TRIGGERnometry - Trans Clinic Whistleblower Speaks Out - Jamie Reed

00:00:00.720 Mental health was getting worse once they started the blocker.

00:00:04.240 And that's against what the narrative tells us. The narrative says these interventions are

00:00:10.240 supposed to make people better. We were pretty much putting anybody on testosterone at 13 and

00:00:16.880 a half if that's what they wanted. It was getting to the point where we were harming more patients

00:00:21.840 that we were helping just by the numbers. What I am not in agreement with is this push

00:00:29.040 to rapid medicalization of children. And it got to the point in the center where

00:00:36.480 there was an actual directive that we were no longer allowed to use the phrase,

00:00:44.480 I have concerns about a patient. And in medicine, that should scare anyone.

00:00:59.040 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:06.480 I'm Constantine Kissinger.

00:01:08.160 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:13.520 Our very special guest today is a whistleblower from a transgender clinic in the United States.

00:01:18.880 Jamie Reid, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:20.640 Thank you for having me.

00:01:22.000 It's great to have you on the show. Listen, Francis and I have just both re-read your article for a

00:01:27.920 second time. We're going to talk about all the stuff that you said. One of the most terrifying

00:01:32.960 things that I've ever read, to be honest. And so I'm looking forward to speaking with you about it.

00:01:38.080 But before we get into that, just tell our audience who may not be familiar with you and

00:01:42.480 the story that you shared. Who are you? What's been your journey through life? How did you get to the

00:01:47.120 position that you got to? And what did you see there? And why did you decide to speak up?

00:01:51.440 Thank you for those questions. So I'm Jamie Reid. I have a master's of science in clinical research

00:01:59.200 management. And I was previously the caseworker in the pediatric transgender center at a clinic in

00:02:07.280 St. Louis, Missouri. So in the middle of the middle of America. I started, well, I spent about four years

00:02:16.160 and four months in that position. I worked at the university previous to working with trans kids. I was

00:02:23.520 working with young adults who were HIV positive. I have a lot of experience in case management.

00:02:30.240 I worked with kids who are in foster care. And I've also worked in a lot of medical and health settings

00:02:37.840 too. So I came into the clinic really excited about the opportunity that I thought was going to be to

00:02:44.720 help trans youth and their parents. And you mentioned in your article that, you know,

00:02:50.480 you're very progressive, you're married to a trans man, like, or in a relationship with

00:02:55.280 a trans man. Sorry, I don't remember which, but in any case, you're married. Well, congratulations.

00:03:00.000 So very progressive, you know, you come into this place wanting to make a difference, I assume.

00:03:06.800 And then over a period of time, you start to have doubts, and you try to express doubts,

00:03:12.880 and that doesn't go particularly well for you. And increasingly, you become very alarmed

00:03:18.800 at what you're seeing. So talk to us, you know, just at the very beginning of that,

00:03:22.720 Germany, you get there, you're all pumped and ready to go. And what happens?

00:03:28.480 Right away, I was struck by the lack of organization for the center. So there was no real written

00:03:38.640 protocols. It seemed like it was kind of a fly by the seat of the pants kind of operation. They had

00:03:45.200 already been open for a solid year before I got there. And yet, it seemed like they were kind of

00:03:51.840 operating outside of a lot of the normal structures that you'd see in medicine. Most of the departments

00:03:59.120 and divisions in medicine have a lot of layers, there's a lot of top heavy, there's a lot of,

00:04:05.840 you know, administrative roles. And it seemed like the center was kind of

00:04:09.680 off on its own, had this little pocket. And I was also struck at the very beginning because the

00:04:19.360 administration of this hospital let this clinic open. And I was told that they originally thought

00:04:25.280 that they were going to have about 50 patients total. And when I left, we were close to 2000.

00:04:33.440 Wow. Yeah, huge difference. Wow. And why do you think that was, Jamie? What do you think were the

00:04:42.000 reasons for that? I definitely have come to believe that in the United States, there is an element of

00:04:51.040 social contagion in play going on with young people who are seeking out care in gender centers. And I'm not

00:05:00.720 the only one to believe that. I had lots of parents report very similar things. And there were even a

00:05:08.720 number of patients in the center who would report and directly said, I only got this online.

00:05:16.960 Wow. So they only got this online because your article is very interesting because

00:05:21.680 you talk about when you started in the center, it was mainly boys suffering from gender dysphoria.

00:05:28.000 And then you started to see more and more girls come in. Were they the ones who were particularly 1.00

00:05:35.680 susceptible to this social contagion, as you put it?

00:05:40.960 I think it's well known in medicine that adolescent girls are just more 1.00

00:05:49.280 open and more susceptible to many different kinds of social contagions.

00:05:54.320 That has to do with a lot of ways that girls are socialized, but also the way that girls interact 1.00

00:06:02.400 in kind of group settings and pick up things and show empathy with those in their group setting,

00:06:09.840 oftentimes by taking on attributes in those group settings. So I didn't just see that these

00:06:16.960 kids were picking up gender as a social contagion. We have a lot of issues right now in my country 0.70

00:06:24.000 with adolescents who are experiencing tick disorders. They think they have Tourette's.

00:06:31.040 There's been a recent wave of young people believing that they have what they refer to as DID,

00:06:37.360 so multiple personalities. You are seeing these things directly coming from social media.

00:06:44.560 And Jamie, can I ask you a question? And sorry to sort of appear picky, but before you started talking

00:06:51.280 about how adolescent girls have certain problems, you kind of did like a little sigh, almost like you're

00:06:56.480 resigning yourself to having to say. Was part of your experience that even that very idea was

00:07:02.000 controversial in the environment that you were operating in?

00:07:04.400 Yeah. So you'll have to remember that in some ways I am deprogramming my language out of some cult-like

00:07:21.440 conversations. So even for me, I still take pause in using the phrase adolescent girls, because when you

00:07:30.320 work in a place like this, you don't say that. You say people are assigned female at birth.

00:07:35.840 You don't say people are boys. You say they are assigned male at birth. So even the way that we

00:07:42.240 spoke about everybody was in this framework of the gender ideology world.

00:07:48.720 Wow. So I know that to you, this seems kind of like normal, but to a person outside of that space,

00:07:59.840 just to clarify, in this transgender clinic, you would never refer to people as boys or girls or

00:08:06.960 men or women. You would say assigned female at birth.

00:08:10.160 That's transphobic to do so.

00:08:12.240 Wow.

00:08:13.760 Okay.

00:08:16.160 But even though biological sex is obviously real.

00:08:23.840 Oh, yes. Medicine is really interesting in this right now, because in some ways,

00:08:33.440 all of the doctors would clearly acknowledge biological sex. You would say someone was assigned

00:08:40.320 female at birth, assigned male at birth. Maybe you could use natal sex. 0.95

00:08:44.320 And they acknowledged its existence because if you're in the emergency room and you have somebody

00:08:52.240 who's coding and you're trying to figure out what their lung capacity is, there are definite medical

00:09:00.160 needs and times when your biological sex changes the course of the treatment.

00:09:07.040 But in our patient population, everyone was assigned female at birth, assigned male at birth.

00:09:18.400 You heard the term cis a lot, who's cisgender. We talked about how all of our patients were probably,

00:09:24.720 you know, would judge you if you walked in and they thought you were cis.

00:09:27.520 And those kind of things. It's it's it's it's constant.

00:09:32.720 And Jamie, how did this affect this type of language? How did this affect the way that you treated your patients?

00:09:38.240 I do think that the staff were always sort of on edge because it wasn't just the concern that you were providing good medical care,

00:09:52.400 but you also always had the concern. It has this patient's pronouns changed again.

00:09:59.440 And their preferred names were changing frequently. Even the term preferred name.

00:10:06.080 Sometimes people would say that's not that's, you know, activists would push that that you can't even say that because it's not it's it's not their preference.

00:10:13.920 It's their name, even though it's not their legal name. A lot of the staff that are hired into the clinics like this,

00:10:22.800 at least in the United States, are also activists and oftentimes directly there is a push to directly hire trans and LGBTQIA people to work in these clinics as the staff.

00:10:35.480 And so you join the clinic, you start working, you start noticing some of these things.

00:10:39.780 And when did you start to get really concerned? Because you were the person responsible for processing the intake of potential patients.

00:10:47.440 So you're getting these people in and going, you go here, you go there.

00:10:51.620 When did you feel like, whoa, like this is not good?

00:10:57.580 It was a slow process to get there.

00:11:01.420 There definitely was a point where I went from 10 intakes a month where there would be 10 newly referred young people to the numbers being in the 40s and 50s every single month.

00:11:17.320 And the cases were getting more and more outlandish or sometimes even completely bizarre.

00:11:30.920 In the states, oftentimes, if anything about gender gets brought up in a pediatrician's office, they immediately just refer you to the gender center.

00:11:40.780 So I could be getting an intake where a kid maybe told their parent three days ago that they thought they were non-binary and asking for they, them pronouns.

00:11:51.420 And yet they're already landing in a specialized medical clinic that does hormones.

00:11:58.540 So there were some intakes where it was just, it made absolutely no sense.

00:12:03.660 The entire concept of kids being allowed to explore their gender and explore these concepts have been almost wiped off the map.

00:12:12.580 And what would happen?

00:12:13.340 Let's say I bring my 12-year-old daughter to you.

00:12:17.700 Three days ago, she said that she's non-binary.

00:12:20.360 She wants they, them pronouns.

00:12:22.100 What happens to her from there?

00:12:25.120 So initially, I would try to be encouraging you as a parent to find a therapist and start working with a therapist for your kid.

00:12:33.660 Um, but the minute you're talking to me on the phone, you have already started on a pathway because the only therapists that I have to refer your kid to are therapists who are going to affirm their gender identity, not question it at all.

00:12:55.580 And potentially, as soon as I say, take your kid to that therapist, that therapist might see them for one or two visits and send them right back to the center to get started and seen by the people that prescribe hormones.

00:13:08.400 So three days ago, my daughter said, I think I'm non-binary because she saw on social media, let's say, I bring her to you, you send us to a therapist, therapist sees us a couple of times, sends us back to you in order to see a doctor to be prescribed hormones.

00:13:27.420 Potentially, yes. 0.99

00:13:29.180 Jesus fucking Christ. 0.99

00:13:30.560 Sorry for my language. 0.99

00:13:31.560 Okay.

00:13:31.700 So I think this is a very important part of the conversation because someone I know very close to me had a double mastectomy and that is a very, very serious operation.

00:13:44.320 It's a very serious operation and you know this better than anyone.

00:13:47.860 It can take months to recover from and actually the risk of complications with such an invasive type of surgery, the risks are high, to put it mildly.

00:13:57.000 So let's look at this.

00:13:59.480 What do we mean by puberty blockers?

00:14:02.200 What do we mean by these drugs?

00:14:04.060 And what are the potential side effects of these drugs?

00:14:08.680 So the puberty blockers we were using were mostly their implants that go into the arm or their injectables that are used on a monthly or three month basis.

00:14:22.240 And in our center, you had to be at least in the very initial start of puberty to get a puberty blocker.

00:14:32.160 But one of the things we were starting to see was that some of the kids put on the puberty blockers, mental health was getting worse once they started the blocker.

00:14:42.540 And that's against what the narrative tells us.

00:14:46.520 The narrative says these interventions are supposed to make people better.

00:14:51.360 And what we were seeing was parents calling and saying, my child has had the blocker in for a month.

00:14:58.320 They're crying every day.

00:15:00.300 They've had the blocker in for three months and they're now failing out of school.

00:15:04.320 Things that were supposed to be getting better were getting worse.

00:15:08.880 In the center that I worked in, I started there when we were still supposed to be operating under the WPATH guidelines, standard of care seven, which had some age kind of ideas for when people were supposed to start hormones.

00:15:29.200 WPATH 7 was supposed to be 16 and it said only in rare and, you know, kind of urgent cases should you be under the age of 16.

00:15:40.820 We were pretty much putting anybody on testosterone at 13 and a half if that's what they wanted and they got to us in time.

00:15:49.360 And what does that do to you if you are a young person who's been given testosterone?

00:15:54.580 Young girl.

00:15:56.060 Well, it depends.

00:15:57.060 Young female assigned at birth, sorry.

00:15:59.480 Well, no.

00:16:00.080 Even if you were given a blocker first and we blocked you and then put you on a cross-sex hormone, we are potentially basically causing you to be infertile for life. 0.88

00:16:15.420 And testosterone, you know, the effects that kids reported that they wanted happened pretty quick.

00:16:24.520 So, we would permanently affect your voice and your voice would be dropped into a male pitch. 0.94

00:16:30.900 You would see growth on your clitoris into what we would refer to as a micropenis. 1.00

00:16:37.540 We would start seeing atrophy and your vaginal canal would start to have atrophic features.

00:16:46.400 All of your body fat would start to move and shift around.

00:16:53.640 You would have facial hair growth.

00:16:55.800 A lot of our patients would start to start losing the hair on the top of their head.

00:17:00.340 And then we would see mood changes.

00:17:06.080 We would see patients who were, again, they were supposed to be getting better.

00:17:11.660 Their mental health was supposed to be getting better.

00:17:13.540 A lot of times it was not doing what we thought it was going to do.

00:17:17.300 And if you were on feminizing hormones, you would start growing breast tissue. 1.00

00:17:22.940 Your fat would move.

00:17:25.860 And again, if you were put on blockers first, it would render you potentially infertile for life.

00:17:31.740 And now we also know for the kids, the boys, if we block you and put you on feminizing hormones, 0.99

00:17:38.820 we also are potentially making you have sexual dysfunction for life. 0.97

00:17:44.380 What do you mean by sexual dysfunction? 0.96

00:17:46.020 Yeah. 1.00

00:17:47.300 So in the boys, blockers make it so that they never grow the penis or the testicles. 0.61

00:17:57.900 If you never go through puberty and you never have those hormones affect that area, 0.92

00:18:04.520 you are left with the same kind of penis size that you would have that kids have when they're little before they go through puberty. 0.71

00:18:11.780 And then also we knew that the feminizing hormones would make it so you had a lot of erectile dysfunction. 0.99

00:18:22.280 The testicles would shrink and we would be causing changes to that part of the body that were irreversible.

00:18:34.460 I hate to state the obvious, but those are some pretty major changes for a young person to undergo an experience.

00:18:43.200 And the fact that a young person could have that start happening to them after seeing a therapist twice and an endocrinologist once,

00:18:54.120 to me, does not ethically line up.

00:18:56.680 One of the other things that we should also talk about is it came to a point you talked about in your article that

00:19:06.160 sometimes there were situations, particularly if it went to court, if parents disagreed about this,

00:19:13.460 that you had a situation that you talk about where the mother, who was quite disturbed, based on your recollection at least,

00:19:20.780 insisted that her daughter, who wasn't particularly a typical case of someone who was experiencing genuine desire to transition,

00:19:29.820 was encouraged to transition by her mother against her father's wishes.

00:19:33.960 And the center where you worked for was essentially the one that was giving the recommendation to the judge

00:19:38.980 and made the recommendation that it should be the mother's opinion that essentially comes out on top.

00:19:44.960 So a parent was in a situation where the child was going through all of this without even consenting to it.

00:19:53.200 Right. We had that happen quite frequently.

00:19:57.000 And right now in the United States, it seems like in the courts,

00:20:02.840 the parents who want to give these drugs are the ones that are winning in the custody cases,

00:20:08.560 which to me, it just oftentimes the parents who didn't want to give the drugs,

00:20:17.700 all they were asking for was more time in therapy.

00:20:22.400 And even I they were losing, they're losing in court.

00:20:26.580 And I think in part because doctors like the doctors that worked in my center would show up in court

00:20:32.220 and testify on behalf of the parent who wanted to give the drugs right away.

00:20:36.200 Why is that?

00:20:40.800 Why would they do that?

00:20:42.480 Because it's the part of the ideological mindset that the thought is,

00:20:50.700 is that we have to give these drugs right away or else or else these kids are going to be harmed somehow.

00:21:00.060 So and you say ideological, is there not evidence to say that, you know, if you get in there early,

00:21:06.200 you can say that's the argument that people make.

00:21:08.500 You know, you get in there early, you save them the discomfort of later life developing,

00:21:12.960 you know, the anatomy of their birth sex, et cetera.

00:21:16.860 Is there evidence for this idea?

00:21:18.960 Um, not in the kinds of patients that are presenting currently.

00:21:23.200 And it depends.

00:21:25.380 So if you look back at the original study, it's often referred to as the Dutch study.

00:21:31.140 If you look back at the original study, they were screening out patients who had mental health concerns

00:21:38.300 because the goal of that treatment was, yes, to treat some dysphoria.

00:21:44.480 But there's not evidence that this treats major depressive disorder, borderline personality disorder, autism.

00:21:54.880 That's that's not what this is evidence to treat.

00:21:59.260 And yet the argument is, is that if we can medicalize somebody,

00:22:03.840 then all of their other mental health issues will somehow be alleviated.

00:22:08.620 And the reason you mentioned that, sorry, Francis, just to clarify this,

00:22:13.820 is that a lot of the new cases that you saw over and above what you expected,

00:22:18.620 these were very different profile.

00:22:20.140 They were not boys.

00:22:20.920 They were young girls who were presenting with eating disorders, autism, autism-like symptoms, et cetera.

00:22:27.500 Right.

00:22:28.220 That's why you bring it up.

00:22:29.560 Absolutely.

00:22:30.040 And they are, and they are girls who oftentimes there is a disagreement. 0.98

00:22:35.820 So they will claim that, oh, I felt like this my whole life.

00:22:40.280 And their parents initially will often say they had no gender issues at all as a child,

00:22:45.540 that they were absolutely normatively fine in their being a girl.

00:22:52.160 And it onset at 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.

00:22:58.380 What you were saying is completely antithetical to the creed that doctors are supposed to follow,

00:23:08.120 which is do no harm.

00:23:10.100 What you're saying and what I'm hearing is harm being inflicted on children, which is appalling.

00:23:17.400 Yes, that's what I came to finally understand, that maybe, maybe out of our huge number of patients,

00:23:29.100 there were a few patients that this model of care maybe helped.

00:23:34.780 But it was getting to the point where we were harming more patients that we were helping just by the numbers.

00:23:42.060 And so why, at that point, when girls with autism, I think you quoted the number of 30% are presenting themselves.

00:23:53.880 The 30% of autistic girls, when people with severe psychiatric illnesses are presenting themselves

00:24:00.980 and have been putting through transition, including some of the awful cases that you've spoken about,

00:24:06.280 why hasn't there been more people coming out and talking about this or more people wanting to stop this?

00:24:16.120 So I do think those people, I think that there are more people like me.

00:24:20.900 And I know that I've spoken to a number of them since I have come forward.

00:24:26.940 But if you even look at what has happened to me in my own local press, those, basically the voice of reason,

00:24:39.720 the voice of can we slow down, the voice of we need to actually look at who we're hurting,

00:24:44.820 is being drowned out right now and we're being shouted down and screamed out by this idea

00:24:50.020 that the fact that I say anything is somehow is going to hurt and harm trans kids.

00:24:57.700 So what has been the treatment that you've received from the local press?

00:25:03.500 I can't even count the number of articles and all they do is have vilified me.

00:25:11.820 And they also vilify me in strange ways where I just wonder,

00:25:18.000 a lot of America right now is liking to pretend like y'all in England don't exist

00:25:24.040 or that Sweden doesn't exist or Finland doesn't exist or nor none of the countries like your country

00:25:30.740 that's actually starting to have some kind of a dialogue around this.

00:25:35.180 All the local media would like to think that America is in its own bubble

00:25:39.880 and we know what's right on this topic and no one else exists.

00:25:44.420 Well, the reason I ask is we've spoken to a lot of people about this issue from all sorts of different angles

00:25:50.580 and the usual stuff is they're a transphobe, whatever.

00:25:53.780 But you're married to a trans man.

00:25:55.620 How transphobic can you be?

00:25:57.100 I also had identified as genderqueer in the past

00:26:03.920 and I experienced a lot of gender dysphoria as a child myself.

00:26:07.440 I am not opposed to adult transitioning.

00:26:14.100 I do still think that adults who are transitioning would benefit by support of a therapist

00:26:20.340 and a therapeutic process, but I am not in any way opposed to trans people.

00:26:26.840 I also have an undergrad in anthropology.

00:26:28.880 I fully understand that there is a lot of diversity in gender and gender presentation,

00:26:35.000 but what I am not in agreement with is this push to rapid medicalization of children

00:26:42.320 and also the current model doesn't even, it doesn't even make sense if you're actually pro-diversity

00:26:52.300 because if, if I am pro-gender diversity, why are we telling little kids that if they play with a toy

00:27:01.280 that is not in their gender category, that somehow that means that they're trans?

00:27:06.600 Like I thought it's 2023, shouldn't we be telling our children you can wear whatever you want,

00:27:12.360 you can play with whatever toys you want, you can have whatever job you want

00:27:15.320 and instead we've, we're in some like weird 1950s thing where if a boy plays with a Barbie

00:27:21.600 suddenly his parents think that he needs to go to a gender clinic and it means that they're trans?

00:27:28.920 Do you know the thing that I find quite unusual as well is that in a society like America,

00:27:35.180 which is so litigious, where people sue others at the drop of a hat,

00:27:41.520 you have the minimum of medical checks, fast tracking not only people but children.

00:27:49.960 Children, children and young, some very young children at that through to irreversible medical procedures.

00:27:59.540 I mean, that's just, I mean, that's just a million dollar lawsuit waiting to happen, isn't it?

00:28:04.500 No, because unfortunately the, the institutions that are supposed to,

00:28:14.300 okay, let me explain.

00:28:16.620 So if you go and try to file that lawsuit in the United States today,

00:28:20.720 the doctors and the hospitals are able to say that the American Academy of Pediatrics says that this is right,

00:28:28.220 the Endocrine Society says this is right, and they tried it,

00:28:31.200 they can just claim that they're just following all of these medical guidelines.

00:28:37.500 Um, I, I did not believe that where I worked was following even these quote guidelines,

00:28:46.800 but judges, I think thus far have been taking that at that easy face value.

00:28:54.280 I mean, you hear it in the news, well, the American, you know,

00:28:57.000 all of the American medical establishments agree with this kind of care.

00:29:02.980 And I, it doesn't line up.

00:29:09.000 No, it doesn't.

00:29:10.100 And I suppose just to give people an example of what you're talking about,

00:29:14.580 you talk in your article about a case where there was a girl who had a double mastectomy.

00:29:20.600 She had her breast removed. 1.00

00:29:21.980 I think it's 16, uh, if I'm remembering correctly, or around that time.

00:29:27.360 Sorry, go ahead and correct me.

00:29:28.820 No, I think if, if you're talking about the patient who called a few months later and asked

00:29:33.760 to have her breast put back on, she was not a minor, but she was young.

00:29:38.440 She was 18 or 19 when we did the surgery.

00:29:41.320 So she has her breast removed. 1.00

00:29:43.100 A few months later, she calls up and says, I'm a girl. 0.88

00:29:46.700 I want my breasts back. 0.99

00:29:48.280 I mean, a horrifying story in and of itself. 0.98

00:29:50.640 And she's pregnant. 0.96

00:29:52.540 So she's not going to be able to breastfeed her child. 1.00

00:29:54.900 The most horrific thing, I think, well, one of the most horrific things that could happen

00:29:58.920 to a young woman, you were saying she can't sue the people who advised her and put her

00:30:05.500 through that.

00:30:07.420 I am not a lawyer.

00:30:08.800 Successful.

00:30:09.160 I'm not a lawyer.

00:30:10.140 So I don't know.

00:30:12.240 Yeah.

00:30:12.640 There is potentially a case there, but I know that, um, the way that the surgeons and the

00:30:18.680 way that the center responded was that she made the choice.

00:30:23.780 Yeah.

00:30:24.900 Yeah.

00:30:25.460 And I think we see that with the detransitioners and some of them are minors and they will 1.00

00:30:30.840 say, well, your parent made the choice.

00:30:33.080 Your parent agreed.

00:30:34.220 And that's kind of the question here, isn't it?

00:30:36.020 Because one of the most mind boggling things about this ideology, as you describe it, is,

00:30:43.180 uh, you know, I am myself not a progressive.

00:30:46.780 Uh, I'm, I'm also not somewhere in the middle, but I thought one of the most central elements

00:30:51.100 of progressivism was this increased attention towards the idea of consent.

00:30:55.440 People shouldn't do things, uh, you know, to other people without their consent.

00:31:00.680 But I don't know about anyone, but it doesn't seem to me like a 15 year old or a 16 year old,

00:31:08.040 frankly, even an 18 year old from a very troubled background like this young woman is really capable 0.97

00:31:13.200 of consenting to those things with, you know, a full proper understanding of the impact.

00:31:21.400 But these kids want these things.

00:31:26.140 So in, so in these family dynamics and in these centers, these kids show up and they were demanding

00:31:35.460 this from their parents yesterday and their whole household has been in chaos because this

00:31:42.340 kid has decided that the best thing for them right now is to start testosterone tomorrow.

00:31:48.500 And I don't even know how you can, okay, part of medical ethics and part of actual consenting

00:31:59.120 has to be that you're not under any undue influence.

00:32:05.060 So we think about that sometimes in, in really, you know, bad medical case.

00:32:11.700 Like if you were just told you have cancer and you, and it's potentially, you know, a very

00:32:18.180 bad cancer, we don't want to tell you 10 minutes later, would you like to be in this research

00:32:24.260 study for this drug? Because we're putting you in an undue influence. And sometimes we even say,

00:32:31.580 maybe you're, maybe the person who's going to treat your cancer shouldn't be the person who

00:32:36.560 asks you if you want to do this procedure. It should be somebody neutral. So you're,

00:32:41.080 you know, so we think about these things in medical ethics. In medical ethics, those young

00:32:47.660 people, I believe, are in a situation where they have undue influence. They are being influenced

00:32:54.560 by a socially mediated cultural phenomenon. And the only way that they truly could give consent

00:33:02.580 to that treatment is if they have been out of that phenomenon and out of that social pressure

00:33:08.360 for long enough, i.e. potentially an adult, to then provide that real consent. Or, or we could

00:33:16.860 just, you know, shut off all social media and tell them they can't look at this stuff and then ask

00:33:22.640 them, you know, if you have a, if you have a 15 year old girl who's in the middle of this belief

00:33:27.460 and we put her in the middle of Montana with no internet access on a horse farm, she potentially 1.00

00:33:35.240 might not want testosterone 12 months down the line, but that's the level they're, they're under

00:33:40.760 so much influence. It's from their school, it's from their peers, it's from the social media,

00:33:45.220 and they want this right now. That makes sense. But Jamie, on top of all of that, though,

00:33:51.920 it's a kind of basic principle of our societies that children can't consent to anything really.

00:33:57.180 Right. You can't, you can't drink or take drugs or have sex, lots of other much more,

00:34:03.940 much less significant things in terms of the impact on your life and the lives of other people

00:34:08.200 around you. You can't get a bad tattoo and be stuck with it. You have to be 18 to get bad tattoos.

00:34:15.940 So you can get a tattoo. You can't get a tattoo, but you can get, you can get hormones and potentially

00:34:22.040 double mastectomy. Is that not, is that just, I mean, sorry, but is that not insane?

00:34:30.480 It, it is to me now. It was not to me then.

00:34:36.960 I'm not having a go at you. I'm trying to flesh out the issue itself. Do you see what I'm saying?

00:34:41.040 Yeah. No, I, yeah, I get it. I get it.

00:34:46.080 But, and Jamie, again, there is no blame attached to this. What we're trying to do

00:34:50.180 is we're just trying to understand how these places work. And you say it wasn't obvious to you.

00:34:57.900 Why was that?

00:34:58.900 So many of the, the people who worked, who I worked with, and I think that a lot of the people

00:35:09.620 that work in these centers and in medicine and in pediatrics in general have a huge heart.

00:35:15.760 They really do care. And they really do think that this is the way to help these kids.

00:35:23.360 And I also think that when you are faced with so much distress, so much chaos, these kids are hurting.

00:35:37.040 They are maybe saying that they're suicidal, that they're self-harming, that they are, they are

00:35:41.980 struggling. I think on some level, it's easier to say, well, we'll give you what you want than to

00:35:49.200 stand up and be the grownup and say, no, we're not doing that right now. And instead we have to

00:35:55.720 do other things. And then we also have to support the parents because if you have parents who have

00:36:02.840 been trying to deal with their kid, who's been demanding testosterone, demanding this new name,

00:36:10.700 demanding these new pronouns, demanding these clothes and this, and these kids are telling their

00:36:15.720 parents, it's the only thing that's going to keep me from killing myself. How do we support those

00:36:20.240 parents to also say, no, we need to slow down and we need to think about this?

00:36:26.260 Do you think part of the problem is, and I'm going to go back to the litigious point, 0.74

00:36:30.200 is that these clinics are worried that if they don't do something, and then let's say the kid does

00:36:35.520 something rash or, you know, what, you know, tries to kill themselves, that they are then going to be

00:36:42.080 held responsible for not putting correct interventions in place? Because someone will

00:36:46.680 come to them and go, look, this kid said they were suicidal. They said they were gender dysphoric.

00:36:52.080 You chose not, you chose not to give the correct procedures. So we just call it like that

00:36:58.180 in place. As a result, this kid attempted suicide. You're at fault.

00:37:03.140 So my answer is complicated here. So I've worked with young people who are expressing suicidal

00:37:12.440 ideations thoughts for a really long time. I am not trying to downplay suicidal thoughts in trans

00:37:22.420 kids. But I saw more suicides in kids within the foster care system and kids who were HIV positive

00:37:35.840 as a young person than we saw in the pediatric gender center. And a lot of the kids in the gender

00:37:48.500 center, their suicidal thoughts are different. So oftentimes, when we would send them, these are seen

00:38:03.560 more as threats and not attempts. That's not to say that we didn't have patients who did have true

00:38:13.500 suicidal ideations. But I think as a whole, the statistics do not show that there are that

00:38:25.400 high numbers of completed suicides in this.

00:38:30.500 And very much on that subject, and I know it's a tricky thing to ask you, but I feel like I should.

00:38:36.320 We've heard from other guests that quite often, because this idea of being trans or whatever is

00:38:43.320 social media driven, the kids are actually getting instructions on how to talk to somebody like

00:38:49.260 you to get what they need. So not all of them, but some of them are coming in and saying,

00:38:56.460 oh, I'm suicidal, because they know that's what gets the thing that they want. Is that happening?

00:39:01.360 It is. But the thing that scares me a little bit too, is that some of the parents are doing the same

00:39:06.900 thing. So I had some parents who would call to complete an intake with me. And they would describe

00:39:14.260 the situation. And I would say, hey, from what you're describing, it sounds like your kid is just

00:39:20.140 experiencing some normal gender questioning. It does not warrant the need to be seen in a gender

00:39:27.120 center. And then they would sometimes press me and find out kind of, well, what are the things that

00:39:33.120 warrant you being seen in a gender center? And then magically, mom would call me back 0.97

00:39:40.760 a month later. And now suddenly, kiddo has expressed exactly what I told mom was needed to meet that

00:39:50.520 criteria. I had parents even tell me things like, my kid likes to play with this toy. And then they

00:40:00.860 would tell me that they went and bought all of the kids books they could find on Amazon about being

00:40:05.980 trans and that they had hidden and sprinkled the trans kids books all throughout the house 0.82

00:40:11.640 for their kids to find. And those were cases that just, there's something going on.

00:40:22.340 And I know it's unfair to ask you to speculate about other people's intentions, but do you have any

00:40:27.880 sense of why a parent would want to do that? I think you had a guest on maybe before who talked

00:40:36.920 a little bit about how, you know, to be a really, to be a truly good liberal parent right now is to

00:40:44.240 kind of allow your kid to, it's like gone so far in one direction where, you know, if your kid expresses

00:40:54.840 the slightest non-gender type role, you know, you immediately need to start affirming and asking

00:41:04.140 them. I mean, I had parents talk about how they would have all their kids close their eyes in like

00:41:09.340 a circle in their house in some like weird seance-y thing and then open their eyes and tell us what

00:41:16.980 your inner gender is now. So this is parents literally seeding these ideas into the heads of

00:41:24.160 their own children. Yes.

00:41:28.380 My question is, and by the way, just for clarification, I don't know if you know this,

00:41:33.020 I was a teacher for a long time and I taught across all sectors and I taught in girls' schools as well.

00:41:38.500 So I saw how social contagion worked, particularly with young girls.

00:41:42.820 When I taught in girls' schools, it was late noughties. So back then, there wasn't really

00:41:48.180 any of the trans stuff. It was mainly anorexia. But I look at this and I go, that's child abuse.

00:41:56.720 That is child abuse. Because if I was a teacher and I heard that this was being done to a kid

00:42:02.640 who I was teaching, I would report them to social services. That would be my duty as a teacher in the

00:42:09.940 UK. And if I didn't do that, I would not be fulfilling my role. I would not be, as we called

00:42:17.120 in the UK, in loco parentis.

00:42:21.680 Yes. And there were a few cases where I would agree with you.

00:42:26.060 And that is also part of the problem in the media right now. Because oftentimes the parents

00:42:37.580 that are so gung-ho to talk to the news about how this saved their kid's life and how their

00:42:43.940 kid is doing so well are like these really hardcore activist parents who bought all the way in.

00:42:51.300 And they're the ones drum-beating this too.

00:42:57.300 And why is this ideology so powerful? Why is it that it can take hold of people like this

00:43:04.860 to the point that they do this to their own children and create significant long-term harm?

00:43:13.000 So in the liberal view right now in the United States, there is this huge kind of, so to be a white 0.96

00:43:32.000 person in the United States with privilege and to be middle class and to be able to afford things for

00:43:39.220 your kids. And to be able to kind of, to be in this privileged position is seen as a negative for a lot

00:43:51.680 of liberal people. And so I do feel like being trans has become this thing that you can't question.

00:44:03.160 So you, you can't really easily change. You can't say you're of a different race in the United States.

00:44:10.620 You can't claim ethnic background if you don't have it. You can't, I mean, who's going to claim that 0.94

00:44:16.180 they're poor? I mean, and if you, if you identify as gay or lesbian, you know, that gets uncomfortable

00:44:26.880 pretty quickly if you, if you're not really gay or lesbian, but for these young people, you can claim

00:44:34.500 that you're non-binary and throw they them pronouns up and, and suddenly you're in the, you're in the

00:44:42.980 group that's no longer the oppressor. You are in the oppressed group. And I think part of why this has

00:44:51.800 such these strong tentacles is nobody in my country ever wants to tell somebody who's in, you know,

00:44:59.120 what we view as an oppressive group that they're not, and nobody wants to be seen as the oppressor.

00:45:07.040 And, but, and I accept that. And again, this is, there is no blame attached to this whatsoever.

00:45:13.480 I'm just exploring. What about the adults? What about the medical professionals? Isn't it their

00:45:22.260 job to make that decision? That's what you went to college for. That's what you studied. That's why

00:45:27.520 you put yourself through a medical degree. That's why you're in that position for you to make that

00:45:33.720 choice. Do you see what I mean? And to me, but you, but the culture is so harsh right now that

00:45:43.320 if they were to say no to a patient, then they were going to get, you're going to get blasted on 0.97

00:45:50.360 social media that you're a transphobic doctor that you. And what does that mean? Because on social

00:46:00.160 media, you're blinded as a transphobic doctor. What does that mean for your career? What does that

00:46:03.860 mean for your prospects? What does that mean for the way people perceive you?

00:46:07.520 Um, I can speak from my own position, which is that I am the, I am the hated outsider. Um, I, um, I,

00:46:19.480 I was in a very interesting position to become a whistleblower. I'm basically a Luddite. I,

00:46:27.000 I, I had no social media to speak of. I had nothing to get destroyed or taken away from me. My Twitter,

00:46:34.740 I had none of that. I, I'm an old school Luddite. And I also was an anarchist in the nineties. And,

00:46:43.060 you know, I remember the black block and the WTO protests and I lived in an anarchist collective.

00:46:48.180 Like I kind of had a really thick skin, but I also remember those kinds of politics. And I remember,

00:46:55.300 um, standing up for something and, and knowing that even if you're going to get,

00:47:02.960 you know, everybody pile on you, that, that you'll find that, that the other activists are

00:47:09.360 out there, they might be small and it might be a small group, but, but I felt firm enough in my own

00:47:16.000 internal convictions. And I worry that we're in a culture right now because of the way social media

00:47:23.220 has changed, that it's so external. The judgment is so external, not internal that for so many people,

00:47:28.880 even adults. It takes a lot of strength to, to go up against your dominant culture.

00:47:35.960 It does. And, uh, that's one of the reasons I really want to thank you for, for coming out and,

00:47:40.420 and talking about this because I think it's super important. And one of the things we haven't yet

00:47:45.700 talked about in detail is what happened internally when you started speaking up about this, because you

00:47:52.860 started to ask questions, didn't you? I did. Um, I started asking questions often and it got to the

00:47:59.400 point where I even was having conversations one-on-one with the doctor saying, I, we are

00:48:04.800 harming children. We are doing this. Um, what would they say? So it's interesting because I, I only

00:48:12.500 recently read the Hannah Barnes book about the Tavistock and I was, it was almost the exact same

00:48:18.180 response, which I was told my tone was wrong, that I was, I shouldn't be directly challenging

00:48:24.600 doctors in team meetings, that I was out of my lane, that I was, um, it was almost identical what

00:48:32.520 happened at Tavistock. Um, and the way that I was kind of treated was I was the annoying squeaky

00:48:39.380 wheel. Oh, we know Jamie's gonna have another issue. And it got to the point in the center where

00:48:45.380 there was a, an actual directive that we were no longer allowed to use the phrase, I have concerns

00:48:56.400 about a patient. And in medicine, that should scare anyone because,

00:49:06.100 because if your surgeon comes in and the nurse thinks that they're drunk, sure as hell that nurse

00:49:14.500 should be able to say, I have concerns about this patient right now. And we need to stop.

00:49:19.300 We need medicine needs people who are empowered by their medical institution to speak up nurses,

00:49:29.360 social workers, case managers. You think someone was given the wrong dose. You think they're going

00:49:33.820 to cut off the wrong limb. Like you have to have all of these layers in medicine, have to have people

00:49:39.180 who are empowered and encouraged to stand up. And instead it was routinely be quiet, stop, you're

00:49:47.820 wrong, be quiet, stop. And it got to the point finally, where we were told get on board or get out.

00:49:54.300 And that was, that was the final.

00:49:58.220 You say we, were there other people at the center who agreed with you?

00:50:01.620 We, we didn't always agree for the same reasons, but there were a few other people who, who agreed.

00:50:09.460 Okay. And you mentioned the same concerns.

00:50:12.380 Yeah. And you mentioned speaking directly one-on-one with doctors. So if you come to a doctor

00:50:18.840 in that sort of clinic and you would say, I think we're harming the, these children,

00:50:24.100 other than shut up and stop raising it, did they, did they have any counter arguments or any explanation

00:50:30.840 for why you, what they were doing, what they were doing?

00:50:34.540 Um, sometimes it would be, well, what do you want me to do instead?

00:50:40.400 Come up with a different solution then.

00:50:44.000 And I think part of that is that the whole model of care is so

00:50:49.880 upside down right now that it's like every, that they're, that the doctors are even just a cog in the

00:50:58.460 spinning machine. And they're like, the only way I know how to spin is this way. Like you're telling

00:51:03.320 me we're hurting people, but they would be like, what, how do I do differently? Because then it

00:51:09.020 would have to stop. It was almost like for them to actually stop and think would have to stop the

00:51:17.000 whole mechanism. The whole machine would have to stop because it's not just their portion. It's the

00:51:23.460 therapist portion. It's the parents portion. It's the kids themselves. It's the hospital. It's like

00:51:27.740 all this whole machine is spinning. And, and they were like, what, what do I do? And I guess in some

00:51:35.480 ways I just got to the point where I was like, you know, this whole machine just has to stop right

00:51:41.120 now because the way that it's going is just, it's not. It sort of sounds what you're describing is

00:51:48.320 like a little bit like a conveyor belt where it's like, yeah. Right. And then you're going up to one

00:51:53.880 person at one point and you're going, well, don't put this bit in. And they're going, well,

00:51:57.940 there's a whole machine here. There's a whole conveyor belt. You know, this is my job. I give

00:52:01.720 four months or I do this or I do that. Right. Yes, exactly. And this is what they call the

00:52:06.500 affirmative model where essentially the moment a kid says I'm dysphoric from that point on,

00:52:13.040 they're just on the conveyor belt and there's no getting off unless they themselves have a change of

00:52:18.120 heart. Right. As long as the kid is saying, I want that as the end, then that's what the kid's going to get.

00:52:22.820 Yeah. And you said upside down and that really is upside down because as we talked about earlier,

00:52:28.140 a child cannot really consent, but they are driving this whole thing is what you're telling us.

00:52:32.660 Oh, that the language even in some of the activist groups is that you're supposed to be child led,

00:52:38.540 that the child's supposed to be leading this. And here's the thing about kids. Kids who think that

00:52:44.620 they're the ones who are supposed to make the decision are actually in more distress and are in more

00:52:51.280 pain because they feel like there's no grownups in the room who are in charge. And as a parent,

00:53:02.380 I know for my own kids, they do better in life when I can say things to them like, hey,

00:53:09.100 this is not your decision. We're the grownups. We've got this handled. We know what we're doing.

00:53:15.740 You can go be a kid. Do not worry about these things. And as they get older, you maybe add a

00:53:22.920 little bit more like, no, at Disneyland, you cannot buy the whole toy store because

00:53:27.400 grownups only have this much money. And you slowly start giving them some senses of choice. But no,

00:53:35.440 a 14 year old does not want to think that they have to make the decision for what the whole rest of

00:53:41.680 their life is for their fertility and for their medical care.

00:53:46.200 No, I mean, it's absolutely spot on. It's why all this child centered, I see, I saw it towards

00:53:52.680 the end of my time in education. They called it child centered learning where the child was in

00:53:57.700 charge of their learning. And I was like, I don't think an eight year old should be in charge of

00:54:01.680 their learning. It's just, I don't think an eight year old should be in charge of my dinner choice

00:54:07.120 for tonight because they're not going to choose. I mean, no, yeah. Ice cream and jello for you

00:54:13.560 tonight. Yeah. Jamie, listen, we joke, of course, but the one thing, look, I became a parent about

00:54:19.820 11 months ago, you know, and when I think about this, that's the prison through which I'm thinking

00:54:25.380 about. I've got this beautiful baby boy. He's pure potentiality. He's growing up. He's wonderful.

00:54:32.060 And then fast forward a few years and they fly by. And let's say he's been on TikTok or whatever,

00:54:40.200 which he's not going to be at this rate, but let's say that he was. And we, he says that he's

00:54:45.700 experiencing distress. The household is in turmoil, as you described. And we, the good parents,

00:54:51.780 take them to professionals for help. And then three months later, he's on puberty blockers

00:55:02.080 and estrogen. And, and, and in, in the case that you described, some of them are taking like cancer

00:55:08.520 drugs. Yep. Yeah. I mean, the question I think parents would want to ask you, Jamie, is what should

00:55:17.440 you do if that is what happens to your child? I think that's a really good question. And first of

00:55:24.120 all, there are a whole lot of parents out there who can answer this question also. And what I found

00:55:29.880 frustrating with the media is there are a lot of parents who wanted to talk to my local media

00:55:35.160 because they had a kid in that situation and they knew better than to take their kid to the center that

00:55:42.340 I work at. They already figured it out. I cannot go there. I cannot take my kid there unless I want

00:55:48.880 X, Y, and Z as the outcome. But again, parents can be a parent. One of the things as the caseworker

00:55:57.380 in the center, I found really shocking for a lot of these parents is you do get to have some of the

00:56:03.800 control and say over your child's social media use. There are parental controls. My poor kids,

00:56:10.180 their cell phones, still sleep in the kitchen. You don't, you don't have your cell phone with you

00:56:15.280 in the middle of the night in your room at 12. That's insane. Nobody needs that. And the parents

00:56:21.620 would be like, oh, well, they use sleep music. I'm like, no, get this, put some levers and controls

00:56:28.860 back in being a parent. But also, these kids right now are under a lot of mental health stress and

00:56:39.460 issues. And you need to find a good pediatrician. If you think your kid is expressing, you know,

00:56:46.340 anxiety or depression, regardless of the gender, focus on those things. Focus on the basics. These

00:56:52.640 kids are kids who are not going to school very well or often, need friends groups, need to go outside and

00:57:00.120 get exercise, need to sleep. We are seeing that a ton of these kids had terrible sleep hygiene,

00:57:06.320 need to eat real food. I mean, some of these things are from, you know, the beginnings,

00:57:12.000 the basics as parents, as do these healthy things from the start. And then if your kid does come to

00:57:18.500 you and say they're experiencing X, Y, and G things about their gender, my answer is normally 0.99

00:57:24.540 normative gender exploration is fine. Wear whatever clothes you want within reason. You still have to 1.00

00:57:32.220 be dressed. I don't care what your hair looks like. I don't care if you're a boy and you want to wear 0.99

00:57:37.980 makeup or nail polish. Who cares? Let those social gender things, can we actually like be a little bit 1.00

00:57:46.540 more flexible with those things? Let your kids explore. But no, you don't need to change everybody's

00:57:54.360 pronouns. Your name cannot change 12 times. If you want a nickname, fine. But no, you don't need a binder.

00:58:00.320 You don't need, you don't need to do all of these things and you really do not need to be medically

00:58:06.140 intervening. Let them explore and give them a way out. Tell them as the parent, explore this stuff. Try

00:58:16.120 this on. But if you try this and you don't like it, then we can change. We can go back. You can get

00:58:22.240 different clothes. You can grow your hair back out. Don't pigeonhole your kid into this, into this thing.

00:58:28.340 And Jamie, what about the detransitioners? What about the kids who've gone through the conveyor belt

00:58:35.180 and they've had the, you know, the surgeries and medicalization? They've come out the other side.

00:58:41.500 They've realized that this has all been a horrendous mistake. What happens to them?

00:58:46.680 The medical establishment right now is completely, completely ignoring them and pretending like they

00:58:56.760 don't exist. So the centers don't see them. There really is no care provided. And

00:59:06.380 I think that part of my hope for centers like this is that not only do we actually pause this

00:59:19.460 crazy experiment that's going on, but then also really focus on providing medical support and care

00:59:29.640 for all of those kids. And I also think we do need to recognize that there are going to be

00:59:35.380 long-term outcomes that might need some legal financial support. Because if you are like Chloe

00:59:45.180 Cole and you had a double mastectomy at 13 and you're now just now 18, the financial damages

00:59:54.260 for her could not even really be calculated. Probably it would have to look at her whole

01:00:03.440 lifetime. What has this done to her fertility, her, her bonding with her child, her ability to

01:00:08.920 breastfeed, like those things deserve a financial answer. And hopefully also that we stop doing this 0.79

01:00:17.200 to anyone else. Well, Jamie, to read between the lines and to summarize it in the blunt Russian way 0.93

01:00:23.600 as only I can, it sounds like what you're saying is this is a medical malpractice scandal on a large

01:00:29.760 scale that is going to blow up in people's faces very soon, in your opinion, or at least should blow up

01:00:36.180 in people's faces very soon. Yeah, I think you kind of nailed it.

01:00:41.960 Well, you know what, when you get someone on the show to talk about it, who's, you know,

01:00:49.740 is a journalist or they have an opinion for, you know, they talk for a living and whatever,

01:00:54.320 you sort of go, well, you know, are you qualified to talk about it? But, you know, talking to you

01:00:58.620 about it has really clarified a lot of things in my mind because you've seen it from the inside and

01:01:03.560 you were involved in, you know, working with this. I suppose the one counter argument people sometimes

01:01:08.700 make is I have heard some people who are on board with this stuff say that, oh, detransitioners are

01:01:14.800 a very small percentage. You know, any medical treatment has some people who are not happy with

01:01:19.860 the outcome. If you go and have some kind of, you know, if you go and get a hip replacement,

01:01:24.900 there's a whatever percent failure and people get upset that the hip didn't get replaced correctly.

01:01:29.580 What, what, what, what say you to them?

01:01:34.080 Yes, there are, there are definite medical interventions that are done that can have poor

01:01:43.040 outcomes. However, this is systematic. This is almost universal. And this is not even touching on the,

01:01:55.980 the outcomes that we are also. So an outcome of somebody who's detransitioning.

01:02:04.540 But the outcome of somebody who is 13 and put on testosterone by 26, they're potentially going to

01:02:11.340 also be on a cholesterol medication, a diabetes medication, have heart complications, have an

01:02:16.660 early cardiac arrest. We know that these drugs just longitudinally are not healthy, good

01:02:25.640 drugs. They're harsh. They're hard on the body. These are hard things to continuously have to use.

01:02:33.720 And so I think part of the reason why it's, it's just a broader medical scandal is that

01:02:40.300 even in the best case outcome, where someone's happy with that transition, their body is still going to

01:02:49.020 have medical problems and complications from the use of these drugs. And also, I think just as

01:02:55.620 a society, I thought we had gotten to the point where we were done sterilizing kids. Just, I just

01:03:02.940 thought we were done doing that. And recognize that to be its own kind of problematic thing that we

01:03:13.100 weren't, we weren't going to be doing that anymore. And I'm also a gay person. And I just feel like

01:03:19.620 we're also kind of, what are we doing to this whole group of kids that are potentially just gay kids? 0.85

01:03:27.440 The phrase people use is, you're transing away the gay. 0.71

01:03:31.160 Yeah. 0.95

01:03:31.320 Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's been an uplifting episode anyway.

01:03:38.840 But Jamie, thank you so much for coming on and for speaking openly and honestly. We, everybody

01:03:45.080 here salutes your bravery. And I'm sure there's going to be tens of thousands, if not hopefully

01:03:50.240 hundreds of thousands of people who are going to be listening to your words. And they're going to be

01:03:55.440 protecting kids and they're going to be better informed to this situation. Before we let you go,

01:04:02.600 the last question we ask all our guests is, what's the one thing that we're not talking about as a

01:04:08.320 society that we really should be?

01:04:11.380 It's strange, but I'm going to say homophobia. So I think that part of the trans epidemic is that

01:04:21.440 kids did not feel and do not feel like it's okay to be gay. And a lot of the spaces and a lot of the

01:04:30.920 support that I had as a gay kid has, has disappeared. So there was a gay coffee house, there were gay 1.00

01:04:40.520 bars, there was a gay culture. And it was, I thought we were getting to the point as a society that it was

01:04:49.880 okay to be gay. And now so many of these trans kids tell us directly in the center that it's, 0.62

01:04:56.420 it's not, and that they feel like it, it's almost better to be trans and have a lifetime of medical 0.79

01:05:02.920 problems. And that means we have to go back to square one and really deal with homophobia.

01:05:10.080 Jay Marie, thank you so much for coming on the show. We're going to ask you a few questions from

01:05:14.200 our supporters that only they will get to see the answers to. We're going to make sure to put a link to

01:05:18.620 the article that you published about this. And I really recommend everybody, you know,

01:05:23.780 sorry to use this problematic phrase, but man up and read it because it's, it's pretty,

01:05:28.200 pretty difficult reading, frankly, but needs reading if you want to be informed about this issue.

01:05:33.160 And thank you for coming on. Is, is there anywhere other than the article that people should go to,

01:05:37.720 to follow your work or anything like that?

01:05:39.340 Um, at this point, no.

01:05:42.560 Good. You're the Luddite, uh, as, as you, you started as a Luddite and you're sticking to your principles.

01:05:49.060 I love it. Well, listen, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you guys for watching and listening.

01:05:53.560 Uh, see you on Locals with the bonus questions very, very shortly.

01:05:58.720 Annie says, uh, what does Jamie think we need to do to stop this from continuing?

01:06:03.260 Where is the change going to come from?

TRIGGERnometry - April 16, 2023

Trans Clinic Whistleblower Speaks Out - Jamie Reed

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