TRIGGERnometry - ＂They're Lying About Your History＂ - Rafe Heydel-Mankoo

00:00:00.840 The way that British people now talk about their own history, 0.51

00:00:04.860 for anyone who's actually educated about history,

00:00:06.920 just seems completely absurd.

00:00:08.640 Why is it that it's only the British who are the bad guys? 1.00

00:00:11.800 I don't think there was ever before a case of a country

00:00:15.040 deliberately making itself poorer

00:00:17.300 in order to advance a moral objective for the greater good.

00:00:21.700 We've had decades of the gradual erosion of belief in nation,

00:00:26.460 belief in the family, belief in our history.

00:00:29.140 Not only the genius of the West,

00:00:31.800 but actually in the exceptionalism of the West.

00:00:35.460 Nothing has done more to lift the world out of poverty

00:00:37.820 than colonialism and capitalism.

00:00:40.400 And that's something you can't say today,

00:00:41.900 but that's the reality.

00:00:44.820 Rafe, so great to have you on.

00:00:46.920 We always love having historians on.

00:00:49.080 And with you in particular,

00:00:50.060 the thing we really wanted to discuss is

00:00:51.920 Francis and I both have always been interested in history

00:00:54.420 and we both have a slightly outsider perspective,

00:00:56.640 having lived in other countries.

00:00:57.860 And so the way that British people now talk about their own history,

00:01:03.080 for anyone who's actually educated about history,

00:01:05.180 just seems completely absurd.

00:01:07.140 And we were hoping that you could go through some of these myths

00:01:10.240 that we're all now being asked to believe with us

00:01:12.320 and just debunk them for us.

00:01:14.260 And what would you say are the things

00:01:15.560 that we're being lied to about the most?

00:01:17.960 Everything.

00:01:18.320 I mean, unfortunately, we're in a position now

00:01:21.100 where we've seen a complete capture

00:01:24.140 of our educational establishment by the left.

00:01:27.220 You know, I was just reading a report just a few days ago

00:01:29.500 where in American academics,

00:01:32.020 only 4% of historians are Republican voters,

00:01:35.700 if you can imagine that.

00:01:37.540 You know, I think only 1% of Harvard University now

00:01:41.280 have right-leaning academic professors in the humanities.

00:01:44.120 So we've seen something we've never seen before.

00:01:46.740 And as a result of that,

00:01:48.100 we've got, you know,

00:01:49.000 one or two generations of students

00:01:51.460 who have been raised with left-leaning views on history.

00:01:56.060 What does that mean, Raph?

00:01:56.880 What's a left...

00:01:57.440 Because, see, this is a thing I don't like

00:01:59.220 that we got into the politics of it straight away

00:02:01.660 because, to me,

00:02:02.900 I understand history isn't an objective science.

00:02:05.820 But I don't really care

00:02:07.560 if there's a lot of Republicans or Democrats.

00:02:10.400 I just want people teaching history,

00:02:13.140 broadly speaking, as it happened,

00:02:14.840 and then they can have their own view on it.

00:02:16.340 But we don't seem to have that.

00:02:17.620 It's almost impossible

00:02:18.480 to have pure objectivity in history.

00:02:20.600 The best you can hope for is a balance.

00:02:22.560 Okay.

00:02:23.000 And that's the point here.

00:02:24.300 No one wants to have the spectrum swing either way.

00:02:27.640 But when I was at university,

00:02:28.720 there was about a 2-1 balance.

00:02:30.560 There were two liberals

00:02:31.280 for every conservative in history.

00:02:32.700 So you knew where your historian professors stood

00:02:36.300 and you could basically evaluate on your own grounds.

00:02:39.680 But now there's no gauge.

00:02:40.800 There's no one else to go to

00:02:41.760 to get an alternative view on history.

00:02:44.420 And I think it's fundamentally important

00:02:46.120 because history is one of the key elements

00:02:49.240 that grounds a society and a people to place.

00:02:52.620 It fosters that sense of identity

00:02:54.440 and of belonging and of pride.

00:02:57.420 And if you undermine that,

00:02:59.020 then essentially you sever that connection

00:03:00.960 between people and place.

00:03:03.120 And at a time like today,

00:03:04.860 when you have globalization

00:03:05.880 and you have the threats that we see around us,

00:03:08.520 I think it's fundamentally important

00:03:10.060 that people have a notion

00:03:11.660 of who they are as a people.

00:03:13.140 And also that they are equipped

00:03:14.700 with the knowledge to be able

00:03:16.280 to identify the purveyors of false history,

00:03:19.780 to identify history

00:03:21.440 that they can quite clearly see

00:03:22.840 is either fake or biased.

00:03:25.020 And I'm afraid because of our education system

00:03:27.500 where children now leave school

00:03:28.940 at the age of 14,

00:03:29.980 I mean,

00:03:30.780 where they stopped learning history

00:03:31.820 at the age of 14,

00:03:32.900 they simply don't have the necessary skills

00:03:35.580 or knowledge

00:03:36.280 to be able to identify bad history.

00:03:40.460 And that's why we're seeing

00:03:41.180 the perpetuation of all these myths.

00:03:43.120 And so it's very easy

00:03:44.240 to hoodwink people

00:03:45.860 about, say,

00:03:46.620 the evils of Winston Churchill

00:03:48.120 or Britain's role in slavery

00:03:50.100 or the exclusively bad side of colonialism

00:03:53.640 if people simply don't have

00:03:55.360 the knowledge and skill set

00:03:56.540 to be able to rationally evaluate

00:03:58.980 what they're being told.

00:04:00.560 So if by some miracle

00:04:01.980 one of these 14-year-olds

00:04:03.700 is tuned in

00:04:04.560 and they're watching

00:04:05.320 or listening to this,

00:04:07.080 what can you give them

00:04:08.660 as a kind of methodology

00:04:10.920 to look at Britain

00:04:12.540 and the West more broadly

00:04:14.120 and its history

00:04:14.880 and go,

00:04:15.880 this is how I put these things

00:04:17.060 into perspective,

00:04:17.960 this is how I balance things up?

00:04:19.380 What should be the core things

00:04:21.180 that people should know?

00:04:22.840 Well,

00:04:23.500 if they are very, very scholarly,

00:04:25.480 they should read

00:04:26.040 the primary sources.

00:04:27.300 I mean,

00:04:27.400 that's the best way.

00:04:28.200 If you want to have

00:04:28.880 an unbiased,

00:04:30.140 unvarnished approach to history,

00:04:32.160 always go back

00:04:32.960 and read original sources

00:04:34.180 or read memoirs,

00:04:36.000 read autobiographies

00:04:36.920 if it comes to that

00:04:37.700 about people.

00:04:39.000 But read as much as you can

00:04:40.720 but also try as much as you can

00:04:42.880 to search out on the internet

00:04:44.900 things like the History Reclaimed website.

00:04:47.960 I know you've had Andrew Roberts

00:04:49.100 on your show recently

00:04:50.140 but Nigel Bigger is on there,

00:04:52.040 Niall Ferguson.

00:04:53.680 Not just to exclusively read that

00:04:55.440 but read that in the context

00:04:57.040 of what else you've read

00:04:58.060 and what else you've been taught

00:04:59.140 on the left

00:04:59.580 and I think only by viewing

00:05:00.820 both sides of the argument

00:05:02.160 can you hope to come somewhere

00:05:03.520 near to the accurate record.

00:05:05.120 Rafe,

00:05:07.000 so we've spoken

00:05:08.620 and we've touched

00:05:09.680 around the subject

00:05:10.780 of myths

00:05:12.040 and whatever else.

00:05:13.080 What are these myths

00:05:14.340 that we are being told

00:05:15.460 and that we've been asked

00:05:16.660 to swallow

00:05:17.140 as a population?

00:05:18.960 Well,

00:05:19.260 myths is a good term to use 0.94

00:05:20.720 because all societies

00:05:21.900 have their foundational myths,

00:05:23.640 right?

00:05:24.000 So,

00:05:24.400 for example,

00:05:25.480 you know,

00:05:25.680 we're in London,

00:05:26.420 well,

00:05:26.580 I live in London

00:05:27.280 that was supposedly founded

00:05:28.740 by King Ludd

00:05:30.540 after defeating the giants

00:05:32.320 of Gog and Magog

00:05:33.360 and,

00:05:33.700 you know,

00:05:33.820 that linked us

00:05:34.460 to the classical world

00:05:35.440 when you had the idea

00:05:36.200 of Brutus of Troy

00:05:37.080 coming over.

00:05:38.080 So those myths,

00:05:38.800 you know,

00:05:39.080 provide an important

00:05:40.520 sort of narrative

00:05:41.380 and a fantasy story

00:05:42.860 that gives a romance 0.95

00:05:44.720 to history.

00:05:45.640 What we're seeing now

00:05:46.360 are new myths

00:05:46.960 being created.

00:05:47.980 So you have Sadiq Khan

00:05:49.100 saying that London

00:05:50.360 was built by immigrants,

00:05:51.920 right?

00:05:52.160 Complete nonsense

00:05:53.160 given the fact

00:05:53.840 that immigrants 1.00

00:05:54.380 only started to arrive here

00:05:55.500 in the post-war period

00:05:57.080 apart from the Irish,

00:05:58.400 but the Irish are part

00:05:59.400 of the British Isles.

00:06:01.320 You had,

00:06:01.960 you know,

00:06:02.580 Rishi Sunak

00:06:03.720 producing a 50-pence coin

00:06:05.220 saying diversity

00:06:06.040 built Britain.

00:06:07.000 Again,

00:06:07.400 completely factually

00:06:08.220 inaccurate

00:06:08.680 to state that.

00:06:10.100 You've got now

00:06:10.800 BBC,

00:06:11.860 for example,

00:06:13.140 putting out this book

00:06:14.120 Horrible Histories

00:06:15.020 that claims that 0.93

00:06:16.100 black sub-Saharan Africans

00:06:18.280 have been present

00:06:19.060 in Britain

00:06:19.480 for a millennia.

00:06:20.740 You have

00:06:21.260 The Guardian

00:06:22.060 claiming that

00:06:22.840 Roman emperors 0.94

00:06:23.520 were black. 0.98

00:06:24.120 You know, 0.95

00:06:24.200 these are the myths

00:06:24.820 that we're being told

00:06:25.660 that Nelson

00:06:26.480 was in favour

00:06:27.980 of slavery

00:06:28.620 on the basis

00:06:29.480 of one single letter

00:06:30.700 which has now proved

00:06:31.680 to have been edited

00:06:32.960 after his death.

00:06:34.680 And, of course,

00:06:35.520 you know,

00:06:35.820 you have the war

00:06:37.400 and the attack

00:06:38.080 on essentially

00:06:38.820 every single hero

00:06:40.780 that symbolises,

00:06:41.820 in my view,

00:06:42.520 the great maverick spirit

00:06:43.800 of the British.

00:06:44.620 So, you know,

00:06:44.980 be it Nelson,

00:06:45.700 be it Drake,

00:06:46.360 be it Churchill.

00:06:47.460 These are the myths.

00:06:48.440 The myths that we have

00:06:49.540 in our society today

00:06:51.080 are targeted merely

00:06:52.500 at, really,

00:06:53.520 at undermining,

00:06:55.240 I think,

00:06:55.780 the foundations

00:06:56.920 for Britain's pride

00:06:58.620 in itself,

00:06:59.300 in its accomplishments

00:07:00.080 and its achievements

00:07:01.460 and in the heroism

00:07:02.560 of its figures.

00:07:03.780 But we also have

00:07:04.920 to acknowledge,

00:07:05.640 for instance,

00:07:06.160 everyone can take a drink,

00:07:07.000 my mother's Venezuelan,

00:07:08.540 and the way that people

00:07:09.600 in South America

00:07:10.440 look at Francis Drake

00:07:11.780 isn't particularly favourable.

00:07:14.660 So there's two signs

00:07:15.820 if we're being fair.

00:07:16.700 With Drake,

00:07:17.520 there certainly is,

00:07:18.340 but there's the idea

00:07:19.060 that there are

00:07:19.540 no redeeming qualities.

00:07:20.900 You know,

00:07:21.000 you can call it

00:07:23.280 generational chauvinism,

00:07:25.740 the idea that we're going

00:07:26.940 to judge everyone

00:07:27.680 in the past

00:07:28.280 by today's standards.

00:07:29.640 Now,

00:07:29.960 some people come out

00:07:30.740 better of that.

00:07:31.240 Drake is not one

00:07:31.860 of the most enlightened

00:07:33.160 figures,

00:07:33.680 even by his own time.

00:07:34.740 But there's certainly

00:07:35.420 a lot to admire

00:07:36.100 about the man,

00:07:36.740 especially when you

00:07:37.240 consider him

00:07:37.740 within the context

00:07:38.520 of his time.

00:07:39.680 And also,

00:07:40.700 as well,

00:07:40.960 the thing that I find

00:07:41.860 particularly frustrating,

00:07:43.080 Rafe,

00:07:43.320 is Venezuelan mother,

00:07:46.020 and we talk about

00:07:46.840 colonialism,

00:07:47.560 and it seems to be

00:07:48.260 the British

00:07:48.800 are the only ones

00:07:49.980 who did this.

00:07:52.880 They were the only ones

00:07:54.040 who participated

00:07:54.960 in the slave trade.

00:07:56.520 And you look at

00:07:57.080 the Spanish,

00:07:57.700 what the Spanish

00:07:58.280 did in South America,

00:07:59.460 which is brutal,

00:08:01.020 awful,

00:08:01.320 and horrific.

00:08:01.740 And I studied it,

00:08:03.220 and I was taught it

00:08:04.320 because of my family

00:08:05.320 and whatever else.

00:08:06.180 And then you look

00:08:06.760 at the trans-Saharan

00:08:08.560 slave trade,

00:08:09.660 you know,

00:08:09.840 the Ottoman Empire.

00:08:11.280 Why is it that it's

00:08:12.520 only the British 0.77

00:08:13.380 who are the bad guys? 0.82

00:08:14.660 Yeah,

00:08:14.920 well,

00:08:15.120 that's why we know

00:08:16.180 that this actually

00:08:16.840 isn't about colonialism.

00:08:18.480 This isn't about slavery.

00:08:19.840 If it was,

00:08:20.740 we would have

00:08:21.300 exactly the points

00:08:22.040 that you're being made,

00:08:23.260 made by the activists

00:08:24.820 who are so keen

00:08:25.620 to undermine

00:08:26.200 Britain's role

00:08:27.200 in history.

00:08:28.380 And I think that's why

00:08:29.280 what we're seeing here

00:08:29.960 is a much larger attack

00:08:31.180 on Britain

00:08:31.820 and America as well.

00:08:33.940 Because, of course,

00:08:34.740 slavery is universal,

00:08:36.160 right?

00:08:36.400 And slavery is millennia,

00:08:38.200 thousands of years old,

00:08:40.440 as is slavery.

00:08:42.400 And, of course,

00:08:43.000 if you look around the world,

00:08:44.100 I think the British Empire,

00:08:45.260 of course,

00:08:45.500 is far from perfect,

00:08:46.580 you know?

00:08:46.740 And I always have to sort of

00:08:47.700 make one of those

00:08:48.540 qualifying statements,

00:08:49.480 much like when you have

00:08:50.180 Microsoft saying,

00:08:51.280 I acknowledge that I'm

00:08:52.100 standing on the land

00:08:52.880 of the Iroquois,

00:08:53.800 I have to say,

00:08:54.780 I acknowledge that

00:08:55.580 the British Empire

00:08:56.220 did bad things,

00:08:57.340 right?

00:08:57.460 No one is denying that.

00:08:58.500 But we all know that

00:08:59.320 because we hear that

00:09:00.120 every single day.

00:09:01.200 So we don't need

00:09:01.840 to go on about that.

00:09:02.940 But the fact is,

00:09:03.680 no empire in history

00:09:04.760 has been as benign

00:09:05.960 as the British Empire.

00:09:07.320 What's remarkable

00:09:07.940 is that Britain was able

00:09:09.020 to maintain its empire

00:09:10.480 with the most minimal

00:09:11.960 military presence

00:09:13.260 in those countries.

00:09:14.220 And it did that

00:09:14.860 through various means,

00:09:16.180 you know,

00:09:16.360 and it allied with

00:09:17.420 the Indian princes

00:09:18.140 in India, for example.

00:09:19.660 But if you, you know,

00:09:20.420 just compare it

00:09:21.120 to what the Spanish did, 0.83

00:09:22.280 what the Portuguese did, 0.97

00:09:23.520 certainly what the Belgians

00:09:24.600 and the Germans did,

00:09:25.880 the British Empire

00:09:26.540 comes off hugely well.

00:09:28.220 And you just have to

00:09:29.120 contrast, for example,

00:09:30.180 what happened

00:09:30.820 when the Soviet Union

00:09:32.040 collapsed, you know,

00:09:32.820 because the Soviet Union

00:09:33.660 was an empire.

00:09:34.900 Well, Poland and Hungary 0.93

00:09:36.060 and Romania and Bulgaria

00:09:38.220 fed as fast as they could,

00:09:40.180 you know, to the West,

00:09:41.240 trying to get into the EU,

00:09:42.560 trying to get into NATO

00:09:43.560 and so forth.

00:09:44.500 Contrast that

00:09:45.140 with the British Empire.

00:09:46.700 When the British Empire

00:09:47.540 voluntarily gave independence

00:09:49.100 to its colonies,

00:09:50.900 they decided to come back

00:09:52.140 together again

00:09:52.780 in voluntary association

00:09:54.040 in the shape

00:09:54.580 of the Commonwealth.

00:09:55.580 That's not something

00:09:56.440 you do when you are

00:09:57.440 under the yoke

00:09:58.160 of an evil empire.

00:09:59.760 And people like,

00:10:00.660 you know, Jinnah,

00:10:01.480 the first leader of Pakistan,

00:10:03.320 Nehru,

00:10:03.660 the first leader of India,

00:10:05.060 they didn't want to overthrow

00:10:06.260 the imperial yoke.

00:10:07.380 They didn't want to get rid

00:10:08.340 of the institutions

00:10:09.180 and the structures

00:10:10.020 that the British Empire

00:10:10.840 had brought into those countries.

00:10:12.440 They simply wanted

00:10:13.140 to run them themselves.

00:10:14.540 But they respected

00:10:15.720 the inheritance

00:10:16.580 that they had.

00:10:17.620 And wherever you go

00:10:18.420 in the world,

00:10:19.040 in whatever region

00:10:19.760 of the world you go to,

00:10:21.080 those countries

00:10:21.880 that were former

00:10:22.620 British colonies

00:10:23.420 are the ones

00:10:24.220 that are most likely

00:10:25.040 to be wealthy,

00:10:26.680 stable,

00:10:27.440 and democratic.

00:10:28.520 And that's a great asset.

00:10:29.720 And in fact,

00:10:30.220 it's the legacy

00:10:30.900 of the British Empire

00:10:31.980 that has enabled

00:10:33.100 many of these colonies

00:10:34.080 to become global players.

00:10:36.080 You know,

00:10:36.300 the English language,

00:10:37.720 the common law,

00:10:39.500 the infrastructure

00:10:40.480 of the civil service,

00:10:42.200 of the military,

00:10:43.020 of the police,

00:10:44.280 you know,

00:10:44.460 the hospitals

00:10:44.980 that were built there

00:10:45.800 by the British.

00:10:46.760 There are so many

00:10:47.480 good things

00:10:48.240 that were done

00:10:48.700 by colonialism.

00:10:49.420 I often say

00:10:50.200 that colonialism

00:10:50.840 and capitalism,

00:10:51.980 for all of their ills,

00:10:53.200 nothing has done more

00:10:54.160 to lift the world

00:10:54.880 out of poverty

00:10:55.560 than colonialism

00:10:56.640 and capitalism.

00:10:58.140 Now,

00:10:58.260 that's something

00:10:58.600 you can't say today,

00:10:59.640 but that's the reality.

00:11:01.100 And why can't you say it?

00:11:04.140 Why can't we have

00:11:05.560 this very sane,

00:11:07.280 sensible,

00:11:08.000 rational discussion

00:11:08.960 where we go,

00:11:09.640 look,

00:11:10.100 as you've pointed out yourself,

00:11:12.160 there are goods

00:11:12.820 and there are bads,

00:11:14.380 there are positives

00:11:15.080 and there are negatives.

00:11:16.620 And that is how life works.

00:11:19.180 Because I think

00:11:20.180 we need to understand

00:11:21.200 that we are now living

00:11:22.200 in a post-revolutionary society.

00:11:25.060 This is what I keep

00:11:25.720 trying to explain to people.

00:11:27.360 The revolution

00:11:27.880 has already happened.

00:11:29.080 We are now

00:11:29.820 the underground resistance.

00:11:31.600 That's why we're able

00:11:32.340 to have these conversations

00:11:33.280 only on places

00:11:34.500 like YouTube

00:11:35.180 and so forth,

00:11:35.920 right?

00:11:36.060 We have become

00:11:36.880 the new revolutionaries,

00:11:39.220 if I can put it that way.

00:11:40.320 You don't need to fly

00:11:41.420 red flags from rooftops

00:11:43.140 to have a revolution

00:11:44.040 and have mobs in the streets.

00:11:45.400 We've had this long march

00:11:46.580 through the institutions.

00:11:48.420 The buildings still stand there,

00:11:51.080 but the people who inhabit them

00:11:52.400 are cuckoos in the nest

00:11:53.480 who bear no comparison

00:11:55.560 or connection

00:11:56.260 to the generations

00:11:57.160 who built those institutions.

00:11:59.160 And so we have this inverted

00:12:01.000 or subverted ideology now

00:12:02.860 which views any presence

00:12:05.320 of Britain around the world

00:12:06.540 as being necessarily evil

00:12:08.120 because it advances

00:12:09.140 what I would regard

00:12:10.120 as a Marxist agenda.

00:12:13.540 I call woke American Marxism

00:12:15.260 and Britain has succumbed

00:12:17.080 to this American

00:12:18.140 woke mind virus

00:12:20.100 which I think

00:12:20.720 is a virus transmitted

00:12:21.660 by the English language

00:12:22.720 which is why it's more present

00:12:23.820 in the Anglosphere

00:12:24.740 and in Scandinavia

00:12:26.220 which of course

00:12:26.880 they're all bilingual there

00:12:28.200 and in the Netherlands.

00:12:29.460 But that's why

00:12:29.940 we can't have this discussion.

00:12:32.100 But I think it's also important

00:12:33.280 to, you know,

00:12:34.060 I want to expand a bit more

00:12:35.420 on this whole role

00:12:36.440 of the British Empire globally.

00:12:37.880 I mean, you know,

00:12:39.040 slavery was also universal.

00:12:42.020 What was unique

00:12:43.020 to Britain

00:12:43.680 and Western Europe

00:12:45.140 was the Evangelical Christian movement

00:12:47.520 that engulfed

00:12:49.100 the British Empire

00:12:49.940 and the British Empire

00:12:51.040 spent the second half

00:12:52.360 of its history

00:12:53.180 atoning for the sins

00:12:54.800 of the first half.

00:12:56.040 and it expended a sum equivalent

00:12:58.460 to 2% of GDP

00:13:00.360 on the West Africa squadron

00:13:02.580 which was the Royal Navy force

00:13:04.320 trying to enforce an end

00:13:05.540 to the global slave trade

00:13:06.680 on the Atlantic.

00:13:07.760 Now, I don't think

00:13:08.440 there was ever before

00:13:09.760 a case of a country

00:13:11.200 deliberately making itself poorer

00:13:13.460 in order to advance

00:13:15.200 a moral objective

00:13:16.120 for the greater good.

00:13:17.600 And I think that's something

00:13:18.540 that everybody in Britain

00:13:19.720 should be hugely

00:13:20.780 and supremely proud of.

00:13:22.040 So, just finally

00:13:23.980 because if you say the words

00:13:26.120 I remember

00:13:26.880 so my grandfather

00:13:27.780 when he was a doctor

00:13:29.080 and when he retired

00:13:29.640 he became a historian

00:13:30.500 and I remember my grandfather

00:13:32.480 Venezuelan grandfather

00:13:33.860 teaching me about

00:13:34.880 William Wilberforce

00:13:35.900 and we went to a place

00:13:37.820 at one of his houses

00:13:38.760 that he lived in

00:13:39.620 Wimbledon

00:13:40.880 because there was a blue plaque

00:13:41.960 and my grandfather

00:13:42.660 wrote a book about the blue plaques

00:13:43.980 and he explained to me

00:13:45.100 all about William Wilberforce

00:13:46.220 what he did

00:13:46.920 why he wanted to achieve

00:13:48.860 what he wanted to achieve

00:13:49.840 to abolish slavery.

00:13:50.820 But I guarantee you

00:13:52.620 that if you went down the road

00:13:54.160 where we are

00:13:55.240 or in central London

00:13:56.340 or even if you went

00:13:57.740 to some of these

00:13:58.640 hallowed institutions

00:13:59.600 these universities

00:14:00.460 and you asked the kids

00:14:01.840 who's William Wilberforce

00:14:03.580 I doubt they would be able

00:14:04.580 to tell you who he is.

00:14:06.060 Well I know that for a fact

00:14:07.040 because I've encountered

00:14:07.940 these students

00:14:08.720 and I've spoken

00:14:09.680 in university settings

00:14:10.800 and what I tried to do

00:14:12.180 is you know

00:14:12.640 I tried simply to present facts

00:14:14.680 when I give a public speech

00:14:15.960 or a debate

00:14:16.460 because I think

00:14:17.100 too often

00:14:17.860 people get polarised

00:14:19.180 with too much opinion

00:14:20.120 on hot air

00:14:20.920 and I always think

00:14:21.620 the best way

00:14:22.440 to win an argument

00:14:23.500 or to present

00:14:24.020 is to simply present

00:14:24.780 the cold facts

00:14:25.640 which hopefully

00:14:26.560 you can't debate

00:14:27.580 but I found very

00:14:28.900 what I found very frustrating

00:14:30.320 is nowadays

00:14:31.360 I mean

00:14:31.740 I did a debate

00:14:33.040 at a university recently

00:14:34.000 where I hadn't been

00:14:34.520 for seven years

00:14:35.380 and in the space

00:14:36.260 of that seven years

00:14:36.980 I could see

00:14:37.420 a noticeable decline

00:14:38.660 in the tolerance

00:14:40.920 and attention spans

00:14:42.140 of the students

00:14:42.800 I was speaking to

00:14:43.720 and literally

00:14:44.760 you know

00:14:45.060 we hear about

00:14:45.840 jaw-dropping moments

00:14:46.760 so I literally

00:14:47.360 saw people's jaws

00:14:48.360 dropping open

00:14:49.340 when I told them

00:14:50.620 that you know

00:14:52.280 there were more Africans

00:14:53.360 held in bondage

00:14:54.460 in Africa

00:14:55.100 than were ever transported

00:14:56.320 over the Atlantic

00:14:57.180 they simply couldn't

00:14:58.040 comprehend that

00:14:58.780 when I explained to them

00:15:00.080 that no Europeans 1.00

00:15:01.360 enslaved Africans 1.00

00:15:02.620 Africans were enslaved

00:15:04.040 by other Africans

00:15:05.220 Europeans simply

00:15:06.640 moored their ships

00:15:07.540 off of the coast

00:15:08.280 of West Africa

00:15:09.080 and went to the slave markets

00:15:10.680 on the coast

00:15:11.380 that's where they came from

00:15:12.360 you know

00:15:13.000 if I explained to them

00:15:14.200 that the Islamic slave trade

00:15:15.480 carried on for centuries

00:15:17.560 before the arrival

00:15:18.600 of the British

00:15:19.080 and the French

00:15:19.780 and it carried on

00:15:20.560 well into the 20th century

00:15:22.000 with the British

00:15:22.600 and French

00:15:22.980 trying to expunge it

00:15:24.620 and the biggest opponents

00:15:26.000 one of the biggest opponents

00:15:27.000 of the end to slavery

00:15:28.460 were Africans themselves

00:15:29.860 who the British

00:15:30.560 had to try to force

00:15:31.500 to abolish slavery

00:15:32.940 and indeed

00:15:33.920 the existence of slavery today

00:15:36.080 you know

00:15:36.480 where the International

00:15:37.200 Labour Organization

00:15:38.060 says that seven

00:15:39.020 in every 1,000 Africans

00:15:40.540 today is a slave

00:15:41.660 that's 10 million people

00:15:43.600 CNN reported

00:15:45.080 hundreds of slaves

00:15:46.520 are sold every week

00:15:47.600 in Libya

00:15:48.080 and the kids

00:15:50.440 simply couldn't

00:15:51.320 accept this

00:15:52.120 and it's because

00:15:52.920 of the fact

00:15:53.760 that they're being taught

00:15:54.820 a very very narrow

00:15:56.140 and biased view

00:15:57.100 of history

00:15:57.620 and I would have

00:15:58.660 much more time

00:15:59.560 for these academics

00:16:00.660 who are spouting 0.95

00:16:01.480 this nonsense

00:16:02.200 about Britain

00:16:02.840 and the slave trade

00:16:03.740 if they were equally vocal

00:16:05.440 about what I've just said

00:16:06.900 if they were actually

00:16:07.960 protesting outside

00:16:09.080 you know

00:16:09.540 high commissions

00:16:10.260 and embassies

00:16:10.960 around the world

00:16:11.700 you know

00:16:12.000 Cameroon has

00:16:12.620 800,000 slaves

00:16:13.920 Niger 0.99

00:16:14.580 Nigeria

00:16:15.840 Mali

00:16:16.560 Mozambique

00:16:17.660 and yet

00:16:18.240 they're silent

00:16:18.780 about that

00:16:19.340 and you would have

00:16:19.960 thought

00:16:20.260 that the lives

00:16:21.660 and the plights

00:16:22.360 of people alive today

00:16:23.460 is far more important

00:16:24.640 than worrying

00:16:25.340 about the historic

00:16:26.980 slavery

00:16:27.480 which happened

00:16:28.080 eight generations ago

00:16:29.560 Rafe

00:16:30.540 one of the questions

00:16:31.300 I want to ask you

00:16:31.960 because you're talking

00:16:33.120 about something

00:16:33.840 obviously we've heard

00:16:34.460 lots of people say

00:16:35.240 which is that

00:16:36.120 there's been a takeover

00:16:38.100 of the institutions

00:16:38.900 and I guess the question is

00:16:40.700 why is there an appetite

00:16:42.380 for that particular message

00:16:43.900 because as a historian

00:16:45.920 I'm sure you appreciate

00:16:47.080 that certain ideas

00:16:48.540 come about

00:16:49.280 for there are reasons

00:16:51.040 that certain ideas

00:16:51.960 take over

00:16:52.560 it's not just

00:16:53.120 you couldn't just

00:16:54.080 take over an institution

00:16:55.660 and spread a completely

00:16:56.800 alien ideology

00:16:57.760 that would instantly

00:16:58.440 be accepted

00:16:59.120 there must be something

00:17:00.420 about the current moment

00:17:02.440 whether it's technology

00:17:03.640 whether it's our prosperity

00:17:05.080 whether it's a lack

00:17:06.200 of threat

00:17:06.620 whatever it is

00:17:07.840 that's causing people

00:17:09.300 to be receptive

00:17:11.020 to the message

00:17:11.820 of self-hatred

00:17:13.540 or whatever

00:17:13.940 however you might

00:17:14.740 describe it

00:17:15.440 well it certainly

00:17:16.860 it certainly is

00:17:17.500 all of those things

00:17:18.200 but I actually think

00:17:19.040 that there has been

00:17:19.880 a long march

00:17:21.040 which has been decades

00:17:22.160 in the making

00:17:22.920 and the whole idea

00:17:24.360 behind the long march

00:17:25.400 for the institutions

00:17:26.360 was essentially

00:17:27.340 a realization

00:17:28.040 that Western Europe

00:17:29.820 and America

00:17:30.540 weren't civilizations

00:17:32.180 that were going to

00:17:33.320 overnight

00:17:33.860 become radically

00:17:34.980 left-wing

00:17:35.820 you know

00:17:37.160 you had Antonio Gramsci

00:17:39.340 of course

00:17:39.760 who went to the Soviet Union

00:17:40.820 in the 1920s

00:17:41.980 and he realized

00:17:42.540 that the economic model

00:17:43.600 of communism

00:17:45.720 wasn't going to be

00:17:46.960 a success in the West

00:17:48.060 you know

00:17:48.800 they were expecting

00:17:49.660 the communist revolution

00:17:51.160 to happen

00:17:51.640 in industrialized countries

00:17:52.900 it happened in feudal states

00:17:54.140 like China 0.66

00:17:54.760 and Russia

00:17:55.760 and there was

00:17:56.880 a sudden realization

00:17:57.820 that there needed

00:17:58.520 to be another way

00:17:59.460 to do this

00:18:00.100 and that was

00:18:00.580 to very gradually

00:18:01.380 and slightly

00:18:01.980 and slowly

00:18:02.660 push that sort of

00:18:03.640 over the window

00:18:04.380 to change the reality

00:18:06.080 and the perception

00:18:06.640 of reality

00:18:07.340 very gradually

00:18:08.420 over time

00:18:09.280 you know

00:18:09.820 in 1968

00:18:10.520 you had

00:18:11.100 Ruder Deutschka

00:18:12.040 coined this phrase

00:18:12.760 the long march

00:18:13.320 for the institutions

00:18:14.060 and he did that

00:18:14.680 deliberately

00:18:15.100 because at the same time

00:18:16.260 in America

00:18:17.140 you had the new left

00:18:18.700 which were radical

00:18:20.200 extremist leftists

00:18:21.600 who wanted to have

00:18:22.500 an immediate revolution

00:18:23.880 they wanted terrorist

00:18:24.740 activities and so forth

00:18:26.060 to try to create

00:18:27.220 this nirvana

00:18:28.440 this leftist Valhalla

00:18:29.460 and he understood

00:18:31.820 that if you were going

00:18:33.120 to achieve that

00:18:33.880 you needed to do so

00:18:34.960 in a very gradual process

00:18:36.720 almost imperceptibly

00:18:37.780 and I think that's why

00:18:39.140 we've suddenly come

00:18:40.140 to this position

00:18:40.920 you know

00:18:42.860 I call it American Marxism

00:18:45.180 because of course

00:18:45.900 it was a creation

00:18:47.580 of the Frankfurt School

00:18:49.480 Herbert Marcuse

00:18:50.440 and others

00:18:51.060 who came to America

00:18:52.700 after the Second World War

00:18:53.940 and laid the foundations

00:18:55.180 for this

00:18:55.620 to take over

00:18:56.380 the cultural

00:18:58.000 and intellectual

00:18:58.900 means of production

00:18:59.860 if I can put it that way

00:19:00.860 so in essence

00:19:01.740 to take over

00:19:02.400 the institutions

00:19:03.180 of museums

00:19:04.840 galleries

00:19:05.400 and so forth

00:19:06.140 but also

00:19:06.780 of academia

00:19:08.380 and so I think

00:19:09.580 you've seen this pendulum

00:19:10.580 swinging so slightly

00:19:11.640 over the years

00:19:13.620 that now

00:19:14.520 everything is ripe

00:19:15.580 for this

00:19:16.020 for what we're seeing

00:19:16.760 the plan being put

00:19:17.740 into action

00:19:18.380 you know

00:19:18.980 in 1984

00:19:19.920 there was a chap

00:19:21.300 called Besbinov

00:19:22.020 you must know

00:19:23.100 or Yuri Besbinov

00:19:23.900 who came over

00:19:24.500 and talked about

00:19:25.140 the four stages

00:19:25.980 of taking over

00:19:27.080 a society

00:19:27.720 demoralization

00:19:29.040 destabilization

00:19:30.560 creating a crisis

00:19:31.680 and then normalizing

00:19:32.580 the new ideology

00:19:33.460 well we've had

00:19:34.380 this demoralization

00:19:35.760 has been going on

00:19:36.580 for a huge amount

00:19:37.520 of time

00:19:37.980 he said that

00:19:38.960 it takes one generation

00:19:40.140 25 years

00:19:41.140 to demoralize

00:19:41.940 the youth

00:19:43.100 of a country

00:19:43.680 in essence

00:19:44.580 to bombard them

00:19:45.600 with so much

00:19:46.120 untruth

00:19:46.780 that they become

00:19:47.800 it becomes impossible

00:19:49.120 for them

00:19:49.460 to actually

00:19:50.260 discern truth

00:19:51.940 from fiction

00:19:53.100 so you could

00:19:53.660 take them

00:19:54.060 to the gulags

00:19:54.760 in the Soviet Union

00:19:55.600 and despite

00:19:56.780 seeing the clear

00:19:57.580 evidence of their own eyes

00:19:58.520 they wouldn't believe it

00:19:59.520 so I think

00:20:00.520 the reason for

00:20:01.600 the situation

00:20:02.320 that we're in today

00:20:02.880 is because

00:20:03.380 we've had

00:20:04.020 decades

00:20:04.980 of the gradual

00:20:05.960 erosion

00:20:06.580 of belief

00:20:07.300 in nation

00:20:08.000 belief in the family

00:20:09.440 belief in our history

00:20:10.880 and belief

00:20:11.940 in the

00:20:12.380 not only

00:20:13.500 the genius

00:20:14.520 of the West

00:20:15.180 but actually

00:20:15.780 in the

00:20:16.540 exceptionalism

00:20:17.620 of the West

00:20:18.200 and what is

00:20:19.200 the genius

00:20:19.680 of the West

00:20:20.200 what makes

00:20:20.700 the West

00:20:21.200 exceptional

00:20:21.640 in your view

00:20:22.320 well it's fascinating

00:20:24.000 that requires

00:20:24.880 another hour long

00:20:25.660 discussion actually

00:20:26.460 because

00:20:26.860 you know

00:20:27.460 the Western

00:20:28.520 mind is actually

00:20:29.820 different to

00:20:30.680 the non-Western 0.78

00:20:31.580 mind

00:20:31.900 the Occidental

00:20:32.820 mind

00:20:33.320 you know

00:20:33.660 on many different

00:20:34.440 levels

00:20:34.700 the genius

00:20:35.220 of the West

00:20:35.740 comes down

00:20:37.240 to the fact

00:20:37.820 that Westerners

00:20:39.680 view the world

00:20:40.580 differently

00:20:41.220 I mean

00:20:41.600 you can

00:20:41.900 you know

00:20:42.220 there's a chap

00:20:42.700 called Joseph Heinrich

00:20:43.580 who's written a book

00:20:44.460 about this

00:20:44.920 the weirdest people

00:20:45.700 in the world

00:20:46.220 weird means

00:20:46.840 Western educated

00:20:48.160 industrial rich

00:20:49.300 and developed

00:20:50.540 and so for example

00:20:52.080 Westerners

00:20:53.240 or weird society

00:20:54.200 people

00:20:54.620 can't

00:20:55.060 have very bad

00:20:55.620 facial recognition

00:20:56.460 because we only

00:20:57.400 use the right hemisphere

00:20:58.460 for facial recognition

00:20:59.420 whereas non-Western cultures

00:21:00.640 use both the left

00:21:01.440 and the right

00:21:02.360 when it comes to memory

00:21:03.740 attention

00:21:04.360 spatial awareness

00:21:06.040 visual reasoning

00:21:08.420 there is a difference

00:21:09.380 between both societies

00:21:11.820 now why is that

00:21:12.660 well he traces this

00:21:13.940 back down to a thousand

00:21:15.020 years ago

00:21:15.660 to when

00:21:16.360 the Western Church

00:21:18.820 later to become

00:21:19.480 the Catholic Church

00:21:20.440 banned

00:21:21.380 cousin marriages

00:21:22.680 because up to that point

00:21:24.040 the whole world

00:21:24.960 had clans

00:21:25.960 and kinship

00:21:27.280 based upon

00:21:27.840 these large

00:21:28.380 extended families

00:21:29.280 where your first

00:21:29.960 second third

00:21:30.480 fourth cousins

00:21:31.220 were all

00:21:32.300 deemed to be

00:21:33.560 equal to brothers

00:21:34.640 and sisters

00:21:35.220 and because of that

00:21:36.560 those clan societies

00:21:37.760 were very much

00:21:38.420 based upon

00:21:39.060 nepotism

00:21:39.700 upon obedience

00:21:40.640 to authority

00:21:41.520 upon conformity

00:21:43.440 what happened

00:21:44.520 in the West

00:21:44.920 once you ban

00:21:45.800 marriage

00:21:46.800 between certain

00:21:47.580 degrees of

00:21:48.060 consanguidity

00:21:48.740 you got the birth

00:21:50.220 of the nuclear family

00:21:51.380 which doesn't exist

00:21:52.480 elsewhere

00:21:52.900 so 75% of the world

00:21:54.420 still has cousin marriages

00:21:55.740 about 90% of the world

00:21:57.580 doesn't have

00:21:58.240 the same notion

00:21:59.500 of the exclusive

00:22:00.200 nuclear family

00:22:01.080 that we have

00:22:01.820 and once you had

00:22:02.960 the nuclear family

00:22:03.840 devoid of its

00:22:04.780 external connections

00:22:05.780 to clanship

00:22:06.800 suddenly they had

00:22:08.000 you got the birth

00:22:09.080 of individuality

00:22:10.340 and innovation

00:22:11.600 because the nuclear family

00:22:12.860 then had to rely

00:22:13.600 on contact

00:22:14.560 with strangers

00:22:15.200 and the discerning

00:22:17.160 feature of the West

00:22:18.280 has been

00:22:18.880 its levels

00:22:19.860 of high social trust

00:22:21.320 and its faith

00:22:22.640 in their fellow neighbours

00:22:24.100 can you trust

00:22:24.860 somebody else

00:22:25.640 will you actually

00:22:26.720 help them

00:22:27.140 in a moment of need

00:22:27.980 and so forth

00:22:28.580 you don't find that

00:22:29.660 in non-Western cultures

00:22:30.800 and this is a long way

00:22:31.900 to answer your question

00:22:32.660 but I think

00:22:33.420 take all the time

00:22:35.400 because this is

00:22:36.120 the best bit

00:22:36.900 this is so fascinating

00:22:37.980 please carry on

00:22:38.780 and so what then

00:22:39.820 happened is

00:22:40.260 you had these

00:22:41.160 individual nuclear families

00:22:43.040 and they then had

00:22:44.000 to rely on others

00:22:45.200 for different types

00:22:46.080 of help

00:22:46.780 and services

00:22:47.420 and people then

00:22:48.520 began to choose

00:22:49.340 occupations of their

00:22:50.320 own choice

00:22:50.840 for the first time

00:22:51.780 and through that

00:22:52.760 you then had people

00:22:53.600 forming contracts

00:22:54.980 with other people

00:22:55.640 will you do this for me

00:22:56.700 and so you get

00:22:57.080 the birth of contracts

00:22:58.260 in Western culture

00:22:59.820 and they began

00:23:01.320 to come together

00:23:02.500 through guilds

00:23:03.660 in the original

00:23:04.240 sort of trade unions

00:23:05.460 get together

00:23:06.480 through confraternities

00:23:07.880 get together

00:23:08.820 through the establishment

00:23:09.880 of universities

00:23:10.700 and getting together

00:23:12.020 through charter towns

00:23:13.080 charter towns

00:23:13.840 are towns

00:23:14.220 that you have

00:23:14.580 to apply to join

00:23:15.500 and you take an oath

00:23:16.380 saying I will live up

00:23:17.940 to my responsibilities

00:23:18.840 to help develop this

00:23:20.120 and once you have

00:23:21.380 this cross-pollination

00:23:22.520 between all of these

00:23:23.980 different unique

00:23:24.820 uniquely Western

00:23:26.160 institutions arising

00:23:27.580 you get innovation

00:23:28.920 and social trust

00:23:30.920 is intrinsically linked

00:23:32.260 to economic prosperity

00:23:33.380 and innovation

00:23:34.480 and individualism

00:23:36.240 of course

00:23:36.680 was core to this

00:23:37.900 that was the foundation

00:23:39.840 for the uniqueness

00:23:41.160 of the West

00:23:41.780 because it's not found

00:23:42.920 anywhere else

00:23:44.060 and it was on that basis

00:23:45.640 and on those building blocks

00:23:46.920 that you began to see

00:23:47.900 the development

00:23:48.440 of a very different

00:23:49.460 type of mentality

00:23:50.520 a very different type

00:23:51.880 of view in the world

00:23:52.640 and you see evidence

00:23:53.740 of it today

00:23:54.400 for example

00:23:55.460 if you look at notions

00:23:56.940 of guilt

00:23:57.800 so guilt is very much

00:23:59.340 a Western concept

00:24:00.600 it now expands

00:24:01.960 because of industrialization

00:24:03.140 you find it in Japan

00:24:04.200 and elsewhere

00:24:04.860 but it's something

00:24:06.040 which when we do

00:24:07.600 something bad

00:24:08.260 we feel guilty

00:24:09.060 because we have let

00:24:09.940 ourselves down

00:24:10.880 as individuals

00:24:11.480 we haven't lived

00:24:12.320 up to our own

00:24:13.860 moral code

00:24:14.640 elsewhere in the world

00:24:16.260 I mean it's not

00:24:17.120 black and white

00:24:17.680 there are gradations

00:24:18.440 of this everywhere now

00:24:19.320 but it's shame

00:24:20.300 that determines

00:24:20.980 all of this

00:24:21.420 I have dishonored

00:24:22.140 my family

00:24:22.740 also for example

00:24:25.140 if you ask a Westerner

00:24:26.820 to identify themselves

00:24:28.680 they will use

00:24:29.580 achievements and attributes

00:24:31.080 so you would say

00:24:31.820 I'm Francis

00:24:32.840 I'm a stand-up comedian

00:24:34.880 I'm an extroverted introvert

00:24:37.700 and I collect

00:24:38.420 you know milk bottle tops

00:24:39.520 or whatever

00:24:39.960 right

00:24:40.300 you then ask

00:24:41.360 Nailed it

00:24:41.680 You ask someone

00:24:44.300 from an area of Africa

00:24:47.280 for example

00:24:47.820 they will say

00:24:48.320 well I'm X

00:24:49.060 I'm the son of Y 0.89

00:24:50.600 I'm the husband of Z 0.99

00:24:51.980 and I'm the father

00:24:53.340 of so and so

00:24:54.140 so again

00:24:54.740 it's family connections

00:24:55.820 that identify

00:24:56.360 who the person is

00:24:57.520 and the Anglosphere

00:25:01.020 particularly exploded

00:25:02.640 as a birthplace

00:25:04.180 of notions of liberty

00:25:05.140 and the industrial revolution

00:25:07.220 and so forth

00:25:07.860 also because of the rise

00:25:09.340 of Protestantism

00:25:10.200 because Protestantism

00:25:11.640 separated or removed

00:25:15.680 the priest from the equation

00:25:17.440 so people then had to read

00:25:19.040 the Bible themselves

00:25:20.060 they had to become literate

00:25:21.840 and so the growth of literacy

00:25:23.240 came out of Protestantism

00:25:25.080 and that's why you see

00:25:26.960 the most individual countries

00:25:28.500 in the world

00:25:28.980 on the ranking

00:25:29.500 America and Canada

00:25:30.800 are the most individualistic

00:25:31.980 then it's Australia

00:25:32.900 then it's the UK

00:25:33.980 and then it's the Scandinavian countries

00:25:37.380 which of course

00:25:37.840 are also Protestant

00:25:38.740 and this you know

00:25:39.960 I find this theory

00:25:41.400 of Joseph Heimlich

00:25:42.180 very very compelling

00:25:43.060 and you can actually see it

00:25:44.500 on a granular level

00:25:45.400 so if you look at Italy

00:25:46.620 for example

00:25:47.300 the Western church's ban

00:25:49.260 on cousin marriage

00:25:50.160 was applied very rigorously

00:25:52.020 in Northern Italy

00:25:52.920 but not in Southern Italy

00:25:54.300 and if you want to see

00:25:55.680 the difference

00:25:56.380 in the cultures

00:25:57.420 between North and South Italy

00:25:58.700 South Italy

00:25:59.560 has a great deal

00:26:00.440 of corruption

00:26:01.020 there's a reason

00:26:01.840 why the Cosa Nostra

00:26:02.820 you know

00:26:03.120 the Mafia families 0.61

00:26:04.080 came into evolution there

00:26:05.820 it's fascinating

00:26:06.540 to determine that

00:26:07.420 even within the European context

00:26:09.060 let alone

00:26:09.820 in the broader globally

00:26:10.840 so anyway

00:26:11.260 I would say

00:26:11.920 that is the origins

00:26:14.080 and reason

00:26:14.700 for Western exceptionalism

00:26:16.060 so the reason

00:26:17.080 that we are so good

00:26:18.120 at innovating

00:26:18.960 is all of that history

00:26:20.440 and your point

00:26:21.080 about Italy

00:26:21.600 is interesting

00:26:22.020 I've spent a lot

00:26:22.900 of time in Italy

00:26:23.640 the South of Italy

00:26:24.880 used to be very very rich

00:26:26.320 at a time when lemons

00:26:27.560 were this precious commodity

00:26:29.320 for seafaring etc

00:26:31.140 but they never managed

00:26:32.460 to convert that

00:26:33.320 into industrial growth

00:26:35.760 and it is a very deprived

00:26:37.280 part of Europe now

00:26:38.860 because of it

00:26:39.620 that is really really fascinating

00:26:43.560 but there's another point

00:26:45.160 sorry yeah

00:26:45.940 another point there also

00:26:47.060 because you're quite right

00:26:48.900 the process of industrialization

00:26:50.480 didn't hit Southern Italy

00:26:51.600 but also this puts a big lie

00:26:53.800 to the argument

00:26:55.100 made now all the time

00:26:56.440 that slavery

00:26:57.480 was the source

00:26:59.600 of the wealth of Britain

00:27:01.160 and that the industrial revolution

00:27:03.160 happened because of slavery

00:27:04.600 now if slavery was

00:27:06.800 the driving force

00:27:08.240 behind industrialization

00:27:09.400 you would have had Spain 0.90

00:27:11.040 and Portugal

00:27:11.860 as the great powerful behemoths

00:27:14.100 of the 18th and 19th centuries

00:27:16.300 instead of which

00:27:16.920 they became economic backwaters

00:27:18.980 you know despite the fact

00:27:19.900 that they had

00:27:20.360 Spain had one third more slaves

00:27:22.540 than Britain did 0.96

00:27:23.420 in the USA of course

00:27:25.240 the southern states

00:27:26.120 which were the slave owning states 0.98

00:27:27.320 didn't industrialize

00:27:28.380 it was the north of America

00:27:29.960 that industrialized

00:27:31.660 you know

00:27:32.280 so you know again

00:27:34.040 the point here

00:27:35.960 is that people are always looking

00:27:37.320 for a negative reason

00:27:38.720 for the exceptionalism

00:27:40.140 of the West

00:27:40.660 they're looking for a negative reason

00:27:42.500 for why Britain industrialized

00:27:44.220 it couldn't have been

00:27:45.140 because of Britain's genius

00:27:46.740 that Britain became 0.80

00:27:47.900 the first country

00:27:48.580 to industrialize

00:27:49.460 that you had Watts

00:27:50.660 and the great you know

00:27:51.600 inventors and so forth

00:27:52.700 there has to be

00:27:53.540 there has to be

00:27:54.360 a sinister source

00:27:55.500 for all of this

00:27:56.620 privilege and wealth

00:27:57.920 and genius

00:27:58.440 that that happened

00:27:59.080 and simply there's no

00:28:00.320 evidence of it at all

00:28:01.540 similarly there's no evidence

00:28:02.820 that you know

00:28:03.340 well you know

00:28:04.280 and 1792 was the peak year

00:28:07.220 for the sugar industry

00:28:08.960 and for Britain

00:28:09.780 in the slave trade

00:28:10.840 sugar was the most

00:28:12.200 important commodity

00:28:13.160 now in 1792

00:28:14.980 sugar only accounted

00:28:16.780 for 3%

00:28:17.940 of British capital formation

00:28:20.140 so if sugar really was

00:28:21.780 this huge economic

00:28:23.540 you know jewel in the crown

00:28:24.800 you would have had capital

00:28:26.060 flowing into it

00:28:26.740 from all sources

00:28:27.340 it should have been 30%

00:28:28.540 not 3%

00:28:29.860 in fact we know now

00:28:31.760 that the contribution

00:28:33.040 of sugar

00:28:34.100 to the British economy

00:28:35.160 was the same

00:28:36.240 as barley and hops

00:28:37.600 but you never get anyone

00:28:38.700 saying that beer

00:28:39.440 was the fuel

00:28:40.180 of the industrial revolution

00:28:41.280 at all do you

00:28:42.040 so again

00:28:42.660 we have to always

00:28:44.120 look at the facts here

00:28:45.300 and the facts tell

00:28:45.920 a very different story

00:28:46.800 from the predominant

00:28:48.160 narrative of our time

00:28:49.220 and Rafe we spend a lot

00:28:50.560 of time in the US

00:28:51.480 nowadays

00:28:52.000 and obviously

00:28:54.000 the history of

00:28:55.500 particularly slavery

00:28:56.620 is very very different

00:28:57.840 because they had

00:28:59.200 a lot of slaves

00:29:00.360 living there

00:29:01.160 and still

00:29:02.680 the people who

00:29:03.420 descended from their slaves

00:29:04.640 live in their society

00:29:06.860 today

00:29:07.280 I think objectively

00:29:08.440 I don't know

00:29:09.360 whether you can

00:29:10.400 trace it exactly

00:29:12.020 as that

00:29:12.620 but I suspect

00:29:13.140 you probably can

00:29:14.020 that those communities

00:29:15.520 are very deprived

00:29:16.540 when you see it

00:29:17.500 with your own eyes

00:29:18.060 when you travel around

00:29:18.780 the United States

00:29:19.480 and you also see

00:29:20.860 that people's

00:29:22.080 subjective feelings

00:29:24.100 about that issue

00:29:24.700 people are much more

00:29:25.520 sensitive about that issue

00:29:26.760 there

00:29:26.980 even than they are

00:29:27.900 here in Britain

00:29:28.800 what can you tell us

00:29:30.400 about the United States

00:29:31.460 and the colonial

00:29:32.600 Americas

00:29:33.760 in terms of

00:29:35.140 all of these issues

00:29:36.060 it's undeniable

00:29:37.720 that you know

00:29:38.420 the chattel slavery

00:29:39.820 in America

00:29:40.460 was absolutely brutal

00:29:41.940 and horrific

00:29:42.820 and you know

00:29:44.140 I would say

00:29:44.920 obviously anybody

00:29:45.720 who was around

00:29:46.400 in the 1860s

00:29:47.400 would be absolutely

00:29:48.400 entitled to claim

00:29:49.540 reparations for the horrors

00:29:50.940 the absolute horrors

00:29:52.340 of slavery

00:29:53.060 and much the same

00:29:54.460 as in the British

00:29:55.320 Caribbean islands

00:29:56.220 you know

00:29:56.560 slavery was horrific there

00:29:58.360 has to be said

00:29:59.320 at the same time

00:30:00.000 that black Americans

00:30:01.060 are the wealthiest

00:30:02.800 black people

00:30:03.480 in the world 0.90

00:30:04.020 I mean

00:30:04.320 so there is a lot

00:30:05.020 of deprivation

00:30:05.620 obviously

00:30:06.040 but they still have

00:30:07.220 the greatest amount

00:30:08.340 of wealth

00:30:08.700 of any element

00:30:10.440 of the African diaspora

00:30:13.280 but the call

00:30:15.500 now today

00:30:16.300 this whole idea

00:30:17.960 of inherited

00:30:18.820 trauma

00:30:20.100 for example

00:30:20.860 we're talking about

00:30:22.000 eight generations now

00:30:23.300 we're talking about

00:30:24.000 the great great great great

00:30:25.220 great great great

00:30:25.840 great grandchildren

00:30:26.740 and the whole issue

00:30:28.920 of giving reparations

00:30:31.040 or compensating people

00:30:32.280 for the past

00:30:32.980 is I don't think

00:30:34.820 it holds any water

00:30:35.600 because reparations

00:30:36.800 are fundamentally

00:30:37.400 an issue of tort law

00:30:38.620 it's about putting

00:30:39.520 the victim back

00:30:40.260 into the position

00:30:40.900 they would have been in

00:30:41.760 had the trauma

00:30:43.800 not occurred

00:30:44.620 but I don't see

00:30:46.000 why you could

00:30:47.060 actually say today

00:30:48.080 that the lives

00:30:49.580 of African Americans

00:30:50.660 in America 0.99

00:30:51.680 is actually worse

00:30:53.160 than if they had never

00:30:54.040 had their ancestors

00:30:54.980 leave Africa 0.99

00:30:56.160 you know

00:30:56.840 in 1973

00:30:57.660 I think it was

00:30:58.560 72

00:30:58.880 you had the rumble

00:30:59.960 in the jungle

00:31:00.520 when Muhammad Ali

00:31:01.440 went to fight

00:31:02.920 in Zaire

00:31:04.100 and he was asked

00:31:05.840 by one of the journalists

00:31:06.640 he said

00:31:06.960 well what do you think

00:31:07.500 of Africa

00:31:07.940 he said

00:31:08.480 I'm so glad

00:31:09.320 my granddaddy

00:31:09.940 got on that boat 0.69

00:31:10.700 now this is a black

00:31:13.580 civil rights activist

00:31:14.960 right

00:31:15.260 and you know

00:31:16.220 he could see

00:31:16.700 the difference there

00:31:17.420 so yeah

00:31:17.780 life is not great

00:31:18.820 for everybody

00:31:19.400 but it's a hell

00:31:20.240 of a lot better

00:31:20.880 I mean

00:31:21.320 for example

00:31:22.080 let's look at it

00:31:23.480 this way

00:31:23.740 CARICOM

00:31:24.300 which is the organization

00:31:25.260 in the Caribbean

00:31:26.240 trying to get compensation

00:31:27.420 from the British

00:31:28.240 and the Americans

00:31:29.020 I think it's in the region

00:31:30.180 of trillions of pounds

00:31:31.180 they wanted compensation

00:31:32.260 for slavery

00:31:33.280 I'm sorry

00:31:34.140 but the Caribbean nations

00:31:35.280 are actually middle income

00:31:36.880 countries

00:31:37.380 which rank higher

00:31:38.180 on the human development

00:31:39.100 index

00:31:39.620 than Brazil

00:31:40.400 or Mexico

00:31:41.500 if you look

00:31:43.100 for example

00:31:43.680 the best way

00:31:44.720 to do it

00:31:45.060 is to compare

00:31:45.660 the Caribbean

00:31:46.220 to West Africa

00:31:47.180 which is where

00:31:47.660 the slaves came from

00:31:48.680 so the annual GDP

00:31:50.340 per capita

00:31:51.000 in Benin

00:31:51.660 is $1,400

00:31:53.400 approximately

00:31:54.340 in Barbados

00:31:55.500 it's $17,000

00:31:57.060 so we're talking

00:31:57.640 about 10 times

00:31:58.700 higher income

00:31:59.660 the life expectancy

00:32:01.060 in Benin

00:32:01.620 is 62

00:32:02.380 in Barbados

00:32:03.620 it's 79

00:32:05.020 so we're talking

00:32:06.000 about 15 years

00:32:07.000 more life

00:32:07.600 10 times

00:32:08.540 more money

00:32:09.420 so you know

00:32:11.020 as horrific

00:32:12.020 as slavery was

00:32:12.940 and nobody

00:32:13.360 is suggesting

00:32:13.920 that slavery

00:32:14.360 wasn't horrific

00:32:15.080 it's impossible

00:32:16.140 for me

00:32:16.660 to understand

00:32:17.340 why no one

00:32:17.780 can say

00:32:18.140 that the lives

00:32:18.880 of people

00:32:19.480 living in the Caribbean

00:32:20.360 living in this country

00:32:21.860 living in America

00:32:23.080 are worse

00:32:24.100 because their ancestors

00:32:25.360 were enslaved

00:32:26.200 in fact

00:32:26.660 it's just the opposite

00:32:27.420 I would say

00:32:28.020 do you not think

00:32:28.560 the idea

00:32:29.100 of intergenerational trauma

00:32:30.680 is true though

00:32:31.760 because

00:32:32.260 think about

00:32:33.540 how much

00:32:34.140 your life

00:32:34.860 would be set back

00:32:35.800 if you were

00:32:36.240 starting in that position

00:32:37.300 the life

00:32:38.140 you were able

00:32:38.520 to give to your children

00:32:39.400 would be obviously

00:32:40.320 significantly affected

00:32:41.480 by that

00:32:41.980 the life

00:32:42.620 that they would be able

00:32:43.240 to give to their children

00:32:44.160 you can play that movie

00:32:45.040 forward

00:32:45.340 I mean

00:32:45.560 I take my own example

00:32:47.260 you know

00:32:48.060 my ancestors

00:32:49.340 being deported

00:32:51.160 to Siberia

00:32:52.020 because they were

00:32:52.620 Kulaks 1.00

00:32:53.080 or whatever

00:32:53.520 like that had

00:32:54.460 a material effect

00:32:55.340 on all our family

00:32:56.140 if we'd been living

00:32:56.980 in the United States

00:32:58.620 and just multiplying

00:32:59.580 our wealth

00:33:00.060 this entire time

00:33:00.940 this studio

00:33:01.680 would be a lot bigger

00:33:02.440 do you know

00:33:02.940 do you know what I'm saying

00:33:03.500 yeah but there's no evidence

00:33:04.240 for that in West Africa

00:33:05.120 that's my point

00:33:05.960 I mean we're talking

00:33:06.600 about people

00:33:07.140 who are 10 times poorer

00:33:08.400 and live 15 years less

00:33:10.660 in West Africa

00:33:11.640 so if those

00:33:12.380 so I don't see that

00:33:13.340 I mean look

00:33:13.920 my family were Polish

00:33:15.740 in what is now

00:33:16.820 Western Ukraine

00:33:17.500 but that was Poland

00:33:18.360 before the war

00:33:19.020 they were sent to

00:33:20.440 sent to the Gulags

00:33:21.960 in Kazakhstan

00:33:22.600 and in Siberia

00:33:23.880 I had also had family

00:33:25.440 in Auschwitz as well

00:33:27.540 who were Polish

00:33:28.160 political prisoners there

00:33:29.440 so communists

00:33:30.320 and fascists

00:33:30.760 both

00:33:31.000 now the idea

00:33:32.140 that I would try

00:33:32.760 and seek compensation

00:33:33.420 for that 0.87

00:33:34.060 I think is ridiculous 0.82

00:33:35.160 even though it severely 0.84

00:33:36.380 impacted my own life

00:33:37.680 because of course

00:33:38.520 my family were aristocrats

00:33:40.520 and had a great lifestyle

00:33:41.480 over there

00:33:42.060 but I don't understand

00:33:44.280 that you know

00:33:44.700 this idea of inherited trauma

00:33:46.720 lasting for eight generations

00:33:48.020 yeah I guess

00:33:49.160 the thing that I suppose

00:33:50.620 we're getting to

00:33:51.560 is how do we process

00:33:53.740 the evil things

00:33:55.180 that were done

00:33:55.920 by our societies

00:33:57.460 in the past

00:33:58.040 how do

00:33:58.360 what is the healthy view

00:34:00.320 of that

00:34:00.640 is I think

00:34:01.180 the question

00:34:01.640 for our time

00:34:02.140 the healthy view

00:34:02.860 is to accept it

00:34:03.860 and acknowledge it fully

00:34:05.000 you know

00:34:05.780 but also to put it

00:34:07.240 into context

00:34:07.900 of what was going on

00:34:08.820 at the time

00:34:09.340 again don't judge

00:34:10.460 the past

00:34:10.940 by today's standards

00:34:12.080 atrocities

00:34:13.060 are always atrocities

00:34:14.160 but in terms of

00:34:15.620 attitudes and so forth

00:34:17.460 those must always be taken

00:34:18.460 within the context

00:34:19.120 of the time

00:34:19.720 but as I say

00:34:20.860 you know

00:34:21.520 the evils of slavery

00:34:23.940 were horrendous

00:34:24.780 for the time

00:34:25.440 but I don't think

00:34:26.340 we can say

00:34:26.860 that the legacy

00:34:27.960 of that today

00:34:28.680 is such a bad thing

00:34:30.020 when you consider

00:34:30.700 the wealth of the Caribbean

00:34:32.720 the wealth of America

00:34:33.720 and the wealth of black people

00:34:35.360 living in this country

00:34:36.240 compared to what it was

00:34:37.340 in Africa

00:34:38.100 so yeah

00:34:38.940 look

00:34:39.580 no one is trying to put

00:34:40.520 anything under the carpet

00:34:41.420 we must always expose

00:34:42.940 but the problem is

00:34:43.780 we have too much focus

00:34:44.840 on the negative

00:34:45.540 and not enough focus

00:34:47.020 on the good things

00:34:48.340 that were done

00:34:48.860 and as I say

00:34:49.500 no civilization before

00:34:51.240 had you know

00:34:52.160 as Western Europe

00:34:53.000 had done

00:34:53.440 had been inspired

00:34:54.560 to try to abolish

00:34:55.760 an age-old custom

00:34:56.860 of slavery

00:34:57.440 and in fact

00:34:58.060 you know

00:34:58.420 it was not just slavery

00:35:00.140 I mean

00:35:00.460 if you look

00:35:00.800 what the British Empire did

00:35:01.880 in India

00:35:02.800 they stopped

00:35:03.360 the burning of Hindu women

00:35:04.980 on funeral pyres 0.78

00:35:06.020 they stopped

00:35:07.140 the infanticide

00:35:07.920 of young girls

00:35:08.640 well they passed legislation

00:35:09.680 to stop the infanticide

00:35:10.640 of young girls

00:35:11.140 they allowed Hindu women

00:35:12.520 to remarry

00:35:13.500 they stopped

00:35:14.260 head hunting

00:35:14.900 in New Zealand

00:35:15.820 tried to stop

00:35:16.700 female genital mutilation

00:35:17.940 in East Africa 0.98

00:35:18.820 you had

00:35:19.880 human sacrifices

00:35:21.140 were carrying on

00:35:21.960 you know

00:35:22.180 in the kingdom

00:35:22.620 of Benin and Dahome

00:35:23.720 there were annual sacrifices

00:35:25.280 of slaves

00:35:25.940 in the thousands

00:35:27.040 you know

00:35:27.860 still carries on today

00:35:28.880 unfortunately

00:35:29.360 in many countries

00:35:30.060 in Africa

00:35:30.520 in Mozambique

00:35:31.260 and Mali

00:35:31.720 and elsewhere

00:35:32.180 you still get

00:35:32.880 witchcraft related

00:35:34.400 human sacrifice

00:35:35.120 taking place

00:35:35.740 the British were trying 0.96

00:35:37.000 to abolish all of that

00:35:38.540 so of course

00:35:39.060 there are huge stains

00:35:40.060 on Britain's legacy

00:35:41.040 but there's also

00:35:42.020 an immense amount

00:35:42.820 of good

00:35:43.180 that we should be celebrating

00:35:44.320 particularly for example

00:35:45.720 if you're women 1.00

00:35:46.320 because women's rights 0.99

00:35:47.280 around the world

00:35:47.940 were hugely elevated

00:35:49.060 by the presence

00:35:50.160 of the British Empire

00:35:51.360 in very patriarchal

00:35:53.700 very misogynistic cultures 0.97

00:35:54.920 such as India

00:35:55.540 and so forth

00:35:56.200 and so the reason

00:35:56.840 you have so many

00:35:57.940 ethnic minority women

00:35:59.260 in positions of power

00:36:00.320 around the world

00:36:01.140 is in large part

00:36:02.400 because of the British Empire

00:36:03.500 and you know

00:36:04.460 the creation

00:36:05.640 of democratic legislatures

00:36:06.980 across you know

00:36:08.000 one quarter of the globe

00:36:09.140 is thanks to Britain

00:36:10.660 and the British Empire

00:36:11.540 Grave

00:36:12.540 do you sometimes think

00:36:13.600 that we're being gaslit

00:36:14.920 as a society

00:36:15.840 when it comes

00:36:17.100 to our historical legacy?

00:36:19.860 Yeah

00:36:20.140 I think it's undeniable

00:36:21.040 I mean

00:36:21.360 the record just speaks

00:36:22.280 for itself

00:36:22.840 to just open a newspaper today

00:36:24.580 or go online

00:36:25.340 and you'll see that

00:36:26.600 we are seeing

00:36:27.460 a concerted effort

00:36:28.460 but the point is

00:36:29.640 of course

00:36:30.020 none of this

00:36:31.040 is based upon

00:36:32.140 a genuine quest

00:36:33.540 for truth

00:36:34.480 or justice

00:36:35.240 nobody

00:36:36.100 as I said before

00:36:37.100 none of the campaigners

00:36:38.560 from BLM

00:36:39.160 and elsewhere

00:36:39.540 care about slavery 0.57

00:36:40.640 if they did

00:36:41.260 they'd be campaigning

00:36:41.940 about modern slavery

00:36:42.940 this is all about

00:36:44.300 trying to undermine

00:36:45.520 the West

00:36:46.040 and its achievements

00:36:46.780 and so let's talk

00:36:48.800 a little bit

00:36:49.480 about communism

00:36:51.100 as somebody

00:36:52.360 who has

00:36:53.620 who saw communism

00:36:54.620 rise

00:36:55.100 in

00:36:55.580 his own country

00:36:57.600 I don't understand

00:36:59.900 why

00:37:00.920 it has this pull

00:37:02.840 what is it

00:37:03.980 about

00:37:04.360 this

00:37:05.060 ideology

00:37:06.420 that is so

00:37:07.600 that is so attractive

00:37:08.620 to young people

00:37:09.380 why

00:37:09.760 why is the marketing

00:37:10.780 about it so great

00:37:11.780 you see kids

00:37:13.020 wearing

00:37:13.460 Che Guevara t-shirts

00:37:14.920 Che Guevara

00:37:16.300 was a 0.98

00:37:17.180 rabid homophobe 0.97

00:37:19.020 who executed 1.00

00:37:20.160 gay people 0.99

00:37:20.780 despised them 0.99

00:37:21.760 and a racist as well

00:37:22.900 yeah

00:37:23.140 as was Karl Marx

00:37:24.200 a huge racist

00:37:25.000 you know you'll have 0.66

00:37:25.720 Churchill being condemned

00:37:26.820 as a racist

00:37:27.400 Churchill never used

00:37:28.560 the n-word

00:37:29.160 he very rarely

00:37:30.020 used any racial epithets

00:37:31.940 actually

00:37:32.260 in all the millions

00:37:32.960 of words we have about him

00:37:34.040 he never once used

00:37:34.920 used the n-word

00:37:36.580 for example

00:37:37.060 Karl Marx was using it

00:37:38.440 seemingly almost every day

00:37:39.640 if you read his letters

00:37:40.520 to Engels

00:37:41.120 and so forth

00:37:42.380 he might have been a fan

00:37:43.260 of hip-hop

00:37:43.780 right

00:37:44.000 but communism

00:37:46.400 you know

00:37:46.940 it appeals to

00:37:48.100 you know

00:37:48.400 you've got to remember

00:37:49.180 youth are open

00:37:50.480 to radicalisation

00:37:51.360 you know

00:37:51.700 whether it be radical Islam

00:37:52.840 whether it be communism

00:37:54.340 whether it just be

00:37:55.400 you know

00:37:55.640 gangs in LA

00:37:56.540 and elsewhere

00:37:57.100 you know

00:37:57.880 people want to become

00:37:58.740 part of something

00:37:59.380 and the whole

00:37:59.920 notion of Marxism

00:38:01.580 which is about

00:38:02.160 the oppressor

00:38:02.780 and the oppressed

00:38:03.360 is very appealing

00:38:04.260 to youth

00:38:05.420 who are naturally

00:38:06.440 left-wing

00:38:06.900 remember the old adage

00:38:07.920 if you're not a liberal

00:38:08.660 at 25 you have no

00:38:10.000 heart

00:38:10.760 if you're not a conservative 0.99

00:38:11.600 at 35 you have no brain 0.88

00:38:12.920 right 0.92

00:38:13.200 so it's that

00:38:13.920 age demographic

00:38:15.720 but I think

00:38:17.040 what woke is

00:38:17.760 tacked into that

00:38:18.620 that's why I call it

00:38:19.360 American Marxism

00:38:20.380 actually

00:38:20.740 and you know

00:38:21.900 James Lindsay

00:38:22.600 he's got a very good

00:38:23.560 analogy for this

00:38:24.420 about the

00:38:25.100 the genus

00:38:26.240 of a cat

00:38:27.220 so he says

00:38:28.080 Marxism is the cat

00:38:29.420 the genus

00:38:29.960 but then you have a cat

00:38:30.760 but then you have

00:38:31.220 tigers

00:38:32.320 lions

00:38:33.020 leopards

00:38:33.660 tabby cats

00:38:34.460 are all species

00:38:35.440 of cats

00:38:36.180 in the same way

00:38:37.560 you've had

00:38:38.160 you had

00:38:38.740 traditional economic Marxism

00:38:40.600 which is about

00:38:41.060 the proletariat

00:38:41.760 and the bourgeoisie

00:38:42.640 you know

00:38:43.300 the oppressor

00:38:44.300 and the oppressed

00:38:45.540 and that was a direct attack

00:38:46.840 on capitalism

00:38:48.060 and on private property

00:38:50.380 but now we have

00:38:51.540 all the other Marxisms now

00:38:52.920 so we have

00:38:53.640 critical race theory

00:38:55.380 which is an attack

00:38:56.460 on whiteness

00:38:57.500 you have

00:38:58.640 radical feminism

00:38:59.740 which is an attack

00:39:00.820 on men

00:39:01.400 and importantly

00:39:02.380 on the masculine qualities

00:39:03.840 that made the West

00:39:05.180 so great

00:39:05.860 you have queer theory 0.83

00:39:07.680 which is an attack

00:39:08.640 on heterosexuality

00:39:09.820 but more importantly

00:39:10.620 also an attack

00:39:11.540 on the family

00:39:12.560 and you have

00:39:13.520 what we're talking about

00:39:14.520 which is post-colonialism

00:39:15.860 and decolonization

00:39:16.820 which is an attack

00:39:18.080 on everything

00:39:18.700 that the West achieved

00:39:19.700 and these are all linked

00:39:20.780 by intersectionality

00:39:22.400 and taken together

00:39:24.260 that is an extremely

00:39:25.620 potent force

00:39:26.600 for undermining

00:39:27.260 and demoralizing

00:39:28.000 the West

00:39:28.500 and the reason

00:39:30.400 it's come into effect

00:39:31.380 is again

00:39:31.840 because of this

00:39:32.640 gradual long march

00:39:33.640 where everything

00:39:34.500 all of this

00:39:34.980 becomes normalized now

00:39:36.020 the people

00:39:36.680 who are espousing this

00:39:37.760 in the 1970s

00:39:38.960 were radicals

00:39:40.780 underground

00:39:41.280 all of that stuff

00:39:42.380 is now completely

00:39:43.160 mainstream

00:39:43.700 and the people

00:39:44.280 who are espousing that

00:39:45.320 wouldn't even identify

00:39:46.700 themselves as being

00:39:47.740 radically left

00:39:48.460 they would say

00:39:49.020 that they are liberal

00:39:49.800 but the fact is

00:39:51.160 they are espousing views

00:39:52.220 that were fundamentally

00:39:53.120 extremely

00:39:54.420 you know

00:39:55.080 extreme Marxist

00:39:56.240 viewpoints

00:39:56.780 just 40-50 years ago

00:39:58.380 and people aren't even aware

00:39:59.760 that they are now

00:40:00.380 espousing communist ideology

00:40:01.780 and so what happens

00:40:03.460 because you're a historian

00:40:05.440 can you see parallels

00:40:07.120 with former societies

00:40:08.520 and empires

00:40:09.280 where ideologies

00:40:11.200 rose to the surface

00:40:12.540 that were toxic

00:40:13.560 to the cohesion

00:40:15.160 of that society

00:40:16.300 well we can see

00:40:17.800 a direct parallel

00:40:18.860 obviously

00:40:19.320 you know

00:40:19.760 around the world

00:40:20.560 but you know

00:40:21.020 let me just put it

00:40:21.780 this way

00:40:23.100 if you look at

00:40:23.840 if you look at

00:40:25.080 China

00:40:25.820 and the communist Europe

00:40:27.900 you can really see

00:40:29.220 what was the first thing

00:40:30.240 that happened

00:40:30.640 in the former Soviet bloc

00:40:32.600 with the fall of communism

00:40:33.920 they restored

00:40:35.200 their national flags

00:40:36.260 and they restored

00:40:36.980 their national anthems

00:40:38.100 they restored

00:40:38.720 their orders

00:40:39.220 and decorations

00:40:39.920 they restored

00:40:41.060 all of the symbols

00:40:41.860 and identity

00:40:42.460 of the nation

00:40:43.860 which had been

00:40:44.420 completely undermined

00:40:45.800 by communism

00:40:47.100 and they tried

00:40:47.660 to rewrite your history

00:40:48.820 that's exactly

00:40:49.820 what we're seeing

00:40:50.480 here as well

00:40:51.120 it's this march

00:40:51.900 towards sort of

00:40:52.640 a year zero

00:40:53.240 we're having

00:40:53.700 our history rewritten

00:40:55.020 we're having

00:40:55.920 our heroes undermined

00:40:57.180 the entire notion

00:40:58.680 that there is anything

00:40:59.240 to be proud of

00:40:59.940 in a society

00:41:00.560 so all of these

00:41:01.620 ideologies

00:41:02.680 arise

00:41:03.700 through a need

00:41:04.940 to

00:41:05.300 through an attempt

00:41:06.520 to undermine

00:41:07.200 what came before

00:41:08.460 that's the

00:41:09.280 that's the common value

00:41:11.040 of all ideologies

00:41:12.000 that they try to undermine

00:41:13.060 what came before

00:41:13.860 and replace it

00:41:15.000 but you know

00:41:15.880 artificially constructed

00:41:17.000 ideologies rarely last

00:41:18.720 because of course

00:41:20.100 they don't have

00:41:20.620 secure foundations

00:41:21.580 now it took

00:41:22.780 you know

00:41:23.280 70 years

00:41:24.020 or whatever it took

00:41:24.560 for communism

00:41:25.060 to finally collapse

00:41:26.060 who knows how long

00:41:27.280 it will take

00:41:27.700 in this country

00:41:28.300 but you know

00:41:28.880 I think hopefully

00:41:29.700 there are enough

00:41:30.860 there are enough

00:41:31.480 of us now

00:41:32.060 speaking out against this

00:41:33.220 and trying to turn

00:41:34.560 the trying to subvert

00:41:36.180 the subverted

00:41:36.860 that hopefully

00:41:37.640 it won't be that long

00:41:38.440 maybe

00:41:40.760 but the other thing

00:41:42.880 that has happened

00:41:43.700 and this ideology

00:41:44.760 has created

00:41:45.620 is

00:41:46.280 demographic change

00:41:48.660 with mass immigration 0.66

00:41:50.080 the difficulty

00:41:51.280 I see

00:41:51.940 is that

00:41:52.620 you're increasingly

00:41:53.980 not one people

00:41:55.200 right

00:41:56.080 so in that situation

00:41:57.640 it's hard to see

00:41:58.440 how you make

00:41:59.220 your way back

00:41:59.780 unless people

00:42:01.140 do what you

00:42:01.600 and I have done

00:42:02.140 or your family

00:42:02.860 have done

00:42:03.180 and we

00:42:03.540 all through us

00:42:04.220 have done

00:42:04.480 which is integrate

00:42:05.120 and adopt the values

00:42:06.480 of the society

00:42:07.140 to which we've come

00:42:08.080 right

00:42:08.560 but it's

00:42:09.640 yeah

00:42:09.880 but I don't

00:42:10.420 integration is one

00:42:11.460 of the greatest

00:42:11.860 dilemmas we're facing

00:42:12.840 right

00:42:13.360 I mean

00:42:13.860 in the 80s and 90s

00:42:15.420 we had an immigration

00:42:16.280 of 50,000 a year

00:42:17.880 right

00:42:18.380 we had more immigration

00:42:19.360 last year

00:42:20.020 than the entire decade

00:42:21.100 of the 1980s combined

00:42:22.460 you know

00:42:22.800 we've had more immigration

00:42:23.700 in the last 25 years

00:42:25.300 than in the last

00:42:26.320 2,000 years

00:42:27.520 so the idea

00:42:28.660 that you can integrate

00:42:29.540 such large numbers

00:42:30.500 of people

00:42:31.060 is simply impossible

00:42:32.220 because there's no incentive

00:42:33.440 for them to integrate

00:42:34.400 right

00:42:34.760 because they have

00:42:35.540 their own communities

00:42:36.900 they watch satellite television

00:42:38.500 they're not even watching

00:42:39.280 any content

00:42:40.380 or any

00:42:40.900 they don't have any exposure

00:42:41.960 to the rest of society

00:42:43.940 now look

00:42:44.760 my family arrived here

00:42:45.900 in 1940

00:42:46.700 with the Polish government

00:42:47.780 when Hitler invaded France 0.57

00:42:49.700 and de Gaulle came over

00:42:50.720 and the Free French

00:42:51.380 and so forth

00:42:51.940 and my family were as

00:42:53.480 you know

00:42:53.960 the gold standard

00:42:55.980 for what you would want

00:42:56.860 they spoke English

00:42:58.120 they loved Britain

00:42:59.640 had a picture of the Queen

00:43:00.660 in the living room

00:43:01.440 went to Ascot and Henley

00:43:03.100 and did all that sort of stuff

00:43:04.180 but they still

00:43:05.300 after 60 years living here

00:43:07.120 they still never identified

00:43:08.460 as British

00:43:09.060 so we'd be watching

00:43:10.280 a documentary

00:43:10.840 and my great uncle

00:43:11.840 would say

00:43:12.260 gosh don't the British 1.00

00:43:13.440 make great documentaries

00:43:14.540 you know

00:43:15.120 things like this

00:43:15.920 they absolutely loved

00:43:16.540 but he still never felt

00:43:17.880 part of it

00:43:18.460 now what we've been told

00:43:19.780 of course is that

00:43:20.360 oh that's just

00:43:20.940 the first generation

00:43:21.880 you know

00:43:22.200 second and third generations

00:43:23.480 will automatically assimilate

00:43:25.100 now that does happen

00:43:26.600 for example

00:43:27.120 for the Polish community

00:43:28.160 and European communities

00:43:29.260 who come from a similar

00:43:30.120 cultural background

00:43:31.100 but what we've seen

00:43:33.220 from all the latest polling

00:43:34.160 for example

00:43:34.660 is that Muslim youth 0.80

00:43:36.220 are far more radicalised 0.63

00:43:37.700 than their parents

00:43:38.580 or their grandparents

00:43:39.480 you know

00:43:40.940 do we know why that is?

00:43:43.020 well

00:43:43.440 that's a very good

00:43:44.140 well

00:43:44.320 I don't know

00:43:44.920 necessarily why it is

00:43:46.320 I think it's because

00:43:47.060 they don't feel

00:43:48.020 a natural affinity to Britain

00:43:49.400 and they have a

00:43:51.260 they have a

00:43:52.260 it's much the same way

00:43:53.540 that if you went to Canada

00:43:54.620 in the 1950s

00:43:55.520 they were more English

00:43:56.240 than the English 0.64

00:43:56.900 I think that there's a great feeling

00:43:58.440 they identify more

00:43:59.240 with their homeland

00:43:59.840 because that's all they hear

00:44:00.960 from their parents

00:44:01.800 and so they create

00:44:03.300 in their mind

00:44:03.960 this ultra orthodox version

00:44:06.540 of what they think

00:44:07.380 exists in their homeland

00:44:08.380 so you know

00:44:09.880 one third of youth

00:44:11.320 aged 16 to 24

00:44:12.480 according to a

00:44:13.420 policy exchange report

00:44:14.660 believe you should be 1.00

00:44:15.620 put to death 1.00

00:44:16.240 if you leave the faith 1.00

00:44:17.380 for you know apostasy

00:44:18.700 you know

00:44:19.440 a majority believe

00:44:21.300 that homosexuality 1.00

00:44:22.120 should be illegal

00:44:22.800 compared to 5%

00:44:23.880 who don't

00:44:24.800 62% believe

00:44:26.480 that you should

00:44:27.280 have restrictions

00:44:27.980 on free speech

00:44:28.880 a majority believe

00:44:30.280 that you know

00:44:31.480 a picture of Mohammed

00:44:33.100 should be illegal

00:44:33.740 to be shown

00:44:34.400 these are far more

00:44:35.680 strongly felt

00:44:36.460 amongst the youth

00:44:37.140 of Britain

00:44:37.820 than amongst their parents

00:44:39.320 and their grandparents

00:44:40.240 and I think

00:44:41.660 it's impossible

00:44:42.460 to expect

00:44:43.740 people who live

00:44:44.980 in ghettoized communities

00:44:46.560 as increasingly is the case

00:44:47.920 to feel any affinity

00:44:49.420 with Britain

00:44:49.960 and why would they

00:44:51.060 want to integrate

00:44:51.760 when all the messaging

00:44:52.820 they get

00:44:53.260 is that Britain 0.99

00:44:53.740 is a terrible country 0.96

00:44:55.160 you know

00:44:55.760 when the media

00:44:56.360 and the universities

00:44:57.120 and our institutions

00:44:57.920 are constantly denigrating

00:44:59.060 Britain's achievements

00:45:00.040 why would they feel

00:45:01.540 a need to integrate

00:45:03.780 and when we're elevating

00:45:05.300 minority cultures

00:45:06.340 over British culture

00:45:07.980 when we are constantly

00:45:09.380 trying to affirm

00:45:10.300 everyone's existing identity

00:45:12.140 there is no insensitive

00:45:13.680 and it's no surprise

00:45:15.100 therefore

00:45:15.380 that they're going

00:45:15.880 to cleave more

00:45:16.660 to that sort of masculine

00:45:17.880 well defined identity

00:45:19.460 of their fathers

00:45:20.240 what it actually talks

00:45:21.680 about as well

00:45:22.340 and we touched on this

00:45:23.760 is a deep sense

00:45:25.180 of alienation here

00:45:26.340 because a lot

00:45:28.060 of these kids

00:45:28.700 I imagine

00:45:29.420 although they may say

00:45:31.040 they're Bangladeshi

00:45:32.700 Pakistani

00:45:33.100 whatever else

00:45:33.920 I can pretty much guarantee

00:45:35.680 that if they went

00:45:36.560 to those countries

00:45:37.420 the people in those countries

00:45:39.040 would say

00:45:39.520 no you're not

00:45:40.100 you're not one of us

00:45:41.200 you're British

00:45:42.280 but then when they're

00:45:43.640 in Britain

00:45:44.180 they don't feel

00:45:45.280 an affinity

00:45:45.720 with that country

00:45:46.820 so it makes sense

00:45:49.480 in a way

00:45:49.960 that you cleave

00:45:50.880 to something

00:45:51.480 and you become

00:45:52.120 more extreme

00:45:52.760 as a result

00:45:53.440 because you feel

00:45:54.560 like you don't

00:45:55.060 belong anywhere

00:45:55.780 yeah but you don't

00:45:56.880 find the same levels

00:45:57.800 with Hindus

00:45:58.460 you don't find

00:45:59.000 the same thing

00:45:59.520 with Sikhs

00:46:00.240 for example

00:46:00.800 you don't find

00:46:01.460 the same thing

00:46:02.020 with Chinese

00:46:02.740 who come over here

00:46:03.920 there is something

00:46:04.860 about the Islamic

00:46:06.220 culture

00:46:06.680 which fosters this

00:46:08.480 and unfortunately

00:46:09.140 they are living

00:46:10.440 in these increasingly

00:46:12.000 segregated communities

00:46:13.140 and we know

00:46:13.680 that Muslims

00:46:14.960 are twice as likely 0.99

00:46:15.980 to become extremists

00:46:17.200 if they live

00:46:17.800 in ghettoized communities

00:46:18.980 and these communities

00:46:20.200 unfortunately

00:46:20.940 are almost like

00:46:23.380 petri dishes

00:46:24.200 allowing the cultivation

00:46:25.880 of cultural practices

00:46:26.960 which we would find

00:46:27.840 abhorrent

00:46:28.400 in the rest of society

00:46:29.820 and that is

00:46:31.280 I think

00:46:31.640 a huge challenge

00:46:32.460 that nobody is

00:46:33.320 willing to discuss

00:46:35.220 you know

00:46:35.640 honor killings

00:46:37.080 child marriages 0.66

00:46:38.100 arranged marriages 0.99

00:46:39.140 rape gangs 0.98

00:46:40.620 you know 0.88

00:46:41.000 Britain is now 0.91

00:46:41.720 the world's leading

00:46:42.600 country

00:46:43.020 in asset attacks

00:46:43.960 these are all practices

00:46:45.360 that are happening

00:46:46.000 within this country

00:46:46.800 which the mainstream media

00:46:48.040 won't touch

00:46:49.020 and won't discuss

00:46:50.020 and you know

00:46:51.220 forget integration

00:46:52.140 we still first need

00:46:53.580 to tackle

00:46:54.420 these sort of sinister

00:46:56.240 and destructive

00:46:57.400 corrosive elements

00:46:58.580 which are increasingly

00:46:59.920 present in what

00:47:00.800 is becoming

00:47:01.420 a fractured

00:47:03.220 ethno-nationalist

00:47:05.020 state

00:47:05.700 where you have

00:47:06.420 these silos

00:47:07.240 developing

00:47:07.860 you know

00:47:08.140 from Bradford

00:47:08.780 and Burnley

00:47:09.460 Birmingham

00:47:10.660 these places

00:47:11.880 there are areas

00:47:12.360 of these cities

00:47:13.220 which are now

00:47:13.800 90%

00:47:14.660 Muslim

00:47:16.100 and you know

00:47:18.240 the Danes

00:47:19.140 had a very good

00:47:19.800 approach to all of this

00:47:20.840 where they have been

00:47:22.040 knocking down

00:47:22.640 a lot of these ghettos 1.00

00:47:23.600 super ghettos 0.89

00:47:24.720 as they call them

00:47:25.420 and they have a policy

00:47:26.860 now where only

00:47:27.880 no more than 30%

00:47:29.340 of any community

00:47:30.140 can be ethnic minority

00:47:31.280 the idea there being

00:47:32.960 to enforce

00:47:33.780 a predominance

00:47:35.120 of Danish values

00:47:36.120 Danish culture

00:47:37.100 ethnic minorities

00:47:38.740 who were born in Denmark

00:47:39.720 they have to undergo

00:47:40.920 30 hours a week

00:47:42.540 of Danish child care

00:47:44.520 where they are taught

00:47:45.280 Danish language

00:47:46.400 Danish values

00:47:47.820 and so forth

00:47:48.660 in school settings

00:47:50.260 no more than

00:47:50.960 30% of schools

00:47:53.020 can have ethnic minorities

00:47:54.220 in them

00:47:54.780 and that's the only way

00:47:56.280 that you can ever hope

00:47:57.260 to have some attempt

00:47:58.380 at integrating

00:47:59.040 because right now

00:48:00.120 you know

00:48:00.700 it was reported

00:48:01.400 in the Daily Mail

00:48:02.080 that there are schools

00:48:02.700 in the north of England

00:48:03.400 where children think

00:48:04.800 that actually

00:48:05.420 Britain is predominantly Asian

00:48:06.760 because that's all they see

00:48:07.820 every day around them

00:48:08.860 that's not

00:48:09.760 there's no hope

00:48:10.420 to have any attempt

00:48:11.680 at integration

00:48:12.260 when you have that

00:48:13.000 when you have that

00:48:13.960 sort of dynamic

00:48:14.680 and demographic

00:48:15.340 yeah but demographics

00:48:16.100 are the greatest challenge

00:48:17.140 we face

00:48:17.640 I mean you know

00:48:18.640 Professor David Coleman

00:48:20.400 who's a leading

00:48:21.100 professor of demography

00:48:22.960 emeritus professor

00:48:23.820 at Oxford University

00:48:24.760 he said

00:48:25.700 he wrote a paper

00:48:26.460 in 2010

00:48:27.240 saying by 2066

00:48:28.800 white British

00:48:29.920 will become an ethnic minority 0.99

00:48:31.160 now he based that

00:48:32.560 upon immigration figures

00:48:34.200 which were half

00:48:35.120 of what we're currently

00:48:36.200 experiencing

00:48:36.940 which by my calculation

00:48:38.140 means

00:48:38.520 at some point

00:48:39.180 in the 2050s

00:48:40.220 white British

00:48:41.160 are going to become

00:48:41.660 an ethnic minority

00:48:42.400 so at what point

00:48:44.380 how can you expect

00:48:45.540 people to integrate

00:48:46.420 into a society

00:48:47.460 when the indigenous population

00:48:49.240 is itself

00:48:50.180 an ethnic minority

00:48:51.180 you know

00:48:52.180 at what point

00:48:52.800 does Britain

00:48:53.420 stop becoming Britain

00:48:54.420 if Britain's only 30%

00:48:55.940 white British

00:48:56.600 is it still Britain

00:48:57.480 well what we're talking

00:48:59.340 about here

00:48:59.900 really is the obliteration

00:49:01.240 of a culture

00:49:01.780 aren't we

00:49:02.260 and if you

00:49:03.500 and if you don't have

00:49:05.280 a homogenous culture

00:49:06.540 then you don't have

00:49:07.520 a society

00:49:08.180 precisely

00:49:09.380 well that

00:49:09.780 that is the long march

00:49:10.900 for the institutions

00:49:11.600 it's all about

00:49:12.760 using minorities

00:49:14.440 be they ethnic minorities 0.91

00:49:15.640 be they gay 0.68

00:49:16.440 be they women 0.99

00:49:17.140 be they trans

00:49:18.060 using ethnic minorities

00:49:20.040 to advance

00:49:20.920 the

00:49:21.480 to advance the agenda

00:49:22.640 in a way

00:49:23.160 that the

00:49:23.700 proletariat

00:49:24.740 the working classes

00:49:25.500 never did

00:49:25.980 because the working classes

00:49:27.040 ended up being

00:49:28.540 small c conservatives

00:49:29.660 the same types

00:49:30.500 who voted in the red wall

00:49:31.600 for for

00:49:32.180 for Boris Johnson

00:49:33.380 you know

00:49:33.740 patriots

00:49:34.360 who still lean

00:49:35.600 who lean left

00:49:36.600 on economics

00:49:37.760 so it is

00:49:38.680 it is actually

00:49:39.400 a real issue

00:49:40.360 and are you hopeful

00:49:42.280 Rafe

00:49:42.720 looking at

00:49:43.580 the way things

00:49:45.280 are unfolding

00:49:45.880 do you think

00:49:46.600 there is a way

00:49:47.080 of turning this back

00:49:48.060 well with demographics

00:49:50.560 I don't know

00:49:51.280 I mean this is the

00:49:52.040 greatest challenge

00:49:52.680 you know

00:49:53.100 whenever I talk

00:49:54.040 about immigration

00:49:54.600 people say

00:49:55.380 oh well

00:49:56.200 how can you

00:49:56.640 of all people

00:49:57.080 be opposed

00:49:57.580 to all of this

00:49:58.420 and I will say

00:49:58.900 look there's a difference

00:49:59.480 between mass immigration

00:50:00.680 and immigration

00:50:01.560 right

00:50:02.080 so what we had

00:50:02.600 in the 80s and 90s

00:50:03.600 was 50,000 a year

00:50:04.820 and we had iconic

00:50:06.340 British role models

00:50:07.760 who were black

00:50:08.660 or Asian

00:50:09.160 right

00:50:09.340 you had Daley Thompson

00:50:10.300 you had

00:50:10.880 Tessa Sanders

00:50:11.700 and Linford Christie

00:50:12.600 you know

00:50:13.300 you had Freddie Mercury

00:50:14.340 nobody saw them

00:50:15.700 through the prism of race

00:50:16.820 they were all British

00:50:17.800 right

00:50:18.260 now everything

00:50:18.900 that we're seeing

00:50:19.440 is through the prism of race

00:50:20.340 and that's been

00:50:20.920 the most destructive

00:50:22.040 aspect of what we're seeing

00:50:23.680 right now

00:50:24.140 in our society

00:50:25.000 and the greatest tragedy

00:50:26.820 of the last 14 years

00:50:28.060 is that we've had

00:50:28.800 a conservative government

00:50:29.740 in place

00:50:30.280 who could have reversed

00:50:31.620 that long march

00:50:32.340 through the institutions

00:50:33.160 because you know

00:50:34.240 Tony Blair had 13 years

00:50:35.920 in which he was able

00:50:36.820 to unfurl his plan

00:50:38.580 for restructuring

00:50:39.380 and changing

00:50:40.220 the face of Britain

00:50:41.060 and remember

00:50:41.740 mass immigration

00:50:42.380 started under Tony Blair

00:50:44.220 and part of the reason

00:50:45.800 we know from

00:50:46.760 Andrew Neither

00:50:47.580 the former speech writer

00:50:48.580 to the immigration minister

00:50:49.580 was to rub the right's

00:50:51.060 nose in diversity

00:50:51.940 because of course

00:50:53.120 80% of ethnic minorities

00:50:54.740 tend to vote

00:50:55.340 for the Labour Party

00:50:56.200 and so the idea

00:50:57.260 of New Labour

00:50:58.260 was to you know

00:50:59.400 flood the nation

00:51:01.040 with a new

00:51:01.680 voting demographic

00:51:03.240 who would ensure

00:51:04.480 that in decades to come

00:51:05.500 they would be in charge

00:51:06.620 and if you look at

00:51:07.260 London and Birmingham

00:51:08.100 these are essentially

00:51:08.800 one party states

00:51:09.640 the great tragedy

00:51:10.620 is the Conservatives

00:51:12.440 put the pedal to the metal

00:51:13.560 right

00:51:14.140 they just continued

00:51:14.960 and accelerated

00:51:15.640 all of that

00:51:16.260 and we now have

00:51:18.500 a Labour government

00:51:19.240 in place right now

00:51:20.140 which is simply

00:51:20.660 going to continue

00:51:21.420 I don't think

00:51:21.820 you're going to see

00:51:22.220 any dramatic decline

00:51:23.200 in immigration

00:51:23.740 and unless that

00:51:24.820 is taken control of

00:51:26.020 I don't see any light

00:51:27.800 at the end of the tunnel

00:51:28.660 in terms of

00:51:29.460 the greater struggle

00:51:30.960 of Britain

00:51:31.460 I do think that

00:51:32.780 in terms of wokery

00:51:34.140 and the education system

00:51:35.360 I do think that

00:51:36.000 there is a way

00:51:36.500 that we can actually

00:51:37.440 see light at the end

00:51:38.900 of the tunnel

00:51:39.380 because of the fact

00:51:40.120 that you've got a lot

00:51:40.700 of socially conservative

00:51:41.520 people coming in

00:51:42.380 who are going to reject

00:51:43.840 a lot of the woke values

00:51:46.240 which are being spouted

00:51:47.380 that's why I think

00:51:47.980 there's a bit of a hope

00:51:48.580 on that side

00:51:49.160 but demographics

00:51:49.960 absolutely is the greatest

00:51:51.220 challenge of our day

00:51:52.340 just before we wrap up

00:51:54.620 coming back to the

00:51:55.500 history side of things

00:51:56.540 one of the things

00:51:57.440 I've never really understood

00:51:58.440 is why historians

00:51:59.440 have gone along with this

00:52:00.500 I remember

00:52:01.240 I read this brilliant book

00:52:03.300 I was staying with a friend

00:52:04.420 and I picked up a book

00:52:05.220 off the shelf

00:52:05.720 called The People's History

00:52:06.660 of Britain

00:52:07.060 I don't remember

00:52:07.760 the author's name

00:52:08.920 but it was a female author 1.00

00:52:10.240 and I read it

00:52:11.780 I swallowed it

00:52:12.540 inhaled it in a couple of days

00:52:13.900 it was fantastic

00:52:14.700 and I then was like

00:52:17.360 oh I want to read more of these

00:52:18.460 so I went online

00:52:19.380 and I bought a book

00:52:20.120 called The People's History

00:52:20.940 of America

00:52:22.260 or the United States

00:52:23.120 by a guy called Howard Zinn

00:52:24.280 and I read it for about

00:52:25.640 two chapters

00:52:26.680 and I wanted to

00:52:27.800 throw up in the bin

00:52:28.940 and I ended up

00:52:29.900 putting the book in the bin

00:52:30.800 because it was just

00:52:31.920 this one-sided

00:52:32.800 America is all evil

00:52:33.860 there was no balance 0.98

00:52:34.780 there was no attempt

00:52:36.060 to present any objective

00:52:38.400 view of history

00:52:39.280 but it seems to me

00:52:41.260 like historians

00:52:42.840 you said it yourself

00:52:43.860 you know history departments

00:52:45.060 at universities

00:52:45.700 are absolutely filled

00:52:46.920 with people who think

00:52:47.780 in this way

00:52:48.400 how's that happen

00:52:49.680 because historians

00:52:50.380 are supposed to be

00:52:50.920 the custodians of the past

00:52:52.240 aren't you

00:52:52.560 that's been

00:52:53.280 you know

00:52:53.840 the greatest tragedy

00:52:55.340 in my view

00:52:56.800 personally

00:52:57.320 in terms of my profession

00:52:59.060 is to see

00:53:00.220 ideology

00:53:01.120 trump

00:53:01.800 objective truth

00:53:03.000 and the scientific method

00:53:04.360 in history

00:53:05.420 and the reason for it

00:53:06.520 is quite clear

00:53:07.180 the left have always

00:53:08.360 been better

00:53:09.060 at capturing the levers

00:53:10.480 of power

00:53:11.180 so in academic terms

00:53:13.060 that means the bureaucracy

00:53:14.340 and the administration

00:53:15.340 so the left have been

00:53:16.940 able to get themselves

00:53:18.000 onto the heads of departments

00:53:20.220 chairing committees

00:53:21.380 and much as you see

00:53:22.860 in the BBC

00:53:23.480 there's an element

00:53:24.620 of subconscious

00:53:25.260 but unconscious bias

00:53:26.380 in the hiring practices

00:53:27.360 but also deliberate

00:53:28.900 efforts made

00:53:29.960 to ensure that

00:53:30.940 when you know

00:53:31.440 conservative historians

00:53:32.620 or more objective historians

00:53:34.060 retire

00:53:34.520 that they're not replaced

00:53:35.820 with like-minded people

00:53:38.240 but you've just basically

00:53:39.580 seen this gradual growth

00:53:40.960 in the

00:53:41.480 in the

00:53:41.920 and it's not just in

00:53:43.060 it's not just in universities

00:53:44.160 it's also in secondary schools

00:53:45.720 as well

00:53:46.080 we see the same thing happening

00:53:47.540 where you have 90% of teachers

00:53:48.880 voting for left-wing parties

00:53:50.200 when I was at school

00:53:51.340 you had you know

00:53:52.020 a number of

00:53:52.960 extremely right-wing teachers

00:53:54.640 some of them

00:53:55.460 were you know

00:53:55.940 just come out

00:53:56.460 had come out of the war

00:53:57.420 as well

00:53:57.800 so old war types

00:53:58.600 and they were the guys

00:53:59.220 who would throw the chalk duster

00:54:00.660 at you and so forth

00:54:01.780 they've all

00:54:02.640 they've all

00:54:03.080 they've all gone

00:54:03.700 so

00:54:04.780 and also you've got to remember

00:54:05.980 the publishing industry

00:54:06.820 is very different now as well

00:54:08.160 you simply can't get books

00:54:09.320 published by traditional

00:54:10.340 mainstream university

00:54:11.380 academic publishers

00:54:12.260 and historians tend to use

00:54:13.840 academic publishers

00:54:14.680 for many of their works

00:54:16.540 and they're simply

00:54:17.100 getting rejected

00:54:17.880 and so it's

00:54:18.880 and of course

00:54:19.500 career progression

00:54:20.240 if you want to get ahead

00:54:21.160 in the university foundations

00:54:23.220 you need to get

00:54:23.880 to keep your head down

00:54:24.840 because you're not going

00:54:25.600 to get those promotions

00:54:26.460 and you won't get tenure necessarily

00:54:28.740 Raph it's been

00:54:30.320 an absolute pleasure

00:54:31.100 although depressing

00:54:31.860 as conversations

00:54:33.420 about the state of this country

00:54:34.660 often are on our show

00:54:35.600 thank you so much

00:54:36.640 for coming on

00:54:37.260 before we head on over

00:54:38.960 to our locals

00:54:39.620 where our supporters

00:54:40.500 get to ask you

00:54:41.260 their questions

00:54:42.000 we always end with

00:54:42.980 the same question

00:54:43.580 which is what's the one thing

00:54:44.560 we're not talking about

00:54:45.660 that we really should be

00:54:46.520 before Raph answers

00:54:47.920 the final question

00:54:48.840 at the end of the interview

00:54:50.580 make sure to head on over

00:54:51.940 to our locals

00:54:52.680 the link is in the description

00:54:54.360 where you'll be able

00:54:55.580 to see this

00:54:56.520 do history majors

00:54:57.900 do history majors have a poor

00:54:58.480 understanding of history

00:54:59.480 these days

00:55:00.080 if you're a conservative

00:55:01.340 PR would be an absolute nightmare

00:55:03.300 do you agree with King Charles' plan

00:55:05.500 for a slimmed down monarchy

00:55:06.780 would you think

00:55:07.920 it would diminish

00:55:08.460 its popularity

00:55:09.260 in the world

00:55:10.320 like the other monarchies

00:55:11.320 of Europe

00:55:11.760 well I would love to say

00:55:14.500 culture and demographics

00:55:15.460 but we've just spoken

00:55:16.300 about that

00:55:16.940 so I would say

00:55:17.820 oh well

00:55:18.180 far be it from me

00:55:19.220 to quote Tony Blair

00:55:20.140 education

00:55:21.260 education

00:55:22.580 education

00:55:23.260 because we don't understand

00:55:26.920 that there is no hope

00:55:28.080 for any chance

00:55:29.240 of saving this nation

00:55:30.600 or at least

00:55:31.280 restoring it

00:55:32.120 to some sort of balance

00:55:33.100 if we don't tackle

00:55:34.660 the teaching profession

00:55:35.940 and you can change

00:55:37.840 the curriculum

00:55:38.320 as many times

00:55:39.080 as you want to

00:55:39.740 but if you don't

00:55:40.680 actually change

00:55:41.460 the cadre

00:55:42.680 and the type of person

00:55:43.880 who's teaching

00:55:44.480 there is no hope

00:55:45.620 because children learn

00:55:46.500 by osmosis

00:55:47.400 so yeah

00:55:48.200 and tackling universities

00:55:49.200 is fine

00:55:49.820 and there's too much focus

00:55:51.080 about universities

00:55:51.920 we need to tackle

00:55:52.920 primary schools

00:55:53.700 and so forth

00:55:54.160 as I say

00:55:54.680 you know

00:55:55.300 if the hair is blue

00:55:56.980 there's nothing you can do

00:55:58.140 right

00:55:58.480 you need to go

00:55:59.800 for the younger generation

00:56:00.920 Aristotle said

00:56:01.980 give me a boy of seven

00:56:03.040 and I will show you the man

00:56:04.500 we need to understand

00:56:05.440 that it's children

00:56:06.520 who are being indoctrinated

00:56:07.520 at a very young age

00:56:08.560 we need to bring in

00:56:09.840 we need to have channels

00:56:11.480 for teachers

00:56:12.080 to come in

00:56:12.580 from other areas

00:56:13.400 so there used to be

00:56:14.780 a programme

00:56:15.140 for troops

00:56:15.620 for teachers

00:56:16.240 getting soldiers

00:56:17.680 to come into

00:56:18.300 the teaching profession

00:56:19.240 getting people

00:56:19.960 from the corporate world

00:56:20.960 and by that means

00:56:22.160 you'll be able

00:56:22.640 to introduce

00:56:23.240 more balance

00:56:23.900 into the teaching profession

00:56:24.860 we don't have a right

00:56:25.580 with teaching profession

00:56:26.300 we simply want balance

00:56:27.920 Rafe

00:56:29.200 thank you so much

00:56:29.880 for coming on

00:56:30.400 head on over

00:56:30.980 to Locals Now

00:56:31.660 where we ask Rafe

00:56:32.500 your questions

00:56:33.420 what do you consider

00:56:36.340 the five most significant

00:56:37.560 historical events

00:56:38.540 that affected

00:56:39.040 the cultural development

00:56:40.100 of the British Isles

00:56:41.060 in the last millennia plus

00:56:42.480 I love shopping for new jackets

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TRIGGERnometry - September 25, 2024

＂They're Lying About Your History＂ - Rafe Heydel-Mankoo

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