TRIGGERnometry - ＂They've Weaponised Guilt and Shame＂

00:00:00.000 You didn't like it, did you?

00:00:01.940 No, no.

00:00:02.280 You didn't like us.

00:00:03.300 I didn't.

00:00:05.060 You know what's hilarious?

00:00:06.480 I feel like I'm doing the rounds,

00:00:08.160 speaking to people that I didn't like

00:00:10.180 and being like, I love you now.

00:00:12.780 Please take me.

00:00:15.120 And I'll tell you why I didn't, KK.

00:00:18.220 It's because I knew that my story was going to have to change.

00:00:25.180 Hey, Constantine, are you feeling fragile?

00:00:27.260 Of course, I'm a full-blooded, toxic, straight white male.

00:00:31.400 Then I have the perfect book for you.

00:00:33.860 It's called Woke Fragility.

00:00:36.120 Oh, what's it about?

00:00:37.160 It's a satirical takedown of the woke movement,

00:00:40.300 poking fun at all the nonsense

00:00:42.320 and the ridiculous arguments we're forced to endure day after day.

00:00:47.840 Ah, so it's a parody of Robin DiAngelo's white fragility,

00:00:51.260 a favourite of middle-class white gimps everywhere.

00:00:53.740 There is nothing wrong with being a lower-middle-class white gimp.

00:00:57.500 Anyway, the great thing about the book

00:00:59.700 is that it's not gratuitous or incendiary.

00:01:02.700 It's a light-hearted and playful book

00:01:04.900 written by someone on the left

00:01:06.460 who's as incredulous at this idiocy as we are.

00:01:10.620 I'm guessing he hasn't been able to find a publisher

00:01:12.820 because, well, for the reasons that we all know.

00:01:15.760 So where do I get a copy for my one remaining woke friend?

00:01:19.340 Search Woke Fragility on Amazon

00:01:21.320 or just hit the link in the description.

00:01:23.500 All right, well, what happens if I don't read it?

00:01:25.420 I'll buy you a copy of Woke Fragility instead.

00:01:27.860 Get me a copy of Woke Fragility stat.

00:01:30.360 Finally, I've figured out what it takes to make him behave.

00:01:40.020 Hello and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:42.900 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:44.240 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:45.560 And this is the show for you

00:01:47.260 if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:51.560 I'm absolutely pumped for the guest we have for you today.

00:01:54.660 She's a writer, speaker and consultant.

00:01:57.800 Africa Brooke, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:59.380 Thank you so much.

00:02:00.420 Thank you.

00:02:02.740 Obviously, we've been speaking for a while

00:02:04.260 before starting to record,

00:02:06.000 but I'm very, very excited for this conversation

00:02:08.520 because I think there are so many parallels in our stories,

00:02:12.480 even though we're very different people.

00:02:15.640 And I'm just really excited that we get to speak about it here

00:02:18.540 because I admire everything you both do.

00:02:20.340 That's very kind of you.

00:02:21.480 And there was a bit of distancing as well.

00:02:23.240 Obviously, very different people.

00:02:24.760 We keep you over there.

00:02:26.640 Very different.

00:02:28.840 Very different.

00:02:29.520 She keeps looking at you as well.

00:02:31.080 We're very different, mate.

00:02:32.480 Just a quick glance at Francis Foster there.

00:02:34.700 No, Africa, it's a real pleasure to have you.

00:02:37.660 You know, there's a bit of a mutual admiration society

00:02:39.960 going on here, mutual appreciation thing.

00:02:42.660 But before we get into all of that,

00:02:44.600 for people who don't know you,

00:02:46.260 tell everybody who are you,

00:02:47.860 what has been your journey through life

00:02:49.180 because it has been a fascinating one.

00:02:51.000 It has.

00:02:51.660 It has.

00:02:52.200 And some people will be familiar with my story

00:02:54.900 because I do think our audiences

00:02:57.000 and our communities cross over a little bit,

00:02:59.060 but I know most people won't be.

00:03:01.340 But the work that I do today as a writer,

00:03:04.680 as a consultant, as a coach, as a speaker,

00:03:07.460 it all comes from about five years ago,

00:03:10.540 which is when I got sober.

00:03:11.640 And my journey to sobriety wasn't an easy one.

00:03:15.300 It wasn't me just making a decision

00:03:16.900 and then just fucking doing it.

00:03:18.860 It was a very grueling process.

00:03:22.600 And when I was 19 years old,

00:03:24.280 I realized that I had a very big problem

00:03:26.540 with blackout drinking, binge drinking,

00:03:29.060 which I know culturally in this country specifically

00:03:32.460 is almost seen like a rite of passage.

00:03:34.120 I don't know what it has been like for you,

00:03:36.380 but I knew from the very first time that I drank

00:03:40.580 that there was something that wasn't quite normal,

00:03:43.980 if you will,

00:03:44.660 because I blacked out from the very first moment.

00:03:47.600 And I blacked out pretty much every other time after

00:03:50.940 until I got sober at 24.

00:03:53.440 And I had tried seven times to get sober,

00:03:56.660 consciously seven times.

00:03:58.040 And I always say that this is not including the moments

00:04:01.740 where I said I'm never drinking again

00:04:03.680 or felt some kind of shame.

00:04:05.240 Seven times trying to get sober

00:04:08.580 and I relapsed every single time.

00:04:11.020 And in 2016 is when I had just exhausted myself

00:04:16.320 to the point of realizing that if I don't get sober now,

00:04:19.780 I'm not gonna make it to 25 years old.

00:04:22.000 I'm not gonna see another year of my life.

00:04:24.740 So again, it wasn't a profound romantic decision.

00:04:28.280 I didn't do it for myself and my wellbeing.

00:04:31.100 I was losing everyone in my life.

00:04:33.380 If I was becoming someone that I didn't even recognize,

00:04:36.700 the version of me that would come out

00:04:38.860 when I was blackout drinking

00:04:40.040 is a version that I wouldn't even be able to write.

00:04:43.980 But I had to apologize for her actions every single time.

00:04:47.940 And the thing that kept me

00:04:51.000 and has kept me sober from 2016 is the curiosity.

00:04:55.060 And even in the work that I do today,

00:04:58.660 curiosity is something I speak about so much.

00:05:00.800 And I'll tell you exactly what I mean by that.

00:05:03.320 I started to just wonder what is happening to me

00:05:07.500 on a brain-based level when I drink in this way.

00:05:10.400 What is keeping me in this destructive cycle?

00:05:14.040 What is keeping me in a cycle of shame,

00:05:17.360 feeling like I want to escape my reality

00:05:19.880 to a point of losing eight hours

00:05:22.140 because that's the longest that I've ever blacked out.

00:05:24.880 Eight hours.

00:05:26.580 And I remember actually,

00:05:27.980 and I'm sure I've shared this before,

00:05:29.200 I remember going to lunch with a friend.

00:05:30.960 We went to lunch in Soho.

00:05:32.780 I think it was a Monday.

00:05:34.600 And then I woke up a day and a half later in Surrey.

00:05:40.080 In Surrey.

00:05:40.720 She knows how to put it in her.

00:05:42.680 Not really, mate.

00:05:43.700 She ended up in Surrey.

00:05:46.040 I woke up and I'll just be very honest about this.

00:05:51.000 I woke up a day and a half later

00:05:53.140 doing coke at midday in Surrey.

00:05:55.820 I had no idea how I had got there

00:05:58.380 or my friend wasn't there.

00:06:00.780 I was with people that I had never seen before.

00:06:03.340 But this was just one incident of many.

00:06:06.560 But anyway, I started to get curious

00:06:09.420 about what was happening to me in terms of behavior.

00:06:11.540 And then I just got immersed into a world of psychology,

00:06:15.560 into a world of personal development,

00:06:17.980 into a world of just hearing different lecturers speaking,

00:06:21.300 different professors, different mentors sharing their stories.

00:06:24.680 I spoke to so many people who were also addicts.

00:06:27.780 That's not a term that I ever used for myself specifically.

00:06:31.700 But I did realize that I had a big issue with alcoholism.

00:06:36.260 So I started to wonder how I could use my own story,

00:06:41.500 not only to save myself,

00:06:42.860 but to maybe connect with other people

00:06:44.220 that are going through the same thing.

00:06:46.260 It's when I came across the concept of self-sabotage,

00:06:49.000 which is now a big part of my work.

00:06:51.020 It's my main area of focus.

00:06:52.840 Why do we get in our own way?

00:06:54.440 And five years on, I mean, I'm kind of jumping here,

00:07:00.020 but five years on, the work that I do now

00:07:02.500 is heavily influenced by my sobriety journey

00:07:05.000 and me wanting to understand human behavior,

00:07:07.720 our capacity for change that we can actually change

00:07:11.240 when we commit to a different story.

00:07:13.440 And also just understanding the psychology

00:07:15.540 and science behind all of that.

00:07:17.280 So that's what's led me to what I do.

00:07:19.360 That's one part of it.

00:07:20.160 And Frances has a lot of questions

00:07:21.620 and things she wants to discuss with you about that.

00:07:23.640 But also just to add another part,

00:07:25.580 and we talked about this before we started the show,

00:07:27.780 you know that for us, you know,

00:07:29.680 the way we do the show is we have conversations

00:07:31.900 that we find interesting.

00:07:33.800 And while I think everybody knows our particular stance

00:07:37.380 on wokeness and woke culture,

00:07:39.760 and we are not particularly keen to like,

00:07:42.440 just have that endless conversation over and over

00:07:44.660 because we're not even sure

00:07:45.500 that it's particularly productive.

00:07:47.060 Nonetheless, one part of your journey also

00:07:49.100 is that you wrote an open letter

00:07:50.660 talking about how you left the wokeness cult.

00:07:54.240 And I'm sure that had an impact on you as well, right?

00:07:56.540 Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:57.980 And the way that ties in,

00:08:00.180 and I'll get into the lesson,

00:08:01.200 but the way that ties into the work that I do now,

00:08:05.080 self-sabotage and understanding self-censorship

00:08:08.220 is because about two years ago,

00:08:11.340 it's when I started to move away

00:08:12.560 from looking at the individual.

00:08:13.940 Why does the individual sabotage?

00:08:15.800 Why did I censor myself?

00:08:17.100 Why do people censor themselves?

00:08:19.280 I started to see what was playing out in our culture.

00:08:22.580 And I realized that actually,

00:08:23.760 we might be witnessing a collective sabotage

00:08:26.440 where it's no longer just the individual

00:08:28.560 experiencing something

00:08:29.700 and having to work through it themselves.

00:08:31.760 We have groups of individuals

00:08:33.860 projecting their own internal happenings

00:08:36.720 onto an entire society.

00:08:39.240 So that's how my work has shifted into what I do now.

00:08:42.140 So the letter that I wrote

00:08:44.160 why I'm leaving the cult of wokeness

00:08:46.420 was me saying that I'm not playing that game anymore.

00:08:49.120 I'm not going to do it.

00:08:50.420 I'm not going to do it

00:08:51.200 because it started to make me sick

00:08:53.980 in a way that I can't even explain.

00:08:56.840 It wasn't even just me feeling emotionally

00:08:59.340 like actually something is not quite right.

00:09:02.300 But for whatever reason,

00:09:03.820 even though I've always been a very outspoken person,

00:09:06.480 there seems like there are some areas

00:09:08.420 that other people have decided

00:09:10.160 that I can't say anything on

00:09:12.700 or that I have to follow a very specific script.

00:09:16.600 And this script is based on my identity markers

00:09:20.080 as a black person, as a woman, et cetera, et cetera.

00:09:25.120 And then I just started to realize,

00:09:26.820 oh my goodness, I know all of this well.

00:09:29.580 But the thing is, I only know it well

00:09:31.000 in the sense of sobriety and drinking culture

00:09:33.700 and why we, again, get in our own way, et cetera.

00:09:37.500 But I realized that I was starting to see

00:09:40.200 the same things playing out in our culture

00:09:42.580 in a different way,

00:09:43.380 which is when I wrote that letter.

00:09:45.640 And what moved you to write the letter?

00:09:47.300 Was there a particular epiphany where you go,

00:09:50.120 I just can't do this anymore?

00:09:51.840 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:52.720 I would say 2020, which was, are you surprised?

00:09:57.860 Are you surprised?

00:10:00.260 I don't know, something a little bit weird

00:10:02.740 It happened in 2020.

00:10:04.020 I don't know what it was.

00:10:05.280 I don't know.

00:10:06.480 It was 2020 when, and to be even more specific,

00:10:11.760 the racial tensions that were happening,

00:10:14.500 especially in June,

00:10:16.160 and the level of dehumanization that I started to see.

00:10:20.780 And here's the thing.

00:10:22.640 When everything that happened in the US

00:10:25.300 happened with George Floyd, et cetera,

00:10:27.380 immediately I was on board.

00:10:28.900 I was on board in the sense

00:10:30.440 that something horrific had just happened

00:10:32.760 and injustice had taken place.

00:10:36.220 And as a black person,

00:10:39.000 the message that was essentially presented to me

00:10:42.380 was one where just by default,

00:10:47.740 I had to also see myself as victimized.

00:10:50.740 I did.

00:10:51.480 There wasn't any other way to look at it.

00:10:53.540 It wasn't a, something has happened.

00:10:55.640 And let's sort of look at it objectively.

00:10:57.660 I'm in a completely different country

00:10:59.200 with a different history.

00:11:00.460 I'm not saying it's a romantic history at all,

00:11:02.380 but it's a very different history to the US.

00:11:07.440 But there wasn't any objectivity.

00:11:09.620 There wasn't any room for critical thinking.

00:11:11.360 You just had to take on the fact

00:11:13.280 something has happened to a black person,

00:11:15.560 which means that it can happen to you

00:11:17.600 and you have to take on the exact same pain.

00:11:19.640 And I did.

00:11:20.180 And I was very frustrated

00:11:22.460 and I didn't even really know why.

00:11:25.560 And I started to see myself echo,

00:11:28.660 even in my own mind,

00:11:29.780 echo sentiments that I would have never

00:11:31.860 agreed with before.

00:11:33.980 For example, the idea that all white people are racist.

00:11:37.000 I have never in my entire life thought anything like,

00:11:40.300 to me, that doesn't make sense.

00:11:42.060 And I've said this many times,

00:11:43.380 but immediately what comes up for me is,

00:11:46.000 okay, what white people specifically

00:11:48.540 are we talking about?

00:11:49.460 Because a white person in the US

00:11:51.440 or Norway or South Africa or Kenya or Australia,

00:11:55.120 very different experiences of so-called whiteness, right?

00:12:01.060 But I didn't, there was no room

00:12:02.820 to even ask anything like that.

00:12:05.220 You had to echo what everyone else is saying

00:12:08.220 or else you are the enemy.

00:12:09.940 So I saw the division.

00:12:11.540 I really started to see the division

00:12:13.120 in a way I just hadn't before.

00:12:15.120 And I was buying into it myself.

00:12:18.540 And it took about a month

00:12:20.060 for me to almost snap out of that

00:12:24.320 and start to just think to myself,

00:12:28.800 what the fuck am I doing?

00:12:30.640 What am I actually participating in?

00:12:33.060 What am I doing?

00:12:34.820 This is not me.

00:12:37.340 But again, I felt very alone in that

00:12:41.160 because no one else was having

00:12:42.820 any kind of conversation like that.

00:12:44.380 I think the only person that would have been

00:12:46.520 having any conversation similar to that

00:12:49.980 is Ayesha Akanbi.

00:12:51.540 I really can't think of anyone else

00:12:53.380 that was openly having

00:12:55.340 any kinds of discussions like that.

00:12:57.280 And in that same year,

00:12:58.640 you both interviewed her actually.

00:13:02.560 So I would say the summer of 2020

00:13:05.760 really was the nail in the coffin for me.

00:13:08.860 But there were a lot of things

00:13:10.020 that had been coming up

00:13:10.900 for a couple of years before then.

00:13:12.300 And do you think your sobriety

00:13:14.140 played a massive part in this?

00:13:15.800 Because as someone who doesn't drink,

00:13:17.120 I gave up alcohol in 2011.

00:13:19.900 Right.

00:13:20.640 And the part of giving something up

00:13:24.240 is a realization

00:13:25.260 that you can't live with it anymore.

00:13:28.520 Yeah.

00:13:29.040 And you can't deceive yourself any longer.

00:13:31.800 And once you start that process

00:13:34.280 of being honest with yourself

00:13:36.140 and practicing sort of a form

00:13:37.840 of radical honesty

00:13:38.800 where you see your life for what it is,

00:13:41.400 once you start looking at the world

00:13:43.160 through that lens,

00:13:44.700 you can't stop doing it.

00:13:46.360 Oh, absolutely.

00:13:47.520 And I'm so, gosh,

00:13:49.360 I'm so fucking glad

00:13:50.420 that you just said that

00:13:51.420 because I always come back

00:13:55.840 to my sobriety.

00:13:56.820 I think with sobriety,

00:13:57.940 that journey,

00:13:58.340 it gave me a very useful framework

00:14:00.180 that can be applied

00:14:01.040 to so many things.

00:14:02.600 And radical honesty

00:14:03.700 is one of those things.

00:14:04.800 And again,

00:14:05.260 it's not a romantic process

00:14:07.660 because I think to say that term,

00:14:09.420 it can sound like

00:14:10.060 it's this kind of fluffy,

00:14:11.500 self-help.

00:14:12.100 No.

00:14:12.980 It means that

00:14:13.860 you have to be in integrity

00:14:16.240 even when you don't fucking want to.

00:14:18.540 And me writing that letter,

00:14:20.220 why I'm leaving the cult of wokeness,

00:14:22.180 me saying that

00:14:22.740 I'm not going to dehumanize white people.

00:14:25.220 I'm not going to use

00:14:26.340 the exact same framework

00:14:27.620 that was used many years ago

00:14:29.520 in segregation

00:14:30.220 onto another race

00:14:31.520 in the name of justice.

00:14:32.740 I'm not going to do that.

00:14:33.720 And me rejecting the narrative

00:14:36.300 that I'm a victim by default

00:14:38.720 because of my skin color,

00:14:40.420 but it's kind of rebranded

00:14:41.740 in this empowering way,

00:14:43.760 which is,

00:14:44.440 it's really weird, isn't it?

00:14:46.200 It's all,

00:14:46.620 I always call it,

00:14:48.340 it's just rebranded tactics.

00:14:51.940 All of it,

00:14:52.360 if you really just look at it,

00:14:53.440 it's just rebranded

00:14:54.340 as something new,

00:14:55.080 but it's the exact same thing.

00:14:56.780 Me rejecting all of that,

00:14:58.100 there was nothing for me to gain.

00:14:59.820 Nothing for me to gain at all.

00:15:01.420 But because I'm so committed

00:15:03.800 to being in integrity,

00:15:05.120 no matter what,

00:15:06.200 that letter was going to fucking happen.

00:15:08.180 And it took,

00:15:08.680 it took about two years

00:15:09.780 for me to actually get it out.

00:15:11.980 But I knew that I had to,

00:15:13.300 and yeah,

00:15:13.740 I do think my sobriety

00:15:15.300 really fueled that process.

00:15:17.100 And you've come a long way

00:15:18.420 because you mentioned

00:15:19.820 having watched our interview

00:15:21.620 with Aisha,

00:15:22.100 that can be at the peak

00:15:23.460 of the racial tensions.

00:15:25.600 And I think that's the best way

00:15:26.660 to describe it.

00:15:28.540 You didn't like it,

00:15:30.000 did you?

00:15:30.560 No, no.

00:15:30.900 You didn't like us.

00:15:31.940 I didn't.

00:15:33.760 You know what's hilarious?

00:15:35.120 I feel like I'm doing the rounds,

00:15:36.800 speaking to people

00:15:37.700 that I didn't like

00:15:38.800 and being like,

00:15:39.480 I love you now.

00:15:41.480 Please take me.

00:15:42.520 And I'll tell you why

00:15:45.060 I didn't, KK.

00:15:47.020 It's because

00:15:47.800 I knew that my story

00:15:51.040 was going to have to change.

00:15:52.880 I knew that my story

00:15:54.220 was going to have to change.

00:15:55.440 I knew that I was going to have to

00:15:58.160 really sit with the cognitive dissonance

00:16:01.500 that I felt

00:16:02.020 and the discomfort

00:16:02.780 because the information

00:16:03.800 that I was taking in,

00:16:04.980 it made sense.

00:16:06.080 Everything that you

00:16:07.620 and Aisha were talking about,

00:16:10.480 it made sense objectively.

00:16:13.340 You weren't speaking

00:16:15.540 about your own emotions

00:16:16.980 and your own feelings,

00:16:18.300 things that I think are useful,

00:16:19.460 by the way.

00:16:19.920 I'm not of the thinking

00:16:21.120 that they're useless,

00:16:22.040 but I think there is a time

00:16:23.420 and a place

00:16:23.880 with certain conversations.

00:16:25.540 What you were saying

00:16:26.240 made logistical sense,

00:16:28.160 but it didn't align

00:16:32.460 with the way that I felt

00:16:33.580 because I felt so angry.

00:16:35.380 I had been told

00:16:36.120 that I need to feel angry

00:16:37.460 on the behalf of all of the people

00:16:39.780 that share my identity

00:16:41.140 and I was okay with that

00:16:42.540 for a time

00:16:43.500 until I was told

00:16:45.460 all of these other things

00:16:46.500 that I also need to do

00:16:47.600 that I didn't sit well with me.

00:16:50.000 So even though I didn't like

00:16:53.300 what I was hearing

00:16:55.100 from all of you,

00:16:57.020 speaking about statistics

00:16:58.780 and just speaking about

00:17:00.020 some of the contradictions,

00:17:01.580 et cetera,

00:17:02.160 I sat with it.

00:17:03.660 I sat with it.

00:17:04.340 I didn't reject it straight away.

00:17:06.620 For whatever reason,

00:17:07.860 I kept coming back

00:17:08.800 to the conversations

00:17:09.620 that you had

00:17:10.500 and looking at

00:17:11.340 what else you've been talking about.

00:17:13.700 And I do remember

00:17:16.180 feeling so jarred

00:17:17.800 by just how audacious

00:17:20.340 you both are,

00:17:21.400 which I think is such

00:17:22.180 a beautiful thing,

00:17:23.020 but just how bold you are

00:17:24.400 and how unapologetic you were.

00:17:26.740 And it was very refreshing

00:17:28.020 because I guess I had been

00:17:29.220 in so many echo chambers

00:17:30.340 where you have to apologize

00:17:31.800 for your existence

00:17:34.100 and you have to,

00:17:35.560 you know,

00:17:36.440 preface everything with

00:17:37.580 as a cis white this,

00:17:39.780 as a,

00:17:40.460 and you both just refused

00:17:42.000 to buy into that.

00:17:42.980 And that was the process

00:17:43.940 that I was in,

00:17:44.680 saying, no,

00:17:45.760 I'm not doing that.

00:17:47.580 So it was very jarring,

00:17:49.280 but also it was very compelling,

00:17:52.820 which is why I kept coming,

00:17:53.920 which is why,

00:17:54.640 look where I am.

00:17:56.080 So what pissed you off the most

00:17:58.080 about the conversations

00:17:59.080 that we were having?

00:18:00.140 I'm serious,

00:18:00.900 but that's the interesting thing

00:18:02.540 is like,

00:18:02.820 what is it that really like,

00:18:04.400 oh.

00:18:05.200 The truth,

00:18:06.840 the hearing the truth,

00:18:08.100 because again,

00:18:10.540 and I didn't realize

00:18:12.720 that subconsciously

00:18:13.880 I was finding myself

00:18:14.880 in echo chambers

00:18:15.620 where the truth wasn't welcome,

00:18:16.860 or at least a certain truth

00:18:18.420 is welcome.

00:18:19.520 And there are unspoken rules.

00:18:21.120 We all know that

00:18:22.000 this is what you speak about.

00:18:23.140 This is what you don't speak about.

00:18:24.760 You don't point out contradictions,

00:18:26.760 especially if you're pointing out

00:18:28.640 contradictions to do

00:18:29.760 with a certain race

00:18:31.720 or a certain community

00:18:33.060 or a certain whatever,

00:18:34.300 because there's an unspoken hierarchy,

00:18:35.780 which doesn't fucking exist

00:18:37.460 in the real world.

00:18:39.460 So I think it was hearing truths

00:18:42.700 that I'm not really used to hearing,

00:18:44.720 or at least don't want to hear.

00:18:46.580 I think it's inconvenient, right?

00:18:49.000 So I think that's what sort of

00:18:50.920 pissed me off the most,

00:18:52.200 if you will,

00:18:52.640 but I don't think it really,

00:18:54.100 really did.

00:18:54.940 And as I said,

00:18:57.280 I think I just had to change my story

00:18:59.160 and a part of me didn't want to,

00:19:00.540 because it's much easier

00:19:01.460 to keep yourself safe

00:19:03.000 in groups where everyone

00:19:04.520 says the same thing.

00:19:05.720 No one disagrees with you.

00:19:08.400 But at the same time,

00:19:09.560 there's our hypervigilance

00:19:10.760 because you have things

00:19:12.260 you really want to say,

00:19:13.480 but you have to keep them to yourself.

00:19:15.460 You do, don't you?

00:19:16.460 We do live in a society

00:19:17.800 which is hypervigilant

00:19:18.880 and obviously social media

00:19:20.120 plays a part of it.

00:19:21.060 Yes, yes.

00:19:21.920 How did you feel

00:19:22.560 that impact your life?

00:19:24.940 You know what?

00:19:27.860 I would say the hypervigilance piece

00:19:29.640 didn't really impact me specifically,

00:19:32.200 but I could see it with other people.

00:19:34.660 I could see that behind closed doors,

00:19:37.700 because I have always been

00:19:39.080 a very, very open person.

00:19:40.720 And with the things

00:19:41.260 that I've been speaking about

00:19:42.280 in terms of self-sabotage

00:19:43.700 for the past five years,

00:19:45.880 naturally, I have to be open.

00:19:48.380 And I think as someone

00:19:49.640 that has experienced

00:19:50.600 just so much fuckery

00:19:52.960 with sobriety

00:19:54.220 and blacking out

00:19:55.260 and just doing things

00:19:56.320 you would never normally do,

00:19:58.580 there's a level of transparency

00:20:00.800 that comes with having

00:20:02.000 to tell that story anyway.

00:20:03.780 So I think because of that,

00:20:06.200 a lot of people trusted me,

00:20:07.620 which meant behind the scenes,

00:20:09.020 I would get to see

00:20:09.880 what people really think.

00:20:11.680 I would get to see that

00:20:12.960 you have this thing

00:20:14.220 that you want to say,

00:20:15.160 but you're so afraid

00:20:16.100 of even just asking the question,

00:20:18.800 not stating an opinion,

00:20:19.820 asking a question.

00:20:23.480 And when I would ask people why,

00:20:25.320 even some of my own clients,

00:20:27.100 they would tell me that,

00:20:28.420 you know,

00:20:28.780 they have some of their followers

00:20:30.440 messaging them,

00:20:31.320 asking them,

00:20:31.880 why are you following this person?

00:20:34.100 I expected more from you.

00:20:35.760 I'm disappointed

00:20:36.500 that you are following

00:20:38.240 an individual on social media.

00:20:40.420 So the hypervigilance piece,

00:20:41.860 I saw it more so

00:20:43.560 from the outside looking in,

00:20:44.920 not experiencing it firsthand.

00:20:47.220 But I wanted to know as well,

00:20:48.520 if you both have experienced

00:20:50.620 that to some degree,

00:20:51.960 where you feel like

00:20:52.520 you're being watched.

00:20:53.580 Oh, yeah.

00:20:56.780 I'll tell you a story.

00:20:58.220 I was,

00:20:59.040 I was,

00:20:59.720 I remember

00:21:00.420 a friend

00:21:01.940 called me one day

00:21:04.180 and he goes,

00:21:05.200 Francis,

00:21:06.300 and this,

00:21:06.740 I was in the comedy industry,

00:21:07.740 which is ultra woke,

00:21:09.100 blah, blah, blah.

00:21:09.620 We know that.

00:21:10.700 I didn't know that,

00:21:11.820 by the way.

00:21:12.320 Didn't you?

00:21:13.220 No.

00:21:14.140 I think I first heard it

00:21:15.640 from both of you

00:21:16.460 and Joe Rogan speaking

00:21:17.940 about it a little bit,

00:21:18.820 but I really didn't know.

00:21:20.480 Yeah.

00:21:20.740 Oh, it completely is.

00:21:21.860 It completely is.

00:21:22.480 All the liberal arts,

00:21:23.440 whether it's theatre,

00:21:24.360 whether it's TV,

00:21:26.160 they've all gone to that side.

00:21:27.860 And I remember he called me up

00:21:29.220 and he goes to me,

00:21:30.400 I've been looking

00:21:31.680 at a lot of your tweets

00:21:32.800 and you're sounding

00:21:33.680 like a conservative.

00:21:36.400 And, you know,

00:21:37.280 you might want

00:21:37.940 to have a look at that.

00:21:39.320 And I remember

00:21:40.320 I was in a bad mood.

00:21:41.500 I think I had an argument

00:21:42.200 with my girlfriend

00:21:42.780 and I said the words,

00:21:43.940 I don't give a fuck anymore.

00:21:45.400 Because I just,

00:21:47.840 why is it wrong

00:21:49.320 that you have

00:21:49.820 certain conservative opinions?

00:21:51.500 I have opinions

00:21:52.120 that are liberal,

00:21:52.740 I have opinions

00:21:53.240 that are conservative.

00:21:54.260 I don't identify

00:21:55.460 with other side

00:21:56.220 because to me

00:21:56.820 that's tribalism

00:21:57.740 and then you're not

00:21:59.140 being authentic anymore.

00:22:00.660 What you're doing

00:22:01.400 is being part of a tribe

00:22:02.920 and once you do that,

00:22:03.920 you lose your sense

00:22:04.800 of who you are,

00:22:05.520 your sense of self.

00:22:06.400 Right.

00:22:07.260 But to me,

00:22:08.800 I just found that shocking

00:22:10.400 that someone would look

00:22:11.420 through my tweets,

00:22:12.160 there's got enough time

00:22:13.080 in the day,

00:22:13.520 number one.

00:22:13.980 to look through the tweets

00:22:16.580 and going,

00:22:17.840 oh,

00:22:18.180 you know,

00:22:18.540 you said this,

00:22:19.240 you did this.

00:22:20.380 And when I had a bus stop

00:22:21.680 with the same person,

00:22:23.380 you know,

00:22:23.520 remember he called me

00:22:24.380 and he goes to me,

00:22:25.480 you're going to lose

00:22:26.460 a lot of your liberal friends.

00:22:28.220 And he was right,

00:22:29.180 to be fair to him,

00:22:30.460 he was right.

00:22:31.620 It's all right,

00:22:31.960 mate,

00:22:32.060 you've got me.

00:22:35.420 It's me,

00:22:36.140 Africa and Anton.

00:22:37.320 That is your social circle.

00:22:38.980 That's what you need.

00:22:39.860 But that's where we were.

00:22:43.960 And the same,

00:22:44.460 we were telling you the story

00:22:45.400 before we started

00:22:46.180 about a friend of ours

00:22:47.240 who's not really,

00:22:49.080 you know,

00:22:49.420 he's just a comedian

00:22:50.620 who happens to have

00:22:51.720 all sorts of different opinions.

00:22:54.240 And he got another comedian

00:22:55.960 who said to him,

00:22:57.100 the optics of your tweets lately

00:22:59.000 are right wing

00:23:00.180 or whatever the phrase was.

00:23:01.640 The industry that we come from,

00:23:03.040 unfortunately,

00:23:03.580 it's a very small circle

00:23:04.860 and it's everybody's

00:23:06.900 watching everybody

00:23:07.620 all the time.

00:23:08.740 Right.

00:23:09.160 To the point where

00:23:09.920 when I was sort of

00:23:11.500 in the place

00:23:12.140 that you described

00:23:12.900 where you came across people

00:23:14.300 who were doing stuff online

00:23:15.480 that you thought,

00:23:16.420 oh,

00:23:16.520 I'm learning something.

00:23:18.360 I remember the exact moment

00:23:19.540 for me when it hit me.

00:23:21.000 I watched Larry Elder,

00:23:22.460 who we've since had on the show,

00:23:24.720 on Dave Rubin.

00:23:26.060 And he did exactly

00:23:27.280 what you were saying

00:23:28.200 you saw with us

00:23:29.060 and Aisha

00:23:29.440 where he just went

00:23:30.640 fact,

00:23:31.320 fact,

00:23:31.720 fact,

00:23:32.100 stat,

00:23:32.420 stat,

00:23:32.920 stat,

00:23:33.280 stat,

00:23:33.540 like only Larry can do.

00:23:35.980 And I was like,

00:23:36.980 oh.

00:23:37.860 And then I was like,

00:23:38.880 shit,

00:23:39.180 I now have to believe this

00:23:40.180 because I can see

00:23:40.840 that it's true

00:23:41.580 but I know the price

00:23:43.920 for that.

00:23:44.860 That's it.

00:23:45.400 So I didn't like

00:23:46.880 Dave Rubin's

00:23:48.440 like Facebook page

00:23:49.600 for two years

00:23:50.460 and I don't watch much

00:23:51.580 of Dave's channel

00:23:52.200 because we're doing this now

00:23:53.340 and, you know,

00:23:53.700 he's gone in his own direction,

00:23:55.080 we've gone in our own direction,

00:23:56.260 whatever.

00:23:56.860 But at the time,

00:23:57.800 what he was doing

00:23:58.680 was groundbreaking

00:23:59.260 and I remember watching it

00:24:01.100 and being terrified.

00:24:02.580 I wouldn't even subscribe

00:24:04.640 to his channel on YouTube

00:24:06.020 and there's people

00:24:07.460 who do that

00:24:07.900 with trigonometry.

00:24:08.980 There's people like,

00:24:10.700 I was chatting to Zuby

00:24:11.600 about this the other day

00:24:12.580 and he reckons

00:24:14.060 his Twitter following

00:24:14.900 is twice what it is

00:24:15.840 and he's probably right

00:24:16.680 because there's lots of people

00:24:17.840 who are afraid

00:24:18.780 to follow the wrong person.

00:24:20.300 Yes.

00:24:20.860 Right?

00:24:21.240 Yes.

00:24:21.660 And I think

00:24:22.420 the vast majority of people

00:24:24.360 who know they have something

00:24:25.440 to lose,

00:24:26.600 who know that they're going

00:24:27.620 to be punished at work,

00:24:28.800 who are going to be fired,

00:24:29.860 their opportunities

00:24:30.460 are going to be curtailed

00:24:31.520 and it's, you know,

00:24:32.780 of course it's the creative arts

00:24:34.480 but it's also,

00:24:35.220 it's publishing,

00:24:36.360 it's the media,

00:24:38.320 it's politics to a large extent.

00:24:40.180 You know,

00:24:40.360 are you following the wrong person?

00:24:41.740 Are you associating

00:24:42.560 with the wrong people?

00:24:43.700 We've gone into,

00:24:44.480 we went into this thing

00:24:45.440 and I don't know,

00:24:46.060 maybe tell me

00:24:46.540 what you think about it

00:24:47.400 but there was a point

00:24:48.180 where we just went

00:24:48.920 into this sort of crazy game

00:24:50.920 that I call

00:24:51.480 six degrees of white supremacy

00:24:53.060 which is,

00:24:54.040 you talk to us

00:24:54.940 and we talk to this person

00:24:56.040 and he once stood

00:24:57.140 next to that person

00:24:58.020 who was walking a dog

00:24:58.960 and then suddenly

00:25:00.400 you are that person

00:25:01.720 six degrees of separation away.

00:25:03.680 You are the white supremacist

00:25:05.080 because you once talked to the,

00:25:07.140 you know what I mean?

00:25:07.960 It's insane.

00:25:08.620 That's I think the world we live in

00:25:09.900 and with what you talk about

00:25:11.160 with self-censorship,

00:25:12.060 that seems to me

00:25:12.740 to be really the key piece here.

00:25:14.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:25:15.260 Absolutely.

00:25:15.880 And you know what?

00:25:16.520 I always think of it,

00:25:17.860 it's the exact thing

00:25:19.560 that you just outlined.

00:25:21.840 I think of it

00:25:22.620 as cancellation by proximity.

00:25:24.360 That's the sort of world

00:25:27.200 that we're in right now

00:25:28.360 and I also receive messages

00:25:30.940 from people saying,

00:25:32.480 Africa,

00:25:33.860 I would love to share

00:25:35.660 your Instagram Live

00:25:36.960 or your podcast episode

00:25:38.180 or your post

00:25:39.220 but I know that if I do,

00:25:41.360 I'm going to be,

00:25:42.700 yeah,

00:25:43.360 I'm going to get it

00:25:44.800 from the mob online

00:25:46.020 and if you ask yourself,

00:25:47.840 I mean,

00:25:48.100 go onto my social media,

00:25:49.600 what the hell

00:25:50.400 am I even saying?

00:25:51.460 I'm advocating for,

00:25:53.420 hello people,

00:25:54.040 can we remember

00:25:55.480 that there's a fucking

00:25:56.340 middle ground?

00:25:57.680 That's it.

00:25:58.560 That's it.

00:25:59.460 Right?

00:25:59.940 Yeah.

00:26:00.440 Just advocating

00:26:01.540 for nuanced conversations.

00:26:03.660 Can we understand

00:26:05.220 the context

00:26:06.020 before we buy into

00:26:07.500 a three-minute clip?

00:26:09.480 Those are the conversations

00:26:10.480 that I'm having

00:26:11.180 that we don't have to pick

00:26:12.760 between pro or anti,

00:26:14.900 white or black,

00:26:15.980 with us or against us.

00:26:17.160 So many of us,

00:26:18.340 and I would argue

00:26:18.960 that the majority

00:26:19.680 are in that middle ground.

00:26:21.560 We're in the grey area.

00:26:23.820 But it feels like

00:26:25.180 to even say that

00:26:26.600 puts you

00:26:27.880 in a certain position.

00:26:30.120 And to me,

00:26:30.720 that's fucking crazy.

00:26:32.760 And that is the nature

00:26:34.060 of self-censorship

00:26:34.960 when it comes to the point of

00:26:36.360 it doesn't even take

00:26:38.000 an external mob

00:26:39.080 to tell you

00:26:40.180 that you can't say that.

00:26:41.160 It's the mob in your mind.

00:26:42.720 And that is the most

00:26:44.140 dangerous thing

00:26:45.520 where you start to

00:26:47.380 filter

00:26:48.240 every single thought,

00:26:50.080 every single action,

00:26:51.040 every single idea,

00:26:52.500 through what the mob

00:26:53.580 will accept.

00:26:54.580 That's frightening.

00:26:56.100 It's terrifying.

00:26:57.260 It's terrifying.

00:26:58.340 I remember my girlfriend

00:26:59.080 went to a comedy night

00:27:00.280 and she came back

00:27:02.520 and she's really into,

00:27:04.200 you know,

00:27:04.560 more controversial comedians

00:27:06.440 like Stan Hope,

00:27:07.500 Doug Stan Hope,

00:27:08.060 people like this.

00:27:09.140 And I said to her,

00:27:09.820 what was it like?

00:27:10.380 Did you enjoy it, my love?

00:27:11.180 And she went,

00:27:12.200 I just found it really boring

00:27:13.580 because no one was saying

00:27:15.720 anything interesting.

00:27:16.620 No one was actually

00:27:17.820 pushing the boundaries.

00:27:19.280 And I said,

00:27:19.760 but you can't blame them

00:27:21.500 because that's the system.

00:27:23.600 That's the industry.

00:27:24.920 If you do push boundaries,

00:27:26.500 if you do,

00:27:27.160 for instance,

00:27:27.640 go and do a joke

00:27:28.600 about BLM

00:27:29.280 where you take the piss

00:27:30.320 out of BLM,

00:27:30.960 you ain't playing

00:27:31.460 that gig again.

00:27:32.760 It's really that simple.

00:27:33.740 I mean,

00:27:33.960 it would be a fucking

00:27:34.980 great last gig.

00:27:36.560 Go out with a bang.

00:27:38.220 But you're right.

00:27:39.480 And that's in many ways,

00:27:40.540 I think,

00:27:40.800 why we started Trigonometry

00:27:41.940 because that mob

00:27:43.620 in your head

00:27:44.300 that you're talking about,

00:27:46.140 every comedian

00:27:47.080 in this country

00:27:47.920 who is not already

00:27:49.520 a multi-millionaire,

00:27:50.960 super successful,

00:27:52.280 and even many of them,

00:27:54.120 we've all got

00:27:54.900 that mob in our mind now.

00:27:56.580 Everybody.

00:27:57.620 Everybody.

00:27:58.280 I remember,

00:27:58.840 I told the story

00:27:59.640 before I think once.

00:28:01.120 There was a comedian

00:28:01.840 when I used to do comedy.

00:28:03.660 We did a gig together,

00:28:04.700 Top Secret,

00:28:05.440 Best Club in London

00:28:06.180 in my opinion.

00:28:07.420 And I always used to talk

00:28:08.460 about political

00:28:09.120 and cultural stuff

00:28:09.960 as a comedian.

00:28:10.620 That's who I am.

00:28:11.920 That's what interested me.

00:28:13.080 And I came off stage

00:28:13.980 and he went,

00:28:14.540 oh man,

00:28:14.960 wow,

00:28:15.160 I love the fact

00:28:15.880 that you do this.

00:28:17.360 I'd love to do that.

00:28:18.400 And I was like,

00:28:18.700 well,

00:28:18.900 that's great.

00:28:19.620 You know,

00:28:19.920 like,

00:28:20.200 let's do some writing

00:28:21.140 or whatever.

00:28:21.620 And he was like,

00:28:22.020 oh no,

00:28:22.300 no,

00:28:22.400 I couldn't do that.

00:28:23.680 And I was like,

00:28:24.040 why?

00:28:24.640 And he went,

00:28:24.960 well,

00:28:25.240 as a straight,

00:28:25.900 why?

00:28:26.200 And I was like,

00:28:26.540 oh.

00:28:28.400 You know what I call that?

00:28:29.660 I call it the script.

00:28:31.020 Yeah.

00:28:31.300 I call it the script

00:28:32.320 because when I started

00:28:34.100 to pull myself

00:28:34.900 out of all of that

00:28:35.740 to make sense

00:28:36.640 of some of the things

00:28:37.440 that were happening,

00:28:38.140 I just had to

00:28:39.100 sort of just

00:28:41.140 label certain things

00:28:42.920 in a certain way

00:28:43.660 so I can remind myself

00:28:44.800 not to get sucked in.

00:28:46.380 And that,

00:28:47.120 I always refer to it

00:28:48.660 as the script

00:28:49.900 because

00:28:50.460 it's like you're given

00:28:53.160 this role

00:28:54.000 that you have to play

00:28:54.860 and you don't get to decide

00:28:56.020 whether you play it or not.

00:28:57.020 Your identity markers

00:28:58.420 pick out the role for you.

00:29:00.820 And when I started

00:29:02.100 to see how many people,

00:29:03.520 especially women,

00:29:04.520 for some reason,

00:29:06.640 and I'm really looking

00:29:07.460 into this actually,

00:29:08.260 slight tangent,

00:29:08.920 but I'm trying to do

00:29:10.080 a lot of research

00:29:10.960 to see why

00:29:12.140 it seems as if

00:29:13.580 it's mainly women

00:29:14.480 that buy into this culture.

00:29:16.380 I find that piece

00:29:17.520 very interesting.

00:29:18.040 I have some theories for you

00:29:18.820 that are not going to go down

00:29:19.940 well with people.

00:29:22.380 I find it very interesting

00:29:24.180 and it made me think

00:29:25.400 of something

00:29:25.840 Jordan Peterson

00:29:26.620 said a while ago

00:29:28.100 and I've seen some research

00:29:29.600 on this as well

00:29:30.500 that with women

00:29:32.320 mainly

00:29:32.960 kind of tend to go

00:29:34.700 for reputational damage

00:29:36.460 instead of physical

00:29:38.120 and that maybe plays a part

00:29:40.040 into why we see women

00:29:41.460 mainly kind of spearheading

00:29:43.460 a lot of what we see

00:29:44.840 because I've been looking

00:29:45.480 into this for the past year.

00:29:46.720 I think there is

00:29:47.520 sort of a gender aspect

00:29:49.320 to it.

00:29:50.400 Massively.

00:29:50.800 Massively, right?

00:29:52.620 So if anyone's listening

00:29:54.320 and they have some kind

00:29:55.280 of thoughts around that,

00:29:56.960 useful thoughts around that,

00:29:58.860 that would be good.

00:30:00.860 I mean, speaking of Jordan,

00:30:02.000 you're looking very,

00:30:03.300 you looked a bit scared

00:30:04.780 for a second there

00:30:05.580 about what I'm going to say.

00:30:06.400 It was a face of wonder.

00:30:07.800 It was a face of saying,

00:30:09.100 huh?

00:30:09.340 Well, I give you

00:30:10.720 a couple of pieces

00:30:11.440 that maybe are relevant here.

00:30:13.860 Number one,

00:30:14.480 as we know

00:30:15.020 from the psychological research,

00:30:16.920 women are more prone

00:30:17.860 to negative emotion

00:30:19.080 and emotion in general.

00:30:21.000 Yeah.

00:30:21.300 Just fact,

00:30:22.660 statistically speaking.

00:30:24.160 And if you think

00:30:24.820 about this ideology

00:30:26.320 and the cognitive dissonance

00:30:28.500 that we all experienced

00:30:29.620 that you were describing earlier

00:30:30.940 when we were sort of

00:30:31.800 confronted by facts

00:30:33.940 versus our own feeling,

00:30:35.200 if feelings are higher priority

00:30:38.680 for you as an individual

00:30:40.080 because of your hormones

00:30:42.020 and whatever,

00:30:43.580 that will be more difficult

00:30:45.240 to overcome with facts,

00:30:46.960 right?

00:30:47.320 Or with statistics or whatever

00:30:48.760 because your feelings

00:30:49.600 take a higher priority.

00:30:50.980 Yeah.

00:30:51.260 Negative feelings

00:30:52.220 and also women

00:30:53.740 are more empathetic

00:30:54.500 and compassionate.

00:30:55.300 So if you weaponize empathy,

00:30:57.980 as I've talked about

00:30:58.820 in the past,

00:30:59.340 weaponizing empathy,

00:31:00.900 you're saying,

00:31:01.820 look,

00:31:02.020 I have empathy

00:31:02.980 for people who are suffering,

00:31:04.380 right?

00:31:04.700 We all do.

00:31:05.760 Now, if I come along

00:31:06.660 and go,

00:31:06.980 well, look,

00:31:07.260 these people have been oppressed

00:31:08.400 for millions of years

00:31:09.540 and whatever,

00:31:11.140 that draws people in

00:31:12.240 and it's weaponizing

00:31:13.720 their empathy against them

00:31:14.660 because they then

00:31:15.480 can't ask questions.

00:31:16.620 You have to accept

00:31:18.000 the narrative, right?

00:31:19.040 You can't go,

00:31:19.800 so when you say

00:31:20.800 you've been oppressed

00:31:21.900 for a million years,

00:31:22.900 well, actually,

00:31:23.400 human beings haven't existed

00:31:24.440 that long.

00:31:25.380 Yeah.

00:31:26.700 So that's part of it

00:31:27.960 and the other thing

00:31:29.120 I think about it

00:31:29.880 about as well,

00:31:30.920 women tend to be

00:31:31.620 more communitarian.

00:31:32.580 They care more about

00:31:33.440 fostering community.

00:31:35.660 If you think about

00:31:36.180 the stereotypical

00:31:37.200 grand narrative

00:31:38.380 mum and dad,

00:31:39.980 right,

00:31:40.400 in a healthy way,

00:31:42.300 the mum is the one

00:31:43.300 that keeps everybody

00:31:44.200 getting along

00:31:44.900 and the dad is maybe

00:31:45.800 the one that pushes you

00:31:47.000 and that sort of thing.

00:31:48.220 Do you know what I mean?

00:31:48.800 These are all

00:31:49.200 generalized stereotypes.

00:31:50.480 They don't apply

00:31:50.880 to every human being.

00:31:52.100 But I think those

00:31:52.780 are some of the pieces

00:31:53.480 why this issue

00:31:54.240 is gendered in that way.

00:31:56.660 You know,

00:31:56.980 emotion,

00:31:57.880 being more vulnerable,

00:31:59.360 susceptible to negative emotion

00:32:00.720 and the desire

00:32:01.540 for community

00:32:02.360 and empathy.

00:32:03.340 I think those are the places

00:32:04.360 and those are

00:32:05.060 wonderful human instincts

00:32:06.560 that women bring

00:32:07.540 to the conversation.

00:32:08.740 Yes.

00:32:09.000 But if you weaponize them

00:32:10.120 against people

00:32:10.900 and also women

00:32:12.960 get punished more.

00:32:14.000 They get punished more

00:32:14.640 for speaking out.

00:32:16.600 That's the other thing.

00:32:17.720 Yeah.

00:32:17.860 It's more scary

00:32:18.600 because you are perceived

00:32:20.500 as more vulnerable.

00:32:21.220 Women get way more

00:32:22.340 hate online

00:32:22.980 for doing the same

00:32:23.680 things that I do,

00:32:24.380 for example.

00:32:24.700 You're right.

00:32:25.380 So the punishment

00:32:26.140 is also greater

00:32:26.980 and therefore

00:32:27.520 it's scary for women.

00:32:28.460 That's why,

00:32:28.940 you know,

00:32:29.420 gender critical feminists,

00:32:30.620 for example,

00:32:31.160 I have a lot of admiration

00:32:32.360 for them

00:32:32.800 because it's really,

00:32:34.560 really dangerous.

00:32:35.360 As do I.

00:32:35.740 as do I

00:32:37.220 because behind,

00:32:38.440 again,

00:32:38.840 and this comes back

00:32:39.660 to the self-censorship piece,

00:32:42.800 this is really preventing us

00:32:44.140 from having some really

00:32:45.440 fucking important conversations

00:32:47.120 because to truly be able to,

00:32:49.440 and I speak to a lot

00:32:50.160 of my trans friends,

00:32:51.140 have you spoken to Buck Angel?

00:32:52.700 Yes.

00:32:52.880 Yes, we have.

00:32:53.820 Oh, isn't Buck brilliant?

00:32:54.880 Yeah, Buck's great.

00:32:55.900 Oh my goodness.

00:32:57.240 I'm so grateful

00:32:58.340 that someone like him exists

00:32:59.580 but when I speak to people

00:33:00.640 like Buck

00:33:01.960 or just engage with his work

00:33:03.320 or some of my other trans friends,

00:33:05.940 you realize that

00:33:07.080 the current conversations

00:33:08.520 that are spreading

00:33:09.340 like wildfire

00:33:10.180 are really doing a disservice

00:33:11.680 to the people

00:33:12.300 that really need the help.

00:33:14.060 So when you have

00:33:15.120 certain trans activists

00:33:17.500 taking on the role

00:33:18.980 of speaking for everyone else

00:33:20.440 and taking people

00:33:22.420 10, 20, 30 years back

00:33:25.000 and we can't even ask questions

00:33:27.240 and have a discussion

00:33:28.140 because people are so afraid,

00:33:30.300 it's doing nothing.

00:33:31.960 It's doing absolutely nothing.

00:33:33.480 And something,

00:33:34.120 I wonder what you think about this

00:33:35.260 but I think

00:33:35.840 one of the things

00:33:37.820 with undoing self-censorship,

00:33:40.420 I think we all need

00:33:41.540 to be willing to risk something.

00:33:43.900 I think we are

00:33:45.800 in such extremes

00:33:46.920 of binary thinking

00:33:47.880 where we think,

00:33:48.440 but if I speak,

00:33:49.160 I'm going to lose my income,

00:33:50.400 my job, my clients,

00:33:51.540 my kids, etc.

00:33:52.320 We go to the extremes.

00:33:54.120 I always say to people,

00:33:55.140 including my clients,

00:33:56.760 yes, that is a possibility

00:33:58.460 but is that the only truth?

00:34:01.080 Right?

00:34:01.680 And I think people

00:34:02.420 have an idea that

00:34:03.520 to undo self-censorship,

00:34:06.280 you need to speak publicly.

00:34:07.700 No.

00:34:08.540 It's about your very

00:34:09.620 intimate relationships

00:34:10.820 that have been

00:34:11.500 heavily politicized.

00:34:13.360 It can be a very silent

00:34:14.600 and slow process

00:34:15.560 between one person.

00:34:17.160 It's you deciding

00:34:18.760 that the mob in your mind

00:34:20.000 should not exist

00:34:21.060 to begin with.

00:34:21.980 Because even when we say

00:34:23.140 language like,

00:34:23.840 oh, you can't say this anymore.

00:34:25.180 No.

00:34:25.540 Who the fuck gets

00:34:26.220 to decide that?

00:34:27.200 You can.

00:34:28.480 And maybe you need

00:34:29.280 to be willing

00:34:29.700 to risk something.

00:34:31.720 And I think comfort

00:34:32.880 is the bare minimum

00:34:34.020 that people can risk.

00:34:35.480 I think people

00:34:36.080 think that any kind

00:34:38.460 of discomfort

00:34:39.160 shouldn't be there

00:34:40.420 to begin with.

00:34:41.020 That means that

00:34:41.480 I should shut up.

00:34:42.180 No.

00:34:42.440 I think you need

00:34:43.500 to be willing

00:34:43.940 to risk something.

00:34:45.020 I think that's

00:34:45.460 the only way

00:34:46.040 through this.

00:34:48.840 Because accepting

00:34:49.760 that this is just

00:34:50.500 how it is

00:34:51.060 and having a few people,

00:34:52.840 maybe people like us,

00:34:54.200 speaking on behalf

00:34:55.200 of others.

00:34:55.740 There's only so much

00:34:56.720 that we can do

00:34:57.500 and I think it's easy

00:34:58.320 for people to

00:34:59.240 watch conversations

00:35:01.020 like this

00:35:01.700 and to maybe

00:35:03.160 stop there.

00:35:05.240 I do think

00:35:05.800 some people start

00:35:06.560 to see how can I

00:35:07.440 integrate this

00:35:08.120 into the real world.

00:35:09.000 Maybe I say,

00:35:10.080 hey, listen to this podcast

00:35:11.200 and start to

00:35:12.120 undo that process.

00:35:14.100 But I think

00:35:14.860 we need to be willing

00:35:15.660 to go a step further

00:35:17.220 and actually integrate

00:35:18.900 these things

00:35:20.060 into the real world.

00:35:21.820 I think

00:35:22.360 lack of authenticity

00:35:24.680 kills people.

00:35:25.780 I genuinely do.

00:35:26.640 I think it's

00:35:27.080 an emotional dry rot.

00:35:28.360 You get used to lying,

00:35:29.460 you get used to saying lies

00:35:30.700 and then you tell lies

00:35:32.120 to yourself

00:35:32.700 and then as a result

00:35:34.080 you become deeply unhappy,

00:35:35.760 deeply frustrated,

00:35:37.340 deeply angry

00:35:38.140 because you know

00:35:39.300 on some fundamental level

00:35:41.000 that you're wasting

00:35:41.620 your time

00:35:42.120 and time is all

00:35:42.780 that you have.

00:35:43.840 And if you're doing

00:35:44.520 that perpetually

00:35:45.320 you realise

00:35:46.060 that you're wasting

00:35:46.700 your life

00:35:47.240 and that's when

00:35:48.320 you become angry

00:35:49.140 and then you have

00:35:50.080 that anger

00:35:50.640 and then

00:35:51.620 if you don't express

00:35:53.040 that anger

00:35:53.440 because you're not

00:35:54.060 being honest

00:35:54.560 you then turn that

00:35:55.340 anger in on you

00:35:56.080 which is what?

00:35:56.820 It's depression

00:35:57.340 and that's why

00:35:58.560 people sink.

00:35:59.920 I think the best thing

00:36:00.780 that we can all do

00:36:01.560 is just go look

00:36:02.480 this is what I think

00:36:03.980 and what I feel.

00:36:05.100 Yeah.

00:36:05.200 And I just think

00:36:06.980 people are terrified

00:36:07.820 to do that

00:36:08.440 and they live

00:36:08.920 their life in fear

00:36:09.680 and it's tragic

00:36:10.440 because at the most

00:36:11.820 basic fundamental level

00:36:12.960 it's a waste of a life.

00:36:14.480 Now look,

00:36:14.880 not everybody needs

00:36:16.700 I think

00:36:17.440 to be going out there

00:36:19.000 and doing stuff

00:36:20.080 in the public eye

00:36:21.040 or whatever.

00:36:21.660 No, no.

00:36:22.020 Far from it.

00:36:22.840 But the world's a stage

00:36:24.540 and we're merely actors

00:36:26.120 and everybody's got

00:36:26.900 a role to play.

00:36:27.700 There are some people

00:36:28.380 for whom

00:36:28.740 the way to integrate

00:36:29.700 like us.

00:36:30.860 For me,

00:36:32.060 integrating that dishonesty

00:36:34.580 that I was living with

00:36:35.620 resulted in this.

00:36:37.140 For France it's the same.

00:36:38.300 For you, your life.

00:36:39.220 But for other people

00:36:39.960 it just means

00:36:40.620 there are people

00:36:41.880 who watch our show

00:36:42.780 we get people

00:36:43.880 sending us money

00:36:44.740 as you know

00:36:45.420 watching on the Raw show

00:36:46.640 going,

00:36:47.440 oh guys,

00:36:47.960 you are some of the best

00:36:48.820 commentators on YouTube

00:36:49.680 please don't read my name out.

00:36:51.940 Right?

00:36:52.760 And I respect that.

00:36:54.240 I understand

00:36:54.960 where that's coming from

00:36:55.880 and for some people

00:36:56.680 that may be the extent

00:36:58.540 of their honesty

00:36:59.720 is they send money

00:37:00.500 to a channel

00:37:01.120 that's doing something

00:37:01.940 that they think is valuable

00:37:02.980 and that they want

00:37:03.640 to see more of

00:37:04.300 but in their own lives

00:37:05.620 they're having to

00:37:06.640 you know

00:37:07.120 contain that

00:37:08.100 to certain contexts maybe.

00:37:10.120 Yes.

00:37:10.220 I don't think

00:37:10.760 it's a healthy environment

00:37:11.660 necessarily

00:37:12.260 but for some people

00:37:13.380 that's, you know

00:37:14.000 they've got kids to feed

00:37:15.060 and there's other

00:37:15.840 responsibilities

00:37:16.520 that come into play.

00:37:18.520 So I'm also aware

00:37:20.740 that asking everyone

00:37:22.920 we don't

00:37:23.940 like

00:37:24.280 when I think about

00:37:25.380 this

00:37:25.840 the way I think about

00:37:26.660 is

00:37:26.900 would the world

00:37:28.280 be a better place

00:37:29.100 if everybody in the world

00:37:30.080 was Constantine Kishin

00:37:31.140 I don't think

00:37:32.140 no.

00:37:32.660 Thank you.

00:37:33.700 She went straight away

00:37:34.700 no.

00:37:35.340 Trust me.

00:37:36.280 Trust me.

00:37:36.980 No.

00:37:37.720 Definitely not.

00:37:38.720 No.

00:37:39.140 Definitely not.

00:37:40.040 No it fucking wouldn't.

00:37:40.560 I thought you were going to say

00:37:41.860 something very different.

00:37:42.820 I think the world

00:37:43.560 would be amazing

00:37:44.240 if it was just

00:37:45.320 filled with you.

00:37:46.340 No I don't think

00:37:47.040 it would be.

00:37:47.980 I think

00:37:48.500 in every society

00:37:49.800 you need

00:37:50.620 a creative

00:37:52.220 destructive element.

00:37:54.340 Yeah.

00:37:54.460 an element of people

00:37:55.740 who are willing

00:37:56.320 to point at all

00:37:57.360 the hypocrisies

00:37:58.060 and the flaws

00:37:58.740 and the whatever

00:37:59.500 but if everybody

00:38:00.360 was doing that

00:38:01.160 it wouldn't be

00:38:02.060 a healthy society.

00:38:03.420 So I think

00:38:03.740 everybody's got a role

00:38:04.600 to play

00:38:05.040 and it's not so much

00:38:06.540 about looking at a screen

00:38:08.180 and going

00:38:08.520 oh I'm going to do that

00:38:09.680 I'm going to replicate

00:38:10.580 that in my life.

00:38:11.480 I think it's about

00:38:12.520 going what is

00:38:13.680 the authentic expression

00:38:14.820 of who I am

00:38:16.420 and what I feel

00:38:17.060 about the world

00:38:17.780 and my views

00:38:18.600 and how do I

00:38:19.340 and I frankly

00:38:20.360 have a lot more respect

00:38:21.800 for people who

00:38:22.960 I don't know

00:38:24.420 build a church

00:38:25.240 or feed hungry kids

00:38:26.980 or whatever

00:38:27.340 than people who do

00:38:28.240 a YouTube show.

00:38:29.380 You know people

00:38:29.760 who go out

00:38:30.280 into the real world

00:38:31.040 and do stuff

00:38:31.640 to me

00:38:32.040 or you know

00:38:33.040 people who create

00:38:34.080 a charity

00:38:34.560 that brings people

00:38:35.320 of different races

00:38:36.080 together

00:38:36.460 and helps them

00:38:37.040 see their common humanity.

00:38:38.640 To me that's infinitely

00:38:39.540 more valuable

00:38:40.200 than what we do.

00:38:41.360 So there's a thing

00:38:42.460 for everybody.

00:38:43.280 I agree.

00:38:43.840 I agree which is why

00:38:44.780 I always emphasize

00:38:46.520 that if you are

00:38:48.120 someone that is experiencing

00:38:49.260 just debilitating levels

00:38:51.160 of self-censorship

00:38:52.140 or even not

00:38:53.000 if you're starting

00:38:53.760 to think

00:38:54.300 huh I am finding

00:38:55.980 that if I'm with

00:38:56.820 this group of people

00:38:57.940 I end up agreeing

00:38:59.920 with things

00:39:00.340 that I don't actually

00:39:01.480 really think.

00:39:02.980 I think that is

00:39:04.000 the opportunity

00:39:04.540 to take the risk

00:39:05.720 that I'm speaking about

00:39:06.580 because when I say

00:39:07.220 the word risk

00:39:07.840 I don't want people

00:39:08.420 to go to the extremes

00:39:09.320 again thinking

00:39:09.860 they have to lose it

00:39:10.620 or no.

00:39:11.700 You have little moments

00:39:13.000 every single day

00:39:13.920 where you can just

00:39:14.720 behave in a slightly

00:39:16.040 different way

00:39:16.780 and just experience

00:39:18.140 that discomfort

00:39:18.900 and like I said

00:39:19.960 it's a very slow

00:39:21.340 silent

00:39:22.020 unsexy process

00:39:23.420 most of the time

00:39:24.320 you don't have to

00:39:25.180 shout about it online

00:39:26.540 I don't think most things

00:39:27.640 should be online

00:39:28.340 to be honest

00:39:29.180 I think it's a very

00:39:30.600 personal thing

00:39:31.500 and if you do

00:39:32.400 end up at a point

00:39:33.780 where you feel like

00:39:35.360 actually I do have

00:39:36.320 something useful

00:39:36.960 to contribute

00:39:37.580 to a conversation

00:39:38.480 that's currently happening

00:39:39.460 you've already done it

00:39:41.160 in your personal life

00:39:42.440 you know

00:39:43.360 and I think that's

00:39:44.740 far more sustainable

00:39:46.060 even

00:39:46.740 than trying to

00:39:48.620 find a strategy

00:39:50.760 to be able to

00:39:51.520 say something

00:39:52.220 controversial

00:39:52.860 and then put it online

00:39:53.960 I actually don't think

00:39:54.660 that's useful

00:39:55.240 because you haven't

00:39:56.120 taken yourself

00:39:56.760 through a crucial process

00:39:58.200 of saying actually

00:39:59.260 how do I think

00:40:00.120 how do I feel about this

00:40:01.280 and testing it out

00:40:02.420 with a friend

00:40:03.000 because I think it's worrying

00:40:04.280 and I get thousands

00:40:05.160 of messages like that

00:40:06.160 like what I'm about

00:40:07.600 to tell you each day

00:40:08.440 people that

00:40:10.080 have started to

00:40:12.480 avoid their family members

00:40:14.200 because they feel

00:40:15.460 a different way

00:40:16.640 to maybe

00:40:17.500 what the rest

00:40:18.120 of them feel

00:40:18.780 because they have

00:40:19.720 different opinions

00:40:20.420 about the vaccine

00:40:21.360 about mandates

00:40:22.300 about etc

00:40:23.100 and I think to myself

00:40:25.140 but it's your family

00:40:26.040 it's the people

00:40:27.200 that you should be able

00:40:28.160 to have those conversations

00:40:29.220 even when you don't agree

00:40:30.460 so it's not

00:40:31.620 something that

00:40:33.780 just people in the public eye

00:40:35.060 are experiencing

00:40:35.700 it's just the

00:40:36.780 average person

00:40:37.860 who's probably

00:40:38.420 not even on social media

00:40:39.560 that is starting

00:40:40.620 to experience

00:40:41.340 this tension

00:40:42.160 and this division

00:40:43.160 and to me

00:40:44.380 that's the area

00:40:45.240 that I like to focus

00:40:46.120 on the most

00:40:46.620 it's not even

00:40:47.180 the people

00:40:47.640 that are

00:40:48.140 necessarily

00:40:49.040 have thousands

00:40:50.920 of followers

00:40:51.440 or an audience

00:40:52.100 it's the everyday

00:40:53.440 person

00:40:54.020 that is starting

00:40:54.760 to feel stifled

00:40:55.900 that's what I care about

00:40:57.280 because we politicize

00:40:58.700 everything

00:40:59.080 that's the problem

00:40:59.780 everything is politicized

00:41:01.260 and a year ago

00:41:01.920 it wasn't like this

00:41:02.880 over a year ago

00:41:04.760 five years

00:41:05.440 it really wasn't like this

00:41:06.620 it really

00:41:07.180 my goodness

00:41:08.120 and you think

00:41:09.960 everything now

00:41:10.720 even whether you're

00:41:11.560 going to take a vaccine

00:41:12.580 there's reasons

00:41:14.560 to take the vaccine

00:41:15.420 there's reasons

00:41:16.060 not to take the vaccine

00:41:17.140 I believe in bodily autonomy

00:41:18.840 I believe that you should

00:41:20.060 read up about it

00:41:21.360 and decide

00:41:22.100 whether you think

00:41:22.860 it's appropriate

00:41:23.420 for yourself

00:41:23.960 anti-vaxxer

00:41:24.480 cancel it

00:41:25.180 he believes in bodily autonomy

00:41:26.700 yeah

00:41:27.180 and with that

00:41:29.100 I think it's

00:41:30.060 because it's exactly

00:41:31.980 where we are right now

00:41:33.000 what I also find

00:41:34.540 so sinister

00:41:35.240 is for example

00:41:36.300 the people that

00:41:37.340 have experienced

00:41:38.680 let's say

00:41:39.060 an adverse reaction

00:41:40.380 and they share

00:41:42.100 their story

00:41:42.740 not telling anyone

00:41:44.020 what they should do

00:41:44.820 they share their story

00:41:45.700 and then they

00:41:46.360 get called

00:41:47.000 an anti-vaxxer

00:41:47.860 they get attacked

00:41:48.480 is that really

00:41:51.440 where we are

00:41:51.980 so someone has

00:41:52.740 made a decision

00:41:53.480 maybe because

00:41:54.260 they think

00:41:54.860 it's for the best

00:41:56.220 they also want

00:41:56.840 to keep other people

00:41:57.600 safe etc

00:41:58.260 whatever their reasons

00:41:59.340 are

00:41:59.760 and they say

00:42:00.760 hey actually

00:42:01.340 I did make this decision

00:42:02.660 and then this happened

00:42:03.620 is this happening

00:42:04.320 to anyone else

00:42:05.020 can we have a conversation

00:42:05.800 you can't

00:42:07.440 even go there

00:42:08.920 and to me

00:42:09.800 that's a big

00:42:10.480 fucking problem

00:42:11.160 and just things like that

00:42:12.480 are part of why

00:42:13.780 I won't shut up

00:42:14.960 about any of this

00:42:15.800 think about

00:42:16.700 what you're talking

00:42:17.680 about there

00:42:18.260 and I've never really

00:42:19.200 thought about it

00:42:20.400 in this way

00:42:20.700 but as you were speaking

00:42:21.540 I realised this

00:42:22.780 think about

00:42:23.960 what's happened

00:42:24.740 to the idea

00:42:25.480 of the truth

00:42:26.220 in that situation

00:42:27.720 the truth

00:42:29.100 has been made

00:42:29.700 a slave

00:42:30.340 to convenience

00:42:31.140 god

00:42:31.940 it's been made

00:42:32.760 a slave

00:42:33.340 to achieving

00:42:34.200 some kind

00:42:34.740 of political outcome

00:42:35.740 and so

00:42:36.620 we don't want

00:42:38.120 to hear your story

00:42:39.000 about how you

00:42:39.820 had a particular

00:42:40.520 reaction to a particular

00:42:41.680 medical procedure

00:42:42.980 because we have

00:42:44.740 an agenda

00:42:45.300 and your story

00:42:48.040 is not only

00:42:49.180 not important

00:42:49.820 we're going to

00:42:50.420 suppress it

00:42:51.040 we're going to

00:42:51.440 shut it down

00:42:52.180 because we

00:42:53.880 need to achieve

00:42:54.820 our objective

00:42:55.500 and in order

00:42:56.580 to achieve

00:42:57.080 our objective

00:42:57.660 we're going to

00:42:58.200 tell you to shut up

00:42:58.980 and keep your

00:42:59.900 experience to yourself

00:43:01.200 right

00:43:01.720 that's what's

00:43:02.720 happening there

00:43:03.300 yeah

00:43:03.660 and it's

00:43:04.500 so interesting

00:43:06.100 you say that

00:43:06.680 because I

00:43:08.000 always say

00:43:08.640 similar things

00:43:09.220 about my work

00:43:10.020 my work

00:43:10.860 resonates with

00:43:11.660 so many people

00:43:12.580 at this point

00:43:13.080 in time

00:43:13.400 my open letter

00:43:14.420 has been read

00:43:15.060 by nearly

00:43:15.500 five million

00:43:16.100 people

00:43:16.580 amazing

00:43:17.100 I mean it's

00:43:17.620 not a short

00:43:18.040 it's four thousand

00:43:18.940 fucking words

00:43:19.680 I couldn't finish it

00:43:21.300 it's not short

00:43:28.520 it's not short

00:43:29.360 I was joking

00:43:30.280 thank you

00:43:31.880 and I've

00:43:34.020 I've received

00:43:34.780 you might have

00:43:35.320 heard me say

00:43:35.800 this on

00:43:36.200 on different

00:43:36.700 podcasts

00:43:37.140 maybe not

00:43:37.660 but I've

00:43:38.360 received

00:43:38.860 I haven't

00:43:40.340 received any

00:43:40.860 pushback

00:43:41.400 I haven't

00:43:42.660 received any

00:43:43.220 pushback

00:43:43.700 and the amount

00:43:44.880 of people

00:43:45.640 specifically

00:43:46.820 black people

00:43:47.900 brown people

00:43:49.020 that have

00:43:50.820 I am laughing

00:43:52.060 at brown people

00:43:52.700 because I always

00:43:53.460 hear the brown

00:43:54.260 bird

00:43:54.660 they're some

00:43:57.880 of my favourite

00:43:58.560 jokes

00:43:58.980 honestly

00:43:59.460 she's talking

00:44:01.500 about our

00:44:02.000 raw show

00:44:02.520 which is

00:44:03.020 completely

00:44:03.600 outrageous

00:44:04.180 just me and

00:44:04.780 Francis talking

00:44:05.440 shit

00:44:05.760 we do it

00:44:06.460 three times

00:44:06.960 a week

00:44:07.260 and inexplicably

00:44:08.460 Africa watches

00:44:09.240 it

00:44:09.380 oh I love it

00:44:10.260 please watch

00:44:11.120 it

00:44:11.360 please watch

00:44:11.920 it

00:44:12.140 the amount

00:44:13.480 of people

00:44:13.880 that have

00:44:14.320 told me

00:44:14.900 just thank

00:44:16.080 you for

00:44:16.460 speaking

00:44:16.800 about this

00:44:17.480 and

00:44:18.520 that message

00:44:20.760 that it's

00:44:21.420 convenient

00:44:21.800 it's inconvenient

00:44:22.660 for so many

00:44:23.440 people

00:44:23.800 especially

00:44:24.340 so-called

00:44:24.940 activists

00:44:25.520 and I'm

00:44:26.640 not against

00:44:27.080 activists

00:44:27.520 of course

00:44:27.920 it would

00:44:28.220 be ridiculous

00:44:28.840 for me

00:44:29.260 to be

00:44:29.480 against

00:44:29.780 activism

00:44:30.320 I think

00:44:30.820 activism

00:44:31.320 is so

00:44:32.180 important

00:44:32.740 and it's

00:44:33.280 so needed

00:44:33.800 there's so

00:44:34.740 many wonderful

00:44:35.520 activists

00:44:35.940 that I know

00:44:36.460 personally

00:44:36.940 that are

00:44:37.400 on the

00:44:37.880 ground

00:44:38.240 doing the

00:44:39.500 very

00:44:40.060 unsexy

00:44:40.840 work of

00:44:41.360 making a

00:44:41.820 difference

00:44:42.120 they don't

00:44:42.480 have

00:44:42.800 big

00:44:43.340 platforms

00:44:43.820 they don't

00:44:44.160 want to

00:44:44.400 be famous

00:44:44.840 but a lot

00:44:45.400 of people

00:44:45.820 want the

00:44:46.740 fame

00:44:47.100 but my

00:44:48.780 message is

00:44:49.340 inconvenient

00:44:49.820 for them

00:44:50.440 because a

00:44:51.100 black woman

00:44:51.820 coming

00:44:53.100 forward

00:44:53.940 and saying

00:44:55.080 no actually

00:44:55.740 there's a

00:44:56.160 very one-sided

00:44:57.160 narrative

00:44:57.720 about race

00:44:58.640 and I'm

00:44:59.260 not buying

00:44:59.940 it

00:45:00.120 I'm not

00:45:00.440 into it

00:45:00.920 and also

00:45:02.060 this black

00:45:02.700 woman is

00:45:03.260 not affiliated

00:45:04.540 with the

00:45:05.340 alt-right

00:45:06.520 you know

00:45:07.040 because that's

00:45:07.520 the angle

00:45:07.900 that you

00:45:08.220 always hear

00:45:08.760 when people

00:45:09.220 dismiss people

00:45:09.920 like Candace

00:45:10.500 Owens

00:45:11.260 they will

00:45:12.860 just dismiss

00:45:13.440 her because

00:45:13.860 she's on

00:45:14.300 the right

00:45:14.680 but I'm

00:45:15.340 not on

00:45:15.880 any kind

00:45:16.440 of side

00:45:16.900 if I

00:45:18.000 was to

00:45:18.360 be pushed

00:45:18.980 to say

00:45:19.740 where do

00:45:20.200 you lean

00:45:20.560 you could

00:45:20.920 say that

00:45:21.260 I'm more

00:45:21.580 left-leaning

00:45:22.160 but there

00:45:22.980 are many

00:45:23.420 things that

00:45:23.960 I agree

00:45:24.520 with

00:45:24.900 with people

00:45:25.480 that are

00:45:25.760 more conservative

00:45:26.520 and people

00:45:27.260 that are not

00:45:27.880 even politically

00:45:28.680 affiliated

00:45:29.320 anything

00:45:30.000 but again

00:45:32.160 my message

00:45:32.780 is very

00:45:33.220 inconvenient

00:45:33.780 for people

00:45:34.460 that want

00:45:34.980 to just

00:45:35.320 sell a

00:45:35.760 very singular

00:45:36.580 idea of

00:45:37.840 the so-called

00:45:38.800 black experience

00:45:39.960 which

00:45:40.560 anyway

00:45:41.340 so

00:45:42.800 we'll talk

00:45:44.540 about that

00:45:44.860 another time

00:45:45.440 so yeah

00:45:45.900 can we talk

00:45:46.560 about it now

00:45:47.120 yeah sure

00:45:48.100 what is your

00:45:49.140 message on

00:45:50.080 the race

00:45:50.540 issue

00:45:50.900 um

00:45:52.220 that's a

00:45:54.580 broad question

00:45:55.340 well you were

00:45:56.080 saying that it's

00:45:56.800 inconvenient for

00:45:57.700 some people to

00:45:58.500 hear you say

00:45:59.180 what you say

00:45:59.800 so what is

00:46:01.040 what is it

00:46:01.900 that you think

00:46:02.860 that is inconvenient

00:46:03.900 to certain types

00:46:05.220 of activists

00:46:05.860 to me

00:46:10.760 first of all

00:46:11.600 I think

00:46:12.140 the way

00:46:13.240 that race

00:46:13.720 has been

00:46:14.060 spoken about

00:46:14.680 right now

00:46:15.120 is through

00:46:15.440 a very

00:46:16.160 Americanized

00:46:16.940 lens

00:46:17.340 I don't know

00:46:18.080 if you

00:46:18.440 you both

00:46:19.360 have thought

00:46:19.700 this as well

00:46:20.320 to me

00:46:21.760 it doesn't

00:46:22.300 really

00:46:22.460 especially

00:46:22.980 as someone

00:46:24.340 that was

00:46:24.720 born in

00:46:25.220 Zimbabwe

00:46:25.640 came here

00:46:26.400 to the UK

00:46:26.940 when I was

00:46:27.440 nine years

00:46:27.860 old

00:46:28.220 um

00:46:29.120 and culturally

00:46:30.340 my life

00:46:31.260 experience

00:46:31.660 is just

00:46:32.060 very different

00:46:32.840 from let's

00:46:33.640 say

00:46:33.920 someone who

00:46:34.880 has been

00:46:35.300 born and

00:46:35.740 raised in

00:46:36.180 the US

00:46:36.500 or someone

00:46:37.020 born and

00:46:37.420 raised in

00:46:37.680 the UK

00:46:38.040 so I

00:46:38.980 see race

00:46:39.640 in a very

00:46:40.040 different way

00:46:40.560 I didn't

00:46:40.960 grow up

00:46:41.520 thinking

00:46:42.460 or being

00:46:43.420 told

00:46:43.860 that because

00:46:45.220 of the

00:46:45.620 color of

00:46:45.980 my skin

00:46:46.440 by default

00:46:47.260 I'm somewhat

00:46:47.920 oppressed

00:46:48.540 and I need

00:46:48.980 to look at

00:46:49.520 anyone who

00:46:50.100 is white

00:46:50.540 as my

00:46:51.020 oppressor

00:46:51.700 or my

00:46:52.420 victimizer

00:46:53.140 and I am

00:46:53.660 the victim

00:46:54.160 it's just

00:46:55.120 not the way

00:46:55.800 that I was

00:46:56.460 raised

00:46:56.840 culturally

00:46:57.280 it just

00:46:57.940 isn't

00:46:58.440 so I

00:47:00.080 feel as

00:47:00.680 though in

00:47:01.160 the present

00:47:01.540 day I'm

00:47:02.020 being forced

00:47:02.840 to step

00:47:03.680 into

00:47:04.240 a racial

00:47:05.460 conversation

00:47:06.220 that doesn't

00:47:08.060 align with

00:47:08.860 my actual

00:47:10.060 so-called

00:47:11.060 lived experience

00:47:12.260 right and I

00:47:14.400 have a lot of

00:47:14.940 questions about

00:47:15.720 it and I

00:47:17.260 think that's the

00:47:17.780 most inconvenient

00:47:18.460 part because

00:47:19.180 you're not allowed

00:47:19.840 to say hey but I

00:47:21.060 was born and raised

00:47:21.720 in Zimbabwe and my

00:47:22.600 experience of my

00:47:23.760 race is very

00:47:25.200 different and I

00:47:27.060 actually don't see

00:47:28.000 myself as

00:47:28.740 oppressed

00:47:29.140 some people

00:47:31.180 and I've had

00:47:32.220 this a few

00:47:32.740 times

00:47:33.180 will get

00:47:34.180 angry that I

00:47:35.240 don't see

00:47:35.860 myself as

00:47:37.380 oppressed

00:47:37.620 they will see

00:47:38.280 it as if

00:47:38.700 I'm denying

00:47:39.580 that's the

00:47:40.580 angle that

00:47:41.000 people go

00:47:41.480 to oh so

00:47:42.420 you didn't

00:47:42.900 know I

00:47:43.540 can accept

00:47:44.240 the reality

00:47:44.860 of what's

00:47:45.300 happened in

00:47:45.660 history and

00:47:47.040 also acknowledge

00:47:48.380 that I'm not

00:47:49.100 oppressed

00:47:49.900 because I

00:47:50.360 think it's a

00:47:51.060 slap in the

00:47:52.200 fucking face

00:47:52.820 to so many

00:47:53.360 people in

00:47:53.860 my country

00:47:54.440 who are

00:47:54.940 actually

00:47:55.620 truly oppressed

00:47:57.140 by the government

00:47:57.880 and the system

00:47:58.520 that we live

00:47:59.020 under and to

00:48:01.160 be able to sit

00:48:01.760 in the western

00:48:02.300 world I'm

00:48:03.700 probably more

00:48:04.620 privileged than

00:48:05.520 most people to

00:48:07.520 say that I'm

00:48:08.260 oppressed it just

00:48:09.260 doesn't I I'm

00:48:10.560 not I'm not

00:48:11.460 doing that and I

00:48:13.580 think that's what

00:48:14.200 causes a lot of

00:48:14.940 friction with

00:48:15.540 activists that have

00:48:16.340 a very specific

00:48:17.480 Americanized message

00:48:18.860 about race

00:48:19.640 Africa do you

00:48:21.240 think and I

00:48:22.320 think we all

00:48:23.360 have this is

00:48:25.000 that there is

00:48:26.060 something I think

00:48:27.200 of we all

00:48:28.180 have western

00:48:28.900 privilege in

00:48:29.520 this country

00:48:30.000 particularly

00:48:30.600 people who've

00:48:31.760 been born and

00:48:32.660 brought up in

00:48:33.160 this country

00:48:33.640 they look around

00:48:34.400 they only see

00:48:35.040 the flaws they

00:48:35.660 only see the

00:48:36.140 things wrong

00:48:36.620 with it they

00:48:37.520 magnify and

00:48:39.260 they focus in

00:48:40.420 on the flaws

00:48:41.560 with this

00:48:41.920 country the

00:48:42.960 problems with

00:48:43.620 it and they

00:48:44.160 don't see

00:48:44.620 actually how

00:48:45.180 lucky they

00:48:45.700 are right

00:48:46.360 you know you

00:48:47.160 grew up in

00:48:48.140 Zimbabwe I

00:48:49.600 my mother's

00:48:50.320 Venezuelan I

00:48:51.080 went back I

00:48:51.840 saw what happens

00:48:52.720 when a society

00:48:53.400 unravels I saw

00:48:54.880 what happens when

00:48:55.660 you quote unquote

00:48:56.480 abolish capitalism

00:48:58.160 and then you

00:48:59.980 see people in

00:49:01.380 this country

00:49:02.060 wanting to

00:49:02.820 implement those

00:49:03.540 things implement

00:49:04.640 those ideas put

00:49:06.260 these narratives

00:49:07.080 and you know

00:49:08.200 having seen the

00:49:09.440 other side of

00:49:10.340 life that

00:49:11.340 actually how

00:49:12.040 fortunate we are

00:49:12.960 to be in this

00:49:13.660 place

00:49:13.860 right yeah and

00:49:15.260 and I think

00:49:15.980 that's what it

00:49:16.500 is I have

00:49:17.440 something to

00:49:18.660 compare it to

00:49:19.400 and I have

00:49:21.260 immense gratitude

00:49:22.760 gratitude for

00:49:23.440 the opportunity

00:49:24.760 that I have

00:49:25.360 and I always

00:49:25.840 think of an

00:49:27.160 area of so-called

00:49:28.320 privilege that

00:49:28.960 people don't

00:49:29.340 speak about which

00:49:30.060 is passport

00:49:30.680 privilege the

00:49:32.260 Zimbabwean

00:49:32.840 passport I

00:49:33.760 I shouldn't

00:49:34.760 laugh but I

00:49:35.860 shouldn't laugh

00:49:36.560 I do have one

00:49:37.480 but I mean it's

00:49:38.940 it's not the

00:49:39.980 same as having

00:49:40.580 a British

00:49:41.080 passport it's

00:49:42.640 it's not the

00:49:43.840 same and the

00:49:45.440 just something

00:49:47.180 that's so

00:49:47.660 seemingly small

00:49:49.740 that it

00:49:51.260 changes my

00:49:51.880 life in in

00:49:52.720 a way that

00:49:53.400 most people

00:49:54.080 can never

00:49:54.700 imagine in

00:49:55.480 my country

00:49:56.140 so to sit

00:49:57.360 here and to

00:49:58.200 say I'm

00:49:58.740 oppressed and

00:50:00.000 the the most

00:50:00.600 interesting thing

00:50:01.200 is that some

00:50:01.740 people through

00:50:03.220 genuine curiosity

00:50:04.140 I will say okay

00:50:04.880 so can you tell

00:50:05.520 me how how

00:50:07.040 exactly are you

00:50:07.980 oppressed you

00:50:08.760 know when people

00:50:09.180 are shouting

00:50:09.600 online and

00:50:10.160 they're saying

00:50:10.480 oh we're

00:50:10.900 oppressed no

00:50:12.500 one can ever

00:50:13.020 tell me what

00:50:14.680 actually makes

00:50:15.300 you oppressed

00:50:15.940 is it because

00:50:16.600 you see your

00:50:17.660 skin color

00:50:18.900 as a burden

00:50:20.420 because that's

00:50:22.040 what so many

00:50:23.220 activists fought

00:50:24.260 for us to not

00:50:25.200 believe and to

00:50:26.140 think and you're

00:50:26.800 willingly taking

00:50:27.660 that on a lot

00:50:28.740 of people again

00:50:29.240 the script that I

00:50:30.060 was speaking about

00:50:30.620 earlier a lot of

00:50:32.180 people will be

00:50:32.740 chanting certain

00:50:33.760 things and when

00:50:34.960 you simply ask a

00:50:36.180 question okay so

00:50:36.980 tell me exactly

00:50:38.280 how the whole

00:50:39.660 thing fucking

00:50:40.300 crumbles because

00:50:41.380 they don't even

00:50:43.140 know why they're

00:50:43.960 committing to this

00:50:44.860 idea yeah so I

00:50:47.400 do find that very

00:50:48.180 interesting I

00:50:48.820 do and quite

00:50:49.540 disturbing yeah

00:50:51.160 it is I think

00:50:52.340 the conversation

00:50:53.400 about oppression

00:50:54.120 is probably even

00:50:55.680 more nuanced than

00:50:56.780 that because I

00:50:57.520 think if you look

00:50:58.700 at certainly the

00:50:59.420 history of

00:51:00.140 immigration into

00:51:01.020 this country the

00:51:02.140 people who came

00:51:02.860 here from the

00:51:03.340 Caribbean in the

00:51:04.100 50s and 60s were

00:51:04.960 treated very badly

00:51:05.780 yes and for for

00:51:07.280 some of them the

00:51:08.620 residue of that and

00:51:09.820 the legacy of that

00:51:10.840 runs to this day

00:51:11.980 through the family

00:51:12.800 history and through

00:51:14.760 some of you know

00:51:15.540 we know friends

00:51:16.720 comedians who at

00:51:18.720 the time of BLM

00:51:19.660 last year were

00:51:20.480 saying well look I'm

00:51:21.820 not into all of

00:51:22.600 this victimhood stuff

00:51:23.440 but I as a young

00:51:24.680 black man was first

00:51:25.860 like stopped by the

00:51:27.100 police when I was

00:51:27.680 12 and then it

00:51:28.800 happened three times

00:51:29.720 every year for the

00:51:30.560 rest of my life so

00:51:31.920 there was that

00:51:33.240 experience whether

00:51:34.400 it's you know there

00:51:35.380 are some underlying

00:51:36.180 reasons that we don't

00:51:37.660 need to get into now

00:51:38.560 that may explain some

00:51:39.980 of that yes but the

00:51:40.980 subjective experience

00:51:41.880 of that person is

00:51:42.700 nonetheless one of

00:51:43.720 you know uncomfortable

00:51:45.500 experiences which are

00:51:47.000 to some extent caused

00:51:48.780 by their skin color

00:51:49.660 yes right but at the

00:51:51.500 same time what what

00:51:52.820 triggered me into not

00:51:54.820 buying into it is

00:51:55.940 when when it became

00:51:57.940 these broad

00:51:59.840 generalizations like you

00:52:01.440 were talking about

00:52:02.100 all white people this

00:52:03.580 well actually no people

00:52:04.880 would say that I'm

00:52:05.660 white my family never

00:52:07.000 benefited from slavery

00:52:08.120 didn't live in this

00:52:09.080 country most of my

00:52:10.020 family 50 60 70 80 100

00:52:12.740 150 years ago long

00:52:14.200 after the transatlantic

00:52:15.360 slave trade ended were

00:52:16.820 slaves right white

00:52:18.200 slaves Jewish slaves

00:52:19.700 taken to Germany as

00:52:20.720 slave laborers or slaves

00:52:22.140 in the Soviet gulags

00:52:23.140 like it's not as simple

00:52:25.220 as white bad black good

00:52:27.280 it's just not right and

00:52:29.020 and we can have a

00:52:29.980 conversation about why

00:52:31.500 certain groups of

00:52:32.880 particularly Caribbean

00:52:33.960 people in this country

00:52:35.700 and in North America do

00:52:37.500 have a different experience

00:52:38.740 of life and we should

00:52:39.600 have that conversation

00:52:40.480 and there are some

00:52:41.060 problems there that need

00:52:41.880 addressing but we don't

00:52:43.300 need to demonize people

00:52:44.580 black or white or brown

00:52:46.380 or whatever other skin

00:52:47.140 color as a race and this

00:52:49.360 thing about whiteness that

00:52:52.000 is literally what you said

00:52:53.200 which is it's just taking

00:52:54.600 racism and flipping it in

00:52:56.100 reverse that's all it is

00:52:57.260 yeah that's all it is

00:52:58.500 yeah but I do with all of

00:53:01.260 that being said I do people

00:53:03.260 always ask me so are you

00:53:04.520 hopeful do you think

00:53:05.500 everything has just gone to

00:53:06.660 shit and we're fucked I am

00:53:09.820 hopeful because the fact

00:53:11.680 that a year ago I even

00:53:16.140 though I thought of myself

00:53:17.380 as a very confident

00:53:18.520 outspoken person I'm in

00:53:20.000 integrity I've led myself

00:53:21.680 here through my sobriety

00:53:22.680 journey I don't think I

00:53:24.060 would have sat here speaking

00:53:24.980 to both of you I think I

00:53:26.980 would have if we're just

00:53:28.700 isolating that moment in

00:53:30.680 time I would have sort of

00:53:33.600 just kept this to myself

00:53:35.020 that this is what I'm

00:53:36.780 engaging in in terms of

00:53:38.100 just conversation the fact

00:53:40.520 that we can even have this

00:53:42.100 conversation and it's not

00:53:43.020 the only one happening I'm

00:53:43.920 sure you've seen that more

00:53:44.940 people are starting to feel

00:53:46.200 able to say hey something

00:53:48.140 really fucking weird is

00:53:49.600 happening we need to talk

00:53:50.620 about it or you know to

00:53:52.460 start to create comedy

00:53:54.840 sketches that address some

00:53:56.340 of the things that are

00:53:57.020 happening and you start to

00:53:58.000 see that things are

00:53:58.900 shifting you know maybe not

00:54:00.720 as fast as some people

00:54:02.280 would like it but I think

00:54:03.340 it's something is

00:54:04.920 happening that is changing

00:54:06.120 shifting the tide a little

00:54:07.400 bit so that allows me to

00:54:09.820 remain a little bit

00:54:10.560 hopeful through all of it

00:54:12.020 yeah do you do you both

00:54:13.920 feel I there are times

00:54:23.540 where I feel hopeful yeah

00:54:25.140 and then I go on Twitter

00:54:26.500 you know what I mean and

00:54:27.880 I'm not on Twitter so maybe

00:54:30.360 so maybe there is because

00:54:33.200 we're starting to have

00:54:34.000 these conversations the

00:54:35.440 the tone is less heated

00:54:36.740 we do seem to have cooled

00:54:39.060 down when it comes to the

00:54:40.540 whole discussion on race so

00:54:41.780 perhaps we are the thing

00:54:43.680 that I always find very

00:54:44.880 worrying and very sad is

00:54:47.400 how you see black people

00:54:49.340 who come out and say look

00:54:50.620 I disagree with this I

00:54:52.480 disagree with that I'm not

00:54:53.980 on board with a lot of what

00:54:55.020 BLM do I'm not a lot on

00:54:56.500 board with a lot of what

00:54:57.220 BLM say these are my

00:54:58.800 reasons and then I see

00:55:00.740 other black people then

00:55:03.420 use racial epithets against

00:55:05.320 them and then say the

00:55:08.360 most horrendous things yeah

00:55:10.500 and that's just normal and

00:55:12.400 I'm thinking to myself and

00:55:13.660 then I see white people

00:55:14.960 doing it like a friend

00:55:17.880 Zuby who comes out and you

00:55:19.520 know he was very critical of

00:55:21.040 the BLM movement and then I

00:55:22.780 saw white people saying

00:55:24.300 racist things to him and

00:55:25.860 everyone was like oh yeah

00:55:26.640 that's fine right so so it's

00:55:29.380 almost as if if someone is

00:55:30.580 labeled a coon or an uncle

00:55:32.300 tom that means they can be

00:55:36.900 treated as if they are an

00:55:38.280 actual so-called white

00:55:39.620 supremacist so it doesn't it

00:55:41.260 doesn't matter victimhood

00:55:42.800 again yeah so the victimhood

00:55:44.900 revoked so the dehumanization

00:55:46.800 is almost just a default of

00:55:50.260 that because they've been

00:55:51.360 yeah yeah but I am slightly

00:55:53.920 optimistic at least on on the

00:55:55.760 wokeness front there's some

00:55:57.460 other things going on right

00:55:58.520 now that we don't probably

00:55:59.640 don't have time to get into

00:56:00.560 that make me a lot more

00:56:01.680 pessimistic but on the stuff

00:56:03.160 we're talking about here I

00:56:04.840 do think the pendulum has

00:56:08.400 slowed I don't think it's

00:56:10.020 swinging back at all but I

00:56:12.200 think it's slowing it's

00:56:13.320 slowing down it's slowing down

00:56:14.660 on the race issue it's slowing

00:56:16.700 down I think very noticeably

00:56:18.860 actually on you've got to be

00:56:22.220 very careful with words in this

00:56:23.920 area but to me there is a lot

00:56:26.320 of portions of the feminist

00:56:27.700 movement which I see is very

00:56:29.220 legitimate and very well

00:56:31.200 intentioned and rightly

00:56:33.100 existing right and actually

00:56:35.200 talking about important things

00:56:36.400 and not just gender critical

00:56:37.740 there's stuff about domestic

00:56:38.880 violence and all of that which

00:56:40.720 is really important and it's

00:56:42.400 unaddressed yeah but there was

00:56:44.100 also a portion a few years ago of

00:56:46.600 the feminist movement which was

00:56:48.040 just about man-hating it just was

00:56:50.320 that seems to have died down

00:56:52.160 that's encouraging to me and the

00:56:56.220 general wokeness and social

00:56:57.600 justice thing again I do feel

00:56:59.480 that it's slowing down and more

00:57:01.300 sensible people are being you know

00:57:03.520 a bit more measured about

00:57:04.560 speaking out against it but a lot

00:57:06.040 of people are now criticizing it

00:57:07.920 it seems to me like when Barack

00:57:09.180 Obama is saying maybe you

00:57:10.520 shouldn't be quite as woke like we

00:57:12.060 kind of you know you know what I

00:57:13.360 mean like he people people might

00:57:16.640 listen to that I would hope you

00:57:18.380 know so I think on that issue

00:57:20.700 actually I'm with you and not with

00:57:22.500 Francis for a change I've been

00:57:25.180 less infected by his pessimism in

00:57:26.860 that area I do think we're making

00:57:28.420 progress I do yeah I do I think

00:57:30.580 the fact that you're here is

00:57:31.400 progress yeah me too I think that is

00:57:33.900 progress it's fascinating it's a

00:57:37.320 very it's a very interesting moment

00:57:39.120 do you you know we haven't talked

00:57:41.500 about Zimbabwe much do you think

00:57:44.200 that you have an outsider's

00:57:46.940 perspective and that's what colors

00:57:48.560 your ability to look at this in a

00:57:50.300 different way

00:57:50.860 absolutely I do I really do and I'm

00:57:55.780 so grateful for that actually

00:57:57.760 because I think it introduces again

00:58:02.520 another angle that is important in

00:58:04.400 this conversation because even though

00:58:06.640 you hear you know activists social

00:58:09.880 justice people chanting black people

00:58:12.600 not a monolith etc etc they still treat

00:58:15.940 treat you like you are one they still

00:58:18.080 treat you like you are one because if

00:58:19.700 you are let's say conservative and from

00:58:21.580 the right they'll say but you're black

00:58:24.260 okay right so so many of those

00:58:28.160 contradictions do show up and I think

00:58:29.860 just me being able to offer that

00:58:32.100 perspective as an immigrant in the UK

00:58:34.940 that doesn't view things in this very

00:58:39.020 singular way I think that's an important

00:58:41.120 perspective and I think my me being

00:58:43.520 Zimbabwean is a big part of that yeah

00:58:45.220 yeah and do you mind if I'm making some

00:58:48.060 would I be right in assuming that you

00:58:49.400 come from like a middle-class family in

00:58:51.720 Zimbabwe is that fair to say or not

00:58:53.780 I'm just it's just a curiosity

00:58:55.840 working-class family really working-class

00:58:58.080 family in Zimbabwe but the thing is with

00:59:00.940 most African in most African countries

00:59:03.500 education is valued it's really really

00:59:06.520 valid yeah yeah yeah um you're like the

00:59:09.840 Jews we are like the Jews and that'll be

00:59:14.820 the title of the episode you know there's

00:59:20.900 a lot of black Jews yeah so education is

00:59:26.200 really valued so you will have families

00:59:28.120 that are very much working class that

00:59:30.200 will pour everything they have to make

00:59:33.800 sure that their children actually get an

00:59:36.140 education which is why I think also

00:59:38.300 with you and I didn't go to private

00:59:39.740 school or anything like that I didn't

00:59:41.260 even go to university um but my family

00:59:43.940 did make sure that we did especially

00:59:46.720 coming to the UK in 2001 where Zimbabwe

00:59:49.980 was on such a decline and my mum was a

00:59:53.200 geologist in Zimbabwe but when she came

00:59:55.360 here to the UK none of that was useful

00:59:57.860 none of she couldn't do anything with

00:59:59.880 that you can't use any of your degrees

01:00:03.440 in the same way she had to start from

01:00:05.860 zero um she had to do nursing she was

01:00:09.040 staying in student halls she had four

01:00:11.540 kids I have two older sisters one younger

01:00:13.580 brother so I don't come from a privileged

01:00:17.080 background in the sense that people might

01:00:19.240 assume um but my family and my mum in

01:00:22.980 particular has worked so fucking hard um to

01:00:26.660 get herself and pour everything into us to

01:00:29.460 get ourselves to where we are right now

01:00:31.700 which is why again a lot of the um language

01:00:35.820 and a lot of the messaging that is being

01:00:37.620 put out at the moment I I completely

01:00:40.120 reject it because it shrinks the real and

01:00:43.380 very individual experiences of people

01:00:45.900 globally um so yeah again I do think my

01:00:49.860 upbringing in Zimbabwe from a working

01:00:52.760 class family um that wasn't in poverty or

01:00:55.980 anything like that but just regular people

01:00:58.040 working in a Zimbabwe that was thriving

01:01:00.460 and just took a nosedive and having to

01:01:03.640 start again and having the privilege of

01:01:06.780 coming to the UK at a time where it was

01:01:08.920 much easier to come into the UK now if

01:01:11.600 you're coming from Zimbabwe into the UK

01:01:13.220 it's very very difficult to even get into

01:01:16.720 the country um so yeah there are so many

01:01:19.780 threads to to not only my story but many

01:01:22.700 people's story and I think again repeating

01:01:25.300 myself here but the current narrative about

01:01:27.900 race and identity and experiences it just

01:01:30.260 shrinks all of that and makes everyone into

01:01:33.020 just blobs you know um so yeah it's also

01:01:38.060 about aspiration isn't it because you can't

01:01:41.500 see yourself as a victim and at the same

01:01:43.720 time aspire right to be something yeah to you

01:01:47.780 know to achieve something or to run a

01:01:49.620 business the two things are mutually

01:01:51.220 incompatible because if you think that the

01:01:53.000 world's against you you're never going to

01:01:54.140 achieve anything then you're never going

01:01:55.780 to aspire and that's part of my problem

01:01:58.400 with this is that it says to people oh

01:02:01.320 you're a victim you know the system is

01:02:04.240 against you yeah you're never gonna you're

01:02:06.080 never gonna be able to achieve because

01:02:07.820 you're of this you know you're in this

01:02:09.840 group and you're oppressed and to me that

01:02:12.000 just seems so toxic and harmful right it

01:02:14.600 just keeps people in the exact same cycle so

01:02:17.780 this is where I what I call collective

01:02:20.320 sabotage comes in because you're just getting

01:02:23.760 in the way of your supposed goal but then

01:02:26.860 I think to myself actually for most of

01:02:28.420 these people they don't have a fucking

01:02:29.740 goal goal no one talks about what is the

01:02:32.580 actual goal here no one ever offers

01:02:34.540 solutions um and for me that that was

01:02:38.920 especially last year another moment of

01:02:40.660 awakening just thinking hold on why

01:02:43.380 doesn't for example BLM the organization

01:02:45.460 why don't they seem to ever offer

01:02:47.220 solutions what is that about again it's

01:02:50.040 just a simple question it's not me stating

01:02:52.220 anything specific just a question and I

01:02:55.720 think just introducing those questions

01:02:57.400 to yourself can kind of just crack the

01:03:00.160 veneer a little bit it's a very good

01:03:02.220 point and you know your point about

01:03:03.980 collective self-sabotage I really want

01:03:06.300 to dig into that because one of one of

01:03:08.980 the things I've done a lot in my life is

01:03:10.940 personal development stuff and I've tried

01:03:13.320 as much we talked with Richard Grannon a

01:03:15.340 couple of weeks ago about shadow

01:03:17.040 integration yes about dealing with the

01:03:19.520 fact that hey you've got demons and they

01:03:21.940 need and it sounds like you've been on

01:03:23.760 that journey and you've kind of got your

01:03:25.380 shit sorted out in many ways but there's

01:03:27.240 more there's always more always more and

01:03:29.040 you have to keep keep working on it but

01:03:31.160 one of the things that having someone

01:03:33.060 who looked into this deeply and looked

01:03:35.120 into the impact of trauma and the impact

01:03:38.340 of childhood experience and whatever on

01:03:41.160 the things that we seek out to look at and

01:03:43.420 whatever it was kind of always obvious

01:03:45.620 to me that and to me it was easiest to see

01:03:48.520 in that man-hating bit of feminism right

01:03:51.020 because I just looked at and and you you

01:03:54.160 know if you've been enough if you've been

01:03:56.060 around enough people you can start to see

01:03:58.500 people's childhoods and traumas manifest

01:04:02.140 themselves in the way they carry

01:04:03.560 themselves the ways they talk the way

01:04:05.160 they they carry themselves a lot of it

01:04:09.180 was just I had a bad experience with men

01:04:12.240 now the world must be a patriarchy so

01:04:15.620 that my experience isn't just me having

01:04:18.120 had a bad experience with one person but

01:04:20.800 rather it's the world yeah and now it

01:04:23.260 makes sense and at least I'm not the odd

01:04:25.100 one out here yeah it's all women all

01:04:27.820 women are victims and all men are evil

01:04:30.400 right and I'm just fortunate that my wife

01:04:33.140 is really the opposite of that so it was

01:04:35.360 easier for me to feel okay with that

01:04:37.180 belief because that's a scary belief for

01:04:39.380 a man to have in the modern world you

01:04:41.240 know yeah for a young man to have in the

01:04:43.660 modern world this idea that actually you

01:04:46.040 know it's not what you're being told in

01:04:47.680 many ways and I think that collective

01:04:50.800 self-sabotage is such a big part of

01:04:53.900 this isn't it it really really is because

01:04:56.480 it also speaks to

01:04:59.340 just the rejection of personal responsibility

01:05:04.680 which I know is very triggering for a lot

01:05:07.020 of people which just I think it's

01:05:09.740 hilarious but it's almost we've just made

01:05:15.580 projecting normal right if I'm going

01:05:18.060 through this very specific thing and if I

01:05:20.340 see a post I don't like or a conversation

01:05:23.000 that is happening that I don't like and I

01:05:25.160 have a emotional and physical response to

01:05:28.080 it I don't have to fucking deal with it

01:05:29.720 I'm gonna make sure that everyone else

01:05:31.500 fucking deals with it I'm gonna pour it

01:05:33.220 out into the world and because we have

01:05:35.260 channels like social media you don't even

01:05:37.960 have to it it incentivizes you to be as

01:05:41.680 reactive as possible you don't have to sit

01:05:43.960 with yourself and you can find your own

01:05:46.140 little community and echo chambers where

01:05:48.060 you can project your inner happenings and

01:05:50.740 then you're likely to find people that are

01:05:52.200 also in the exact same situation maybe they

01:05:54.380 don't want to take responsibility for what's

01:05:56.420 really happening because that's also another

01:05:58.440 really uncomfortable process but we've

01:06:01.560 rejected discomfort as an essential part

01:06:04.100 of growth and I always say that it's very

01:06:05.880 different from pain discomfort is essential

01:06:08.760 you will feel it whether you like it or

01:06:10.480 not but are you gonna deal with it and

01:06:13.080 people don't want to deal with it so they

01:06:15.320 project it outward everyone else is the

01:06:18.020 problem there's always some kind of system

01:06:19.720 and I do think there are systems that we

01:06:21.580 need to question but not everything needs to

01:06:23.920 be broken down not everything can be answered

01:06:26.000 by it's the system it's the patriarchy it's

01:06:29.660 whiteness there are so many intricacies to

01:06:32.480 all of that so what that happens is that it just

01:06:36.500 becomes a collective game everyone is just

01:06:39.000 sort of dancing in this disillusionment and

01:06:42.760 again I'm so fascinated by that and I'm more

01:06:46.660 interested in understanding what's really

01:06:49.980 happening there than just making it a woke or

01:06:52.740 anti-woke conversation I think it's much

01:06:55.100 more useful to think okay we're we seem to be

01:06:58.040 sabotaging ourselves as a collective we seem

01:07:00.920 to kind of want the same thing we just have

01:07:02.840 different ideas about how to get there we

01:07:05.420 seem to have a lot of people that are

01:07:07.040 emotionally unstable um right again right I

01:07:12.720 this is something as well that I'm researching

01:07:15.160 and speaking to different um just activists as

01:07:17.940 well because it's so easy to get famous to

01:07:22.440 have a platform someone might put an idea out

01:07:26.100 into the world I I agree with you especially

01:07:28.000 seeing it around 2018 in terms of just people

01:07:30.860 outwardly saying kill all men hate men etc and

01:07:34.320 then that goes viral now you have a brand it's

01:07:37.000 just a young person or a young girl someone who's

01:07:39.640 disgruntled or they've experienced something

01:07:42.000 very real but now they have a brand and now they

01:07:45.940 have to perform according to that very singular

01:07:49.200 message that made them who they are but now they

01:07:51.880 have 200,000 300,000 people following them and

01:07:56.020 now it becomes a collective game right yeah and

01:07:59.320 I remember especially at that time you had

01:08:02.220 people I won't mention who the particular

01:08:04.200 influencer of this was but now she's huge she

01:08:06.920 had a very successful book people divorcing

01:08:10.300 their partners breaking up with their boyfriends

01:08:12.540 because she's telling them to right but it's

01:08:16.200 someone who's not qualified and it's highly

01:08:18.140 unethical that's something that I also like how

01:08:20.560 unethical all of this is um but yeah it's people

01:08:24.880 who are very emotionally unstable most of the

01:08:27.180 time they need genuine mental health support but

01:08:31.240 then they find these very um attractive messages

01:08:37.340 that tell them that they don't they don't have to

01:08:39.600 take responsibility it's everyone else do you think

01:08:42.340 we're weaponizing guilt a lot of the time oh for sure

01:08:44.880 guilt and shame and and a lot of other things but I

01:08:47.320 would say guilt and shame especially yeah and and that

01:08:51.860 because this is what one of my friends that actually said

01:08:55.400 this to me we're talking about wokeness and uh he was an

01:08:59.600 asian guy and he was we were talking about it and he was

01:09:01.640 just like all it is it's just weaponizing white is uh is yeah

01:09:05.460 weaponizing white guilt was it was it weaponizing or

01:09:08.060 yeah he used that term right yeah yeah that's all it is

01:09:11.160 right that's all it is and you know who speaks about this

01:09:13.920 very well I don't know if you've spoken to him already

01:09:15.980 john john mcwater

01:09:17.380 oh gosh and his book woke racism um how a new religion betrayed black

01:09:25.440 america um I really appreciate that book because it's not just your

01:09:29.720 typical woke or anti-woke conversation he really delves deep

01:09:33.040 and look at how this is becoming a religion and I've heard many people

01:09:36.560 speaking about how it's very it's very much like a religion

01:09:39.620 but the very simple way in which he breaks that down I just think it's very

01:09:43.300 interesting for anyone who's curious even just to

01:09:45.800 see some of the conversations he's having just around this I think it allows

01:09:49.980 all of us to have language to what's happening

01:09:53.000 without thinking oh my goodness this thing is sudden it's come out of nowhere you

01:09:57.220 start to think actually this might be a bit more ancient than we think it's

01:10:01.740 just presenting itself in the modern world just in a very different and very

01:10:05.560 unique way well we're just apes with smartphones yeah aren't we and so a lot

01:10:09.920 of this stuff it's difficult because that's a that's a bit racist

01:10:13.220 actually

01:10:13.640 i said i have a smartphone i said we we suddenly i'm gonna be the only one

01:10:21.800 hosting this show that's all we are and so you know one of the things that i

01:10:28.320 often think about very carefully is the moment i see myself going down one of

01:10:34.680 these paths where it's like oh if i just go a

01:10:38.600 bit further i can get a few more retweets or whatever i instantly slap

01:10:43.700 myself in that moment when the moment i i start to notice that

01:10:47.380 and it's unfortunate that it happens and it happens a lot i've seen you know we've

01:10:52.100 seen people sit in that chair you know who go who go from on the similar

01:10:57.300 journey to you but their end point is way off the deep end because they they they

01:11:02.900 get caught in that process they get the the that that loop of oh if i just tweet

01:11:10.680 this you know and it it it it can take people it can take people on a journey to a

01:11:16.860 bad destination as well yeah oh that's such a good point to bring up

01:11:21.400 because another question i get quite often and i speak about it quite often

01:11:25.040 is just to make sure that you're not leaving

01:11:29.240 one echo chamber just to step into another one

01:11:32.260 because something i do see especially with a lot of the

01:11:35.660 anti-woke conversations anti-cancel culture

01:11:39.660 it's the exact same thing as before it's just dressed up differently and i think

01:11:45.000 that's something to be really mindful of which is why i'm find it so refreshing

01:11:50.000 which is why i love that i sat down with both of you and we're having this

01:11:53.700 conversation because it touches on all the other parts that maybe

01:11:57.340 people are not seeing because all they've done is just step out of one

01:12:01.760 echo chamber into another one it reinvent the exact same thing

01:12:05.180 and your ego starts to get um to really thrive off the attention that you get from being

01:12:12.920 purposefully either controversial or saying things for the sake of external validation etc which is

01:12:19.140 exactly what we're trying to right yeah so yeah well we all have to fight that yeah it is within

01:12:25.280 ourselves but it's also a deeper thing isn't it in that we we we all just want to try

01:12:30.240 yeah we just want to try and the moment you step out of your tribe you're terrified

01:12:35.300 you're on your own you know your people who you were your support network are no longer there

01:12:40.640 so you think to yourself oh there's a new tribe i can right and then you're right back where you

01:12:45.960 started just in a different way yeah the good thing about it for me is i don't want to be part

01:12:50.380 of any fucking tribe just get get your tribes away from me i don't want to be part i don't

01:12:55.320 want to be part of your woke tribe i don't want to be part of your right wing or anti-woke tribe

01:12:59.180 whatever it is i'm interested in the truth yes i'm interested in an honest discussion and an

01:13:05.180 honest discussion will never be right or left wing because an honest discussion requires nuance

01:13:10.520 and nuance is inevitably by including both sides in that conversation right that's why we're moving

01:13:16.700 in the direction that we're moving we never wanted to be an anti-woke show it's never been our intention

01:13:22.220 yeah never been on and it's not interesting to us right you know we are not in favor of wokeness

01:13:28.400 but we're not going to bang on about it endlessly i think like you said there's a lot of people now

01:13:32.920 speaking about it and there's more interesting conversations to be had like the one we've had

01:13:36.740 today yes yes i love that and we were saying that actually before we started recording that

01:13:41.920 um it's not about rejecting the importance of those times where it was it was essential to

01:13:49.080 express the frustration around what we know as wokeness um but then you get to move on from that i think

01:13:57.240 that's what some people don't remember that you don't have to stay stuck in that even if that is

01:14:01.320 what maybe got more attention at the time and what was current and what people needed you don't have to

01:14:06.580 stay stuck in that you can also evolve which goes against the very nature of everything we're being

01:14:12.700 told that people don't change that who you were 10 years ago five years ago is who you are right now

01:14:17.720 i think we get to disprove that by shifting the way you do approach conversations and i think you

01:14:24.080 you're both doing that very very well very well and it just shows the problems with labels that

01:14:29.480 immediately you put this label on or you use this label you get given a certain values which you have

01:14:35.740 to ascribe to then you were in a tribe and then like i said we don't solve anything yeah yeah we need

01:14:42.840 to step out of the tribe and actually be honest and it goes back to integrity and start saying

01:14:48.280 what we think and what we feel and realizing that people might disagree with us but if we ally so

01:14:53.700 closely with a particular group we're never going to be able to do that yes yeah africa we're without

01:14:59.860 noticing it we've been talking for way longer than we normally do because as you can tell we've i think

01:15:04.260 we've all enjoyed it but uh our time is up we're going to ask you a couple of questions for our locals

01:15:09.540 only supporters but before we do we've got one final question are you vaccinated

01:15:14.160 no i have a fake card

01:15:18.760 our actual final question is what's the one thing we're not talking about as a society that you think

01:15:29.440 we really should be can it be anything anything absolutely i think we need to revisit how fucking

01:15:35.540 good the sopranos is i've been watching it again and it's it's a really good study on human behavior

01:15:41.720 and for me it's a good study on goodness right how conflicted you can be on is someone good or are they

01:15:48.840 bad isn't holding multiple truths about a person um which is what we really need to be doing at this

01:15:55.280 moment in time i think we've got really stuck in binary thinking good or bad when actually we can

01:16:01.760 hold multiple truths about someone and for me i've been watching i mean i love cinema i think cinema

01:16:07.680 is a very good way to kind of just be able to even answer certain questions you have around just

01:16:14.200 existing in general and the sopranos for me is one of those fantastic well thank you so much for coming

01:16:20.220 on where can people find your work online yes so i the only social media i have is instagram at this

01:16:26.680 moment in time twitter i don't know how you both do it um i love it

01:16:31.860 you can find me africa think about it like i've got what like 95 000 followers i can piss off 95 000

01:16:40.280 people and the press of a button gosh isn't that incredible your resilience must be actually it is

01:16:46.880 it is i think people that are on twitter and can be on there and be okay you need to be a very resilient

01:16:52.860 person so i do admire that but i'm not on there yet just instagram it's at africa brook with an e at

01:16:58.900 the end and i have two podcasts as well um my podcast beyond the self is all about the individual

01:17:04.820 it's about how to focus on what you can control but it's not self-helpy abstract stuff it's really

01:17:10.460 practical um and i think i think you'll get a lot out of it um and then i have another podcast called

01:17:16.940 unfiltered with africa brook where i look at collective sabotage and it's about finding

01:17:22.900 middle ground in a divided world and i think your viewers especially will really enjoy that i'm sure

01:17:28.500 they will check it out thank you guys for watching and listening we'll see you very soon with another

01:17:33.000 brilliant interview like this one or a raw show which even very cool people like africa watch so

01:17:38.900 make sure you tune in for one of those there's three of those a week thursday friday saturday

01:17:42.100 and we'll see you very soon they always go out 7 p.m uk time and for those of you who like your

01:17:46.760 trigonometry on the go it's also available as a podcast take care and see you soon guys

01:17:52.200 we hope you've enjoyed this incredible interview remember to subscribe and hit the bell button so

01:17:59.380 that you never miss another fantastic episode and if you believe that the work we do here at

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TRIGGERnometry - January 06, 2022

＂They've Weaponised Guilt and Shame＂ - Africa Brooke

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