TRIGGERnometry - ＂Trans Women Are Men … Including Me＂ - Debbie Hayton

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00:00:30.000 hello and welcome to trigonometry i'm francis foster i'm constantin kissin and this is a show

00:00:40.660 for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people our brilliant guest today

00:00:46.040 is a teacher journalist and self-described opinionated trans woman debbie hayden welcome

00:00:50.920 to trigonometry hi nice to meet you it's great to meet you great to have you here thank you so

00:00:55.500 much for coming on. We'll get into all your problematic opinions in a second. But just tell

00:01:01.220 everybody a little bit about who are you? How are you where you are? What has been the journey that

00:01:06.120 leads you through life to be sitting here talking to us? Right. Well, I'm a teacher. I've been

00:01:10.180 teaching for 25 years. I live in Birmingham. I teach in the West Midlands. I probably wouldn't

00:01:19.300 be sitting here, though, if I hadn't transitioned 10 years ago. And what led you to transition?

00:01:25.500 Uh, mental health, uh, a mental health crisis, really. Uh, I'd had, I'd had issues with my,

00:01:33.540 well, issues with my gender, I've sometimes described it, but don't try and push me on

00:01:37.100 what that actually means. But I knew I had psychological issues with this from when I

00:01:41.680 was about three years old, but managed to, uh, as many other people do, you manage to keep it in

00:01:46.960 check, get on with life, uh, grow up, you know, get married, have kids, you know, get a job.

00:01:52.680 but around 10 years ago I just found it increasingly difficult to carry on as I was

00:01:59.720 as a man working as a man living as a man I felt I should have been a woman I actually felt I

00:02:06.680 actually believed at the time I was some sort of woman so I transitioned and you got into

00:02:12.900 certainly came to people's attention to certainly to our attention when you you wore a t-shirt

00:02:21.260 and help me get this right because this is all a bit minefieldy you wore a t-shirt saying trans

00:02:27.460 women are men really glad you're the one asking this question yeah as am i i'm all right so far

00:02:33.620 you're right i'm right so far and then there was some you know it got in the news and and there

00:02:38.380 was a big thing and then there was a disciplinary action and blah blah blah blah blah now what why

00:02:43.860 would you as a trans woman wear a t-shirt saying trans women are men well it's a political statement

00:02:49.440 I've always wanted to say things what I believe in.

00:02:55.220 As I said, when I transitioned, I thought I was some sort of woman.

00:02:58.700 By two years ago, when I wore that T-shirt,

00:03:02.000 I realised I was no more a woman than you two are.

00:03:05.860 But we're bombarded with this message that trans women are women, get over it.

00:03:11.900 And there's that second part of the statement,

00:03:13.640 which I think is equally important as the first.

00:03:15.660 You know, trans women are women, get over it. 1.00

00:03:17.200 The message is to the rest of society, you've got to get over it, you've got a problem.

00:03:22.420 Whereas my message was trans women are men, which is an equally valid political statement, 0.94

00:03:29.120 but get over it is directed inwards towards us because I think if we get over that fact,

00:03:35.280 we can live much happier lives and much more secure lives and much more confident lives.

00:03:39.400 Do you not think that there's inherent contradiction though?

00:03:41.940 Because if you are a man, what possible reason would we have to describe you as she 0.99

00:03:48.320 and use female pronouns when you're not in the room?

00:03:51.180 Well, it's what you see and how you naturally would describe me.

00:03:55.860 We use pronouns for inanimate objects, like ships can be she.

00:04:00.060 So I would go with pronouns describing sex.

00:04:04.820 But pronouns, when I describe somebody else, the pronouns I use are to help me describe that person

00:04:11.300 uh to uh to somebody else and uh so if you were describing me if that makes a conversation between

00:04:18.840 you easier then use it if you use he then use he the most the important thing about a pronoun is

00:04:24.960 it's text it stands in the way of the noun so that you know exactly which uh noun or which person

00:04:31.040 you're talking about the reason i bring it up debbie and i want to get into this a little bit

00:04:34.500 because i think this is where one of the biggest disagreements there is on this issue and it might

00:04:40.060 feel like we're getting into the weeds to people but it is important you know we had jordan peterson

00:04:43.920 on the show a while ago and we were talking about the fact that identity is a negotiation between

00:04:50.820 the individual and society and so to me it seems like the concern about ensuring that people use

00:04:56.600 the pronouns which match the gender that you now have is about say you know when if i was to say

00:05:03.920 he about a trans woman who wasn't you that would be me deliberately or possibly deliberately but

00:05:10.680 it would be me rejecting their attempt to to have the identity of a trans woman now people would 0.97

00:05:20.440 might people would argue that right so the reason i ask you the question is if you are a man why

00:05:27.600 would i embrace the identity that you now have which is you're a trans woman you know you you've

00:05:33.860 made uh you've taken steps to be to appear female right you've done that yeah to to it and that's a

00:05:44.340 reflection of how you feel inside but it's also a reflection of how you i i'm putting things on you

00:05:49.800 now and you reject them at will but you want society to see you a certain way as well and me

00:05:55.260 using a different pronoun is me saying i don't see you that way and that's why i think a lot of

00:06:00.040 people are uncomfortable. Do you see where I'm getting at it?

00:06:02.460 I see where you're coming from, but it's, you know, it's to me the most important person

00:06:07.360 who thinks of me. It's how I feel about myself. The whole process of transition was to help me

00:06:13.340 feel comfortable with my body. You know, why should I care what you think? This is the issue.

00:06:20.900 You think one thing. That shouldn't bother me. If I'm confident in who I am and secure in who I am,

00:06:27.340 Your thoughts don't concern me.

00:06:31.200 That sounds I'm being negative towards you now.

00:06:35.740 You're entitled to.

00:06:37.020 It just seems that others seem to look to other people to validate them.

00:06:42.580 I want you to think this about me so I feel good about myself,

00:06:46.840 which is just a fool's game because even if you say something,

00:06:51.700 I'm not convinced if you actually believe it. 0.94

00:06:53.580 And we get into that point, well, you know, Constance says this,

00:06:57.160 But does he really mean it? And I want you to be honest, you know, and use whichever pronouns you like.

00:07:06.360 It doesn't bother me. In real life where people know me, there's a mix to use.

00:07:11.920 Some people use female pronouns about me. Others use male pronouns about me.

00:07:16.100 And it really doesn't matter.

00:07:19.580 Really?

00:07:20.260 No, it doesn't matter at all. So my children use male pronouns because I'm their father.

00:07:24.980 uh but we just we just go with it so uh you know the the phone they we still have a landline

00:07:33.400 but and it still still takes calls and it still takes calls which are not uh people trying to

00:07:38.640 sell us stuff or tell us our internet's going to be that's how i know you're from the north

00:07:42.320 yeah but people ring and uh so so we've got uh we've got the kids who have been uh using male

00:07:49.960 pronouns so he this and he that and that's fine and then the phone will go and i'll say and and

00:07:55.700 one of my kids will ring you know i'll go get her for you and uh you know so it's just they're just

00:08:01.280 labels these pronouns so let's say you had a colleague or someone you knew who insisted on

00:08:07.180 calling you by the incorrect pronouns you wouldn't be upset offended angry even if you said to them

00:08:12.720 look i prefer these pronouns no well no no well i wouldn't i wouldn't go out of my way to say you

00:08:19.120 you must use this pronoun. When I transitioned, there were two tests of whether you'd made a

00:08:25.080 successful transition, as it was called. The aim was to address your mental health issues,

00:08:33.000 call them what you will. The aim was to transition and then pass unnoticed in society, 0.94

00:08:39.620 you know, and be taken at first glance as a member of the opposite sex. So when you heard

00:08:45.720 people referring to you by pronouns, when people would say she, you thought, oh, I'm doing something

00:08:51.120 right here. This, this, you know, I'm, you know, something's going, going right here. The other one

00:08:55.920 used to be being directed to the toilets, which is another thorny, become a thorny issue. So if

00:09:00.140 you'd said, you know, do you know where the toilets are? And if you were directed to the

00:09:03.180 women's, you think, oh, you know, and you do, you would, you would, you would, you would ask 0.97

00:09:07.660 something you just didn't know. And that would be the, that would be the way of testing these,

00:09:11.700 It's, you know, testing, you know, the way you're projecting yourself to society.

00:09:16.780 We seem to have turned that completely on its head, where now, rather than me doing something and then having society respond, it's telling society what to do. 0.97

00:09:31.560 You know, you shall use these pronouns or you'll be, you know, whatever, you know, a horrible person because you hate trans people.

00:09:39.180 And you think, well, no, it's the wrong way around. 0.67

00:09:41.860 You know, we should be taking our part in society

00:09:45.360 rather than demanding things of society like this.

00:09:48.340 And Debbie, why do you think it is that, look,

00:09:51.060 this is an issue which affects a tiny portion of society.

00:09:55.460 It's a tiny portion of society.

00:09:57.580 And that doesn't mean they don't deserve support and all the rest of it.

00:10:01.480 But why is it that it has become so politicised

00:10:04.300 and become such a mainstream issue?

00:10:07.300 It's bananas, isn't it?

00:10:08.500 It really is.

00:10:10.200 When I transitioned, the aim was to basically stay out the press

00:10:13.920 and keep your job, which is a bit ridiculous now because I'm, you know.

00:10:19.500 But, you know, it has become, it ceased to become a clinical issue.

00:10:24.580 It used to be a clinical issue.

00:10:26.900 We had a mental health issue and this was a treatment for it.

00:10:30.600 And that was that.

00:10:32.200 Well, it's become a civil rights issue almost,

00:10:35.800 where it's become a big debating issue in society.

00:10:43.360 I do worry that it's being driven by other vested interests.

00:10:49.700 I do worry that this is a way of doing two things,

00:10:53.620 which is compromising women's boundaries and women's rights. 1.00

00:11:00.100 women you know women erect barriers in the way of men for very good reason you know we've you 1.00

00:11:08.140 know there's just you know there are just too many cases of where men have been where men have

00:11:13.780 abused women it just it just keeps happening so women have to put those barriers up and men don't 0.52

00:11:19.240 necessarily like it because they're not necessarily in control of the situation uh and the other one

00:11:25.100 is the safeguarding of children.

00:11:27.740 And, you know, the trans people such as me, I think, I mean, you know,

00:11:34.920 I don't know, I worry that we're being used in a political campaign

00:11:40.240 to, you know, to compromise those barriers that women have put up. 1.00

00:11:44.500 Used by whom?

00:11:46.520 Men, basically. 0.51

00:11:48.760 Well, I'm not doing it.

00:11:50.620 No.

00:11:51.020 Which men do you mean, like, who is it that's doing it?

00:11:53.600 well it's it's it's a good question uh it's been it's been it's it's an affront to uh women's uh 0.84

00:12:03.900 boundaries in that women in traditionally have been able to put up boundaries to men and say 1.00

00:12:08.960 look these spaces are ours this this is this these these are our these are our spaces if we

00:12:15.140 let you in it's on our terms they did they did and have done let transsexual people through those 0.99

00:12:22.020 We've had other rights for women. 1.00

00:12:25.900 All women shortlists in politics. 0.97

00:12:28.560 All places on committees are so.

00:12:30.780 Whereas we're in a position now where a man can self-declare as a trans woman.

00:12:35.480 And, you know, we've had a big debate over self-ID.

00:12:37.980 But in a lot of places in society, you say, you know,

00:12:40.720 a man declares themselves to be a trans woman and a trans woman they are.

00:12:44.260 And suddenly expect a free pass into those spaces.

00:12:48.220 They expect to be put onto an all-women shortlist, you know, into politics. 1.00

00:12:54.940 They expect all those rights.

00:12:58.180 And suddenly women are there thinking, well, what's the point of having a door we can lock on men 1.00

00:13:05.800 if anyone can cut their own key?

00:13:08.460 That's what it feels like to me.

00:13:10.980 It's an affront on that power imbalance, which women have had to defend themselves against a power imbalance. 1.00

00:13:17.000 And this then goes against those defences which they've set up.

00:13:20.560 No, I get that. I just don't understand who's using people, trans people, for that purpose. 1.00

00:13:26.460 You talk about that in a slightly sort of, I mean, not conspiratorial way, but you know what I mean.

00:13:32.080 And I'm just trying to understand because is it really the case that lots of people are pretending to be trans women in order to get on a short list or to get into a bathroom or whatever?

00:13:44.160 Is that common? Does that happen a lot?

00:13:46.100 It's what you say about pretending to be a trans woman.

00:13:48.600 How do we know the difference between somebody who's pretending to be a trans woman 0.99

00:13:51.360 and somebody who's pretending to be a trans woman?

00:13:51.740 What is a trans woman? 0.97

00:13:53.240 You tell me.

00:13:54.780 Well, yeah, this is the question which sometimes gets asked.

00:13:58.160 What is a trans woman? 0.97

00:14:00.100 And, you know, do we have some sort of inner being somewhere in here,

00:14:08.240 something called a gender identity, which makes me a trans woman?

00:14:10.840 I've got a different gender identity to you.

00:14:12.980 Well, there's no evidence for any of that.

00:14:15.100 You know, there's, whenever you, you know, whenever you look at people, there's no evidence that there's anything different in my brain to your brains.

00:14:25.500 This whole concept of gender identity, which have been sold, is, well, it doesn't need to exist.

00:14:33.720 And in my view, if it doesn't need to exist, why has it been invented?

00:14:37.600 And it's been invented to create this concept of this trans person.

00:14:41.360 you are trans because you have this almost like a soul-like concept inside your head.

00:14:46.800 You've got a female soul or something. 1.00

00:14:50.060 That's what we get told.

00:14:53.380 But if you take that away, you then say, you know, what is a trans woman?

00:14:59.320 And one very – you mentioned about being an opinionated trans woman.

00:15:04.340 You know, one thing, you know, one suggestion which I would never be allowed to say on Twitter,

00:15:09.040 carefully if you tweet this is that trans women are men with a certain type of psychological

00:15:15.000 disorder which creates an insatiable need to present in the same way as a woman 1.00

00:15:19.240 but it doesn't mean that we're a woman and why can't we say that

00:15:23.540 uh because it denies people's identity and is it just as simple as that just the fact that but

00:15:32.360 you know if somebody says there's something and surely other people have the right to critique it

00:15:40.540 or deny it even if they think that that is true yeah and and the other thing is when when people

00:15:46.760 say well we we've got a question on the census you know do you have a gender identity which is

00:15:52.000 different to your sex you know to your biological sex as what as a sign at birth uh or whatever

00:15:57.400 whatever language the government have decided to put on there but this has reached the census do

00:16:01.120 you have a gender identity. And to say, well, I don't think this actually exists. It's a big 1.00

00:16:08.300 thing, is that? But who came up with the idea? You know, one question I sometimes ask of people

00:16:13.480 who say this is, who told you that? And why did you believe them? Because it's gone around saying

00:16:19.400 that everybody's got a gender identity. And you say, well, who told you? But it's because everybody

00:16:24.580 seems to think it, that it must be true. But as a scientist, I always like to look for evidence

00:16:31.600 in this. So that's a really interesting thing. So your view, and correct me again as I'm wrong,

00:16:39.060 I'm just trying to understand this as I go, because it's new to me. I've not heard many

00:16:43.760 people say what you've just said, who are themselves have had that. You know, you get

00:16:48.960 trolls on the internet going uh you know trans women are men men they should get back and 0.99

00:16:54.580 whatever in a sort of aggressive angry way but i've never what you're saying is 0.98

00:17:00.340 being trans is a psychological disorder is that yeah i think the problem is is the loading on 0.99

00:17:11.460 the word disorder yeah this thing is bad whatever whereas you know what's what's wrong with having 0.77

00:17:17.600 a disorder. Well, it's an abnormality maybe. Well, this is another word. These words are

00:17:22.080 seen as pejorities. But as a physics teacher, one of my jokes is we can all be normal as

00:17:28.600 long as we stand up straight. So the view we have is that normal is 90 degrees to the

00:17:34.640 surface. And to be disordered just means not ordered. And in its true sense, that means

00:17:42.380 all standing in line. One, two, three, four, five. Well, I prefer to stand off to one side

00:17:46.800 and be myself. So this idea to say that trans women are men with a psychological disorder 0.99

00:17:52.580 is political dynamite. Yes. No shit. But shouldn't it be a claim that we're allowed to argue 0.98

00:18:03.260 in debate? No, 100%. Completely. Do you sometimes think with this debate that in an effort to

00:18:08.980 be compassionate, we're sacrificing truth, reason, and logic. Yes, it's truth. Truth is truth. And

00:18:19.920 we're hiding the truth. We're obfuscating the truth. We're avoiding the truth. We'll put the

00:18:29.280 truth to one side in order to be kind to people. But is it kind, essentially, to be telling lies

00:18:34.080 to people well this is where i come back to to this idea of identity being a so partly a social

00:18:41.840 construct i i do think you're asking a lot of people to to expect that they only care about

00:18:50.120 how they perceive themselves even for people who who don't have that let's call it disorder just

00:18:56.500 for use of like for ease of language even for people who don't have that you know very few

00:19:01.060 people of that independently minded that they simply don't care how anyone perceives them you

00:19:05.720 know we all put on clothes and makeup and when you know jewelry and whatever to make a certain

00:19:11.200 impression on others it's just part of how we evolved right we are social beings so i i have

00:19:17.840 to say i do get the argument that by you know not using the pronouns or denying someone's way of

00:19:24.000 thinking about themselves that has an impact don't you think yeah i think it's i think it comes down

00:19:30.360 to the fact that our identity is it is intermeshed with with our relationship with society yeah

00:19:35.600 exactly and when I was when I was uh coming here today I you know everybody I met was was uh I was

00:19:44.880 referred to as female female pronouns I don't think for a moment my identity was being uh was

00:19:50.460 being denied at all uh but I don't I don't have a badge that says you must use uh female pronouns

00:19:56.300 But the way I interact with society means people tend to use female pronouns

00:20:00.580 because they're more comfortable referring to me by female pronouns.

00:20:05.080 And it's whether it's, it's, yes, we have an, we have, we have personal identity.

00:20:10.580 I know who I am, but we also, we're also social beings living in society.

00:20:15.220 And it's, it interlinks with how you see me.

00:20:19.700 But what, what the problem I think we're having is, it's other people.

00:20:26.020 And be careful who I talk about here, because I don't want to put the finger at individuals, but it's the philosophy that I am going to, you know, I'm going to demand that society treats me in one way by my words, but my actions, how I live my life is a different way.

00:20:44.800 And that's the clash. And I'm going to expect society to cope with that. Whereas I don't do that. I live my life one way. And people tend to take me as I want to be taken.

00:21:00.000 So I guess what you're saying is you've made your best effort to present as a woman and people can take it or leave it essentially, but most people will take it because you've made the effort. Whereas if you came in here with a beard and a whatever and looked just like a man, you have less reason to expect people to treat you as a woman.

00:21:21.920 Yeah. And to use one example, if I'm walking home late at night and it's dark and I'm by myself and I've got my big coat on, then I'll tie my hair back, I'll put my coat on, I'll put my hood up, make sure I'm wearing jeans, and I'll put my shoulders out and I'll get taken from a man. It's much safer.

00:21:44.500 and in that case then I wouldn't expect people to use female you know if you know if it was being 1.00

00:21:51.680 referred to then I wouldn't I wouldn't expect people to use female pronouns in that situation

00:21:56.580 you've got the best of both worlds well yeah I've sometimes said to people that

00:22:00.980 we we may put male privilege to one side but we can we can take it back whenever we want it 0.95

00:22:07.080 and in that that is that is one example of that so I can I you know the the male privilege which

00:22:12.720 i may try to put to one side come straight back and i can walk down the street at night and

00:22:18.100 because people yeah people imagine they see well you know people see a man so uh i don't i don't

00:22:25.420 i don't suffer the same uh issues that a woman would do walking alone at night and that leads

00:22:31.840 us rather nicely into the issue of non-binary that is something that i still struggle to get

00:22:36.040 my head around i'm going to be honest with you i still don't really get it can you explain what

00:22:40.100 non-binary actually is and your opinions on it well aren't we all non-binary are you binary

00:22:46.980 am i binary i'll be honest with you i never expected that people do keep comparing him to

00:22:53.280 sue perkins yeah but it's it's a good what what does binary mean uh i guess it means that somebody

00:23:00.600 identifies uh completely with the uh uh you know with the stereotypes and characteristics

00:23:07.460 which are expected of men or women in society.

00:23:10.520 But when you start unpacking that in yourself,

00:23:12.960 we're all a curious mixture of masculinity and femininity.

00:23:17.640 You know, we're all, you know, qualities which are considered to be masculine,

00:23:21.840 qualities which are considered to be feminine.

00:23:23.740 You know, we're all a mixture of those.

00:23:26.460 So in terms of...

00:23:28.140 But we are a mixture of those, but I am binary.

00:23:30.840 Like, I've never questioned my quote-unquote gender identity.

00:23:34.760 I've never felt like, well, maybe I'm not a man.

00:23:36.920 like it's just never occurred to me right so i'm i'm binary let's say francis questionable

00:23:42.720 but it's it's what it is what this means it means you're talking about your personality

00:23:50.840 it's how you feel comfortable with yourself yeah with your body uh with those things but this this

00:23:55.740 is this is separate from our sex you know we're we're human beings we're mammals and like any

00:24:01.640 other species of mammals, there are two types of every species as male and as female. And if people

00:24:08.080 don't believe me, I usually say, well, go and speak to your biological parents. I bet you've

00:24:11.880 got one of each. Because that is sex. Sex is binary. Then we talk about personality, gender, 0.95

00:24:20.460 how we feel about ourselves, our identity, and that's different. And what's happened and where

00:24:26.100 we've where we've confused ourselves is we put all this together in one so we're talking about

00:24:31.560 we're talking about you know we're talking about men we talk about women and then we talk about

00:24:38.760 this non-binary in the middle as if to say somebody who is not a man and not a woman 0.97

00:24:43.600 but what I would come back there to say is there are people of both sexes who who identify as

00:24:52.300 non-binary. But what interests me is, is the way that, and again, this also what I'm going to say

00:25:00.360 is ponsible political dynamite, is what female non-binary people and male non-binary people, 1.00

00:25:08.620 you know, their experience in life is different. Because as human beings, you see somebody who

00:25:13.340 isn't stereotypically presenting as man or woman, and you think, oh, but as human beings,

00:25:19.360 we look at the people and we think oh yeah this is a male person who is uh who is presenting in a

00:25:25.440 androgynous manner this is a female person who's behaving in an androgynous manner but as human

00:25:31.860 beings we we view we you know we we do take note of the uh of the sexes and we do relate to each

00:25:40.820 each sex differently we all do we've got we've got millions of years of evolution which has which 0.90

00:25:45.580 has led us here you know we are we are we are our bodies in that way uh so when you start talking

00:25:51.720 about non-binary is if you separate the two if you put sex to one side and say you know we're all

00:25:58.220 we're all male or female that's a biological fact so one two three we're all male people

00:26:02.960 uh that i would say is you know is is should be uncontroversial then we look at a personality

00:26:10.240 separately. Call it gender, call it identity, whatever you like. And then we've got, you

00:26:16.880 know, people who were quite happy with all the issues, quite happy with the stereotypes

00:26:22.020 which are put on them, quite happy about going down the street saying, I'm a man, doesn't

00:26:26.240 bother them. And there's others who struggle with that. Some of us transition so that we're

00:26:32.000 there, you know, presenting as the opposite sex. And others sort of, you know, will prefer

00:26:38.220 to be presenting as neither. But when you actually say, when you take that personality

00:26:45.820 spectrum, when you talk about non-binary, the moment you create non-binary people in 0.98

00:26:51.540 this spectrum, well, the two ends are just, is it fair to say that is a binary or are

00:26:58.200 they just two ends of a non-binary spectrum? So I think your question makes more sense

00:27:04.240 if you separate the two and then say you can make a personality what you like that that's fine we

00:27:09.540 can talk about that but when it comes to sex you know that is I'm a science teacher there are two

00:27:15.160 sexes and we can't change it so if we keep non-binary out of that then it all makes more 1.00

00:27:20.880 sense but that again is the political issue people like to identify out of their sex but uh we can

00:27:29.140 no more you know we no more identify out of our height or our age you know i you know he you know

00:27:35.520 it's these these are just facts of our bodies you know my body is male it's 182 tall and it

00:27:41.360 came into existence 52 years ago you know i might not want that to be the case but that those are

00:27:48.240 facts of life have you ever been abroad and felt out of place because you didn't speak the language

00:27:54.340 No, because I voted Brexit. Brexit means Brexit.

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00:28:01.140 it's very awkward, like France is talking to a woman. 1.00

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00:29:03.520 debbie do you think this hyper focus on gender is helpful as to what we're doing now how we seem

00:29:13.420 to be pulling everything apart and there seems to be genders being created you know almost every day 1.00

00:29:19.440 the fact that we talk about non-binary.

00:29:21.740 Is that actually helping us as a society?

00:29:24.180 No, no, it isn't.

00:29:25.100 I think people should just be allowed to be themselves.

00:29:27.740 And we shouldn't need to invent a category to identify into

00:29:32.100 to allow ourselves the people we want to be.

00:29:36.000 So, you know, if somebody wants to, you know,

00:29:39.400 if somebody's personality type is to wear, you know,

00:29:42.920 is to wear their hair in an unusual fashion, colour it blue, whatever,

00:29:47.020 then just do it.

00:29:48.320 You know, don't feel you've got to identify as a certain category in order to be yourself.

00:29:56.100 You know, and you're right, there are so many of these different categories.

00:30:00.100 And you're thinking, why do people need these?

00:30:02.980 You know, when we talk about the LGBT, WXYZ, you know, all these different categories that people create for themselves, create for society.

00:30:14.260 You know, one which I've come across, which I'm struggling to get my head around,

00:30:18.580 but I keep getting myself into trouble, is people who identify as asexual. 1.00

00:30:23.040 Well, you know, and I've said, well, what's the big deal?

00:30:26.520 You just don't, you know, if you don't need a romantic sexual partner,

00:30:31.620 well, it's an issue you don't need to worry about.

00:30:33.760 Just, you know, what's the issue here?

00:30:35.960 Why do you need a label to say, you know, I just don't, you know,

00:30:39.740 I prefer being by myself.

00:30:41.080 I don't need, you know, I'm not sexual.

00:30:44.740 I'm asexual.

00:30:45.960 But I got myself into an awful lot of hot water for denying people's identity.

00:30:52.520 But I don't see, if that's the person they want to be,

00:30:55.220 I don't need to see that why they need to create a category

00:30:59.720 that they then need to restrict them into this completely artificial,

00:31:05.400 in my view, category which they've created.

00:31:07.200 I just think people should be themselves.

00:31:08.320 it's a good point that you said that people should be themselves but isn't it also a way of

00:31:13.780 garnering attention for yourself creating an identity therefore that people notice you therefore

00:31:19.740 that you you can explain yourself succinctly to the world in a way that you couldn't before it's

00:31:26.260 far more difficult to explain who i am if we go into the complexities but if you just say you know

00:31:31.960 cis straight white male boom it's done yeah it's it's a our people are people choosing these

00:31:38.980 identity levels to be special yeah uh because there are different flags for all the you know

00:31:43.040 the uh the the all the different flags there's the lgbt flag there's the uh you know the trans

00:31:48.920 flag which everybody everybody knows that one uh there's the there is an asexual flag there's a

00:31:54.420 bisexual flag we've got them all at the back of it and there's a heterosexual flag there is a

00:31:59.800 heterosexual flag have a guess what color it is i don't know is it like all the primary colors

00:32:05.320 no no no no no black shades of gray is it shades

00:32:09.620 so uh so they pick the dullest color they pick the absolutely dullest color to actually say

00:32:18.020 this is the heterosexual flag and what you're saying to people is why be as boring as this

00:32:24.840 when you can have all these colors and all these separate identities yeah that's interesting and

00:32:29.420 Do you think this politicisation that we're seeing with the LGBTQI+,

00:32:34.980 but particularly focusing on trans people, is this helpful?

00:32:39.020 Is this helping you in any way?

00:32:40.240 No, it doesn't help me at all.

00:32:43.200 I transitioned and got on with life.

00:32:46.300 The one most important piece of legislation for me was the Equality Act,

00:32:50.140 which gave us our own protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

00:32:54.720 And what that means is that I can't be treated less favourably

00:32:58.500 Uh, or, you know, because of, I've gone through gender reassignment, so I can't be sacked from

00:33:04.840 my job. People used to, people used to be dismissed from their jobs and employers would

00:33:08.660 say, oh, we support what you're doing, but you'll be too much trouble. So, you know, here, go. Uh,

00:33:16.220 but, so I can't be denied goods and services in shops. I can't be, uh, you know, uh, so that,

00:33:21.660 that protects me. Now, to be honest, this, this is, this, this is a great country. You know,

00:33:26.080 The vast majority of people are open-minded, liberal, accepting.

00:33:30.540 There are people around, as we all know, who are not.

00:33:35.380 But on the whole, it's a very accepting country and has been.

00:33:38.980 But what the Equality Act did was it gave people the confidence

00:33:43.200 in which to do that, to say, I'm doing the right thing

00:33:45.520 and the law says I can do the right thing.

00:33:47.400 And I transitioned and got on with the job.

00:33:51.040 My aim of going to school each day was to teach children

00:33:54.140 not to be a not to be a trans person there and and that was working then it was around

00:33:59.900 2014 2015 uh big campaigning organizations started jumping on this to use this as a

00:34:09.340 almost like a civil rights movement which in my view was never necessary we were getting along

00:34:14.400 just fine with trans people were you because we keep being told and this is an important part of

00:34:19.340 the conversation that we haven't had yet but you bring it up we keep being told that if uh you know

00:34:25.420 if trans kids if such a thing exists if children with gender dysphoria uh if they're not given

00:34:32.760 the right emotional support if they're not you know given help with their transition if they're

00:34:38.460 not their pronouns aren't used if their parents don't immediately start going well you say you're

00:34:43.360 a girl than your whatever it is if that doesn't happen then uh you know suicides are very high

00:34:49.480 we're told that the reason we need to to be very aware of this and very you know raise awareness

00:34:54.480 is that trans people experience a lot of hate and abuse and violence and and you know and that

00:35:01.700 worries me i don't want to be contributing to people being hurt you know and if that you know

00:35:05.960 and i think the argument goes well you know if i just use the right pronouns and if i just you know

00:35:10.100 don't worry too much about the nuances of it if I just accept why I'm being told well at least I'm

00:35:15.180 not hurting people that's how a lot of people think and frankly probably until we started the

00:35:19.520 show that's how I thought I was like well I'll just do what's asked of me because I don't want

00:35:23.240 to hurt people who are already vulnerable you know is that not all true you've asked a lot of

00:35:29.020 questions I have a lot of questions I want to come back to what you've said about children that is an

00:35:33.440 that that is that's a huge issue but coming back to this how trans people live in society

00:35:41.700 it's not my experience at all that there's a lot of people out to get me I live you know my life

00:35:47.460 is as normal as anybody else's and there aren't people hiding around the corner abusing me it

00:35:52.760 doesn't happen uh this week in parliament uh Jess Phillips read out Karen Ingala Smith's list of

00:35:59.380 the more than 100 women who have been murdered by male people,

00:36:03.620 including partners, this year.

00:36:05.880 When we talk about trans people,

00:36:07.180 the impression is that the world is much more dangerous for trans people,

00:36:11.400 but there wasn't a list to read out from the UK this year or last year.

00:36:17.420 We have an International Transgender Day of Remembrance every year

00:36:20.600 where we're remembering people in largely,

00:36:24.420 in completely different societies to ours,

00:36:27.100 where life is very difficult for anybody who is different,

00:36:33.040 for women, for trans people, for gay and lesbian people.

00:36:37.500 They're very, very different societies to ours.

00:36:39.920 But enough about my country and Russia.

00:36:42.440 The claim that this is somehow a dangerous society for trans people is, 0.97

00:36:49.940 well, I'd say from first-hand experience, it's ludicrous 0.86

00:36:53.140 and it's a political claim that's been made.

00:36:55.860 But then going on to what you were saying about the children,

00:36:58.540 if we don't affirm children's identities,

00:37:01.920 well, you know, we need to ask the question, we go back,

00:37:05.400 you know, why was this not picked up 40 years ago, 30 years ago, whenever,

00:37:10.640 when there wasn't a spate of children committing suicide

00:37:14.140 because their identities were not recognised?

00:37:17.180 It wasn't happening.

00:37:18.300 Now, my own situation was from three years old,

00:37:21.280 I knew I had some psychological issues.

00:37:25.780 I desperately wanted to be a girl.

00:37:27.660 I knew these wishes were so shameful, I couldn't tell anybody.

00:37:33.380 So it was all buried down.

00:37:35.760 But I would have benefited from that being unpacked and helped to say,

00:37:43.900 look, you've got these feelings.

00:37:49.780 They're not your fault you've got these feelings.

00:37:52.100 You can't be a girl because you're a boy,

00:37:54.480 but let's have a look and see how we can help you become comfortable with yourself.

00:38:00.860 What's happening now is that children are being told,

00:38:08.040 well, you're really the other sex.

00:38:10.320 You can be the other sex. 0.97

00:38:12.080 And if that had been said to me in 1971, 1972, 1973,

00:38:19.280 I would have been clamouring to transition and be the other sex. 1.00

00:38:25.100 And where would that have left me?

00:38:26.220 You know, you have prepuagescent children at primary school.

00:38:32.240 Well, you know, before puberty, children can either cut their hair

00:38:36.540 or grow their hair long, what you wear.

00:38:38.940 It's relatively easy to pass as the other sex. 0.98

00:38:41.300 But then puberty comes along, and that's the key to adult life.

00:38:46.720 And before children actually understand what it means to be an adult now,

00:38:52.840 we're saying to them, you know, you can choose whether to go through that puberty

00:38:57.540 and that puberty, and they're of equal value.

00:39:02.380 You know, it doesn't matter.

00:39:03.120 This is values.

00:39:03.980 You can grow up to be an adult man or you can be an adult woman.

00:39:06.820 You choose.

00:39:07.700 And if I'd been given that choice in 1975, you know, 1980,

00:39:12.600 I'd have chosen to be a woman or chosen to be a girl.

00:39:16.140 because that's what I wanted to do.

00:39:17.340 Would you not rather that had happened?

00:39:19.080 No.

00:39:19.740 Why not?

00:39:20.440 Because I wouldn't have had my children.

00:39:22.540 And as human beings, we, you know, there's various things that drive us.

00:39:27.940 We are biological.

00:39:28.900 And, you know, within humanity, if there wasn't that driver

00:39:34.160 to have our own children, our species would sort of die out very quickly, I think.

00:39:39.180 So that's there, and that's very strong in me.

00:39:41.580 And as I became an adult, I really wanted my own kids.

00:39:44.660 and I've had my own kids and if I transitioned as a child that would never have happened

00:39:51.360 and that to me those those things are far more important than that and and then we're saying

00:39:58.320 I really wouldn't have been a woman and never have been a woman I would have been a boy who

00:40:05.000 had transitioned before puberty and then been given synthetic hormones so my body would have

00:40:11.000 developed how it had done maybe you know the difference now in life would have been that

00:40:16.680 rather than being you know my voice would be would be higher well so what and I wouldn't be

00:40:25.380 quite as tall as I am but I like being one meter 82 I can see all the top of the crowd you know so

00:40:30.300 there are advantages I wouldn't I wouldn't you know if you know if transgender therapies could 1.00

00:40:35.000 chop 10 centimetres off your height

00:40:37.140 I wouldn't go there

00:40:39.440 because I like being tall

00:40:40.440 so I just think for me

00:40:43.060 if this had been presented to me

00:40:44.680 I would have taken it and it would have been the wrong thing

00:40:47.080 and this is from somebody who has transitioned

00:40:49.220 whereas other people

00:40:51.620 other friends of mine say

00:40:52.860 that when I was a child

00:40:56.060 I felt like this

00:40:57.400 but I grew out of those feelings

00:41:00.060 and those are more often than not

00:41:02.060 women and the number of women 0.99

00:41:03.920 i've spoken to who as they approached puberty felt really negative about this because they

00:41:09.720 realized what it was going to do with their body they realized that they weren't you know that

00:41:14.100 roots in life were being shut off uh so they were desperate to be the other sex but then 0.97

00:41:19.860 then those that those feelings went away and uh what really concerns me what we're seeing with

00:41:27.800 children is that this generation now that are being that are being told they can be the other

00:41:32.400 sex the vast vast majority of them now are girls you know it's it's around you know two-thirds of 0.72

00:41:38.920 the referrals to gender clinics are now girls and there is no there's there's no big army of middle 0.99

00:41:46.480 aged women coming out saying oh now that society's changed i can transition there's middle-aged women 0.83

00:41:51.680 saying yeah when i was that age i felt like that too but i grew out of it and i really do worry

00:41:57.680 about what we're doing to these children.

00:41:59.980 Just tell them that they can be the opposite sex when they can't, 1.00

00:42:03.500 making those promises to them.

00:42:06.040 And then when puberty comes along saying, you know,

00:42:10.320 there's this medication and surgical treatments

00:42:13.560 which can make you into some sort of facsimile,

00:42:16.780 where they don't say that, they say they can make you the opposite sex.

00:42:19.580 And it's just not true.

00:42:20.560 And the impact on those children in the future, I really do worry about.

00:42:30.880 We talked about women's rights before.

00:42:33.500 This trans has become the hot topic of debate.

00:42:39.040 It will pass on to something else.

00:42:40.840 I'm sure something else will come around.

00:42:42.760 And if women's rights have been compromised, they can be reclaimed. 0.98

00:42:46.380 But if children's bodies have been damaged, they're damaged for life.

00:42:49.780 and they only have one body

00:42:51.500 and that is something as adults

00:42:53.520 we need to take responsibility for that

00:42:56.300 and there are too many people who are saying

00:42:58.140 oh well, you know, if that's what's going on

00:43:02.200 now there's no criticism here

00:43:04.480 but there is a widespread attitude

00:43:06.940 that I don't know about this

00:43:08.720 cleverer people than me come and do this

00:43:12.020 if it's not harming anybody

00:43:13.280 but children's bodies are being harmed

00:43:15.000 and I think as adults

00:43:16.540 we all have a responsibility to look

00:43:19.060 think critically at what's going on look at both sides of the argument and when claim when people

00:43:26.460 make claims ask always ask that question you know where is the evidence that they're citing for this

00:43:31.960 claim because i think all too often we're hearing to you know the evidence which is cited is is that

00:43:39.000 everybody thinks this which is an appeal to popularity or you know people in in authority

00:43:46.340 think this which is an appeal to authority whereas those you know anybody who thinks

00:43:51.280 who thinks about issues knows that those are very poor that's those are poor support to arguments

00:43:55.720 so kids worry me yeah and do you not think that it shows that there's something quite wrong with

00:44:02.600 society where we're effectively well we're transitioning these kids and that's seen as

00:44:08.240 the right thing to do when we all know that children are simply not capable psychologically

00:44:13.740 of making these huge life choices.

00:44:16.500 Yeah, and very, very young children as well.

00:44:19.060 Three-, four-year-old children, parents are taken to...

00:44:21.920 The gender clinics are getting referrals from children

00:44:24.420 who are aged three, four, five.

00:44:27.760 It's, you know, and then you've got to ask the question,

00:44:30.440 why are parents doing this?

00:44:31.840 What are parents seeing in their children to actually do this?

00:44:37.060 Are they seeing gender non-conforming behaviour?

00:44:40.520 you? This is the question, this is where parents need to be challenged. Why do you think your child

00:44:45.400 is trans? Well, my son, or whatever language they use, prefers to wear dresses. Well, why can't 1.00

00:44:52.900 boys wear dresses? And the question of parents is, do you have a problem with your son wearing

00:45:01.080 dresses? Because my worry is, is that parents have issues about children exhibiting gender

00:45:08.620 non-conforming behaviour and this is a way of helping the parents address their issues better

00:45:15.720 to have a you know if better to have a gender conforming daughter than a gender non-conforming

00:45:21.540 son perhaps now that is uh that's a possibility of what's going on and if that is what's going on

00:45:28.120 then this four-year-old five-year-old child who has been told by all the adults around them that

00:45:32.960 they are really a girl is should be concerning everybody yeah and it's it seems that we don't 0.99

00:45:39.920 we've stopped understanding what it means to be a child a teenager which is a continual process

00:45:46.640 of questioning your identity you know we all had when we were going through puberty the reason it's

00:45:52.500 so painful is because you you don't know anything everything has changed you don't know who you are

00:45:57.620 you don't know what you're going to be you don't know what your sexuality is all these things they're

00:46:02.900 all up in the air so to then come along and say to these kids well you know you're trans just seems

00:46:08.660 to it's it just seems to me abuse if i'm being honest i would agree with you yeah it is and

00:46:15.400 rather than saying to children uh you know you've got lots of questions what we're saying is here

00:46:20.540 is the answer you're trans and all the issues which children do struggle with and as you grow

00:46:26.920 But, you know, the transition, you know, we talk about transition

00:46:31.780 and it's become a loaded turn.

00:46:33.900 A transition is something a trans person does.

00:46:37.020 But we all transition as we move through life.

00:46:39.200 We're different people now as to where we were 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

00:46:42.920 And this is all the transition through life.

00:46:44.760 And there's lots of questions that we have, lots of issues that we grapple with.

00:46:50.420 And we're desperate for answers to those issues.

00:46:53.840 Now, if the answers were simple, we wouldn't be, you know, life is complicated, human beings are complicated.

00:47:02.500 You know, one of the things, I teach physics, and I sometimes say, physics is easy.

00:47:07.340 Well, it's human beings are difficult, because human beings are complex.

00:47:10.280 So we've got all these issues which we're grappling with.

00:47:13.480 And then to come to children, yeah, we know you've got anxiety issues.

00:47:18.840 to issues. We know you've got issues with, you know, working out your sexuality and what that 0.98

00:47:25.280 means to you. We know you've got issues with gender. But as people growing up, it's things

00:47:31.000 that we have to work through those to ourselves so we understand ourselves and we become comfortable

00:47:36.700 with ourselves. But what we're telling children is, ah, this is because you're trans. And here

00:47:42.020 is a pre-packed solution to your problems. You know, in a pink and blue box, this is who you are.

00:47:48.840 And suddenly you've got a ready-made answer.

00:47:51.620 It's a pre-pack answers, a ready-made community to move into.

00:47:57.960 Because the other thing about growing up, it's friendship groups

00:48:00.460 and being excluded from friendship groups and, you know, bullying.

00:48:04.440 And, you know, as adults were forever, you know, were forever having to help children through those issues.

00:48:14.820 So a child who doesn't quite fit in because all children don't quite fit in, 0.86

00:48:20.020 none of us quite fit in anywhere because we're different to everybody else,

00:48:24.180 to say, look, here is a prepack solution, including ready-made community,

00:48:28.180 ready-made role models, ready-made this, ready-made that, ready-made the other.

00:48:32.480 It's denying them the opportunity to find themselves, Francis,

00:48:35.540 and that is abuse.

00:48:37.000 It is, and the last question I want to ask on this, Debbie,

00:48:40.840 is to me this isn't just a problem we see with children or with the trans issue it's right the 0.80

00:48:47.620 way through society where what we desperately want is very simple easy solutions to deeply

00:48:54.580 complex problems would you agree with that well yes that's that's the uh we we we've talked about

00:49:01.200 binaries before we do like we do like to uh you know we do like to uh reduce everything to a binary

00:49:07.400 you know brexit or remain yeah you know lockdown or uh you know or whatever or letting it rip yeah

00:49:14.380 you know the idea of nuance to think there are there are issues here we've got to grapple with

00:49:19.520 and let's hear all let's hear all the arguments and come up with solutions which give the majority

00:49:26.140 of people the majority of what they want which is what political debate is all about uh gets lost in

00:49:32.520 this debbie it strikes me that you have an insight into something that we've not talked much about on

00:49:39.940 the show but it's interesting to me because you've lived both as a man and as as a trans woman or

00:49:46.060 transsexual woman uh but you've lived in society where people thought you were a man and then now 0.59

00:49:53.160 where people think you're a woman and i wince a little bit you mentioned male privilege and that's 0.90

00:49:57.560 not because i don't think people are privileged in different ways it's i just wince because that

00:50:01.840 word is so misused now often, the word privilege. So tell us what is different when you live as a

00:50:09.760 man and when you live as a woman? What have you noticed? What has it been like? What insight have

00:50:13.780 you got? Because none of us have that experience. Right. Yeah, it is interesting. In committee

00:50:19.040 meetings, for example, as a man, I'd expect certain bits of body. If I wanted to make a point in a

00:50:24.180 committee meeting, you sit forwards like this, you look around, you make eye contact with the chair

00:50:28.640 and you get brought in.

00:50:32.080 If I'm, and other people naturally will bring you into the debate

00:50:37.040 and the meeting, if I'm in a committee where I've not been clocked,

00:50:41.680 you know, so I don't, you know, if it's a group of people

00:50:46.680 that's come together, and sometimes in my work I do,

00:50:49.520 I will turn upon a committee to do something

00:50:52.840 and I've just been sent along representing another group,

00:50:56.760 for example uh i'll just announce myself as oh i'm debbie hayton i'm a teacher and i'm here

00:51:03.220 representing so and so you know that's uh and i i'm not i've not been clocked then i'll be treated

00:51:08.720 as a woman and you can make the same you can make the same eye contact with the chair you can make 0.94

00:51:13.760 the same body language and you get ignored uh it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't do the same thing

00:51:19.420 does it matter if they're a man or a woman the committee chair no so women will ignore you 1.00

00:51:24.460 because you're a woman women will give way to men yeah that's interesting and they won't give way 1.00

00:51:29.180 they won't give way to other women so you don't get your voice in early enough now now you might 1.00

00:51:33.660 say why does that matter debbie you'll get your voice in eventually because you'll put your hand

00:51:36.540 up and eventually you'll come to come to you but you might be the fourth person to speak in the

00:51:40.620 debate once other people have made their minds up so i noticed that but and here's the interesting

00:51:46.060 thing is if i'm clocked as a trans woman i get treated as a man in that debate now and actually

00:51:53.400 actually it's almost like super male privilege because nobody wants to upset me you never upset

00:51:58.680 the trans do you not well that's what i was going to say i'm not sure that's about maleness i think 0.95

00:52:02.960 that's more i'm just assuming but hear me out is that people are now so worried about offending 0.99

00:52:08.560 anyone who's in any way a minority that they'll they'll fucking let you speak forever yeah they 0.87

00:52:12.480 do and uh you go on the committee and say i'm debbie hit and i'm a i'm i'm a trans i'm a trans 0.83

00:52:18.160 and I've had such a difficult time through life.

00:52:22.620 I've been persecuted and oppressed at every opportunity

00:52:25.180 and I have struggled to get here.

00:52:28.080 Four people abused me on the train this morning.

00:52:30.480 I was, a person at the chief station gave me a funny look

00:52:34.580 and I've got here and I feel so distressed

00:52:37.260 but I know I'm within friends here

00:52:40.380 and oh, you can talk forever.

00:52:42.300 So that's like super privilege.

00:52:44.540 But even, you know, so I've known what it's been like to be a man.

00:52:48.160 and I know what it

00:52:50.040 likes to be treated as a woman

00:52:51.400 and when you come out as trans you just

00:52:53.620 it's, so this, it's

00:52:55.980 when I hear this about trans people being

00:52:58.300 you know, the most

00:53:00.200 oppressed, I'm thinking

00:53:01.100 for crying out loud, you know

00:53:04.040 Do you think maybe

00:53:06.040 that's just people talking about like their

00:53:08.040 childhood, like growing up in the 70s

00:53:10.320 you know, it was a different

00:53:12.180 society, I think if you'd come out

00:53:14.040 in a meeting then and said I'm actually trans

00:53:16.080 and I've been, you know, someone looked at me funny

00:53:18.120 I don't think you would get that reaction.

00:53:20.380 No, they wouldn't have done.

00:53:21.120 But the question you asked was, is there a difference?

00:53:26.720 And I would say male privilege exists in those meetings

00:53:30.020 where political decisions are made.

00:53:32.060 Yes, everybody will have their way.

00:53:34.640 But consistently, male voices will get heard first and before female voices.

00:53:40.900 And it's incremental, just a little bit here, a little bit there,

00:53:44.360 a little bit there, somewhere else.

00:53:45.520 and it means that society tends to get run for the benefit of men rather than the benefit of

00:53:50.720 what about other stuff francis let me just follow up on this you know you talk about uh making

00:53:55.760 yourself look like a man when you're walking home at night or whatever because it's safe actually i

00:53:59.920 mean you're more likely to be a victim of violence if you're a man that those that's a statistic not

00:54:04.360 sexual violence so that that's a thing but um what what else do you notice about being a woman and

00:54:11.260 and how people treat you differently versus when you appeared as a man?

00:54:16.940 There isn't much.

00:54:19.120 Because in situations where we're well known with family,

00:54:24.060 you tend to get treated as who you are.

00:54:26.060 Yeah.

00:54:26.200 And for my close family to suddenly start treating me differently

00:54:29.960 because I've now said I prefer to be called something else,

00:54:34.000 it didn't happen.

00:54:35.900 And at work, I tend to get treated as me.

00:54:38.940 out in the street when people treat you differently, it's hard to say, you know,

00:54:45.680 it's what's the big thing about how I want to be treated differently as a man or a woman.

00:54:53.060 And as I've tried to unpack this within myself, it's not about you and it's not about the rest

00:54:58.860 of society. It's purely largely and squarely about me and how I relate to myself and my body.

00:55:04.660 that's the key to it

00:55:06.440 and society

00:55:08.320 for me is a bit of a bystander

00:55:11.060 and as long as you'll allow

00:55:12.920 me to live my life

00:55:14.980 without persecuting me

00:55:16.680 oppressing me, and you do

00:55:17.780 then I don't have a problem

00:55:20.580 in living

00:55:22.840 here

00:55:23.240 it's a great place as the UK for trans

00:55:26.720 people to live, it really is

00:55:27.780 and it really does

00:55:30.680 upset me when people say

00:55:32.560 it's really dreadful

00:55:34.140 yeah everybody's out to get us because they're not and if we whip ourselves up into some sort

00:55:39.220 of frenzy about that then then we'll not be living we'll be uh just living in fear of

00:55:44.900 nasty things happening to us and uh it's probably not gonna happen and we look at the fact that we

00:55:51.120 have these groups now and it just seems that we're more polarized more divided than ever

00:55:56.480 how do we get some form of healing how do we actually come together and try and bridge the

00:56:03.900 gap between all of us in order that we can actually have a better and more harmonious society?

00:56:09.220 I think we need to take identity out of political debate. We need to be looking at people's rights

00:56:17.080 to do things rather than people's rights to be things. So that whenever we start basing laws

00:56:23.460 and policies around identity, when people being things, then we have big, huge problems. And

00:56:30.420 identity politics is, it just leads to so many issues. And whenever politics gets divided on

00:56:37.560 identity, it becomes, you know, we're with problems that become insurmountable, like, you know, like

00:56:44.280 in the north of Ireland, for example, where politics is divided on identity. It's just a

00:56:49.620 constant issue to try and move, you know, move issues forward. Whereas what we should be doing

00:56:55.880 here we should be we should be moving the debate along people's rights to be people should have a

00:57:01.060 right to uh you know be whoever they like you know we are for good let's say it for goodness

00:57:06.220 sake we are individuals but move the debate for the rights to do things uh so our rights to you

00:57:13.680 know wear a skirt for example now wouldn't it be better if we pushed for pushed for the law

00:57:19.660 not to say because I identify as trans I have a right to dress like this without being abused

00:57:26.680 how about just saying everybody in society has a right to dress like this because they're human

00:57:31.960 beings you know so we take it away from the identity and say you have a right to do this

00:57:35.980 you have a right to do this you have a right to do this and that I think that I think would be

00:57:40.400 a way forwards you're talking about really letting people do what they want as long as

00:57:47.060 are not hurting other people. Well, yeah, it's the law. The law should be permitting certain

00:57:54.020 actions and prohibiting other actions. And it's out of political debate. We know where to put

00:58:00.820 the barriers down. So the law protects our rights to do things and stops us doing other things.

00:58:07.280 and but in this issue it's become it's become mixed with identity so we're then saying well

00:58:17.360 we then start talking about your right to be trans you know or prohibiting you from being

00:58:22.140 trans and this is what people actually say we say you're denying my identity whereas what we

00:58:26.260 should really be doing is saying let's have a look at the issues here let's have a look make

00:58:30.500 these rights universal you know the you know trans rights are human rights yes they are let's have a

00:58:35.780 look, we'll give everybody the right to pick up from either dress code.

00:58:42.620 You know, organisations traditionally have had one dress code for men,

00:58:47.060 one dress code for women. 1.00

00:58:48.800 Why?

00:58:49.540 Let's just let everybody, you know, select from either dress code.

00:58:55.420 Then there's other issues such as it used to, it just sounds bananas,

00:59:00.800 it used to be an issue changing, you know, your title from Mr. to Mrs.

00:59:05.280 Were you allowed to do this?

00:59:06.300 Well, you know, my title was doctor, so I never had that.

00:59:11.400 But, you know, why should that be an issue?

00:59:14.400 So when there's rights like that, we should be saying, you know,

00:59:18.080 let's cement those rights in.

00:59:19.960 Everybody has a right to do that.

00:59:21.360 But then there are rights which do affect other groups,

00:59:24.420 and that's when we're coming down to the debate that's been there

00:59:26.900 about women's boundaries. 1.00

00:59:29.200 And essentially what's been happening here is that male people

00:59:33.640 have been demanding the right to access rights

00:59:38.980 which have been granted to the other sex

00:59:40.560 for reasons known only to ourselves.

00:59:44.820 So when I say, I now identify as a trans woman,

00:59:48.300 therefore I need to come into those women's spaces, 1.00

00:59:52.640 you've got to let me into those spaces,

00:59:54.980 I don't need to say why I identify as a trans woman

00:59:58.000 because that's, then I'm going to justify my existence or whatever.

01:00:03.140 No, somebody answers that. But without giving reasons, then identity politics would say, because I identify as this, therefore I must have those rights, which I think that leads to all sorts of problems.

01:00:16.380 And I think we should be looking at, in each case, the right to do things.

01:00:21.080 So you mentioned toilets before, which has become an incredibly politicised issue because it's there as a case in point.

01:00:27.840 You know, we need to solve that.

01:00:30.000 So on that one.

01:00:31.280 Well, I was going to ask you on that one because there's probably an even better question to ask you there. I was going to wrap up, but I think this is important. You talk about male bodied people and want all of that stuff. I guess the question, if you boil it right down, is if you commit a crime and you are supposed to go to prison, that's where this idea, well, people call me he or she doesn't really matter.

01:00:56.920 So that's when, you know, that stops being the case.

01:00:59.960 You have to make a binary decision, at least at the moment.

01:01:03.380 You either go to a male prison or a female prison.

01:01:05.980 Now, I don't know about the prison system,

01:01:08.780 but I don't imagine the prison system is kind to people like you

01:01:11.820 if you were sent to a male prison, right?

01:01:14.100 But equally, we've had cases where male-bodied people

01:01:17.440 have gone to a female prison and have committed unspeakable acts 0.99

01:01:21.020 that should never have happened.

01:01:22.860 So how do you square that circle?

01:01:24.520 well the prison the prison estate is divided by sex and i'm male i would i would go to a male

01:01:31.100 prison we need though to be looking at the at my rights to be protected from that and this is this

01:01:37.960 this is where my campaigning would come in this is a this is a tough ask this is this is this is

01:01:43.900 where you're going to be wanting you know separate facilities i'm not going to want to share in a

01:01:50.040 with with somebody else uh showering and changing facilities uh i pass reasonably well you know if

01:01:58.200 people you know if people don't notice but in the showers i pass i pass much better in the showers

01:02:03.440 than i do any anywhere else uh so but that that's a tough ask of society that's to say to society

01:02:10.320 look i've done this and i am expecting you as society to pay a bit extra here and put special

01:02:16.920 facilities on here, and separate accommodation, perhaps, all these things. I'm not saying,

01:02:24.680 and I think this is wrong, is saying to society, we should ask women to budge up and make room in 0.93

01:02:29.580 the female estate, because that, in my view, is the, you know. 1.00

01:02:34.400 You're putting people in danger. I mean, it's horrific what's happened.

01:02:36.780 Yeah. So, women, and the profile of female offenders in prison is totally different to 1.00

01:02:43.900 profile of male offenders. If you look at how many are sex, what women end up in prison for

01:02:49.440 is very different to what men, you know, men end up in prison for violent crime. And, you know,

01:02:54.860 women often end up as more often as being the accomplices of crime. And you look at the 0.98

01:03:01.020 profiles of women in prison and a lot of things is you think you're a bigger, you know, you are

01:03:05.120 a victim here and a victim of circumstance. When you look at sex offenders around, you know,

01:03:11.980 around an eighth of male prisoners are sex offenders.

01:03:16.860 And there's close on 100,000 men in the male estates. 0.98

01:03:20.240 That's 12,500 sex offenders.

01:03:23.480 The female estates, much smaller, is about 4,000. 0.94

01:03:25.560 It's not like there's two half-estates.

01:03:27.240 It's like this and like this.

01:03:29.560 And then suddenly you're saying,

01:03:31.380 well, we're then going to put this group of males in with the females. 0.97

01:03:34.760 And then when you look at the profile of the male,

01:03:38.460 of the transgender offenders, 1.00

01:03:41.980 It's not an eighth, it's close on a half of sex offenders. 0.85

01:03:46.000 And there you've got a big problem.

01:03:48.400 And just to gloss it over and say, you know, well, this is just how it will be

01:03:53.100 and saying that hopefully there aren't too many problems in women's prisons 1.00

01:03:57.480 or we'll deal with bad cases, we'll deal with problems in the cold,

01:04:01.880 hope there's not going to be too many.

01:04:02.900 I think it's totally unacceptable.

01:04:03.960 What society has been saying to women is you've got to budge up and make room 1.00

01:04:08.440 And I've got total sympathy with women who say, 1.00

01:04:11.220 enough, you know, we're not doing this.

01:04:12.880 And they're quite right.

01:04:13.980 I agree.

01:04:14.780 I mean, that is an issue where it's like,

01:04:16.600 this is so obviously wrong.

01:04:18.300 So I guess what you're saying is you need to make special arrangements

01:04:21.460 for male-bodied people who present as women to be treated differently.

01:04:26.240 And it costs more.

01:04:28.640 So the government may be happier to take the cheapskate solution,

01:04:32.280 which is just to move us in with women. 1.00

01:04:33.160 Yeah, but you can't have women being raped by these people 0.98

01:04:36.180 because we don't want to pay extra money. 0.93

01:04:39.180 You just, I mean, it's a no-brainer to me, that one.

01:04:42.460 Debbie, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show

01:04:44.200 and you've cleared some of these things up for us.

01:04:46.920 I'm sure we'll have to continue to try and wrap our heads around it as a society.

01:04:52.060 But thank you so much for coming on.

01:04:53.540 And as always, we have one more question for you.

01:04:55.880 Which is, what's the one thing we're not talking about, but we really should be?

01:04:59.380 The power of the tech giants in San Francisco and Seattle

01:05:02.560 to control what we think and control what we're allowed to say.

01:05:06.180 well put we've been talking about it quite a bit uh good point thank you very much and debbie if

01:05:11.860 people want to find you on social media wherever else where's the best place to do that uh twitter

01:05:16.180 is probably the best place if you search my name it'll it comes up we'll make we'll make sure we'll

01:05:21.260 put it in the description uh thank you so much for coming on and thank you for watching we will see

01:05:25.780 you very soon with another episode like this one or a live stream all of them go out at 7 p.m uk

01:05:31.460 time. Take care and see you soon, guys.

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TRIGGERnometry - March 31, 2021

＂Trans Women Are Men … Including Me＂ - Debbie Hayton

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