TRIGGERnometry - Trauma Expert： Why We Celebrate Weakness Instead of Strength

00:00:00.000 We've developed this culture where the victim has almost become sacred.

00:00:06.440 So there's a sort of supply and demand issue with trauma

00:00:08.760 that everybody, in a way, wants to be traumatized.

00:00:12.620 And you guys have talked a lot about activists

00:00:14.320 and people who are kind of, you know, they're hypervigilant a lot of the time.

00:00:17.160 They're looking for something that's hurt them.

00:00:20.100 They're looking in a paranoid kind of way.

00:00:23.120 It's like, oh, you must be a racist, you must be a sexist.

00:00:25.500 It's not the only thing that's going on,

00:00:26.980 but one of the things that's going on is that people have been hurt,

00:00:30.200 they've been abused, and they have come to see the world as a threatening place

00:00:35.720 and they're looking for threat everywhere.

00:00:38.080 So, you know, victim is the opposite of agency.

00:00:40.320 It's the opposite of healing.

00:00:42.140 And I think one of the big problems in our society

00:00:44.420 is that we don't have a way to be good.

00:00:47.420 And we need that.

00:00:48.600 And it's almost a very old-fashioned idea.

00:00:50.980 It's all about ethics and virtue and morality.

00:00:53.140 But we need that as people.

00:00:54.700 We need a way to be good.

00:00:55.880 And in the absence of that, people will adopt whatever they're offered,

00:00:59.620 which may be a good consumer or a good social justice person.

00:01:02.680 It's like, all you have to do to be good is say this thing on social media.

00:01:07.300 All right?

00:01:07.840 So it offers people a cheap and easy way to be good.

00:01:10.980 We pretend that strength is a vice and weakness is a virtue, and it's not.

00:01:14.600 Hello, and welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:27.740 I'm Francis Foster.

00:01:29.020 I'm Constantine Kissin.

00:01:30.160 And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

00:01:35.680 Our brilliant guest today is an embodiment teacher and trauma educator

00:01:39.300 who's worked in conflict zones like Syria, Afghanistan, and more recently Ukraine.

00:01:43.180 Mark Walsh, welcome to Trigonometry.

00:01:44.600 Pleasure to be here.

00:01:45.840 And I didn't mention in the intro, you've had your own experiences with cancellations

00:01:49.540 and, you know, people not liking what you say and stuff.

00:01:51.960 So I'm sure we'll get into all of that.

00:01:53.760 Plenty of that.

00:01:54.280 Before we do, though, tell everybody who are you, how are you, where you are,

00:01:57.260 what has been your journey through life that leads you to be sitting here talking to us?

00:02:00.380 Sure.

00:02:00.760 Well, first of all, I'm very happy right now because you've just given me steak.

00:02:03.340 So that's a first for me on an interview.

00:02:05.440 It's what we do, man.

00:02:06.380 I've been well fed.

00:02:07.420 I've been well fed.

00:02:08.260 Well, it's good.

00:02:08.720 Actually, somebody wrote a hit piece about us, or mostly about me,

00:02:12.000 and one of the main criticisms was when he came in here, we were having steak.

00:02:16.160 So you are now problematic as well, man.

00:02:17.880 I am.

00:02:18.220 My vegan friends in Brighton are going to be upset.

00:02:20.660 They're always upset.

00:02:21.460 They're always upset.

00:02:22.180 So that's what they do best.

00:02:24.100 Grew up in East Anglia.

00:02:25.520 I was just saying to American friends, I call it the Alabama of England.

00:02:28.560 I was from the Fens.

00:02:30.580 Come from a family of teachers and crazy people, basically.

00:02:35.240 And my story in some ways is parallel to that of Western civilization,

00:02:41.740 in that I was really bright cognitively, but was a complete screw up.

00:02:47.060 And by the time I was 17, I was very alcoholic, drug addicted, suicidal, just a mess.

00:02:54.000 My dad was an alcoholic, so I kind of grew up in that kind of trauma soup.

00:02:58.720 And thought, you know what?

00:03:00.000 I go to university, study psychology, figure out what's going on here.

00:03:03.700 But by that point, I kind of thought, you know what?

00:03:06.040 Maybe the answer isn't in a book.

00:03:08.520 And I went to a martial arts school.

00:03:11.340 I was involved in some sort of low-level crime and things.

00:03:14.060 And I thought it would be a good idea to learn martial arts.

00:03:16.860 And I went in there, and I saw into a dojo for the first week at university,

00:03:21.040 and it just spoke to me.

00:03:22.860 And there was discipline and beauty, and just something in me went, you need that.

00:03:28.760 And I just devoted myself to martial arts.

00:03:31.500 Barely went into the library at university.

00:03:33.820 And, you know, I did the psychology degree.

00:03:35.820 But, yeah, for me, I pursued the martial arts.

00:03:38.660 I was a living martial arts student.

00:03:40.200 And then that sort of opened up into dance, yoga, meditation, improv, theater,

00:03:48.220 the whole field that I would now call the embodiment field,

00:03:50.960 which is all the things that work with the body is a bit more than a brain taxi.

00:03:55.000 And realized there was a whole sort of another education out there,

00:03:58.600 which would be very obvious to, say, a Japanese person.

00:04:01.260 You know, they would do martial arts in school and develop a character through that.

00:04:05.040 But it wasn't obvious to me.

00:04:06.560 And eventually started teaching that.

00:04:08.660 I teach a lot of coaches now.

00:04:11.160 Was working in the nonprofit sector for quite a while.

00:04:14.100 So I was working in various areas of conflict.

00:04:18.660 And, yeah, most recently in Ukraine.

00:04:20.480 It's a bit of an emotional day today, actually,

00:04:22.400 because it's today's anniversary of the invasion, as you know.

00:04:25.420 So a lot of messages coming in before this that were quite emotional.

00:04:29.500 So I've got that kind of churned up a little bit today.

00:04:33.000 And we'll talk about that, of course.

00:04:34.740 And when I introduced you as an embodiment teacher, I imagine most people are going, huh?

00:04:39.760 What the hell is that?

00:04:40.500 What the hell is that?

00:04:41.160 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:41.720 My family still do that.

00:04:44.220 Are they still telling you to get a real job?

00:04:46.440 No.

00:04:47.160 I did a job with the House of Lords on trauma about 10 years back.

00:04:51.220 And then my dad went, oh, my God, this must be a real job.

00:04:53.700 But until that point, yeah, they definitely, even for Christmas and stuff,

00:04:58.580 they're like, what is it you do again?

00:05:01.340 So it's a way of looking at a human being.

00:05:04.240 So I train a lot of coaches.

00:05:05.700 I work with business people.

00:05:07.540 Different ways to describe it.

00:05:08.900 But it's a form of intelligence, essentially.

00:05:11.820 So you can be cognitively smart, but you could also be smart with people.

00:05:15.760 You can be emotionally intelligent.

00:05:17.660 You know, you can be charismatic.

00:05:19.160 You can be, I don't know, good under pressure.

00:05:21.480 All those things are part of embodied intelligence.

00:05:24.400 And it's also just a kind of umbrella term for all the kind of mindfulness-based body arts.

00:05:30.520 So not so much exercise, not so much physicality, more the body as who we are.

00:05:36.440 The body as relates to who we are as people.

00:05:38.980 I'm very interested in that from a lens of trauma and culture and leadership

00:05:43.100 and different things within that.

00:05:47.260 That sounds really, really interesting.

00:05:49.640 So trauma, we talk about it a lot,

00:05:54.640 but I don't think that people actually understand what is meant by the term trauma.

00:05:59.400 What is trauma and how can it impact people's lives?

00:06:03.160 Yeah, I mean, it's become a kind of fashionable term, right?

00:06:05.280 Like everybody's traumatized by everybody else in a way,

00:06:07.900 which I find a bit silly, particularly when I look at some of my messages today.

00:06:11.660 So overwhelming events.

00:06:14.460 So overwhelming events create, us get stuck in that fight or flight or freeze response.

00:06:19.780 So most people understand the idea of fight or flight.

00:06:22.180 We all have that, a bit of stress in our lives going on.

00:06:25.540 But if that's chronic, if you're chronically there,

00:06:28.860 that impacts your perception, cognition, critically your relationships.

00:06:34.080 Or in the freeze response, where people are more shut down,

00:06:38.380 you'll see this more in Eastern Europe, close down them.

00:06:42.360 You know, they're not smiling, they're not being so empathic, perhaps.

00:06:45.560 And that makes relationships very difficult.

00:06:48.040 It means that people are very unhealthy physically quite often.

00:06:50.960 It can show up in loads and loads of ways across different domains.

00:06:54.440 But yeah, being stuck in that fight or flight or freeze response is one very simple definition,

00:07:00.740 usually coming from experiences of overwhelm and powerlessness.

00:07:05.500 And yeah, it's a fascinating topic.

00:07:08.120 It's a trendy topic.

00:07:09.160 It's been hijacked by the left.

00:07:10.640 We can talk about that.

00:07:12.280 And, you know, for me, it's just a very practical thing as well with some of the work I do.

00:07:16.380 It's interesting that you mentioned, sorry, Francis,

00:07:18.360 that there's a political dimension to it.

00:07:20.480 I find that a bit odd, actually.

00:07:22.140 It is.

00:07:22.840 It's very strange.

00:07:23.620 So, where to begin with this?

00:07:34.240 I'm just trying to find the way in that's best to sort of think about this.

00:07:37.200 So, most psychologists are on the left, okay?

00:07:40.600 There's kind of, you know, Jordan Peterson maybe,

00:07:42.540 and a couple of others who are more conservative or more centrist even.

00:07:45.980 So, they have a particular way of looking at the world.

00:07:48.420 That way of looking at the world could be that it's society

00:07:53.460 or culture that causes problems, you know?

00:07:56.360 And it's not the individual's fault or responsibility.

00:07:59.720 And there's definite truth to that.

00:08:01.620 So, for example, there's a psychologist called Gabor Mate,

00:08:04.400 who's very well known, I think does great work.

00:08:06.700 And he says, hey, it's not your fault, it's society, it's culture.

00:08:11.360 And that is an important perspective.

00:08:14.020 But I would say it's probably not the only one.

00:08:17.160 The other thing is our culture's become somewhat psychologized

00:08:20.740 in that it's become a weapon.

00:08:23.440 So, if I say you've upset me, that's one level.

00:08:27.200 But if I say you've traumatized me, or, you know, you're an abuser,

00:08:31.180 or something like that, that's a much higher accusation.

00:08:33.840 And we've developed this culture where the victim has almost become sacred.

00:08:40.820 So, there's a sort of supply and demand issue with trauma

00:08:43.320 that everybody, in a way, wants to be traumatized

00:08:46.860 because then it's like, okay, then I get certain accommodation.

00:08:50.500 And I think it is a way of looking at the world.

00:08:52.640 If somebody has trauma, they feel unsafe, right?

00:08:57.280 The world has become a dangerous place.

00:08:59.380 So, what do you do about that?

00:09:01.520 And one response is to try and control the world,

00:09:04.520 try and control people's speech, thinking, et cetera.

00:09:07.680 I think a sort of integrated approach that takes both a left

00:09:12.100 and a right-wing perspective is a healthier perspective

00:09:15.360 for looking at trauma more sort of holistically.

00:09:19.400 The other thing is sometimes it just seems a little bit like

00:09:21.560 first-world problems these days,

00:09:23.240 particularly compared to Ukraine or somewhere like that.

00:09:26.860 Mark, but the issue is as well that we talk about trauma.

00:09:31.300 I was listening to an interview with Dr. Steve Peters,

00:09:33.340 who wrote The Chimp Paradox and a former guest on Trigonometry.

00:09:36.000 And he actually says that there are some traumas

00:09:39.480 that can never be overcome because the hardwiring of the brain,

00:09:44.040 particularly if it happens, I think it's below the age of 9 or 10,

00:09:46.980 it's just hardwired there and there's not a lot you can do about it.

00:09:50.660 You can learn to cope with it.

00:09:52.120 You can learn to find ways to deal with it.

00:09:54.980 But you're never, in a sense, going to be able to overcome it.

00:09:57.560 Do you agree with that?

00:09:59.740 I'd say there's a lot you can do.

00:10:02.200 And this is, you know, for example, if I'm educating people about trauma,

00:10:05.460 one of the things I'll say is, hey, here's how you might spot it.

00:10:08.640 And I've heard soldiers, for example, in Ukraine go,

00:10:10.720 wow, I didn't realise that's why I'm drinking

00:10:12.580 or that's why I'm finding it hard to be with my wife

00:10:14.820 or that's why I'm getting irritated with my kids.

00:10:16.640 So just education is brilliant, first of all, just learning about it.

00:10:21.560 There are definitely things you can do to make it better.

00:10:24.480 I mean, I'm a case study of that.

00:10:25.860 You know, I grew up in a pretty rough household.

00:10:27.320 And I have a good marriage, I have a good job,

00:10:30.560 I'm relatively healthy physically.

00:10:33.360 There are effective treatments out there.

00:10:35.440 There are things that work.

00:10:36.900 You know, so, for example, one of the things I do is I signpost people.

00:10:39.300 I say, hey, you might want to check out this therapy.

00:10:41.640 And they say, I don't like talking about my feelings.

00:10:43.360 I say, no problem, you might want to check out this one.

00:10:45.920 Well, you don't have to talk.

00:10:47.200 So there are a bunch of stuff out there that works.

00:10:50.360 And one of the main messages I have when I meet people with trauma

00:10:53.680 is, like, there is hope.

00:10:54.960 You know, I've definitely seen that.

00:10:57.260 You know, my mentor works with abused children, for example.

00:10:59.640 Some of the worst cases you can imagine.

00:11:01.960 I've worked in multiple war zones, and there is hope.

00:11:05.540 And there's a lot we can do.

00:11:08.960 There's cultural stuff around that.

00:11:10.360 Like, some whole cultures are traumatised.

00:11:11.900 Like, I've worked, like, in Israel, in Russia, in Ukraine,

00:11:14.500 and there are whole cultures where trauma has become almost normal.

00:11:18.380 And that's pretty interesting to me, too.

00:11:20.520 So what are the symptoms of someone who's traumatised?

00:11:23.440 How does it manifest physically?

00:11:25.400 How does it manifest emotionally?

00:11:27.180 Okay, so two main sets of symptoms.

00:11:28.620 We've got hyperarousal symptoms and numbing symptoms.

00:11:31.640 So you can think of it as too much or too little,

00:11:34.100 the nervous system being shut down or wired or some combination thereof.

00:11:38.880 Hyperarousal symptoms, sleeplessness.

00:11:41.220 So, for example, one of the reasons I used to drink is because I couldn't sleep.

00:11:44.160 Now I can sleep fine without any kind of sedative, right?

00:11:47.120 But I was hyperarousal, that's anxiety, sleeplessness.

00:11:51.260 I'd wake up absolutely buzzing.

00:11:53.680 You'll see this in Israel.

00:11:54.680 People are just wired.

00:11:56.180 You know, on a holiday there, my wife's like, she's Ukrainian,

00:11:59.080 so she can go on holiday there fairly easily without a visa.

00:12:01.700 And she went, it's a beautiful place, Tel Aviv, and the food's nice,

00:12:04.600 and your friends are lovely.

00:12:06.240 We've got lots of good friends there.

00:12:07.380 But she said, it's not very relaxing.

00:12:09.700 You know what I'm talking about?

00:12:10.760 It's wired, you know?

00:12:12.140 So, and I can feel that.

00:12:14.400 I can walk in a room and go, okay, there's trauma here.

00:12:16.900 These people have got that nervous system state

00:12:19.440 where they're in that fight or flight.

00:12:21.480 And that can manifest in loads of ways,

00:12:23.640 like how people think, you know, their politics,

00:12:25.720 they want, they're scared,

00:12:27.400 so they want a politician to be more authoritarian, right?

00:12:31.300 Or they're paranoid, like there's, you know, there's scarcity.

00:12:34.980 There's a sense of not enough, and you've got to fight for yours.

00:12:38.200 There's a certain way of looking at the world,

00:12:40.420 and it also may affect, like, the digestion.

00:12:42.940 It may affect the immune system.

00:12:46.260 It may affect sexual systems.

00:12:47.880 So, like, there's loads of ways that being wired could manifest.

00:12:52.920 And then the other side of things is the shutdown.

00:12:55.480 So that's, you know, the Russian smile, you know?

00:12:58.940 That's the emotional numbing

00:13:01.340 where sometimes numb people hurt people

00:13:03.600 because they don't have that normal emotional response

00:13:06.540 to another's suffering.

00:13:08.440 That's where it's dangerous.

00:13:09.320 They might just feel cut off from life.

00:13:12.840 You know, I remember just coming back from some places

00:13:14.820 and just being very blank.

00:13:16.480 It's like a thousand-yard stare

00:13:17.800 or the sort of lack of emotion rather than hyper emotion.

00:13:22.760 And then people self-medicate in different ways, right?

00:13:25.140 So let's say someone is hyper.

00:13:27.580 They might use alcohol or, you know, opiates to come down.

00:13:30.660 If someone's not feeling, they might be, I don't know,

00:13:33.580 have a crazy sex life or do bungee jumping

00:13:36.560 or something just to feel alive.

00:13:38.060 There's ways people try and medicate those issues.

00:13:41.460 I'd say a key thing that comes out of it

00:13:43.180 is the damage it does to relationship.

00:13:45.540 It is hard to be in a trusting, intimate relationship with trauma.

00:13:51.080 That's why so many, like, British servicemen, for example,

00:13:54.700 get divorced.

00:13:56.080 That's why so many firemen and policemen have problems.

00:13:58.300 Nurses have problems in their marriages or with their kids.

00:14:01.340 So, yeah, how it affects intimacy.

00:14:03.720 The fight-or-flight system is kind of antagonistic

00:14:05.740 to our kind of connect, sort of more mammalian connection system.

00:14:10.600 So there's neurological reasons for this

00:14:12.800 that others are better educated than me in.

00:14:15.700 It's really, really interesting in the way that you've broken it down

00:14:19.740 and the way you've displayed.

00:14:20.980 Because I used to work in a school, everybody drink.

00:14:23.740 But one of the signs that we knew if a child had suffered sexual abuse

00:14:27.740 is because they were hypersexual at an age before puberty, for example.

00:14:33.620 Or if they were going through puberty, they were hypersexual.

00:14:37.380 And before, people would look at a child behaving like that

00:14:40.460 and shame them for it.

00:14:42.120 But now, because we have better knowledge,

00:14:44.080 we look at that child and go,

00:14:45.540 OK, there's something going on here.

00:14:47.080 This needs investigating.

00:14:48.620 Yeah, I saw that in the slums of Brazil when I worked there.

00:14:50.980 And it was pretty disturbing to see, but it's a warning sign.

00:14:53.900 Or even little things like...

00:14:55.340 I used to work a lot with kids in England.

00:14:56.540 And if you tap a kid on the shoulder,

00:14:58.380 a normal kid will go, oh, yeah.

00:15:01.440 They won't do nothing.

00:15:02.460 They won't just sit there, like, learn helplessness.

00:15:04.640 And they won't go, you know,

00:15:05.780 they won't get paranoid or attack you or anything like that.

00:15:07.520 They'll just go, oh, someone's tapped me on the shoulder.

00:15:10.620 And you see that right through to adults

00:15:12.940 and how they respond to things.

00:15:14.400 You know, do they respond with apathy and not doing anything?

00:15:18.080 Or like a hypervigilance?

00:15:20.900 So, you know, you guys talked a lot.

00:15:23.720 Love your podcast, by the way.

00:15:24.760 I'm a fan.

00:15:25.340 And you guys have talked a lot about activists

00:15:27.560 and people who are kind of, you know,

00:15:29.020 they're hypervigilant a lot of the time.

00:15:30.420 They're looking for something that's hurt them.

00:15:33.360 They're looking in a paranoid kind of way to go,

00:15:36.620 oh, you must be a racist.

00:15:37.640 You must be a sexist.

00:15:38.740 It's not the only thing that's going on.

00:15:40.260 But one of the things that's going on

00:15:41.940 is that people have been hurt.

00:15:43.720 They've been abused.

00:15:44.620 And they have come to see the world as a threatening place.

00:15:49.260 And they're looking for threat everywhere.

00:15:50.740 I think also, and you tell me what you think about this,

00:15:55.240 but my impression is as well is there is a certain validation.

00:15:59.100 But if you are not in a healthy place yourself

00:16:01.800 and you don't want to deal with that

00:16:04.300 and you don't want to admit that

00:16:05.420 and you don't want to consciously be aware of that,

00:16:07.620 it's very comforting to say,

00:16:10.340 well, the world is messed up.

00:16:11.780 All right, I'm fine.

00:16:12.880 I'm fine.

00:16:13.520 The world's messed up.

00:16:14.460 And that's why I'm going to go out there

00:16:15.740 and, you know, do these things to fix the world.

00:16:17.920 Then I'll feel fine.

00:16:19.480 Whereas I don't think that's really how it works.

00:16:22.000 No, I mean, if I feel unsafe,

00:16:23.680 if I feel unwell in my body,

00:16:25.580 the place to go is to myself.

00:16:27.620 Now, there may be a societal context to that.

00:16:29.980 And Gabor's absolutely right

00:16:31.320 that there's, you know, certain conditions.

00:16:33.200 I think poverty is one of the biggest ones

00:16:34.760 that people just don't talk about.

00:16:37.000 It's a big problem.

00:16:37.920 People don't talk about poverty in the UK, I think.

00:16:40.120 But the idea that you can't fix yourself

00:16:43.200 through trying to fix the world,

00:16:44.400 you're in the wrong location.

00:16:45.720 But in a way, it's appealing

00:16:47.100 because turning in on yourself,

00:16:49.780 really looking at your issues,

00:16:50.740 addressing things, that's difficult.

00:16:52.440 That takes real courage.

00:16:53.920 So it's much easier to go out there in the world.

00:16:55.880 And if there's a societal system

00:16:57.680 that says that makes you a good person.

00:17:01.300 And I think one of the big problems in our society

00:17:03.600 is that we don't have a way to be good.

00:17:06.920 Like if you were in feudal Japan

00:17:09.140 or ancient Greece or even modern China,

00:17:11.440 there's a clear way to establish virtue.

00:17:14.820 And we need that.

00:17:16.060 And it's almost a very old fashioned idea

00:17:18.340 to talk about ethics and virtue and morality.

00:17:20.740 But we need that as people.

00:17:22.160 We need a way to be good.

00:17:23.640 And in the absence of that,

00:17:25.000 people will adopt whatever they're offered,

00:17:27.080 which may be a good consumer

00:17:28.380 or a good social justice person.

00:17:30.120 It's like, all you have to do to be good

00:17:32.120 is say this thing on social media.

00:17:34.780 All right?

00:17:35.280 So it offers people a cheap and easy way to be good.

00:17:38.320 And potentially they feel that there's going to be

00:17:40.600 some sort of healing in that,

00:17:42.360 which there could be.

00:17:44.220 There could be.

00:17:44.680 There is a point in post-traumatic growth

00:17:46.720 where people help others

00:17:47.740 and that's part of their own healing.

00:17:50.740 But yeah, I've definitely seen a lot of trauma

00:17:52.880 in the kind of activism world.

00:17:54.960 And I think it would be a lot kinder

00:17:57.260 if that trauma was healed.

00:17:59.640 But there's also the glamorization of trauma

00:18:04.560 and the glamorization of victimhood.

00:18:06.440 So we come from the comedy industry.

00:18:08.100 Yeah.

00:18:08.180 And you just see people go,

00:18:10.580 you know, they talk about their depression

00:18:12.060 and it becomes a badge,

00:18:14.060 an identity of I'm depressed.

00:18:16.540 And you think to yourself,

00:18:18.100 well, this may be true.

00:18:19.320 And as somebody who has seen people

00:18:21.340 in their family suffer

00:18:22.100 from a real severe crippling depression,

00:18:25.580 you go, well, that might be true,

00:18:28.440 but how is it helping you what you were doing?

00:18:32.280 And if you identify as depressed,

00:18:36.020 are you going to want to get better?

00:18:38.180 Right, because that's now who you are, right?

00:18:40.520 So if someone's,

00:18:41.360 I've had people introduce themselves at workshops

00:18:43.780 by talking about their trauma.

00:18:46.440 And I'm like, well,

00:18:47.380 unless that's the point of what we're doing,

00:18:49.060 that's strange to me.

00:18:50.900 It's kind of like,

00:18:52.220 trauma's kind of like having a cop, you know?

00:18:54.080 Half of us have got one,

00:18:55.400 but don't introduce yourself at parties

00:18:57.200 by getting it out.

00:18:59.840 You know, for me, it's a little,

00:19:01.820 it's a bit much.

00:19:02.460 And if people are stuck,

00:19:03.860 there's a time when you need to say,

00:19:06.260 I was abused,

00:19:07.140 or my people were abused, right?

00:19:09.320 You're Ukrainian, you're not Jewish,

00:19:10.420 or whatever it is, right?

00:19:11.680 There's a time when that's helpful

00:19:13.000 rather than saying it was nothing.

00:19:15.840 I remember the first time I went to a therapist

00:19:17.240 20 odd years ago or whatever,

00:19:18.500 and I was saying,

00:19:18.860 yeah, I had an alcoholic dad

00:19:19.780 and my cousin killed himself.

00:19:21.000 But it's nothing.

00:19:21.880 It's not a big deal, right?

00:19:22.940 And he was like,

00:19:23.560 uh,

00:19:24.180 you know,

00:19:26.100 maybe.

00:19:26.880 So there is a time when it's helpful

00:19:29.120 to adopt a trauma identity

00:19:30.420 sort of as a passing thing.

00:19:31.960 But I think getting stuck there,

00:19:33.580 and if there's a culture in society

00:19:35.020 that gives you kudos for being a victim,

00:19:37.680 actually that doesn't help healing.

00:19:39.700 What helps healing is empowerment.

00:19:41.660 You get over trauma by being empowered,

00:19:44.440 right?

00:19:44.560 This is why soldiers don't get traumatized

00:19:46.320 when they're fighting.

00:19:47.700 Soldiers get traumatized

00:19:48.600 when they're being shelled,

00:19:50.460 right?

00:19:50.680 Like in World War I

00:19:51.480 or on the Eastern Front now in Ukraine.

00:19:53.080 Why?

00:19:53.380 Because they're not empowered.

00:19:55.340 When they're fighting,

00:19:56.760 they have a sense of power.

00:19:57.740 They have a sense of agency.

00:19:59.400 So, you know,

00:20:00.060 victim is the opposite of agency.

00:20:01.640 It's the opposite of healing.

00:20:02.980 The other thing that's critical

00:20:04.300 and relevant to you guys is,

00:20:06.120 to me,

00:20:06.420 the opposite of trauma

00:20:07.200 is actually play.

00:20:08.940 So having a sense of humor,

00:20:11.140 like my mentors

00:20:12.540 is a wily old Jewish guy

00:20:14.440 and he's always making all these jokes.

00:20:15.980 And some of them are just like,

00:20:17.180 they're pretty on the edge.

00:20:18.920 And the jokes he makes

00:20:20.180 with his patients,

00:20:21.180 they're coming from a good place.

00:20:22.500 And they're very healing.

00:20:24.220 It's very much part of Jewish culture

00:20:25.660 and my experience of Jewish mentors.

00:20:28.260 It is, yeah.

00:20:29.180 What's interesting,

00:20:29.860 I don't think that's true of all Jews,

00:20:31.520 actually.

00:20:32.040 I mean,

00:20:32.360 nothing's true of all Jews,

00:20:33.400 but I...

00:20:34.440 Not according to the labor part.

00:20:38.200 But I remember

00:20:41.020 I did a show

00:20:42.740 at the Jewish center in London.

00:20:45.040 Yeah.

00:20:45.560 And they really didn't like my show,

00:20:47.060 actually.

00:20:47.480 Okay.

00:20:47.920 Which is fine.

00:20:48.600 People are allowed not to like my comedy.

00:20:50.440 But,

00:20:50.940 well,

00:20:51.400 they shouldn't be,

00:20:51.920 but they are.

00:20:53.080 But what happened was,

00:20:54.260 afterwards,

00:20:54.720 there was like a Q&A

00:20:55.660 and somebody said,

00:20:57.060 like,

00:20:57.160 why is your humor so dark?

00:21:00.560 Wow.

00:21:01.220 And I was like,

00:21:02.280 well,

00:21:02.640 where I'm from

00:21:03.480 in the former Soviet Union,

00:21:05.540 like,

00:21:05.960 and I told this joke

00:21:07.100 about how

00:21:07.960 after a pogrom,

00:21:09.380 after Jews have been massacred

00:21:11.440 in a town somewhere in Russia,

00:21:13.440 the Jews sort of come back

00:21:15.020 and they find the rabbi

00:21:16.120 who's been crucified

00:21:18.160 on the wall of the synagogue.

00:21:20.020 And they walk up to him

00:21:20.940 and they go,

00:21:22.160 Rabbi,

00:21:22.460 does it hurt?

00:21:23.320 And he goes,

00:21:23.700 well,

00:21:23.800 only when I laugh.

00:21:25.600 And I said that

00:21:27.060 and they had the same reaction

00:21:28.080 as Francis.

00:21:28.720 Am I allowed to laugh at that?

00:21:30.400 But I've always thought

00:21:31.500 that is the way

00:21:32.520 the Jewish people

00:21:33.820 in those parts of the world

00:21:35.200 where they experienced

00:21:36.220 awful trauma,

00:21:38.160 learned to process it.

00:21:39.220 And a lot of the Jewish jokes

00:21:40.540 that I grew up with

00:21:41.540 in Russia,

00:21:43.100 in Uzbekistan,

00:21:44.040 in Ukraine,

00:21:44.700 they were based

00:21:45.780 very much on that sort of like,

00:21:48.240 we've had a horrible history

00:21:49.680 and we're still laughing.

00:21:52.020 Yeah,

00:21:52.260 I mean,

00:21:52.460 it might be more of a British thing

00:21:53.980 and the British

00:21:54.780 kind of Jewish community.

00:21:55.900 I mean,

00:21:56.320 the Brits ruined Jews.

00:21:58.340 I've worked a lot

00:21:59.200 with psychologists in Israel

00:22:00.340 and a lot of them

00:22:01.100 have got pretty wicked

00:22:01.940 senses of humor.

00:22:02.880 That's my experience.

00:22:03.860 That makes sense to me.

00:22:04.720 And people can laugh at things.

00:22:06.200 So it's,

00:22:07.280 yeah,

00:22:07.560 I think it's one of the,

00:22:10.520 I think it's something

00:22:11.060 that actually Britain

00:22:11.800 adds quite well

00:22:12.860 into the psychology world

00:22:14.020 because Americans

00:22:15.480 aren't very funny.

00:22:16.780 Okay?

00:22:16.940 And they run psychology.

00:22:18.360 There are stand-ups,

00:22:19.400 of course,

00:22:19.680 who are amazing.

00:22:20.700 But as a culture,

00:22:21.800 humor is not valued

00:22:22.820 in the same way

00:22:23.520 as it is in my family Irish.

00:22:25.420 So I'd say

00:22:25.780 Anglo-Irish culture.

00:22:27.500 Banter and humor

00:22:28.220 is just everywhere.

00:22:29.760 Australia,

00:22:30.400 South Africa,

00:22:31.060 the whole kind of British

00:22:31.940 kind of area

00:22:32.620 plus Ireland.

00:22:34.000 And I think that's remarkable.

00:22:35.920 Humor can be remarkably healing.

00:22:38.480 It allows us

00:22:39.380 to take space

00:22:40.160 from something.

00:22:41.180 It's also empowering

00:22:42.080 because if you can laugh

00:22:42.860 at something,

00:22:43.320 it hasn't got you anymore.

00:22:44.940 Right?

00:22:45.280 Like working in Ukraine

00:22:46.600 last year,

00:22:47.340 like with a lot of jokes.

00:22:48.720 And as long as people

00:22:49.620 understand you're laughing,

00:22:50.520 you're not laughing at them.

00:22:51.740 It's not,

00:22:52.220 it's not,

00:22:52.980 I talk about towards

00:22:54.260 connection humor

00:22:55.280 rather than away

00:22:56.220 connection humor.

00:22:57.120 And you can feel

00:22:57.800 if someone's making a joke

00:22:58.840 because they're just

00:22:59.400 uncomfortable

00:23:00.300 and they don't want to connect.

00:23:01.760 They don't want to go

00:23:02.280 connect themselves

00:23:02.940 or others.

00:23:04.120 But I think it's remarkably

00:23:05.320 underused by psychologists

00:23:07.000 as a healing strategy.

00:23:09.180 And I said,

00:23:09.580 I was lucky my mentor

00:23:10.540 happened to be,

00:23:11.360 have a sick,

00:23:12.340 sick fucking sense of humor.

00:23:14.840 The other thing,

00:23:15.740 before we move on

00:23:16.580 to your experience

00:23:17.200 of working in war zones

00:23:18.380 and all that light stuff,

00:23:21.140 talking about,

00:23:22.540 I mean,

00:23:22.800 one of the things,

00:23:23.360 as you know,

00:23:23.720 we talk about a lot

00:23:24.660 is the impact

00:23:26.040 of social media

00:23:26.860 on the world

00:23:27.620 and the culture war

00:23:29.460 and the anger

00:23:30.300 that seems to exist

00:23:31.760 and everyone's

00:23:32.340 constantly bickering

00:23:33.220 and fighting

00:23:33.840 and we've,

00:23:35.080 you know,

00:23:35.400 we've had our fair share

00:23:36.420 of it ourselves

00:23:37.040 and been involved

00:23:38.360 in it too.

00:23:39.700 Like,

00:23:40.420 how do you see

00:23:42.220 the impact

00:23:43.260 of social media

00:23:44.180 and the internet

00:23:45.020 on the work

00:23:46.040 that you do?

00:23:47.400 I'll broaden

00:23:47.840 that question out

00:23:48.980 if you don't mind.

00:23:50.300 We're in a disembodied world.

00:23:52.180 So what I mean by that

00:23:53.480 is we're,

00:23:54.420 we are regulated

00:23:55.560 by self-regulation,

00:23:57.760 co-regulation,

00:23:58.480 we could say

00:23:59.720 eco-regulation,

00:24:00.960 like we're in

00:24:01.420 a beautiful countryside here,

00:24:03.100 you know,

00:24:03.240 as soon as I got out

00:24:03.740 of the car,

00:24:04.120 I was like,

00:24:04.420 oh,

00:24:04.560 that's nice.

00:24:05.220 You relax,

00:24:06.080 you know,

00:24:06.260 as soon as I had dinner

00:24:07.060 with you,

00:24:07.480 lunch with you guys,

00:24:08.600 we chat,

00:24:09.200 we eat together,

00:24:10.500 move together,

00:24:11.280 laugh together,

00:24:12.020 you co-regulate.

00:24:13.060 Self-regulation,

00:24:13.780 I meditated this morning,

00:24:14.720 right?

00:24:14.980 It's actually the least

00:24:15.600 important,

00:24:16.040 I'd say,

00:24:16.320 those three.

00:24:16.980 And theoregulation,

00:24:19.100 a term one of my

00:24:20.040 Greek colleagues made up,

00:24:21.240 meaning like

00:24:21.680 regulated by meaning

00:24:22.920 and Western civilization

00:24:25.020 has lost a lot

00:24:26.200 of its sense of meaning

00:24:27.280 in the sacred.

00:24:28.560 We've lost connection

00:24:29.580 to nature,

00:24:30.280 particularly in the big cities.

00:24:31.380 I find,

00:24:31.900 I'm in London

00:24:32.420 on the weekend,

00:24:33.120 it's super stressful

00:24:33.900 compared to where I live

00:24:35.220 in the countryside.

00:24:36.720 We've lost a lot

00:24:37.520 of co-regulation,

00:24:38.920 I mean,

00:24:39.500 particularly,

00:24:40.440 you know,

00:24:40.740 during the Chinese plague,

00:24:42.320 that was,

00:24:43.180 I'm going to call it that.

00:24:45.860 During the Chinese plague,

00:24:46.900 it was really,

00:24:48.060 co-regulation was almost

00:24:49.280 under attack,

00:24:50.280 and you could be more

00:24:51.120 or less conspiratorial

00:24:52.100 about that,

00:24:52.580 but no faith,

00:24:54.220 this is what says,

00:24:55.580 I'm okay,

00:24:56.120 you're okay,

00:24:57.200 right?

00:24:57.400 We don't like having,

00:24:58.660 babies hate it

00:24:59.480 if you cover your face,

00:25:00.300 right?

00:25:01.000 Or you play a game

00:25:01.860 by covering your face

00:25:02.520 and then smiling

00:25:03.120 because they go get scared

00:25:04.140 and they go,

00:25:04.520 oh,

00:25:04.600 it's fine,

00:25:05.080 you know?

00:25:05.760 So this was covered.

00:25:07.080 We weren't allowed to touch.

00:25:08.280 We weren't allowed

00:25:08.820 to be around each other.

00:25:10.000 Like,

00:25:10.460 that's what keeps

00:25:11.300 human beings sane.

00:25:12.820 Like,

00:25:13.320 that is literally

00:25:14.240 the basis of our sanity.

00:25:17.240 It is amazing

00:25:18.000 how undermade

00:25:19.600 that point was

00:25:20.400 during the pandemic

00:25:21.160 because it was like,

00:25:22.300 well,

00:25:22.520 you've got to wear the mask

00:25:23.560 because it's for everyone's benefit.

00:25:25.680 I mean,

00:25:26.100 very questionable,

00:25:27.840 but we won't go there.

00:25:29.760 But also,

00:25:30.580 like,

00:25:30.740 that side of it

00:25:31.580 was never discussed.

00:25:32.960 Almost no one went,

00:25:34.520 actually,

00:25:34.840 this is really bad

00:25:35.760 for human beings.

00:25:36.980 Co-regulation

00:25:37.380 is the essence

00:25:38.500 of physical health,

00:25:39.600 let alone mental health,

00:25:40.420 but even just physical health.

00:25:41.900 Like,

00:25:42.060 old people die

00:25:43.000 without touch,

00:25:43.880 without love,

00:25:44.500 without connection.

00:25:45.260 Babies die without this.

00:25:46.660 They either die

00:25:47.820 or if you feed them,

00:25:48.720 they're like the Romanian orphans.

00:25:49.900 They grow up,

00:25:50.760 you know,

00:25:51.080 unwell,

00:25:51.740 psychologically,

00:25:52.920 you know,

00:25:53.140 even if you feed them physically.

00:25:54.520 Remember the Romanian orphans?

00:25:55.380 Yes,

00:25:55.780 I do,

00:25:56.240 yeah.

00:25:56.600 So they were physically

00:25:57.300 looked after,

00:25:57.880 but they didn't have any touch.

00:25:59.000 Actually,

00:25:59.240 there's one beautiful

00:25:59.960 slash tragic story

00:26:01.560 from Romanian orphans.

00:26:02.340 There was one kid

00:26:03.640 by the light switch

00:26:05.200 and there was hundreds

00:26:06.000 of kids in this room

00:26:06.820 and every day

00:26:07.820 the janitor would come in

00:26:08.820 and turn the lights on and off.

00:26:10.540 On in the morning,

00:26:11.400 off in the evening.

00:26:12.260 And as he was doing that,

00:26:13.340 he would just ruffle the hair

00:26:14.440 of this kid,

00:26:15.620 right?

00:26:15.780 And that was the only kid

00:26:16.580 that developed

00:26:17.120 in that room

00:26:17.720 full of hundreds of kids.

00:26:19.200 Wow.

00:26:19.520 just from one touch a day.

00:26:21.000 That's how important it can be.

00:26:22.800 It's beautiful and sad

00:26:23.880 at the same time.

00:26:24.660 And yeah,

00:26:25.080 we're already in a culture

00:26:27.880 which is lacking.

00:26:31.980 That's not even

00:26:32.620 a strong enough word,

00:26:33.960 which is in poverty

00:26:35.400 of human touch

00:26:36.960 and connection

00:26:37.660 and community.

00:26:39.000 We're in poverty

00:26:39.740 when it comes to community

00:26:40.760 in this culture

00:26:41.320 compared to our actual ancestors

00:26:43.360 who grew up in.

00:26:44.360 And I won't idealize them,

00:26:45.780 but one thing

00:26:46.880 most tribal communities

00:26:48.080 did have

00:26:48.580 is co-regulation.

00:26:50.700 And then with that ritual,

00:26:53.580 you know,

00:26:54.000 with that,

00:26:55.220 like one of my students

00:26:55.980 was saying the other day,

00:26:56.740 why do I feel

00:26:57.780 like an imposter?

00:26:59.340 And I'm like,

00:26:59.780 because the whole village

00:27:00.600 hasn't initiated you

00:27:01.680 into this career.

00:27:03.160 You know,

00:27:03.500 you haven't had the seal

00:27:04.840 of approval of your elders.

00:27:06.360 You haven't,

00:27:07.340 you know,

00:27:07.700 you're not part

00:27:08.740 of a community

00:27:09.460 that has ritual

00:27:10.400 and meaning

00:27:10.920 and a shared religion

00:27:12.000 and all the rest of it.

00:27:14.680 So that's

00:27:15.540 not having that

00:27:16.360 sends us crazy.

00:27:17.520 Being online

00:27:18.320 sends us crazy.

00:27:19.860 It's like being sat still

00:27:21.360 sends us crazy.

00:27:23.180 When we sit,

00:27:24.180 we gradually

00:27:24.760 lose our feeling sense.

00:27:26.760 You do that all day long,

00:27:27.860 staring at a computer.

00:27:29.680 And social media

00:27:30.460 is a conspiracy.

00:27:32.560 I mean,

00:27:32.800 it is.

00:27:33.760 It's literally designed

00:27:35.260 to keep us anxious

00:27:36.460 so we spend more

00:27:37.940 on the advertising.

00:27:39.260 It's not,

00:27:39.680 you know,

00:27:39.900 someone's evil.

00:27:40.640 They just want to make more money.

00:27:41.800 Right?

00:27:42.500 So it is a conspiracy

00:27:43.860 in that it's designed

00:27:45.100 to put us

00:27:45.640 into fight or flight.

00:27:46.820 So it's designed

00:27:47.740 to put us

00:27:48.260 into a trauma state

00:27:49.080 essentially.

00:27:49.780 Yeah.

00:27:50.180 Yeah,

00:27:50.380 because if we're

00:27:50.760 in that agitated

00:27:51.360 fight or flight state,

00:27:52.120 we keep scrolling,

00:27:52.920 we keep looking,

00:27:53.560 we feel like,

00:27:55.060 you know,

00:27:55.300 did you ever have

00:27:55.740 those experiences

00:27:56.080 where you have

00:27:56.520 a really nice weekend

00:27:57.260 with your wife

00:27:57.860 or your friends

00:27:58.540 and you're in nature

00:27:59.320 and you have lots of touch

00:28:00.500 and everything's great.

00:28:01.240 you don't feel like

00:28:02.060 checking your phone

00:28:02.760 because you're not anxious.

00:28:04.760 It's also been,

00:28:06.180 someone told me,

00:28:07.680 I think it's the work

00:28:08.380 of BF Skinner

00:28:09.300 that social media

00:28:11.580 has been designed

00:28:12.680 with the same principles

00:28:13.820 as the gambling industry.

00:28:15.260 Yeah,

00:28:15.480 or print conditioning.

00:28:16.500 So it's reward

00:28:17.300 and punishment, right?

00:28:18.140 It's there to give you

00:28:18.940 little dopamine hits, right?

00:28:20.620 Yeah.

00:28:21.040 And once you start

00:28:22.920 chasing that dopamine,

00:28:24.660 it's drug-like.

00:28:25.580 So you get that hit

00:28:27.180 and then you want

00:28:27.920 ever-increasing amounts

00:28:29.480 of dopamine

00:28:30.040 and what used to get you high

00:28:32.380 now no longer does.

00:28:34.240 So you're wanting

00:28:34.900 the bigger and bigger rush.

00:28:36.460 Well, I'm in long-term recovery.

00:28:37.780 I'm 17 years sober, right?

00:28:39.500 And, you know,

00:28:40.600 it's very much like drug addiction

00:28:42.620 as someone who's been

00:28:44.000 in alcohol and drug addiction

00:28:45.040 and needing that hit.

00:28:47.260 I remember what it's like

00:28:48.040 to wake up

00:28:48.620 and look at Facebook

00:28:49.360 straight away.

00:28:50.420 You know,

00:28:50.640 I have to put some boundaries

00:28:51.620 around myself around that.

00:28:53.140 You know,

00:28:53.340 it's actually quite nice

00:28:54.120 I don't get signal here.

00:28:55.460 So for the last two hours

00:28:56.760 I haven't checked my phone.

00:28:57.780 It's kind of a relief.

00:28:59.040 And I'm not against technology.

00:29:00.740 I, you know,

00:29:01.420 have a YouTube channel,

00:29:02.400 a podcast.

00:29:02.800 I think it's amazing

00:29:03.700 that you guys can

00:29:04.780 reach who you reach,

00:29:06.740 you know,

00:29:07.320 without being a big studio

00:29:08.480 subject to corporate

00:29:09.660 interests and things.

00:29:10.960 So it's fantastic technology

00:29:12.700 and use with care.

00:29:14.980 Use with care.

00:29:15.720 And that goes for

00:29:16.580 computer games,

00:29:17.840 porn,

00:29:19.120 just sitting emailing all day,

00:29:21.300 but particularly something

00:29:22.300 like porn or computer games

00:29:23.680 or social media

00:29:24.380 that's been designed

00:29:25.140 with that conditioning

00:29:25.940 in mind.

00:29:27.000 So we're disembodied

00:29:28.100 and social media

00:29:29.600 is a part of that.

00:29:30.860 People lose their empathy

00:29:32.380 when they're disembodied

00:29:33.460 and basically become

00:29:34.440 temporarily psychopathic.

00:29:36.300 You know what?

00:29:37.200 That is such a good way

00:29:38.300 of putting it

00:29:38.880 because

00:29:39.320 I actually

00:29:42.240 use my social media

00:29:44.820 a lot less

00:29:45.940 the bigger it gets.

00:29:47.600 Yeah.

00:29:47.880 Well,

00:29:48.000 you think,

00:29:48.380 you think it'd be the opposite.

00:29:49.380 I'd be like,

00:29:49.860 oh,

00:29:50.040 I'm on this number now.

00:29:51.140 Oh,

00:29:51.280 let's keep feeding the machine.

00:29:52.920 And increasingly,

00:29:53.620 I'm just like,

00:29:55.040 well,

00:29:55.280 I don't like this,

00:29:57.100 the way we're having

00:29:58.020 these discussions.

00:29:59.460 And

00:29:59.900 it seems to me

00:30:01.520 that,

00:30:01.800 you know,

00:30:01.980 we recently,

00:30:04.020 it's like

00:30:04.960 there's a sense

00:30:06.680 that

00:30:07.080 it doesn't matter

00:30:09.580 how angry,

00:30:11.320 how rude,

00:30:12.960 how destructive

00:30:14.820 your approach is.

00:30:16.200 It can never be

00:30:17.160 angry,

00:30:17.760 destructive,

00:30:18.260 or rude enough

00:30:18.840 for a lot of people.

00:30:20.720 And this temporary psychopathy,

00:30:22.760 I mean,

00:30:23.140 that's a very good way

00:30:24.100 of describing it.

00:30:25.140 I mean,

00:30:25.420 that is the symptom

00:30:26.520 of our culture generally.

00:30:27.780 Some cultures,

00:30:28.500 like I'd say,

00:30:29.020 Russian culture even more,

00:30:30.820 you know,

00:30:31.020 it's more endemic

00:30:31.800 in some places

00:30:32.560 and,

00:30:33.040 you know,

00:30:33.200 it's technologically enhanced here.

00:30:34.760 It's trauma somewhere else.

00:30:37.080 And

00:30:37.320 essentially,

00:30:38.380 when you're not tuned

00:30:39.120 into your body,

00:30:39.660 when you've not got

00:30:40.240 that natural empathic resonance,

00:30:42.100 like,

00:30:43.040 if I were to imagine

00:30:43.780 a kitten,

00:30:44.360 right?

00:30:44.580 Fluffy kitten.

00:30:45.380 If I were to take that kitten

00:30:46.380 and strangle it to death,

00:30:48.080 any normal person

00:30:48.980 would have a physical response.

00:30:50.500 They'd go,

00:30:50.860 gross,

00:30:52.060 right?

00:30:52.920 So,

00:30:53.380 but if we're not in our bodies,

00:30:54.920 if we're cut off from ourself,

00:30:56.320 whether it's through big trauma

00:30:57.380 or being on the internet all day

00:30:58.660 or whatever it is,

00:30:59.800 that natural resonance

00:31:00.900 isn't there.

00:31:02.160 And that is very dangerous.

00:31:03.300 And you see behavior

00:31:04.160 on the internet,

00:31:04.900 you go,

00:31:06.140 would you talk to someone

00:31:06.980 in a pub like this?

00:31:07.760 Like,

00:31:07.980 one of my rules is

00:31:08.880 don't accept behavior

00:31:09.940 that would get you a punch

00:31:10.800 in the head in the pub.

00:31:12.160 Right?

00:31:12.640 Like,

00:31:13.000 people don't,

00:31:14.480 do that normally.

00:31:15.260 And actually in life,

00:31:16.120 most people are right.

00:31:17.100 Most people are pretty centrist.

00:31:18.640 They're pretty reasonable.

00:31:20.300 You know,

00:31:20.620 you go on the internet

00:31:21.280 for five minutes,

00:31:21.980 it looks like there's

00:31:22.660 this huge,

00:31:23.280 massive culture war.

00:31:24.420 And I think

00:31:24.800 that while that has

00:31:26.620 come into real life

00:31:28.440 to some degree,

00:31:29.940 I got,

00:31:30.300 I got banned from a cafe recently

00:31:32.380 because they overheard me speaking

00:31:33.620 and didn't like something

00:31:34.480 I was saying

00:31:35.140 and they banned me

00:31:37.000 from the cafe.

00:31:37.560 I'm like,

00:31:37.780 look,

00:31:37.880 it's not Facebook,

00:31:38.660 mate.

00:31:39.520 Do you know what I mean?

00:31:40.140 You're not unfriending me here.

00:31:41.360 Like,

00:31:41.460 we can have a conversation.

00:31:42.580 What was the problem?

00:31:43.300 I don't think I was saying

00:31:44.080 anything too outrageous,

00:31:45.100 but they didn't like

00:31:45.920 my politics or whatever.

00:31:47.520 And I just remember thinking,

00:31:49.120 God,

00:31:49.240 this is creeping a bit

00:31:50.240 into real life.

00:31:51.300 Well,

00:31:51.440 that's why we are

00:31:52.200 concerned about it

00:31:53.060 on the one hand.

00:31:53.960 On the other hand,

00:31:55.100 like,

00:31:55.400 we had a guest on our show,

00:31:56.740 Sam Harris.

00:31:57.840 And Sam said some things

00:31:59.240 that I really fundamentally

00:32:00.420 disagree with.

00:32:01.220 But that's the point of the show.

00:32:02.500 You could say something

00:32:03.100 I fundamentally disagree with.

00:32:05.020 And people went after him

00:32:07.360 in a way that made us

00:32:08.720 extremely uncomfortable.

00:32:10.100 Strange,

00:32:10.560 isn't it?

00:32:11.080 And I was like,

00:32:12.120 okay,

00:32:12.500 he said something

00:32:13.280 that I think is wrong.

00:32:15.860 I also thought it was dangerous,

00:32:17.220 that way of thinking.

00:32:18.320 I didn't like it.

00:32:19.080 I didn't agree with him.

00:32:20.200 But people will go after him

00:32:21.960 like he is the devil.

00:32:23.760 Yet,

00:32:24.240 when someone on their side

00:32:25.580 attacks someone else

00:32:26.840 with far more viciousness

00:32:28.980 and unpleasantness

00:32:29.880 and whatever,

00:32:30.660 they are more than happy

00:32:31.820 to see that happen.

00:32:33.160 Yeah,

00:32:33.320 and if we're not

00:32:34.260 well-regulated,

00:32:35.740 and that comes from

00:32:36.740 the self-regulation,

00:32:37.760 the co-regulation,

00:32:38.280 the eco-regulation,

00:32:39.080 if we're not well-regulated,

00:32:41.180 it becomes intolerable

00:32:42.580 and everything's

00:32:43.660 a life threat.

00:32:44.620 Trauma sees everything

00:32:45.340 as a life threat.

00:32:46.760 Everything's life and death.

00:32:48.440 And actually,

00:32:49.000 things aren't life and death.

00:32:49.840 We can disagree on things.

00:32:52.020 Who's more attractive?

00:32:52.920 South American mums

00:32:54.280 or East European mums.

00:32:56.340 You know,

00:32:56.540 we could have that debate.

00:32:59.220 But,

00:32:59.600 you know,

00:33:00.820 we can disagree.

00:33:01.740 We can make silly jokes.

00:33:03.200 And humour can come back in

00:33:04.720 if we're well-regulated.

00:33:07.180 Forgiveness can come back in.

00:33:09.280 And being like,

00:33:09.920 hey,

00:33:10.120 I didn't like what you said,

00:33:11.160 but,

00:33:11.680 you know,

00:33:11.920 we can still get on.

00:33:13.220 And I think

00:33:13.880 we look at people

00:33:15.700 being badly regulated

00:33:17.220 and we go,

00:33:19.020 is that,

00:33:20.080 that's their fault.

00:33:21.020 Do more yoga.

00:33:22.000 Go do yoga.

00:33:23.040 And it's like,

00:33:23.740 but society's making everyone crazy.

00:33:25.740 Yeah.

00:33:26.220 You know,

00:33:26.620 and we've lost our meaning

00:33:27.840 in society

00:33:28.500 and we've lost our cultural coherence

00:33:30.300 and we've lost our connection

00:33:32.000 to nature.

00:33:33.280 A little fucking yoga class

00:33:34.800 twice a week

00:33:35.320 isn't really going to cut it.

00:33:37.400 You know,

00:33:37.600 go do the yoga.

00:33:38.760 I love yoga.

00:33:39.280 Yoga's great.

00:33:39.820 We do martial arts

00:33:40.460 we've been talking about.

00:33:41.280 I think martial arts are fantastic.

00:33:42.820 But honestly,

00:33:43.740 you need community.

00:33:44.980 You need friends.

00:33:45.860 You need good relationships.

00:33:47.340 You need nature.

00:33:48.000 You need all these things

00:33:48.800 that we evolved

00:33:49.540 to have

00:33:50.840 and to keep us sane.

00:33:52.400 And in the absence of that,

00:33:54.700 people get pretty prickly

00:33:56.280 to say the least.

00:33:57.260 And we've been fed a lie

00:33:58.720 in that,

00:33:59.320 you know,

00:33:59.620 it's social media.

00:34:00.680 It's a way to build communities.

00:34:02.000 It's a way to find friends.

00:34:03.540 It's a way to make friends.

00:34:05.160 And look,

00:34:05.480 some people do make friends online.

00:34:06.800 I'm not denigrating that.

00:34:09.240 But the reality is

00:34:10.500 it's a very,

00:34:11.200 very poor

00:34:11.980 and pale imitation

00:34:13.020 of what you can find

00:34:14.200 IRL,

00:34:14.900 as the kids say.

00:34:16.240 Yeah,

00:34:16.580 I mean,

00:34:16.880 porn isn't sex,

00:34:17.780 right?

00:34:18.180 And,

00:34:18.620 you know,

00:34:18.880 Facebook friends

00:34:19.440 aren't real friends.

00:34:20.500 And these,

00:34:21.300 you know,

00:34:21.800 I think you can curate

00:34:23.720 networks

00:34:24.520 to make them friendlier.

00:34:25.760 Like we have a Facebook group

00:34:26.860 that's pretty,

00:34:27.580 for our company,

00:34:28.320 that's pretty friendly.

00:34:29.520 And people are pretty cool there

00:34:30.700 because we just don't

00:34:31.360 tolerate anything else.

00:34:32.600 And then,

00:34:33.420 you know,

00:34:33.560 we tolerate different views

00:34:34.860 but not personally

00:34:36.340 insulting people.

00:34:37.580 It's behaviour you prevent.

00:34:39.220 Exactly.

00:34:39.620 We say you can say

00:34:40.800 anything you want here

00:34:41.660 but you can't say it

00:34:42.500 in any way.

00:34:43.060 You can't personally

00:34:43.780 insult people.

00:34:45.620 Certain platforms

00:34:46.640 may be friendlier.

00:34:47.900 But personally,

00:34:48.540 I look at it like

00:34:49.420 going to a dangerous country.

00:34:51.220 You know,

00:34:51.340 I go to Instagram

00:34:52.100 half an hour a week,

00:34:53.120 do my Q&A,

00:34:54.740 you know,

00:34:55.020 interact a little bit

00:34:55.800 with some positive people.

00:34:56.780 Then I turn it off my phone.

00:34:58.020 Sometimes I'll even

00:34:58.580 delete the app.

00:34:59.640 Really?

00:35:00.060 Yeah,

00:35:00.380 I'll delete the app

00:35:01.020 because you have to,

00:35:01.520 I'll have to be there

00:35:02.340 on Wi-Fi again

00:35:03.140 to upload it again.

00:35:04.200 I just,

00:35:04.620 I treat it like a job

00:35:05.820 it's like

00:35:06.340 going to Afghanistan

00:35:07.160 and coming out again

00:35:07.960 kind of thing,

00:35:08.520 you know.

00:35:09.240 And as I said,

00:35:09.720 it can be positive

00:35:10.480 but it's not what

00:35:11.900 we're wired for.

00:35:12.720 It's not what makes us healthy

00:35:13.760 and without a body practice

00:35:17.340 there's real problems.

00:35:19.140 So we're talking about

00:35:19.980 Instagram being like

00:35:21.020 Afghanistan

00:35:21.500 and you have worked

00:35:22.940 in war zones.

00:35:25.220 I mean,

00:35:25.520 the obvious question is

00:35:26.520 what is that like?

00:35:27.600 Because for most people

00:35:29.120 listening and watching this,

00:35:30.380 they have no idea,

00:35:32.320 thankfully.

00:35:32.940 It's a lot of fun.

00:35:34.740 Didn't expect that.

00:35:35.640 It's a lot of fun.

00:35:36.720 If you have deep-seated trauma.

00:35:39.900 I mean,

00:35:40.460 the first time I worked

00:35:41.480 in a corporation,

00:35:42.960 I went,

00:35:43.440 oh,

00:35:43.560 this feels like a war zone.

00:35:45.340 So like the nervous system

00:35:46.800 of the average business

00:35:47.820 in London

00:35:48.520 is like a war zone.

00:35:50.260 I was like,

00:35:50.680 oh,

00:35:50.760 this is familiar.

00:35:51.440 I was familiar

00:35:51.880 from my household

00:35:52.580 growing up.

00:35:53.680 It was familiar

00:35:54.280 from places I've worked.

00:35:56.100 And when I went to a war zone,

00:35:57.000 part of me just relaxed

00:35:57.860 and went,

00:35:58.320 okay,

00:35:58.660 now the danger's real.

00:36:00.080 Now I can actually

00:36:01.160 accommodate this.

00:36:02.460 I can actually do things

00:36:03.280 to prevent this.

00:36:05.300 So,

00:36:05.700 I mean,

00:36:05.840 I've worked post-conflict

00:36:07.020 in places that are actually

00:36:07.860 quite nice,

00:36:08.440 like Cyprus.

00:36:09.480 I don't want to overstate this.

00:36:10.940 It's not like I'm sort of,

00:36:11.780 you know,

00:36:11.960 getting shot out

00:36:12.540 on the front lines

00:36:13.100 or something,

00:36:13.580 right?

00:36:13.760 I mean,

00:36:14.380 going to Lviv,

00:36:15.240 for example,

00:36:16.220 it was anxiety-provoking.

00:36:18.380 And I remember,

00:36:19.080 you know,

00:36:19.800 the first,

00:36:20.380 we're doing a...

00:36:20.960 Lviv,

00:36:21.400 just for people who don't know,

00:36:22.180 is Western Ukraine.

00:36:23.080 Yeah,

00:36:23.340 yeah.

00:36:23.520 So we're doing a trauma training there.

00:36:24.620 It was like week two

00:36:25.400 of the war as well.

00:36:26.720 So the war broke out.

00:36:28.360 I wanted to go fight.

00:36:29.800 That was my first response.

00:36:31.460 I felt this is a violation.

00:36:32.760 This is not okay.

00:36:33.960 And I spoke to a few friends of mine,

00:36:36.020 my friend Alex being one.

00:36:37.020 If you're out there,

00:36:37.420 Alex,

00:36:37.720 good move.

00:36:38.400 And he was like,

00:36:38.920 Mark,

00:36:39.500 you'll probably get shot

00:36:40.500 if you're a soldier,

00:36:41.340 but you're a pretty good trauma trainer.

00:36:43.280 So I said,

00:36:43.740 okay,

00:36:43.960 we'll go do that.

00:36:44.820 So I went to do a training out there.

00:36:46.760 The local psychologists were like,

00:36:48.200 great,

00:36:48.600 we need help,

00:36:49.200 we're overwhelmed.

00:36:49.940 You know,

00:36:50.080 you can do a lot with just training people.

00:36:53.440 And then,

00:36:54.080 you know,

00:36:54.280 the first alarm goes off

00:36:55.600 on the first day.

00:36:56.700 And it's someone trying to kill you.

00:36:58.380 You know,

00:36:58.600 it's a rocket.

00:36:59.460 There's a rocket coming in your direction.

00:37:01.400 And it might be a way off.

00:37:02.380 It might be close.

00:37:03.120 You don't know.

00:37:04.000 And there's that moment of like,

00:37:05.620 shit,

00:37:06.560 this is someone trying to kill me.

00:37:07.920 And I've had that many times.

00:37:09.220 You know,

00:37:09.380 I've had that in Israel.

00:37:10.760 I've had that in West Africa,

00:37:11.980 East Africa.

00:37:13.180 Slums of Brazil was probably the place

00:37:15.280 that left the most mark on me.

00:37:17.580 But,

00:37:18.020 you know,

00:37:18.420 even though I've been to a lot of places,

00:37:20.020 you could see everyone immediately does that.

00:37:22.240 And I just go,

00:37:22.940 right,

00:37:23.080 guys,

00:37:23.520 take a breath.

00:37:24.360 Take a moment.

00:37:25.380 Let's walk to the bombshell.

00:37:26.780 We've got three minutes.

00:37:27.840 Because often people get hurt panicking.

00:37:30.300 And it was pretty uncomfortable.

00:37:31.740 Like,

00:37:31.920 half the training was done in a cold car park bombshell.

00:37:34.860 You know,

00:37:35.400 that was pretty uncomfortable.

00:37:36.800 But then it's also,

00:37:37.660 I don't want to play the violin too much.

00:37:39.160 Because,

00:37:39.340 you know,

00:37:39.800 we're just around fantastic,

00:37:41.580 awesome,

00:37:41.980 wise,

00:37:42.640 beautiful,

00:37:43.100 cool people.

00:37:44.500 Doing something meaningful.

00:37:46.140 I mean,

00:37:46.360 so many people lack meaning in their lives.

00:37:48.940 You know,

00:37:49.180 doing that project.

00:37:50.140 I never felt like I was,

00:37:51.720 my mate Polish Pete's driving.

00:37:53.780 We're delivering medical supplies

00:37:55.160 that we've picked up in a pretty dodgy way.

00:37:57.580 But we're helping out

00:37:58.800 because the hospital was cut off from,

00:38:01.760 it was getting its supplies from Kiev.

00:38:03.100 And at that point in the war,

00:38:04.160 Kiev was surrounded,

00:38:05.220 more or less.

00:38:06.120 So they couldn't get supplies.

00:38:07.240 So we picked some up.

00:38:08.620 And,

00:38:08.880 yeah,

00:38:10.760 we're driving them there.

00:38:11.820 And it's kind of enjoyable.

00:38:13.040 It's like,

00:38:13.360 okay,

00:38:13.500 this is a bit dangerous.

00:38:14.600 And it's,

00:38:15.420 you know,

00:38:15.560 we've done risk assessments and things.

00:38:17.020 I mean,

00:38:17.180 honestly,

00:38:17.420 the chances of getting killed

00:38:18.800 were probably 1%

00:38:20.220 or something like less than that.

00:38:21.740 You know,

00:38:22.500 again,

00:38:22.820 no one overstate it

00:38:23.720 compared to someone

00:38:24.360 who's volunteering on the front lines.

00:38:26.740 But there was meaning

00:38:27.940 and there was community

00:38:29.340 and I was working with great people

00:38:30.900 and they're messaging me today

00:38:32.080 on the anniversary

00:38:32.740 and there's love

00:38:34.180 and there's meaning

00:38:34.860 and there's all those things.

00:38:36.740 I mean,

00:38:37.280 life purpose is huge, right?

00:38:38.800 And I just,

00:38:39.920 I just went,

00:38:41.180 I was made for this.

00:38:43.300 You know,

00:38:43.620 my mum said,

00:38:44.440 don't go

00:38:44.900 because that's what mums have to do, right?

00:38:46.760 And I was like,

00:38:47.660 mum,

00:38:47.960 come on.

00:38:48.740 I wasn't,

00:38:49.500 what was I made for

00:38:50.600 if not this kind of thing?

00:38:51.780 You know,

00:38:51.960 this is the perfect job for me.

00:38:53.840 Especially because I knew

00:38:54.580 a bit of the language.

00:38:55.240 I had a lot of connections there,

00:38:56.960 you know.

00:38:57.600 So,

00:38:58.880 as I said,

00:38:59.400 we did a training

00:39:00.740 and eventually actually

00:39:02.260 the local,

00:39:03.160 some local psychologists,

00:39:05.500 a bunch of young psychologists,

00:39:07.020 tell you,

00:39:07.220 when you see people grow up quick,

00:39:08.820 it's a big difference

00:39:09.520 between a 25-year-old

00:39:10.580 and teaching trauma work in Ukraine

00:39:12.740 and a 25-year-old in East London,

00:39:14.080 I'll tell you.

00:39:14.960 Yeah,

00:39:15.340 the one in East London

00:39:16.140 has probably seen more, mate.

00:39:17.240 Yeah,

00:39:17.600 yeah.

00:39:18.700 Yeah,

00:39:19.120 maybe not.

00:39:20.360 Yeah.

00:39:20.920 Yeah,

00:39:21.460 so the team were basically

00:39:22.720 just a bunch of young psychologists.

00:39:24.560 I went,

00:39:24.820 because I thought

00:39:25.120 I can't do this on my own.

00:39:26.080 So I turned up

00:39:26.640 at the local university

00:39:27.360 and just went,

00:39:28.060 give me your psychology graduates.

00:39:29.380 Who have you got?

00:39:30.300 And then I went to a convent,

00:39:31.920 found a bunch of nuns

00:39:32.740 who could help

00:39:33.220 and they were just

00:39:34.440 psychologically trained

00:39:35.360 and eventually

00:39:36.340 they set up a local charity

00:39:38.020 so they've been doing it themselves

00:39:39.560 and I'm very proud of them today,

00:39:41.660 actually.

00:39:41.900 They've trained,

00:39:42.480 I think it's 13,000 people.

00:39:44.280 Wow.

00:39:44.580 including all the nurses,

00:39:46.840 doctors and teachers

00:39:47.740 in Lviv,

00:39:49.140 which is one of the biggest cities in Ukraine

00:39:50.600 and it's full of refugees.

00:39:52.200 So it's probably the most trauma aware city

00:39:54.380 in the world now

00:39:55.140 and they hope to expand it

00:39:57.460 to the whole country

00:39:58.140 and they've already got people

00:39:59.220 in Odessa and Kiev and places.

00:40:02.000 And what are you teaching them?

00:40:04.040 Basic psychological first aid.

00:40:05.760 So when people have acute trauma,

00:40:08.600 so let's say you're in a car accident,

00:40:10.160 you're going to have,

00:40:10.620 you're going to be maybe shaky,

00:40:11.580 you're going to have that response.

00:40:12.340 There's things you can do

00:40:13.940 that mean that's less likely

00:40:15.720 to become a long-term trauma response.

00:40:17.880 Like what?

00:40:18.300 What can you do?

00:40:19.520 Love people,

00:40:20.420 empathize with them,

00:40:21.300 appropriate touch.

00:40:22.480 There are techniques you can use.

00:40:24.140 I won't get too into here

00:40:25.580 but there's various

00:40:26.340 kind of psychological techniques.

00:40:28.660 Sometimes it's just

00:40:30.300 that co-regulation

00:40:31.780 of another human being,

00:40:33.360 you know?

00:40:34.260 I mean,

00:40:34.540 what would you do

00:40:35.100 if your child fell over

00:40:36.260 and hurt themselves?

00:40:37.120 Pick them up,

00:40:37.580 give them a hug.

00:40:38.140 Right.

00:40:38.620 Totally natural instinct,

00:40:39.880 right?

00:40:40.040 You touch,

00:40:40.960 I mean,

00:40:41.220 obviously you've got to be careful

00:40:41.980 with touch,

00:40:42.360 it's not always

00:40:42.840 the appropriate thing to do.

00:40:45.020 Bit of love,

00:40:45.820 bit of attention,

00:40:46.820 listening to people sometimes

00:40:48.340 and being around them,

00:40:50.680 giving them some advice,

00:40:51.780 signposting them

00:40:52.560 to useful resources

00:40:53.480 so instead of going

00:40:54.220 to get drunk,

00:40:54.820 they go to a psychologist

00:40:55.700 or whatever, yeah?

00:40:56.900 So psychological first aid,

00:40:58.420 and then it's just

00:40:58.920 psychological education.

00:41:00.600 So trauma's different

00:41:01.940 from sort of physical illness

00:41:03.340 and actually knowing about it

00:41:04.760 really helps.

00:41:06.120 Like knowing that

00:41:07.280 that's a hyperarousal symptom,

00:41:09.040 and that's why

00:41:09.860 I'm having problems

00:41:10.360 with my partner.

00:41:11.640 So they do a lot

00:41:12.380 of psychoeducation as well.

00:41:14.200 And they work with the,

00:41:15.520 you know,

00:41:15.780 the psychologists

00:41:16.220 who are actually doing therapy,

00:41:17.300 which is a whole different thing.

00:41:18.520 And, you know,

00:41:19.240 I couldn't train people

00:41:19.940 as therapists in 10 days.

00:41:20.960 I'm not a therapist myself.

00:41:23.540 So, yeah,

00:41:24.520 it's brilliant what they're doing

00:41:25.500 and I'm super proud

00:41:26.660 of all the girls,

00:41:27.200 the nannual girls,

00:41:28.240 the nannual young women

00:41:29.420 because the men are off fighting.

00:41:31.220 I'm really proud of them

00:41:32.120 and, you know,

00:41:33.300 as I said,

00:41:33.900 emotional mourning

00:41:34.640 this morning

00:41:35.300 for all of us.

00:41:37.560 Mark,

00:41:38.040 did you get a little insight

00:41:39.380 into why certain people

00:41:41.440 find war zones addictive?

00:41:43.980 Yeah.

00:41:44.560 I mean,

00:41:44.760 I used to.

00:41:45.940 And Ukraine was the first one

00:41:47.320 I'd been to for quite a while

00:41:48.480 because when I got married,

00:41:49.440 I met my wife

00:41:50.280 who's,

00:41:50.740 as an interpreter,

00:41:51.620 in the first part

00:41:52.260 of the Ukraine conflict.

00:41:54.000 Because the conflict now

00:41:54.920 is a continuity

00:41:55.640 of a longer conflict.

00:41:56.920 That's where I met her.

00:41:58.100 And I sort of said,

00:41:58.760 like,

00:41:58.840 I won't do this anymore.

00:42:00.020 And I'd given it up

00:42:01.680 because I thought,

00:42:02.380 when you're married,

00:42:03.060 it's a bit different,

00:42:03.800 you know.

00:42:04.860 And there's an attraction.

00:42:08.560 You feel very alive.

00:42:10.460 So the average office worker

00:42:11.800 in the UK

00:42:12.380 doesn't,

00:42:13.500 isn't on their edge.

00:42:14.160 They don't feel alive.

00:42:15.000 And it was a year ago

00:42:16.460 I was there

00:42:17.020 and I can feel that

00:42:18.320 like it was yesterday.

00:42:19.580 And sometimes

00:42:20.340 in a positive way.

00:42:21.780 But it can take

00:42:22.640 a little bit

00:42:23.040 of getting used

00:42:23.660 to being back home again.

00:42:25.960 Post-deployment

00:42:26.880 or after the event

00:42:28.000 is quite,

00:42:28.780 quite difficult

00:42:29.660 for soldiers.

00:42:30.320 And I've worked

00:42:30.860 with a lot of humanitarians

00:42:31.920 I've mostly worked with.

00:42:33.320 Like Oxfam

00:42:33.940 and Save the Children

00:42:34.460 and stuff like that.

00:42:35.280 And that's pretty difficult

00:42:36.180 coming home

00:42:36.840 because your mates

00:42:37.360 are talking about

00:42:37.900 the mortgage

00:42:38.300 and the football.

00:42:39.620 And you're thinking

00:42:40.140 about dead kids.

00:42:41.860 Yeah.

00:42:42.760 So it's pretty rough.

00:42:44.340 Like the coming home

00:42:45.120 can be shocking.

00:42:46.780 And then

00:42:47.420 the aliveness

00:42:48.380 of being there

00:42:49.380 is in different places

00:42:50.620 is certainly addictive.

00:42:53.900 And I think

00:42:54.540 these days

00:42:55.040 I've sort of

00:42:55.440 got a bit past that.

00:42:56.300 Our next training

00:42:56.920 is going to be done

00:42:57.380 in Poland.

00:42:57.980 I said,

00:42:58.280 you know,

00:42:59.080 let's do the,

00:42:59.600 you can come to Poland

00:43:00.600 and we'll do the training there.

00:43:01.920 But yeah.

00:43:03.520 It's interesting

00:43:04.020 that thing

00:43:04.420 that you talk about

00:43:05.120 the aliveness

00:43:05.580 because we had

00:43:06.760 Dan Hardy

00:43:07.500 former UFC title

00:43:09.060 contender

00:43:10.060 on the show

00:43:10.620 and he was talking

00:43:11.280 about how

00:43:11.840 before his big fights

00:43:13.440 he'd like

00:43:14.520 get his affairs

00:43:15.980 in order.

00:43:16.540 He'd like give books

00:43:17.400 back to people

00:43:18.120 and movies

00:43:18.740 so that he could,

00:43:20.560 you know,

00:43:21.180 like he would go in there

00:43:22.420 a hundred percent.

00:43:24.040 And I think

00:43:24.960 that that's a,

00:43:27.460 I think you're right

00:43:28.540 that so many of us

00:43:29.480 lack that sense

00:43:30.580 of aliveness

00:43:31.160 in our comfortable lives

00:43:33.960 and maybe that's

00:43:34.540 the trade-off.

00:43:35.620 Yeah.

00:43:35.800 I mean,

00:43:35.920 I found it in martial arts

00:43:37.060 in the Western world

00:43:38.100 and that's a very healthy way.

00:43:39.540 My wife and I

00:43:40.080 were going to the climbing

00:43:40.660 wall recently

00:43:41.320 which again,

00:43:41.860 super healthy thing

00:43:43.500 to, you know,

00:43:43.960 have some excitement

00:43:44.620 and adrenaline

00:43:45.100 but in a controlled

00:43:46.000 kind of,

00:43:46.700 very wholesome actually,

00:43:48.520 very wholesome

00:43:48.860 climbing wall,

00:43:49.500 just really good,

00:43:50.160 nice people.

00:43:51.480 So these days

00:43:52.240 I don't feel so drawn

00:43:53.260 to it.

00:43:54.180 You know,

00:43:54.420 it was very light

00:43:55.060 and there's only so much

00:43:56.020 I can take.

00:43:56.680 I mean,

00:43:56.780 I'm not the toughest person

00:43:58.040 and the story,

00:43:59.580 I'm supervising essentially.

00:44:00.860 So there's about

00:44:01.300 a hundred trainers

00:44:02.060 in Ukraine, right?

00:44:02.860 And there's management team

00:44:04.460 and they speak good English

00:44:05.640 so I supervise online basically.

00:44:08.340 And I help out

00:44:09.460 and I give advice

00:44:10.380 and I listen to them

00:44:11.140 and yeah,

00:44:11.480 sometimes we talk

00:44:11.940 about their boyfriends

00:44:12.600 and sometimes we talk

00:44:13.900 about torture chambers

00:44:14.760 and rape

00:44:15.300 and, you know,

00:44:16.020 shit like that.

00:44:16.740 And there's only so much

00:44:17.980 I can take with that.

00:44:19.980 And I know my capacity now.

00:44:21.900 Like I know

00:44:22.520 that I can do that

00:44:23.340 a certain number

00:44:23.820 of hours a week

00:44:24.560 and then I need to,

00:44:26.140 you know,

00:44:26.740 go talk to one

00:44:27.360 of my business clients

00:44:28.380 about their leadership thing

00:44:29.460 that's much lighter.

00:44:30.920 And I think

00:44:32.060 knowing your capacity

00:44:33.100 and this is a big thing

00:44:34.220 for anyone

00:44:34.540 who's in the NGO world

00:44:35.720 or in the humanitarian world

00:44:37.860 or nurse

00:44:38.960 or anyone like that.

00:44:39.520 You've got to

00:44:40.220 be self-aware enough

00:44:41.620 to go,

00:44:42.140 okay,

00:44:42.320 what's my limit here?

00:44:43.540 And you see like

00:44:44.040 teachers will burn out

00:44:44.980 from working in the city schools

00:44:46.140 and stuff as well, right?

00:44:47.380 Yeah, you do.

00:44:48.180 I think as a teacher

00:44:50.000 in an inner city school,

00:44:51.200 the average person

00:44:52.060 has got about 10 years.

00:44:53.380 Right.

00:44:53.680 I think after that,

00:44:55.100 you just get exposed

00:44:56.060 and you see too much stuff

00:44:57.740 where,

00:44:58.720 and particularly

00:44:59.300 when it involves children,

00:45:00.840 it just makes

00:45:01.660 far more of an impact.

00:45:03.220 Obviously,

00:45:03.620 when it happens

00:45:04.180 to an adult

00:45:04.620 that is terrible

00:45:05.220 and awful.

00:45:06.060 It's rough for kids,

00:45:06.920 so.

00:45:07.280 Yeah,

00:45:07.480 but with a kid

00:45:08.200 and when you see

00:45:09.200 what happens to them

00:45:10.280 and what they go through,

00:45:11.440 it really does leave

00:45:13.300 an impact.

00:45:14.520 Yeah,

00:45:14.700 I got sent

00:45:15.200 something,

00:45:16.240 curse on,

00:45:17.300 if people want

00:45:17.920 to have nightmares,

00:45:18.960 curse on children's torture,

00:45:20.480 they could Google

00:45:21.220 and people should know

00:45:23.020 what the Russian military

00:45:24.180 are doing in Ukraine.

00:45:25.600 They should know

00:45:26.080 because some of it

00:45:26.600 won't be on the BBC

00:45:27.400 because it's too dark

00:45:28.400 and, you know,

00:45:30.140 that got me way more

00:45:31.300 than stuff I'd heard

00:45:32.580 about adults,

00:45:33.620 you know.

00:45:34.260 What should people know?

00:45:35.880 The extent of what's going on?

00:45:37.880 I mean,

00:45:38.400 in terms of,

00:45:39.920 I mean,

00:45:40.160 this is,

00:45:40.540 I actually thought

00:45:41.020 that ahead of time

00:45:41.520 and this is trigonometry.

00:45:42.540 Maybe this is the only

00:45:43.300 actual trigger warning

00:45:44.480 you should have.

00:45:45.740 I mean,

00:45:46.000 a real trigger warning

00:45:47.020 is where you say,

00:45:48.440 hey,

00:45:49.180 this could,

00:45:50.100 someone who's watching

00:45:50.900 who has gone through

00:45:52.420 certain things,

00:45:53.140 this could actually

00:45:54.080 put them back in that

00:45:55.760 and, like,

00:45:56.860 that's been extended

00:45:57.660 to mean I'm just a bit upset

00:45:58.980 about your politics

00:45:59.880 or I don't like your glasses

00:46:01.700 or something, right?

00:46:02.780 Right,

00:46:03.080 so,

00:46:03.460 but actual trigger

00:46:04.620 like,

00:46:05.440 I mean,

00:46:06.100 there are things

00:46:06.880 that I go,

00:46:07.560 how much do we want

00:46:08.240 to talk about that

00:46:08.760 in a public space

00:46:09.540 not knowing who's watching?

00:46:11.880 I mean,

00:46:12.200 the endemic sexual violence

00:46:14.300 of the Russian military,

00:46:16.260 absolutely endemic,

00:46:17.900 is heartbreaking

00:46:18.820 and I get fucking so angry

00:46:20.780 when I think about it

00:46:21.680 and obviously,

00:46:22.640 you know,

00:46:22.880 the team there

00:46:23.600 are hearing different stories

00:46:24.640 from refugees

00:46:25.220 and first-hand accounts.

00:46:26.560 This is not made up

00:46:27.460 and the problem is

00:46:29.380 the media have lost

00:46:30.380 everyone's trust,

00:46:31.560 particularly after COVID

00:46:32.620 and...

00:46:33.620 Trump,

00:46:35.100 Brexit,

00:46:35.700 then...

00:46:36.140 Yeah,

00:46:36.260 we've been lied to so much

00:46:37.640 that people think

00:46:38.260 Ukraine's a lie

00:46:38.840 and actually,

00:46:39.580 while the media presentation

00:46:40.860 may be one-sided,

00:46:41.800 there's a reason it's one-sided.

00:46:43.420 One country invaded another one

00:46:45.000 and, you know,

00:46:46.400 some of my friends

00:46:47.000 who are a bit more alternative

00:46:47.940 and conspiratorial

00:46:49.120 will say,

00:46:49.560 is there really a trustee

00:46:50.840 in Ukraine?

00:46:51.280 Yes,

00:46:51.560 there is

00:46:51.960 and I just say

00:46:53.420 people can look them up

00:46:54.440 and Google them.

00:46:55.140 Yeah,

00:46:55.400 well,

00:46:55.560 it's weird.

00:46:56.140 I sometimes get people

00:46:57.400 on Twitter going,

00:46:58.600 if this is a real war,

00:46:59.600 why there's no footage

00:47:00.580 and I'm like,

00:47:01.320 I can show you

00:47:01.900 50 telegram channels.

00:47:03.780 loads of footage.

00:47:04.600 Yeah.

00:47:07.200 Endemic sexual violence.

00:47:10.020 Yeah,

00:47:10.220 I'd rather not go.

00:47:10.960 No,

00:47:11.200 no,

00:47:11.340 I'm not,

00:47:11.860 no,

00:47:12.100 no one wants to go

00:47:12.940 into the graphic detail.

00:47:13.920 I'm just saying,

00:47:14.940 I think people should hear

00:47:16.660 the sort of

00:47:17.940 slightly more generalized version

00:47:19.740 of the things

00:47:20.360 that people are dealing with.

00:47:21.660 Yeah,

00:47:21.960 I mean,

00:47:22.320 so look at the history

00:47:23.320 of what was

00:47:24.620 the Soviet military.

00:47:26.260 So people don't know this,

00:47:27.400 but Berlin

00:47:28.380 was raped en masse.

00:47:30.520 Not just Berlin,

00:47:31.640 women in Poland

00:47:32.640 who had nothing to do

00:47:33.520 with the Nazi occupation.

00:47:33.660 Across Eastern Europe,

00:47:34.680 absolutely.

00:47:35.280 Across Eastern Europe.

00:47:35.940 Millions of rapes.

00:47:36.940 Yeah,

00:47:37.420 yeah,

00:47:37.760 and Berlin,

00:47:38.460 they think Berlin alone

00:47:39.380 may have been one million.

00:47:40.380 Yeah.

00:47:42.180 Just an absolute nightmare

00:47:44.100 and no one was ever prosecuted.

00:47:47.020 You can see YouTube footage

00:47:48.400 of,

00:47:48.840 you know,

00:47:49.180 guys that were on TV

00:47:50.540 in the 70s

00:47:51.200 laughing about it.

00:47:52.260 Old soldiers

00:47:53.060 from Soviet soldiers.

00:47:54.560 So,

00:47:54.780 do you know

00:47:54.960 Solzhenitsyn,

00:47:55.660 he has a whole

00:47:56.380 short story

00:47:57.320 and he's talking,

00:47:59.280 he was very traumatized

00:48:00.480 actually by witnessing

00:48:01.960 a gang rape

00:48:03.020 by Soviet soldiers.

00:48:04.140 Yeah,

00:48:04.540 I mean,

00:48:04.860 horrific stuff

00:48:05.640 and I knew it would happen.

00:48:07.360 So when I spoke to my team,

00:48:08.640 I said,

00:48:09.180 you need to get ready

00:48:10.100 to hear some stories

00:48:10.900 because I just went,

00:48:12.840 A,

00:48:12.980 it does always happen in war

00:48:14.140 to some extent,

00:48:15.300 horrible as that is,

00:48:16.220 but particularly

00:48:16.780 with the historical precedent

00:48:17.980 and particularly

00:48:19.200 with a traumatized country

00:48:21.240 that's already got

00:48:22.280 a lot of numb people.

00:48:24.380 So,

00:48:25.280 like,

00:48:25.640 if it happens

00:48:26.780 in war anyway,

00:48:28.740 but for example,

00:48:29.420 there's very few instances

00:48:30.560 of Israeli soldiers

00:48:31.640 doing that

00:48:32.500 in Israel

00:48:33.440 and there's reasons

00:48:34.660 for that historically

00:48:35.380 and how the militaries

00:48:36.420 are and the accountability.

00:48:37.400 Now,

00:48:37.520 not to say they don't do

00:48:38.140 other things

00:48:38.640 that may be not okay,

00:48:40.080 but that's just not that.

00:48:41.600 It's just not that.

00:48:42.180 And,

00:48:43.400 yeah,

00:48:44.940 certainly the civilian targeting.

00:48:46.680 It's not just the odd missile

00:48:47.740 that's,

00:48:48.340 you know,

00:48:48.860 a friend of mine

00:48:49.420 was in an area of Kiev

00:48:50.320 that was just being

00:48:50.900 shelled by artillery

00:48:51.960 and it was absolutely,

00:48:52.820 totally civilian air

00:48:53.820 and it was shelled

00:48:54.400 for days,

00:48:55.040 maybe weeks on end.

00:48:55.920 My mother-in-law

00:48:58.160 was in a town

00:48:59.980 far away

00:49:00.800 from the front line

00:49:02.140 and was doing a shopping

00:49:03.300 and the shopping centre

00:49:05.540 opposite was blown up

00:49:06.560 and,

00:49:06.820 you know,

00:49:06.920 an old lady jumped on her

00:49:07.940 and stopped her getting killed

00:49:08.940 and she ended up

00:49:10.120 having dust covered in her

00:49:11.260 and,

00:49:11.740 you know,

00:49:11.920 there's a picture of a pram

00:49:13.520 with a child's foot

00:49:14.640 next to the pram

00:49:15.640 and that was just out,

00:49:16.880 that was literally

00:49:17.500 20 metres

00:49:19.060 from where

00:49:19.580 my mother-in-law was.

00:49:21.340 You know,

00:49:21.500 so these are

00:49:21.860 first-hand accounts

00:49:22.680 we're talking about here,

00:49:23.480 you know,

00:49:24.260 and,

00:49:24.700 yeah,

00:49:26.020 maybe there was

00:49:26.620 a military meeting

00:49:27.520 at the back of the shopping centre

00:49:28.640 someone had said

00:49:29.260 or something like this

00:49:29.980 but the civilian targeting

00:49:31.760 is absolutely clear

00:49:33.220 what's going on.

00:49:34.400 It's a terrorising

00:49:35.820 and it's a genocide.

00:49:37.100 It's not,

00:49:38.540 you're having a war

00:49:39.440 and in war,

00:49:40.220 you know,

00:49:40.520 sometimes you break eggs

00:49:41.320 to make omelettes

00:49:41.860 kind of thing.

00:49:42.280 It's not that.

00:49:42.960 It's not that at all.

00:49:44.180 So the civilian targeting

00:49:45.280 would be another one.

00:49:47.320 You know,

00:49:47.640 what goes on

00:49:48.340 every time

00:49:48.720 they push back

00:49:50.220 the Russians

00:49:50.700 and Butcher

00:49:51.700 was the first time

00:49:52.480 my team before

00:49:53.680 and after Butcher

00:49:54.380 was two different.

00:49:55.700 It was kids

00:49:56.300 and then it was adults

00:49:57.100 in that team

00:49:57.720 after Butcher

00:49:58.300 and that's because

00:50:00.500 it was the first time

00:50:01.160 Russians were pushed back

00:50:02.040 and then they discover things

00:50:03.180 and Butcher was tiny

00:50:04.260 compared to things since.

00:50:06.320 So what's going on

00:50:07.480 behind the lines

00:50:08.200 kids being abducted

00:50:09.500 and taken to Russia

00:50:10.340 I don't know

00:50:11.000 but every time

00:50:12.460 that line is pushed back

00:50:13.640 and,

00:50:14.860 you know,

00:50:15.020 that seems to be

00:50:15.740 God willing

00:50:16.180 the Ukrainian military

00:50:16.960 is doing a great job.

00:50:18.980 I mean,

00:50:19.680 you know,

00:50:20.000 Putin is losing

00:50:22.020 and the Russian military

00:50:24.660 is incompetent

00:50:26.320 despite still being

00:50:27.180 very dangerous.

00:50:28.920 It's not my expertise

00:50:29.940 to talk about

00:50:30.560 military matters.

00:50:33.420 However,

00:50:34.100 you know,

00:50:34.460 Putin increasingly

00:50:35.300 to me

00:50:35.720 looks like a weak old man

00:50:37.000 and

00:50:38.280 as he is pushed back

00:50:41.020 we will see the extent

00:50:42.080 of some of these atrocities

00:50:43.200 because most of the land

00:50:44.600 that was taken,

00:50:45.160 a lot of the land

00:50:45.740 that was taken

00:50:46.180 is still there.

00:50:46.840 And so what do you do

00:50:49.420 with a population

00:50:50.720 like that

00:50:51.740 where

00:50:52.880 awful,

00:50:54.560 terrible things

00:50:55.400 like the events

00:50:56.840 and the acts

00:50:57.660 that you have spoken about

00:50:59.060 what do you do

00:51:01.120 after the event

00:51:01.940 to create

00:51:03.220 some kind of healing?

00:51:05.220 Yeah,

00:51:05.760 it's a good question.

00:51:06.380 I mean,

00:51:06.520 what normally happens

00:51:07.280 is it doesn't heal

00:51:08.200 and then it just repeats.

00:51:09.360 So you see

00:51:09.480 the Middle East,

00:51:10.840 Russia

00:51:11.100 is a case study of that, right?

00:51:12.460 Well, actually,

00:51:12.940 I was going to ask you this

00:51:14.000 not to interrupt

00:51:14.940 your train of thought

00:51:15.560 but you've alluded repeatedly

00:51:17.640 that Eastern Europe

00:51:18.620 is a part of the world

00:51:20.040 that people

00:51:20.960 carry a lot of trauma

00:51:23.280 and one of the things

00:51:24.180 I remember

00:51:24.500 there's a Russian psychologist

00:51:25.680 whose name I won't remember now

00:51:26.900 who talks about

00:51:28.020 how Russia

00:51:28.600 is one of the countries

00:51:29.780 with the highest rates

00:51:30.700 of domestic violence

00:51:31.740 and physical child abuse.

00:51:34.200 Yes.

00:51:34.720 Where it's kind of

00:51:35.640 considered normal

00:51:36.260 for adults

00:51:36.900 to beat their children

00:51:37.780 to get them to behave

00:51:38.780 or whatever

00:51:39.160 and he basically talks about

00:51:40.980 how that carries through

00:51:41.920 and actually

00:51:42.480 there was even more interesting

00:51:43.520 there was somebody

00:51:44.180 who talked about how

00:51:46.100 if you look at

00:51:46.960 the sort of things

00:51:47.760 that people search for

00:51:48.720 in porn

00:51:49.300 by country

00:51:50.720 it shows

00:51:52.440 a very sadistic

00:51:54.060 mentality

00:51:56.040 in certain countries

00:51:57.120 and Russia

00:51:57.540 is at the top

00:51:58.520 of that list.

00:51:58.900 It doesn't surprise me.

00:51:59.880 Yeah, I mean, I know

00:52:00.480 for example

00:52:00.840 Where does that come from?

00:52:01.940 Lack of empathy.

00:52:03.080 And where does that come from?

00:52:04.040 Trauma.

00:52:04.780 And where does that come from?

00:52:06.080 Russia's history.

00:52:07.300 I mean, you know,

00:52:08.120 Russia's been invaded

00:52:09.020 by everyone

00:52:09.660 from the Mongols

00:52:10.520 to Napoleon

00:52:11.120 to the Polish

00:52:11.880 to Hitler.

00:52:13.580 Swedes, Lithuanians.

00:52:14.520 And then on top of that

00:52:15.580 yeah, Swedes, Lithuanians

00:52:16.800 on top of

00:52:17.760 being invaded by the Swedish

00:52:18.580 how embarrassing.

00:52:19.640 And on top of that

00:52:20.880 they've added their own

00:52:21.900 level of trauma

00:52:22.540 with the gulags

00:52:23.660 as you know

00:52:24.360 in your book

00:52:25.680 you detail this

00:52:26.620 the level of trauma

00:52:28.300 in the Soviet system

00:52:29.860 was just huge

00:52:30.620 and endemic

00:52:31.140 and this is a wound

00:52:32.280 that's a huge wound

00:52:33.460 and this is

00:52:34.320 never to excuse

00:52:35.520 any immoral behaviour

00:52:37.160 and if we really want

00:52:39.000 to understand it

00:52:40.000 we should understand

00:52:40.800 that traumatised

00:52:41.620 numb people

00:52:42.660 hurt people

00:52:43.340 because that natural

00:52:45.200 unless we're actual psychopaths

00:52:47.460 which is a very small

00:52:48.200 percentage of the population

00:52:49.120 the majority of us

00:52:50.620 as we were talking

00:52:51.560 about sexual violence

00:52:52.600 there

00:52:52.820 it feels gross

00:52:53.860 right

00:52:54.620 it's not a comfortable

00:52:55.300 pleasant subject

00:52:56.060 and that's a normal

00:52:58.020 human response

00:52:59.100 and that can be cut off

00:53:00.860 through the numbing of trauma

00:53:02.000 and particularly

00:53:03.160 when it's endemic

00:53:04.200 and it's over time

00:53:05.300 and it's multiple periods

00:53:06.560 it becomes a norm

00:53:07.600 so you see little Russian kids

00:53:09.240 they're like

00:53:09.580 they're smiling

00:53:10.460 they're happy

00:53:10.880 they're active

00:53:11.400 and in a few years

00:53:12.960 the affect is gone

00:53:14.740 on the face

00:53:15.320 the Russian smile

00:53:16.620 you know that

00:53:18.180 kind of classic Russian look

00:53:20.020 or in the chest

00:53:21.340 you'll see the classic

00:53:22.160 tension bands

00:53:23.260 it's called armouring

00:53:24.060 in body psychology

00:53:24.980 you know you can spot

00:53:26.700 a Polish person

00:53:27.400 in the street in England

00:53:28.300 can't you

00:53:28.700 because there's a certain look

00:53:29.880 you know in the body

00:53:30.800 so it doesn't mean

00:53:33.460 that everyone

00:53:34.120 who has trauma

00:53:34.780 becomes abusive

00:53:35.620 or unpleasant

00:53:36.380 some people go

00:53:37.160 the opposite way

00:53:37.820 they become very sensitive

00:53:38.880 and compassionate

00:53:39.420 but there's a good number

00:53:41.320 of people

00:53:41.900 who that trauma

00:53:42.840 shuts down

00:53:43.740 that natural empathy

00:53:44.700 on top of that

00:53:45.980 you'll see like

00:53:46.500 the drug

00:53:46.880 you know

00:53:47.320 Russian men

00:53:48.320 die 10 years younger

00:53:49.460 than Russian women

00:53:50.160 because of the rates

00:53:50.840 of alcoholism

00:53:51.640 this is

00:53:52.660 average life expectancy

00:53:53.780 for a man in Russia

00:53:54.480 is 64

00:53:55.040 yeah it's not great

00:53:56.080 so yeah

00:53:57.260 the self-medication

00:53:58.460 side of things

00:53:59.240 is there

00:53:59.640 you know

00:54:00.560 they made it recently

00:54:01.520 not illegal

00:54:02.380 to beat your wife

00:54:03.280 unless you hospitalise her

00:54:04.540 that's a law in Russia

00:54:06.160 you can hit your wife

00:54:07.060 unless you have to be hospitalised

00:54:08.160 that's maybe illegal

00:54:09.060 but you probably won't

00:54:09.680 get prosecuted

00:54:10.440 you know

00:54:11.040 I've worked a lot

00:54:11.540 with the gay community

00:54:12.360 in Russia

00:54:12.800 you see it in the way

00:54:13.980 people other

00:54:14.680 other groups

00:54:15.480 and make them

00:54:16.060 them and us

00:54:16.660 kind of thing

00:54:17.160 so it's in the thinking

00:54:17.980 that scarcity

00:54:19.360 is not enough

00:54:20.480 and you will see that

00:54:22.140 worse

00:54:23.000 all across Eastern Europe

00:54:24.140 but you'll see it

00:54:24.800 worst in Russia

00:54:25.680 and it kind of

00:54:26.760 gets softer

00:54:27.320 as you

00:54:27.760 there was a story

00:54:28.600 that became viral

00:54:29.880 of a woman

00:54:30.640 who

00:54:31.280 the Ukrainians

00:54:33.660 were hacking

00:54:34.080 a lot of communications

00:54:35.080 because a lot of

00:54:35.720 the Russian soldiers

00:54:36.400 were using mobile phones

00:54:37.560 and they found

00:54:38.900 messages from this woman

00:54:40.060 on I think it was

00:54:40.840 a dead soldier's phone

00:54:42.100 actually

00:54:42.480 from his wife

00:54:45.140 saying

00:54:45.560 I know you're going

00:54:47.020 to have sex

00:54:47.560 with the local women

00:54:48.460 but just use a condom

00:54:49.760 yeah I've seen

00:54:50.560 that footage too

00:54:51.300 yeah

00:54:51.680 my wife showed me that

00:54:53.080 she translated it

00:54:54.660 you're a woman

00:54:55.440 yeah

00:54:56.240 what the fuck

00:54:57.180 are you talking about

00:54:57.860 it becomes a coldness

00:54:59.360 to others

00:54:59.980 yeah

00:55:00.300 and the Russian

00:55:02.000 reputation for coldness

00:55:04.440 is not undeserved

00:55:05.580 that's not

00:55:06.520 you know

00:55:06.840 I've got

00:55:07.960 it's like the racism

00:55:09.080 I've got lots of

00:55:09.540 good Russian friends

00:55:10.220 but I do have a lot

00:55:11.400 of Russian friends

00:55:12.180 they used to be colleagues

00:55:13.100 and people can be

00:55:14.480 very loving

00:55:15.020 and caring

00:55:15.560 once you're on

00:55:16.060 the inside of that

00:55:17.120 and the same

00:55:17.980 with my Jewish friends

00:55:18.880 but again

00:55:19.460 that's another trauma

00:55:20.300 thing

00:55:20.520 it's them and us

00:55:21.380 it's your inside

00:55:22.280 or your out

00:55:22.860 every time I go to Israel

00:55:23.760 I put on five kilos

00:55:24.840 because I get fed so much

00:55:26.160 in that sort of

00:55:27.320 you know

00:55:27.680 you've got to

00:55:28.240 eat food

00:55:29.060 or else we're going

00:55:29.520 to starve to death

00:55:30.340 it's a trauma pattern

00:55:31.160 you'll see it in Poland too

00:55:32.920 so you used to see it

00:55:34.060 more in Ireland

00:55:34.600 though it's kind of

00:55:35.240 fading now

00:55:35.820 because the famine

00:55:36.360 was way back

00:55:37.160 so these cultural

00:55:38.700 trauma patterns exist

00:55:39.940 and they run through us

00:55:41.980 even if we ourselves

00:55:43.100 haven't had

00:55:43.720 personal traumatic experiences

00:55:45.540 and I think

00:55:46.620 it is important

00:55:47.760 that we talk about

00:55:49.040 trauma at this level

00:55:50.460 and not let it

00:55:51.800 just become

00:55:52.220 a middle class pursuit

00:55:53.280 I actually emailed

00:55:54.820 a lot of the

00:55:55.380 world's top

00:55:56.120 trauma people

00:55:56.600 we run summits

00:55:57.560 and conferences

00:55:58.260 I know a lot of these guys

00:55:59.180 and I messaged them

00:56:00.460 before Ukraine

00:56:00.960 saying hey

00:56:01.280 any advice

00:56:01.840 and a lot of them

00:56:02.840 messaged back

00:56:03.440 saying oh

00:56:04.000 I don't really know

00:56:04.800 what to say

00:56:05.280 because we don't

00:56:05.820 really deal

00:56:06.180 with real trauma

00:56:06.780 and I was like

00:56:08.580 you've made millions

00:56:09.200 from this

00:56:09.620 it's big business

00:56:10.280 trauma now

00:56:10.900 now there's exceptions

00:56:12.100 to that

00:56:12.600 Stephen Porges

00:56:13.360 is great

00:56:14.220 who does polyvagal theory

00:56:15.480 which I recommend

00:56:16.160 people look up

00:56:17.020 David Buscelli

00:56:18.460 has a technique

00:56:19.500 called TRE

00:56:20.160 which is a shaking

00:56:21.020 trauma release technique

00:56:22.140 he was great

00:56:22.920 he's ex-humanitarian

00:56:24.060 so there are exceptions

00:56:24.820 but there's a whole

00:56:26.300 trauma industry now

00:56:27.560 and this kind of

00:56:28.600 weird middle class

00:56:30.120 far left politics

00:56:31.900 around it

00:56:32.500 where it just becomes

00:56:33.660 a way to sort of

00:56:34.280 beat people around

00:56:34.920 the head and claim status

00:56:36.280 and it also

00:56:37.820 makes people feel

00:56:39.200 different

00:56:40.080 like being special

00:56:41.980 yeah exactly

00:56:42.980 exactly

00:56:43.620 you know nobody

00:56:44.260 wants to be part

00:56:45.260 of the herd

00:56:45.680 no one wants to be

00:56:46.500 part of the tribe

00:56:47.200 anymore

00:56:47.540 everybody wants to be

00:56:49.100 you know separate

00:56:49.960 have their own

00:56:50.660 unique thing

00:56:51.320 and in a way

00:56:52.300 these people

00:56:53.180 are feeding that demand

00:56:54.540 it's capitalism

00:56:55.460 in action really

00:56:56.220 isn't it

00:56:56.640 there's a market for it

00:56:58.340 yeah there's a market

00:56:59.180 for it

00:56:59.600 there's a market for it

00:57:00.340 as soon as we make

00:57:00.920 the victim sacred

00:57:01.840 then it puts it up

00:57:04.520 on a pedestal

00:57:05.140 and Jonathan Hyatt

00:57:06.580 talked about that

00:57:07.200 better than I can

00:57:07.940 I think what we've

00:57:09.460 lost is the value

00:57:10.600 of strength

00:57:11.240 so the Ukrainians

00:57:13.980 I know are strong

00:57:15.800 male and female

00:57:16.720 some strong women

00:57:18.080 I work with

00:57:18.660 some badass

00:57:19.340 I married one

00:57:20.000 some badass women

00:57:20.960 you know

00:57:21.700 and the men

00:57:22.300 and they say things

00:57:23.200 like we love our men

00:57:24.640 they defend us

00:57:25.760 from attack

00:57:26.840 and I'm like

00:57:27.960 oh my god

00:57:28.280 it's so nice

00:57:29.120 to hear something

00:57:29.560 nice about men

00:57:30.480 you know

00:57:31.500 and there's a way

00:57:32.840 in which

00:57:33.400 strength in Eastern Europe

00:57:35.720 isn't mocked

00:57:37.820 you know

00:57:38.660 I mean

00:57:38.860 I'm staying in East London

00:57:39.800 tonight

00:57:40.140 and I'm looking around

00:57:41.140 kind of trendy

00:57:41.780 hipster

00:57:42.360 East London

00:57:43.000 and I just see

00:57:44.080 weak boys

00:57:45.680 dressed like clowns

00:57:47.100 like come on guys

00:57:49.500 you know

00:57:50.040 like

00:57:50.940 it's not a virtue

00:57:52.400 to be weak

00:57:53.400 I think

00:57:54.600 someone gives the example

00:57:55.920 of

00:57:56.280 I read my dad's eulogy

00:57:58.060 at his funeral

00:57:58.680 he wasn't a perfect man

00:58:00.360 but there was love there

00:58:01.280 and I wanted to read his eulogy

00:58:02.340 and I was glad

00:58:03.180 I had that martial arts training

00:58:04.620 when I wasn't a mess

00:58:06.540 I was able to help

00:58:07.360 with the parking

00:58:08.020 and greet my uncle

00:58:09.160 and you know

00:58:10.400 I was glad

00:58:11.180 when I read his eulogy

00:58:12.320 that I could do that

00:58:12.820 I was glad

00:58:13.340 I had the strength

00:58:14.280 even though I was scared

00:58:15.440 to go to Ukraine

00:58:16.500 it's not about not being scared

00:58:17.900 right

00:58:18.220 we need that

00:58:20.380 we need it for life

00:58:21.320 like life

00:58:21.800 I don't know if people

00:58:22.340 even notice

00:58:22.920 but life is fucking hard

00:58:24.140 like life is

00:58:24.760 cancer

00:58:26.020 life is

00:58:27.200 your mum having

00:58:28.340 Alzheimer's

00:58:29.580 right

00:58:29.880 life is

00:58:30.480 if your life isn't hard now

00:58:31.980 great

00:58:32.360 let's be grateful

00:58:33.240 let's be grateful

00:58:34.840 for the

00:58:35.300 we were saying this

00:58:35.980 at lunch right

00:58:36.900 we live in this

00:58:37.580 wonderful place

00:58:38.580 I have a comparison point

00:58:40.020 I'm staying

00:58:41.360 living in this

00:58:42.060 nice little English town

00:58:43.060 in the west of England

00:58:43.740 and every day

00:58:44.360 it's like

00:58:44.680 this is amazing

00:58:45.500 this is so much

00:58:46.260 fucking better

00:58:46.740 than Afghanistan

00:58:47.300 you know

00:58:48.700 immigrants aren't mugs

00:58:50.300 they're not trying

00:58:51.460 to move here

00:58:52.120 because they're idiots

00:58:53.300 they're trying to move here

00:58:54.080 because it's nice

00:58:54.760 and this self-hating

00:58:57.120 has got to stop

00:58:58.060 you know

00:58:58.940 to actually

00:58:59.480 to embrace

00:59:00.560 the western civilization

00:59:03.020 and the strengths

00:59:03.940 we have

00:59:04.480 even if we're not perfect

00:59:05.620 and Ukrainians

00:59:07.060 want to be western

00:59:08.020 you know

00:59:08.940 they're leaning

00:59:09.500 towards the west

00:59:10.080 that's what Putin

00:59:10.620 doesn't want

00:59:11.160 but that's their choice

00:59:12.340 and they're not doing that

00:59:13.280 because they're

00:59:13.780 CIA manipulated

00:59:15.940 or something

00:59:16.180 they're doing that

00:59:16.760 because it's

00:59:17.140 fucking better

00:59:18.000 yeah

00:59:18.920 that's why

00:59:19.620 they're doing that

00:59:20.260 you write about this

00:59:21.140 in your book

00:59:21.640 and it's

00:59:22.760 you know

00:59:24.080 for me

00:59:24.440 what's missing

00:59:25.660 is a practice

00:59:26.920 for that

00:59:27.540 so I'm an embodiment

00:59:28.580 teacher

00:59:28.960 trauma's part

00:59:30.100 what I do

00:59:30.540 mostly I'm training

00:59:31.580 coaches

00:59:32.320 you know

00:59:33.160 teachers

00:59:33.540 business people

00:59:34.300 and

00:59:35.380 they don't have

00:59:36.640 a practice

00:59:37.180 so in Japan

00:59:38.420 kids do kendo

00:59:39.480 kids do martial arts

00:59:40.580 alright

00:59:41.380 some cultures

00:59:41.980 the kids

00:59:42.540 have to meditate

00:59:43.280 or whatever

00:59:43.660 right

00:59:43.900 we don't have that

00:59:45.580 in the west

00:59:45.940 we used to have it

00:59:47.000 with sports

00:59:47.540 we used to have it

00:59:49.120 with sports

00:59:49.440 so you know

00:59:50.020 there's a saying

00:59:50.680 Waterloo was one

00:59:51.800 on the playing

00:59:52.340 fields of Eton

00:59:52.980 because originally

00:59:54.220 you know

00:59:54.520 we invented

00:59:54.940 all the good sports

00:59:55.780 as you know

00:59:56.640 France

00:59:56.880 and originally

00:59:58.540 sports were thought

00:59:59.720 of as character

01:00:00.380 formation

01:00:00.860 and then they

01:00:01.980 became entertainment

01:00:02.880 or something else

01:00:03.680 originally they were

01:00:04.320 embodied practices

01:00:05.120 and I see that

01:00:06.560 re-emerging in

01:00:07.540 climbing and other

01:00:08.560 things

01:00:08.860 doesn't have to be

01:00:09.720 Eastern

01:00:10.100 though it could be

01:00:10.780 and I feel like

01:00:12.260 that's what we

01:00:12.820 really lack here

01:00:13.580 is something to

01:00:14.500 a practice

01:00:15.140 it's called

01:00:15.760 psychologically

01:00:16.260 to build

01:00:17.220 the value

01:00:18.240 to embody

01:00:18.860 the values

01:00:19.660 that are there

01:00:20.340 and you know

01:00:21.940 Ukrainians are

01:00:22.620 fighting to be

01:00:23.420 part of that

01:00:23.960 world

01:00:24.300 and so many

01:00:25.440 people in this

01:00:26.060 country and other

01:00:26.800 Western countries

01:00:27.520 are just throwing

01:00:28.180 it away like it

01:00:28.780 was nothing

01:00:29.260 it's an observation

01:00:30.420 that I had

01:00:31.940 some time ago

01:00:32.840 when I sort of

01:00:33.680 looked around

01:00:34.120 and I see that

01:00:34.880 in a world

01:00:36.020 where men

01:00:37.320 are actively

01:00:37.980 discouraged

01:00:38.520 from being men

01:00:39.580 which is what I

01:00:41.000 think is happening

01:00:41.620 you see increasing

01:00:43.640 numbers of young

01:00:44.740 men going to the

01:00:45.480 gym to get buff

01:00:46.340 to look

01:00:47.180 the impersonation

01:00:48.720 of manhood

01:00:49.460 and I don't

01:00:50.740 I mean

01:00:51.520 some people

01:00:52.120 will be insulted

01:00:52.800 by that description

01:00:53.760 and like most

01:00:54.520 of the guys

01:00:54.900 over there

01:00:55.320 behind the scenes

01:00:56.000 they're all

01:00:56.280 good looking boys

01:00:56.920 yeah

01:00:57.220 but there is

01:00:59.960 to me

01:01:00.900 it's a displacement

01:01:01.960 effect

01:01:02.940 where to me

01:01:04.520 what strength

01:01:06.020 what you're talking

01:01:06.860 about strength

01:01:07.440 that's not about

01:01:08.300 being 6'2

01:01:09.520 and having big guns

01:01:10.940 it's about

01:01:11.760 mental resilience

01:01:12.800 it's about

01:01:13.760 a willingness

01:01:14.260 to stand up

01:01:15.020 for things

01:01:15.360 you believe in

01:01:15.980 it's about

01:01:16.920 a combination

01:01:17.980 of traits

01:01:18.860 that used

01:01:19.600 to be

01:01:19.920 as you say

01:01:20.420 considered

01:01:20.960 like necessary

01:01:22.020 and important

01:01:22.960 and are appreciated

01:01:24.080 by the way

01:01:24.600 by women

01:01:25.140 in society

01:01:25.940 right

01:01:26.520 and it can be

01:01:27.740 built in the gym

01:01:28.520 because you can

01:01:29.620 go to the gym

01:01:30.220 and face hardship

01:01:31.260 and you can go

01:01:32.160 to the gym

01:01:32.600 you can go to the gym

01:01:33.440 to look nice

01:01:34.100 right

01:01:34.400 to look like

01:01:35.360 some magazine

01:01:35.920 says you should

01:01:36.580 look right

01:01:37.120 but you can be

01:01:38.040 in the gym

01:01:38.360 going okay

01:01:38.860 I'm here

01:01:39.300 for my discipline

01:01:40.020 and this is

01:01:40.840 you know

01:01:41.160 to do something

01:01:41.880 difficult

01:01:42.340 whether it's

01:01:43.360 the problem

01:01:43.620 with western life

01:01:44.360 now is it's too easy

01:01:45.140 so it makes us weak

01:01:46.640 right

01:01:46.860 it's a very simple

01:01:47.580 problem we have

01:01:48.980 it's a nice problem

01:01:49.880 to have

01:01:50.160 so cold showers

01:01:51.720 I take cold showers

01:01:52.620 you know

01:01:53.920 because it's difficult

01:01:54.660 right

01:01:55.360 and you make yourself

01:01:56.080 do it

01:01:56.280 the same

01:01:56.560 I lift weights

01:01:57.460 but the same

01:01:58.340 with meditating

01:01:58.860 you know

01:01:59.080 I sit quietly

01:02:00.300 with myself

01:02:00.940 that's not easy

01:02:02.200 I mean I did a lot

01:02:02.980 of martial arts

01:02:03.560 before I went

01:02:04.180 on a meditation retreat

01:02:05.140 and five days

01:02:06.520 of silence

01:02:07.160 I mean you know

01:02:07.660 from an Irish background

01:02:08.580 that was fucking

01:02:09.200 a bit much

01:02:10.100 you know

01:02:10.380 so there's that

01:02:11.320 and then I talked

01:02:12.280 to you

01:02:12.500 saying to Francis

01:02:13.560 earlier

01:02:13.980 my students

01:02:14.960 we send them

01:02:15.560 to yoga

01:02:16.060 martial arts

01:02:16.960 conscious dance

01:02:17.660 but we also

01:02:18.640 send them to improv

01:02:19.260 and that's one

01:02:20.400 of the things

01:02:20.800 they're most scared

01:02:21.520 of

01:02:21.780 because that's

01:02:23.400 a social humiliation

01:02:24.640 potentially

01:02:25.340 you know

01:02:26.060 that takes real courage

01:02:27.200 I think it's why

01:02:27.800 we respect the Joe Rogans

01:02:29.280 and you know

01:02:29.800 the different comedians

01:02:30.840 who are in this space

01:02:32.400 because we know

01:02:33.120 the verbal strength

01:02:34.920 and the emotional strength

01:02:36.380 to stand up

01:02:37.800 and tell a joke

01:02:38.520 and it may be

01:02:39.180 full flat

01:02:39.880 you know

01:02:40.700 that's another

01:02:41.140 kind of strength

01:02:41.780 so yeah

01:02:42.720 you can work out

01:02:43.560 in the gym

01:02:44.060 but you can work out

01:02:45.060 in the dojo

01:02:45.640 you can work out

01:02:46.420 in the meditation cushion

01:02:47.240 there's lots of ways

01:02:48.140 to be

01:02:48.720 you know

01:02:49.600 back to the beginning

01:02:50.260 of the story right

01:02:51.040 these are the strengths

01:02:52.080 that I didn't have

01:02:53.320 as a 17 year old

01:02:55.320 who'd read every book

01:02:56.160 in the library

01:02:56.820 you know

01:02:57.740 Wikipedia isn't solving

01:02:58.920 all the world's problems

01:02:59.900 we don't need more information

01:03:02.080 you can get your phone out

01:03:02.960 and have all the information

01:03:03.720 you want

01:03:04.220 but how are we training

01:03:05.240 ourselves

01:03:05.760 and we need to

01:03:07.280 because you know

01:03:08.320 if Ukraine isn't coming

01:03:09.640 to the door now

01:03:10.460 and it might

01:03:11.440 but if a war

01:03:12.780 isn't coming to the door

01:03:13.620 cancer is

01:03:14.500 or divorce is

01:03:15.500 or your kid could get ill

01:03:17.420 god forbid

01:03:18.040 or do you know

01:03:19.080 what I mean

01:03:19.480 it's like something's

01:03:20.380 coming to the door

01:03:20.980 life happens

01:03:21.240 life happens man

01:03:22.660 so it's like

01:03:24.140 if

01:03:24.780 being weak

01:03:25.940 is actually irresponsible

01:03:26.900 being weak

01:03:28.860 makes you a liability

01:03:29.780 to the tribe

01:03:30.560 what does it mean

01:03:31.120 to be weak

01:03:31.680 to not be able

01:03:33.220 to handle

01:03:34.620 adversity

01:03:35.360 and I don't

01:03:36.600 necessarily

01:03:36.940 I think there's levels

01:03:37.860 of it right

01:03:38.480 so there's a physical strength

01:03:40.160 and maybe if you're

01:03:41.000 80 years old

01:03:41.640 you don't have that

01:03:42.360 but when you're 80

01:03:43.360 you might have a lot

01:03:44.000 of emotional strength

01:03:44.860 yeah the person

01:03:46.240 that can read the eulogy

01:03:47.660 the person that can

01:03:49.420 talk to their friend

01:03:50.720 who's been sexually assaulted

01:03:52.020 and actually be with her

01:03:53.260 when you're hearing things

01:03:54.680 you don't want to hear

01:03:55.280 yeah

01:03:56.240 the person that can

01:03:57.520 just get up in the morning

01:03:58.660 and go to work

01:03:59.600 because they've got

01:04:00.860 put food on the table

01:04:02.460 that kind of resilience

01:04:03.380 there's layers to it right

01:04:04.940 so physical I think

01:04:07.080 is part of that

01:04:07.760 to be relatively healthy

01:04:08.960 I think is a helpful thing

01:04:10.540 it can be a good foundation

01:04:11.640 I think martial arts

01:04:13.120 are a great training

01:04:14.240 you know

01:04:14.580 if I was running

01:04:15.060 the school system

01:04:15.840 I would

01:04:16.600 like the Japanese

01:04:17.680 I would make that

01:04:18.380 mandatory kind of

01:04:19.200 scholistic kind of thing

01:04:20.300 but just having this mentality

01:04:22.320 it's the kind of weak point

01:04:23.200 in the West

01:04:23.640 that we

01:04:24.140 we have some great strengths

01:04:25.820 in the West

01:04:26.240 and again I'll be the first

01:04:27.540 to tell them

01:04:27.980 but we

01:04:28.360 tend to be a bit cognitive

01:04:30.180 we're not going to think

01:04:32.080 our way out of this one

01:04:33.120 so

01:04:34.080 yeah

01:04:35.220 for me I was glad

01:04:36.140 I had that training

01:04:37.000 doing the Ukraine project

01:04:38.680 tried to pass some of that on

01:04:40.200 and I always say

01:04:41.240 to the people there

01:04:42.760 do your practices

01:04:43.560 you know

01:04:43.980 do your yoga

01:04:44.500 do your meditation

01:04:45.220 do what you can

01:04:47.340 because

01:04:47.860 when

01:04:48.580 if you're self regulated

01:04:49.900 as well as you can be

01:04:51.300 when you're with other people

01:04:52.800 you can pass that on

01:04:53.740 yeah

01:04:54.180 and it's about

01:04:54.900 confronting adversity

01:04:56.460 that to me

01:04:57.840 is strength

01:04:59.080 it's

01:04:59.560 it's being prepared

01:05:00.760 to work on your weaknesses

01:05:01.960 like we've used

01:05:02.760 the analogy of the gym

01:05:03.940 and young guys

01:05:05.760 going to the gym

01:05:06.520 to me

01:05:07.460 it's

01:05:08.140 it's seeing a guy

01:05:09.720 who's buff on top

01:05:10.780 and he's got

01:05:11.820 little chicken legs

01:05:12.960 you know

01:05:13.420 parsnip body

01:05:14.340 is what I call them

01:05:15.540 yeah

01:05:16.000 yes

01:05:16.340 so facing things

01:05:18.160 that are difficult

01:05:19.000 deliberately

01:05:19.740 and systematically

01:05:20.920 you can't just

01:05:22.120 people say

01:05:22.820 oh parenting's my practice

01:05:24.200 that's not a practice

01:05:25.040 because life's just

01:05:26.460 throwing stuff at you

01:05:27.500 I can't say to my partner

01:05:29.120 can you be 20% less annoying

01:05:30.900 because I'm trying to

01:05:31.880 find the sweet spot here

01:05:33.200 you know

01:05:33.440 so the beautiful thing

01:05:35.140 about a gym

01:05:35.760 or a dojo

01:05:36.540 or somewhere

01:05:37.340 where there's

01:05:37.820 kind of that

01:05:38.360 kind of control

01:05:39.140 is we can find

01:05:40.140 that spot

01:05:40.620 that's difficult

01:05:41.360 but not traumatizing

01:05:42.520 like a good

01:05:43.980 Aikido dojo

01:05:44.620 or a good

01:05:45.120 karate dojo

01:05:45.720 they won't traumatize you

01:05:46.980 they will challenge you

01:05:47.940 yeah

01:05:48.660 same you know

01:05:49.320 weightlifting

01:05:49.760 you put a mount

01:05:50.620 on the bar

01:05:51.120 that challenges you

01:05:52.180 and if we're not

01:05:53.780 challenging ourselves

01:05:54.600 then yeah

01:05:55.140 we will be

01:05:55.700 gradually getting weaker

01:05:56.940 and then when life

01:05:57.860 throws something

01:05:58.440 too much at us

01:05:59.220 we will break

01:05:59.820 and we'll not only

01:06:00.900 let ourselves down

01:06:01.740 we will let our

01:06:02.320 loved ones down

01:06:03.100 and that's unacceptable

01:06:04.600 yeah

01:06:05.740 and I don't think

01:06:06.580 we talk about that enough

01:06:08.020 no

01:06:09.040 no

01:06:09.780 we pretend that

01:06:10.580 strength is a vice

01:06:11.700 and weakness is a virtue

01:06:12.600 and it's not

01:06:13.240 why do we do that

01:06:14.400 I don't know

01:06:17.960 I think

01:06:19.980 potentially

01:06:20.900 the emasculation

01:06:21.800 of western cultures

01:06:25.160 there's potentially

01:06:26.440 an agenda there

01:06:27.100 I think we've

01:06:28.680 confused

01:06:29.280 cognitive knowing

01:06:30.280 with wisdom

01:06:31.440 and with

01:06:32.640 skills acquisition

01:06:35.060 so it's a problem

01:06:36.280 in understanding

01:06:37.140 what learning is

01:06:38.280 like the English

01:06:38.940 verb to learn

01:06:39.920 actually means

01:06:40.520 a bunch of things

01:06:41.260 I mean

01:06:43.700 a weak populace

01:06:44.480 is easy to control

01:06:45.340 right

01:06:45.620 if we wanted to get

01:06:46.400 if we wanted to get

01:06:47.140 our tinfoil hats out

01:06:48.080 right

01:06:49.240 we're easily

01:06:50.980 manipulatable

01:06:51.680 if we're

01:06:52.560 we're nice consumers

01:06:53.520 perhaps

01:06:53.920 if we're

01:06:54.400 not in touch

01:06:55.320 with our own values

01:06:56.260 I mean an advert

01:06:57.380 says buy X

01:06:58.320 right

01:06:58.560 now

01:06:59.420 if I'm tuned

01:07:00.360 into myself

01:07:00.980 and I go

01:07:01.360 do I need X

01:07:03.120 can I live without X

01:07:04.160 do I feel resonance

01:07:05.400 for that

01:07:05.720 do I want that

01:07:06.420 so I think

01:07:07.860 it's potentially

01:07:08.440 something to do

01:07:09.140 with the wider system

01:07:10.000 but it's a bit

01:07:10.920 above my pay grade

01:07:11.740 so I think I'll say

01:07:12.520 I'm not sure

01:07:13.140 about that one

01:07:13.760 Mark

01:07:14.960 and on that happy note

01:07:16.880 yes

01:07:17.280 we

01:07:18.500 it's been an absolute

01:07:19.680 pleasure speaking with you

01:07:20.760 actually

01:07:21.440 just

01:07:21.980 it's interesting

01:07:22.940 you mentioned about

01:07:23.760 having a controlled

01:07:24.800 environment

01:07:25.240 because I always

01:07:26.500 get really frustrated

01:07:27.480 when I go and play

01:07:28.180 basketball somewhere

01:07:29.060 and I'm not a good

01:07:30.220 basketball player

01:07:31.040 but if the level

01:07:32.300 is not good enough

01:07:33.260 for me

01:07:33.720 I can't play there

01:07:35.400 because you're not

01:07:35.740 on your edge right

01:07:36.340 yeah

01:07:36.620 and the level

01:07:37.520 like ideally

01:07:38.620 everyone has to be

01:07:39.620 better than me

01:07:40.200 like that's my

01:07:41.300 sweet spot

01:07:42.220 a bit better though

01:07:42.960 right

01:07:43.140 yeah

01:07:43.740 yeah

01:07:44.060 yeah

01:07:44.460 yeah

01:07:44.620 I don't want to play

01:07:45.900 with Michael Jordan

01:07:46.480 I mean I'd love to play

01:07:47.260 with Michael Jordan

01:07:47.880 but I don't think

01:07:48.560 it'd go well

01:07:49.040 but anyway

01:07:50.820 it's been a pleasure

01:07:51.540 having you on the show

01:07:52.320 and the last question

01:07:54.380 we always ask is

01:07:55.180 what is the one thing

01:07:56.020 we're not talking about

01:07:56.940 that we really should be

01:07:57.840 what say you to that

01:07:59.260 first of all I'd say

01:08:00.060 look up

01:08:01.020 Saint Ukraine

01:08:01.800 the charity in Ukraine

01:08:02.980 financially not connected

01:08:04.420 with me

01:08:04.840 independently run

01:08:06.060 if people want to

01:08:06.720 support that

01:08:07.300 thing we're not

01:08:09.780 talking about

01:08:11.020 gratitude

01:08:19.060 we mentioned it at lunch

01:08:21.040 I think

01:08:22.160 I got a bit angry

01:08:24.720 today

01:08:25.040 you know

01:08:25.220 some of the things

01:08:25.860 we're talking about

01:08:26.420 kind of

01:08:26.760 I get my blood up

01:08:27.680 you know

01:08:27.960 and

01:08:29.040 I'm really grateful

01:08:31.660 to live in the UK

01:08:32.540 I'm really grateful

01:08:34.120 we have peace

01:08:34.860 I'm super grateful

01:08:36.500 to you guys

01:08:37.040 I want to say

01:08:37.440 a personal thank you

01:08:38.340 you know

01:08:38.740 like watching this show

01:08:39.640 made me feel less lonely

01:08:40.700 when there was

01:08:41.200 council culture things

01:08:42.320 happening in my life

01:08:43.140 a few years ago

01:08:43.880 you know

01:08:44.720 I'm personally grateful

01:08:45.620 and I think

01:08:47.600 gratitude

01:08:48.040 is

01:08:49.340 the emotion

01:08:50.700 of enough

01:08:51.440 and in a consumer

01:08:53.380 culture

01:08:53.920 where the tech

01:08:55.480 apparatus

01:08:56.020 is set up

01:08:56.760 to make us

01:08:57.760 feel not enough

01:08:58.660 and to want more

01:09:00.000 and to be anxious

01:09:00.920 anything that brings

01:09:02.920 out that feeling

01:09:03.820 of you know

01:09:04.520 what

01:09:04.840 I'm really grateful

01:09:06.180 and

01:09:07.180 that is a cure

01:09:09.300 for a lot of ills

01:09:10.340 so

01:09:11.060 thanks for reminding me

01:09:12.140 of that today guys

01:09:12.920 perfect

01:09:13.820 well thank you

01:09:14.400 for coming on

01:09:15.060 and if people

01:09:15.840 want to find you online

01:09:16.800 where's the best way

01:09:17.460 to do that

01:09:17.960 or your courses

01:09:18.600 or your work

01:09:19.280 yes

01:09:19.720 the word embodiment

01:09:21.380 if you put that

01:09:21.980 into Amazon

01:09:22.660 Instagram

01:09:23.420 Tinder

01:09:24.860 like

01:09:25.460 Grindr

01:09:27.180 embodimentunlimited.com

01:09:29.660 we've got an app

01:09:30.340 we've got a website

01:09:30.960 loads of free resources

01:09:32.040 on trauma

01:09:32.580 and other things there

01:09:33.380 embodimentunlimited.com

01:09:35.300 Mark Walsh

01:09:36.220 thank you so much

01:09:36.840 for coming on the show

01:09:37.580 thank you guys

01:09:38.480 for watching and listening

01:09:39.340 we'll see you very soon

01:09:40.300 with another brilliant episode

01:09:41.260 like this one

01:09:42.180 or a raw show

01:09:43.160 all of them go out

01:09:44.280 7pm UK time

01:09:45.280 and for those of you

01:09:46.020 who like your trigonometry

01:09:47.000 on the go

01:09:47.880 it is always available

01:09:49.060 as a podcast

01:09:49.860 take care

01:09:50.640 and see you soon guys

01:09:51.820 what does he think

01:09:54.060 about people claiming

01:09:55.040 to have PTSD

01:09:56.120 after someone

01:09:57.640 has disagreed

01:09:58.320 with them online

01:09:59.020 and how does their trauma

01:10:00.440 compare with that

01:10:01.180 of people who've been

01:10:01.960 in war zones

TRIGGERnometry - April 05, 2023

Trauma Expert： Why We Celebrate Weakness Instead of Strength - Mark Walsh

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