyone
00:07:27.680 in the past
00:07:28.280 by today's standards.
00:07:29.640 Now,
00:07:29.960 some people come out
00:07:30.740 better of that.
00:07:31.240 Drake is not one
00:07:31.860 of the most enlightened
00:07:33.160 figures,
00:07:33.680 even by his own time.
00:07:34.740 But there's certainly
00:07:35.420 a lot to admire
00:07:36.100 about the man,
00:07:36.740 especially when you
00:07:37.240 consider him
00:07:37.740 within the context
00:07:38.520 of his time.
00:07:39.680 And also,
00:07:40.700 as well,
00:07:40.960 the thing that I find
00:07:41.860 particularly frustrating,
00:07:43.080 Rafe,
00:07:43.320 is Venezuelan mother,
00:07:46.020 and we talk about
00:07:46.840 colonialism,
00:07:47.560 and it seems to be
00:07:48.260 the British
00:07:48.800 are the only ones
00:07:49.980 who did this.
00:07:52.880 They were the only ones
00:07:54.040 who participated
00:07:54.960 in the slave trade.
00:07:56.520 And you look at
00:07:57.080 the Spanish,
00:07:57.700 what the Spanish
00:07:58.280 did in South America,
00:07:59.460 which is brutal,
00:08:01.020 awful,
00:08:01.320 and horrific.
00:08:01.740 And I studied it,
00:08:03.220 and I was taught it
00:08:04.320 because of my family
00:08:05.320 and whatever else.
00:08:06.180 And then you look
00:08:06.760 at the trans-Saharan
00:08:08.560 slave trade,
00:08:09.660 you know,
00:08:09.840 the Ottoman Empire.
00:08:11.280 Why is it that it's
00:08:12.520 only the British
00:08:13.380 who are the bad guys?
00:08:14.660 Yeah,
00:08:14.920 well,
00:08:15.120 that's why we know
00:08:16.180 that this actually
00:08:16.840 isn't about colonialism.
00:08:18.480 This isn't about slavery.
00:08:19.840 If it was,
00:08:20.740 we would have
00:08:21.300 exactly the points
00:08:22.040 that you're being made,
00:08:23.260 made by the activists
00:08:24.820 who are so keen
00:08:25.620 to undermine
00:08:26.200 Britain's role
00:08:27.200 in history.
00:08:28.380 And I think that's why
00:08:29.280 what we're seeing here
00:08:29.960 is a much larger attack
00:08:31.180 on Britain
00:08:31.820 and America as well.
00:08:33.940 Because, of course,
00:08:34.740 slavery is universal,
00:08:36.160 right?
00:08:36.400 And slavery is millennia,
00:08:38.200 thousands of years old,
00:08:40.440 as is slavery.
00:08:42.400 And, of course,
00:08:43.000 if you look around the world,
00:08:44.100 I think the British Empire,
00:08:45.260 of course,
00:08:45.500 is far from perfect,
00:08:46.580 you know?
00:08:46.740 And I always have to sort of
00:08:47.700 make one of those
00:08:48.540 qualifying statements,
00:08:49.480 much like when you have
00:08:50.180 Microsoft saying,
00:08:51.280 I acknowledge that I'm
00:08:52.100 standing on the land
00:08:52.880 of the Iroquois,
00:08:53.800 I have to say,
00:08:54.780 I acknowledge that
00:08:55.580 the British Empire
00:08:56.220 did bad things,
00:08:57.340 right?
00:08:57.460 No one is denying that.
00:08:58.500 But we all know that
00:08:59.320 because we hear that
00:09:00.120 every single day.
00:09:01.200 So we don't need
00:09:01.840 to go on about that.
00:09:02.940 But the fact is,
00:09:03.680 no empire in history
00:09:04.760 has been as benign
00:09:05.960 as the British Empire.
00:09:07.320 What's remarkable
00:09:07.940 is that Britain was able
00:09:09.020 to maintain its empire
00:09:10.480 with the most minimal
00:09:11.960 military presence
00:09:13.260 in those countries.
00:09:14.220 And it did that
00:09:14.860 through various means,
00:09:16.180 you know,
00:09:16.360 and it allied with
00:09:17.420 the Indian princes
00:09:18.140 in India, for example.
00:09:19.660 But if you, you know,
00:09:20.420 just compare it
00:09:21.120 to what the Spanish did,
00:09:22.280 what the Portuguese did,
00:09:23.520 certainly what the Belgians
00:09:24.600 and the Germans did,
00:09:25.880 the British Empire
00:09:26.540 comes off hugely well.
00:09:28.220 And you just have to
00:09:29.120 contrast, for example,
00:09:30.180 what happened
00:09:30.820 when the Soviet Union
00:09:32.040 collapsed, you know,
00:09:32.820 because the Soviet Union
00:09:33.660 was an empire.
00:09:34.900 Well, Poland and Hungary
00:09:36.060 and Romania and Bulgaria
00:09:38.220 fed as fast as they could,
00:09:40.180 you know, to the West,
00:09:41.240 trying to get into the EU,
00:09:42.560 trying to get into NATO
00:09:43.560 and so forth.
00:09:44.500 Contrast that
00:09:45.140 with the British Empire.
00:09:46.700 When the British Empire
00:09:47.540 voluntarily gave independence
00:09:49.100 to its colonies,
00:09:50.900 they decided to come back
00:09:52.140 together again
00:09:52.780 in voluntary association
00:09:54.040 in the shape
00:09:54.580 of the Commonwealth.
00:09:55.580 That's not something
00:09:56.440 you do when you are
00:09:57.440 under the yoke
00:09:58.160 of an evil empire.
00:09:59.760 And people like,
00:10:00.660 you know, Jinnah,
00:10:01.480 the first leader of Pakistan,
00:10:03.320 Nehru,
00:10:03.660 the first leader of India,
00:10:05.060 they didn't want to overthrow
00:10:06.260 the imperial yoke.
00:10:07.380 They didn't want to get rid
00:10:08.340 of the institutions
00:10:09.180 and the structures
00:10:10.020 that the British Empire
00:10:10.840 had brought into those countries.
00:10:12.440 They simply wanted
00:10:13.140 to run them themselves.
00:10:14.540 But they respected
00:10:15.720 the inheritance
00:10:16.580 that they had.
00:10:17.620 And wherever you go
00:10:18.420 in the world,
00:10:19.040 in whatever region
00:10:19.760 of the world you go to,
00:10:21.080 those countries
00:10:21.880 that were former
00:10:22.620 British colonies
00:10:23.420 are the ones
00:10:24.220 that are most likely
00:10:25.040 to be wealthy,
00:10:26.680 stable,
00:10:27.440 and democratic.
00:10:28.520 And that's a great asset.
00:10:29.720 And in fact,
00:10:30.220 it's the legacy
00:10:30.900 of the British Empire
00:10:31.980 that has enabled
00:10:33.100 many of these colonies
00:10:34.080 to become global players.
00:10:36.080 You know,
00:10:36.300 the English language,
00:10:37.720 the common law,
00:10:39.500 the infrastructure
00:10:40.480 of the civil service,
00:10:42.200 of the military,
00:10:43.020 of the police,
00:10:44.280 you know,
00:10:44.460 the hospitals
00:10:44.980 that were built there
00:10:45.800 by the British.
00:10:46.760 There are so many
00:10:47.480 good things
00:10:48.240 that were done
00:10:48.700 by colonialism.
00:10:49.420 I often say
00:10:50.200 that colonialism
00:10:50.840 and capitalism,
00:10:51.980 for all of their ills,
00:10:53.200 nothing has done more
00:10:54.160 to lift the world
00:10:54.880 out of poverty
00:10:55.560 than colonialism
00:10:56.640 and capitalism.
00:10:58.140 Now,
00:10:58.260 that's something
00:10:58.600 you can't say today,
00:10:59.640 but that's the reality.
00:11:01.100 And why can't you say it?
00:11:04.140 Why can't we have
00:11:05.560 this very sane,
00:11:07.280 sensible,
00:11:08.000 rational discussion
00:11:08.960 where we go,
00:11:09.640 look,
00:11:10.100 as you've pointed out yourself,
00:11:12.160 there are goods
00:11:12.820 and there are bads,
00:11:14.380 there are positives
00:11:15.080 and there are negatives.
00:11:16.620 And that is how life works.
00:11:19.180 Because I think
00:11:20.180 we need to understand
00:11:21.200 that we are now living
00:11:22.200 in a post-revolutionary society.
00:11:25.060 This is what I keep
00:11:25.720 trying to explain to people.
00:11:27.360 The revolution
00:11:27.880 has already happened.
00:11:29.080 We are now
00:11:29.820 the underground resistance.
00:11:31.600 That's why we're able
00:11:32.340 to have these conversations
00:11:33.280 only on places
00:11:34.500 like YouTube
00:11:35.180 and so forth,
00:11:35.920 right?
00:11:36.060 We have become
00:11:36.880 the new revolutionaries,
00:11:39.220 if I can put it that way.
00:11:40.320 You don't need to fly
00:11:41.420 red flags from rooftops
00:11:43.140 to have a revolution
00:11:44.040 and have mobs in the streets.
00:11:45.400 We've had this long march
00:11:46.580 through the institutions.
00:11:48.420 The buildings still stand there,
00:11:51.080 but the people who inhabit them
00:11:52.400 are cuckoos in the nest
00:11:53.480 who bear no comparison
00:11:55.560 or connection
00:11:56.260 to the generations
00:11:57.160 who built those institutions.
00:11:59.160 And so we have this inverted
00:12:01.000 or subverted ideology now
00:12:02.860 which views any presence
00:12:05.320 of Britain around the world
00:12:06.540 as being necessarily evil
00:12:08.120 because it advances
00:12:09.140 what I would regard
00:12:10.120 as a Marxist agenda.
00:12:13.540 I call woke American Marxism
00:12:15.260 and Britain has succumbed
00:12:17.080 to this American
00:12:18.140 woke mind virus
00:12:20.100 which I think
00:12:20.720 is a virus transmitted
00:12:21.660 by the English language
00:12:22.720 which is why it's more present
00:12:23.820 in the Anglosphere
00:12:24.740 and in Scandinavia
00:12:26.220 which of course
00:12:26.880 they're all bilingual there
00:12:28.200 and in the Netherlands.
00:12:29.460 But that's why
00:12:29.940 we can't have this discussion.
00:12:32.100 But I think it's also important
00:12:33.280 to, you know,
00:12:34.060 I want to expand a bit more
00:12:35.420 on this whole role
00:12:36.440 of the British Empire globally.
00:12:37.880 I mean, you know,
00:12:39.040 slavery was also universal.
00:12:42.020 What was unique
00:12:43.020 to Britain
00:12:43.680 and Western Europe
00:12:45.140 was the Evangelical Christian movement
00:12:47.520 that engulfed
00:12:49.100 the British Empire
00:12:49.940 and the British Empire
00:12:51.040 spent the second half
00:12:52.360 of its history
00:12:53.180 atoning for the sins
00:12:54.800 of the first half.
00:12:56.040 and it expended a sum equivalent
00:12:58.460 to 2% of GDP
00:13:00.360 on the West Africa squadron
00:13:02.580 which was the Royal Navy force
00:13:04.320 trying to enforce an end
00:13:05.540 to the global slave trade
00:13:06.680 on the Atlantic.
00:13:07.760 Now, I don't think
00:13:08.440 there was ever before
00:13:09.760 a case of a country
00:13:11.200 deliberately making itself poorer
00:13:13.460 in order to advance
00:13:15.200 a moral objective
00:13:16.120 for the greater good.
00:13:17.600 And I think that's something
00:13:18.540 that everybody in Britain
00:13:19.720 should be hugely
00:13:20.780 and supremely proud of.
00:13:22.040 So, just finally
00:13:23.980 because if you say the words
00:13:26.120 I remember
00:13:26.880 so my grandfather
00:13:27.780 when he was a doctor
00:13:29.080 and when he retired
00:13:29.640 he became a historian
00:13:30.500 and I remember my grandfather
00:13:32.480 Venezuelan grandfather
00:13:33.860 teaching me about
00:13:34.880 William Wilberforce
00:13:35.900 and we went to a place
00:13:37.820 at one of his houses
00:13:38.760 that he lived in
00:13:39.620 Wimbledon
00:13:40.880 because there was a blue plaque
00:13:41.960 and my grandfather
00:13:42.660 wrote a book about the blue plaques
00:13:43.980 and he explained to me
00:13:45.100 all about William Wilberforce
00:13:46.220 what he did
00:13:46.920 why he wanted to achieve
00:13:48.860 what he wanted to achieve
00:13:49.840 to abolish slavery.
00:13:50.820 But I guarantee you
00:13:52.620 that if you went down the road
00:13:54.160 where we are
00:13:55.240 or in central London
00:13:56.340 or even if you went
00:13:57.740 to some of these
00:13:58.640 hallowed institutions
00:13:59.600 these universities
00:14:00.460 and you asked the kids
00:14:01.840 who's William Wilberforce
00:14:03.580 I doubt they would be able
00:14:04.580 to tell you who he is.
00:14:06.060 Well I know that for a fact
00:14:07.040 because I've encountered
00:14:07.940 these students
00:14:08.720 and I've spoken
00:14:09.680 in university settings
00:14:10.800 and what I tried to do
00:14:12.180 is you know
00:14:12.640 I tried simply to present facts
00:14:14.680 when I give a public speech
00:14:15.960 or a debate
00:14:16.460 because I think
00:14:17.100 too often
00:14:17.860 people get polarised
00:14:19.180 with too much opinion
00:14:20.120 on hot air
00:14:20.920 and I always think
00:14:21.620 the best way
00:14:22.440 to win an argument
00:14:23.500 or to present
00:14:24.020 is to simply present
00:14:24.780 the cold facts
00:14:25.640 which hopefully
00:14:26.560 you can't debate
00:14:27.580 but I found very
00:14:28.900 what I found very frustrating
00:14:30.320 is nowadays
00:14:31.360 I mean
00:14:31.740 I did a debate
00:14:33.040 at a university recently
00:14:34.000 where I hadn't been
00:14:34.520 for seven years
00:14:35.380 and in the space
00:14:36.260 of that seven years
00:14:36.980 I could see
00:14:37.420 a noticeable decline
00:14:38.660 in the tolerance
00:14:40.920 and attention spans
00:14:42.140 of the students
00:14:42.800 I was speaking to
00:14:43.720 and literally
00:14:44.760 you know
00:14:45.060 we hear about
00:14:45.840 jaw-dropping moments
00:14:46.760 so I literally
00:14:47.360 saw people's jaws
00:14:48.360 dropping open
00:14:49.340 when I told them
00:14:50.620 that you know
00:14:52.280 there were more Africans
00:14:53.360 held in bondage
00:14:54.460 in Africa
00:14:55.100 than were ever transported
00:14:56.320 over the Atlantic
00:14:57.180 they simply couldn't
00:14:58.040 comprehend that
00:14:58.780 when I explained to them
00:15:00.080 that no Europeans
00:15:01.360 enslaved Africans
00:15:02.620 Africans were enslaved
00:15:04.040 by other Africans
00:15:05.220 Europeans simply
00:15:06.640 moored their ships
00:15:07.540 off of the coast
00:15:08.280 of West Africa
00:15:09.080 and went to the slave markets
00:15:10.680 on the coast
00:15:11.380 that's where they came from
00:15:12.360 you know
00:15:13.000 if I explained to them
00:15:14.200 that the Islamic slave trade
00:15:15.480 carried on for centuries
00:15:17.560 before the arrival
00:15:18.600 of the British
00:15:19.080 and the French
00:15:19.780 and it carried on
00:15:20.560 well into the 20th century
00:15:22.000 with the British
00:15:22.600 and French
00:15:22.980 trying to expunge it
00:15:24.620 and the biggest opponents
00:15:26.000 one of the biggest opponents
00:15:27.000 of the end to slavery
00:15:28.460 were Africans themselves
00:15:29.860 who the British
00:15:30.560 had to try to force
00:15:31.500 to abolish slavery
00:15:32.940 and indeed
00:15:33.920 the existence of slavery today
00:15:36.080 you know
00:15:36.480 where the International
00:15:37.200 Labour Organization
00:15:38.060 says that seven
00:15:39.020 in every 1,000 Africans
00:15:40.540 today is a slave
00:15:41.660 that's 10 million people
00:15:43.600 CNN reported
00:15:45.080 hundreds of slaves
00:15:46.520 are sold every week
00:15:47.600 in Libya
00:15:48.080 and the kids
00:15:50.440 simply couldn't
00:15:51.320 accept this
00:15:52.120 and it's because
00:15:52.920 of the fact
00:15:53.760 that they're being taught
00:15:54.820 a very very narrow
00:15:56.140 and biased view
00:15:57.100 of history
00:15:57.620 and I would have
00:15:58.660 much more time
00:15:59.560 for these academics
00:16:00.660 who are spouting
00:16:01.480 this nonsense
00:16:02.200 about Britain
00:16:02.840 and the slave trade
00:16:03.740 if they were equally vocal
00:16:05.440 about what I've just said
00:16:06.900 if they were actually
00:16:07.960 protesting outside
00:16:09.080 you know
00:16:09.540 high commissions
00:16:10.260 and embassies
00:16:10.960 around the world
00:16:11.700 you know
00:16:12.000 Cameroon has
00:16:12.620 800,000 slaves
00:16:13.920 Niger
00:16:14.580 Nigeria
00:16:15.840 Mali
00:16:16.560 Mozambique
00:16:17.660 and yet
00:16:18.240 they're silent
00:16:18.780 about that
00:16:19.340 and you would have
00:16:19.960 thought
00:16:20.260 that the lives
00:16:21.660 and the plights
00:16:22.360 of people alive today
00:16:23.460 is far more important
00:16:24.640 than worrying
00:16:25.340 about the historic
00:16:26.980 slavery
00:16:27.480 which happened
00:16:28.080 eight generations ago
00:16:29.560 Rafe
00:16:30.540 one of the questions
00:16:31.300 I want to ask you
00:16:31.960 because you're talking
00:16:33.120 about something
00:16:33.840 obviously we've heard
00:16:34.460 lots of people say
00:16:35.240 which is that
00:16:36.120 there's been a takeover
00:16:38.100 of the institutions
00:16:38.900 and I guess the question is
00:16:40.700 why is there an appetite
00:16:42.380 for that particular message
00:16:43.900 because as a historian
00:16:45.920 I'm sure you appreciate
00:16:47.080 that certain ideas
00:16:48.540 come about
00:16:49.280 for there are reasons
00:16:51.040 that certain ideas
00:16:51.960 take over
00:16:52.560 it's not just
00:16:53.120 you couldn't just
00:16:54.080 take over an institution
00:16:55.660 and spread a completely
00:16:56.800 alien ideology
00:16:57.760 that would instantly
00:16:58.440 be accepted
00:16:59.120 there must be something
00:17:00.420 about the current moment
00:17:02.440 whether it's technology
00:17:03.640 whether it's our prosperity
00:17:05.080 whether it's a lack
00:17:06.200 of threat
00:17:06.620 whatever it is
00:17:07.840 that's causing people
00:17:09.300 to be receptive
00:17:11.020 to the message
00:17:11.820 of self-hatred
00:17:13.540 or whatever
00:17:13.940 however you might
00:17:14.740 describe it
00:17:15.440 well it certainly
00:17:16.860 it certainly is
00:17:17.500 all of those things
00:17:18.200 but I actually think
00:17:19.040 that there has been
00:17:19.880 a long march
00:17:21.040 which has been decades
00:17:22.160 in the making
00:17:22.920 and the whole idea
00:17:24.360 behind the long march
00:17:25.400 for the institutions
00:17:26.360 was essentially
00:17:27.340 a realization
00:17:28.040 that Western Europe
00:17:29.820 and America
00:17:30.540 weren't civilizations
00:17:32.180 that were going to
00:17:33.320 overnight
00:17:33.860 become radically
00:17:34.980 left-wing
00:17:35.820 you know
00:17:37.160 you had Antonio Gramsci
00:17:39.340 of course
00:17:39.760 who went to the Soviet Union
00:17:40.820 in the 1920s
00:17:41.980 and he realized
00:17:42.540 that the economic model
00:17:43.600 of communism
00:17:45.720 wasn't going to be
00:17:46.960 a success in the West
00:17:48.060 you know
00:17:48.800 they were expecting
00:17:49.660 the communist revolution
00:17:51.160 to happen
00:17:51.640 in industrialized countries
00:17:52.900 it happened in feudal states
00:17:54.140 like China
00:17:54.760 and Russia
00:17:55.760 and there was
00:17:56.880 a sudden realization
00:17:57.820 that there needed
00:17:58.520 to be another way
00:17:59.460 to do this
00:18:00.100 and that was
00:18:00.580 to very gradually
00:18:01.380 and slightly
00:18:01.980 and slowly
00:18:02.660 push that sort of
00:18:03.640 over the window
00:18:04.380 to change the reality
00:18:06.080 and the perception
00:18:06.640 of reality
00:18:07.340 very gradually
00:18:08.420 over time
00:18:09.280 you know
00:18:09.820 in 1968
00:18:10.520 you had
00:18:11.100 Ruder Deutschka
00:18:12.040 coined this phrase
00:18:12.760 the long march
00:18:13.320 for the institutions
00:18:14.060 and he did that
00:18:14.680 deliberately
00:18:15.100 because at the same time
00:18:16.260 in America
00:18:17.140 you had the new left
00:18:18.700 which were radical
00:18:20.200 extremist leftists
00:18:21.600 who wanted to have
00:18:22.500 an immediate revolution
00:18:23.880 they wanted terrorist
00:18:24.740 activities and so forth
00:18:26.060 to try to create
00:18:27.220 this nirvana
00:18:28.440 this leftist Valhalla
00:18:29.460 and he understood
00:18:31.820 that if you were going
00:18:33.120 to achieve that
00:18:33.880 you needed to do so
00:18:34.960 in a very gradual process
00:18:36.720 almost imperceptibly
00:18:37.780 and I think that's why
00:18:39.140 we've suddenly come
00:18:40.140 to this position
00:18:40.920 you know
00:18:42.860 I call it American Marxism
00:18:45.180 because of course
00:18:45.900 it was a creation
00:18:47.580 of the Frankfurt School
00:18:49.480 Herbert Marcuse
00:18:50.440 and others
00:18:51.060 who came to America
00:18:52.700 after the Second World War
00:18:53.940 and laid the foundations
00:18:55.180 for this
00:18:55.620 to take over
00:18:56.380 the cultural
00:18:58.000 and intellectual
00:18:58.900 means of production
00:18:59.860 if I can put it that way
00:19:00.860 so in essence
00:19:01.740 to take over
00:19:02.400 the institutions
00:19:03.180 of museums
00:19:04.840 galleries
00:19:05.400 and so forth
00:19:06.140 but also
00:19:06.780 of academia
00:19:08.380 and so I think
00:19:09.580 you've seen this pendulum
00:19:10.580 swinging so slightly
00:19:11.640 over the years
00:19:13.620 that now
00:19:14.520 everything is ripe
00:19:15.580 for this
00:19:16.020 for what we're seeing
00:19:16.760 the plan being put
00:19:17.740 into action
00:19:18.380 you know
00:19:18.980 in 1984
00:19:19.920 there was a chap
00:19:21.300 called Besbinov
00:19:22.020 you must know
00:19:23.100 or Yuri Besbinov
00:19:23.900 who came over
00:19:24.500 and talked about
00:19:25.140 the four stages
00:19:25.980 of taking over
00:19:27.080 a society
00:19:27.720 demoralization
00:19:29.040 destabilization
00:19:30.560 creating a crisis
00:19:31.680 and then normalizing
00:19:32.580 the new ideology
00:19:33.460 well we've had
00:19:34.380 this demoralization
00:19:35.760 has been going on
00:19:36.580 for a huge amount
00:19:37.520 of time
00:19:37.980 he said that
00:19:38.960 it takes one generation
00:19:40.140 25 years
00:19:41.140 to demoralize
00:19:41.940 the youth
00:19:43.100 of a country
00:19:43.680 in essence
00:19:44.580 to bombard them
00:19:45.600 with so much
00:19:46.120 untruth
00:19:46.780 that they become
00:19:47.800 it becomes impossible
00:19:49.120 for them
00:19:49.460 to actually
00:19:50.260 discern truth
00:19:51.940 from fiction
00:19:53.100 so you could
00:19:53.660 take them
00:19:54.060 to the gulags
00:19:54.760 in the Soviet Union
00:19:55.600 and despite
00:19:56.780 seeing the clear
00:19:57.580 evidence of their own eyes
00:19:58.520 they wouldn't believe it
00:19:59.520 so I think
00:20:00.520 the reason for
00:20:01.600 the situation
00:20:02.320 that we're in today
00:20:02.880 is because
00:20:03.380 we've had
00:20:04.020 decades
00:20:04.980 of the gradual
00:20:05.960 erosion
00:20:06.580 of belief
00:20:07.300 in nation
00:20:08.000 belief in the family
00:20:09.440 belief in our history
00:20:10.880 and belief
00:20:11.940 in the
00:20:12.380 not only
00:20:13.500 the genius
00:20:14.520 of the West
00:20:15.180 but actually
00:20:15.780 in the
00:20:16.540 exceptionalism
00:20:17.620 of the West
00:20:18.200 and what is
00:20:19.200 the genius
00:20:19.680 of the West
00:20:20.200 what makes
00:20:20.700 the West
00:20:21.200 exceptional
00:20:21.640 in your view
00:20:22.320 well it's fascinating
00:20:24.000 that requires
00:20:24.880 another hour long
00:20:25.660 discussion actually
00:20:26.460 because
00:20:26.860 you know
00:20:27.460 the Western
00:20:28.520 mind is actually
00:20:29.820 different to
00:20:30.680 the non-Western
00:20:31.580 mind
00:20:31.900 the Occidental
00:20:32.820 mind
00:20:33.320 you know
00:20:33.660 on many different
00:20:34.440 levels
00:20:34.700 the genius
00:20:35.220 of the West
00:20:35.740 comes down
00:20:37.240 to the fact
00:20:37.820 that Westerners
00:20:39.680 view the world
00:20:40.580 differently
00:20:41.220 I mean
00:20:41.600 you can
00:20:41.900 you know
00:20:42.220 there's a chap
00:20:42.700 called Joseph Heinrich
00:20:43.580 who's written a book
00:20:44.460 about this
00:20:44.920 the weirdest people
00:20:45.700 in the world
00:20:46.220 weird means
00:20:46.840 Western educated
00:20:48.160 industrial rich
00:20:49.300 and developed
00:20:50.540 and so for example
00:20:52.080 Westerners
00:20:53.240 or weird society
00:20:54.200 people
00:20:54.620 can't
00:20:55.060 have very bad
00:20:55.620 facial recognition
00:20:56.460 because we only
00:20:57.400 use the right hemisphere
00:20:58.460 for facial recognition
00:20:59.420 whereas non-Western cultures
00:21:00.640 use both the left
00:21:01.440 and the right
00:21:02.360 when it comes to memory
00:21:03.740 attention
00:21:04.360 spatial awareness
00:21:06.040 visual reasoning
00:21:08.420 there is a difference
00:21:09.380 between both societies
00:21:11.820 now why is that
00:21:12.660 well he traces this
00:21:13.940 back down to a thousand
00:21:15.020 years ago
00:21:15.660 to when
00:21:16.360 the Western Church
00:21:18.820 later to become
00:21:19.480 the Catholic Church
00:21:20.440 banned
00:21:21.380 cousin marriages
00:21:22.680 because up to that point
00:21:24.040 the whole world
00:21:24.960 had clans
00:21:25.960 and kinship
00:21:27.280 based upon
00:21:27.840 these large
00:21:28.380 extended families
00:21:29.280 where your first
00:21:29.960 second third
00:21:30.480 fourth cousins
00:21:31.220 were all
00:21:32.300 deemed to be
00:21:33.560 equal to brothers
00:21:34.640 and sisters
00:21:35.220 and because of that
00:21:36.560 those clan societies
00:21:37.760 were very much
00:21:38.420 based upon
00:21:39.060 nepotism
00:21:39.700 upon obedience
00:21:40.640 to authority
00:21:41.520 upon conformity
00:21:43.440 what happened
00:21:44.520 in the West
00:21:44.920 once you ban
00:21:45.800 marriage
00:21:46.800 between certain
00:21:47.580 degrees of
00:21:48.060 consanguidity
00:21:48.740 you got the birth
00:21:50.220 of the nuclear family
00:21:51.380 which doesn't exist
00:21:52.480 elsewhere
00:21:52.900 so 75% of the world
00:21:54.420 still has cousin marriages
00:21:55.740 about 90% of the world
00:21:57.580 doesn't have
00:21:58.240 the same notion
00:21:59.500 of the exclusive
00:22:00.200 nuclear family
00:22:01.080 that we have
00:22:01.820 and once you had
00:22:02.960 the nuclear family
00:22:03.840 devoid of its
00:22:04.780 external connections
00:22:05.780 to clanship
00:22:06.800 suddenly they had
00:22:08.000 you got the birth
00:22:09.080 of individuality
00:22:10.340 and innovation
00:22:11.600 because the nuclear family
00:22:12.860 then had to rely
00:22:13.600 on contact
00:22:14.560 with strangers
00:22:15.200 and the discerning
00:22:17.160 feature of the West
00:22:18.280 has been
00:22:18.880 its levels
00:22:19.860 of high social trust
00:22:21.320 and its faith
00:22:22.640 in their fellow neighbours
00:22:24.100 can you trust
00:22:24.860 somebody else
00:22:25.640 will you actually
00:22:26.720 help them
00:22:27.140 in a moment of need
00:22:27.980 and so forth
00:22:28.580 you don't find that
00:22:29.660 in non-Western cultures
00:22:30.800 and this is a long way
00:22:31.900 to answer your question
00:22:32.660 but I think
00:22:33.420 take all the time
00:22:35.400 because this is
00:22:36.120 the best bit
00:22:36.900 this is so fascinating
00:22:37.980 please carry on
00:22:38.780 and so what then
00:22:39.820 happened is
00:22:40.260 you had these
00:22:41.160 individual nuclear families
00:22:43.040 and they then had
00:22:44.000 to rely on others
00:22:45.200 for different types
00:22:46.080 of help
00:22:46.780 and services
00:22:47.420 and people then
00:22:48.520 began to choose
00:22:49.340 occupations of their
00:22:50.320 own choice
00:22:50.840 for the first time
00:22:51.780 and through that
00:22:52.760 you then had people
00:22:53.600 forming contracts
00:22:54.980 with other people
00:22:55.640 will you do this for me
00:22:56.700 and so you get
00:22:57.080 the birth of contracts
00:22:58.260 in Western culture
00:22:59.820 and they began
00:23:01.320 to come together
00:23:02.500 through guilds
00:23:03.660 in the original
00:23:04.240 sort of trade unions
00:23:05.460 get together
00:23:06.480 through confraternities
00:23:07.880 get together
00:23:08.820 through the establishment
00:23:09.880 of universities
00:23:10.700 and getting together
00:23:12.020 through charter towns
00:23:13.080 charter towns
00:23:13.840 are towns
00:23:14.220 that you have
00:23:14.580 to apply to join
00:23:15.500 and you take an oath
00:23:16.380 saying I will live up
00:23:17.940 to my responsibilities
00:23:18.840 to help develop this
00:23:20.120 and once you have
00:23:21.380 this cross-pollination
00:23:22.520 between all of these
00:23:23.980 different unique
00:23:24.820 uniquely Western
00:23:26.160 institutions arising
00:23:27.580 you get innovation
00:23:28.920 and social trust
00:23:30.920 is intrinsically linked
00:23:32.260 to economic prosperity
00:23:33.380 and innovation
00:23:34.480 and individualism
00:23:36.240 of course
00:23:36.680 was core to this
00:23:37.900 that was the foundation
00:23:39.840 for the uniqueness
00:23:41.160 of the West
00:23:41.780 because it's not found
00:23:42.920 anywhere else
00:23:44.060 and it was on that basis
00:23:45.640 and on those building blocks
00:23:46.920 that you began to see
00:23:47.900 the development
00:23:48.440 of a very different
00:23:49.460 type of mentality
00:23:50.520 a very different type
00:23:51.880 of view in the world
00:23:52.640 and you see evidence
00:23:53.740 of it today
00:23:54.400 for example
00:23:55.460 if you look at notions
00:23:56.940 of guilt
00:23:57.800 so guilt is very much
00:23:59.340 a Western concept
00:24:00.600 it now expands
00:24:01.960 because of industrialization
00:24:03.140 you find it in Japan
00:24:04.200 and elsewhere
00:24:04.860 but it's something
00:24:06.040 which when we do
00:24:07.600 something bad
00:24:08.260 we feel guilty
00:24:09.060 because we have let
00:24:09.940 ourselves down
00:24:10.880 as individuals
00:24:11.480 we haven't lived
00:24:12.320 up to our own
00:24:13.860 moral code
00:24:14.640 elsewhere in the world
00:24:16.260 I mean it's not
00:24:17.120 black and white
00:24:17.680 there are gradations
00:24:18.440 of this everywhere now
00:24:19.320 but it's shame
00:24:20.300 that determines
00:24:20.980 all of this
00:24:21.420 I have dishonored
00:24:22.140 my family
00:24:22.740 also for example
00:24:25.140 if you ask a Westerner
00:24:26.820 to identify themselves
00:24:28.680 they will use
00:24:29.580 achievements and attributes
00:24:31.080 so you would say
00:24:31.820 I'm Francis
00:24:32.840 I'm a stand-up comedian
00:24:34.880 I'm an extroverted introvert
00:24:37.700 and I collect
00:24:38.420 you know milk bottle tops
00:24:39.520 or whatever
00:24:39.960 right
00:24:40.300 you then ask
00:24:41.360 Nailed it
00:24:41.680 You ask someone
00:24:44.300 from an area of Africa
00:24:47.280 for example
00:24:47.820 they will say
00:24:48.320 well I'm X
00:24:49.060 I'm the son of Y
00:24:50.600 I'm the husband of Z
00:24:51.980 and I'm the father
00:24:53.340 of so and so
00:24:54.140 so again
00:24:54.740 it's family connections
00:24:55.820 that identify
00:24:56.360 who the person is
00:24:57.520 and the Anglosphere
00:25:01.020 particularly exploded
00:25:02.640 as a birthplace
00:25:04.180 of notions of liberty
00:25:05.140 and the industrial revolution
00:25:07.220 and so forth
00:25:07.860 also because of the rise
00:25:09.340 of Protestantism
00:25:10.200 because Protestantism
00:25:11.640 separated or removed
00:25:15.680 the priest from the equation
00:25:17.440 so people then had to read
00:25:19.040 the Bible themselves
00:25:20.060 they had to become literate
00:25:21.840 and so the growth of literacy
00:25:23.240 came out of Protestantism
00:25:25.080 and that's why you see
00:25:26.960 the most individual countries
00:25:28.500 in the world
00:25:28.980 on the ranking
00:25:29.500 America and Canada
00:25:30.800 are the most individualistic
00:25:31.980 then it's Australia
00:25:32.900 then it's the UK
00:25:33.980 and then it's the Scandinavian countries
00:25:37.380 which of course
00:25:37.840 are also Protestant
00:25:38.740 and this you know
00:25:39.960 I find this theory
00:25:41.400 of Joseph Heimlich
00:25:42.180 very very compelling
00:25:43.060 and you can actually see it
00:25:44.500 on a granular level
00:25:45.400 so if you look at Italy
00:25:46.620 for example
00:25:47.300 the Western church's ban
00:25:49.260 on cousin marriage
00:25:50.160 was applied very rigorously
00:25:52.020 in Northern Italy
00:25:52.920 but not in Southern Italy
00:25:54.300 and if you want to see
00:25:55.680 the difference
00:25:56.380 in the cultures
00:25:57.420 between North and South Italy
00:25:58.700 South Italy
00:25:59.560 has a great deal
00:26:00.440 of corruption
00:26:01.020 there's a reason
00:26:01.840 why the Cosa Nostra
00:26:02.820 you know
00:26:03.120 the Mafia families
00:26:04.080 came into evolution there
00:26:05.820 it's fascinating
00:26:06.540 to determine that
00:26:07.420 even within the European context
00:26:09.060 let alone
00:26:09.820 in the broader globally
00:26:10.840 so anyway
00:26:11.260 I would say
00:26:11.920 that is the origins
00:26:14.080 and reason
00:26:14.700 for Western exceptionalism
00:26:16.060 so the reason
00:26:17.080 that we are so good
00:26:18.120 at innovating
00:26:18.960 is all of that history
00:26:20.440 and your point
00:26:21.080 about Italy
00:26:21.600 is interesting
00:26:22.020 I've spent a lot
00:26:22.900 of time in Italy
00:26:23.640 the South of Italy
00:26:24.880 used to be very very rich
00:26:26.320 at a time when lemons
00:26:27.560 were this precious commodity
00:26:29.320 for seafaring etc
00:26:31.140 but they never managed
00:26:32.460 to convert that
00:26:33.320 into industrial growth
00:26:35.760 and it is a very deprived
00:26:37.280 part of Europe now
00:26:38.860 because of it
00:26:39.620 that is really really fascinating
00:26:43.560 but there's another point
00:26:45.160 sorry yeah
00:26:45.940 another point there also
00:26:47.060 because you're quite right
00:26:48.900 the process of industrialization
00:26:50.480 didn't hit Southern Italy
00:26:51.600 but also this puts a big lie
00:26:53.800 to the argument
00:26:55.100 made now all the time
00:26:56.440 that slavery
00:26:57.480 was the source
00:26:59.600 of the wealth of Britain
00:27:01.160 and that the industrial revolution
00:27:03.160 happened because of slavery
00:27:04.600 now if slavery was
00:27:06.800 the driving force
00:27:08.240 behind industrialization
00:27:09.400 you would have had Spain
00:27:11.040 and Portugal
00:27:11.860 as the great powerful behemoths
00:27:14.100 of the 18th and 19th centuries
00:27:16.300 instead of which
00:27:16.920 they became economic backwaters
00:27:18.980 you know despite the fact
00:27:19.900 that they had
00:27:20.360 Spain had one third more slaves
00:27:22.540 than Britain did
00:27:23.420 in the USA of course
00:27:25.240 the southern states
00:27:26.120 which were the slave owning states
00:27:27.320 didn't industrialize
00:27:28.380 it was the north of America
00:27:29.960 that industrialized
00:27:31.660 you know
00:27:32.280 so you know again
00:27:34.040 the point here
00:27:35.960 is that people are always looking
00:27:37.320 for a negative reason
00:27:38.720 for the exceptionalism
00:27:40.140 of the West
00:27:40.660 they're looking for a negative reason
00:27:42.500 for why Britain industrialized
00:27:44.220 it couldn't have been
00:27:45.140 because of Britain's genius
00:27:46.740 that Britain became
00:27:47.900 the first country
00:27:48.580 to industrialize
00:27:49.460 that you had Watts
00:27:50.660 and the great you know
00:27:51.600 inventors and so forth
00:27:52.700 there has to be
00:27:53.540 there has to be
00:27:54.360 a sinister source
00:27:55.500 for all of this
00:27:56.620 privilege and wealth
00:27:57.920 and genius
00:27:58.440 that that happened
00:27:59.080 and simply there's no
00:28:00.320 evidence of it at all
00:28:01.540 similarly there's no evidence
00:28:02.820 that you know
00:28:03.340 well you know
00:28:04.280 and 1792 was the peak year
00:28:07.220 for the sugar industry
00:28:08.960 and for Britain
00:28:09.780 in the slave trade
00:28:10.840 sugar was the most
00:28:12.200 important commodity
00:28:13.160 now in 1792
00:28:14.980 sugar only accounted
00:28:16.780 for 3%
00:28:17.940 of British capital formation
00:28:20.140 so if sugar really was
00:28:21.780 this huge economic
00:28:23.540 you know jewel in the crown
00:28:24.800 you would have had capital
00:28:26.060 flowing into it
00:28:26.740 from all sources
00:28:27.340 it should have been 30%
00:28:28.540 not 3%
00:28:29.860 in fact we know now
00:28:31.760 that the contribution
00:28:33.040 of sugar
00:28:34.100 to the British economy
00:28:35.160 was the same
00:28:36.240 as barley and hops
00:28:37.600 but you never get anyone
00:28:38.700 saying that beer
00:28:39.440 was the fuel
00:28:40.180 of the industrial revolution
00:28:41.280 at all do you
00:28:42.040 so again
00:28:42.660 we have to always
00:28:44.120 look at the facts here
00:28:45.300 and the facts tell
00:28:45.920 a very different story
00:28:46.800 from the predominant
00:28:48.160 narrative of our time
00:28:49.220 and Rafe we spend a lot
00:28:50.560 of time in the US
00:28:51.480 nowadays
00:28:52.000 and obviously
00:28:54.000 the history of
00:28:55.500 particularly slavery
00:28:56.620 is very very different
00:28:57.840 because they had
00:28:59.200 a lot of slaves
00:29:00.360 living there
00:29:01.160 and still
00:29:02.680 the people who
00:29:03.420 descended from their slaves
00:29:04.640 live in their society
00:29:06.860 today
00:29:07.280 I think objectively
00:29:08.440 I don't know
00:29:09.360 whether you can
00:29:10.400 trace it exactly
00:29:12.020 as that
00:29:12.620 but I suspect
00:29:13.140 you probably can
00:29:14.020 that those communities
00:29:15.520 are very deprived
00:29:16.540 when you see it
00:29:17.500 with your own eyes
00:29:18.060 when you travel around
00:29:18.780 the United States
00:29:19.480 and you also see
00:29:20.860 that people's
00:29:22.080 subjective feelings
00:29:24.100 about that issue
00:29:24.700 people are much more
00:29:25.520 sensitive about that issue
00:29:26.760 there
00:29:26.980 even than they are
00:29:27.900 here in Britain
00:29:28.800 what can you tell us
00:29:30.400 about the United States
00:29:31.460 and the colonial
00:29:32.600 Americas
00:29:33.760 in terms of
00:29:35.140 all of these issues
00:29:36.060 it's undeniable
00:29:37.720 that you know
00:29:38.420 the chattel slavery
00:29:39.820 in America
00:29:40.460 was absolutely brutal
00:29:41.940 and horrific
00:29:42.820 and you know
00:29:44.140 I would say
00:29:44.920 obviously anybody
00:29:45.720 who was around
00:29:46.400 in the 1860s
00:29:47.400 would be absolutely
00:29:48.400 entitled to claim
00:29:49.540 reparations for the horrors
00:29:50.940 the absolute horrors
00:29:52.340 of slavery
00:29:53.060 and much the same
00:29:54.460 as in the British
00:29:55.320 Caribbean islands
00:29:56.220 you know
00:29:56.560 slavery was horrific there
00:29:58.360 has to be said
00:29:59.320 at the same time
00:30:00.000 that black Americans
00:30:01.060 are the wealthiest
00:30:02.800 black people
00:30:03.480 in the world
00:30:04.020 I mean
00:30:04.320 so there is a lot
00:30:05.020 of deprivation
00:30:05.620 obviously
00:30:06.040 but they still have
00:30:07.220 the greatest amount
00:30:08.340 of wealth
00:30:08.700 of any element
00:30:10.440 of the African diaspora
00:30:13.280 but the call
00:30:15.500 now today
00:30:16.300 this whole idea
00:30:17.960 of inherited
00:30:18.820 trauma
00:30:20.100 for example
00:30:20.860 we're talking about
00:30:22.000 eight generations now
00:30:23.300 we're talking about
00:30:24.000 the great great great great
00:30:25.220 great great great
00:30:25.840 great grandchildren
00:30:26.740 and the whole issue
00:30:28.920 of giving reparations
00:30:31.040 or compensating people
00:30:32.280 for the past
00:30:32.980 is I don't think
00:30:34.820 it holds any water
00:30:35.600 because reparations
00:30:36.800 are fundamentally
00:30:37.400 an issue of tort law
00:30:38.620 it's about putting
00:30:39.520 the victim back
00:30:40.260 into the position
00:30:40.900 they would have been in
00:30:41.760 had the trauma
00:30:43.800 not occurred
00:30:44.620 but I don't see
00:30:46.000 why you could
00:30:47.060 actually say today
00:30:48.080 that the lives
00:30:49.580 of African Americans
00:30:50.660 in America
00:30:51.680 is actually worse
00:30:53.160 than if they had never
00:30:54.040 had their ancestors
00:30:54.980 leave Africa
00:30:56.160 you know
00:30:56.840 in 1973
00:30:57.660 I think it was
00:30:58.560 72
00:30:58.880 you had the rumble
00:30:59.960 in the jungle
00:31:00.520 when Muhammad Ali
00:31:01.440 went to fight
00:31:02.920 in Zaire
00:31:04.100 and he was asked
00:31:05.840 by one of the journalists
00:31:06.640 he said
00:31:06.960 well what do you think
00:31:07.500 of Africa
00:31:07.940 he said
00:31:08.480 I'm so glad
00:31:09.320 my granddaddy
00:31:09.940 got on that boat
00:31:10.700 now this is a black
00:31:13.580 civil rights activist
00:31:14.960 right
00:31:15.260 and you know
00:31:16.220 he could see
00:31:16.700 the difference there
00:31:17.420 so yeah
00:31:17.780 life is not great
00:31:18.820 for everybody
00:31:19.400 but it's a hell
00:31:20.240 of a lot better
00:31:20.880 I mean
00:31:21.320 for example
00:31:22.080 let's look at it
00:31:23.480 this way
00:31:23.740 CARICOM
00:31:24.300 which is the organization
00:31:25.260 in the Caribbean
00:31:26.240 trying to get compensation
00:31:27.420 from the British
00:31:28.240 and the Americans
00:31:29.020 I think it's in the region
00:31:30.180 of trillions of pounds
00:31:31.180 they wanted compensation
00:31:32.260 for slavery
00:31:33.280 I'm sorry
00:31:34.140 but the Caribbean nations
00:31:35.280 are actually middle income
00:31:36.880 countries
00:31:37.380 which rank higher
00:31:38.180 on the human development
00:31:39.100 index
00:31:39.620 than Brazil
00:31:40.400 or Mexico
00:31:41.500 if you look
00:31:43.100 for example
00:31:43.680 the best way
00:31:44.720 to do it
00:31:45.060 is to compare
00:31:45.660 the Caribbean
00:31:46.220 to West Africa
00:31:47.180 which is where
00:31:47.660 the slaves came from
00:31:48.680 so the annual GDP
00:31:50.340 per capita
00:31:51.000 in Benin
00:31:51.660 is $1,400
00:31:53.400 approximately
00:31:54.340 in Barbados
00:31:55.500 it's $17,000
00:31:57.060 so we're talking
00:31:57.640 about 10 times
00:31:58.700 higher income
00:31:59.660 the life expectancy
00:32:01.060 in Benin
00:32:01.620 is 62
00:32:02.380 in Barbados
00:32:03.620 it's 79
00:32:05.020 so we're talking
00:32:06.000 about 15 years
00:32:07.000 more life
00:32:07.600 10 times
00:32:08.540 more money
00:32:09.420 so you know
00:32:11.020 as horrific
00:32:12.020 as slavery was
00:32:12.940 and nobody
00:32:13.360 is suggesting
00:32:13.920 that slavery
00:32:14.360 wasn't horrific
00:32:15.080 it's impossible
00:32:16.140 for me
00:32:16.660 to understand
00:32:17.340 why no one
00:32:17.780 can say
00:32:18.140 that the lives
00:32:18.880 of people
00:32:19.480 living in the Caribbean
00:32:20.360 living in this country
00:32:21.860 living in America
00:32:23.080 are worse
00:32:24.100 because their ancestors
00:32:25.360 were enslaved
00:32:26.200 in fact
00:32:26.660 it's just the opposite
00:32:27.420 I would say
00:32:28.020 do you not think
00:32:28.560 the idea
00:32:29.100 of intergenerational trauma
00:32:30.680 is true though
00:32:31.760 because
00:32:32.260 think about
00:32:33.540 how much
00:32:34.140 your life
00:32:34.860 would be set back
00:32:35.800 if you were
00:32:36.240 starting in that position
00:32:37.300 the life
00:32:38.140 you were able
00:32:38.520 to give to your children
00:32:39.400 would be obviously
00:32:40.320 significantly affected
00:32:41.480 by that
00:32:41.980 the life
00:32:42.620 that they would be able
00:32:43.240 to give to their children
00:32:44.160 you can play that movie
00:32:45.040 forward
00:32:45.340 I mean
00:32:45.560 I take my own example
00:32:47.260 you know
00:32:48.060 my ancestors
00:32:49.340 being deported
00:32:51.160 to Siberia
00:32:52.020 because they were
00:32:52.620 Kulaks
00:32:53.080 or whatever
00:32:53.520 like that had
00:32:54.460 a material effect
00:32:55.340 on all our family
00:32:56.140 if we'd been living
00:32:56.980 in the United States
00:32:58.620 and just multiplying
00:32:59.580 our wealth
00:33:00.060 this entire time
00:33:00.940 this studio
00:33:01.680 would be a lot bigger
00:33:02.440 do you know
00:33:02.940 do you know what I'm saying
00:33:03.500 yeah but there's no evidence
00:33:04.240 for that in West Africa
00:33:05.120 that's my point
00:33:05.960 I mean we're talking
00:33:06.600 about people
00:33:07.140 who are 10 times poorer
00:33:08.400 and live 15 years less
00:33:10.660 in West Africa
00:33:11.640 so if those
00:33:12.380 so I don't see that
00:33:13.340 I mean look
00:33:13.920 my family were Polish
00:33:15.740 in what is now
00:33:16.820 Western Ukraine
00:33:17.500 but that was Poland
00:33:18.360 before the war
00:33:19.020 they were sent to
00:33:20.440 sent to the Gulags
00:33:21.960 in Kazakhstan
00:33:22.600 and in Siberia
00:33:23.880 I had also had family
00:33:25.440 in Auschwitz as well
00:33:27.540 who were Polish
00:33:28.160 political prisoners there
00:33:29.440 so communists
00:33:30.320 and fascists
00:33:30.760 both
00:33:31.000 now the idea
00:33:32.140 that I would try
00:33:32.760 and seek compensation
00:33:33.420 for that
00:33:34.060 I think is ridiculous
00:33:35.160 even though it severely
00:33:36.380 impacted my own life
00:33:37.680 because of course
00:33:38.520 my family were aristocrats
00:33:40.520 and had a great lifestyle
00:33:41.480 over there
00:33:42.060 but I don't understand
00:33:44.280 that you know
00:33:44.700 this idea of inherited trauma
00:33:46.720 lasting for eight generations
00:33:48.020 yeah I guess
00:33:49.160 the thing that I suppose
00:33:50.620 we're getting to
00:33:51.560 is how do we process
00:33:53.740 the evil things
00:33:55.180 that were done
00:33:55.920 by our societies
00:33:57.460 in the past
00:33:58.040 how do
00:33:58.360 what is the healthy view
00:34:00.320 of that
00:34:00.640 is I think
00:34:01.180 the question
00:34:01.640 for our time
00:34:02.140 the healthy view
00:34:02.860 is to accept it
00:34:03.860 and acknowledge it fully
00:34:05.000 you know
00:34:05.780 but also to put it
00:34:07.240 into context
00:34:07.900 of what was going on
00:34:08.820 at the time
00:34:09.340 again don't judge
00:34:10.460 the past
00:34:10.940 by today's standards
00:34:12.080 atrocities
00:34:13.060 are always atrocities
00:34:14.160 but in terms of
00:34:15.620 attitudes and so forth
00:34:17.460 those must always be taken
00:34:18.460 within the context
00:34:19.120 of the time
00:34:19.720 but as I say
00:34:20.860 you know
00:34:21.520 the evils of slavery
00:34:23.940 were horrendous
00:34:24.780 for the time
00:34:25.440 but I don't think
00:34:26.340 we can say
00:34:26.860 that the legacy
00:34:27.960 of that today
00:34:28.680 is such a bad thing
00:34:30.020 when you consider
00:34:30.700 the wealth of the Caribbean
00:34:32.720 the wealth of America
00:34:33.720 and the wealth of black people
00:34:35.360 living in this country
00:34:36.240 compared to what it was
00:34:37.340 in Africa
00:34:38.100 so yeah
00:34:38.940 look
00:34:39.580 no one is trying to put
00:34:40.520 anything under the carpet
00:34:41.420 we must always expose
00:34:42.940 but the problem is
00:34:43.780 we have too much focus
00:34:44.840 on the negative
00:34:45.540 and not enough focus
00:34:47.020 on the good things
00:34:48.340 that were done
00:34:48.860 and as I say
00:34:49.500 no civilization before
00:34:51.240 had you know
00:34:52.160 as Western Europe
00:34:53.000 had done
00:34:53.440 had been inspired
00:34:54.560 to try to abolish
00:34:55.760 an age-old custom
00:34:56.860 of slavery
00:34:57.440 and in fact
00:34:58.060 you know
00:34:58.420 it was not just slavery
00:35:00.140 I mean
00:35:00.460 if you look
00:35:00.800 what the British Empire did
00:35:01.880 in India
00:35:02.800 they stopped
00:35:03.360 the burning of Hindu women
00:35:04.980 on funeral pyres
00:35:06.020 they stopped
00:35:07.140 the infanticide
00:35:07.920 of young girls
00:35:08.640 well they passed legislation
00:35:09.680 to stop the infanticide
00:35:10.640 of young girls
00:35:11.140 they allowed Hindu women
00:35:12.520 to remarry
00:35:13.500 they stopped
00:35:14.260 head hunting
00:35:14.900 in New Zealand
00:35:15.820 tried to stop
00:35:16.700 female genital mutilation
00:35:17.940 in East Africa
00:35:18.820 you had
00:35:19.880 human sacrifices
00:35:21.140 were carrying on
00:35:21.960 you know
00:35:22.180 in the kingdom
00:35:22.620 of Benin and Dahome
00:35:23.720 there were annual sacrifices
00:35:25.280 of slaves
00:35:25.940 in the thousands
00:35:27.040 you know
00:35:27.860 still carries on today
00:35:28.880 unfortunately
00:35:29.360 in many countries
00:35:30.060 in Africa
00:35:30.520 in Mozambique
00:35:31.260 and Mali
00:35:31.720 and elsewhere
00:35:32.180 you still get
00:35:32.880 witchcraft related
00:35:34.400 human sacrifice
00:35:35.120 taking place
00:35:35.740 the British were trying
00:35:37.000 to abolish all of that
00:35:38.540 so of course
00:35:39.060 there are huge stains
00:35:40.060 on Britain's legacy
00:35:41.040 but there's also
00:35:42.020 an immense amount
00:35:42.820 of good
00:35:43.180 that we should be celebrating
00:35:44.320 particularly for example
00:35:45.720 if you're women
00:35:46.320 because women's rights
00:35:47.280 around the world
00:35:47.940 were hugely elevated
00:35:49.060 by the presence
00:35:50.160 of the British Empire
00:35:51.360 in very patriarchal
00:35:53.700 very misogynistic cultures
00:35:54.920 such as India
00:35:55.540 and so forth
00:35:56.200 and so the reason
00:35:56.840 you have so many
00:35:57.940 ethnic minority women
00:35:59.260 in positions of power
00:36:00.320 around the world
00:36:01.140 is in large part
00:36:02.400 because of the British Empire
00:36:03.500 and you know
00:36:04.460 the creation
00:36:05.640 of democratic legislatures
00:36:06.980 across you know
00:36:08.000 one quarter of the globe
00:36:09.140 is thanks to Britain
00:36:10.660 and the British Empire
00:36:11.540 Grave
00:36:12.540 do you sometimes think
00:36:13.600 that we're being gaslit
00:36:14.920 as a society
00:36:15.840 when it comes
00:36:17.100 to our historical legacy?
00:36:19.860 Yeah
00:36:20.140 I think it's undeniable
00:36:21.040 I mean
00:36:21.360 the record just speaks
00:36:22.280 for itself
00:36:22.840 to just open a newspaper today
00:36:24.580 or go online
00:36:25.340 and you'll see that
00:36:26.600 we are seeing
00:36:27.460 a concerted effort
00:36:28.460 but the point is
00:36:29.640 of course
00:36:30.020 none of this
00:36:31.040 is based upon
00:36:32.140 a genuine quest
00:36:33.540 for truth
00:36:34.480 or justice
00:36:35.240 nobody
00:36:36.100 as I said before
00:36:37.100 none of the campaigners
00:36:38.560 from BLM
00:36:39.160 and elsewhere
00:36:39.540 care about slavery
00:36:40.640 if they did
00:36:41.260 they'd be campaigning
00:36:41.940 about modern slavery
00:36:42.940 this is all about
00:36:44.300 trying to undermine
00:36:45.520 the West
00:36:46.040 and its achievements
00:36:46.780 and so let's talk
00:36:48.800 a little bit
00:36:49.480 about communism
00:36:51.100 as somebody
00:36:52.360 who has
00:36:53.620 who saw communism
00:36:54.620 rise
00:36:55.100 in
00:36:55.580 his own country
00:36:57.600 I don't understand
00:36:59.900 why
00:37:00.920 it has this pull
00:37:02.840 what is it
00:37:03.980 about
00:37:04.360 this
00:37:05.060 ideology
00:37:06.420 that is so
00:37:07.600 that is so attractive
00:37:08.620 to young people
00:37:09.380 why
00:37:09.760 why is the marketing
00:37:10.780 about it so great
00:37:11.780 you see kids
00:37:13.020 wearing
00:37:13.460 Che Guevara t-shirts
00:37:14.920 Che Guevara
00:37:16.300 was a
00:37:17.180 rabid homophobe
00:37:19.020 who executed
00:37:20.160 gay people
00:37:20.780 despised them
00:37:21.760 and a racist as well
00:37:22.900 yeah
00:37:23.140 as was Karl Marx
00:37:24.200 a huge racist
00:37:25.000 you know you'll have
00:37:25.720 Churchill being condemned
00:37:26.820 as a racist
00:37:27.400 Churchill never used
00:37:28.560 the n-word
00:37:29.160 he very rarely
00:37:30.020 used any racial epithets
00:37:31.940 actually
00:37:32.260 in all the millions
00:37:32.960 of words we have about him
00:37:34.040 he never once used
00:37:34.920 used the n-word
00:37:36.580 for example
00:37:37.060 Karl Marx was using it
00:37:38.440 seemingly almost every day
00:37:39.640 if you read his letters
00:37:40.520 to Engels
00:37:41.120 and so forth
00:37:42.380 he might have been a fan
00:37:43.260 of hip-hop
00:37:43.780 right
00:37:44.000 but communism
00:37:46.400 you know
00:37:46.940 it appeals to
00:37:48.100 you know
00:37:48.400 you've got to remember
00:37:49.180 youth are open
00:37:50.480 to radicalisation
00:37:51.360 you know
00:37:51.700 whether it be radical Islam
00:37:52.840 whether it be communism
00:37:54.340 whether it just be
00:37:55.400 you know
00:37:55.640 gangs in LA
00:37:56.540 and elsewhere
00:37:57.100 you know
00:37:57.880 people want to become
00:37:58.740 part of something
00:37:59.380 and the whole
00:37:59.920 notion of Marxism
00:38:01.580 which is about
00:38:02.160 the oppressor
00:38:02.780 and the oppressed
00:38:03.360 is very appealing
00:38:04.260 to youth
00:38:05.420 who are naturally
00:38:06.440 left-wing
00:38:06.900 remember the old adage
00:38:07.920 if you're not a liberal
00:38:08.660 at 25 you have no
00:38:10.000 heart
00:38:10.760 if you're not a conservative
00:38:11.600 at 35 you have no brain
00:38:12.920 right
00:38:13.200 so it's that
00:38:13.920 age demographic
00:38:15.720 but I think
00:38:17.040 what woke is
00:38:17.760 tacked into that
00:38:18.620 that's why I call it
00:38:19.360 American Marxism
00:38:20.380 actually
00:38:20.740 and you know
00:38:21.900 James Lindsay
00:38:22.600 he's got a very good
00:38:23.560 analogy for this
00:38:24.420 about the
00:38:25.100 the genus
00:38:26.240 of a cat
00:38:27.220 so he says
00:38:28.080 Marxism is the cat
00:38:29.420 the genus
00:38:29.960 but then you have a cat
00:38:30.760 but then you have
00:38:31.220 tigers
00:38:32.320 lions
00:38:33.020 leopards
00:38:33.660 tabby cats
00:38:34.460 are all species
00:38:35.440 of cats
00:38:36.180 in the same way
00:38:37.560 you've had
00:38:38.160 you had
00:38:38.740 traditional economic Marxism
00:38:40.600 which is about
00:38:41.060 the proletariat
00:38:41.760 and the bourgeoisie
00:38:42.640 you know
00:38:43.300 the oppressor
00:38:44.300 and the oppressed
00:38:45.540 and that was a direct attack
00:38:46.840 on capitalism
00:38:48.060 and on private property
00:38:50.380 but now we have
00:38:51.540 all the other Marxisms now
00:38:52.920 so we have
00:38:53.640 critical race theory
00:38:55.380 which is an attack
00:38:56.460 on whiteness
00:38:57.500 you have
00:38:58.640 radical feminism
00:38:59.740 which is an attack
00:39:00.820 on men
00:39:01.400 and importantly
00:39:02.380 on the masculine qualities
00:39:03.840 that made the West
00:39:05.180 so great
00:39:05.860 you have queer theory
00:39:07.680 which is an attack
00:39:08.640 on heterosexuality
00:39:09.820 but more importantly
00:39:10.620 also an attack
00:39:11.540 on the family
00:39:12.560 and you have
00:39:13.520 what we're talking about
00:39:14.520 which is post-colonialism
00:39:15.860 and decolonization
00:39:16.820 which is an attack
00:39:18.080 on everything
00:39:18.700 that the West achieved
00:39:19.700 and these are all linked
00:39:20.780 by intersectionality
00:39:22.400 and taken together
00:39:24.260 that is an extremely
00:39:25.620 potent force
00:39:26.600 for undermining
00:39:27.260 and demoralizing
00:39:28.000 the West
00:39:28.500 and the reason
00:39:30.400 it's come into effect
00:39:31.380 is again
00:39:31.840 because of this
00:39:32.640 gradual long march
00:39:33.640 where everything
00:39:34.500 all of this
00:39:34.980 becomes normalized now
00:39:36.020 the people
00:39:36.680 who are espousing this
00:39:37.760 in the 1970s
00:39:38.960 were radicals
00:39:40.780 underground
00:39:41.280 all of that stuff
00:39:42.380 is now completely
00:39:43.160 mainstream
00:39:43.700 and the people
00:39:44.280 who are espousing that
00:39:45.320 wouldn't even identify
00:39:46.700 themselves as being
00:39:47.740 radically left
00:39:48.460 they would say
00:39:49.020 that they are liberal
00:39:49.800 but the fact is
00:39:51.160 they are espousing views
00:39:52.220 that were fundamentally
00:39:53.120 extremely
00:39:54.420 you know
00:39:55.080 extreme Marxist
00:39:56.240 viewpoints
00:39:56.780 just 40-50 years ago
00:39:58.380 and people aren't even aware
00:39:59.760 that they are now
00:40:00.380 espousing communist ideology
00:40:01.780 and so what happens
00:40:03.460 because you're a historian
00:40:05.440 can you see parallels
00:40:07.120 with former societies
00:40:08.520 and empires
00:40:09.280 where ideologies
00:40:11.200 rose to the surface
00:40:12.540 that were toxic
00:40:13.560 to the cohesion
00:40:15.160 of that society
00:40:16.300 well we can see
00:40:17.800 a direct parallel
00:40:18.860 obviously
00:40:19.320 you know
00:40:19.760 around the world
00:40:20.560 but you know
00:40:21.020 let me just put it
00:40:21.780 this way
00:40:23.100 if you look at
00:40:23.840 if you look at
00:40:25.080 China
00:40:25.820 and the communist Europe
00:40:27.900 you can really see
00:40:29.220 what was the first thing
00:40:30.240 that happened
00:40:30.640 in the former Soviet bloc
00:40:32.600 with the fall of communism
00:40:33.920 they restored
00:40:35.200 their national flags
00:40:36.260 and they restored
00:40:36.980 their national anthems
00:40:38.100 they restored
00:40:38.720 their orders
00:40:39.220 and decorations
00:40:39.920 they restored
00:40:41.060 all of the symbols
00:40:41.860 and identity
00:40:42.460 of the nation
00:40:43.860 which had been
00:40:44.420 completely undermined
00:40:45.800 by communism
00:40:47.100 and they tried
00:40:47.660 to rewrite your history
00:40:48.820 that's exactly
00:40:49.820 what we're seeing
00:40:50.480 here as well
00:40:51.120 it's this march
00:40:51.900 towards sort of
00:40:52.640 a year zero
00:40:53.240 we're having
00:40:53.700 our history rewritten
00:40:55.020 we're having
00:40:55.920 our heroes undermined
00:40:57.180 the entire notion
00:40:58.680 that there is anything
00:40:59.240 to be proud of
00:40:59.940 in a society
00:41:00.560 so all of these
00:41:01.620 ideologies
00:41:02.680 arise
00:41:03.700 through a need
00:41:04.940 to
00:41:05.300 through an attempt
00:41:06.520 to undermine
00:41:07.200 what came before
00:41:08.460 that's the
00:41:09.280 that's the common value
00:41:11.040 of all ideologies
00:41:12.000 that they try to undermine
00:41:13.060 what came before
00:41:13.860 and replace it
00:41:15.000 but you know
00:41:15.880 artificially constructed
00:41:17.000 ideologies rarely last
00:41:18.720 because of course
00:41:20.100 they don't have
00:41:20.620 secure foundations
00:41:21.580 now it took
00:41:22.780 you know
00:41:23.280 70 years
00:41:24.020 or whatever it took
00:41:24.560 for communism
00:41:25.060 to finally collapse
00:41:26.060 who knows how long
00:41:27.280 it will take
00:41:27.700 in this country
00:41:28.300 but you know
00:41:28.880 I think hopefully
00:41:29.700 there are enough
00:41:30.860 there are enough
00:41:31.480 of us now
00:41:32.060 speaking out against this
00:41:33.220 and trying to turn
00:41:34.560 the trying to subvert
00:41:36.180 the subverted
00:41:36.860 that hopefully
00:41:37.640 it won't be that long
00:41:38.440 maybe
00:41:40.760 but the other thing
00:41:42.880 that has happened
00:41:43.700 and this ideology
00:41:44.760 has created
00:41:45.620 is
00:41:46.280 demographic change
00:41:48.660 with mass immigration
00:41:50.080 the difficulty
00:41:51.280 I see
00:41:51.940 is that
00:41:52.620 you're increasingly
00:41:53.980 not one people
00:41:55.200 right
00:41:56.080 so in that situation
00:41:57.640 it's hard to see
00:41:58.440 how you make
00:41:59.220 your way back
00:41:59.780 unless people
00:42:01.140 do what you
00:42:01.600 and I have done
00:42:02.140 or your family
00:42:02.860 have done
00:42:03.180 and we
00:42:03.540 all through us
00:42:04.220 have done
00:42:04.480 which is integrate
00:42:05.120 and adopt the values
00:42:06.480 of the society
00:42:07.140 to which we've come
00:42:08.080 right
00:42:08.560 but it's
00:42:09.640 yeah
00:42:09.880 but I don't
00:42:10.420 integration is one
00:42:11.460 of the greatest
00:42:11.860 dilemmas we're facing
00:42:12.840 right
00:42:13.360 I mean
00:42:13.860 in the 80s and 90s
00:42:15.420 we had an immigration
00:42:16.280 of 50,000 a year
00:42:17.880 right
00:42:18.380 we had more immigration
00:42:19.360 last year
00:42:20.020 than the entire decade
00:42:21.100 of the 1980s combined
00:42:22.460 you know
00:42:22.800 we've had more immigration
00:42:23.700 in the last 25 years
00:42:25.300 than in the last
00:42:26.320 2,000 years
00:42:27.520 so the idea
00:42:28.660 that you can integrate
00:42:29.540 such large numbers
00:42:30.500 of people
00:42:31.060 is simply impossible
00:42:32.220 because there's no incentive
00:42:33.440 for them to integrate
00:42:34.400 right
00:42:34.760 because they have
00:42:35.540 their own communities
00:42:36.900 they watch satellite television
00:42:38.500 they're not even watching
00:42:39.280 any content
00:42:40.380 or any
00:42:40.900 they don't have any exposure
00:42:41.960 to the rest of society
00:42:43.940 now look
00:42:44.760 my family arrived here
00:42:45.900 in 1940
00:42:46.700 with the Polish government
00:42:47.780 when Hitler invaded France
00:42:49.700 and de Gaulle came over
00:42:50.720 and the Free French
00:42:51.380 and so forth
00:42:51.940 and my family were as
00:42:53.480 you know
00:42:53.960 the gold standard
00:42:55.980 for what you would want
00:42:56.860 they spoke English
00:42:58.120 they loved Britain
00:42:59.640 had a picture of the Queen
00:43:00.660 in the living room
00:43:01.440 went to Ascot and Henley
00:43:03.100 and did all that sort of stuff
00:43:04.180 but they still
00:43:05.300 after 60 years living here
00:43:07.120 they still never identified
00:43:08.460 as British
00:43:09.060 so we'd be watching
00:43:10.280 a documentary
00:43:10.840 and my great uncle
00:43:11.840 would say
00:43:12.260 gosh don't the British
00:43:13.440 make great documentaries
00:43:14.540 you know
00:43:15.120 things like this
00:43:15.920 they absolutely loved
00:43:16.540 but he still never felt
00:43:17.880 part of it
00:43:18.460 now what we've been told
00:43:19.780 of course is that
00:43:20.360 oh that's just
00:43:20.940 the first generation
00:43:21.880 you know
00:43:22.200 second and third generations
00:43:23.480 will automatically assimilate
00:43:25.100 now that does happen
00:43:26.600 for example
00:43:27.120 for the Polish community
00:43:28.160 and European communities
00:43:29.260 who come from a similar
00:43:30.120 cultural background
00:43:31.100 but what we've seen
00:43:33.220 from all the latest polling
00:43:34.160 for example
00:43:34.660 is that Muslim youth
00:43:36.220 are far more radicalised
00:43:37.700 than their parents
00:43:38.580 or their grandparents
00:43:39.480 you know
00:43:40.940 do we know why that is?
00:43:43.020 well
00:43:43.440 that's a very good
00:43:44.140 well
00:43:44.320 I don't know
00:43:44.920 necessarily why it is
00:43:46.320 I think it's because
00:43:47.060 they don't feel
00:43:48.020 a natural affinity to Britain
00:43:49.400 and they have a
00:43:51.260 they have a
00:43:52.260 it's much the same way
00:43:53.540 that if you went to Canada
00:43:54.620 in the 1950s
00:43:55.520 they were more English
00:43:56.240 than the English
00:43:56.900 I think that there's a great feeling
00:43:58.440 they identify more
00:43:59.240 with their homeland
00:43:59.840 because that's all they hear
00:44:00.960 from their parents
00:44:01.800 and so they create
00:44:03.300 in their mind
00:44:03.960 this ultra orthodox version
00:44:06.540 of what they think
00:44:07.380 exists in their homeland
00:44:08.380 so you know
00:44:09.880 one third of youth
00:44:11.320 aged 16 to 24
00:44:12.480 according to a
00:44:13.420 policy exchange report
00:44:14.660 believe you should be
00:44:15.620 put to death
00:44:16.240 if you leave the faith
00:44:17.380 for you know apostasy
00:44:18.700 you know
00:44:19.440 a majority believe
00:44:21.300 that homosexuality
00:44:22.120 should be illegal
00:44:22.800 compared to 5%
00:44:23.880 who don't
00:44:24.800 62% believe
00:44:26.480 that you should
00:44:27.280 have restrictions
00:44:27.980 on free speech
00:44:28.880 a majority believe
00:44:30.280 that you know
00:44:31.480 a picture of Mohammed
00:44:33.100 should be illegal
00:44:33.740 to be shown
00:44:34.400 these are far more
00:44:35.680 strongly felt
00:44:36.460 amongst the youth
00:44:37.140 of Britain
00:44:37.820 than amongst their parents
00:44:39.320 and their grandparents
00:44:40.240 and I think
00:44:41.660 it's impossible
00:44:42.460 to expect
00:44:43.740 people who live
00:44:44.980 in ghettoized communities
00:44:46.560 as increasingly is the case
00:44:47.920 to feel any affinity
00:44:49.420 with Britain
00:44:49.960 and why would they
00:44:51.060 want to integrate
00:44:51.760 when all the messaging
00:44:52.820 they get
00:44:53.260 is that Britain
00:44:53.740 is a terrible country
00:44:55.160 you know
00:44:55.760 when the media
00:44:56.360 and the universities
00:44:57.120 and our institutions
00:44:57.920 are constantly denigrating
00:44:59.060 Britain's achievements
00:45:00.040 why would they feel
00:45:01.540 a need to integrate
00:45:03.780 and when we're elevating
00:45:05.300 minority cultures
00:45:06.340 over British culture
00:45:07.980 when we are constantly
00:45:09.380 trying to affirm
00:45:10.300 everyone's existing identity
00:45:12.140 there is no insensitive
00:45:13.680 and it's no surprise
00:45:15.100 therefore
00:45:15.380 that they're going
00:45:15.880 to cleave more
00:45:16.660 to that sort of masculine
00:45:17.880 well defined identity
00:45:19.460 of their fathers
00:45:20.240 what it actually talks
00:45:21.680 about as well
00:45:22.340 and we touched on this
00:45:23.760 is a deep sense
00:45:25.180 of alienation here
00:45:26.340 because a lot
00:45:28.060 of these kids
00:45:28.700 I imagine
00:45:29.420 although they may say
00:45:31.040 they're Bangladeshi
00:45:32.700 Pakistani
00:45:33.100 whatever else
00:45:33.920 I can pretty much guarantee
00:45:35.680 that if they went
00:45:36.560 to those countries
00:45:37.420 the people in those countries
00:45:39.040 would say
00:45:39.520 no you're not
00:45:40.100 you're not one of us
00:45:41.200 you're British
00:45:42.280 but then when they're
00:45:43.640 in Britain
00:45:44.180 they don't feel
00:45:45.280 an affinity
00:45:45.720 with that country
00:45:46.820 so it makes sense
00:45:49.480 in a way
00:45:49.960 that you cleave
00:45:50.880 to something
00:45:51.480 and you become
00:45:52.120 more extreme
00:45:52.760 as a result
00:45:53.440 because you feel
00:45:54.560 like you don't
00:45:55.060 belong anywhere
00:45:55.780 yeah but you don't
00:45:56.880 find the same levels
00:45:57.800 with Hindus
00:45:58.460 you don't find
00:45:59.000 the same thing
00:45:59.520 with Sikhs
00:46:00.240 for example
00:46:00.800 you don't find
00:46:01.460 the same thing
00:46:02.020 with Chinese
00:46:02.740 who come over here
00:46:03.920 there is something
00:46:04.860 about the Islamic
00:46:06.220 culture
00:46:06.680 which fosters this
00:46:08.480 and unfortunately
00:46:09.140 they are living
00:46:10.440 in these increasingly
00:46:12.000 segregated communities
00:46:13.140 and we know
00:46:13.680 that Muslims
00:46:14.960 are twice as likely
00:46:15.980 to become extremists
00:46:17.200 if they live
00:46:17.800 in ghettoized communities
00:46:18.980 and these communities
00:46:20.200 unfortunately
00:46:20.940 are almost like
00:46:23.380 petri dishes
00:46:24.200 allowing the cultivation
00:46:25.880 of cultural practices
00:46:26.960 which we would find
00:46:27.840 abhorrent
00:46:28.400 in the rest of society
00:46:29.820 and that is
00:46:31.280 I think
00:46:31.640 a huge challenge
00:46:32.460 that nobody is
00:46:33.320 willing to discuss
00:46:35.220 you know
00:46:35.640 honor killings
00:46:37.080 child marriages
00:46:38.100 arranged marriages
00:46:39.140 rape gangs
00:46:40.620 you know
00:46:41.000 Britain is now
00:46:41.720 the world's leading
00:46:42.600 country
00:46:43.020 in asset attacks
00:46:43.960 these are all practices
00:46:45.360 that are happening
00:46:46.000 within this country
00:46:46.800 which the mainstream media
00:46:48.040 won't touch
00:46:49.020 and won't discuss
00:46:50.020 and you know
00:46:51.220 forget integration
00:46:52.140 we still first need
00:46:53.580 to tackle
00:46:54.420 these sort of sinister
00:46:56.240 and destructive
00:46:57.400 corrosive elements
00:46:58.580 which are increasingly
00:46:59.920 present in what
00:47:00.800 is becoming
00:47:01.420 a fractured
00:47:03.220 ethno-nationalist
00:47:05.020 state
00:47:05.700 where you have
00:47:06.420 these silos
00:47:07.240 developing
00:47:07.860 you know
00:47:08.140 from Bradford
00:47:08.780 and Burnley
00:47:09.460 Birmingham
00:47:10.660 these places
00:47:11.880 there are areas
00:47:12.360 of these cities
00:47:13.220 which are now
00:47:13.800 90%
00:47:14.660 Muslim
00:47:16.100 and you know
00:47:18.240 the Danes
00:47:19.140 had a very good
00:47:19.800 approach to all of this
00:47:20.840 where they have been
00:47:22.040 knocking down
00:47:22.640 a lot of these ghettos
00:47:23.600 super ghettos
00:47:24.720 as they call them
00:47:25.420 and they have a policy
00:47:26.860 now where only
00:47:27.880 no more than 30%
00:47:29.340 of any community
00:47:30.140 can be ethnic minority
00:47:31.280 the idea there being
00:47:32.960 to enforce
00:47:33.780 a predominance
00:47:35.120 of Danish values
00:47:36.120 Danish culture
00:47:37.100 ethnic minorities
00:47:38.740 who were born in Denmark
00:47:39.720 they have to undergo
00:47:40.920 30 hours a week
00:47:42.540 of Danish child care
00:47:44.520 where they are taught
00:47:45.280 Danish language
00:47:46.400 Danish values
00:47:47.820 and so forth
00:47:48.660 in school settings
00:47:50.260 no more than
00:47:50.960 30% of schools
00:47:53.020 can have ethnic minorities
00:47:54.220 in them
00:47:54.780 and that's the only way
00:47:56.280 that you can ever hope
00:47:57.260 to have some attempt
00:47:58.380 at integrating
00:47:59.040 because right now
00:48:00.120 you know
00:48:00.700 it was reported
00:48:01.400 in the Daily Mail
00:48:02.080 that there are schools
00:48:02.700 in the north of England
00:48:03.400 where children think
00:48:04.800 that actually
00:48:05.420 Britain is predominantly Asian
00:48:06.760 because that's all they see
00:48:07.820 every day around them
00:48:08.860 that's not
00:48:09.760 there's no hope
00:48:10.420 to have any attempt
00:48:11.680 at integration
00:48:12.260 when you have that
00:48:13.000 when you have that
00:48:13.960 sort of dynamic
00:48:14.680 and demographic
00:48:15.340 yeah but demographics
00:48:16.100 are the greatest challenge
00:48:17.140 we face
00:48:17.640 I mean you know
00:48:18.640 Professor David Coleman
00:48:20.400 who's a leading
00:48:21.100 professor of demography
00:48:22.960 emeritus professor
00:48:23.820 at Oxford University
00:48:24.760 he said
00:48:25.700 he wrote a paper
00:48:26.460 in 2010
00:48:27.240 saying by 2066
00:48:28.800 white British
00:48:29.920 will become an ethnic minority
00:48:31.160 now he based that
00:48:32.560 upon immigration figures
00:48:34.200 which were half
00:48:35.120 of what we're currently
00:48:36.200 experiencing
00:48:36.940 which by my calculation
00:48:38.140 means
00:48:38.520 at some point
00:48:39.180 in the 2050s
00:48:40.220 white British
00:48:41.160 are going to become
00:48:41.660 an ethnic minority
00:48:42.400 so at what point
00:48:44.380 how can you expect
00:48:45.540 people to integrate
00:48:46.420 into a society
00:48:47.460 when the indigenous population
00:48:49.240 is itself
00:48:50.180 an ethnic minority
00:48:51.180 you know
00:48:52.180 at what point
00:48:52.800 does Britain
00:48:53.420 stop becoming Britain
00:48:54.420 if Britain's only 30%
00:48:55.940 white British
00:48:56.600 is it still Britain
00:48:57.480 well what we're talking
00:48:59.340 about here
00:48:59.900 really is the obliteration
00:49:01.240 of a culture
00:49:01.780 aren't we
00:49:02.260 and if you
00:49:03.500 and if you don't have
00:49:05.280 a homogenous culture
00:49:06.540 then you don't have
00:49:07.520 a society
00:49:08.180 precisely
00:49:09.380 well that
00:49:09.780 that is the long march
00:49:10.900 for the institutions
00:49:11.600 it's all about
00:49:12.760 using minorities
00:49:14.440 be they ethnic minorities
00:49:15.640 be they gay
00:49:16.440 be they women
00:49:17.140 be they trans
00:49:18.060 using ethnic minorities
00:49:20.040 to advance
00:49:20.920 the
00:49:21.480 to advance the agenda
00:49:22.640 in a way
00:49:23.160 that the
00:49:23.700 proletariat
00:49:24.740 the working classes
00:49:25.500 never did
00:49:25.980 because the working classes
00:49:27.040 ended up being
00:49:28.540 small c conservatives
00:49:29.660 the same types
00:49:30.500 who voted in the red wall
00:49:31.600 for for
00:49:32.180 for Boris Johnson
00:49:33.380 you know
00:49:33.740 patriots
00:49:34.360 who still lean
00:49:35.600 who lean left
00:49:36.600 on economics
00:49:37.760 so it is
00:49:38.680 it is actually
00:49:39.400 a real issue
00:49:40.360 and are you hopeful
00:49:42.280 Rafe
00:49:42.720 looking at
00:49:43.580 the way things
00:49:45.280 are unfolding
00:49:45.880 do you think
00:49:46.600 there is a way
00:49:47.080 of turning this back
00:49:48.060 well with demographics
00:49:50.560 I don't know
00:49:51.280 I mean this is the
00:49:52.040 greatest challenge
00:49:52.680 you know
00:49:53.100 whenever I talk
00:49:54.040 about immigration
00:49:54.600 people say
00:49:55.380 oh well
00:49:56.200 how can you
00:49:56.640 of all people
00:49:57.080 be opposed
00:49:57.580 to all of this
00:49:58.420 and I will say
00:49:58.900 look there's a difference
00:49:59.480 between mass immigration
00:50:00.680 and immigration
00:50:01.560 right
00:50:02.080 so what we had
00:50:02.600 in the 80s and 90s
00:50:03.600 was 50,000 a year
00:50:04.820 and we had iconic
00:50:06.340 British role models
00:50:07.760 who were black
00:50:08.660 or Asian
00:50:09.160 right
00:50:09.340 you had Daley Thompson
00:50:10.300 you had
00:50:10.880 Tessa Sanders
00:50:11.700 and Linford Christie
00:50:12.600 you know
00:50:13.300 you had Freddie Mercury
00:50:14.340 nobody saw them
00:50:15.700 through the prism of race
00:50:16.820 they were all British
00:50:17.800 right
00:50:18.260 now everything
00:50:18.900 that we're seeing
00:50:19.440 is through the prism of race
00:50:20.340 and that's been
00:50:20.920 the most destructive
00:50:22.040 aspect of what we're seeing
00:50:23.680 right now
00:50:24.140 in our society
00:50:25.000 and the greatest tragedy
00:50:26.820 of the last 14 years
00:50:28.060 is that we've had
00:50:28.800 a conservative government
00:50:29.740 in place
00:50:30.280 who could have reversed
00:50:31.620 that long march
00:50:32.340 through the institutions
00:50:33.160 because you know
00:50:34.240 Tony Blair had 13 years
00:50:35.920 in which he was able
00:50:36.820 to unfurl his plan
00:50:38.580 for restructuring
00:50:39.380 and changing
00:50:40.220 the face of Britain
00:50:41.060 and remember
00:50:41.740 mass immigration
00:50:42.380 started under Tony Blair
00:50:44.220 and part of the reason
00:50:45.800 we know from
00:50:46.760 Andrew Neither
00:50:47.580 the former speech writer
00:50:48.580 to the immigration minister
00:50:49.580 was to rub the right's
00:50:51.060 nose in diversity
00:50:51.940 because of course
00:50:53.120 80% of ethnic minorities
00:50:54.740 tend to vote
00:50:55.340 for the Labour Party
00:50:56.200 and so the idea
00:50:57.260 of New Labour
00:50:58.260 was to you know
00:50:59.400 flood the nation
00:51:01.040 with a new
00:51:01.680 voting demographic
00:51:03.240 who would ensure
00:51:04.480 that in decades to come
00:51:05.500 they would be in charge
00:51:06.620 and if you look at
00:51:07.260 London and Birmingham
00:51:08.100 these are essentially
00:51:08.800 one party states
00:51:09.640 the great tragedy
00:51:10.620 is the Conservatives
00:51:12.440 put the pedal to the metal
00:51:13.560 right
00:51:14.140 they just continued
00:51:14.960 and accelerated
00:51:15.640 all of that
00:51:16.260 and we now have
00:51:18.500 a Labour government
00:51:19.240 in place right now
00:51:20.140 which is simply
00:51:20.660 going to continue
00:51:21.420 I don't think
00:51:21.820 you're going to see
00:51:22.220 any dramatic decline
00:51:23.200 in immigration
00:51:23.740 and unless that
00:51:24.820 is taken control of
00:51:26.020 I don't see any light
00:51:27.800 at the end of the tunnel
00:51:28.660 in terms of
00:51:29.460 the greater struggle
00:51:30.960 of Britain
00:51:31.460 I do think that
00:51:32.780 in terms of wokery
00:51:34.140 and the education system
00:51:35.360 I do think that
00:51:36.000 there is a way
00:51:36.500 that we can actually
00:51:37.440 see light at the end
00:51:38.900 of the tunnel
00:51:39.380 because of the fact
00:51:40.120 that you've got a lot
00:51:40.700 of socially conservative
00:51:41.520 people coming in
00:51:42.380 who are going to reject
00:51:43.840 a lot of the woke values
00:51:46.240 which are being spouted
00:51:47.380 that's why I think
00:51:47.980 there's a bit of a hope
00:51:48.580 on that side
00:51:49.160 but demographics
00:51:49.960 absolutely is the greatest
00:51:51.220 challenge of our day
00:51:52.340 just before we wrap up
00:51:54.620 coming back to the
00:51:55.500 history side of things
00:51:56.540 one of the things
00:51:57.440 I've never really understood
00:51:58.440 is why historians
00:51:59.440 have gone along with this
00:52:00.500 I remember
00:52:01.240 I read this brilliant book
00:52:03.300 I was staying with a friend
00:52:04.420 and I picked up a book
00:52:05.220 off the shelf
00:52:05.720 called The People's History
00:52:06.660 of Britain
00:52:07.060 I don't remember
00:52:07.760 the author's name
00:52:08.920 but it was a female author
00:52:10.240 and I read it
00:52:11.780 I swallowed it
00:52:12.540 inhaled it in a couple of days
00:52:13.900 it was fantastic
00:52:14.700 and I then was like
00:52:17.360 oh I want to read more of these
00:52:18.460 so I went online
00:52:19.380 and I bought a book
00:52:20.120 called The People's History
00:52:20.940 of America
00:52:22.260 or the United States
00:52:23.120 by a guy called Howard Zinn
00:52:24.280 and I read it for about
00:52:25.640 two chapters
00:52:26.680 and I wanted to
00:52:27.800 throw up in the bin
00:52:28.940 and I ended up
00:52:29.900 putting the book in the bin
00:52:30.800 because it was just
00:52:31.920 this one-sided
00:52:32.800 America is all evil
00:52:33.860 there was no balance
00:52:34.780 there was no attempt
00:52:36.060 to present any objective
00:52:38.400 view of history
00:52:39.280 but it seems to me
00:52:41.260 like historians
00:52:42.840 you said it yourself
00:52:43.860 you know history departments
00:52:45.060 at universities
00:52:45.700 are absolutely filled
00:52:46.920 with people who think
00:52:47.780 in this way
00:52:48.400 how's that happen
00:52:49.680 because historians
00:52:50.380 are supposed to be
00:52:50.920 the custodians of the past
00:52:52.240 aren't you
00:52:52.560 that's been
00:52:53.280 you know
00:52:53.840 the greatest tragedy
00:52:55.340 in my view
00:52:56.800 personally
00:52:57.320 in terms of my profession
00:52:59.060 is to see
00:53:00.220 ideology
00:53:01.120 trump
00:53:01.800 objective truth
00:53:03.000 and the scientific method
00:53:04.360 in history
00:53:05.420 and the reason for it
00:53:06.520 is quite clear
00:53:07.180 the left have always
00:53:08.360 been better
00:53:09.060 at capturing the levers
00:53:10.480 of power
00:53:11.180 so in academic terms
00:53:13.060 that means the bureaucracy
00:53:14.340 and the administration
00:53:15.340 so the left have been
00:53:16.940 able to get themselves
00:53:18.000 onto the heads of departments
00:53:20.220 chairing committees
00:53:21.380 and much as you see
00:53:22.860 in the BBC
00:53:23.480 there's an element
00:53:24.620 of subconscious
00:53:25.260 but unconscious bias
00:53:26.380 in the hiring practices
00:53:27.360 but also deliberate
00:53:28.900 efforts made
00:53:29.960 to ensure that
00:53:30.940 when you know
00:53:31.440 conservative historians
00:53:32.620 or more objective historians
00:53:34.060 retire
00:53:34.520 that they're not replaced
00:53:35.820 with like-minded people
00:53:38.240 but you've just basically
00:53:39.580 seen this gradual growth
00:53:40.960 in the
00:53:41.480 in the
00:53:41.920 and it's not just in
00:53:43.060 it's not just in universities
00:53:44.160 it's also in secondary schools
00:53:45.720 as well
00:53:46.080 we see the same thing happening
00:53:47.540 where you have 90% of teachers
00:53:48.880 voting for left-wing parties
00:53:50.200 when I was at school
00:53:51.340 you had you know
00:53:52.020 a number of
00:53:52.960 extremely right-wing teachers
00:53:54.640 some of them
00:53:55.460 were you know
00:53:55.940 just come out
00:53:56.460 had come out of the war
00:53:57.420 as well
00:53:57.800 so old war types
00:53:58.600 and they were the guys
00:53:59.220 who would throw the chalk duster
00:54:00.660 at you and so forth
00:54:01.780 they've all
00:54:02.640 they've all
00:54:03.080 they've all gone
00:54:03.700 so
00:54:04.780 and also you've got to remember
00:54:05.980 the publishing industry
00:54:06.820 is very different now as well
00:54:08.160 you simply can't get books
00:54:09.320 published by traditional
00:54:10.340 mainstream university
00:54:11.380 academic publishers
00:54:12.260 and historians tend to use
00:54:13.840 academic publishers
00:54:14.680 for many of their works
00:54:16.540 and they're simply
00:54:17.100 getting rejected
00:54:17.880 and so it's
00:54:18.880 and of course
00:54:19.500 career progression
00:54:20.240 if you want to get ahead
00:54:21.160 in the university foundations
00:54:23.220 you need to get
00:54:23.880 to keep your head down
00:54:24.840 because you're not going
00:54:25.600 to get those promotions
00:54:26.460 and you won't get tenure necessarily
00:54:28.740 Raph it's been
00:54:30.320 an absolute pleasure
00:54:31.100 although depressing
00:54:31.860 as conversations
00:54:33.420 about the state of this country
00:54:34.660 often are on our show
00:54:35.600 thank you so much
00:54:36.640 for coming on
00:54:37.260 before we head on over
00:54:38.960 to our locals
00:54:39.620 where our supporters
00:54:40.500 get to ask you
00:54:41.260 their questions
00:54:42.000 we always end with
00:54:42.980 the same question
00:54:43.580 which is what's the one thing
00:54:44.560 we're not talking about
00:54:45.660 that we really should be
00:54:46.520 before Raph answers
00:54:47.920 the final question
00:54:48.840 at the end of the interview
00:54:50.580 make sure to head on over
00:54:51.940 to our locals
00:54:52.680 the link is in the description
00:54:54.360 where you'll be able
00:54:55.580 to see this
00:54:56.520 do history majors
00:54:57.900 do history majors have a poor
00:54:58.480 understanding of history
00:54:59.480 these days
00:55:00.080 if you're a conservative
00:55:01.340 PR would be an absolute nightmare
00:55:03.300 do you agree with King Charles' plan
00:55:05.500 for a slimmed down monarchy
00:55:06.780 would you think
00:55:07.920 it would diminish
00:55:08.460 its popularity
00:55:09.260 in the world
00:55:10.320 like the other monarchies
00:55:11.320 of Europe
00:55:11.760 well I would love to say
00:55:14.500 culture and demographics
00:55:15.460 but we've just spoken
00:55:16.300 about that
00:55:16.940 so I would say
00:55:17.820 oh well
00:55:18.180 far be it from me
00:55:19.220 to quote Tony Blair
00:55:20.140 education
00:55:21.260 education
00:55:22.580 education
00:55:23.260 because we don't understand
00:55:26.920 that there is no hope
00:55:28.080 for any chance
00:55:29.240 of saving this nation
00:55:30.600 or at least
00:55:31.280 restoring it
00:55:32.120 to some sort of balance
00:55:33.100 if we don't tackle
00:55:34.660 the teaching profession
00:55:35.940 and you can change
00:55:37.840 the curriculum
00:55:38.320 as many times
00:55:39.080 as you want to
00:55:39.740 but if you don't
00:55:40.680 actually change
00:55:41.460 the cadre
00:55:42.680 and the type of person
00:55:43.880 who's teaching
00:55:44.480 there is no hope
00:55:45.620 because children learn
00:55:46.500 by osmosis
00:55:47.400 so yeah
00:55:48.200 and tackling universities
00:55:49.200 is fine
00:55:49.820 and there's too much focus
00:55:51.080 about universities
00:55:51.920 we need to tackle
00:55:52.920 primary schools
00:55:53.700 and so forth
00:55:54.160 as I say
00:55:54.680 you know
00:55:55.300 if the hair is blue
00:55:56.980 there's nothing you can do
00:55:58.140 right
00:55:58.480 you need to go
00:55:59.800 for the younger generation
00:56:00.920 Aristotle said
00:56:01.980 give me a boy of seven
00:56:03.040 and I will show you the man
00:56:04.500 we need to understand
00:56:05.440 that it's children
00:56:06.520 who are being indoctrinated
00:56:07.520 at a very young age
00:56:08.560 we need to bring in
00:56:09.840 we need to have channels
00:56:11.480 for teachers
00:56:12.080 to come in
00:56:12.580 from other areas
00:56:13.400 so there used to be
00:56:14.780 a programme
00:56:15.140 for troops
00:56:15.620 for teachers
00:56:16.240 getting soldiers
00:56:17.680 to come into
00:56:18.300 the teaching profession
00:56:19.240 getting people
00:56:19.960 from the corporate world
00:56:20.960 and by that means
00:56:22.160 you'll be able
00:56:22.640 to introduce
00:56:23.240 more balance
00:56:23.900 into the teaching profession
00:56:24.860 we don't have a right
00:56:25.580 with teaching profession
00:56:26.300 we simply want balance
00:56:27.920 Rafe
00:56:29.200 thank you so much
00:56:29.880 for coming on
00:56:30.400 head on over
00:56:30.980 to Locals Now
00:56:31.660 where we ask Rafe
00:56:32.500 your questions
00:56:33.420 what do you consider
00:56:36.340 the five most significant
00:56:37.560 historical events
00:56:38.540 that affected
00:56:39.040 the cultural development
00:56:40.100 of the British Isles
00:56:41.060 in the last millennia plus
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